ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of .... Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the euthorlty of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 49A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 19 APRIL, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Oueens Prinler. Provin<» of Mlltlilobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niak wa Radisson Charle swood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Nor bert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere ln kster Fort.Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 19 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, the Commi ttee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Burrows, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for ln kster.

MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Standing Commi ttee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Committee met on Tuesday, April 19 , 19 83, accepted the resignation of the Hon. Ms. Dolin as Chairman of the Committee and elected Mr. Lecuyer to fill this position. Your Committee considered the Annual Report of Manitoba Forestry Resources Ltd. Mr. Murray Harvey, Chairman of the Board, Mr. W. Jonas, General Manager of the Woodlands/Lumber Divisions, Mr. Paul Demare, Director of Finance and Mr.

Dave Bown, General Manager of the Pulp and Paper Divisions, provided such information as was required by members of the Committee with respect to the company. The Annual Report of Manitoba Forestry Resources Ltd. was adopted by the Committee. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS RETURN TO ORDERS No. 3 and 12 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to file with the House a copy of each regulation filed under The Regulations Act, being Regulation 33, 1982, to 236 of 1982 incl usive. Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to file Return to the Order of the House No. 3 dated December 15 , 1982, on the motion of the Member for Lakeside. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to file Return to Order of the House No. 12 dated December 15, 19 82, on the motion of the Member for Fort Garry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report for the Workers' Compensation Board of Manitoba for the year 19 82. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. D.

SCOTT introduced Bill No. 59,

An Act to grant Additional Powers to Victoria Curling Club Limited; Loi accordant des pouvoirs additionels au Victoria Curling Club Limited. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach the Oral Question period, may I di rect the att ention of hono ur able members to the gallery where we have 11 students from the special class of Windsor Park Colle giate under the direction of Mr. Bourrier. This school is in the constituency of the Hon ourable Member for Radisson. There are 55 students of Grade 9 standing from the Darwin School und er the direction of Mrs. Matthisen.

This school is in the constituency of the Honou rable Member for Riel. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: Also before question period I have a statement to make to the House. On Wednesday, March 9th, during Oral Questions, the Honourable Member for Arthur rose in his place to raise a Point of Order concerning the words spoken by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture in answering a question.

In raising the Point of Order, the Honourable Member for Arthur said on Page 614 of Hansard, "I want to speak on a point of order and I would refer back to Hansard. The Minister has accused me of saying that I said in this House that there was fraudulent activity taking place, that it was I that was providing that information." After several of the members had spoken to the same point, I took the matter under advisement in order to review Hansard.

In perusing Page 462 of Hansard, I find that the Honourable Member for Arthur in his speech on the Throne Speech Debate used the term "fraudulent activity" three times and the term "fraudulence" once, all occurring in the same paragraph. The context of the paragraph made it clear that the Ho nour able Member for Arthur was referring to statements made to him by someone outside the House, and that the 1863

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 Honourable Member for Arthur was not making the accusation. Two paragraphs later, the Honour able Member for Arthur said, "But he is now paying 5 percent or 7 percent of the gross value of that animal into the government coffers that are being fraudulently handled or being mismanaged." In this reference, the word "fraudulently" is sufficiently separated from the earlier paragraph as to make it unclear whether the Honourable Member for Arthur is referring to the same situa tion. Neither does the memb er state tha t he is ref erring to an alleged fraudulent activity.

In the absence of any clarifying remarks, the printed record clearly shows the Honourable Member for Arthur making the charge of frau du lent activity , and the Honourable Minister of Agriculture did reflect accurately the words printed in Hansard. While the Honourable Member for Arthur might well have had cause to clarify his remarks of the House, it cannot be considered a valid Point of Order. ORAL QUESTIONS Bankruptcies - farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: I want to, Mr. Speaker, direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, when the farm community is going through a very difficult time and in view of the fact that well over a year ago this Minister was told by the opposition and by the farm community that the farm community was entering into a period of very difficult times, I would ask the Minister of Agriculture how many farm families or farm busine sses to this date are having the same difficulty that the one yesterday that was in the news, or like ones that were in the news yesterday, how many farms have reached tha t sta ge, Mr. Speaker, in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, unless one is contacted through the department and given that information, I have been advised by financial institutions that there may be upwards to 100 farmers who are in severe difficu lty. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Would it not have been his responsibili ty to do a survey and find out precisely how many farmers are having that kind of economic difficu lty, rather than wait for those people to come to him as the Minister? Would he have not been better, Mr.

Speaker, to have done a survey and precisely tell us, or find out how many people in the farm commu nity are being as hard pressed as those we've recently heard about? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, through the Interest Rate Relief Program, such contact is being made on a regular basis. In fact, we now have on our program, 772 farm families who are receivi ng assistance under that program, who are in financial difficulty of a fairly serious nature. To indi cate to the honourable member that a survey can determine when a financial institution might foreclose on a farm, Mr. Speaker, is impossible to determine.

That is handled by the courts and by the fina ncial institution and a survey as such would not reveal that kind of information. MR. J. DOWNEY: In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that reports are now coming to us that the Minister has intervened in that particular farm situation yesterday, what is he going to do for those 100 people who have either gone thr ough cour t proceed ings, thr ough bankr uptcy? What is he going to do now to live up to this responsibility that he abroga ted in the last year­ and-a-half as Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker? What can those people expect from this Minister? HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I don't accept the statement of the honourable member that we have abroga ted our responsibilit y. The Province of Manitoba through, first of all, the first Interest Rate Relief Program of its kind in this country where we are assisting over 700 farm famili es was impl em ented by this adminis tration, Mr. Speaker. Second ly, Mr. Speaker, a long -term in come stabilization program for the livestock industry, the Beef Program, was implemented in which some $17 million of funds or thereabouts were actually distributed to the farmers of Manitoba. Third ly, Mr.

Speaker, we have now embarked on a long-term Hog Income Assurance Plan to provide long­ term stability to our hog sector. Fourth ly, we have also embarked on additional credit availability through one portion of one lending institution which is controlled by the Province of Manitoba and that is the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. Those programs are now in place, Mr. Speaker. I believe, and I think most people belie ve that the Province of Manitoba will not and has not been able to meet all the financial needs of the farming sector and never has been able to provide such relief. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, the credit needs of Manitoba farmers far outweigh the ability of the province to provide those credit needs, and we are but one player in the situation. We have put forward, Mr. Speaker , as a fifth alternative, an attempt to play, what I would say, the honest broker in trying to mediate and review crisis situations between farmers and their institutions. The honourable member is aware that I have also asked members of the opposition to provide me with some reference and some suggestions as to who in the farm commun ity might be prepared to serve on this committee, Mr. Speaker. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, how many of the 700 that were helped under the Emergency Rate Relief Program did that 10 0 make up that went broke in the last few months? Were they part of the 700 under the In terest Rate Relief Program? Were those 100 farmers that he has indi cated have gone broke, were they part of that figure, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: First of all again, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is misquoting what I have said. I 1864

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 indi cated that we were advised by financial institutions that up to 100 farmers are in very severe financial difficu lty. In terms of whether they will go broke, or whether the loans will be renegotiated, or whether there will be an extension of repayment has yet to be determined, but those are the figu res that we have received from financial institutions. There is, and I will take as notice specifically, the question as to whether or not some of those people who were assisted un der the Int erest Rate Relief Program have now ceased operations.

But I will take that specific question as notice. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister now plan to inte rvene in every farm financial difficulty when a farmer is either going to go broke or lose his business? Is he now going to inte rvene with his staff and with this committee that he's proposing? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that we did not intervene in the situation. What we did do is offer our assistance if it was requested by the three parties involv ed and that is the farmer, the lender and the receiver.

That offer was not acceptable to all parties and we did not inte rvene in the situation. What we have put forward, as I have indica ted to honourable members, is a review panel comp osed of farmers in the Province of Manitoba who could sit down with our staff, who would act as resource people to the farmers, with the financial institutions providing their side of the story to a review panel. The financial institutions have indi cated that they are prepared to co-operate in such an exercise.

We do not intend to intervene in any situation unless there is a desire on behalf of the farmer involved, that negotiations and discussions have gone beyond the point and there is a threat of foreclosure, and there is a willingness of that farmer to come before a review panel and, of course, be prepared to put all the facts before the panel so that the panel can provide advice and look at alterna tives that might be avai lable to save that operation. That is what we are prepared to do, Mr.

Speaker, and that generally has been accepted by the financial institutions and the farm organizations whom we tiave spoken to up to this time. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, when and what type of legislative authority is the Minister going to introduce in this House? Will he provide in writing to the opposition and for the public of Manitoba, the guidelines, what the terms of reference of this committee will be so that we can provide com petent people to assist this government which is crippled and unable to deal with the farm community in Manitoba during tough economic times, Mr. Speaker?

Will he provide that for us, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, yes, we will be prepared to provide the terms of reference to the commit tee. The honourable member should know, with respect to legislation, there is a bill presently being deba ted and in committee before the Parliament of Canada under whose jurisdiction rightfully this matter belongs, 1865 because this matter is national and international in scope, and any measu res deal ing with credit or morat orium rightfu ll y belong in the Parliament of Canada and will be dealt with there. Mr.

Speaker, I have generally given the members the rough description of what the terms of reference will be, but certainly we will provide more detailed work to the honourable members when they are prepared. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: In other words, Mr. Speaker, the Minister is not prepared to do anything in this Legislative Assembly. He is now waiting for the Federal Government to pass the federal legislation so that he can hide under that umbrella and pass the reponsibility on to the Federal Government.

Will he provide, not just the committee, will he provide us and the farm commun ity of Manitoba with the terms of reference for the committee that he's asked us, Mr. Speaker, to provide names for? He said he would provide it to the committee. We're asking for the opposition to have that information so we can provide names for him. When will he do that? Will he truly explain what legislative authority he is going to act under in the Province of Manitoba, not wait for the federal legislation? Further question, Mr. Speaker: What happens if the Federal Government don't pass that legislation in Ottawa? HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware, and he probably should take this matter up with some of his colleagues who are as well debating this bill in the House of Commons, and at this point in time I can't answer what might happen because it is hypothetical. Mr. Speaker, I will provide the honourable members with the terms of reference as I have said, in terms of what authority will this committee be established under, Mr. Speaker.

