VOL. 3 .. PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JULY 8, 1981 - NO. 75

- July 8,1981 Tape NO. 3135 ah-1 The House met at 3;00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. l-1R.SPEAKER (Simms); order, please! The hon. President of the Council.

MR.MARSHALL: Touching upon the statement made by the Premier yesterday and the House's expression of sympathy with respect to the tragedy in connection with the Arctic Explorer,I think it appropriate 1 and I know all members will wish to join in this, to make a motion, it is appropriate for the House to make a motion r.0 the effect that flags on public buildings on Saturday and Sunday of this week, this weekend during the period of mourning,should fly at half mast. Mr.

Speaker, as we all know we are very much connected with the marine life in this Province and there have been times from time . to time that we have been visited with tragedies,and this is one of the real tragedies that I think all Newfoundlanders could share in,and I think it most appropriate that the pubic buildings in the Province have flags flying at half mast. And I would make this motion and I feel that my friends opposite,who have already mentionec this to me as well - we have discussed this beforehand- '·JOuld like to join in this motion. MR. STIRLING: Mr~ Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I do concur, agree and presume that it would be done. I will be in Badger's Quay tomorrow to attend the funeral of the Captain,who was from my district 1 and I would again urge the President of the Council to agree with the recommendation that I made yesterday in view of the news today that there 832~

. -·---·- - === ==- -=- July 8,1981 Tape No . 3135 ah-2 MR. STIRLING : is another shir- I do not have fir st -hand knowledge of this but somebody just mentioned to me that apparently another ship, not a Newfoundland sh ip and maybe some distance off our coast - is either in difficulty or the crew has abandoned ship. And I would urge the President of the Council to approach the Premier again.

I know yesterd ay in a moment of haste he said no,but I believe very seriously tr~~ we should ask the federal government and the provincial government to undertake a study of this whole question of the change in regulations that may be required, in communications for one thing , to require people to maintain contact,and the air/sea rescue fact finding that needs to be done to develop a plan for an effective air/sea rescue communications sy~ as we enter a new era, an era in which we are dealing with all of the expansion in the development of the offshore including now 832R --

,....,, ___ * . •: .. ~.-- ....... -·.... . ... -. ·- -- July 8, 1981 Tape 3136 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: the situation in which they are going to be bringing tankers from the Arctic along our coast. So I know that in haste yesterday the Premier might have said no, but I would ask the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) if he at least would take it under advisement to consider whether or not such a request cannot be made.

And I can think of no better way that we could express to the families our genuine concern than by a resolution that this nouse is unanimous in attempting to make sure that this kind of thing does not happen again. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To the motion, the hon. the President I am sure the Leader of the Opposition is well-intentioned when he makes these remarks. You know, the hono the Premier addressed himself to this yesterday.

I would prefer that this particular motion right now is a motion with respect to an expression of public sympathy in connection with this tragedy and the motion is that the flags on public buildings fly at half-mast and I think we should fly them Friday, Saturday and Sunday. MRo SPEAKER: You have heard the motion. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: - Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree. Yesterday the Premier started off with that kind of a motion and then got into the politics of bringing a fixed wing aircraft to Newfoundland.

I agree with the President of the Council that the two should be separated, and for purposes today, let us agree on the motion, and I just ask the President of the Council to discuss with the Premier the other thing and he can even bring it in as a separate motion. MR. SPEAKER: You have heard the motion. Those in favour signify by saying 'Aye'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Contrary 'Nay'. 8327

July 8, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: .;.;-... ,._- :.....:_o_:...:..- -_~-;~·· Tape 3136 EC - 2 I declare the motion carried. So ordered. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, just a very brief ---- statement. I want to bring to the notice of hon. members that this morning the purchase and sale of the Come By Chance refinery, that is, the purchase and sale between Petro-Canada Explorations Inc?rporated and Kleinwort, Denson and Peat Marwick Limited was concluded, which now means that the Come By Chance refinery - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS: -the Come By Chance refinery is now owned by Petro-Canada. They will be responsible for the continuing mothballing and upkeep of the refinery and they are proceeding with their plans that hopefully will see the rehabilitation and reactivation of the refinery at some point, hopefully in the not too distant future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue has about thirty seconds. MR. CALLAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in thirty seconds let me say,first of all, in six years I think this is the most positive thing that has happened surrounding the Come By Chance refinery since it closed in March, 1976. It is a positive thing, hopefully, for the people in the area when the refinery can be reactivated and I believe that it has the best possible chance now that it is in the hands of a federal Crown corporation. B32A

-- ,-- -::.·~ •.• :::::r:=~·~:.·~""Z~:.·· July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3137 so - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. DR. COLLINS: If I might just be permitted ,perhaps I can call the attention of all hon. members of the House that there are officers of Kleinwort, Benson; of ECGD and of the Peat Marwick in the galleries and perhaps .hon. members might wish to acknowledge their presence. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, we are following an unusal procedure in welcoming visitors normally done by - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: MR.

SPEAKER: Oh, oh. Order, please! - I was responding to the minister - Order, please! Let us see what we are doing here. First of all,is the hon. Leader of the O?position (Mr. Stirling) now rising on a point of order or a point of info:mation? MR. STIRLING: My impression was that the minister invited me to 60 it by leave MR. SPEAKER: Well, I did not think he in vi ted anybody to do anything. I presume he was responding to a statement. In any event 1 he welcomed visitors to the gallery; everybody has done that. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR.. STIRLING: Any further statements? A point of order, Mr.

Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Leader Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) was out of order. MR. LUSH: Completely. MR. STIRLING: And I use the point of order to carry on with his request,and that is to welcome to the House of Assembly from both sides - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 832q

-... ;-_-..,.~.-...__._ . .:. ... ~;-:• · ... ·:~· July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3137 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - the visitors who are in town to transfer this sale of Come By Chance out of the provincial - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S'T'IRLING: - misuse into a federal corporation that can do something with it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I understand what the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) is trying to do,but it certainly does not constitute a point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR.

SPEARER: Further statements? The hon. Minister of Justice MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform hon. members on action taken by the Consumer Affairs Division of the Department of Justice with respect to the use of urea formaldehyde foam insulation by residents of Newfoundland and Labrador. In this Province, approximately 6,000 homeowners have used the product in the insulation of their homes. These 6,000 homeowners are now deeply concerned about the health hazards associated with urea formaldehyde.

A number of them are now confronted with the problem of removal and replacement of urea formaldehyde and the financial burden this will impose. I have today, by telex, communicated with the hon. Andre Ouellet, Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs in Ottawa,and I have urged Mr. Ouellet to take immediate action to provide compensation to all homeowners whose homes have been insulated with urea formaldehyde and who must have it removed. I have also urged him to get federal Cabinet approval to assign special priority in assisting those who might suffer ,3"n 0: ,"}

:-----r .~ -=-=-:;;;;;; ..... -- _ ...... _ - · July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3137 SD - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: resultant health problems. In my communication to the federal minister, I pointed out that by establishing a Zenith line - toll fr-=·= - his department was 8 3 3 'I

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3138 IB-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: performing a valuable service from the point of view of dissemination of information. I expressed,however, my disappointment that homeowners in Newfoundland and Labrador were required to call Hull, Quebec to register their complaints and make any inquiries and recommended that a toll-free number be established in this Province.

I also wish to inform the r:uu.se that the Consumer Affairs Division of the Department of Justice will be providing a $2,.000 grant to the recently­ formed committee which is called "The Concerned Urea Formaldehyde Foam Homeowners' Committee". This Committeee has been formed locally in the Province during the past few weeks. This grant is to assist this Committee in assessing the health,legal and financial aspects of the problem caused by the use of urea formaldehyde and also to assist the - MR. HISCOCK: Cosmetics. "MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. gentleman says it is cosmetics, everything is cosmetics.

This is something of real concern to the people and all the hon. gentleman from Labrador can say is that it is cosmetics. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Oh, oh! Order! Order! Cosmetics. Order, please! In his opinion. He would not know cosmetics from Ponds Cold Cream. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. OTTENHEIMER: Why not take some Listerine and listen. Why do you not listen? MR. HISCOCK: Bring back the department with its own minister. MR. OTTENHEIMER: You do not think the people you represent have any interest in this? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! 833! --

-;.~"'.."::.' ~: -;· .~ ----=-;..:;:;·_H_!.';.',..I..! ;::- .· ~:·: ~ 0 o - .. ._. July ·8, 1981 Tape No. 3138 IB-2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: I was sorely provoked, Hr. Speaker, sorelv Provoked- MR. THCMS: I must admit that was an unusual display. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: -sorely provoked by the hon. members opposite, Sir.

However, in.case the hon. members who are interested in the health and comfort of people in this Province ·and in case the constituents of the hon. members who are interrupting are interested - and I am sure they are - I will repeat that I wish to inform, if not the hon. members who are not interested - and that would just be a couple of them, the rest of them are,I can see that, if not them 1at least their constituents-that we will be providing a $2,000 grant to that recently-formed committee. This Committee has been formed locally in the Province during the past few weeks.

And it is to assist this Committee in assessing the health, legal and financial aspects of the problem caused by the use of urea formaldehyde and also to assist the Committee in disseminating information to homeowners in this Province. . I wish to congratulate the Committee on their positive approach towards a very real problem and wish to inform them that the Consumer Affairs Division of the Department of Justice will continue to assist them in the future and to monitor the situation.

Finally,I would point out to hon. members that there is a federal-provind .'ll Conference of Ministers responsible for Consumer Affairs which will be held in Quebec during early September. And at that conference, it is my 833~

__ .. ._ _____ .,, ~ .; ;;;.:·:~; -~ ... July 8, 1981, Tape 3139, Page 1 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: intention, again, to raise the urea formaldehyde issue and to again urge the federal government to compensate homeowners who may have been adversely affected by participating in this federal programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has about two minutes. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, there was a time when this government could have done something about this. And the Minister of Health(Mr.

House) will remember the ·time, in July 1979, when I had just been elected, when constituents in my area were considering the use of this insulation and I brouqht it up in this House to sRv that there had been a TV report about exactly this kind of problem. I asked the Minister of Health to check into it and assure people, and he did. He came back into this House and said, 'There is nothing to be concerned about'. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: This government took the position that there was nothing to be concerned about, no problems, go ahead and insulate. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that was two years ago, when this government did not live up to its responsibilities. Two years ago, Mr. Speaker - MR. HOUSE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Spe3ker, when it was brought to my attention , the thinq had geen done and completed. I advised at that particular time - I made a press release to B334 -

July 8, 1981, Tape 3139, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOUSE: the people - that we had been advised by the Federal Department of Health that the sale was discontinued, the sale of the material ~ as discontinued. That is what was relayed. That information had been gi ven. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Order, please! That does not constitute a point of order. The hon. minister has taken the opportunity to clarify remarks that had been attributed to him. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has about forty seconds. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad that the Minister of Health jumped up to get into it and admit that they had an opportunity to do something. And they took their same tack, 'It is not our responsibility, it is all federal responsibility'. It was Health in this- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is getting into the realm of debate on a Ministerial Statement. The hon. the Minister of Health got up and made a point of order .

