Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 17

December 15, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 611 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. _SP~AKE~ ~ The bon. MiniAter of Finance. Page 1 - mw HO~~ -~~~~~inister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, durin~ the past week the Province has successfuly concluded arrangements for two bond issues, The first of these was a Canadian dollar loen in the European capital market. It was originally set at an amount of $25,000,000 at par but because of the heavy demand it was increased to $30,000,000 at an issue price of 100 1/4.

The interest coupon is 10 1/4% and the loan matures on December 15, 1985,which makes it the longest term issue in the Euro­ Canadian dollar - a ten year issue, this is the first one that they have ever accepted in the Euro-Canadian dollar. Credit Commercial de France and A. E. Ames and Company acted as co-managers for this loan which will be listed on the Luxembourg Stock Exchange. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated were the lead managers in the private placement of a $25,000,000 U.S. dollar issue for the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation.

This issue has a coupon of 10 7/8 % and was placed in the United States with a group of investors headed by !he Equitable Life Assurance Society of the United States. The loan is guaranteed by the Province to mature on December 1, 1995. So far this year the Province has borrowed $160 million under the authority of the Loan Act 1975. The borrowings have all been in Canadian or U. S dollars and are detailed as follows: $60.0 Canadian (2 issues); $50,0 Euro-Canadian (2 issues): and $50.0 U.S. (1 issue), I have some copies here for the House and for the press. Thank you, Sir. 1552

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 2 - mw PRESENTING REPORTS BY~TANDINC AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES : MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. -------- MR. ~~~: Mr. Speaker, I have to table the following documents, regulations which were gazetted on December 1, 1975 aad are required to be tabled in the House of Assembly by not later than December 19, 1975, fifteen sitting days after they are made.

One, The Tabacco Tax Amendment Regulations, 1975; The Gasoline Tax Amendment Regulations, 1975; The Insurance Premiums Tax Amendments,Bill, 1975: The Horse Racing Regulations Tax Amendments Regulations, 1975; The Fuel Oil Tax Amendments Regulations 1975 and The Retail Sales Tax Amendments Regulations, 1975. There are copies of these avaiable also for tabling in the House. MR. S~~AKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. RON. R. WELLS (Minister without Portfolio): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide Retiring Allowances On A Contributory Ba*:ls To Persons Who Have Served As Mmnbers Of The House Of Asse111bly." ANSWE~'!Q_~STIONS POR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: Question No. 416- Hon. Mr. Smallwood (Twillingate): The number of automobiles, buses, trucks, etc., the numbers of drivers licensed, and the annual revenue in each of the financial years 1970-75. RON_. J. MORGAN (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr.

Speaker, in reply to Question No, 416, the total number of vehicles is 190,000; the total number of drivers licensed , is 214,724. The revenue amount in 1975 was $7,076,000. _!!!._SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. HON.H_. __ _f_t;l~LINS (!'finister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the bon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) asked a que•tion last week about a rumour that some people were being laid off at the Burin Cottage Hosl'ital. I undertook to get some information for him. Nobody has been laid off, and there are no plans to lay anyone off. 1553

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 611 Page ] Ma. Sp~R: _ The hon. Minister of Fo-restry and •gri.culture. RON. J .• ROtJSS_!A_!t (Minister of 'Fore11try and AgP.culture): Mr. Sl)eaker, in resPf!ict to some of the questions posed by the bon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), first of all I have by letter to him dated September 8 for Questio~ No. 273, 278, 284, 285, 286, 287, 300, 305, 306 and 316; indicated that they are not appropriate to this department by copy of the letter to my colleague, th.e bon. Minis te~ of Tourism. They have been re-ferred to U&t departaent: Answer to question asked by J.R.

Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Questio n No. 276 The number of acres o.f'lil.nd newly cleared, number brought into cultivation; dollar assistance given toward the cost of said operations in each of the financial years 1965-75.

Answer: No. o£ Acres No. brought Dollar of land ne\.,rly into culti- assistance cleared vation toward cost Year 759 759 94,887 1965/66 898 898 112,265 1966/67 641 641 801160 1967/68 680 680 85 1610 19G8/69 667 667 83,408 1969/70 712 712 89,093 1970/71 972 972 121,518 1971/72 831 ·83l 105 ,028 19 72/73 785 785 133,338 19 7 3/74. 1,620 1,620 347,170 19 7·4/75 1554

\l,esidence 919riculture ,5l.1mmer DJttage (:.Jmmercial ~hers TOTAL December lS, 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 4 Answer to question asked by J. R. Smallwood, , directed to the Honourable the .r.tinister of Forestry and Agriculture. Question No. 279 Is it the intention of the Government to place in Central and Eastern Newfoundland agricultural products establishments similar to the one Answer: at Corner Brook. The abattoir constructed at Corner Brook was poorly planned and contracted, and cost far more than it should.

The requirement for similar establishment in Central and Eastern Newfoundland is being continually monitored and the best ·arrangement would be for private enterprise to provide the facility ·as is done elsewhere. Appropriate Government action will be taken at the appropriate time. Answer to question asked by J.R. Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Question No. 281 The numbers of land grants, their aggregate area and the purposes for which desired; Answer: 70-71 Nos.

Area 41 25 107 3 176 6,258 and the same information for leases granted; in each of the financial years 1970-75~ Statistics, in the form requested by Mr. Smallwood have only been compiled since April 1, 1973. For the Financial years 70-71 and 71-72 only gross figures are presently available. Statistics for the 1975-76 financial year will not be compiled until next spring, therefore, the figures only represent totals up to November 24,1975. Leases (Area in Acres) 71-72 72-73 73-74 74-75 75 Nos. Area Nos. Area Nos. Area Nos.

Area Nos. 59 71 113 69 75 50 34 37 65 1, 814 43 1,015 97 102 126 115 89 74 35 33 35 109 40 159 1 7 17 298 11 414 226 1,765 250 1,553 356 2,405 258 1, 712 238 1555 Nov.: Area ~l"'JI'' I

f December 15, 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 5 Grants (Area in Acres} 281 continued. 70-71 71-72 72-73 73-74 74-75 75 Nov.24 Nos. Area Nos. Area Nos. Area Nos. Area Nos. Area Nos. Area R:esidence A.g ricultu r e crants under e ct. 9 (1) 1 ncludi n g ~ ·o th summer CDttage & c:Prnrnercial O•t:hers Schools, c: ·hurches, municipal 29 28 30 22 116 92 34 34 30 13 8 48 17 177 173 1,313 139 204 298 53 90 eouncil,etc.) ~6 ________ __ 13 5 ~14~--~3~5~5- 12 616 TOTAL 181 2,301 155 1~261 226 1,257 269 860 251 2,027 142 Answer to question asked by J.R. Smallwood directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Question No. 290 Answer: TonG of agricultural 11mestone produced and made available to farmers in each of the financial years 1960-75. There is no agriculture limestone produced 490 in Newfoundland. Limestone is usually obtained from Mosher's Limestone, Musquodoboit, Nova Scotia. Year Tons of Limestone made available to farmers 1960/61 3,469 1961/62 1,923 1962/63 1,266 1963/64 1,826 1964/65 2,055 1965/66 1,403 1966/67 2,002 1967/68 2,015 1968/69 2,244 1969/70 2,759 1970/71 2,840 19 71/72 2,976 1972/73 4,112 1973/74 5,050 1974/75 5,110 1556

December 15 , 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 6 AnS\'Ier to question asked by J . R. Smallwood directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture Question No . 298 The numbers and amounts of far m loans made in each financial year 1970 - 75. Answer: Year No. of Loans Made Amounts to Farm 1970/71 79 $133 ,7 63 . 00 1971/72 91 $2871793.71 1972/73 92 $331,426.13 1973/74 120 $463,051.42 1974/75 99 $480,539.41 Answer to question asked by J . R. Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the t-linister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Loan s Question No . 299 The number and amounts of saw mill loans rnade in each of the financial years 1970-75 . Answer : This Department does not provide financial assistance to saw mills. 1557

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 7 Answer to question asked by J.R. Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Question No. 301 What effort has the Government made to ascertain the practicality and econGrnic feasibility of growing mushrooms in Newfoundland? Answer : Several years ago the Department studied the possibility of a commercial mushroom growing operation in this province. It was determined that mushroom production, using present day techniques was not economical.

This is primarily due to the fact that a suitable compost or growing medium is not readily available in this province. Although it might be practical to grow mushrooms on a small scale for horne use, we are not encouraging or recommending any large commercial production. Scientific research is going on in many parts of the world to develop new techniques of mushroom production. There is a possibility in the years to come that techniques may be developed using local materials as a basis for the compost. Answer to question asked by J.R. Smallwood directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Question No. 302 How many cords of pulpwood delivered to the linerboard paper mill at Stephenville in the calendar years 191S, u1~,and ls?s; the sources; the cost of the said pulp'lmod delive red to Answer: the mill. This Department is not responsible for the Labrador Linerboard Corporation. 1558

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 8 Ans\ver to question asked by J. R. Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Question No. 307 What is the Government's .policy with regard to licensing the building and regulating of country shacks. Answer: I assume that Mr. Smallwood is referring to sununer cottages when he uses the term "country shack". A license is not required in this Province for constructing a summer cottage unless it falls within a municipal boundary. Within a municipal bo~ndary, a building permit must be obtained from the local authority.

However, all cottage owners or potential cott.age owners must have in their possession proof of ownership of the land they are occupying, before a cottage can be constructed. Cottage owners who are occupying Crown Land without the benefit of a title issued from my Department are in illegal occupation of Crown Land are subject to prosecution under

Section 134 and/or 116 of The Crown Lands Act. Leases for Crown Land are available, upon application, for cottage construction, provided the site meets the minimum requirements as laid down by various Government Departments. Regulations regarding the construction of cottages are laid down in the provisions of the lease and the

schedule attached thereto. The lands Branch of my Department is reviewing present Government Policy regarding summer cottages and I expect to be recomme d" n 1.ng some major changes in this area over the next year. 1559 . .,

December 15, 1975 Tape no . 611 Page 9 Answer to question asked by J.R. Smallwood, dire~ted to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Question No. 308 What is the local production of hay; how many tons are brought into the ·Province? Ans'~>ler: 19 74 Local production of hay = 8,100 tons Hay imported into Province - 6 , 000 tons Ans;~ e r to question asked by J. R. Smalh1ood directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Question No. 310 What is the present systcm·of giving financial assistance to clear land for agriculture ? Answer : A.

La.nd Clearing Policy Upon inspection of land and approval of application for land clearing, an indivi dual may clear, at any given time, five acres of land '~>Ti th a maximum of twenty in any given year. Upon a further inspection , after said land is cleared, payment in aw~unt of $125 . 00 per acres is made . B. Capital Assistance Program Upon approval of an application, including a proposed five year farm plan , an applicant may be eligible for a grant of up to $200 . 00 per acre for land clearing , paid when said land is ready to be placed into production. 1560

December 15 , 1975 Tape no. 611 Page 10 Answer to question asked by J.R. Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture . Question No . 311 lvhat system, if any , do the Government have to assist farmers to increase the productivity of fields or other land that have fallen back in that respect? Ans\ver : J.\ . Professional advice from Agricultural staff . B. Department makes limestone available to the farmers at $2.00 per ton. C. Loans available from the Newfoundlana Farm Development Loan Board in amount of $75.00 per acre. Answer to question asked by J.R.

