LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell): The Ho nou rable Mem ber for River Heights. MR. GARY FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Petition of The Congregation Shaarey Zedek, Praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act to amend, revise and consolidate

An Act respecting the Congregation Shaarey Zedek. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. ASS'T CLERK: Petition of Investors Syndicate Limited and Others, Praying for the passing of The Investors Syndicate Limited Act, 1980. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution and directs me to report same and ask leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Ho nourable Member for Virden, that report of Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minis ter of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Public Schools Finance Board for the year ending December 31, 1979. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I beg to table the report of the Manitoba Water Commi ssion entitled Mercury in the Environment. This report was printed in February of this year and I apologize for the inadvertent delay in tabling, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . .

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. FILMONintroduced Bill No. 53, The Winnipeg Foundation Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Mini ster of Economic Devel opment. Can the Minister of Econo mic Development advise when he first became aware that Beaver Lumb er was inte nding to tr ansfer its accounting office, involving some 50-plus employees, from Manitoba to Toronto? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Economic Development. HON. J.

FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): I haven't been made aware of it by Beaver Lumber, I've had no commun ication with them at this time. I will make a point of having somebody in the department contact them to see if the statement is correct. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have in may hands a press release from Beaver Lumb er issued 11 :00 o'clock this morning. I'm rather taken aback that the Minister is still unaware of the fact Beaver Lumber is transferring 50-some of its employees from Winnipeg to Toronto.

I wonder if the Minister could advise, and I will forward to him a copy of the Beaver Lumber press release of this morning, if the Minister could advise what steps he intends to undertake in order to attempt to di ssuade the transfer of Beaver Lumb er's accounting office from Manitoba to Toronto by the end of August of this year. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, this morning at 11: 00 o'clock I was at the Odeon Theatre as all the media well know and the Member for Kildonan knows, we were presenting to the Ind ustry of Manitoba the Tourism Program for the province of Manitoba for 1980. Now Mr.

Speaker, the Beaver Lumber Head Office for Canada has been in Toronto for a long time and I am not aware of anything the province of Manitoba can do to force them to stay but we certainly will be in contact with them this afternoon and di scusss the possi bil ity of them staying or the reasons why they are making the change. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the Minister, I would ask the Min ister if in his discussions with Beaver Lumber he could acquaint himself with whether or not the present economic climate created by three years of his government, with the drop insofar as economic growth in this province, the projected lack of job creation during 1980 and the depopulation which took place last year, has not contributed to the situation by which Beaver Lumber has announc ed its intention to transfer from Manitoba to Ontario. 3037

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the economic situation the Honourable Leader of the Opposition talks about is that the Conference Board of Canada says Manitoba will be the third largest economic increase in Canada this year, 1. 83 times higher than the national average only behind Al berta and Saskatchewan. If he wants to read it his colleague the Member for from Brandon East had it yesterday, the figures he read out out of six figures five of them were up and, as a matter of fact, the employment will be up also according to these figures. It will be up by one point ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to the Honourable Minister that replies to questions should be as brief as the questions themselves. The Honou rable Minister of Eco nomic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, my answer was only the same as the Leader of the Opposition, who was criticizing the province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to the Honourable Minister that he take the advice of the Chair quite wisely and use it. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the Honourable Minister has the information in front of him, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could confirm that if you averaged out for 1978, 1979, 1980, that Manitoba is the second lowest in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that confirmation does not seek information in this House and the question is out of order. The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to dir ect a question to the Minis ter for Natural Resources.

I wonder whether the Minister has a report from the com mit tee to set up plans for drought contingency in the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourble Minister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder when the committee to set up contingency plans for drought possi bili ties in the province of Mani toba was designated by the Minister. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Member for lnkster is making an assumption which is perhaps not true at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for lnkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, am I to understand from this Minister that despite weather conditions that have existed in the past year and despite the existing situation that the government has not yet set up a committee to consider the contingencies of a drought taking place in the province of Manitoba? Is that what I am to understand? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I think that the Honourable Member for lnkster is probably quite aware, having been the Minister respsonsible for Water Resources for some number of years, that the planning that takes place or needs to take place for drought conditions is the sort of thing that is basically in place and it simply only requires that the switch be turned on, as it were, Mr. Speaker, and that it's quite a similar situation to that of flood fighting or forest fire fighting. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for lnkster with a further supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, on the same question and despite the assumption of the Mini ster, my recollection is, and I ask the Minister whether it is not so, that the last time this contingency prevailed the government set up a commit tee to discuss contingency of floods taking place in the province of Manitoba; it does not happen by itelf and I gather from what the Minister is saying, is that he thinks it takes place by itself and there is no necessity for the government to deal with it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I believe the question period is a time for asking questions rather than makin g statements.

Has the honourable member a question? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister gave information to the House that a committee of that kind clicks into place naturally, and my question is: Is that his assumption and is it not the case that it there is requir ed governmental action for the pur pose of dealing with such a conting ency committee? That is my question. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, it wasn't the same question he asked the first time but so be it, and he misinterprets the statement that I made.

I did not say that it was some thing that clicked into place automatically. I said that the preparation, the sort of planning that has to go on, the framework is essentially in place and when it becomes a matter of implementing, of undertaking action, then of course it requires some action on the part of the Minister and of the Cabinet. His previous question, Mr. Speaker, was asking me to provide him with information of the events that took place when he was Minister of the Department. I think, Mr. Speaker, that he surely should be aware of the action that he took when he was Minister. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if I can ask the indulgence of the House to correct an oversight. Before we moved ·into the question period I should have introduced members to the guests we have in the gallery. In the gallery on my left we have 35 students of Grades 7 and 8 standing from the Alsen Public 3038

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 School in North Dakota under the direction of Mr. Selvig. In the gallery to my right we have 35 guests from the Manitoba Municipal Secretary-Treasurers Association. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. QUESTION PERIOD (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister of Agriculture whether he can confirm that while he was a participant on a radio talk show yesterday, he indicated to a caller that a woman in her own right could be a contract holder with the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation. Would he confirm that, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, subject to further review of hearing what was actually the specifics of the tape, I don't believe that I indicated that she would, in that particular case, be eligible for crop insurance but referred it to getting the name of the individual and discussion with the Crop Insurance as to why or why not that particular individual would be eligible or not eligible. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, could the Minister explain to the House just what the circumstances would be that would di sallow any lady from participating in Manitoba Crop Insurance? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that there could be many reasons as he is well aware of the fact that certain people, whether they are man or woman, under certain circumstances because of the history of the individual within the contract or that particular program, there may be reasons why they may not; but as far as a person farming, there's no discrimination whether it is a man or a woman as far as being involved or ins uring a crop if they're actually a producer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final supplementary. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I hope it's not a final one because the deadline date for Crop Insurance is tomorr ow and this person wishes to insure her production for 1980 with the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation. I wonder whether the Minister could either indicate to the House why it is thatthis individual is not eligible because it is my understanding that she has never been in contract with the Crop Insurance Corporation before and this is a brand new transaction that she is being denied. I think the Minister owes us an explanation and indeed should move to make certain that the deadline tomorrow doesn't deny her a contract.

MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, it came from a phone-in show yesterday in which I said I would get the specific details. That is taking place at this particular time. There still is the rest of today and tomorrow for that individual to be let known whether they qualify and, in fact, I would be able to provide the details of the reasons why or why not that particular individual would not be insured.

I don't think there is any reason why there shouldn't be public knowledge of that particular policy of the crop insurance, which in fact hasn't changed I am sure, who is eligible for insurance or who is not, over the past many years.

I would also like to add in reference to the member saying that the deadline is the 30th of April that I have last week, in reference to some of the questions from the Mem ber for lnkster, I have in fact last week put out a press release advising farmers to consider crop insurance or in fact make any changes in crop insurance that would allow them coverage because of the need for an assurance of some income, whether it be from crop insurance or grain production this coming year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a further supplementary. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister aware that as of this morning the Crop In sur ance Corporation continues to refuse, as of this moment as a matter of fact, to insure this lady, and certainly he ought to explain to the House why it is that it's the government's policy not to allow women to participate in the crop insurance program? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, if it is in fact - I don't accept the premise that it is - that they are refusing to insure people who are eligible whether they be a man or a woman that in fact that policy hasn't changed from the time when he was Minister, and if that policy is in place, was in place by him, I am sure it will be changed. As far as the specific case, I will say once again that it is under review and if there are reasons that are not satisfactory to me, that they should be changed, then I would take the proper procedures to do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture too and normally at this particular time of year when we're still ice bound, I find it odd to be looking at crop failures, but I wonder if the Minister could inform the House what steps or what action his department has taken in connection with a possible drought this year. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as I said earlier that we did put out a press release last week and giving broad provincial coverage as far as the media is concerned, to inform the farmers that the 30th of April was the deadline to partici pate in crop insurance, that serious consideration should be given as far as being involved so that they could allow some form of protection whether in fact they get that income from crops or whether they get it from the Crop Insurance Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Fort Rouge. 3039

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, may I draw to your attention some errors in the Hansard of April 23rd. This was an occasion on which I spoke in French and the French reported - I admit that my French is imperfect but I don't think it's as bad as it seems here.

The wordFrancais is consistently spelled without a c; they seem to have abbreviated words by leaving out most of the es in the entire passage which leads to some interesting reading; they suggest that I suggested that the Yvettes of Quebec were assaulted when I suggested that they were insulted and where I describe myself as the only Liberal, they describe me probably quite accurately as the Liberation of this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I find the

interpretation that is given to Hansard to the wording that is spoken in this House; if the wording is rather unclear I would suggest that members should not really blame the Hansard staff, maybe its their own enunciation that may be at fault. If there are faults in spelling, then I apologize for it. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: On the same point of privilege, I notice in the comments that I made in French, it's just horrible and I would also - (Interjection)- if that's what I said, Mr.

