Volume XL Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas No. 36 19 June 1985

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. EFFORD: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the han. member for P.ort de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, some two months ago I got elected to this han. House of Assembly to represent some 8,000 people in my district and to do it to the best of my ability. I had visions of coming to this House and sitting down in an office that was somewhat convenient to be able to carry on my work. Upon coming to this building I have come to find that I have to share the office with another member of my party.

In doing that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: Just a second now. The complaint has been lodged to this han. House on a number of occasions and it has been said that it is going to be looked into. Coming from the town of Port de Grave, it being somewhat of a fishing village, I am quite used to bailing water out of boats, but I was not expecting to have to do it when I came to this han. building. MR. J. CARTER: We wanted you to feel at home. MR. EFFORD: Well, I am glad you have that consideration in your mind. Every time it rains, Mr. Speaker, water is just streaming doWii around the light fixtures.

We have to put a number of buckets in the office to Ll832 June 19, 1985 Vol XL catch the water. The carpet is being continuously soaked. The smell is going right through the office. We have constituents coming in here and we cannot even sit down and carry on a private conversation. And when it is raining we have to leave our office completely. So I think it is a total disgrace to have to come in and work under these conditions • The han. member over there for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) thinks it is a joke. Well, when you pick up two buckets of water like this, Mr.

Speaker, and have to have this on your desk day after day, I think it is a total disgrace. SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is not allowed in the House. MR. EFFORD: If it is not allowed in the House, why should we have to do it in our private office? It should not be allowed in the building. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Table them! MR.EFFORD: So, Mr. Speaker, these are the conditions that elected MHAs have got to work under. I think it is totally disgraceful and I demand that something be done about it immediately. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to that point of privilege. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of privilege, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: It is getting to the point, Mr. No. 36 Rl832

Speaker, where it is becoming ridiculous. It is no longer something that is tolerable. Now, the Premier -(Mr. Peckford) stood up in this House, I think it was on opening day when I raised this matter of treatment of MHAs on both sides of the House and the fact that the facilities that are provided are not sufficient, are not adequate to permit MHAs to do their job, and made a commitment to do something about it. We were aware, Mr. Speaker, that there was a problem with the roof on that wing of the building and we gave time to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) and the go~ernment to do something about it.

There was supposed to be something done when the weather improved. Now, as far as I can see the Premier has no intention of living up to his commitment to improve facilities for MHAs. He has done nothing since we have been in here. I just got back, Mr . Speaker, from a visit to Nova Scotia where I had the opportunity of going in and taking a look at the Opposition offices there. Mr. Speaker, Nova Scotia is not a wealthy province, it is not a province that is much better off financially than this one, Mr. Speaker.

I can tell you it is shameful, it is degrading, it is an insult to our constituents to have to work in the conditions that we are working in down there now. It is not fit - MR. PATTER SON: Why did you go in Opposition? MR. BARRY: Now there is the mentality, Mr. Speaker! Now that is, Mr. Speaker, an indication of the incompetence of members opposite and their administration. Is this the level of competence we are going to have applied to offshore Ll833 June 19, 1985 Vol XL management? They cannot provide a set of offices, Mr. -Speaker, for member of this House of Assembly to let them do their job.

Or is it worse, Mr. Speaker? Is it a deliberate conspiracy to undermine, Mr. Speaker, the ability of the Opposition to do its job? Is there real purpose to undermine the image, Mr. Speaker, of the office of the Opposition so that when constituents come in they walk into a place and say, 1 Well, anybody who is prepared to work in conditions like this obviously cannot be doing a very good job for me if they cannot get a better office in which to carry on their work 1 ? Now we are fed up, Mr. Speaker, with these intolerable conditions.

It is a disgrace to the people of this Province and the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford), and not just that member because there are other MHAs as well who have to go through that. We insist, Mr. Speaker, and ask your protection to see that we get better working conditions than are now being provided. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: That is not, Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege. The way the hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Barry) is getting on with his histronics today he could well do with some cold water poured on him to cool his temper and his childish displays in this House. He talks about -the image of the Opposition. To hear him you would No. 36 Rl833

almost get the picture, Mr. Speaker, that we had some Tories up on the roof pouring water down on top of the Opposition. I mean, it is absolutely ludricious. There are leaks in the building that I am sure the Ministry of Public Works is looking into and doing the best they can with. First of all, the point of privilege is not a point of privilege, it has gone on for too long a period of time and it is without substance. You see, as I say, the immaturity of the Opposition the way the hon. Leader (Mr. Barry) is getting on. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR.

YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I feel the hon. member who brought that up does not know the difference between a point of privilege than a bowl of porridge. Mr. Speaker, I have no intention to drown the Opposition, I would like to bury them, but I have no intention of drowning them. Unfortunately, we are confined by a Public Tending Act. Last year the job was done by a tender where the contract was guaranteed. We are looking into the matter. I would say that within a week the contractors will be on the job. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) gets all fired up.

I have travelled through the ten provinces, and you must realize in Nova Scotia the Opposition offices are paid for by the Liberal party. MR. BARRY: No, Sir! Ll834 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. YOUNG: The Opposition offices there are paid for by the Liber~l party, Mr. Speaker, the Opposition now has more space provided by this government than they had when they had eighteen members under the leadership of Mr. Don Jamieson. I offered them space outside the building because of the leaks, but they would not accept it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Where? Where? MR. BARRY: Who did you offer it to? MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I offered the Opposition the offices occupied by our OWn members and they would not accept them. I did not deal with the Opposition, but my officials offered you space that was being occupied by members on our side and they would not accept it, it was not suitable. I said, 'If you do not want that, will you go outside the building and I will find space for you?' . You would not accept it, you wanted to be down there all alone. Mr. Speaker, until the roof is repaired that is all I can do, Sir. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

It is unfortunate the hon. member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) wants a spacious office. They have more space now than they had when Mr. Jamieson was there with his eighteen members, and that is all I can say. We have the Public Tender Act to deal with, we have the insurance people to deal with, and we spent $75,000 on that roof. Unfortunately, I have no control like the Leader of the Opposition would like to have No. 36 Rl834

over when it rains, I have no control over the wind and the snow, but I will do all I can to provide office space. The -Leader of the NDP party (Mr. Fenwick) wants office space, Mr. Speaker, but the only place I can find suitable to his demands is the Palace in London. That is all I can do, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the minister is correct that his officials suggested we just do a switch and we move into the offices occupied by the government members. Mr.

Speaker, I will tell you the condition of the lower part of those offices. They had a plastic sheeting used to collect the water and you had these gallons of water accumulating over your head in order to keep the rain out. In fact, we are occupying, Mr. Speaker, a portion of the space that was formerly occupied by government members. We moved through and we expanded and we put up a wall to block off, as Your Honour knows, the worst part of the roof. But we still went in there, Mr.

Speaker, in the reasonable expectation that there would be some work done on the roof and on the conuni tment, given by the Premier on the first day of the Session, that he would be looking into a situation whereby MHAs would not have to double bunk, something they are complaining about in penitentiaries. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is getting beyond the matter of just rain coming in as an inconvenience, it is getting to Ll835 June 19, 1985 Vol XL where safety is being threatened, Mr. Speaker, endangered.

The lights went out here in this building as a direct result of the water leaking into the electrical system down t~ere, and the fire alarm went off yesterday as a direct result of water leaking in to the electrical system down there. The member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) almost killed himself on the slippery floor because the amount of water accumulated on the floor there. And what does Public Works do about it? There is a hand printed sign, "Wet Floors", Mr. Speaker, on the door. A hand printed sign, "Wet Floors", is the extent of the competence, the ability of the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young).

Now the reason this is a matter of privilege is because, Mr. Speaker, the thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who voted for members on this side of the House want to have their representatives given the facilities to be able to represent them properly and adequately. And it is not, Mr. Speaker, for the personal comfort of MHAs we are raising this point, it is so that we can do the job that the people of this Province put us in here to do. MR. YOUNG: Fool! Fool! MR. BARRY: We ask, Mr. Speaker, for your protection and we ask for that minister to be tossed out. Mr.

Speaker, he has shown his incompetence on a regular basis, it is time for him to be flung out~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 36 Rl835

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I allowed that debate to go on for a long time because I appreciate that there are a lot of problems in hon. members' offices on both sides, but there is no prima facie case of privilege in this case. MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, my point of order arises out of an editorial in today's Evening Telegram, which was prompted by a question that I raised with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) a couple of days ago, and I only wish that the Minister of Fisheries were in his place as well, and the question related to UIC overpayments to fishermen. The editorial shows a misunderstanding of the issue and portrays fishermen as people wanting to twist and manipulate the UIC regulations, looking for special consideration, looking for handouts, Mr. Speaker, and it portrays fishermen in an unfavourable light. I will try to demonstrate that is not the situation.

If any hon. member in this Chamber, or any member in the press gallery, or any person in the gallery, found himself in this particular situation he would feel maligned and treated unfairly and unjustly, just as fishermen have. So let me clarify the situation, Mr. Speaker. I realize it is a complicated situation and I assume some of the responsibility myself, but it is imposed by the rules of the House and by hon. members Ll836 June 19, 1985 Vol XL opposite who do not like to hear members on this side getting into

preamble. Tt certainly points out the necessity for

preamble when we get into difficult situations in order to clarify for the press, and in this case it needed to be clarified for the minister, too, because I do not believe he understood the situation clearly. Now, Mr. Speaker, first of all let me just read some excerpts from the editorial. It says, nit is government policy that those who receive overpayments from the Unemployment · Insurance Commission must make repayment to the federal government.

This policy, according to Fisheries Minister Tom Rideout and Liberal Opposition member Tom Lush is causing hardship to fishermen, mainly on the Northeast and Southwest coast of the Province who, because of a computer error received overpayments last year and are currently having those overpayments deducted from their UIC cheques. Many of those same fishermen were granted special allowances recently because they could not get to the fishing grounds. Rideout says government has made representation to the federal government to write off those overpayments.

It was not the fishermen's fault, says the minister, therefore they should not be penalized. " And the editorial says, nwe don't agree. Fishermen should be treated no differently than others." And I agree with that too, Mr. Speaker. "We have no record of government making representation to Ottawa for UI recipients from other professions who have received overpayments." MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I ask the hon. member to state his No. 36 Rl836

point and not to continue reading the newspaper. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have to get to the editorial so that hen. members will know what the situation is. It would appear that the editorial writer believes that the overpayment was made by the UIC. As happens with Social Services now and again, a mistake will be made and there is an overpayment. It might be $20 or $100 and that person is expected to pay it back. In the case of UIC, if there is a mistake made then the person will have to pay it back. But, Mr. Speaker, this was not t~e situation.

