PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 83 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 28, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 28, 1970 Tape /JlOOl Page 1 The House met at 10:30 A.N. HR. SPEAKER: Order! Presenting Petitions: HON. P. J. LEWIS (Minister without Portfolio): Hr. Speaker, I have been asked by a group cf citizens who are not permanent residents in the district of Harbour Main, to ·present, supported by my hon. colleague, a petition for the declaration of a road as a public road, which presently serves the area occupied by the people in the vicinity of Collier's Ridge, Roache's Line. I am not sure of the status of this, but I presume it is in order. MR.

SPEAKER: I am afraid that the hon. gentleman who is presenting the petitidn - I do not know how many can hear. I know 1 cannat hear. HR. LEWIS: Well I "'am sorry about that Mr. Speaker. I: am saying that who occupy summer homes on a roadway in the vicinity of Collier's Ridge. And they are asking that the roadway in question be declared a public way, with a view to bei·ng upgraded and maintained. As I say . 'fr. Speaker, I am not certain of the status of this matter, but I would ask that it be tabled, and referred to· the approoriate authorities for such attention as it may be entitled to "receive. MR.

SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition he received and referred to the departme~t to which it relates. MR. JOHN HAHO~: EY: ~lr. Speaker. I rise to support the petition ' presented by my hon. colleague. I think that in the area in question, there are some twenty-five summer homes occupied by mainly residents .of St. John's. I think the road in question was originally an old farTTl road, ~·hich is now used for·access to the pon~side area where these homes have heen ere1!ted. The road is in bad condition, but mainly I think what is required is to have the road, if it could be declared a pub lie rc-ad.

In the main what is required is to have the ro~d grarl~d. I thin k the ro~.l 5179

--------------- May 28, 1970 Tape !!lQ~~ Pa~e 2 is wide enough but is rutted, and I think if it were p,raded once or ~ice a year, this would suffice for the purpose of access to and from these homes. I support the petition. BON. E. N. DAWE (Minister of l-1unicipal Affairs): I would like to dse and support this ·petition. It was presented to me earlier, and I checked with our own highways department at Bay Roberts, and they advised me it was not under their jurisdiction.

It was under the jurisdiction of Highways De~ot at Harbour Main I think, or w-f thin the district of Harhour ~1ain, and that is why I passed the petition over to rily colleague ~~r. Lewis. But I did have a delegation call on me from these cabin owners, and they would be moet appreciative if this road could be tended to as they have requested. MR. SPEAKER: Those in favour of the ~otion, please say ''aye," contrary "nay," carried. Answers to Questions: RON. W. R. CAL~~ (Minister of Agriculture and Resources): Mr.

Speaker, before you proceed to Orders of the Day, I =an give a partial answer to Question (535) on today's Order Paper, standing in the name of the hon. member for Gander, concerning my ~ravel last Fall. The reason for my visit to Rome November 6 to 16, was to attend the fifteenth session of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. And the puroose of ~oing . there was to join the Can~di.an delegation in respect to whichofor_ the fir~t time ~he Federal Minister of Agriculture invited his colleagues, the Provincial Ministers, to be part of the official Canadian dele~ation.

The second. reason was to make contact with and hold discussions with officials of r.A.O. both in the Forestry and Agriculture Sections. To London . on November 17 to 20, and this was·on the way hack. For the pu~ose to attending the signing of agreements in connection with Nelville Linerboard pro.1ect, specifically in respect to the Forest

section of that development. And to Dublin on November 21 to 23, to follow up earlier meetin~s in Rome with officials of the Government of Erie, concerning some very excitin~ forestation ~rograms that '1ave been proceeding· in Ireland which aopear to he the best 5180

May 21, 1970, Tape #1011 Pa~e 3 possible or at least the most typical programs that could be undertaken here on our own peat lands. On our peat l~nds we spent several million dollars developing them, and it appears that in large measure the beat result we could get from that expenditure would be to convert them to afforestation.

So 1 spent two days there with the Irish officials and as a result of that, I might tell the House a party will leave here early next month made up of officials of the Federal Forest Service, the Provincial Resources . branch, and . the various-pulp and paper interests in the Province, to go and spend some time looking at the same developments in Ireland with expert eyes. We are talking in termS of forestry experts, because we think that what the Irish have done in developing commercial forest and bog lands is the best example perhaps we could follow.

But the federal minister has agreed to send representatives as have the pulp and paper interests in the Province, and we of course, and these people will be leaving early next month as I have said. And that will be a direct result of the talks held both in Rome and in Dublin. As to the total cost of the trip, I will get the information and supply it later. HON. STEPHEN NEARY (Minister of Welfare): Mr. Speaker, Question No. (530) on today's Order Paper, in the name of the hon. member for St.

John's Center, directed to the }anister of Economic Development, concerning the building on Bell Island formerly known as the DOSCO Guest House. The bon. Minister of Economic Development has asked me to answer the question, because I am very familiar with the property in question. The answer to Part

(1) Mr. Speaker; Has the building formerly owned by DOSCO and known as the Guest House been sold? If so, who was the purchaser? The answer is "'yes,that it vas sold by public tender. The highest tender were Messrs. Benson and Pendergrast. But because Mr. Pendergrast could not meet his part of the financial obligation, I think it was to be a joint purchase. Then it was sold to Mr. Benson. If so- what was the price received? If my memory serves correctly Sir, it was sold for $8,~0. I can check-that figure. 5181

•·' 'u c: . . -':!' • May 28, 1970 Tape 01011 Page 4 It may be a hundred dollars one way or the other. Did the purchaser of the buildin~ that has been sold - I might say Hr. Speaker, this question . is really history. It is ancient. Did the purchaser of the buildin~ that did was sold quire a title to the land? He,acqt,ire a title to the land 'lr. Speaker. Was it required as a commission to this sale if made that the building be removed? Mr. Speaker, I might point out here that one of the conditions of sale was that the building would have to be used on Bell Island as a motel.

But Your Honour will recall that in December . the Immaculate Conception Convent School was destr~yed by fire, and there was complete panic on the Island followin~ this fire. And at the insistence of the parish priest and the R.C. School Board, the building was turned over and the land was turned over to the R.C. School Board for the same cost that Mr. Benson paid for it, plus out-of-pocket expenses. In othe .r _ words Hr. Speaker, the School Board agreed to give him his initial capital outlay, plus out-of-pocket expenses. And ~1r. Benson is to be commended for doing it.

I might say that in conjunction with that Mr. Speaker, that the DOSCO main o·ffice which was on adjoining property was also demolished at the request, on the insistence of the. parish priest and the school board, :~· because they ' w)nted to free up this piece of land which is ideally situated for a new school, by removing the two buildings, and I might say Mr. Speaker, that the Government rescinded the_stipulation that the building had to remain on Bell Island and be used as a motel.

The Government rescinded that stipulation in the agreement at a special meeting of Cabinet as a matter of fact, with the insistence of the parish priest and the School board. And the School Board Sir, and the parish were offered both buildings, but they said, no, they did not want the buildinRs. it would cost them too much to demolish them. So they asked the Government to demolish the main office, and they asked Mr. Benson, because I attended the meetin~s in the chairman's office down on Duckworth Street. They asked Hr. Benson to demolish the Guest House. So both buildings have been demolished.

The land is now bein~ 51B2

May 28, 1970 Tape · lllOll Page 5 freed up for a school if the school board decides to go on ahead and build a school. MR. A. J. MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): A supplementary ~t.ioa Mr. Speaker. Was not that building fully equipped with furniture, linen so on and so forth at the time of purchase? And the price paid by the Roman Catholic School Board $10,000? Just for the land alone? HR. NEARY: No Mr. Speaker, the pric~ paid to Mr. · Benson probably came to $10,000, roughly $10,000. That was $8,300 capital outlay, plus his out-of-pocket expenses, because I think his lawyer cost him about $900.

And the hon. member is quite right, that there was furniture, linens and so forth in the Guest House. But remember what I said earlier Hr. Speaker, that the R.C. School Board was offered the building as is, where is. plus· the property. And they said they did not want it. They told Hr. Benson the building and the things that were in 1 t were his. ~!r. Benson was only trying to be helpful, and he offered everything to the School Hoard·, but they refused to take it. He offered as a gift. All he wanted was his $8,300 back plus his ~ut-of-pocket expenses. ·That is all he wanted. And I might sa~ Mr.

Speak~r, _ that he ~id not ·approach the School Board or . ~ • . .. , - ~ the par:lsh. It was the. , .ot"~\er way . a~ound. They came to him, because he was all ready to operate that building as a motel, and I would be very happy to see it operate as a motel Mr. Speaker. But to facilitate the School Board and the parish priest this arrangement was· made. ' ..... ~ ·- -..:: MR. J. C. CRO~miE: A supplementary a.uestion just to clarify the point. The building itself now is where - is it owned by the R.C. School Board or is it owned by Mr. Benson? Where is the building now? MR. NEARY: Both buildings Mr.

Speaker, at the insistence of the parish priest and the School Board have · been demolished. MR. CROSBIE: They are both demolished·• But Mr. Benson kept the contents? MR. NEARY: The School Board told him to take the building and the contents and do what he liked with· them. MR. JOlUf NOLA~ (Minister of Supply): Mr. Speaker, question (534) on 5183

'May 28, 1970 Tape 111011 Page 6 today's Order Paper in the name of the hon. member for Gander. This question was answered - both questions were answered previously in this House and alsc in the public pre~s. It was answered in this House. HON. L. R. CURTIS (~inister of Justice): Ouestion (531) on today's Order Paper requested by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. The Public Utilities Commission does not set the fares for the Bell Island ferry. And neither does it set the trip schedule. I expect the responsibility is at the Department of Transport, Ottawa. It is not done by the Public Utilities Commission.

And there is no franchise agreement with the Newfoundland Transportation Company J.imited that we have any knowledge. The Commission does not set the fares or the schedule. '1-fR. HURPHY: Who does? MR. SMALLWOOD: Not this Government anyway. MR. CURTIS: Not this r~vernment. The Federal agency does it. MR.. MuRPHY: Maritime? MR. SMALLWOOD: Some Federal agency. MR. MURPHY: I just want to know, that is all. Is it too much trouble to give some information? MR. CURTIS: All I can say·Mr. Speaker, is that we do not •. I do not know vho does. MR. H.

COLLINS: The Government ca:n be quite capable of enlarging on questions for wbicb they have no responsibility but wnen it comes to sometb1Dg where the Governmeitt have 'respo-nsibility, we do not get an answer at all. MR. CURTIS: No.

(533) No lease has been issued. HR. HURPHY: Mr. Speaker, before we ~o into Orders of the Day, unfort9D4tely the Hinister of Municipal Affairs has left his seat, hut I wanted to direct a question in regard to what seems to be the absolute disregard to the ' rights and safety of people on the Blackhead Road, and I want to know just what action the Department of Nunicipal Affairs are taking on this. It has become very, very serious. And I wonder if representations were made. I received several phone calls yesterday, and what action is being taken

May 28, 1970 Tape 11011 Page 7 to safeguard the citizens on Blackhead Road. We had a blasting incident again yesterday where several houses were uamaged. Ar~ we treating these people as human beings? Or what is the story going tD-be on it? Is chere anybody in the House who can give us any information on what is happening up there? MR. NOLAN: If I may,Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Municipal Affairs is not present.

I was in touch with some people who are certainly involved, not just th~ residents of Blackhead Road, but others on the Metro Board and so on, and also with the contractors involved, and our engineers looking after the project. And it is difficult to give a short answer, and to be simply flip about the thing. Yet it is not as simple as the bon. Leader of the Opposition would·have the House believe. MR. HURPHY: No but it is a serious matter. ~· 5185

MR. HOLAN: No-one disputes this. Are you suggesting or is the hon. member suggesting that the only one who agrees that the matter is serious would be• the bon. Leader of the Opposition'l MR. MURP~ There are several things that have happened, let us face facts. All down through the-whole process, no regard for the convenience of people up there. I know another member who is worried just as much as I am. MR. NOLAN: This is not at all true, Mr. Speaker. The fact is tha~ there is a very and I am sure the hon. member for St.