Speaker, what's in the Hansard, I apologize because it's just terrible, the spelling and the whole works. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minis ter of Government Services. RETURN TO AN ORDER - ORDER FOR RETURN NO. 2 HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if, by leave, I'd be given permission to table with the House an Order for Return No. 2 dated March 10, 1980 on the Motion of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. SPEAKER: Has the member leave? (Agreed). ORAL QUESTIONS (contd.) MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour and I would like to ask him, with respect to the Manitoba Hydro Project in Great Falls, why the rates of pay for workers on this Hydro project are less than that required under the regulations passed by authority of The Construction Industry Wages Act which he is responsible for; and as a specific, Mr. Speaker, I would ask him why the wages paid for labourers at 6.56 per hour on site are lower than that required under the Act, namely 8.82 1/ 2 per hour which is the latest rate approved by regulation of this Minister and this government? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): I'd like. Mr. Speaker, to have the member clarify which particular Act he's dealing with. There's three sets of wages that are established by the government: one rural, one the heavy construction outside the city and one the heavy construction inside. If he!d tell me which one he is referring to. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I am referring to the aspect of the regulations which refers to major building projects and it is defined in the regulation as the construction of or any addition to a power generating station and Mr.

Speaker, given that, in the case of the Great Falls plant they are adding to and constructing a dam which is attached to a power generating station, I would think this Act should apply, and I would ask the Minister, as I've already indicated, why the wages paid on site are lower than the ones required under the Act and under the regul ations passed by this Mini ster and this government. I would also ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, since he has not answered the first question, why the workers on site are required to work 50 hours per week before overtime, rather than the 42 1 /2 hours before overtime required by theregulations; and Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister not to consider as a possibility even that they would be able to get an exemption under the regulation where it indicates that where work camp is est abli shed that the employers and the employees may agree to have longer working hours because, Mr.

Speaker, in this case there is no work camp established and there would be no way in my opinion that the Minister could give authority to the contractor on site to require the emplo yees to work longer than that which is acceptable under the regulation. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Min ister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly can't take the facts as presented by the Member for Rupertsland to be facts. He has quite a history for giving statements that are less than factual. I notice one of the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR.

PETER FOX: I'd ask the Minister of Labour to retract. He's making a direct accusation that one of the members of this House is not telling the truth. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I suggest to the Honourable Minister that he choose his words rather wisely in this Chamber. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Rupertsland posed a question the other day in relationship to the same operation where he was claiming that local people weren't being employed and it was out of province and, in fact, I think Hansard will say that he was talking about immigrant people, referring to people outside the country. I'm trying to get all the information for him and that will be established that his assumptions in that case 3040-A

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 which he presented to the House and got good press coverage certainly weren't facts, and that's what I was trying to relate to him. In this particular case I know that the operation that he's talking about was not considered new construction, so technically, and I'll try and get him a technical legal opinion as to why the Act, the reg ula tions, don't apply to that operation. But I remember, and it was some time ago, it was - I'm guessing - approximately 14 months ago or a year ago that contract was settled. The unions involved negotiated a contract with the project, with the Hydro.

That's the same system, Mr. Speaker, as had in place in northern Manitoba many years ago when the Trades Council negotiated the - again, I'm guessing - it was an eight of ten year agreement with Manitoba Hydro in northern Manitoba. The same sort of agreement has been established in this project. Now why there is a variation with the wages, and what particular Act the members deal with, I will endeavour to read Hansard in a day or two when it comes out and establish, for his information, exactly what's taking place in that project and why the rates are what they are. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Mem ber for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, in reference to the Minister's comments about my question the other day, I might point out that I still have not received an answer and I asked for the Minister of Hydro to check it out and he still has not answered me. So, Mr. Speaker, with respect to that issue I know that my questions in this House . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. We're dealing with question period. Does the honourable member have a question? MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order then, the Minister indicated to me that there was some answers to questions that I posed in the House and I have not yet received the answers. So what is he referring to? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member does not have a point of order; order deals only with procedure in the House. The honourable member with a question. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I know my actions in this House resulted in 10 more local people getting jobs this Monday on that project. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

My supplementary question is, would the Minister in checking out the information which I have presented to the House with respect to wages on that project, in checking it out, explain why in this case the wages of the workers, by whatever agreement they may have come to through a union or whatever, could possibly be lower than that which is required in the regulations, since I believe the Act states that no agreement can be made which would result in the employees getting paid a lower wage than that which is established by regulation, and the regulation is one which was passed by this Mini ster and this governemt and it requires the workers to be paid a certain amount and they are not being paid that.

MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Rupertsland uses the appropriate words when he says, I suspect or I understand. That allows him the latitude to make the suggestions that he's making. I have said that I am trying to put together the answers to his question the other day. I'll endeavour to get the answer to this particular question and I'll also check out why 10 people were employed, supposedly because of his efforts last Monday. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to dir ect my qu estion the Hono urable Mini ster of Economic Development and Tourism.

The Minister who claims to be very concerned about tourism creating jobs for Manitobans. Could that Minister, who appears to have that concern, explain to the House why an attempt to promote tourism and to create jobs he had to go to the United States of America to buy these Made in USA buttons, rather than buying them made in Manitoba. And why, rather than buying local manufacturer stickers, Good to See You, Friendly Manitoba, again, they appear to be made in the United States of America and not in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Tourism. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Bu rrows with a supplementary? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary question to the Minister of Economic Devel opment and Tourism. I'd like to ask the Minister whether there are or are not factories in Manitoba capable of manufacturing and printing metal or paper stuff such as he has. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the advert ising agency asked for tenders on this material and they suggest -(Int erjection)- no, the tenders were available to everybody. We don't have an iron curtain around this province and we accept tenders from everybody, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact we have made every effort to try and see if we can change it to the hopefully Manitoba or Canadian manufacturer, but at the present time the price was such that it couldn't be ignored. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Minister of Tourism for the packs of goodies that 3040-B

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 he gave us and I'd like to ask him a question. On this indicator that we have, it's today's value of the U.S. dollar, I saw that the Minister of Finance had 1.16 for the day. The maximum that it goes to 1. 23. I wonder, does the Minister have knowledge that this is the maximum that it's going to go to or is that wishful thinking at this time? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not in any position to know why it goes to 1. 23 and I have no idea whether it will or it won't, but what does really make me feel bad is the op position of this government don't really seem to care if we encourage tourism in this province or not and, obviously, are trying to do everything to run it down. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I resent the answer of the Minister. If he wanted to answer to the previous member, that's his business.

My question was a valid one; I think that if you give the information, it has to be proper information and I was just happy to know that it wasn't going to reach anything over 1. 23 and I wanted to be sure, to be reassured of that. It doesn't mean I'm not interested. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono u rable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a qu estion for the Min ister in charge of Corrections.

Could he advise as to the number, if any, of breakouts that have occurred in the last 12 months at Bannock Point and as to whether those breakouts have caused any difficulties at the cottages at Betula Lake and if so, what is he doing to prevent further breakouts? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Community Services. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I'll take the honourable member's question as notice. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Acting First Minister.

In view of the fact that the President of the Manitoba Progressive Conservative Party has now endorsed the federal New Democratic Party proposal of an electrified public transit system in Winnipeg, I am wondering whether he can confirm that this government will now assist the city of Winnipeg in the establishing of such a system. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, I would remind the Member for Rossmere that we once had an electrified system for transportation in the city of Winnipeg and I presume the credit for that probably went to the city council of the day that put it in, perhaps about 1920, and I'd be more inclined to give the credit to the city council here, at the present time, for att empting to pursue greater measures in the interests of conservation that they are now attempting to pursue. We are supportive of their efforts and we'll give them every possible encouragement we can for their pursuit of it. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. Could the Min ister advise as to whether, in addition to giving credit and encouragement to the city, it would provide funding for such a project? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'd be very surprised if we didn't have an approach with regard to funding, and I suppose when we have that we'll deal with it in the course of its arrival. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Labour and ask the Minister whether hehas seen a report that apparently was prepared late last year on the deplorably high rates of unemployment in the inner core of the city of Winnipeg. I believe the incredible figure shows an unemployment rate of 55 percent. I wonder if the Honour able Minister can advise whether he's had an opportunity to study the report and whether he agrees with this assessment of 55 percent unemployment. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I have not had the opportunity to review the report, I've asked for a copy of it. I think the information has come to my attention possibly about the same time as it came to the school board in Winn ipeg and the same time it came to the Member for Brandon East. I haven't had an opportunity to review it to see if there's any worsening of that particular situation. We all know that the problem in the inner core of the city of Winnipeg has been with us for a good period of time and once I've had an opportunity to review it I'll be able to comment further on it. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased that the Honour able Minister will take time to review the report. Upon assessment of the report, would he be prepared to consider special employment programs, some type of program perhaps in co-operation with the city of Winnipeg, that at least to some extent will alleviate this deplorably high rate of unemployment, given, I think, the assumption that it's much better to be employed than to be at home twiddling your thumbs, watching T.V. and all the socially disastrous effects that may come from being unemployed? MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am aware and I think the member opposite should be aware that we do cost-share a particular program with the city of Winnip eg. I think the total costs of the program is in the neighbourhood of a third of a million dollars. That is one program we are involved in. The member should be made aware, Mr. Speaker, 'that the type of Ind ustrial Train ing and the opportun ities for In stitutional Training and Apprenticeship Training and Critical Training, those programs do not say in any way that people from the inner part of the city of Winnipeg can not apply, 3040-C

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 they're certainly eligible to apply for them also. It's part of the whole education process. One of the reasons we're putting a lot of emphasis on Industrial Training, in-plant training, to upgrade people within the plants, is to create room for others to move in, Mr. Speaker. It's also one of the very major differences that I have with the Federal Minister of Immigration and Employment, where he feels that the answer to these type of job problems in Canada, is massive imm igration to the tune of 300,000 or 400,000. I don't think that's the approach.

I would think the Member for Brandon East would be more supportive of my approach, which is greater money and greater effort put into Industrial Training and trying to give our own people greater opportunity to get out of the problems that they find themselves in. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would support the Minister on any efforts that he would undertake to improve training and to provide skills for people so they can become usefully occupied. There's no disagreement. But, Mr.

Speaker, I believe this is a very dr astic situation with very serious social consequences, not only for those people but for the whole community of Winnipeg and indeed the whole province of Manitoba.

And given the fact that it is a very very serious situation with all the deplorable social consequences that might result, I would like to suggest to the Minister and indeed ask him, if he would be prepared to set up a special task force, in co-operation with the city of Winnipeg, to meet this situation head-on to do something now, to provide jobs for those thousands of people who are sitting at home idle and out of work? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, the objective of any responsible government is the endeavours of creating meaningful employment and I think that's an ongoing process with ourselves and with the city of Winnipeg and with all other agencies. But also I am led to bel ieve that portions within the report indicates to the low level of education of th ose people and the opportunity has been made available so they can upgrade their education so they can get out of the system that they're in. There are jobs, there are a fair number of jobs that are available today.

