Manitoba Hansard — 15 May 1997 (Sitting 46B, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-46b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 46B -1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 15, 1997

MA NITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political AtlUiation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. - EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. - MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital p C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Portage Ia Prairie

2829 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 15, 1997 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chai rperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS National Forest Week Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I have a brief statement for the House, and I have copies. Madam Speaker , during the month of May, Manitobans and Canadians celebrate National Forest Week. Officially this year it was the week of May 4 to 10. As you see before you today, we have representative seedlings that are being presented to the MLAs in the House.

We have been celebrating National Forest Week for the past two weeks, frankly, and in this province National Forest Week is a program run by the Forestry Associa tion, and they have provided the white spruce seedlings that are in the House today. I am sure that all my colleagues in the Legisla ture will agree that we look forward to receiving a white spruce seedling each year. In fact, I know of some of the colleagues who have been here for a while who now have a nice row of spruce seedlings, some of them that are getting to be of a substantial size.

Forests, Madam Speaker, are to all Manitobans a very special symbol. National Forest Week is a special time for us to celebrate our forests, and I would like to congratulate the Manitoba Forestry Associa tion for its annual effort to remind us of the value of this resource. Madam Spea ker, there are two youth ambassadors who are part of the Youth Ambassador Program of the Tree Canada Foundation called Let's Root for Canada Program. Our youth ambassadors are part of a 24-member team, aged 16 to 19 , that will be participating in commu nity tree planting events across Canada from May 28 to July 3.

Eric Couture was selected by the Manitoba Forestry Associa tion to represent Manitoba to other parts of Canada. Alexis Knispel will host youth ambassadors from other parts of Canada when they visit our province on June 10. Tomorrow at 1 :30, Manitoba's youth ambassadors will be part of a planting ceremony to recognize 25 years of tree planting by the Scouts of Canada, Scout Trees for Canada Initiative will be recognized. The Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) will take

part in this planting which will occur adjacent to the Louis Riel statue to the south side of the buildings. This will initiate our commemoration of the I 25th anniversary of Arbor Day, a day to commemorate all the importance of all of our varieties of trees. I rise today for an opportunity for all of us to show our support to the efforts made in this direction. *

(1335) Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity as well today to rise and congratulate those in our province who are in any way, shape or form connected with the treeing of our province. I want to assure the minister that, although this is only the third time that I have been a recipient of one of these white spruces, each of them has been

2830 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 planted in my backyard, and I look forward to a whole row of white spruce trees to be planted in my backyard over the years to come. I want to also assure the Minister of Natural Resources that I will not turn them into my own private little wood lot, as maybe others might be thinking. I want to join in congratulating the Manitoba Forestry Association for bringing to our attention on an ongoing basis the importance of our forestry industry here in Manitoba.

I congratulate them on their idea of spreading the seedlings to people to be planted and to be grown from there. I, too, want to join with the minister in congratulating Eric and Alexis both on being chosen as youth ambassadors, and I wish them well in their endeavour in showing people from outside of our area the good things in Manitoba that can happen in the area of forestry, and I thank them for that job that they are doing on behalf of Manitobans. I also, too, want to join in congratulating the Scouts of Canada with their program, Trees for Canada.

I think that is a very worthwhile job that they are doing, not only in getting valuable trees planted that we know are so important for our ecosystem to be healthy but also to raise the awareness of the importance of trees and the forestry industry in our province. So, Madam Speaker, with those words, I thank the minister for my seedling of white spruce and thank him for bringing this to the attention of the House.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon eighteen Grade 6 students from Crystal City Elementary School under the direction ofMr. Larry Hamilton. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed). Also, thirty-five Grade 5 students from Victoria Albert School under the direction of Mrs. Karen Boyd. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

Also, 25 first-year journalism students from Red River Community College under the direction of Mr. Donald Benham. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mani toba Water Commission Public Hearings Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

The First Minister has announced the re-formation of the Manitoba Water Commission to deal with the tremendously positive work that was conducted on behalf of Manitobans during the recent flood crisis and the continuing flood crisis and some of the concerns of a negative nature or concerns about action that was taken that resulted in flooding in various communities and how that happened.

A number of people that have talked to us are concerned, as you know, as we have raised before, about the cutting of roads and other blockage of drainage ditches and other measures, and they want to have an opportunity to present their views directly to the commission that the Premier has announced. We note today that the Premier has stated that this commission will determine whether public hearings will take place. I would like to ask the Premier today: Will he ensure that the people that have these concerns, the farmers in the Sanford area, the residents of Ste.

Agathe, the people in Grande Pointe and other residents that have these concerns, Rosenort, will have the opportunity guaranteed to present their views in a public hearing process to this commission established by the government? * (1 340) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, because this is an arm's-length commission, I do not think I could order them to do anything. However, it would be my intention to recommend to them that they do have open public hearings to hear the concerns of people expressed. - -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 283 1 Mr. Doer: recommendation. thank the Premier for that Flood Forecasting Staff Reductions Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, on a related topic dealing with floods, it has been announced or suggested that the Prime Minister of Canada will be visiting Manitoba shortly to deal with-the headline said spreading of cash-but I know he will be dealing apparently with all kinds of issues related to compensation, prevention and other measures that are crucial to Manitobans at this time.

The Premier has travelled with the Prime Minister and been with him during this crisis. Of course, Manitobans are concerned about the cutback of the federal government on the flood forecasting staff; some 70 percent are projected to be cut back. Did the Premier raise this with the Prime Minister, and can he inform us of any response we received from the Prime Minister? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have not been in communication with the Prime Minister during the course of the election campaign.

The member may recall that he was here a day or so before the election campaign, 24 hours or so before the election campaign, and I do not believe that the issue of the federal cutbacks in staff was an issue at that time. In fact, I recall that it came up a little later, so I did not have the opportunity at that time to address the issue with him. I certainly will if I have occasion to be with him during the course of the next little while. Mr.

Doer: The federal lead minister for Manitoba has stated that he will be raising this issue of the cutbacks that are to take place in August 19 97 with the federal government. Larry Whitney has stated that this is of great concern to Manitobans in terms of our ability to deal with future floods if these cutbacks take place. In a press release issued by the federal lead minister on May 5, when he announced the IJC consultations, he indicated that he was in contact with the Prime Minister on a daily basis. I would like to ask the Premier: Has he disc ussed this matter with Lloyd Axworthy?

Has Lloyd Axworthy discussed this matter with the Prime Minister, and can we expect a reversal of a terrible decision to cut back on flood forecasting by the federal government in the Red River Valley? Mr. Filmon: Well, Madam Speaker, the issue, of course, if it is a concern to Larry Whitney, I think it should be a concern to all Manitobans. I can only indicate that I have not had much contact with Mr. Axworthy because of the pressures that we have been under with respect to all of the matters that we have had to address with the flood, and he of course has been in an election campaign.

I did hear the same media comment that the member opposite references, and I have already indicated that I am prepared to take that matter up with the Prime Minister. Flooding Ste. Agathe Hon. Gary Film on (Premier): While I am on my feet, and I do think that this follows right along the course of questions that the member is asking. Yesterday he raised the issue of the cuts to the A vonlea Road and their possible implications on the flooding of Ste. Agathe.

If I may, I would like to hand some maps to the member for his use and those of his members, and ifl may briefly just go through an explanation of what did in fact happen in that area and what did ensue. On April 28, 19 97, Avonlea Road which runs one mile north ofPR 305 was cut at two points just east of the floodway west dike in

Section 22-7-2E. This location is about three miles west and a mile and a half north of Ste. Agathe. A cut was also made in the northeast

Section 22-7-2E about a half mile south of the other cut. The cuts were made to reduce pressure and erosion on the west dike located nearby. The cuts were 50 to I 00 feet long and would have allowed a flow of about I ,000 cubic feet per second through the road. The important thing, and if the member can follow on the map, is that these cuts were already north of Ste. Agathe and the flow, both observed by the engineers for Manitoba Highways and for the Natural Resources department as well as myself personally when I was flying over it, was in a northeasterly direction, and in between the area of the cuts and Ste.

Agathe is a height of land which would have prevented the water from flowing toward Ste. Agathe, so it is highly unlikely that it had any impact on Ste. Agathe. In fact, any extra water flowing northeast in the vicinity of the cut would cause lower water levels in the area south of PR 305 and would thus reduce flows across the railway into

2832 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 Ste. Agathe. The road cuts would therefore have served to reduce water levels in Ste. Agathe rather than raise levels, according to the engineering assessment. * (1 345) Grace Hospital Obstetrical Services Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): In the past several years it has been clear that the government has been attempting to consolidate services like obstetrics and other services at certain particular facilities.

At one time they called it centres of excellence, then they changed the nomenclature, but the intent of this government has been to cut programs, to consolidate and to cut funding. Since the real reason that the Grace obstetrics might be closed is because the government is cutting $100 million out of hospital budgets in Winnipeg over a three-year period, I find it deplorable that the minister would shirk off responsibility on its soon-to-be-named but yet-no-legal-authority regional board.

Will the minister outline what the government position is with respect to the possible closure of obstetrics at Grace Hospital, Madam Speaker? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I find it very disconcerting that the member for Kildonan would base the quality or the need of health care hospital services in the city of Winnipeg, or anywhere for that matter, strictly on the matter of how much we are funding or how many beds available whether they are needed or not. The number of births in the province ofManitoba.

I think, in total, if memory serves me correctly, is somewhere around 17 ,000 a year, ofwhich 12 ,000 are in the city of Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, hosts of changes in the way that deliveries take place, the practice around that, even the creation of The Midwifery Act and alternative means or places for delivery of babies are going to have a resulting change in hospital services. The Grace Hospital board of directors, for a variety of reasons, one of which is that the number of births have declined to just over a thousand a year at that particular facility, has recommended it be closed.

We have asked that that not happen until the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has a chance to sort out and make decisions about a plan that they want to implement for the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why the government spent thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to one of the foremost experts in obstetrics, Dr. Manning, who released a report, who in his very report recommended that Grace Hospital remain open? Why did we do that? Why did we have a report by an expert who went in not wanting to keep Grace open but in fact recommended it stay open?

