Fifth Session-Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba .... . . : :. \�:U!!!�� ... -·�· DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 138- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April22, 1999 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosano Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

551 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April22 , 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Earth Day Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Environment): I am rising today on the occasion of Earth Day. This event is being celebrated around the world to remind us that our natural environment is fundamental to our quality of life and indeed to our very existence. When the first Earth Day was held almost 30 years ago, it was held less as a celebration than a protest, a protest at the time against the obvious degradation of the environment that was occurring around us.

It was part of a movement that ultimately led to the creation of the institutions and the laws that safeguard our environment today. This coming Sunday at The Forks, Manitobans will have the opportunity to come together to celebrate our own made-in-Manitoba Earth Day. Our own Fort Whyte nature centre has been instrumental in organizing Manitoba's Earth Day. It is a very fitting role for this world­ renowned environmental education centre. Fort Whyte's participation in the events of the day will emphasize that we have come a long way in our environmental actions and thinking.

Fort Whyte itself is a case in point, Madam Speaker. They have turned abandoned gravel pits and wasteland into a world-class environmental education centre which has influenced the environmental awareness of a generation of Manitobans. They have under­ taken the restoration of tall grass prairie lands and they are involved in the innovative reclamation of an old industrial site in Transcona. They are striving to make every day Earth Day. The first Earth Day marked just the start of the awareness and involvement for many.

Today in Manitoba it marks the celebration of a very high-level awareness and involvement in environmental issues. Over the past several years literally thousands of young people have been involved in environmental projects through the Manitoba Youth Corps, the Manitoba Green Team, and our schools are encouraging and sponsoring a wide variety of environmental activities. Environment and sustainable development is an accepted part of our schools' curriculum.

Tens of thousands of school children visit facilities like Fort Whyte and Oak Hammock Marsh each year to learn about their environment and what they can do to help preserve it. Madam Speaker, we have had to learn that there are limits to the stresses we can put on the environment, limits that only became apparent as our populations and economies grew. Our children, on the other hand, are learning about the concepts of ecology and stewardship at an early age. Environmental stewardship is for many of them a fundamental part of their value system. So we celebrate.

We also have a time of introspection to ask ourselves what more needs to be done and what challenges lie ahead. We have done much to promote the principles of sustainable development, but we still have a long way to go before sustainable development becomes second nature in everything that we Manitobans do. Many of our challenges are external­ climactic change and other issues of that sort, greenhouse gas emissions . All of these are things that will require fundamental shifts in the way we do things in our society.

So let us celebrate Earth Day, because we have come a long way in the past 30 years, and indeed we do have much to celebrate. Let us remind ourselves that this is a work in progress and that we must now apply the lessons we have learned from our

55 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April22, 1999 past successes to meet larger challenges in the future. Thank you. * (1335 ) Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I would like to respond to the minister's statement on Earth Day.

Earth Day is the day that we recognize the importance of maintaining the quality of our air, land, and water, and the key element of that is public participation in decision making, in a statement from a government that has cut funding to the Department of Environment by $5 million since it was elected, 1988, a government that we do not know where the status of the Household Hazardous Waste Program is. I raised the issue earlier on this week with the minister with on off, on off. Individuals out there are doing the responsible thing. They are collecting their household hazardous waste­ paints, solvents.

They do not know what to do with them, because the minister has yet to come forward to make a statement about that. Manitobans are paying a two-cent environmental levy on containers, and now currently the government has about seven or so­ maybe even higher-million dollars in that fund. Yet, there are still Manitobans who do not receive recycling opportunities in this province.

This is a government that used the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund as a political slush fund, where 90 percent of the grants went to projects in Conservative ridings, a government that never once supported any of our private members' resolutions on this side of the House pertaining to the improvement of our environment. This is what we have from the members opposite. Earlier today, I had a chance to take

part in an event in my constituency where a group of students, along with their teachers, reclaimed a portion of their school yard, and they were turning it into tall grass prairie. They put aside a part of the project to grow vegetables for the Selkirk Food Bank. This, to me, is what Earth Day is all about. It is about grassroot action to protect and to save our environment. Thank you very much. Littleton, Colorado, Tragedy Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I have a brief statement for the House.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say a few words about the senseless deaths of 14 students and one teacher at a high school in Littleton, Colorado. As a parent, my heart goes out to the staff and the students, family members and friends who are struggling to come to grips with this most unfortunate tragedy. We tend to look upon our schools as safe havens for our children.

When we send our children out the door each morning we hope that they will be nurtured, challenged and stimulated and come home a little wiser each day, but the life lessons doled out in Littleton are the types of lessons we hope our children never have to learn. The tragedy of Littleton, Colorado, is one that we do not wish to see repeated anywhere. We must come up with strategies to prevent these types of incidents from happening. We much reach out to our children, our families and our friends when they are in need.

The events at Littleton, Colorado, cause us to pause and think about how much we cherish our families and our friends and how important it is to listen to and to be aware of the feelings of others. We must be aware of subtle signals others send out, signals that may indicate they want us to reach out and help them. We must answer that call. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1340) Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, perhaps I will just repeat some of the comments that I made yesterday in Members' Statements. I think it is important to begin by acknowledging that when a family sees a child off to school, they expect that child to spend the day learning and growing and building a stronger future, and to instead come to grips with the eradication of a future at school is one of the most troubling events that can transpire. As I said yesterday, the only good that can come from such a horror is it gives us the opportunity to re­ examine not just our personal behaviour perhaps -

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 553 as parents, perhaps as mentors, but it does provide us an opportunity to re-examine our systems, how we collectively deal with challenges in the community, and it allows us to re-examine our social development as a community. I note that it was the Minister of Education who made the statement. Just to draw on that for a moment, we indeed have to make every effort to ensure that our schools are safe places for learning, but at the same time we must recognize that the scourge of violence and hatred is not bred in the schools but is brought in from outside.

At the same time we all must also recognize that schools can be a greater part of the solution through such programs as nonviolent conflict resolution programs. We are seeing conflict mediators in the school grounds. We are seeing restorative justice programs develop in our schools. We are seeing safe school policies initiated through consultations with the students, the greater community, parent councils, educators and administrators, and we have, I think, some good models to go forward on, not just where nonviolence and tolerance and respect are taught but where it is indeed practised.

Madam Speaker, to go outside of the school to where indeed the hatred and the violence are bred is the greater challenge. I think it is incumbent on each of us as community leaders in our own way, those in positions of authority, to question how we can deal with those big issues out there. I cannot help but think of how we must re-evaluate the virtually unchecked growth explosion, if you will, of a violent, popular culture. It is a popular culture characterized by the glorification of violent so­ called heroes in movies, of video games that actually enlist children in violence against human characters.

As I said yesterday, the sanctity of human life is therefore relegated, denigrated to mere body counts in movies, on television or to a score in a video game. It is hard here in Manitoba, one relatively small jurisdiction, to do something about that, but now is the time to think about what we can do. Closer to home, we know how important it is to constantly re-evaluate our responses to violence in the home through our policies regarding domestic violence, for example, how well we learn from past tragedies, even in this jurisdiction.

We must re-evaluate how we deal both on the prevention and the suppression side of violent gang activity, and we must re-evaluate how well we deal with the challenge of youth despair. In this province where we suffer record levels of youth despair, if you rely on the measurements that are available to us, whether it is violent youth crime-I understand the largest increase in violent youth crime in Canada, the province's-we look at the teenage suicide rates, and we look at risk factors such as the rate of children in care, the rate of teenage pregnancy, Manitoba is not faring well. So we have work to do.

I will conclude with yesterday's comments that, while we indeed mourn the loss that this tragedy has brought, we also hope that from this school in Colorado some most profound and unintended lessons will be taught and that in some way we will progress. Thank you. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would ask for leave just to add a few words in regard to this issue. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave to make comment on the ministerial statement? [agreed] Mr.

Lamoureux: It is indeed something that I think has touched the hearts and souls of individuals young and old from coast to coast on this particular continent. It is a very sad occasion and a lot to be learned by it. In fact, we should never believe that an incident of this nature could never happen north of the United States. We can recall a number of years back where there was a student that was killed in a high school situation in Sturgeon Creek. It. happened some 15, 20 years ago. *

(1345) When we think of our schools, we like to believe that these are safe and secure premises, that they are there for our young people to learn, to challenge their abilities from an educational standpoint. I think that all of our hearts and

554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April22, 1999 condolences would go to the families and friends and all the young people who were so dramatically affected. What we have seen through the media has had an impact on people here in Manitoba. You listen to radio shows or you read newspapers or get commentaries from television, you will see young people who have been torn apart and do not know what to think. It goes right to our seniors, that whole element of fear.

Hopefully all of us, as legislators, will gain something from this tragic occurrence and see the importance of doing what we can to provide that safe and secure atmosphere so our children feel safe in our public and private schools. Thank you. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Finance, with a ministerial statement. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): No, I have some tablings. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): I would like to table the following, which have already been distributed: The Manitoba Foundation Annual Report; Supplementary Loan and Guarantee Authority Report; the Manitoba Hospital Capital Financing Authority Auditor's Report; Debt Retirement Fund Annual Report; and the Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations Annual Report. Hon.

Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am pleased to table the following '97-98 annual reports from the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, copies of which reports having been previously distributed: the Annual Report for Manitoba Industry, Trade and Tourism; Annual Report for the Cooperative Promotion Board; Annual Report for the Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board; Annual Report for the Manitoba Development Corporation; Annual Report for Manitoba Trade; Annual Report for Industrial Technology Centre; and the Annual Report for Economic Innovation and Technology Council.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon fifteen Grade 5 students from Archwood School under the direction of Mrs. Connie Stanley. This school is located in the constituency of St. Boniface. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1350) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Care Workers Marketing-Per sonal Care Homes Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): is there a policy on home care staff being asked to recruit people to be placed in private profit supportive housing in Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am just trying to understand the question from the Leader of the Opposition.

A policy on home care workers for placements in private home care arrangements-! am assuming from his question he is suggesting that home care workers who basically work for the provincially funded home care system basically through organizations like the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority are providing those services. We all know that there are some private sector companies that provide some service enhancements to individuals who need home care services, but certainly there is significant support from the provincially funded Home Care program which in last year's budget was $123 million.