Smallwood, directed to the Honourable the Hini ster of Forestry and Agriculture. Questio n No. 314 Have Government completed.making the arrangements whereby clear title has been or is to be delivered to the Canadian Government on all lands in Gros Morne Park? Answer: The administrative responsibility for the Gros Horne National Park rests with the Gros Morne Authority. Last year , ·this Authority was transferred from my Department to the Department of Tourism. I therefore suggest that Mr . Smallwood direct this questionto the Honourable T. Hickey. 1561

_......,_ __ _ necember 15, 1975 Tape no. flll Pa~e 11 Answer te question asked by J. R. Smalh,ood, directed to the Honourable the Minister of Fo r estry and Agriculture. Question No. 309 How many community pasture's are there; where; their acreage; \>that use is being mace of them; what charges are made for their use by the public. Answer: Total number of pastures Total number of patrons Tetal area developed Total number of lambs Total number of sheep 'l~otal number of cattle Total number of calves Charges to Public Cattle over 9 months 33 689 5,975 3,802 3,269 2,128 716 $·5. 00 Calves under 9 months goes with mother Sheep and Rams $1 . 30 Lambs $0 . 15 (See attached for details) 1562

TOTAL TOTAL NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER PASTURES

(33) PATRONS AREA AREA OF OF OF OF RESERVED DEVELOPED SHEEP N LAMBS CATTLE CALVES ,....;

Q) Cochrane Pond 36 6160 465 343 1 01 Shoe Cove (St. John's East) 44 898 185 78 6 ctl ll< Fox trap 37 2500 354 160 51 Brigus 32 1138 215 28 121 71 Salmon Cove 28 370 145 102 56 Country Road 67 1605 450 247 206 171 51 Colinet 16 321 200 79 65 71 22 Riverhead 34 960 100 99 86 51 17 Gaskiers 43 5000 150 373 326 St . Shotts 22 8000 80 202 220 ,....; Peters River 25 2300 220 185 9 3 ,....; 1.0 Fer ryland 24 3000 140 90 81 36 4 St. Brides 24 7076 397 403 19 7 0 Winter land 21 350 220 97 85 54 35 z Point Crewe 11 5500 32 20 31 24

Q) Lamaline 13 3000 135 209 147 19 9 P< ctl Port Rexton 4 910 65 55 38 28 19 C'i"' E-< Spencer Bridge 18 1000 200 114 77 62 15 (£) Comfort Cove 11 2361 85 132 72 38 17 U? Wooddale 4 271 110 130 143 5 ....... Mic Mac 13 1619 295 229 149 54 39 Cormack 37 4360 540 136 123 285 115 Robinsons 19 568 255 123 76 Sears ton 9 150 90 43 36 West Ba:;' 30 464 323 225 237 53 28 "' Long Point (New) 700 100 I' Long Harbour 6 3000 150 51 19 6 0 a. ,....; George's Brook 10 1000 90 61 65 ~ Swansea 35 2500 350 "' Port Albert 4 900 121 31 17 ,....; H O'Regans 12 960 200 91 92 70 33

Q) Bay de Verde (new) 1500 150 ..a s Harbour 1'1ain (new) 1500 12

Q) u

Q) Q 689 7I9'IT 5975 3269 2802 2128 716

December 15, 1975 Tape No. 612 NM - 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion 3. On motion of the hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, "An Act To Repeal The Newfoundland Agricultural Marketing Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS: ~. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, since the Fall Budget has been brought down there have been various remarks and speeches made in this House.

First of all I would like to congratulate those new members who did make their maiden speeches at this particular time and I think together with the others who have spoken before me, the calibre and the quality of those speeches are ones that the House could well commend. There have been other speeches made, Mr. Speaker, which I will be dealing with in more detail later. ~orne of them , like thP. one hy the Leader of the Opposition, in my opinion was totally irresponsible in its approach to the financial situation of this Province.

It was not develop or bust, it was borrow or bust and that, Sir, is not good enough at this time in our history. At this time in the history of this Province, we as a people,and we as a House of Assembly have to be awfully serious, we have to be awfully concerned and we have to be very responsible. I think we have heard over-reaction.

I think the hon. member for Twillingate,meaning very well and accepting the prohlem that is facing us ~s a Province, I think the fact is that we must look at tl' e balance and the counter­ balance as to what we can do realistically as opposed to what we would like to do or even as we should do. For the han. gentleman's information, Sir, the fact is he was talking about the Premier being the Minister of Finance in many provinces in Canada, today there is only one Province left whose Premter is also the Minister of Finance and that is the Province of 1-!anitoba.

There has been a change, Sir, over the last few years, That does not mean to say that the head of government is not involved in budget 1564

ll!'cemher 15, 1Q75 Tape No. 612 PIIP.fo!TF.r. l'f(l()Rf.S: fonnation , Of coursP. he has to be by definition. ~·r.

Speakf.'r, t alking :~bout the situation a~> we have it tn this Province today, there are a great many details of it I would like to p,o into and I will he dealing 14ith them as I RO throuRh my few remar ks, but 1 suppose, Sir, the one that lies at the root of tJhere •~ e are a.o; a people, hMI to be lool:ed at and looked at most Rcr1 ously, 1 s that of exnectations, what has heen expectations for quite n feN vears now,as the Pri me M:l,ntster quite ri.r.htly said, is no longer 1ust expectations 1-ut most people think it is 11 r ight .

Sir, that phil osophy, thnt attitude must and h:~s to chnnge , The fact that what we thought was our right~ even ''I' to a fe-.• months ago because they were our expectations • are no lonRe r the case and we in this Province like all the other provinces of Canada must face up to that and fac e up to the reality of it. The bon. member also referred to losinR self-government in the ~ifficulties of that time . That time t suggest , Sir, was the time when most of us here do not remenber other than reading about it in histo r y.

I do not think we are at that stage today, Sir, far from it •• But timeR are extrem e ly diff icul t today and they require , Sir, harsh measures. 1565

December 15, 1975 Tape 613 PK- 1 PREMIER MOORES: They require measurements by the government of this Province, by the government of the other provinces of Canada and by our federal government that have not been the norm but rather have been totally unexpected and unrealized until very recently. This government, Sir, plans to be tough. There is no question about that. We will set an example to labour and to management of what government can do in leading the way , in showing the way.

But also, Sir, we will accept the challenge of the future, we will accept the challenge of what can be done in a very rich province,in a very rich nation, so that this nation and our Province I.Yill be the beneficiaries. Sir, the neces~ity of the first Fall Budget in our history was one that really takes very little explanation. The fact is we were heading for a deficit this year of some $30 million, and something had to be done about it. Something had to be done to · look after what will happen next year.

Because whilst the financial market and the other people in this world will accept one deficit because of the unusual circumstances in the world today, they will not condone nor should we be allowed to get away with two. The fact is that that will never be allowed, Sir, 1dth the financial restraints that are in the world and not just in Canada. The fact is we 'lo7ere looking at $30 million deficit this year. The fact is, Sir, that the Province of Ontario was looking at $1,293,000,000 deficit, the federal government whose deficit is gone from $2 billion to almost between $6 billion and $7 billion in deficits.

So what is happening here, Sir, in our Province is not unique to what has happened in our country generally. We are looking at, Sir, In this budget the principle of balancing the budget. I think, Sir, it is fair to say that all people in this Province must realize that unless we balance our budget, unless we are financially responsible, we as a Province and as a people will never 1ever be able to do the things in the future that we so badly need to do and want to do. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1566

necember 15, 1975 Tape 613 PK - 2 P.REMIER MOORES: The fact is, Sir, our Province has a rating in the world today by Moodys, Standard and Poor and these oth~r people who do ratings in the United States market, we have a rating of RAA. The fact is also, Sir, that unless we take these steps that rating could decrease or certainly not be increased. We do not have the flexibility of an Ontario with a triple A rating, where if worst came to worst they would be dropped to a double A rating. He have not the flexibility, Sir, to allow expenditures that may not be prudent and may not be acceptable.

In other words we had to act quicker and more realistically than even the other larger provinces of Canada. The fact is, Sir, that it is clear to me that the inflationary process in which we find ourselves was in fact the major contributing factor to our being in our position today. We have heard charges from the other side that we should have known in the last budget; the last budget was dishonest; the last budget was a budget that should have told the facts; we did it because of an election.

Sir, with all due respect to the Opposition,the fact is as an example wage and price controls came in after our election and eighteen months after the f ederal election when it was a very major plank in the national pnver nment' s pl a tform at thnt t ime. The fact is, Sir, we did say that school tax could not be taken off because it would have been financially irresponsible. The fact is, Sir, I think we have taken a responsible position.

The fact is that I do not think that this inflationary spiral that we found ourselves in,even though as the Premiers of Canada have asked eighteen months ago for federal leadership and pledging co-operation, I do not think, Sir, that it could have been forecast to the degree that we have now come to accept it.

The need to correct the present budgetary trends, also to alert the public on the difficulties of Gull Island, and the need to participate in the federal government's attack on inflation were all reasons, Sir, why this House had to be called together, all reasons why fiscal controls and restraints and guidelines by ourselves had to be 1567

December 15, 1975 Tape 613 PK - 3 Premie r Moores: laid down. The fact is, Sir, we ar e cutting spending in co-operation wi~h the federal position, because our position is no different. The fact is our government has to cut programmes and it has to cut in some of the programmes we presently have. That is just being prudent, Sir, that is not being politically exp edient. We hear the 1568

December 15, 1q75 Tape no. 614 Page 1 - mw Pre_!!!i~r -~o~~:_ l'lpposition say that if Ottawa does it, it is fine; if we do it, we are letting down the voter and the people of this Province. That, Sir, is partisan politics that at this time is not responsible and not what we need to face up to. It is unfortunate, Sir, that the Province should be asked, I suppose, to participate in Canada's belated on inflation but the fact is, Sir, we have been and we will. Recriminations against one government or another,or one political party or another are of no consequence nor serve any purpose at this particular time.

We, Sir, have been living in a dream world for sometime. When I say we, Sir, I am talking about most governments, most companies, most unions, and most individuals in our society; all of us, have been living in a dream world, a dream world, unfortunately, that we have come to find now does not exist. Unfortunately, in this Province we inherited some of our dream worlds through the linerboard mill and Erco and others but the fact is we have inherited them, we have to live with them, and now we have to do what has to be done.

Rut, Sir, I can tell you we will be leaving the Alice~TicRQpde~-~~ economic policy and going into a world of reality in the future. The background, Sir, is that we are slowing down the great leap forward,there is no question that I agree with that, hut, Sir, unfortunately most people or a lot of people 'qould have called it the great stumble forward. The fact is that this Province, Sir, has to come to grips with where we are as a people.

This Province had only a minimal share, I suppose, in the situation that Canada and ourselves are finding ourselves in, but we must accept, Sir, some share of the responsibility since this government, in common with all governments, have overspent themselves at an alarming rate during the past years. But, Sir, what was the option? The fact was that we had to catch up or, at least, we said ourselves, and everyone told us that we had to catch up. We had to provide infrastructure for ~mat was required in this Province.

We had not to be second-class eanadian citizens, and we were in a rush to become first-class Canadian citizens. 1569

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 614 Page 2 - mw The hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) has mentioned, Sir, that the debt of the Province has increased by some $700 million - $900 million, and that, Sir, is basically correct. The fact is, Sir . that if we want to look at the figures of the past that from 1971 until 1975, our debt has just over doubled. But, Sir, also for the member for Twillingate's recollection, from 1966 to 1971 it tripled. The fact is, Sir, that the dollars are large.

The dollars, looking at it in retrospect, some .could say are too large, but, Sir, could we do less than we did under the circumstances and the times that we lived in? The fact is inflation affected the value of the dollar, but also people's demands were such, Sir, or their expectations, that elected governments 1 all elected governments . since 1949 thought it was their right. In highways, roads and bridge construction, from 1968 until 1971, there was $189 million spent on that programme. In our three years, Sir, $198 million, or virtually the same,just a few million more.

People, Sir, who talk about election years as to wh~ these monies were spent, I might out, Sir, that in 1971-1972, an election year to say the least, there was some $67 million spent. This year, Sir, five vears later, there was $1 million less than that spent. The fact is, Sir, it was not, as we have been accused, quite the election situation that most people wbnld be led to believe. But, Sir, in hosptial construction we are looking at a situation whereby from 1968 until 1971 there was $17 million spent on hospital construction.

In the last three years there was $104 million, a great deal more, a great deal more was done. But, Sir, as opposed to turning sods, and I can give an example of the one in Carbonear, where the sod,la I understand, was turnerl some three times, not the least of which was the one by the present Minister of Mines and Energy, but he has to live with that, Sir, even amongst his own colleagues • But the fact is that there were a great many promises for health institutions but except for the extension at St. Clare's Hospital, very little meaningful actual construction had happened at $17.3 millioncan well attest to it.

The fact is, Sir, 111:"JA .&.VIU

Dece,her 15. 1975 Premier Moores. Tape no. 614 Page 3 - mw in the last three years and finishin~ this year the Health Science Complex, the Carbonear Hosptial, '~estern Memorial Hosptial and the Twillingate Hosital will have been completed and not promised. 1571

December 15, 1975 Tape 615 PK - 1 Premier Moores: New hospital projects are either in progress or in the planning stage, such as the Waterford Hospital, Bonavista, Come By Chance, Burin, Central Newfoundland, Clarenville, Channel, Placentia and the Paddon Memorial Hospital. Well now, Sir, regarding that we have said that these projects in the main have been deferred, Waterford being the exceptions because it is virtually completed.

They have been deferred, Sir, but they have not been cancelled, and in the life of this government,please God,they will be gone ahead with, but that is only when economic circumstances allow us to do it. Wemve built a nursing station at Port Hope Simpson, new community health centres at Deer Lake, St. Alban's, Port Saunders, English Harbour West, Terrenceville and New World Islands.

And, Sir, I would say now,and I am talking about health, and about education and these other social needs of our people, who would have said during the time that these things were being done that the people of our Province did not deserve to have this sort of service, and have this sort of facility available to them? I vouch ·, Sir, to say that very few, if any, person would say that these are not a need. Today is the fiscal restraints that disallow us from carrying on with the others.