All he is doing is just trying to stir things up, as it were, in a prurient, silly little way. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, there are rules in this House. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is showing toda y to the people from away - he is showing everybody in this Province the danger of him ever getting in government and now he is spreading it and showing it to our visitors. 833~

------ ------------ ------, ~--~- July 8, 1981, Tape 3139, Page 3 - - apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~m. SPEAKER(Simms): Oh, oh! Order! Order! To the point of order, the hon.the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker . We have now had two examples in a row, one through ignorance, a man ·got up on a point of order, and another by design . The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) intended only to use up the time. 833R --

July 8, 1981 Tape 3140 PK - 1 MR. STIRLING: He knew it was not a point of order. It comes into the category of spurious points of order used to delay, it falls into the 'Barry Theorem' - when you get close to the truth, you get everybody up on points of order. Mr. Speaker, it is not a point of order. It was used only to waste the time so that we could not bring to the attention of the people of this Province that it was an opportunity that this department was mishandled by the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and they destroyed the Department of Consumer Affairs - MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

STIRLING: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Hea~, hear! - which is the department - Right on. Order, please! With respect to the point of order, first of all the rules are clear for all to observe. In responding to Ministerial Statements,there is not meant to be any opportunity for debate-that is held at another time­ a member can make comments, seek clarification and so on. I must admit there have been occasions in the past when members have seem to stray more towards debate, but the Chair has been very tolerant and tried to be flexible and fair.

In any event,with respect to - the point of order I can say that the hon. Leader of the Opposition's time has now expired with respect to the response. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS : Oh, oh! Further statements? The hon. Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, I make this statement as the Minister of Environment and also as the Minister responsible for wildlife in the Pro vince. 8337

July 8, 1981 Tape 3140 PK - 2 MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the Hous~ concerning the matter of the Upper Salmon hydroelectric development and its relationship to the Grey River caribou herd. One concerned group has recently char ~ ed that the project is seriously interfering with the annual Northward migration of the caribou heLd from its Winter range to .its Summer range, and that this interference has resulted in an abnormally high rate of predation among the caribou by bears and lyns. Both of these allegations are false, as I will demonstrate.

Following the environmental assessment of the Upper Salmon project in 1979, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro was authorized by the government to proceed with the construction of the project on the condition that special measures would be taken to protect the caribou and other components of the envirdnment. One of these measures is a system for monitorinqthe annual migrations of the caribou and providing for temporary shut-down of work sites in order to avoid interference with the animals.

Briefly, it has been agreed between my Environment Department and Hydro that operations at a work site will be stopped if a certain minimum number of caribou are observed to be located within a certain radius of the work site. Throughout the present migration, aerial surveys have been conducted almost daily by the environment monitor and the Hydro officials. In addition, officials of my Wildlife Division and consultants engaged by Hydro have been observing the movements of the caribou and notinq their reactions to various construction activities. MR. FLIGHT: You are qoinq to pay the price now. MR.

ANDREWS: In accordance with the agreement, Hydro has ordered temporary shut-downs at several sites and has imposed 833R -

-- July 8, 1981 Tape 3149 PK - 3 ·MR. ANDREWS: temporary restrictions on vehicular traffic using the access roads. This has included the imposition of lower speed limits and the movement of vehicles in convoys rather than 833~

--- ---- -- July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3141 RA-1 MR. ANDREWS: individually. Vehicle oper ators have been ordered to yield right-of-way to any caribou which appear to be approaching the road. I have been informed by my environment and wildlife officials that they are satisfied that Hydro has acted responsibly and in accordance with the agreed criteria for restricting project-related activities. There has been no significant interference with the caribou migration and most, I repeat, Mr. Speaker, most of the animals have, in fact, moved through to the prc:~ct area and on to their summer range.

The degree of predation among caribou by bears and lynx is perfectly normal for this time of the year, according to the past records and observations of wildlife officials. Furthermore, most of this predation has been occurring in areas some distance to the West of the pro­ ject area and so cannot be regarded as being caused by the project . .

While the project activities may have caused some nervousness in the caribou, and while the effects of the project on the herd may not fully be understood until current studies have been completed, it is untrue to say that the project has seriously interfered wiht migration or has caused increase predation. In

summary, my officials have thus far seen no need for a total shut-down of the entire project, and do not anticipate such a need at present. However, they will con­ tinue to monitor the movements of the caribou and will ensure that Hydro continues to enforces the protective measures which have been instituted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 834n

... __ - ~ ~·- July 8th, 1981 Tape No. 3141 RA - 2 MR. ANDREWS: In conclusion, I wish to point out that this is the first instance in this Province of a major construction project upon which special co nditi ons have been imposed by Governmeht for the Protection of a caribou her.r '. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. ANDREWS : I assure this House that my Depart- ment and Hydro are intent on fulfilling the purpose of these conditions in order to demonstrate that the resource develop­ ments and environmental protection can be compatible. ·SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes has about one and a half minutes. 8341 -

July 8,198 1 Tape No. 3142 ah-1 MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. If there was ever a statement delivered in this House of Assembly before with an admission o£ guilt, Mr. Speaker , this has to be the one. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . HAN'COCK: The minister's own department was told what an impact that that road would have on the caribou herd in that area , Mr. Speaker, and went ahead and built the road. They did not care about the caribou at the time. It is only now that we realize,after the fact , Mr .

Speaker, that his government is going to do something about it , that indeed parts of that road should be closed do\.m, the entire road should be closed down , ~~ . Speaker, to protect the caribou herd in that area . It is an admission o£ guilt on behalf of the government . How do we tell that a caribou is nervous? The minister says in his statement - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh , oh' 11R .SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR . HANCOCK: - that the caribou are showing signs of nervousness . How do \ile tell when the caribou are nervous, Mr. Speaker? The caribou in that area - SOME HON .MEMB.ERS : MR . SPEAKER: MR. .

HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please ! - are going to be destroyed. Order, please! I know we cannot expect to have absolute silence but the Chair would like to hear what is being said and I am sure the han . member would like to be heard . The hen . member . MR . HANCOCl<: ThaRk you, Mr . Speaker. If you o nly have a minute and a half you have to speak fa st. 8342 -

July 8,1981 Tape No. 3142 ah-2 MR. HANCOCK: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is true that parts of the road are ordered to be shut down and I think that the entire section,that entire

section of road should be shut down, Mr. Speaker. There would be no need for this project at all if his own department - and his own government had acted and started on the Lower Churhcill when they were told to start on it, Mr.Speaker. This is only a stalling tactic, Mr. Speaker. Indeed the minister admitted today that the caribou herd is in danger in that area 1 not so much by the lynx as by the road that went in there, that was put in there by his department, Mr. Speaker. It is something that should be dealt with in a proper and a serious manner, Mr. Speaker. This is a very serious situation.

SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Simms): ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Now that he reported today that Come By Chance has in fact been sold to Petro-Canada,the question I would ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is have there been any changes in the agreements or the commitments made by the Province to Petro-Canada since the minister tabled the letter in the House after the last set of negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think I can honestly say that there have not been any changes. Now the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will understand that since that time there have been discussions of any number of points and information flows have been going on and so forth and so forth,but there had been no change 834~ -

"" = -- ·- ·- . - _.., July 8 , 1981 Tape No . 3142 ah- 3 DR. COLLINS: whatever in our agre.ement with Petro-Canada . The letter ·of agreement we have covers quite a number of points. It covers the interest of the Province, it covers the interest of the local community, it covers things contingent on what happens offshoce and so on and so forth. All these things remain i n place. There has been no change in any of those. MR. STIRLING : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon . Leader of the Opposition. 8344

.......... .,., __ . ...,,,",;;:.1«~ - -.... ,__, _ .... _A,,I~ m · e ....... _ --.. :.:.:..::.... ··- -----···· . .......:.. ·· .,__ .. _, . July 8, 1981 Tape 3143 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: Now that the agreement has been completed and there can be no confidential information to prevent the successful sale to Petro-Canada 1 would the minister now commit himself to tabling for the benefit of this House and in keeping with the Freedom of Information legislation, all the correspondence between Petro-Canada and the Province from the time that negotiations started until the conclusion of negotiations?

Would the minister now commit i1imself to tabling that information? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : DR. COLLINS: Oh, oh! The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, at the time we were communicating with Petro-Canada, I am sure it was understood by Petro-Canada when they were communica-ting with us it was from that organization to government: I am sure they did not _ have it in their minds that they were writing public documents. I certainly would not undertake to table any communication from Petro-Canada without first clearing the matter with Petro-Canada.

I can assure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that there is nothing from our point of view that should not be tabled, these were just matters that had to be gone through to reach the successful conclusion we have reached today. So I can assure the hon. the Leader of the Op~osition there was nothing in those that is in any way against the public interest or the interests of the Province, but I really do not feel I can undertake to table someone else's corresponce without firs~ checking with them. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the han. the Leader Mr. Speaker, do I understand from the President of Treasury Board, in this case in his capacit~presumably, as Minister of Finance- 834~

,..~·:,:i::::.i...:.-oo:- - · -- July 8, 1981 Tape 3143 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: Would the minister state categorically that he will ask Petro-Canada, if they have no objection from the Provi~ce's point of view, th~t they are quite willing to table all correspondence if Petro­ Canada had no objection? That is the first part of the question. The second part of the question is as I under­ stand it from the last correspondence tabled here in the House - Mr. Speaker, the reason that it is very difficult to accept his assurance is that we have been exposed to six months of fed bashing on the power corridor across Quebec.

When they eventually tabled the correspondence 1 --.·- the Minister of Mines and Energy- provincially and federally­ there was correspondence tabled in which that was agreed to back in December, 1980, and for the last six months we have had nothing but fed bashing. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please~ Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Now, Mr. Speaker, getting back to the question ~ As I understand it, the Province has no objection to tabling all the correspondence.

And as for the last correspondence tabled here, the Province had washed its hands completely of the Corne By Chance refinery, that it had given over to Petro-Canada __ _ B34R

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3144 so - 1 MR. STIRLING: a complete understanding that if Petro-Canada were to buy it, this was the last tabled correspondence, if Petro-Canada were to buy it they would be free completely to do with it what they wanted. If they did a feasibility study and found that it . could not be- HR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. STIRLING: That is the question. MR. SPEAKER: What is the question. MR. STIRLING: That is the question, Mr. Speaker, It requires a

preamble because - SOME HON. MEMBERS' MR. SPEAKER:

preamble. MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh! ' I believ>e I have allowed a fair - the minister was not preoared to table the correspondence, and I am telling him what was in the last correspondence. Is it true-r will get to the question, Mr. Speaker- that the'position of the Province is that it is now owned entirely by Petro-Canada, the Province has no interest in it, the Province is not contributing anything to its upkeep, and the Province has given Petro-Canada its complete agreement that it can either rehabilitate it if it is feasible or scrap it if it is not feasible? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it was a long question but it was a long something; there was a question in there somewhere. I can answer very quickly~ Petro­ Canada has bought the refinery so they are the owners. Secondly, the Province certainly has inter~ts in the refinery, it will continue to have interests in the refinery,and it will do its upmost to make sure that the refinery if at all possible is rehabilitated and returned to production and that the matters that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) e347

·~ -·-;;ii'Y;;p -- -~ ·--·~ July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3144 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: is inquiring about now , those are all contained in the letter of agreement which was tabled in this House. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear. Final supplementary, Mr. Sp~aker. Final supplementary, the hon. As I understand it, the minister has now said that the Province has an interest.