In fact, some additional expenditures were provided in this budget year, '98-99. So actually the Home Care program is significantly greater than the $123 million. Certainly it is a very comprehensive program meeting the needs of individuals requiring home care in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Doer: We have heard from a number of home care staff that there has been an attempt

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 555 now to use the home care office-and we have a memo from the director of home care indicating that it expected that appropriate clients will be called to hear more information about the Rosewood centre. All clients on their caseload are to be called and identified, and pamphlets are to be sent now to, quote, customers. Rosewood Village centre is owned by KPCC Management; its rents are between $1,37 5 and $1,975 per month. It is a private profit firm.

Is it appropriate that provincially funded people are being asked to review files and recruit people and hand out pamphlets to "customers" for this private profit centre? Mr. Stefanson: Well, again, we have an extremely comprehensive Home Care program in Manitoba. In fact last year nationally, it was recognized as the most comprehensive Home Care program in all of Canada. I have already indicated financially last year's budget, $1 23 million, in fact, a greater amount than $123 million being spent in 1998-99. We will wait for our upcoming budget in terms of the allocation for Home Care in the upcoming year.

So, again, the program that is funded and run through the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority through the RHAs is funded significantly by the taxpayers of Manitoba, by the provincial government. In terms of the some of the facilities the member is referring to, I believe home care services certainly are available from the publicly funded Home Care program. Individuals do have an opportunity to access private home care over and above or under different situations than the provincially funded program if they deem that that is required.

But certainly the provincially funded program is extremely comprehensive. In fact, most would suggest it is the most comprehensive in all of Canada. Mr. Doer: That is certainly what we argued when this minister was responsible for Treasury Board, and along with the former Minister of Health they tried to privatize the most comprehensive system in Canada. I am glad they have a pre-election conversion on the road to Damascus on this issue, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the minister indicated that home care is paid for by the taxpayers of Manitoba.

Is it appropriate that the taxpayers of Manitoba pay for publicly funded home care staff to be located at the Rosewood centre for purposes of this recruitment drive to this private profit centre? *

(1355) Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, if individuals are assessed as being allowed to access the Home Care program in any given facility, we continue, and I am sure the Home Care program run by the WCA and the RHAs continue to look at the most efficient and effective way to provide that home care, and they will make the decision.

If a given facility has a certain number of home care clients, so to speak, where it is more efficient to provide that through the individual being accessible right in that facility, that might very well be the most efficient way to provide that home care as opposed to having a number of home care workers coming into any given facility.

So certainly, as much as we are proud of the fact that we have the most comprehensive program in all of Canada-we have tripled the home care budget in Manitoba since 1988-it certainly is incumbent on the organization and the program to always look at the most efficient and effective way to provide those very important services. I know that is a concept that is awfully difficult for members opposite to understand, but it is incumbent on the people providing that service to always do it as efficiently and effectively as possible. Home Care Workers Marketing-Per sonal Care Homes Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Health. I have spoken with home care workers who never in the past were told that they had to go marketing for a private company to try to fill up spaces. Never before has a memo gone out from the director of home care to workers saying that they should phone their client list, put a record on their client list whether or not the person wants to go to the Rosewood and, quote, hand out pamphlets to potential customers where possible. That is, potential customers who are home care clients.

556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 My question to the Minister of Health is: will you order today your home care co­ ordinators and workers to stop marketing for the Rosewood home? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I certainly would be interested in the member tabling the document that he referred to. I would think he would accept that if people go into the Rosewood facility and they are entitled to home care in Manitoba, Madam Speaker, they should receive home care in Manitoba.

It is only members opposite who would support a system that would have a number of home care workers going into any one facility if you can do it more efficiently by having a single home care worker providing those services in any given facility. So, again, I am certainly interested in the member tabling whatever information it is he has, but certainly if people in any given facility are entitled to home care in Manitoba, it is certainly incumbent on all of us to provide that home care. Mr.

Cbomiak: Madam Speaker, would the minister not agree that with respect to personal care homes, an individual has a choice of going to three personal care homes? You are given that option and you are not pressured. But with respect to the new sort of quasi-marketing program under home care, home care workers are phoning clients and asking them, giving them pamphlets to a particular private facility and asking them. Will the minister not admit that that is wrong? Mr.

Stefanson: Again, I mean, if it is a matter of making individuals aware of what services are available to them if they meet the criteria, I would think that that is something that members opposite would support in terms of heightening awareness of individuals if they are in a facility that they also would be- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing difficulty hearing the honourable Minister of Health. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, in terms of making sure that individuals are aware that they can access home care, obviously it they meet certain criteria-and the objective is also to provide that home care service in as efficient and effective way as possible throughout all of our facilities and throughout the entire program. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I will table the directive that has gone out from home care to its staff. I would like to ask the minister to explain why staff were asked to phone all the clients. They could not fill up the Rosewood.

Now the criteria have been relaxed to try to fill up the Rosewood, and you have home care staff literally phoning their clients, marking on the assessment forms whether they want to go to the Rosewood or not, which is wrong, and giving the pamphlets to the, quote, customers to get them to go to the Rosewood, a private, for-profit facility that has been erected. Is this not wrong? Will the minister not stop it today? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I certainly repeat what I have already said to members opposite. We have the most comprehensive Home Care program in all of Canada. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, we have the most comprehensive Home Care Program in all of Canada. The budget for our Home Care program has been tripled in the last I 0 years alone. It is now over $123 million. There is a set of criteria that individuals have to meet to qualify for home care, and certainly I would hope members opposite are not suggesting for a minute if people meet those criteria that they should not be provided with home care. Obviously they should be.

It is also incumbent on the whole organization to continue to do that as efficiently and effectively as possible.

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 557 *

(1400) Home Care Workers Marketing-Per sonal Care Homes Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister not recognize that this facility is not even open yet and yet he has intake workers sitting in there encouraging people to come and be part of this private sector initiative? His home care director has suggested that every single person must be called, and they must note why they say no, if they say no. I want to quote from the memo: I appreciate the work initially being done, but I feel it is essential that our program be recognized as being supportive and responsive to this initiative.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Will the honourable member please pose his question. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, this facility is located in the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) riding. Is the facility getting special treatment because it is located in his riding, special treatment in the form of staff on site and marketing from the- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, there is no special treatment being given in any case here.

Again, those kinds of accusations or suggestions coming from the member for Crescentwood are certainly par for the course, and we have grown to expect it, unfortunately, in this House. We continue to provide a very comprehen­ sive Home Care program in Manitoba. The organizations providing the services, the WCA, the RHAs, continue to look at the most efficient and effective way to do that. It is provided to the individuals in their homes, in their apartments. What we are seeing more and more of across Manitoba today are programs like supportive housing and enriched housing.

Certainly a good number of the people in those facilities do qualify for home care, and again, I think it is incumbent to provide that home care as efficiently and effectively as can possibly be done, and we encourage organizations to do that. Mr. Sale: Will the minister recognize that the facility is not even open yet? It is not a question of providing services to which people are entitled. Will he answer whether or not the facility is getting special treatment because its owners have given a total of $30 ,000 to the Conservative Party, including $3 ,000 to the Premier's own re­ election campaign in 1995? Mr.

Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, again the member for Crescentwood is up to the usual. At least his Leader has the common good sense to hand it off to the member for Crescentwood, because we are used to this kind of attitude and approach from that member. Again I repeat, what we are seeing across Manitoba is we are seeing projects of a supportive housing and an enriched housing nature. Go into some of those facilities. Many of the individuals in those facilities are at a stage of life where they qualify for home care services.

Again, the objective of many of these initiatives is to provide the services that people are entitled to, to provide the services that they need and to do it as efficiently and effectively as possible. That is certainly the appropriate way to handle home care in Manitoba. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister and his government simply do the right thing and tell the director of home care that she is to tell her staff not to recruit people to live in this home, not to be present during the process of people visiting the place, and, yes, if people live there and they are entitled to home care after the fact, absolutely, but to stop marketing this home through publicly paid civil servants. Let it fail or succeed on its own merits. Mr. Stefanson: Well, I am glad the member for Crescentwood finally acknowledges that if people are entitled to home care services they should be provided.

It is certainly encouraging that they have recognized that obvious fact, Madam Speaker. Again, the whole objective of our Home Care program is to provide the services to the people when they need them,

55 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 where they need them, and that is continually being done. We have more and more enriched housing projects, supportive housing projects, enriched and supportive housing projects right across Manitoba. Many of the individuals in those homes quality for home care, and again, the organizations will continue to provide that in an efficient and effective manner. Lynn Lake Hospital Foundation Accounts Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, for more than 50 years Lynn Lake has contributed millions of dollars in provincial taxes.

As well, residents have raised more than $35 0, 000 for the Lynn Lake Hospital Foundation. This government wants that money and moved the hospital bank account, which became a factor in the closure of the Lynn Lake bank. My question for the Minister of Health is simply this: why should the funds from the Lynn Lake Hospital Foundation not remain entirely for the purposes of the Lynn Lake Hospital, because that is the reason why the funds were raised in the first place? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, again, Madam Speaker, I will look into the specifics of the Lynn Lake Hospital.

But certainly with the RHAs in general, funds have been retained in two various accounts, one on the basis of foundations, capital accounts, and the other one on the basis of being able to retain some of the equity in RHAs. So certainly the pattern across Manitoba has been leaving a great deal of those funds in place throughout the regions to provide not only for health care services but in some cases to make contributions to the capital requirements in the health care facilities. The specifics of Lynn Lake, I will certainly look into. Lynn Lake Hospital Capital Project-Communi ty Contribution Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, could the minister explain why Lynn Lake will be required to raise a portion of any capital renovations to the Lynn Lake Hospital, in addition to using the hospital foundation money for such renovations? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, Madam Speaker, under certain projects­ and I would have to look at the particulars of Lynn Lake-there is a community contribution policy in place in Manitoba. There has been a policy of one sort or another in place in Manitoba for many, many years.