I bel ieve there is authority under The Department of Agriculture Act to establish such a committee whose powers, as I have ind icated publicly, are the use of persuasion and recommendation in terms of trying to resolve some of the difficulties that farmers are having with their financial institutions. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture in providing us with those terms of reference, as well have his department do something and provide us with the legisla tive author ity that he is presumed to be acting under when he sets up this committee, so the farm community knows, Mr.

Speaker, that it's not a bunch of gobb ledegook that we've heard for a year­ and-a-half? NDP times are tough times, Mr. Speaker, and will the Minister of Agriculture finally take some action and take his responsibility to the Government of Manitoba and deal with a very crisis situation? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that I'v e given him the general authority, that I've been advised by my department as to the authority in which a committee such as this can be established.

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 Mr. Speaker, the honourable member, I'v e given him the reply in terms of what concrete steps we have taken inside of a year-and-a-half in office to try and stabilize incomes of the farmers and agriculture in general.

There is no doubt that there are still many farmers who are in difficu lty, and in fact the reason for setting up this committee has been, because while we hear statements publicly from financial institutions in which they have indica ted that they're prepared to go an extra mile to carry on the farm community and they do not want to place farmers into foreclosure, yet we have the cases that are drawn to our attention where, in fact, they are doing the opposite of what they've been saying.

In order to resolve some of these difficulties we have offered to set this panel in motion and to try and resolve some of the very difficult times that farmers are facing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, will what the Minister is doing and proposing to do in the short term to set up his committee, will that stop the very explosive nature of what is developing in the farm community where there is confrontation taking place, contempt of court possibly in certain situations, will what he is doing stop that kind of activity and take some of the pressure off those farmers who are now feeling so hard pressed because this government has lacked the ability to deal with a crisis situation? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, while I am not the chief law enforcement officer of this province, we have attempted to play - that's what I have said before - the honest broker in the situation to prevent that kind of a situation from occurri ng. Mr. Speaker, I believe that the farmers who have been involv ed in this have acted quite responsibly in terms of their actions in this situation. Although, Mr. Speaker, the matter of whether something is illegal or not is not for me to determine, and we will do whatever we can to handle the situation by playing, what I have said, the honest broker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Minister's many times announc ed programs for assistance to the farm community have missed the target by a country mile and the problem is worsening, and in view of the fact that for the past year we have been pointing out to the Minister where his programs fall far short of meeting the need in the farm communit y, and in view or the fact that on Thursday of last week the First Minister took as notice two questions put to the Minister of Agriculture by the Farm Su rvival Group on Wednesday of last week, can the Minister now provide us with the answer as to whether (1) , he is lowering the equity requirement under the Loan Guarantee Program from 20 percent to 10 percent to assist hard pressed farmers and (2), will he be increasing the level of farm income from $70,000 to $1 50,000 under the Interest Rate Relief Program, so once again more farmers in need of assistance can qualify for that?

HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that I've answered that question . A MEMBER: No, you haven't. HON. B. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, I've answered that question prior to the date that the questions were posed to the Premier, that we were prepared to review the program should we find that the program was not meeting the credit needs of farmers. Mr. Speaker, as of today I'm ;:idvised that we have now already received application totalling approximately $1.5 million to be guaranteed under that program from financial institutions around the province. Mr.

Speaker, the question of whether or not the 20 percent equity requirement for assistance under the Loan Guarantee Program is inadequate; it has generally been viewed, Mr. Speaker, that the equity guideline for the Loan Guarantee Program in comparative terms is certainly not excessive as a minimum for a viable farm operation. In fact, 20 percent equity is viewed by lenders as a level very close to the danger point in maintaining a viable farm. In these terms the program strikes, we believe, a balance between what is judged to be a break point between viable and no n-viable farm opertaions. Mr.

Speaker, nevertheless we are monitoring the program as the applications are coming in to see whether or not further review of that program is warranted in terms of the equity criteria. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, surely the Minister's last answer tells him that he has a problem with the $10 0 million Interest Loan Guarantee Program. He has indicated, Mr. Speaker, that there is $1. 5 million of applications. That's 1. 5 percent of the total portfolio he approved of $10 0 mil lion. Ho w many mor e in dications of a problem does the Minister need?

I might ask the Minister to immediately address the problem of why he raised the equity requirement from 10 percent, un der a program est ablishe d by my colleague, to now 20 percent in worsening economic times for the farm community to deprive farmers who legitima tely have a need of loan guarantee assistance. I might remind the Minister that he said approximately 1, 000 farmers would qualify under this program. How many farmers does the $1. 5 million of applications to date represent, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker , first of all, the honour able member should be aware that the previous program that he is referring to basically had loan guaran tees totalling $6 million over the last five years. Onl y one ins titution played any role in that loan guaran tee program. No one took it up, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is this program - (I nterjection) - Mr. Speaker, it was developed in consultation and discussion with the financial institutions, and as I've indi cated if there is need to review this matter further, we will do so.

I remember so very clearly the Honourable Member for Pembina when we introduced our Interest Rate Relief Program indicating that we will not be able to find one farmer in the Province of Manitoba who would qualify for the program, Mr. Speaker. In fact, his own region 1866

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 in which his constituenc y is in, is the region in which the most farmers have qua lified under the Interest Rate Relief Program, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have over 772 farmers eligible und er that program. We were critici zed at the time that we could find no farmers that would be eligible. Mr. Speaker, up to this point in time, under this program in which some of the institutions are just having their meet ings and in terms of no tifying their br anch representatives of the details of the program, we have now had in place 19 applications. Loan Guarantee Program MR. D.

ORCHARD: I thank the Minister for the information, that he now has 2 percent of the numb er of farmers he projected would be helped und er the $10 0 million Loan Guarantee Program and 1.5 percent of the money committed. When will he change the criterion so that the rest, the other 98 1 farmers, may qualify to take up the other $98.5 million worth of guarant ees? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that this program is here over the next two years to see whether all the funds will be allocated. Mr.

Speaker, when one reviews the beginning of this program which has basically just started, in contrast to the Int erest Rate Relief Program wherein we estima ted that between 700 and 800 farmers would be eligible under that program over a two-year period, Mr. Speaker. That program has taken on those num bers and in fact exceeded the numb ers we had projected, Mr. Speaker.

It would be my expectation that, given the seriousness of the situation that the Ho nour able Member for Pembina has indi cated is that serious, that financial institutions who have generally indi cated, and who have all sig ned up un der the program , have sig ned agreements on their program will use the program as their needs arise and we will monitor the program in terms of how many they are turning down, how many they are approving and the numb ers of applications that are coming through. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, it will be cold comfort to the farmer who receives his approval under this program in Ju ly, after he's passed the seeding ·season without operating credit. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister, under what circumstances he would feel oblig ed to offer the services of a mediator from his department, such as he did in the Payne receivership case. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that we were contacted by the farmer and by the farmer organization that was involv ed in this situation. We were not made aware of it until last Thursda y.

The department had not been in contact with Mr. Payne for other than advice on crop matters, fertilizer and recommendations and weed sprays, and those kinds of information. We have not been contacted by the farmer for financial matters and financial advice. Mr. Speaker, we were asked by the farmer if we would be prepared to use our offices to try and pla y, as I've indi cated, a review role in this situation and we did contact the financial institution involv ed and we did contact the receiver involved.

We did not receive full concurr ence of all three parties, and as a result we were not involv ed in the situation directly. I am given to understand, Mr. Speaker, that the situation is being further reviewed by the lender and the receiver, and that they are appearing in court later today to discuss their matters with the courts. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that one of the people contacting the Minister, which prompted his offering of a mediator was a farmer, can we now assume that constituents of ours in the farming busin ess who are having problems with their lending institution, should only now have to approach the Minister of Agriculture, explain their problem to him and they can expect the Minister of Agriculture to otter the services of a mediator to act as a go-between between the bank and that customer? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, that is one of the roles we see for the panel that is being set up. Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that our staff, in dealing with applications under the Interest Rate Relief Program, have played just such kind of a role to assist farmers in making presentations, in preparing financial statements, cash flows to lending institutions over the last year or more in providing courses to farmers, in dealing with survival. Those kinds of programs our department and our staff have been involv ed with and I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, have done a commendable job in assisting the rural community to try and cope with some of the difficulties they are faced with in the negotiations and discussions. We have been doing that, Mr. Speaker. In this case, Mr. Speaker, we were asked to int ervene in a foreclosure that was imminent. Mr. Speaker, we did not intervene. What we did was, we said we would offer our staff to look at whether or not there was an option. We don't know whether there's an option, Mr.

Speaker, because we had only one side of the story, but we were prepared to ask the institution and the receiver whether they would consider such a review. We did not receive the concurr ence and we were not involv ed in that action. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister's mediation committee is not struck, and in view of the fact that its terms of reference are not yet drawn up, would the Minister, upon the request of a farmer in rural Manitoba with financial problems, take it upon himself if asked tomorrow, to offer the services of a farm management specialist as he did yesterday in the Payne case? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, we've done some work in that area and the criteria would be looked at in this sense - and I will try and relate it to the honourable member as to what I see as the possible situation that we would be involved in - where the farmer and the lending institution have reached an impasse and may have ceased commun ications in an effort to resolve 1867

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 their differences respecting the financing of a potentially viable farm operation, and too, where the farm operating situation has deteriorated to the point where the farmer is seeking assistance regarding the orderly liqui dation of his farm assets, those are generally the guidelin es that could be looked at. I can't deal with the "what if" situation, Mr. Speaker. If farmers come to our staff, our staff and our department is pledged to assist them in whatever way we can in providing financial assistance. CPR - taxes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs. Since the CPR has been given a May 1st deadline, some 10 days away, in which to respond to this Legislature's demand to end their 100-year-old tax concessions, can the Minister indi cate whether they have responded and agreed to pay their fair share of taxes? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There have been discussions with the CPR and myself and the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg some time ago.

