Manitoba Hansard — 7 April 1972 (Sitting 31, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'clock Friday, April 7, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTR ODUCTION OF GUESTS 709 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery, where we have 68 students of Grade 12 standing of the Millbank High School. These students are from South Dakota. They are under the direction of Mr. Dickhaut. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here today. MR.

SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (M inister of Industry and Commerce)( Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take the opportunity to table in the House

part 1 of the report being pre pared under the Regional Analysis Program. It's called Data Regional Analysis Program of Southern Manitoba and copies are available therefore for each group in the House and for the library and if any particular members would like additional copies I would be pleased to present them. This provides factual data on economic and social conditions in Southern Manitoba. I would also like to take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to draw to the attention of the Members of the House various charts and tables at the entrance to the Legislative Building.

At this location various summaries are provided in graphic form of some of the data which we have gathered in this particular survey. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. LA URENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs): (S t. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, this morning I was in touch with Judge Hewak. I informed him that I would appear before th:.l inquiry willingly -- inasmuch as my name has been linked with some controversial issues I believe that it is important that I make myself available.

I am ready to testify under oath without parliamentary unity and I don't intend to ask the taxpayers of the province to pay any legal fees on my behalf. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements -- reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Oral Questions; The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Bi rtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would ask my question to the First Minister in the absence of the Minister for Transportation. Will the First Minister indicate to us when the report of the Taxi Cab Inquiry Committee will be tabled in the House? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, from the latest infor mation I have on this matter, I have the impression that they have not completed their con siderations as yet and so I am unable to say when the report will be tabled but I expect it will be before session's end. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the First Minister indicate if indeed the inquiry will be holding more meetings? MR. SCHREYER: Negative. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID R.

BLAKE (Mi nnedosa): My question would be for the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Would the Minister be prepared to table a copy of the departmental report assessing the management capabilities of Western Flyer Industries? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister o.f Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the honourable member is a little

710 April 7, 1972 (MR. EVANS: cont'd) ..... more specific than he was yesterday about reports. First of all there is no departmental report criticising the management of Flyer Industries Limited. As I said yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I receive many reports on the progress of Flyer Coach Indus tries Limited. The latest report I have which shows that the sales for this year will be double that of last year and there will be an expansion in staff. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (L akeside): A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, directed to the Minister of Industey and Commerce.

Will the Minister table the report that Mr. Peter Warren is going to be making public on Monday morning on the matter of management of Western Flyer? Will the Minister table that report and give us the benefit of that information too? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of listening to the same radio program as my honourable friend from Lakeside this morning and for the life of me --(Interjection)-- for the life of me, Sir, I state categorically in this darn House that there is no report and I don't know what Mr. Peter Warren is talking about.

I have no such report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question, a final supplementary question -- let me recom mend the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce for devoting that much time to listening to the radio . .. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The honourable member is debating. The Hon- . ourable Member for Roblin. MR. J, WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question now to the First Minister in the absence of the Minister of Transportation.

I wonder does the government propose to grant additional taxi cab franchises to rural Manitoba or the Indian reservations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the part of rural Manitoba that my honourable friend is referring to is the Grandview-Roblin area I would say that I am not aware that there is any such intention on the part of the board although since the time that Grandview has been named as the black bear capital of Canada, it may be that tourist activity will increase and will require additional taxi cab service. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (T hompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Is the government in the process of attempting to persuade hospitals to require the establishment of Abortion Committees where they presently do not have them? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is a matter of policy but I believe it can be said that there is no effort being made by the government to coerce any hospital board to set up or to cause to have set up such a committee as the Honourable Member is referring to.

I believe that answers the question. MR. BOROWSKI: A supplementary question. I take it then, Mr. Speaker, there will be no economic penalties or sanctions taken against hospitals who refuse to set up committees. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member is aware under the present law of Canada it is open to hospital boards to cause to have set up such medical committees. However, no hospital board is required to do so and therefore it would be wrong to levy any kind of penalty directly or indirectly to such hospitals. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E.

JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. With respect to Western Flrer Coach is it the practice with that company to, when making bids, to bid to show a profit or to get the bid at any price, in other words, at a loss. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is asking me a technical ques tion of business practice.

I can just say that I have great confidence in the management of that company -- it's been demonstrated by the increasing sales that it is experiencing all over North America, with some potential in Mexico city. I can say I believe confidently that their bidding is in accordance with what they feel is in the best economic interests of the development of the company. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris.

April 7, 1972 711 MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my ques tion to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. It's in connection with the tabling of the report of the Community Regional Analysis Program. Did I understand him correctly to say that copies of this report will be available to all members of the House and that they would be dis tributed in the Chamber? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, my intention was to make one available to each group, but I also indicated that if other members had a special interest -- if particular members had an interest in this type of data, that I would undertake to provide those members with a copy of that report. I wasn't sure whether everybody wanted to have one for personal use. MR. JORGENSON: Well,' Mr. Speaker, are there sufficient copies available for all members of the Legislative Chamber? MR. EVANS: I was making that assumption that there were. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: I direct a question, Mr.

Speaker, to the Honourable the House Leader. I wonder, Sir, if the House Leader could tell me whether or not he has received any indication from any private member or otherwise as to when he will be introducing a measure bringing in aid to private and parochial schools. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (M inister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I believe that my hon ourable friend should be aware of the fact that no private member has to channel through the House Leader any private resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR.

EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Heal th and Social Development. Would the Minister indicate when the Blakely Report, recommending enlargement of Pembina House at Ninette Sanitorium is going to be implemented? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M, FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Speaker, I' d like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Is it the intention of the government to reduce the insurance rates on tractors? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(S elkirk): I believe that the honourable member would be wise to be a little bit more specific in the nature of his request for information and if he has any particular area of concern to give me the details of it I'll take it under review and then advise him. INTR ODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 150 students of Grade 11 standing of the Steinbach Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Reimer, Mr. Epp and Mr. Dyck. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, it is in accordance with the rules of the House that the first order of business will be the adjourned debate on the Budget Speech. MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: . . . the member for River Heights, the Leader of the Opposition, can we have this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? The Honourable House Leader. MR. PA ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, before agreeing I woll.ld like to point out

712 April 7, 1972 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... to honourable members that in accordance with the rules of the House there is a time limitation of eight days; this being seven days from now, this is the second day, that in accordance with the rules of the House there is that time limitation. I have no objection to the adjournment continuing in the name of the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion but I think in all fairness to members of the House that if any other honourable member desires to take part, he should be allowed or she should be allowed so to do. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Speaker, just further to that point raised by the House Leader, certain ly there's no objection on the part of the Leader of the Opposition to have any other members participate in the budget debate at this time. We are aware of the traditional precedent established in this matter; this does count as one of the days of the budget debate whether we choose to use it or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: If I may then, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you, Sir, would ask if any other member wishes to speak at this time that they'd be permitted so to do. MR.

SPEAKER: Do we wish to proceed on the motion to go into Ways and Means? Any member? (S tand) MR. PAULLEY: Now then, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would mind calling Bill No. 5, Succession Duty Act, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Hon ourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable House Leader -- I thought maybe he was going to by-pass this bill.

He was in a generous mood this morning, wanting to get at his estimates and I thought he was sure to go right into W'Jys and Means and deal with the Depart ment of Labour. But seemingly he isn't anxious to get at that department this morning after the hectic time we had here this afternoon, yesterday afternoon, and --(Interjections)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. McKELLAR: So I did come half prepared here to deal with this Bill No. 5, Succes sion Tax Bill, a bill which many of us never thought we would live long enough to see in the Province of Manitoba -- Provincial Succession Duty Tax Bill. Mr.

Speaker, it makes one wonder just how long we're going to have to pay taxes in this world. The Federal Government in 196 8 said that all estates should be passed on to the wife without any tax. The Federal Government last year in their Capital Gains Tax ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I should like to suggest -- I realize it's aggressive weather in Manitoba but the overtones are getting the best of the undertones and I can't hear what's going on so would the honourable members conduct themselves a little more quietly. The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKELLAR: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

It's very difficult on a morning to speak to an audience that's not listening but that's one thing we can't do in this House, is make people listen if they don't want to. I found that out many years ago; it's very difficult. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, last year, this past year the Federal Government brought in a Capital Gains Tax which was right and proper and I agree lOO% with it -- which actually said that you would pay tax on your Capital Gains and the estate could be transferred at the time of death without any tax being borne by the beneficiary or by the estate. Mr.

Speaker, that is the right approach, but what did the Government of Manitoba do - they're not satisfied to take their portion of the Capital Gains Tax - they want more tax and last night we heard all about the great coming of 1972 and 1973 by the Minister of Finance of our province. Great things are going to take place in Manitoba in '72 and '73. In one breath, Mr. Speaker, they're gonna drain your pockets of all your money.

In the next breath they say, lo and behold we're gonna get another cheque equal to the brave amount which they all talk - maximum $140. 00 minimum $50. 00 and this is what they're so proud about. But what are they taking off the people of Manitoba? What are they taking off the people of Manitoba? Mr. Speaker, this isn't a tax that deals with $200, 000. This is a tax on all estates over $50, 000. This is what the people of Manitoba got to really realize. In the final analysis it will be estates within a family will be taxed over $50, 000.

It mightn•t be in your time, it mightn't be in mine but some time they're going to be taxed at the rate of $50, 000. Mr. Speaker, if there ever was discrimination, if there ever was discrimination, it's right in this bill right here·-- right here! And I shouldn't have to stand up here and defend people who never got married, who never had families. Why should I have to get up and defend

April 7, 1972 713 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) .. ... them. But, Mr. Speaker, there's discrimination and it's about high time that the government realized it. I'm getting letters -- and some of the letters have been forwarded on to the First Minister -- from people in my constituency who say that it isn't right and proper when they paid taxes all through their life - that they're treated dif ferently when they're a single person compared with a married man or the wife of a family. So, Mr. Speaker, I want to mention that fact. Mr. Speaker, we are paying capital gains tax; we are paying income tax. Mr.

Speaker, the Province of Manitoba are getting their fair share of these taxes. The Minister of Finance of our province makes a big howdy-do about equity - equity in the Province of Manitoba - we want equity. How can you have equity, Mr. Speaker, when our provincial income tax is 42.5 percent of the federal tax when Ontario is 30. 5 percent and Alberta is 32. 5 percent - with Alberta with no sales tax, and Alberta with no estates taxes, succession duties and no gift tax. Is that equity, Mr. Speaker? I say "no".

If we want equity in the Province of Manitoba let• s be fair with the people of the Province of Manitoba and deliver on the grounds when you say that you're having equity in the Province of Manitoba. --(Interjection)-- Mr. Speaker, the First Minister might say that Ontario taxes are higher but it doesn't work out in actual fact - it doesn't work out in actual fact. Mr. Speaker, what does the succession duty mean to the average family, third and fourth generations in the Province of Manitoba.

And I want to read a little paragraph here -- The philosophy of the government of the day -- and I think it bears out in this little short para graph and I want to read this quoting from the Minister of Finance, Page 433: "Only by im plementing a succession duty and gift tax system can we be certain that at least some of our potential revenue can be offset. And again, more important that the standards of equity which we have strived to attain in the province's taxation structure can be preserved. " What a fan tastic statement, Mr. Speaker. What a fantastic statement!

It makes you wonder, it makes you wonder for those of us who went to school and know what the word "equity" means. How can the Minister of Finance get up and say that he is preserving equity in the Province of Manitoba. I doubt very much if the people of the Province of Manitoba will believe the Minis ter of Finance if they read this paragraph in Hansard, Page 433. --(Interjection)-- If the honourable member keeps quiet over there I can make a better speech. I only ask him - he's got the floor, Mr. Speaker, if he wants to make a speech. He hasn't said an�thing this session yet.