Why did we do that and now the government for really financial reasons is changing that recommendation? Mr. Praznik: The former Minister of Health points out to me that the member is not quite accurate again, that that in fact was his third choice in his report, but the question here is the needs in obstetric care are changing. They will continue to change, and a proper plan, for the meantime, of developing obstetric services within the city of Winnipeg is very important. I share with him, as well, some concerns that have been expressed about consolidating all of that service in just teaching hospitals.

We recognize that there are other components, but the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, the first tranche of board appointments have been made. Their CEO is in place. They are getting up and running. We as a ministry, because we deal with funding for those facilities today, do not want decisions made until the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has had an opportunity to assess and make some of their own decisions in their planning. That is part of this interim year. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why they are reaching a decision and putting it on a board that is not even in place and has no legal authority and in light of the fact that the Manning report says on page 70, and I will quote: The model that the government is doing to close Grace is not supported by either obstetricians or pediatricians. Madam Speaker, their own report recommends against it. Yet the minister is going ahead with it and sending it onto some board that is not even existent and has no legal authority. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I think the member for Kildonan is somewhat confused about position. The board of directors of the Concordia Hospital-and let us remember that under the faith agreement those facilities -

May 15, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2833 very strongly believe in governance and decision making-have made a recommendation to close that facility in June, that particular service. The Ministry of Hea lth is involved in that, as in our responsibilities.

When it was brought to my attention, I felt that is not the time-that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, who we have charged, are in the process of charging in this transition year with the responsibility for making those decisions on a city-wide basis, have a chance before a final decision is made to have the opportunity to review and look at the vision of how they intend to deliver obstetrics in the city of Winnipeg. In fact, I have asked for some time to take place so that kind of work can go on. *

(1350) Provincial Parks Camping Reservation Fees Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, this coming long weekend, Manitobans will be again hit by drastic increases in park fees introduced by this government last year. Even while this government increases its own rainy day fund by hundreds of millions of dollars, it turns and it squeezes money out of campers who are looking for seasona l reservations and paying reservation fees that are 100 percent increased. They have doubled.

Why is this government doubling reservation fees, on top of all the increased fees introduced last year, on the backs of average Manitoba campers? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Spea ker, we should remember that, as we dedicate as many dollars as we can make available, put as much effort as possible into improving the quality of the service and the experience available to the campers, we are in fact moving more and more to a model that allows us to recover more of our costs.

In improving the reservation system, the member should remember that the old system had a fee charge, plus the callers had to pay their own long distance. Under the new program, all callers will be able to access it toll free. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, yesterday it was confirmed that the fees were going toward the contracting of a company known as Destinet. It turns out that this company is not actually based in Ontario, but it is based in California.

Why has this government got a contract with a California-based company, a company that is more accustomed to taking reservations for California state parks, not Manitoba provincial parks? Mr. Cummings: Madam Spea ker, the member conveniently forgets that, in a tendering process, those who can provide the best service and are going to establish themselves in this province as a new service-the member chooses to ignore that aspect and simply wants to point out that this province is now going to receive an additional company operating right here in Manitoba. Mr.

Struthers: Will the minister indicate whether the increase in fees is to pay for this contract, and will he table this contract of this California company here in the Legislature so we can all see what this contract says? Mr. Cummings: Madam Spea ker, the project to provide reservation services for campsites in this province was a tendered proposal. All of the competitive bidding aspects were respected, including, in this case, the company is going to establish here in Manitoba to provide this service.

So not only do we get an improved service for our campsites, we get improved accessibility, we get more campsites listed. We now also have the opportunity to have more jobs in this province. Salaries/Wages Reductions Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Data from Sta tistics Canada show that real average weekly earnings in the province of Manitoba, that is, after inflation has been taken into account, have declined by 4 percent since this government was first elected in 1988.

This situation is not being helped by the current pattern seen in the first four months of this year where Manitoba lost 7,200 jobs in the higher paying sectors such as transportation, communic ations and utilities.

2834 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , I9 97 Will the minister acknowledge that average Manitobans are now earning less in real tenns in I9 96 than in I9 88? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, no, I will not acknowledge that. I think what the member for Brandon East forgets to look at is after tax income. The most recent sta tistics from Statistics Canada for after-tax income are for the year I9 95. In fact, they just released that infonnation some two weeks ago.

It shows that, for Manitoba, a Manitoba family, the after-tax income in 19 95 grew by 4.5 percent, more than double the Canadian growth rate and the second best perfonnance in all of Canada. The reason for that is because this province has had 1 0 straight years with no growth in any personal income tax or other major taxes in our province. Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question: The minister can select the statistics all he likes, but can he explain why the Canadian real average of weekly earnings, that is, after inflation, has increased by 2.

I percent between I9 88 and I9 96, while Manitobans have suffered a decline of 4 percent? Why are we going against the Canadian trend? * (1 355) Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, this is a common problem with the NDP. They never look at the issue after taxes, and that is probably the reason that they increased taxes more than any other government in Canada from 19 81 to I9 88: they did not realize what matters to Manitobans is what is left in their pockets after they have to pay the taxes.

That is the importance of going I 0 straight years without increasing taxes in Manitoba, in fact act ually reducing personal income taxes in Manitoba back in 19 89. Today, for the benefit of the member for Brandon East, if you look at family incomes in Canada, Manitoba has the fourth highest family income in all of Canada. Those are the facts, and that is what is of benefit to Manitobans. Mr.

Leonard Evans: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker: The Minister of Finance conveniently ignores all those extra fees and charges that he has put on the people of Manitoba: nursing home rates, Pharmacare cost increases, elimination of property tax credits, increasing park fees, et cetera. Will the minister acknowledge that the relative wage position-and I am talking about the relative wage position within Canada-has deteriorated in this same period? We went from 91. 6 percent of the Canadian average in I9 88, and we are down to 86.2 percent in I9 96.

The latest data for I9 97 places Manitoba nine out of I 0 provinces, only after Newfoundland, in tenns of wage increases. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, what I wiii acknowledge is that we have taken Manitoba from the highest-taxed province in all of Canada under the NDP back in 19 87 to one of the lowest-taxed provinces in all of Canada today. That is what matters to Manitobans. I do not know why members opposite have so much difficulty comprehending and understanding.

What matters at the end of the day is what Manitobans have left in their pockets, and that is where Manitoba has made huge improvements over the last 10 years. If you look at overall taxes in Manitoba over that I 0-year period, they are actually down. That is the best tax perfonnance of any province in all of Canada, probably the best tax perfonnance anywhere in the world. Manitobans understand that; I just hope sooner or later members opposit e start to appreciate and understand that. Grace Hospital Obstetrical Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

The centralization of obstetr ics is a bad idea for the province of Manitoba. in particular for the city of Winnipeg. What I would like to be able to do is to quote the fonner minister, Don Orchard, when we posed a quest ion. His comments were: I have to tell my honourable friend, the Liberal Health critic, who is into rumour, innuendo and false conclusions, that this government has no intention of closing obstetrics in the Grace Hospit al. Madam Speaker, not to be outdone by that fonner minister, to quote from a letter from the previous minister, Minister McCrae, July 13, '95, and I would table the letter.

My question to the Minister of Health is: Can he explain what has happened in the last few -

May 15, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2835 months that would change this particular letter in which the former minister stated: Regarding the delivery of obstetr ical services in Winnipeg, this will confirm the Grace General Hospital will continue to be a site of delivery of obstetr ical care? What has changed? Why is this government supporting the Grace Hospital losing obstetr ics? Ron.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have seen many members talk out of two sides of their mouths, and now the member for Inkster gets into that, because just a few weeks ago, before the flood, in this Chamber, he would come to this House and talk about the need not to centralize, how terrible the Winnipeg Hosp ital Authority was, we need the independent facilities to make decisions, so here now, when one of those facilities passes a resolution to close their facility, he comes here and he says: This is terrible; it is all your fault, Mr. Minister.

I recognize the fundamental point, that in a city of 650,000 people plus the hundreds of other thousands who use this city for a variety of their services, it is necessary to have a co-ordinated approach to delivering services. That is why we have created the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. I can tell the member that we have, since that resolution, asked the Grace Hospital not to proceed with that decision until they have had an opportunity to work with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority for the overall city plan. We have asked that, Madam Speaker.

He should be speaking with the board of Grace if he wishes to criticize their decisions. *

(1400) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that Don Orchard, in his Action Plan, the former minister, Minister McCrae, were right in the letter dated July 13, 19 95, that we should not be closing down the obstetr ics unit, and this minister has to take responsibility for that. Follow the Action Plan. Think in terms of the broader picture of obstetr ics in the province of Manitoba. This is a bad idea.

Tell the Salvation Army and the community health board that this is a program that is worthwhile saving at the Grace Hos pital and that this government will not accept the closure of it. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the fire and fury of the member for Inkster, he should perhaps go down and visit with the board of directors at the Grace Hospital, because just a few weeks ago in this Chamber he was defending their autonomous right to govern their facilities. He was defending the autonomous right of a variety of facilities. So if you want that kind of system, then live with the result.

The reality in the city of Winnipeg today is we are moving toward a centralized system with the Winnipeg Hospita l Authority. Obviously the Ministry of Health does have a role in working closely. We have been in touch with the administration of the Grace since their board passed that resolution, and we have asked them to put that on hold until the new Winnipeg Hospital Authority, which has now been appointed, has an opportunity to review and make their determination as to what is best to deliver obstetr ics programs based on all of the work and studies that have been done in the past.

That is what is going to happen. Mr. Lamoureux: Is it now the government's policy not to follow recommendations set forth from this government's Action Plan that states that you want to increase services in our community health facilities? This is an area which we should be seeing expanding. Obstetrics should even be brought in to the Seven Oaks Hospital. We should not be seeing reductions. Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that or at least have the guts to say that he has thrown the Action Plan into the garbage can? Mr.

