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May 2,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, David Brazil, MHA for Conception Bay East Bell

Island, substitutes for Tracey Perry, MHA for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mark Browne, MHA for Placentia West Bellevue,

substitutes for Betty Parsley, MHA for Harbour Main.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Neil King, MHA for Bonavista, substitutes for

Carol Anne Haley, MHA for Burin Grand Bank.

The

Committee met at approximately 9 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Dempster):

Good morning, Minister,

let's try this again.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Sherry Gambin-Walsh,

Minister of Child, Youth and Family Services.

MR. BENNETT:

Good morning.

Derek

Bennett, MHA for Lewisporte Twillingate District and Parliamentary Secretary.

MS. COCHRANE:

Good morning.

I'm

Rachelle Cochrane. I'm Deputy Minister of CYFS.

MR. HEALEY:

Good Morning.

I'm

Rick Healey. I'm the Assistant Deputy Minister with Policies and Programs at

CYFS.

MS. O'NEILL:

Good morning.

I'm

Melony O'Neill, Director of Communications.

MS. OSMOND:

Good morning.

Christine Osmond, Director of Adoptions.

MR. GRANDY:

Hi, Paul Grandy, Departmental Controller.

MS. WHITE:

Kelly White, EA to the minister.

MS. PEREIRA:

Susan Pereira, Manager of Human Resources.

MR. FRENCH:

Good morning.

I'm

Steve French, Manager of Budgeting.

MR. BRAZIL:

David Brazil, MHA for Conception Bay East Bell Island.

MS. HAYDEN:

Veronica Hayden, Executive Assistant to Paul Davis.

MS. ROGERS:

I'm Gerry Rogers. I work for the good people of St. John's Centre.

Susan

Williams is a researcher with our caucus. She just had to step out to get

something.

MR. REID:

Scott Reid, MHA, St.

George's Humber.

MR. KING:

Neil King, MHA for the

historic District of Bonavista. I'm filling in for Carol Anne Haley.

MR. BROWNE:

Mark Browne, MHA, Placentia

West Bellevue and Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier, filling in for Ms.

Parsley from Harbour Main.

CHAIR:

Continuing on subbing, we

also have the hon. Member for Conception Bay East Bell Island replacing the

hon. Member for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune for this morning.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Good.

We'll

have the minister open with a few words and then we'll start with Mr. Brazil.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Good morning.

Thank

you all for being here this morning to participate in the Estimates for the

Department of Child, Youth and Family Services.

Through

Budget 2016-17, our government is reiterating its commitment to ensuring the

protection and well-being of our province's most vulnerable children and youth.

We are continuing to move forward with a focus on further enhancing child and

youth care through the provision and development of programs, policies,

standards and services and with an investment of approximately $150 million for

child protection.

We also

remain committed to the approved organizational structure of 1-20 ratios and

team structures. The department's organizational model for service delivery

provides our front-line team with one supervisor for a team of every six social

workers, one social worker for every 20 cases, one social work assistant for

every team and one clerical for every team.

We have

made every effort to maintain our front-line services as we navigate through

these difficult financial times. That is why we have chosen to amalgamate some

Child, Youth and Family Services sites where there will be no impact on our

staffing model and client services.

As of

March 31, 2016 there were a total of 52 offices. After closures and

consolidation in the coming months, we will have a total of 47 offices located

throughout the province. It is our belief that through this amalgamation we will

be able to further enhance effectiveness of child protection services by

strengthening our teams through case management.

Currently, there are a total of 554 front-line positions, of which 89 12 per

cent are vacant with no incumbent. Our department continues its ongoing

recruitment to fill these vacancies on a temporary and permanent basis. Just

last month, April, we posted a new ad for the 2016 social workers eligibility

list on the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador's job portal. Our

recruitment efforts for Labrador continue to be very challenging but we remain

focussed in our efforts to fill vacancies and improve caseloads in this region.

As the

Department of Child, Youth and Family Services continues to succeed in laying a

strong foundation to address the systemic issues in child protection services in

our province, it is important to understand the context in which these services

are delivered.

While

our province's population continues to decline, the number of children entering

into care is actually on the rise. At this point, we have approximately 1,000

children in our care, with another approximately 5,000 children involved with

the department's protective intervention services.