The fact is, Sir, in education, in institutions there were $52.4 million spent before, in our regime there has been $107.7 millions spent on these same facilities. In industrial development,which I will talk about later 7 most of our capital expendibures, Sir, has been spent and afloat what we inherited. In housing there were $8.1 million spent by the previous administration, Sir . In our time there has been $21.5 million.

In that regard on housing I will say one thing more, Sir, and that is we are putting an emphasis together with the federal government on houaing this year as I will be spelling out in more detail here in a few moments. But, Sir, housing is one of the things that not only creates employment, not only uses local materials but also serves probably the most labour intensive of all the construction areas. So in this particular case where we are considering these three things,housing has to be ; taken as a major consideration. 1572

December 15, 1975 Tape 615 PK - 2 Premier Moores: In fishery capital works, $6 million before, $30 million in the last three and a half years. Sir, I might say here that it is going to be programmes in fisheries and not capital expenditures in fisheries that ~T e roinp: to take the monev in the year and the years ahead. Fishery is, I suppose, heen bandied around by political parties since day one in this Province for the obvious reason. It also, Sir, has to be the one area,or one of the areas,that has to be taken in hand and come to grips with by any administration that happens to be here today.

In sports facilities,which I suppose a lot of people put very minor emphasis on, the fact is there was $2.P million spent in the three years before this party came to power and some $6.4 million since. And Sir, whilst it is important I suppose to look at jobs, and to look at inflation and all the other various things that we have to look at in our society, and a lot of people will say recreation is unnecessary,but a lot of young people today want a fuller life and want a broader life and all that goes with it.

And in the past four years, Sir, and I think it is worth reading into the record, some twenty-one stadiums have been built in this Province, twelve indoor swimming pools, thirty-five outdoor swimming pools, thirty recreation centres, ninety-two playgrounds, eighty-six outdoor rinks, thirty-six soccer pitches, fifty-two softball fields, twenty-one community centres, tennis courts, municipal parks and so on. Sir, as I say this is not the most major concern of this government, but the fact is that it has being done, and I think the young people of this Province should have these benefits. MR.

SMALLWOOD: And it is good stuff. PREMIER MOORES: Thank you, Sir. These things had to be done but, Sir, tie are getting away from where we are. I could talk about forest access roads, some 314 miles, arts and culture centres at $3.4 million, the Fisheries Loan Board $8.1 million, Rural Development Authority, purchase of the Reid land, 1573

L'\..... - December 15, 1975 Tape 615 PK- 3 Premier Moores: and on it goes, Sir, in buying back the CFJ.;Co shares, if you take all of these figures they bad up to very close to $900 Diillion. Too much,unfortunately. Ti~ back~! suppose.we wo.uld have chaQged some of those things but the fact is tod,a.y ba.s been spent and now we must co111e to grips with where we are and not whe·re we were • . It is all very well to say that - MR. SMALLWOOD: Not too much but just too much too fut. PSM[ER MOORES: Pardon, Sir? MR. SMALLWOOD: Not too much but just too muc:h too f&lilt.

PREMIER HOORES: Too much too fast. .And with all due respect, Mr. Speaker, that collling from the member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) is a compliment indeed. Sir, the fact is1 were all of these things necessary? The answer I think is yes, they were necessaey. But what werare lookin~ at today is 1574

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 616 Page 1 - mw were they vital? And the answer to that, Sir, has to be no, they were not vital. I do not suppose there are many things in our society today that one would consider as vital, if you have to have it or not to have it. But to lay blame, Sir, is very easy, To lay blame on 1~hy this was done in the age we lived in and in the mood that we had as a people,is a very easy thing to do, but, Sir, that is now past history, and we must now come to reality with where we are. In that I might just point at the past and talk a moment about the future in the area of municipal affairs.

One of the programmes this government has this year,Which I will be explaining in some detail in a moment, is in the area of housing. Sir, for a lot of people's information, the expenditures of the department, in the area of housing, has increased some 325 per cent since 1970. Housing has averaged forty per cent of the department's budget during the present tenure of this government. The present year the government changed the road paving and reconstruction programme within the communities from a fifty/fifty basis into a sixty/forty cost-sharing basis.

Very recently we announced the new programme which I will be talking about in a few moments regarding grants to homeowners and supplies of building materials. 1~e have also improved the road maintenance grants to councils. It is now $800 a mile for the fiwst five miles and $600 for each mile thereafter. These things, Sir, are important, but as I say I will be dealing with them more fully in just a moment. It has been suggested here, Sir, that we should have anticipated last Spring what was going to happen in Canada.

I suppose it ~auld be equally valid to say that Canada, as a nation, should have anticipated two years ago what was going to happen today. . The United States did. We did not, Sir. We had resources where we felt, as a country, we could survive this international phenomenon called inflation where Western Eu~ope had suffered before and the United States was suffering now. We thought that we could just casually slip by, that all this happened to other countries, and it could never hanpen to us. 1575

December 15, 1975 Premier Moores. Tape no. 616 Page 2 - mw The fact is, Sir, that it has happened to us, and it is happening right now in spades. We were a little later catching up to the United States and to Western Europe. Maybe our wealth and our resources allowed us to do that, but the fact is that we have only caught up or we only put it off for a very short while.

The big difference today, Sir, is that whilst these countr:t·es came to grips with it when it happened, virtually - well certainly the large percentage of Canadians today, Sir, do still not realize , we still do not realize that this dream world of a resource rich country, of a country that just slid along for so long, is no longer a peace-keeping force on the Gaza Stip but a country in trouble on its own, not an international do-gooder who goes out add helps everybody else whenever the chance comes up to do it, but a country who, in fact, has its own problems internally and a country that must deal with them.

I noticed, Sir, the other day that the standard of living in Canada is now the sixth highest in the world, Just a very few years ago it was the second highest. The European Common Market has gone ahead of us, quite a few countries, and we are now sixth. Sir, I say that can be corrected, it has to be corrected, but it is going to take much more courageous actions by governments and by leaders and society than has been done in the past. Sir, the fact is that the tax increases were necessary that we brought in this year. We budgeted, for instance, in the public service in the salaries for eighteen per cent increase.

The fact is, Sir, that we settled, as you know, at twenty-five per cent. The reason for that, I think, is very easily explainable. It did,by the way,cost us some $20 million extra, $20 million more than we had budgeted for which is part of the $30 million deficit. The fact is, Sir, that some people say we should have stood firm and resisted, but that is easier said than done when we consider that our position was not in anyway helped or at4ed and abetted by the Atlantic Provinces stance. The fact is that we had catch-up to do.

The fact is that before, for instance, we settled with the hospital workers, New Brunswick, which shortly before our hosptial workers went to the bargaining table, settled with their hospital workers along, the lines of an eighty per cent 1576

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 616 Page 3 - mw Premier Moores. increase for employees engaged in active bed care and sixty per cent increase for employees engaged in clerical and domestic work. When that, 1577

December 15, 1975 Tape 617 PK - 1 Premier Moores: as an example set by another Atlantic Province, it is very difficult, Sir, when we say that we are trying to catch up to settle for less. As a matter of fact the skill of the Treasury Board and its negotiators in negotiating at the 25 per cent normal average - or average was one that I think we can be proud of in this government and in this Province. The teachers,who had settled for an amount far less than their counterparts in other parts of Canada in previous years 1 fully expected a catch up settlement.

With regard to the teachers, Sir, they were one of the few groups that had not even kept up with inflation, the year before in their two year contract, the year before they actually sat at the bargaining table. The fact is, Sir, inflation in Canada made employees requests all that much more understandable as well. The value of the dollar had gone down, they had not kept up with inflation, and it was a very difficult year to make settlements in the public service or for that matter in any other segment of our society.

So what we got, Sir, we had catch-up, plus inflation, plus expectations and that equalled the budget that we are presently loeking at. Equalization miscalculation of $16 million , if you want to call it a miscalculation- and the Leader of the Opposition says very tritely that where is the correspondence from Ottawa that spells out what you can expect in equalization? As he and others well know, Mr. Speaker, there is no specific correspondence that lays out exactly what you can expect in equalization, that depends on the economj of Canada. What can be done is that you can forecast what will happen.

The fact is, Sir, that jointly with the federal authorities we did forecast what wou~d happen, but we did not know at that time that there would be tax cuts in Ontario, who now has $1.3 billion deficit. We did not know there were going to be tax cuts in Q~ebec, which now has a huge deficit. We did not know there were going to be eax cuts in Alberta, which will not have a deficit for the very obvious reasons that 1578

December 15, 1975 Tape 617 PK- 2 Ptemier ~foores: we all know about. t•e did not know that no oil and gas revenues would be included. The fact is, Sir, that no one in Canada forecast the recession we have had to the degree that we have had it.

The federal government did not progress- .not the federal government, our Canadian nation did not progress for the first time in many, many decades to the degree that we had forecast it would, and when the Canadian government and the Canadian nation does not come forward as we would like to see it,equalization is bound to be affected because our equalization, Sir, only comes from the production and the productivity of the rich provinces of our country and not just the - and the poor ones benefit from that.

The fact is, Sir, we saw increases this year in inflation,! suppose, and the MedicarP l.ommission costs, increased school board grants, grants to special homes, and in the productivity loss through man-hours, man-days and man-weeks and so on which I will be talking about in a few moments time> We did increase the minimum wage from $2.20 to $2.50 because we thought it was necessary for those at the base income to be protected a little more than they were.

But, Sir, when we come to the taxation itself and the taxes that have been used by this government,the fact is that the retail sales tax is the most important single source of revenue for the government. I admit that it is not the fairest tax in existence today. Sir, the simple fact is that each point on the retail sales tax provides some $14 million to $15 million for the government and for the people.

The fact is that the 9 per cent or 10 per cent was examined very closely, and I will come back to that, but the fact is, Sir, what we looked on ~he retail sales tax was what were the essential things that people needed and what were the non-essential things? Today we have no taK on food, no tax on clothing, no tax on heating fuels or coal, no tax on school books, and the housing programme that is being brought 1n both through the grant to new homeowners and to the building materials for those repairing their homes will be the equivalent of approximately 5 per cent of a sales tax. And the 1579

December 15, 1975 Tape 617 PK- 3 Premier Moores: :reason the sales tax reduction was not given to the ho~eowners and to the people who are repairing their homes is because it was felt by Ottawa and ourselves that instead of a reduction in tax where the cost then is passed on by t.he person who sells these ~aterials but rather it is better to give .. it to them in a grant after the deal has been done to ~ke it ~eaningful. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, would the bon. g~tleman allow me to ask him - is it literally correct that there is no Government of Newfoundland taxation on school books? Is that correct?

PREMIER MOORES : That is correct, Sir. MR. SMALLWOOD : I am glad to hear it. It is correct,is it? PREMIER MOORES: Yes, Sir, that is correct, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES : Regarding the 1580

necemher 15, 1~75 PPE~'1E" ~'(1f'l'F.S: T11pe 61R IJl-l ,;;>lE's tax, Sir, Fe h11CI ;on option, we hac1 an option of 9 per cent 11crnss the ho11rc' nr Vl per cent for the real nonessentials. Tt was felt hv this rovernment that a drop in the tax completely on essentials I'M' !"ore clesirahle, snch lls foocl, c]oth:l .nr., heat anc1 say 50 per cent nn shelter, was more 1mport;mt ;mel More clesirable than 9 per cent across the hol!rc1. There wa,; some arr;urnent about, there is no tax room in the future.

Hell, Sir, I venture to say there is very little tax room in the future, hut there is prop,ramme cutt:lnp, room possibly in the future. Rut the fact ts, Sir, that what has heen done here is thnt thP ]...,,., and fixen incomeR "'-nd 1!l:lc1dleincomes people are better off th:m he fore he cause food, she] ter, cl othinp., these necessities of lif<> are no>r tax free ;.~s f,._r as reta:ll snles tax is concerned. There are other nreas ~mere penpl e must have thfnp:s that are st!ill tllxah]e. Rut, Sir, I! lot of the things that are now t ... xahle are nonessenti11ls.

In other wor<"s, what we are heacling for, Sir, is the luxury ti\X - ~·e are not there yet -but a luxury tax, Sir, is not an arhi trary tax with the penalization of the people on ln~rer incomes. For exnmple, Sir, one fir:ure I think that is worthy of ~ention is that 62 per cent of tre huclget of the average family in this Province is spent on rlothinp:, foon, heat ;md shelter, 62 per r.c-nt. ''P. C: I'Al.LHOnn: And all tax free. PRE~IJEP ~IOOPES: J.nd tllat, Sir, basically js all tax free l<ith the shelter he1nr: the equiv11lent of ahout 5 per cent as opposed to 10 per cent. >'1'.

