ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 53 - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 28 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pate) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Stave BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Ruaaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Bath DOWNEY, Jamea E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER,Phll FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS,Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, O,C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon. VIc SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren • STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 28 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MI NISTERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF RE PORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement. Mr. Speaker, this morning, in Victoria, Premier Bennett of British Columbia released the text of a letter which was sent on June 25th to Prime Minister­ designate on behalf of the Western Premiers.

Copies of the letter were released at the same time in Edmonton, Regina, and Winnipeg. I will table the letter at this time. I believe that honourable members have copies of the letter. Members will note that copies of the letter have also been sent to the Leader of the National Progressive Conservative Party and to the Leader of the National New Democratic Party, as well as to the other Provincial Premiers. The letter speaks for itself.

The purpose is to advise the new Prime Minister and the other federal partry leaders of some of the main issues which the western provinces have identified as top piorlties for discussion after the next election. These issues include: fiscal, economic and monetary policy; new directions for international trade; transportation; tax incentives for economic development; agriculture, and energy.

In other words, we are saying: These are the key issues which the four Western Premiers believe must be at or near the top of the agenda for a new Federal Government with a genuine interest in expanding, strengthening and stabilizing the economies of the western provinces. The governments of the western provinces want to co-operate with the Government of Canada in dealing with these issues, and we are suggesting that detailed discussions take place as soon as possible after the upcoming federal election.

At the same time, I want to emphasize that each of our provinces has its own special concerns -some of which are covered by our joint agenda, and some of which are not. We will be pursuing those concerns with the Federal Government as well -in some cases on a bilateral basis. An example of a critical issue of special concern for Manitobans is equalization. Right now, we are threatened with a reduction of over $70 million in equalization payments next year if the Federal Government doesn't amend its current legislatioin to extend transitional payments which are set to run out at the end of this fiscal year.

We will be contacting Mr. Turner and the other party leaders directly to ensure they understand our concern about this problem and the need for an early decision. Along with these issues, it seems certain that all 10 provinces will be interested in seeing an improvement in national consultations on fiscal and economic policy matters. The joint position of the western provinces is not meant to downgrade the priority that we attach to better national consultations on a wide range of issues.

We believe it will continue to be necessary to pursue discussions with the Federal Government on a national basis, on a regional basis, and on a province-by­ province basis. I should add that the Western Premiers decided to send this letter to the Prime Minister-Designate ahead of the swearing-in ceremony to emphasize the importance that we attach to the concerns that are outlined in it. We want to ensure that these concerns are registered clearly in the federal system, and are not overlooked if an election campaign should get under way in the very near future. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the members of the opposition we thank the Premier for informing us of the initiative taken by the four Western Premiers with respect to the placing forward of their views and concerns to the Prime Minister-Designate.

We appreciate that there are indeed many areas of concern that all western provinces share and that we can achieve, I believe, better recognition and understanding in Ottawa if we operate on a joint basis, if we band together to make our views known collectively and have not only the political concentration of our four provinces working together but also the understanding that there are issues that need to be resolved that are common to many of us particularly in the west .

We particularly recognize the need for additional resources to be shared by the Federal Government with the provinces, an equalization formula and transfer payments and so on. We know that one of the key notes to achieving some degree of satisfaction In that area will be, or course, fostering that spirit of co­ operation and that feeling of better national consultation that the Premier referred to here in his communique.

We wonder, of course, how the newly established creative scheme of preferred shares that Is designed to take federal tax dollars away is going to foster that spirit of co-operation and that attempt at better national consultation. We wonder whether or not the Federal Government will appreciate getting kicked in the pants before it's asked then to be more co-operative and more understanding of the needs and concerns of Manitoba. So having put that on the record, we thank the Minister for sharing the information with us. 2309

Thur�y. 28 June, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I have a statement, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Sp eaker, consistent with the efforts of our government to create new employment opportunities for the citizens of this province, I am pleased to announce another training program in the important area of high technology, yet another, yet another. Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to anno unce that the Government of Canada, through its Critical Skills Growth Fund is providing Red River Community College with $992,000 to assist in the creation of a manufacturing technology training facility at the college. This new facility will be housed in a part of the college which is now being renovate d . With the federal contri bution, we will purchase comput erized manufacturing and robotics equipment. This will enabnle us to train new and existing workers in the use of automated machining equipment and computer­ directed manufacturing equipment.

This facility will serve more than 200 full-time and part-time students this year. Mr. Speaker, - (I nterjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, this new facility will enable the college to provide the most sophisticated, in-depth technical training in the manufacturing field.

We will work closely with private manu facturing firms to provide retraining opportunities for their existing staff as well as courses for their managers, and this is yet another example of government and industry working closely together to improve the skills and competitiveness of our work force. - (I nterjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Spe aker , Manitoba has worked closely with the Federal Government to make excellent use of the Skills Growth Fund.

Because of the quality of our proposals to the Federal Government, we have attracted a total of $12.5 million from the Skills Growth Fund. That is one of the highest per capita amounts provided from the fund to any of the provinces. Mr. Speaker, I am proud to say that we are the only province giving our post secondary institutions direct access to the Skills Growth Fund to develop new training capacity for the skills that are most needed now and will be most needed in the future. The benefits to Ma nitoba of this latest training program are clear, Mr. Speaker.

Through ongoing close association with the Manitoba Research Council and the National Research Council through its Institute of Manufacturing Technology, this new facility will provide training that will remain for years to come on the forefront of development in the automated manufacturing field. The long-term effect will be to provide the best in-province training available anywhere in Cana da. 1t will also provide a resource to manufacturers to create long-term jobs for our citizens, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. I'll try to inject the same type of enthu siasm in my reply, Mr. Speaker, as was offered by the Min ister of Education. Mr. Speaker , I must say that we welcome this announcement. lt points out a number of things, two which are readily apparent to anybody that listens to or reads the statement. Of course, there's no doubt there's common agreement amongst everybody In the educational field and people within the industrial sense that all tension and most available resources should be directed towards this type of new education thrust within our community colleges.

On that basis we can't be at all critical of the statement. As a matter of fact, we would su pport it. · Mr. Speaker, I find something about the statement particularly interesting, that is

whereas we have universities within this province who are waiting for some type of annou ncement as to their futures, and we have a pu blic school system who Is awaiting annou ncements, the only announcement we can find is one specifically in an area where we all can agree. I think there are large aspects of our whole educational field that are waiting for some announ cements which they could laud to some degree also. I find one particular comment here also, Mr.

Speaker, and it's on Page 2, where the Minister says, "This is another example of government and industry working closely together to impr ove the skills and competitiveness of our workforce." My comments are two, Mr. Sp eaker. Firstly, as indicated by the Minister in Estimates, the government in many cases is afford ing large grants to the Industr y in the sense of offering to students an area in which they can be trained and an area in which they can gain experience. The government is affording grants within that area.

Secondly, of course, the Minister was in committee this morning with me when we heard a presentation on Bill 22 where all the efforts to work closely together, I think, are probably going to be destroyed by this government pushing through Bill 22. Mr. Speaker, we thank the Minister for this statement, and we fully endorse its contents. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . In troduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Assessment Review MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

My question will be to the Honourable First Minister, and it stems probably from part of his statement where he said that one of the first priorities of this province would be in the field of equalization. I would ask the Honourable First Minister, if equalization should be a priority in this province is the province then prepared to assist the City of Winnipeg financially for the loss in revenue that has been caused by the freeze that has 2310

Thursday, 28 June, 1984 bee n placed on assessment by this government and maintained fo r the last several years? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Fi rst Minister. A MEMBER: Watch your back, Howard. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, th e decision that was arrived at yest erday by the appropriate board deali ng with questi ons of adjustment is one th a t certa i nly will be evaluated. There was legi sl ation, in fact I believe it was last year, that was int roduced by th e appropriate Minister deali ng with th e questi on of assessment.

The decisi on yesterday will be considered in light of the legi slati on and the other mater ial th a t nee ds to be wei ghed in regard to the City of Winnipeg. MR. H. GRAHAM: A supplementary questi on to th e Honourable Fi rst Minister. In light of the deci sio n that was made yes terday and the nee d that has bee n pointed out so vividly by that report, is th e provi nce now prepared to lift th e free ze? Al so, if they' re doing it, will they lift it across the province as well? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Spea ker, I think I should fi rst emphasize th a t it 's regrettable that the situ ation has occurred , and it 's occurr ed because of fail ure to reassess on the part of th e City of Winnipeg over th e years. Othe rwise, the situa tion would not now be faced. Insof ar as the questi on of lifti ng the freeze, other measures, as I in dicated in my response to the fi rst qu esti on, th ere will be th e development of th e appropriate measures that have to be undertaken.

The Minister of Munici pal Affai rs will be deali ng with that , will be making announcements at th e appropriate time in regard to steps that will be undertaken. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, just in case th ere might be some misunderstand i ng on the part of the Premier, I don't believe that th e city was unwil li ng to assess, the city was prevented by assessing by the actions of the government. Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the Fi rst Mi nister .

Would th e First Mi niste r, when they' re looki ng into this problem, also look into th e problems th a t have arisen in other jurisdictions where complete reli ance on comput eri zati on ha s probably caused more problems than it ha s ever solved? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I first want to correct wh at may be a faulty impression on beh alf of the ho nourable member.

First, as I menti oned earli er, the problem arose because of in ability or reasons that we don't have ti me to deal with now, on th e part of th e city in respec t to reassess i ng over th e years, fi nally ended up with legi slati on that I believe was intr oduced in 19 80 by th e then Conservati ve Governm ent , and th e Member fo r St . Norbert. Then there was further legi slation that has been intr oduced since then. So let us be clear that the provincial involvement arose as a result of problems that were faced by the City of Winnipeg. Mr.

Speaker, I' m not going to comment in respect to computers because I' m sure that my frustration at times perta in ing to the utilization of computers, the mixups, the faulty informatio n, are enough to cause one to te ar one's hair out at ti mes. So I would sympathize with the ob vious fr ustrat io n th at the Honourable Member for Vi rden faces in respect to the new modern computer high-tech era th at we' re living in. Board of Revision - cost to city MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member fo r St .· Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a questi on fo r th e Minister of Urban Affairs.

Could she inform the House as to what the cost will be to the City of Winnipeg as a result of th e Board of Revi sion in terms of lost revenue or reven ue which is forced to return to property owners? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker , I don't have th a t info rmati on. I he ard Council lor Yanofsky on the radio this morning, as I suppose the Mem ber for St. Norbert did. He ha ppens to be my own council lor in Jefferson Ward, I might add. That's my cross to bear.