As a result of those discussions, there have been ongoing discussions with staff of the Government of Manitoba, the City of Winnip eg and the CPR, discussing that issue and as of this point, there is no conclusion to those discussions. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to ask the Minister whether, since the CPR has already avoided some $10 0 million in taxes over the past century and another $500,000 this year, is he insisting on full payment retroactive to 19 82? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The action that has been . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: Demonstration days are Cabinet days. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. MR. D. ORCHARD: Why don't you have a caucus meeting? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, if I might attempt to answer the question without interference from the noisemakers across the way there . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister has been asked a question. It would be most courteous if members would allow him to make the answer. The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indi cated, discussions have been taking place with the CPR and the City of Winnip eg with respect to the resolution that was adopted during the last Session of the Manitoba Legislature, and I will attempt to bring about a conclusion to those negotiations in line with the direction that was given in that resolution. farm Support Program - review panel MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that spring is upon us and that farmers are going to be on the land very shortly, perhaps within the next two weeks, and decisions are having to be made now with respect to farm financing, does the Minister believe that his initia tive in setting up a committee to review differences over credit is going to result in any action being taken in time to help farmers with their operation this spring? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no ur able Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member seems to intima te in his question that this committee will solve all the financial problems that farmers are having. That is not the intent of the review panel, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Arthur raised the question of an explosive situation, and there may be ways in which a third party could assist farmers in maintaining the viability of their operations and convincing lenders that they should review the situation instead of foreclosing on a farm; that there may be alternatives to that situation.

That is what the review panel is to undertake, to see whether a third party can play a useful role of putting forward alterna tives and examining alternatives, whether there needs to b€i involvement of other lending institutions if the operation appears viable where a financial institution refuses to go any further. Those kinds of options should be looked at by the committee. In cases where there is no hope, Mr. Speaker, the committee would be able to sit down with the farm family involved and basically ind icate, look, financially and viabil itywise, there is no hope.

This is what is open to you in terms of leaving agriculture, because no one will be able to help you out of your dilemma. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, there was no indication that this would ever have the chance of solving all of the problems. Our real concern is, is it going to solve any of the problems, because what the farmers of Manitoba are faced with now is a problem that hour by hour is growing more serious.

My question to the Minister and he didn't answer it was, is the timing of this initia tive - aside from any other consideration on timing alone - can this initia tive possibly help any farmer in Manitoba to get the cash they need to get their crop in this spring? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable member understands that the majority of farmers, as had been indica ted to us, are in reasonably good financial shape. MR. D. ORCHARD: We're not asking about them. 1868

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , let's put it into perspective. Mr. Speaker , we've been waiting for national action if there is going to be national action. The whole difficulty started in our neighbouring province of Ont ario, Mr. Speak er, where there have been explosive situations over the last year. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I haven't heard any concrete proposals from the honourable members. They have, Mr. Speaker, been invited to submit names to myself to serve on this panel. The honourable members are devoid ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . of any concrete proposals to assist the farm commu nit y in di fficult ti mes. We understand, Mr. Speaker, that we are unable to and Manitoba is unable to deal with all the credit requirements of farmers. This panel was not set up to deal with all the impending situations that may be out there at this period of time. It was set up, Mr. Speaker, on request of farm groups, to attempt to mediate some of the situations - (I nterjection) - Mr. Speaker, I will answer questions of the honourable members, if they would give me a chance to answer. Mr.

Speaker, we are told that financial institutions are prepared to go an extra mile to many farmers in extending credit, in rewriting loans, but on the other hand we are also bringing and drawing to our attention cases where they are not prepared to go. There has not been generally across-the-board treatment of the same nature to all operators. All we are trying to do is, if there is an opportunity to get that balanc ed approach of treatment to our farm commun ity, that's what this panel is designed to do, Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, today is the 19th of April.

When will the Minister have his review panel in place and ready to begin work? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, if we have some members - who I sinc erely believe could have an input and I don't represent all the rural areas that they represent - we have asked for input from the honourable members. If we do have some suggestions from the honourable members before the weekend, it is my hope that by next week sometime that panel could be in place, Mr. Speaker. Municipal Affairs Committee - reconvened MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Can the Minister give some ind ication now as to when the Municipal Affairs Committee will be called to finali ze a report relative to earlier submissions received on the Assessment Review Committee's recommendations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, we will be calling the committee together as soon as possible after we have completed studies on all the information that we have received up to this point in time. Mr. Speaker, I might add that we are still receiving briefs almost on a daily basis.

In fact, yesterday I was advised by the Manitoba Farm Bureau that they wish to present a br ief as well, a further brief. So a considerable amount of information has been received up to this point in time. I expect we will continue to receive information. As I have just mentioned, we are receiving some almo st on a daily basis which will be of value to us and to the committee, I'm sure, when we call the committee together. I assure the honourable members that we will call the committee to report back to the Legislature at this Session. Assessment Act changes MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not he is planning on bringing in some legisl ative changes to The Assessment Act during this current Session. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, we are looking at the recommendations that the committee will be making to the Legislature. As far as legislation is concerned, that is a matter of policy that will be announc ed in due course. Beef Income Assurance Program MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no ur able Minister of Agricultur e. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to answer a couple of questions that were posed by the Member for Pembina and the Member for Virden to the Premier last Thursda y, dealing with the Beef Plan for Manitoba beef in terms of the annou nced layoffs of some 25 staff at the packing houses. Mr. Speaker, the Premier generally answered the questions when he ind icated that we do have a Beef Income Assurance Program which will provide long­ term stability to our beef producers and it is our hope, Mr.

Speaker, that we will be able to, through this program, increase the numb er of cattle finished within this province and be slaug htered in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the honourable members should be aware that during the last two years that there have been closu res of packing houses in addition to that in Manitoba in the late '70's, Mr. Speaker. In '81 Canada Packers cl osed a ho g killin g operation.in Montreal, in which approxi mately 12 5 people were affected by that move.

Canada Packers has recently annou nced that this year they are going to close their hog and beef packing plant in Toronto, where it is reported that up to 950 jobs will be affected, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Virden indicated in his questions, and I quote, the question on page 1720, dated April 14th, "The fact that at the present time 60 1869

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 percent of the cattle that are slaughtered in the packing houses in Manitoba have to be imported because of the failure of this government to support the feedlot industr y. " Mr. Speaker, first of all, that fact is ina ccurate in terms of the num bers of cattle that are slaughtered within the Province of Manitoba. Manitoba do es produce approximately 70 percent of the finished cattle to the packing houses and has done so in '81 and '82, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, the numb ers of feeder animals in the first qua rter of '82, that's Janu ary, Febru ary, and March and the first quarter in '83, feeder cattle and calves, have actually declined in movement to Eastern Canada, and we believe that this program is avai lable now to feed lot operators, in that custom feeding is an option that is avai lable to feed lot operators. They are, in fact, attending meetings that the Beef Commission is holding around the province and putting forward their proposals to farmers. As well, Mr.

Speaker, the feed lot industry is preparing a proposal of income assurance which we hope will be presented to the government in the next month or so. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY HANSARD CORRECTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of corrections to put on Hansard. Page 18 25, in the third paragraph, second last line.

The sentence reads "and as such must deport itself collectively and its ind ividual Ministers and caucus members as a government, not as an irresponsible collection of rabble of the left." The words used were "a mere responsible." I would never say that about the government, Sir, they are an irresponsible collection of rabble of the left. That's the first correction, Mr. Speaker. The second correction is in the second last paragraph, on page 18 25, on the left hand colu mn, third last line of that paragraph.

I read the full sentence: "This First Minister is the Leader of the New Democratic Party, period, paragraph, and is slavishly attending only to the" and it said here "chivalrous," I would never impute that to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker. What I said was "the shib boleths of the left, rather than to his sworn responsibilities as a First Minister of the Crown in this province." MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for that correction. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I have a correction as well.

On page 18 02, under Non-Poli tical Statement, they show the name of Honourable S. Uskiw, that should be my own name. In that same

article they refer to Bonita, rather than Benito. MR. SPEAKER: So noted. The Honourable Member for ln kster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to make a correction to Hansard, on page 18 47, of Monday the 18 th of April, the very last commentary on the left hand column. It has under the name of myself, I belie ve it was the Member for Tuxedo, Mr. Filmon. It should be recorded under his name, and not under my name - "In the conflic t-of­ interest legislation why do we have to say what our wives' financial interests are?" I would not have made such a comment, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo to the same point or a correction. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to accept responsibility for that interjection. I know that the Member for ln kster wasn't concerned about that conflic t-of-interest situation. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day I would like to announce a committee change with respect to the com position of the Standing Committee of Agriculture. The Member for Ste. Rose will substitute for the Member for Interlake.

ORDERS OF THE DAY HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and that the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on a grievance toda y because of the in abil ity of this government to deal with the backbone ind ustry of this province. They have left the indus try of agriculture, Mr.

Speaker hung out to dry, and what I said the other day in my comments in debate, that NOP times are tough times, are coming through loud and clear. NOP times are tough times. Mr. Speaker, we have a Minister of Agriculture and a Premier, and I start, Mr. Speaker, on their election 1870

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 promise of 1981 when they promised the people of Manitoba that no one would lose their home, their farms because they were going to prohibit tha t from happening. That was the promise that the people of Manitoba voted this incompetent group of people into office on, that kind of a promise. So I speak, Mr. Speaker, today with some regret, because I did think that this Minister of Agriculture would pay attention to the opposition, to the farm communi ty that have been pleading with them over the past 18 to 20 months now to do something to deal with the crisis situation that they're facing.

Three years in a row, Mr. Speaker, the farmers have seen a decline in their net income in Manitoba, a decline in their net income when everyone else in society has been demanding an incr ease. In fact, Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Agriculture participated with the Cabine t that gave the Civil Service a 27 .5 percent incr ease over 30 months. Who pays that incr ease, Mr. Speaker? It's the farmer, the small businessman, the labourer and everyone in society are paying for what he supported, Mr. Speaker. I again go back to his Estimates where I'd like to have had some of this information that he's now giving us.

I pleaded with him, Mr. Speaker, during his Estimates, during the MACC deba te to establish a committee to deal with the crisis in farm financing. But he didn't do it, Mr. Speaker. What did he wait on? He waited on a march on the Legislature, the first march that's been on this Leg islatur e sinc e the New Democratic Party were in office one other time. God bless, if that ever happens again that they ever get in again. That, Mr. Speaker, is the only time there was another march on the Agriculture Minister was prior to our term in office. Yes, Mr. Speaker, it's a kn ee-jerk reac tiona ry government.

Instead of having all this mechanism in place to deal with the situation, no, Mr. Speaker, a Farm Survival Group had to come in, pleading on their hands and knees for this Minister to do things that would help them. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, we saw what happened out at Portage la Prairie where the farm community rallied. I'm not getting into whether it was right or wrong, but they were rallying for - they were trying to bring attention to this Minister of Agriculture that they were pleading for help from the government, Mr. Speaker; help which they were promised prior to the November 18th election of 19 81.