Does the Province have any ongoing financial interest or has there in fact been a change since the letter which said that if Petro-Canada, in its judgment, does not find it feasible to re-open that it can now be ·scrapped? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the Province does not have a direct f~nancial interest. When I say direct , by that I mea.n that the Come By Chance refinery is obviously if not in, thei1 very near a ccmnunity so the Province, obviously, has a financial interest in the community in terms of being near the refinery.

I mean, we have an interest in every community in terms of putting in infrastructure, in terms of whatever the government is called on to do. So we have a financial interest in the area in that regard, but we have no direct financial commitment or interest in the refinery a.s such. In terms of scrapping, that is a purely hypothetical question. I think it is the last thing that is in Petro-Canada' ·s mind, the very last thing. MR. STIRLING: But you have gi ·ven up any objection. DR. COLLINS: I can assure the hon.

Leader of the Opposition that Petro-Canada has no intention of scrapping, that would be something that would be forced upon them in the most unusual circumstances,and we would certainly encourage them to do otherwise , very strongly 1 and we have a commitment - from them that if they have to take an action other than to rehabilitate or reactivate . th .at they will consult with. the Province. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. b34R

~~~)1-;...;..,~~~;.;.:,..., ....... ~ ~ \e&N'')SJ)'i't "~ - ~ July 8. 1981 Tape No. 3145 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER(Simrns): The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans . MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) too re.the oil refinery and the assumption 1 the purchasing of the refinery. My question is to the minister. The minister indicated in his statement that Petro-Canada had indicated that they were - and it is the Province's wish of course- that the refinery be reactivated.

Could the minister indicate whether or not Petro-Canada has indicated when any work towards the reactivation of that refinery will start? With regards to reactivation, what is Petro-Canada's intention with regards to the reactivation of the refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to equivocate,but I can tell the hon. member that Petro-Canada is evennow working on rehabilitating and reactivating. In fact,they have been working for months. Now it has been at the sort of study stage, research stage and -negotiation stage.

It has not been at the active,shall we say,construction stage. MR. FLIGHT: When will that come? DR. COLLINS: I do not know when that stage will come. I have no information if Petro-Canada knows, but I know that their intention is to proceed to the construction stage, the physical stage one might say at the earliest possible moment if that moment comes. MR . FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker,it is a well-known fact that one of the reasons, one of the problems in reactivating Come by Chance is an oil supply.

Has Petro-Canada indicated to the minister and the Province where that oil supply might come from in order to enable e34~

.-•= '3M - - - -~'-~c.:.;.=::c:_·,~ .. ·- ---· ··-: July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3145 IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: them to reactivate Come by Chance? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Tile hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, in our previous discussions with Petro~Canada those sorts of points came up and there ·were possibilities discussed and so on and so forth. We have not had recent discussions with Petro-Canada along those lines because the court action took an extended period of time and that really put'hold'on everything until the court action was out of the way.

We will now expect at some point in the not too distant future that Petro-Canada will either come to us to have further discussions with us or we will initiate discussions. But there have been no recent discussions on the definitive that the hon. member brought up because it was not appropriate to have discussions. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance well knows that the Minister of Energy (Mr.

Barry) some short time ago, a month or two ago, indicated to the Province that the reactivation of the oil refinery at Come by Chance had to be part of the development plans of the operators of our offshore, that no development plans will be approved by this Province unless those development plans included the reactivation of Come by Chance. Now is that the oil supply we are talking about? If Petro-Canada is not prepared or cannot reactivate the refinery until is available,which is five or six years, would the minister indicate what Petro-Canada's reaction is to that?

Has Petro-Canada indicated a willingness to this government to continue 835n

Ell:tlia;m •••••c :7'~~ . ...,~ .. "-'· ....... ·M~- .... "',......., .... .__..:a,n;:,.. .• 1. ·gr ••• .....,_, * ::=-zt:- -- ··- July 8, 1981, Tape 3146, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: mothballing that refinery, keeping it in a shape where it indeed can be reactivated as the Minister of Energy(Mr. Barry) said it would have to be? Has Petro-Canada accepted the responsibility of paying the mothballing costs on that refinery for the n.ext five or six year ;; until Hibernia is a"vailable 1 as was the commitment made by the Minister of Energy within the past month? MR. SPhBKER(Simms): The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that anyone really can say at this point in time when Hibernia oil will become available. I do not think anyone can say when it will become available. And no one has ever stated they know exactly when it will become available. But I think it is everyone•s perception that it will not become available for a considerable period of time; it is not going to be next week, it is not going to be next month, it likely will not be next year.

Onr hope is that the Come by Chance refinery will not have to await the access to Hibernia crude for its rehabilitation, our hope is that there will be activity out there SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: the Hibernia crude is available. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order! - and positive action before A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Grand Bank(Mr. Thoms) yields for a supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, we all hope that Petro-Canada can start reactivating the refinery tomorrow, or next week or whenever, from whatever source of ~351

~- :--: .:::.::-;-:- - - J ............... 1 -. ~ ~-- --- -• a July 8, 1981, Tape 3146, Page 2 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: oil is possible. But I want to ask the minister again, because the Minister of Mines and Energy(Mr. Barry) was speaking for the Government of this Province in this past month when he said they would not accept any development plans re the offshore unless those development plans included the reactivation of Corne By Chance, Hibernia would stay there forever. Now, what I am asking the minister, has Petro­ Canada accepted that refinery on that basis?

Because the minister has told the people of this Province that there will be no development MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER{_Sirnms): Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: As I understand the question , Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is asking the same question he asked a moment ago which was - MR. FLIGHT: No, I am not. MR. MARSHALL: - quite adequately answered by the Minister of Finance.

The rules are quite clear that you cannot ask the same question the second time in the same Question Period, or multiply one with slight variations. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: It is obviously, again, another attempt to cut ·into our Question Period. It is not a point of order. It is a separate question and probably the most important question to be answered, dealing with Corne By Chance, and the y will not answer it, Mr. Speaker. 8.35?.

July 8, 1981, Tape 3146, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Well, with respect to the point of order,everybody .is aware of the rule that you cannot ask the same question t-wice. However, the Chair will have to plead ignorance because I am not sure if it is the same question or not. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: It is not, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the hon . the member for Windsor - Buchans to ask his question. MR. FLIGHT: If it is the same question I will rephrase the question for the Minister of Finance.

Does the Minister of Finance support the position taken by th .e Minister of Mines and Energy when he said that ' there would be no development plans approved for our offshore unless those development plans includes the reactivation of Come by Chance? And was that policy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order!

And did the minister make sure that that policy was relayed to Petro-Canada and, therefore, now, the people of this Province have the right to assume that Petro-Canada will assume the mothballing costs of that refinery until such time as we have oil available for the refinery? Now, does the minister suonort the Minister of Mines and Energy and did he tell Petro­ Canada such? MR. SPEAKER: Finance. MR. MORGAN: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hen. the Minister of He did not sa y that. He did say that. Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, this government has stated that the Corne by Chance refinery is part of our strategy for the development of the e35~ -

·-"---~-= --- :;~,'/;J,=-'""::.Z.'T.~:;:'~=~~-:.;,. July 8, 1981 Tape 3147 PK - 1· DR. COLLINS: offshore. It remains part of our strategy. Secondly, I am not going to give the hon. member an assurance - MR. HISc'oci: In other words, you do not know when it is coming on stream. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! DR. COLLINS: Would you be quiet until I answer the question, please? Your colleague asked it MR. BARREIT: The crow from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) is at it again. DR.COLLINS: I am not going to give the hon. member an assurance that we will keep that refinery closed until Hibernia comes on.

If we can get that refinery open, if there is crude ava.p.a_el~ __ i:!J?.<l t!).ere a)Ce mar~ets available, and there is expertise available, and the fundin$J available and all these sorts of things, if those are all available before Hibernia goes on, I am not going to give an assurance that we will not rehabilitate and reopen the refinery and just await Hibernia c.nrle. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Thank you very much- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: -Mr. Speaker. I have a question I would like to direct to the - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, order! MR. THOMS: - a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Justice!Mr. Ottenheimer). As the minister may realize now, a recent decision of the Supreme Court of Canada has effectively stripped the Residential Tenancies Board of all its power and authority - 8354

.,...,--...,----.,----- . --- .. - July 8, 1981 Tape 3147 PK - 2 AN HON . MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: This is the effect of the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. Could the minister indicate any plans he now has as far as the Residential Tenancies Board is concerned in this Province , what your intentions are now that they have been stripped of their authority? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, it will be recalled that when the House was debating the amendments of The Residential Tenancies Board this matter came up and the position I stated then, and it has not changed,is that certainly the Supreme Court decision in terms of eviction notices,co~nliance orders, in that area that the Supreme Court of Canada, the effect of that decision is to deny any jurisdiction in these areas to Regional Tenancies Boards in this Province or comparable boards in other provinces -and as the hon. !liE!llber will know it was an appeal originating out of an Ontario board.

Our decision at the time was that naturally those areas of jurisdiction which had to be transferred to the Court, the District Court, ;.-,ould obviously had to be so done,but this obviously makes it a someWhat longer and more complicated procedure. But that those areas which were not in our opinion affected by the Supreme Court of Canada decision,would not be put in the District Court. And it is our understanding that in the area of the setting of rents that the effect of the Supreme Court of Canada judgment will not affect the jurisdiction B35S -

_._...::.._.::-.-: .. :: .. -: --· ·- July 8,1981 Tape No. 3148 ah-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: of the :Recrinn"l 'T'enancies Board in this Province for the setting of re!).ts;_ for matters of eviction, compliance orders, yes, and that whole area has been transferred to the district court . But it is our understanding that in the setting of rents, which is an important and specific area of concern and activity, that specific area,and the jurisdiction of the Regional Tenancies Board in that area was not affected by the Supreme Court of Canada decision.

Obviously it is a matter we will have to continue to follow but that the decision as of now would not in our opinion effect the rent setting capacity of the Regional Tenancies Board. MR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. --.-·--- --- MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Maybe I am missing something, but the minister says that it does not effect as far as the setting of rents is concerned.

Butif the board cannot issue orders to landlords and tenants in connection with the setting of rents,what method is there now for them to make sure that landlords 1 for exarnple,comply with the orders of the Residential Tenancies Boards, or,for that matter, what method is there for the Residential Tenancies Board to make tenants comply with the decisions of the Residential Tenancies Board? I mean the absence of compliance orders, it seems to me,would effect setting rents and every other aspect of it because they have no authority there. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, it is our understanding,and by that I mean not only mine but the B35R

s -:-.--;-----·-... · -- - - .~_, ...... - ---- .... ... -- m July 8 , 1981 Tape No . 3148 ah- 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: professional advisors that . 1o1e have in the department, that in the area of the setting of rents and also the requirement that a rent set by the Regional Tenaneies Board be i n fact the rent charged , that there the jurisdiction of the board has nqt been affected.