At any rate, Councillor Yanofsky was saying th a t the amount would be made up in taxes, so I don't know whet her th ere will be a loss to th e City of Winnipeg. If they make it up in ta xes then it won't be lost , they'll have th e money. There is an obvious discrepancy in the amount assessed to, let's say, the large shopping cent res in the edges of th e city and the shopping areas downtown, and that's what he was re fe rring to. MR. G. MERCIER: Wel l, Mr.

Spea ker, in view of the fact that ta xes in the City of Winnipeg have risen dramatically under the NDP compared to the increases under the prev i ous Prog ress i ve Cons ervative Government ; in view of the fact that the esti mated loss in revenue by Councillor Yanofsky is deemed to be in the area of $8 million to $10 mill io n, Mr.

Speaker, will th e Minister of Urban Affairs make a commitment to rei mburse the city for this loss, particularly in view of th e willf ul negli gence and delay on the part of the govern ment in deali ng with th is Wei r Report on assessment, and not impose a fu rthe r burden on the taxpayers as they ha ve done during the course of the ir fi rst three years in government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spe aker, I sense, as I' m sure you will recognize, the fact that the Member fo r St .

Norbert is attempti ng to come around with his questions in a slightly different way but certa inly with th e same intent as the Honourable Member for Virden who was que stioning me in respec t to this matt er earlier. I've indicated th a t there will be an announcement at the appropriate time as to any steps that can be taken by th e provi nce in order to assist this problem that is presently confronti ng City Hall. They were conscious 2311

Thutlder, 28 June, 1884 of that. We will be dealing with that. Ap propriate announcements will be made at the appropriate time. Now, M r. Speaker , I think the Honourable Member fo r St. Norbert cannot try to some way or other illicit a different k ind of answer than the one that has already been provided in the Chamber. As sessment Review MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , in view of the will fu l negligence and delay and incompetence on the part of this government in dealing with the Weir Report on assessment ; and in view of the fact that taxes have gone up on an average assessed ho me in the City of Winnipeg nearly four times more than they did over a four-year period under a Con servative Government, will the Min ister of Urban Affairs commit the government to reimbursing the city for this loss which has been caused solely by them, and not impose a further burden on the taxpayers in the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

I would ask the ho nourable member to bear in mind that a question should be for obtaining information and not for mak ing repres entation. The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was going to say I found that question again rather repetitive and I also find it interesting that the member is, as you say, making represe ntation on beha lf of the urban members of our popula tion, and I normally hear them crying for the rural members of our population.

What we are trying to say is that asses sment is a province-wide situation, it's a province-wide problem. lt needs a province-wide solution. That is what my colleague, the Min ister of Municipal Affairs, is work ing on and it is within that statute that the ability to make changes lies. When the report is ready, it will be tabled also when we are ready to move with a decision and have al l the information upon which to mak e a decision, my colleague will be presenting that information. Man itoba Hydro - back charges MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines and it follows upon another report today of the Manitoba Hydro attempting to collect for a previous improper billing due to their error, wrong classification of a building, where they' re attem pting to collect well over $1 ,000, as I understand, from an individual.

My question to the Min ister is, will he have someone in hi s department or will he hi mself ask for an investigation Into Hydro's billing procedu res to find out why there are so many errors and why Hydro insists on collecting improper billings due to their error and adding interest on top? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I've asked that all of these questions of back billings be looked into with a complete and full report, and there are a number of them.

Some of them relate to sales taxes going back ·10 years, some of them relate to meters that were judged to be improper , some of them relate to some other areas. I've asked for a complete report on all cases, so that one could then judge. As I indicated in the House, I cert ainly am not in favour of back billing going back 5-10 years. it's a matter of look ing at what is a sensible policy rather than delving back 10 years. I' m ho ping that report will be done in the near future and then we would act on ·it. Lumber - export of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of ind ustry, Trade and Technology. Over the last year or so there has been considerable concern amongst the lumber producers in the United States about alleged subsidiz ation of the production of lumber in Canada and effo rts have been made to impose tariffs against suc h lumber that would work against the interests of Manfor.

In view of the fact that Manfor is continuing to receive a substantial injection of taxpayers ' money, has the Min ister made any recent direct represen tation to Ottawa with respect to maintaining the status quo relative to the export of lumber to the United States, or indeed ha s he mad e any representation to government in the U.S. on beh alf of the lumber industry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Cultur e. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There have been representations made by the Government of Manitoba with respect to a number of issues related to the fo restry industry.

I would have to get the details of those represen tatio ns, because they were made some time ago, and provide that Information subseq uent to today for the member. Sports Pool MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, M r. Speaker. I have a question for the Mi nister responsible for Lotteries. Could the Minister tell us whet her or not the federal Sports Pool ha s had any significant impact in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Healt h . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is a well­ known fact that the Sports Pool Corporation are having 2312

Thuraday, 21 June, 1984 their problems. I understand that they might have to go to Cabinet for $20 million of the taxpayers' money. I might add though that I received a call from the Minister responsible for Lotteries in the Province of Ontario, and apparently the provinces have been approached through him by the Federal Government who wish, I think, to renegotiate the agreement they've had with the provinces and discontinue their Sports Pool. This is the latest information that I've had. Municipal Hospitals While I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could answer a question that was asked of me and taken as notice by the Minister of Finance on Monday. By the way, I would like to thank the members from both sides of the House for their concern and good wishes for my health expressed on that day. The question was dealing with the Municipal Hospitals, and that question was asked by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. The Municipal Hospitals are owned and run by the City of Winnipeg who have their own board, of course. They are financed by the Manitoba Health Services Commission for both the operating and capital cost. lt is not unusual.

Many of the rural hospitals also are operated and owned by the municipalities. Now as far as the capital program that I announced re the Municipal Hospitals, what we have approved is actually the continuation of the architectural plan for a major redevelopment. While full architectural and engineering studies are not yet complete, it is anticipated that the King Edward Hospital will be demolished; the King George and Princess Elizabeth buildings will be renovated for continued use.

Considerable new space will be required to replace the area due to the demolition and renovation. lt is anticipated that all services and programs presently provided will continue in the redeveloped facilities. A new, specially designed area for respiratory patients will be provided in the new space. Finally, the capital cost will be provided by long-term borrowing with repayment to be made from the operating fund provided by the province. Ene rgy Bus MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Energy and Mines. lt has to do with his Energy Bus that, I understand, is travelling through the province. My question, Mr. Speaker, is that bus on a kind of predetermined schedule, an itinerary, visiting different communities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASJUK: My understanding is that it is on a schedule. I'll certainly take the question as notice and get back to the member with the exact information. MR. H. ENNS: I thank the Minister for that answer. I do request of the Minister a

schedule of the whereabouts of that Energy Bus which would be helpful to some of the communities that could anticipate a visit by the bus and/or other persons that wish to follow up the activities of that bus. I would consider it helpful if the Minister would supply me with that. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I think that's a very good suggestion, and I will see that the Energy Bus does inform the communities ahead of time so that people are aware that the Energy Bus will be there.

I do know that the Energy Bus tends to do its audits on a first-come, first-serve basis in terms of people from various communities contacting the department and asking that audits be done in their area. These are collected so that if a trip is made out to Brandon, for example, or Dauphin or some other area like that, that there are a number of jobs to be carried out so that we use the Energy Bus most efficiently when it's in a rural community. Motor graders in municipalities MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to the Minister of Labour.

Bill 35 is currently before committee, and I would ask her whether or not she is prepared to give any consideration to municipalities who would like to come to a mutual arrangement with their employers, particularly in their motor graders that is now possible, but may not be possible with the passage of Bill 35. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, that's a separate item from what is contained in Bill 35 and it is under discussion with the municipalities for possible amendment in the future. Seine River School Division - segregation MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education, and ask her whether she has any concern about the recent decision of the Seine River School Division in defeating a resolution which called for an end to the segregation of French and English students in the division. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The concern of a Minister is not a proper subject for question period. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would then ask the Minister whether the department has a policy or goal of attempting to teach our children to live together and play together in harmony, and whether this isn't best achieved by intermingling and sharing facilities rather than through separation or isolation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. 2313

Thuredar, 28 June, 1884 Status of Women - UIC benefits MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I also have a quest ion for the Min ister of Education. My question is in regard to the recent decisio n of the Scho ol District of Myste ry Lake in Thompson to stop the practice of hiring ha lf-time te acher s, because of the marginally highe r wage costs related to UIC and other premiums they have to pay. In view of the fact th a t this will preven t many people from

part icip at ing in the work fo rce, and in view of the fact that this will ha ve a

part icularly negative impact on women as indicated by the fact that all the te acher s present ly affected are women . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. S. ASHTON: . . . Mr. Speake r, I do have a question. I have a very short

preamble. I wish the members would give me the chance to provide that

preamble. I would like to ask the Mi nister if she could examine in conjunction with the Mi nister responsible for the St atu s of Women th e present situation in re gard to funding, and also wheth er she could approach the Federal Mi niste r to see if UIC premiums can be changed so they don't discriminate against pa rt-time workers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Educati on. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker , I want to thank the member for both th e question and discussing the issue with me a lit tle ear lier, because I think it is a matte r of fairly ser ious concern.

I want to in dicate to him th at, yes, 1 am prepared to look into it and to follow a number of avenues, wh atever avenues are open to us. One, I think, is to explore with the Federal Govern ment the UIC benefits, because clearly they do presently discriminate against employees who want to open up positions, have more fl exi ble jobs and employ more people. That surely is a goal of theirs and a goal of ours. 1 have also asked Dr.

Nicho lls, when we're looking at th e Ed Fina nce Rev ie w, to provid e me with informati on th a t tells us what the additional costs are to a school divisi on when they are paying out the UIC payments for two people inste ad of one that would ha ve them make such a decision in order to save a bit of money.

I would like to go on record as saying that I think it's important th a t we begi n to educate people about , while th ere might be small financial costs, the re are tremendous benef its to employing two people and to job-sha ring, both to individu als and to the empl oyee. 1 want to share with th e mem ber s of the House the fact that 15 years ago I had the privilege of participatin g in a work-sha ring job in the ho spital, and I tell you th a t they got the most ex per ienced, qualified nurses th a t they would neve r have rece ived if th ey had not ha d th a t job-sharing program.

Child ren's Aid Society - annual meeting MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My quest ion is to the Acti ng Minister of Community Services. Can the Minister tell me if the Inter im Board of the Children' s Aid Socie ty of Winnipeg have had the ir annual meeting? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Atto rney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I will take a five minute adjournment from the House and fi nd out. No, I will take that as notice; I really don't know. MR. A.