Praznik: There is no doubt that, in the delivery of a whole host of health programs and medical programs, that technology, demographics, a host of factors will continually result in changing in that program. What is critical for us as legislators, who are responsible ultimately to the taxpayers and people of this province, is that we have a mechanism and system of delivery that can adapt to changing need. From time to time that is going to result in shifts of programming. In credit to the board of the Grace, one real problem that they have is that the numbers of births has fallen to just over a thousand.

So there is a real issue there of

2836 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 whether or not that particular facility has enough births to justify where they are being. Those kinds of issues I want the Winnipeg Hosp ital Authority, on a system wide basis, to work out and see what is best to deliver programming for 12,000 births in the city of Winnipeg. What is ultimately important here is patient care, getting the best mix of services. I am not going to prejudge that today, but my responsibility is to set in place the system and structure that will make rational decisions, not political ones.

Investment Multilateral Agreement Status Report Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I took a question yesterday as notice from the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It was dealing with the proposed trade agreement on multilateral agreement on investment. An Honourable Member: That was Crescentwood. Mr. Downey: Crescentwood, I am sorry. Elmwood, he has kind of been a fixation. Let me make a correction, Madam Speaker. I have taken questions for the last two weeks from the member for Elmwood.

There may have been a misunderstanding in the questioning of the department when we were in Estimates. I can tell the member that there was a receipt of an early, early draft by the department- An Honourable Member: Early, early. Mr. Downey: An early draft-by the department on multilateral agreement on investment. There has been a copy received by the department, but as far as negotiations are concerned, to my knowledge there have not been any and they have been delayed, but we have received a copy of the early draft of that potential agreement. Impact on Manitoba Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): appreciate the minister's response to that question. Madam Speaker, under that draft agreement, would the minister confirm that the sale of Manitoba HydroBonds, preferentially to Manitobans to fund that utility's capital expenses, would be essentially impossible under this new treaty? Would he confirm that? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, I will not confirm that, Madam Speaker, because it is so early in the negotiations.

The Governme nt of Canada have not entered into the agreement and there is no assessment at this particular time as to how it would in fact impact on the provinces. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that this is a very, very well-detailed draft and in fact is quite advanced and that under this draft most requirements now imposed by government, for example, in regard to the use of local labour or the sourcing of goods and services from Manitoba, as opposed to other jurisdictions, would not be allowed, would in fact be quite illegal? Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, my previous answer holds. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker. will the minister finally get up to speed with something that is going to affect the very basic policies of his government, and any future government, and that government's ability to make economic decisions within our sovereign rights m regard to the direction of our provincial economy? Mr. Downey: Yes, I wilL Madam Speaker, because at this particu lar point, it is very hypothetical whether in fact it will proceed or advance at all or not. If that were to actu ally take place. we will be fully up to speed. Post-Secondar y Education Tuition Fees Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my colleague for Brandon East has demonstrated the low wage economy that this government is creating, low wages which must now take account of hundreds of dollars of user fees in public schools, huge increases in university and post-seconda ry fees, Pharmacare fees, home care fees, and the list increases. The other side of this is the low-skill economy that will be the long-term effect of the declining post-seco ndary enrollments

May 15, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 2837 which in some institutions are averaging 5 percent a year. l would like the Minister of Education to inform the House what part th� 20 percent increase in fees of the past three years, and the government's delay of 12 months of their election promise of a tax credit has played in the drop in enrollments in post-seconda ry education in Manitoba. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I hope the member will take a chance today to read the Free Press and read the

article that indicates the very high level of skills being noticed by people employing graduates of our Manitoba system. Just maybe that is something that she might like to bring to the House and ask some questions about at another time. I indicate that the tuition fees in Manitoba are the third best in the country for students, third lowest. I indicate there are so many vehicles for access to university here that make it a very attractive place to take post-secon dary education. The 12.5 percent decrease over the last three years in universities is reflected in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons.

First of all, there are more jobs available for people, and we know, stat istically speaking-the member knows this; she is a historian-that whenever there is a large opportunity for employment, the enrollment in post secondary institutions goes down and vice versa. We have increased enrollment in colleges and, Madam Speaker, we also have the 1 0 percent learning tax credit where students can get back 10 percent of their tuition. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Spea ker, could the minister explain why, since 19 88, the government has had no long-term plan to deal with student fees, no public input into the deliberations of the committee on fees she finally did appoint and no report after 18 months from that committee? Meanwhile, fees escalate and access to post-secondary education becomes more unequal for Manitobans. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, there is right now before the Council on Post-Second ary Education a report done by a committee of people appointed by this ministry to develop a tuition fee policy.

That recommendation is now with the Council on Post- Seco ndary Education for consi deration and implementation. I also indicate that under this government we have in the last session of the Legislature increased the student representation on the board of governors at the University of Manitoba, for example, to 26 percent of the board, the largest student representation in the country. That board decides tuition fees. They now have a quarter of the board to give input to that decision, and the other universities will be brought to the 25 percent as well.

Madam Speaker, that along with our learning tax credit wherein 10 percent can be returned to students of their tuition fee and our Access programs which continue to have a higher intake every year, I think, gives us tremendously good access to post-seconda ry learning in this province. *

(1410) Post-Secondary Education Council Report Tabling Request Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Could the minister agree to table the report that she says has been placed before the post-secondary education council? Eighteen months ago that committee was established. There has been no public report from that. It is an issue of serious concern to those low-wage Manitoba ns, in particular, who must pay these increased fees. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): It would have been awfully nice when my daughter was in university in the '80s had the NDP government at that time gone so far as to look at a tuition fee policy and done some things to help the students out then. They never did. We have. The com mittee was struck, as the member correctly indicates, last year. The committee has done its initial report which is now before the Council on Post Secondary Education for study. That is more than they ever did on the other side.

That committee had on it student representation: David Gratzer from the University of Manitoba, University of Manitoba Student Union president; and, as well, a president from one of the rural community colleges, and it is an internal recommendation right now to the council. They will be dealing with it and be

2838 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 reporting back to me, as a formal report to me then, and they will be making a decision on that in terms of what parameters to set. I really think that the members opposite, instead of sort of heckling negative things, should be pleased at the progress that is finally being made in this area in this province. Man Globe Partnership Agreement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier and concerns the competence of this minister.

While the provincial and federal governments were writing cheques to ManGlobe, a long list of creditors, including Revenue Canada owed $46,000 and GST owed $1 8,000, were chasing the ManGiobe president for payment of outstanding debts. According to the unanimous shareholders' agreement, the ManGlobe president placed her 30 percent of the shares in the De Leeuw family trust to protect them from creditors. When will this government start approving grants based on merit and stop rewarding political friends? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated previously and will indicate again today, the provincial government's involvement was in relationship to an agreement which is between ManGiobe and the Province of Manitoba, and the terms of the agreement were met. Mr. Maloway: Would the Deputy Premier tell this House what the approval process was for grants under the Canada-Manitoba Communications Agreement, and who represented the federal government and who represented Manitoba? Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I believe that it was Mr.

Steven Leahey within the department of telecommunications that was involved as far as the Department of Industry, Trade· and Tourism was concerned. I do not exactly know who was involved from the federal government, but I can take that question as notice. As I said previously and I will say again today, there had to be certain conditions met, involvement of other participants, and they were the Royal Bank, Canada Post and Manitoba Telephone System, to name three. Provincial Sales Tax Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this: Will the minister check with his coll eague the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and tell this House if any PST was owed by the ManGiobe president when the grants were made to ManGiobe? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Yes, Madam Spea ker. Manitoba Law Reform Commission Elder Abuse Study Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): When we last asked the minister how the government could justify eliminating the Manitoba Law Reform Commissio n, when the Conservatives screamed so loudly when the Pawley government made changes and when the Conse rvatives campaigned for an independent commissio n, he replied that the government wanted the money for, and I quote: public safety and community issues.

My question to the minister is: Would he admit that, by killing the Law Reform Commissio n, a major commission project to deal with the sco urge of elder abuse has also now been killed, and does he agree that, when he talks of public safety, seniors are part of the public? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I certainly agree that seniors are members of the public and certainly a concern of ours.

If there is any work that is left unfinished by the Manitoba Law Reform Commissio n, or if indeed another body might take over that work, we will endeavour to ensure that the interests of seniors are met in the overall strategy of justice issues in this province. Termination Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister acknowledge that the government's destruction of our Law Reform Commission which provides independent reviews and recommendations, this -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2839 destruction was planned without any consu ltation with the commissioners, with the staff, with the community, options that could have seen the Law Reform Commission continue? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The issues that were before this government, in terms of trying to decide what would be a more appropriate expenditure of resources, were weighed in favour of issues of public safety.

While we certainly value the past contributions of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, we believe that there are other or alternative ways of achieving satisfactory input in respect of the process of law making. So we want to continue to explore those other avenues and certainly do not in any way belittle the past contributions, the very important contributions that the Law Reform Commission has made. In the future we will attempt, and discussions are continuing, to ensure that the practice of law reform, of law review is carried out in an appropriate and satisfactory manner in this province.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has notice of one hour is required. The notice from the honourable member for Inkster was received in my office at 10 a.m., and the House met today at I 0 a.m. Because the procedural requirement was not met, I must therefore rule the member's motion out of order. *

(1420) Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I know that, given the circumstances of negotiations between all parties in this Chamber, as a result of those negotiations, we had made special exception to allow us to sit this morning. I do believe very firmly that members of this Chamber, at least very firmly that the official opposition would be supportive of allowing this particular explanation of the matter of importance, given the special circumstances surrounding the flooding and how we are trying to compensate for some lost time.

I guess I would appeal to the government to allow for us at least to explain why it is we should be able to have this particular urgent matter debated. expired. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Community Obstetrics Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I would move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), that under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the community obstetr ics posed by this government.

Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Inkster, seconded by the honourable member for St. Boniface, that under Rule 27 the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to community obstetr ics posed by this government. Regrettably, I must advise the honourable member for Inkster that procedurally his motion is out of order on the basis of our Rule 27.(1) because the required notice was not provided. The rule states that prior Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, even if one were to ignore altogether the lack of time limits, and by that I mean the techni cal requirement of our rules to provide notice within an hour of the sitting of the House, even if the honourable member had satisfied that requirement, and I really do not have that big of a problem with that aspect of it, but the honourable member's motion here fails on the more substantive and less technical aspects of his application here in the House today.