It's about time he's getting up off his fanny and doing something --(In terjections) but I don't like interjections when I'm delivering a speech this time of the morning. (Interjections)-- And here's another great paragraph, Page 430. "And when that person dies and through his will transfers accumulated wealth to others, it becomes the responsibility of the govern ment" - Mr.

Speaker, I want to repeat that - "it becomes the responsibility of the government to ensure that this transfer, which really constitutes incomesto the recipients , does not place them in an unreasonably advantageous position relative to those members of society. " And what, Mr. Speaker, does this Honourable Minister of Finance who is not here this morning, want to do? Does he want to draw the people with low incomes up to the high level? No, he doesn't. He wants to draw the people with the high incomes down to the bottom level and put everybody on welfare!

That's the answer to this government -- that's their answer! Put everybody on welfare and then they can go and say: We'll give you all $140 and tell the people to go home and be happy. Mr. Speaker, that's not the answer to our society. The answer to our society is to give everybody the right to make the best living for themselves that they can make and for their families and not discourage them, not discourage them by having succession duties, by having high income tax and other high taxes that the people of the province just aren't going to live with. And why aren't they going to live with these taxes, Mr.

Speaker? Because the easy answer, the easy answer to Bill No. 5 is to pack your bags, sell your property and go ... 100 miles west. That's the answer to Bill No. 5 and if you think, Mr. Speaker, that the people aren't going to do this you better think again because this is really the answer to Bill No. 5. Why should we have a succession duty in the Province of Manitoba. Ontario said they're going to phase theirs off. The Maritimes have half-a-million exemptions --(Interjection)- half-a-million exemptions.

Saskatchewan and Manitoba, the only two socialist governments in Canada today, have exemptions of $200, 000 maximum that's from husband to spouse. This is, Mr. Speaker, this is the answer to the problem. Why should the people of Manitoba be penal ized by a tax bill that really isn't going to do anything for the Province of Manitoba?

714 April 7, 1972 (M R. McKELLAR cont'd) .. ... isn't going to. The. Minister made great reference to the fact that only maybe one-in-a-thousand estates will be taxed and I can say that if there is only one-in-a-thousand and he says he isn't going to get very much tax out of this bill, why bother? Why bother? Mr.

Speaker, it's unbelievable to think that we in Manitoba who own property and I must make reference to that - who own property - are put in a different position un.der this Succes sion Duty Tax Bill than a person who has got bonds in the bank or money in the bank -- why should the man with the property be penalized? And I think the Honourable Member for Brandon West referred to that. If a man died in Alberta with a son in Manitoba and owned a farm in Manitoba, the son as beneficiary would have to pay tax on that property.

But if the man had money and died in Alberta with a son in Manitoba, he could forward the money on as a beneficiary without tax. This is the explanation that I got in our meetings with Legislative Counsel. Now this is a penalty on a person who owns property and goodness knows we're penalized enough. Last night the Minister made great reference to the fact that he is going to give a mini mum of $5 0, maximum $140 to everyone who rents property, to everyone that rents property.

I don't see anything wrong with renting property because everybody can't own property but the person who rents is in a different position than the man who owns property. The man who owns property is an established person and can't just pull out overnight and move to another province or move to another city.

He's obligated by the debts of that community and has to accept those responsibilities but a man in a rented property is in a different light altogether, and when you treat the person with rented property the same as you do the man that owns property I think it' s wrong and the man -- he's being discriminated against entirely. Manitoba, Manitobans have been proud, always proud, to own something of their own, to own something of their own and I think we're losing something when we treat them in a different light. Mr. Speaker, we've heard so much about tax jungles.

The Minister last night made much reference to tax jungles in the Province of Manitoba and for this very reason that we have a tax jungle now second to none by opposing gift tax, gift tax and succession duty tax, in the Province of Manitoba.

It makes the tax jungle that much greater and I would say as many others have said in this debate that succession duty taxes or estate taxes should be only im posed at the federal level, they should never be imposed at the provincial level and I realize that Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia have had their succession duty taxes for many years within their own province but I think it would be far better if it was done at the federal level. This is a far better way of collecting taxes and relating them so that each one in Canada is treated the same. So the tax jungle gets greater, Mr.

Speaker, the tax jungle gets greater and we're back to the point right now where I can see that each province is going to outbid each other from now on. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to carry on much longer because I know there's other members of the House here that's got something to say on this very important bill and we'll be having a lot more to say on it when we're dealing with it, clause by clause discussion in committee here, and at that time I think that we'll express ourselves on individual clauses and I think for that reason I'll take my seat and say once again that I object to a Provincial Succession Duty Tax being instituted in the Province of Manitoba.

It's wrong and at a time when Manitoba -- we need investment money and all the assistance that we can get, I think we're discouraging that investment money that we so badly need. Thanks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (A ssiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member for Portage la Prairie, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, could I have this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER: (A greed) The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister for Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair.

April 7, 1972 715 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. Resolution 83 ... MR, PAULLEY: If you don't mind, Mr. Chairman before we go into further considera tion of the Estimates of the Department of Labour, may I indicate to the House that there has been a change in the order in which we will be considering the Estimates.

I have discussed this with the Member for Morris who acted on behalf of the Official Opposition, and it is in tended that following the consideration of Agriculture and Co-operatives that the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management would take it under consideration at that time. You may recall, Mr. Chairman, at the offset we undertook to give to members of the House any change in the order and I announce that now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Before we proceed with Resolution 82, may I draw to the attention of the members that as of yesterday when we started under the new rules by dividing the number of departments left with the amount of time left, if we spend the time of four hours and 30 minutes on the 16 departments this will leave us two hours and 35 minutes for the busi ness of Supply, including the main supplementary interim capital. So if that's agreeable with the committee that we spend four hours, approximately four hours and 30 minutes on the re maining departments, that is the calculation . . . MR. JAMES H.

BILTON (Swan River): That is agreeable to us on this side of the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Did I understand from the House Leader that other than the changing of the Mines and Natural Resources that the other departments would stay in the order announced previous. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: At the present time, yet, Mr. Speaker, and if there are further changes then I would be glad to inform the members as quickly as possible for their -- so that they know where we stand. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 83 (a) ... The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to clear up one or two questions that was asked of apprentices and in particular the electrical apprentices. The Honourable Member for Emerson devoted a fair amount of time to this matter and raised a few questions. I indicated just prior to the end of the session yesterday that the matter of consideration of the ratio of electrical apprentices had undergone a considerable amount of investigation.

We did find in the investigation, or prior to the investigation, that there was no firm ratio in the electrical industry and that in some trades there was a ratio of two mechanics to one apprentice and it varied and it's also varied right across the Dominion. And it was felt that in order to assure that the indentured apprentice would receive a reasonable degree of training from a journey man that the ratio would be better at two mechanics to one apprentice. I realize, Mr.

Chairman, that when the ratio came into effect on the 1st of January, or the 3rd of January actually of this year that it did cause some concern and I admit that it did result in some who thought that they were indentures as apprentices being deprived of their position as indentured apprentices. I want honourable members to know that last April a shut-off date was made in effect and all in the industry were notified that no further applications would be accepted at that time pending the adoption of the new ratio and --(Interjection)-- well March, okay. Thanks for the correction, it gives me an extra month then.

And they were so informed - but a number of employers, employees too I suppose, notwithstanding that date of March - registered or attempted to register within their own plants apprenticeship and were not given the approval by the registrar under the apprentice scheme and it was, generally speaking, in this particular area that caused the fervor that we've been faced with insofar as the ratio was concerned. I don't think that it's necessary for me to say to the honourable member how important it is that a person in the electrical industry has full knowledgeability of the electrical trade.

We require that in order to perform work an elec trician must be licenced and pass an exami nation for the protection of citizens of Manitoba. And I appreciate as I say, Mr. Chairman, that there was some inconvenience to some people but the department was interested in establishing a ratio -- there hadn't been one before -- and on investigation in some in stances we found that three or four apprentices were working with only one journeyman, and anyone who is working in the trade, I'm sure -- are knowledgeable of the operation of the

71 6 April 7, 1972 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... trade would agree, I think in all fairness that one journey man electrician cannot reasonably train four or five. It's not like school classrooms; this is a little bit different. My honourable friend the Member for Emerson also raised another question dealing with the resolution 83 , Mr. Chairman. He noted that there is a considerable increase of expendi ture in Other Expenditures, being Item B of Resolution 83.

I'm happy to announce that for the first time in the Province of Manitoba that the endeavours of many who are concerned in the apprentice trade or the apprentice field of e!ideavour, that for the first time in our history some allowances for board and keep are going to be awarded to the apprentices while undergoing their training. Efforts have been made over the past number of years to have some allowance made to the apprentices, without being achieved -- we are going to do it.

Honour able members may be aware that under the Federal retraining programs or apprentice pro grams, there is some allowance made to apprentices after they have had three years in the trade and then left and go in for retraining, such was not the case. I want to pay a particular tribute to one Arni Bjornson, a representative of the carpenter trade who tried for a long time to get successive governments to agree to this and I'm sure that he will appreciate the endeavours of this government to make some provision. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): Mr.

Chairman, I want to first of all thank the Minister for his explanations on the increases in other areas. I also want to thank the Minis ter for his reasonableness in his presentation." It's a welcome change. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that last night's exposition was a little bit like the grouse that wants to detract attention from the nest and we're not quite prepared, Mr. Chairman, to be dissuaded quite that easily. I would .like to pursue a little further the area of apprenticeship and how the rules are set, who makes the decisions and on what grounds. I want to affirm, Mr.

Chairman, that I do have the Atwell Report that he mentioned yes terday. I want to affirm, Mr. Chairman, that I have read the Atwell Report that he refers to, and I want to tell the Minister that if that is the only thing that he has had with reference to resource and information on which to base his decisions he's basing his decisions on not a great deal because by the very admission of Mr. Atwell in his report he suggests that one thing we don't know is how many certificated journeyman have we got in Manitoba.

Those figures he says seem unavailable from any of us and they do not appear in the report from your department. How many certificated journeyman from Manitoba are working elsewhere? Do we have any information on that, Mr. Chairman? Do we have any information with regard to how many were unemployed for how long, Mr. Chairman? We do not have that, and I sug gest to you that the Minister doesn't know either and yet he is prepared by Order-in-Council to make a law because just in case or I have been told or I have heard that -- I have been told, Mr.

Chairman, that on the basis of the recommendations he did have, he seems to have somewhat bold. I would like to also comment, Mr. Chairman, on the matter I raised yesterday, the matter of the meeting at which the decisions were made. During that meeting the proposition was raised by the representative of the Minister -- nobody else -- the member from Red River Community College abstained from voting and so it created an automatic deadlock, opened the gate and the Minister's decision went through. And I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that surely there must be a little more democratic way of doing things.

Now, another matter I find a little bit strange in this area is that we have Orders-in Council that expand on the legislation that is in this province, and we do find that the Minister for some reason decides that by a decree of the Minister -- not by Order-in-Council -- he can change that law. He advised business organizations that they are not to employ or register or encourage more apprentices to come his way. Now I'd like to read, Mr. Chairman, a letter that was written to one of the firms in Manitoba in this regard. The letter is dated March 17t h.