John's West will agree because he was Minister of Municipal Affairs at one time, the probl~ oo BlacL~ead Road are, for example in the ca~e of blasting, not as simple as it would seem. You do have rock formations there that are not something you can simply document and say,"This is the way it is going to go," as people far more experienced than I will testify. But what has happened is we have asked some people te look into this latest incident.

I am not suggesting that it was not negligence involved as I was not there when the blasting took place, I am not an engineer nor am I a d~iting expert but the fact is that there may indeed have been some negligence. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am the dynamiting expert. MR. NOLAN: You are the dynamiting expert. The bon. the Prelrler suggests that he is the dynamiting expert. MR. MURPHY: Yes, it 1a c:ertainl.y typical of some Qf the things that have been happening in the last twenty years whether it is dynamite or what it is. MR. NOLAN: Well one of the major problems, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Government in the initial instance had two choices to make as far as ~lac:khead Road was concerned. One vas to develop an entirely new area which they could have done and far cheaper I would suggest than developing the Blackhead Road and attempting.to carry out an urban renewal scheme there. My bon. friend, the member for St. John's West, was Minister of Municipal Affairs the one who vas involved in the project, at least the formation of it at that •time and the planning, I would suggest.

The other was to go ahead which was the wish indicated by the majority of people as the hon: the Premier has already suggested in this House on mor·e than · one occasion and this is the decision we 51S6

MR. NOLAN: did take at that time.and so we are going ahP.ad with the project. It is not easy but as for the question mentioned by the hon: Leader of the Opposition we are· now having people look into the matter that he has brought up hoping that we can come, if there has been negligence involved for example then we are certainly going to do something about it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, on orders of the day I would like to ask the bon. the Premier whetbe .r he has anything to report to the Bouse about the matter brought up las~ Friday concerning the men from whom bail was taken up in Churchill Falls last week and then they weraa,parently moved out of Churchill Falls although their trilil was set fdr June 11th when the_ Magistrate visits Churchill Falls, is there anything ~o report? The bon. the Premier said that the Government was investigating the matter, is there aoything to report on that? MR.

SMALLtro<>D: 1 can report that the Government have been inquiring into it and causing inquirtes to be made into it and this ha~ - ~een·done through the /' bon. the Minister of Justice and it has been , ~e/ on his behalf by the R.C.M.P. and others and he will soon have a report. A part~al report has already been received aQd the matter is not as simple as it may have been made out to be or it may on the surface appear to be.

It first came to my notice when one of the participants in the row came in to see me with'hia face cut up and told .e the . / story initially from h~ point of view and certainly it vas serious enough to necessitate our having· ianediate inquiries ude. Bec:auae what appeared to be the case vas a moat diabolical subversion of justice in that men were taken by the police without any reference to aoyona and just sl&DIIM!d on a plane:;,aod kicked, booted out of their own native Province or one part of it to go· to aaother part of 1~.

I say ·this f..a what it app~ared .on the surface to be but evidently farther evidence would indicate that it 18 anything but that and if it were tbat I J1Y8elf 110uld be willing to rip it vide open, I would rip it apart before I would allow a Revfoundlander to be taken by a cop and put on a plaDe~thout protection of the courts and justice and the reat of it. I would rip it apart, I would rip the whole project apart before I .vonld allow one ..a to have injaatice done ht.. 5187

-·-,1 _..., .... . . MR. SMALLWOOD: I did it before, I did it on the official opening when the bon. the member of this House of Assembly for Labrador West was there present and was not given a place on the platform and I ordere~ it done. I would have kicked up the biggest stink, I kicked up a big enough stink as it ~as but I would have kicked up a worse stink if he had not been placed in an honourable position on the platfo~ and I would do it today. Now that he votes against me and talks against me and works against me I would do it just as quickly and just as readily for bU. or (or any other Newfoundlander.

So when this was reported to me I saw red but my bon. colleague who is a 811eh cooler head than I am said, "Alright, do not get too excited, let us look into, let us get the facts," and he is getting the facta. Those that have so far been obtained throw another light altogether on ~t and 1 would advise my bon. friend not to do what I was tempted to do, to go overboard about it. But 1 always see red when any injustice is done to anyone,if I think it is an injustice 1 go berserk.

It is the one. thing that makes me" lose my temper more than anything and sooner than anything else,and I thought that injustice had been done there. That man came in with his face cut up telling me that he had got beaten up because he tried to atop a row. - The innocent bystander who tries to get· in between a couple of snarling dogs, the dogs come off scott free and _ the man who tries to stop the row often gets beaten up and that was his story. Tbe facts are gradually being assembled. MR.

BURGESS: Supplementary to that and for the Premier's information 1 am quite eure that what he is saying is correct but I am sure that if 1 were given a week I could produce enough people to convince the bon. the Premier that not alone has this, now in this particular instance I am not quite sure, well I am sure that I could convince the Premier that I could produce enough people to couvince him that there have been people taken body and bags and p~t aboard the aircraft on innumerable occasions in that area. ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, of the bon.

Minister of .Justice, a:lill, ·"AD Act To Provide . for Ownersh:l.p of Individual Units in Buildings." read a first time, ordered _ read a second ti• on toiiOrrow. 51S8

Hay 2Sth, 1970 Tape 1012 JM- 4 On .ation, that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, before we proceed with Supply under 404-03 I aak the bon. the Minister of Finance a question on the per diem charge for the Royal eo..ission on Labour under Dr. Cohen, I think it is. He said at the time he conld not answer it as his colleague, the Minister of Labaor was not present. I wonder if they got together and got the information for me, the cost per day aad if this is exc1U8ive of travelling and hotel.accom.odations. MR.

CROSBIE: What item are we on now? D. EARLE: This is 404-03. MR • .JUlfES: Mr. Chainaan, we have the information. The terms of reference are to pay the Commission a per diem. rate of $475.00 totalling a maximum of $25,000. in any one year plus incidental expenses. Now, Mr. Chairman, I will give the breakdown. $200.00 per day for Dr. Cohen, $150.00 per day for Mr. Bell, $125.00 per day for the Reaearch Assistance that is the total of $475.00 per day for a maximum total in any one year of $25,000. MR. CROSBIE: ·Mr. Chairman, the Minister was going to check on the St.

Lawrence Radiation Commission and whether the . cost of that commission have all been paid for or how much is left to be paid for and what the cost was? MR. JONES: Mr. Chairman, there is a balance outstanding for the St. Lawrence Radiation Commission of $62,300. wpen the estimates were prepared in Noveaber this amount was not anticipated and we were advised by the Commission that the fands would not be required in the past year. MR. CROSBIE: Is the Minister going to increaae the ~stimate? MR. JONES: Well we have two choic~s. Mr. Chairman.

I understand we can pay it out of interim supply from another sub-head or we can increase the estimates or we could put in a lump sum. We could ·pay it I think out of the general contingencies vote or out of countervailing savings. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall item 405-01 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Before we get on that item, Mr. Chairman, there were a couple of other matters that the Minister was going to •:heck for us. One was Hotel 51E;9

MR. CROSBIE: Buildings Limited, who they report to or what Minister is responsible for t~em? MR. JONES: Hotel Buildings Limited are financed by the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation and this agency is the responsibility of the Minister of Economic Development. The chairman is Mr. Barry Dustan who is presently,! understand,.out of the city. HR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, on 405-0l,the ·Auditor General, there are a few general remarks I would like to make and I think particularily is the aatter of assistance in that Department. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. gentleman allow me to interfer with him?

Is he talking about this matter of the hote.ls because I have to leave the Chamber to take a terribly important MR. MURPHY: 1 am speaking on Item 405, the Auditor General's article. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, I see but .someone ask about Atlific - AN BON. MEMBER: I ask about Atlific. MR. SMALL "WOOD: That is over is it? AN BON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: Because I want to leave the Chamber for - AR BON. MEMBER: tbat 'was the Minister. MR. SMALLWOOD: Am I the Minister? AN BON. MEMBER: Yes. . MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, I am glad to hear that, I did not know. It is alright then I am not needed for a few minutes. MR.

MURPHY: I do not know if I aa- supposed to propose a motion of regret that the Premier baa to.leave for five minutes or so but I will carry on with the business of the Bouse. I presume to do so and wit~in hearing distance anyhow, he can always come back. That is with regard to the Auditor.General- MR. COLLINS: Be is gone out to receive apologies from the people in Gander who did not turn up ·last night. MR. MURPHY: No politics now please, this is very serious business. The gentle- .. n here is talking politics about the meeting in Gander last night but I am -51 SO

·.rape .L~, ... , .1M- 6 HR. MURPHY: not at all interested in it. With regard to the staff of the Auditor General, Mr. Chairman, we note in last year's estimates there were thirty-nine on staff. My ~derstanding is now that there are actually thirty-two although we pr~ject in the estfaates this year forty-three. Now apparently there has to be a lot of recruiting done and I .. just wondering what attempts are being made.

I have been infor.ed rightly or VTOngly that although the staff of the Auditor General is perhaps one of the .,st f.aportant functions or departments of Government that 1118DY who have been and are working with the staff would be more or less enticed to other departments because of higher wages or.salaries in other departments~ their grading probably goes up in other departments.

I am just wondering now what the effects of the auditing of the public accounts and the submission to the House will be because for some years this House,particularily this side,has been requesting a eo.mittee to study public accounts so that we can become perhaps more familiar, more intelligent with what is happening in all departments of Government? ~ was rather surprised last night watching the television program with the hon.

Minister of Education on it and he was queried as to why the Government had not seen fit to establish this public accounts Colllllittee on a motion submitted by private members of this House. The Minister replied, "The Government does not always have to do what private members want," but the absolute ignorance that the Minister of Finance had pufl .. the motion on.our Or~er Paper in a .,tion here that Mr. Speaker do appoint a select committee of the House and that was put on I think March 5th or March 7th by the bon. Minister of Finance that the Speaker do appoint a select committee.

So possibly it goes to shov just vbat some of us are aware of that is happening in the bon. House. Row the Auditor General's Depart.ent and it is quite amazing if the number of pages in the Auditor General's repor·t is any ittdication of the greatly increased a.ouat of work that is becoming the duty of the Auditor General to do. This year there are 414 pag~ in the Auditor General's report.

A few short years a~o, in 1964 actually, there were only 306 pages so we have another 100 pages of account& and when going through the accounts and the ~uditor General's work it •trikes me that we are, with this great new change we hear so much about and I 51~1

MR. MURPRT: .. aot aa actoaataat, in the accounting system of the Government the great nu.ber of boards and vhat not that bne sprung up. For eza.ple. let us take the Loan Boards and I - just taking this as a part of the duties of the Auditor · Ceneral aad I .. llOt discussing the fUQCtion of tl!ese Bo~s. we have 51:;2 .·

May 28 1970 Tape 1013 page 1. • four that I have here the Co-op Loan Board, the Farm Development Loan Board, the Fisheries Loan Board and now we have the Industrial Dvvelopment Loan Board. And between the four boards, and apparently they occupy offices and they are fully set up outfits, they loaned a total of $2,378,000 for the year. Now I presume, and I may be wrong, that the Auditor General has tQ go in and treat each one of these as a separate deparpment, more or less.

And the Industrial Development Loan Board. is one, I think it is the most recent one, but is fisheries, farm so on, cannot we regard this as the part of the industry of this Province or what does Industrial Loan Board deal with'? Is it only mining and so on and so forth? In my opinion and I think it is shared by a great many that these multiplication of .departments could be set up under one instead of having the Auditor General to have to visit four different groups which I pres~e he has to do. I am just taking this, because there is a separate auditor's table of each board.

There is a staff of seven which.is not t~o great for the four departments. Salaries $57,000. But there rnust be office space so on and so forth set up to administer this grea~, these great loan boards that loan $2 million. The finance companies will almost loan you $2 million now if you are working steady. So it is not a tremendous injection of money into development 'of industry of any kind.

I am just r:rying to point out;:that this is where sol!le of the accounting tight ve11 be dovetailed and perhaps the suggestion could be broukht from here that these loan boards would become perhaps under one Industrial Loan Board which I think I would be quite in order and the Auditor General again I saYfhere are thirty- two employee! at the end of Narch 1970. There is a projection of forty-three 1 am just wondering where th~se forty-three are going to be found.