So we do not place a lot of weight on the problem, on the failure of the honourable member to meet the technica l requirements, because I agree, because of circumstances prevailing in Manitoba right now, members in all of the parties have been extremely co operative-for which I thank them all-at a very difficult time in Manitoba's history, to allow for the Legislature to continue working under very, very difficult circumstances. You, Madam Speaker, would know as well as or better than most how difficult the circumstances have been.

So we do not rest our case on the timeliness part of it, although I understand why

2840 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 that is a fatal flaw in the application here today. The issue we would argue on would have to do with the substantive nature of the motion itself, which has to do with obstetrics at Grace General Hospit al. Madam Speaker, this matter has been the subject of discussion for years in Manitoba. There is nothing magical that happened yesterday or the day before, and nothing magical is going to happen tomorrow.

This is an extremely important matter-o bstetric services in the city of Winnipeg-and so due deliberation is required and remains to be done before final determinations are made. The honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) is in the process of completing appointments to the Winnipeg Health Authority- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable government House leader that we are not and should not be debating whether the motion meets the criterion for all other business to be set aside. What I believe the honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) was requesting was if there was support to disregard the fact that the motion is procedurally out of order because it did not meet the time requirements as expressed in our Rule 27 .(I ). The honourable member for Burrows, to speak to the procedural issue. Mr. Doug Martindale (Deputy Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order as the member for Inkster, we believe that, since numerous rules have been set aside in the last several weeks, we are willing to give leave to have this matter of urgent public importance debated, and we hope that all parties in the House will give leave to debate it.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on that same point of order. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I agree with the honourable member that there ought to be a discussion of this matter, but certainly under the rule for emergent debate, no. The Estimates of the Department of Health are about to come on. Last year we spent about 54 hours on Health. There is all kinds oftime available to the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) to raise these issues in the Estimates. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Is there leave to waive the procedural requirement that was not met under Rule 27 .(I) ?

Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Speaker: No. Leave has been denied. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENT International Day of the Family Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, may I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for La Verendrye have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Sveinson: I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the International Day of the Family. Families perform the most important function in our society.

Their work is caring, nurturing, guiding, and promoting tolerance and acceptance is the template that is carried into all areas of living. As we all know, families come in many diverse sizes and shapes. Our first families, particularly within the aboriginal community, extended beyond the parental unit. Earlier settlers of Manitoba often left behind their extended family. Madam Speaker, the toll of two world wars led to a rise in the number of single-parent families. The last 20 years have been marked by incredible changes in our world.

We have seen a return of women to the workplace which has generated new levels of family income. Also, global communications and modern air travel have meant that we can see our families who live far away much more frequently. Despite changes imposed by modern society, the family still remains the foundation of our community. Madam Speaker, Manitobans have a very strong sense of family. As we have seen in the last several weeks, Manitoba families came together in unprecedented numbers, families helping other families in sandbagging, providing shelter, providing food and providing support. - -

... May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 284 1 Today, I would encourage all Manitobans to remember just how important families really are. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Lead er): Madam Speaker, discussions with House leaders are ongoing with respect to the business for next week, and it is early for us to make any announcements in that regard. So I would say to honourable members that I expect on Tuesday of next week to be able to announce the arrangements for next week.

However, should something arise later today that mi ght require announcement in the House, I will alert the presiding of ficer or officers at that time. So, for the time being, I would make my motion to move the House into Commit tee of the Whole. I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine) : Order, please.

Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply will be meeting in Room 254. We will resume consideration of the Estima tes of the Department of Labour. When the commit tee last sat, it was considering on page 10 0, the item 11 .2(

c) Conciliation, Mediation and Pay Equity Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4 1 7,500. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, was it 2.(

b) that you mentioned that we were on? Mr. Chairp erson: 11 .2.(c). Conciliation, Mediation and Pay Equity Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4 1 7,500. Mr. Reid: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I want to ask the minister, are there any vacancies in this subdepartment? * (1 440) Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour) : I am informed that the director has just recently retired and that the position wih be filled in not too many months hence. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me who the director was, ref resh my memo ry on that person that was involved? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, it is the person we all spoke so highly of yesterday, Mr. Jim Davage. Mr. Reid: Sorry that it escaped my mem ory that he was in charge.

I thought that perhaps there was another individual that was directly responsible for that. Yes, I do recall Mr. Davage and his role that he played with some of the strikes and lockouts in the province. Can the minister tell me, talking about strikes and lockouts, how many days have been lost? Does he have a record of the days lost to strike and lockout over the course of the last year? Mr. Gillesham mer : Just for clarification, you are asking about the budget year 19 96-97? Mr. Reid: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I am asking for that. Mr.

Gilleshamme r: The information I have before me is based on a calendar year, but probably it will suit the member okay. If not, I know that he will feel compelled to ask a further question. But the summa ry of 19 96, from January 1, '96, to December 31, '96, there were 22 work stoppages in Manitoba affecting some 7,275 workers. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me if some of these work stoppages are still ongoing? From my understanding there are still some issues in dispute on some of the firms in the province.

Can the minister tell me the status of those disputes and what role Conciliation, Mediation is playing to try and resolve them?

2842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 Mr. Gilleshammer: I am infonned that at the current time there is one work stoppage in the province. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me which finn that is and what efforts his department is making to try and resolve it? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, it is a finn that is called Gateway Paper. I could stand to be corrected, but it is my understanding that there are two individuals there that are currently on strike. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me when that work stoppage occurred? Mr.

Gilleshamme r: My understanding is it has been going on for about two years, April 30, I995. So today I am infonned that is the only work stoppage that is occurring within the province of Manitoba. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, is there Conciliation, Mediation Services that are involved to try and resolve, and can the minister tell me what the outstanding issues are? Mr. Gilleshammer: The department, through the Conciliation, Mediation Services were involved in the earlier part of this dispute.

There has been no involvement in recent months; and as to the outstanding issues, we do not have that infonnation here at this time. Mr. Reid: So then I take it that there has been no further actions on the part of this branch to try and resolve the dispute other than what you had made in your earlier attempts. Is that accurate? You have essentially washed your hands of this situation? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that the vast majority of the workers have returned to work and, as a result, the work stoppage has been largely dissolved. Mr.

Reid: So the criteria here is that you quit stopping if there is not suf ficient people on strike, even though the strike is still legally occurring. The department ju st essentially washes its hands of it because people have returned to work and crossed the picket line. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not sure that I would characterize it in the manner that my honourable friend does. The department, as I had indicated, had been involved at an earlier stage.

The disagreement has not been resolved, but I am told that numerous conciliation meetings were held with the parties, none recently, and I am told probably over 20 employees have returned to work and two have not. I think it is fair to say that if there was a role to be played that our staff would offer their services. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, does he have historical comparisons available to him here today for the number of days lost to strike and lockout work stoppages? Does he have that historical comparison available? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I am sure we have some data.

I do not know just how much detail my honourable friend wants, how many years he would like us to go back. Mr. Reid: Ten years is fine. Mr. Gilleshammer: Ten years. Would you like me to go back I 0 consecutive years or do you want me to pick selective years? The department has given me some comprehensive infonnation here dating back to 19 01. I can read it all into the record if my honourable friend would like, or perhaps I could just start with last year and go backwards and whenever you want me to stop you can indicate that. In 19 96, there were 22 disputes and involved 7,275 workers.

The previous year to that, 19 95, there were 12 work stoppages involving 2, I 06 workers. In 19 94, there were six work stoppages with I ,205 individuals involved. In 19 93, there were eight work stoppages with I, I96. In 19 92, there were seven work stoppages with 319 employees. In I99I, there were I 0 work stoppages with I 0, 726 workers involved-that was I99I; I 0 work stoppages involved I 0, 726 workers.

In I990, there were six work stoppages, 347 individuals involved; in I989, six work stoppages involving 22 I; in I988, II work stoppages with I ,352; in I987, I 0 work stoppages involving 3, 025 workers. [interjection] Those then are the figures for the last I 0 years. Mr. Reid: Could the minister repeat I992 for me, please? I missed writing that.

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2843 * (1 450) Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can. There were seven work stoppages and 319 workers. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, because it is my understanding that there is a potential serious situation that could occur, I think it is HBM&S, in Flin Flon, whether the parties are in some dispute at this time? Is the department playing a role in trying to resolve that issue to prevent any work stoppage? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Yes, I can say that we are taking a role, but I would hasten to inform my honourable friend that this is an issue under federal ju risdiction and the federal Minister of Labour and federal staff have been involved. We have a situation there where I believe six or seven unions have resolved and settled their contracts, and the total work complement in that area is ju st a little over 2,000 people. One of the unions consisting of somewhere around 240 individuals have still not settled its contract. A certain amount of work has been done by federal officials, and the issues have not been resolved.

I have talked to our colleague on a number of occasions, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), ju st to keep him apprised of things, and he giving me information that comes to him. Both he and I are very, very concerned about the situation, because we do not want to see over 2,000 people thrown out of work. There is also the issue that, if there is a serious and prolonged work stoppage, the company has suggested that they may simply close and not reopen, so we take it very seriously.

I have written to the federal minister and I have spoken to the federal minister and brought to his attention the seriousness of this issue. I believe that he is taking steps to do what he can to assist with the resolution of the issues. Mr. Reid: I recognize that it is a federal responsibility. I am not suggesting that you or the department overstep the boundaries here or the balance that is in place.

I am ju st trying to ensure that adequate steps are taken to try and resolve the dispute and if the federal department in some way is unable to, because I do not know the type of skill level that they have available to them. We have some relatively good or fairly good conciliator media tors in this province, having known of the disputes that have been settled here in the past. If there is a role for us to play, then perhaps we can, in some way, share or utilize our expertise here within the province, should the federal department not be able to resolve the dispute prior to any work stoppage taking place.