It says and I quote: "The report on ratio applicable to the apprenticeship program in the electrician construction trade in Manitoba prepared by Professor Atwell, School of Commerce, University of Manitoba, is now available. The Honourable A. R. Paulley, Minister of Labour, has asked me to send you a copy of this report and to advise you concerning his proposal at this time." On March 12th, 1971, Mr. Paulley wrote to Mr. Joseph Wall, President of Electrical Contra cto·rs Association of Manitoba and suggested that the Association not take any new

April 7, 1972 717 (MR. GIRARD cont•d) .. ... apprentices pending the establishment of a ratio - and I quote Mr. Paulley's letter: "I would request that the members of the Electrical Contractor Associ ation of Manitoba as of this time not take any new apprentices until the question of ratios in this trade is settled. " On March 12, 1971, Mr. John E. Pullen, Business Manager and Financial Secretary of Local 2085, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, was also notified by Mr. Paulley concerning this ftlbject: "The enclosed copy of Professor Atwell•s report is therefore made available for your perusal.

Please give the report and Mr. Paulley's suggestion your earnest consideration." My suggestion is that it's a little strange for a Minister to ahead of the change of law -- the Order-in-Council was made official on January 3rd -- ahead of them, suggests to the enterprise you are advised not to and then this morning accused them of breaking the law, accused them of not being, not operating in good faith I suppose, because they did take on apprenticeships after he had written this letter. A MEMBER: No, they did not. MR. GIRARD: Now, Mr.

Chairman, I feel that something is strange when Ministers can effectively change the laws that exist to suit their own whims. I'd like to ask a few more ques tions of the Minister and I want to assure him that I'm not always wondering and I don't think I'm wandering either. I would like to try and be somewhat specific. I wonder though if he would like to talk about his interviews with the counsel representing the electrical contractors and the kind of discussions that occurred at that time. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minis ter would be honest enough to acknowledge ... MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. MR.

PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege. I don't mind the guck that the member is uttering at the present time but I in all due respect question as to whether he should be privileged to question my honesty. MR. CHAffiMAN: The point is well taken, I was just going to ... MR. GIRARD: Mr. Chairman, I gladly retract. You know, it was a manner of speech rather than questioning your honesty, Sir -- I have enough judgment not to question your honesty. --(Interjection)-- Certainly, Mr.

Chairman, I would certainly not consider his honesty in this at all, any kind of jeopardy -- it's his judgment that I would question. I wonder if he would permit his judgment to tell us why he made the kind of proposition he made, why it is that the Order-in-Council was brought to Cabinet and changed. Is it be cause he thought that there were real unemployment problems with regards to this trade?

Is it that he thought the work slow-down would create a surplus of qualified journeymen, or is it rather that on the request of the union that he would like to have the number of journeymen restricted in order to force an upward trend in the cost of that kind of service. And I also wonder, Mr. Chairman, if in his deliberations at any time did he consider those students who aspire to be electrical contractors, or is that unimportant to the Minister of Labour. I suggest that throughout the correspondence and throughout Mr.

Atwell• s report there is no thought in the least of the ambition that these young people have to become productive members of our society. As a matter of fact, one young gentleman to whom I have spoken recently was advised by a member of your department to look to some other trade, fellow -- you know, there's just no room here for you. You might as well have told him, look to some other province because here we're not prepared to accommodate you, and I think that that is shame ful, Mr. Chairman. I really do think that is shameful. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister of Labour who should acknowledge a lack of experience or a lack of - if not experience at least resource material, a lack of information on the basis to which to make these decisions. I wonder if he was ever asked to set up some kind of enquiry into the matter, an enquiry that would be substantial to assess if nothing else the most importang thing and that is the number of certified men, the number of jobs that will be available and the number of people of that calibre that is unemployed.

Has that suggestion been made to him by the counsel representing the electrical contractors and if it has been made, Mr. Chairman, I wonder what his reaction was? Was it -- we are interested and we will -- or was it without saying the words, the decision's already made, fellow, don't bother me with these enquiries. --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: I predicted yesterday, Mr. Chairman, that the kind of restriction im posed in this area by the Minister will eventually lead to a shortage of qualified journeymen in

718 April 7, 1972 (MR. GIRARD cont'd) . . . . . Manitoba, and at times when a large number might be required by some significant development that we will be importing journeymen from elsewhere and it would seem to me more reasonable to try and train our own. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if some of the statements that the Minister has allegedly made would kind of indicate his attitude in this matter.

I think it is true that he is dissatisfied with the contributions made on the Advisory Council by the representative of the contractors and I think that he has at some time, maybe not publicly, but he has at some time at least, indicated this bitter disapproval of the kind of adamant stand they have taken. As a matter of fact, at one stage, I am told that they even walked out of the meeting. Now the Council is made up of three union representatives and three members of the industry, representing management. What was the Minister's reaction, Mr. Chairman, when the three from the management area left the council?

What was his reaction? Oh he says, "we'll change the legislation, we'll just change the legislation if that's necessary so that we might not have to have these three bothersome fellows on the council. " Now if that is the case, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if that tells us something about the attitude of the Minister with regard to what he would do and how impartial he happens to be. MR. CHAIRMAN: ... hear the honourable member speaking. Would the members please if they are going to have meetings - order please.

If you are going to have meetings, I would suggest you conduct them out in the hall or in your caucus room, not in the Chamber. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Chairman, contrary to the accusations of the Minister yesterday, don't think that on this particular issue he is in a position to take away anybody's head. I think his temper tantrums were a sheer exposition and designed to take away the concentration on this issue that might exist. I think it might be the thought that in his sermon , if he hollers louder, he can cover up a weak point.

But, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that that is quite so. The information that I have received - and I think I have received a considerable amount, I want to assure him I have read it - and it tells me that willy-nilly no matter who said what, the Minister's view was going to be made into law and so we have it today. He speaks of ratios in other provinces, very slightly though, because generally speaking the ratio is one to one. There are exceptions both ways, but generally speaking, the ratio is a one to one.

I would refer to him to the Atwell report in this matter, if he is puzzled as to whether the facts are right or not. Go a little further, Mr. Chairman, and we can look at the courses that these apprentices are to take - and I suggest that Manitoba, in terms of time at least is quite considerable compared to other provinces. We are not going to spend too many hours on this particular issue I hope. I do want to let the Minister know that I am disappointed with his autocratic way of making these decisions and I would like one more que stion answered by the Minister .

I would just like him to tell me what am I going to advise the young fellow, the young man -- and I'll give you his name, by the way, Mr. Chairman, his name is John McDiarmid -- a young man. who has had for some time the ambition of becoming an electrical contractor for many reasons. He has gone through his Grade 12 in order to prepare himself and now he finds there is no way he can take this particular course in Manitoba. I just wonder if it is because this young man doesn't happen to be a member of the union and he has not been recommended by a union to the Minister. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if that has any beariny with regard to his acceptance or rejection? What should I advise that young gentleman? Should I advise him to go to another province or is there a chance for him in Manitoba? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: You know, Mr. Chairman, I like to listen to my honourable friend because the more I listen to him, the more I am convinced that he knows nothing at all about the operation of industry.

The more I listen to my honourable friend, the more I am convinced of his lack of understanding as to the purposes of apprentice training; the more I listen to him, the more I think that he, rather than I, should undertake some research into the whole purpose of apprenticeship training. The purpose of apprenticeship training is not specifically to pro vide jobs as such but to train people who would be qualified in a particular sphere of endeavour, and in this particular case, referring to electricians.

I want to tell my honourable friend as one who has been involved in apprentice training periods and activities longer than my honourable friend, I suppose, has even been gracing this

April 7, 1972 719 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... earth, I am appreciative of the - you keep quiet - the more I understand his lack for . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! Carry on please. MR. PAULLEY: ... I am an ex apprentice and if the same thoughts of my honourable friend and his expressions of them this morning had been put into effect, we would not have had qualified mechanics in my particular trade, which happened to be the upholstering trade. If the same suggestions of my honourable friend in the electrical industry had been adopted, we wouldn't have had properly trained electricians in the Province of Manitoba.

And this is the purpose of a ratio. My friend, quite properly, refers to a meeting that was held in my office by the solicitor for the sub-contractors. As a matter of fact, in order to bring my honourable friend up-to date of that particular gentleman, he came into my office bearing a twig which he said, "here is the peace branch.

Would you please acquiesce and give in to me, because you are an old buddy of mine" but -- I think he accepted my explanation eventually, although my honourable friend is using it this morning -- that I was determined as the Minister of Labour to do what ever I could to have properly trained people in the Province of Manitoba in order to perform the services that are required by law: that they must show their qualification, they must be licensed and this is what my honourable friend forgets or overlooks. Other trades have quotas of apprenticeship, apprentices to journeymen.

I said at the offset in answer to the Member for Emerson that in the electrical trade there was no ratio - there was no ratio -- and it could conceivably be that some employers - thank the Lord they are not all the same - that some employers could attempt to have 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 apprentices at lower wages working with one journeyman. Some of these people I'm sure that my honour able friend has been in contact with, were people who attempted to do this, and I won't stand for it while I'm Minister of Labour.

But despite all what my honourable friend said, there is one thing that he says that I want to take grave exception to, and that was his reference, Mr. Chairman, to me or this government changing the law by Order-i n-Council. This is utter nonsense because any of my honourable friends in this House who have had any opportunity, or taken the opportunity - and apparently the Member for Emerson has not - to even give superficial study to the law, knows that the government no matter what the government is, cannot change law by Order-in-Council.

There is provided in the Apprenticeship Act a provision for regulation and certain things that can be done by regulation. There is the establishment of an advisory board in the area of apprentice training, with equal representation from management and labour and with input of trained people in the field of apprentice training from the Department, and that was the board that gave me guidance in the establishing of an apprentice ratio. And my honourable friend is right, Mr. Chairman, when he says at one stage --(Interjection)-- of course, dead right mentally, because he hasn't developed -- but, Mr.

Chairman, he is right when he says that the representatives of the employer group walked out of an advisory board meeting; and he is right when he says that the Minister of Labour said well now look, if you are not going to ful fil the law and appoint representatives, if you think for one moment that by walking out of the advisory committee, which is a requirement of law, that you are going to stop the wbole pro cess and progress of the apprentices training, then I'll damn well change the law.

That's the circumstance and that is why, that is why the solicitor came into my office bearing the olive branch, and I said to him --(In terjection)-- and he informs you correctly - I informed him that if this is going to be the attitude of the people he represents that they are going to try and prevent the fulfilment of the law, then we'll change the law so that they can't or don't have

part in the deliberations. That was the circumstance, and I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that I was perfectly correct. --(In terjection)-- No I am not . . . You were one of the lawmakers and some of the damn laws that you made when you were on this side of the House are the ones that we've got to over come today. Mr. Chairman, reference is made to the lack of consultation between management and labour in the observations of Mr. Atwell, Professor Atwell. I assure you, Sir, and the mem bers of this committee that this document, this report from Mr. Atwell was after full study, as much as possible.

Certainly there's deficiencies. I suggest the deficiencies of my honour able friend from Emerson are out of all proportion to any minimal deficiencies that there may be in this report. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson.

720 April 7, 1972 MR. GIRARD: I would like to make very many more comments in rebuttal but I don't want to take up more time, but there is one question that I would like the Minister to enlighten me on. What am I going to advise this young fellow who has applied to enter the apprentice ship program? MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I would suggest to my honourable friend if he gives that individual the same type of advise that he's attempting to give to the House, the fellow will be misled. (Interjection)-- What was that? MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please.

The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: You know, I think some people would be more knowledgeable in the field of how to operate a ranch than in the field of apprentice training. I say to my honourable friend, don't give him the same type of advice as you are trying to give here. You can advise him - or if you don't want to, I will - I will advise him that we have an apprentice ratio in the Province of Manitoba and if unfortunately he cannot qualify under that ratio then he will have to have some other employment. And he's not alone. He's not alone. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Chairman, I wonder . . . MR.