Other provinces like British Columbia have a 40 percent community contribution requirement; Saskatchewan has a 35 percent community contribution. Here in Manitoba, if a community makes its contribution up front, it is I 0 percent; if they do it over I 0 years, it is 20 percent interest free. So again, depending on the nature of the capital project, not all capital projects require a community contribution. Depending on the nature, some of the projects do, and I am certainly prepared to look into the specifics of the Lynn Lake requirements. Staffing Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Exactly how long does this minister expect the people of Lynn Lake and surrounding area to wait before personnel shortages at the hospital are filled? The hospital now needs a manager, an X-ray technician, a lab technician and nurses. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, Madam Speaker, right across Manitoba we have made significant improvements in terms of accessing people in our health care system.

Certainly when it comes to rural positions, there has been significant improvement in terms of more physicians in rural Manitoba and a number of specialty areas, whether it be anesthetists, oncologists and others. We have made continual improvement in terms of providing more. We certainly do acknowledge that we do need more nurses in Manitoba as does appear to be the case almost right across Canada. We are seeing other provinces under various programs to recruit more nurses. Certainly for Manitoba there is a need to be recruiting more nurses. That is why we have taken a number of steps. We have established a -

April22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 559 $7 -million fund in our province to deal with the issue of recruiting, retaining more nurses in our province. We are continually converting more positions in our health care system to permanent positions. That is what nurses tell us is required to provide the kind of stability that they require. So we are taking a number of steps to provide more nurses right throughout all of Manitoba. *

(1410) Emerson Health Care Facility Capital Project Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is again for the Minister of Health or as many are becoming to know, the minister of announcements. You know, last week the minister came out with so many announcements, it is called regurgitation-is the term-of announcements. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Lamoureux: As the Leader of the Liberal Party was out in Altona yesterday, representatives or individuals from Emerson were out there, and they were saying for the fourth time it was announced last week that the multimillion dollar health care facility was going to happen in Emerson. Madam Speaker, people want to know are they going to be four times lucky- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour­ able member for Inkster, please pose your question now. Mr.

Lamoureux: We are looking to the Minister of Health to acknowledge that it is one thing to make an announcement, it is another thing to actually materialize on an announce­ ment. Four times announcing the same project is not necessarily a positive thing. My question to the Minister of Health is: does this government have any time frame when they are actually going to see some reality as opposed to an announcement and an announcement and a regurgitation of nothing but failed promises? Bon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I am somewhat bewildered by this question, because all the member needs to do is to drive around Winnipeg or drive outside of Winnipeg to many of our communities, and he will see examples of significant health care projects underway right across the province, whether he goes to Concordia Hospital or he goes to Misericordia Hospital or he goes out to Brandon or he goes to Morden-Winkler, or he goes into a community like Altona. The list goes on and on in terms of significant capital projects that are required here in the province of Manitoba.

I am certainly pleased that my colleague the MLA for Emerson (Mr. Penner) was a part of an announcement on Friday for building a new integrated health centre, including in-patient beds, emergency services, primary community health services and a 30 -bed personal care home in Emerson, which is committed to and will be underway very shortly. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour­ able member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, one would think the minister of announcements would be around the corner. Maybe there is a possible election or something of that nature.

My question to the minister of announce­ ments/health is: the capital policy, from what I understand, is that there should be 20 percent down or a commitment of up to 20 percent in order to get the capital project up and going. Has the community established that 20 percent, or can the minister enlighten us as to what degree they have come close to the 20 percent? Mr. Stef anson: We have a community contribution policy which, if a community provides the money up front, it is 10 percent of the capital cost.

The majority of projects that we have ongoing now, the communities have done it on that kind of a basis, and they are able to provide their support in one of many ways. In

560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 some cases they do direct fundraising; in some cases the municipalities make a contribution; in some cases there is some money left in their trust funds, their foundation funds, for capital projects. Again, that has not been an impediment to capital projects going forward, in fact, quite the opposite. It has been a very positive part of our projects because it leads to more community involvement, it leads to significantly more review and due diligence on the projects.

As a result of that, I believe we are ending up with the absolute most appropriate facilities in each and every case . As well, it includes the regional health authorities and their boards and their support staff. I remind members opposite that the community contribution requirement in the province of British Columbia is 40 percent, in the province of Saskatchewan, 35 percent. So certainly ours is very reasonable stacked against those two provinces as examples. Mr.

Lamoureux: Can the Minister of Health tell this House, out of that $123-million capital project, how much of that has actually been approved through those communities that have actually raised the funds, and how much would just be election hype where they do not actually have the communities on side in terms of commitment to financial obligations? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again I just encourage the member to look around this province and see the significant capital improvements in our health care system.

I obviously could go on beyond the list I have already mentioned, facilities like Riverview hospital here in the city of Winnipeg, and it goes on and on. First of all, a number of these projects do not require a community contribution to begin with. Secondly, those that do, I am absolutely confident will all go ahead because to date that has not been an impediment in terms of any projects going ahead. Quite the opposite. It has led to significant community involvement and community contribution.

Going back to the member's first question, I would just encourage him the next time he talks to his Leader, talk to his Leader about the role that the federal government does, and remind his Leader that there is a time to stand up for Manitoba, like he should have been doing when he was a part of the federal Parliament, and he was there when $260 million each and every year was cut from funding support to the province of Manitoba, but yet we continue to commit hundreds of millions of dollars to needed health care projects right across our entire province. Point of Order Mr.

Lamoureux: Yes, Madam Speaker, on a point of order, the Minister of Health knows full well that one should not necessarily be provoking debate. Having said that, given that he was a former Minister of Finance, he should understand that his figures are so far out of the ball park, it is absolutely amazing-$260 million. Obviously he is living on a totally different planet. In one year, $260 million? Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I am some­ what confused with the point of order raised by the honourable member for Inkster because I believe the point of order he raised was relative to the minister not provoking debate, but in his own comments, in my opinion, he also invoked debate. So I will therefore rule that there was no point of order. *

(1420) Unemployment Rate-- Aboriginals Government Initiatives Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): As we all know, the monthly labour force statistics showing the rate of unemployment in Manitoba excludes people living on reserves in this province and indeed across the country. But we do have information from the 1996 census for aboriginal groups both on and off reserves. If we assume the usual participation rate for Manitoba, we find the unemployment rate for reserves is around 50 percent, and at that I think it is understated, Madam Speaker. If we look at a cross-section of reserves in this province, we see even higher rates such as -

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 561 58.9 percent at Fort Alexander and 61.1 percent at Sandy Bay. So, Madam Speaker, in view of the serious economic and social consequences of this unacceptably high unemployment, is the Minister of Finance prepared to face up to this problem in the forthcoming budget and offer new programs that will help reduce unemployment and help these people out of poverty? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): I know the member knows that the manner in which these statistics are gathered and reported has remained the same as when they were in office.

Certainly the unemployment rate was much higher at that time. We are very proud in Manitoba of all of the very positive economic indicators that reflect a very buoyant economy here. Our unemployment rate is at 5.4 percent, the lowest in the country. We have been creating full-time permanent jobs at about 10,000 permanent jobs a year, and all of the economic indicators point to real growth in the province of Manitoba. I know the member for Brandon East has spoken out against the balanced budget legislation and would prefer to see deficits. I can recall him making speeches that deficits stimulate the economy.

Certainly he is out of step with what is going on across this country. We believe in balanced budgets, and I believe, even if he does not, his Leader now believes in balanced budgets, although I know that members of his caucus still speak against it. Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, I am not sure what that answer had to do with my question. I asked the minister-! want the minister- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Brandon East, with a supplementary question. Mr. L.

Evans: I would ask this minister if he would face up to the problem of unemployment among both aboriginal and Metis people living off of the reserves where we find unemployment rates easily three to four times higher than the average for this province. The minister can talk all he wishes about low unemployment rates, but for this group of people it is absolutely intolerable. So I am asking the minister: is he prepared to take some concrete steps? We are talking about a budget. We want initiatives.

Is he prepared to take this matter seriously and provide, particularly for the unemployed aboriginal and Metis youth, the opportunities that they deserve? Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, certainly we are very pleased that the unemployment rate in Manitoba is the lowest in the country at 5.4 percent, but we are not finished yet. We believe that it will go lower, that there has been-as I have indicated to him-10,000 new, permanent full-time jobs created in the last year and 35,000 new full-time jobs created in the last four years.

The Maple Leaf plant in his backyard in Brandon-actually, it is probably in Minnedosa constituency. I believe that they are taking a very proactive stance. The mayor of Brandon has indicatec: that they will do everything in their power to create employment for unemployed people in the Brandon area, and that includes any of the citizens who live in that area. Certainly in our discussions with the federal government, we will raise this issue and have them fulfill whatever commitments they can to create employment for aboriginal people. Mr. L.

Evans: Well, Madam Speaker, I ask the minister if he will acknowledge that Canada has transferred all responsibility for employment and training programs to the Province of Manitoba. Will he acknowledge that, and will he acknowledge that we need new employment initiatives in this budget-we are talking about a budget that is supposed to be coming down next week-to provide opportunities for our aboriginal people, opportunities that will enable them to get a job and raise their standard of living?

If we look at figures, look at the income figures and see the wide disparity that has remained for the last decade under this government. Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, that is precisely why you are going to see tremendous growth in the community colleges across this

562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 province. The Minister of Education and Training (Mr. McCrae) announced funding for colleges today, and I can tell him that the Assiniboine Community College in Brandon and the other community colleges are going to certainly take in more students in the next few years to train them. We anticipate there wiii be at least a thousand more students brought into that system to get training and find jobs that do exist here in Manitoba. Aboriginal Communities Skills/Occupation Needs Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, the government's own documents on high­ demand occupations in Manitoba indicate that in aboriginal communities, on and off reserve, in 1994 teacher aides, public health educators, social workers, addiction counsellors, et cetera, were all skills and occupations particularly required in aboriginal communities. In 1997, the same list occurs. In 1999, with one important exception, the same list occurs.

I would like to ask the Minister of Educati0n why, in the 11 years of this government, on ',his government's watch they have been unable to meet any of the needs of these high-need communit ies. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): The honourable member should be aware of something Nuala Beck said when she was taking

part in the millennium conference. She said that while 37.3 percent of the Canadian workforce is employed in high­ knowledge jobs, the number for Manitoba is 39.3 percent. I am a little disappointed because Ms. Beck also pointed out that we are second in the world to the Netherlands. I would appreciate it if we could work our way to being No. 1. That is why the announcement today which pays attention to the job market out there and the needs that are there in the job market, and in a very effective way, responds to it. Ms.