That is the reason why I raise it here. I recognize and appreciate if the minister has been having discussions with the member for Flin Flon. I want to ask a question relating to Mr. Davage's job and when you are going to fill that job. I take it that that job is now out for a bidding process or you have some process in place where you are seeking out suitable candidates for that particular job. Can you tell me what process you have in place here to fill that particular vacancy? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that we will be proceeding with an open competition based on the civil service guidelines. Mr.

Reid: The civil service guidelines that apply particularly to that job and the skills, I take it then, would be the criteria used to hire an individu al to replace Mr. Davage based on a job description that perhaps would be available? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, as I have indicated, it wilJ be an open competition that will certainly be advertised. We would hope to be able to attract through that competition someone with the skills of Mr. Davage. I hasten to join my honourable friend in saying that the staff we have within the department do a good job, and I am very pleased and proud of the work they do.

The competition is designed to find the best candidate for the job, and we would hope to be entering into that in the coming months and by perhaps the early fall have somebody in place. Mr. Reid: Judging by the numbers of staff that you have available here and looking at the work stoppages that have occurred over the last 1 0 years, you may have available to you, I take it then, adequate people to deal at least with the numbers of cases that would be here. Do you have any process in place where you bring in or train other mediator-conciliators? I am not sure of

2844 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 your staffing mix that you have based on age or seniority that you have within the department. Are you in a process now where your staffing component is-how do I put this properly?-increasing in years and maybe looking at retirement versus being available to the department for future mediation-conciliation services? Do you have any process in place that would allow for a training component, or do you rely on other areas to train people to do this type of work? Mr.

Gilleshammer: If I get the sense of my honourable friend's question, if l can maybe reframe it, are we developing other staff within the department that can be brought along from time to time? I believe the answer to that is yes. I know that in some areas we are involved in doing what is called cross-training, so that people in perhaps one segment of the department are taking training and becoming aware of what happens in other segments of the department. Yes, I am sure that all of these people are getting older a year at a time.

I think the senior staff are aware of that and I think have a good handle on where people are moving and what their intentions are, and part of our reorganization as of April I, I think, was to address some ofthose issues. Mr. Reid: Well, I am happy to hear that you have a process in pla ce that will facilitate a retraining to continue with people who have the special skills, because from my life's experiences, mediation conciliation type of work, everyone is not cut out for that type of work. So it does require some training or some research to find those special people with those special skills.

Perhaps, the minister wants to comment further on that. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I asked some of the same questions in recent weeks. I used to be involved in doing a little bit of bargaining at the school division level and-[interjection] Well, I see we have some kinship there. I often would ask how successful we are in terms of conciliation processes in bringing parties together, because I only saw such a small part of that. I sort of wondered whether at times in the education system that was sort of a necessary step you went through on your way to arbitration.

I was impressed with the success rate that our conciliation officers have had in working with groups, and I think it is a testimony to the skills and talent that we have had there with Mr. Davage and others. Mr. Reid: I am trying to educate myself here a bit about this. Before you move into the areas dealing with Conciliation, Mediation, do you have some other process that is in place here to try and resolve a dispute if it is not major in nature? I say "major" in the sense of affecting many employees. Is there some dispute settlement mechanism that you have in place other than Conciliation, Mediation? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Yes, I am informed that we do some informal consultations. I think something that I am finding out about the department is that there is a lot of expertise there, and sometimes that expertise can be used by parties, as they are in the bargaining process, to clarify issues and get a better understanding of things like contract language, and wherever we can assist early on, I believe, that staf f can be made available. * (1 500) Mr.

Reid: Because the Pay Equity Services form a part of this branch as well and there had been, from my understanding, a process in place established to provide for pay equ ity in the public schools and perhaps other sectors, can you bring me up to date on what is happening with pay equity, not only just in the school divisions but overall? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that we are continuing to monitor ongoing agreements that are in place with various school divisions including Assiniboine South School Division.

Currently, there are a number of four-year and six-year agreements where the ongoing adju stments are managed by the Department of Education and Training and the Schools Finance branch. Any problems that develop would be reported to the Schools Finance branch who, in tum, will contact the Department of Labour for assistance. It is expected that this ongoing monitoring and the existing agreements will continue for several years. Mr. Reid: Does the department have any other activities underway or planned dealing with pay equity in both public and private sectors? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that the original mandate was to be involved in the public sector and that the department has all but completed their activities there. -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2845 Mr. Reid : There has been a reduction, a significant reduction in the-I guess it is the severance and vacation pay on retirement. Are those funds that are showing on the budget line item here, is that for the reduction or elimination of Mr. Davage's position? I take it he retired under the past year's budget and that is what this budget line was for. Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Reid : No questions on this. Mr. Chairperson: 11 .2.(

c) Conciliation, Mediation and Pay Equity Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4 17 ,5 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $84, 700-pass. 11 .2 .(

d) Pension Commission

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I have a question dealing with the Pension Commission. I had raised this with the minister in my opening remarks. Since that time I have had the opportunity, and before, to talk with Mr. Gordon of the Pension Commission, and he has been very co-operative and has provided me with advice that both I and my constituents were seeking, so we thank him for that information.

I have a few questions dealing with Merchants Consolidated, and I did take the opportunity to make members of the minister's department aware of it so that they would have time to research; but, before I pursue that line of questioning, I would like to ask the minister with respect to the explanation line showing in the supplem entary Estimates document here dealing with Service First Initiative. Can the minister explain that to me, please? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I would like to acknowledge Guy Gordon, who is our superintendent of the Pension Commission, who has joined us at the table.

If it is the budget line that the member is asking about, Mr. John Cumbe rford is active in another area but, I believe, shows up within our budgetary allocation here. Mr. Reid: Mr. Cumber ford, then, has been seconded by another area, another department, yet he still showing under this department's budget line? Mr. Gilleshamme r: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me what department he has been seconded by? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, he is involved with the Service First Initiative, which is looking at better ways to do things within government. Mr.

Reid: Perhaps the minister can elaborate on that for me. I am unfamiliar with that. Is that part of Government Services or is there another department that is involved in-I guess the question that leads out of that is: if he is doing work for another government department, should that budget line not be better shown, or are you going to do a cost recovery from that other department? Mr.

Gilleshamme r: Yes, this is a group of people that has been put together to, I guess, bring recommendations to government under what we call the Service First Initiative, to look at how some target departments work and how they can bring recommendations back to government as a whole to make changes in the way we do business and to provide services to the public by the best practices that are found in other governments or in the private sector and, as a result, be able to, I guess, improve the service that our departments provide to the public of Manitoba. Mr.

Reid: Can the minister give me an indication since it is one of his staff that has been seconded out here and, I take it, that he must have some further knowledge of the type of business and the type of services to the public that are under review? Perhaps he can share that information with us. Mr. Gilleshamme r: I know that this was raised, I believe, with the Premier's Estimates, and the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, spent some time on that initiative with them.

But it is again an attempt by government to examine government and how we do business and how our business processes and how we serve the public can be improved. It is some ongoing work that has been started within the last three years or so, and I am not sure whether this showed up in our Estima tes last year or not. I believe it did. Perhaps questions were not asked last year, but this has been an ongoing process and similar, I think, to previous

2846 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 governments and governments elsewhere in the country that use some of the talent and some of the staf f within government to, I suppose, see what position government is to respond to changing technology and the changing nature of the way we do business and how we can provide service to the public of Manitoba. This department in particular is, I think, a very service oriented department, and I think it is incumbent upon us to offer the very best level of service that we possibly can to our clients and to the public of Manitoba. * (1510 ) Mr.

Reid: The minister has given a general explanation again without getting into any specifics. He is talking about services. Are we talking particular government departments through Government Services? Is it dealing with other areas of government? Is it across all departments? I would just like to get an idea here. I mean I did not have the opportunity to sit in on the Executive Council Estimates, so I do not have knowledge of what discussions took place there, so perhaps the minister can give me some indication on the types of services that he is referring to here. Mr.

Gilleshammer: In our own department we are looking at how we use technology and how we can better use the new technology that is part and parcel of the workplace. We are looking at certainly the purchasing we do, looking at our accounting skills and abilities.

I think I mentioned in my opening remarks yesterday that we cost-recover in excess of 60 percent of the total expenditures that we make, and wherever we can reduce the paperwork and reduce the red tape and improve the quality of the data that we have within the department and also speed up our response to the public, all of these things are part of this service-first initiative. Mr. Reid: I will not pursue that line any further. I guess if I need more details, I will have to go back to the Premier's Estima tes and have some detail out of that.

I understand it may be more difficult for the minister to talk about what is happening in other departments. I am just trying to get an understanding here. It shows that about a little over $28,0 00 has been moved, so I take it that a portion of Mr. Cumber ford's salary is being picked up by another area while he is doing that particular type of work. Am I accurate in that statement? Mr. Gilleshammer: I would certainly encourage him to go back and read Hansard from the Estima tes of a number of departments.

I was not being glib when I said that, but this is an initiative that a whole host of departments are involved in including the Department of Finance, the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, I believe Highways, and Agriculture.

Again I do not think it is something that has a lot of mystery surrounding it; it is just an attempt by government to examine themselves in how they do business, and how we can provide better service to our various clients, and how we can more efficiently do the accounting and the paperwork and use the modem technology that is presenting itself in the workplace and in departments. You can appreciate that mil lions and mill ions of dollars are spent on new technology, and that is across many, many departments. Sometimes departments were set up to do business in a certain way, and it has been historical.

Change can be difficult to bring about, particularly if it cannot be easily and clearly demonstrated that there is a better way to do it. I think that it is incumbent upon all departments to be able to train their staff and bring them up to a certain skill level and to be sure that they are using the new technology appropriately and learning from others, learning from other departments and learning from other governments and learning from the private sector, if there is a better way to do things, and that we can free up resources within each department or within ma ny departments.

The member will be well aware the tremendous pressure there is on all governments across this country to spend their resources wisely and the difficulties we have on the revenue side from the federal government withdrawing some of the historical payments that they have been responsible for. If we can free up resources to provide those services within each and every department in a better way and at the same time our priorities as government has always been health and education and social services, they, along with the payment on the debt, take up I think in excess of 70 percent of our budget.