CHAffiMAN: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Which would be the best province I can direct him to then? MR. PAULLEY: Pardon? MR. GffiARD: Which would then be the best province I can direct him to in order to achieve what he really wants. MR. PAULLEY: Possibly into the Conservative province of Ontario where the ratio is one apprentice to four journeymen. MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolution 83 was read and passed) Resolution 84 (a) -- The Hon ourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (F ort Rouge): Mr.

Chairman, it had not been my intention to speak on the Estimates of the Department of Labour. However, after listening to the Minister in introducing his Estimates and some of his rather disparaging remarks about the record of the Conservative Government, since that - for instance, he says that we merely paid lip service to the process of collective bargaining. But all this brought back to my mind the remarks that the Minister made when he first introduced his Estimates, at the first session of the present Legislature in August of 1969.

I was so impressed at that time - his were the first Estimates to be brought forward - and he stood up wreathed in smiles ... glowing with sunshine to give a very favourable re port about labour conditions in the province. So yesterday I looked up that records, Hansard of August 29, 1969, page 322 and I'd like to read it and remind the Minister how things really were in those days of Conservative Government.

The Minister said "At the present time un employment in Manitoba together with the two other prairie provinces is at the lowest in the country, below the arbitrary three percent full employment figure, and is lower even than it was at this time last year. And we all trust that it will continue to be so in the Province of Manitoba. Wages.are advancing, though not as rapidly as some may wish. We will work to create an environment where continued increases in relation to other aspects will materialize.

In this setting the industrial relations climate is excellent and we are taking steps on our part to have it stay this way." Mr. Chairman, that's how it was -- in 1969 when the Conservative Government handed the department to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, how sweet it was. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to rise on this occasion after the verbal assault that was launched on this Chamber last night by the Minister. The howitzers that he threw up to the front lines and fired willy-nilly across the way, were really something to behold.

I hope that my remarks will not be such as to provoke the Minister into another such assault. I want to raise with him a question that by comparison with that raised by my friend the Member from Emerson is rather tame. Sir, I know that it does not come under the juris diction of the Minister of Labour of the Province of Manitoba but it is a labour matter and I think that I should like to raise it at this time.

I want to say that at the outset I'm not particularly a hockey fan in this country but I speak for the many Canadians who are chagrined and frustrated at not being able to watch the hockey games on Saturday night over the CBC because of the strike that is going on with the Association of Electricians and Technicians, I know that it is a source of a great deal of

April 7, 1972 721 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd ) ..... annoyance to a good many Canadians. However, there is always a brighter side and I'm going to take the brighter side of this situation because as I said earlier I am not particularly a keen hockey fan so it doesn't matter that much to me. But I would like to have the Minister, I wonder if the Minister would use his good offices to ensure that that strike continues, because since they have been on strike there has been a remarkably great improvement in the quality of the CBC programming.

We have had in the past an end less parade under the name of "culture" inflicted upon Canadians: an endless parade of pimps, prostitutes, homosexuals, topless dancers, bottomless dancers. MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if the honourable member could speak to the item under dis cussion. I don't see where the CBC is listed anywhere in the Estimates of the Department of Labour. MR. JORGENSON: I mentioned earlier and I qualify that by saying it came under the matter of labour relations.

This is a labour matter, and I am simply attempting to point out to the Minister that in lieu of this endless parade -- and I've mentioned some of them I'll con tinue -- activists, communists, hippies and long-haired yippies, dope addicts and junkies. We now have a . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital on a point of order? MR. JAMES WALDING (S t. Vit al): Yes, Mr. Chairman. Would the honourable member identify the document from which he is reading. MR. JORGENSON: . . . I can jot them all down on a piece of paper. I'd be happy to give it to my honourable friend in case he can't . . .

He can follow it in Hansard when the time comes. But I want to say that since that strike has been on these people have been unable to appear on the CBC on their cultural programs and we've been treated to a much higher quality of entertainment in culture. We have been able to listen to music that is pleasant, and indeed visitors coming to this country now are remarking about the high quality of the program ming on the CBC, and I hope that that will continue for many years to come. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, the only comment I would make to my honourable friend, he knows full well that the CBC is under federal labour jurisdiction. I didn't want to interrupt on a point of order, the utterances of my honourable friend and I appreciated his re marks very well. I believe there are two or three representatives of the Conservative Party down at Ottawa aad in all due respect I suggest that he should let them know the way he feels.

And as far as shows are concerned, I'm sure the population of Manitoba if they only knew of some of the shows that my honourable friend participates in, these galleries would be con stantly filled. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Just briefly, Mr. Chairman. We have all recognized the contribution that the Minister of Labour has some time made in areas outside of his jurisdictio n.

I refer to a specific matter such as the strike, the prolonged strike in Flin Flon, which was also outside of his jurisdiction, and it was in that vein, Sir, that the Honourable Member for Morris felt himself completely in order to avail himself to the good offices of that great Manitoban, that great Minister of Labour to prevail upon his labour colleagues to perhaps prolong their holi days somewhat longer so that we may enjoy his . . . Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 84 (a) --passed; (b)-- passed. Resolution 84 . . . The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I wasn't in the House yesterday afternoon. I had to be absent and earlier on after the Minister had made his opening remarks I cert ainly extended the courtesy to my other colleagues to speak first and therefore have been unable to say any thing so far on the Estimates under the Labour Department. My remarks will be brief, Mr. Chairman, but it has to do with labour relations. I find when going out in rural Manitoba especially that businessmen will ask me, well what is the situation for the coming year in connection with the minimum wage -- are we to expect further increases or what is the situati on ?

At this time I would like to know from the Minister what is the situation in connection with the minimum wage for the current year and also the fiscal year of a government. Is there any intention to increase the minimum wage at this time ? I feel that business and especially smaller businesses should know well ahead of time as to what the situation may be because - the Member for Radisson asked what should it be. Well, you know the matter of minimum wage is a matter that is similar to what ·the Canadian

722 April 7, 197 2 (MR. FROESE cont'd) . _. . . . Federation of Agriculture when it debates prices and so on. You have the western farmer versus the eastern feeder and so on and you have controversy and I think in most cases the western producer loses out because the votes are down east. I'm just wondering what the situation is in Manitoba as far as this government is concerned. Who wins out ? It used to be that farm help was considered under the Minister of Agriculture 's Estimates.

I find nothing in the Estimates for that purpose and is the Labour Department com pletely in charge at the present time, is it all combined? Maybe the Minister could inform us on this matter. Com ing back to the minimum wage, I feel that business people in the province should have notice if such a thing is considered and this government being a socialist government that prides itself with planning and has so many various planning committees functioning, even in top level of government, that certainly they must have given consideration to this matter otherwise they wouldn't be true to form.

Maybe the Minister could tell us just what they have in mind in this regard. I was rather amused earlier this morning hearing the Member for Emerson speak in connection with labour, having taken on that position in the Conservative caucus. I'm just wondering whether in Manitoba the teachers are now joining labour, too, having a teacher representative speak for the cause of labour in the Conservative Party. Maybe he could at some time enlarge on that, too, because I' m very interested to hear from him.

Again coming back to the minimum wage, we find that there is a big squeeze as far as agriculture is concerned to absorb any increases. When we find that even larger farms, as we were told at Beausejour a 120 0 acre farm having a net income of $771. 00. Certainly there is no room for increase in labour costs. If the government has any intention of increasing it, I would like to hear from the Minister as to what intentions they have of increasing the income of farms. We'll have agricultural Estimates next.

I do hope that the Minister -- if the Labour Minister has nothing to say on that that the Minister of Agriculture will certainly pro vide us with some good answers as to how he can increase the income of farmers. But this doesn't _necessarily only involve farmers. We have other industries such as clothing, the needle trades and so on, that these people are working on a very close margin too and they sure would like to know too if any increases are contemplated as to when and how soon they are going to take effect.

The sugar beet industry is -- for the information sake of the Honourable Member for Em erson, the sugar beet industry or the beet sugar industry is a very healthy one and we don't have to worry on that because that's one area where the government has not put their fingers in and which is still running at a good pace. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. FROESE: I think people should be free to involve in labour and do work.

It's healthy for them and I think if the Member for Emerson thinks that young people should start off and go on welfare -- this is the way they should start off, then I think he's on the wrong track. Cert ainly I would give encouragement for young people to start off early in life and work and produce an income. Certainly this produces much better citizens and they'll learn sooner about what taxes do to the individual in Manitoba and what this government is up to. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairm an, I rose on a point of order a few minutes ago because I had reason to believe that the Member for Morris was quoting from a document and I have a document in front of me which would seem to be pertinent to the views of the Member for Morris. With your permission I'll read it into the record. It appears on Legislative Assembl y letterhead and it's addressed to Messrs.

Harvard and Haslem of the CBC radio, and it reads: "D ear Sirs: I am not normally in the habit of writing to the news media and co mplaining about their activities mainly because most of them are free enterprisers and I do not have to contribute tax dollars to keep them in opera tion. They must listen to public opinion close enough to stay in business. The CBC suffers from no such restrictive inhibitions and in their wisdom the public is carefully fed periodic doses of Canadian culture. You have run the gambit of malice, communists and socialists.

The viewing screen has been hidden by the unwashed beards of the hippies, the activists and the dope addicts. You have recently indulged in an orgy of breast feeding in your interviews with call girls, prostitutes, topless dancers and nude dancers. Apparently the Manitoba

�--___ _ _ I April 7, 1972 723 (MR. WALDING cont'd) . Ce nsor Board are too busy to watch your show or they would have banned it instead of the "Stewardes se s" . You have had alcoholics and criminals, lesbians and homosexuals and I keep coming back for more because I am determined that I am going to learn about this Canadian culture. I keep reminding mysel f that this is all in the interests of broad-minded -- and you two guys are the most broad-minded people I know -- research and se lf-enlig htenment.

I draw the line, however, when you have a Liberal on your sh ow from Toronto yet who calls himself a Republican. It is no wonder that there is such a mess at Ottawa if he represents the thinking of the average Liberal MP. They obviously do not believe in a parliamentary syste m of government and are doing their level best to make sure that is does not work. As Joe Borowski would say, "H is performance was obscene" . And it's signed, Mr. Ch airman, W. Jorgenson. I' d like to table this document. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for . . . lVIR, cKENZIE : Mr.

Ch airman, I have a very few remarks to direct to the attention of the Minister. It' s a case that he likely can refresh his memory with that happened last Armistice Day in the Town of Roblin whereby the local auction mart was given a permit to work that day and it involved se veral of the local members of the legion who wanted to take

part in the Remembra'lce Day ceremony and of cours e their employment was such a nature that they were tied up on that particular occasion. I'm just wondering if the Minister has taken the matter under advisement or consideration and would hopefully take a look at that permit system on another year and see if he can' t maybe change the regulations so that the matter wouldn' t create the concern that it did on that particular occasion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HEN DERSON (Pe mbina): Mr .

Ch airman, since the Honourable Member from Rhineland brought up something about the minimum wage I think it sh ould be that I should say something at this time, because while it se ems rather critica l to oppose the minimum wage at this time, because while it se ems rather critical to oppose the minimum wage at a time when a person can get more on welfare or on unemployment than if he' s getting the mini mum wage, it se ems very difficult. However, at the present time if they advance the mini mum wage it has a way of hurting the farm people because all wages tend to go up if the mini mum wage goes up .