The

department has made significant progress since it was created in 2009. Some of

most recent successes we are especially pleased with include: the development

and implementation of 12 new provincial policies and procedures for the

Protective Intervention Program which include a range of policy areas such as

child care, behavioral aid and transportation; the establishment of two new

pilot projects: Waypoints Foster Family Support Pilot Project which is a

partnership between Child, Youth and Family Services, the Newfoundland and

Labrador Foster Families Association and Waypoints. Through this project,

Waypoints works with participating foster parents in their homes and communities

to provide wraparound services.

specialized Family-Based Care Pilot Project which is a partnerships between

Child, Youth and Family Services and Key Assets; through this project Key Assets

provides Level 3 care and services to children and youth with complex needs. The

signing of a new working-relationship agreement between Child, Youth and Family

Services and the Sheshatshiu and Mushuau First Nations; this agreement focuses

on improving services, co-ordination and information sharing as it pertains to

the protection in the communities of Sheshatshiu and Natuashish and the ongoing

work of the Nunatsiavut Government to ensure more Level 4 placements are

available in Labrador for Inuit children.

Despite

the difficult fiscal realities facing the province, Budget 2016-17 will continue

to provide the necessary supports so the Department of Child, Youth and Family

Services will be able to further enhance the services and care provided to our

province's children, youth and their families.

Now,

I'd like to take the opportunity to address any questions you may have.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

I'll

now ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Ms. Murphy):

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I have no questions on that

section.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Well,

we're going to if it's okay with yourself and Ms. Rogers work down through

the ones, then we'll call that inclusive at the end.

MR. BRAZIL:

Sure. Okay.

MS. ROGERS:

David, you have

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, I'm going into 1.2. So

I'm good to go there?

CHAIR:

Yes, you can continue on

through, right down to 1.2.04.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, we'll go on right

through.

Under

Transportation and Communications, I noticed from the large $96,400 that was

originally budgeted to the revised at $10,000, now budgeted this year for

$30,000. Can you clarify a little bit what that will cover through

Transportation and Communications, the difference from what was originally

needed?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay, so Budget '16-'17

has decreased as a result of the detailed line-by-line expenditure review of

dropped balances over several years.

MR. BRAZIL:

Even though we budgeted

higher amounts, it was deemed that it wasn't necessary because of the

expenditure last year.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

So there was a review

done over several years and it was deemed it wasn't necessary.

MR. BRAZIL:

No, I understand.

Purchased Services; $20,000 budged, $7,000 used. I know it's a small amount,

$13,000, but just curious to see what services there. This is more for my own

information here, if I could, please.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's advertising.

MR. BRAZIL:

For which program, t he

whole department or the foster parents program?

MS. COCHRANE:

Mr. Brazil, could you tell me which

CHAIR:

Can you just state your name

please?

MS. COCHRANE:

Oh, sorry. I'm Rachelle

Cochrane.

Could

you tell us which account number you're using?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, Rachelle, under 1.2.01,

Purchased Services.

MS. COCHRANE:

Could I ask, just a point of clarification, have we concluded with 1.1.01?

CHAIR:

No. Actually what I'm doing

and I don't mean to confuse you because we've done it a number of ways since

we've been chairing we're just going to Mr. Brazil's time on the clock. He's

going to work up to 1.2.04.

Would

you prefer if we just went subhead for subhead? Because when I look at the whole

thing we're not going to run out of time this morning, I don't think.

MR. BRAZIL:

No.

CHAIR:

I do this because I really

want to be fair to both parties on the clock. But let's go back and stick with

1.1.01. If you have no questions, I'll move to Ms. Rogers.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, fair enough. That's a

better way to do it.

CHAIR:

Go ahead.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you.

If we

go back to 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Thanks.

Under

Transportation and Communications I know that David Brazil had already

asked about this there was a drop from '15-'16 budget and revised by $26,000.

Can you tell me what had been planned and what was not completed?

MS. COCHRANE:

That budget line has been budgeted for much more substantive travel than we

actually do. So for example, five

trips to Labrador could

result in those costs. On a historical basis, the Minister's Office

traditionally makes one trip. When we looked at our line by line we determined

we haven't been spending that money, so it was prudent for us to reduce the

budget.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

And

under Supplies that's okay, we can pass through that.

Purchased Services; what you may have anticipated purchasing and decided not to?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yeah. Advertising, media monitoring, printing, meeting costs, entertainment: a

number of things like that.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

And

1.2.01

CHAIR:

No, we'll call that now.

established that we'll go point for point.

MS. ROGERS:

Oh, you're going to call

each little sub-line.

CHAIR:

Yes. Is that okay?

MS. ROGERS:

Sure.

CHAIR:

All right.

Shall

1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK:

1.2.01.

CHAIR:

1.2.01.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Also, I

want to say thank you very much for your time here this morning and thank you

for your incredible work. I know how difficult and complex the work in this

particular department can be, but how so very, very vital.