Why we have to review the report is to find out whether in fact the educational level of those particular people could qualify for some of those jobs. Is Canadian Manpower doing the best job they can to pair people off with jobs? There's a lot of things that have to be looked at in this particular situation, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Minis ter of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, in response to a request from the Honourable Member for lnkster a few days ago regarding the teaching of second languages, specifically in the Winnipeg area, I have a survey for his perusal that I'll send over to him at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that a numb er of non­ Canadian people were fined for working without a permit, can the Min ister inform us whether his department is reviewing the situation to see if any Manitoba labour laws were contravened? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have asked my very capable staff to have a review of the entire situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon our able Min ister of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to respond to a question I took as notice from the Leader of the Oppo sit ion yesterday and to confirm that the nursing station at Thicket Portage was in fact closed in January of 1980 upon the advice of the Department of Health because of inadequa te sewage facili ties.

Subsequently the water was turned off and it has had some icing problems since then; but relative to the question, the problem is the responsibility of the Government Services and that department was notified of the problem and they are undertaking to correct the situation. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his answer. I would like to know from the Minister when he was first advised as to the closing of the nursing station. MR. GOURLAY: I can't be specific as to the exact time when I was notified.

As a matter of fact, I was of the opinion that the problem is being looked after by the Department of Health and as I understand it, the nursing personnel are still in place there. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health when he was first informed of the closure. But in answering, I would like the Minister of Health to indicate whether he has an answer to the question I posed to him on February 22nd of this year pertaining to the Neurosurgery Department at the Health Sciences Centre and the number of empty beds, if any, relating to that particular part of the department. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that I answered the honourable leader's question about neurosurgical beds and I described the particular ward , the particular unit, that is comprised of neurosurgical and neurological beds at the Health Sciences Centre. I explained to him that there are 36 beds in that unit and they are necessarily di vide d 50/50 among neurosurgery and neurology but are utilized as the need requires.

The last time that I dealt with that question I pointed out to him that there were two beds in the unit that were not at that point in use, 3040-D

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 they were not being occupied. I would have to check to see what the current situation is but that was just a few days ago. On the other question, my information is that my department was notified in January of the situation at Thicket Portage. Instructions were given in the interests of public health and environmental health to take the steps that were taken. The nurse is still there, available and on duty, but the facility itself has had to have been temporarily closed in the interests of the protection of the environment. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time for question period having expired, before we proceed with other affai rs, I would like to thank the Hon ourable Mem ber for Fort Rouge and th e Honourable Member for Ste. Rose for bringing to my attention, and at the same time apologize them for not having caught it myself. Apparently we are having trouble with the computer in the printing of Hansard where those letters that have an accent are being dropped from the com puter. A special program was set up yesterday to overcome this problem and we expect that it should be corrected and in operation properly today.

I apologize to all members of the House though for the problems we had. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Go vernment Services that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for lnkster. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I rise at this time because I feel that there has been, on the part of certain elected people in the province of Manitoba, a rather unfair injustice been done, perhaps - and I'm being charitable - perhaps by inadvertence and, Mr. Speaker, perhaps by design. I ask you to pose, Mr. Speaker, as to the situation that there was a rule in this House that you had to have, or that there was a rule of government which suggested, that you had to have a certain number to form a quorum; that there had to be seven Cabinet Ministers to form a quorum.

And that if there were resignations which reduced the number to six, the Governor General could appoint an admin istrator and suspend the other Cabinet Ministers until the number had been redone; and that given this power, the Governor-General found that certain number of Cabinet Ministers had been . . . Mr. Speaker, I'm speaking on the motion. -(I nterjection)- Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'm speaking on the motion , that the Governor-General found that the right number wasn't there and he exercised his power to suspend and he appointed the Leader of the Opposition to be the Premier and said then that he wouldn't call an election until the normal time for elections arose. What would be, Mr. Speaker, the reaction of the members of the Cons ervative party or of the members of this House to how the elected representatives of the people were treated? Because, Mr.

Speaker, tantamount to that occuring is what the Minister of Municipal Affairs has done in the area of the Local Government District of Alexander, Mr. Speaker. What he has done - well, Mr. Speaker, I read to you, I read to you, Mr. Speaker, and I put this in all seriousness, that there is a provision of The Municipal Act, Mr. Speaker, which says, that where a membership of a council is reduced by reason of a number of not attending members or because there is a resignation, that the Minister is entitled, and only because there is not a quorum, Mr.

Speaker, ithas nothing to do with any problems; the quorum in the local government district of Alexander has five. The Minister received three resignations, and I will deal with how those resignations were obtained. He received three resignations which meant there were two, and only because of that legal technicality, for no other reason, The Muni cipal Act gives the Minister the power to say, that since the Council cannot act, I will appoint an admin istrator and suspend the Council until the Council comes back to size. Now, Mr.

Speaker, suppose that happened in the municipality of Selkirk; suppose that happened in the city of Winnipeg, and suppose that there was a big argument between the Mayor of Selkirk and the Secretary-Treasurer of Selkirk, and the council of Selkirk went down to below the quorum; who would the Minister appoint to be the administrator of the Council? It has nothing to do with any charges of wrong doing.

Would he appoint the bureaucracy to be the administrator of Council, or would he say, I'm going to appoint the highest elected official, namely the mayor, to be the administrator until the Council receives its quorum. Now, Mr. Speaker, instead of doing that, the Minister has given the impression, and it is a totally false impr ession, completely unfair to a publ icly elected people, and we should be the ones who und erstand that - we should be the ones who und erstand that - tha t these people were suspended because of charges which were made against them. Mr.

Speaker, that is totally misleading, totally illegal, and totally false. There is absolutely no basis in the law for that position. These people were not suspended on account of any charges. They were suspended, Mr. Speaker, because they couldn't act and an administrator had to be appointed; and what did the Minis ter do? He appoi nted the administrator, Mr. Speaker, who ran around and got the resignations. Now just look at what has occurred here. We have an elected council; two people resigned, Mr.

Speaker, and my information is that they resigned on the 14th to the knowledge of the administrator; that they then attended a meeting on the 18th. Then on the 18th, Mr. Speaker, and I ask you to cogitate this, the Administrator, who subsequently gets appointed to look after this council, runs to a sick councillor and ask.s him to resign. So they got thr ee resignations and there is nobody to look after the council. The same person who runs to get this resignation is appointed by the Minister to administer the council and the two elected people, Mr.

Speaker, are suspended; and worse than that, it is suggested they are suspended because of some type of wrongdoing. There is absolutely no basis in the Act 3040-E

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 for the suspension of these people on the basis of wrongdoing, there is nothing they have done which would have resulted in any suspension, they have been suspended solely because there was not a quorum and the quorum was reduced by the action of the person who the Minister then appoints as the Administrator. Now why did the Minister, in the absence of a quorum, not appoint the Mayor? Why would he appoint the person who is the servant of the council rather than the elected Mayor of the Local Government District of Alexander? Now, Mr.

Speaker, not only is this what occurred but I am advised, and the Minister will have to answer for it, that Mr. George Fontaine who is the third member who resigned, at the instigation of the local government administrator, was in the Minister's office, told him what had happened and asked him whether he could withdraw his resignation and was told by the Minister he could not withdraw his resigna tion. Now, Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether legally he could or could not withdraw the resignation, that's something which I will let the courts argue about; what I do know is that when Mr.

Fontaine and the Mayor and the third councillor came to the Minister's office, which is a majority of council, and told him what had happened the very least the Minister could have done is to say Well I'm not going to have that council administered by the secretary-treasurer, by the person who he has named, because that is the person who brought about the minority on council. And, Mr.

Speaker, what we have is some suggestion in the newspapers, and I can't blame the Minister for the newspapers, but I can blame him for something, because he suggests, lead it to be believed and did not discount it, that this suspension had something to do with wrongdoing on the part ofthe councillors. That is absolutely false, absolutely false. He also lead it to believe, Mr. Speaker, and I have the resignations here, lead people to believe that these people resigned, and in one case it said that the allegations were detailed in letters of resignation of the other three Alexander council.

The allegations were detailed in letters of resignation. I have the three letters of resignation, there is no allegation against any councillor. The fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Mayor's common-law husband was employed, did we make a fuss of it when the Minister's brother was employed on the Human Rights Commission? So what, is that a disqualification from employment; he was voted on by all of the members up in council; the fact that a contract was signed by the Mayor instead of by the Admin istrator, that's something for the lawyer of council, not something for the council, they all agreed to it.

Has your government never come into contact with the fact that the lawyer will tell you this order-in-council, or this thing has to be signed in a different way, but we have, Mr. Speaker, is a suggestion that this suspension came as a result of some type of wrongdoing. Wrongdoing there was, Mr. Speaker, a conspiracy there was, what I am surprised is that the Minister would give sustenance to that kind of conspiracy. What we have is local politics, Mr. Chairman, which is no different that higher politics.

People argue with one another, there is a minority on council, there is a view of the bureacracy and let us all protect ourselves from the bu reacracy, not appoint them over the elected officials, which is what the Minister has done, probably on the advice of a bureacrat of his. Probably on the advice of some bureacrat in the Department of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member says, easy, there is no easy thing here. We have a woman who was elected as Reeve of the Local Government District of Alexander; the Minister has suspended her; he has not made clear as he should have, Mr.

Speaker, as he should have, that this suspension has nothing to do with any charges, this suspension has to do with the fact that the council requires three people for a quorum, there's only two and the Act says I must create a quorum. The only way I can create a quorum is to call elections, in the meantime I appoint an administrator. Who should he have appointed? He should have appointed the Mayor.

Okay he didn't appoint the Mayor but knowing what he knew, should be have appoi nted the bureacrat who was involved in securing these resignations in order to bring about the fact there would be a legal suspension and then to create the impr ession tha t suspension has something to do with some wrongdoing. Mr. Speaker, it is a scandalous affair, scandalous, and the Minister had better clear it up, and the best way it can clear it up is to now appoint an admin istrator that had nothing to do with these activities. If he doesn't do that, Mr. Speaker, then I suggest to him I will not be as charitable the next time.