Businesses in Winnipeg may have a source of passing it on, but farm people have no place to pass it on to. They sell their produce on the world market -- this is what we're told we have to do. We're the only country in the world that doesn' t subsidize the farm ers and the growing of the grain. Any increase in the minimum wage reflects alSJ on the bus inessman in our community because they have to hire people in there, and to be competitive and to give good se rvice they have to pay the type of wages that the help can get in Winnipeg.

Then thes e people have to try and pass it on to the farmers who are sh ort of cash. Now this makes it very difficult for them . It's also very difficult for the farmers that are trying to hire help or maybe has a family and would like them to try and be home to help him. Maybe he really needs their help. In many cases , many of their wives are helping them out in the field and their boys are away working elsewhere. Now this gets the boys away to the city and Pm not saying that they'll be unemployed later.

Ch ances are some of the city people will be unemployed because I believe myself that the farm boys are very welcome in the city and make very good employees . So any increase at this time without something happening that' s going to help the farmer is going to be nothing but detrimental to the farmer and I want the :Minister of Labour to stand up and tell me how an increase in the minimum wage at this time is going to help the farmer. I really want him to tell me that and how it reflects on the people in the local towns in the coun try.

And don' t forget that agriculture is our largest industry and that half of the population of the province is depending on it so just don' t let the labour unions and these other people get the better of you and go crazy about it because labour unions today is getting too strong in this country. The y're getting too strong and they're working to the detriment of the country, and I'm referring to farmers which are trying to sell grain and we have strikes like we had at Vancouver . What a time we' ve had trying to get markets ; and then we have them and then our people out there won' t even load the boa ts .

And then we pay all these millions out in storage which is paid by the Canadian Wheat Board which in turn makes the farmer' s cheque less and less , as well as demurrage ch arges which go on. And I just can't see how you people over there who are talking about being so good for the little man and you know that the farm people

724 April 7, 1972 (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) . . . . . are having a hard time, I just want to know how you re late it that an increase in the minimum wage is going to help them. I think probably that's all that I'm going to say for now but I really want an answer in a direct way if you can without talking about great Manitobans and caring for everybody and all this stuff and if you just get down and say how it affects the farm fellows. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution . . . The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR, GIRARD: I wish to be very brief on this item. However, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to be as much to the point as I can. The Minister in introducing his Estimates gave us the number of strikes that have occurred in the Province of Manitoba and he said that there were 12 in '66 and 13 in '67 and 7 in '68 and 9 in '69 and 8 in '70 -' 71 And at that stage I asked him how many man-days, how many man-days do these strikes represent and the Minister of Labour answered: "I'm very sorry, I don't have that information, but I'd be very glad to get it for you.

" Now the insignificant Member from Emerson who had his head taken off last night, who has been called assinine and most other things, wishes to -- (Interjection) -- he wishes to in form the Minister that in his own report from his department on Page 25, you have that very information.

And the information, and I will read it to you for fea:r: that you might misinter pret it: "In 1966, we had 23, 000 man-days of stoppage ; in 196 7, we had 14, 000 man-days; in '6 8-'69 -- and he termed that the Conservative regime that was so black because there were so many strikes -a total of 7 I believe - there were 4, 000 man-days; in 1969 - '70 -- that's when the progressives took over -- 28, 000 man-days and we're really doing well with your governmen t, Sir. Last year we had a grand total of 115 , 000 man-days which is more , if you total, more last year than the previous four years put together.

Now, just one other item, Mr. Chairman, in this regard. I think that the Minister, if his judgment allows him, will acknowledge that part of these strikes and maybe the two major ones that have occurred in Manitoba in '71, are caused because we have a number of unions representing a variety of groups that work for the same firm. I refer, Mr. Chairman, to the building trade for instance -- maybe not the same firm but the same industry. I refer you also to the Flin Flon strike with the trade union at the Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting and I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister has looked at the possibility of somehow arriving at a solution to the problem where one trade union or one trade within the trades union, one trade only, can tie up the production turning hundreds, if not thousands of people out of work who are not related to that particular contract. I think it would be high time, Mr. Chairman, that we look at the possibility of reducing the number of strikes -- strikes that are caused in a somewhat artificial way.

They are tying up hundreds and thousands of people because of the multiplicity of different agreements that terminate or start at different times. I don't know whether the solution should be that we expect all contracts to begin and finish at the same time or is it that we expect all members that work at one installation to be covered by a master agreement of one union. I don't really know what the best solution would be but I suggest to the Minister that we ought to look at this area and come up with something better than what we've got. We are tired of the strikes that are being caused by minority groups. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I think, Mr. Chairman, I should briefly comment on some of the re marks that have been made. I'd like to have a further documentation from my honourable friend from Emerson. I'm sure that all engaged in industry would be appreciative if he would document the tirade that he just uttered. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, Page 25 -- if my honourable friend would use his ability, if he would use his intelligence, he would see that I did read these into the record last night.

I'm quite knowledgeable of the figures there, but if they're not com prehensible to my honourable friend instead of wasting the time of more intelligent people I would be glad to take my honourable friend into my office and really give him an education. The Honourable Member for Rhineland referred to minimum wages, indeed the Member for Pembina. I want to repeat what I said yesterday. I appreciate the Honourable Member for Rhineland has a great load on his shoulders in that he does try to keep up with everything that is going on and I compliment him for it.

Had he have been here at the time yesterday when references were made to the minimum wage, Mr. Chairman, he would have known that I said that the Minimum Wage Board is sitting at the present time considering recommendations to be rmde and that they have had some public hearings particularly down in the southern quarters

, --- --- --- -- --- --- 1 ! April 7, 1972 725 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) .. .. . of the province -- and of course my honourable friend would not expect me to prejudge what their report or to contemplate any possible action that would be taken in respect of the minimum wage. The Member for Pembina speaking of the plight of the farmer -- and I don't think that there has been a government in Manitoba previously that was more concerned with the plight of the farmer than is the present administration.

And I appreciate and realize that the agricultur al industry is in dire plight although lately it seems as though there has been some improvement in that situation. But my Honourable friend, the Member for Pembina, used as an illustr ation of part of the trouble with the farmer the fact that the grain handlers had a strike out at the west coast and down at Thunder Bay as well and as a result the grain wasn't transported.

I'm wondering whether the Honourable Member for Pembina would get after somebody else as well -- the person that controls the weatre r - because as a result of the weather conditions over this past few months and the blockage of the railroad line between here and the west coast the grain has not moved to the same degree as we would hope it. So if he is condemning one for their acti vity, may I respectfully suggest that maybe we should have a closed-in railway line all the way from here to the west coast in order that weather conditions would not prevent the handl ing of the grain.

My friend, the Member for Roblin, and I don't see him around right now, Mr. Chairman, referred to the Remembrance Day Act and the situation that prevailed at Roblin where on Remembrance Day because of an agricultural auction sale some of the members of the Legion were not able to take

part in the Remembrance Day services. There is an exclusion in the Minimum Wage Act, there is an exclusion in the Remembrance Day Act for agricultural workers. Now it could well be, it could well be that we should take into consideration whether or not the agricultural industry should be recognized on the same basis as all in respect of minimum wages and also in respect to the Remembrance Day provisions.

And I want to assure my honourable friend from Roblin and all others in this House that there is no member in my opinion -- and I'm not trying to preach for a call -- who is more cognizant of the contribution made by the men and the women of this country in at least two general wars and also the Korean war. Representations have been made to me as Minister of Labour to either abolish, to re peal the Remembrance Day Act, or to make it more loose than it is at the present time and thus far I've been able to convince those concerned that we should not do this. I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that generally answers the questions that I figure require answers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 84 (b)--passed. Resolution 84 in the amount of $214, 70 0 passed. Resolution 85 (

a) and (b)-- passed. Resolution 85 in the amount of $151, 100 passed. Resolution 86 (a) . . • The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE; Mr. Chairman, could we have an explanation from the Minister as to what kind or research is being carried on and what this money is going to be spent for? MR. PAULLEY: Yes, there's constant research into the operation of industr y in the province. We have a staff of five who work on the wage and salary survey so that industry and others have an indication of wage rates and conditions of work in the Province of Manitoba.

It's a report that is used by employers and other interested parties and one in particular, the Manitoba Government Employees' Association, in considering comparative wage rates outside industry with that in the civil service. And other research includes studies of comparative labour legislation, collective bargaining trends in other jurisdictions - international labour organization and the likes of that - the labour force trends as I mentioned, wage and salary trends.

A program in budget analysis within the department itself is a function, and the opera.,. tion of a research library for public use and research and secretarial support for the Manitoba Labour Management Review Commit tee commonly known as the Woods Committee. These are the broad aspects of this and I might say too, Mr. Chairman, that now that we are going to be charged with the responsibility under the building code, the research department will be in valuable assistance to the Minister and the officials in that field as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 86 (b) . . . The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR.

GIRARD: Mr. Chairman. In regards to the research, we feel that although there is some research being done in your department, Sir, that the research is nowhere near what should be done in order to be helpful to the people of Manitoba that are in the labour force and those that aspire to enter into the labour fo1·ce. We suggest that we could be providing our

726 April 7, 1972 (MR . GIRARD cont'd) . . . . . potential members of the labour force especially with a great deal more of information. We could be making decisions in your department with a great deal more knowledge. I know the Honourable Minister likes to accuse others rather than look at himself in this respect, but we feel very serio usly that we could do with a great deal more information in this kind of department. And we are so sympathetic with the Minister that we would be prepared to see his Estimates of this particular area almost doubled -- almost doubled, Mr.

Chairman, with the hope that this department could effectively bring about the kind or research that will give Manitobans the kind of information that they rightfully deserve and should be getting from a Department of Labour. We don't look at the total budget with an increase.

As a matter of fact our proposition is that the total budget remain relatively simi lar in total amount to the present budget, but I think that the allocations could much more effectively bring about an active and productive worthwhile labour department if the expendi tures were channelled in a way to concentrate on the manner of research and provide Manitobans the information that they rightfully deserve, then and only then will we find the Department of Labour making well-informed decisions and they're not occurring now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: · Resolution 86 (b)- -passed, Reso lution 86 in the amount of $117, 300 passed. Resolution 87 (a) . . . The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (B randon West): Mr. Chairman, I use this Resolution 87 for lack of any more appropriate point in the Estimates to bring to the attention of the Minister a labour problem which has been brought to my attention from the City of Brandon, from em ploy ees of the Brandon Hospital for Mental Diseases.

I think the Minister has some awareness of this problem but I was certainly impressed with the protestations of the Minister in his opening remarks as to the necessity for the en forcement of regulations in respect to labour laws in Manitoba and his great hopes for the new Labour code that would be coming in that would add strength to the enforcement capability of his department. Mr.

Chairman, this problem has been brought to my attention and to the administrators, by the Nurses Aide Society, Nurses Aide Association of the Brandon Hospital for Mental Diseases, who point out in their position that they feel they are aggrieved by the fact that another group of employees in the Hospital is receiving higher wages for doing the same kind of work. They refer to the nurses' attendants -- now, Mr.

Chairman, it' s commonly Jmov.-ni think by a group of people who are familiar with hospital work that nursing aides are traditionally of the female sex and nursing attendants are commonly male, so that this pattern -- while perhaps it is not intended by the department -- has been established and maintained over the past number of years. But I think it is accepted that nursing attendants do work with and do the same tasks as nursing aides and they start at a wage which is not attained by the nursing aides until they have been classified as Class 2 in their work. So we have a peculiar situation, Mr.