We have seen, Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Agriculture totally turn his back on the farm communi ty; this Premier, Mr. Speaker, who is incompetent to govern, and we have tremendous examples, many examples, of every time somebody needles him a little bit, he jumps one way or the other. What is the . direction they're going, Mr. Speaker? Where are wi:: �Joing in this province with this kind of a government? We're going broke, Mr. Speaker, and the farmers are going broke in handfuls. We have the Minister of Agriculture today tell us, admit, that there are 100 farmers that he knows of.

He's been told by financial institutes. He didn't go out, Mr. Speaker, as this caucus did last spring and do a review and do a survey. The Minister said, what did we find? We found, Mr. Speaker, approximately 1,5 00 farmers at that time who were extremely hard pressed for financial support. They needed help. Mr. Speaker, the other thing we found was that, if the prices didn't improve, that would double to some 3,000 farmers. But this Minister of Agriculture didn't spend his time or resources to find out what the picture was out there.

He sat in here and kept saying, we've got an Interest Rate Relief Program that, if you make $70,000 or more gross, you don't qualify; I'm going to stick to that because there are 700 farmers helped. What about the other 2,300 farmers who needed support, Mr. Speaker? But he didn't take the time or spend his resources to find out how critical the situation was, Mr. Speaker. Then I would say at that time, he would see the orange lights flashing. There were some warnings coming out, Mr. Speaker, in the farm commun ity, but what did he do?

He waited until all the red lights were flashing in the farm community; farmers pressed to the kind of confrontation you are seeing taking place. I'll put it on the record, Mr. Speaker, I don't support that kind of action. I don't support it, Mr. Speaker, but it could have been avoided if this Minister had acted responsibly and had structured his department, structured MACC and his programs to stop this ki nd of necessary confrontation approach. What does he do, Mr. Speaker? He waits until the farmers want to go to the field and plant their crops before he says, we're now going to put a program in place.

The farmers want to go to the field in two weeks, Mr. Speaker. They have to have financial support to buy seed, to buy fertiliz er, chemicals and, yes, Mr. Speaker, fuel. What did we do, Mr. Speaker? Two years in a row, we asked support from this government to remove the federal tax on farm fuels, Mr. Speaker, which would have reduced farm prices on fuels by half. It would have reduced the fertilizer costs to the farmers, but he wouldn't even get up and speak on it or support us, Mr. Speaker. That is the kind of support the farmers are getting from the New Democrats.

NOP times are tough times in Manitoba and they're just going to let it be that way, Mr. Speaker. Let us talk about the Interest Rate Relief Program briefly. He wouldn't change it, Mr. Speaker. What about the MACC program? Make some change. I'm a farmer and I'm in trouble and I have got 10 percent equity in my farm operation. This Minister is going to help me out. He introduces $1 00 million in loans, guaranteed, Mr. Speaker, but he says, now Mr. Farmer, that 10 percent equity isn't good enough. You have got to have 20 percent equity in your operation. How am I going to get it, Mr.

Speaker, because every1hing is going the wrong way for me? This Minister kicks the stilts out from under me again, Mr. Speaker, kicks the stilts out from under the farm communi ty and so it again points out that they really by design want NOP times to be tough times. We have heard the Minister today say he is going to establish a committee, a committee that we wanted established weeks and months ago, Mr. Speaker. If he would read back during the debate of his Estimates, just finished his Estimates, Mr. Speaker, we have been asking him to change his programs for over a year, and what did he do?

Turned his deaf ear. A month ago during his Estimates, we asked him to establish a committee to cut some of the red tape, to get on with the job of putting in place a committee to deal precisely with the problems that are now being pointed out in the Edwin or those other commu nities. 1871

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 Mr. Speaker, another problem I have - he now says, we don't know what kind of legislative authority we need. He's the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker, he doesn't know the legislative authority that he is going to use to help the farmers. But he says this, we're waiting on the Federal Government, it's truly their responsibility to deal with it. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you that the bank-f arm communit y, the relationship in the last month-and- a-half has broken down severely because people like him and his government haven't acted.

I don't support the federal legislation that is being introduced, because it will totally erode the farm financing for Western Canada. But the reason, Mr. Speaker, that this could have been avoided is because he didn't act. If he had acted, Mr. Speaker, all this would have been set aside by now and we would have had farmers going into the field. We would have had those farmers being helped along the way that needed the help and deserved the help and those that didn't and there was no hope, Mr. Speaker, they would have been off in another way of life.

The government could have helped them do it, but they didn't, Mr. Speaker. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, because it is crucial and it's critical and we are sitting on an agriculture time bomb right now with the farmers not only in Manitoba, not only in Ontario - yes, Mr. Speaker, there are farmers in Saskatche wan that are feeling the pinch as well, but not to the same degree because they didn't have the effects of the drought, the flood and all those problems in the last few years that we had. What I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, because he is so anxious to say it's a national responsibility and he wants positive and constructive recommendations, I want this Minister of Agriculture to get on the phone, to get out of this Legislative Assembly in the next hour and organize a national Agriculture Ministers' conference right here in Winn ipeg to come up with some posit ive recommendations, because that's what happened when the oil industry was feeling the pinch. Somebody spoke out for the oil ind ustry; somebody spoke out and brought national attention to the plight of that ind ustry.

And this Minister today, if he'd had any leadership abili ties - which he hasn't - could have called a national conference on agricultural financing and the lower grain prices, the lack of a stabilization payout that the Western Canadian grain farmers should be getting, Mr. Speaker. But he comes in and tells us all those things that he has done while back home on the farm, everybody is going broke, Mr. Speaker, because he doesn't want to deal with it. I challenge him, Mr. Speaker - (Int erjection) - not everybody, Mr. Speaker, but there are enough of them that he should be calling a national conference.

Why doesn't he ask the Federal Minister of Agriculture where he stands on this legislation? Are the farmers just going to sit out there and hope something's going to happen? I said, Mr. Speaker, what is the alterna tive? And some of the banking institutes have put some proposals forward but he is not dealing with it. He's got to bring it to the focus of 24 million Canadians. He's not doing it, Mr. Speaker. He is letting them just slide away. He's letting them have a confrontational approach in the farm commun ity, and that's not healthy for society, Mr. Speaker.

What I am saying is, why doesn't he convene a min isterial meeting in Winnipeg next week to deal with the national problem on farm financing and low inco mes? Mr. Speaker, the concern we have with what this Minister is proposing is, of course, somewhat of a very serious situation, because we have asked him for the terms of reference. There's no question in my mind, Mr. Speaker, we have cred ible names that we could recommend to this Minister. I would have one better suggestion for this Minister, Mr.

Speaker, and that is he and his Premier resign so that we can, in fact, take over the running of this province and put it back on some sound economic directions that will give the confidence to the people. Certainly he's asking us for namt�s and it's a very wise political thing to do because he doesn't have many competent people. Mr. Speaker, one of the things that will be requested by us, because what did he do to the best people that we had in place? He fired them, he wholesale fired the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation Board of Directors.

He fired good people and now he's coming back to us saying, well, we need names of people. You had names of people and you fired them, Mr. Speaker; people who could have helped you through a crisis situation. Don't come crying to us because you can't find competent people, but we will give you some names, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one thing further, we would also like to have the ability now to appoint members to other boards in Agriculture. Is it just when he's in a tight political spot and the heat's really on, he's saying, I want to share that heat with the opposition; help me out; bail me out.

I think it's a fair request, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Agriculture give us the right to give him names and to appoint those people to other boards in Agriculture in other places. If he wants help now, let us give him help. I think the best recommendation yet is one which I think I have support from my colleagues, is for them to call an election and we'll take over and we'll get the names, Mr. Speaker, in wholesale nu mbers to put this province back on track. Mr. Speaker, I've dealt with some of the concerns that the farmers are dealing with today; fuel prices.

They're dealing with lower initial grain prices. There is no pay out from the Western Grain Stabili zation Program , Mr. Speaker . We ha ve a Beef Income Assurance Program that is ill-conceived and the farmers aren't getting money out of it today; they're paying money into it, Mr. Speaker. That will come back to haunt the Minister time and time again, Mr. Speaker. We have, Mr. Speaker, a Minister of Agriculture whose priorities are somewhat mixed up.

He is trying to tell us about his priorities, and he wants to introduce into this Legislature laws that will stop farmers from selling their land to othe r Manitobans who may be incorporated, or he wants to stop them from selling to other Canadians. Mr. Speaker, where did the two people come from in Portage la Prairie that everybody's rallying to their support yesterday? They came from Ontario, Mr. Speaker. In this Minister's own words, that's a bad place to come from if you'r e going to buy land in Manitoba. His priorities are totally screwed up, Mr. Speaker.

He's trying to put heavy-handed legislation in Manitoba; trying to put hea vy- hand ed legislation on farm ownership when it's not a priority. Our priority is to save the family farm, Mr. Speaker; to use our legisl ative 1872

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 strength and our resources to help every farmer today, not to try and put him out of business by restricting who he can sell his land to if, in fact, it happens to be another Canadian or a Manitoban who wants to have an incorporated farm business. Another waste of time, Mr. Speaker, and I think that the First Minister and the Minister of Agriculture should finally start paying attention to what is happening in this countr y. We are spending our time going through the province on Crow rate hearings. Well, Mr.

Speaker, why aren't we going through the province on agriculture financing hearings? We can do something about that, Mr. Speak er, but I' ve never seen the Federal Government in Ottawa yet under Pierre Elliott Trudeau that gives a darn for what the people of any part of Canada say. Here we're going around using taxpayers' money to find out again and again and again that we're opposed to the Pepin plan. Certainly we're opposed to it, Mr. Speaker, but why haven't we got Mr. Pepin sitting in on those hearings, a man that can hear directly? We are wasting the taxpayers' time and money, Mr. Speaker.

I don't mind, and I know that the Minister of Highways and Transportation would agree, we did hear one good brief on the hearings that we're on. It probably will be helpful, but I recommend that indi vidual go to Ottawa and camp on the doorstep of Jean-Luc and maybe he would get his message across. Mr. Speaker , I can 't re- emph asize enough the concerns that I have for the farm commun ity. I don't think, Mr. Speaker, that it's the responsibility in a free and open and proper society that everyone should be stopped from failing in business.

I, for one, would say the right to succeed has to give you the right to fail, Mr. Speaker, I think that is something we all subscribe to. We have a government that promised that that wouldn't happen, Mr. Speaker, but it has happened time and time again. We have made some positive suggestions, Mr. Speaker, to this Minister, to this Premier. What have we heard, Mr. Speaker? We have heard farmers marching on the Legislature. We have heard explos ive situations developing in the farm community where there are protest movements taking place, where the receivers are being confronted by farm groups.