In other words ,let us say that a landlord appl i es to a Regional Tenaneies Board for an increase in rent- thisis hypotl').etical - from $300 to $385, and s~~e tenants make known their wish to appear before the board and to argue for a different rent,and the board, after hearing argument, etc ., come to the decision that the landlord may increase the rent to the amount of $350.­ or maybe not increase it at all or whatever,but let us say to $350 - then it is within the jurisdiction o£ the board, as we understand i t,to make that finding ana that it would be illegal 1 because it is withln the jurisdiction G>f the board to make the finding ,then it ;.,rould be illegal for a landlord to cha r ge a rent in ~xcess of what the Regional Tenancies Board decided could be charged.

That is our understanding. MR . THOMS: supplementary . · MR . SPEAKER (Simms): MR. THOMS: to me to be no question nol' Mr. Speaker , a final The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker,- there seems but that the.wnrk thar. the tl357

.~ .... ~...~~-· "-.;;n:r --= ·~ July. 8, 19 81 Tape 3149 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: Residential Tenancies Board and its chairman would have to do would be certainly substan­ tially reduce from what it has been in the past.

Now, in view of the fact that we are paying a retainer to a chairman of the board something like $15,000 a year, plus the fact that we are paying the chairman of the board $200,or some portion thereof,for every day that he sits and hears meetings, is the minister contemplating either doing away with a chairman of the board as we now find it and reducing the board so that we are not involved in what is a fairly expensive cost to the Province now of the chairman - and I am not talking about the individual, but the position itself which pays $15,000 plus $200 a day, plus we have some very expensive offices, I understand, that were set up by the previous - So is there any intentions on the part of the minister and his department to scale down the Residential Tenancies operation in the city?

MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman will recall, of course, the appointment of the new chairman and, if you wish, the reorganization there was undertaken before the Supreme Court of Canada decision and obviously before government had any way of knowing the effect on the jurisdiction of the board.

And certainly, that is a matter, you know, the fact that their jurisdiction has now altered is certainly a matter that we are aware of; their jurisdiction has altered and their work has altered,and I would say that what we will do is we will sort of take a six month period and be able to judge to what extent it is altered, and obviously, it may well be necessary then to make these certain kinds of changes in terms of personnel and remuner­ ation. But I think what we should do is sort of have a ~35A

-l:l:ZZI:II~-- -- --·-......:o-...,.....,. "" -- ---···-,_- July 8, 1981 Tape 3149 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER : s~ month period to get a realistic assessment because it is only about a month ago that these cha .nges of jurisdiction became operative. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon . the member for LaPoile . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young). He was in his seat there a few moments ago and - here he is, coming back now, so the question - AN HON. MEMBER: ask him a question. MR.

NE;!UtY: You told him you were going to No, I did not tell him I was going to ask him a question, but he is on his way back. The question I want to ask the Minist .er of Public Works has to do with a long tradition of the Safety Coun~il carrvina out motorcycle safety progral!lilles on the parking lots of Confederation Building. My understanding is now that the Sa£ety Council and the progral!lille has been kicked of .£ the lot .s around Confederation Building. Would the hon. gentleman tell the House what was'behind this?

Why was it necessary to kic .k this very valuable safety programme off the parking lots around Confederation Building? t:l35~

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3150 RA - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon . Minister of Public Works. :~ . H. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if it is a long tradition, but r have nothin9'to do with kicking un~ess anyone kicked the bucket. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. YCXJNG: There is no one ~ kicked - SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! M.R. SPFA\KFR: Order, please! MR. YOUNG: - there is no one ~ ki.cked off the parking iot, Sir. We did give motor cycle safety people permission to use the parking lot until the 9th of June, it was extendP.n. to the 8th of July - MR. STIRLING! Why can you not extend it again? MR.

YOONG: I felt that because of secu .rity reasons and so forth that it is better not to do it. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPF;AT{F:J'I .: Order! MR. HANCCCK: What, were they carrying quns on their bikes, were they? MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. SOME BON. MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER: MR . CJI'I'ENHEIRMER : AN RON . MEMBER: MR . SPEAKYJ'I· MR. HANCOCl'< : was he? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! A supplementary. The hon. member for Oh. oh! Order, please! It is getting too disorderly . It is a big joke. Order, please! The speaker \vas not taken the course. Order! H3fln ...

------ July 8,1981 Tape No. 3150 RA-2 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I feel myself that the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Younq) , is carrying all this James Bond stuff a little bit too far. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Is the hon. gentleman aware that 200 safety certificates were passed out last year to motorcyclist who took this safety programme? It is one of the best- MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: They are better drivers, because of it. - and they are better drivers because of it and this programme is considered one of the best in Canada. And what would it have to do with the security?

Why kick him off the parking lots for security reasons? How can the hon. gentleman relate this to security? I mean, they are not inside the building, they are outside on the parking lot. And it is open to the public and properly supervised. What is the problem? The hon. gentleman certainly has not given a very satisfactory explanation . . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Wroks. MR. YOUNG: There again I feel that the hon. member for LaPoile is misinformed. The car pool, two bays were opened on weekends and when we open two bays, the whole­ car-pcol-garag.e;iscopened,-and we ·felt that for'this reason- MR.

HANCOCK: them last year? MR. YOUNG: Did you have any trouble with They were not there last year, Mr. Speaker, they were on the parking lot of the College of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: They were there last year. e361

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3150 RA - 3 MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon . member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, now is raising a hypothetical situation. SOME HON . NE~1BERS : Oh, oh ~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . C::.'P'C' 7) T~"· Order, please! MR. IIANC(Xl(: Come up with some money for the whale problem. MR . ~T'11 .R"!': Mr. Speaker, I presume that t.;hen these - SCME HON. MEMBERs: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.S.

NEARY: - I presume when the ~~ doors are open in the motor pool that there are employee s in the motor pool, there are security people aro~md tha buildinq and, Mr. Speaker, they have been on the parking lot now for a number o~ years and there have been no complaints, ·no vandalizism, no crimes committed . Why all of a sudden now ,? Is it because \o:e ;ust - SOME HON. MENBERS : Oh, oh! tJ36?.

----------~ ------ - -- ----- --- -- ----- - - - --'--- - -- - -~ -- ---- '··. ·.=-;''- '·-•-" C.-~o - -- July :).981 Tape No. 3151 IB-1 MR. NEARY: Is the government becoming paranoid? Is that the reason for it? Could the hon. gentleman justify kicking these people off the parking lot, the public parking lot? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has · expired? - ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GI VEN I MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry),I table the answer to the question raised by the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) appearing on the Order Paper of March 12, 1981. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: It is my understanding that there is a - MR. STIRLING: Mr . Spe .aker. MR. MARSHALL: Oh, he wants to make the announcement himself. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well,if I may. I have already been advised by the two House leaders to mention this. Does the bon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) wish to add something? MR. STIRLING: Yes, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, the last four items on the Order Paper are items that are very important and we may not get to them this year if the government follows its normal course. MR. MARSHALL: Five, fiv:e. MR. STIRLING: So that we approach ed the government and ag~eP.~ to give-the fifth one is not a city matter - on four items we approached the government 836~

-- ----~ . ._: :;-..!·l!""':'~:-:::.:..-:.:: .';':.~:~;,::·--··--~~~- July 1981 Tape No. 3151 IB-2 MR. STIRLING: and said we would be prepared to give up Private Member's Day on the understanding that these very vital matters to the city and to municipalities generally would be brought forward before this term expires, and that is why we are giving up Private Member's Day,to 'deal with this important legislation which the government feels goes to the end of the Order Paper and that is why. we have given up Private Member's Day today, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : MR. MARSHALL: The hon.

President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I have to respond. I do not think it is really necessary to respond and neither do I think the remarks the hon. gentleman made were really nece~sary. The fact of the matter is,whatever the hon. gentleman's impression this is Private Member's Day and of course we are gladiit is not just the Opposition it is all members in the House who have given up Private Member's Day and we will proceed with government business.

But as to the hon. gentleman's fear that we might never have gotten to th.em, that is completely unfounded because,as we have said,we intend to pass all of the orders of business that the government wishes to pass,amongst which are these. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Now with respect, I understand that there is an agreement to forego Private Member's Day to deal with certain government orders on the Order Paper and also, it being Wednesday,the House will adjourn at six of the clock without question put,as is the usual procedure. Is that agreed? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Order 42, Bill No. 9~. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An .~ct To Amend The St. John's Municipal Elections Act". (Bill No. 91). ~364

- ··-~ · - - -- July 8, 1981 Tape Nc. 3151 IB-3 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hen. President of the CounciL MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have a great deal of pleasure in introducing this bill on behalf .of the Minister o f Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Ne1-.rhook), 1·1ho had a long sta nding engagement in her district and being very concerned about the affairs of her district is out there today and that is why she is not here to ~r ~sent it herself as she most certainly would. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. 1>1ARSHALL: You know, Mr. Speaker, 8355

·---·----------... ···--- July 8, 1981 MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 3152 I do not mind replying - Order, please! SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: - to humour when it is good humour, Mr. Speaker, but I do not choose to when it is bad. I would like to have silence while I introduce the bill 1 if I may. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. President of the Council LMr. Marshall)_ wishes to be heard in silence; that is his right. I would a·sk bon. members to adhere to the rules. The bon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, this is a bill which has been brought in to facilitate certain changes that are going to be made within th.e boundaries of the city of St. John's. It is also a bill, Mr. Speaker, that has been brought in in conformity with negotiations and consultations that have taken place between the minister and the government of the Province and, the councillors and the city of St. John's.

What th.±s bill will do, quite simply, it wil.l enable residents of areas which are not presently in the city at the present time but may be in the city at the time when the municipal election is called,to vote in th.at munic±pal election. At the present time you have to be a resident, I am not sure whether it is six months or a year, but there is a certain residency period that you have to be within the city limits for that period of time. And one of th.e main purposes of this bill is to enable those res±dents who may be taken within the boundaries of the city to vote. Also~ Mr.

Speaker, there is a provision here to allow for. the implementation and adaptation of a ward. system in the city of St. John •· s. If a ward system takes pl.a,ce in the city of St. John'·s,that has to be, of course, a matter which is of concern to the council, it has to, first of a,ll, be voted by the council and indeed there has to be a 836R -

- July 8,1981 Tape No. 3152 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: two-third vote of the council in order to implement this. The decision of the council, of course, is subject to approval, which is normal, by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. Now I want to emphasize, so that it does not get distorted, that this is not the adaptation of a ward syst~m as such, but it is enabling a ward system to come into effect in the city of St. John-•s , if in the wisdom of all people int~rested and all representatives interested, it is deemed to be appropriate.

There are also provisions in the bill, a companion to the first item that I mentioned about residents being able to vote, people who are within the wider area of the city, who will be paying taxes to the city, should also be entitled to offer themselves as candidates, which is there as well. There are other clauses - clauses 5 and 6 of the bill dispenses with a practice that has been in vogue in the city for many years and that is you vote by way of voting card. And we have all done this formany, many, many years.