BROWN: it is my understa nding that, besides staff, ther e was only two board members present and thre e membe rs from the community. Now tha t is shameful attendance. My question is, can the Mi niste r forward a copy of the repo rt of that mee ting, espec ially the financial report, because it is a multi milllon dol lar organization; and can the Minister tell me if an audit has bee n done of that organiz ation? HON. R. PENNER: I will take th ose quest ions as notice. High Schools - examination results MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I address my question to th e Minister of Education. In view of th e standardized examin ation results observed In Alb erta and Saskatche wan high schools over th e past month, re sults which show disappointing levels of achievement on average for thousands of students, I am wondering if th e Min ister could indicate wheth er she or staff of her department have been In touch with the Depart ments of Education in Alb er ta and British Columbia so as to re view and analyze th ose re sults from a Manitoba perspective? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, I have had discussions with the Min isters In the other jurisdicti ons, not recent ly and not about that

part icular questi on, but I do have a concern . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: Tell us what you did have discussions with . HON. M. HEMPHILL: You got all day? A MEMBER: Everything covers th at. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I do have one other thi ng I would like to say. I have said bef ore, and I am going to continue to say it ever y time the member opposite tries to make statements or tries to ask ques tions rel ate d to something that is ha ppening in anothe r provi nce' s edu cati on system and ask me to address them. We are dealing quite ably with wh at is going on in Manitob a. Please address yourselves to that. 2314

Thul'8dey, 28 June, 1884 . MA. C. MANNESS: Mr. Spea ker, I would love to make a number of stat ement s. I am sure you would rule them all out of order. Mr. Spe a ker, I recei ved my info rmati on fr om a newsle tt er. I am sure the Mi nister of Educati on and her depa rtment would have access to that long befo re I do.

Where as the Minister of Education in Al berta has ha d to upgrade marks so as to prevent a la rge number of students from faili ng, I would li ke to know specifi cally what the Minister of Educati on, what objective measures she is bringing into place in this province to measure th e stan ding an d the achi evemen t of Ma nit oba 's graduates. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Spea ker, I think it's importa nt to say, an d I would n't hav e ti me to give al l the info rmati on necessa ry in question peri od, but I do thi nk it is important to say that there is lots of information coming from many outside groups, organizations and resea rch instit utions that are indicating that Ma nitob a doesn't have th e deficie ncies and th e problems that other provinces do. Othe r provinces that are making those massive changes are doing it to kee p pace with what is going on in Ma nitoba and ha s been fo r yea rs.

We have a very effec tive eva luation system an d we take responsi bility and share it between the provincial government and the school boards, where we measure the courses an d the programs and th e school boards measure and eva luate the students . lt's very successful; we don't need to change it to meet deficie ncies in other systems. Family Life Program in schools MA. C. MANNESS: A final supplemen ta ry, Mr. Spea ker.

In conjunction with the answer ju s t offered by the Minister, can she tell me from where th e material came that she is now using, as piloti ng material, in th e sex education aspect of th e he a lth curriculum? Fr om where did that curriculum come? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Fi rst of al l, Mr. Spea ker , the

section that he is talking ab out is a Family Life unit, not a unit that contains a unit on sex educati on. Second ly, I want to go on record as saying we will take good curric ulum an d good id eas an d good programs from anywhere. I mea n, we do not have to in vent the wheel ourselves in Ma nitob a. We are using as a base for developi ng Ma nitoba 's curriculum th e Calga ry material . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. M. HEMPHILL: . . . beca use th ere are many good fe at ures in th e Calga ry curriculum. However, Mr. Speaker, they are not good enough for Manitoba.

There are some good parts to it and we are going to take the good parts and use th em, but we are going to delete some that we don't like. We are going to add some parts that aren't there and we are going to revi se. In the end, we are going to have one of the best curriculums in the count ry. Burns Plant closure MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MA. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. I have a ques ti on fo r th e Mi niste r of Indus tr y, Trade an d Technolo gy.

Some time ago the Minister committed to do what he could, and his government, there was a commit ment to disal low or to do something to stop the cl osing of th e Burns plant in Brandon. Mr. Spea ker , ha s the Minister been ab le to dela y or to divert the closure of that plant where some 15 0 people will be laid off? MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Cultu re. HON. E. KOSTRYA: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. We are continuing to work to tr y to avert that closure but at the present ti me, there is no fu rthe r update to provide. Su rface Ri ghts Board - firings MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Spea ker, a question to the Mi nister of Energy. During his Esti mates, Mr. Spea ker , he indicated th ere would be a deci sion brought down by the Court of Ap peal dea ling with Kather ine An gel who was charged to have been in a conflict of int erest in her sitting on the Surface Rights Board; has that deci sion been brought down yet ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Mi nister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: I haven't bee n informed of that , Mr. Speaker, but I will certainly check into it . As far as I can te ll, it hasn't . MR. J. DOWNEY: As well, Mr.

Spea ker, the Minister indicated that he fired three people off the Surface Rights Board to speed up the activities of the board an d to give a better service. Can th e Mi niste r In dicate now how many meet ings they have had since th e fi ring of th ose people ; and as well, could he indicate what public notice does the board give, and are the public al lowed to sit in and he ar the board make the ir decisions at the he arings? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Spea ker, I quite cle arly in dicated that we had not fired th ose th ree people from the board.

I tha nked them for the ir se rvice and I was quite surprised that the Member for Arthur would say that we had fired them; in fact, we in dicated that we are reducing the size of the board, we are expedit ing it's processes. My understa nding is that th ey have scheduled mee tings that are under way. I certainly will check on the notices given. I know that the Member for Arthur in my Esti mates ha d asked questions as to the number of mee ti ngs. He in dicated that they had not ha d meetings since January of 1984.

In checki ng into that I found that was not so, that the y had quite a few mee tings since January of 1984. I can get the speci fics on that and ta ble that, Mr. Speaker . 2315

Thursday, 28 June, 1984 Waterfowl hunting sea son - dates and times MR. SPEA KER: The Honour ab le Mem ber fo r Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister respo nsible fo r Natural Resources. I wonder if he has finalized the dates and the ti mes for the waterf owl hu nting season for this fall? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, there are proposed dates. They ha ven't bee n confirmed finally yet , but certa inly I've had mee tings with staff and we are looking at specific dates for those seaso ns. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister might confirm if th ey' re considering mornings-only hu nting for ducks, not alone geese, but for th e duck populati on this year. HON. A. MACKLING: There are a number of proposals that would affe ct th e sports hunting in the provi nce, and I don't want to deal with them piecemeal. Ce rtainly there wer e arguments, strong views, made to me at many of the meeti ngs I he ld throughout Manit oba urging a consider ation fo r some of th ose th ings.

I must say a good many of the obser vations th a t were made at th ose meet ings seem to make a good deal of sense and, I believe, that a number of them are reflect ed in the proposals that we will bringing forward. MR. D. BLAKE: A final suplem ent ary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Min ister is considerin g a morn ing-only hu nting season for ducks, if he would give a certa i n amount of lead time that th ose outfitters th a t are in the business would have sufficient time to let the ir client s know of the seas ons and the dates because the re are quite a number now that have ta ken deposit s for the fall hunting season and it's going to create some problems, not only for the tourists that come up to enjoy it, but for those th a t are responsi ble for ho ldi ng those deposits for paid hu nting tr ips. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, we ce rt a inly will consid er doi ng every th ing we can to give notice. However, it's ver y difficult to make changes in th ese seasons with out affecting some people, - (Inte rject ion) - and the ducks, of course. I cer ta inly sympathize with the concer ns. I've already met with some people in the industry, and they are quite concerned about some of the proposed changes, and I cert ainly understand and sympathize with that , but th ere are going to be some decisions made that will affect th e industry and we trust we will have th eir co-operati on. Rail way crossings - saf ety of MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Mi niste r of Educatio n. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Honourable Mi nister of Education, whil e the upgrading of the CNR and the CPR Rail system is under way all across this province, what in put does she or the government have into the safe ty at railway crossings for school buses and students that are utilizing these crossings while these rail systems are being upgraded in our province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I' m not sure wh at th e answer is to that questi on. I' ll ta ke it as notice and provide info rmati on fo r the member. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Honourable Min ister if she would be prepared to set up a set of guidelines fo r local guardians or parent s of studen ts or bus drivers or the school divisions as to wh at proced ure they might take to let their concerns be known to the Department of Transport on these crossings? A number of them are cons idered to be dangerous for the school buses and th e students that are riding th ose buses. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Speak er, I thin k I'm prepared to say that if - and I mig'l t get some more informati on late r from the member -if this Is an issue and it conce rns th e safety of student s, I'm certainly willing to look at it. Doctors - refugee status MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fo rt Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question Is to the Honourable Minister of Heal th.

I would like to ask him what the policy of his depa rt ment is with re spect to ref ugee doct ors in Manito ba; wheth er , in fact, there is going to be support for a program th a t would enable some of them to achieve re cognition that would provide for licence he re and practice in this province, and whet he r, in fact, th ere are steps bei ng taken to ensure th a t the re is not a he avy influx of refugee doctors. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Healt h . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the second part of the quest ion would indicate that the member knows the problem and the danger.

Of course, the licensing is done by the College of Physicians and Surgeons who insist on cert ain examinati ons. Now, as far as we provided this year so many resid ent s, and we' ve asked th e university and the ho spitals to take so many of these re sidents to help some of th ese refugees. As we know, th ere is a surplus of doctors in certain cent res, especially th e GPs, in certain cent res and it is ver y difficult to have people go in the area where they might be needed th e most, in the rural part of the province and also in the North .

If they do, they stay a very short ti me and then they' re back in the city in many instances. Now, also we do not want infe rior teach ers and certainly not at the expe nse of our Canadians and 2316

Thurade� 28 June, 1984 Manitoban doctors also or student doctors. This is something that we're looking at, we're providing for it, but we're very careful and very aware of the possibility of having an influx of people from other countries, and certainly a shortage of Canadian and Manitoban boys and girls who are ready to take Medicine. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, given the fact that internship positions in Manitoba have been limited in recent years, and with some good reason, Mr.

Speaker; and given the fact that there is recognition on both sides of the House that an unacceptable influx would create great difficulties, is the Minister saying that those 10 or 12 refugee doctors, who are firmly established as Manitoba residents, will be supported by a provincial program that will permit them to serve their internships and become properly qualified? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm certainly not saying that 10 or 12, that's not what I'm saying at all, it might be more than 2 or 3.