The farmers aren't to be blamed, Mr. Speaker, but this Minister of Agriculture is because he could have avoided it if he'd have played a responsible role as the Minister of Agriculture, but he has to wait till he's hit with a two-by-four over the head before he comes to life, or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe there isn't any life in him. Well, if he doesn't act pretty soon, Mr.

Speaker, he will have to be changed as the Minister and I would recommend that his First Minister do that Even the Minister of Hig hways would be more acceptable to the farm commun ity, as long as he didn't have his former Deputy Minister dragging along with him. I think that would be an acceptable change. Mr. Speaker, what else has this government done to help the farm commu nity? They've raised the hydro rates by 9.5 percent, Mr. Speaker; hydro rates which we froze. That's a great help to the farm community that are under extreme pressure and lower income. They've raised the sales tax, Mr. Speaker.

That's helped everybody, so you could support a higher Civil Service wage of some 27.5 percent over 30 months. That's the kind of help the farm commu nity got, Mr. Speaker. They got an incr ease in gasoline tax, Mr. Speaker, something that they said wouldn't happen last year; they were going to freeze it; that was the end of increased gas taxes, Mr. Speaker.

Every farmer, even though he drives his tractor in the field, does have a car to go to town to buy his supplies and his groceries and do those kinds of things that normal families do in the city, and he is strapped with incr eased taxes like you'd never believe. Without, Mr. Speaker, talking about the increased cost of a deficit which is a burden on the backs of every Manitoban, all this has to come out of the incomes of farm people who have seen lower returns in grain; lower returns in other commodities; lower returns in wages to those people who work for farmers. This is all coming out of the people, Mr.

Speaker, who make this province what it has been in the past. It has only taken a short one-and-a-half to two years, Mr. Speaker, for the general public to just realize how incom petent and how incapable these people are of dealing with the economic situation; their inability to govern during times when they didn't have a treasury full of money which was left by a previous government; a totally inept government unable to cope with current situations.

So you end up with confrontation in the farm communi ty; you end up with programs that are ill-conc eived and a Minister who will not make the kinds of changes necessary to cope with the current situation. In fact, any changes that he has made, he's made it more impossible for farm help than not. He's introduced a would-be committee, Mr. Speaker, to try and say that this will be the answer to farm bankru ptcies. Mr.

Speaker, he is doing it at the time when it should have been in place months ago, and the consequences of that will probably be unne cessary breakups of family -farm units or losses of assets of people who norma lly, through a little bit of di rection and the kind of economic support that the Manitoba Agricultural Corporation could have provided. But he fired that board, Mr. Speaker, and now he's asking us to give him names of people to help him out of the wilderness. Well, I told him, Mr.

Speaker, we would help him out of the wilderness, but he would have to resign first, which would be the best treat and breath of fresh air that all the people of Manitoba would get. I will conclude my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by saying this, that it's unfortunate that we had to have this kind of a debate, this kind of comment in the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, possibly you could give me the time I have left - the rest of the afternoon? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member has over 15 min utes left MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, you ind icated 15 min utes? Thank you. There's another area that I would like to delve into, Mr.

Speaker, and again I mentioned during the Estimate process or the conclusion of the Estimate process where, in fact, things were happening in the Department of Agriculture that this Minister of Agriculture was not aware of. But before I get to that, Mr. Speaker, I want to come up with a construc tive criticism and a constructive 1873

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 recommendation, and I wanted to make sure the Minister heard me again, and that is because of a lack of co-ordination and this government's ability in this province to deal with the current situation in agriculture; because we now have legislation in front of the House Commons in Ottawa that no one truly understands, but the total consequenc es of that, and of having to introduce such legislation would be disastrous - it would take away the farm financing, the background financing and support that has been there for the farm community, Mr.

Speaker - I recommend again to this Minister that he make it a national issue with the Federal Minister of Agriculture with all the other Ministers of Agriculture in Canada. That I would like him to do. I would like him to make it a national issue, because if he doesn't, you are going to see an acceleration of confrontation, which I don't think any farm people like, Mr. Speaker. I don't think they like it; I don't like it and don't support it.- But they are forced to it, not because they want to, but because this Minister has lacked the ability to be strong and to show leader ship.

I would hope he would take these words and I would hope that he would immediately deal with it, because he found time to go to a National Conference on Beef Stabilization, Mr. Speaker. He has found time to go to meetings on other kinds of programs with the Federal Government. I would hope today that he would leave this Chamber and give consideration to that kind of a co-ordina ted effort by all the Ministers in Canada, because I believe, Mr. Speaker, if this Minister doesn't have some ideas that might deal with the situation, there are some pretty competent Ministers in a lot of the other provinces in Canada.

Some of them are personal friends of mine; some of them I haven't had an opportunity to meet, but I know that they are coming from a pretty good background and have lots of depth. Their problems aren 't totally unlike ours, although ours are somewhat unique, because of the past drought and the past flood problems, and certainly would be putting us in a little different area. So I do ask the Miniser to do that.

I would hope that he would do it and I would hope he would get the kind of response from the Federal Minister of Agriculture who should, when there's a bill before the House of Commons, be prepared to go before all the Provincial Ministers of Agriculture and the public of Canada and totally point out whether it is good, bad or ind ifferent legislat ion. But, again, I want to point out, it is my estimation and from what I have heard, that it is not good legislation, but let's look at the alterna tives that can be put in place.

So I would hope the Minister takes to heart and takes some action on making it a national focus because this is what it's going to take. This is what it's going to take, Mr. Speaker, to defuse some of the confrontation that is taking place. They at least know somebody in the Legislative Assembl ies in the House of Commons in Canada care about the plight of the farm community and I again re­ emphasize, a farm community in Manitoba that had a net decline in their incomes each of the last three years, Mr. Speaker. There aren't many other groups in society that have faced that kind of - (I nterjection) - Mr.

Speaker, we have the tree planter from North Dakota, who's done so much to enhance the trade for the farmers in the United States, one of our major trading partners. The Minister of Natural Resources speaking from his seat has done so much to enhance that great market of 220-some-million people of the south by participating in an anti-American demonstration. That's the kind of help the farm commu nity needs, you know. With help like that, Mr. Speaker, they won't go very far. That's the kind of colleagues this Minister of Agriculture has to deal with. You kn ow, that's the kind of background that he has . . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. DOWNEY: I want to just discuss briefly, Mr. Speaker. Again the Minister of Agriculture, who at a time when the farm community is feeling this extreme pressure, at a time when they are feeling the difficulties, this Minister of Agriculture has five people taken from his Department of Communications, and he didn't know a thing about it. It followed on the recommendations by the Weppler Report, Mr.

Speaker, followed on the recommendations that the Department of Agriculture Communi cations Branch were probably doing the best job of any Communi cations Branch in the entire government, and he didn't even know about it, Mr. Speaker. He came to the office one morning and he was told tha t they had five people taken from his Commu nications Branch, at a time, Mr. Speaker, when we need to put the message out to the rest of the public in Canada. He had a tool in his hands to do it, and what did he do? He left that great mastermind of a Premier of his who doesn't know Sic 'em from Come here, Mr.

Speaker, take those communi cations people from him. And why didn't he stand up and fight for the farm community? He hasn't done that yet. There hasn't been one example that I can give this Minister credit, Mr. Speaker. I can't give him credit in one area for standing up for the farm communit y. He's standing behind them but it's so far back, Mr. Speaker, that he looks like the red rump of the Liberal Party. I think that's how it was put by one national politician. I think that's where he fits best. Mr.

Speaker, it's that kind of weakness; it's that kind of lack of direction; it's that kind of non-support that the farm community won't tolerate. And again, Mr. Speaker, agriculture again are sa ying, time and time again throughout rural Manitoba and it will spread to the city, that NOP times are tough times and that will stick with him forever, that under the Minister, Billie Uruski, the Honourable Minister for Interlake, that NOP times are tough times and it will be said over and over and over again, Mr. Speaker. The lower grain prices, Mr.

Speaker - I do want to be constructive, because the Minister did communicate to the Federal Government on lower grain prices, but he didn't have any positive suggestions on how it could be dealt with, Mr. Speaker. I suggested that possibly there could be a loan program put in place to lend that money to the Wheat Board so they wouldn't feel the initial lowering of those prices. A loan program, Mr. Speaker, interest-free, because let's remember how many millions of dollars are sitting in the federal Grain Stabili zation Program that - (I nterjection) - 600 million.

My colleague for Morris helped me with the numbers. There are $600 million of Western Canadian 1874

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 grain farmers' money sitting in the hands of the Federal Government. That is a lot of money and that is sitting there, Mr. Speaker, and I would hope when the Minister of Agriculture calls the national Minister and all the other provincial Ministers together that he will say, let's rework the formula so that we can get a cash flow into the hands of those farmers this coming year. It will take some of the pressure off the backs of the farmers. It would take some of the weight off the backs of the taxpayers. It would use money that is the farmers' own money, Mr.

Speaker, and isn't held by the Federal Government in Ottawa. That is the kind of thing that he could recommend, Mr. Speaker, to his federal count erparts and to the Ministers in other provinces. It's that kind of support that he could go forward with and make those kinds of recommenda tions. What is he going to do, Mr. Speaker? He is going to sit in this Legislature and say there are 700 and some people helped under the Interest Rate Relief Program . At the same time, there are 100 people having the receivers knocking on their doors, taking their livestock or their machine ry away. That's what is happening, Mr.

Speaker, while he is trying to set up the guideli nes for a committee who are going to do what? What are they going to do? Maybe by the middle of August, when the comb ines should be in the field, they are going to be recommending that farmer A, B, or C should get a seeding loan, money for their fertilizer. That's the kind of thing that's going to happen, Mr. Speaker. You know, he is shooting behind the target all the time, Mr. Speaker. Wh y doesn 't he show some leadership ability? Why doesn't he show some strength? Why doesn't he stand up for the farm commun ity, Mr.

Speaker, because that is what they need during a time of an economic recession. They are such a small group. Their vote is such a small group in society, Mr. Speaker, that it is unfortunate. - (I nterjection) The Minister of Natural Resources said they're worth nothing to him. They're worth nothing to you. Is that what you said? HON. A. MACKLING: I said the honourable member is now speaking. When he was Minister of Agriculture, he did nothing. MR. J. DOWNEY: I am prepared, Mr.