So if there are ways we can do business better, learn from others, learn from our own staff who often are a tremendous resource in coming up with better methods and better ideas. I think you have to create that culture within a department and within -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2847 government to encourage people to bring forth these ideas and examine how we can better do things. Mr. Reid: Do those better ideas and ways of operating government include bringing in other fees to move toward full cost recovery? Mr. Gillesb ammer: Well, certainly we have to be mindful in our department, where we do cost recover over 60 percent of the cost of doing business. I think our fees have to reflect the cost of those services in many cases.

I think we have to be aware of what it costs other people to do the same thing and, also, doing cross-Canada comparisons. I know anytime we look at fees in this department or in any department I have been in, I immedia tely say, well, what does it cost in Saskatchewan to do the same thing? What does it cost in Alberta? If our fees are out of proportion, they are significantly higher, then I think you either reduce them or freeze them. If they are lower, then I think we have to look at raising them, but I think we always have to be able to have the ability to justify what those fees are.

If it costs our inspection people or some of our services that we offer a certain amount that we can quantify and quantify accura tely, and if we are providing that service to outside sources, we have to be sure those fees are fair. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, is the department-are you as minister contemplating or are you in the process of adjusting any of those fees? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. I can indicate that there are some licencing areas and some inspection areas where we have or we are in the process of adjusting those fees. Mr.

Reid: Does the minister wish to read them into the record or would he ju st like to provide a copy of them to me? Mr. Gilleshammer: I can give some examples here. These are fee increases from existing revenue sources. Fees payable for gas and oil fitters licences and licence renewals is going to be $40. Fees payable for testing and licensing of welders will be $26 .50. Fees payable for inspection approval of elevator drawings and design specifications will be $5. Fees for services of conciliation officers appointed under The Public Schools Act, the hourly rate there is going to be $85. Those are some examples.

If we had them in an appropriate format, I can maybe commit to getting some of that information for you. * (1 520) Mr. Reid: I would appreciate if the minister-! realize they are in departmental documents. If he has a summ ary of the fee changes, I would appreciate his sending that information to me. If he could do it in a-1 am not going to say I need it tomorrow, but if you have the opportunity in the next week or so, I would appreciate that information. Mr.

Gillesbammer: I am not even sure I was interpreting some of those columns correctly, but I will commit to get some information in an appropriate format for my friend. Mr. Reid: Did those fee increases also include building permit fees? Does that fall under this department as well? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. I am told that the building permit fees would be under the Office of the Fire Commissioner. Mr. Reid: Then perhaps that would be the appropriate place to raise that with respect to fees. I will hold that until we are at that point then. I will move on, Mr.

Chairman, to Merchants Consolidated, dealing with more directly with the Pension Commission. I have received a piece of correspondence that I have available here, and perhaps even the minister's department has already received this or is aware of it. If you are not, I can provide a copy to you or at least let you read this one. It is a letter that was sent to the Pension Commission on May 12 , not that many days ago, and it is dealing with former employees of Merchants Consolidated.

Of course, the mi nister may know that particular firm folded operations some years ago and has been under the care of a receiver, Peat Marwick. The employees are contesting the fact that the receiver has said that the surplus of the pension fund be

2848 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 split 50-50 between the receiver acting on behalf of the creditors of that particular company and the former employees, the other 50 percent. We are talking about approximately $137 ,000, so they indicate here, of surplus pension funds. (Mr.

Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) I realize on an individual basis this may not be a huge dollar value by comparison to what we are dealing in departmental Estimates here; but, to the individuals involved, it is nevertheless monies to which they feel they are entitled, based on their comm ents that they have provided for me, that they were greater contributors to the pen sion fund asset itself and that therefore they feel that it would be fair if those funds would be split on a 70-30 basis in favour of the beneficiaries of the pension fund versus the 50-50 formula that the receiver Peat Marwick is proposing.

Can the mi nister tell me what process you have in place and whether or not this is considered reasonable, or other process we have in place to deal with this, so that these employees can feel that they have in some way received fair treatment through the disposal of the assets that are remaining in this particular fund? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, a pleasure to have you with us this afternoon. There is an ongoing process that is before the Pension Commission at this time, and it is my understanding that they have received submissions from interested parties.

There is a date in the not-too-distant future by which time all of the involved parties who want to make their ideas and feelings known to the commissi on-it is still just a little bit further down the road. At the end of the process it is my understanding that the Pension Commission will make a decision on this.

It seems that we have a situation where the receiver and the union did come to some agreement on how these funds would be shared to a certain extent, but there are individuals who are approaching the Pension Commission to give their thoughts on it, either for or against, or adding their wisdom and their feelings as to how this eventually should be resolved. So all of that, it is my understanding, is now before the Pension Commission, and in the coming weeks they will be rendering a decision. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me the date that he is referencing here? Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe it is this month.

The last date at which time the Pension Commission is accepting these submissions is May I 8. Then the comm ission will have to set a date for their meeting. That has not been set as yet dependent on the availability of the individuals who comprise that commission, and at that time they will be proceeding with their decision-making process. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, since the date is fast approaching, we do not have many days before this is to be dealt with.

It seems to me to be a reasonable request and fair to the employees if they were to be involved in this process since it is essentially at least some or in part their money that they be given all of the facts so that they can make what we would term informed consent of whatever decision would occur.

So I have to ask: Have all of the former employees ofMerchants Consolidated who were memb ers of this particular pension plan been contacted and have the facts been provided to them with respect to the funds and the process that is to be followed and the decision date and other facts that they may require to allow them to make that particular informed decision? * (1 530 ) Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that the receiver, in this case Peat Marwick limited, did inform the individuals involved of the details of this pension issue and that in addition to that ads were placed in the Free Press to indicate to interested parties that this was the information and that there was a process in progress and that people gather their information from there. I suspect if more information was required that they would probably contact the receiver and perhaps some of them have contacted our staff for information and clarification.

I think what the member is asking is, has it been a fair process and has it been an inclusive one and have people got the information? I am told that we are comfortable that that information has been provided. Mr. Reid: So I take it then that the Pension Commission itself is not the party that is informing the

May 15 , 19 97 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2849 former employees or the beneficiaries of the pension plan, that it has been essentially left up to the receiver, who is acting on behalf of the creditors of that now defunct firm to do the consultation and advice to the beneficiaries of the pension plan. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the receiver certainly provided the information. That was shared with and accepted by the union, and they came to an agreement.

I am not sure if the member is saying that there is some component of this that has not been fully examined that he would like information on, or is it just comfort that everything that can be done has been done? Mr. Reid: I am concerned here. I am not questioning the capabilities of the particular firm acting as the receiver. What I am saying though is that they do and are acting on behalf of the creditors; they are appointed as the receiver. I could be wrong in this, and the minister can correct me.

When you are acting on behalf of the creditors of the firm and you are trying to dispose of the assets, you have no real responsibility to the beneficiaries or their entitlements to any pension fund surpluses and, therefore, the employees themselves, while they do have some union representation, they may not continue to be members of that particular union now because that firm has folded and those employees may have dispersed and gone off to other employment, perhaps in the nonunion sector or as members of other unions.

So in a sense there is not that cohesiveness or that sense that all the information has to be provided, because there is no balance in there that says you have to represent me or a duty to represent both on the part of the receiver acting on behalf of the creditors and the union itself that is obviously no longer representing the former employees at that firm because the firm is now out of business.

So I am worried here that the employees-and this is what I am asking the minister-is to make sure that the process is as open and clear as can humanly be expected to make sure that the former employees who may have some entitlement to the surpluses of those pension funds are treated in a fair manner and can make an informed decision, and at the end of the day they have all of the facts avai lable to them to allow them to make that decision.

I am a bit worried here, judging by the letter that has been provided to me, that while an agreement may have been struck between the union that was formerly representing these employees and the receiver, that the employees themselves, judging by the names that I have here-and I know it is not the majority, but there may be others that the Pension Commission may know about-are not happy with the arrangement that has been made to the 50-50 split, because they say they contributed more to the pension fund itself, to the base asset, and therefore should have a greater entitlement to any surpluses that are resl.lting or accruing as a result of those investments, and that what they are calling for is a 30-70 split in favour of the beneficiaries of the pension fund.

In that sense, if that is accurate, I would like to know whether or not the Department of Labour through the Pension Commission, or through other parts of the department, can play a role in this process to make sure that indeed the number is 13 7,000 in assets. While it is not large in dollar value compared to the departmental budget, to these people it is a significant amount of money and they want to make sure that they receive their fair entitlement. That is the essence of what I am asking here of the department. Mr. Gilleshammer: I think in his conclusion, I think we share that concern.

I am certainly not going to be critical of the union. I do not know which one it was or who their staff were. I just know that the union involved did reach agreement with the receiver because the amount of money was not large and because if this ended up in court, the legal fees easily would have exceeded the amount of money available to be redistributed. So this was seen as a way of solving it between the receiver and the union to split it 50-50.

The alternative was to get lawyers involved representing both sides and perhaps representing individuals and because of the amount of money involved, there would have been nothing to share. This proposal, it is my understanding, was put forward to resolve the issue in a format or an agreement that was acceptable to the receiver and acceptable to the union.

Now I recognize that the union maybe did not have the complete membership involved and, in fact, my understanding, because this receivership goes back to August of 19 88, some of the individuals had passed away and are actually represented by other family members here. So it was seen as the best way of

2850 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 15 , 19 97 resolving the issue without having the principal, the funds involved, completely eaten up in court costs and legal fees. So, at the present time, I guess the appeal mechanism here is the Pension Commission who have invited concerned parties to put forward their case, to put forward their thoughts. Obviously, a deadline had to be set and it is later this month, May 18 , and they will, at a subsequent meeting of the commission, render a decision. Mr. Reid: I need to know-and I am sure my constituents will want to know the trigger point as well.