There are many mo_re matters pertaining to the report, but I think the most basic one at this time is the fact of this committee on the public accounts has been moved by the bon. minister of Finance and as I said yesterday I am glad to see him back in harness and I am sure that the first opportunity- might be a good opportunity during these estimateH, to ask Mr. Speaker, now to nominate 51[;3

Kay 28. 1970 Tape 1013. Page 2. or appoint the Select Committee on Public Accounts and I believe we will all be better informed, perhaps a lot of the questions that are asked on the floor of the Bouse might be avoided, where you are probing into every little here there and everywhere and a lot of people feel that you are trying to make politics out of it and trying to jam the Government on money being spent on . . ~ings that they should not spend it on. But I believe that we want to be informed not only we, but, the people of the Provine~ just where their money is actually going. So,.Mr.

Chairman, there is not too much else I could add to it only to feel that under this new system it might be more efficient, &ut I cannot see quite frankly how the department of the Auditor General, as constituted, is n~•in a position to really handle the gr~at number of accounts that he must have to do and I think includes all the municipalities in the Province. And that is a c~nsiderable load .in itself.

But I would suggest that we might look at these loan boards in a rather seneible light constitute one industrial development loan board and I am sure we could have aa expert in co-ops and an expert in farming and an expert in fisheries on th~ one loan board rather than have the mutliplication, I would submit perhaps considerable expense for the administration of four boards instead of one. MR..CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add,,a few words on the Auditor General.I agree.

First of all I agree with the Leader of the Opposition. 'rhe motion baa been on the Order Paper since March 6, made by the Minister of Finance,that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Public Accounts. should be carried forward and should be carried forward nov. Your Honour will Temember that there was originally a private member's motion by the bon. member for Burin. T;his was debated on Wednesday and defeated by the Government, and on the following day Thar•day ~e minister of Finance introduced a •tion that the Select Co111111ittee should be appointed.

Why this has not been done- and that was · moved two and a half mo~ths ago Mr. Chairman, why that has not been IIOV8d ia a great -mystery. Does the minister intend to 51;14

Kay 28 1970 Tape 1013 Page 3. proceed with that '80tion? And I ~gree without elaborating any further ea ~t that the best situation wonld be Mr. Chairman, to nave a standing com-ittee on the Public Accounts. So that every year when the Auditor Geaeral's Report is tabled it just automatically goes to that standing cOIIIIIdttee and they deal with it and they deal with the Minister of Finance and they deal with any points the Auditor General brings up, and repott back to the Bouse and that is the way the whole matter should be resolved. Not like it has been this year or the year before.

However~ there is no point bringing in all the arguments, it has all been debated earlier in the session. I think that the validity of that approach is certainly demonstrated. The Atlantic Brewing situation is another further reason why we should have this select committee.he:e inthe Bouse this session, to go into that matter properly. . However, the Government apparently is' determined that the select cotmllittee is not to meet, and the- Atlantic Brewing incident is not to be gone into.

That the Auditor General's rema~ and his report of this year are not going to be gone into any further. · There is nothing we can do about that the Government has the majority of votes and that is the attitude we can do nothing other than point it out and let the public form their own opinion. Row, Mr Chairman, I agree with the Auditor General's reaarks, page 23 of his report, of this year. Be . ·ays ~ "In my opinion. ~~re- does oat appear to b€- 2 general recognition that the department of the Auditor General is a separate department established by and responsible to the Bouse of Assembly.

For years tbe appropriation :"f0 !his department was included in various subheads of the utillates for the lepartment e~f Finance. My predecessor and I have each protested this procedure. Some progress can be repa~ted in that 1969-70 the department aDA the Auditor General's appropriation was separately disclosed in the eatialltes .but it still appeared as a subhead of the Department of _Fiuance. I still am of the opinion powever, that fuu·:.~ecognition of the independent status of this office as the agent of the l.egislature dictates its separation 5125

May 28 1970 Tape 1013 page 4. from any supposed or implied administrative connection with any other department.• Now. Mr. Chairman. that is just good sound coDDDOn sense.

The Auditor CeDeral. is the representative of this Bouse and his function is to check on' tlae act.i-rlt.ies of the Department of Finance and other ' departments of Governments to insure that they spend the public's money correctly,in accordance with the estimates passed by this Bouse,that nothing illegal is done, and that any mistakes are aade that they are brought to light,and to have the Auditor General appearing as part of the uepartment of Finance or under their estimates or in a subsi.iary . •--rolt-··to the department of Finance is wrong.

Be should be recognized as having independent status as the agent of this Legislature. And I agree with his remarks there. Then he goes on Mr. Chairman, and the bon. Leader of the Opposition has mentioned it. Be had seven vacancies in his staff. Last year the esti~ates provided for thirty-nine people on his staff. Despite that he only had thirty-two on his staff. ·There was seven vacancies. And he goes on to say:.

" 'lhree were direct result of rejection by Treasuey Board of recommendations received in the approved manner through the Civil ~ervice eo.dssion. and accepted by me in the preceding September." By mid-August vacancies had risen to tea, ten.out ' of thirty-nine,one third just about of the Auditor General's staff. MR.ROBERTS: Ten out of thirty-nine is a quarter. MR.CROSBIE: A quarter. Fine,a quarter. The minister's arit~tic,; is impeccable. Almost a quarter of his staff was gone in August 6f 1969 that is a very seriouS situation. MR.SMALLWOOD: Not impeccable. infallible.

MR.CROSBIE: Well I did not know that papal infallible extended to the minister of Health. But perhaps it does. Infallibility extends :f:a my view Mr. Cllairman, infallibility does not extend to anyone in t:his Bouse or anyone I know of ia the wqrld and this Government is not an inf.allible one• I think we demolllltrated that time after time in this session. 5196

May 28 1970 Tape 1013 page 5. One-quarter of his staff. J;Ie had one"-Cluarter off .He vas without oae­ ~uarter of his . staff last August Mr. Chairman, that is the point. And he said, by •mid-August vacancies had risen to ten before Treasury Board finally gave approval of certain requests he had submitted in May. And what is even 1110re alarming is that he lost two senior members of his sraff. Two chartered acco1mtan ts ·- MR. MDRPHY: Mr.

Chairman. this is a very important subject and anything importsntj'l~~s o~er side happens always to bring up a big joke MR.ROBERTS: We are able to listen to the - MR.MURPHY: The bon. members on the other side 1 they do not give a boot. It is. a funny thing about this, but the hpn. members on this side - MR.ROBERTS: Of course we do - MR.MURPHY: Well be quiet and listen to it. MR.ROBERTS: We are listening. Be quiet and let us listen. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman. can I continue? Mr.

Chairman. the Auditor General goes on to say that he lost two qualified chartered acco1mtants last year which in his opinion was due to the recommendations for salary increases being . resisted by the Treasury Board; Now, in the estimates this year there are fo~ additional positions p~ovfded for. for the Auditor General, from thirty-nine it goes to forty-three • What is the point of the House approving additi~l .

Poaitions if the Auditor General is going to be harrassed this year by the Treasury Board refusing to have them filled, or by the House not voting and the · Treasury Board not approving sufficient for him. for the Auditor General to keep qualified chartered accountants1 This I think is a very important matter and perhaps the Minister of Finance wou1d not mind explaining what the present position nov .is. Has there been an improvement in the position of the Auditor General's staff since he wrote this report? His report wa& obviously written some three or four months ago.

Could the minister tell us what. how many are ftO'W on staff there? And are any of these senior positions . now filled? And what the position is on the Auditor General's"staf£1 And one other point 5137

May 28 1970 Tape 1013 page 6. Mr. Chairman, The estimates, I have here the estimates of the Province of Nova Scotia which seemed to be in a much better format thaqpur estimates, Nova Scotia gives the actual amount spent. Ibis is 1970-71 estimates of Nova Scotia. They show the actual amount spent in 1968-69. The estimate that had been made for 1969-70, and then _ they show the estimate for 1970-1971. We were discussing this the other day in the House, the Premier said it might be a good idea to do this.

But I think,looking at the Nova Scotia estimates, that the Minister of Finance might very well do this next year. Becauae you get a much clearer picture if you had the act.ual amount expended even if it is a year ago.

In 'the estimate , for last year and the estimate for this . ~ar,1ilhac we do what with this, buttwe have now is the estimates that were made up for last year and for this year, ,and the revised estimates for last year which is useless because sometimes/ates not even approach the actual, So I wonder if the Ktnister of Finance would consider looking at haW Nova Scotia does it and perhaps other provinces. They also give Mr.

Chairman the page number of the estimates, and the page number of the Public &ccounta,on the side,so that you know where to refer to in the Public Accounts, when you are looking at these estimates. There are other things in the Auditor General's Report- MR.SMALLWOOD: .'The bon. gentleman, could he tell me how the wealth of details aiven in the Nova Scotia estimates compares with the wealth of detail given 1.n our estimates. Or the estimates of any other province in Canada. Bow do tbey all compare with ours for waalth of details? Kll..CIIOSBIE: Then are 121 pages in this Nova Scotia one.

How, how they compare for details, I would say they ·compare favourably for details. MR.IOBERTS: Bigger pages. We give muc:h 'IIOr& infonaation and the details MB:. SMALLWOOD: Than any other province in Canada. MR..CROSBIE: Looking at the estimates of Nova Scotia I woul!l not agre~ with that. For example, Mr. Chai~, estimates page 113, Department of Public Worb, gi-.es awry public: building and whAt it cost to upkeep every single 51J8 " ..

Hay 28"1970 Tape 1013 page 7. . building. it is all listed here. Under the departments. what the buildings were and how much they cost. HR.SHALLWOOD: .. Look at the size of the page, look at the number ff the pages and compare • KR.CROSBIE: There is no less detail in the Nova Scotia estimates than there i~ in. the Newfoubdland estimates. arid it is set out in a much better way. Another thing is much better set out is their debt position Mr. Chairman.

MR.ROBERTS: If the bon~ gentleman wants to look at page 150, details on our public buildings, covering light, heat. power 1cleaning, rentals.for every public building. MR.CROSBIE: These estimates here do not show. MR.ROBERIS: Page 149 gives the details of repairs and maintenance, Appendix four and f1 ve • MR.CROSBIE: The Newfoundland estimates do not show every building that is owned by the Government and the amount spent on that "building. This is all I am pointing out. There is not the same detail at all. The Nova Scotia estimates Mr. Chairman, on the - MR.SMALLWOOD: That was ours twenty years ago.

KR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman. I have my opinion, the Premier may have his ovn. Nova Scotia today, this year, are far superior in their preaentad.on than are the estimates of the Government of Newfoundland,in ily opinion. P.-p eleven see how the debt charges are dealt with. And the clear way they are set oat. What the debt charges are and what portion of the funds bo-rrowed by the net Province and reloaned at interest to give their actual1cost to the provincial debt and so on • These ~iil stand up with ours or better in their presentation, . in my view, than ours • .

All I am suggesting is that the Minister consider some improvements for our estimates. It would be a lot better if we had tbe actual · for the year before last, forget this revised estimate, nonsense) because it is only misleading. And the estimates · for last year "revised or not and the 5199 •

May 28 ·1970 Tape 1013 page 8. estimates for this year. MR.EARLE!. Mr. Chairman. perhaps the bon. minister will allow me to .ake a few explanations because so many of the things which were referred to transpired while I was Minister of Finance, particularly having to do with the staff of the Auditor General. For the information . of the House;during ~e term 1 wa~ · president of the Treasury Board there was a freeze put on by Government on all new posts and the filling of vacant posts. This was an economy measure.wbich was introduced last year.

And the Auditor General 1 like all other departments,fell under that ec~nomy measure. And these appointmentS were not made for that reason. Actually there was a deadline last year given as the 30th of June on which all essential new posts whi~ it was absolutely imperative should be filled. The Treasury Board should be notified of these by June the 30th of last year. ~y of the departments,although they had essential posts vacant 1 did not make that request. And consequently they were not considered·thereafter.

The Auditer General was not one of these.He did · make the request bat under the economy stringency which we were exercising at tha~ time these posts were felt by Treasury Board need not be filled at that particular periGd.

But 1 do agree with the comment in the Auditor General's Report tbat his department. his division.is one of the most important and it is essential that he not only have a full staff but a highly qualified staff. 1 think that therein lies some of the difficulty,that it is sometimes very difficult in competition with industry to get the type of staff that he wants and the qualified people that he requires and he cannot always fill these posts with the people that he wants.