Speaker, to go to the people of Manitoba and campaign on our policies on agricultur e versus this Mini ster's polic ies on agriculture, and I'll tell you how it will end up. I can tell you how it will end up, Mr. Speaker. There will be a pretty big change-over because I'll tell you, the people who voted those members in opposite today in the government are seeing what they have done. They are seeing what they have done, Mr. Speaker. I don't hold that against them. We live in a free democratic society. They have the right to cast their vote, their support, for whoever they like but, Mr.

Speaker, they deserve the right to have the confidence of those people. They deserve the right to be looked after by those people and they didn't get it, Mr. Speaker. They didn't get it in spades. I'll tell you, Mr. Speaker, they will remember, and again and again and again, they will say that NDP times are tough times. I would like to conclude my greivance tod ay, Mr.

Speaker, by saying that I have been receiving numerous letters and phone calls from farmers who have made application for the new loan guarantee under the MACC; farmers who I would have never thought would have needed any form of support, but they do need it. They're legitima te, well-thought out farmers that have run into some tough times in the last couple of years and they do need some additional support. They probably need it a little bit more, because what I'm also hearing, Mr.

Speaker, is that the banking community are tightening up just a little bit because of the confrontation and the activities that are taking place out there. Do you know that the farm community makes up - and I think my figures are correct - just under 3 percent of the loans of the banking community in Canada. Under 3 percent of the amount of money that all the banks in Canada loan out go to agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, if the kind of flak and the kind of lack of co-ordina ted putting together and what I would call stability provided by government which has to be in place - confidence has to be there for both sides, both banking and farming - if that confidence is eroded, the banks and the lending institu tes will do what they did following the depression of the 19 30s. They will call every loan, Mr. Speaker, and upset the total farm commun ity. They will say, who needs the kind of harrassment that we are getting from, yes, from the farm commun ity, in most cases justified. I have to say, in a lot of cases it is.

But if we would have had a responsible provincial Minister of Agriculture in government, if we would have had a responsible Federal Government dealing with the farm commun ity, then I don't think we would have come to this situation. But we are on the verge, Mr. Speaker, if this thing isn't dealt with very carefully, of confrontation and crisis in farm commu nities. We are seeing banks getting very nervous and lending institutes about carrying on with the contin ued financing of farms. If that starts to happen, then you have a domino effect, Mr. Speaker.

The num bers of farmers that are in trouble today will increase in multitudes because the farm community will lose the support they're getting from the lending institutes at this point. That cannot be allo wed to happen, so I will close, Mr.

Speak er, by again re-emphasizing this Minister of Agriculture has a responsibility to make a national issue, to get some answers from the Federal Minister of Agriculture, to get some answers from his col leagues, and support him to make him a stronger Minister so that he can go forward and when he says something to the farm commun ity, they know that it's more than empty echoed words, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if the Minister would just do those few things, we would be prepared to give him names, but we have to know the terms of reference and the legisla tive authority in which he's dealing with.

If he would give them to us right now, I would have names right back to him. In fact, I could give him one name that really comes to mind right now. There is a man who is a cred ible farmer and he's had a reputation with the farm co-ops and he has done some good work for the farm commun ity, and that's Jim Deveson who is the past President of Manitoba Pool Elevators. He's a credible person; he's a tough man, but he knows what the farmers need in tough times. MR. B. RANSOM: Give him the names of some of those they kicked off the board. 1875

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 MR. J. DOWNEY: I could go back to some of the names of those that he fired. That's right - Harold Sneath was one that was his own appointment, former President of Manitoba Pool - Harold Clement - you know, we've got many names of well-qualified people. I guess, Mr. Speaker, there are hundr eds of people that I can give him.

If he would only listen to us, and if he would have listened to us and my colleagues for the last two years, this wouldn't have developed; but he bur ied his head in the sand and the farmers of Manitoba have every right to do what they'r e doing, call him and his government, and saying that he and Premier Howard Pawley under his admin istration, that NDP times are tough times. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I do hope that this Minister of Agriculture will call a national conference to deal with the current prices in agriculture. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, in dealing with this grievance motion put toward by the - speaking on the motion that's been put forward by the Member for Arthur - well, it's a motion that he is speaking on, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if one was to totally disregard what the ho no urable mem ber has said and not realize the seriousness of the situation that is there. One would almost have to smile at what the Honourable Member for Arthur has said in this last little while. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do you think it's funny? You think it is funny! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, a Cons ervative adminis tration and a Cons ervative MLA whose philosophy is non-governmental intervention, totally a philosophy of free enterprise, of non-int erference in the economy, recommending that the state intervene in bailing out the financial institutions in difficult times - one would have to smile - and now saying that we should intervene in all the cases that are there of hardships that farmers are faci ng. In fact, Mr. Speaker, if one didn't realize the seriousness of the situation, one could smile, those kinds of comments coming from a Conservative MLA. When they were in office, Mr.

Speaker, they could not see themselves and the Province of Manitoba being involv ed in the day-to-day situations of farmers and government and private institutions. Mr. Speaker, what did we hear today; you'd better get your hands dirty and get involv ed in the day-to-day operations of the farmers and their lending institutions; get involv ed in this whole area. You know, Mr. Speaker, the Tories can't, and I guess they want to have it both ways, they want to be on both side s of the qu estio n.

When in office, our philosophy tells us not to get involv ed in this situation; when we propose some situations and some solutions and some avenues of dealing with some of these critical situations, they now say you haven't done enough, You are waiting too long, you haven't done enough. Mr. Speaker, we are the first admin istration in this country to deal with the serious situation that we face throughout this country. - (I nterjection) - Well, Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is in terms of num bers, they are no different than they are in other provinces; you look at the Provinces of Quebec, Ontario and other provinces. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, now that we've proposed some solutions, it isn't soon enough. Mr. Speaker, when they were in office, they supported high interest rates, their administration. Then when we brought in an Interest Rate Relief Program, Mr. Speaker, they told us we couldn't find any farmers. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Order please. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo on a point of order. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order. The Minister has made a statement to the effect that our party and our government supported high interest rates. That is not the case and I demand that he withdraw it. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . the former Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Speakw;ithe former Minister of Finance when he was in officilil - the Member for Turtle Mountain - did on May 8, 19 81, Page 3468 in Hansard - "But if I might return for a moment to the previous question. The honourable member tried to isolate the monetary policies of the Federal Government from their fiscal policies. The best advice that is available today is that the monetary policy of the Bank of Canada is basically sound." Mr. Speaker, if that isn't an outright statement of support to the then policies of the Federal Government and the Bank of Canada, if that isn't an outright support for that policy, Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what is. Mr. Speaker, the Member for River Heights can ask for withdrawals all he wants. We brought an Interest Rate Relief Program, Mr. Speaker, the first of it's kind in this countr y. In fact, we were told it wasn't enough and it was a pittance of . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the honourable members we did not say . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. 1876

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 ����������- -����������· MR. B. RANSOM: I thought for a moment, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the Minister was speaking on the point of order. Perhaps you could clarify that for me, because I wish to speak on the point of order when he's done. MR. D. ORCHARD: Are you speaking on a point of order, Bil ly, or do you know? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is the Minister for Agriculture speaking on a point of order? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I was continuing with my remarks indicating that I felt there was no point of order. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the members opposite have on frequent occasions said that I had stated that we and our government favoured high interest rates. What he has put forward in evidence of that is a statement which I said to the effect that the best advice avai lable was that the monetary policies of the Federal Government were sound, etc. There is a vast difference, Mr. Speaker.

I had discussion with the Minister of Finance in his Estimates last year, whereupon the Minister of Finance agreed that it would have been unfair of me to say that his government favoured high inflation, just as it was unfair of them to say that we had favoured high interest rates, Mr. Speaker. I suggest that the Minister of Agriculture has no basis for that statement . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. B. RANSOM: . . . and should simply withdraw it and get on with his remarks. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Agriculture on the same point of order. HON. B.

URUSKI: I continue to speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, and statements made again by the former Minister of Finance on 22nd of May 19 81, Page 3731, wherein I quote in an answer to a question of the then Leader of the Opposition, the now Premier, and I qu ote from that page: "B ut given the circumstances we are in today, Mr. Speaker, I'm advised that the consequen ces of the Central Bank following a very different course of action than they are now following would lead to an even worse situation, Mr. Speaker." Mr.

Speaker, the Central Bank following the monetary policy of high interest rates, one can only deduct from those kinds of statements - (I nterjection) - Well, Mr. Speaker, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: From their statements I have said that it is my belief that they support high interest rates. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that in their remarks they have indi cated that. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are there any other members who wish to speak on the point of order? The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Agriculture wishes to say that he belie ves that we supported it or he in terpr eted what we said as supporting high interest rates, fine. What the Minister did was attribute a statement to me and a policy to our government, and I have challenged them to either produce where that was stated by myself or was stated as a policy of our government. In the absence of proof, Sir, he should simply withdraw the remark. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Finance on the same point of order. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, to the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I don't think anybody in this House wants high interest rates or wanted them at any time, but there is a group in this House who bel ieved that was necessary a year ago and two years ago. That group sits in opposition right now. They didn't say they wanted high interest rates, but they said that the high interest rate policy of the federal bank, the Bank of Canada, was the correct policy to foll ow. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Surely, it is dancing on the heads of needles, of pins, to say that there is a distinction between . . . MR. H. GRAHAM: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I'm on a point of order. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Excuse me. You cannot raise a point of order on a point of ord er. MR. H. GRAHAM: I suggest the honourable member is debating. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I am not debating. I am pointing out on the point of order that there indeed is no point of order because the Minister of Agriculture was absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that he thinks that the people opposite want deli berately to foist high interest rates on people. They thought that it was a solution.

One can use an analogy of the doctor in the old days who thought that he would cure the patient by taking a pint of blood out and if that didn't work, they took another pint out; and if the patient died, it was because they took not enough blood out. That's exactly the theory that they and Governor Bouey subscribe to, that if high interest rates don't cure inflation, then you boost interest rates hig her, and if inflation continues, then it's because interest rates aren't high enough. 1sn

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do any other members wish to speak on the point of order? MR. D. ORCHARD: Are you making a ruling now, Mr. Speaker, as to whether he should withdraw? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there a request for a ruling? The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the MLA and our Opposition House Leader, has clearly ind icated that the Minister of Agricu ltur e should withdraw the allegation that we supported high interest rates. He has not documented any record of Hansard or any place where we made such a statement.