And I

know how difficult it is under the particular financial circumstances that we

find ourselves, the fiscal reality of the province, and which probably, more

than likely, places extra strain on families around the province. I want to

thank you so very, very much for your passion and compassion which is what is

really needed in this kind of work, and thank you for being here this morning.

Under

General Administration, Executive Support, in Transportation and Communications

again we see a big drop from the budgeted and revised amount in '15'16.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The amount of travel to

regions was lower again than anticipated and the department reduced

discretionary spending.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

wonder, again, with the particular fiscal realities that we're seeing, also the

fact that we see such an increase in the number of kids in care when one would

hope we'd see the actual opposite, you don't see a need for more travel to meet

with in different regions to see what's going on.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay.

Some of

the work has been online through links. Also, since I've started, the Aboriginal

population they have come and met with us. So that has also happened, the

Aboriginal governments.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, because that's such a

significant reduction.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yeah. That was an

evaluation over a number of years and then the dropped balances.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Professional Services; what kinds of Professional Services had you anticipated

in '15-'16? We see that none of that was spent, and now there's also a

significant reduction.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay, so it would have been to hire outside expertise, consultants, to

advise and/or assist with special projects which may arise from time to time.

MS. ROGERS: The

evaluation of the Level 4 placements that's coming up now this year, would that

come out of this budget?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's completed.

MS. ROGERS:

It's completed?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The evaluation is completed. We've completed it.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, and will that be made available?

MS. COCHRANE:

We have done the evaluation internally. We have had extensive discussions with

each of our four service providers. We've required them to file an action plan

on any deficiencies that were noted, and we have had regular monitoring done of

that plan. So we're more than confident that the results of that evaluation have

been addressed and that our new services going into '16-'17 are as per our

policy.

In terms of making it public, we have asked. We sought

advice from our legal counsel and they have advised us that the evaluation would

be not in keeping with our CYCP Act, and that we would be violating our own act

if we made it public.

We've shared it with the Child and Youth Advocate. She has

been involved with our meetings with our service providers. She is I can't

speak for her, I shouldn't go that far. But I could go as far as to say she has

been very pleased with the process and how we've addressed all the issues that

have been identified.

MS. ROGERS:

Rachelle, can you tell us who did the evaluation?

MS. COCHRANE:

It was done by our fabulous policy and research folks within the department. The

work that's required on this evaluation involves a fairly extensive assessment

of whether or not the service providers were meeting with our 87 policies that

are under child protection.

In order to do that evaluation, we required expertise in

social work and those who had 20-plus years of experience. So to reach out into

the professional community we were of the opinion that we had the experts in our

department, upon which this review could be done most efficiently to respond to

the needs of our children that are in our In Care program.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Can you tell us what some of the key concerns may have

been?

MS. COCHRANE:

The number one key concern was related to the turnover of staffing. Our kids

require a very we would like to see

a more stable staffing

model. That issue did come up and each provider has filed a plan upon which they

are going to improve their HR practices to ensure that stability. So we were

quite satisfied with the responses and with the outcomes.

MS. ROGERS:

And what about the issue of

training and of staff?

MS. COCHRANE:

Yes, we were certainly pleased with some of our findings with respect to the

training. Again, where there were deficiencies, we've asked the providers, in

the plan that they file with us, to remedy any areas. Training was part of that

plan and they are on that as we speak.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

And how

is the oversight of how the homes are operated? How is that done?

MS. COCHRANE:

Our social workers visit the homes and the children in those homes monthly. They

come back and they discuss this is a regular business for us; it's part of our

operation. They come back and they meet with the clinical program supervisor and

the zone manager and they determine what actions are necessary.

addition our Corporate Services Rick Healey's branch are involved with a

daily contact with the service providers from a corporate perspective, again,

for the HR issues, for the financial administration to ensure that those homes

are operating according to provincial law.

So we

have it coming from the front line on a monthly basis and regular reporting, and

then we have it as well from corporate office.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you very much.

Purchased Services, we see that there was budget in '15-'16 of $20,000 and

$7,000 was spent. What kinds of purchased services would those include?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

That was primarily for

advertising and meeting room rentals, some printing, photocopier lease costs,

repairs and maintenance of equipment.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thanks.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I also wanted to add

that I'm very confident with the Level 4 evaluation that has occurred. And, as

the minister, I must say there's been some fantastic advancement in the last

couple of months.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, in terms of

improvements and

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

I know

that there were some challenges. And we still have the same number of houses in

the same communities?

MS. COCHRANE:

Depending on the demand, wherever the children are that's where we intend to

provide housing and supports for those children. So from time to time one may

close, it's just regular business, but others may open. Historically, in metro,

that's kind of our growth area, St. John's I shouldn't say our growth area.

That is not a great word.

MS. ROGERS:

Increased.