Friesen: Would the minister, who should be aware of the very clear differences and experiences between aboriginal communities and the rest of Manitoba, should be aware that his government's cuts-and will he confirm that those cuts to the Access programs have made it very, very difficult for aboriginal communities off reserve to meet the needs for training and for skills of those severely disadvantaged communities in Manitoba? Mr. McCrae: The last thing I would do, Madam Speaker, would be to accept something coming as it does from the honourable member on this topic.

Where was she when it came to offering praise to Anokiiwin school just the other day entering into a partnership with the Morris-MacDonald School Division to provide high school education for aboriginal people in Manitoba? Where is the praise that the honourable members opposite say will come when it is deserved? Well, it is certainly deserved and should be very much supported. I have not heard anything about that sort of private-public partnership that does so much for aboriginal people.

I have not heard any praise for the announcement today which provides for aboriginal opportunities in our community college sectors and the ongoing support through scholarships and bursaries for aboriginal and all Manitobans. I cannot understand the honourable me'llber's question, and I certainly do not accept the

preamble to it. * (1 430) Ms. Friesen: My final supplementary is to the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. I would like to ask the minister to tell us why his government apparently believed in 1997 that medical directors and medical doctors were required in aboriginal communities and that in 1999 they do not seem to believe that. It is not on the list anymore. Is this an error or does the minister truly believe that medical doctors are not required in aboriginal communities? Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I have no knowledge of the allegation.

I will take it under advisement and report back to the House. Child Poverty Rate Reduction Strategy Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, for one quick question. -

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 563 Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): In the 1995 provincial election, the government promised to make health, education and social services child­ centred, but since then cuts to health and education and children's services- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Martindale: This government cuts $23 million out of the welfare budget in 1996. The result is we have the highest rate of child poverty in Canada, the highest number of children in care and a thousand percent increase in children using food banks. Madam Speaker: Question.

Order, please. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. would appreciate the co-operation of all honourable members in allowing the honourable member for Burrows to quickly pose the last question of Question Period. Indeed, time has expired, but he had been recognized before the clock had expired. Mr.

Martindale: Why does this government, after 11 years in office, have no strategy for reducing the rate of poverty in Manitoba, given that the Social Planning Council, the National Council on Welfare and the United Nations last December all have condemned this province for their treatment of poverty and doing nothing? They have no strategy. When will they get a strategy? After 11 years, they have nothing. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I hear some of my colleagues indicate that I might be mad, but I am just extremely confused with the question that has been asked. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, Madam Speaker, I cannot understand how my honourable friend could say that 11,000 people who have moved off our welfare system and into the workforce is not a positive thing for the province of Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am sure that everyone wants to have the minister complete her response.

Could I please ask for the co­ operation of all honourable members in allowing the honourable Minister of Family Services to complete her response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. There is a definite difference between our government and the opposition, who still like to promote welfare as the option and the opportunity for the people of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, we believe that people deserve the opportunity to work and to be productive in our community and our society.

I make absolutely no excuses for working to try to ensure that people have jobs and have the ability to earn a higher income and move themselves out of poverty and into success and achievement. That is exactly the direction our government has taken with its economic policies that have allowed for the creation of jobs in Manitoba so Manitobans can work. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. The honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) on April 7 raised a matter of privilege respecting passage of the The Electoral Divisions Act.

Advice was given to the Chair by members, and I thank those members who provided advice. Did the honourable member for The Maples raise the matter at the earliest opportunity? Yes, he did, and therefore the matter meets the first qualification for one of privilege. Did the honourable member provide prima facie evidence?

564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 The member put forward the argument that there had been contempt of the Assembly because the legislation arising from the report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission was being presented to the House shortly before an election.

Joseph Maingot on page 13 of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada-second edition-gives this definition: "If someone improperly interferes with the parliamentary work of a Member of Parliament­ any of the Member's activities that have a connection with a proceeding in Parliament-in such a case that it is a matter involving parliamentary privilege. An offence against the authority of the House constitutes contempt." On pages 13 and 14, he goes on to say: "[P]rivilege is nevertheless subject to the practices and procedures of the House.

Thus allegations of breach of privilege by a Member in the House of Commons that amount to complaints about procedures and practices in the House are by their very nature matters of order." Therefore, in the matter raised by the honourable member, the parliamentary privileges of this House have not been breached; the motion put forward by the honourable member for The Maples cannot be accepted as a matter of privilege. *

(1440) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS National Organ Donation Discussion Day Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, I would like to draw your attention and that of all honourable members to an important event that takes place today. Today is the National Organ Donation Discussion Day. The idea is to raise the profile of organ donations and to bring families together to discuss their wishes on this topic. This way- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Could I please ask those members having private meetings to do so either in the loge or outside the Chamber so that other members may be able to hear the honourable member for St. Norbert on his member's statement. Mr. Laurendeau: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, today is National Organ Donation Discussion Day. The idea is to raise the profile of organ donations and to bring families together to discuss their wishes on this topic. This way, should a tragedy occur, the wishes of individuals are known, and the family members will not have to make hasty decisions.

If an individual wishes to donate organs, other family members will take comfort in knowing that they have carried out their loved one's final wishes. Madam Speaker, when a tragedy occurs, medical personnel and organ donor co-ordinators approach family members for the final consent. Whilst people may sign their organ donor cards, it is also important that family members are aware of their wishes. Time is of crucial importance in situations such as these. Organ donations require transportation and trans­ plantation, and organs deteriorate after a 24-hour period.

The odds of a successful transplant taking place increase dramatically when families make clear and quick decisi ons. Madam Speaker, currently there are 2,800 Canadians waiting for lifesaving organ trans­ plants. Although more than 21,000 Canadians have received organ transplants in the past few decades, hundreds of Canadians die every year while waiting for much-needed organs. We can help decrease these numbers by informing our family members of our wishes.

Madam Speaker, I urge all honourable members and all residents of the province to set aside time today to talk about organ donation with their loved ones to ensure that their wishes are understood and carried out. I would ask all my colleagues to consider becoming an organ donor. Thank you. Wasagamack Helicopter Accident Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I have a statement. -

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 565 Tomorrow, April 23, marks the first anniversary of the helicopter crash at Wasagamack. A year ago this tragedy took place in the communit y. The pilot, Jacques Nollette and two elders from the Wasagamack First Nation, Flora Harper and Bernadette Harper, were killed at that accident . The crash occurred just months after the crash at Little Grand Rapids of course, and for more than five years the provincial government has been claiming that all other northern Manitoba airport improvements are on hold due to the commitment for the Wasagamack project.

Last year, the very day before the crash, the band was sent a letter from INAC withdrawing support for the airport project. Since then the federal government agreed to assist the project after all and there has been some progress, but it is expected that it will be at least two to three years before the project is completed. We recommended a task force on northern airports, identified some serious shortcomings at many of these northern airports. Madam Speaker, the only response has been a commitment to have the federal government fund lighted beacons at 17 of these 22 airports.

For some five weeks a year or longer, all goods and people going in and out of Garden Hill, Wasagamack and other communities, St. Theresa Point, must use a helicopter as the airport is on provincial land across the lake from the community. Other concerns, from: the runway is too short to accommodate the provincial air ambulance, to: the MTS tower on the edge of the God's River airstrip, have not been addressed. So, Madam Speaker, I would like to extend, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, our sincere hope for strength for the families of the pilot, Mr. Nollette, and the two elders. Mrs.

Flora Harper's son, William Little, who spoke out on the issue last year, to Flora's husband, Epstein Harper, who survived the crash-we wish him continued good health-and Sam Harper who also survived the crash. We are indeed grateful that the Creator spared their lives so that they will be here to talk about this in a time to come and that the need for improvements in northern air transportation will perhaps be heard at some point by a caring government. Thank you. Winnipeg Police Service Anniversary Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, I rise to make a statement in regard to an event that is happening this year. I do not know how many chances I will get to make a member's statement, so I want to draw members' attention to the fact that this year is the 125th anniversary of the Winnipeg Police Service. I want to draw members' attention that it will also be the 75th anniversary of the Winnipeg Police charity ball coming up in May. Last year there was myself, the member nominated in Carman-! do not know what his present riding is-and I believe the member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh) were at the police charity ball last year. I hope as many members as possible will join in with the Winnipeg Police Service to join in this 75th anniversary of their charity ball and also to celebrate the 125th anniversary of the Winnipeg Police Service. In regard to the anniversary of the Police Service, many members may not know that at 130 Allard A venue there is a police museum. The curator, Staff Sergeant Jack Templeman, retired, would be pleased to show members around there.

I would encourage members to tour the police museum and also possibly take constituents and children who would be interested in seeing the history of the police service, a very proud history that I am proud to be a part of, Madam Speaker. So thank you for this opportunity. Order of Sports Excellence Awards Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Earlier this week I had the pleasure of representing Premier Filmon and the Honourable Eric Stefanson, Minister responsible for Sport, for the presentation of the Province of Manitoba's Order of Sports Excellence A wards at the Garden Valley Collegiate in Winkler.

I was delighted to extend very warm congratulations to the Garden Valley Collegiate Boys Basketball Team for winning the Provincial AAA Basketball Championship and to the Garden Valley Collegiate Boys Soccer

566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 Team for winning the 1999 rural Manitoba High School Soccer Championship. The Order of Sports Excellence consists of certificates and medallions for athletes and coaches who have excelled in their sport. Through the collective effort and hard work of the players and coaches, the teams were able to achieve great success. I would also like to take a moment to recognize all the students and staff who supported the teams throughout the year.

A winning team consists of dedicated and skilled players, but it also includes a group of committed and supportive school mates, teachers, administrators and family. I would like to congratulate the support group of these teams for their efforts. It is evident that the entire school has worked together to make the two teams a winning success . I am certain that their enthusiasm and support has been very much appreciated by the players and coaches alike.