In light of the fact that he cannot prove his statement, it is incumb ent upon him to withdraw his remarks. I would ask, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you instruct the Minister of Agriculture to withdraw his allegations which are incorr ect. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The Minister of Agriculture has referred to two sections in Hansard which he has quoted and has inte rpreted as meaning what he has said. The opinions on both sides of the House conflict as to what the precise meaning of the passages is. Ho wever, a difference of opinions on the meaning of an

interpretation of a passage, of a quotation, does not constitute a point of order. There is no point of order. The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For an admin istration that was prepared to support the then policies and which indica ted that high inte rest rates would cur e in flation, Mr.

Speaker , and then, as I indi cated earli er, when we brought in an Interest Rate Relief Program for homeowners, farmers and small business people in this province, the first of its kind in this coun try, it was the members opposite, the Member for Pembina and the Member for Arthur and other mem bers, who continually derided this administration, saying that this program was ineffective. We would find no farmers in the categories that were und er this program, Mr. Speaker, and which region of the province has the highe st take-up on this program? The central region of the province, Mr.

Speaker, the area in which the constituency of the Honourable Member for Pembina is in. As well, Mr. Speaker, the next hig hest - no, I shouldn't say the next highest - the third highe st is the southwest region in which the Member for Arthur's region is in. In terms of providing assistance and recognizi ng, Mr. Speaker, that these programs weren't the end-all and the be-all of the saviour of farm families in financial dif ficu lty, as well as home owners and small busine sspeople, but we didn't stop there. We didn't close our hands to agriculture.

We followed on with a long-term stabilization program for beef, Mr. Speaker, for the red meats industry, all along willing to co-operate with other provincial admin istrations and the national government where we saw the need for a national stabilization plan of orderly marketing of cattle in this countr y.

We continued to pursue those areas, but we did bring into the beef industry some long-term stabil ity, and we hope that we will be able to turn around the long-term trends of the reduction of beef cows in this province and be able to continue to support a packing ind ustry, processing ind ustry, and feed lot ind ustry in this province. Thir dly, Mr. Speaker, we went on and we said, we know that there was only a short bail-out in terms of the hog ind ustry that it took two years of continued pressure while we were in opposition in terms of assisting the hog indus try in this province.

They said, oh yes, we will help you out a year later, so we'll give you a retroactive payment and then it will go for one year and we'll phase it out because you don't need anymore. Mr. Speaker, we were not that short-sighted. Mr. Speaker, we are interested in terms of providing long-term stability to agriculture. In fact, what the honourable members are saying should be done now; we have provided in the last year and a half to both the hog and the beef ind ustry, Mr. Speaker. Recognizing the world situation in grain prices, Mr.

Speaker, and the financial situation that farmers face, we did bring in a Loan Guarantee Program of $10 0 million. It was recognized by the financial institutions as being, Mr. Speaker . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we are providing $10 0 million over two years as guar antees, as a bail-out - let's un derstand what we are doing, Mr. Speaker - as a bail-out to financial institutions and farmers who are in gr eat di fficu lty, some thing that the former admi nistration did not even recognize. They had a program for years that no one took

part in or very few institutions took

part in, Mr. Speaker. - (I nterjection) - Mr. Speaker, if the honourable members now say tha t there was no problem while they were in government, that was the problem in Manitoba. The Tory admin istration was the problem in this province, Mr. Speaker, and the farmers and the people of Manitoba dealt them their answer. They gave them their answer very clearly in November of 198 1. Mr. Speaker, you look at the percentage of vote that we received. We were told on our beef program that we would be lucky if we had 10 percent of the producers sign up.

Seventy percent of the cow herds and 5,000 producers joined the program, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, talk about an admi nistration that is negative, devoid of any proposals to assist the agricultural sector, now that we have ind icated that we're prepared to try and deal with some of the difficult situations and vola til e situations that the farming industry is facing in terms of their dealings with their financial institutions, and we set up the review panel, what do we say now? You should have done it a month ago or two months ago, Mr. Speaker.

We are the only admini stration in this country that have moved out boldly to put such measures into place, Mr. Speaker, and when we ask the opposition to become involv ed in this process, now they're saying we kicked off so many good farmers and, yes, we will advise. I don't know where they stand, Mr. Speaker. Do they want this or don't they want this? Are they prepared to support, or are they just prepared to carp, Mr. Speaker? I am not sure if they're just a carping opposition, Mr. Speaker, 1878

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 ����������������� · because they talk about following the problem and getting up and carping that not enough is being done. Look ing over the reco rds of four years of Tory admin istration versus a year-and-a-half of an NOP admin istration, Mr. Speaker, clearly, it can be shown where the support and the policies of this government lie in terms of the agricultural ind ustry of this province.

Clear ly, it can be shown that we have lived up to our commitments to agriculture to the farmers of Manitoba and we will continue to serve them and do whatever we can with all our policies that we've put forward, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the situation we have is and can be very volatile in terms of some of the situations that are arising.

We have and will attempt to become and play a mediation and a review role, and we are hoping that farmers around the province are prepared to participate in a review panel, and will be able to analyze the severe situation that farmers face and have put themselves into, Mr. Speaker, many of whom have been unable to deal with the situations, because many operators who are in difficulty are there as a result of high interest rates and a num ber of situations. A MEMBER: But you were going to stop all that. See this? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker , it appears the honourable members feel that the Province of Manitoba can now put up hun dreds of millions of dollars. We never promised that, Mr. Speaker. We promised an Interest Rate Relief Program, which we lived up to, Mr. Speaker. In fact the Budget that was put out in the election campaign, was put forward, Mr. Speaker, and the numbers of farmers and assistance that we've provided is there and we have carried out those commitments. We are going furth er, Mr.

Speaker, on this review, in the absence of any meaningful programs at the national level and we recognize that on the world market, Canadian farmers are being hard pressed in terms of grain prices.

We recognize that there is a national responsibility in the area of incomes for agriculture, but for an opposition who historically have been committed to having government remove from the daily lives of the citizens in this province; for a party who normally have advocated that position to now come into this House and say, you'd better int ervene in the situation; you'd better use the instrumentality of the state to inte rvene in the affairs of private lending institutions and farmers and a whole host of other grievances, Mr. Speaker, really flies in the face of everything that they stand for.

They really have no philosophy, Mr. Speaker. They are an opportunist party, Mr. Speaker, trying to capitalize on the hur ts and the dilemmas of people who are suffering as a result - of what? of a true free enterprise society, Mr. Speaker, the kind of society that they support. They don't want orderly marketing to provide stable incomes for farmers, Mr. Speaker. They want the true, free, open marketpla ce to handle all commo dities. But, Mr. Speaker, when they are in opposition and they are outside of power, they are saying, you'd better intervene; you'd better pull us out of trouble.

What a lopsided opposition, Mr. Speaker, what a two-sided opposition. They really are devoid of any policies or any direction in terms of assisting the farm commun ities of this province, Mr. Speaker, and all of the citizens, for a free enterprise party, Mr. Speaker. I have yet to see such a rabid bunch of socialists on the other side, as we've seen in the last day or two - demanding action, demanding action. The intervention of the state in the affairs of people and their lending institutions and in their commun ity, Mr.

Speaker, coming from a rabid free enterprise party, it is ju st unr eal to hear tha t coming from the Conservatives. I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that we can - not come up and carp and bring about statements and comments after the fact, after the government moves, as they have done in the past - but be construc tive and play a meaningful role in making sure that agriculture remains the No. 1 indus try, as we see agriculture the No. 1 indus try in this province and we put our money where our mouth is, Mr. Speaker, in supporting that ind ustry.

QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Finance; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of the Civil Service Commission. CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee please come to order. The Honour able Minister. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Chairperson, I have some in formation that I would lik e to put before the committee.

It relates to questions that were asked last evening and I think even in the previous sessions of this particular Estimate debate. It is with regard to the Order for Return, or the two Orders for Return that are similar; one requesting information on all transfers of staff and people hired and people whose employment had ceased between November 31 , 1981 and April 5, 19 82. That's the first Order for Return and that information has, in fact, been returned to the House and given to the members.

The information that I have on the cor.p ilation of the response to that particular Order for Return, which was No. 3, required the documentation of 850 appointments and the tabula tion of eight separate pieces of in formation - 6,900 pieces of in formation to be researched, documented, verified by departments, typed into proper format, and subm itted.

There were two additional Orders with the same level of detail for all transfers and all terminations of employment The costing out of this particular process is as follows: The computer costs for the initial data base was $3,000; compilation of individual department breakdowns took 10 hours of work; verification of information by Civil Service Commission staff took 191 hours of work; typing the first compilation took 85 hours of work; review and verification by 33 in dividua l departments or agencies took 165 hours of work; return 1879

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 of information took 66 hours of work; typing, preparation and photocopying took 4 hours of work; materials, including 2,000 photocopies and the paper involved, took 93 hours of work and $1 50, for a total costs - the computer, as I mentioned - cost $3,000; material of $15 0; the staff hours costed out at $5,340 for clerical assistance; and $1, 710 for professional work. It came to a total of $1 0,200 for issuing a response for that Order for Return, which involved four months of hirings or trans fers or movement of staff.

The Order for Return under question now by the Leader of the Opposition and mem bers of the opposition involves nine months of information. Now if we take $5, 100 as a monthly cost - half of what I just gave you - and take that times nine months, we come up with a cost of around $45,000, and if my compilation of the hours of work is correct, the addition of the hours of work indicated by the Civil Service Commi ssion staff, who of course must keep track of this sort of thing, we have 42.5 work weeks. They're almost a year of solid work by one person to do this.

It is, of course, divided among many people, but those people have full-time jobs as I have stated. Now, if we consider that what is being asked for is a subsequent nine months worth of information, that compares with the first four months, which we have already filed, and if members wish to compute how long that will take, based on the information I have just given them - and I will be happy to table that information for the benefit of members - they can understand, I'm sure, quite well, why it is not possible to immediately respond to an Order for Return or even to do so within the time of just a few months.

MR. SPEAKER: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, it would appear that the so-called cost of prov iding the in formation requested in the Order for Return, filed in the House before Chr istmas, could have been offset by the government's grant to the Marxist Conference. Is the Minister suggesting, Mr. Chairman, that the opposition should not be asking for this information? HON. M.B. DOLIN: No, of course I'm not suggesting that. The opposition may ask for any information they wish in an Order for Return and that is well-known and that is well-accepted.