S>'ALLWonn: ?rov:lnciaJ tax. pnf.I"TE" ''00PES: 'T'hnt j s provi nd a] tax and the retail s;o.les tax I 11m talki.nr. of. AN Tl'lN. ''E~'ll"P: Hh11t ahout ferlerlll? PRF.PIET! H(1nr.rs: l"erleral tax, Sir, has ll per cent tax on build:lng material l',l,,hicl, is unforttmate_,hut which unfortunately we cannot 1581

December 15, 1975 influence. ~ I ll • NU!'PHY : Hhat else? Tape 618 IB-2 'PllEMIEll !"001U:S: l1Titat is the ma.1or one on - none that I know of on clothing or heating fuel or food. There is certainly none that I know of. The other step, Sir, we took as this time was to raise the income tax ~y an averar,e of 2 points on the average family which through the documentation ~~e have seen in the budget is not an onerous tax on anyone earning less than $25,000 a year and certainly I think 1nco~e tax is always basically the fairest tax.

But I ~•ant to make one point , Sir, is that the retail sales tax as it is presently applied 1 s a much fairer tax than if it "'as across the board. The fact is that the mi~dle and fixed and lower income people do have a better deal than they ever had before. That is, Sir, a fact and not a fallacy. Sir, we have got to look at, I suppose, one of the most serious aspects of ~mere we 1\re as a Province. That is the programmes of p.ove~ment restraint. We have to take so~ very strong and very toup.h positions regarding p;overnment 's own performance.

It is all very ~~ell for us to look at labour and to look at managP.~ent and to look at the in.clividual and say to you that you have to sel £­ discipline and curtail your expenditures and What you do. But, Sir, that should not, nor can 1t be done, without p.overnment showing the way.

Sir, whilst these programmes are going to be tough - and I l ~ :lll he p;P.tting 1nto them in a minute - there is light at the end of the tunnel. v.fe are a very rich Province ,and it can be done. lfuat we are doing now, Sir, in effect is for our own good because if we do What has to be done today, we ~•ill have a brighter tomorrow. ~ut i f w e c:lo not do ~•hat has to be done today, Sir, I venture to say that tomorrow wil J be much darker, very dark 1.ndeec:l. We have to cut back on public services. He must cut back and set an example on r,overnment spend1.np;. We must cut back on progra~m~es and perfomance 1582

~Pre~hP T J'), ]~]5 P!'T:''TF.l' ''111ll'F,f: Tape 618 JB-3 nf •·"'At ~re •··nnld 1He to c!o. The chall.enrE> 1s there and tht> resC\urce~, ~ir, smd tl•e resnt1rcP are<t of ClUJ: economy .:11) bt> our prim;ity . Jlut ns the hon. l!'eMhC'r for T•·•i 1) inyote (~r. ~""~-.] 1 wnoc') !':>ys, wP IIJUSt cu r h11r.k on our bor ro,.':lnp. nf course . 'l'h<tt 1s

pArt Clf it. p, hnve, ~1r , and l<'e plan to cio, frP.eze all h1ri.nr. ancl overtil'!e t.-1th1n thP public !'P.n dce except in the case nf "irinp.. ..mere tt>e pe rFon 1 s al-solutel y neP!le ci . l'aj<>r coru;t ruction pror.rl\l'!meS ~•:Ill, and ha s hPen SpE'lle!l O\tt, w1J) be ~eferrPd . That is not easy for the person t·'hn i.s expec:t1nr a netor hospj tal or a neH roacl CIT 1'1 new titRt~>ver 1 '-nt the fact is there is no choice. 1·'e tC\~ether with them, - ~ overnment s do not do this beeau ~e they wnnt to. r~vernment~ do this because i.t fs re!'pomdhJe to !lo it.

Si r, before rotnn C\n ~nth all these things we can overtax. J sny WE' are close to overtnxing our population rif.ht now. 1583

December 15, 1975 _!.;-~f!!.~r __ ~or~~- Tape no. 619 Page 1 - mw I say, Sir, that at this particular point in our history cutting on programmes, cutting back on expectations, cutting back on services is what we are going to have to look at rather than increasing taxes over and over again. If the bon. P~emier will allow me, to clarify the matter, to clear the air, what the hon. gentleman is talking about is the next couple or three years, not the rest of our histbry, but the next year or two or three, right? PREMIER MOORES : Yes, Sir, I would hope so.

The fact is that I think what we are talking about here with the help of the bon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), I think what we are talking about here is facing up to reality as the federal government has said for three years in their case, as the provinces have said, we will go along with wage and price control for eighteen months and then review it. Of course, Sir, we are talking about the immediate and not the long~~erm. I think the future of this Province in the long-term has one of the brightest futures of any part of Canada or any part of this world for that matter.

We must come to grips with reality now. We must take these programmes and come to grips with them now. lVhat we are saying· .. Sir, for instance in hospital construction, is that we are deferring them for one year, at least, one year when they will be looked at again. Then they will be looked at and according to our economic position, other decisions made. Sir, we must look after our own housekeeping internally. The fact is that cutbacks on waste or fat or extravagance or whatever you want to call it, within the government i~self, has to be the first thing to be dealt with.

Minor things like elected members and officials, the elected members and the officials of government, will not be travelling first-class, okay, fair enough, that is not very major, the same orders to government agencies. No official government dinners or receptions will be held except where circumstances are exceptional. Sir, this is not politically palatable or desirable but the fact is it is realistic. Ministers and officials have been directed to limit official entertainment.

The Speaker's reception, Sir, you might remember, was dry as was the Minister of Finance's as a matter of fact, hfs was nonexistent, I think, if the truth were known. 1584

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 619 Page 2 - mw MR. __ S~L_I~09D: (InaudilJ.l\

e) l'REn l.E_! ~.QR.ES: Sir, that was not his personal one, that was the one for the press. It has been ordered that temporary employees, who are presently being employed by the government,be let go wherever possible; that hirings be limited to cases where they are absolutely essential and cannot be done without. In other words, Sir, there will be no new hirings within the Civil Service this year except for key personnel. Health care costs have to be looked at, Sir. The fact that the capital costs of a hospital,for instance,in two or three years repeats itself in current costs.

I do not know if people realize that around this Province, Sir. If a new hospital is built for $20 million, like the hosnital at Carbonear we will use as an example, in three years it cost $20 million to keep that hospital in operation on a current account. So every new hospital that is built, every three years in current account, it costs the same amount to keep that hospital open. Sir, that boils down to the fact that retrenchment and the cutting of programmes is really what we are talking about.

Sir, we may be talking about steps as critical as not just stopping hospital construction, we may be very tvell looking at. before the end of next year, the possibility, if needs be, of cutting down on hospital beds, if that has to be done, hospital beds in existing hospitals. The fact is, Sir, school boards,even though they are autonomous to a very large degree, they also must be made to realize that there is no money tree and that restraints and cutbacks may be in order in their arena as well as in ours.

The fact is as we have said many times that seventy-five per cent of our budget, our current account is inflexible . Well, Sir, it is only inflexihle if we keep up the services 1ve have. The fact is that it may have to become very flexible by cutting back some of the services we presently have. People, Sir, have got to realize, people have got to realize that these are difficult times and it is going to take difficult measures to deal with them. That, Sir, will be the message of this government.

Do you realize, Sir, that we are one of the very few provinces in Canada that does not have a premium for hospital services? Maybe we do have to look 1585

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 619 Page 3 - mw Premier Moores. at A premium for hospital costs. 1 am not saying ve do, but it is something that ve may have to look at. Sir, in my opinion, the federal government, when we sav them at the Pr emier's conference- or the first minister ' s met witp the PriEe Minister not long ago, it was the intent stated by the Minister of Finance that the fiscal and monetary policy of canada would not be affected by the wage and price control. Sir, 1 1586

~ecember 15, 1975 PT"f.''TF.l' ''f1f1T'F:~: Tape 620 IB-1 1'"1:1<1 then and t ~vil1 say now that there is no t.~y any federal pro!(ramme •rill be effective as long as their fiscal and monetary programmes are not slashed as well. Sir, by slashing them this Province is going to find it as much as any others. But I think with our unemployment as it :Is we can afford it least of any other. I think the federal people realize this hut I think also they are go:f_ng to have to play their

part in setting the example if we are go:!.ng to fight inflation. As I say, Sir, it w:lll hurt us to a degree but it has to be clone. The fact is, Sir, that Ottawa have taken some ateps like cutting h<1ck on overtime in their employees. They have talked about no new furn:ltures :In the IT'injster's offices and this sort of thing. That S:lr, 1s nCit enough. The social programmes of r.anada today outwe:l.gh, nnfortunately,out•re:l .gh the fiscal responsib:llity we find outselves in.

I sup,r;est, Sir, that the federal government, we w:lll find the federal governl"'ent having to curtail the expansion of social programmes as ~-re have 1<-nov>n. them :In the past. It is something certainly that Newfound Janel cloes nc>t -..rant to see. It is not something that our people really are preparecl to accept. It is something, Sir, that all Canadians are ro:lnr, to have no choice hut to accept. ~'un1cipaJ. 1ties :In our own Province have to limit their expectations. They have to J.:lmit their expectRtions, Sir, to their capahi]ties to pay.

The clay of the two dollars a month water and se~·'erage project has 1 ong gone. The fact is that no water a.nd sewage programme can be put in toclay at t~o clollars a month or five dollars n mo11th or ten dollars a month. Hell, ten collars a month I guess :!.s r:ett:lnp; close in some casf's. But the fact is that these very P.XP.nsive proiects, S'!r, just do not come out of the air. They have to he p11i.d for by the people. J suggest, Sir, they ~-1ill have to be paid for by those peop) e t··ho are demanding them. Sir, as I saic'l, ~.;e have housing, we have the necessity for t~en..

Rut t-7e are talking about the ability of this Province to manage :mel !T'eet the chnllenp,es 11nd crtses at hand. This, Sir, br:l .ngs me bad- to the ma:!n, I suppose, the majn theme of what I am saying. Our 1587

neeember 15, 1975 T'RE1'IEl' "OO!'Ef- : Tape 620 people must realize, Sir, that we have a future, that He have a bright future, but the ehallenge is r:reater than we have been usec't to for a long while. The faet is that there is a eris:ls, not just IB-2 in ~ewfoundland and Labrador but also in our eountry and in all other provinees, and for that matter in the Western world. r.ovemments have to eut baek. l<'e, like the individuals, Sjr, have been cutting it high, wide and handsome. In this regard, Sir, whilst I say that govem!'llents have to eut back also management has to cut hack.

You talk about the fooc't freeze,or the freeze on food that the supe~arkets have gone thr.oug~, that is to be commended. But, Sjr, there is more than that has to be done. Greediness and selfishnP.ss in the eorporate world today should be punished if it is abused. It should he punished in no uneertain terms by provincial or federal governments, whoever is responsible, anc that, Sir, is also part of the things that have to be done. Not Jeast, Sir, is Jabour. The labour movement in this Province have got to face reality.

The fact is, Sir, up until November this year there were 293,000 man-clays lost in eleven m.onths, three times what it was the year before, 1200 men or women on strike every work:l.ng day of the year, 1200 men off the job. The fact is, Sir, if we ar.e to eompete as a country and if we are to compete as a Province, producttvity must be our guideline, it must be our objective and w:lth that sort of man-hours lost, that will never be nchieved. sm'E noN. ~'F.l'-'llEPS : Rear! Hear ! P1>F.~1IER MOOPES: Now, Sir, ~•e are looking at wildcat strikes, legitimate strikes, the "'hole hall of wax.

In this Province I think it ia fair to say that the labour movement have mane a great deal of progress in a very short numher of years. Rut vrith progress there goes responsibility. That has not been the case in all cases in this past vear particularly. The fact is, Sir, that strikes :l.n the essential serv:l.ces are something that I would suggest union management look at vd.th r;reat r.esponsihf] i ty because responsible they must be. Because 1588

nece~her 15, 1975 l'T')')fTf: l' V(lO"T:f. :. tape 620 the fact is, ~ir , th~t eovernment nor our people will ever a~ain, c-r not f.or the foreseeable future, go along with a responsibility just for the sAke of provin~ co point. Il\-3 The fact is, Sir, a lot of people will arr.ue today about the rfp.hr to strike in essential services, whether 1t Rhoulc.l be final offer Rnlect:fon!l or "-hether it should be binrlinp. >trhitration. The only w<ty 1589

December 15, 1975 Tape 621 PK - 1 Premier Moores: that unions of today can offset that becoming a reality of tomorrow , I would suggest, Sir, is by being responsible and realizing that their

part in society is to play their part as well. I might say, Sir, that last year Newfoundland's down-time was twice the Canadian average. Sir, if we are going to live within the Anti-Inflation lloard's guidelines 1 to•hich we must, we have no choice because we have got to go along with the federal programme.