The city has requested that this be pispensed with, the government has agr:~d, and I understand there is going to be a considerable saving to the city as a result of this particular amendment this year, and it will enable the municipal council election to be alble to take place more effectively. Another clause, Mr. Speaker, will 8367

July 8/1981 Tape 3153 EC - l MR. MARSHALL: allow candidates' names to appear on the ballot paper by the names by which they are commonly called. Now, that is not a nickname. I could think of a number of names now, a number of interesting names we could put on if the members opposite were running in the city council, Mr. Speaker, and I know, my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) could do even much better. But in the interest of the co-operation that we have today, Mr.

Speaker, I will not try to make small political points, as the Leader of the Opposition did a few moments ago and I will just leave it at that. I think it enables also very importantly, Mr. Speaker - Clause 8 will very importantly enable again the councillors to be extended to a maximum of ten members from its present compliment of eight. So that is the gist and the principle of the act, Mr. Speaker. I will not keep the House for any length of time talkinq ~urther on it. I will make any comments in answering and closinq the debat ,~.

All I would say to the House in introducing the bill is I would hope that hon. gentlemen would stick closely to the principle of the bill and be relevant. We are into the SmTh~er now and it is getting to be a long, hot Summer, and it will be much hotter, I know, as we get on in the weeks of July and August and into September. But the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, I do not choose - I would hope that this would not develop into, you know, that type of debate - but, of course, we know the way the Opposition is, and I think hopes are vain expressed to that end from this side of the House, but I will sit down and listen to their intelligent comments and respond afterwards. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Before I recognize the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I would like hon. members to join me in welcoming to the gallery today, the Deputy Mayor ~36A -

July 8, 1981 Tape 3153 BC - 2 ~m . SPEAKER (Simms} : of St. John 's, Deputy Mayor O'Neill and Councillor Innes, both representing the City of St. John's . Welcome. SO~ffi HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON . MEMBER: Councillor Duff is there too. MR . SPEAKER: r am also advised that Councillor Duff is there in the gallery as well . Welcome to her as well. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: The hon . the Leader of the Opposition. Mr . Speaker, Councillor Duff may go unnoticed by the Speaker, but I tell you, she will not go unnoticed by the people of St. John 's.

SOME HON. ~ffiMBERS : Hear, hear! . MR. STIRLING: Mr . Spea~er, Ltoo, welcome the m.embers of the St . John's council. This particular act, I do not think anybody will have any serious objection to, except that it is indicative, as the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) quite rightly says, it is one of those acts where we can point out that the government does not know what they are doing about this,like many other things. They are now anticipating some boundary changes which they are keeping secret . The Powell Commission has recommended some boundary changes; the City of St . John's has to 836!1 -

July 8,1981 Tape No. 3154 ah-1 MR. STIRLING: anticipate that there are going to be some boundary changes, they ~ave to anticipate so that they can enumerate,and this piece of legislation, Bill 91, provides for the enumeration of these mysterious people who are somehow inside the-city limits or will be when the election comes along.· Now, Mr. Speaker, I had anticipated that we would have a tabling of the Powell Commission today to get away from this great secret, and it is typical of the approach that the government is using in that they are bringing in this legislation.

It might have been brought in after the end of November if we had not spotted it in its place and brought it forward and gave up Private Member's Day in order to deal with it, Mr.Speaker. There is no question that it is the initiative of the Opposition that brough this forward today and the President of the Council should have the good grace to admit_ it in his long hot Summer day. So, Mr.

Speaker, the first problem­ and I would expect that the minister has now sent out for copies of the_ Powell Oxmllssion to be tabled so that the great secret as to who these people are that are going to be enumerated, that are going to be brought within the boundaries of the city,will no longer be a secret. The authority for a ward system: of course,nobody has any objection to that. The city is quite competent in making that decision. And there are a couple of other clauses, getting rid of the voting cards, no objection to that,and the same thing with the names.

I can remember once when Bob Lewis had to have Clarence Engelbrecht put on the nomination papers. He was better known as Bob Lewis. I am glad that the President of the Council pointed out that this is only 837n -

July 8,1981 · Tape No. 3154 ah-2 MR.STIRLING: enabl~ng legislat~on because , based on the secrets contained in the Powell Commission and the decisions to be made by the government 1 it may very well be that the council may decide that they do not want ten councillors. I am sure that if you had a referendum in the city of St. John ' s today they would agree that the~ do not need eleven MHAs representing the city of St. John's,because the work of the MHAs in the city of St. John's is all done by the city council .

But I think that they should have the authority to decide whether or not it should be eight or ten depending on the extension to the boundaries, Mr . Speal<:er. It would be interesting, it would be '!Very. interesting to see in this vote coming up in November if the taxpaye ·rs of the city would like to save the salaries of about at least half of the members representing the city of St . John's. The city of St . John ' s ~an be very ably represented by the council and by about four or five members, four or five members at the most. But eleven members is a great extravagance for the city of St .

John's and I bet tba·t if they had the nerve to put it on a referendum, 8 3 7 'I -

July 8,1981 Tape No. 3155 IB-1 MR. STIRLING: that if the government was ' honestly interested in saving money which they could turn over to the city to spend,that you would find that there would almost be unanimous agreement in the city that the city does not need eleven members and that maybe five or six would be the most that would be r.equired. So, Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House we are very pleased that the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) made the point that the clauses in this bill are in agreement with the discussions with council.

And I would hope that he can say the same thing as we debate a couple of the other acts, Mr. Speaker. And I would adjourn the debate on our side unless somebody wants to speak on it. But essentially there is no problem with this act and we should pass it without anymore delay. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. President of the Council. If the hon. member speaks now he closes the debate. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to ·make a couple of observations on what the hon. member said. The Powell Commission Report will be made public, Mr.

Speaker, in due course and in quite adequate tirne,as well as whatever results from the Powell Commission Report. I want to,though,at this particular tirne,and particularly I think because certain members of the council are present in the Chamber today, to make one observation. Now I do not know, it has been reported to me, I cannot say that I heard it myself so I am repeating what you call hearsay,but it carne to me time and time again from various people, to the effect that one of the areas in the city of St. John's or adjacent to the city of St.

John's which had been considered from the point of view of boundary extension, i.e. 1 the East Meadows area which is 837?.

-· ~ '-· ----· - ·-~~·~...c.,\·····•.••..;..'"';,;;_ July 8, 1981 .Tape No . 3155 IB -2 MR. MARSHALL: between Wedgewood Park and the boundaries of the city and the Eastern extremities ­ runety -nine per cent of the hon . members opposite would not know because they do not know much about the city of St. John • s - but anyway, Mr. Speaker, in the East Meadows area there was the popular impression around that if the people from East Meadows went into the city of St . John's thei r taxes would ra is e five times, six times, seven times and so forth.

And I am given to understand that this - I do not know the source of it, I am not saying that - but the impression around is that the MR. STIRLING: _t~R. SPEAKER (SI~IS) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. A po~nt of order, the hon . Mr . Speaker, this question of taxes and Ea st Meadows has nothing to do with this act which has to do with elections . It has nothing to do with the taxes and there is a more approriate act coming up later that this should be debated under and that has to do with either the assessment Act or the City of St. John 's Act .

But this is an elections act and, Mr . Speaker, in the interests of sticking with the point I think that the President of the Council should resist the temptation to get into a long debate on this and get on with the debate. He was not being relevant in talking about taxes . This has to do with the elections . H37~

July 8, 1981 Tape 3156 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order, the hon. Presiden t of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am not intended to get into a long debate, neither am I intending to take any directions from the hon. gentleman. The fact of the matter is not a bill on taxes, Mr. Speaker, that is agreed, but I am talking about a matter pertaining to boundaries. MR. STIRLING: This has ~othing to do with boundaries. MR.MARSHALL: It most certainly does. The boundaries - MR.

SPEAKER: Now with ~espect to the point of order, Beauchesene states "relevanc y is very difficult to define , and in all cases the member speaking is given the benefit of the doubt. " The hon·. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Of course, as I said, you know, the impression around, and I just want to point and underscore that this makes it extremely difficult when people are given the impression ~ now whether they got the impression from council or not I do not know, but the indication was - that it carne from City Council; that may be right and it may be wrong, but the fact of the matter is that is the situation and that in one area makes implementation of any changes rather difficult. But I am going to leave that point now because that is a matter, as I say, will re veal i tsel "f in due course. MR.

STIRLING: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 8374

July a, 1981 Tape 3156 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms): A point of order has been raised. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A point of order, ~tr . Speaker. In this House the City Council cannot take

part in the debate ~or defend themselves . He has now gone ahead casting aspersions on something that came out of Council and Council cannot defend themselves . I would ask the President of the Counc -il (l-1r. Marsh.all) to withdraw any suggestion that this was spread by the City Council and let him make his simple point - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh , Qh ! MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. STIRLING: - that this is a rumour and he wanted to clear it up. And he said he did not know whether it was Council or not. SOME HON. MEMBER.<>: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: that comment about the Council. MR . SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order! I would ask him to withdraw Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! That does not constitute a point o.f order. There was no remarks made about other members of this House or anything of that nature . No point of order. The hon. President of the Council. HR . !>1ARSHALL : You know, Mr • Speaker , that is outrageous . That goes to show, Mr. ·Speaker, why the hon . gentleman is so small - minded that he is never going to move from the left to the right of this Chamber. I was casting 837S --

July 8, 1981 Tape 3156 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: no asperations on anyone, I was making an observation , and I make an observation in relation to the relevancy of this which is related to the boundary changes and how boundary changes can become difficult when statements like that are attributed to people. So, Mr. Speaker, "'" I 'lay this is a forward act and one that we are glad to bring before the House,after consultation with the Council, after weighting the representations of Council and I think it fully embraces all of the concerns of Council itself. And I have much pleasure in moving second reading. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, "An Act To ArneRd The Municipal Elections Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 41, Bill No. 44 Motion, second reading, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act." (Bill No. 44). MR. SPEAKER: The bon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is

an act that is a areat step forward. I think this can be called the Morgan Maqnificat, really because it happened- Mr. Speaker, the main thr~st of this is to preclude and prevent houses of people being taken and sold for taxes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: And the main reason why - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: The main reason, Mr. Speaker, why this bill is before this House today, pretty well the sole reason why it is before this House today , is because of representations made by the bon. member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), the Minister of Fisheries, B37R -

----- --· · - July 8, 1981 Tape 3156 PK - 4 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: in connection with the matter. And it is contained, ~377

July 8, 1981, Tape 3157, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, in clause 7 of the bill. I want to read this out so that it will .be understood. 'Notwithstanding this section, real property that is occupied for fulltime residential purposes by the owner, not including a person deemed to be an owner under

section 113' - which is a landlord - 'shall not be sold for tax arrears by council so long as it is so occupied.' Now, Mr. Speaker. I feel that this is a very good step forward. The fact of the matter is, I think that most councils within the Province of Newfoundland would not sell a house which is owner occupied, for taxes. I do not know myself. Certainly in the city of St.