In this situation it was a mistake made by the employer in determining insurable weeks. Now ·, Mr. Speaker, if any hen. gentleman is working for an employer, when he is laid off and receives separation papers which show that he has worked for twenty weeks, he just sends that off to UIC and it is hopeful that he will get his UIC. Now if I could use an analogy, if the separation sheet of a person in the workforce had shown that they had - MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I would again ask the hen. member if he would state his point because he is not getting to the point and I would like to hear it. MR.

LUSH: This is the point, Mr. Speaker. I am making the point of order in the way that fishermen are awarded their insurable weeks is a complicated process and if this is not shown them fishermen are maligned, Mr. Speaker. It is not a matter of a simple overpayment by UIC, it is a matter of the employer making a mistake in Ll837 June 19, 1985 Vol XL determining the insurable weeks. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the important point.

What we are finding _out is that six months after the UIC people decided to do a spot-check on fishermen they found out that this fisherman did not have enough insurable weeks but had received $4,000 or $5,000 in UIC payments. The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that · this was not a simple error by the UIC people, it was an error by the employer which eliminated the qualifying for UIC by the fishermen, which is altogether different from a UIC overpayment~ the fishermen did not qualify. Mr. Speaker, I want to make that point so that fishermen are not seen to be people who try to manipulate the rules.

It was a mistake made by employers and fishermen had no way of knowing. MR. SPEAKER (McNic holas): I rule there is no point of order. I would like at this time to take the opportunity of welcoming some old friends of mine from the City of St. John's, His Worship, the Mayor, the Deputy Mayor, and the Councillors. SOME RON. ME MB ER S: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: It has come up a couple of times, Your Honour, and maybe it is a matter that we do not want to sit on our rights here.

While it is not covered in the Standing Orders, at times because of the complexity of a matter it takes a No. 36 Rl837

r little longer than normal, but it has been a long-standing tradition of this House for a member to stand up on a point of order, as an opportunity to clarify remarks which have been taken out of context in the course of a previous debate which the media may not have picked up correctly.

It is not the normal situation of where a member is going on, and we all know it is not a point of order, it is a point of information, although there is no such thing in the Standing Orders, but I would ask that we have the opportunity within reasonable limits of the Chair, as Your Honour did today, and we thank Your Honour for that, but we do not want to ease away from this notion that because it is not a point of order we lose the opportunity of doing this. I think it is a very worthwhile thing, and maybe the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) would care to say something on it. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : We have no quarrel with that. It has been an accepted parliamentary practice for a member to get up and correct statements which are made in the press, or correct statements that are made next day, and to give his or her version of the incorrectness of the report of the paper concerned. And that, in effect, is what Your Honour did. Your Honour said 'there was no point of order and that is sometimes followed by the Speaker saying, 'But the member has taken the opportunity to make a certain point,' and that is valid.

The Ll838 June 19, 1985 Vol XL only thing I would point out, though, and I do not think the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) was questioning Your Honour's ruling, the point of the matter is that Your Honour has to have the direction of the Chamber so that he can direct members to co~e to their points, otherwise, all you are going to do is get a long debate and a. regurgitation of the point itself. Statements by Ministers MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.

SIMMS: At the request and at the insistence of members opposite, the Forestry critic in particular, and because there have been suggestions by members, as evidenced by a

preamble in Private Member's Motion No. 18, the government's record of implementing the recommendations of the Newfoundland and Labrador Royal Commission on Forest Protection and Management is not a good one, I want to provide this House with a brief status report. We are all aware, Mr. Speaker, that the Province's wood supply has been affected by large scale insect infestation and various competing land uses. As a result, we will continue to make substantial Silvicultural investments to avoid long term wood shortages. However, our latest wood supply-demand analysis, prepared for our twenty-year forest management plan, has determined that in the No. 36 Rl838

short-term, to the end of this century, there will be an adequate wood supply in this Province. While the domestic use of wood as a primary source of home heating has · increased in the last five to ten years in response to rising prices of alternative energy sources, particularly fossil fuels, the overall demand for wood Island wide has already peaked and has in fact --decreased recently. For example, our departmental records show that the number of domestic cutting permits peaked at 32,510 in 1982 - 1983. This number declined to 28,849 in 1983 - 1984 and is expected to decline a little further this year.

This trend indicates that the demand for fuel wood has stabilized and should not increase in the short-term. And, of course, the demand for industrial wood will be restored in the long run with modernization of the Corner Brook and Grand Falls mills. The department is acting rapidly, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that we do not have wood supply shortfalls in the longer term. We are doing this be implementing nearly all of the recommendations contained in the 1981 report of the Royal Commission on Forest Protection and Management.

The allegation that government's record of implementing those recommendations is a poor one does not have any basis. On the contrary, as I have already stated, most of the recommendations have been fully implemented. Furthermore, the few remaining recommendations are presently being implemented. I am tabling, in conjunction with this statement, a detailed report that addresses each and every one of those recommendations. Ll839 June 19, 1985 Vol XL There were thirteen recommendations, Mr. Speaker, in the first part of the Royal Commission's report which mainly dealt with forest protection. All of these, Mr.

Speaker, have been implemented. Consequently, the spruce budworm is under control. There were thirteen in the first part and every single recommendation has been implemented.The same action has been useful in combating the new infestation, by the way, of the hemlock looper. The second part, Mr. Speaker, dealing with forest management had twenty-se;ven Twenty-five recommendations. of these recommendations have been implemented. One was tried, number seven, and abandoned for reasons outlined in my report. And another, number twenty-seven, has been partially implemented. I have to point out, Mr.

Speaker, of course, for everybody's benefit that a tree takes from forty to seventy years to grow and, therefore, some of the technical recommendations require the applicable years before they are fully implemented. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this is a an excellent record. Mr. Speaker, as members examine this report, it will become quite obvious that the Province has taken those recommendations of the 1981 Royal Commission very seriously and has made every effort possible to implement the recommendations and to overcome possible future wood shortages.

The Province, along with the pulp and paper industry, labour, sawrnillers and the Government of Canada, have mounted a concerted intensive effort. As No. 36 forest this management effort gains Rl839

momentum, projected wood shortages will be replaced by surpluses and this major industry, Mr. Speak~r, will continue to grow and prosper. Long term meaningful employment in the woods and in the mills will be protected and ensured. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the government's policy on integrated resource management involving an adequate silviculture programme, proper utilization of the forest resource and protection against fires and insects is a positive and proper policy, and deserves the support of all members of this House. Mr.

Speaker, before I conclude, I would like to take the opportunity, if I may, to extend a vote of appreciation to the dedicated and competent employees of the Newfoundland Forest Service who have worked so hard to make the government policy of integrated, intensive forest management a success. We can proudly claim our place in modern forestry. We have a great thing going - a massive reforestation and forest improvement programme~ we have developed an excellent fire fighting capacity~ and we have taken a stand against forest losses from insects.

Our forest management plan is advancing at a tremendous pace with a computerized forest management information system. For the Newfoundland's first time history, in Mr. Speaker, we have our own timber grading agency and a viable sawrnillers' organization, and, for the first time since the original establishment of a pulp and paper industry in this Province, a Ll840 June 19, 1985 Vol XL massive modernization programme is being undertaken at both Corner Brook and Grand Falls, while the Stephenville mill is operating at capacity and producing excellent quality newsprint. Mr.

Speaker, I believe all of these efforts represent a significant achievement, and we will continue to intensify our forest management policies in the future to ensure the long-tern viability of this very important natural resource. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the member for Burge a - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to see the minister report back to the House on the recommendations of the 1981 Royal Commission on Forest Management and Protection. four years seems a little long to be waiting for it, but we are glad that unlike so many Royal Commissions that have been set up by members opposite, we are getting a report. Now, the minister says that they have a silviculture and forest management programme in place. How effective is it? What has been done to utilize the dead and dying timber? Has mature timber, identified as surplus to local industry, been made available for export?

What has been done about the waste wood that is left around by the paper companies? Can something be done to extend the work term of the loggers? Our loggers in Newfoundland are a very No. 36 Rl840

professional group of people, and every year they seem to have a shorter work term. Is there some reason why you cannot utilize them in cleaning up ·the mess that is left by the paper companies? We, on this side of the House, believe that the first aim of your department is to provide a supply of wood for the paper companies, and we must take all means at our disposal to protect these ~rees. If this involves spraying, then we must use the safest possible effective spray. We must thoroughly investigate the effects of what we are doing.

We must greatly enlarge our silviculture . programme and investigate methods of silviculture that will be safe and effective, will create jobs, and will ensure an adequate wood supply in the future. One of the main concerns of the Royal Commission is the possible shortage of wood for industry by the late 1990s or early 2000s. Now, the minister says that he has solved this problem of the shortage of wood referred to in the Commission report, so I would like for him to table the statistics to back up this.

At the Committee meetings, when I asked you this question, you could not ensure for me that you did have it under control, you thought you did. So now if you have an adequate supply of wood for the paper companies for the next twenty-five years, you no doubt will show us the statistics on it. The minister is Brook tomorrow conference. MR. WARREN: How do you know? going for Ll841 June 19, 1985 to Corner a forestry Vol XL MR. GILBERT: I read his statements. I am a little busy so unless you are going to announce something of substance I will not go. MR. SIMMS: Very important. MR.

GILBERT: Will he be announcing tomorrow the new forestry .center which was promised to Newfoundland by the previous Liberal government, which was deferred by the current government because they were unable to come up with the $3. 5 millions to start a forestry center in Corner Brqok? The federal minister was able to come up with $35 million for one for his own district. MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER {McNic holas): A point of Minister of Lands. order, Forest the hon. Resources the and MR.

SIMMS: Obviously the hon. gentleman is talking about a subject that has nothing to do with this statement and he should be ruled out of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. member has just about a half a minute left to conclude his remarks. MR. GILBERT: The federal minister was able to come up with $35 million for a forestry center for his riding in New Brunswick and the Prime Minister just announced a $60 million for a medium security prison for his riding. No. 36 Rl841

MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Sit down. MR. SIMMS: I will not sit down. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) can get up and flail and wail and do everything else if he wishes, so I can I. The member is talking about something that is not contained in the statement, Mr. Speaker, and I submit to you that that is entirely out of order. If he wants to raise that some other time, let him do so. But his comments must stick to the statement. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, all hon. members who reply to a ministerial statement should confine their remarks to the particular statement.