The honourable member says, Take it easy, he ain't heard nothing yet. There is no business for that person to be the administrator of this council, that person is in conflict with his council, he was the servant of the council, there is no business for him now to be. And let's just show you what he's done. Mr. Speaker, you would think these people resigned because they didn't wish to be councillors anymore, they didn't want to do their work anymore. They were a minority group, Mr. Speaker, one of them is named Yvonne Hun ter, she resigned, she doesn't want to be on the council anymore. Isn't that right?

The adminis trator has named Yvonne Hun ter as Citi zen member representing the District of Eastgate; has named Yvonne Hunter to the Alexander Advisory Planning Committee; has named Yvonne Hunt er as a Citizen Mem ber to represent the District of Eastgate Reg ional Development Corpora tion. This is the person wh o resigned ; this is the person who resigned, they didn 't want to serve on council anymore, but once you get the majority out and in the bureaucrats he names her to three committees. Is that what the Minister wanted? Mr.

Speaker, it is the most astonishing tale of a usurption of power, on the behalf of people who had an argument with the majority and a very skilled manoeuvre, Mr. Speaker. This resignation, the resignations of Hunter and Fontaine I am advised, and I charge and I ask the Minister to investigate, were dated March 14th or at least were signed March 14th and given to the local government adminis trator, the one who issubsequently named as the trustee. They attended a mee ting on the 18 th. Do you know why, Mr. Speaker? Because they weren't satisfied yet.

The resignations had not been sufficient, two resigning didn't create the law that there was no quorum. The administrator then went over to see Mr. Vincent and 3040-F

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 spoke to Mr. Vincent and Mr. Vincent, after being spoken to on one day and then on another day, subsequently made a third resignation. All of a sudden, there is no quorum. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General will appreciate this, Councillor Ernst stands up and says I voted contrary to law. The Minister says, well I've got no complaints. I'm not going to make any investigation. The thing will sort of look after itself. Reeve Thompson and the other councillor didn't vote contrary to law. There is an allegation that the living partner of one of them is higher.

There is no doubt that the Council voted unanimously for the hiring of that person. All of a sudden, that person is subject to an investigation by the Minister; not the local government district administrator, not the man who ran around and got a third resignation. I ask the Minister, is it not a fact that Mr. Edgar Vincent was in his office telling them that he would like to withdraw the resignation, and the Minister said that he could not withdraw the resignation. Well, Mr. Speaker, if that's a fact, and I suggest it is ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs on a point of order. MR. GOURLAY: At least on a point of clarification, the Honourable Member for lnkster is mentioning, first of all, that it was Councillor George Fontaine that was in my office requesting that he be reinstated; now he's saying it's Vincent. Who is he meaning? MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that he wait and make his contribution. He will have time, if he so desires. The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister should not quibble with me about such a matter.

If I used the wrong name, he knows it. Fontaine and Hunt er were the first two resignations. Vi ncent was the resignation which was approached by the local government district admin istrator and asked to resign, and he was in the Minister's office. He was there with Reeve Thompson. He was there with the other councill or. He asked whether he could withdraw his resignation; the Minister said no. Well, Mr. Speaker, that's what Reeve Thompson told me and she was in the Minister's office. (Interjection)- Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is what our duly elected Reeve told me; not a local government district administrator, who went and got . . . The Minister can ask Mr. Vincent whether what I am saying is not correct. Mr. Vincent is there. I am not able to misrepresent him. Mr. Vincent is there; has told Reeve Thompson that he did not know that this would happen, that he did not want to resign, Mr. Speaker, or at least was in the Minister's office and said he would like to withd raw his . . . - (Interjection)- He said it on television. Mr. Speaker, why is the Minister quibbling with me? He's making himself worse than it is.

I have given the Minister an opportunity to deal with this question. I say that the sensible thing to do is to appoint another admin istrator; really, he should appoint the Reeve but I don't expect him to do that, but he cannot appoint the administrator who went . .. Mr. Speaker, the facts belie the imagination. If the Minister says that he did this and that he knew everything that I said, I would immediately demand his resignation, Mr. Speaker, because it is a scandalous affair. And if he d oesn't, Mr.

Speaker, either call an immediate election, immediate so that the third position can be filled, appoint another administrator so that we do not have the support of the Minister to an administrator who is fighting with the duly elected Council. Then, Mr. Speaker, how does the Minister explain it? The local government administrator has now had minutes, Mr. Speaker, meeting of April 22nd, 1980. You kno w, he has minutes of the meeting he conducts by himself, and here are the appointments. Here, this woman resigned. The Reeve was still serving; the other councillor was still serving; Hun ter resigned.

Hunt er was one of the people who was in the minority. -(In terjection)- Yes, well he is the Council; he is not a trustee. Here are the mi nutes: Ric hard A. Andres, resident adminis trator; Bradley Robertson is the secretary; that's all there is; there is no council, it's a trustee. Who are the appointments? Yvonne Hunter, citizen member representing district on Eastgate lot; Yvonne Hunter, Alexander Advisory Comm ittee. It doesn't name the Reeve who has been suspended for no reason. There is nothing in these resignations and if you want to suspend on the basis of name calling, Mr.

Speaker, then I assure you that the Reeve and the other councillor can think of as many names to call the other councillors as they have thought of to call them. Is that the way we are going to suspend people and appoint a local government district bureaucrat as against the elected people on the basis of that type of tripe? Mr. Speaker, this is scandalous, scandolous in terms of the people who are affected, and scandalous in terms of leaving the im pression that this legal right to suspend had anything whatsoever to do with misconduct, because, Mr.

Speaker, I state my legal life on the fact that this suspension has nothing to do with any misconduct on the part of anybody. It is a suspension which the Minister has the authority to make, not because of any misconduct but because a quorum doesn't exist. And since you cannot operate without a quorum, Mr. Speaker, it's tantamount to saying that when we want to give Royal Assent and the Governor-General is not here, we use the administrator. But there's no reflection on the Governor-General. I give the Minister the Act, the Attorney-General. Mr. Speaker, what difference does it make who is the member out there?

The fact is that these councillors have brought this to my attention that, Mr. Speaker, there is an injustice; that the Minister is the witting or unwitting perpetrator of that misjustice; that he should not wait to clear up this misjustice; that he cannot continue to leave this municipality in the hands of the local government di strict administrator, in preference to the elected people, on the basis of name calling. You heard what the Attorney-General said about Ernst, who voted on his own company. There is absolutely no basis.

The Minister would have had no basis for this suspension in the absence of the resignation. Is that not right? 3041

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 The reason that he gives for the suspension order of the Minister is that where there is not a quorum, he may suspend. How was the quorum defeated? By the same guy who he named going out and asking a councillor to resign. That councillor su bsequently goes to the Minister's office and says, I would like to withdraw. Okay, Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether he can withdraw it or not but I know what's right.

And what is right is that that local government district administrator should not be the trustee who is running the Council, when two people have been suspended - not because they had done anything wrong and the basis of their suspension is not that they have done anything wrong; the basis of their suspsension is that there is no quorum. And if you say that the details of the charges are in these letters, Mr. Speaker, I have each letter of resignation. There is not one allegation against any councillor in these letters of resignation. And what if there were? -(I nterjection)- That's all. Mr.

Speaker, the matter could have been solved immediately by calling an election for next month. If an election was called for between the time that the resignations occurred, between March 18th and April 30th, there would be an elected council in that area now. MR. DESJARDINS: They could have had a reduced quorum. MR. GREEN: No, he couldn't reduce it to less than three. There are only five. -(In terjection)- Oh, if the third one came on, he would have had the quorum, and if he reinstated this man who said that he wants to withdraw his resignation, then he could not suspend. Mr.

Speaker, it is a black conspiracy and the Minister may not be a party to it, and I will be certain that he is not a party to it or at least it will make me feel much better if he says that I am no longer going to have Mr. Andres serve as the admin istrator, he is one of the people in the fight and I suspend them. This is the Conservative idea of politics. You suspend the elected person and you reinstate the bureaucrat who he's been fighting with. -(I nterjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker, my friend, the Member for St. George says that he asked this last week and I certainly believed him. I just cannot, Mr.

Speaker, understand how, in circumstances of this kind, the innocent people become the victims. There is no basis upon which the Minister could have made this suspension based on allegations against a councillor. It's like saying that if I'm making a charge against a Minister he could be suspended by somebody. Councillors have charges made against them every day and countercharges, that's the natur e of politics; it happens all the time. The Minister says that if one councillor makes charges against another councillor he'll suspend the second councillor.

So it'll be a race who will make the charges first, that's who will be left with the position because that's what's happened, Mr. Speaker. Does the Minister countenance it? One of the resigned people has been named to th ree committees of this non-existent council. Does the Minister countenance it? Mr.

Speaker, I ask, indeed I demand to the extent that I have the right to make any demands, that there be immediate action with respect to this matter; that immediately we have the elected representatives of the people reinstated in that area by election or otherwise; and that in the meantime that the notion of keeping the Local Government District Administrator as the adminis trator of this area as against the elected people, be immediately reversed, Mr. Speaker.

It is a situation that the people of Manitoba should not want to tolerate in any of their elected districts, including the Local Government District of Alexander. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Northern Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to clarify some of the mi sun ders tandings that apparently have come up on the other side of the House. First of all, I'm surprised that the Honourable Member for lnkster would compare the LGD Council of Alexander with the RM Council of Selkirk.

They're not in the same status; the LGD of Alexander is an Advisory Council to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, I'm sure, is well aware of this fact. I'm surprised that the Member for lnkster would even use this sort of comparison in the first place. First of all, the three members turned in their resignations - I'm not sure what the date on the form was, but I understand it was on the 18th of last month. So naturally the council did not have a qu orum, there was only two mem bers left.

Su bsequently it was brought to my attention there were serious allegations and accusations against the two rem aining mem bers of council. I had the opportunity of calling By-elections; that in view of the fact that three members of council had resigned, and in view of the fact that there were serious allegations and charges, I thought it was imperative on my part that the two remaining members of council should be suspended until such time as I could investigate some of these allegations. -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. The Honourable Member for lnkster had his opportunity to speak.

He can ask a question if he so desires. The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. GREEN: I would like to know whether the Minister had power to suspend these councillors on the basis of those allegations and whether, if he did, did he use that power? Because the power that is used in the Act has nothing to do with the allegations. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I suggest to the honourable member that he is asking for a legal opinion and he knows full well that is not within his jurisdiction in this House. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR.