John's- and people look at the ads that have occurred in the newspapers in this city in recent times,because they have made an effort to collect taxes, and I think that you will find,pretty well without exception, that these houses are houses that are o~ed by landlords, by absentee landlords. It has not been the policy of the City Council, and it certainly has not been the policy,either, of other councils in this Province to sell owner-occupied houses in order to satisfy taxes. But in order, Mr. Speaker, because of the representation made by the member for Bonavista South(Mr.

Morgan), the Minister of Fisheries­ the Minister of Fisheries, you explain this to him and he says that is all right, that is fine. But,you know, we are in here now,and we are in here for fifteen, twenty or thirty years, however long it is, and one of these days there might be another aberration that might occur and the hon. gentlemen there opposite might get back in power again and one .never knows what will happen at that particular time. So, Mr. Speaker, in order to safeguard it, and in order to enshrine it - to enshrine it, Mr. Speaker, is almost like a constitutional e37A -

July 8, 1981, Tape 3157, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: provision. As a result I say, of what the hon. the member for Bonavista South (.Mr. Morgan) has done , he has made this provision into law so that now there can be no council take an owner­ occupied house and sell it for taxes. Now, this does not mean, Mr. Speaker, that other safeguards will not apply. There are provisions in these acts that taxes will rank ahead of mortgages, there are provisions for the council to still have the right to same when a house is sold. If a house is sold,council has the right to collect its taxes from the proceeds.

That is only fair. But there is not a single family in Newfoundland or Labrador that can now ever be afraid, eVer again, that as a result of imposition of municipal taxes within their municipalities, that they can possibly lose the horne which they or their families occupy. Mr. Speaker, that is the highlight of the bill. There are other provisions with respect to it as well. For instance, clauses 1, 8 and 10, provide that an order extending the boundaries of a town or community may have effect on a different date for municipal elections and for other purposes. And this has to be.

Sometimes you might extend the boundaries and you extend the boundaries for November elections. You may not be able to get all of the other attributes applicable to it in that·particular time. We also have a provision here that the clause, clause 3, will enable towns, which may use the ward system also, to fix the number of councils there are to be elected at large. At present there is no provision for election of councils at large, where a ward system may be put in place. 837~ -=-

July 8, 1981, Tape 3157, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: so, ~tr. Speaker, there are other provisions there. l will wait and see if hon. members opposite make any comment with respect to these things. But, of course, the main part of the bill, as I say, is this provision to prevent the sale of owner­ occupied premises. It is being brought in as a result of the efforts of the hon. the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). I know the non. the member for Bonavista North(Mr.

Stirling) will perhaps now like to get up in his place when he is speaking in debate, and offer his apologies to this House and to the people of Newfoundland for the scare tactics in which he was engaged in Bonavista Town now too long ago, when he tried to give a different impression. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, despite what the hon. Leader of the Opposition attempted to do at his very small meeting ,l.,hich was attended by his few supporters in the Liberal Party, and was really an embarrassment to the lion. me .rnber, the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oo, oh! MR. SPEAKEE(Simrns): Order! Order ! MR .

MARSHALL: - non . member did a disservice to this Province by attempting to - MR . NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: there were no grounds tJ3FJn Order! Order, please! - stir up fears where lll:'.l:li:C

-- July 8, 1981 Tape 3158 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: for these fears in the first place, because, as I say, towns have not taken owner-occupied homes to satisfy taxes. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! If I may, I wish to raise a point of order on my own. I believe it has been ruled in the past that the term 'scare tactics', or to attribute the term 'scare tactics' to another hon. member is not acceptable in this House and has.been ruled unparliamentary. I would ask the hon. the President of the Council if he would not mind withdrawing those remarks. MR. MARSHALL: Quite happily, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly would not want to say a·nything unparliamentary or to convey anything that was against the rules of this House, but I think I made my point. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. the President of the Council. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, it is not unusual for the President of the Council to be saying things that are unparliamentary. And we have to be very careful, because the President of the Council is an absolute master.

The last time I said what he was a rna~ter of, it was ruled unparliamentary, but the minister knows what he is a master of. And let us, just for the sake of Hansard - not for the sake of anything else,because the government has gotten so used to being able to get away with a glib propaganda statement; they have maybe one of the best people in media relations and one of the best people in propaganda on their staff, paid full-time, well paid and earns every cent. e3B1 -

.., ;.;.;r •~··~_.__._.,..._ .._ 11..:,.,,~ -~ ~~~....._'&.Coo,•\~·.·. ~~ ---- -·• ?'!" -- July.8, 1981 Tape 3158 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: Now we are beginning to see the difference between the propaganda and the media hype and the truth. And the most recent example of that in this ~ouse, Mr.

Speaker, was the case in which, in talking about municipalities and showing the disdain that this Province has for municipalities and the intention to force themselves into the authority of municipalities, the Premier of this Province got up in this House and stated in answer to a question that I asked in the change of government polic~ about intruding and interfering and dictating to munici­ palities - the Premier of this Province got up in this House and said, 'The City of Corner Brook is not a viable municipality.' And then, Mr.

Speaker, he went on to talk about the subsidies and the grants given to that municipality - not recognizing that things had not changed - the next morning this public relations team sent out a tape to the West Coast, to Corner Brook, which clearly had the Premier's words saying, 'I do not - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): On a point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is not being relevant.

The bon. member rose on a point of order a moment ago and said that I was talking on the previous bill about taxes and it was not taxes, it was boundaries. Now, Mr. Speaker, this bill relates to the Municipalities Act, the imposition of taxes and the relief of home-owners from sale, and he is getting into an area, Mr. Speaker, which is not germane to the bill at all and he, himself, is being quite irrelevant in his remarks. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, I had indicated earlier that irrelevancy is difficult to de fine and you generally give the benefit of the doubt to the e3B?.

"""' .. ... ,~---· • ._:.. '.&:.:";.t:!..~~~ ,~~-:7::::.-:-:- July 8, 1981 Tape 3158 EC -· 3 MR. SPEAKER (Si~s) : member speaking. I will draw to the attention of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, of course, what the principle of the bill is all about and ask him to try to keep his remarks within the confines of what is found in the bill. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR _. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

We have no problems with the Speaker maintaining the rules of the House, and I would remind the Speaker that we are dealing with changes to the Municipalities Act and we are dealing with the approach . of this government to municipalities; and we are dealing with the fact that the last time we talked about municipalities in this House, the Premier said that Corner Brook was not a viable municipality, and the next day, went out to Corner Brook with a tape in which he said, 'I did not say that Corner Brook was not a viable municipality.' He did not lie in this House, that was his opinion in this House that Corner Brook was not a viable municipality.

Where he lied was in Corner Brook, in saying that he did not say it in the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is guilty of the same kind of problem that the Premier had, in that he knows nothing about municipalities and has no respect for municipalities, and he has no respect for people in municipalities. Just to bring things into proper context, the first time in this House that there was a demand for this piece of legislation was when it was brought up by my colleague, the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores), and that was in November, 1980.

It was ,in that same debate, agreed to e3a~ --

··-· ___ .., .. ______ ____ __...__ '-" '- • - '•- · -- --~--·-_...;;,_ -4\')"'! :..::l'I".J,·· ...... :; ··:: · ~· ·------------- ·-- -~ - July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3159 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), and in that same debate it was confirmed py me,that this would be Liberal policy and that we would be making this change. Because, Mr. Speaker, up until · this time -and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) shows his ignorance when he talks about what could have happened outside the city of St. John's. Outside the city of St. John's, Mr.

Speaker, they did not have the authority to sell a house for taxes. Now, Mr. Speaker, they were given that authority in the Municipalities Act and we insisted that this change be made. This was something that we said would be the first piece of business that we would deal with on assuming power. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us deal with the involvement of the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). because the member for Burgeo - Bay d ' 'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) also takes credit for it, a Cabinet minister who said that he would intercede with the minister.

Just to show you the kind of propaganda problem that the President of the Council has, every once in a while they give the people of the Province the proof that they· cannot be trusted. The government gives the proof every once in a while when they slip up on their sl~ck propaganda like, for example, when the radio stations in Corner Brook had the official transcript from Hansard saying, "The Premier said,'Corner Brook is not a viable municipality' and they had a tape from the Premier in which he said, 'I never said that'. MR. TULK: And she was over and defended him. She said that he was tired. MR.

STIRLING: And then we have the Minister of Education (MS. Verge} representing Corner Brook saying, Everything the Premier said about Corner Brook was correct' ·. And then the former r1inister of Municipal Affairs also thought that Corner Brook was being subsidized. Then when I told him where to look it up, he went out and looked it up B384

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3159 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: and carne back in and nobody yet has apologized to the city of Corner Brook, nobody from the other side has apologized to the city of Corner Brook. Now let us get back to the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) who has been given credit. I am amazed, absolutely amazed, that the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) says, 'The only reason that this is being forced through the House today' - in addition to the Opposition bringing it up, and he did not have the good grace to say the Opposition brought it up and insisted on it - 'the only reason is that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) asserted his will'. MR. NEARY: He threatened to resign. MR. STIRLING: Well, I was corning to that. Now, when did the Minister of Fisheries suddenly get interested in this question? MR. TULK: Now, that is a good question. MR. STIRLING: When did he send out his letter? MR. HOLLETT: He did not even know - (inaudible) May 21st. MR.

STIRLING: When did he send out the letter? Oh, I wonder, I wonder why it was? A message, May 21st. It happened to be the week before May 21st. MR. TULK: Oh, you were out there. MR. STIRLING: It happened to be when 500 people from Bonavista - Mr. Speaker, we have all attended political meetings in which there have been great crowds. I believe that there was even a meeting that was attended by the President of the Council that had a good crowd. MR. MARSHALL : There were 500 outside. MR. STIRLING: · Mr. Speake:r;, it was something that the President of the Council has never experienced in his life.

You just have to look at his face and you can see he never had that kind of an experience, to go into a town when the people are lined up, horns blowing, flags flying, welcomed into the town centre and the people get up and express their point of view that B385 -

July 8, HSl Tape No. 3159 SD - .3 MR. STIRLING: says, 'Ne will not accept this, we 1".ill not accept .it and we \-lill ca:ll upon our member '. So they asked us - MR. NORGAN: (Inaudib l e) . MR. STIRLING: Oh, they invited the member dO\-Tn but he did not have the ne-rve to go do\orn1 and they invited the minister and she did not go down, so they invited three members from the Opposition . Well, Mr. Speaker, they said, •what can we do? ' They said, 'You are the Leader of the Opposition, tell us. what we can do'?' And the press lvas there , Mr .

Speaker, and I said, ~Look, you have representing you in the Cabinet the most po1·1erful minister in the Cabinet ' . I was not bein9 political, I gave them the truth, l-1r. Speaker. I said, 'You have the most poloJerful minister in the Cabinet representing this district and if thi s is what you really believe - the 500 people that were inside plus whatever was lined up outside - i:f this is what you really believe you t:\3 B Fl - ~

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3160 IB-:j. MR. STIRLING: put it to your member that either he accomplishes this great Liberal reform or, 'We are going to throw you out and demand your resignation~ And a resolution was passed that night that council resign unless they could accomplish this and a member resign unless they could accomplish this. And now the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) gets up and admits that the only reason that this is going through is that the Ministor of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) forced it through the Cabinet. And how did he force it through the Cabinet?