I'm talking about the future, I'm not talking about those that are in the system now because this is a question of its own that concern us, the question of residents. Every resident, especially if you have a surplus of doctors, and every resident that you have is quite costly and is costing the Manitoba Health Services Commission an awful lot of money also. So certainly, there's nothing like the 10 and 12. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Aiel. MRS. D. DODICK: I have a Committee change, Mr.

Speaker, on Statutory Regulations and Orders, the Member for Concordia substituting for the Member for Brandon East; and Ellice for Lac du Bonnet. On In dustrial Rel ations, the Member for The Pas substituting for the Member for lnterlake. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to make some Committee changes: Mr. Filmon to be replaced by Mr. Mercier; and Mr. Nordman to be replaced by Mr. Sherman on Statutory Regulations and Orders. The first Committee being Ind ustrial Relations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, before moving that we go into Committee, I would like to advise the House that it would be the intention to deal with the remaining Main Supply items and, also, with the Capital Supp ly. The Estimates, I think that we had started Manitoba Jobs Fund, continue with that, and then Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote, Emergency Interest Rate, and Flood Control Emergency Expenditures. Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Jobs Fund. SUPPLY - JOBS FUND MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Manitoba Jobs Fund, Item 1. (a)(1). The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. SLAKE: I'm getting ready, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: When we last met on this item there was a question raised to me by the Member for Lakeside. I said I would provide some specific figures for him on the information and advertising expenditures. They are as follows: $693,000 for media placement which was time and space; $327,000 for production costs; $13 0,000 for signs and collator material; $20,000 for public relation fees; and $60,00 0 for market research . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if this Is the appropriate time to ask the question I'm planning to. If it isn't I'm sure the Minister will tell me.

I'd like to ask whether or not the new Community Assets Program as annou nced a month or two ago - whether it falls under this area. Does it? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. C. MANNESS: I'm wondering if the Minister could provide for us some of the detailed application forms, maybe he has, I haven't had any fall into my possession, because I have constituents who have heard about this particular program but yet haven't been able to find any information directly, or has this information been filed at municipal offices? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, I believe copies were given I know by the Minister directly responsible, the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security, to the Member for Gladstone. Copies have been mailed out, or are in the process of being mailed out, to all municipalities in the province, to all community organizations that are on the mailing list, and I know that's fairly extensive from my involvement this year.

I'll send a copy over for the member and if he wishes additional copies, we can provide them for him, plus they're available through all the regional offices of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security, through their Employment Services offices in 2317

Th-..raday, 28 June, 1981 various regions of the province. I'll send a copy over and if he wishes more we can provide more, but they are in the process of being mailed out. MR. C. MANNESS: Can the Min ister tell me when the dead line is for applic ation, and probably more important ly, what criteria will be used for selecting between the various applicants? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The deadline for applications is to the end of August 31, 1984. I could read into the record all of the criteria. lt's all spelled out in the application and I'll send it over for him. There's two major categories.

One is for community organizations which can apply for grants up to 50 percent of the total project costs to a maximum of $75,000 per project. There is provision for grants above that in exceptional circumstances. There is a municipal component that is available for specific projects in the area of bridge replacement and for fire hall replacement, but all that is in here and I'll send it over. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. SLAKE: Mr. Chairman, just while we're on that, the Mi nister might be able to give me a little more information. The application forms have arrived.

I know one from my community has been filled in and delivered personally to the Min ister resp onsible. But could he give me some idea of the time frame that's going to be required to make decisions on them, because in the particular case that I refer to, the tenders have been let and they have until the 15 th of July, I believe, to accept the tend er. Now they may be able to get a small extent ion on tha t tender if they could have some indication of whether their application was going to be approved or not. I realize that may depend on the number of applications you get. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: As I indicated the deadline for applications was the end of August. We would expect that we can, as we get into summer a bit, get into some approval so we can take advantage of what we hope will be a good summer. That would be dependent on the volume of applications. Last year we were a bit slower in gett ing the program moving -it was the first year mind you -but there was such an overwhel ming number of applications. But I would expect before too long into the summer that there will be some application approvals being granted. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1. (a)( 1) -the Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: Yes, I had some questions in regard to the Youth Programs. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to raise it at this time or when there's another item which might be more appropriate? Just briefly, Mr. Chairman, I know it's an area of concern generally to many people given the fact that youth unemplo yment has tended to be far higher than the unemplo yment rate of the population as a whole.

Particular concern has been th at unemployment appears to be structural in a sense that even given as the recent improvement in the overall economy there seems to be a tendancy for the youth unemployment rate to remain rather high. I'd like to ask the Min ister what thrust there will be?

What he anticipates in terms of youth unempl oyment and also whether there might be consideration of making a more broad thrust which would go beyond traditional government programs, to encourage some o� the rather innovative schemes that have been developed in other jurisdictions, particularly in Europe, with labour and management coming up with agreements tha t encourage such th ings as early retirement, flexible work arrangements, combinations of training and employment programs, and other things which do attempt to deal with the structural nature of the problem. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: As the member may be aware there has been one approved announced project to date with respect to youth and that was Careerstart '84. There is a number of other programs that are being reviewed right at the present time in terms of youth, particularly lookin g at a program th at was very successful last year, one which was a bit of a pilot project last year, the Engineering Graduate Students Program, where the Jobs Fund in concert with private sect or assisted graduates from the engineering faculty.

Right at the present time the Min ister responsi ble for this segment of the Jobs Fund activity is reviewing a number of programs to expand that kind of program so that we can facilitate help, students coming out of our colleges and university to break into the job market; because we have a rather difficult situation right now with respect to youth unemployment and it's caused in part, not totally but in part, due to the fact that because of the large levels of unemplo yment we've had generally -and that is now decreas ing -that employers are looking for people with greater experience because a good number of them are on the job market and there's also some migration into the province.

So those two factors compound the problem for people coming right out of school, out of university or colleges, because they don't have the kind of experience that other people in the job market may have. So we're looking at programs to assist in that transition from the schools, universities, colleges, into the workp laces. I would expect within the next short while to have some specific projects in that regard. I might also add that the Northern Youth Core Program was expanded this year for our youth in our Northern remote communities. MR. S.

ASHTON: I'm wondering in particular whether we might not look at consulting with both business and labour. I know in my own area, we had a situation recently where both lnco and the union seemed to agree that there was a need to restrict overtime and, if at all possible, to encou rage further employment. I think general attitudes seem to be changing in that regard. People are looking more and more seriously at the need to get over these structural problems and get young people involved in the system, because of the severe impediments they do face in terms of lack of experience.

I'm wondering if we might not be looking at some direct consultation with business and labour, even 2318

Thureday, 28 June, 1984 encouraging individual unions and companies to bring in provisions in their collective agreements to encourage early retirement, perhaps combined with bringing in young people to the work force, because that might be an additional way of getting young people involved in the workforce. HON. E. KOSTYRA: This is a bit out of range of the issue before us. Those issues might be better addressed to the Minister of Labour, though I would add that there is a consultative process in place with labour and business under the stew ardship of the Minister of Busine ss Development and Tourism.

I'm sure he would be willing to raise that issue with that consultative group. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we'd had an opportunity when last this committee sat to deal for some period with the Jobs Fund. The Minister did give us some additional information with respect to staff. lt would be our intention to move this item along, and get into the questions of Emergency Interest Rate Relief and Flood Control Emergency Expenditures part of the Estimates and then of course, deal with the Capital Supply Motion at this same committee. Mr.

Chairman, unless other colleagues have further comments to make with respect to the Manitoba Jobs Fund, I am prepared to allow this item to pass. Pardon me. My colleague, the Member for Turtle Mountain, wishes to . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: I would just like to ask a fairly general question here, Mr. Chairman. I note as I walk back and forth from my apartment on Kennedy Street to the building here that the boulevards are not being cut. The brome grass is out in head.

Next year, when this dies, I'm sure they are going to have a prairie fire problem in the city, nevertheless, very unsightly. The work's not being done, as I understand it, because the city doesn't have the funds to do it. I'm wondering whether, in principle, it would not be better for that type of work to be paying a wage that's perhaps two-thirds or one-half of what is being paid now. I un dersta nd that people are being paid $9 to $11, that sort of thing, to mow grass. Now I know, my own son is emplo yed on a project with the University of Manitoba. They're paying $5.75 an hour.

I know that a lot of people who work for that are extremely happy to have that employment. lt seems to me that in this sort of situation, things are getting simply out of proportion. We could have those boulevards mowed. We could have more people working and earning some job experience if the wage structure wasn't so high. I know this isn't specifically related to this situation, but does the Minister care to offer any kind of comment on that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Even though it's not related to the item before us, I'm willing to offer comment on that.

The specific situation that the member raises is being add ressed by, as I understand it, the City of Winnipeg Council. it's their res ponsibility, and they have rec ently decided that they are going to employ people to do that work so that the boulevards aren't unsightly in the inner city or what was the former City of Winnipeg prior to un ification.

If there is any concern with respect to the wage that is paid for that work, that is something that the city decides either if it's some thing that is covered through their collective agreement in concert with the union or if it's outside of the collective agreement, I presume the city would set the rate as they see fit, provided it is apt or exceeds the minimum wage laws in the province. MR. B. RANSOM: Does the province have anybody hired to cut the grass on the boulevard in the front on the province's property?

The Minister gestures as though this is a silly question. - (I nterject ion) - My colleague says the thing is a mess. Ye s, it is a mess. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honour able Minister of Culture on a point of order. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I did not make a gesture, Mr. Chairman, that I thought the question was silly. I was making a gesture, how do I kno w? I don't have responsibil ity for Government Services . A MEMBER: Ask Pete, your colleague. HON. E. KOSTYRA: . . . that was a gesture. I was not making light of his question.

If he likes, I will take that question as notice and find out from the Minister of Government Services whether or not we have people emplo yed to do that function. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Cha irman, the Min ister of Government Services is here and, I believe under the Jobs Fund before, there have been other Ministers answer questions. My question would be, is the government acce pting the respo nsibility, first of all, for cutting the grass on boulevards in front on the provincial property?

If they are, are they hiring people under the Jobs Fund to do that, because some of it looks like it hasn't been cut for a long time? it's very insightly. In fact, I even wonder about the grounds of the building, how often they are being cut, and whether the Minister has got some Careerstart people working on that sort of thing, creating some jobs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Government Services. A MEMBER: Just walk around it. The place looks terrible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Minister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I believe that the grounds have been very well kept. In the last couple of weeks, we've had some problems with excessive rain. We have had to use pumps to pump out some of the lawns around the Legislature, particularly at Government House. We have had to pump water from the grounds itself. I believe, as late 2319

Thursday, 28 June, 1984 as yesterday or the day before, there was still water on the east side of the building where the bushe s are seeded. Specifically res ponding to Kennedy Street, I believe the Member for Turtle Mountain was inquiring about the maintenance of the Kennedy Street boulevard. Kennedy Street is, of course, a city street; we maintain Memorial Boulevard which is a provincial boulevard. That is maintained by the province. I believe the member is asking whether or not we should take over from the city the maintenance of the boulevard where it fronts on government property.