The responsibility for responding to this Order for Return has also been accepted. What I am pointing out to honourable members is the cost in volved, both in time and in actual expenditures. That is considerable and it must be done on top of all the other responsibili ties of staff, and on top of all of the costs involved in running a government. It's not an easy task, it takes time. The information is of very, very extremely detailed nature and it must be correct. It must be checked and it takes a long time to do this.

Staff is not suddenly released from all of their other responsibilities and put onto this task, nor do we have the ability or the desire to hire extra people to do this kind of task. It must be done as an addition to the work that they already have assigned to them, and I am simply pointing out that it does take time, it must be correct, and the information that is filed - if the members will recall the last time it was eight very large boxes of material that were brought down to the Clerk's Office to be distributed.

If you multiply that by at least two and one-half times, that's what you'r e going to be getting this next time around and it's going to take a while to compile that. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear the Minister belie ves that the opposition is entitled to have this information, because certainly when her party was in opposition they asked for very similar information for a num ber of years and the Minister's staff can confirm that to her if she wishes. We are discussing, Mr.

Chairman, what we believe to be a very important principle for the Civil Service, and that is the principle of the merit system. I read to the Minister last evening sections of The Civil Service Comm ission Act , which provides for selection, for appointment, promotion or transfer to a position and shall be based on merit.

I must say to the Minister that our concern is caused by the policy of this government in appointing Selection Committees for priority senior competitions in addition to regular Civil Service appointments; committees composed of persons who are known for their partisan political activity and that must lead us to the conclusion that because of their political activity, in many cases because of the appointments that we have seen made, we are concerned that the merit principle is not the basis for all of the appointments that are being made in the Civil Service, and that is why the Leader of the Opposition has asked for the information that he has in the Order for Return.

It is why we need to have that information in order to complete the Estimates of the Minister of Labour . Could the Mini ster ind icate when this information will be avai lable? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Again referring to the time involved for the previous Order for Return, which was extremely simila r, I would point out that it took about six months or a little more to gather that information and return it to the House. That was for four months' worth of information, four months' worth of hiring and transfers. So you're asking for nine months' worth. I suppose you can extend that according ly. That would be an estimate.

I am certainly not giving any date on which it will be filed. That depends on the workload of staff. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister confirm that in the Orders for Return that have been filed there's not incl uded the same information that has been requested with respect to the composition of the Selection Board? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The members of the Selection Board is new information that has been requested during these Estimates and in the Order for Return. That's not in the Order-in-Council. Do you mean in the previous Order for Return? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. M.B.

DOLIN: That wasn't requested in the earliest Order for Return. 1880

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 ------- Again I would point out that selection commit tees are made up of the people that I have enum erated many times in this committee. Determined by the department and the level of the hiring, you could easily figure out who was on the Selection Committee. l\ll R. G. MERCIER: But in the latest Order for Return filed by the Leader of the Opposition, in the information that the Minister will be supplying she will be providing the composition of the selection boards? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: Yes, that is one more detail that was requested that will probably add to the amount of time needed to gather the information and verify it. MR. G. MERCIER: How much of the work has been done to date? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The work is in progress. I can't tell you how far along it is. Every single file needs to be scanned to determine the information that is requested when you'r e asking for selection committee names. Every single file for every one of those hiring must be looked at indi vidual ly. MR. G. MERCIER: In the Annual Report it indi cates there were in 1982, 908 competitions.

She has indicated she will only be supplying the information from March 15 th to approximately December 15 th. I'm puzzled why it is going to take eight months when obviously some work has been done and reference made in preparing the Annual Report. HON. M.B. DOLIN: I don't recall saying that it was going to take eight months. I said it took six months for the last Order for Return to be filed. That Order for Return involv ed the movement of staff over a four-month period.

What we have deli neated and what we ind icated we would respond to is a nine ­ month period now for the second Order for Return, and I said that you could figure out from that how long it might take. There also is additional information which must be gathered with regard to the seclection committees and as, I guess, a matter of my own personal opinion, I am curious as to why in the discussion of Estimates of the Civil Service Commission we are still on an Order for Return, which is really a matter of the House as a whole. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, we are still on the Order for Return because it is the information that the opposition requires in order to determine and form an opinion as to whether this government is proceeding on the basis of the legislation and making appointments and hiring people on the basis of merit, or whether the appointment of people is being influenced by the partisan political backgrounds of some members of the selection committees that this government has set up and comments on in the Ann ual Report in order to hire senior people and make reg ular Ci vil Service appointments.

So the information that will be in the Order for Return is the information that we require in order to complete these Estima tes and question the Minister on. Sure ly, one of the most important responsibilities of the Minister 1881 responsible for the Civil Service Commission is to ensure that the merit principle is maintained, or would she disag ree with that? HON. M.B. DOLIN: I think it's important at this point to have it show in the record a particular

section of The Civil Service Act, which I think is very important because it relates directly to the freedom of Manitobans. This is a free province and people have the right of political activity. It's

Section 44( 1) of The Civil Service Act. "Nothing in this Act or any other Act of the Legislature prohibits an employee in the Civil Service or a person employed by any agency of the government: (

a) From seeking nomi nation as, or being a candidate, or supporting a candidate or political party in a provincial or federal general election or by-election and, if elected, from serving as an elected representative in that public office; or (

b) From speaking or writing on behalf of a candi date or a political party in any election or by-election if, in doing so, he does not reveal any information or matter concerning the department, branch or agency in which he is employed, or any information that he has procured or which comes to his knowledge solely by virtue of his employment or position." That

section of The Civil Service Act ensu res that civil servants in Manitoba may be politically active if they choose. This, I believe, may not then be held against them when they are performing their duty as civil servants. The opposition is assuming, first of all, that a person is active in a particular political party, and I would ask you to please note that

section of the Act does not refer to which particular party they may be active in. They could be active in the Liberal Party, the Progressive Conservative Party, the New Democratic Party, or the Rhino ceros Party, any of these parties; but they may be politically active. It is not correct to assume that because a particular person might be politically active in the party of their choice or in an election for any given particular political party, that they then have prejudic ed all future activity by themselves in their Civil Service position.

That is an incorr ect and, I belie ve, not in keeping with the law assumption that is being made by the opposition. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, my question to the Minister then is: If she wants to remove the cloud of suspicion that politics are involv ed in a numb er of these appointments, would she not then recommend to the government or establish as a policy th<lt people like the Clerk of the Executive Council and a num ber of the politically appointed Deputy Ministers like Mr.

McBryde and her Deputy Minister of Labour should be removed from the selection committee and replaced by career civil servants so that there is no cloud of suspicion on the appointments that these selection commit tees make when they are composed of people with very partisan political backgrounds? Would she make that recommendation or establish that policy? HON. M.B. DOLIN: The Member for St. Norbert is assuming that whatever he calls a career civil servant - and I'm not sure how long a person has to be employed before you consider it a career.

I don't know if he is talking about longevity or some kind of self-declaration

Tuesday, 19 April, 1983 that there is no party card of any type in a person's purse or wallet. I don't know how he could assume that Mr. McBryde is the supporter of one political party and another Deputy Minister might not be the supporter of some other political party. He is making all kinds of assumptions and, particular ly, because of the

section of The Civil Service Act which I just read to members, I certainly would not do as he asks. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minister not recognize that when people like Mr. Deeter and Mr. McBryde are on a selection committee with their partisan political backgro und, that any appointment that they make carries with it a cloud of suspicion that politics have been involved? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Again, I find this just amazing. Politics are involv ed in elections. There is a party in government right now that has a particular philosophy; there was a party in government before that had a particular philosophy. To assume that civil servants, who exercise their right under

Section 44( 1) of The Civil Service Act, have excluded themselves from then exercising their rights as employees and their responsibilities as employees, particularly as senior managers, is something that I cannot comprehend. I am really surprised that the opposition is pursuing at such great length this line of questioning, as it is very clear in the Act, and it is very clear that one cannot differentiate between what they call a civil servant and what someone else might call a civil servant. We have a definition of a civil servant in law, which is very clear, and that is the one we use. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. I'm also quite amazed that this discussion is being carried to qui te these lengths. The Minister has very distinctly outlined the makeup of selection committees, based on the position that certain individuals hold, whether they will be on that particular selection board or not, in terms of their responsibil ity.

If we used the same procedure that the former government used, which was by Order-in-C ouncil, the Minister or the Premier of Cabinet appointing certain deputies, that I presume they appointed because they shared a common phi losophy as to what tha t department should be doing, were they then assuming that person was a political appointee, and therefore should never sit on selections boards, or did they allow their deputies and their ADMs and their senior managers that they appointed, with or without a selection board, such as the Minister has set up, but appointed them by strict Order-in-Council political appointments?

Were they not allo wed to sit on a selection board to hire departmental staff, or because they happen to be of a different philosophy than certain people the Member for St. Norb ert mentioned - if they happened to have Progressive Conservative cards in their hip pocket, I don't think he had any with purses, which is something else the Minister should be congratula ted for - would the members opposite say that those deputies and those ADMs should not have been sitting on selection boards, hiring any other staff in those departments? If his argument is logical to him, it has to work both ways.

It has to be what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and you can take your pick which category fits. I think for the members opposite to say on one hand, yes, when we were in government we did not remove that

section of the Act. We understand that civil servants have those political rights in a free democratic society and they left that particular

section of the Act in there; in fact, left many of us operating under that Act in our positions. Obviously they agreed with that particular right for civil servants. Their argument in this particular case seems to be extremely contradic tory.

They say it's all right if it's our appointments; it's all right if we choose to recognize as government the validity of civil servants having political rights; we didn't change it, but now that we're in opposition and the government is following the same procedure, in fact, even making the procedure under the present policy standardized in that it happens with all levels, not just levels that are covered by the MGEA agreement, but senior management as well, it seems that their argument is going around in full circle and coming back to hit them in the face. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30 the Chair is interrupting the proceeding of this comm ittee in favour of the Private Members' Hour. We shall be back at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - FINANCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estima tes of the Department of Finance, Item 3.(a )( 1) , Comptroller's Office, Salaries. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: I have a few questions on this area, Mr. Chairman.

In respect to paying bills, what's the average time that it takes the government to pay a bill, and can the Minister give us a distribution of the time required for the payment of bills? What percentage takes 30 days, what percentage takes 40 days, and so forth? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. V. SCHROEDER