He forced it through the Cabinet because he said, 'If you do not put this through I am going to tell all'. MR. TULK: No, he went to the Premier. MR. STIRLING: 'I am going to tell all', exactiy what he said to the ~ublic Accounts Committee. When he wa~ · in front of the Public Accounts Committee and we, four members on that side,including the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), and three on this side, found that the Minister of Fisheries had contravened the Public Tendering Act he said, "Oh, I wish I could tell all! I wish I could tell all!". AN HON. ~MBER: A fairy tale. MR.

STIRLING: It may be a tale about a fairy but you will have to judge that yourself. You know the Minister of Fisheries better than I do. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: MR. WINDSo"R: MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker - (Inaudible) good fairy. A good fairy, Mr. Speaker. Well,I am sure it is unparliamentary. No, a good fairy. I was just responding to the minister. Mr. Speaker, it may have been that same kind of thing that the minister said at the Public Accounts Committee meeting, saying, "I wish I could tell the ~387

.. ------~--- _.:=·- ::=•:~=-..;::;or:-::::. . . -·- ··- -- ---·----····· . July 8~ 1981 Tape No. 3160 IB-2 MR. STIRLING: whole story". Well, Mr. Speaker, we give full credit for this amend~ent to the people of Bonavista South. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. STIRLING: The people of Bonavista South went to their member who is the most powerful member in that Cabinet. And I am glad that the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) admitted and owned up to the fact that it is not their policy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: It is not the policy of that government to put through this amend~ent. Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) came back to be given the accolade. He may not reali~e tha~ the President of the Council just said that this is not government policy. The sole reason that it is in here is the Minister of Fisheries forced it through the Cabinet. And, Mr. Speaker, what caused the Minister of Fisheries to force it through the Cabinet? Did it have anything to do with the meeting~e his constituents demanded ..... either get this done - and, Mr. Speaker, I think one of my other colleagues is going to deal with this in a little more detail.

As I understand it, he act•.lally threatened to resign from the Cabinet. I am not sure that he did. MR. TULK: Oh, yes,he went to the Premier and said.'· - MR. STIRLING: No, he said that unless this went through he would have to consider his position MR. TULK: He went to the Premier though , and told him he was going to resign. MR. STIRLING: 'He said,'I am sure you understand that by my taking this position and action as your MHA ,I could be placing myself in a very difficult position as a Cabinet Minister,especi all y if my recommendations are not U3BR

:._;_ .;.·,, _.:_ July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3160 IB-3 MR. STIRLING: accepted and approved by government . Now, Mr. Speaker, one my colleagues will be dealing with that in a little more detail. What I want to say is that this Municipalities Act, Mr. Speaker, was forced on many rural communities. The city of St. John's can look after itself. The city of St. John's is a powerful council. The city of St. John's has the power and they are close to the power.

And so when they put through an assessment, a change in the assessment, the capital tax system, it is going to be phased in over a period.so people are not hurt by it. But in rural Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, when this new Municipalities Act carne in,, this new Munici~alities Act was brought in and was forced ~own the throats of many parts of rural Newfoundland and they cannot cope with it, Mr. Speaker. Many parts of this act have not been dealt with by the government. There should be amendments to this act now.

The only reason that we have this amendment is that there was an uprising down in BonQvista South and they admit that this is what forced it through. The act should be phased in over a number of years. Property tax should not be forced down their throats. They should be able to implement the tax over a period. Now, Mr. Speaker, we support these amendments as far as they go,but they do not go far enough. And one of my other colleagues will be dealing at some length with some of the other concerns that we have about this Municipalities Act. e3a~

~-m .::-.... •-.·\·-- w: July 8,1981 Tape No. 3161 ah-1 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, to sum up then,this Municipalities Act is

an act that I hope they will bring in the same clause-~nd when the President of the Council gets around to dealing with this, I hope that he will confirm that this same clause will be brought into the City of St. John's Act, so that no. council will have the.authority to sell an owner-occupied house for tax arrears. You can take them to court; you can attach their wages, or you can put a lien on the building, but if somebody had no other asset you should not be able to take their horne, put the family, the children out on the street. And, Mr.

Speaker, in all the years that I was on the city council, the council responded and never did take a house for that purpose. But , Mr.Speaker, in the times that we are living in, .that is an authority that no council should have.And I agree with the amendment, I want to pay tribute to my colleagues who first brought it up, a great Liberal reforrn,and it is not coincidental that it carne from the people of Bonavista South,in the town of Bonavista,when they insisted that their member either do this or resign.

NowJ of course, it is to late for him to get re-elected 1 but again it is something that should have been done by many other municipalities in order to bring to the attention of this government that you just cannot usurp the power of municipalities, and you cannot move into their area and you cannot ignore them. They are a form of government equal to the provincial or the federal levels of government. They are closer to the people . It is the best money that this government gets, the money that is spent and the time that is volunteered by all the municipalities,say,outside the city of St.

John'& They are all volunteers. Mr. Speaker, we agree to support the amendments, and pay tribute to the people of Bonavista South who forced this amendment through ~3~n

~---.:....-- --- ----- July 8,1981 Tape No. 3161 ah-2 MR. STIRLING : the House. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. HOLLETT: Mr. Speaker, I will be as brief as possible and I think that some of the amendments in Bill 44 exemplifies what was wrong with the original Act, the Municipalities Act of 1979. Mr. Speaker, there are two points I would like to make, one is concerning

Section S,where a council may now allow a discount in respect of taxes imposed up to ten per cent. ence again , in this case,I do not think the bill is specific enough. eecause what is going to happen is you are going to have variations in discounts from one neighbourhood to the next, from no discount to up to ten per cent and,in my opinion, the amount that any municipality can discount, seeing it is allowed 1 should be fixed. I think all Newfoundlanders should be treated alike in that respect. Mr. Speaker, the

section that probably exemplifies best the inadequactes of many sections in the Municipal Act,is

Section 7 in relation to 'nothwithstanding this section, real property that is occupied for fulltime residential purposes cannot be taken during the lifetime of the principle owner and what it real~y means. Mr. Speaker, I know,and anybody here who has been involve~ with the municipal system,and particularly two ex~inisters of Municipal Affairs over here, kno\< ' that this particular amendment is no"thing more than a sham·Because simply what it means is this, number one, a person either by desire or necessity cannot pay their annual assessment. Most municipalities, Mr.

Speaker, wil~ have a deadline date for this assessment to be paid. let us assume is June 30th. After that date, if the assessment is not paid,the municipality quite properly,within their 8391

~~ -- - ·-·· . -- July 8,1 981 Tape No . 3161 ah -3 MR. HOLLETT: o~-m re gulations, \..rill then bring th is owner of the property to court. The magistrate will impose a minimum of a $50 fine for non-~a ·me nt of taxes which has to be paid to the court . If ~ ~ pays this amount ,of course ,it revert s back to tJ39?

--lilliiii-L:.: ··:~ ''·---· -"'· - ...:iii July 8, 1981, Tape ~162, Page 1 -- apb MR. HOLLETT: the municipality. Later on in that year the municipality has a right to resummons that same person. And I can assure all hon. members here that if that owner comes back into court the second time within one fiscal year, the magistrate is going to at least double the fine, which will be $100. In other words, that would be $150 for that one year that the owner would be forced to pay to the court. And, Mr. Speaker.

I do not have to remind members here that if those fines are not paid the magistrate has no choice but to say thirty days or sixty days or whatever it is, and this is common practice today in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. Now, if you would care to multiply that by however many years the taxes are not paid, the municipality in itself, in a lot of cases, will be gaining more through court fines than the annual levies or assessment on properties, and this is in the process of being done right now, with or without this amendment. If you want to take that to the far end, Mr.

Speaker, what it really means is this: If an owner occupier is unable to pay taxes for an extended period, like, say, ten or fifteen years, and there are annual fines of $150 a year, that is $1500 they have either paid in fines or spent, probably, the equivalent of a year in one of Her Majesty's jails or penitentiaries. So let us not kid ourselves that this gets the people off the hook, it is more of a burden than if it was not there. And then, if you want to take it to the extreme,

whereas under the act one or the other of a married couple, of course, is designated as the principal owner , what happens if the principal owner becomes deceased? Then what happens, Mr. Speaker? If the husband is deceased and the wife still survives, what simply happens then is that (

a) either the~ foreclose ~39~

- · _ ... , ... _. __ , ,;:_, .:::s;::c:::::z:o __ __ ·- "'--~· -.... , ~.-"" .··---rmt'- ·. ~ - - -- --- July 8, 1981, Tape 3162, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOLLETT: at the death of the husband, or they let the widow occupy. But I do not think anybody should kid themselves either; under the new Matrimonial Act,the municipality is going to put a lien on the husband's estate. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) . MR. HOLLETT: To simply explain it, if the husband and wife is occupying a residence, under the act the council has the right to designate the principal owner who will be billed for property tax.

If in that case it is the husband and the husband dies and the widow is still there, then no council is going to turf the widow out so then she becomes responsible, under the Matrimonial Act, assuming there is no contracting out, to assume the responsibility for the taxes on the property. In the meantime, the municipality can still put an attachment on t ~e husband's portion of the estate, whether it be in re~ation to the house they live in or other assets, for his half of the property tax.

So we take that one step further: Then, when the widow finally becomes deceased, if you look at the amount of property tax assessed over a ten or twenty year period, and accrued interest at the rate which municipalities are allowed to charge, plus the fines that would have been paid over that period, the whole thin g is a wipeout. So I do not think that the Ministerof Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) should be very proud of himself to just go this far. If this amendment stated that notwithstanding there would be no court action taken by a municipality, I would gladly support it, wholeheartedly.

But as long as individual municipalities have the right to make their own regulations in relation to when the tax has to be paid, how many times they care to summons per annum, and this is over an extended period, then this proves nothing. ~394 -

.. ~~-;.;~ ... :.:.;,::,.~;:;;:~:..........:=-.:::.::::--:---:-· ·-~ ~- .~ .. · ................ ._ ····-- July 8, 1981, Tape 3162, Page 3 -- apb MR. HOLLETT: As I said before, Mr. Speaker, it only means that the principal owner could well pay more in fines during the year-or serve jail sentences - than the amount of real property tax would have been anyway. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that the government or anybody else should feel proud.

It is a good start, and I certainly agree with the principle of it, but unless people can fee~ safe in their homes without having this type of burden on their heads - and what I am saying is correct, because I live in a municipality now where the deadline for the payment of property tax was June 30. And unless it is fully paid by - I forget - July 31, or whatever the date is, a summons is going to be issued. So we did not have to wait for this amendment for th~ municipalities to start at it right away. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to see some bon. members opposite speak to this particular amendment in the same vein that I am. Because it is a serious matter. And do not think for a minute that an amendment such as that is going to get anybody off the hook in relation to some of the worse portions of the Municipal Bill. The President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) said they are going to be in for thirty years because of this type of amendment. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to advise the government House Leader that if these are the types of amendments they are going to bring in, it is going to be the shortest thirty years that he has ever experienced in his life­ time. tJ39~

July 8, 1981 Tape No . .:ll6.:l IB-~ MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD) : Order, please! I am sure all hon. members would like to welcome to the gallery Councillor Wells of St. John's. SOME HON. ME.MBERS: MR . SPEAKER: now he closes the debate. MR. MARSHALL: Hear , hear ! If the hon. minister speaks Mr. Speaker, I will not keep the House long on this but there are a few comments I want to make,particularly on what the han. member for Burin­ Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) said. With respect to this, this particula:=- bill goes a long, long way, Mr.