I would like to say to the hon. member his time has elapsed. MR. GILBERT: To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I say will the minister go to Ottawa and request - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member has now spoken for half the length of time that the hon. minister had. MR. GILBERT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Ll842 June 19, 1985 Vol XL It seems to me that it is virtually impossible for the minister to operate a forestry programme if he has the federal forestry - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If the hen. member has a point of order I would entertain that. There is no point of order. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. ·the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, since we are discussing the whole question of forestry in that context it might be a good time for me to inform the House that there has been an agreement in principle reached, . a tentative agreement, between b"!-rgaining committees representing Loggers Local 2564 and Abitibi-Price on a collective agreement which I understand would span a period of four years.

I will not make any details of the agreement known, no details will be made known by either of the parties. I understand that it will be sometime in July before the loggers will be voting on that agreement, so consequently I simply want to say that the Logger's Local is going to go back, I understand, and recommend acceptance of the agreement reached in principle at the bargaining table. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. No. 36 Rl842

MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I do not have a prepared statement to ~ake. _ I' have been informed by Baie Verte Mines that the mill will be closed from July 6 to September 3 inclusive. Mr. Speaker, in the short-term mining plan when financing was put in place about February the original plan was that the milling operations at Baie Verte would be closed in April and May for four weeks, and in August for four weeks. But the mine only closed for two weeks in that period of time, April and May.

The mine anticipated getting some optional tonnage from India which did not materialize. So they will be announcing today at 3:15 to their staff, 3:30 to the union, that the mill will be closed from July 6 to September 3 inclusive. They will be mining the West pit to prepare for when they reopen in September. Also, Mr. Speaker, they have presented to government a long-term mining plan which government is now assessing and will hopefully have decisions made on that long-term mining plan for Baie Verte by the time they are ready to reactivate in September. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of concern to all of us to see events like that happen. It is unfortunate that they were not able to firm up additional markets which would see the mill going. A Ll843 June 19, 1985 Vol XL part of the problem has been, as I understand, a large amount of overburden which at some point in time has to be removed to permit better access to the ore. We look forward to seeing an improved long-term mining plan established.

We hope that the minister would have that plan made available to the House or, if not the House, then when it does come out we would like to get information on it so that we can assess the extent to which there is a long-term, proper mining plan in place that will ensure long-term jobs to the . people of Baie Verte, which is what we all want. Oral Questions MR. K. AYL WARD : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicho las): The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question goes to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews).

The Youth Services Division has a mandate to promote, encourage, and establish services and activities for youth across the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The extension service of eleven field officers is responsible for the delivering of the division's programmes and services to the respective regions. Considering that this is the International Year of Youth, and that there is an unemployment rate of 40 per cent amongst youth, does the minister feel the transfer of four of only eleven field workers now No. 36 Rl843

in existence from the Youth Services Division is going to benefit the youth of this Province and the Youth Services Division in your department? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Recreation and Youth. Culture, MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon gentleman for his question. Of course, just as a point of clarification and information for the hon. member, there has been a request into the department now for a considerable amount of time from the recreation fraternity of the Province to have some full-time field staff.

Of course, what we have had over the past number of years is field staff out around the Province who have been servicing both youth and recreation, so there has been an overlap in certain areas of the Province whereby they have been trying to service both. What we have done is we have now designated a number of our staff to service the recreation needs of the various areas of the Province, but the thing is now those who are left are. answering to the Youth Services Division and they will be dealing strictly with youth. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville, a supplementary. MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What is the minister's response to the statement by the Chairman of the Youth Advisory Council, which you Ll844 June 19, 1985 Vol XL have set up and works within the department, that what they said was needed was an increase or an expansion of workers and services instead of a cutback of one-third? What is your response to that statement made by the Youth Advisory Council which speaks out on issues of importance for youth and has great concerns about that?

What is your response to that, that you are cutting back in this International Year of Youth instead of expanding the services which are definitely required right now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Recreation and Youth. Culture, MR. MATTHEWS: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that we would like to have an increase in our numbers on staff for all divisions of the department. We have six divisions, and particularly in the area of Community Recreation and Sport and Fitness ·Division and the Youth Services Division we would love to have more staff.

After a very careful assessment of analysis both the and Youth Services Division and the other respective divisions that I have mentioned, after very careful analysis and weighing the odds and talking to the personnel of the Youth Services Division, we have decided that we would transfer some of these people to Recreation full time, but at the same, time of course, what we are doing is making the people who are left now full time with Youth. They are not sharing responsibilities between Recreation and Youth and we feel that by doing so they will be more effective in servicing the youth of the Province. MR. K.

AYLWARD: No. 36 Rl844

A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: The question is has the :rilinister responded to the letter of protest that has been sent by the Youth Advisory Council Chairman to the Premier and to himself? Could you tell us what their response is going to be? Are you going to take any action? You do not have enough money but, I mean, are you going .to fight for more money or are you going to do something along those lines to get something going about it? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr.

Speaker, the thing is on the matter of fighting for more money, the budget allocations have been made for this year for my department. We have gone through the estimate process so the dollars that have been allocated are there and I guess we will have to live within the guidelines of the budget set for this year, fully recognizing of course the need for additional Youth specialists throughout the Province and the need for additional Recreation and Sports specialists. But it comes down to a fine point, Mr.

Speaker, that we have tried to utilize the staff available to the department and respective divisions to the best possible service of the people of the Province. We are trying to do that and that is why we carefully weighed the situation before we made any decisions.

We had a committee struck in the Department to look at the total picture and, Ll845 June 19, 1985 Vol XL based on their recornmendations, which were fully assessed, we made the decision and we .feel, even though I appreciate the concerns raised by the Youth Advisory Council, that in the long run, under present conditions it will be best for both the Youth Services Division and for the Community Recreation Sport Division. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the hen. the member for Stephenville~ MR. K.

AYLWARD: Thank you, have been citizens de-indexing government, on youth concerned. closing the Mr. Speaker. There cutbacks with senior with the pension by the federal and this is a cutback as far as I am Are you going to be four offices where the few workers are? transferring them? to be done with them? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: . Are you What is going The hen. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker, there will not be a close-out of any offices. What we have done really is redefine the responsibilities of the respective people concerned.

Two or three of the individuals concerned will still be sharing responsibilities between Recreation and the Youth Services Division. What we have done for the first time in the Province is we now have five full-time recreation field workers and by doing that we have No. 36 Rl845

eliminated some recreation responsibilities from the other people who have been sharing Youth and Recreation, and now they will become youth field workers in the Province. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I minister can tell wonder if the the House what criteria is used, for example, in the hiring of students for parks under his jurisdiction? People living in the area in which the park is situated, do they get any priority? Will he give an undertaking that political patronage is not coming into play in making such appointments?

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, with regard to positions in the provincial parks, each year, first of all, if any of the parks require students, if there were students there in previous years who wish to return, they are given the option to return to that respective park. MR. W. CARTER: We know that. MR. MATTHEWS : You know that, do you? MR. W. CARTER: Yes. Ll846 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. MATTHEWS : Very good! At least the hon. member knows something, Mr. Speaker. I was a bit worried about that.

The other point is, of course, that there are applications made to our Parks Division from thousands of students around the Province and we try to go through a process whereby we do try to accommodate people, wherever possible, from the areas. Of course, we also keep in mind that there are people who are better qualified to do a respective job and we try to take that into consideration when possible. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister, th .en, can explain to th~ House how it is that a labourer's job which was vacant in a park in my district, on New World Island, was filled by a constituent of the member for Lewisporte (Mr. Russell) on his recommendation? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh! Oh! MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr.

Speaker, all I say to that is, as I said before, we hire for all our positions through a process whereby we try to put people into positions who, as far as we can determine, are capable of doing No. 36 Rl846

the job. I guess, Mr. Speaker, we have literally hundreds of representations made to the department, to the Parks Division, to myself as minister, and to the various ADMs of the Department. There are representations made on behalf of constituents all over the Province and, of course, sometimes these representations quite naturally are taken into consideration. I guess, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member does not have the initiative, whatever, to make representation on behalf of his constituents, well, that is not my fault. Because, I guess if such was the case, if the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr.

Russell) , if there is someone put in there from his district - I am really not sure that there was to be honest with you, and I am not sure if it is based upon the hon. member's representation - but if there was someone hired and it was based on the hon. member's representation on his constituent's behalf, then I would like to salute him as a member because I believe he is doing his job. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hon. for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: member Mr.

Speaker, that has got to be the most ridiculous statement ever made by a member of this House when the minister would use his influence in a case of hiring a student for a part-time job in another district. Will the minister then tell the House, Mr. Speaker, for example, if interviews were conducted or did they just accept the pork-barrelling, patronage Ll847 June 19, 1985 Vol XL recommendation of the member for Lewis porte? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of · Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr.

Speaker, for a point of clarification to put the record straight, I did not say that there was anyone hired from the district of Lewisporte because the hon. member used his influence to have him hired. What I said was if such was the case, if the hon. member did ' make representation to the department or to the Parks Division on the constituent's behalf, if he did that and consequently someone got employed, then I would say that the hon. member was doing his job, and I still contend that. The situation is, Mr. Speaker, as I said, we always try to accommodate students from the local area. MR.

LUSH: Have a brain, boy. practicing nineteenth patronage. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): You are century Order, please! Order, please! MR. MATTHEWS: I would like if I could try and respond to the because if I do not please to questions then, of course, the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) will be accusing me of not answering the questions. MR. LUSH: You are not. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MATTHEWS: I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if he No. 36 Rl847

is not waiting now to vault back to his position at MacDonald Drive, the House is getting too much for him again. Mr. Speaker, we try to deal as fairly as we can with the positions in our provincial parks. With regards to .the point that has been made by the han. member, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that fairness has been practiced in engaging the student that he so refers to. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the han. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: I wonder will the minister, Mr.

Speaker, explain to the House why it is, for example, that recommendations made by the school in the riding, by the principal and other senior teachers for that vacancy, were ignored and the recommendations of his buddy, his colleague here, were accepted in foisting into that job, Mr. Speaker, in my district, on a political patronage basis, a student from his district? MR. RUSSELL : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point Minister of of order, Consumer Communications. MR. RUSSELL : the Affairs han. and I take some exception to the comments made by the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. w.