Please join me in congratulating the Garden Valley boys basketball and soccer teams on achieving the province of Manitoba's Order of Sports Excellence and encouraging all Manitobans to participate in sports in this province. Thank you very much. *

(1450) National Child Care Conference Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, this morning, along with my colleagues from St. James and Burrows, I attended the opening ceremonies and keynote address of the 1999 national Child Care Conference co-hosted by the Manitoba child care association and the Canadian Child Care Association. The theme this year, the Spirit of the Village, reflects the belief that schools, child care centres, churches, government, community and family are all necessary partners in creating full and healthy lives for our children. The keynote speaker, Dr.

Gordon Cleveland, spoke on the benefits and costs of good child care, interestingly entitled­ subtitled, pardon me, The Economic Rationale for Public Investment in Young Children. Dr. Cleveland identifies several factors as straws in a wind that signify a changing attitude toward child care. He identifies shifting fiscal conditions, changing families and family needs and child poverty. He sees these as indications that Canadians and their governments may, once again, be concerned about child care. He believes the time is right for advancement but warns that we must move wisely and cautiously, Madam Speaker. Dr.

Cleveland made reference to many major studies which demonstrate the social and personal value of early childhood education . Most of them are familiar to us. His particular study was a cost-benefit analysis, and his basic conclusion is that the benefits exceed the costs by two to one. Furthermore, children, parents, family, society, and governments benefit as a result of a universal high-quality early childhood education. But the accents here are on universal and high quality, and the centrality of these factors suggest, as Dr. Cleveland made clear, that child care must not be left to the whims of the market.

In closing, I just want to add that experts are beginning to recognize early childhood education as perhaps the most important tier in our education, and given this awareness, Madam Speaker, I urge the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) to do something posthaste to address the near critical shortage of child care workers in our system. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, in discussions with the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton), what we will be doing this afternoon is calling for report stage on Bill 2.

That then will be followed by resumption of debate on second reading of Bill 17. REPORT STAGE Bill 2- The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of - -

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 567 Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) (by leave), that Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les circonscriptions electorales, reported from the Committee of the Whole, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. House Business Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, should debate on Bill 17 be completed before private members' hour, then I would ask that you call for second reading, Bills 4, 5, 6, and 11. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 17- The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on second reading on Bill 17, The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi electorale et Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales). Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I rise to speak on The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act. As we all know, the reasons for these amendments have to do with Judge Monnin's inquiry and his recommendations. I suspect that had there been no vote-rigging scandal in the 1995 election and no Monnin inquiry, we would not be debating any of these amendments during this session.

However, it is normal after an election for the Chief Electoral Officer to write a report and to make recommendations about amendments to legislation and in fact we did pass some amendments to the legislation after the '95 election. However, apparently we did not go nearly far enough. We did not even know that we needed to go further, but, as the result of Judge Monnin's inquiry, we have had to make substantial and considerable changes. I would like to look at Judge Monnin's recommendations and then ask the question as to why he recommended these particular items and then answer that.

The first recommendation was that the statute of limitations on prosecutions be extended to within one year from the date upon which the Chief Electoral Officer, quote: "has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that an offence has been committed ." Now why would Judge Monnin have made that recommendation? Well, it relates to the finding that Messrs. Sokolyk, Aitken, and Barrett broke

Section 145(1) of The Elections Act by inducing Darryl Sutherland to run. Now, the judge used rather polite language when he used the word "inducing ." Some people have suggested that it was really a bribe to run, which I suppose is a more technical way of saying that he was offered money in return for running. We know that he was offered a considerable amount of money, considering that he was on social assistance.

When you know that all of a sudden someone has a large sum of money, probably more than what his annual income was on social assistance, in order to be a candidate for five weeks, it certainly raised suspicions. But it did not take very long for people to find out in the Interlake what was going on because people were talking about what was really happening in the allegedly independent candidate's campaign and who was supporting him and who was financing him. It also relates to the findings that Sutherland, Wilson and McFarlane breached The Elections Finances Act.

None of these two individuals could be prosecuted because of the statute of limitations of two years from the offence. Now it is really quite unfortunate that it took so long for the offences to surface, for those offences to be investigated, and for an inquiry to be struck, not because there were not attempts made to have an investigation. In fact, there was a preliminary investigation, but it did not go very far. One of the reasons, of course, for that is that people were not very co-operative.

I understand, and I am going from memory here, that some people did not answer questions, but I believe it is also true that The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act at the time did not have enough power in order to force people to testify, and they could not compel the producing of documents. They did not have the power to subpoena witnesses and subpoena documents. I believe we have taken care of that. Had people been more forthcoming and had people

568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 told the truth, probably the original investigation would have gone a lot farther in 1995 , and we would have had these amendments behind us in 1995 . In fact, I think if the government has any regrets, they probably wish that the truth had come out in 1995, right after they won an election, rather than in 1998 and 1999, just before a general election.

The timing of these revelations is rather a nightmare for the government, I suspect, especially when you have a public inquiry that makes the news every night, and bad news for this government and for their party and for many individuals. The second recommendation was that the Legislature move rapidly when the Chief Electoral Officer requests an amendment to the relevant statutes. This refers to past delays in bringing forward amendments to election statutes.

It really should not be necessary for someone such as the Chief Elec toral Officer, who is independent of the government, who reports to the Legislative Assembly rather than to a minister, to have his or her recommendations not acted upon. I think that would be true whether it was the Chief Electoral Officer or the Ombudsman or now the Children's Advocate. Because of their independence and impartiality, I think we have to take their recom­ mendations very seriously.

Their recommen­ dations are public ones, produced in their annual reports, and it really is important that we as legislators act expeditiously on their recommen­ dations. Number three, Judge Monnin recommended that all parties prepare a code of ethics. Now I wonder why Judge Monnin had to do that. Well, I suggest it relates to the culture of the Tory party around the election scheme. *

(1500) An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Martindale: We have many examples. If the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) would like some proof, I would be happy to supply some proof. We have some quotes here from Judge Monnin's report, and I would like to read some of those quotes into the record because they are very succinct. I do not have a letter. I just have quotes from a report. For example, when Mr. Sokolyk was on the stand, it became fairly obvious, in his mind, that the end justifies the means. For example, he described the time outside of election as peacetime. One can only conclude from that, that according to his

definitions an election period is a time of war, and we know that wartime justifies almost anything in the minds of most people. We have seen lots of evidence that people in the Conservative Party felt that winning at any cost was acceptable. Then there is Mr. Benson who said, and I quote: "My only transgression in the whole affair was exercising poor judgment." He also said that not telling the Premier was another "bad decision." This was recorded in the Winnipeg Free Press on February 5, 1999.

So we have some people here who have problems with ethics, because in their mind it was only poor judgment, it was not a matter of right and wrong. Had they thought of things in terms of right and wrong, perhaps they would not have committed these offences in the first place. Then there is Mr. Kozminski, a well-known fundraiser and donor for the Conservative Party, who said, "Quite frankly, with my political leanings and what the NDP has done to this province over the years, I would do anything to take votes away from the NDP." This was in the Winnipeg Sun on February 10, 1999.

So here is an individual who was unusually candid and actually spoke his mind. We certainly do not agree with the contents, but Mr. Kozminski said something really quite offensive saying he would do anything to take votes away from the NDP. I think when people are into that kind of political culture, they certainly are willing to do anything to get elected, including inducing people to run, giving them money to run, deliberately trying to split the vote. There is really no end to what they might do if they believe that winning at any cost is acceptable.

It is quite disappointing that there is a lack of respect for other political parties, a lack of acknowledgement that the will of the people

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 569 should prevail, and that when people are defeated that you accept that, and from time to time governments are defeated because people change their voting patterns. I think it is normal to have a certain amount of respect for your opponents. I know that many people on election night when they lose an election, they go to their opponent's headquarters and congratulate the winner in person. I think that is the decent thing to do.

But if you consider that the other party are your enemies and that winning at any cost is acceptable, then why would you congratulate your opponent. You would not act in a civil manner if you believe that winning at any cost is acceptable or that elections are war. There are some members here who have never lost an election, so they do not know what it is like to go and congratulate their opponent for winning. [interjection] Oh, you are waiting for the congratulations, too. I get your point. Well, I would have to say it is not universally practised. An Honourable Member: Should be. Mr.

Martindale: But as the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) says, it should be. Then there is another well-known Conservative, Mr. Thorsteinson, who said, and I quote: My personal contributions to their campaigns were entirely appropriate and legal under The Elections Finances Act and were a private matter. The gist of it was it certainly cannot hurt the Tory candidate. It was no secret that a lot of the First Nations vote was in favour of the New Democratic Party.

Well, it is pretty sad when someone of that stature in the business community-well, formerly anyway-and in the Conservative Party­ at least formerly- thinks that what they were doing was appropriate and legal, because I think most Manitobans feel that it was inappropriate for one party to fund a second party in order to disenfranchise or split the votes or cause the defeat of a third party.

It is very sad that the people who were being used in this scheme are amongst the most vulnerable people in Manitoba, and they chose people rather deliberately that could be conned into running and thereby hoped that they might split the vote and cause a different outcome in those three ridings. You know, people have said to me, well, it is really no big deal because it did not change the outcome of the election in any of those ridings.

Well, had they been even marginally more successful in one of those campaigns, in the campaign in Swan River, the outcome would have been different because our MLA for Swan River only won by 36 votes in 1995. So had another party, an independent candidate, for example, got 18 more votes or 19 more votes, our candidate in Swan River would have been defeated. I think it would have been really embarrassing to have been the Conservative candidate and the Conservative MLA for Swan River and to have to sit in this Legislature for four years and then find out that they won a fixed election.

I think they probably would have resigned. They would have been so embarrassed if they had to sit here after the Monnin report came out because they had won a fixed election. It is probably a good thing that it did not succeed for the sake of their candidate if for nothing else. They certainly tried, but it is a good thing in many different ways that they were unsuccess ful. Then there is Mr. Barrett who really could not see the error of his ways and said, and I quote: I didn't do nothing wrong. Winnipeg Free Press, January 23, 1999. I think he meant he did not do anything wrong. I wonder if he gets it.

I wonder if he sees now that the inquiry is over and the judge's report is out and the damage that it caused to his political party that he still feels vindicated. I do not know how he could possibly feel that way. Then there is Mr. McNichol. I believe he was the lawyer for the Conservative Party at the Monnin inquiry. He said, and I quote: this inquiry is not about judging or commenting on matters of morality, ethics, political gamesman­ ship and political strategies. The plan was not illegal, it was just stupid. Well, I beg to differ and Judge Monnin begs to differ.