I may not personally agree with the mefthod that people have laid down for that programme, but the fact is that is the only programme that is presently in existence, and whether we totally like it or totally dislike it is really academic, it is there to be tried and it is this government's. management's, and labour's responsibility to try it. The fact is, Sir, your government will act rapidly. At any time when we see productivity or at any time when we see irresponsibility loose in this Province within the next year.

The fact is, Sir, that our Province - having said all of the things that we must do and all the things, the hard points that we have to live up to-the fact is then our Province does have hope, even though it may have sounded at times this afternoon that it did not. The fact is, Sir, our Province does have a great deal of things going for us. But, Sir, we have got to switch the pitch somewhat as to "torhat we are going to do in the future and how we are going to do it. Jobs must be created.

But, I suppose, Sir, it is fair to say that the jobs that will be created in the next year or two will not be the glamourous ones of the past, the ones that have been promised but very few achieved, but rather the less glarnourous ones that in fact our people are more equipped to do.

The more mundane things like handicrafts whereby a government becomes involved in ensuring that supplies for the handicraft industry in our society are made available, whereby there are groups set up to ensure that the quality comes up to a certain standard, and whereby the marketinR of our products is not just for Newfoundland but do have the international flavour of the Norweigian .knitware or the Icelandic sweater or what have you, but something that people can take pride in and do. It is not very glamourous, 1590

December 15, 1975 Tape 621 PK- 2 Premier Moores: something that people can take pride in and do. It is not very glamourous, but it can be done. The area of fish farming where - it is being smirked at on the other side- not a major thing admittedly. The fact is, Sir, that it will create jobs, it will create productivity; smoking eels, all these things, all very minor 1 but there are enough of them put together that can make an impact in certain areas. The blueberry one,which came into so much ridicule a few days ago.

The access roads to blueberry grounds, the blueberry farms that can be done, the cooking of the product, preserves or fish as well. Take for instance, Mr. Speaker, a small pilot project in Conception Bay and one in Bonavista Bay to further treat the berry industry which has a potential of about 6 million pounds to 8 million pounds - take that as an example of what could be done.

While a lot of people in this I House do not realize I suppose, Sir, is that fable fop Foods is an example operating in the New England States to some 4 million to 5 million pounds of our berries employs some 400 to 500 people all year around. That, Sir, maybe is something to be sneered at by people across the ~7ay, the fact is that MR. SMALLWOOD: Hold on now! P'P.EMIER !llORES: - that sort of thing - some people across the way. But the fact is, Sir, that these things are important.

Rural development opportunities - there is a great deal that has to be done here in the way of helping with management expertise, co-ordinating our effort in the way of rural development as to which areas we can help most. The fact is that sawmills, for instance, can have central yards for the buying of lumber,for the upgrading and the marketing of lumber, so that there can be a stability on the market return to the people in the sawmill industry. These things can be done, Sir.

Agricultural products,the same as all government departments, that our product in the agricultural field is used first in our own institutions,as they can be. The same thin~ with our sawmills and our lumber production. Not major stuff. Not big. But things that 1591

"c· ccml-<' r 1 5 • t" 7 5 T;mc No . 621 PK - '3 I'PP.''I":" ~ ·nnnF.~: C'"'n hr donP- nnd t l,ini'J'l thnt cnJ'lt verv little money . ~ "AJ.I,t.li'V\": Would the hon . thr. Prt>m1 e r ;lllo•~ another rude Interrup tion? nm :>n Much i n IIP.T<'emcnt 1<ith IJhat the hon. yentlemAn is ~:lv!nr , , .. 1,,.. t h~ r he.> i~; interP~tcd or no t in my i n terest, the fact i!> thAt I l··oulcl Jikc to a.-;k hl111 ish<' ovt'rlook1np the tens of thousand~ of hrir,ht vounr. "'ec,•foundlnndt>r!: •~ho have heen pour1n ~ OUl o f the University Jlnd t h<' t r :~de and technical schools?

They too, you k nm~, t hey are not ju!'t r.oinp, to p.o bnck at hnndi craft anti r~ckinp. hlucberries and what have ynu . l'l'F."TP' " O'll'f.S : 1.11:<' the hon. member f rom Twi.llinga te ("r. Sm.'\llwood) , !H r, l h:w<> not f1ni r.hed vet, 1592

December 15, 1975, Tape 622, Page 1 -- anb PREMIER MOORES : so I will come to that in a moment. The fact is, Sir, in the fishery,which I will come to now,is that there are different boats going to be required, new programmes will be required. But,Sir, before any fishery can be talked about in this Province, if we are talking about a middle­ water or a near-water or inshore fishery - whatever we want to call it - before that will ever be viable again to a meaningful degree the 200 mile limit has to come into effect.

Now that can be done through negotiations, like there has been with Norway recently -which for all working purposes is the equivalent of. It can be done in many ways.

But the fact is, Sir, until that programme comes into effect it will be impossible to have the inshore fishery at the stage that we or they or anyone would like to see it for the very simple reason it will, until that comes into effect, programmes will have to be subsidized, reople in the industry will have to be subsidized and that is a reality of life. gir, when we talk about putting in the 200 mile limit there is one thing that I do not think many people have realized what will happen. Canada gets first crack of the whip when we go out to fish on the Continental Rhelf.

The fact is, Sir, today for every one ton of shinping leaving Canada to fish there are eighty-three tons of Euroneans out there. Now that is boat capacity I am talking about not catching capacity. The fact is, Sir, when we have have the right to catch this fish on the Continental Shelf it will mean that we as a Province nor as a nation will have anywhere near the capacity to take the total sustilinable yield. l>'e .1ust will not have it. Sir, if we are not going to have it then we should be doing something about it now.

When we are talking about these huge and really rna~ificent fleets of European ships that are fishing out there,some of these neople have already been in touch with us saying that we know that we are goinr to have to take our shins home, we know that we are not going to be able to fish, we know that you are not going to be able to catch it.So we go for half-time 1which is totally economically 1593

December 15, 1975, Tape 622, Page 2 -- aph PREMIER MOORES: unf~Asihle - not feasible - or. we start to co-operate now. The possibility is, Sir, the real possibility is, that we can talk to some of these countries and ~et their ships landing here. With their ships landing here it is not interfering with the inshore fishermen, it is not interfering with_South Coast fishermen, the fact is, this is still within the quota sustainable yield basis that the International Conference of North Atlantic Fisheries and the Canadian Government will have set down. MR.

SMALLWOOD:: If the hon. the Premier will allow me again: Does he suggest - this thing for years has been absolutely fascinating to me and the hon. gentleman may remember that I was active in it with the Portugese the Japanese the Spanish and so on­ Does he suggest that this fish should be landed without the payment of duty to the Government of Canada, landed in bond in Newfoundland, processed in Newfoundland employing all Newfoundlanders except for a few key technicians,perhaos, and what does the hon. gentleman suggest should happen to the fish after it iR landed,bv some arrangement,processed, what should then happen to it?

Should it be required to go back to the countries of the ships of origin or to be allowed to be marketed in competition with our own locally caught fish? Would the hon. gentleman address himself to that because this is surelv one of the biggest questions to come before our attention for decades past. PREMIF:R MOORES: That is right. Gladly, Mr. Speaker. I will gladly answer those Questions asked by the hon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood).

The fact is that the idea would be to have the fish either land in bond or to have them register as Canadian ships put through Canadian companies and move, in fact, to Canada/Newfoundland. MR. SMALLWOOD: PREMIER MOORES: But they would not pay duty. No, that is for the boat now. have the boat actually fish as a Newfoundland boat. MR. SMALLWOOD: PREMIER MOORES: MR. SMALLWOOD: The boat nor the fish would not pay duty. The boat nor the fish would pay duty. Neither. 1594

December 15, 1975, Ta~e ~22, Page 3 -- a~b PRf.!oofiE R M()()Rf.S : Rir,ht. The fact is, Sir, that what we want to do is not "just have one r>rocessinp, centre 1 an in-bond j)Ort, U you like, but ra ther to suprly the rresently very under-utilized fish caoacities in this Prov ince. The fish plant capacity in this Province today is heinr. \It Hized les!l th11n 30 per cent of thE' nossible capacity and that, Sir, is no wav for any industry to be coiJII)etitive, it is no way for any industry to even survive. We have been very fortunate in this Province that we have been allowed to.

The idea wou~d be, Sir, to land this fish here, either as landed ships that have registered in Canada or have by aj!;reement with the Canadian Government will land here, either one or the other, pro·cess the fish . and what a lot of people also do not realize, Sir, is that the American markets have always been considered the traditional frozen fish markets for Newfoundland, the salt fish has always been Portup:al, Spai n, Greece, the Caribbean and Brazil, t sunrose. The fact is, Sir, that by this system when the 200 1595

nece1'1her 15, 1975 Tape 623 IB-1 PREMIER MOORF.S: T"iJe ] 1mit co111es into effect, when the Europeans are not catchinp the quantities they are cRtching now, the fact,I would sug~est, Sir, is that the best l'larket, the 111ost lucrative market, those people best ~h 1 e to pay And those people t.rho want the product most t-dll be the Vurope11ns !'lore so than the tracliticmal American market. I would say the A!Tlerican marl~et wi 11 stay as it is now. But the fact is, Sir, thRt the firitlsh eat something over thirty-two pounds per person per year.

The r.erm11ns in Northern Germany over forty-four pounds per persnn per year, and the Pnited States is between six and seven pounds per person per year. The difference, ~ir, js that Europeans knot•' fish. They like f:lsh . /lmeric;ms,ancl I:Rnaclians for that matter,have f:lsh in the main because it :1 s either a. cheRp meal or it us en to be Frioay. I have to talk to my coJJeagues, so1'1e of my collea!1;ues about that, Sir. This wouJ cl be a higher ouaJ :1 ty because it would be a oui cker turn-arouncl . _!'RBt-<IEP t-'OOP.ES: ~ ·r.

S~'AU .~.tO(ID: Th~tt is right. nut vouJd the hon. the Premier inform ll'e of this: The fish thl".t t·•oulcl he brought in in that t•?aY to existinr plRnts that are nm.r unrler usP.cl, would that fish lose its identity in those plants or would it be 1--.ept separate from the, what you mip:ht cal], the Jocal]y proclucecl fish? rrm'IEJ' Y00PES: I th:lnk, Sir, it is probably too early at this t:l.me to say exac.tl v ho~· th<1t tmulcl he hancllecl. I would think probably it 1-'0Hlrl be on a hulk contract hRsis, based on world prices so that there 1Voulo be no in-house r1eals but to get the maximum return.

I think that is the sort of cetaiJ, Sir, that certainly has to be worke~ out i'!S ,,.e] J ;~.s a Rreat 1'1any others we are tall<ing about here. But the pri.nc:lple ren1lY i!' ..,.,]·~tt J am clriv1ng at this afternoon,and the s11me applies to herrinp reprocess:l.nP- anrl so on. Now, ~ir, to move on to the next subject in resouce clevelopment: The manap;ement pJ an for the forestry manaP-ement of our Province which 1596

ne~emher 15, 1975 !-IR. MOORES: Tape 623 IB-2 has such a traumatic effect on the sawmill operators of the Province ani! T.abrarlor T":l.nerh0arrl l'i J J of which l"e have more than half an interest in, the fact is that forestry plan will be brought i.nto bejng, I HouJd hope - I hope the minister is listeni.ny - very ouickly. The fact is that we have to set a deadline on that and make sure that that becomes l"anar:eah]e ancl operahle very quickly. lr~e have to en.coura~e, Si.r, mineral exploration and' production. The fact is t.h<1t tl,e mineral re~ources of this Provinee have been vastly under-explored.

Some lJould say it is because of the concessionary syste!T' that has gone before~and that frol!!. year to year is chanj!;inp; to a claim stnking system very rapidly. Sir, lolhilst all these rural developl!!ent and resource developl'lent industries of what some people in this Province consider mun(lane, the fact is, Sir, the fishery is .,]most J ooked upon as munrlane today in this Province, certainly in Canada. Rut the fact is if you ~o to Rurope today, if you go to Grimshy in F:np:J,nd, if you go to Hamburp, if you go to any of these large cities :In T\urope they consicle .r the fishery to be a T"ajor industry.

Sir, I say it can he here. But !!lost people consic1er these things fairly !"nndane> nnd that hl'ls to he cha.np:ed. Rut, Si.r, larger industries must also be established. The fl'lct that you <1re tl'llking about resource (levelopment does not say you are c1oing away ~11th industrial development as we have known it. But there hl'ts to he a difference, Sir. The larger industries and the inc1ustr:I<'J development has to be basec1 on those thinp:s that are natural to us) primarily the basics but a re-emphasis of effort to the resource hased :lnnustrjes.