GOURLAY: In any case the council didn't have a quorum and they couldn't operate as such and I felt that it was important that the allegations and accusations should be clarified before any by­ elections should be held, because if these charges have any substance then it would result in some 3042

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 investigations at some later time and probably disrupt the council. So the Member for lnkster mentioned that the Reeve and the Deputy Reeve and Councillor Vincent visited my office, which is true. I requested the Reeve to come in and discuss the situation and she chose to bring Oscar Papineau, the Deputy Reeve, upon my invitation, as well. However, the third council member, Edgar Vincent, came along unb eknown to me, which was fine. We had a conversation in my office. At no time did he ever ask to be reinstated.

He said on many occasions he had second thoughts about resigning, but at no time did he ever say that he wanted to be reinstated. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised to hear that he was even int erested in thinl <ing thi s way. He didn't indicate it to me. He is a man of some . . . - (Interjection)- Do you want to hear the situation or not? Well, I think that I'm explaining it. As I mentioned earlier in the question period I have a very open mind on this situation.

I'm not familiar with any of the councillors although I do know the Reeve from the fact that she lived in Swan River some many years ago and I have a lot of respect for her. I want to handle this the best way that I know how and I think that the opposition are trying to make it very difficult and they're bringing up a lot of garbage, to my way of thinking. And the Member for lnkster ind icated about the fact that there was some concern about a common-law rela tionship. I never ever have brought up that situation; I've never mentioned it.

It has been reported in the newspapers but it certainly didn't come from myself or my office. So the situation, I hope that I can have a full report and have this clarified within the next 10 days or two weeks. I don't know what more I can add to those comments at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a question? MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: I wonder if the Honourable Minister would accede to a question. Does the Honourable Minister not have only one decision to make and that is when to call the by­ election, not if to call it?

Having already suspended two and having had resignations from three, what decision could he make, other than what could have been made a month ago, and that is to call a by­ e!ection to have the people's representatives make decisions? What other choice does he have? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Well, I think the onus is on the Minis ter of Muni cipal Affairs to check out accusations and allegations and to decide whether or not there's any substance to this. MR. CHERNIACK: Just a subsequent question.

Regardless of whether the Minister decides that the accusations are well-founded or not, in the end does he have any authority to make any decision other than to call a by-election? And if so, why doesn't he do so and why didn't he do so? MR. GOURLAY: Well, I think, Mr. Speaker, that in all fairness this situation could even be postponed until this fall when elections are going to be held in all muni cipalites. I hoped that wouldn't be necessary. I hoped that we could fill the vacancies before that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: With a question, please, Mr.

Speaker, of the Minister. When I first raised this question in this House, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister if any charges are going to laid in this connection and he didn't answer. I wonder if he can now answer that question as to whether any charges are going to be laid against any elected person from the Local Government District of Alexander. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Well, the same answer applies at this time.

I'm having my Deputy Minister check out the various allegations and accusations, and it would be dependent on the substance, if there's any, from these allegations or accusations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In speaking to this motion, it seems that the Minister of Municipal Affairs of the province of Manitoba, if he is to act responsibly rather than irresponsibly as it seems that he has thus far, he would now, Mr.

Speaker, at the earliest possible chance that he's got, call an election in the LGD of Alexander immediately and have the vacancies on council filled so that council can operate at a full quorum. Mr. Speaker, when I heard the Minister indicate that the resident administrator, who was appointed the administrator of the LGO of Alexander, appointed people who resigned from the original Council back as his Advisory Commit tee, Mr. Speaker, I was astounded, to say the least; that now we have elected people who, if charges are being made, and charges are being levelled here in this Chamber every day.

I haven't seen any resignations in the Manitoba Legislature in the last few days except maybe, Mr. Speaker, possibly today. There may be charges that should be levelled at the Minister of Municipal Affairs and have already been done so, or at least the benefit of the doubt has been given him on this very issue. Mr. Speaker, last week when I said I asked the Minis ter certain qu est ions about charges and counter-charges, I asked the Mini ster as well whether there were any allegations against the resident administrator.

Because I had heard, I had spoken to the Minister in the hall about what was going on; he told me that there were certain allegations made. There is no do ub t about it that he gave the information to me as he, as he has given to this Chamber, that there were certain allegations made and that this was the reason for the suspension. Then subsequently to that, Mr. Speaker, I asked him whether there were charges since he appointed the same resident administrator, who apparently the allegations have been made, had gone out to seek 3043

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 the resignations or the resignations of one of the councillors to make sure - not to make sure but to have the end effect that council could not operate. Because had the third member not resigned, council had a quorum and could have operated. Will the Minister indicate or would he be prepared to indicate that he would have still suspended the council, had there been a quorom, had not the three councillors resigned? The Minister said, well, the third fellow said, you know, he was reconsidering; he really didn't take it back. Mr.

Speaker, I have had statements made to me to the effect, people in the Pine Falls' area who have followed this issue very closely and not members of council, who have said they saw the councillor in particular, the councillor that had just come out of an open-heart surgery, get up on television and state that if he had known the implications of what was going to happen, he would not have resigned. Mr.

Speaker, if that certainly doesn't make it clear that the councillor did not, at the time that he signed the request for the resignation papers that he was asked for, wasn't clear in what the implications were, he certainly had second thoughts about it after he had presented that letter saying that the elected officials could not operate in a fashion that they were duly elected to do within their local government district. The Minister of Municipal Affairs gets up in the Cham ber and says, you know, those elected councillors are only advisors to the administrator. Mr.

Speaker, it has taken the province of Manitoba, the previous administration, ten long years when we were in office to bring about a change in this attitude of advisory, to bring these councils along to the point that we would give them the confidence that they deserved to operate on their own, to make the decisions that were rightly there so that they could be moved eventually to totally administer their own affairs within their own areas. Today, the Minister of Municipal Affairs gets up and says, look, they're really only advisors to the admin istrator. Mr.

Speaker, with that kind of an attitude on behalf of the government, LGD councils can only go backwards in terms of the paternalistic attitude that the provincial government has towards these elected people. Mr. Speaker, those people are elected by the same people that we are, that the Minister has been elected by, that I have, and all members in this Chamber, by the ballot box in that area. Certainly they should be given the right to operate.

I believe that it's incumbent on the Minister of Municipal Affairs now to immediately call the by­ elections in the three resignation areas that he has received and the other two seats, two councillors, one of whom is the Reeve, who have not resigned be rein stated and council be brought back to full operating standards. That is the least that he can do. Mr. Speaker, the Minister really, by allowing the administrator to now pick the same people who were on council who caused the resignation, the Member for lnkster said it so well, it's a conspiracy.

I mean, the same people who threw out the allegations are now back running council. Mr. Speaker, the Minister, if it happened in his own municipality, I can just imagine; he would be hoping 10 feet off the ground he would be so incensed at what has occurred in Alexander. Yet it seems that he says, look, I'm going to investigate these people and the authority that he used - I believe the Act is over here, if I could have it - was

Section 67 of the Municipal Act which primarily gives the Minister authority, and I'd like to read it. Where the membership of a cou ncil is reduced by reason of a mem ber not atten di ng meetings because of the requirements of

Section 51 or by vacancies caused by any reason to less than the quorum required under any other provision of this or any other Act of the Legislature to conduct the business of the council, the Minister, if he is satisfied that elections will be held to fill the vacancies within four months of the time the membership was first reduced below the quorum, may, by written order, reduce the quorum of the council below the quorum otherwise required but not below three members, until the vacancies are filled or may by his order appoint a temporary administrator of the municipality to act and suspend the powers, duties, rights and authorities of the council and the remaining members of council until the vacancies are filled.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Municipal Affairs - I see he's talking to the Attorney-General - I would hope that the Attorney-General provides him with the legal opinion necessary and the advice that I hope the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs will take, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Municipal Affairs calls the by-elections immedi ately, reins tates the council lors that have not resigned and if, Mr. Speaker, there should be an investigation within the LGD ... You know, I had some material sent to me just the other day from that council reacting to some of the charges that have been labelled.

We may as we ll talk about some of those charges: the purchase or non-purchase of a grader, whether that was required. That was one of the issues, Mr. Speaker. I believe there may be minu tes, if the Mini ster is really intent on dealing with tho se charges, whether the council itself was in support of examining the issue of whether they required a patrol or a grader, as is commonly known.

The other matter, I believe, was the charges that certain friends or relatives or accomplices, or people that were related or associated to some of the members of the council, or it was the reeve, were somewhow given preferential treatment for the jobs that they received and/or the salaries that they had received from council. Mr. Speaker, if those are true, then certainly the members of council, of whom the reeve is only one - I think the charges were against the reeve - and the reeve, I believe, in a council, rarely votes unless there is a tie on the motion presented to council.

If there was no tie, that the reeve may have broken a motion of council to do the kinds of things that they are alleged to have done, then what is the reason for the investigation, Mr. Speaker, if there was clear unanimity of council? Maybe some of the councillors had second thoughts after the fact, in terms of whether certain people should have been given the raises that they shouldn't have been given, because I think these are things that were brought out in the press - I don't have the clippings before me - and/or whether or not another patrol should be pur chased by the municipality. Mr.

Speaker, those issues really should be dealt with by the council, if we are going to allow the 3044

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 councillors to operate in a democratic fashion. But now, Mr. Speaker, we have the administrator, I'm sure who was involved in the charges and counter­ charges - that's why I raised the question with the Minister because there have been allegations on both sides of the fence; I know that the issue is not black and white, but to a point - the very person.

That's why I asked him whether he was going to suspend the resident admin istrator last week, as well, as he did suspend the councillor, since there were charges against the councillors and I'm sure that there were charges against the administrator, in order to have a clear deck if he was intent on having an investigation, that everybody be fresh in that area. But he didn't do that, Mr. Speaker; he appointed the very fellow, the very individual, to run council who then appointed previous members of council as his advisors. Mr.

Speaker, it appears that the two members of council who did not resign were, to say the least, set up. That's the only conclusion that one could come to, is those two members were set up in one way or another. Mr. Speaker, I believe that in order to lift the shroud of suspicion and accusations against all elected officials in that council that the least that the Minister can do is get up and say, I am calling by­ elections. The municipal elections do not occur until next October, which is a number of months away.

Certainly there is time for the Minister of Municipal Affairs to act in a rational manner, not to hide behind the fact that there is an investigation that has to be done; to allow the council, the elected council and not the administration, to subvert the powers of the elected council and to bring back a truly . . . If the Conservative government, and I've heard the Premier of this province talk so much saying the local government is really the heart of this province; they know what the problems of the people are and they deal with them in the most fundamental way at the grass-roots level. Mr.