But 1 think tt is also essential that Government insist waere possible that this department be .staffed as fully and competently as is possible • . It ia a very essential function of Government. While on the Auditor General's division. Mr. Chairman. 1 should know this 1 but 1 do not peraaps the minister his. in reply cnn answer. 1 am wondering how wide A scope is now in connection vith royal commissions and their various boards and so on. For instance, the 5200

May 28 1970 Tape 1013 page 9. Industrial Development Bpard. Bas the Auditor General full access to the ~xpenditurea o~ that Board, does he check them, and will he be peraitted to •ee and ahalyae the report of the Auditor on the bridge financing for the Shaheen Oil Refinery? Is this being made available to the Additor fer examination? js the Auditor already mentioned in his report and 1 contended at the time, and I still contend,the one item which needs real examination and should be subject to investigation by this House is the matter of the Atlantic Brewery which he ques'tions ·.

In spite of all the information which has been given · here in the past few days it is rather incredible that on public T.V. a former ainister of Finance last night did say that many of· these motions put on the paper were more or less of nuisance value and need not necessarily be attended to. The prese were very, very sloW in not picking that up because this was a Government motion and proposed by the Minister of Finance and he was condemning his own government's motion. MR.JONES: Mr.

Chailllllano I was going to try to answer some of the questions but as I said earlier it is very difficult to answer a series of questions from.on different topica.from different members all at one time. The 5201 I. I

MR • .JONES: hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred, I believe, to the position of the staffing of the Department of the Auditor Genera -l. The bon. the member for Fortune Bay referred to the

section of the Auditor General's report referred to by the bon. the member for St • .John's West which happened in the tt.e vhea he vas Minister of Finance. What .my hon~-friend said vas absolutely correct as there was a freeze on in all of the civil service and if any Deputy Minister, if he wished, in the Government of Newfoundland for that period wished to write a report to this House he would have made exactly the same complaint I am afraid.

We were endeavouring to, I was a member of Treasury Board, meeting after · meeting to keep a balance in our current account budget and one way to do it vas to curtail as much as we could salaries within the public service. We knew that several departments were becoming under-staffed and subsequently we began to relent. The Auditor General when I became Minister of Finance asked me if he could fill some positions and I went to Treasury Board and it was agreeded and at the present time I believe there are still some vacancies, I am not sure of the.number of chartered accountants in this department.

I would say that on the vhale,•t the present time,Treasury . Board is treating the ·Department of the Auditor General,staffwise, probably more leniently than any other Department of Government because we realize and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition pointed out the multiplicity of accounts which these men must handle.But the Auditor General is having difficulty in finding chartered accountants to work in his department. !'Ill. SMALLWOOD: Bow many does be have? MR. JONES: Three CA'a: one $12-14,000 and two $9-11,000. MR. SMALI.l«)()D: Three CA' a , how many non-CA 's? MR • .JORES: Vell, the balance of - MR .

SMALLWOOD: The Deputy Auditor General is not a chartered accountant, is he? · MR. JONES: No, these th~ee have not been filled as yet, Sir. MR.. SMALLWOOD: How many are there with their CA' a? MR • .JONES: There is just the one. MR. SMALLWOOD: The Auditor General himself. HR • .JONES: That is right. 5202 ~ .. .... , .... , .

HR. SMALLWOOD: The Deputy Auditor General has not another CA. MR. JONES: There are three CA'a in the Department of Finance. Mr. Chairman, if I may? The Leader of the Opposition said that it was his understanding during the period previous to these estimates that staff of the Auditor General's Department was e~ticed away to other Departments. Now I would like to correct that. There was no inducement held out, there was no enticement for anyone to leave the Auditor General's Department.

It was done on straight competition_ 1f there vas a vacany and three of them did come into the Department of :Pinance on promotion - MR MURPHY: It will end up that in another year all you will have down there is office clerks. MR ROBERTS: If I may, because it is an important point and one that comes up time and time again 1 *Y friend, the member for Fortune Bay will remember· eighty-thousand discussions in Treasury Board, along these lines. There is a Deputy Auditor General, a very competent fellow. He is not a C.A.but he is nonetheless a very competent auditor, and he can be just as competent as a C.A.

A "C.A." merely is a certificate, a seal of approva~, of good health. Hear me out now. Hear me out. Mr. Richards is every bit as competent as a C.A, but he is not a C.A. Now, Mr. Bernard Carew, who was junior to Mr. Richards, in the Auditor General's setup, applied for a position, ·which was advertised. I think we call it "Controller of. Revenue~ but.ia equivalent to th~ Assistant-Deputy Ministerahip of Finance, as my colleague said the other night to the committee. Now that ia equivalent to the Deputy Auditor Generalship. I am not sure that it is e~~ctly equivalent in dollars but the positions are the same.

So Mr. Carew put in and there was a board (I do pot know who was on it, I was not and DO ~niater was) and he got the recommendation and was appointed. Now surely you cannot solve that. "That happens everyday. My colleague, the Minister of Supply and Services, has lost two or three of his senior officials to other departments~that they do not want. It has happened to me in Health. This is a fact of life in Government and that is just within the Government. MR. EARLE: They also took a very good one from Finance.

HR. ROBERTS: Well, that has happened before and not only that then you lose them outside Government. My colleague, the Minister of Highways, was telling me this morning that within the past few days he has lost two engineers who have gone to work with consultants. The consultants make them a better offer so what can you do, Mr. Chairman~ Dollars and cents are important and that is what people work for. HR. MURPHY: Some of the civil service do absolutely nothing and are paid 1110re than fellows that are contributing an awful lot. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is a common belief and if through some- MR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. Leader of the Opposition say that again? MR. MURPHY: There are higher paid men in the service.than some who are doing a lot of work 1 and that are just ornments and pushed in their because of their political affiliations. MR ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, all I can say that it is a commonly held belief butif_at at some point the hon. gentleman is blessed with the seals of office I think he will find, no doubt, that there is no truth in it.

Let him speak to his friend from Fortune- Bay, who has had ministerial experience, or the gentleman from St John's West or the gentleman from Bonavista Nortb,who has also had ministerial experience. MR EARLE: .The Leader of the Opposition is perfectly right. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, the Leader of the Opposition is right MR. MURPHY: Sure always. MR. ROBERTS: The Leader of _the Opposition is right. Ah:that is party loyalty, , that is thinking for themselves, Mr. Chairman. MR.

MURPHY: Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for a type that is pushed in there because of faithful service they rendered the great Liberal Party of Newfoundland. MR ROBERTS: Right! Right! MR MURPHY: And on the next item I win prove it to you. HR ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman - MR CHAIRMAN: Order please: We are on the Dflpartment of the Auditor General. MR ROBERTS: MR. Chairman, I coul~ continue with a few comments on the Auditor Gene!ral, the point about the vast cuts the hon. Leader of the Opposition "'52G4

May 28th, 1970 Tape 1014 JM- 4 MR. ROBERTS: is going to make in the Civil Service will be taken ,- up with another place. The whole point of salaries or classifications which is what we are talking about is a basic one and that is why the Government brou'ght in a reclassification scheme and why we intend to go ahead to implement it in consultation with the groups concerned as we did before. Mr. Chairman, the whole point of this is that you will always lose people to other jobs and you cannot hold a man. If a man comes to you and says, "Mr.

Minister or whoever it is, Deputy Minister, I have a chance of another job:oand it is an extra $2,000 a year and I am going to take it" you cannot say, "Well, we will upgrade your job." Then you would end up, take for example here, you would end up with say seven Deputy Auditor Generals, not really very practicable. The Auditor General has had staffing problems.. We have a freeze on the Civil Service which is still in effect and the amount of hiring in the Pabllc2Serv1ce is very, very small.

We have cut 115 jobs out of the Department of Health, if the hon. gentleman wants to look at the estimates and that has affected the Auditor General. I do not think it has affected him unfairly and unduly, I do not think the Government are not cognizant of the need for an Auditor General and I do not think the Auditor General will get anything other than completely fair treatment. And my colleague, the Minister of Finance, says because it is the Audit·or General we should give him a little better treatment, and I think the records will show that we have.

However, I was speaking only to the point made by the gentleman from St .John's Centre, Mr. Chairman; and that is that you will always lose people by promotion, either within the public service or without, because they get a chance of a better job. And you cannot hold them by rearranging your entire staff establishment just to hold them. On the other points., if the bon. gentleman want to raise them later, I will debate them later, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, it is all well and good what ·the bon. Minister says and there is a lot of truth in it.

Sure, w~ know you are going to lose men if you do not pay them more but the estimates here certainly give the appearance and the Auditor General says in his report the impression is given ~205 I·

uay 40Lh, .L:71U won - _, MR. CROSBIE: that his department is being stranglulated and I would say by looking at the estimates that it is. The Deputy Auditor General·, now this maybe a typing error, last year apparently he was paid $15,000 (page 98) and this year be 1• down to $11,500. MR. ROBERTS: That means he took a cut of $3,500. MR. CROSBIE: That is right. Well, do you want to explain that? (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS : Would the bon. gentleman let me make an explanation? Is he interested in the next page~ MR. MUIPRY': Yes.

MR. ltOBERl'S: Alright then if you will be quiet I will try to provide it and my colleague _C:-~ correct me where I am wrong because I am going from memory. MR. MURPHY: Do not give it from memory, give us the facts. MR. ROBERTS: If .. the hon. gentleman wants an explanation I will try to gin it and when I am wrong my colleague will correct me.

There i6 an explanation for ·th•t and the reason is that the Deputy Auditor General in the estimates last year, the salary votes, were,as I think my friend !rom Fortune Bay explained, the maximum and then they were to be implemented by the Cabinet and by the Tr_easury Board and that was explained to the Rouse last year at the ti.e. Die $15,000. looked to a salary scale of a CA as a CA for the Deputy Auditor Ce.eral. !be Deputy Auditor General is not a chartered accountant and therefore he 1a .at being paid 8$_ a chartered accountant.

I think that :f,s the explanation. - 1hd: is the explanation, the Deputy Auditor General has suffered no cut whats~ in salary nor will he. That would be unconscionable. He did not get the $15,000. The $15,000 was authorized last year and the actual positioa ... not filled ~t the $15,000. level. MR. MURPHY: How much? MR. ROBERTS: I assume it was $10,000, $5,000 or $11,000 or whatever it is .... I do not have that. MR. CROSBIE: Well, that explains that,you see,but nov this is the point. Mr.

Chairman, how can the Auditor General have a strong department, if for his Daputy,whether he is a chartered accountant or no~ it is $11,500 a year1 ~ .. 5206

MR. CROSBIE: Deputy Ministers of the Government range from $30,000 a year in Health down to $15,750. Nov here is a Deputy Auditor General whether he has a CA or not, he is a man with long experience in the Department and just as valuable as a CA . with that experience even though he has never passed ~hose exams yet the Deputy Auditor General gets $11,500.

The Auditor General is looking for chartered accountants and as the Premier said earlier they are very difficult to get these days yet there is one position for $13,500 which was ta~en out this year then you go down to a Director Grade eight $12,100 and a Director Grade seven $12,100. So $12,000 is being offered for chartered accountants, well, Mr.

Chairman, you just cannot get a chartered accountant who has any experience at all for $12,000 a year and unless something is done to help the Auditor General, sa.e special arrangements are made for him to get chartered accountants he is going to be severely hampered in his work. He is not BQing to get them for $12,000 get a year. He migh~some chartered accountant now who is just graduated 'and he might be able to k~ep him for a year or so or two on $12,000 a year, I do not know.

But he says that he lost two last year and this is in his report because recommendations were not accepted by the Treasury Board and he is not able to recruit other qualified staff to replace them. Now as the bon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned there are other people apart from Deputy Ministers _ getting salaries anywhere from $15,000 to $20,000 none of whom are any more important in the function of the Government than the Auditor General.

So ! _feel and I recommend to the Government or _suggest that soaetbing be done if in fact the Auditor General cannot get a couple of chartered accountants to help him there is something to tie dona here because these salary scales are low in relation with the rest of the Government. Look at the Department of finance, the staff in the Department of Finance, the Assistant Deputy Ministers are getting up to $18,000 in Fiqance, $15,750 and the Deputy Ministers are getting .are than that. Directors in Finance, I do not have the exact seale but surely the Auditor General's Department could be brought up.