Chairman, where the Government of Manitoba has enacted legislation, it' s

Chapter E 130 of the Statutes,

an Act to Prevent Discrimination between the Sexes and the Payment of Wages for the Doing of Similar Work, and clause (3) (1) prohibits this kind of discrimination. Now, Mr. Chairman, I know that the Minister has been looking at this problem for some weeks if not months, but the Nurses Aides are naturally very concerned at the lack of progress that' s being indicated. They feel that as civil servants they should receive rather more rapid treatment of their difficulties and more rapid decisions being brought to bear on what they feel is a discriminatory situation between the sexes.

This government, this present government has been particularly active in this matter, has been producing legislation which tends to eliminate any kind of discrimination. I think the nursing aides at Brandon -- and this may affect other hospitals in Manitoba -- have been rather patient. They have been very anxious to give the Minister adequate time in which to inform them whether or not their positions are correct ; or if they are not, why he feels that they are not right in their assertion that they are doing the same job as the nursing attendants. So Mr.

Chairman, I think this is a situation in which the Department of Labour in dealing with it's own provincial employees should be a leader, and should be able at least to bring answers to the people concerned and to adjust the problem, if in fact they have a proper grie\·ance. I' d be very pleased to hear the l\Iinister' s comment. l\IR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, before the l\Iinister rises to address comments to the

April 7, 1972 IviR. FROESE con t'd ) . . . . . Honourable :Member for Brandon West, I wonder if the Minister could be a little more specific as to ju st what the functions are going to be of the Bureau and just the scope that this Bureau is going to have. ;\fR. CHAIRlVIAN: The Honourable 1'>'1inister of Labour. 72 7 l\IR. PAULLEY: Yes , I would be glad to, Mr.

Ch airman, answer the matter of the ques tions raised by the Member for Rhineland -- but I ap preciate very much the sentiments of the Honourable Member from Brandon Wes t in his curre nt concern for the people who are employed in the Brandon Hospital and this also applies may I say, l\lr. Chairman, to the em ployees in the Selkirk Hospital and also in the hospital at Portage la Prairie. Now, I trust my honourable friend will accept what I am going to say as being honest and sincere in an endeavour to ha\·e this matter resolved. It's not a question of black and white, l\lr. Chairman.

And he used the term in his opening remarks or used the word "traditional'' - and it is traditional, there is no question or doubt about it that those who are nurses aides have traditionally been female, nursing attendants have traditionally been males, and I have tried, I have tried to sort out the occ upational involvement of both groups .

Originally, the nursing attendant, and I guess the reason that traditionally it's an occupation of a male person is be cause it was construed they had to be a little more, have a little more strength to carry patients around, to lift them around, and I don•t know whether they were a different breed of women originally that could n't do th is, and the male, but this is som ething that has been going on for years. It's not something that has just happened overnight or happened since we became the government.

This matter was raised, or drawn to my attention, ju st sh ortly after being appoint ed as the Minister of Labour, and we agreed to have an independent person make a survey or at least to attempt to give us some information in respect of this matter and on the basis of that survey, it was indicated that all nurses aides were not doing precisely the same work, as indeed all of the nursing attendants were not doing the same work, and it was basic ally a name rather than a function, and I can appreciate very much the concern of the particu lar people employed.

During the last negotiations between the Manitoba Government Employees Association and the Administration, I believe the partial recognition was given by changing the wage groupings to give an additional boost increm ent to nurses aides in addition to the general application of a perc entage increase and trying to level this off. Now through the :\Ianagement Committee of the government, we have been trying to re solve this situation, and I'm hopeful, l\Ir. Chairman, that we are near to a solution.

Now there are two or three solutions, there are two or three soluti ons, one could be ju st simply to say that nurses aides are performing exactly the same work as nursing atten dants and therefore should qualify for the higher level of wages being paid, or salaries being paid to the nursing attendants . Now that' s one way of doing it. However, as I indicated all nurses aides are not performing functions that are attribut able to patient care.

It's a broad categ ory and as I understant it, it takes in some janitorial or care taking functions , as well as aid for the benefit of the patient, and we are trying to sort this out. It' s been a difficult job as I say, as the president of the joint council the associa tion se t up for consultation between the employees associa tion and the government, I have tried to resolve this satis factorily so I say one way is to simply recognize that there is no difference really between nursing attendants and nurses aides taking a whole group but that isn• t really the solution in my opinion.

The solu tion is tr ying to sort out similar functions so that they receive similar pay, and I agree with my honourable friend that if they are performing ess entially the same work, male and female, there should be no discrim ination between the two . Ther e's no question of doubt abouc that, but as he said it has been tradition. Another solution that we could do. or su ggest, would be that we should take a do zen or two nurses aides and just make them nursing attendants, because, l\lr.

Chairman, I find that there is no basic \iolation of the law itself because there is no classif ication which says male on one hand and female on the other, but it's only been done by tradition, and I imagine it was traditional with the Liberal regime prior to the Cons ervative regime, and I don't know how many have been hired since we became the government. I can assure my honourable friend. :\Ir.

Chairman, that this has been drawn to the attention of the hiring personnel to get away from that tradition and if any female, if there's a \·acancy in the so-called categ ory of nursing attendants until we have a new class ification, I want them to make su re that there is no carry ing on of the old traditional. So I think, Mr. Ch airman, that' s about all I can say at the

728 April 7, 1972 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) . . . . . present time to my honourable friend. As I say I'm hope ful, I'm hopeful that within a very short period of time, that we will be able to have this re solved in a practical acceptable manner. I appreciate very very much that the emp loyees con cerned are apprehensive of the time element that it's taken to consider this. I guess I could say, however, with justification that it's not a new problem and that en deavours were made in every wage negotiation over the past number of years to have the government of the day resolve this.

We at least are trying to make an effort to have the matter resolved and as I indicate, Mr . Chairman, I'm hopeful because I sincerely believe in the principle of equal pay for equal or similar work. It's hard when you have such a classifi cation that carry so many different functions within that one classification to apply the principles of equal pay for equal work. The Honourable Member for Rhineland raised a question as to the function of the Women's Bureau, and by jiminy Christmas, just talking of this I might be running afoul of the Human Rights Act, too, Mr .

Chtirman, in suggesting that there should be such a thing as a Women's Bureau. I guess maybe the only way in which I might be able to overcome this is to make the Director of a Women' s Bureau a male and then there can't be any discrimination at all. However, at the offset however, Mr . Chairman, may I say to the Honourable Member for Rhineland, the primary responsibilities will be to consult with individual groups, voluntary agencies, unions and employer organizations, and other government bodies on the special problems and concerns of women related to their participation in the work force.

To develop and provide a range of advisory services for women, whether they are already employed, in tending to re- enter the work force, or planning to seek employment for the first time. And one of the functions of the director of the Women's Bureau will be to promote the concept of equal opportunity and employment for women and to distribute and publicize informa tion relating to the rights women have under the provinces's labour legislation and to all other aspects of women' s employment.

And to carry out these functions it will be the respons ibility of the Bureau to engage in meeting seminar conferences regarding the problems, role and status of women in the Province of Manitoba. Mr . Chairman, honourable members will know that there was a committee set up at the federal level on the status of women, we have the report, and in due course I will be revealing to the Ass embly in our new proposed labour legislation the degree of acceptance of many of the major recommendations of the report of the Committee on the Status of Women. That, Mr.

Chairman, to my honourable friend the Member for Rhineland is the broad objective within the Women's Bureau in the Department of Labour. MR. CHAffiMAN: Res olution 87, (a)--passed; (b)-- passed. The Honourable Member for Brand on West. MR. l\lcGILL: I would like to thank the Minister for his explanations. He prefaced his remarks by expressing the hope that I would take what he was about to say as being honest and sincere. This suggests that there was some other way to take the Minister's remarks. I hadn't thought of any other way, but, Mr.

Chairman, I feel that what the Minister has said in his 15 minute explanation is really that he has a very difficult job and I think we're lucky to have a man of his ability to face those problems. He suggest, too, that this is not just a black and white situation and I didn't really for a minute suggest it was, Mr. Chairman; it' s a male and female situation. In the course of his remarks I took him to say that it hadn' t been established that nurses aides and nurses attendants were doing the same job and that it was inferred that this was not a correct assessment of the situation. Now if my

interpretation of your remarks, Sir, is correct then have the Nursing Aides Association in Brandon been informed of this decision?

Because while they realize that you have a problem, they nevertheless are expecting tln t the Department of Labour will find an answer to the problem and I think they are entitled to expect that they will get a reply to their letter and that they will be told that either they have a true case or that they are in error; that either they should be protected under the Statutes of l\lanitoba in a situation which they believe indicates discrimination between the sexes or that they are mistaken in their positions and that they should therefore withdraw their plea. Now, l\lr.

Chairman, I feel that the l\Iinister should now perhaps indicate what action is open to the Nursing Aide Association. Are they being asked by the department to merely wait ? Are they being asked to withdraw their plea or are they being asked to proceed in some other way in order to obtain an answer from the department ?

,-------- - -- ! April 7, 1972 MR. CH AIR:OIAN: The Honourable 1lin ister of Labour . 729 :.m. PAULLEY: I'd like to answer my honourable friend, Mr. Chairman.

I did indi cate to the honourable member that this has been a matter that has been before Joint Council which is an Associ ation set up, and I credit the former administration for setting it up and the late 1Iaitland Steinkopf was the princi pal originator of the plan, whereby once a month -- as a matter of fact today at 12:30 will be the meeting of Joint Council between the Employees Association and 1Ianagement as represented by three of the Ministers to consider these pro blems. This basica lly is a matter under the collective agreement between the Manitoba Government Employees Association and government.

It has been freely discussed at practi cally speaking every one of our Joint Cou ntil meetings . It' s been on the agenda and I have been explaining to them what is going on. They have been reasonable in accepting what VJe were tr)ing to do and hopeful, of course, that on behalf of their group of employees, the Nurses Aide Association, that the problem will soon be resolved. I think, l\Ir. Ch airman, that I have indicated this by letter to the people who forwarded to me a petition.

There was a petition forwarded to me, I just don't recall offhand the full number of people, that is in total number, but I did reply, if memory serves me correctly, and I'll be glad to attempt to verify this with my honourable friend in our correspondenc e. I am under the impression that I indicated that this was an ongoing consi deration and we are hopeful of a solution. I haven't ignored them, it 's not my policy; it's not the policy of the gO\·ernment to ignore people when they petition. But I would be glad to open my files to the scrutiny of the Honourable l\'Iember for Brandon West.

I want to assure him and assure all concerned that we do have a collective agreement in the Province of Manitoba which covers all employees with in certain categories including the nurses aides , and I think that it's only proper that the major thrust of the inves tigation should be through that organization. MR. CHAIR::\IAN: Resolution 87 (b) . The Honourable l\lember for Portage la Prairi e. 1IR. G. JOHNS TON: l\Ir. Chairman, I thank both the Member for Brandon and the 1Iinister of Labour for their review of this subject, that is the question of equal pay for sexes doing si milar work.

Now si milar to the l\lember for Brandon I also have a large institution in my constituency and I know for a fact through discuss ion and letters that while the agree ment has been signed there's a great deal of discontent amongst the nurses aides. They feel they are doing the same work exactly, the y're working alongside the male att endants, and while I sympathi ze with the Minister, I'm su re I can' t take his sympathy and his problems back to those people who have asked me to also bring this concern forward.

I would like to read a short letter into the record from one of the nurses aides in Portage la Prairi e. --(I nterjection )-- Yes , I will table it with the hope that because it is si gned that it won' t be of an embarrassment to the person who has written the letter. -- (Interje ction) -- Thank you. "D ear 1Ir. Johnston, I wonder if you could take the time to answer a few questions . I work at the :Olanitoba School and I would like to know why the attendants get six increments and the nurses aides only get fi\·e. Also the attendants receive twi ce as much money as us and only do half as much work.