If it was not for comments like that, Judge Monnin would not have recommended that all parties prepare a code of ethics.

570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 Obviously, you know, the lawyer was trying to minimize this affair, which, of course, is what Conservative supporters do when they say-and I have heard people say this and some of it was reported in the Winnipeg Free Press-things like this: it was no big deal; this happens in politics all the time; or, why would you spend a million and a half dollars to investigate $5,000 of illegal spending, it is a waste of money. * (1 5IO ) Well, I think it does matter, because if you corrupt part of the democratic process, and not just any part of the democratic process but one of the fundamentals of democracy, namely, having a fair election, then nothing else matters.

If you corrupt election day, then the government is really governing for the next four years or five years without a legitimate mandate. As I suggested in my Throne Speech Debate, it is very ironic that Canada sends observers to other countries around the world to supervise elections to make sure that they are fair, and yet in Manitoba we have an attempt by the Conservative Party to corrupt an election in I9 95. I think it is quite appropriate that Judge Monnin recommended that all parties prepare a code of ethics.

This is really a matter of protecting all parties, not just the Conservative Party, from problems in the future. So all parties either have an existing code of ethics or they are going to draft a code of ethics, and this will protect people from getting into problems in the future. I think this is a good thing because people need to know in advance of elections what should be done and what should not be done, what is ethical and what is unethical. You know, being a signator on documents for Elections Manitoba is a big responsibility.

We who are elected really have to trust people who give us advice, because especially during an election, I guess less so after an election when maybe there is time to scrutinize all the documents, we as candidates are very busy knocking on doors and so we rely on our campaign manager. We rely on people who file documents on our behalf at Elections Manitoba to do the right thing and to make sure that those documents are in keeping with all of the requirements.

I think all of us appreciate those people who work in our campaigns and have to meet all of those reporting requirements because those requirements are really quite stringent. There are lots of documents that have to be filed, and they have to be done right. So any guidance that we can get in terms of a code of ethics is unfortunately needed because of what the Conservative party did in I9 95, but they are there for the protection of all of us in the future. Here is another one of Judge Monnin's findings on ethics.

I quote from his report on page II: "Political mores have reached a dangerous low when one party member can actively support his party but sees nothing objectionable in helping to finance and organize the candidate of a second party in order to harm a third party." This is really a direct reflection on people who gave testimony who said that they did not see any problem with that. Obviously Judge Monnin did, and he commented on it in his report. That is one of the reasons why he believed and believes that all parties must have a code of ethics.

He also said on page I3 , and I quote: "The attempt here at vote splitting . . . was in my opm10n clearly unethical and morally reprehensible." Now some people have said "vote fracturing." I believe that was the expression that some of the witnesses used. It kind of sounds like a technical term that people might not understand, and therefore they might not get the implication or they might think that it was not vote splitting for some reason because vote splitting is a very clear idea. But Judge Monnin said that it was clearly unethical and morally reprehensible.

He also said on page 55 : "I cannot ignore the fact that throughout this episode, especially during the investigation and at the hearings, some of these witnesses exhibited a degree of arrogance or an 'I know better' attitude." Now, I think that is a very significant comment from Judge Monnin because at the beginning it appeared that one of the witnesses was being given a rough time on the witness stand and did not appear to be a credible witness in the eyes of some people.

But by the end, by the time that parade of Tories had gone through the witness stand, I think a very different impression was created, that in fact Darryl Sutherland was the

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 571 credible witness and what he said stood up under cross-examination, but some of the other people were incredible witnesses or not credible witnesses because they were not forthcoming with the truth.

There is a considerable amount of documentation to show that when they were interviewed they were not forthcoming with the truth, that when they signed affidavits they were not telling the truth, and it was only when they took the stand and they could no longer deny the veracity of what was happening and what they did and what they had said that they were forced to ultimately tell the truth when they were subpoenaed and when they were under oath.

Judge Monnin also recommended that Elections Manitoba revise its reporting format and devise a method whereby all political parties and candidates properly record their sources of income and expenditure. Now why would Judge Monnin make this recommendation? Well, it relates to the findings by Monnin that Benson, Sokolyk and McFarlane participated in a cover­ up of financial records. We thought we had a little bit of information about what happened in the 1995 election in three ridings prior to April 1995.

We had no idea the extent of what was going on in those three election campaigns, and we had very little information about the extent of the cover-up. Why would that be? Well, it could be because we asked questions of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and others, and they said they did not know anything, but many of the key players knew lots but they were not telling. They were not telling the Premier, and apparently the Premier was not asking.

For example, Taras Sokolyk did not come forward with evidence to the Elections Manitoba investigation despite being asked to do so by the Premier and Barb McFarlane, the party's chief financial officer and le gal counsel . He instead enlisted the help of Jules Benson to cover up the transactions. Now, these are some of the people who are in big trouble now with the professional associations to which they belong, particularly Messrs. Benson and McFarlane who are going to be investigated by whatever committee it is that investigates professional misconduct.

They could very well lose their authority to call themselves chartered accountants, or some people may be facing worse consequences after the Monnin report is reviewed by a Crown Attorney from British Columbia. Mr. Jules Benson agreed to help Taras Sokolyk cover up the transaction by first depositing money orders to the PC account and then pulling out supporting documents and urging the campaign comptroller to keep them separate from the rest of the documentation being used for the Elections Manitoba return.

Well, you know, it would be very interesting to have been in the minds of these people while these things were going on and to know at what point did they real ize that they were doing something stupid, or at what point did they realize they were doing something unethical; at what point did they realize they were doing something immoral; at what point did they realize they were doing something that was illegal?

Then all of a sudden the wheels started to tum and they thought, oh, oh, I might get caught here; I guess I had better cover my tracks. [interjection] Some of them did not real ize it until they were on the witness stand when Judge Monnin was asking them questions, but, obviously, some of them had some thoughts about what they were doing during the election campaign because they started to cover their tracks, I guess hoping that they would not be traced. I think one of their major problems was that they thought it was okay unless they got caught.

However, it must have occurred to them that something was wrong, and they had to do something to make sure that they covered their tracks, so they started moving money around in various ways to hide what they were doing. Mr. Gordon McFarlane knowingly withheld supporting documentation from Elections Manitoba initially and later in 1995 and 1996, when there were additional requests for more complete information for the audit process. So at least by the time Elections Manitoba was asking questions in 1995, Mr.

McFarlane realized that he had a very serious problem and that if he actually came forward and told the truth and provided documents that he was going

572 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 to be in big trouble. So he withheld supporting documents. Mr. Monnin recommended that audit methods be improved and we can see why, because of the way that certain financial transactions were going on. Judge Monnin recommended periodic investigations and audits of the financial affairs and accounts of any registered political party and that these should be undertaken by Elec tions Manitoba. Judge Monnin recommended that candidates be compelled to keep all records and documents for a period of at least five years from the date of filing a statement or return.

Now, why would Judge Monnin recommend something like that? Well, it relates to the fact that a third of the financial records of the PC Party were lost up until near the end of the inquiry. It also relates to the fact that lost or destroyed documents was an excuse used by Sokolyk and McFarlane to cover up the transactions . * (1 520) That was a very interesting part of the public inquiry, when documents were requested and all of a sudden we heard that they had been lost. I guess maybe they thought that if they were lost, that was better for them.

However, they must have had second thoughts about this, too, and decided, well, maybe they should find them, and so a search was undertaken, and, no, they were not lost after all. But I wonder, were they misplaced or were they misfiled or did someone not know where they were? They must have had a lot of internal inquiries or they must have been scrambling internally to find all these lost documents. Maybe they just got lucky and the documents appeared. So the result is that Judge Monnin had to make a recommendation about that, too.

So we hope that in future this will never happen because all of us will have to keep records for five years. I would like to read into the record some of the comments that the judge made. However, there is one comment that I cannot read into the record because I rose on a point of order recently on it, and the Speaker took it under advisement, and we will have a written ruling by the Speaker on one of the comments in the Monnin inquiry.

It does seem kind of sad that something that is said outside of the Legislature cannot be repeated, and I actually thought that the govern­ ment member who spoke on my point of order was supporting what I was saying. However, Judge Monnin did say, and I quote: "It is disheartening indeed to realize that an oath to tell the truth means so little to some people." He said: "A vote-rigging plot constitutes an unconscionable debasement of the citizen's right to vote.

To reduce the voting rights of individuals is a violation of our democratic system." He also said: the basic "premise was that aboriginal people in these ridings had historically voted for the NDP, but 'the aboriginal vote' would be split if there were aboriginal candidates running. The attempt here at vote splitting . . . was in my opinion clearly unethical and morally reprehensible." It is too bad that the Conservative Party does not get it.

If they really want to split the NDP vote and garner aboriginal votes, they should get aboriginal people recruited as candidates from their party to run in winnable ridings. Now we know that they do recruit aboriginal people, but then they get them to run in hopeless ridings where they do not have a chance of getting elected, but if they had any serious intent to split the NDP vote and take it away, they would run aboriginal people in winnable seats for their party. I do not think we will see that for a long time.

Judge Monnin also said: "Political mores have reached a dangerous low when one party member can actively support his party, but sees nothing objectionable in helping to finance and organize the candidate of a second party in order to harm a third party." Now, I hope that theory has been put to rest forever, that no one will try anything that stupid again.

Judge Monnin said: "I cannot ignore the fact that throughout this episode, especially during the investigation and at the hearings, some of these witnesses exhibited a degree of arrogance or an 'I know better' attitude." I think I have already read that into the record, but it

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 573 certainly does not hurt to repeat some of these quotes. Judge Monnin also said: "A considerable amount of time, effort and money was expended by this Commission in order to confirm what should have been freely admitted at the outset." The bank records and other documentation of the PC Party of Manitoba election account and of other individuals had to be obtained and examined to find out what really happened.

So I think this is a good rebuttal to the people who say that this was a waste of money, that you should not spend a million and a half dollars to investigate $5 ,000. Judge Monnin is saying that it was not necessary in the first place if people had told the truth and produced the documents during the original investigation. Then there would not have been a pubic inquiry with a judge and all that expense. There are a lot of Tories that really do not get it.