But the fact is larger industries must be carrie(! on •rith as we]]. I wjJl five an example, Sir, of what I am talkin~ about. If we have an :lndustrv, for instance, if offshore oil - I have to under] ine the ifs, Sir- is c1iscoveretl and concrete platforms such as they are hui J.rljng :In Nonmy today l'tre necessary, it is total J y naturR1 to huHd these :fn Newfounc1Janc1 and La.brador. 'fhe fact is, Si.r, you are ]ookin)'; at - "'hen vou are talklng about a concrete platform, you have 1597

necemher 15, 1~75 PROOER MOORF.S: Tape 623 IB-3 Umest one in Port au Port,you have the labour, you have the deep wate r port, you have the human resource to build them and so on. Tha t is totally natural to us and very little importation of tl'arket or of goocls , we can t!o it here. That fact is, Sir, that is the Rort of thing - a zinc smelter , For instance we have a zinc mine on the Northern Peninsula now. The fact is with another zinc mine of almost the same size or a little larp.er , a zinc smelter would be a bona fide and rP.asonahle operation .

If 1t is so~ething that is based on soMethin~ we have and somethinp, •·•e l're p.eareri to ric-, of course "eavy industry should be loo~ed at anr Pncourared in every way possible. Well, Sir, I have rone th r ou~th ~1hat 1 thinlt has to be done in the way of cuts by our own e~ple, talkjnr a"out the rPsponsihility of other p,roups in soc i ety, rnlk i nr about our taxes and why the increases were necessary ~nd talkjn~ about resource develop~nt and where we are at. Pe, l'ir, are 1598

December 15, 1975 Tane no. 624 Page 1 - mw Premier Moores. proud of the record of this government of the past few years,and the ambitions and the aspirations of this government in the coming years and the years ahead will be indeed major. Our responsibility is to create jobs and to combat inflation. I will be talking about that just before I close, but before I do it would be wrong, Sir, for me not to respond to the Opposition- the official Opposition,that is- on the attitude they have taken in this particular debate.

Sir, it is almost incredible that the official Opposition of this Province could say that we should away with the school tax, knowing the situation as it is, that we should re-install the mothers' allowance. They have said, Sir, that education, salaries, grants to school boards, busing and so on must all be improved. They have said that health, grants to boards, clinics and hospitals must be built because the people need them. No one is arguing with these things, Sir, but what they do not say is how they are supposed to be paid for.

They do not say- by the way, there is no tax increases to go along with this either. There is no programme with Ottawa. There is borrowing. How much borrowing should we do,~ir, and what deficits should we run up? One election promise by the Opposition that all highways will be paved in this Province in three years, just for the sake of the record, Sir, that would cost $285 million per year, which is over double out total borrowing for every other thing today. llunicipal Affairs and housing, water and sewerage should be approved. There should be tax reductions, not tax increases.

Resource departments, there is a lack of constructive ideas as what should be done. They say it should be done but they do not say how. The fact is, Sir, that their attitude in this whole debate has been one where platitudes have come easy but responsibility has been impossible. I would suggest, Sir, with all due respect, to my many friends in the official Opposition, and I say this with all due concern and sincerely,that at this particular point in our history this is not the time for even games that one can get away with. This is a time for responsibility 1599

December 15, 1975 Premier Moores. Tape no. 624 Page 2 of the game of making this Province survive and getting on with the job that has to be done without the political platitudes that we have heard. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: I will not, Sir, spend, and I had a great many notes here on talking about the position of the Opposition but I will not because I think there is no mileage in just standing here and slamming what someone has said and slamming you. I think there is very little future in that for any of us.

But, Sir, in closing I would like to say that the quality of life that we have in our Province, even though most of us in this Province probably do not realize it, is unique. We have a way of ~ife in our Province that is something that would be the envy of most people living in this world but we naturally take it for granted. I suppose in many ways so we should. We have, Sir, some of the things that people living in other parts of the world would give a great deal to have.

As a matter of fact two friends of my wife and myself were down here last week for their holidays - the first week in December,if you can imagine that - but they found the people of this Province, the way of life in this Province, the environment of this Province itself, to be so unique as to be just something that, as I say, we far too easily take for granted. The fact is, Sir, that in our Province today, I s~y our problem is more sociological than it is economic. We have economic problems, and there is a lot that has to be done about it.

But the biggest problem we have is changing the attitude of our people so that we do realize how well off we are, that we do realize that the things we have are worth a great deal, and that we do realize what has to be done to combat and save our Province for the future. Sir, one of the ironic things that happened this year that surprised me was the farm that was set up out here in the Goulds or Kilbride, wherever it was, where there were some 400 farm lots for the city dweller to use to grow his own vegetables if he wanted to. All those lots were over-subscribed.

People went out and grew their own vegetables and got a kick out of doing it, and it worked very, very well. It cost literally nothing. The ironic

part is, Sir, that here is the urban dE~ller who is doing this -and we will have a great deal more of it this year by the way and other urban locations in the Province- 1600

Dccemher 15, 1975 Premier Moores. Tape no. 624 Page 3- mw but the ironic

part is that there are so many people living in rural Newfoundland who used to do this as a way of life who today will not do it under any circumstances. That seems so 1601

necemher 15, 1975 PREMIER MOORES: Tape 625 pecu) i ar tn me to fine' the city tlwel ler p:oing and r,rc>ldnr, his Olm IB-1 vepetahles <mel the rur11l rlweJler,Hho rlicl it fc>r so many years,refusing to do it toc'ay. Ther~ is something here that has tc> be looked at, Sir, 11s far !lS our attitucles are concemec'l ;md our vaJHes are concerned. It is not a stigma. Thrre is no st:lgma atte~cherl to the fact that one fs se) f-sufficient. I can give an example of the man who the hon. member for 'rld)]inr:ate ("r. S!T'allvoocl) ancl the hon. Leac'l.er of the Opposition and other people He] 1 kno~·, ~·r.

Bob Hann who works in the vocational school and tlr,.,rn in the dining room here. I asked him the other c'ay "m11t his monthly Rrocery hill was for five people, and he told me e:lght.y dol111rs a month. I could not believe it. The fact is he raises so111e sixty sheep. He has got his fish down for the Winter. lle grows his o"'!l potatoes, turnip, cabbage. The man has got his own J obster. He has his own berri.es. But this is somethinJ?; he does on his weekenrls. This is something he tloes as an unusually enterprising man.

Rut there is a message there, Sir, that certainly I suppose all of us coulc'l, if we cannot all do it, we can certainly respect it. Sir, jn Norway whi.ch :Is not unlil<e Newfoundland - it is richer :l.n many ways today - hut I would suggest, Sir, it is richer in attitude than in any other way. There was an

article in the paper the other day and it says that the polls show Norwegians favored quite and simple lHe. The Gallup poll done in Norway, Sir, showed that - and it is a rural comrnunity in the main except for Oslo, Stavanger and Bergen, but in the main it is a rural community. Norway is very si.milar to Newfotmdland - seventy-six per cent of those asked said the standard of JivJnp was too high. Only one per cent found it too l.mJ. Seventy-fC'Iur per cent saiif they would prefer a quieter and simpler life. This I find incredible.

It shows a maturity, I suggest, Sir,or maybe an over-maturity, maybe almost a reactionary thing, to C'lur world society. It shm,,s something thoup.h that we, as a people, could look at as well_ Recause I do not suppose there is any 1602

n~cemher 15, 1975 l'RY.M'If.R MOORF.S : '~'.Ape fi25 IB-2 pAr,J1eJ situatinn mnre similar to Newfrmnolancl 's than the country of ' lnnJay, T think, In the makeup of Hs p€'ople and the makeup e>f its terndn :ond the m:~keup of :f.ts :Industry. Sir, as I say the ouality of life :Is really what is important in this Province. The future of this Province, as I have said before, is there to be h.Ar1. But it is only there to be had if we, the people ,.,ho J :Jve here, have the nhility and the detenl'ination and the wherewithal to do it.

It means, Sir, that ,,,e are Roing to have to pull to?,ether, anrl that means mem~ers of the Opposition and members of this sine as '"ell. 'T'he challenp.;e is · tough. Rut, Sir, if we expect Otlr people in thiR Prov:f_nce to respond to the challenge, we in p:ovemll'ent, the Opposit:f on, a] J members of this House ll'nst shm·• an example by also respondinp. tn the challenge in a meaninp.ful and positive Hay. ~ir, the time h~s cnme for us as a province to fRee renlity. If ~re face realitv ton<>y.tomorrov will be much briF;hter than even He realize.

Eut if ~•e do not, as I said before, it is going to he .A bitter clay :fnneed. We must face reality. Sir, I c1o not thi.nk there is any ouestion that we will all be better off in the J ong run. Thank you. Hear! !lear! _ '!' . SPEAKEP; The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde O'r. F. l'owe). HI'. 1'. Tl01-ffi: }'r. Speaker, the hon. the Premier has not enl:f ghtened this Assembly vrhatsoever ,,r:lth respect to any questions or enquiries this sicle of the Ponse has put to him since the amendment, the sub­ :~mendment and now we are into the main motion.

Sir, the Premier has failer1 utterl y to .AnsvJer one sinple question or enquiry that h:ts hC'en put to thE> rovern~ent stele in this debate 1 and this is our m-Aier ~ornp] ;dnt be~ause this hils heen our complaint over the last three nr four or five- four years. ~ir, the Premier stands here toc1:~y anc1 ilccuses the Opposition, the official Opposition 1 of being irresponsible durin g this debate thus far, of being irresponsible. Hhy are we being accuserl of hein~ irresponsi.ble? Because, Sir, the 1603

December 15, 1975 Tape 625 IB-3 MR. RO'WF.: hon. the PreTflier sugp:ests that vre <Ire plaving games, play:lnf gaTf1es! ~ir, we have stoo~ here time ano time again in sittings past <1nd during this present sitting and have asked the government to level with the people of this Province with respect to the financial !":fttt<ttion. 1604

December 15, 1975 Tape 626 PK - 1 Mr • .!:_. Rowe : Now we are being accused of playing games. Sir, nothing can be further from the truth. Sir, I would suggest that if anybody in this Province should stand accused of playing games it is the administration of this Province at this present time, particularly during the election campaign. Who was playing ga~es then, Sir? Hho l'\ade all of the promises? Who set the stage with respect to our financial position leading into that election?

Sir, if there is any p,roup of people in this Province today who stand accused of being irresponsible it has to be members opposite who survived that election, and who did not indeed survive that election. Because, Sir, a misleading picture, and I am not saying a deliberately mis­ leading picture, but a misleading picture, a false picture, an untrue picture, certainly not a correct picture was painted of the financial position of this Province, In this hon.

House, Sir, with a few members and certain members of the press and a few spectators in the gallery, it was in this Rouse that we came close to the truth - it was in this House that we came close to the truth with respect to the true financial picture of this Province. It was in this House, ~ir, I repeat, with only a few spectators, a few members of the press and the fifty-one members of this Assembly present, that is 1vhere we are start:lng to come close to the truth, Sir. What was irresponsible, Mr.

Speaker, was the fact the members opposite during a campaign,person to person,on the hustings, via the printed media through advertisements, paid advertisements, and through radio advertisements, and through the powerful influence of TV advertising, this administration, Sir, painted a completely different picture f~om the one that we see before us today. That is irresponsibility, Sir, of the first order aimed at the electorate, aimed at the voter, aimed at the adults and the children of this Province in the three weeks prior to September 16, and the weeks and months leading up to that election.

There is the true irresponsibility, Sir, not the criticism and not the words of the official Opposition during this Assembly. 1605

December 15 , 1975 Tape 626 PK - 2 Mr. ~· Rowe; Sir, quite frankly I could not believe my ears in listening to the Premier of this Province, Sir, who I said the other day was a very and is a very astute politican, but I have grave doubts about the Premier's capacity to administer this Province.

But, Sir , it is very difficult to sit over here and swallow the charges made by the Premier today when we asked a few questions to which we have not received all the answers yet, and we witness a three week intensive campaign of painting a false pictu re of the true financial position of this Province, Sir, because how can this administzation give the impression that the Lower Churchill is ready to go? And I said before , and I will say a~ain,it was not the m.embers of the Liberal Party who blasted off the dynamite on both sides of the Strai ts of Belle Isle. 1606

December 15, 1975 Tape 627 PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: It was the bon. Premier who blasted off the dynamite, and, Sir, must have known the problems that we are now encountering with respect to the development of the Lower Churchill. Sir, it was the Premier on Here and Now - look ,Mr.

Speaker, the Premier says one of the three main reasons why his government has had to take the action that they are taking- let us call it the restraint programme, the deferral programme, or the truth programme1 whatever you want to call it- the three main reasons for their price and wage controls by the federal government, that was one reason; the inflationary spiral - well the price and wage controls or guildelines are meant obviously to take care of the inflationary spiraljand the Gull Island problems - the Gull Island project problems.