Carter) alleging that I had used my influence to have a student - MR. W. CARTER: You admitted it to a teacher down there. Ll848 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. RUSSELL: I admitted nothing, Mr. Speaker, to anybody. About making representation to any minister in this government for jobs for people in my district, I do not need to apologize to anybody for doing that. I was elected to help the constituents of my district a·nd one of the priori ties is to help them find jobs. If I have done that, then I am very proud of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, J;lear! MR. BARRY: To that point of Speaker. order, MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Mr. To that paint of order, the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: That is a nice little red herring that is continuously being tossed out by members opposite whenever we raise the matter of patronage. Now, Mr. Speaker, if it is merely a matter of representation being made from all members of this House, and if it is a matter of interviews being conducted by objective, impartial individuals and a decision made with respect to -the competence of individuals based upon all representation received, that is one thing, Mr. Speaker.

There is nothing wrong with any MBA making that type of representation and that type of process. But, Mr. Speaker, if, as we see more and more as we go through the Housing Department for which the minister responsible directs students to his departmental officials to hire, as we go around to the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Simms) and the Wooddale Nursery, and now the member for Lewisporte (Mr. No. 36 Rl848

Russell), more and more we are seeing the sickness coming back of members opposite going to their colleagues in Cabinet and, without interviews, without any evaluation of individuals on the basis of competence, we see people getting jobs on the basis of patronage, Mr. Speaker, that is not proper and that is what the minister must respond to. He must tell us whether there were interviews carried out for that position and whether the decision was made on the basis of competence, Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR.

YOUNG: I have heard a lot of discussion going on about patronage and all that. But I ask the member for Twillingate (Mr. w. Carter) - MR. CALLAN: A nice gentleman. MR. YOUNG: Yes, a nice gentleman talking, and a nice gentlemen interrupting. I would ask the hen. member for Twillingate if he would like to table the qualifications you had to have to get a boat when he was running for the leadership for the PC Party two years ago? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . YOUNG: I can name them, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please!

Ll849 June 19, 1985 Vol XL To that point of order, the hen. minister took the opportunity of explaining his position in that matter. There was no point of order. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker, I have permission, I guess, to respond to the last point that was made by the hen. member for Twillingate . (Mr. w.carter).

When he asked about representation being made by the principal of a particular school or teachers, I would just like to advise him that I am not aware of any representation made on any student's behalf in this Province. I have to be very honest about that. I do have six divisions in the department and there are Summer jobs attached to just about all divisions. There are seventy-seven provincial parks and for me to know on a park basis from what districts student come or what their qualifications are I think is asking a bit much.

I do not know of any representation made by a school principal or teachers on behalf of any constituent of the han. member. Now it is possible that it may have gone to the Parks Division and I would not know about it. The other point is, Mr. Speaker, the old saying that, "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones," because we all know about the $1 dollar boats when the han. member was Minister of Fisheries. I would just like to tell the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) that he should not forget that he was a minister of government and I can tell him a No. 36 Rl849

few things about when he was the minister responsible for the Marystown Shipyard, that he should bite his tongue a few times about. I, can tell him about patronage if he wants to know about it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, privilege. on a ma .tter of MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I challenge the m~mber opposite who is imputing improper conduct, I challenge that member to follow through with that slimy accusation or withdraw it. Now I challenge the member to do that, either follow through or withdraw that slimy accusation. Mr. Speaker, if it is not true, and if, Mr.

Speaker, this is the way members opposite are going to conduct the business of government, then we know what we will do for the thousands of individuals who come to the fifth floor seeking our help when they have exhausted everything else, they will be moving, Mr. Speaker, to the eight floor and to wherever they can find the ministers. Let us see the ministers explain to those 60,000 unemployment men and women how it is that they cannot get jobs but friends of the hon. members can.

Not to forget, I would ask that the very, very sadly weak minister follow through like an hon. individual, with his slimy accusation, either lay it on the Table of this House or withdraw that accusation and do it now. MR. MATTHEWS : To that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. Ll850 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of privilege, the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: I think we see another case here in the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, where the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) is quite free to give but he just cannot take.

He is showing his boyish behavior again in this House, Mr. Speaker. He thinks he can make allegations against other people and not receive any back •. All I say to the hon. member is that I know of cases where he was confronted whe~ he was minister. I did not accuse him of political patronage first, he accused me. So I just want to remind him that he was a minister and there were things that he did that certainly, as of today, could be questioned as being blatant political patronage. So he should not forget that. In the same way, Mr.

Speaker, as he should not forget that he had three or four offices in government when he was a minister and now he is crying about office space. MR. TULK: To that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if ever I saw it that is the coward's way out by a weak minister who is unable to defend his own actions and is trying to cast slime on the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) • As a matter of fact, when the question was put the member pointed across this House to me and said, 'You know I can.' Who is he threatening?

Who does he think he No. 36 Rl850

is threatening? Who does he think is afraid of him on this side of the House? It is a slimy statement. The minister should now have the gumption to stand on his feet and name names. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, he should be ordered to withdraw by Your Honour. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of privilege, the hen. the President of the Council. · MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, first of all that is no point of privilege. It is obvious, as the minister says, that they can hurl stones but they cannot take the few darts back. The fact of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, is this whole portion of Question Period is on a mistaken premise anyway because it assumes that jobs in Newfoundland are only for people within a district. Jobs, in my understanding, for the people of Newfoundland are for all Newfoundlanders wherever they come. The point is there is no point of privilege at all. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

To that point of privilege, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition took the opportunity of explaining his point of view as against the comments that the hen. minister made and made some further comments, but there is no actual prima facie case that I can determine. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hen. the Ll851 June 19, 1985 Vol XL Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: I would submit, Mr.- Speaker, that under the Standing Orders of this House it is against the rules for a member to stand up and impugn motives or make accusations of improper and potentially illegal activity, which is what the minister is doing. Now we all know, Mr. Speaker, that the minister has had a few sad, sad days. He has not performed all that well. We know, Mr. Spe~ker, he will resort to anything to try and get off the hook of a pointed question from now on. Well, Mr. Speaker, he should not be permitted to do so.

If he is an honourable man, he will get up and substantiate any charges that he makes against any member of this House. MR. TULK: Right on! MR. BARRY: We stand here ready, willing, and able, if we raise a matter, to substantiate what we raise. If we cannot substantiate it, we will not raise it. I would ask the minister to do the same. I would ask the minister to substantiate the unfounded and untrue allegations that he has made or, like an honourable man, withdraw them? If the minister does not withdraw, let him be labelled no longer honourable, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): To the point of order, the hen. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Your Leader No. 36 Honour ruled against of the Opposition's the (Mr. Rl851

Barry) premise on a point of privilege, so he gets up on a point of order. The bon. gentleman is upset and, if he takes exception to wha~ the minister has said, surely the minister can take exception to what the gentleman on the other side of the House has said. Now really, Mr. Speaker, all you have are assertions of opinion being made. It is not a matter of assertions of fact, but of opinion or impressions or what have you. Just because somebody takes objection- to something that is said does not ground the matter of privilege. Mr.

Speaker, if we objected to everything that the other side said we would be on our feet all day long. I mean, it is ridiculous. This is a form of debate. You cannot ground a point of privilege or a point of order because you object what somebody has said. Neither, Mr. Speaker, is it appropriate to bring up on a point of order something that Your Honour has already ruled on under a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): In this case I rule there is no point of order. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I have a question to the minister now.

I would like to ask the minister is he prepared and will he undertake to this House that he will investigate the matter that was raised by the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter)? Will he investigate this matter and will he determine the basis upon Ll852 June 19, 1985 Vol XL which the individual was hired, and will he report back to the House whether there were interviews carried out, whether other individuals were interviewed for the job? And what was the reason for the hiring of this particular individual? MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, the thing is, as I will reiterate for the bon. Lea4er of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) again, that most of these positions in the Provincial Parks are dealt with by the Parks Division of the department. The thing is the position is filled in the respective parks. All of the parks of the Province are filled. There is someone working there. All I will say to the bon. member is that I will look to see if there was representation made as was suggested by the bon. member for Twillingate. And I will let the House know if there was representation made on their behalf.

I mean, the thing is there is someone working there in the park now, obviously, as the bon. member has informed me. The most I could do would be to verify that there is someone working there. I mean, the position is filled. There is. not much I can do about that. MR. YOUNG: Five hundred applied for the job. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Leader of the No. 36 Rl852

Opposition. MR. BARRY: I think an answer like that is useless. The minister can find out the basis on which .that hiring was done. The minister can find out the basis on which that individual was hired and the minister, if he is not prepared to do that, is finished, and he will never make it as a minister in that department. I would like Mr. Speaker, would like to Transportation to just follow up, on this topic. I ask the Minister of (Mr.

Dawe) has he made enquiries following our earlier question with respect to the hiring of a labourer by his department for the Bay L'Argent depot without having that job posted beforehand, the person, by the way, hired having been a campaign worker for the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin)? Has the minister checked that out yet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I was not in the House when that question was raised. However, I heard it was raised.

But I did not think at that time, nor do I think now it is worth investigating beyond the point that those positions were filled in a normal manner. Whether the individual worked on a political campaign, as long as he was not a civil servant at the time, that was his free choice to work on anyone's campaign . if he chose to do so. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Ll853 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister is he stating he is not prepared to investigate whether or not that job was posted so that other individuals within the service initially, could apply and have an opportunity for employment? Is the minister saying he will not investigate to determine whether the proper procedures were followed for hiring in that situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, there is a collective bargaining process in place, a collective agreement, and everything that was done in that case is certainly applicable to that particular agreement for hiring. If in fact there is a specific problem that goes outside the collective agreement, there is a process in place in the collective · bargaining agreement to address that particular problem if it is seen as one. The information that I have is that everything was done in accordance with the collective bargaining process and there is no reason to follow it any further. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the There is a very clear difference, Mr. Speaker, between the collective bargaining process and the process which is set down for hiring individuals. The member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) tried to slip off the question on the No. 36 Rl853

Wooddale Nursery with that response, "Oh, it was within the collective bargaining process. " I am not ready to concede it was in either case. But whether or not it was within the collective bargaining process is irrelevant. I ask the minister, will he check and report back to this House as to whether that job was posted? As a matter of departmental policy it is supposed to be posted. Was that job posted before that individual was hired, and if not why not? Was it because there was a wish to employ political patronage? It is silly for the minister, Mr.

Speaker, to suggest that the collective b~rgaining process can cope with it when any individual working with government knows the intimidation that is laid on employees who question the political activity of ministers, know the pressures that are put on, Mr. Speaker. We can have individuals intimidated against going through the collective bargaining process. I have spoken with members in the bargaining unit, Mr. Speaker, and this is exactly what I am getting. They were hiring, Mr. Speaker, without going through the proper process and I would ask the minister to report on that. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon.

Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice. MR. BARRY: For the second time. MR. DAWE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was not here the last time. Ll854 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: The Premier took it for you the last time. AN HON. MEMBER: No, he did not. MR. TULK: Yes he did. AN HON. MEMBER: What page in Hansard? MR. PATTERSON: He does not want an answer. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I will take it as notice.

I do not even know the gentleman who is in question personally, but if there is something other than what I understand to be the situation I will certainly report back to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has now elapsed. Notices of Motion MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act To Amend And Consolidate The Law Respecting The Continuation Of The Incorporation And The Municipal Affairs Of The City Of Corner Brook".

No. 36 Rl854

MR. SPEAKER: It was agreed yesterday that we would deal with government business rather than Private Member's Day today. Orders of the Day MR. MARSHALL: Concurrence Motion No. Social Services Committee. MR. SPEAl<ER: 3, the The Concurrence Motion was adjourned by the hen. Minister of the Environment. The hen. Minister of the Environment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BUTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I adjourned the debate yesterday I was making a few comments on what the han. member for Gander (Mr. Baker) had alluded to.

I think his very short tirade was rather pleasant at times but it was somewhat of a biology lecture that one would expect to hear from a biology teacher in a classroom. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think the hen. member for Gander, the rookie member for Gander, the one time member for Gander, has shown his party's position with respect to the spray programme. I gather from all the comments that the han. member has made that the Liberal Party is definitely opposed to a spray programme. They have no intention whatsoever, Mr. Speaker, in protecting the jobs in the forest industry. MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Ll855 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (Greening): A point of order, the hen. member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to point out to the minister and to all people present that in a statement made earlier today our forestry spokesman (Mr. Gilbert) very clearly laid out the position of the Liberal Party with regards to the spray programme.

Our position, as has been stated many times, is that we have to guarantee a wood supply to the mills and if we have to protect the forests, then so be it, we will, but we would find the safest possible method to protect the forests and we would accelerate the silviculture programme. This, in essence, is it. Our position is not as the hen. minister is stating. He is deliberately trying to twist words to try to fill up his half hour. I would suggest, if he wants to fill up his half hour, he do so with statements that are in fact correct as I did with my half hour, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (Greening): To that point of order, the han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. BUTT: The hen. member for Gander (Mr. Baker), once again, is interrupting another member while he is responding to comments made. Mr. Speaker, yesterday, while the hen. member was speaking, I sat in my seat and I did not interrupt the hen. member. He will have an occasion if he wishes to respond to what I have to say. I do not No. 36 Rl855

necessarily member. As agree with a matter of the hon. fact, I find very few occasions when I can agree with the hon. member. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, this is just a point of interruption and there is no point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the Environment. MR. BUTT: Minister of the Once again, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has stated his position quite clearly, the hon. member is against the spray programme. Now, Mr. Speakez:, I want to get into a few points - MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, he has once again told this hon. House what my position is which is totally contrary to what my position is as has been stated in this House. Mr. Speaker, I insist that he stop carrying out this deception because it is a deception. MR. BUTT: That is not a point of order. May I continue, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. Environment. the Minister of the MR. BUTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Ll856 June 19, 1985 Vol XL I will get into some comments made by the hon. member in his remarks yesterday and I ask him, in all fairness, to control himself. I realize the hon. mem~er for the most part does not live in the real world and he makes statements without scientific facts. The hon. gentleman I think is a great student of science fiction. He has made all kinds of irresponsible statements the House without any basis to back it up. here in scientific Now, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member referred to the budget of the Department of the Environment and I would like to address that for a few minutes because this same matter was brought up during the Estimates Committee debate. I pointed out to the hon. member then that basically the Department of the Environment is a regulatory agency of government and, for the most part, the $3.2 million that is allocated for the Department of the Environment is indeed for salaries, for professional staff, very good and competent staff, I might add, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member pointed out that we were well cinder budget and we never had enough to carry out the mandate of the department, but the hon. member does not understand the mandate of the department. Mr. Speaker, just for a brief minute, before I get into my main remarks today, I would like to to zero in on another couple of issues that the hon. member alluded to during his remarks, the association between the Department of Health and the Department of the Environment. We have, Mr. Speaker, as government departments do, excellent relationship between Department of Health and most an the the No. 36 Rl856

Department of the Environment. I think that was shown quite clearly, Mr. Speaker, very recently at a meeting in Cartwright where we had officials from the Department of Health, the Department of the Environment, and a doctor from the Grenfell Mission was there at the time, to address a serious concern of the people in that area relating to a PCB spill that happened some time ago. There was a fair amount of distortion, Mr. Speaker, surrounding that meeting by some media people. The fact of the matter was the meeting went extremely well, Mr. Speaker.

There was some 140 townspeople and councillors showed up and had their fears allayed by the officials of the Department of the Environment and the Department of Health. The fact of the matter was, Mr. Speaker, that it was incorrectly reported that there was an unusual amount of cancer cases reported in that Labrador community. In the last ten years, Mr. Speaker, in Cartwright, there has been twenty-two cases of cancer reported. That is pretty average with the rest of the Province. What kind of cancer was reported?

The normal kind, if you can call cancer normal, there was stomach cancer and breast cancer and things of that nature. Newfoundlanders, on the whole, have more cases of stomach cancer than any other Province in Canada because of our salt diet, I believe. In any event, Mr. Speaker, there was nothing extraordinary about the number of cancer cases reported from Cartwright, indeed it is on the average with the rest of the Province. We had some twenty-two cases reported in the last ten Ll857 June 19, 1985 Vol XL years, and that is slightly over two cases per year. The han. the member for Gander (Mr.

Baker) made, what I would call, some very irresponsible statements about the upcoming spray programme, and I have taken note of what the han. member alluded to on many occasions. I would just like to go through this now for the benefit of members of the House. The han. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) is back in his seat, and I am glad he is. I will just run through this again, because I am sure the han. member will want to be informed that indeed there is no unusual amount of cancer-related incidents in Cartwright, there have only been twenty-two cases recorded in the last ten years.

I realize he did not get up to the public meeting that was held up there, but there was an excellent clean-up job done, paid for, of course, by the taxpayers of this Province to Westinghouse Canada at the time, who did an excellent job of cleaning up the site and there is no evidence of any PCBs there. What my department officials did undertake to do, in co-operation with the Development Association there, there is some snow on an existing site right now and they intend to go back there when the snow is gone to do some further testing to see if any PCB-contaminated material was disposed of on that site.

But, in the actual location where the PCB spill occurred, there is no evidence whatsoever today that there is any PCB in that area. There was some concern by residents there that it may have gotten into their water supply. No. 36 Rl857

Mr. Speaker, I do not pretend to be an expert on PCBs, far from it, I am much too modest to say it even if I were, but the fact of the matter is, there is no possible way, according to officials in my department, that the PCBs could get into the water supply that the people in Cartwright are drinking. I just want to bring that up for the benefit of the bon. member. MR. HISCOCK: Are the Americans going to take that out to Goose Bay?n MR. BUTT: No. no. MR. HISCOCK: Will the Department of National Defence be taking it out to Goose Bay like they are doing in other areas? MR.

BUTT: The Department of Defence will certainly be addressing the PCBs storage in Goose Bay, yes, that is on the military reserve there. I had a meeting with the hon. Eric Nielson and they will be addressing that problem, hopefully, in the not too distant future, and they will either remove it or destroy it on site with a new process that has just been refined by a professor Barton at Kingston University, in Ontario. MR. WARREN: Tell him about the good job I have been doing in his district. MR.

BUTT: Well, the bon. member is doing a good job as usual in his district, and he is doing a good job for the bon. member, in his district of Eagle River, in reporting any pollution concerns to the minister. As a matter of fact, Ll858 June 19, 1985 Vol XL the bon. member is on to me on a daily basis. Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to dwell on this too long because I realize this is cutting into my time and I want to make some statements on comments made by the bon. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) who is totally ignorant of the facts, by the way, about this spray programme.

I wish he was in his seat, but I am sure he is within hearing distance. The hon. gentleman does not like the truth. He stood up here in the House and made irresponsible statements, totally ignorant of the facts surrounding this spray. The bon. gentleman lives in a science fiction world, not in the real world. Now, Mr. Speaker, the bon. member made some irresponsible statements about how this spray programme would be conducted. He also alluded to the fact that there were several consultants who would not touch it because of the sloppy way it was going to be done.

Just let me inform the bon. member of the pattern we are taking to carry out this spray programme. It will be monitored on a minute-to-minute basis by the Department of the Environment, Mr. Speaker. The bon. gentleman is now back in his seat and I would like to get back to it again because, whether he does it deliberately or otherwise, or he is totally ignorant of the facts surrounding it. The bon. member has made, particularly in his leader's absence, unfounded very, very statements the spray programme. serious concerning To address this, Mr.

Speaker, in the time I have remaining, in a very fundamental way, so that the No. 36 Rl858

bon. gentleman will understand it, I will take him back to reality, from the classroom in Gander to the House of Assembly. Which airstrips will the spray programme operate from? That is all laid out, all that pattern is laid out, what airports will be used. Where will the mix~ng and storage of the insecticide be carried out? That is all laid out. How will it be transported? In radio-equipped vehicles, ready to deal with any type of an emergency. It even goes into, Mr. Speaker, the security arrangements. Where will be stored? Will there be security? Yes, twenty-four hours around the clock.

If an airplane has to use an unpaved runway to take off, will dust be a problem? No, Mr. Speaker, dust will not be a problem. We are going to use some oil to take care of that, calcium chloride. What percautions are being taken minimize the exposure of people to the spray? Well, Mr. Speaker, there will not be any spray by the larger aircraft within a 1. 5 kilometer zone using the large aircraft and • 8 kilometers buffer zones will be around watersheds and where people are, Summer homes and things like that. What percautions are being taken to handle accidental poisoning of spray personnel or other people?

Hospitals are going to be alerted beforehand in case there is an accident. People handling it will have protective clothing on them. Everything is being done according to plan. What instructions are being given to workers? Well, Mr. Speaker, workers involved in the mixing of the fenitrothion will have classroom sessions and they will Ll859 June 19, 1985 Vol XL have to pass an examination before they can be an employee. They will be fully equipped, as I said, with rubber boots, goggles, face masks, and all of that. What happens if there is a spill of the insecticide in a dike or what have you?