Speaker, towards assuring tenure of all people who occupy homes,to the effect that their homes will not be sold for the purpose of back taxes. Now the hon. gentleman has given a h'7Pothetical case of a - MR. HOLLETT: N.ot a hypothetical case. MR. MARSHALL: Well 1 it is a hypothetical case at the present time. It has to be a hypothetical case because the bill is not law yet, Mr. Speaker, so it does not apply until then. But it is - Ai~ HON . MEMBER: It is a concrete case. MR . MARSHALL : Well,it is a concrete case, okay. MR . STIRWU~G : (Inaudible) hypothetical case. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR. MARSHALL : Mr.

Speaker, you know, I could respond to what the hon . gentleman said. I did not interrupt the hon . gentleman when he was speaking, I was intere sted in what he said .and I pres~me that he and his leader might be interested in the response. And the response is this, that this bill , as I sa~ once again ,as a result of the efforts !139R

<'"!.~~~~.=:....:.;...:~·;: ~ · ::;·. ::r~";'-.-.~:;.,.... - • -- July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3163 IB-2 MR. MARSHALL: of the hon. member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), now precludes a municipality from selling the home of an individual,where the home is owner occupied, for back taxes. And that is a great step forward if there ever wa.s a step forward, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! A great Liberal reform. A great Liberal reform. It was the Liberal government who originally put in the act, Mr. Speaker, that permitted them to sell the homes.

The fact of the matter, Mr~ Speaker, as to the example - and I will not even say hypothetical,whether it is an example or not of the hon. member, just let me deal with it - it means that the widow to who he refers is able to live in that house in comfort and security for the rest of her days for so long as she shall live without being in danger of the house being taken and sold for ~axes. That is what it means, Mr. Speaker. We have made no pretext whatsoever over the fact that taxes accrue and taxes will be owed, taxes have to be o~1ed. You cannot tax one person and not another p~rson, :_and what have you.

But what we are talking about here is the remedy and we are precluding the sale of owner-occupied homes. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) mentioned that perhaps this should be extended to the city of St. John's,and perhaps it should. Themembersof the city of St. John's do not feel it is imperative at this particular time because, as we have said, it has not, never been and I do not think it ever would be - MR. STIRLING: the city act? MR. MARSHALL: You are not going to change WelJ. "·'::= '"'lay well change the city act. We could consider it. But what I have said, ~397 ---·--

July 8, 1981 Tape N0.3163 IB-3 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, is that there is not an imperative because the City Council of St. John's, to my knowledge,has never sold an owner occupied home for taxes. The ad s in the paper , to the contrary , notwithstanding that these ads -the measures that have been taken by the city council in recent years have been with respect to absentee landlords. But we will consider it. But we will consider it, Mr. Speaker, as we always do, in consultation with the c~ty of St. John's and we will not be leading an amendment until we have consultation with them on it. So, Mr.

Speaker, the other point brought up by the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) that the amount should be fixed - I do not agree with him on that - for discounts. Each council should certainly have the right and the ability to determine the amount of the discount,if any that is being given,up to a certain amount. So,I mean; I am not saying the hon. gentleman's observations are not well taken. I mean 1there are no absolutes in this world.

All of these things are a matter of balancing and we bave put them on the scale,and we appreciate what he said 1 but we do not really accept it, not at this particular time. And I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 44) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act". (Bill No. 43) ~39A

--· ··· ·-· _ _,- ~-.. --- ~- .. ---. ·- -· ...... -· July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3164 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of the Council. Yes, Mr. Speaker, now I want to say that this is another act for the amendment of the City of St. John's Act and the purpose of it is - now, clause 2, one of the main purposes being- and this is in expectation of altered boundaries, whatever these ~ltered boundaries may be. Clause 1 provides that an order extending or altering the boundaries of the city may have effect on a different date for municipal election purposes than for other purposes.

This clause is essential if the election procedures are to be carried out for the November general elections· For administrative and tax purposes,it is intended that other provisions in the act can come into effect at another time, for instance, obviously, on Januarv lst, the beginnina of the financial year, but that legislative authority is _necessary to do it. Another provision contemplates, again,the possible enlargement of the city of St. John's and provides for an increase in the council from eight to ten members. Now,I have to advise the House, Mr.

Speaker, that it was just no more than five minutes ago that we got a letter from the City Clerk of the City of St. John's •1hich has asked us, as I understand the thing-received at 4:05p.m. this afternoon 1which asks instead of the councillors being a mandatory ten,that you enable the complement of the council to be increased from eight to ten. Now, as I say, we just got that and I am sort of repeating it in the Chamber cola turkey and there does not appear to be anything wrong with that amendment, Mr. SpP.aker, and, as I say, we always consult with our good friends from the city of St. John's on these things.

The Law Clerk has ·been instructed to prepare an appropriate amendmP.nt '•'hich, after considering the import of this, we mav or may not introduce in committee. I would expect. that we would but, as I say, we just got it cold turkey and 839~

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3164 SD - 2 MR. Ml1.RSHALL: I am just informing the House that this is what may happen. In other words, instead of saying mandatory from eight to ten, we may put it in that the council may be increased from eight to ten and that will be an enabling provision instead of a mandatory provision. Clause 3 of the act, and that will require a minor consequental amendment, Mr. Speaker, I am informed, to Bill No. 91 that was passed as well,which was that particular amendment in that act pertaining to this , was consequental and incidental to this particular act itself.

Clause 3 exempts the city from annexation of any lands now held by the Crown. That is a normal one. But there is another good one here, a very good one that was done in consultation with the councillors and the city members. Now,I might say, Mr. Speaker, for the edification of all concerned,that these bills have been thoroughly and exhausively debated by the caucus, by the government caucus. The fact that government members may not be speaking on it does not reflect from their part any lack of concern.

Many of these provisions have been hotly debated but they have been certainly thoroughly debated and what I am doing now is I am giving, really, ~ resume of the total . conclusion. So I would not want anyone to assume that the members- of course,as we all know,the city of St. John's are very judicious in their choice of councillors. They are also very judicious in their choice of members. That being so, as the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) will recognize,all of the members in the city of St. John's sit on this side of the House as, I am sure,most of the hearts of the councillors of the city of St.

John's beat over he~e as well. They are not here · in person. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, clause 5 is a great step forward as well. I do not think we can let BL.On

July 8, 1981 Tape No. 3164 IB-3 MR. MARSHALL : the bill go through without bringing it ·to the attention - it enables council to defer a tax for persons i .n financial need. Now, this is something that I knm-1 the Opposition \-IOUld like us to slough over and we would not mention anything about it. But I think that this is the main purpose of the bill. There is no provision at present in the City Act for tax deferment . and the coun€il wishes to have the ')Ower. vou know MR. THCMS: (Inaudible) . MR. MARSHALL: Well, no,-11 t '1at was in the days . Mr.

Speaker, and the reason for that vlas - that was in the days when the City Council Act was first brought into play after Confederation and the members there opposite were over here, and I think Mr . Vardy and others were down at City Council, and the people here were saying to Mr. Vardy and others, 'Yo.u go out and 1 you kn.ow, you \-lhip the people of the city of St. John's. It does not matter how poor they are, you must collect their taxes' . lvell, what \ole are saying 1 Mr. Speaker, here in this bill,the council and the city members of S:t.

John's and the Cabinet have de~ided , that there must be a !;)revision in the act for tax: deferment. And council. will by this have the power ~ ;, 0 ., -

&m --- -·---- =.z.:.;:-z:---....;:.>r::. -·'---· --- - -- •. :-::::--- --=-=-=-=-=- ---""----=---:-==---:-- --------- July 8, 1981 Tape 3165 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: to defer taxes owing by special classes of persons. such as old age pensioners,until such time as property is sold or otherwise disposed of?' Old age pensioners, Mr. Speaker, are people whom we are very concerned about.

The celebrated School Tax Authority, as hon. members will recall, of course, exempts old age pen~ioners from it and I think it is particularly with the crucifixion that many of these people experience as a result of inflation and the high cost of living,that this particular clause is very timely and I know will be used as much as necessary by council itself.

So as a result of this bill now, people who - not all old age pensioners, some old age pensioners are fortunate to be able to pay - but in the case of some old age pensioners who are feeling the pinch·and, indeed, other people who are feeling the pinch, you will be able to exempt them if they are not able to pay. Clause 6, the final clause, is an incidental one with respect to the Municipalities Act, Mr.

Speaker, and this relates that where there is a - it is the same as in the Municipalities Act, that where there are transfers of employees, particularly as a result of any expansion or what have you from various areas, the redundancy clauses and the pension benefits can be transferrable in equal way. So, I do not think, Mr. Speaker, at least I would hope that this would not require any extensive debate. It is a forward piece of legislation and I know hon. members - the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is jumping in his seat to get up and enthusiastically endorse it. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Baird) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ~40?

July 8, 1981 Tape 3165 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, when one member says something in this House, it-has been ruled by the House that another member saying something entirely opposite does not mean that one or the other lied. Now, you just heard what the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) said, and I will state here categorically that the President of the Council or no member from any of the districts in St. John's or no me~er from the government consulted with the City of St. John's,with any of the councillors who are here present today, and I state that categorically.

The minister has said that there was consultation. There was absolutely no consultation about Clause 3. Clause 3 has not been discussed with them. The old master is up to it again. He sloughed over Clause 3, and yet, Clause 3 is the most important clause that the government is trying to sneak through in this piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker, I repeat that there has been no discussion. I called the members of City Council. They had not received a call from one of the members, the eleven, the famous eleven, and I think it is significant that all these debates on the City of St.

John's Act this afternoon are all being done by one person. And that is about what the City of St. John's needs in representation in this House of Assembly, one person there speaking on behalf of the eleven. They have not contacted the City of St. John's, categorically, they have not contacted the City of St. John's about Clause 3. It has not been discussed, it has never been brought to the attention of council. MR. THOMS: Sure, they always consult, I mean, the President of the Council says so. MR. STIRLING: Well, as I said, in the House you cannot suggest that a lie is being told simply because there e40:1 - ·

~ ·- July 8 , 1981 Tape 3165 EC - 3 MR. STIRLING : is a difference of i nformation. Now, you heard what the President of the Council (Mr. .t-1arshall) said, and I am saying that categorically, he did not discuss this . Re personally - ~m . MARS~LL : ~rr . Speaker, on a point of order . MR . MARSHALL: Now, Mr . Speaker, you knm.;, the hon. gentleman - SOME HON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR . MARSHALL: I have no desire to get involved with the hon . gentleman , Mr . Speaker , but the fact of the matter is, one cannot say in this Chamber 8404

========- ---'-'- - ==- -~ - ~ lllliiiiOiiiii July 8, 1981 Tape 3166 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: indirectly what one may not say directly. Now.what the bon. gentleman is doing when the bon. gentleman gets up and says, I cannot say that the hon. gentleman is telling a lie. MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: No,I did not say that, Mr. Speaker. But then the hon. -gentleman is - what the bon. gentleman said is he correct? MR. STIRLING: I did not say it. I was very careful not to say it. MR.

MARSHALL: In effect what he is doin~ I submi~is saying indirectly what he cannot say directly and surely he must be asked either to withdraw or retract - MR. STIRLING: MR. MAMHALL: respect to it. No, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that. - or to clarify his position with Mr.

Speaker, I can say many things about the hon. gentleman, but that is one area where you cannot , and I have no intention, I would not have any wish to either, whether it is parliamentary or not, to make that insinuation directly or indirectly about the bon. member and I would hope that he will not see fit to make this type of insinuation in this House as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): To that point of order I think all hon. members are aware what you cannot say indirectly what you cannot say directly. I would have to review Hansard to see what exactly has been said.

But I would like to remind all hon. members of that ruling.