These were the three major factors that the Premier suggested'today for the restraint programme. Now, Sir, if that is the case why do we only hear about it in recent weeks7 The Premier of this Province, Sir, went on television immediately or some days following the Prime Minister's statement of philosophy or policy with respect to the price and wage guidelines, ann Premier went on Here and Now on CBC and stated before the people of Newfoundland that he had been urging the Prime Minister of Canada to take this action for some eighteen months.

Well, Sir, if this is the case, if this was the case, and the Premier of this Province had been urging the Prime Minister of Canada to take this action for eighteen months, for a year and a half, what business did the Premier of this Province ar.d his colleagues have in going around saying, "Gull Island: A-Okay! Ready to go, ready for blast off!'"What business did the government have in going around promising new stadiums in thts Province? What business did the Premier have in going around promising that the new hospitals were going to go ahead on schedule, sticking up signs on the Burin Peninsula?

What business did the Premier have in making inflationary settlements with the public service and ·with the teachers of this Province? Wherein lies the irresponsibility, Sir, admitted by the Premier,again on TV, if I can quote the Premier, 1607

December 15 , 1975 Tape f> 27 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: admi'ttedly, the Premier said, admittedly we have made some inflationary settlements over the past few months." These are the words of the Premier of this Prortnce, Sir, these are t.he words of the Premier of this Province when he said he was trying to ecflnvin.ce the Prime Minister of this ~reat nation of tbe necessity for taking anti­ inflationary steps.

Sir, if the Premier of this Province was trying to c-onrtnce the nation or the lead.er of the nation of the ueed for taking anti-inflationary Rteps, why in the name of the Lord was he making inflationary settlements in his own Province,and of all provinces, Newfoundland ? , probably the province which is least able to make these inflationary settlements with the public service aud with the teachers? Sir, it just does not add up. I ask this Rouse, Sir, who is being irresponsible when these kind 1608

December 15, 1975 MR. ROWE: Tape 62R IB-1 of st'range activ:l.t:les are going on :In our Province? Sir, the expectations ~nd the ~spi.rations of our people have been risen far beyond the level that any povernment in th:l.s Province can ever reach. Sir., this is sa~ and cruel an~ I do not l<nm.; what words to use - I will only have to use unparliamentary wor~s - to describe the way I feel about any administrat:l.on, any leader who wou] d raise the aspirations of our people, Sir, knowin? full welJ that we v7ere heading into a current account defi ci.t.

Sir, it was not thi.s administration - let me put it another '1-•ay - it was that administration opposite, Sir, the P .G. administration, 1mo couhlec the debt of this Province in one term of office. They ask why ~·e are :l.n the mess we are in today? Some han. members have the b:!le or the galJ, or "~>.fiatever :It is, to describe :It, to get up and say ~~e are :!.n this ll'ess t01lay because of what they inherited from the previous acministration.

Sir, it took the previous administration twenty-three years of service in this Province to build the debt up as much as the hon. gentlemen opposite have done in one term, in three and a half to four years. So, Sir, it just does not wash down, it d.oes not go do"~>.'Il easily to hear char~es of irresponsibility and saying that - Yl'. S¥.~LHnnn: ~r. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman allow me? Ml'. F. !lOWE: I thin!< the hon. p:entleman, Sir, from TwiJJ.ingate (}fr. Smalh•ood) h11s asked the same question before. I kind of anticipate - Ml'.

Sl"ALI.HOOn: No. '!'he hon. gentleman speaks of a sort of equality in the amount acned to the public debt by the present administration and by the fo~er administration. noes he not realize that the former administrat:lon acdec a total in twenty-three years of $700 million to the debt ~vhere~s the present arlministration on exactly the same, compar:l .np lfves, not comparlng apples with oranges but comparing app] es ~rith apples, hRs ad(led $900 milllon, S200 million more? 1'1'. F. 'POVE: Yes, Sir, ~r.

Speaker, I realize the details and obviously as I,in fact.sort of anticipated the point that the han. membeT for Tw:lll:!.npate O•r. Smallwood) ~.;as about to make. If you want to r,et detailed about it you would express the figures as mentioned 1609

ner.emher 15 , 1975 lfR. ROJ-1£: tape 628 IB-2 hy t he member for "!'t.•i 11 tnrnte ("r . SmalJwoncl). But foT the sake o! simplicit y in compPrison I am simply s~ying that the hon . members opposite, the admini strat:l.on opposite in tet1'1s of debt position have simplv i\ch1eve<' - now this is the same crowd, Sir, hon. crowd that were screaning in 196~, in 1968, in 1967 ;mel 1966 that we were on t he ve rr.e of bankruptcy hecause of the borrowinP: policy.

Now, Si r, this SA~ hon . ~roup have doubled the debt , for the sake of comparison, have achieved that same level in one term that i t took the prev:l.ous administration twenty-three years to achieve. So, T am s~yin p. , Sir, now how come we clo not hear -well we hear now after the election,we hear half the truth. He hear the grave financial ~i tua tion we are i n.

But, Sir, in no way in this world can the adm1n:lstration orrosi te 1..-.easel out of the fault for this position by su g ~est :lnt that all of this :Is caused by what they inheriteC. from the previous Rdmiolstrl\t:lon nor because of the inflationa ry spiral nor bec ause of the price and war.e controls set forth by the fede ral rovernmen t, nor - well in part - by the Cull Island project. But ~·ho is to blame, ~ir, foT the situntion on the Gull Island project? Who i11 to blnme for thnt? 1610

December 15, 1975 Tape 629 PK - 1 Hr. F. Rowe: While we agree, Sir, in principle, with ownership of our hydro resources in this Province, while we agree in principle with that, if we knew the details of the debt that we are likely to assume in the development of that natural resource we would have very grave questions to ask concerning it. And, Sir, that is a debate for another time.~s I pointed out some years back ownership of a developed natural resource and ownership of an undeveloped natural resource are two entirely different things.

We have now ownership of an undeveloped natural resource in the Lower Churchill and of all the other rivers in Labrador and some rivers in the Island of this Province, and it is going to cost money to develop that. And, Sir, the government has not demonstrated their capability of raising the money,nor finding the markets, nor putting together the team to exploit these resources that we have on the mainland

section of our Province and on the Island portion of our Province. Now, Sir, the Premier referred to a remark supposedly and alle~edly ma~e by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). Sir, I would submit humbly, Sir, that the hon. Premier,if not intentio•ally, nonintentionally, but certainly was misrepresenting the words uttered by the Leader of the Official Opposition when he threw out the phrase, "borrow or bust".

Sir, that is not the policy of my colleagues on this side of the House,nor is it the policy of the Leader of the Opposition,nor did the Leader of the Opposition say "borrow or bust". To say that the Leader of the Opposition said that, Sir, was a misrepresentation of ~•hat he indeed said at the time . The Leader of the Opposition, Sir, simply said that the public service needs of this Province are indeed great and that this Province should borrow to the limit, borrow to the limit within reason, with reason and on a rational basis.

This foolishness, Sir, about borrow or bust, the Premier should just not be allowed to get away with that kind of an accusation. It was never intended on this side , it was never said, and it was never suggested. And we still say, Sir, that with the lack of rural and 1611

December 15, 1975 Tape 629 PK- 2 Mr. F. Rowe: industrial development in this Province anAl. with the great lack of certain services that many parts of Canada are used to,tbat this Province should e.ndeavour to borrow as 111Uch as it possibly can withou t jeopardizing the financial pos ition of this Province, and probably Sir, we are at that very position now. Maybe we are at that very position where we cannot afford to borrow any more. So in that respect bon. members opposite and on t his side of the House are not far out of step, but we just reject outrightly the suggestion by the Premier that our policy is borrow or bust . Nothing is further from the truth, Sir , and nothing is more 1612

December 15, 1975 Tape 630 PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: foolish than that suggested by the Premier. Sir, another thing that the Premier alluded to was that we made all kinds of promises during the election campaign and never mentioned raising taxes - never mentioned raising taxes. One thing that the hon. Premier, Sir, ~entioned was that we promised to pave all of the highways in the Province. That is not true, Mr. Speaker. That is simply not true. We promised to pave on a plan, a time plan­ what was the length of it? MR. ROBERTS: MR. F. ROWE: MR. ROBRRTS: Three years. Three or five years? Three years. MR. F.

ROWE: Okay I stand to be corrected on the time span. Three or five years-all the major roads in this Province. Now, Sir, there is a slight difference - there is a slight difference. Everybody considers the ; road to be a major road, well, Sir, look,the hon. members opposite realize that there are major roads in this Province, one major road is the Trans-Canada Highway. It is a major highway. Another major highway is the Burin Peninsula Highway. Another major highway, Sir, is the Great Northern Peninsula Highway, the Bonavista North, the Baie Verte Highway was another major - these are major highways.

We were not going around irresponsibly Sir, promising to pave every highway, byway low road and high road and side road and local road in this Province. As a matter of fact, Sir, it was rather the opposite with the machinery moving during that election, all the machinery in this Province was on the move during that election by members opposite, by the administration opposite. And we come to the school taxes - I went into that in some detail years gone by and I went into it the other evening, and there is no need to go into it in further detail.

We disagree with that method of taxation, we will continue to disagree with it,and if we get the opportunity we will abolish it. It is as simple as that. Now we did not mention taxes, Sir. Probably we did not mention 1613

December 15, 1975 Tape 630 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: taxes, Sir, for the same reason that it did not enter the minds of the people of this Province, because the picture had been painted by members opposite. There were no financial difficulties. We did not get answers to our questions during the consideration of the estimates. The hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Harshall) the other evening, Sir, turned around and•tried to blame the financial mess that the administration was in, tried to blame it on the official Opposition for not asking the right questions during the consideration of the estimates.

Well, Sir, how silly can one get, how childish can one get. We asked questions and re-asked questions and spent all too much time, Sir, on departments, on half of the departments during the consideration of the estimates and had to let the other half go through in a matter of minutes. Why was this, Sir? Because we were not getting the answers from hon. ministers opposite hut instead long-winded speeches during the consideration of the estimates. Check the records, check the verbatim reports, check Hansard, Mr. Speaker, and you will see, Mr.

Speaker, that we had to ask questions over and over and over again on the various votes in the estimates and we were not getting answers we were getting long-winded statements from ministers. MR. ROUSSEAU: You were one of the worst offenders with your set speeches. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, Sir, should be the very last minister to get into this one. Because the hon. minister when he was made Minister responsible for Recreation had to be saved, had to be rescued by the Premier one night, Sir, when he could not answer the questions put to him by members over here . at that time.

MR. ROUSSEAU: News to me! MR. F. ROWE: The hon. member can probably remember well. The Premier had to leave his seat, Sir, and go down and sit with the minister who was responsible for that department at the time. Now there may be reasons there, and I submit there were some very good 1614

December 15, 1975 Tape 630 PK- 3 Mr. F. Rowe: reasons why the minister was not in a position to answer the questions and we should not get into it. f!R. ROUSSFAU: There "as no good reason! MR. F. ROWE: No:' 1615

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 631 Page MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. ROWE: MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. ROWE: I say that without sarcasm, What is that? I say that without sarcasm. You say what? No good reason. Okay, well therefore I do not have to - HR. ROUSSEAU MR. ROWE: That will resolve it for you. So the minister is agreeing with me, Mr. Speaker, SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: Now, Sir, we have heard enough .clich~s coming from the Premier. We still have not had answers to our questions. TI1e Premier, Sir, very lightly dismisses our inquiry concerning the miscalculation in the equalization grant from Ottawa.

He very lightly dismisses it. MR. CROSBIE: Ho •. hum! MR. ROWE: And there goes the all-time yawner.of the century, mw Sir. He will go down in history as the hon. yawner. Well probably the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy would undertake to table any projections or any correspondence from the federal government with respect to the equalization grants that were supposedly coming to this Province lor this fiscal year. MR. CROSBIE:· : Do not be foolish. MR.

ROWE: Do not be foolish the hon. minister says, Sir, but it was a miscalculation, and it was given as one of the reasons why we find ourselves in the position we are in today. MR. MURPHY: You were not even listening to the Premier. MR.

ROWE: I was listening to the Premier, Sir, but I did not accept the explanation, Now I am asking the Minister of Mines and Energy whether, unless I missed - I admit that during part of the speech I was engaged in some conversation with the House Leader opposite, and I might have missed the point, but I did not hear the Premier say anything about tabling any correspondence or any projections made by the federal government with respect to the equalization grants. So, Sir, probably the Minister of l1ines and Energy, with his wit, Sir, may find it necessary,under 1616

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 631 Page 2 Mr. Rowe. the pressures,to table that documentation. Sir, we have reason to believe - well, we do not have reason to believe, we know that the government badly miscalculated it• The question is whether they did it knowingly or not. Sir, that is one question we would like to have answered. Sir, the Premier also reminds this Assembly, that certain projects have been deferred and not cancelled. Sir, that is not exactly astounding news. We know that projects have been deferred. We know· that water and sewerage projects have been deferred.