Maybe we should be looking at that. I could take that as notice and review it. We do have people hired; we have students hired during the summer months within the greenhouse and to work on the lawn; there are three, I believe. I would have to verify that, but I believe there are three summer students that are working this year. Some are working as part of their studies. There are one or two that are working as part of their training in their studies. So I would take that as notice and review it, and see whether or not we should be taking over the boulevards, at least, around the government facilities. MR. B.

RANSOM: I would like to know from the Minister how much they're paying the students who are working to cut the grass here. I would just like to say to the Minister that I like to feel proud of the grounds around here and the general area because when I go to Victoria or to Toronto and go to the legislative grounds in other provinces, they always look clean and manicured, something that people can be proud of. I must say to the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, that if you take a walk out right now and walk around the grounds on this Legislature, you will find that the grass is six inches tall, there are weeds on the grounds of this Legislature that are, without a word, five feet tall and there is garbage through the trees, through the shrubs, and yet the government is talking about creating employment. People are unemployed. Why can't he just look after the grounds a little better and he might employ one or two people to do it at a rea sonable wage rate? HON. A.

ADAM: I just answered a previous que stion that there were one or two students that are working here as part of their studies. They take on-the-job training and they are working here. As far as the rate pay scale, I will have to take that as notice. I don't particularly look at the rate of pay for summer students. 11 would be the regular pay that is established through the students hiring program or Careerstart, or whatever it is, from the Minister of income and security. But I will take that question as notice if he wishes, and also take under advisement his complaints about the grounds.

We have had complaints from mem bers opposite about pigeons, but this is the first time, Mr. Chairman, that we have had anybody talk about the grass. I think that the grounds are reasonably well kept, considering the amount of rain that we have had in the last while. When I came out this morning there was a stack of grass piled up ready to be removed here, about this high. So the work is ongoing and I am sure that we have some of the best gardeners available anywhere and I think they know more about handling the lawns than I do, and probably the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B.

RANSOM: Will the Minister agree to come with me, right now, and we will go out and we will have a look at the grounds and I will point out to him what I mean, that these grounds are not some thing that Manitobans could be proud of; will he do that? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, for the third time, I said I would review his comments. He said, would you look after the boulevards and see whether we should cut the grass? For the third time, I said I will take it under advisement. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)( 1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: Just prior to that but on a similar subject and, really, I would ask the Minister to take note of some of the comments that were made in this Chamber on Bill 35, and I am seriously reco mmending to the Minister resp onsible for the Jobs Fund, crea ting jobs, particularly in that category of young people - 18 to 24, 16 to 25 - where we have admitted ly, and that's the problem that we have, it's not germane to this province; it's a problem that we have across this country.

Some of the comments that my colleague, the Member for La Verendrye put on the record earlier in a question period, the difficulties of where an employer had received authorization for a Careerstart Program, was going to hire the youngster at what I consider, and I think what the Minister would consider, to be a reaso nable rate of pay for a student - $6.50, $7.00 an hour cannot be called unfair wages - but then find thems elves trapped in the bureaucracy of the Department of Labour that calls for that particular job to pay $1 3.50 or $1 4.00 an hour.

I think he should, to gain a greater measure of success through his program and quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, to get a better bang out of the bucks that he's got, the $40 million or $50 million that we are passing now. I address the First Minister, we have a problem in this area in terms of providing jobs for youngsters, for students, at what I am sure would be accep table wages, anywhere from $5, $6, $7, $8 an hour . A MEMBER: Minimum. MR. H. ENNS: We are not talking minimum wages even. A MEMBER: Why not? MR. H.

ENNS: I think the Minister has a unique opportunity to be able to come to us, when next we meet a year from now, and say that because of some persuasion on his part with his colleague the Minister of Labour, because of some flexibility on the part of his administrators with respect to the Jobs Fund, he has been able to employ 2,000 or 3,000 extra students. Mr. Chairman, that's really all that I have to say and I am prepared to pass his Estimates on this item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)( 1)-p ass; 1. (a)(2)-pass; 1. (b)( 1) -pa ss; 1. (b)(2)- pass; 1. (c)(1) -pass; 1. (c)(2)­ pass. 2320

Thuraday, 28 June, 1884 Resolution No. 146: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $91 ,200,000 for the Manitoba Jobs Fund for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1985-p ass. SUPPLY - CANADA-MANITOBA ENABLING VOTE MR. CHAIRMAN: The Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote - Item 1. (a) - Mr. Min ister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: First, just by way of explanation, this is similar to what has been in place for the last number of years. lt contains amounts that are equal to only 20 percent of the total projected expenditur es.

The remaining 80 percent is identified in the printed Expenditure Estimates of those departments affected by the 10 agreements that are listed in the Enabling Vote. The listing of those are as in the Estimates. That's about all I need to give by way of general explanation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of concerns in this area. I know that under the Enabling Vote, the Value-Added Crops Production Agreement, under our government when we signed the agreement, there were some fairly major drainage projects that were included . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

The Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: I beg your indu lgence to intrude. Yes, it is on a point of order. I simply ask, perhaps, the Min ister responsible that we can deal with these items reasonably expeditiously if we could have one or two specific Ministers available to us. I don't know if the Min ister of Agricultur e is avail able. We are now obviously wanting to talk about specific agricultural programs. This is an all encompassing vote - Tourism, Indus trial Development - we have the Minister of Energy here. So I am just suggesting to you, Mr.

Chairman, that it would be helpful if we had, for the consideration of these Estimates, a few more Ministers available to us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Cultur e. HON. E. KOSTYRA: In response to the concern from the Member for Lakeside, we have asked to get the Min ister of Agriculture. I would just remind the members, I don't think it needs reminding, but this only represents 20 percent of the vote. The 80 percent is in the departmental Estimates and I would presume would have been dealt with at that time, but we will endeavour to get whatever other Min isters are available here to answer any questions.

On some of the other items, I might be able to provide some information even with the lack of the particular Min ister here, but I am afraid on this one I would not be able to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to just point out - I can put it on the record - I would like the Minister here, however, he can read it and respond back because the question can be answered shortly if he gets the information. The point I want to make is, the question is that there were funds available during our term of office to do some drainage projects.

Since our Estimates have gone through, we've seen excessive rains and we have seen a lot of difficulty develop in some of the different communities. I know particularly of one in the Minister's own constituenc y, this may be not have been within the Enabling Vote, but I know that there were some drainage projects that were. I just asked him, for example, if Camper Drain in the Ashern area was one of the projects that was started under the federal-provincial agreement.

If not, it probably could have been a provincial-only project that had been started or the land purchased und er, and that's the answer that I would like. I know that it was cut out during the first year of office of this particular government. Will all the projects that were started under this Enabling Vote, particularly dealing with drainage, be completed? Again, the Minister can get back with that information to me. I do make special reference to the one on the Camper Drain that I've had calls on that was frozen by this government and if, in fact, it was.

I want to know why it was frozen and why it wasn't carried out because it was federal-provincial money. The Minister can respond when he has a chance to look at the Hansard. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I will bring those questions to the attention of the Minister as soon as possible and ask that he reply In the House if the House is still sitting, if not, in writing to the member. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister can remind me - I should probably know as a former member of Treasury Board - we're dealing with the total resolution here of some $11 ,243,5 00.00. Is my und erstanding correct? Does this voted authority have to be granted every year? My question really is, do these funds lapse? In other words, if the 20 percent that this encompasses is not dedicated, is not spent, does the Minister of Finance, as is the usual wont of Ministers of Finance at the end of a fiscal year, lapse these funds and they then have to be revoted In each succeeding year? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, they do indeed lapse and have to be revoted if there's a need for them in a subsequent year. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, the purpose of my question is, to the Minister's knowledge can he indicate or give us any general impr ession of the stage of government planning with respect to these programs - I'm taking them in toto - does he feel reasonably optimistic that the bulk of the $11 ,243,5 00 will be expended in this year's programming? 2321

Thursday, 28 June, 1984 HON. E. KOSTYRA: Ye s, I would think that close to that figure will be expended, particularly in view of the process we went through in Estimates. The other factor is that most of these agreements are ongoing agreements. There are only a small number that are new or renewed agreements, so they are programs that are in their latter phases or middle phases so they are, In essence, worked up at a level that would see expenditur es flowing on a fairly extensive basis and probably very close to the total amount.

I think that the mem ber also has to remember that the first call on the expendit ures is those which are contained In the department and once those are expended, then the call is on the Enabling Vote. So, in some cases, this has a higher lapsing factor than departmental Estimates. MR. H. ENNS: We ll, Mr. Chairman, I think it's becoming obvious to the Minister that with his permission, we're dealing with the subject matter as one expropriation and we'll ask some general questions with the eight or nine items covered under this resol ution. I have a particular question - perhaps my colleague from St.

Norbert may wish to deal with more extensively - and that has to do with the Winnipeg Core Area Development Agreement. Mr. Chairman, we have noted, of course, the leaving of the Manager of the Winnipeg Core Area Development Agreement. I would seek from the Minister some report as to the status, if you like - again in a general way - of the Winnipeg Core Area Agreement. Is there a problem there that needs addressing?

I say this with the knowledge and experience, that in some of these instances programs are started with all due enthusiasm, the co-operat ion of the different jurisdictions involved, in this case the Government of Canada, the Goverment of Manitoba and the City Government. However, in its second or third or fourth year of the program, it tends to bog down and the desired results are not always achieved. The Minister is fully familiar with the urban area of the City of Winnipeg. I would look to him for some comments with respect to the Winnipeg Core Area Agreement. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I think it's probably indicative of the stage that agreement Is in with the Estimates that are before us. You will note there is a significant increase in the Enabling Vote in this area, some $736,000 or 30 percent increase, and that's because the amount of activity and the amount of money flowing under that agreement has increased. That agreement was a five­ year agreement and did not specifically outline the amounts of money that would flow each year. lt was based on how the projects were moving.