We will have emergency vehicles with absorbent to take care of it. We will have equipment there to make dikes around it, and so on. What plans are in place to protect people and the environment if the spray plane crashes in a bush? We will have the · Forestry people geared up for this at all times. They will go to the crash site with hospital supplies and medical equipment. Mr. Speaker, every last minute detail is being covered, Unlike what the hon. member said that this was being done in a haphazard, very sloppy way.

What will be done to protect the public and the environment if a spray plane crashes near an airport? We have taken that into consideration too. We have been accused of being very sloppy. We have actually anticipated every single possible thing that could happen during this period of spraying. Expose personnel will receive immediate medical attention. The spray base operation's manager will arrange for a clean up of any spilled insecticide and removal and decontamination of the aircraft tanks.

If there is a load that has to be jetison, as happened with the matacil back some time ago, there will be an emergency locator in the tank. No. 36 Rl859

Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. member has left a clear impression that this spray programme is being carried out in a very shoddy and haphazard way, which is untrue, totally unfounded and totally unfair. MR. SIMMS: It is unfair to the staff. MR. · BUTT: Yes, it is unfair to the staff. You know, the han. member has raised a lot of unfounded fears in the minds of Newfoundlanders. There are times when the han. member is responsible. But I can tell you the statements that comes out of that han. gentleman there opposite dealing with the spray programme have been totally irresponsible. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

BUTT: I am not getting into that. AN HON. MEMBER: Was the member • for Gander (Mr. Baker) ever sprayed? Where you ever sprayed? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BUTT: Just let me get through the rest of these so the han. gentleman will know exactly what we are doing. I hope then he will be able to go home tonight and sleep tightly knowing very well that the environment is in good hands in the han. member for Conception Bay South. What will happen to a container if fenitrothion has been transported or stored?

The drums will be Ll860 June 19, 1985 Vol XL decontaminated and either transported to a metal treatment centre or crushed for recycling as they will be sold to local agents of mainland steel o.r drum manufacturing or reconditioning for shipment out of the Province. Mr. Speaker, there are just another couple of recommendations I would like to go through just to finish this up. I have a couple of other items that I would like to get on. I am not sure how much time I have left, but I believe I only used two minutes yesterday. Is that correct?

But anyway, in the normal course of any jobs there are often small accidents which do not seem important at the time, but in the case of the insecticide could be some cause of later problems. So are there any precautions being taken to head off this sort of situation? Well, Mr. Speaker, all personnel are required to report any accident or mishap no matter how minor, no matter how minute it is, they have to report it to the base operations man. All these reports will be maintained as a permanent record. This operation will be carried out with pinpoint accuracy, every minute detail will be recorded. AN HON.

MEMBER: Will wind speed be recorded? MR. BUTT: Well you know I told the han. gentleman one time before, I cannot control the rain, I cannot control the wind either, but I mean we are obviously not going to spray - MR. SIMMS: From zero to eight kilometers. MR. BUTT: No. 36 Rl860

Yes, from zero to eight kilometers, that is when we would be spraying. If it is outside of those guidelines we will not be spraying. The fact of the matter is that we can spray for the hemlock looper over a much longer period of time than we can for the bud worm. I mean the hen. member was out to lunch the other day, he was talking about the spray for the hemlock looper in New Brunswick, the fact of the matter is there is no spray for the hemlock looper in New Brunswick because they . have a problem with budworms up there, not loopers. MR. BAKER: I did not say it. MR.

BUTT: It was reported, and the hen. gentleman said it, whether he meant to say it or not, that is another matter. It is on the public record, the hon. gentleman has not done his research very well. MR. BAKER: Tell me where and when I said they are spraying for the hemlock loopers in New Brunswick? MR. BUTT: I have it right here. I will tell the hon. member now very shortly.

I will give the hon. gentleman the incident, I did not pay too much attention to you until you kind of got way off in left field on this and I realized, I said, "If you let·that guy go far enough he will hang himself." I started listening to what the hon. gentleman was saying. Mr. Baker states to the CBC News that chemical spray has not worked in New Brunswick and he does not believe it will get rid of the hemlock looper in Newfoundland. Ll861 June 19, 1985 Vol XL I would like to inform the hon. member for Gander (Mr. Baker) that we are not spraying for the budworm here in Newfoundland, it is the hemlock looper.

MR. BAKER : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): A point of order, the hon. member for Gander. MR. BUTT: I touched a nerve again in the hen. gentleman. He is interrupting again, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAKER: I would like to clarify again a very incorrect impression, I asked the hon. minister to read where I said that they were spraying for hemlock looper in New Brunswick and he promised to read it and he read out a statement which said nothing of the sort. Now is that the kind of information the hon. minister is giving us? Is that the kind of thing that we have rely on from the hon. minister? MR.

BUTT: This was on the CBC News. MR • BAI<:ER : I would suggest the minister get someone to teach him how to read those few sentences. MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order, obviously. MR. SPEAKER (Green in g): To the point of order, there is no point of order. The hen. Environment. the Minister of the AN HON. MEMBER: Repeat it John. No. 36 Rl86l

MR. BUTT: Yes, I will repeat it for the hon. member. Okay? This is in the CBC, "Mr. Baker stated to the CBC News that the chemical spray has not worked in New Brunswick and he does not believe it will get rid of the hemlock looper in Newfoundland." MR. TULK: Does that for the Brunswick? say they are spraying hemlock looper in New Do not be so stunned. MR. BUTT: That is the impression that the hon. member gave. New Brunswick is not spraying against the looper, Mr. Speaker, New Brunswick is spraying against the bud worm. The hon. gentleman · clearly left a false impression. MR. SIMMS: He used comparison. MR.

BUTT: New Brunswick as Yes, he left a false impression. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BUTT: a Now, Mr. Speaker, I will just move on and I want to talk about another couple of matters which were raised by the hon. member for Gander. I have too much paraphernalia here on my desk, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member alluded to some massive problems with PCB and PCB-contaminated material here in the Province, and he has done it on several occasions. The hon. gentleman has not been very complimentary to the staff in the Department of the Environment in this regard, Mr. Speaker.

The fact of the matter is that the Province of Newfoundland and Ll862 June 19, 1985 Vol XL Labrador has much better inventory control of the PCB liquid and PCB contaminated material and other hazardous waste then most, we have an enviable record in Canada, Mr. Speaker. We know where about 90 per cent of this most undesirable material is~ It ·is not perfect. We do have a problem, we will always have a problem as long as this stuff is in existence. But, Mr. Speaker, for an underfunded department, a department with no budget, we have done a pretty good job with that, we have done a pretty good job on that score, Mr.

Speaker. And I give all the credit in the world to a highly skilled professional staff in the Department of the Environment. MR. SPEAKER (Greening}: Order, please! The hon. elapsed. MR. BUTT: minister's time has .I would just like to go on for another little while. May I continue? I would like to take the hon. gentleman out on the Exploits River, but it would be much better doing it with the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight} here. AN HON. MEMBER: No leave. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. minister's time has elapsed. Before recognizing the hon. Minister of Forestry (Mr.

Simms} , I would like to welcome to the visitor's gallery Pamela Saint Evens, from California, Margaret Inman-Kane from California, and Russell Munn from Tucson, Arizona. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 36 Rl862

Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Greenin g): They represent the Elder Hostel Association. The hen. Minister ·Resources and Lands. MR. TULK: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: of Forest The hen. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) was clearly standing in his place when the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) was standing and it has been tradi tiona!, Your Honour, will recall, to go back and forth across this House in debates. The Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt) has just spoken therefore I think it would be only appropriate that the member for Fortune Hermitage (Mr.

Simmons) speak. MR. SPEAKER (Greeni ng ): The first person standing was the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. TULK: Well, Mr. Speaker, he was standing as well, there is no arguing that, and the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands knows that. MR. SIMMS: To that point of Speaker. MR. SP EAKER : The hen. Minister Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: order, Mr. of Forest The hen. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) says that it is practice and tradition, and that may well be, Ll863 June 19, 1985 Vol XL however, I fact, when recall yesterday, in members opposite had two speakers in a row.

There were members on this side prepared to stand but when another member stood and was recognized there was no big furor or anything like that. The hen. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk ) knows that I am only going to speak for five or ten minutes. MR. TULK: To that point of order. MR. SP EAKER : The hen. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) uses terrible precedence when he stands in this House and I am ashamed, really, that he sat in the · Chair that Your Honour is now in.

But yesterday, the precedence that he referred to found us waiting, as a matter of fact, for a minute for the government side to put somebody up and they had nobody ready. .Now, as I said to Your Honour, and he may not have seen the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmon~), and I have no doubt that perhaps he did not, but when the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands was standing the member for Fortune - Hermitage was clearly standing in his place as well. Convention should prevail here and we should go back and forth across this House. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Further to this the hen. member North. MR. J. CARTER: No. 36 point of for St. order, John's Rl863

I could clearly see that the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) was merely squirming in his seat and there was no indication that he was going to get up. So I think the minister should be recognized. MR. W. CARTER: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: The member for Fortune-Hermitage was on his feet, Mr. Speaker, even be~ore the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Simms). Yesterday in the House, the matter referred to, the other side did not put a speaker up. Our members sat for awhile and eventually one of our members stood up and entered the debate. MR.

SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. member for Fortune Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: Are you continuing the point of order? MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, I rose to participate in the debate and I would like to do so now if I may. MR. SIMMS: The han. member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) spoke last on the point of order. AN HON. MEMBER: The Speaker ruled. He ruled. MR. SIMMS: I did not hear His Honour ruling. AN HON. MEMBER: Ll864 June 19, 1985 Vol XL Yes, well he ruled. MR. SIMMS: Did His Honour rule? Honour did not rule. MR.

SPEAKER: No, His Is the hon. member · for Fortune-Hermitage speaking to "that point of order? MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, I had assumed that you have dispensed with the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: No, I had not ruled on the point of order. I thought you were speaking to that point of order. MR. SIMMONS: No, I want to participate in the debate but nobody will let me. MR. SIMMS: Now again, Mr. Speaker, just to reiterate what I have already said in this particular - MR. SPEAKER: Are you speaking to that point of order? MR.