If the Assistant Deputy MiDi•ter gets $18,000 or $15,750 something can be done to help the Auditor get · General/several chartered accountants. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Chairman, let me add that of course there is something in what 5207

MR. ROBERTS : the bon. gentleman says and we are constantly at this but let me add also that it is not quite correct to compare the Deputy Auditor General to a Deputy Minister. The Auditor General himself has Deputy Minister rank and indeed it ranks with the comptroller, the Deputy Minister of Fi~ance, to traditionally equate it. The salaries are the same, they are $20,000 a year as ia noted, indeed we do not vote them aa they are provided by statute, the Revenue and Audit Act. fiR. CROSBIE: What does the PAC say about this? MR.. ROBERTS : I do not have the details of the PAD here, Sir.

You kaaw it is a never ending question and it is one that we are constantly at. The Auditor General staff may very well need upgradings in the salaries being offered and this is a continuing type question. The Auditor General is not strictly corre~t when he g~~s the impression that if the estimates are there he can go ahead and spend it. No Deputy Minister, no Minister may spend just in the estimates as the estimates ar.e what we are allowed to spend but it is up to the Government themselves to spend and to take the responsibility of it.

This is discharged normally under Cabinet direction by the Treasury B9ard, that is the function of the Treasury Board to implement detailed expenditures and particularily changes. But the whole question of the renumeration in the Auditor Geaeral's Department is a question that we are looking at. There are difficulties, very real difficulties. The difficulties of getting people, the difficulties of holding people and they are not all financial, Mr.

Chairman, :- and there are also difficulties of paying the staff commensurate with other equal responsibilities throughout the public service, Sir, because there is a definite relationship throughout the public service. MR. CROSBIE: Would the Minister permit a question? Here is another anomaly. The director of central accounts in the Department of Finance, the man in charge of accounting, gets $14,000 a year and the Deputy Auditor General gets $11,500 or the director under him $12,100. These are all anomalies. MR.

ROBERTS: The director of central accountu is a chartered accountant in the Governaent, one of the key officials in the G~vernment and he is a CA. He is, 5208

MR. ROBERTS: the other working title we use for him is the chief,· he is the Government's chief accountant. Now I am not saying that he should pe paid less or that somebody else should not be paid more but the anomaly is not quite ag anomalous as it looks. If ve can find CA' s, Mr. Chairman, we will hire them or we vill autbori.ze them to be hired if it is not we that do the hiring. The difficulty is finding them as I have the same problem in Medica-Care and the Committee may have'naticed advertisements in the newspaper again this morning.

We have lost the comptroller of Medica-Care and QOW we are trying tp find a replacement for him and it is not an easy job. CA's are very precio~s animals indeed, Sir, they are highly skilled and they are well paid and they are in short supply. They are something like doctors. AN_ RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Oh, I am sorry. The new incumbent of the chief accountant is getting $11,500 starting at the bottom of the scale, that would have been Charlie Earle would it before he was promoted? The $14,000 was with reference to Mr.

Earle who was chief accountant but is now one of the ADM's in the department~promoted, I believe, to replace Mr. Ralph who was ·moved to be Deputy Minister of Supply. MR. EARLE: In all the welter of questions I rather imagine that the Minister has lost track of one particular question which I would like to have answered. I ask this, does the Board, does the Auditor Gener•l examine the accounts of the Commissions and the Boards and in particular has he had access to or will" he have access to the audited report ori the bridge financing in connection with the refinery? ?-m. JONES : The answer is yes and no.

I under a tand, Mr. Chairman, that the Auditor General or the Auditor General's staff does audit the accounts of the various boards. I think the second part of your question was has he had access to the accounts of the bridge financing and I think the answer is no. I cauaot answer that, Mr • Chairman. While I am on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I would like to revert to the remarks made by the bon. the member for St. John's West where he displayed to the Committee a copy of the public accounts and the estimates f~m the Province of 5209

MR. JONES: Nova Scotia. Nov I may aay that in my office I have copies of the public accounts of every Province in Canada including ~he Federal Governaent and there is a great .ariety of •ethods of presentation in all these accounts. Rov in hia opinion he thiuks that the accounts of Nova Scotia a~ better than oars. 1 .. sorry I do not agree vith him and I would say that if you look at, 1 think it is, Manitoba their accounts, their estimates are a little booklet that you can stick in your vest pocket and I do not agree with that.

But there is one thing about it, we have been looking f.or some time at a new foraat, a nev presentation for these estimates. Now I could not agree more that this revised estimates for the past yea~ is practically meaningless. It is more~f a _guide, 5210

MR. E.S.JONES: Guide, I do not know if now by present day accounting it serves any purpose. We have to bear this in mind, if we are going to change the presentation of our estimates, the whole format of it is not something you can do overnight. It may very well involve changing book­ keeping procedures right throughout the whole Government service. Probably ve could drop the revised estimates, _ this column to the farthest of the right page. AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. JONES: Well I do not think Mr. Chairman.

I am prepared to recommend anything that would give the more lucid picture to the members of this committee as far as Government expenditures are concerned. I cannot see that we ca~ do it piecemeal. I think that any changes that are made here must have the backup of proc "edures throughout the Governm~nt service. We have been following more or leas the same format for a great .number of years and it could be.

We have members of the department, officials of the department looking into this continuously and possibly by the time the next years rolls around, whoever happens to be here as Minister of Finance wili come up with a new format, I .do ·not knaw 4 • Treasury Board officials are looking at it, the Deputy Minister and Comptroller are looking at it, we have had talks about .. it and I would hope, I would think that in the course of time we will be able to give a 11mre, I was ~1Dg to say fah:loaahle presentation of our estimates. MR. MIJRPRY: Mr.

Chairman, Just one further question I would like to ask as a matter of information. We ·have one director grade VII, personal in brackets. Is there any significance attached to that in the breakdown? It is on page 98, item 4-D5. oDe director, grade VII, personal, and the salary is $12,100. MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Is the bon. gentleman asking what the word personal means tl,tere? MR. MURFHY: I am just asking what significance is attached MR. SMAl.LWOOD: This occurs throughout,there 111U8t be twenty people on a 5211

pe~sonal rate. We are just on four or five now- Sir. ~ybe on the other• · nineteen·I might al6; the same question • • HR. MUlU'HY: MR. SMALLWOD: The one explanation could cover them all. t(R. MURPHY: Yes. that is right. that is right." MR. JONES: I really do not know, it might be a mispri~t, but I ~11 certainly try and find out Mr. Chairman MR. E.M.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. figuratively speaking, it means the gentleman is paid more than his scale MR. MURPHY: Yes. that is What it is. He is a grade VII and he is being paid the same as grade VIII and I was wondering why. MR.

SMALLWOD: Because frequently he is moved, if a civil servant is working in a certain job ~th a certain classification and a certain rate of pay, and he is moved to another job at a lower rate. He does not take the lower rate.he gets the rate he was getting, so that is called personal. It applies only to him. When he goes out of that job and someone else goes in he gets the regular lowe~ rate. HR. MURPHY: Would it not be more simple . to make him a grade VIII instead of. having this MR.. SMALLWOOD: No, no, no, no. you do not demote a man. MR. ROBERTS: When he goes out he . will be replaced by a grade VII MR..

MURPHY: Grade VII is a higher salary than a grade VIII MR. JONES: No. grade VIII is the higher salary MR. MURPHY: Well look at it, someone tight try to figure out what I am talking about MR.. JOBES: I am endeavouring to find out the ume of the person imrolved, but the Premier has givi!D the explanation as well as I can, that ia that this man came into the position. The opening was in a grade VII and he is overpaid at this position. MR. ROB~TS: The top of the grade VII scale is $12,000. MR. MURPIIY: Is he a personal friend of the minister, or a personal friend 5212

nay ~a, 1~10, ~ape lUL~, ~age 3 -- apu of the Premier? MR. JONES: I do not even know him MR.. MURPHY: I do not get the dgnificance MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, as the Premier and the minister said MR. E.S.JONES: As I have already told the bon. the Leader of the Opposition, I do not even know the ~n MR. MURPHY: I do not know him either, why is he in there? Someone must know. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the minister will find 09t the details of the individual concerned of course.

As the Premier has said and as the minister has just said, personal means simply that the salary being paid the individual is personal to him. In other·words, he is getting more than the post as established allows. In this case, the gentleman is getting $100. more than the grade VII rate, and that means MR. MURPHY: It is the same as the grade VIII MR. SMALLWOD: The reason MR. ROBERTS: The reason I do not know MR. SMALLWOOD: Normally the reason is MR.

ROBERTS: Well, normally as the Premier said the reason is where an individual has moved in from another department, you do not cut his pay and you do not change tqe - Mr.· Chairman, the bon. gentleman perhaps, ve should go back over this. A:. department or a division is established wi.th one at such and such a level, three at such and such a level and seven more, and then six short-band tyPists or what have you. These are all set on the scales set forth. The scales are very rigid, they have to be or else there is no equity at all.

If an individual is brought in and the scale for one reason or another ~s not adequate, then a personal Rrangement is made. Here the personal arrangement brings the gentleman $100. more than ~he top of the scale. I do not know the particular circumstances the minister can get those. There are a number of tbese throughout the estimates, and that is 5213

·May 28, 1970, Tape 1015, Page 4 .-- apb vhat personal means. When the individual resigns or retires or dies, or leaves the po•ition, the new appointment will be a grade VII which is a scale that starts at about $11, .000. and goes up to about $12,000. by the increments. MR. MURPHY: The same pay as a grade VIII MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes, and he might be getting the same pay as a grade IX. Grade IX is not fixed. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I have .another question, but first the bon. minister has been back since Tuesday and we forgot to welcome him to the Bouse when we started on his estimates.

There was some excitement going on in the House at the time, any, I would like to welcome him back to the House now. MR. MURPHY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition did. MR. CROSBIE: Did you? MR. SMALLWOOD: · Who is that, .who? MR. CROSBIE: The bon. Minister of Finance. He has been back for several days but we forgot to welcome him, at least on· this side here. He is looking fit. If we had all been gone for ·the last eight weeks we would all look fit. Anyway, MR. WELLs: Some of the bon. gentlemen have been gone for weeks MR.

CROSBIE: Some bon. gentlemen .are permanently gone, but we are not going to mention any names. How Mr. Chairman, would the minister tell us just to set our minds at ease before we leave this item whether he is going to proceed with his motion that be bad on the Order Paper before he left, before he beca.e ill. that is all, we just want to know whether it is going to be proceedecl with or not. Yea or no; and we will be able to relax. We will · aot have to bring it up again. That is the motion, motion (1).

The second question I have is this, does the Auditor General, is be the a1~tor for Newfouadland Industrial Development Corporation or not, aad if btt is liot the auditor for Newfoundl•md Industrial Development 5214

May 28, 1970, Tape 101,, Paae 5 -- apb Corporation who is their auditor, and who did the audit on the amounts of $5 million that were advanced by the Government in connection with the Oil 'Refinery at Come by Chance? Some body went to New York to do an audit and had great difficulty doing an audit of the monies that bad been advanc~d so I understand under this interim financing. If it is not the Auditor General, who is doing that audit and who are the auditors for the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation? HR. ROBERTS: Oh well, anyway the public accounts have it MR. JONES: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank the bon. the member for St. John's West for his kind remarks in welcoming me .back. Probably I would have been wiser if I had taken another two weeks and listened to my doctor and stayed for the full six weeks instead of four. I am quite . happy to be back, and I thank him very sincerely. The Auditor General does audit the accounts of N,I,D,C., the other

section of his question I am not . in a positio~ to answer, and it is the intention of the Government to proeeed with my motion to set up a Select Committee of the House to look into the public accounts and my statement. AN BON. MEMBER:· (Inaudible) HR. JONES: Well I ~ave just been back two days Mr. Chairman, you cannot do everything overnight •. HR. MURPHY: 02-Ql, I presume Mr. Chairman, this is, of course a number of auditors must travel the island and so on and so forth, it does not pertain to them. MR. JONES: I am amazed Mr. Chairman that this vote is so lov. Actually MR~ MURPHY: I· am too quite frankly, MR.