" Now this may be not quite in accord with the facts but I'm sure that the grievanc e is genuine and the person speaks from the heart. "I thank you for your time. Could you please let me know as soon as possi ble the answers .' ' ::\Ir. Chairman, there's no way I can take the answers back to this lady, that I received from my dear friend the ::\Iinister of Labour . So perhaps he will perhaps speed up the process by which he's trying to resol\·e this problem. He also touched on the fact that there could be a \i olation of the Human Rights Act here.

For example, has the Minister sent out a memo to correct the long-sta nding practice which I unders tand is that an attendant 's job is only for males ? Has he sent out a memo saying that women are entitled to apply for that position as well as for nurses aides position ? Because this will conti nue the injustice if nothing is done. It the st atus quo stays the same that the admini strators and the directors of these institutions will only entertain male applications for attendants jobs this is clearly a \'iolation of the Human Rights Act. \\'hile I'm on my feeL :\lr. Chairman.

I would like to return again to a subject that I brought to the :\linis ter's attention in the past. and that is the question of equal pay for what are called cus todians of the institutio ns . I'm talking now about the Women' s Jail and the :\!en's Institution at Headingley and like instituti ons around the province .. Last year I beli e\·e

730 April 7, 1972 (1\IR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) . . . . . the Minister gave the undertaking that he was trying to bring about equal pay for the same work performed in these institutions by men and by women. Last year there was a difference of over 20 perc ent in the pay scale and I would ask the :Minister what has been done in that regard also. MR. CH AIRl\lAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. l\IR. PAULLEY: May I answer the first question of my honourable friend first, has there been a directive issued that the traditional practice should be changed? I might say, Mr.

Chairman, we have been in very close consultation with the Department of Health and that is the hiring agency basically for personnel in hospitals and they ha\·e been given in no uncertain terms that this -- (Interjection) -- no, I'm not passing the buck -- but they have been informed of what has been done and the involvement will be on the basis of the ability to perform the job regardless of whe ther the person happens to be male or female. So at least that has been done. I think that answers my honourable frien d's question as far as that is concerned.

The other matter raised by my honourable friend, he raised it last year and I gave an undertaking at that time that I would check into the same which I have done. I received a letter from a lady concerned; I do n't think it would be proper for me to disclose her actual occupation or classification at Portage la Prairie. I che cked into the matter thoroughly; I investigated into the Equal Pay Act and I find that while the designation of the classification is the same, the Equal Pay Act does not apply to classifications generally in every place , but in the same establishment.

The Equal Pay Act says that "where work is being performed by male and female substantially the same equal pay if it is in the same establishment''. I in formed the party who wrote to me acccrdingly, Mr. Ch airman, oh some month or tv.o ago; I have heard no further in respect of that. But the Act does provide that the equal pay for equal work is in the same establishment, and as my honourable friend points out there was a difference in the Wom en's Jail as against, I presume, Headingley. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Just a clarification from the Minister, Mr.

Ch airman. When he uses the term "the same establishment", is he talking about the same department or the same building, because it seems to me if he means they are in different buildings that' s hair split ting in my opinion. The establishment can be the department. Surely we can't have every correc tional institution under one roof in this province. MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Chairman, it has been leaglly interpreted in the Equal Pay Act. Basically it means working side by side in the same establishment being a building as such. MR. CH AIRMAN: (Resolution 87 was read and passed) . Resolution 88 (a) . . .

The Honourable l\Iember for Assiniboia. l\IR. PATRICK: Mr . Chairman, under National Building Code SllO, 000, I'm sure that the Minister recollects that on a couple of occasions. I believe, two di fferent years, I pro posed to the House a resolution that the government establish a National Building Code and I'm glad to see that it's in the EstimatP.s. But my question to the Minister is what is actually intended with the SllO , 000 and how will it be administered?

Will he have inspectors in the Province of Manitoba in di fferent areas or just in the Ci ty of "'innipeg, and to what extent the inspection will be carried out. I agree that we need some clarification of this item in the Estimates. I know that there has been a multiplicity of building bylaws throughout the whole province; every munici pality had its own and what we'r e talking about is very minimum stan dards and in many areas, many communities and towns will be able to have variations to the National Building Code because changes can be made.

I know that in Northern Manitoba naturally the same building code cannot apply as to parts of the cities or southern l\lanitoba. l\ly other point is that I hope that National Building Code, or the inspectors will also equally apply themselves to the fact that some provisions must be made that handicapped people will have the same opportunity, will not be denied an opportunity to say attend churches or participate in social and recreational activities in certain public places because they are in a wheelchair. I think this is very important.

Handicapped people want to be independent as anyone else and in this province, I think that we are much further behind because the bylaw that was finally accepted at much urging and pushing by the Canadian Paraphlegic Association and other societies for crippled children and adults, finally a year ago the Winnipeg ::\letropolitan Corporation has accepted a bylaw to ha\·e -- (Interjection) -- yes they did.

April 7, 197 2 731 (1\IR. PATRIC K cont'd) . . . . . supplement No . 5 has been passed which does not apply to all buildings but which is very minimum. And what I am saying to the government, under the federal legislation you must make provision for the handicapped people. I do not understand anywhere that there is the same requirement of the Prov incial Government. I know that they 'l l make provisions in sch ools and such but , -- (Interjec tion) -- yes th at's true, but what about such institutions as say hospitals and.

I think we make it on a very limited basis -- sch ools and perhaps some other areas -- but not to the extent that we sh ould . I know that it is mandatory in buildings constructed by the Federal Government I see no reason why it shouldn' t be mandatory in public buildings that are constructed by the Provincial Government.

And as well , I think that there should be a requirement on certain large buildings like the \Yinnipeg Inn or the Northstar Inn where there are drug stores in there, where ther e's small clinics in there, so there should be facilities made for people to be able to have access to these facilities .

I know even in the Ce ntennial Concert Hall, even the Richardson Ce ntre that there had to be communication with the organizations I' m talking about and the architects before provisions were made, but when you go to the Planetarium there are no provisions and it' s a public build ing, public money was spent, and at the present time wh en you have one out of se ven people in the provinc e or in this country that have some form of handicap, I think it' s most unf ortunate that we still spend a tremendous amount of money but do not make provisions for these people.

So I would hope that the 1\linister would give us some idea what and how this department or this part of the department will work, do the inspections and to what extent they'll involve themselves as far as the architectural barriers are concerned in respect to the handicapped people. 1\lR. CHAIR::--1A N: It' s now 12:30 and I'm leaving the Chair . Before I lea\•e the Ch air might I remind the committee that. the department under cons ideration that we have spent three hours and five minutes .

This department in conjunction with the Department of Civil Service, there' s a total of four hours and thirty minutes to be spent. At approximately 4 o' clock this afternoon the time will have expired. I' m leaving the Ch air to return at 2: 30.

April 7, 1972 APPENDICES APPENDIX A - FINANCIAL STATISTICS APPENDIX B - ECONOMIC STATISTICS APPENDIX C - DETAILS OF TOBACCO TAX CHANGES AND EDUCATION PROPERTY TAX CREDIT PLAN APPENDIX D - RECENT MANITOBA STATEMENTS TO FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL MINISTERIAL CONFERENCES 733

734 April 7, 1972 APPENDIX A - FI NANCIAL STATISTICS EXPENDITURE ESTIMATES - FI SCAL 1971 and 1972 Fis cal 1971 Fis cal 1972 (Millions of Dolla rs) 1. Educ ation $181.1( 35 . 1%) $197. 0( 34 . 2%) (

a) Education $116 ,071 ,3 00 $129 ,4 79 ,0 00 (

b) Colleges and Universities Affairs 64.98 8.200 67.566. 700 $181 , 059 ,5 00 $19 7, 045 , 700 2. Health and Socia l Development 164 .9 (3 1.9 %) 191. 3( 33. 2%) 3. Development of Resources (incl uding pollution control) 52. 7 (10 .2 %) 57 . 4(1 0 .0 %) (

a) Agriculture $ 12, 607 ,0 00 $ 16 , 262 , 900 (

b) Industry and Commerce 5,3 20 ,4 00 5, 054 ,5 00 (

c) Mines , Resources and Environmental Management 27 ,0 66 ,0 00 26 ,1 73 ,4 00 (

d) Tourism , Recreation and Cultural Affairs 7, 525 , 700 9, 084,6 00 (

e) Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures 200 ,0 00 100 ,0 00 (

f) Special ARDA Agreement 7oo.o oo $ 52,71 9,1 00 $ 57 ,3 75 ,4 00 4. Public Services (i ncluding protect ion of people) 14.5 (2 .8 %) 18 .4( 3.2 %) (

a) Commissio ner of Northern Affairs $ 1, 896, 700 $ 2,4 11 ,0 00 (

b) Consumer , Corporate and Internal Services 1,1 73,700 1,7 63 ,3 00 (

c) Attorney-General 9,5 67 ,4 00 11 ,6 82 ,1 00 (

d) Co-operative Development 361 , 800 586 , 900 (

e) Labour 115441300 11955 1000 $ 14 ,5 43 ,9 00 $ 18 ,3 98 ,3 00 5. Highways 52 .0 (1 0. 1%) 57. 5( 10 . 0%) 6. Urban and Rural Aid (

a) Municipal Affairs $ 21,6 84, 800 $ 19 ,248,9 00 24 .5( 4.7 %) 21 . 0 (3 .6 %) (

b) Urban Affairs 217 83,6 00 1, 75 1, 800 $ 24 ,468 ,400 $ 21 ,000 ,700 7. General Government 17 .5( 3.4 %) 23 .1 (4.0 %) (

a) Legislation $ 1,4 97,5 00 $ 1, 91 0 ,400 (

b) Executive Council 2,5 16 ,0 00 2, 91 7,0 00 (

c) Finance (excluding Public Debt) 3,2 93,4 00 3,6 85 ,700 (

d) Pub lie Works 7,8 78,5 00 10 ,6 05 ,3 00 (

e) Civil Service 2, 282,6 00 4, 030,0 00 $ 17,4 68 ,000 $ 23 ,148 ,400 B. Public Deb t 9. 4�1. 8%2 10 .1 �1 . 8%2 $5 16 .6 (1 00 . 0%) $575 . 8(1 00 .0 %