There are four names shown on this list here, and they may have other names. I am not sure how many names the Pension Commission has collected with respect to these surplus funds. Can the minister tell me how many former employees or their beneficiaries or family members have made application to the Pension Commission disputing the decision that has been reached between the union and the receiver? Mr. Gilleshammer : I am informed about 8 percent of the beneficiaries have formally notified the Pension Commission of their opposition to the proposal. Mr. Reid: Eight percent of how many employees? Mr.

Gilleshamm er: The 8 percent translates into 30 beneficiaries. * (1 540) Mr. Reid: Can the minister, because I asked what the trigger point is-I am not sur•.: of the process that is followed by the Pension Commission. Is there a hearing that takes place to allow these former employees who stand in dispute of the decision that had been reached between the union and the receiver? Is there a process that would allow them to come out and appeal that particular decision or at least voice their concerns and have that taken into consideration?

What process is there that would allow, or mechanism that would allow, for them to have their voices heard? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that, in the process that is followed by the Pension Commission, they will review all of the information that has been presented to them, and the individuals have until May 18 to, in some form, present their information to the Pension Commission. Mr.

Reid : So I take it then that, since these four individuals, and 30 in total, have presented their viewpo ints to the Pension Commission, now am I to conclude from that that there will be a hearing that will occur, and that these members will have the opportunity to sit in. at least hear, be part of the decision that is being made or be involved in the decision-making process? Can you tell me, because I am not familiar with the activities of the Pension Commission? How is it that a decision is arrived at so that I might inform my constituents? Mr.

Gilleshammer : I am told that their process, the process of having input from these individuals, is the process that is going on at this time, that they have been asked to submit their concerns, their ideas, their opposition, their thinking on it by a certain date. When that information is gathered, after that date the commission will be holding a meeting, and, based on the information that has been presented to them, they will render a decision. Mr. Reid : I know time is short here.

With respect to the decision date, I just wish there was a way that was more open in a process that would allow them to more actively pursue or impress their viewpoints upon the decision makers in this, because it is their money. I understand that, if this goes to court, there is potential that lawyers will eat up through legal costs any of the funds that are said to be in surplus. I am sure we do not want to see that happening. We would like to see this money returned to the beneficiaries of the plan.

But it is unfortunate that, if there was a contribution greater by the employees than by the former employer, those funds could have been dispensed or split more equally along the lines of the contributions on a ratio that would represent the contributions that had been made. So I am just basing that comment on information that has been supplied to me by my constituents, and that is why I have raised that matter with the minister. Mr.

Gilleshamm er: Yes, just to help the member maybe put this in perspective, and he may have this figure, but I am told that the average amount paid per beneficiary would amount to about $17 5. So that is the - -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 285 1 level of money that is involved, and you can readily understand that, if you are going to launch into a court process here, there will be nothing. So this, again, was the recommendation of both the receiver and the union as a fair way of splitting up these proceeds, and there are 35 4 beneficiaries. So I appreciate the sum, the $17 5, is a significant sum, and if they feel they are entitled to more of that, it might grow to $200 or $250. But to others this is not-and,'! inean, I do not know any of these people. I do not believe any of them have written to me.

If they have, I have not seen the letters yet. Mr. Reid: Do you want to read it? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, sure. So, again, given the numbers of people involved, given the amount that would come to each beneficiary based on the receiver and union agreement, at some point this has to have closure brought to it because it has been almost 10 years now since the company went into receiversh ip. I guess it could be argued that it is even not timely now, that it should have been resolved earlier. But it has been in front of different people for 10 years.

I am sure the Pension Commission will review the information that has been brought forward by the union and by Peat Marwick and by the 30 beneficiaries who have had their input into this. At some point, as I say, closure has to be brought to the matter and a decision has to be made. Mr. Reid: Well, I shared the letter with the minister and, I mean, there is nothing to hide in the process. I am just here representing the interests of my constituents on this matter and some of the others that may have some concerns with respect on how these funds were split. I will leave that.

I hope that the best decision is made to represent. I have never made any secret about my feelings with respect to pension funds. It has always been my belief that pension funds belong to the employees for which that particular pension fund was established, and that includes the surplus. The funds should remain in there for the benefit of the employees. That has always been my feeling. I have been involved with pension funds in the past, and I know that there is a bigger question that needs to be answered in this country with respect to the ownership of pension funds.

We are going to see more problems in the future as companies, as we are seeing with Eaton's employees right now, where Eaton's want to take the surplus out ofthat particular pension fund, feeling that they have some entitlement to it. But it has always been my understanding, my impression that those pension funds were established for their employees, either in union or nonunion operations, for the benefit of the emplo;-:�es, and there is a formula that is set up to put those funds in place.

Yes, if those funds are set up in a proper way and the investments are made and there is an experienced gain from those particular pension fund investments, those funds should go back into the pension fund for the benefit of the employees, for enhancing services to the people that are retired. That has always been my vi ewpoint with respect to pension funds, and I hope that sometime in my lifetime that that question will be addressed, perhaps even through the courts. We will have to make that decision because I think that question needs to be addressed on who actually owns the pension funds in this country.

I want to ask the minister, with respect to the LIRAs and the life income funds, the locked-in funds, whether or not there is going to be some move. Is some research being done by government department through the Pension Commission dealing with the flexibility? (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) I have received phone calls on this, and I know I have talked to Mr. Gordon about this on more than one occasion. Members of the public have consulted me about the lack of flexibility of their particular pension funds having to be put into LIRA or to an LIF. They are not happy with that process.

They would like to have their funds made avai lable to them at their discretion. So if they choose to take out certain amounts of money in a period of time when they have health avai lable to allow them to travel or for whatever purpose, they want to have that flexibility. *( 15 50) Is any research being done with respect to policy in the Pension Commission or in the Department of Labour allowing for further expansion or flexibility to allow these funds to be transferred into an RRIF versus

2852 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15 , 19 97 into the only two available options, which are the LIRA or the LIF? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told, as a department, we are continuing to monitor this and to make adju stments where it is deemed appropriate. Mr. Reid: So when you say you are monitoring this, then, you are registering the number of phone calls that come in and the people that are worried about the lack of flexibility and, at this point, you have not made any move to have any further policy research done. Mr.

Gilleshamme r: Well, I think the member is maybe making light of the work that is done by the people in Pensions. I believe that they not only record phone calls but take very seriously the information that is brought to them by members of the public and groups representing pensions and clearly analyze those issues and try to understand them. Where necessary, as I have indicated, we make those adju stments that are needed. So it is not ju st a question of registering phone calls.

When I use the word "monitor," I believe that the issues that our pension people will be looking at are issues that are common right across the country. I would indicate that part of our legislative package this year is a bill on pension reform, and I did offer a couple of weeks ago to have staf f come in and go through that in some detail, to give my honourable friend a good understanding of it.

These are, I am finding, complicated and complex issues, some of which are new to me, and I think it would be very beneficial if we could set up a meeting just on that particular bill, because the process that I have been through with the department and by others who have viewed this legislation feel that we are making some very, very progressive changes there which are for the benefit of individuals who have paid into pensions. I am not sure when this legislation was last looked at, but we have been looking at it and have tabled a.

We would be pleased to go into the detail and the thinking behind that with the honourable member. Mr. Reid: Yes, I realize the minister did make the offer to have a briefing with respect to the various pieces of legislation that he has, and I appreciate that offer. I will attempt to find the time to have that briefing. I am ju st trying to get an understanding here, and I am not trying to minim ize the efforts of the department. When I said, "registering phone calls," I should have broadened that and said that any correspondence you may have received in this regard too.

The calls that I received, there have been a couple, but I could tell you that the people were very irate when they found out that they did not have any flexibility. They thought that they were responsible adults. They had been that way all of their working years and had very carefully managed their own funds, but they get to the end of the day and they find out that their monies have to be transferred into an LIRA or to an LIF, and there was little flexibility for them.

They are quite concerned, because they had been responsible; they wanted to have the care and control of their own funds and how those funds are spent in their retirement years. One of the reasons why we participate in pension plans or invest into RRSPs is to provide for our retirement years, and then to have someone say that you are only going to have X number of dollars a mo�th until your expected date of death based on actuanal evaluations says that you are not responsible. So that is why they are irate, and those are the comments that they have made to me.

That is why I ask with respect to further flexibility that the department may be researching in regard to RRIFs, to allow them some greater flexibility to make those individual decisions. 1 understand there are consequences potentially. Mr. Gordon has drawn to my attention, and I appreciate that, with respect to potential social costs down the road should the people not manage their money appropriately. But I think that by far the majority � f people would be responsible with their own funds 1_n providing for their future years and . thr?ug� the1r retirement years. and that is why I rmse 1t w1th the minister. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, I agree wholeheartedly with the member for Transcona that nothing is more near and dear to the hearts of people who are in a pension plan, particularly as they get into their 40s and 50s or nearing those retirement years, that they want some certainty about what their income is going to be in retirement. 1 know from my experience as a high school principal in this province that every year as we approached May -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2853 31 there would be from time to time people on my own staff, but certainly throughout the division, who were contemplating retirement. It is a very emotional thing. I think maybe one of the most difficult letters to write is that letter of resignation, because they know that, once they sign it and convey it, it is a done deal.

I had many experiences where people said early in the school year, yeah, this is it, my last year, told everybody, and, you know, along about Christmas I would say: "Well, do you want to make that official?" "No, I am just going to wait awhile," and inevitably, sometime in May and sometimes in the last hour of the last day, they would eventually get that letter written.

In the meantime, I think a tremendous amount of work had been done by them and their advisers and their pension plan people to examine in minute detail what their pension plan meant, what their retirement income was going to be, what the rules were, and nobody wants the rules changed in sort of mid-stream.

They want to examine what other income they would have, whether it was from Old Age Security or CPP, and then they wanted to examine what sort of money that they would need to live in retirement and try and understand that, if they are not paying their union dues and they are not paying parking fees and so forth, they could live with less. But it never seems to come down to sort of exact numbers that people felt they could count on or that they felt were identified in an exact way so that they could make that decision.