Speaker, if that is the belief of the Conservative government, and I don't doubt the Premier of this province one bit, then the Minister of Municipal Affairs should get up and say, we believe in that form of government and it is truly the elected officials who really should do the governing, and not the appointed officials, and call for a by-election and reinstate those members who did not resign on that council. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I did not intend to get into this debate but I am somewhat overwhelmed by the lack of appreciation of the subject matter on the part of the Minister of the Crown. The Minister obviously doesn't fully understand what has taken place. Mr. Sp eaker, I don't kn ow what the local arguments are as between the council members of the LGD of Alexander; I do know for, well, at least I recall, that it's been a fairly heavy debating society for some number of years, at least since they have become an elected council.

I've had discussions from time to time with a number of people over the years, and I know that it's always a bit of a controversial arena. But Mr.

Speaker, what we have here is a situation where the Minister obviously has decided to take on one side of the argument as being gospel and denying the other side its rightful place in the debate; because what he has done is given the control of the operations of the LGD to one of the characters who was involved in the dispute, if you like, with the council, namely, the admin istrative officer who was involved in fact· with the exercise of soliciting the dem ise of the council th rough solicitation for resignation .Mr.

Speaker, no one denies that, it is factual evidence and I don't believe the Minister will deny that took place. If you read the letters of resignation from the three people - and Mr. Speaker, it might be worthwhile to read them into the record - because that demonstrates fully why this Minister should not have done what he has done, but rather should have introduced someone neutral to administer the affairs of the LGD in the interim and should have called elections immediately to fill the positions that have become vacant. This is really the procedure he should have followed. Mr.

Speaker, I want to read into the record these letters of resignation. March 18, 1980. I hereby tender my resignation, effective imm ediately, as Councillor for Ward 1 of the LGD of Alexander. My position on council has become untenable since matters, resolutions which the Reeve and Deputy Reeve object to are not being allowed to be dealt with. Signed Yvonne Hunter. The other one dated March 18 , 19 80 I George Fontaine, of Stead , Manitoba, Councillor for Ward 2 of the LGD of Alexander, hereby tender my resignation as Councillor for the Local Government District of Alexander, effective immediately. Thank you.

Yours truly, George Fontaine. No reasons are given on that one. The third one and this is the one brought about by pressure from the LGD Administrator, Mr. Speaker, and I think it's worthwhile knowing that this particular individual was and is a very sick man, Mr. Speaker. He was prevailed up on by the LGD Admin istrator in order to get his resignation. March 18, 1980. I, Edgar Vincent of St. George, Manitoba, Councillor for Ward 3 of the LGD of Alexander, I hereby tender my resignation as Councillor for the district as my health does not permit, at this time, to sit at the council under the present conditions.

Now he gives health as his reason, he did not attribute any allegations to the remaining councillors, to the Reeve or to anyone who has been suspended by this Minister. As a matter of fact no one has attributed any wrong doing, notw ithstanding the fact, Mr. Chairman, that throughout the community there is an awful tot of discussions about whether a certain grader should or should not have been purchased; whether certain people should or should not have been employed; and the rates of pay at which they were employed and so on. Mr.

Speaker, that has been ongoing in that LGD for at least, I don't know, several years if I can recollect. I've had discussions with all of them, well not all of them but a good number of these people and others over the years. Not because I am directly involved just because I happen to know these people, Mr. Speaker, from time to time we bump into each other. It's a longstan ding thing and the Minister got caught up in this thing and I believe that he got caught up with it quite innocently, not realizing what kind of traps were being laid, and for whom they 3045

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 were being laid, Mr. Speaker. I believe he got caught, I believe he has an opportunity to undo it and to correct a wrong, Mr. Speaker. I think he should reinstate the people tha t have been suspended and he should call elections to rectify the problem of the quorum. He should fill those positions that are now vacant. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is making our democratic process work and my point in standing up has nothing to do with taking sides on any of the arguments within the LGD because I don't know what all the arguments are; but I do, Mr.

Speaker, feel there is a problem of this Minister setting an example of how not to let the democratic process work. I don't believe he wants to set this example, Mr. Speaker; I think he is caught in it and he doesn't want to lose some face in backing away from his present position. I think, Mr. Speaker, I would appeal to him that I think it would indicate a degree of strength on his

part if he was able to examine his position and say, yes, I think I was mislead, I think we can rectify this, and do the right thing to make sure that the decisions of the people in the LGD are the decisions that prevail, Mr. Speaker. Namely, that they have elected certain people to represent them in their local government and that should not be circumvented because of some dispute in the area and because one party to that dispute happened to get the ear of the Minister and convince him he should take certain steps. Mr.

Speaker, the election process a few years ago was one where the people that are involved here and who have been appointed to serve, since they have resigned, were competing with the people who have been suspended. Now that's a normal, democratic process. They did not win their day in the public court, Mr. Speaker, they weren't represented in the positions of Reeve and so that group feels that, at least that's the impression created by what has happened, Mr. Speaker, that through some means they have to undo the results of the last election.

Now I don't think the Minister should be put in that position; I don't think he should cater to that position; and if he is doing so, Mr. Speaker, what he is really doing is setting the stage for the next election which is next October, Mr. Speaker. - (Interjection)- The Minister of Government Services is right it's going to be a humdinger I can appreciate the point he's making; but for heaven sakes let's not stack the deck, Mr. Sp eaker.

Is the Minister prepared to suggest that, yes, I have appointed the Admin istrator who was involved in a conflict with his superiors, the elected officials; and I hope we can look at elected people as being the superiors, Mr. Speaker, that because there was a conflict, this Minister appoints him to administer the affairs, he suspends the counci l that was elected by the ratepayers and then the Admin istrator appoints the people who resigned into key positions to help him administer the LGD. It's a coup, Mr. Speaker, that's what it is. Mr.

Sp eaker, is the Min ister now tak ing the position that he wants to enhance the electoral chances of these people who have now been appointed in the October elections that are just around the corner. Is really that his game, that he wants to enhance the chances of these people in the election campaign that is about to arrive, some time at the end of the year? I don't believe that's his intention, I think he got caught. I believe, Mr. Speaker, he should rethink his position; I don't think he should allow his office to be used in this way. Regardless of the arguments, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister has only been able to indicate to the House that he had a problem with respect to a quorum. I regret the fact he even made mention of the fact that there was certain allegations, I regret that, Mr. Speaker, unless he was able to also say, and we have checked them out and we have found them to be accurate and for th ose reasons we have suspended these locally-elected people. If he was able to complete that scenario and bring us that kind of conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, we would not be in this debate today; but he has said there are certain allegations, by whom, towards which people, was it the Reeve or was it the group surrounding the Reeve, I don't know who the allegations are against, who is promoting them, Mr. Speaker? Heavens we hear allegations about my friends opposite every day, that's normal, Mr. Speaker, that's a normal process in our democratic system. There is a group in power and a group that wants to get into power. That is our system, Mr.

Speaker, but surely we shouldn't use authoritarian measures to un seat a group that has been elected and to put in their place, in positions of power, that group which was not successful in controlling that council prior to this time. Indeed in so doing, Mr. Speaker, enhancing the position of certain people should they choose to run in the municipal elections next fall. Now, Mr. Speaker, I don't know these people, quite frankly, and it doesn't bother me whether they run for office or don't run for office, get elected or don't get elected, that's of no consequence to me personally.

What bothers me is the fact that the government of Mani toba should not be circumventing the democratric process in the LGD of Alexander; that should sort itself out within those boundaries, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister should not be party to one side of any argument taking place within that LGD, unless he can show there has been some wrongdoing done. I know he can show me there are personality clashes on that council, Mr. Speaker; I think he can show me that in abunda nce.

That I am aware of but I don't know if he is in a position to show me there is something that the LGD people have done that is wrong, that is criminal, that is negligent if you like. My information, Mr. Speaker, has it that all the decisions to which these people in opposition have complained, or about which they have complained, were passed by council, some of them unanimo usly. My understanding, Mr. Speaker, is that the Reeve, and that is the political process, doesn't make a decision whatever, other than when there is a tie on council the Reeve breaks the tie.

My understanding is that did not occur with respect to any of those allegations about hiring certain people or about purchasing equipmen; that it did not require the vote of the Reeve to make those decisions. So, Mr. Speaker, I am bewildered as to why this Minister chose to pre-empt a normal function of a local government and that he chose to put himself into the arena where there is a dispute between, it may be a legitimate dispute, between people elected to local government and has, by so doing, has lent his name and the name of the province towards a 3046

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 declamation of certain people who were suspended; because Mr. Speaker, let's recognize it, when people are suspended automatically that connotes they were doing something wrong and therefore they were suspended for doing something wrong. The Minister has not been able to say they did anything wrong, but he has now labelled them in one way or another thr ough the suspension and , therefore, that in itself is going to handicap those people should they aspire to pub lic office next October. He has enhanced the position of other people in this process. Now if that's what he wants to do, Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe it, I just don't believe it, I don't believe the government really has an axe to grind. I think, Mr. Speaker, it's a bit of sloppiness. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to be that unkind because I am pleading with this Minister to do the right thing for the right reasons and I don't want to take advantage of my opportunity here to call him names or anything of the sort.

I merely suggest to him I think the world will appreciate him more if he rectifies a wrong rather than continuing to perpetuate the wrong to the point of the next municipal election in October, where these people will have been wronged because of the actions of this government, Mr. Speaker. I plead with him to reconsider and to reinstate those people whom he has suspended and to call immediate by-elections in order to fill those positions that are vacant. That is the only honourable way out of this dilemma, Mr.

Speaker, regardless of the arguments within the LGD, regardless, and we should not get involved in those arguments, Mr. Speaker. Unless there is criminality involved, unless the Minister can tell the House there are very legitima te reasons why suspensions are required, we should not, this Assembly and the members of this Assembly should not get involved in the local arguments that are taking place and should not be taking sides with respect to those arg uments. I think it is poor judgement and it's not going to be a credit to this government if the Minister does not rectify that, not a month from now, Mr.