JONES: The amount of travelling . that these auditors do is tremendous, aDd travelling and board bills, and car hire and what have you, aDd incidental expenses, but apparently this is the figure that was given us by the HR. MURPHY: I was rather surprised, they do an awful lot o~ going. Pity 5215

o- · -r· we do not have Cabinet Minister the same. MR. MURP~ 4060-1, Mr. Chail'lll&n, on this one here, nov this is something that 1 think ve could do without. I -quite honest and"quite aincen on this. Here we have what we call a civil service coadssion, and at the present time due to the tragic death of the chairman there is a vacancy there. I would suggest now that before we go into appointing another chairman, that the whole area of the effect or the work of this commission should be very seriously looked into.

In my opinion, and I say this, and I have said it .any times, it is purely a feather bed. for devoted supporters of the yarty. All these mine personal, personal friends of, /Jack Robinson,and I grew up vith bi.a, played basketball with him. Mr. F-ewer in Grand Falls I have known hi• for years. But, Mr. Olairman I do not see why the people of N~oundland should be asked to dig down into their pockets to pay the salaries of gentlemen vbo bawe rendered very faithful service to the Liberal Party of Newfoumllancl. Mr.

Robinson, and I bought this up in the Rouse not long ago, we were talldng about salaries and member' and my lu:Jn. colleague · on my left, was elected in the by-election in Gander, he has to service all the area, welfare · orders, calls, be bas more mail, 1 would say, as mw:h mail as anybody in this Rouse, and his tremendous pay vas $8500 a year. Be is travelling back and forth, his board and lodging here in St. John's. the gentleman he defeated . sat on this Board for $11,000 a year. I think, Mr.

Cheiraan, it is tble for this little Province to have a very close hard look at where some of our .aniea are being spent. I do not know what the cost, I do not know what the office e~enses of this office are.

The salaries are $52,000, and I do not think I would be over-estimating that the expenses would not be in the vinic:ity of another $10,000 or $12,000, the office expense will reach $60,000. $60,000 is a lot of 1110ney to be wasting, and while we are wasting it, ve have II&Dy, many hundreds of civil servants, who have dewted their lives, career civil servants who would love to get a pro.atiOil to this, _even if they were 5216

MR. MURPHY: Assistant Deputy Ministers or top ranking civil servants, who I aa sure know more about what is needed in this building or in this civil servtc:e .. than three or four fellows that are down on Duckworth Street. I am sure if Bovaters want to hire men, they do not go to Goodyear and Boase to examine them, and say look we are iooking for four or five men, vbo do they get? They get senior men in their own departments, whether they are in the machine room~r whatever you like.

So I would move that this vote be deleted, I do not know if I can delete it entirely or reduce it to $1.00, but I think it is criminal, absolutely criminal for this House to vote money to reward, and this is a pure instance of it, as I say Mr. Fewe~ is a friend of mine, but I know his official function,in Grand Falls during elections, was campaign manager for the hon. the Minister of Education. MR. SMALLWOOD: I want to be clear, be is a dear friend of mine, I said this before, 'he is a dear friend of mine and I respect him, I now proceed to knife him. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, as far as this House is concerned and the Premier may feel different about his friends, but I do uot care if it is my brother, wflo is obtaining money under false pretenses, and I think we are responsible for spending the peoplea.money, the Premier might like to joke about it, .y dear friend, the Premier -bas got an awful lot of friends, he bu:Ut thea up over twenty years, they will 'be looked after. Ask anybody, Joe Smallwood always looked after his friends,and we were pretty well right, but let the Prellier look after them with his. own money, not with mine and the rest of the tax payers.

This is my argument. If the Liberal Party want to 'build homes for retired or defeated candidates or the party faithful, let him apply to Council and set up some of these bungalows like we are getting for some of the old people or someone else in this town, but let them pay the expe~e. And in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, and I cannot see anybody in this honourable House disagree with me on this matter, that. it is an absolute waste of p'IJ1)lic funds. J..n _ absolute waste. 5217

~ .. y ~oul • .&.'!Jtu, ·..:ape J.U.L.) 1 Page 8 _,_ apb MR. St-IALLWOD: You mean to have a Civil Service Commission? MR. MURPHY: And I would say, I would say this that there are civil servants, faithful civil servants who of some kind for $11,000 a year. I for years would love to be on a Board uld like to know wba~ percentage of civil servants after twenty-five or t~rty years are receiving it. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would 1' and I do not know if there is anybody in the House who wants to second it, I will move that this vote be reduced I to $1.00, for that reason, and that: edi.a t ely plans be made to set up I I I a Civil Service Commission, who are in a position to know what this Civil who Service requires, trained men,.ha,e spent years in Government. We talked a couple of years ago about, I brought the same thing up and said·, this is an independent world, independent.

Lord Bless us, anybqdy who uses that is uttering the u·tmost filthy liP. that ever could be, because they are put their for one reason only, it is not ability or anything else, it is just because of services rendered. And I will repeat again, that this Government or any other Government that takes over, and I have said it in our own party, I would not stay with any Government that is going to use public funds to reward their faithful. I think it is absolutely immoral, I think it is dishonest, and an absolute waste of the money of the people of this Province, who God alone knows, cannot afford it.

So, I would move Mr. Cliairman, that this vote be reduced to $1.00. MR. H. R. V. EARLE: Mr. chairman, I would like to second the bon. Leader of the Opposition's motion. Perhaps for other reasons than those he mentioned~ althought I agree with a lot of them. But there is an over-riding reason which is far more important than this at the moment. In the Department of Financ~under the new Public Administ~ation Survey, there is a Personnel Division set up, which is doing excellent work.

Now I envisaged at the time that there would be some conflict of purpose between the Personnel Division and the ·Civil Service Commission, This was d~scussed at the time by Treas•Jry Board, and it was generally agreed that this would be a very thin lin! that would have to be throdden, the functions of the Personnel Division are very difficult to segregate ftom those of the Civil Service . 5218

1'1AY .Lo&;n. L~IU MR. EARLE: Co~ssion, and I envisaged a combination of these two Boards to do a really proper job. With all respects to the late Chairman and the people who work under him in the Civil Service Commission, I do not thiak they are e~ered to do a proper job. I do think either they had the staff or the trained people or anything else to do the job that vas required of them, and he was constantly under a very, very heavy burden in trying to do the impossible. Now this should be change, it should be changed drasticall, _.

Tne Civil Service Commission, as such, while I agree that it sbould be divorced :as completely as possible from politics, and political influence, should be made a properly functioning Board and should be staffed by fully trained people.

For instance, if you are going to hire somebody in the Department of Welfare or somebody in-.the Medical Field or· something like that, while there can be .consultation withi.ti the different departments,by the Civil Service Commission, unless thi.s particular job is exempt and outside of them . they really have not got the qualifi.cations to decide who should get that job, the right type of person, and the right qualifications.

Therefore, it is essenti.al that somebody who does, somebody who can judge these things would carry out his function, •nd this could well be done within the Personnel Division of the Department of PiDAllce.

This sbould' be tied together 1 . lt: ·would avoid duplication of fuacetoas=.and it would also in the long run save considerable expense. becauae DOW we are entering into an new era where jobs have been properly classified and the obligations and responsibilities of all public servants in these jobs, i.t should be from here on much easier for a proper Civil Service Commission to judge just what people and persons are qualified to pt these jobs.

And it would be a great step forward in upgradi.ng the public service over a period of years, if this whole function of the Civi.l Se~ce Commission and the Personnel Administration could be combined and made much more efficient. MR. CROS:UE: Mr. Chairman, 5219

May 28, 1970 Tape #1016 Page 1 MR. CROSBIE: I agree that the Civil Service Commission as it now exists is just about a useless body. It perfo~s no significant function. The Govemment of Canada for example have a Civil Service Coadssion, but that Civil Service Commisiion has a real power and has real authority. It engages in recruitment. It supervises promotion. It has an organization and methods branch. It examines the administration of various govemment departments, and recommends how it can be improved. It carries out all ~he function& of modem public administration.

And it is quite independent, and it has an expert staff. The Civil Service Commission of the Government of Newfoundland has·a staff- there is a Civil Service Commission, a chairman and two commissioners, that is three. And then there are three others. One officer, one shorthand-typist and another shorthand typist, now what can this Commission accomplish? All it does is in certain lower grade posts in the Civil Service, this Commission decides whether a shorthand typist can take shorthand or type. Or which one of two or · three of them is a better one.

Any significant position in the Civil Service has been exempted, and I would like the minister to tell us;how many positions in the Civil Service have been exempted from the ambit of the Civil Service Commission? I would guess that it is at least a thousand if not more. Just about any significant position in the Civil Service, or many of them have been exempt and this Commission does not have the trained personnel to perform the job of a regular Civil Service Commission. Now either the Department of Finance should do all this work, as the member for Burin said.

You see Personnel Administration, in the Department of Finance,with a staff of eleven. I believe it is eleven. Per•onnel Administration, nine, I am sorry, with a staff of nine ~oing personnel Work and a Civil Service Commission with a staff of six. three of wh~ are the Commissioners, uone of whom have any training in personnel administration at all. So this body is quite usele11S, and either the Govemment should decide to go ahead with a proper Civil Service Commission.with st~stantial and important ftmctions, and take Personnel Administration out uf Finance and put it all vith 5220

May 28, 1970 Tape #1016 ·Page 2 the Civil Service Commission. Or it should do the reverse and have ·a Depart.ent of Finance that has a Personnel Administration Division, and that operates examinations for promotion, examines people to be hired in the first instance and so on. None of which is done nov.for the more important jobs in any event. So for those reasons 1 agree with the sentiments that have been expressed by the other speakers.

As far as the individuals are concerned on the Civil Service Commission, as long as you have a Civil Service Commission, with:' such limited powers as this one has, why not appoint people who have served somehow or other? 1 .ean if you are going to hav~ a Civil Service Commission that does not require anybody with any experience . or skill to be on it, who are you going to put on it except people who have been engaged in public life,' and that have done certain other duttes, and they are going to get the nod naturally.

I mean you would not put on this Commission three experts in public administration, they would not go there. because they know the Commission has no important function. So I think the bon. the Leader of the Opposition has been a bit too moral when he says that politics should never enter into any of . these appointments at all. There are alway~ in every government . certain positions have to have somebody to fill them, 1 do not care if it is the Government of Canada or what GoveTD~Dent it is. So ·1 am not 110 much exercising that account as 1 am by the fact that this Commission bas nothing serious to do.

This is • the trouble with us. It is a deception to call it a Civil Service Commi$sion. And nov that the Department of .Finance is re-organized, 1 think that this Civil Service Commission should be eliminated and Personnel Administration should take aver its function in the Department of Finance. MR. lOWE: Mr. Chairman, 1 have to take exception to some of the statements that have been made here this moTOing, and 1 take exception for a very simple reason.· The statements are incorrect. They are just not true. To atart off with, the impre .. ion has br.en given that the Civil Service 5221

May 28, 1970 Tape #1016 Page 3 Commission as has been constituted in the past has been incompetent,in the sense, that there were no professional - no members of the Commission had been professionally trained in administration, or in administrative personnel. That is the impreHion. And that is critically correct.! suppose. The gentleman who passed away here a few days ago, and who for a number of years was chairman of that Commission, I do not think he took any special courses in personnel administration as such.

But here is a man who spent the equivalent of seven or eight years a~ University, among other things, but before he was appointed or concurrently with his appointment, Mr. Courage visited every Province of Canada and met with the Civil Service Commissions or whatever they happen to be called, in all the other provinces and the Federal one as well. And he spent months at that, months at that. Fo~ a scholar and a student and a bright man as he was, to do that, and then to say that that man knew nothing about it. This is nonsense. The statement was just made there by the bon. member for St. John's West.

That is what he said. And you have a man who I suppose is number two on the Collllllission there. Be happens to be a friend of mine. I know what I am going to say will be misconstrued. That gentleman served w1 th distinction in personnel work in the Royal Air Porce. He served ~ith distinction in certain aspects of personnel work with Price and was most highly regarded. Be had been me bead, one of the heads of the Trade Union movement in Newfoundland. Be had had tremendous experience in organizing and sizing up people.