We know that recreational projects have been deferred. What we do not know, Sir, is when the financial position of this Province will be improved to the point where these projects can be, for the want of a better expression, re-instated '. Is it going to be coincidental with the year of the next election? We would like some indication from hon. gentlemen. We are not absolutely stupid. SOME HON. ~mMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: Well, Sir, look the hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy can roll his eyes, take off his glasses, yawn and grumble, but, Sir, these were the points, and if they think they are small points, I might remind the Minister of Mines and Energy that I am reacting to points made by his own leader, Sir. I happen to think that this was a pretty trivial point that the hon. Premier made in reminding us that these projects are deferred. We are not stunned altogether, Sir, over here. I do not know what we look like,but we are not stunned, stupid or anything else.

We realize that they have been cancelled but you can have cancellations for years and Churchill Falls, the Lower Churchill, Sir, deferred the Gull Island project for a minimum of one year. Is it to be two years, three years, five years or will we ever see it come to pass in our lifetime? 1617

December 15, 1975 Tape 632 PK - 1 MR. F. ROWE: Well, Sir, Mr. Speaker, we are going to be hanging on for a long time the way she is going at the present time. MR. CROSBIE: Our new senator,! think. MR. F. ROlo/E: It would not be a bad job, I must say, Mr. Speaker. It would not be bad. MR. CROSBIE: Your father approved of the budget. I spoke to him on the plane. MR. F. ROWE: Approved of the budget! Oh, now, Mr. Speaker, we are getting really low now. We are really getting low now when the hon. gentleman opposite decides to use the contents of a private conversation against the poor son of an old senator.

We are getting pretty low now, Sir. I must remind the hon. gentleman opposite, Sir, that I did have a little discussion with the Senator and I might find it necessary one of these days to make a few comments that the hon, Minister of Mines and Energy had said on that plane. MR. A. MURPHY: Why not get serious. MR. F. ROWE: Yes, now get serious. MR. A. MURPHY: Did the minister - MR. F. ROWE: It was a two-way conversation, Sir. AN RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. F.

ROWE: And I challenge the Minister of Mines and Energy, sinee he brought the subject up 1 to disclose the contents of the two- way conversation on that plane if he can see fit to leak out little bits of information here and there. I will drop the bottom out of the barrel on that one if he wishes me too. MR. CROSBIE: It makes no difference to me at all! MR. F. ROWE: No! MR. SMALLWOOD: Did I understand the minister to say that he expects to go to the senate? }1R. F. ROWE: fie rUc1 not! ------ MR. SMALLWOOD: The Minister of Mines? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, - 1618

December 15, 1975 Tape 632 PK- 2 MR. ROBERTS: Perhaps ~·e PHl h:we a provincial senate. MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, I close this part of the debate by simply saying that the Premier of this Province has not enlightened this Assembly whatsoever in the speech that he made today. Part of the speech, Sir, was nothing more than the equivalent of a Throne Speech. A catalogue of the few achievements that can be expected of any government administering this Province. That was the sum total of the Premier's speech, Sir, coupled with a vicious assault and attack on the Opposition for being allegedly irresponsible.

And, Sir, I maintain,and I think the people in this Assembly realize, certainly the people of this Province realize,that if there was ever any irresponsibility displayed by any group of people in this Province,it was displayed and the game was played during the first half of September 1975 when the aspirations and the hopes and expectations of our people were falsely raised, Sir, falsely raised and then we have the bombshell, bombshells dropped slowly but surely during the course of this emergency sitting of the House of Assembly. So, Sir, we will not entertain these charges made by the Premier.

The people of this Province will not entertain these charges. We know full well, Sir, that the administration has not levelled with the people of this Province during the really critical time. And, Sir, this is-democracy, you know, democracy,there is one little item essential in democracy that does not appear in other forms of government, and that is that the people decide who is going to rule the Province or the nation,and they do so by voting. It is not very astounding 1 I realize, but why do people vote the way they do, Sir?

People vote the way they do usually and hopefully because of the record of a government, 1619

December 15, 1975 Mr. Rowe. Tape no. 633 Page 1 - mw but mostly because of the success of a campaign, the success of the propaganda, the use of the television media, the radio media, the printed media and personalities. Too bad, Sir, that there is not a system whereby the people can evaluate the term of office, really evaluate the term of office of an administration instead of voting according to the way a campaign is conducted. But unfortunately, Sir, people, generally speaking, vote because of the way in which a campaign is conducted. Sir, this is the pitiful and the sorry part about this administration.

The campaign, Sir, is black in comparison to the whiteness - or if you want to reverse it,rather- the campaign was bright white compared to the blackness of the reality that we discover in this Assembly. Sir, that is the pitiful and the sorry part about the exercise of democracy that we have seen during the past election. Sir, the people were misled, they were misinformed. Sir, things were painted so rosy ~hat we even thought we could go on with a platform of reducing taxes, but such was not the case, Sir. SCME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, before I sit down, I would like to move an amendment to this particular motion, and it reads as follows: To amend the motion by striking MR. ROBERTS: It is out of order. I am sorry. It is my fault. It is out of order. I have forgotten something entirely. There can only be one amendment and one sub-amendment. It is my fault. MR. SMALLWOOD: There is only one amendment. MR. ROWE: There has been an amendment already.proposed. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. MR. ROWE: Okay, Mr. Speaker, obviously we - HR. ROBERTS: We will do it another time. MR.

ROWE: - we will do it another time, but in closing, Sir, - we can disregard that. I am sorry for the confusion, Mr. Speaker. In closing, Sir, I can only say that we are dismally disappointed that the 1620

December 15, 1975 Tape no. 633 Page 2- mw Mr. Rowe. government did not level with the people of this Province when it counts, and that is when the people have an opportunity to speak.

Sir, it would have been much better if the government could have come out with this news prior to the election.or in months and weeks prior to the election, and at least the people would know what is confronting this Province and the various political parties oi this Province would have known what was confronting this Province and probably we would have been in a better position to act together to try and solve some of these serious problems. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR. CROSB!E: Mr. Speaker, consistency, of course, is not the strong point of the hon. gentleman from Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr.

Rowe), He ended up on his usual inconsistent note. I prophesy Mr. Speaker, that we will not hear the han. gentleman opposite, who just finished speaking, criticize the federal government of Canada for one second,or for one instant, because they brought in an anti-inflation programme and wage and price controls in Canada when they campaigned just a year ago against that very topic.

That inconsistency or that change in policy or that change in circumstances he will justify, but if it happens on a provincial scene, of course, and politics being what they are, he will make this usual, tiresome charge against the government. You have to deal, Mr. Speaker, with circumstances as they arise, and the circumstances that you face at ' any one time. I am not going to spend much time rebutting the hon. gentleman, because he really has said nothing new that has not been said here quite frequently in the last two weeks, The inconsistency, of his position, of course, is this, Mr.

Speaker: He compl.ins that we had a larger current account deficit than we anticipated when the last budget was brought down,and that is true. When the last budget was brought down, we anticipated wage and salary increases of eighteen per cent, which turned out to be 1621

December 15, 1975 ~"'. (':'PrlSBIE: Tape 634 IB-1 much higher,and which had to be much higher because of the circumstances surrounclinR collective bargaining at that t:!me,and the circumstances that existe~~and what settlements were being given in other provinces ~nd the rest of it. One thing we can be assured of, ~r. Speaker, that had there been a strike or had there been no agreement in the wage and salary negotiations that went on in 1975, hon. gentlemen opposite would not have been supporting the government in their attempt to hold down these expenditures.

They would have been out shouting around the Province for greater increases to be offered,or saying that the bargaining techniques were wrong,that the government was too hard­ hearte~, that the government was trying to crush the poor hospital ~~orker, that the govern111ent was trying to crush the poor policeman, and all the rest that we have heard from them in the last four years whenever there was touch collective bargaining. But now he is going to complain because there is a current account deficit ~~hich is caused, for the most part, by wage and salary increases that ha~ to be a~~ar~ed in 1975.

The hon. gentleman talks about the equalization estimate which the Premier spoke to earlier this afternoon. There is no written ~ocument that sets out any equalization estimate that the fecleral government binds itself to for the coming financial year. The best the federal government can do is give you an estimate of what tbey think the equalization might be. It might or might not be what they say. The history of the past ten years in tax equalization is that usually tax equalization estimates are underestimated.

But this year, as a change, the tax equalization estimate was overestimat~d and there had to be adjustments for past years. As the Premier mentioned earlier this afternoon,several provinces,includ:lng Ontario,reduced the sales tax, reduced their sales tax. All of these things affected tax equalization formula,which is a very complex one 1 so that the tax equali?.ation we are likely to get for this year - and it is srill an estimate - is the one now set out in the new budget' that' wa:s brought dmm in November. 16Z2

December 15, 1975 ~IT' • CROSBIE : Tape 634 IB-2 lve still do not know if that is accurate, l'lr. Speaker. We do not knm,r if the tax equalization will be, we do not know for sure if :l.t w:llJ be what was presented in the budget given to the House in November. You will not know what it was exactly for months after the financial year ends. So the hon. gentleman should forget flogging the tax eQuRl:lzation estimate. There is nothing in that. It can be underestimate~. It can be overestimate~.

The one thing you can be sure of, it wilJ never be exactly what the federal government thinks it might he at the start of any year 1or what you think yourself it might he. So, there is nothing in that. But it so happens this year it is ~oing to be lower than their estimate and it is going to he lower that our estimate. The result of these two major things create~ this current account deficit. I am not going to go into it this afternoon, Mr. ~peaker, I have not got the time, but the debt of the Province has not been doubled in the last four years since we took over, the year ending Harch 31, 1972.

It has been considerably :Increased, there is no question about that. If hon. gentlemen opposite had had their way it would have increasecl,not what ft did increase,but by hundreds and httndre~s of m:lllions of dollars more because. Never once during the last four years did we ever hear them for one second suggest there shouJd be less spencin~ in the Province, not once. All we ever heard from them vras a cacophony of cries, bawls and roars for us to increase spending in every i~a~inable direction. If you spent $100 m:IJHon on roads,that was not enough.

If you spent $250 million on education,that was not enough,and the school boards were not getting enough,and !1emorial was not getting enough 1 and the trade schoo1s were not getting enough,a .nd the hospital boarC!s were not gettin~ enough. No one in the Province was getting enough,accor~ing to those bon. gentlemen opposite,in the last four years, and they now come in and say that we have been overspending. If we had spent what they recommended we spend, we would have a public debt now of about $4 billion, not '~hat it is. So it little behooves 1623

" e cemher 15, 1975 ' 'T" • r"n~ni E : Tape 1)34 them t .o chicle us or to wave the finger at the fact that the debt of the Province has :f.ncreased in the last f.our years. The debt of the I B-3 Province will increase in the next four also, ?-<r. Speaker, because :If :It does not increase we 'w:l.ll not have a capital account programme at al 1. We w.Hl have no expenditures on ro·ads. We will have no expenditttres on new facilities of any kind in the Province. So it has to increase in the next four years also.

The question is to keep the increase as low as possible and to spend it on the thing.s that are most i~ortant and vital to the future of the Province, The bon. gentleman talks about bJastinp; the dynamite in the Straits of Belle Isle. We c1id not know at that time, M.r. Speaker, that the project would have to be clelayed. He d:ld not expect that :It would be delayed and we did not have the increased cost estimates that came in after that. So, you know, there ~ras no cyniCal blasting of c1ynamite. Not only that.but our plans are ~o continue with the tunnel worl< next yea.r.

So if there was any blastin!!: of dynamite properly done during the J ast election, it was properly done on b.oth sides of the Straits of Belle Isle and there will be a lot 1624

December 15, 1975 Tape 635 PK - 1 Mr. Crosbie: more dynamite blasted up there in 1976 as we continue with the tunnel project. I am not going to address myself to anything elese the hon. gentleman said because it has all been said here before, and I want to address myself to several other things. But the hon. gentleman in straddling the hydro issue which will be debated later in the week - I just mentioned this because he did - said that the hon. gentleman opposite agreed in principle with our owning our own hydro resources.

They agree in principle with it, but when it gets to the details they want to disagree with it. Now they cannot agree and disagree, They accepted it and voted for it in this House. They say they accept it in principle, and there is no point trying to get on the bandwagon now when it looks that the project may be a little tough,or may take longer to carry out,and say they disagree with it. They are either in favour of this Province owning its own hydro resources , or they are in favour of some pr