Speaker, not two or three months from now, but immediately, Mr. Speaker. I would suggest to him that he immediately call in his advisors, his staff and review the situation, Mr. Speaker, and rectify it so that we have restored the democratic process in the LGD of Lac du Bonnet. MR. MERCIER: I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Urban Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -URBAN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are on Resolution No. 11 9, 1 .(c) - the Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Mr. Cha irman, yesterday I gave a great deal of thought, listening to the remarks by the Member fo"r St.

Johns and the Member for lnkster, and one of the things that I think the citizens of Winnipeg did is deliver the New Democratic Party a very clear message and that was they didn't want party politics at the municipal level. And to suggest that the ICEC is a political party, as one that used to be endorsed by them, I can assure you that my int erests in Wolsele y were so far removed from the St. James group that continually I fought a losing battle against the su burban councillors for a better share of the taxes for the core area of the city.

And I don't think anything has changed and I think that you'll find that the interest of the ICEC downtown, former city of Winnipeg, and the subu rban councillors are always at odds when it comes to divvying up the recreational pie or divvying up the grants and aspects for projects within their communi ty. I found that the people did not want a political party at the municipal level and I take a great deal of delight in being able to compare the two systems because here, when I do not agree with my caucus and my party, I'm called a maverick. On City Council I was a man doing a good job.

And it is that type of a difference, if the whip is on you have to adhere to a caucus decision or abstain from taking

part in the particular decision. You become a minority within a particular party;

whereas in the ICEC at City Council, I found that I was able to muster support. I remember the former Public Works Minister wanted a freeway under the Osborne Street Bridge; we were very very concerned and we had petitions and meetings, the former Bob Steen and myself, we stopped these traffic plan ners from pushing this traffic from St. Vital and St. Boniface, who were in a hurry to get to the football games who wanted to roar through Wolseley, and we stopped them down from coming through there.

Many things I was able to trade, almost like a Monopoly game, where I was able to get a new Broadway Optimist Community Club, an addition to the budget in 1973, with the support of the New Democrats and the communist member against my own colleagues, and I won a narrow decision because Mr. Leech and others were out of the Chamber. And that is the type of thing that you could do because you were an independent member on City Council being able to carry the interests of your community paramount above those of the particular suburban area that may have something differ from yourselves.

So what I'm trying to say to the Member for St. Johns, and the Member for Seven Oaks is another one, that their heavy hand in trying to impose a political system at the municipal level didn't wash with the public; they don't want it, and this is the type of thing that I took a great deal of delight in. I also found that you pretty well had to live in the community as a councillor or you had no chance of getting elected;

whereas I think I could probably buy a farm in one of the rural ridings and give some of the members a good run for their money because a lot of people do not live in the ridings of which they represent. I'm very pleased to say that in Wolseley 3047

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 we have anywhere from four to five MLAs living in my community and yet they represent the North End because they have no new bridge to go over so they won't live in their own commu nity that they represent. I wanted to also suggest that . . MR. DOERN: relocate? Are you sayi ng that I should MR. WILSON: Well, I'm suggesting that I welcome the MLAs. They can all live in Wolseley if they want, if they would possibly give me a few more of their compl aints in a more private way rather tha n bringing them to the House.

I wanted to say I think one of the things that we showed the Member for lnkster and others is that when the government said to us, we'll let you raise your own taxes, that I want to give the councillors a lot of common sense, and a lot of credit for common sense, because how in the world could we have the highest hotel bed tax almost in the world, because the generous former New Democratic government said, You city councillors can raise your own taxes. Now wouldn't that be nice for us to turn around and have a 10 percent bed tax. That's one of the ways they wanted us to pound the people.

We're trying to compete in a market for tourists. I suggest that they should remove the sales tax from hotel beds altogether, and that would be the type of thing we need as a tourism incentive. I really took exception to the fact that they said to us, You can raise your own taxes. I would rather go along with the present Minister who has suggested that joint programs, future capital projects that are discussed in joint meetings will be given approval and be carried out with the major funding coming from the provincial government.

I think one of the cheapest bargains that was ever accomplished was the former provincial government became 50 percent owner, I belie ve, in the Convention Centre, for only 7-1/2 million dollars. I would suggest that if you look at the city of Winnipeg now, in the Seventies and Eighties, as compared to what it was in the Sixties, you will see a downtown that is becoming exciting.

I was one of the leaders in the sup port of the Winnip eg Sq uare Trizac Development and I remember the New Democratic members and former councillor Kaufman and all those other pessimists who said, don't trust the developers; they'll never build anything, they're only committed to doing this. Yet they'll all be there when the opening takes place, they'll all be there to cut a dozen roses off some of the plants they're going to have in there, or whatever.

The point I'm getting at is that the New Democratic Party and certain members of City Council anti-development; I tell you that the corner of Portage and Main is going to be one of the exciting things; it's going to put this city on the map; it's going to have a global impact; it's going to be the type of thing that's going to attract people and make our citizens proud. And I can tell you that the parking and all that type of thing that is going in, all these parking facilities, are a plus to the downtown area. They will help the viability of businesses in that particular section.

I would like to see, most definitely like to see, something take place on the north side of Portage Avenue. I wanted to quickly say that I support the Minister in his block funding situation. I think that if I was on City Council and the funding was not adequate, I might suggest some unpopular things that might happen if I didn't get additional funding, and I am sure that they would act as a means to get special grants.

In other words, if the cost through inflation of operating Assiniboine Zoo went from 2 million to 3 million or from 3 million to 4 million, that I would be able, as a city councillor, to come to the province and say, Do you want us to start charging people to get into Assiniboine Park? And every politician, no matter whether he is New Democratic, myself included, wants to maintain the free entrance and admission to Assiniboine Park, which is a credit to our province and our city.

I do think that the present block funding system does bury, possibly for quite a while, some of the grandiose traffic patterns that were planned. I would like to see the city, who apparently has something like 6,000 serviced lots on the books, I'd like to see some in-fill housing in the city. I recognize that before very long we will go all the way to Headingley because there is pressure to open up the south side of Portage on the way to Headingley because of the easy drainage system into the Assiniboine, which would be a saving to the taxpayers rather than continue to developing out past Old Kildonan.

But in addition to that, we have the 6,000 lots. The city fathers should be selling them to get some revenue. They should be looking at all the huge real estate inventory they have on some of their plans of the Gr ant-Carriere Overpass and the southern freeway, and they should get on with building the Highland-F oley connection between West Kildonan and East Kildonan. I'm surprised they haven't come to the province for funds to build that bridge, along with some federal funds.

I would even go along as to say I hope to see the day that the Highland -Foley Bridge is built even before the McGregor Bridge, because of the lack of political interference. I just wanted to comment that I think the public has said they don't want political parties at a municipal level.

I think the people could be assured that no matter if they elect a person who is a known Conservative or Liberal to the ICEC, that they are getting a basically independent councillor who is a person who meets in discussion but who is not committed to a particular party whip system, and I am sure the Member for Fort Rouge would bear me out in that observation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to raise some smaller points, at this stage in the committee meeti ng, to clarify a number of points with the Minister.

Again, when he went down to Ottawa recently he raised a numb er of issues in addition to rail relocation and one was the request for the city, in regard to some funding for the Convention Centre, and I wonder whether the Minister could recreate the argument in favour of obtaining federal funding for the Winnipeg Convention Centre. On what basis did the delegation request funding and was it also in relation to the future construction or present construction of other convention centres which will be competitive to the Winnipeg Convention Centre? 3048

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I don't have that documentation with me, the letter that the Mayor brought with him and presented to Mr. Lapointe, the Small Busi ness Minis ter, but the concern arose in the city of Winnipeg sometime ago that the federal government was contemplating, I believe last fall, a contribution towards the construction of new convention centres in some cities and the Mayor had written to the previous federal government. We met, as I say, with Mr. Lapointe; Mr.

Lapointe indicated that it was highly unl ikely tha t the federal government would be contributing any moneys towards the construction of any new convention centre facilities anywhere. There might be one exception that he was checking out to determine to what degree commitments had been entered into by the federal government. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, also it came out of that meeting that they had made a request to the city, to Energy Minister, Marc Lalonde, concerning the, what's called here, Proposed Resource Recovery Plan for Winnipeg.

This would be to use the Amy Street steam plant, convert it into a facility that would burn garbage and consequently use it to heat buildings in the downtown area, some 200 buildings­ plus. Now, this has been talked about for a long time; our administration was interested in it. I ask the Minister whether he is optimistic or not about that? The quote in the papers, the Free Press from Tom Golds tein in Ottawa, is tha t Lalonde was very supportive.

So I ask the Minister whether he pushed this hard or whether he spoke on this particular matter in conjunction with the Mayor and the delegation; and whether he thinks that money will come as well as some encouraging words? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we met with Mr. Mclaren, the parliamentary secretary to Mr. Lalonde. Mr. Mcl aren, I think, represents a riding in the city of Toronto. He was very taken by the proposal.

We reviewed the history of this particular proposal and, as the Member for Elmwood will be aware, I believe it was back in 1976-77 when the city proposed the construction of such a facili ty to the previous provincial government. Mr. Miller, at that time, as Minister of Urban Affairs, suggested that in view of the construction costs of this kind of a facility and in view of the nationwide concern over energy conservation, tha t the federal government be approached to determine whether or not they would be prepared to make any contribution.

We subsequently in late 1977 met with the late Mayor Steen and I met with federal government ministers to review that project with them and they indicated, at that time, that they had a number of programs under review and couldn't make a commitm ent. Su bsequently, the federal government did announce the community services program, which is of lim ited two-year du ration, un der which they included, as a knowledgeable project under that program, this kind of facility that was contemplated, the Amy Street Plant. We subsequently allocated to major urban centres 90 percent of the funds under that agreement.

The city decided not to spend any money under that plan, under the Commu nity Services program, on such a project. But having said that, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Lalonde's parliamentary secretary did ind icate interest in it, as di d representatives of the department who were requested further information about the project and the city undertook to provide that further information to the federal government. MR. DOERN: I'm just saying; Mr. Chairman, that the province in the Throne Speech and the Member for River Heights, among others, is interested in this area.

He talked a great deal about new thrusts in the field of energy and alternatives to gas and oil and I would think that this is among the most logical areas in which to spend money. We have done some experimentation with solar energy and I hope more will be done. We were talking about developing hydro-electric power. There is talk of all sorts of other experiments from wind to methane, to all sorts of more exotic developments, tidal power in eastern Canada and so on.