So I certainly accept my honourable friend's comments that pensions are just so important to people. I know that, with a recent mining story about a company that has been on a roller-coaster ride in recent months, people were finding that certain pension funds had been invested there and were quite angry, upset, worried. Fortunately, most of these pension funds have a balance to them and they have some in high risk and some in low risk, and it sort of balances out.

But it was, I am sure, going to be brought to their attention very straightforwardly that they should not have been playing around with mining stocks of that nature. I mean, it is unsettling. So all of these things, I think, are part of pension funds. It is incumbent upon different pension funds to ensure that they are well managed, and we as a government have a role to play, and I believe, from what I have seen in the last four months in this department, it is a role we take very seriously.

I look forward to being able to go through that legislation with my honourable friend, and I think he will see that the changes that are being proposed are going to be good ones and well received. Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I have dwelled on this area a fair amount. I appreciate the minister's comment, and I will attempt early next week to take him up on his offer for a briefing with respect to the legislation. I have no other questions in regard to the Pension Commission at this time. * (1 600) Mr. Chairperson: 11 .2.(

d) Pension Commission

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $240,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $79, 400-pass. 11 .2 .(

e) Manitoba Labour Board

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Reid: There have been some changes to the Manitoba Labour Board as a result ofBi11 17 , I think, Bill 73 and Bill 26 last year. I take it that the Labour Board has taken on some new duties and responsibilities with respect to those pieces of legis lation in addition to the duties that they held previously. At the time I had to ask the former Minister of Labour because it had been drawn to my attention that there was perhaps insufficient funds to allow for the Labour Board to continue with its work.

I am happy to see that the Labour Board has received some increase in funding this particular year, and it is under the heading of Other Expenditures. Now I guess the question I need to ask here, because the former Minister of Labour-and I say this in all seriousness-denied that there was going to be a requirement for further funds even though I know full well that it was necessary that they have the ability to continue with their duties in addition to the new duties being assigned.

Is the increase in funding that has been provided here for the Labour Board activities sufficient to carry on with their current role and mandate that has been now increased for them, or is there some further

2854 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 15 , 19 97 requirement that they may have to allow them to complete their mandate? Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce John Korpesho, who is the chairperson of the Manitoba Labour Board, who joined us here at the table. There was some $40,000 that has been added to that particular line, and I am told this reflected the thinking within the department that there may be some other resources that were required there.

Again, I guess it is difficult to precisely pinpoint whether that is too much or not enough, but as the Estimates were being prepared there were some new resources put into this area. Mr. Reid: I understand it is fairly early in the year to get an accurate picture on whether or not this is going to be sufficient funds, but from my understanding of board activities in past years they have had to really stretch their budgets at the end of the year to try and make ends meet to allow them to complete their mandate.

I am not saying this in a political way because I realize that there were different governments that were involved here and perhaps there were insufficient funds provided by both types of government. I am just trying to get an understanding here based on the anticipated case load or workload that they have that this will be sufficient funds. I am trying to get an understanding from the minister. does he feel that, based on the assumptions that the department has made, that this will be adequate funding? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, various parts of various departments operate in areas where they are volume driven.

I know that when I ·.vas Minister of Family Services the amount of resr,urces you put into social allowances was based on the best information available from the department and the statistics that they were able to gather as to what volume would be anticipated for in the coming months. Often they were pretty close to being right. Sometimes they were low and sometimes they were high, and I guess any part of any department where you have to deal with certain volumes you make the best efforts to assign the appropriate number.

On the other hand, you have some departments, and I know in Culture, Heritage and Citizenship you have got a very well-defined budget that is very easy to live within each and every year because you simply make expenditures as deemed appropriate, and when you are done you are done. There are no additional funds that you can put in there. The member is correct, it is very early in the year. We are just six weeks into the budget year. These things were I am sure debated and discussed within the Estimates process of the department, and this was the figure that was added to this particular budget line. Mr.

Reid: Last year the former Minister of Labour said that on average there were about 73 certification applications that the Labour Board would deal with. It is my understanding that with the new process as a result of Bill 26. it could potentially involve considerably more travel. I see that the budget line for transportation has increased, including personal services for fees. I take it you are anticipating there will be more of those secret ballot votes that are held throughout the province. and that is why that budget line has increased .

Does the department have some idea. do they expect that the certification applications will remain somewhat constant compared to what the former Minister of Labour had said. which would be around 73 or so a year? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that it is fairly consistent with the previous year. marginally up from last year. Mr. Reid: When you say marginally up, can you give me a number associated with that? I am not saying that it has to be a hard and fast number here, but I know you must have some estimates that are anticipated. Mr. Gilleshammer: The number last year was 70.

In the first few weeks and months of this year, there have been II . Mr. Reid: Ele ven secret ballot votes that have occurred so far this year, is that what the minister is indicating? Mr. Gi ileshammer: Staff are indicating, since February I there have been 26. Mr. Reid: I take it that is when the legislation took effect, and that is why it is only back to that point in - -

May 15 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2855 time? February 1 was the trigger point and that is why your number starts February 1? Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Reid: If we are only three months in since this legislation has taken effect, and we have 26 applications so far, if you extrapolate that out to the end of the year, you are going to be looking at well over 10 0 secret ballot votes this year when your historical average has been 73, based on the minister's statement, last year, and 70 last year.

Do you anticipate that those funds that you put in place are going to be adequate to handle this extra workload that is anticipated? (Mr. Edward Helw er, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Gilleshammer: It will certainly be an ongoing process of monitoring this. I do not know if you can always assume that you are going to get the same volume month over month throughout the year. I guess the reality is that we have put some extra funds in there. If we need to find a way to provide the service which is going to require more funds, then the challenge before us will be to find those funds. * (1610 ) Mr.

Reid: It had been stated that-I believe I am correct in saying that five to seven days would be the time for those votes to take place. If the present trend of secret ballot votes continues for what you are seeing in the first quarter of operation under this legislation, do you anticipate that you will be able to find the necessary funds should the Labour Board require it to allow them to continue to meet the deadline that they have to make sure that those votes can take place within the five to seven days?

I am trying to get some assurance here that, of course, the Labour Board is not going to be starved, and, of course, there are repercussions down the line for those that are involved, both employer and employee. Mr. Gilleshammer: My sense is the attitude within the senior staff is that the work of the Labour Board is extremely important work, and that we have been able to conduct those votes in the past and we will continue to strive to meet those guidelines. I think the track record has been very, very good. If you are asking, is the department up to the challenge to find more funds if they have to?

I think they would take that very seriously and find a way to do it. Mr. Reid: That is the part that bothers me, if they have to find it internally to the department. then somebody else gets starved out of the process instead of going back to Treasury Board and cabinet for having made the decision on the legislation in the first place. That is the part that concerns me here.

That is why I want to get an assurance here that the minister will not just starve another part of the Department of Labour if additional funds are required, and that you would be prepared to go back to cabinet and to Treasury Board to request that particular financial support to carry on the mandate that cabinet has indicated through your government that they must undertake. That is why I need that level of assurance that other parts of his department will not be shortchanged as a result of increased activities of the Labour Board. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I think we would do everything we can to treat everybody fairly. If we need more funds, I hear the member saying is to go back to Treasury Board and get some more. Concurrent with that, I suppose, if we needed to raise more taxes, the member would be in favour of that as well. Mr. Reid: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I feel the minister is taking the debate here and the discussion to a little lower level than it has been here for the last three hours. I hoped we had not chosen to pursue that course of action, and I am hoping we could keep this on the high road.

I am only concerned for other portions of his department that may be starved for funds, because the mandate given to the Labour Board has become, perhaps, onerous, too onerous for them to handle financially, and I want to make sure that he is not going to shortchange other parts of his department to ensure that the Labour Board activities can continue, because it was the legislation of your govemment through you who, as a member of cabinet, had the ability to pass decision on it. What I am trying to make clear to you here is that I want the debate to be on a higher plane here.

I have not degenerated it to a lower level at this point, but I sense by the comments that you are making to me here you

2856 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 15, 19 97 want it to move in that direction. I am not adverse to that. I mean, I have played at this game now for a number of years, and we can move to that level if you want. But I am trying to play this at a higher level here and have some constructive debate take place, and I want to make sure that the department is not going to be shortchanged down the road here.

I am the critic responsible, and I want to make sure that they are able to do the job to which they are mandated to do, whether it be in Employment Standards, Workplace Safety and Health or any other area of the department. I understand the Labour Board has a job to do. want to make sure they have sufficient funds to do it, because your government has mandated that they undertake that work. That is what I am trying to ensure here that you have the ability as minister to go back to cabinet and say, you said before I came to this job that this is going to be the role of the Labour Board.

If the best guess was not accurate, because it is only a guess at this point, I understand that, that when it comes to the end of the year, if there are not sufficient funds, the cabinet has to understand that they mandated the changes and they mandated the additional workload. Therefore, they have to find in some way without raising taxes, as the minister suggested, because he wants to move this to a lower level of debate here-that Labour Board would be the cause of having to raise those taxes when it was the legislation that was the cause. Mr. Gill eshammer: Well, this is not a game. I take this very seriously.

I think the department worked diligently on preparing the Estimates, and their determination was that this part of our department required additional resource� I have already indicated that we have found those resources, and it is the very best thinking within tre department that this is adequate. It might be too much. It might be not enough. We will have to deal with that at the appropriate time. Again, the work of the Labour Board has to go on, and we will have to wait, along with the mem ber, to see what volume of work they have and to see if this is adequate or not.

I have indicated that the challenge to the department would be to find those additional resources if necessary, and they are confident that they can do that. Mr. Reid: Okay, I will continue to monitor the situation with respect to the Labour Board activities, as I am sure the minister would expect me to do. I want to ask the minister, since the legislation is now into effect, have there been any applications for information as a result of Bill 26 legislation, and if so, how many? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed there has been one application. Mr.

Reid: Can the minister shed more light on that particular application? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that there was one application and it was rejected, because the individual who brought forward the request was not deemed to be an employee. Mr. Reid: Can the minister indicate, was the person who made the applicatio

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-46b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 46b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	923fdd238ad830f6ae936e2c11d2b672b2fe878f

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