I was at a banquet recently, and one of the backbenchers was regaling us with a story about people in his constituency saying, you know, $4,000 is no big deal, that is more than we spend on you in coffee in a year. Ha, ha, ha. I said: do not laugh. This is costing you votes. Oh, I forgot the second half of his quote which is also quite telling. His constituents said: if you wanted serious money, you should have asked us for $40 ,000 , and this is after the Monnin inquiry.

It is almost unbelievable that some Conservative Party supporters, even after what happened publicly in terms of the alleged vote­ rigging scheme in 1995, and after the questions in the Legislature in 1998, and the Monnin inquiry in 1998 to 1999, and Judge Monnin's report, and all the publicity and all the bad publicity for their party, still did not get it and thought that it is acceptable to make jokes about raising money for the Conservative Party to use in illegal ways.

I do not know how long it is going to take for them to get it, but they should be telling their supporters that this attitude is wrong rather than repeating it and trying to entertain other people with these kinds of ridiculous comments. Madam Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying that I hope that everyone here has learned a lesson because these things have an effect on all of us, not just on the Conservative Party, not just on government members on the other side, but they have an effect on all of us as elected people. It contributes to the cynicism of the public about elected people in our society.

It does not matter whether it is Conservative Party members going to jail in Saskatchewan or whether it is all the people that were forced to resign from the Mulroney cabinet in the federal government under Prime Minister Mulroney, but it contributes to the cynicism of the public regarding all of us as elected people, regardless of party. I get that when I go door to door in my constituency between elections and during election campaigns. I get people who say to me it does not matter, there is no difference between the parties.

We hear that, we hear that from Conservative Party members during their speeches and when they are heckling us, in spite of the fact that there are no comparable scandals on this side of the House. The two major scandals in the history of Manitoba, the building of this Legislature and the vote-splitting scandal, happened when the Conservative Party was in office, but, unfortunately, people generalize, and it hurts all of us as MLAs or as members of Parliament. I suspect it probably affects municipal officials.

That makes it harder to elect, not just to elect people, that makes it harder to recruit people to run for elected office. There are people in our society who have a considerable amount of prestige and job security who are very intelligent people who we want to have running for our party, and I am sure the Conservative Party wants those kinds of people, even the Liberal Party wants those kinds of people running. All parties want people who have public credibility, who are intelligent, who have good ideas, who are committed running for their party.

But when you go to meet with these people to try and recruit them, whether it is over lunch in a restaurant or at their home or at a party meeting, some of them are very reluctant to run. I think it is a good thing that we get as many people who are credible candidates to run as we do. But certainly things like the Conservative

574 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 Party vote-rigging scandal make it harder for us to recruit credible candidates to run for our party. I suspect that if I were to talk to members of the Conservative Party informally and off the record, they would admit that as well. They would admit that it hurts them too.

So we hope that this never happens again, that we never again in the history of Manitoba have a scandal of this magnitude, that people do not cover up, that people do not lie, that people do not obstruct justice, that people do not perjure themselves and that they do not commit these kinds of offences in the first place so that there does not need to be an inquiry by Elections Manitoba or a judicial inquiry. [interjection] And as the member for Thompson says, if we get rid of the Tories, that would help. Well, we know that political parties pay a price for this.

We know that people got pretty fed up with the shenanigans of the federal Conservative Party and the result was that they were almost wiped out. This is going to have an effect on the Conservative Party in Manitoba, because people are still talking about it, and they will pay a price for it. * (1 530) Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise to add my comments on Bill 17, The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Amendment Act.

This piece of legislation was of course made necessary as a result of actions by the members opposite, members of the Conservative Party and of course all of the people that were involved and implicated as a part of the Monnin inquiry report.

Now, this legislation has included a number of the recommendations by Judge Monnin and of course will hopefully go a long way towards resolving some of the problems that were since and subsequently found to be necessary as a result of limitations that were in place restricting or limiting the ability of Elections Manitoba to conduct elections in a fair and impartial manner and also to allow them the opportunity to take whatever legal steps were necessary to ensure that elections were run in that particular manner.

In this piece of legislation there will be changes, including the limitation for the period of prosecutions, which had been a problem. As a result of the Monnin inquiry, Judge Monnin indicated that there would be some difficulty in prosecuting individuals who were found to have broken the existing laws and created a problem in that there was a statute of limitation of , I think, two years, that would have since expired that would prevent any prosecution of individuals who broke the act.

That is unfortunate that there had not been some flexibility for them, but I understand that there is a special prosecutor who may be investigating these matters with respect to other charges that may be forthcoming which may also include per jury charges for members of the Conservative Party who were involved in perjuring themselves before the Monnin inquiry and during the course of the investigation by Elections Manitoba and its officers.

We will wait to see with great anticipation how that works its way through the process, and we trust that there will be an open process there to allow the public the opportunity to view very clearly the state of the investigations with regard to these special prosecutors' activities.

Under the Bill 17 changes that are occurring, of course, there will be a requirement now of maintaining of records that will require that the records from any particular election campaign for any candidate for the parties involved, anyone associated with the elections for those parties, or as independent candidates, that those records be maintained for a period of at least five years now, under this legislation, from the date the statement or return is filed, which will go a long way, I think, towards giving the investigating arms of Elections Manitoba or the courts if necessary to look at records to help them along with any examination for discovery if that should be warranted or necessary in the future.

This bill also goes towards inspections and audits and allows for greater processes to occur there. It will allow the Chief Electoral Officer or designate to enter onto a premise to inspect records and if necessary to obtain a search warrant to allow that process to occur, and also to make sure that there are no wild fishing -

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 575 expeditions that are undertaken, but that there would be serious concerns that would be investigated by Elections Manitoba. There was also, because there was a limitation on the period for prosecutions and that is going to be changed now so that the Chief Electoral Officer will have new powers so that the Chief Electoral Officer, when he or she discovers that there is reasonable or probable grounds to believe that an offence has been committed, that the period of limitation would commence from that point and it would now be one year from that particular time.

I hope and I trust that when the Chief Electoral Officer in the future, should this ever occur again, of course that this information would be public and that the Chief Electoral Officer would in the best tradition perform their duties within that particular new time frame that is being allowed for under this legislation. Now, Madam Speaker, this bill, I think it makes some very reasonable and responsible amendments to The Elections Finance Act and The Elections Act itself. I think these are reasonable amendments and would be supportive of these changes.

My one wish that when some of the hearings were taking place that some of the people that were part of the Monnin inquiry investigation in the ongoing examination and cross-examination that was occurring at that hearing that the members of the Conservative Party that were commenting had not been so hesitant and in fact had been so recalcitrant in their position in not wanting to comment openly and freely about their involvement in this election-rigging scheme.

One of the problems that I see that has occurred as a result of the Monnin inquiry and I have to go back to my early times coming to this particular Legislature that in 1990, and in fact in the year before that process even started to run in the election of 1990, I had decided after consultation with my family that I would become involved in the electoral process and would seek the nomination of my party for the community of Transcona.

Of course, my family was hesitant for me to become involved in that process knowing that there would be a considerable commitment of time and effort, and, of course, that has come to be true. It has taken a great deal of my time away from my family, and they have made the sacrifice probably more than I have.

In this occupation, I find-I thought coming to this place that it would be an honourable employment and a dignified employment in coming to this place and that I would be able to represent the wishes of the majority of my constituents, hopefully, and that they in return would provide me with advice and guidance along the way and constructive criticism if it was necessary and warranted, as sometimes it is. Sometimes we all need to hear that there are some things we have not done quite right or said quite right, and we hope that we have skins that are thick enough to listen to those concerns.

I do know that in talking with my constituents as this Monnin inquiry process has wound its way along, my constituents are telling me that they are quite distressed by what has happened. In many cases, they view the life of someone who comes to this place, into elected office, to be still an honourable employment or position in our society, and they would hope that the people whom they send to this particular Legislature would conduct themselves in the proper and appropriate manner.

They view that the activities of the Conservative Party and members of the government who were involved in this process have failed the people of my community and that they have destroyed the trust that we had and continue to try to work so hard to build between ourselves and our communities. Being in the occupation of politician is not always one that is viewed in high esteem.

Quite often, we make jokes about ourselves, and people make jokes about this occupation, as being not quite sure where it fits in the pecking order between lawyers, used car salesmen and dentists and whether or not a politician would be relegated to a position considerably lower than that particular pecking order.

That is the way my constituents have related and those are their comments that I put on the record here, not to denigrate in any way any of the people occupying or doing those particular employ­ ments, but that is what my constituents have said to me, no offence intended for the member opposite who came from that former life before

576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 he came here and before he became a minister of this Legislature. But those are the comments that have been said to me by some of my constituents. It is unfortunate that we have through this process had an undermining of our political and democratic processes and institutions in our province at a time when we are trying very hard to build up public confidence in our public system and in those who occupy the jobs of elected representatives for our communities. Then we have the Monnin inquiry that tears everything down that we have worked so hard to try and build.

One of the unfortunate parts of the inquiry-and I have read through the inquiry. I have read most, if not all, of the media reports with respect to the Monnin inquiry. I have listened and read some of the transcripts of individuals who have been involved in the Monnin inquiry investigation, and I am quite distressed by some of the comments that I find are occurring.

One of the things that I find most distressing is the fact that when we come to run as candidates within a particular political party to represent or try and represent the communities in which we are seeking election, that we do so in a manner that, yes, we would fight the election campaign on the issues that are important to our communities and we would put forward our positions, our platforms, our principles or our values that we hold near and dear to ourselves and in our lives and that the public then would determine who would be the best representative for their community based on those values. *

(1540) What I am distressed by is that the comments that I heard coming from the Monnin inquiry and that I continue to see here in responses to some of the questions that were raised here just this week with respect to the way the government has handled its affairs, that there does not seem to have been a lesson learned through the Monnin inquiry process.

The people in the inquiry-and I can only think back to one Robert Kozminski who is a well-known member to the Conservative Party, who is a member of the PC Manitoba Fund, I believe, and one of the chief fundraisers for the Conservative Party for a considerable number of years; in fact, it has even gone back into decades. Now I know Mr. Kozminski and his particular car dealer business here in the city of Winnipeg, in fact right in my own community of Transcona- An Honourable Member: Big Bob. Mr.