April 7,1972 REVENUE ESTIMATES - FI SCAL 1971 and 19 72 1. Income Taxes , Share of Federal Estate Tax and Provincial Succession Duty and Gif t (

a) Individual Income Tax $121 ,543 ,000 (

b) Corpor ation Income Tax 30 ,579 ,000 (

c) Estate Tax 4, 300 ,000 (

d) Provincial Success ion Duty and Gif t Tax $156 ,422 ,000 ·2 . National Equali zation 3. Other Taxes , Fees , etc . (

a) Legis lati on $ 19 5, 000 (

b) Att orney-Ge neral (l es s Liquor Commiss ion) 4, 076 ,000 (

c) Colleges and Univers iti es Affairs 786 ,500 (

d) Consumer, Corporate and Inte rnal Se rvices 678 ,600 (

e) Co-operative Deve lopment 65 ,000 (

f) Education 12 1,0 00 (

g) Finance (l ess a,b (ll) ,b (l2 ) , Tax $141 ,5 15 ,90 0 38 ,583 ,600 4,000 ,000 $184 ,099 ,500 $ 224 ,000 4, 510,0 00 855 ,700 755 ,900 68 ,000 75,7 00 735 Fiscal 19 71 Fiscal 1972 (Mill ions of Doll ars) $156 .4 (3 0.3 %) 49 .3( 9.5 %) 140.9( 27. 2%) $18 4.1 (3 2.1 %) 58. 5( 10. 2%) 166.6( 29.1 %) b( l3) ,b (l4) ,b (lS) ,d and e) 134 ,!14 ,400 (1) (

h) Health and Soc ial 159 ,204 ,300

(1) Deve lopment (

i) Highways (l ess b, c, and d) (

j) Labour (

k) Municipal Aff airs

(1) Pub lic Works 301 ,000 1, 100 340 ,000 21,4 00 70,000 $1 40 ,870,0 00 4. Natural Resources (

a) Agriculture $ 103 ,300 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. (

b) Finance (b ( ll) ,b (l 2) , b( l3) , and b( l5 )) (

c) Mines , Resources and Environmental Management (

d) Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs Government Enterprises (Liquor Motor Vehicle Fees Shared- Gost Receipts 5, 265 ,000 5, 878 ,230 11071 1300 $ 12 ,317 ,830 Commiss ion) Mis cella neous Receipts for Sundry Services Transfer of Revenue Account Surplus Note (1) - Inc ludes Revenue Tax 370,0 00 1, 000 330 ,000 21,6 00 198 ,500 $166 ,614 ,700 $ 118 ,300 3, 475 ,001 5,7 99 ,100 111 07 1100 $ 10 ,499 ,501 12 .3 (2.4 %) 31 .1 (6 .0 %) 15 .8 (3.1 %) 88. 5(1 7.1 %) 3.5( 0.7 %) 19 .3(3. 7%) $5 17.1 (1 00 .0 %) 10 . 5(1. 8%) 36 .1 (6. 3%) 16 .4 (2.9 %) 91.2 (15. 9%) 4.9 (0. 9%) 4.8( 0.8 %) $57 3.1 (1 00 . 0%)

736 ESTIMATED EXPENDITURES - FISC AL 1972 (Revenue Division) EDUCATION 34 .2 % ( o=o� oF RESOURCES 10 .0 % URBAN AND GOVERNMENT RURAL AID 4.0 % 3.6 % 1.8 % April 7, 19 72 (Millions of Dollars) Educat ion •••..••..•.• •• •••••••• •••••••.•.•••••.•.•••••.•.••• $1 97.0 Health and Social Development .. .. . . ... . . . .... . .. ... . .... .. .. 19 1.3 Develop ment of Resource s ••••••••• ••.• •••••••.••••••• ••••. •.• 57 .4 Pub lic Services • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • • . • • . • • • • • • • • • . . • • • 18. 4 Hi ghways • • • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • . . • . • . • • . • . • . 57 .5 Urban and Rural Aid . . .. .. .. .. .. .. • . .. .. .. .. .. • • . . .. .. .. .. .. . 21. 0 General Government . • . . • • • • • • • • • • • . • • . • • . . . • • . . • • • . • • • • . . . . . . 23 .1 Pub lic Debt 10 .1 TOTAL $5 75 .8

April 7, 1972 ESTIMATED REVENUES - FISCAL 1972 (Revenue Division) PRO\'I�CIAL Sl'CCESS ION DCTY �'D GIFT TAX 32 . t;; 737 OTHER TAXES , FEES , ETC . 29 .1 % TURAL RESOUR CES 1. 8% Income Taxes and OTOR VEHICLE FEES 2.9 % TRANSFER OF REVENUE ACCO UNT SURPLUS 0.8 % (Mi lli ons of Dollars) Provincial Succession Duty and Gift Tax •....•..•...•...•.•. $18 4.1 Nat ional Equalizat ion •.•..•. •••••.•••••••.• • , • • • . . . . . . • . . . . • 58 .5 Other Taxes , Fees , etc . •.. ....• ••••.. ••..•...... , ....•...... 166. 6 Natural Resources . • . . • . . . . . . . • . • . . . . . • . • . • . • . . . . . . . . • • . . . . • . 10 .5 Government Enterprises (Liquor Commiss ion) .. •... •.•..... •.•. 36 .1 Motor Vehicle Fees . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 .4 Shar ed-Cos t Receipts . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . 91. 2 Miscella neous Receipts for Sundry Services ..•... ....•.....•. 4.9 Transfer of Revenue Account Surplus 4.8 TOTAL S573 .1

738 ESTI MATED EXPENDITURES - FI SCAL 19 71 (R evenue Division) EDCCAT IO:\ 35 .1 % \ DETELOP'1BT OF RE SOL'RCES .1 0.2 % PUBLIC SERVICE 2.8 % L'RBAX AXD RURAL AID 4. 7% \ HEALTH A,;n � SOCI AL DEVELOPME�"T l 31 .9 % r.OVER�:MENT 3.4 % J I April 7, 1972 (Milli ons of Dollars) Education ••••••••••••••• •••••• .••••.•.• .•••••••••.•••••••••• $18 1.1 Health and Social Development . ... . . .. ........ . ........ ... .. . 164.9 Development of Resources ••••••.••• •...•.•.•.. ••••••..••••••• 52 .7 Public Se rvices • • • • • • . • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • • • • • 14 . 5 Highways • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • . • • • • • • • • . • . • . • • • • • • . . • • • . • • • • • • 52. 0 Urban and Rural Aid . • • . • • . • • • • • . • • • . • • • • . . • . • • • . • . • . • • • . • . • . 24 .5 General Government . • • • . . . • . • . . . . • • • • • . . . . • . • . . . • . . . • . . . . . . . . 17 . 5 Pub lic Deb t 9.4 TOTAL 55 16 .6

April i, 19i 2 EST D!ATED REVEN UES - FI SCAL 1971 (Revenue Divis ion ) I�COXE TAXES AXD SHARE OF FED ERAL EST ATE L"LX 30. 37; 739 OTHER TAXE S, FE ES, ETC . 27 .2 % NAWRAL RESO URCES 2.4 % TRANSFER OF REVTh"'UE ACCO UNT SURPLUS 3. 7% MOTOR VEHICLE FEES 3.1 % (Millions of Dollars) Income Taxes and Share of Federal Es tate Tax ... .....• ... ••.• $15 6.4 Nat ional Equali zat ion . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .. . .. . . . . • . .. .. . . . .. .. . . . 49 .3 Other Taxes , Fe es , etc . .. ........... .................... .... 140 .9 Natural Resources . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . 12 .3 Government Ente rprises (Liquor Commission } . . . .......... ..... 31 .1 Motor Vehicle Fees . . .. .. . .. .. .. .. .. . .. .. .. .. .. . .. .. . . .. .. .. . 15 .8 Shared Cost Receipts .. . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . .. .. .. .. 88 .5 Mis cel laneous Rece ipts for Sundry Se rvices . . . . .. ..... ....... 3. 5 Transfe r of That Port ion of Ex cess of 1970 -71 Revenue Over Expend it ures .........•.... .... ...•............ 19 .3 TOTAL $51 7.1

740 CAPITAL REQVI�E��S - 19 72/73 The Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board The Manitoba Telephone Syste m The Manitoba Water Supply Board

Schedule "A" The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation The Manitoba Sc hool Capital Financing Authority The Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation The Manitoba Development Corporation The Community Economic Development Fund (

a) for Direct Loans (

b) for Bank Guarantees The Leaf Rapids Corporation Sc hedule "B" Federal-Provincial Employment Loans Program City of Winnipeg Rural Municipality of Ritchot Rural Municipality of Spring field The Pas Special Area Agreement Brandon Special Agreement Agricultural Service Centres Agreement Community Colleges Frontier School Division Universities Frontier and Resource Roads Churchill Townsite Redevelopment

Schedule "ci' Parks Furniture Plant - FRED Manpower Grants re Municipal Sewer and Water Systems Winter Works and Emergency Programs General Purposes $ 1,0 00 ,0 00 1, 000 ,000 $ 2, 050 ,0 00 196, 600 175 ,0 00 $ 333 , 200 4,1 73 ,3 00 13, 738,000 April7,1972 $1 50 ,0 00 ,0 00 19 ,5 00 ,0 00 2, 376 ,0 00 8,0 00 ,0 00 10 ,0 00 , 000 55 ,0 00 , 000 40 ,5 00 ,0 00 2,0 00,0 00 5,0 00, 000 $29213 76 ,000 $ 2,4 21, 600 2, 000 , 000 500 , 000 3, 800,000 $ 8, 721, 600 $ 18, 244 ,5 00 10 ,000 , 000 11,8 50 ,0 00 150 ,00 0 1,1 24,0 00 6,0 00 ,0 00 4510001000 $ 92.3 68,5 00 $3 93,466 , lOO

April 7, 1972 741 SC,I:\1: \RIZED STATE:\IE:\1 OF DIRECT P'LBLIC DEBT AS OF MARCH 31, 1971 Funded Debt : Bonds and Debentures: Payable in Canadian Doll ars ... ....... . Payable in 'Lni ted States Dollars ..... ... ... ... ... ..... . Payable in European Lnit s of Acco unt (Canad ian Dollar \"alue) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .. . Treastiry Bills - payable in Canadian Dollars . . ... ..... . ... . Cniundcd Debt: Accrued Interest and Other Charges .... ... ... ...... ... ... . . Accou r. ts Payable . . . . . .. ......... . .. ... ... .. .

Special Funds . ... . . . . .. . . . .. .. .. ...... . .. . . . . . . .. . Total Direct Public Debt ..... ... ..... ... ... .. . The Pro vi r;ce con,.iders the following assets to be proper deductions in arriving at :\"et Direct Public Debt: Sinking Fur.ds - Cash and Inv estments ... ... ... ... ... .... . S[X'c!al Reserve ior Retirement of Debt ............ ... . Ca,h on ha:1d and in Banks - net ..... ........... . Tc�:;;Elrary and Other Investments ..... .. .. .. ... ... ... .... . Adva:1ccs to '!anit oba Hydr o. .. $19 8,55 4,431 Less Premium s on l'.S.

Fun ds . .. ...... 10.040,431 Less Sinking Funds incl uded above ........ . Adva>1ces to '!anit oba Telephones .... .... . Less Sinking Funds included above .... . $188,514 .000 11 ,954.661 55,20 0,000 8. 229,425 Advances to '!anit oba Development Corporation ... ........ . (See :\"ote Below) Advances to '!anit oba Agricultural Credit Corporation .. .... . Advances to 'lunicipalities. . . . . . . ... . ........... . . . Advances made from Revenue Division . . . .... . .. .

Other - :\"et. ... . . . . . . ... . ... . . :\"et Direct Public Debt ... . ... . �et Dir ect Public Debt Per Capita .. ......... . $290 ,350,7 11 175 ,000,000 27 ,936,938 14,941,414 1, 61 3,564 47,42 1. 432 70,420, 12 3 21 ,634,322 14,013,338 52,691, 800 17 6,559,339 46,9 70,575 11 8,487, 500 41, 495,075 13,1 19,792 3,7 20,000 11 ,3 95,556 S-493,287,6 49 40,266,959 533, 554,608 63,976,410 $597 ,5 31, 018 570,507,420 s 27,023,598 s 27.40 X ore: The Financial statement of �fanitoba Development Corporation sho .... ·s a deficit on ope rations of $8.983,970 as at �larch 31. 1971.

The a;Jditor's report ind icate-s that the valnati::m of assets of the Co�poration at this date does not include any pro vision for principal losses wh;ch mi�;h: ari� from loans relating to The Pas complex.. 6

742 iJI?.ECT FU:i1

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	920d1105d2989fc2a90ce243b616514174621662

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