SIMMS: Yes I am, Your Honour, and the point that I wish to make is similar to, you know, points that I made before. Yesterday there were two members, the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) and the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) followed each other. MR. TULK: Because you never put anyone up. MR. SIMMS: That is quite acceptable. That can happen. And if His Honour recognizes somebody, the first person who catches his eye that is quite in order, quite acceptable No. 36 Rl864

and that is the way that the practice goes. If members opposite are going to kick up a great big fuss over it or a big furor over it, I mean that is something else. The han. member opposite will get a chance to speak when I am ·concluded. I am only going to speak for five or ten minutes or so. I just want to make some very good points. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): To that point of order, the Chair recognized first of all the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands so now the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands may speak. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR . SIMMONS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the han. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMM ONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have some rights in this House. I will say to you that the number of rights I have diminishes daily. Effectively, I find that we have very few rights in this House compared to what we had had in past time. It is a well established tradition of this House that speakers alternate from side to side when there is one -standing on each side. Now, Mr. Speaker, this whole process is an absolute charade anyway.

We are asked to discuss six departments in three hours, a so called Concurrence Debate, better called a rubber stamp debate. Then on top of that the Ll865 June 19, 1985 Vol XL government uses its majority, its occupancy of the Chair and everything else it -can do to muzzle our few opportunities to have a few words. This is an absolute circus. What are you going through the motions for over there? Why do you not just put her through?

Two speakers, two ministers in a row on this Concurrence Debate • We could not get any answers from them in Committee and now they will not even give us a chance to raise the questions again. In an hour this whole process is going to be over, Mr. Speaker. My rights are being seriously breached by the Chair 's decision to recognize two government ministers in a row. I understood the government wanted some input, wanted some questions. We do not get a chance to ask the questions if they are doing all the talking. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege. MR.

SPEAKER (Greenin g) : To that point of privilege, the han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMM S: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to make things as bearable for Your Honour and as acceptable for members of this House. And in light of the argument that is being put forth - and I am very anxious to hear what the member for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) has to say - I am quite prepared to forego my opportunity to say a few words in this debate and let the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir be recognized. MR. TULK: To that point of privilege, Mr. No. 36 Rl865

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The member for Grand Falls, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, clearly recognizes that the a~gument we are making on this side is correct, the argument that the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) is making is correct. While we will now see the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) stand, the Speaker will reco _gnize too once he researchs the tradition of this House that what my hon. friend is saying is right.

That is what the member for Grand Falls, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands is recognizing as well. I think that is a very good recognition on his part. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands can decide to speak or not to speak but I do not think he should sit on his rights. I think it should be clearly stated that he has the absolute and unchallenged right to speak. The member for Fortune - Hermitage only slithered into this House by the most disgraceful of means and, as a result, he should not have any rights anyway.

The minister is prepared to give way, but I think the minister should be recognized and then if he wishes to give way he should just speak for a few seconds. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Ll866 June 19, 1985 Vol XL To that point of privilege, there is no point of privilege. The hon. member for Fortune Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a few minutes to talk about the matters before us in this Concurrence resolution. I would like to take a moment to respond ever so briefly to the insane babblings of the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter).

The record will show, unless he now questions the actions of the Chief Electoral Officer, that I, like he, got in this House in the same way. I was elected by a majority of the people in the riding in which I offered myself. He did the same thing, so we are here as equals in that respect, only in that respect, I may say. I would never deign to suggest that I am an equal of him in any other respect. I would not aspire to it, I would not stoop to it, as the case may be. Now, Mr.

Speaker, here we are, three hours altogether, six government departments, Justice, Social Services, Education, Environment, Culture, and Health, all to be dispensed with in three hours. What an absolute charade! I say to our friends from the United States who are in the gallery, when their illustrious predecessor, John Munn, was here, he did not see any outrages quite like they are witnessing here today. In those days, men of Munn's calibre saw to it that certain basic parliamentary positions were observed.

His descendants are seeing today a trampling of basic parliamentary rights in a way that is unparalleled, absolutely unprecedented anywhere in the No. 36 Rl866

parliamentary system, in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, the United States, which is not a parliamentary system, as such, but cert;ainly is a descendant of that particular system; it emanates somewhat from the Westminster experience but is adapted to the · particular requirements of the United States of America. But all those systems which are either parliamentary in name or parliamentary in terms of descendancy, in none of these do you have the charade that we have seen came .oed here this afternoon and all through this whole estimates period, an travesty of the process. absolute I do not know why, Mr.

Speaker, we, in the Opposition, continue to even participate in it. I tell you, Mr. Speaker, the only thing that keeps us here at all at these times is that we recognize that in our absence, the hon. crowd opposite, with no compunction at all, would just ram her right through. So we stay here to be watchdogs of some sort. It is difficult, Mr. Speaker, to be very effective watchdogs when the process is perverted every time you turn around. The rules are bent, the process is absolutely perverted every time you turn around. The debate has been stifled.

I remember the Speaker, back in rhetoric, 1971 when Mr. this hon. crowd, or some of them, were in Opposition, how they used to tell us that they had opened the system up. They have opened it up all right, and put both hands in and filled their pockets. MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Ll867 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (Greening ): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, is this kind of comment going to be allowed to stand? I think the hon. gentleman should be called to order. Filling our pockets, indeed! I think he should be brought to order.

MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAIRD: Withdraw or back it up. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, speaking of landslides. MR. BAIRD : I am here instead of your brother. MR. TULK: Barely. MR. SIMM ONS: Just barely, and temporarily. The gentleman from Humber West (Mr. Baird) is the duly elected member. He had to hang on by his fingernails, but he is there. He is a duly elected member and it is nice to see him from time to time drop in and see what we are doing here. MR.

RUSSELL: You have been missing for a week or ten days. MR. SIMM ONS : Mr. the Speaker, the gentleman No. 36 former Speaker, from Lewisporte, Rl867

knows that he should not mislead the House. If he would check Hansard, it was only in the last three or four days I was speaking right here in this selfsame place, so how he can call that ten days, I am not sure. MR. RUSSELL: You have not been here for a week. MR. SIMMONS: That is not true. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: That is not true! Now, Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes we have, instead of trying to educate the gentleman · from Lewisporte (Mr. Russell), which is a fair task, you must admit, let us get on to the subject at hand.

Six government departments - we have seen what kind of leadership we ~re going to have in Environmeat. We have seen that in the last· few minutes, so I would not even insult the House by trying to take it through an elaboration of what is so evident. It is so axiomatic. The minister stands up, and you understand immediately what kind of leadership we are going to have in that department over the next year or so. No amount of money we throw at that department through the estimates is going to be any good, because the whole exercise is going to be absolutely bungled.

Money, of itself, how ever many millions of dollars, by themselves, cannot wipe out incompetence, and that is what you have in that particular case. Now, in department the case and Ll868 June 19, 1985 of I another see the Vol XL gentleman from Grand Bank, the Minister of Cult~re, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), standing in the wings, he will never be called incompetent, at least, not from my knowledge of him. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I regard him as a very competent individual and so if he has a crime, if he has a sin, if he commits an error it will not be one of competence, it will be one of willfulness in the pursuit of patronage at all costs. He has got the whole area down there, Grand Bank - Fortune, at the moment, in an absolute uproar, his friends are fighting among themselves because some of the more competent Tories did not get the jobs because the less competent Tories had more on the minister. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of leadership we are going to have in the Ministry of Culture, Recreation and Youth.

It is going to be a jock oriented ministry, a sports oriented ministry - MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): A point of order, the hen. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Did my ears deceive me? Did the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) suggest that some of the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth' s (Mr. Matthews) constituents have something on him? This is an accusation of the most serious kind and I think he should be ordered to withdraw it. MR. SIMMONS: To that Speaker. No. 36 point of order, Mr. Rl868

MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, knowing · the current occupant of the Chair to be a very astute individual I am sure he will be no more fooled by that bit of nonsense than he was by the earlier comments, with the same straight face, from the same vacant mind, when he talked about somebody slithering into this House. There is no point of order and I would like to continue if I may. MR. SPEAI<ER : To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR.

SIMM ONS: Now, the gentleman who heads the Ministry of Culture, Recreation and Youth has a fair budget and it will not be dissipated through incompetence but through a preoccupation with patronage, looking after the boys, through narrow-mindedness, not recognizing that the Culture Department is a Culture, Youth and Recreation Department. There are three parts to it. The Premier was wise in putting all three parts of the label there but the minister has chosen to ignore two parts of the label, the Youth part of it.

Already he is gutting that part of his department for the sake of the sports side, and, we know where he stands on Culture. If you are not sure where he stands, Mr. Speaker, ask the Carol Players in Labrador City, they know where he stands on Culture. He stands different places on different days depending on what kind of political advantage he perceives may be in Ll869 June 19, 1985 Vol XL it for him and the government. Well, I say to him he came much too late for that exercise, he blew that one completely. Here was a group, Mr.

Speaker, of people who had gone beyond our shores, did us absolutely immense credit and he could not even get the message, after in fact, kept insulting them in this House and outside this House. Now the parallel has been drawn by this side and others with the hockey team over in Corner Brook, a great bunch of people. I was not here yesterday, but we have no suggestion that we ought to borrow from one to give to the other. We ask instead, Mr. Speaker, that this monumental achievement by the Carol Players in Labrador City be recognized tangibly with a small contribution, $1,000 or $2,000.

They do not want to break the bank, Mr. Speaker. They want a fraction of the kind of money that this government is spending on patronage appointments to look after the people who have been rejected. The Tory rejects out there, the people who have been rejected by the electorate of this Province, are getting $50,000, $60,000, $65,000. Goose Bay, for example, $50,000 - $60,000, Mr. Speaker, and we cannot find $1,000 or $2,000. What is their crime in Labrador City? MR. LUSH: It is more defeated. MR. SIMMONS: lucrative to be Their crime, ·Mr. Speaker, is they were not Tory enough.

Not that they did not pull off a fantastic achievement, Mr. Speaker, they were not Tory enough. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have said that with the Minister of the No. 36 Rl869

Environment it is a question of straight incompetence, in the case of the Minister of Culture, Recreation and· Youth (Mr. Matthews) it is a case, not of incompetence, but of willfulness and stubbornness and a preoccupation with patronage. In the case of the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) we on this side, Mr. Speaker, have not decided fully whether it is a matter of incompetence or a matter of revenge or what, but what he has done - and were he here in the House I would say more, so I will just cover it in passing, since his is one of the departments and where is he?

Here is the Concurrence Debate on Education and he is. nowhere to be seen. We are doing a concurrence debate on Justice and the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) is not here, we are doing a concurrence debate on Environment and the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt) is not here, a concurrence debate on Health, the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) is not here. I mean what an absolute concert, ·what a charade. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett), to his credit, is here and the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth is here. Two out of six here. Here is the Minister of Education.