And this particular thing, I think, to people who are not familiar with it, may sound farfetched but the technology exists and, if my memory serves me correctly, I think they have it in Quebec City; they have it in Toronto I think; maybe in Montreal; they have it in a number of cities in the United States - I visited one such outside of Boston - and the technology is Canadian. I think it's the Dominion Bridge Company which has built plants both in Canada and in the United States, and the market is there.

One can easily get trapped here by building such a plant to burn off the garbage and then there's no market for the power or the heat or the steam. But here is a ready existing market, and there's a plant which has a limited life span; it's been extended time and time again and I suppose if it were a cat, this would be about its eighth or ninth life, because many people thought that plant should have been closed years ago because of its pollution of the environment.

I am saying that I urge the Min ister to not abandon this project but to push it as hard as he can both inside Cabinet and with the federal people because if it's lost then what will happen is that the 230-odd businesses will then each have to put in a great deal of money to buy presumably gas or oil furnaces, and then you'll have a greater use of those fuels when you could in fact di spose of your garbage, retain the same distribution network and use a portion of the old heating plant. So I strongly encourage the Minister to pursue that, and I would like to ask him there, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of the lif e span, they've had several extensions from the Clean Environment Commission and I gather they're on another one and I wonder if he could indicate whether this is so and when that particular one runs out. MR. MERCIER: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I have to take that question as notice and enquire from . . . or perhaps it can be put to the responsible Minister. I'm not sure when the present extension expires. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'll just deal with one other small item and then let somebody else raise some questions of interest.

I just understood a problem which I suppose would tend to fall more within Cultural Affairs, but I would ask the Minister whether he would attempt to use his offices as Minister of Urban Affairs to attempt to 3049

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 recover some money for the Winnipeg Art Gallery, in the sense of work with the Minister of Urban Affairs, and I am referring to an exhibition that was planned for Winnipeg by the Winnipeg Art Gallery concerning Ukrainian culture and art.

Apparently they spent five years dealing with the Soviet government to bring in a selection of Ukrainian art from the fifteenth century religious icons to modern abstract, including some rare paintings by Taras Shevchenko, and, after all of that, they budgeted for a shortfall of some 70,000 and then they received a letter from the Secretary­ General of the National Museum saying that they are suspending all cultural and sports exchanges with the Soviet Union. And the result is that all the work and all the effort to what would have been a very exciting exhibition has gone down the drain.

Some people won't shed any tears for that; I think it's unfortunate, it was a follow-up to the show that brought here from The Hermitage which was the most successful import art show of all times in the city of Winnipeg. The members will recall the debate we had at that time.

I'm simply saying that aside from the aesthetic merits of the show and the interest there would have been in the Ukrainian community and at large, the Art Gallery is out 70,000 because of a federal decision to block cultural shows and sport exchanges in Canada; although they are clearly inconsistent in their policies since they're still letting in certain athletes and certain sports, like they had some skaters in just recently.

I'm saying, has the Minister looked at this or is he considering a request in support of the Art Gallery, in conjunction with the Minister of Cultural Affairs, to try to obtain some funding because otherwise I know exactly what will happen. The Gallery will go minus 70,000, then they'll come back to the province and they'll ask for a grant and then they'll go to city council and take a shellacking and try to get some money, then they'll come to the province etc. etc.

I think the federal government should make a substantial contribution specifically to recover a portion of the 70,000 which has resulted because of Canadian national policy or international policy on this matter. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that matter does not come within the jurisdiction of my department.

I've had no requests from the city certainly to consider that but I can see certain problems in that if the member is suggesting that the department try to obtain reimbursement from the federal government for those expenses, then there would certainly, at the same time, be a lot of people who, for example, let's talk about parents perhaps who have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on swimming lessons, or diving lessons or extra training for their children to prepare and train for the Olympics. What di fference would there be in their position as compared to the Art Gallery.

I frankly don't see any, but in any event, this matter has not been brought to my attention. Perhaps the Minister could pursue that with the Minister of Cultural Affairs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, it occurred to me, following the Member for Elmwood's comments, that the reason why the Shevchenko paintings were so rare was because he was a poet. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I am quite aware of the fact that he is a major poet but I have to tell you he also painted and you're displaying your ignorance there, it's not me who is displaying my ignorance, and I'll show you the

article if you would like to see it. MR. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought I ought to add some comments, perhaps some fuel to the fire that burns on the other side, regarding the block funding of the city of Winnipeg. And arguments aside ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I just wonder if I could attract the member, the next subject is the block funding, we're really in Other Expenditures, 1. (c). I suppose I wouldn't outrule it but the very next item is block funding to the Member tor River Heights. MR. FILMON: Sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington. MR.

BRIAN CORRIN: I just had one item I wanted to raise on Other Expenditures. I wanted to deal with what I imagine must come into other expenditures and that's the question of what we're going to do to upgrade the city's Conflict of Interest legislation. It's absolutely superfluous and unnecessary for me to express or comment further on the situation that has arisen in the past few weeks with respect to Councillor Ernst.

To say the least it's unfortunate, but in fairness Councillor Ernst has candidly indicated that he recognizes he was essentially in a position of conflict; that he breached the existing conditions of the City of Winnipeg Act. Mayor Norrie has made the same determination and finding and has made a public statement to that effect. What I think we want to know on this side is whether or not the existing City of Winni peg legislation is going to be upgraded in order to take appropriate action to clarity the law if it is deficient.

I would also ask the Minister, but I don't think it is appropriate to do so during estimates, whether or not there's a case here for enforcement of the existing law. But I think what's really important is whether or not the long overdue reform and overhaul of the existing legislation is going to take place. I needn't remind most of the members around the table that in 1976 the Chief Justice Rhodes-Smith was commissioned to do a report into conflict of interest; he submit ted a report of some 106 pages, detailing nume rous recommendations for revisions to The City of Winnipeg Act legislation.

I think his most salient and pertinent points were with respect, Mr. Chairman, to the need for disclosure; he indicated that he felt that all land and stock-holdings, large debts, political contributions, gifts, should be the subject of disclosure by councillors; he called upon the government to impo se penalities by way of legislation for violations ranging from forfeiture of office to five years impr isonment, I believe; he stressed the importance of mandatory disclosure as being the most effective tool for the prevention of 3050

Tuesday, 29 April, 1980 conflict of interest. The theory being that disclosure requirements would reduce the possibility of the city being put in those sorts of situations. He felt it would put people essentially at their best behaviour because their assets and obligations would be known by all. Currently, Mr. Chairman, as I'm sure again most of the members at the table are aware, and I'll be very brief, the situation is such that there is no onus on a councillor to make a disclosure.

A person, of course, if he or she feels they have a conflict of interest can abstain from either discussion or voting but it's with the exception of a few specific provisions in The City of Winnipeg Act; the whole question of what may constitute a conflict is still, I think, as Justice Rhodes-Smith found, very much up in the air. Councillor Ernst, perhaps somewhat legitimately felt that he didn't have a conflict.

I am not going to pass judgement, I think he breached the Act but he feels, I guess, that he did n't breach the spirit of the legislation and perhaps if he were here to argue his own case he would say the legislation should be more specific as to what constitutes a conflict, or less specific as to what constitutes a conflict, but in any event he would certainly, I think, argue that there should be some upgrading of the legislation so that people do not have to go through the sort of public censure as he well was exposed to.

Currently the deficiencies inhe rent in the legislation are rather obvious; cou ncillor s who want to evade the provisions of the Act simply leave the meeting when an item comes up so they don't necessarily have to disclose a conflict of interest. That, of course, leaves the decision as to whether there is an interest worth declaring up to the councillor which is a rather unusual situation. A person in public office actually makes a decision very often as to whether or not he or she may have a conflict of interest.

That doesn't seem fair to me; that's a burden that shouldn't be shouldered by the public representative and, worst of all, I think there's no onus on the councillor who does indicate that he is abstaining or does prefer to leave the room during a vote to disclose what the conflict of interest was. So the public doesn't really know what the nature of the conflict might have been. In the Ernst case, Councillor Ernst indicated that he had been leaving the room for many months, if not years, whenever a Martel-Stewart application was before council or committee.

Nobody had taken note of that because he'd never thought it sufficiently important to indicate why he was doing that. So, of course, it was unk nown to any member of the council that he had a special financial interest in the affected company. Mr. Chairman, it's my submission that the Smith Report is the only viable alternative to the current situation. I think that Councillor Smith and the other commissioners that were appointed, I think there were four or five, Mr. Elswood Bowles; Hugh Saunderson, the former president of the University of Manitoba; Robert Lane, yes, I think Robert Lane was appointed as well.

I think that tho se recommenda tions should now be taken out of mothballs, reviewed in the context of the Ernst situation. I needn't remind some of the members present, this has been with us for the past decade on a sustained basis. I can remember allegations brought against Councillor Leech by Councillor Kaufman in 19 76 which was every bit as controversial as the Ernst situation and affair. There were other allegation brought against Deputy Mayor Wolfe in 1976-77 which, as a matter of fact, caused the formation of the commission. No, those were in '76, excuse me.

But, nevertheless, it-seems to me that in order to protect cou ncillors and elected representatives from the scourge of unjustified public condemnation, one of the thi ngs we can do is upgrade the law in order that everybody knows the perils and other people who have a concern are profited by the fact that elected representatives must disclose some of their holdings and debts prior to taking office and engaging in that process. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, I'm leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 (tonight). SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR.

CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): Comm ittee will come to order. I di rect the honourable members' attention to Page 61 of the Main Estimates, Department of Health, Resolution No. 79, Clause 5. Manitoba Health Services Commission, Item (

e) Pharmacare Program- pass - the Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, if you look at the Annual Report of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, the description of th e Pharmacare Program is probably the sparsest, and I'm wondering if the Minister wouldn't take a bit of time on this one and explain the program, as it's not explained anywhere in the material that I have of the annual reports. I think that it's one that people ask a lot about and I have some questions to raise on it later, especially regarding the user fee, but I think that an explanation is in order. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Pharmacare Program became effective on January 1st, 1975. The Manitoba Health Services Commission carries the responsi bility for adminis tration and funding of the program. The program was developed by a committee that included representatives of the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association and the Manitoba government. It was implemented by that committee and it continues to be monitored by that committee.

Since the inception of the program in January, 1975, sir, there have been annual minor expansions to the program in the form of the list of insured drugs. These annual expansions result from new drug products entering the pharmaceutical market, being appr oved by the Drug Standards and Therepeutics Committee of the province