As 1 understand the present status of the Core Area Initiative Agreem ent, most programs are under way - (Interj ection) - Mr. Chairman, do you want to rule on exhibits in the Chamber? Most of the programs are m pla ce and operat ing. I think the departure, as I un derstand it again, of the core area manager was not related to the success or perceived lack of success of the program due to the fact that he had another opportunity elsewhere that he wanted to pu rsue in his career. So, I think it is moving along and many of the projects are being implemented, most of them are. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the task force that just had a tour of the grounds to determine what's happening out there, you can see that I was unde rstating the case when I said that some weeds were five feet high. Actually, there are some that a�s at least six. We determined that they seemed to be somewhat understaffed , but they are working for a very reas onable wage, about $4 an hour, and we're told that he is actually working last year for $80 a month less than he was working the year before.

He says if he stays here long enough, he'll be working for nothing. MR. H. ENNS: I thal"!k my colleague for taking hold of the situation with respect to the grounds of this building and I trust the Minister will be duly motivated to take the necessary action. Coming back to the Enabling Vote, Mr. Chairman, that we are curren tly consideri ng. it's my unders tanding - I appreciate the Minister of Agriculture's not being present - that the special ARDA Agreement that's still listed in this appropriation is primarily or if not totally directed to the Native communities and/or the Metis Federat ion of Manitoba.

Can somebody confirm that that is the case? If not, I would like to be apprised of what other special ARDA programs are available to Manitobans and the nature of them? My understan ding is that the special ARDA programs currently still in use in Manitoba apply specifically to the Metis Federation and to perhaps people of Native background. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Co-operative Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Ye s, I'm speak ing mostly, Mr. Chairperson, from recollection of what the agreement was when I had respon sibility for the portfolio of Northern Affairs.

I understand that a new agreement has been recently signed and it is my impression that it is on the same basis that it was previously, but I could stand corrected in that I haven't seen the new agreement and I'm speaking personally as to what is contained within it, but that is my understan ding. lt is directed toward employment in Northern communi ties, and certainly there is a high population of Native ancestry in those communi ties, but it is not restricted to those of Native ancest ry, although I would imagine, as a matter of fact I can say fairly well for certai n, that the largest percentage of those, and a very large percentage, a significant majority, are of Native ancest ry, those who are participating in the program. lt is not directed toward any one organization, such as, the Manitoba Metis Federation or the Manitoba Keewat inowi Okemakanac, the MKO, but in fact does involve indi viduals who might belong to those organizations as part of their other activities.

Certainly 1 don't think that it is directed exclusiv ely to them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Chairman of the Treasury Board's comments. I would simply put on the record , and ask him, I'm sure he agrees that 2322

Thureclay, 28 June, 1984 the program ought not to be exclusive, because in situations or in regions of the province where these kinds of programs have application, although perhaps by far the majority of them may be directed at the Metis community or the Native commun ity, there are always others in that community that find thems elves under similar circumstances that require the assistance of a Special ARDA Program. I understand, some of that assistance is in Housing, for instance, in the Northern commu nities; that ought to be the case.

I simply put on the record, the Minister could not tell me definitively whether or not the programs are exclusively directed to Metis and Indian communities. If the Minister wishes to take that as notice, or if he can tell me now that is not the case, I'd be happy. HON. J. COWAN: Actually I believe the program is directed toward economic development in regions where disparate conditions exist.

In this particular instance, and it's similar to the ARDA programs that are available in other jurisdictions, in other provinces, but in this particular instance it's directed toward Northern Native communi ties for the most part, remote communities, of which the substantial percentage of residents are of Native ancestr y, but there are those who live within those communities who are not of Native ances try, and I would not know at present why they would not be able to participate in the program if they met the other criteria.

So I think I can fairly definitively say that it is not exclusive to those of Native ancestry, but it certainly is targeted to assist those in those communi ties who are primarily of Native ancestry in the development of economic opportunities that had not previously existed for them. For that reaso n, I recommend the program to the mem bers opposite. I know that, when they were in government, they involved themselves in administering the program and developing the program and entering into the negotiations on that program. So they, too, at that time must have felt that it was providing a fair service.

I don't believe that there have been major changes in the way in which it is operated or organized in the past four years. MR. H. ENNS: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1. (

a) to 1. (

k) were each read and passed ). Resolution No. 14 3: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 1 ,243,500 for the Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1985-p ass. SUPPLY - EMERGENCY INTEREST RATE RELIEF MR. CHAIRMAN: Emergency In terest Rate Relief Program, Item 1. - the Memb er for Arthur. MR. J. DOW NEY: Mr. Chairman, I have a question or two of the Minister, particularly when they have made so much to-do about the support under the Interest Rate Relief. I'm extremely concerned again about, Mr.

Chairman, the report s that have come out about the increase in bankruptcies in Manitoba agriculture for the first quarter of this year being up well over 50 percent. I would say, is evidence, that the Interest Rate Relief Program is not working, that the policies of this government are not working. We are now see ing, Mr. Chairman, the lowering of grain prices by the Canadian Wheat Board, the first of the year; we are now seeing the lowering of other grain prices that the farmers are dependent upon; we are see ing the closing of a packing house industry in Manitoba that would give some market stability .

We are in a strike with some of the major packing houses, and on the verge of a strike for some of the packing house industry which will have an impact, or could have an impact on the markets that are available for the agricultural community. We are see ing a very real threat, Mr. Chairman, of an increase of interest rates again to our users of capital within the farm commun ity. I'm sorry to say, Mr. Chairman, it's not a very bright picture, not a very bright picture at all. The record of this government is there. The clouds on the horizon are extremely dark for anyone that's in that particular industry.

I ask the Minister if he is going to make any major changes, or has he got any other policies that he'll be introducing, to use this particular capital to stop the continued erosion, the continued bankruptcies that are taking place within the farm community because evidently the programs, the actions that he has taken, and he is so proud of patting himself on the back about, aren't working. I throw the question at the Minister. I would hope that he could give us some kind of commitment that he would take a hold of it in a major way.

As I told him recently, there is a Ministers of Agriculture meeting coming up this next month in Winnipeg and I'm sure that it is contingent upon him to bring before this national meeting the real issue of agriculture, and deal with it with his counterparts from other provinces. Hopeful ly, there is someone going to be placed at the national level that has a little better understan ding of some of the problems of the farmers.

The combination of the present Minister of Agriculture and the one we have, both in Ottawa and Manitoba, leaves the farmers in this province pretty hard pressed A MEMBER: We haven't one in Ottawa right now. MR. J. DOWNEY: . . . that's right, we have none in Ottawa. I would hope, and the question is very direct. Has the Minister any other programs? Has he got any ideas as to how this whole thing can be turned around, because the programs he has have failed? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, you know the me"Tlber quotes selectively - and I want to deal with the selectivity of the statistics that he uses for the first quarter on bankruptcies of this year - just add another month, Mr. Chairman, to those statistics in comparing Manitoba with Saskatchewan and Alberta, and they're turning right around. lt is a sad commentary on our entire economy and our entire national situation in this country. 2323

Thuraday. 28 June, 1984 I think the first thing that really should happen, Mr. Chairman - and I see the National Conservative Party has finally done an about-turn on the whole question of interest rates - I wish that the provincial Tories would have done that when they were in office. They are now condemning the Canadian policy of raising interest rates in this country to an all-time high - to do what? - to protect the Canadian dollar. Mr. Chairman, we are protecting the Canadian dollar. We can protect it to the point where many of us will all be bankrupt, and that is a bankrupt policy, Mr.

Chairman. lt is a policy of supporting high interest rates that those members opposite now in this Chamber are saying, it's a bad policy. I am very pleased, Sir, that they have now changed their minds and realize that a high interest rate policy is bad for this country, is bad for everyone in the economy from the farmers down through all the workers. I want to give the honourable member some statistics. Ye s, Mr. Chairman, Jan uary to May,'83 over'84. Mani tob a'84 statistics, 30 bankru ptcie s;'83, 24 banktuptcies, a 25 percent increase. Saskatchew an'84, 25;'83, 18, a 39 percent increase.

A MEMBER: How can you justify bank ruptcies? HON. B. UAUSKI: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I'm not justifying anything. I'm only pointing out the selectivity with which the honourable member is using those statistics. Alberta 33 in'84; 19 in'83 - a 74 percent increase in bankru ptcies. I'm just pointing out that the problem goes far beyond the Manitoba borders, and goes far beyond the last two years, Sir. Mr.

Chairman, is there a failure In the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan with the increases of 39 percent in bankru ptcies, and Alberta an increase of 74 percent in bankru ptcies tor the same period that Manitoba's bankrup tcies were 25 percent? Mr. Chairman, we should be pressing the Federal Government for fundamental changes in the We stern Grain Stabilization Plan so that there's individual income support tar beyond the miniscule changes that they're making now for political purposes to have a payout to We stern Canada.

Those fundamental changes should have been made years ago as were recommended by my colleague, the former Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Te chnology . We will be reviewing our programming but, Sir, $14 million of interest rate relief to home-owners, small busine sses and farmers is no small amount.

You can just imagine the amount of bankruptcy that there would have been had there not been the kind of financial support that this program has assisted. lt has assisted us in workin g out other programs with the farm community to try and give them the advice and the expertise and the renegotia tions - many of whom we've assisted in renegotiating their finances with institutions to try and get them through a very difficult period of time. But I agree with the way the interest rates are climbing now, Mr. Chairman, we are very concerned and we will have to re-ev aluate all our programs.

But to suggest that this program was of no meaning, flies in the face of all the assistance that was provided, much of which was in his own constituenc y, after telling us that there are no such farmers in Manitoba, that no one will be helped when the bulk of the assistance has gone to members opposite in their ridings. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the Minister can indicate whether this Interest Rate Relief Program, and I believe it's in three phases, In three areas, whether or not it has a sunset date, whether it's to be completed sometime in the future.

If it Isn't can he give us some Indication as to the share of funds he will be receiving from the Minister of Finance who has now $15 0 million of extra funding, and he indicated supportive arguments to Bill No. 27, that a fair amount of that would be directed towards agriculture loaning. My que stion is, will this program continue? Second ly, will it be eligible tor funding that has come forth by way of the issuing of preferred shares? Thirdly, to what degree? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'm very pleased that the honourable members opposite are Interested in moves that we have made. lt's just that they didn't give us very much credit for writing down and saving Manitoba farmers $18 million of high interest loans. Sir, that whole area will be reviewed and when all the details are known we will be looking and reviewing our various policies and the amounts of funding that might be available. That is a new area that has not yet been determined as to how much, when. That will have to completed and there will be a discussion and analysis by all my colleagues, not just by myself.

The Inter est Rate Relief Program, as the member knows, the deadline for applications ended with the seco nd year. People who are on the program will continue to reapply if they're eligible for the second year benefits it will continue until the time. In other words people who applied up until December 31, 1983 in fact have two years if they're eligible on the program. The program will continue for that duration. MR. H. ENNS: I just want to point out to the Minister and indeed to the First Minister, Mr.