He is wise to come into the House when his estimates are being debated. It is good to see him and I welcome him. I was about to say - and I was going to say it only in passing but now I can say it more fully to his face - we on this side have not.made up our minds if in the case of the Minister of Education it is a question of incompetence, as it clearly is in the case of the Minister of the Environment, or, if it is a case of revenge and stubbornness as in Ll870 June 19, 1985 Vol XL the case of the member from Grand Bank, the Minister of Sports (Mr.

Matthews), called the Minister of Recreation and Youth but only the Minister of Sports, de facto. In the case of the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn), we really have not decided which it is, it is either straight incompetence, lack of knowing, lack of know-how, or it is revengefulness, but for whatever reason this charade, this insult that he has visited on members of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association precedent.

It is thing, an absolutely of business. is without a shameful shameful bit I remember when we were in high school and when we were in university in the teaching profession, you looked up to the Minister of Education, whatever his political colour. You looked up to him as a person who spoke for education in the Province. And now, these days, every time you turn on your television all you see is a little cheap partisan politician trying to insult some people who are out there trying to educate young people in this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as a former teacher, I will be the first to say to you, and to say it publicly for anybody to hear, that a group of teachers are no different than a group of housewives or carpenters or fishermen or engineers or business people or whatever other category you might want to pick. There are some good ones and some bad ones. Mr. Speaker, it is a standing rule, a rule of ordinary common decency that you do not rush out and tar everybody with the same brush on the possibility that somebody out there may have been No. 36 Rl870

less than circumspect in the way they conducted themselves in the classroom, and I say may have been. We do not know. Because all we hear are broad generalities and accusations of hooliganism and terrorism, and being taught in Nicaragua and that kind of excessive rhetoric. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we all know, because we heard about some of the speeches that some of the winning Tory candidates made on election night when they feeling their oats, when they were full of joy and some othe:r things • They made great speeches that they have since come to neglect somewhat about how they were going to get square, and I can refer you to a number of those halls where the Tory victory speeches were held, where the Tory candidate got up and named the names of teachers he was going to get. That happened, Mr. Speaker, on the night of April 2.

It happened in Grand Bank, it happened in Placentia, when the Tory candidate got up, and they are both present in the Chamber right now, got up and named the individual teachers that they were going to go after now that they were re-elected. MR. PATTERSON: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hen. member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: I attended that rally in Dunville, I guess that is the one that the NTA, his hooligan friends sent out a notice on and I have it in my desk and he knows I have it there, telling the teachers not to attend that rally.

At no time did we mention the names of people we Ll871 June 19, 1985 Vol XL were going Patterson is will get you you about it. to get, because if going to get you he and he will not tell MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, he is not speaking from his own seat there. MR. PATTERSON: You sit down. MR. BARRY: He is not in his own chair, he is not allowed to speak. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Spealter, I have to disagree with my friend from Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), while he was not speaking in his seat he was certainly speaking from his seat. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear; hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. member for Fortune Hermitage.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hen. member Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: for Mr. Speaker, my absolutely, abject, humble apologies to my dear, dear friend from Placentia (Mr. Patterson). When he was preoccupied, comparing notes with his colleague from Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) - MR. MATTHEWS: No notes at all. MR. SIMMONS: No, when he was having an No. 36 Rl871

intellectual discussion with his friend from Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews), at that particular time I was saying something, and I want to repeat it. If he would just cool it for a minute I would tell him what I said because I did not say what he thought I said. I was not referring to the rally at all. I was saying, and I· will now say to his face and to the face of the gentleman from Grand Bank, that on the night of your victory, the night you won the election, the night that the gentleman from Placentia won the election, April 2, the night the gentleman from Grand Bank (Mr.

Matthews) won the election, April 2, on that night these two gentlemen, individually in their respective victory celebrations, gave notice that they were going to be going after, making it rough for particular teachers and named those teachers by name in their victory - MR. PATTERSON: Do you mean that? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I do mean that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, he cannot speak from somebody else's seat. Mr. Speaker, get him back to his seat. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, he may not like it but I just tell him what I know to be the case. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

PATTERSON: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Ll872 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: He has found his seat. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: I challenge the hon. member to name the teachers that I said I am going to get. Now put up or shut up. You name it. MR. BARRY: You said you were going to get them. MR. PATTERSON: I did not say it. What I had to say about the teachers I said it to their face. I did not single out any individually. The teachers in Placentia district, I referred to them as hooligans, not all of them, but those who were involved in harrassing my meetings.

MR. BARRY: Anybody who voted against you. MR. PATTERSON: No. No. No. MR. BAIRD: Do not be butting in, boy. MR. PATTERSON: Do not be butting in. You were down in Placentia with your big rallies and your parties and the whole works. I can tell you fellows a lot of things. But I challenge the hon. member now to name the teachers I said I was going to get. And come outside the door and say it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, the hon. No. 36 Rl872

the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: If Your Honour would rule on that one then I have another one there that I would like to - MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MR. BARRY: A further point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader ·of the Opposition, on a further point of order. MR. BARRY: A number of times, in the last few minutes, the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) has sent threats across the floor of the House. I would like the member to be asked to withdraw that - MR. TULK: He also called the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) a liar. MR.

BARRY: - and also the reference to the member for Fortune - Hermitage being a liar. I would like it to be ordered, Mr. Speaker, and demanded that he withdraw that? MR. PATTERSON: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Placentia, to the point of order. MR. PATTERSON: The hon. member for Fortune Hermitage said that I named names at my victory parade. I did not name names of teachers. If he has the names - Ll873 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: You did not have the guts to name names. MR. PATTERSON: - let him produce · the names here and I will withdraw. MR.

BARRY: You did not have the guts to name names. Withdraw! Withdraw! MR. PATTERSON: That is rubbish, that is trash coming from liars. I did not do it. I did not say it. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, the hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: To the point of order raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) , I mean, everybody is aware that from time to time during the heat of debate members make certain comments and say - MR. BARRY: Withdraw! Withdraw! MR. SIMMS: Just a second now - say certain things.

There is nothing unusual at all about one hon. member challenging anotherhon .member to repeat his charges outside of the House. That is all my friend for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) did. There is nothing wrong with that. That is perfectly legitimate, perfectly in order, and it happens on a very, very frequent basis. I would suggest to Your Honour the point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) really has no validity. We No. 36 Rl873

... are only using up the time of the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons). Your Honour should rule there is no point of order and let the han. member get on with his tremendous speech. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo, to that point of order. MR. TULK: What the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) is saying is partially true, that indeed in the heat of debate people do make certain statements. The member for .Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) made a direct threat to the member for Fortune - Hermitage, across the House, that if you go outside and say that you will get something in the gob. Then he also went on to call him a liar from his seat. Now the whole point is the member should withdraw. He should withdraw. MR. BARRY: He has to withdraw. MR. TULK: Come on, boy. Stand up and be a man and withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! To that point of order, I am going to have a look at Hansard and I will rule on that matter tomorrow. The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMS: Start again. MR.

SIMMONS: Ll874 June 19, 1985 Vol XL Thank you, cousin. Mr. Speaker, I want you to know that I appreciated the protection of my cousin from Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) because I need all of the p:t'otection I can get. I am absolutely shaking in my shoes at the onslaught of the gentleman for Placentia (Mr. Patterson). MR. PATTERSON: You are a liar. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. PATTERSON: You told lies on me House. You come outside House and say what you here. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! in this of this said in The hon. member is not permitted to call another hon. member a liar.

I ask the hon. member to withdraw that. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, no, Sir! Not until that man proves what he said, that I mentioned one person I am going to get. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fortunate - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: As an officer of the House, of course, Mr. Speaker, you have the responsibility to deal with the issue, and I leave it with you. I do not care if he withdraws or not. I have my opinion of the gentleman for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) and he clearly has his No. 36 Rl874

opinion of me. It is a matter of no substance for me. I told the House what I understand to be the truth. We have a difference of views. That is understandable. MR. PATTERSON: You told ·what you want understand to be the truth. MR. SIMMONS: to Now watch the mind at work, Mr. Speaker. Watch the mind at work. Just watch the mind at work. I leave it, Mr. Speaker, for you to do what you have to do and then I would like to get . on with my speech. MR. BARR Y: There is no debate on that, Mr. Speaker. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER (McNic holas): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the debate has been going on in a somewhat disjointed fashion in the last little while, which has placed Your Honour in an extremely difficult circumstance. My understanding is that Your Honour said he would take this matter under advisement. SOME BON. MEMBERS : No. No! DR. CO LLIN S: My understanding is that Your Honour said he would take it under advisement. MR. SIMM ONS: Order, order! off base. You are completely Ll875 June 19, 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Protect the Speaker. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, if I can be heard. SOME HON. MEMBER S: Oh, oh! DR.

COLLINS: My understanding is that Your Honour took it upon himself - MR. SIMMONS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. "DR. CO LLIN S : - and I think quite correctly - MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fortune -Hermitage. MR. SIMM ONS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER : A point of privilege. MR. SIMMON S: No, Mr. Speaker. On this particular point the member for St. John's South (Dr. Collins) cannot be heard, because there is a procedure before the House now, Mr. Speaker has in vi ted a gentleman to withdraw. He has informed the Chair he is not going to withdraw.

And other than matters of privilege, Mr. Speaker, there can be no other intervening business now until Mr. Speaker deals with that issue, either lets him off the hook or otherwise takes disciplinary action so I can get on with my speech. MR. BARRY: The Speaker has to be protected here. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! No. 36 Rl875

There is no prima facie case of privilege here. I am dealing with the point of order raised and I have not completed same yet... I - am listening to comments from other hon. members, but I have not completed this point of order. I gave the hon. member for Placentia an opportunity of hearing what others had to say. I would ask him to withdraw that comment about an hon •. member being a liar. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the Chair, I am not prepared to withdraw· that that gentleman told lies on me in this House.

Now there must be some means of dealing with people who go about and tell lies on people. I never did single out .or mention the names of anyone. I never did threaten to get anybody. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: There is no point of order. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I think it is time we took a - MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, allowed up. he is MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): not I am prepared to hear the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: even bon. Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that we take a good, cold look at reality and the reality of this situa~ion is that the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Simmons), for whatever reason, has deliberately provoked the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) into Ll876 June 19, 1985 Vol XL an intolerable situation where he felt he had to lash out. I can quite understand the bon. member for Placentia being in a vile temper as a result of this intolerable provocation. I think it is only reasonable to allow the member for Placentia a few minutes to cool down from this intole