Reid: Big Bob, as my colleague references, when he was on the witness stand during the Monnin inquiry referenced: I will do anything that it takes to defeat the NDP. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): That is one time he was honest, the only time. Mr. Reid: Perhaps he was honest, and we have to take him at face value. The retired Justice Monnin did not say that statement was not untruthful; in fact, I think he believed it was truthful because he even referenced that comment in his recommendations. What I find distressing is that Mr.

Kozminski has his business in the community of Transcona taking money from the very people whom he is working against. So he is making his profit on the backs of the working people, those NDPers that have elected their representatives to come to this Legislature, members for Transcona, Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), Concordia (Mr. Doer), Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), and Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak)- Mr. Ashton: Maybe we should let the people in Transcona know. Mr. Reid: I can assure my colleague for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) that is one of the concerns that has been raised by constituents of mine who have called me and made comment to me about Mr. Kozminski's actions in this election-rigging scandal and this election bribery scandal that we have here as a result of the Conservative Party involvement. You would think that Mr. Kozminski would have some common sense to think that you do not dump in your own nest. Here is where I am getting my money from. These are the people who are buying my vehicles, and yet I am going to take their money that they have given me

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 577 from the profit on those sales. I am going to give it to the Conservative Party to undermine the democratic electoral process that my people in my community think is there and is fair for them and that they will have an equal opportunity to cast their votes, as any other member of that constituency or any other elector or voter in the province of Manitoba. Yet there does not seem to be a grain or even a sense that I get of understanding or caring of what it is that the Conservative members and party have done to undermine the electoral process in this province.

You and your supporters have taken steps to say to the people of Manitoba that the electoral process does not matter. You as Conservatives, in other words, will do whatever it takes to win an election campaign. Now I have absolutely no fault with you going into an election campaign the same way as we would and fighting election campaigns fairly based on the issues that are involved in the campaign and the issues that are important to our community.

I have to look at the Conservative co-chair sitting in the front rows here, the former Deputy Premier, and the one in the back, the other co-chair of the election campaign for the Conservative Party- An Honourable Member: How did that election turn out, anyway? Mr. Reid: Well, if you want to go back to that election, I guess, if it was not for your untruthfulness dealing with the Jets issue and your election bribing activities, you would not be in those benches. You would be in these benches over here. So we went to the public in Manitoba and we told the truth. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. An Honourable Member: I cannot hear, Madam Speaker. Mr. Reid: I find it interesting, Madam Speaker, that as we are going through this Bill 17 now, we have been on this-and I am not sure if this is our second or third day of debate--but the member who is now retiring, the member for Arthur­ Virden (Mr. Downey), has not spoken on this piece of legislation, and he is supposed to be the lead person.

The person involved with the ethics of the Conservative Party has not even put on the record what the ethics change of your party is going to be with respect to the upcoming provincial general election. Now, perhaps it is not important to you and perhaps someday we will see the member for Arthur-Virden on the witness stand. I mean, we saw what happened in Saskatchewan with Grant Devine's government. Of course, Mr. Devine has yet to be called to the stand to give any testimony, and, yes, he had the same set of blinkers on. He did not know anything that was going on in his government.

But I can tell you that perhaps that new wooden jail that you are building over in Fort Garry would be a reasonable way for you to house your people in the future, the PC pen. Considering what Saskatchewan has had to do when they have, I believe, had to build new jails for members of the Conservative Party in that province. An Honourable Member: They might win the prison vote. Mr. Reid: Perhaps, and I know some of my colleagues have referenced how important the prison vote is and that perhaps you will have a chance to influence the prison vote in the future. We will see as time goes on how that progresses.

I look only to the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), who is-it is funny too that she announced her retirement after the Premier made the cabinet shuffle so that she could stay in cabinet. I am just wondering if there was a little discussion between herself and the Premier that perhaps the member for Fort Garry knows a little bit more about the Premier's involvement in this bribery, election-rigging scandal than what is being let on here. I am not worried about what the member for Arthur-Virden thinks with respect to what the future holds for me or what it does not hold for me.

What is important here is that I come to this place having fought the issues of the election campaign openly and fairly and let the electorate of my community of Transcona decide who is best to represent that community, not rigging the election campaign to get to this

578 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1999 place. If I ever have to be put in a position of making that decision, I will tell you, I will leave this business. I will never run for an election campaign where I do not have to be open and fair with the constituents who are there to elect their representative here. I do not need to cheat to come to this place; I will go someplace else and find other employment if somebody asks me to take those steps. I am not going to be involved or stoop to your level.

Yes, I put it on the record, and I thought long and hard about what I was going to say for this particular piece of legislation. I think it is important that we do represent the viewpoints, the principles, and the values that we hold very near and dear to our hearts and that we tell the electorate what is important during an election campaign, what is important to us, and then let them make the decision.

I do not think there is a need to have to take those $5,000 to try and give it to somebody as an inducement, as Judge Monnin called, or a bribe, is the synonym for that particular term, to encourage somebody to run in an election campaign. When you talk about what has happened here in convictions in the province of Manitoba, going back to 1995, I believe, I think the Liberal Party was convicted of trying to encourage or bribe one Joe Anderson of running to try and drop out of the election campaign. So they are not lily white in this process either.

They have been convicted already, and now so has the Conservative Party. * (1 550) It is interesting to note too that Judge Monnin at first, and I was quite distressed by what I had heard at the beginning of the Monnin inquiry. Retired Justice Monnin indicated-! was quite distressed by the treatment that I saw Darryl Sutherland have to endure both at the hands of the Conservative Party and in the opening statements that were made at the Monnin inquiry. At first I saw a young man who had probably little opportunity to better himself in life.

Then someone in the Conservative Party had the gall to use this individual, Darryl Sutherland, as a pawn in your political process to try and split the vote, and then to have the Conservative Party and the Premier of this province say that Darryl Sutherland was a liar and that there was no basis for his allegations. When the Premier said he went out and investigated this matter and the only person we subsequently find out or he says that he talked to was one Taras Sokolyk.

When Darryl Sutherland appeared before the opening of the inquiry and the comment that was made by retired Justice Monnin that I believe, if I am not accurate in paraphrasing, what Justice Monnin said: Darryl Sutherland, how can you expect me to believe what you are saying here?

And then, as the inquiry proceeded along its route and in the days that passed, to have all of Darryl Sutherland's testimony supported tenfold, it distressed me to see that Darryl Sutherland was treated so shabbily at the beginning of that inquiry and that we saw no apology come forward to Darryl Sutherland as a person for being used by the Conservative Party, the members of the government opposite, and that there was no apology that was given at that inquiry for the way that Darryl Sutherland was treated by those that were conducting the inquiry.

I was embarrassed by our political process to see someone appearing before the inquiry questioned in such a fashion. Darryl Sutherland, an individual who was on welfare, I believe is still receiving social assistance, living on, as the inquiry states, $112 every two weeks, being approached by one Roland Cubby Barrett, and we will get onto Cubby Barrett's role in a few moments, and Darryl Sutherland being asked by Cubby Barrett and perhaps Allan Aitken to consider running for the Independent Native Voice Party.

Darryl Sutherland had $1 12 every two weeks of income, suddenly, mysteriously having $5,000 to put towards his own election campaign as the Conservative Party members claimed, having the signs and buttons paid for by the Conservative Party supporters, having a U-drive car made available by the Conservative Party. An Honourable Member: Was it a Budget Rent-a-Car? Mr. Reid: No, it was not a Budget Rent-a-Car. I believe it came from Vickar Chev Olds in Transcona as well. So it is interesting. I am wondering if one Bob Kozminski walked down

April 22, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 579 the street and talked to members of that or whether it was perhaps a legitimate business transaction. Perhaps Bob did pay for it as well. How can one actually say and stand before an inquiry that Darryl Sutherland had his own resources to be able to run as a candidate, for a person who was making $112 every two weeks? How would you ever anticipate that the public could ever believe that?

Some of the comments that were made by your long-time supporter and another PC Party fundraiser, Roland Cubby Barrett, who, it is interesting to note too that it was just a short time after the '95 election and we knew that there were some problems involving the now Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) and his former colleague, the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), in some of the discussion that has been happening around the involvement of those two and Mr. Barrett with respect to Natural Resources in this province.

We know those stories as well and your involvement in those activities, and that full story has not come out yet, so you can be on notice that somewhere down the way that story may come out and you will be part of that process. But one Roland Cubby Barrett, by his own Premier standing there, and we have pictures of the Premier handing to Cubby Barrett the honorary life membership to the PC Party for his involvement, his good works on behalf of the Conservative Party of Manitoba. [interjection] I am not sure who Bill Moore is and perhaps you can refresh my memory.

Well, let me tell you, I have been in this place since 1990. I can only represent the time that I have been here. I cannot answer for people who were here before me, and I cannot answer for people who will come to this place after me. I can only answer for my time here, my involvement in the activities here and any chance that I might have to influence any of the proceedings that would occur involving how we get to this place and our activity while we are here and how we conduct ourselves when we are here.

But to see the Premier handing an honorary life membership to Cubby Barrett for his work and then to see the Monnin inquiry report, where he said he has never seen a bigger bunch of liars in his entire career on the bench, and then to see the Premier of the province of Manitoba handing this honorary life membership to Cubby Barrett, proud of what Mr. Barrett has done on behalf of the PC Party of Manitoba, are you not repulsed by that, by having your Premier, your Leader involved with a person who has been found guilty?

If you are not, then that in itself is a statement of your ethical and moral values coming to this place. Well, I know the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) just came back from a winter vacation with Cubby Barrett, where they were probably lathering sun oil over each other while they were lying on the beach of Cuba together.

It is interesting to think what stories they were exchanging during their flight down and their subsequent time together perhaps over dinners in the restaurant and in their time walking through the communities in Cuba, what stories they might have been exchanging, how they are going to work together in the future and how they are going to help each other out in this process.

Yes, it is quite interesting that the Premier was going to distance, so-called distance, himself and his party from any involvement for people who were implicated and convicted in the Monnin inquiry report, and yet that does not seem to be occurring. So on