Even his political experience was certainly not lost, and nobody em argue that a man who has served as campaign manager for let us say, eight or ten CaiiP&igns as he did, and nothing to be ashame~ of, nobody can argue that he did not benefit from that experience. An intelligent man, and a dedicated man Arid a man tolho had had a wide variety of experience. Nov I do not know so much about the third member. I cm not speak with so •ueh dl!tail about it, but certainly he :f.s a man too, who has had 11 lot of experience as an administrator, as a mayor of a town, as. a councillor 5222

and as the manager of Business Enterprises. Surely these men -when you have dedication, when you have willingness to learn• and when you have the intelligence, a reasonable amount of intelligence brought to bear. in the one group, surely they can perform seme function. Theft aft other considerations that have been brought to my attention, but I will not mention them right now Mr. Chairman. I want to get serious again on another aspect of it. The bon. member for St.

John's West said, that every,in effect, now I am paraphrasing, but I listened to hi• here carefully." Every responsible position in the government service has been exempted from the ambit of the Civil Service Commission!' Now that is what the bon. gentleman said. And that statement is incorrect. It is simply not true, and I want to say now. I do not think my hon. friend from St. John's West;deliberately would not make an untrue statement •. I say that sincerely. MR. CROSBIE: Has the minister-got the n~mbers?· MR. ROWE: Yes, I will give the bon. gentleman precisely, the numbers.

I will give him the numbers, and I will give the numbers(! am speaking coming extemporaneously) I did not even know this topic was/ up. I could have .brought up names and statistics. Now I want to say something. In this last two years, we have re-organized the Department of Education from top to bottom. We have re-organizecl it as far as personnel is concerned. We have had a lot of people leave the department, and we have enlarged the department at the executive level, and the administrative leve~ the size of the department I suppose has been tripled.

To my knowledge in the senior appointments,.the senior professional appointments, I am talking about directors of this and that and other things, various diviaions, and their assistants and so on, I am talking about people in the $9,000-10 -$11 -$12,000 class, Salary class. I am talking about these, I can bring a liat here and the only exemption that was 5223

May 28, 1970 Tape #1016 Page 5 ma~e to my knowledge, was that of the Associate Deputy Miniater, and is the recommendation of a deputy minister,as/well known, is the prero,ative of the Preaier anyway. MR. MURPHY: Does the minister mean that these professional people have to go to the Civil Service? MR. ROWE: I mean exactly that. That this Civil Service Commission did interview professional people and did examine their credentials. And they did it with my willingness. · I could have gone to Cabinet on the grounds that this was a specialty here or there or somewhere else, and had this post or that post made exempt.

And I elected not to do so. I have done it once or twice in my career as a minister of the Crown. I have done it for special reasons, when there were good reasons to do it. But I did not do it in these cases I am talking about now. I received,only la*t week, recoDDftendations from the Civil Service CODDilission. Now I will say this, that we have suggested;When the Civil Service Commission ~re dealing with professional positions, professional p~sts, and they are interviewing professional personnel, we have suggested and in fact th~y have offered to us the right to have some advis•r sit in there.

Not me, I have never sat in there in my life. But normally some person like the deputy minister or the a·ssociate deputy minister, they would be in touch with him, in consultation with ~im. We had only last week, I am just trying to remember the exact post now, there are so many of them. Our chief accountant, and the school attendance officers invariably have gone (and they are professional or semi-professional people, they are not all professionally trained, but some are) and the other posts as well - they have gone before that Board. And I want to pay a tribute now.

I want to say now, and I do this with no axe to grind. no ulterior motive whatsoever, that I have been,ori the whole, completely satisfied with the recommendations made by that Commission. They have recommended black strangers to me. I ha,~ had these recommendations 522tl

• May 28, 1970 Tape #1016 Page 6 subjected to analysis by impartial observers. I have gotten the advice of others. We have received (I did this oniy laDt week) we received recommendation from the Civil Service Commission. I submitted that recommendation or those recommendations to a committee of professional men in the department, made up of I think it is five of our top men in the department. And they came back and concurred in the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission. I agree with what the bon. gentleman said.

I do not think 1 frankly, I do not think the Civil Service Commission has enough skilled help. enough personnel. I think that probably we have been guilty of restricting them too much, and not giving them all the facility and all the personnel that they could use. But I want to say this, that in my opinion. they have done a fair . and impartial job there.· I have never tried to influence them. I do not think any bon. member or minister has tried to influence them.

When people from my district ( I make no apology for this) if John Brown or Mary Jones from my district writes in .as they do, as they do to every member of this Rouse, and say "look I would like to get a job as a stenographer in ·the G ovennaent," or "I would like to get a job as an accountant or what-have-you in the Government." I immediately write them back and say " I have received your letter. I ~ .. very happy to _support your application." That 1s if I know the person concerned. If I can speak sincerely and with consd.ence about the person.

I am very happy to support your application, whether that application is to Price or to Bowaters or to the Newfoundland Government. And then I will say .in .tha~ ·.letter. "All posts of this kind that you are interested in are handled by the Civil Service Commission and I am referring your application to that Commission.'' And it goes down there and that is all 1 knov about it, unless by·chance the person ends up in my department. I think the Civil Service Commission,in spite of the obstacles they have had, and in spite of the difficulties. &nd in recent months the acting cheirmaB of that Commission, 5u11er Mr.

Fewer hu do!"! •/human 1ob under great 5225 ......... . -:

May 28, 1970 Tape 11016 Page .7 difficulties. They have travelled to all parts in the things they do. 1 am sure hon. members do not know this. 1 happen to know practically b?' •cddent, in theSpring of the year. Ma~r 1 say that 1 served for three years on the Commission. I served as a member on the eo.ai.ssion unpaid. MR. COLLINS: Supposing Mr. Chairman, there is a job in the Civil Service that becomes vacant and one of the minister's constituents WTites to him and ask him to make representation to the Civil Service Comcdssion Ocr his behalf.

One of my constituents does the same thing in turn I go to the Civil Service Commission. Now it is no good for the minister to of tell me that his letter to the Commission,on the basisfthe way this Commission is constituted,would not have more weight than I would. I would never believe it and no other member of the House would believe it·. MR. ROlo.'E: Mr. Chairman, I want to say this. · I have never tried one iota to influence that Commission in any way whatsoever.

I take it that . . a rec0111111enda~ion made by any bon. member, whether it is the member for Gander, would carry some weight, and I would not recommend any person. MR. COLI.INS: It should not carry-any weight if the Commission was functioning properly. There should not be any need "for it. MR. ROWE: A testimonial, a character testimonial ought to have some bearing. If some young person from Grand Falls district writes to me and says, "may I use your name as a reference?" And if it some person whom I know, I am only to happy to tell them to use my name as a reference.

And I am only too happy to give a testimonial. But to say that the Commission is performing no useful function at the present time or in the past years MR. COLLINS: What Board is going to appoint a successor to the late Mr. Courage? What Board is going to do that? MR. ROWE: I am not able to answer that question right now Mr. Chairman. I just do not know. There was one point. One I wanted to make before 1 sat !own is this. We have a dozen trade schools in the great Technical College over here. Our Commission, the Civil Service Commission visits 52~6

May 28, 1970 Tape. 11016 Page 8 those schools and that College periodically and interviews all persona, all students there who want to be interviewed with the possibility of government service. And a Commission which does that alone, that alone in itself will give that Commission a tremendous amount of experience, and would enable them to be able to make I think, pretty reasonable and rational recommendations. I think ' that Commission has done a very good job, in spite of its handicap. I think that many of their recommendations have been very favourable received. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, before the Item passes, I wonld like to add a word to what has been said, but not along the line that bas been spoken, but along quite another one altogether. The practice that is followed in connection with the Civil Service · Commission is this~ That the Civil S~rvice Commission sends a recommendation to the Government that so and so be employed at such and such a job. They send three names into the Government, recommending all three of them, for one appointment. The Government no'l'lllally takes the top name, and he is appointed without any discussion in the Cabinet.

I do not remember five discussions in twenty-one years in the Cabinet about the recommendations that came from the Civil Service Commission. From the Civil Service Selection Board fbich preceded the setting up of the Civil Service Commission, and the period of the Civil Service C011111ission itself. The Government does not have to accept either one of the three recommendations. They normally take the name on the top. Indeed, I do not remember one single case where the Government did not take the name on the top, but did take some other name on the list of three.

I do not remember one case where the Government selected the second name or the third. 1 do not remember one single case in my career as leader of the G overnment. I do not remember ~ne. But the Government could reject all three. They do not have to appoint. They do not have to accept the recommendation of the 5227

May 28, 1970 Tape #1016 Page 9 Civil Service Commission. Now if they decline to accept the following procedure 1• followed. The name• go.back to 52Z8

HR. SMALLWOOD: to the Civil Service Commission and they are asked to recommend other names so along will come another list of one or two or three names and again the Govern­ ment may decline to accept them and will in that case send the names back, that . would be a second time and then a third time the Civil Service Commission vould submit a list. Now I know of only four or five cases in twenty-one years where the Government did not just normally and without further ado and with debate and without question did not take the name on the top and disappoint them.

I do not know four cases in twenty-one years where the Government sent the list back, not four cases in thousands. I do not think~·there were four cases in twenty-one years. I do not know of one case where the first name was rejected but we accepted the second name or accepted the third name. Always we take tbe name on the top and appoint him without any discussion. It comes from the Civil Service Commission, we take the top name and that is automatic without discussion he is appointed and I do not know of one case where the first name having been rejected the second or the . third name was accepted.

I do not know of one case and I know of no more than four cases in tventy-6ne years where the names were sent back to the Civil Service Commission asking for other recommend­ ations. In other words, Mr. Chairman, though it does not have to be so, we can _ keep on rejecting. They might send us names in a row, in succession and we reject them all of them, we have that right and we· do not have to accept the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission.

In actual fact with a possible four exceptions in twenty-one years, possibly four, I would say four at the maximum, it might have been two, three or one but not more than four cases in twenty-one years, we have appointed automatically the top name on the list. So you can say, practically speaking, that the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission becomes automatic though we do not have to do it.

We do not have to accept them, we can keep sending them back but what has never happened, not once has it ever happened namely that the Government appointed someone who had not been rec~mmended by the Civil Service Commission. That has never happened. not once, that is in cases where it·was their right and their duty to .ake the recommendati-on. 5229

·- J - - - - · ·~ · - ·-~r- - MR. SMALLWOOD: There are other appointments that the Premier of a Province has the right not only to select the men who will be his Mlnis~ers, the names that he will recOIIIDend to· .the Queen if he is living in England, or to the" Queen's Represent- ative if he is ~iving here, not only ha$ the Premier the right to decide which members of.the House he will invite into his Cabinet, not only has he that right but he has the right to decide who will be the Deputy Ministers.

That is just as important as deciding who shall be the Ministers and every Premier makes the choice, makes the decision, who shall be the Deputy Ministers. Now what happens normally is that the Minister comes to the Premier and says,'~at would you think of so and so for a Deputy Minister" and ninety-nine per-cent of the time the Premier says,"Well, if he is your choice, if he is the man you would like to have it is okay with me" but there have been one or two cases where ! have personally gone out and chosen the man to be Deputy Minister. There certainly would not be more than a dozen cases. I chose Mr.

Vardy to be Deputy Minister of Economic Development and before that I chose Arthur Johnson to be Deputy Minister of Economic Development. These were m~r personal choices as I thought of thea myself a~d brought their names . to Cabinet. I do not appoint them, the Cabinet appoints them, the Governor in Council appoints them but they do it on my recommendation. , That is two and I selected Mr. Murray to be Deputy Minister of Agriculture, he was my own personal choice.

I was watching him in the Department ~ he moved up and moved up and finally the vacancy occurred and I said, "There is the man" and I brought his name to Cabinet. That is three and there must have been others but I do not remember at the moment but there would not be more than a dozen. All other Deputy Ministers and Assistant Deputy Ministers I have selected upon the recommendation of the Ministers concerned. Then again Royal Commissions, the same thing, but naturally the Premier whoever he is takes advice.