Chairman, that we're not that unreaso nable that we don't understand that the interest rate problems in this country aren't all on the shoulders of this Premi er, on this Minister. We know the difficulties and we experience them among our constituents every day, every weekend that we go back to them. But, Mr. Chairman, it all stems from the fact that what the Premier affixed his signature to at the time of the '81 election, when he said no Manltobans will lose their homes or farms due to high interest. Mr.

Chairman, if they had said, we will do all we can to assist; if they had said, we will try to mitigate the harsh economic circumstances that we're faced with, the Minister and his government would not be facing the kind of arguments we're putting up. But, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that when persons aspire to responsible positions, that of government and that of Ministers of Agriculture, not just say that in the heat of a campaign speech, not just to say that in somebody's kitchen in order to maybe gain favour with that particular voter.

No, Sir, but to distribute that in printed and written form with the leader of that party's signature affixed to it stating the bald _fact that no farmer, no small busine ss will lose their enterprise because of high interest rates. 2324

Thur.dar, 28 June, 1984 Mr. Chairman, that is what continues to exercise us on this que stion on this side of the House and we have every reason to be. I would hope that it would be a lesson to honourable members opposite about the kind of material they distribute in future elections. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1.-p ass. Resolution No. 14 4: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,900,000 for Emergency Inter est Rate Relief, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 85-pass. Flood Control and Energency Expen ditures, Item 1. ­ the Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. This is where the Premier and his Minister are not going to get off as easily . I think that we are in a time when we have a particular group of people in society who are not being looked after by this First Minister and the Minister of Agriculture. I have been continually getting calls from the Minister's own constituency not by one, not by two, but by many of his constituents who are saying they are left hung out to drown by this gover nment. Mr.

Chairman, we look at this appropriation of some $1 million - and I'll read to the Minister so he can talk to his constituents. lt's Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures, and what does it say? "P rovides for expenditures related to flooding and other natureal disasters. Includes municipal flood grants, departmental flood expenditures, Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board and other related expenditures." Mr. Chairman, the Minister talks about the turnaround of the farm economy and the fact that the statistics will be better.

I was told this morning by a constituent of his that if some action isn't taken by the Provincial Government that there will be an additional 11 farmers disappear out of the Riverton area because there isn't any assistance by his government, Mr. Chairman, 11 more farmers to go because of harsh eco nomic disasters. Let us take time, Mr. Chairman, to thank the Mennonite Central who have some compassion, who took action to help that group of people. I think we should take our hats off to them because they realized the need that was there by that communi ty.

That should be evidence enough for this Premier, for this Minister of Agriculture, that there should be action taken by the govern ment. lt isn't, Mr. Chairman, in every case because one or two farmers are hurt, this has happened for some three to five years now, year after year. I believe it's time that the Minister took the lead because he's got money in place to do this, such as the Saskatchewan Government did with certain mun icipalities that were flooded out. There was an acreage payment put in place the first of this week to help a few commu nities that were hurt because of high water. The longer term, Mr.

Chairman, is a drainage program or project that can assist those people. He refers to crop insu rance, Mr. Chairman. Well, let me tell you, the people in that community are not going to get enough out of crop insurance to keep them in business, and he can't use the example that the flooded basements can be helped because there isn't any insurance available. There is insurance available for coverage for basements that have got water in them, Mr. Chairman. Sure there is crop insurance for crops that are drowned, but not enough in specific cases, Mr.

Chairman, that's what we are asking for, In fact, he has money available. There are people who are in need and are going to go broke, Mr. Chairman, are going to leave the scene because they are not getting assistance from this communi ty. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I was told the Premier and the Minister are actually now ignoring any calls that are coming from that particular area, that they are ignoring their own constituents in the ln terlake area. - (I nterjection) - We ll, Mr. Chairman, I am telling you the Minister has got $1 million dollars in Disaster Flood Assistance.

Wha t happened during our term of office, Mr. Chairman? We had a flood in the Red River - (I nterjection) - Ye s, we had a flood in the Red River and took action to help those farmers and those people in the Red River and other communi ties. A MEMBER: Last year we had a drought. MR. J. DOWNEY: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, and we had a major drought. What did we do? We put $40 million in an emergency program. Those are the kinds of things that cost a lot of mone y.

These particular farmers, and I make suggestions about the ones in the Riverton area, and there is definitely need there; I am sure in the Ashern area; In the Camper Drain area where Mr. A MEMBER: Dog Lake. MR. J. DOW NEY: Dog Lake, whatever it is, Mr. Chairman - the Minister is familiar with it - there are two areas there. The Efie area, I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, I drove through there right after the storm, and I continue to drive through there, there are some cases can be made for specific help there, I am sure. Again, Mr.

Chairman, I plead with the Minister of Agriculture to consider the emergency in the southwest area where there is certainly a crisis situation with the grasshopper outbreak. lt is time for the government to realize that you don't stand in the Legislature and make grandiose speeches about you're assessing the problem, you a�e looking at it, that you are goin g to talk to the Federal Government. Mr.

Chairman, what the people in these situations want is an assurance that there is a Minister, or a member of the government, that is aware of and actually doing something about it, to either request federal assistance to help them or putting in place some of this $1 million. There is money here, Mr. Chairman. I ask the Minister if he won't again go back to his Cabinet colleagues, because of money that's already being voted here. We are voting for a million dollars. There aren't, in great numb ers of people, that many. I say 11 farmers going broke. What is there? Can the Minister tell us? Are there 50 farmers?

Are there 50 farmers that are being hurt? I would say probably in that neighbourhood with extreme flooding? Let's use the money that we are voting for them; let's not put up a bureaucratic system that disallows them to get the monies that are being voted; let us 2325

Thursday, 28 June, 1984 not make excuses, Mr. Premier, for those people who are in desperate need. I would say, if the Premier were serious about being the soft-hearted kind of a person that he pretends to be, that he would take immediate action, that he would go to the Riverton area and say, yes - Saskatchewan has set an example, they are going to pay some $10 an acre for flood assistance, or X­ number of dollars, I think that's what it is - that we will pay on the same lines and we will go to Ottawa to have them match the money that we are putting up.

Ye s, we'll go to Ottawa and we will match that mone y. it's not as if you are providing assistance to some 20,000 farmers in Manitoba. The num bers are small and the situation has been identified and supported by the Mennonite Central as a disaster. Mr. Chairman, how much more dem onstration does the Minister need? Eleven more farmers to leave the Riverton area because of lack of action on his behalf and there is money voted. Do I have to read it to him again? lt's on Page 139 in the Estimate book, $1 million. MR. H. ENNS: That's just a token amount, we put $40 million in when we . MR. J.

DOW NEY: I have indicated that we put $40 million into an emergency program. So it's not, Mr.

Chairman, as if it's going to run the province in a defi cit, in fact, it may not take more than what is allowed in this particular vote, but I would hope when the problem is there, it's been identified, that the government would take action to spend some of that mon ey, and not set up a bu reaucratic system that will prevent them from getting to it, because what more message does the Minister of Agriculture need when his own backyard is screaming out for help, saying, we are in bad need of some immedia te relief, we are in need of some longer­ term drainage projects which will help in the longer term. lt's not as if it would be an annual output of money If the government moved now on a short-term basis to help them with a cashflow and, in the longer term, worked on some drainage projects which would in the end alleviate their problem.

I am not hollering for every farmer, Mr. Chairman. I am hollering for a few people who I think deserve the kind of help that this Minister is asking us to vote funds for. I am going to commit my colle agues, I am sure that there isn't going to be a one-person vote against this emergency fund. MR. H. ENNS: Not one. MR. J. DOWNEY: Not a one-person vote against this emergency fund to help the people, such as, the Mennonite Central who have taken their own money and their own time to help that group of people. Su rely , there is a little compassion, or are they going to let me, Mr.

Chairman, leave this Chamber thinking and telling the people of Manitoba tha t the Pawley Government is hard and calloused; hard and calloused, Mr. Chairman? We ll, I have no other alternative but to leave with that impression and go to the Riverton area, and go to the Ashern area, and go to the Elie area and say this government really doesn't care. They really don't care. They can give you lots of lip service and wring their hands but there is no support. Mr.

Chairman, there is just one other point I want to make in this particular area and that deals with the grasshopper situation which I have been press ing this Minister for. Last year there was a problem that could have, I think, helped to control them. We now have a major grasshopper outbreak from the United States bou ndary right through every muni cipality in my constitutency right into the Virden constitutenc y, and it is no small area at this particular point. There are hundr eds of acres, Mr.

Chairman, that they have infested; they have infested pastures, hay lands, and are taking off some of the spring crops. Mr. Chairman, the Minister in his answer the other day said, well, we can't take the responsibility for such things as beetles in r.apeseed and that type of thing; I am not asking for that. The beetles in rapeseed , Mr. Chairman, when a farmer decides to grow rapeseed he knows that he'll have a beetle problem; he knows that he will have to spend money on the beetle control. That's a given, Mr.

Chairman, and I am not asking for control of flea beetles in rapeseed or those other insects that come along. Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentions caterpillars and cankerworms, if there is a major outbreak. The elm disease, we have programs to help with the elm disease. When the mosquito outbreak comes, and I know that it's a matter of life or limb when those programs are introduced for mosquitoes, there is a massive spraying program. Last year, my constitutents had a hard time figuring out why there was a big B-52 Bomber - no, it wasn't a B-52. What was that? MR. H. ENNS: We ll, it was pretty close. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Pretty close. I have to apologize, Mr. Chairman. We do have B-52 Bombers flying over and thank God we do. They are working out of the Minot Air Force Base and they are giving us protect ion; something that this country hasn't got to protect its citizens, but our good neighbours to the south have and they do some training over our area. So we don't get too nervous when we see some of the large planes. But there was a large plane spraying mosquitoes and I know that it was a decision that most people support that it had to take place and it was to protect lives. Mr.

Chairman, I don't think that the grasshopper problem should be overlooked by this Minister. If he does not take action and expand, and I say this in all sincerity, if he were to provide some assistance on the purchase of chemical to farmers that there would be a massive take-on of spraying and it would, in fact, shrink the problem, not allow it to enla rge. The Minister has money being voted here and I again go back. I think, in particular, it's these kinds of situations that action should come from this Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As the member knows, this appropriation has traditionally been a $1 million amount in the Estimates to cover compensation given out, not by the Department of Agriculture, but by the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board in accordance with the federal-pr ovincial formula and so on. 2326

T1u11'8daJ, 28 June, 1914 The member makes note of the fact that the Federal and Provincial Governments should be assisting when there are disasters and so on. I point out to him that in this year, the Federal and Provincial Governments expect to pay out in the neighbourhood of $17 million in agricultural relief. Just on the Crop Insurance Program alone, it's going to be subsid ized to the extent of $17 mill ion by the Federal and Provincial Governments together. So, this $1 million, let's not spend it too often.