Be takes advice from his colleagues in fact he may say in a meeting of the Cabinet, '~o would be good men to be members of a Royal Co.U.ssion o·1. such and such a subject, will you think about it gentlemen and let me have your suggestions?" This is the nc,rmal way of doing it. Workman Is ~011Pensation Board, the Public Utilities Collllltission, the Civil Service Commission, 5220

MR. 6MALLWOOD: the Metropolitan Commission, these various commissions, the Medica Care Commission and so on and normally it is the Premier who selects these but again equally normally the Premier asks the Minister concerned or all the Ministers if they are all concerned to make suggestions but the pTerogat~we- is the Premier's because if the Premier of a Province or the Premier of a whole country who has the prime responsibility for making recommendations to the Queen in case o~ England or to the Queen's Representative in the case of the Provinces or parts of the Commonwealth.

The Minister of Education reminds me that there has been occasions when instead of my selecting the Assi·stant Deputy Minister the matter has been referred to the Civil Service Commission for their recommendation and they have made recommendations and we have normally accepted their recommendations but -we are not required to do so. I thought I would add this note about the Civil Servi£e Commission, we are rather proud of it, we are rather proud that within the scope that is ~heir responsibility _ and their right they have functioned very well and without political interference.

If there has been political judgement, it has been the judgement I have exerci~ed as Premier in deciding who should be Deputy Minister or Associate or Assistant Deputy Minister and who shall be chairman and member of this, that or the other commission. That is a political judgement, I do not mean to say partisan political, it is a political judgement.

It·_is not an expert scientific sort of· judgement that you would expect from the Civil Service Commission, it is a sort of excathedra subjective personal judgement of the Premier and he has to make these personal judgements jaat as he makes the personal judgement when he decides the much more important thing of who shall be the Ministers and what portfolio shall each Minister occupy. That is the personal judgement or the political judgement of the Premier, not necessarily partisan politic;al but political in the broad sense of the vord. and so it is with these Commissions.

You try to keep various things into aeeount that the Civil Service Commission would not look at. You try to have it broadly representative, representative geographically, representative economically of economic classes. You do not want them all to be merchant princess, you do not want them all to be lawyers, you do not want them all to be merchants, you do 5231

MR. SMALLWOOD: not want them all to be this or that, you would like to have them occupationall; fairly representative and geographically you do ndt want them all townies. You would like wherever you can to get people from outside St. John's and the difficulty there being that if they cannot come and live in St. John's and there is the difficulty of their moving back and forth. Nevertheless you do try to get some geographical representation and you may even try to get the. politically representative.

You do not always pick liberals, you do not hold it against a aan that he is a liberal not if you are a liberal yourself. If you had a Tory Government they should not hold it against a prospective appointee that he is a Tory. It should never be held against a citizen that he is a Liberal or a Tory or a NDP, it should not be held against them as they have every right to be that. MR. WELLS: That works the other way too. MR. SMALLWOOD: Sometimes it does but it ought not but it ought not to be held against them. MR.

MURPHY: The party in power should not have the right to appoint exclusively following the normal pattern. MR. SMALLWOOD: They have the right but they ought not to use the right. MR. MURPH'B: Well, it is not moral then in my view. - MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, morally it would be stupid, it would be stupid to do it but I would say that we have a very good record in. that respect, a very good record indeed.

When I look around for men, we had a man whose name was mentioned here, Ron Fewer, and he is a man whose name is respected by every living person in Central Newfoundland, everyone that ever heard the name of Ron Fewer respects him as a man of integrity, a man of high honour. He is and there is no doubt of it and when he goes on the Civil Service Commission he will bring to that Commission not only a good recor~. a good name but an awful lot of common sense and he adds to the Commission by bringing that to it.

When Jack Robertson whe vas mayor of Gander and did indefatigable work as the bon. the member for Gander district who defeated him in the election would be the first I think to admit Jack Robertson ciid a magnificent job for that part of Central Newfoundland and he was a defeated candidate but Governments_ 5222

MR. SMALLWOOD: all over .the world appoint men to positions not withstanding the fact or maybe somett.es because of the fact but certainly not withstanding the fact that they were defeated. Is it a dishonour to a man to be defeated? "The bon • .ember for Gander West vas defeated in this district at least. once, maybe twice, .aybe the third time he was lucky. MR. MURPHY: He did not get a job on the Civil Service eo-ission. AN RON. MEMBER: He might some day. MR. SMALLWOOD: l_flly ·not? Why not?

Maybe he did not want a job, .aybe he vas not unemployed, maybe he wanted to stay where he waa, maybe be never uked, maybe he never showed any sign and do not think that I for one would reject a IUD •erely on the grounds that he was Tory. You know what they say, "Some of .y best friends are To~es." You know what they say when they want to start stabbing somebody in the back or cutting his throat,'~ou know some of·my,best friends are Catholics, some of my best friends are Negros, some of my best friends are Tories." I am not lumping them all together here now but the bon. gentleman knows what I mean.

I have personal friends who were Tories, .just as much Tory as I am Liberal and I would not hesitate to appoint them, to refuse to appoint a man merely, just alone on the grounds that he was a Tory. Far from it and I do not think for the same token I should reject a man because he is a Liberal. I do not think so as we have a right to be Liberal, we have a right to be Tory'· every man has a rigltt and every WOllen. I do not think it~n should be held against them. MR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I do not want to detain but I would like to just take the time to say what I have to say on this. ·Over and over again a charge has been made that if a person is an applicant to a post in the Government service and happens to be a Tory or an anti-Government coming fro. an anti-GoverD1181lt faaily he does not really have any chance. Now that charge has been lUCie and it bas been made even in this Bouse. It has been made by people who just do D()t know the facts to the matter and I am just going to name four and I can name, I aasure this Rouse, I can name a dozen without any effort at all.

When the man who is now Senator Hollett was Leader of the Opposition in this Boase his son was appointed to •n important job in the Civil Service in 523.3 )

HR. ROWE: Newfoundland. I will name five. When the President of the P.C. Pa~ was Mr. George Bicks of Grand Falls while he was in that post, not when he was here as Sergant-at-Aras. but when he was in that post his son applied and was given an important job in the Department of· Mines and Resources. When the late . . Mr. Higgens was the Leader of the Tory Party in Newfoundland his daughter . applied for and was appointed to an important post in the Civil Service of Newfoundland. When Mr •. Russell who was formerly on this side of the House and when he was a P.C.

Candidate running ~gainst the Liberal Aa.inistration in Newfoundland his daughter was given a job· in the Government Service. : As a .. tter of fact and I see no reason why I should not mention names the father of the most recently appointed Deputy Minister in Newfoundland for years.I a. told and I am sure rtry bon. friend from Gander can collaborate this, bas been on the executive of the P.C. Party in Central Newfoundland or _whatever Levisporte is called. HR. SMALLWOOD: The point is this I took them on my own· staff.

HR. 'ROWE: Precisely and the point I want to make is this that these people applied for jobs in competition with others and the Govera.ent at oo ti.e vas it ever taken into consideration and .I would hate for .y soa or daughter if I bad one to be penalized in any way because their father happeaed to be a partisan politican. One was penalized one time, one of ar sons who vas studying engineering vent to work aa .did at leaat forty others and got a job with a .

Gowern.ent Depart.ent with a survey party during the summer and a dirty letter, an aDOU)MDUA letter appeared subsequently in the paper accusing him of having taken a job of a .. D who bad always ·worked at that job and had seven children and it was a lie, a straight complete lie but it bad the effect among other things of making,' · '~ did DOII'·· do it, my son give up the job. Be gave up that job of summer work that he was as much entitled to as any of the other engineering students were or are and they are.

The engineering students at the University are given preference . and survey teams aad geology teams and forestry teams and ao on during the summer and be gave it up because of that dirty anonymous letter and perhaps he gave up engineering for it, I cllo not know but at least be gave it ap . any va,. HR. MURPIIY: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to let - 52ihl

Kay 28, 1970 Tape #H98 Page 1 HR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to delay the Committee very much longer. I think we have heard the statement that we have heard for many years about four or five Tories that have gotten jobs in the Civil Service. We have heard about the four or five. Basically, in wy opillion. it is•a waste of money, 1 mean nothing that has been said has changed my opinion on the function of this CiVil Service Commission. 1 feel it could be done far more adequately within the Civil Service by senior civil servants.

Now we have referred to the Premier appointing deputy ainisters add ministers, which is his prerogative. But I had a case there a few months ago, and 1 think everybody recalls an appointment to the Department of Natural Resources. I heard about it and I started questions. I phoned first of all the president of the N.G.E.A. and asked was the job bulletined, and he said not to his knowledge. Be said; ·~ou better contact the Minister of Natural Resources." I contacted the Minister of Natural Resources, he is not in his seat now.

I said, •;mo made the appointment and what is the salary'l" He said, "I have no idea, phone the deputy minister." 1 phoned two deputy ministers and they had no idea. I phoned the chairman of the Civil Service Commission, the late Mr. Courage, and he said, "Good God, Ank. the first time I saw it - I knew of it - I saw your announcement." Now this was not a deputy minister or anything else. There was no add in the paper. So I queried everybody md they said, "I cannot give you any information. The Premier is abroad, and when he comes back we might be able to establish. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am not abroad. MR.

MURPHY: Well you are not shot to pieces either. But this is the actual story. So we hear these great confessions you know how broadminded we are. You know I have heard tt for so many years, it is like water off a du~k's back. We always get a diversion - when we talk about something serious we always get a diversion. We know the Premier is not abroad. Be is present in the country, and I do not use any other vulgar expressions. 52~5

ID•. May 28, 1970 Tape #l=!M" Page 2 MR.. BARBOUR: I believe the bon. member has a Liberal streak in his · body sOMhov or other. Come over with us. Come over. MR. SMALLWOOD: After that inspiting meeting last night he is not coming over. He was inspired laat night. All eighty-four. MR. BARBOUI.: The bon. leader said Sir, that the reason there was a small crowd was because they had to attend other meetings. MR. MURPHY: I said no such thing. I said no such thing Mr. Chairman. If they want to discuss the meeting last night, we can go right in to the matter. .And it was not a colllll8nd performance.

We did not have a beer tavern owner there, or a r.oad contractor. No ·one depending on the Government for their livlihood. Everybody was there MR. NEARY: Why did you not get the Civil Service Commission? ~MURPHY: That could have been do~e. I am not talking about how fair or anything else the Civil Service Commission is. I have riot made any charge, and I would like to get this absolutely clear. I made no charge that the Civil Service Commission were favouring any particular applicant for a job. In my opinion it is purely ornamental.

It is costing $60,000 or more to this Province, where . in our Civil Service, where we have career civil servants who know far better than any group of people that you could bring in· tomorrow - what the Civil Service needs these are the .en in my opinion that· could. be formed. Assistant deputy minister senior ones that could form this Committee, and I have made the Motion that the vote be reduced to one dollar, and nothing I have heard has changed my mind as to the function of this Committee. It has been stated by my bon. friend for St. John's West, and morally, he is not quite as moral as I am oo thioga MR..

SMALLWOOD: Can the bon. gentleman find a more suitable vord than just that? MR~ MURPHY: than just friend? Mit. SMJ.LLWOOD: my ally and comrade in arms. 5236

May 28, 1970 IO• 11 Tape I~ PaRe 3 MR. MURPHY: Kr. Chairman, I think these gentlemen have done a tremendou~ job for us this year in bringing forward what we have been trying to do for twenty years. I think they have straightened it. They have been on the other side and they are familiar with a lot of things. Nov to get back Mr. Chairman, to my Motion. 1 move and 1 would like . the question put if no one else speaks, that this vote be reduced to one dollar. MR. CROSBIE: I agree with much the bon. the Premier said earlier, and 1 do not remember while I was in the Government either MR.

SMALLWOOD: I will take it all back. I am wrong. I am wrong. May 1 have my speech striken out? we MR. CROSBIE: I thought Mr. Chairman, if~took a new approach we might find a weak spot. We have now found a weak spot. All we have to do is agree with the Premier. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right and 1 am scared stiff. MR. CROSBIE: To be quite serious for a moment, even though I have to agree with the Premier in some of what he says.

I agree that when the Civil Service Commission makes three recommendations for a certain job, and it comes up to the department or goes to the Cabinet, that almost universally the one they recommend of the three is the top one gets the job etc., that