We're going to spend it on the ice storm; we're going to spend it on floods; we're going to spend it on other natural disasters. There's certainly no question that we will spend it. Let's not leave on the record the impression, first of all, that government is not prepared to do something for people suffering from disasters. Secondly, let's also not leave the impr ession that this $1 million is all that we are prepared to put out for agricultur e between the Federal and Provincial Governments. I'm not talking about other programs. I'm just talking about crop protection, $17 million this year.

So, that's 17 times as much as what the member was asking for here, if he was asking to spend every penny of this program here. - (Interjection) - lt has to be taxed for in this year, Mr. Chairman, and a $17 million Input is $17 million whether it was here some other time or not. That is something that the public should be aware of. That's another area that the member mentions and that is the matter of the Mennonite Central Committee. The Mennonite Central Commit tee is a very fine organization which has a manda te which is quite different from that of government.

They can choose a geographical area, as they have frequently in the past. A few years ago, there was damage in another part of the province - they chose that area. What they'r e not responsible for is a program that treats every taxpayer in the province in a similar fashion. This was the difficulty that we had. We would love to have gotten involved, but we also recognized in looking at that problem at Riverton, that we would then be in a position where it would be unfair to some other farmer in a similar circumstance in another geographical part of this province.

We talked with MCC about it and I've talked with a num ber of their people. They un derstand the difficulty government had. They would have preferred the money. Of course, they would have, but they also understood they couldn't make a commitment to come in at the amount for other farmers in similar circumstances. They had a specific program. We're very happy that they went to the effort of helping those farmers. Of course, we're prov idi ng it in many other ways and not, unfortunately, in that particular program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to speak for a moment with respect to the plight in which so many home-owners in the City of Winnipeg presently find themselves. With all due respect to the government, I don't deny that perhaps they do intend eventually to participate in assisting people whose homes have been flooded. As I und erstand the situation, Mr.

Chairman, certain material and evidence particularly of rainfall in the city, was presented to the Provincial Government on Monday of this week; evidence that showed that on June 6th, June 16th, and then the the third rainfall, there was clear evidence that the amount of rain that fell upon the city was at least of a magnititude of a maximum storm expected once every 25 years, and three of those fell upon the city within the short s pace of less than two weeks. In many areas of the city, the rainfall was up to a maximum storm expected once in every 80 years. There's no question, Mr.

Chairman, that the city has suffered severe rainfall, extraord inary rainfall over very short periods of time which exacerbated the problem. Now, Mr. Chairman, that evidence has been supplied to the Provincial Government and there's clear evidence that there have been a severe num ber of flooded basements throughout the city. Yet the city has been requested to obtain through newspaper surveys and telephone surveys more detailed information.

At the same time, the Federal Minister tias Indicated in a statement which I heard on the radio made in the House of Commons, that they were anxious to proceed and to receive and accept the application from the province. I'm just concerned, Mr. Chairman, that a great deal of delay has been introduced into providing home­ owners some financial relief in this situation.

We're shortly into the month of July and August when many people in the city take their summer vacations and leave the city and they're caught with all of this damage in their basements, and they have not been told what the rules will be for compensation, not been told what records they have to keep, what photographs of the damage that they have to keep. I think this kind of information has to be given to the citizens of the city who have suffered this damage just as Immediately as possible, Mr. Chairman. I'm very concerned with the delay that has gone on to date.

I would ask the Minister of Urban Affairs whether or not the province could at least put out tomorrow or Saturday, before the weekend, some information that would ind icate what type of evidence will be required by home-owners to supply when the application by the city to declare a disaster in the city has been approved and the Federal and Provincial Governments have approved of that action and agreed to participate financially. lt is extremely Important to the individ11al home­ owners caught in the situation that they have to know what information will be required eventually in the application forms.

There should be steps taken, I think, in the interim to establish the board. lt takes the city two weeks to supply this information; it will come to the province; ther e'll be another del ay, making decisions; then it will go to the Federal Government; there'll be another delay. We could be talking quite easily a month's delay before home-owners know whether or not they will be compensated. Some interim steps should be tak<m by the government immediately in terms of indicating what information will be required so that people caught in this plight will be able to prepare their application forms for compensation.

I think some administrative structure should be set in place immediately, so that again there is not further delay. After all of the expected del ay, I would think that it may very well be at least up to four weeks before any 2327

Thursday, 28 June, 1984 ind ication is given to home-owners from the government. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, procedu res will be identical to what they have been in the past. People deal with the city. You certainly haven't put that kind of a proposal forward. None of the rural members made that kind of a ridiculous suggestion when it came to the ice storm. You deal with your muni cipality and the municipality deals with the province. Here we are having the Member for St. Norbert suggesting that we should rush off to Ottawa - to do what? - to have Winnipeg declared a disaster area, which does what?

And it doesn't matter. That will not pay anybody two cents . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. V. SCHROEDER: We're saying let's find out what the damages are and then we will proceed. To say now, well, it's a disaster area, but we don't know whom to pay is not going to increase payments or hurry them up by two seconds. What do you want to do, take $1 million and stand on Main Street and pass it out to passersby? That is the most ludicrous suggestion I've ever heard of.

The city - and we met with the city the other day - didn't even suggest to us that we, without knowing num bers declare a disaster area, do all these wonderful things. They recognize that what you do Is, you find out what the problems are and then you solve them. That's what we will do. - (I nterjection) - it's not Big Brother knowing best. We have an agreement that says exactly how the costs will be shared and that's how they will be shared. We can't send a cheque until we know what the costs are. We've asked them to tell us what the costs are. That is only logical.

But to say that we've got this wonderful disaster area which is a term that we don't need - all we need to have is more damages, as I und erstand it, than $1 per taxpayer in order for that formula to click into place. Once that has happened, and we don't know what the damages are today, neither does the Member for St. Norbert. Now to have someone say, well, we will pay without it ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . . we have an admin istrative setup. These people don't seem to unde rstand what's happening. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1. -p ass.

Resolution No. 14 5: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,000,000 for Flood Control and Emergency Expenditur es for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. SUPPLY - CAPITAL SUPPLY

(2) MR. CHAIRMAN: Capital Supply to Capital Authority Req uir ements for Non-Budg etary Programs. Any discussion? The Member for Turtle Mounta in. MR. B. RANSOM: We've got $243 million here, Mr. Chairman, that we are being asked to pass. Do you suppose that it would be too much to ask the Minister for a little explanation about how the money's going to be used? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I think that's a most reasonable question. I would expect that the Mi nisters in charge of the various Crown corporations who are obtaining funds here ought to be asked to come in to make statements.

If we have a minute, we could get them in. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps while we're waiting, the Minister could indicate to us what he plans to do with the money raised through the issue of preferred shares that were just hand led last week. How does he plan to pass that money on to farmers or home-owners or whatever? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, we are looking at ways of providing through MHCC some of those funds for the agricultural community.

We're also looking at, thr ough the Mani toba Housing & Renewal Corporation, passing some of those funds on In the area of home building and possibly the rental market. We haven't fixed num bers on it. They would obviously be within the nu mbers - we have authority under The Loans Acts that will be and have been approved in the past. MR. B.

RANSOM: Would the expectation be, through the Manitoba Agricultur al Credit Corporation, for ins tance, that some of this Capital Author ity of $37,284 ,000 might be raised through the sale of the preferred shares and that it would be advanced then on the basis of the 9.25 percent plus the admin istrative charge? HON. V. SCHROEDER: That is what I am hoping to be able to do, yes. MR. B.

RANSOM: Are there going to be any restrictions on that, or will that be an amount of money that's available through the Agricultural Credit Corporation until it's expired, until the money is all taken up, and we then expect interest rates to go back up to whatever the Canadian borrowing rate is? Has the Minister given any consideration to passing on the interest rate that he gets in Switzerland, for instance, on the Swiss francs? There was discussion of that earlier in the Department of Agriculture Estimates. Would they be prepared to pass on that kind of interest rate to the farmers? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, as the member knows, that's quite a different proposition. With this particular money, we would be able to at least put it into a pool with other money and average out interest rates to whatever it is. If it's Canadian money, we know with certainty what the interest rates are. When you get to foreign curren cy, that's a different story altogether. I would certainly not be prepared on the part of the government to accept the exchange risks and give all of the benefits over to any particular community in the province because, as the member 2328

Ttturaday, 21 June, 1184 knows, sometimes these 6 percent rates turn out to be higher than Canadian rates. Sometimes they turn out to be much lower than Canadian rates. I wouldn't want to put us in a position where we were basically subsi dizing without having consciously made the decision to subsidize. I should point out as well that, in terms of funds from this issue, the issue had a share warrant tied to it. Of course it need not be, but there may be, depending on what interest rates do next year , a further approximately $200 million coming from that source next year. MR. B.

RANSOM: What's the difference in the cost to the taxpayer whether that money is advanced through Agricultural Credit Corporation or whether it goes into General Revenue, and the value of the currency changes and we end up paying a higher rate than we otherwise would have paid? What's the difference to the taxpayer? HON. V. SCHROEDER: The difference to the taxpayer very clearly is that we're not lending money out to anybody else at 6 percent.

If we were to lend money out from this fund at 6 percent and lose money on it, then that would mean we would have a higher deficit than we would have had, had we lent it out at the rates at which we currently do lend it out. That's the big difference to the deficit. We don't calculate our cost of money at that kind of a rate, overall. We expect that it will be closer in the long run - not in the short run - to the Canadian average. Of course, as the member knows, our biggest exchange losses have been not with Swiss francs but with United States dollars. MR. B. RANSOM: I'm just Interested though, Mr.

Chairman, in knowing what's the difference to the taxpayers if there's a loan of 100 million Swiss francs and it goes into covering government programs, and the interest rates change, the taxpayers are going to end up picking up the difference. What's the difference whether it is going in there and the benefits are being spread, or whether it goes into the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the benefits are being concentrated but the costs are still being spread? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Put it this way. With our 9.25 percent money plus costs, we have a fixed cost.

We know when we pass it on to taxpayers that is not costing us something. We know when we start out that it's going to, in all likelihood, cost us something more than 6 percent here. So we would know in the beginning that we were subsidizing an operat