MS. COCHRANE:

Increased, yes, let's call it that. That's where our greatest demand is and

that's where we may move, not move the child, but we may open a home in a

different area of St. John's or close in another area. So it is a very movable

target. It depends on the needs of the child.

MS. ROGERS:

So what's happening? Why are

we having an increase in the number of kids going into care? Do we have a handle

on that?

MS. COCHRANE:

That is a million-dollar question. We have had experts here from away who are

doing our structured decision-making model and we have asked them for some

advice on that. That is a complex issue. It's so vast it's very challenging to

be able to give you a definite answer. So to say that we actually know for sure,

with a great degree of certainty, that's not something I can answer today.

MS. ROGERS:

What about, though, some

inkling? You must have some sense of what maybe some of the contributing factors

are.

MS. COCHRANE:

From our front line, we've heard concern with increased use of drug and alcohol

abuse and that, of course, creates a certain degree of volatility within

families. That's what our front line has told us.

MS. ROGERS:

In the families or with the

kids, or both?

MS. COCHRANE:

In the families, with the parents.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. It's tough.

Anything else? Any other, in terms of why

MS. COCHRANE:

We continue to have a challenge with some of our really remote communities. That

is certainly some work that we have underway. The minister mentioned a few

things we're doing with the Aboriginal governments. We're quite proud of the

advancements we've made in that area and our improvements in our relationships

with the Aboriginal governments and our goal to try to maintain the children in

their communities.

That is

going to take us quite a bit of time because we're actually trying to build

capacity in Labrador, capacity that hasn't existed, ever. We want to maintain

the standard of care for our children, as other children in the province

receive.

I must

say the work that's being done with the Aboriginal governments, through our Innu

round table and with the Inuit government, is quite extensive and it's very

positive.

MS. ROGERS:

With the issue of increased

drug and alcohol use in families, I imagine then one of the problems is

accessing help for families, whether it be rehabilitation or prevention or

MS. COCHRANE:

Well, we haven't heard that access is a challenge, from our perspective. Once

our family care action plans go into effect, then the remediation occurs with

the family and the members who need it.

I can't

say that we've seen a wait-list issue. That's not something I've heard from our

front line, that our families or the parents of the children we have in care are

waiting on wait-lists. I haven't heard that. That's what the staff are advising

is the number one issue is the increased use of substance abuse.

MS. ROGERS:

We have to figure out why

that's happening.

Okay,

thanks.

MS. COCHRANE:

If I could, Minister, can I just continue on?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. COCHRANE:

I've asked that question many times with our regional directors and our

management team. Income levels affect that as well. Our whole way we live,

people who are mobile, flying in and out, things like that, are leading to a

bunch of new social problems that we, as a province, historically, haven't had a

lot of experience with.

In some

of our rural regions, they have said that some of that fly in and fly out that

we've seen, historically, into Alberta. We're not sure where the trend is going

to take us in the out-years, but I can promise you it is an active discussion

with our management team all the time.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Is that it for you, Ms.

Rogers, on 1.2.01.

MS. ROGERS:

It is.

Thank

you very much.

CHAIR:

Mr. Brazil didn't have

anything else on that?

MR. BRAZIL:

I'm good on that section.

CHAIR:

So we'll call that one.

Shall

1.2.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.2.01 carried.

CHAIR:

Time is pretty much out, so

I'll go back to Mr. Brazil on the clock.

I'll

ask the Clerk to call the next subhead.

CLERK:

1.2.02.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.2.02 carry?

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Under Salaries in Corporate

Services there, I'm just curious to see the major decrease from what was

budgeted to what was revised, to now what's being put as the Estimates for this

year. I know you mentioned, Minister and I can appreciate the challenges of

recruiting staff, particularly in some of the remote places. Can you explain

exactly the difference there in the salary base?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

There were 60 PCNs.

That's 38 permanent and 22 temporary in Corporate Services. There were eight in

the area for the ISM project. We no longer needed those positions as that

project progresses. So that has decreased.

MR. BRAZIL:

Those positions, have they

been encompassed, the service they provided, in another way? I know the project

is completed as such.

MS. COCHRANE:

OCIO is managing that project for us, on our behalf, because it's a major IT

system and that's kind of not where our expertise is. So those positions are no

longer with CYFS. OCIO is funding them. So it's really a wash for us.

MR. BRAZIL:

A transfer, yes.

MS. COCHRANE:

It's in and out for us.

MS. ROGERS:

It's all about (inaudible).

MS. COCHRANE:

It's all a wash. It's over with OCIO.

MR. BRAZIL:

Has there been any other

decrease in actual salary units that are directly linked to providing the

services of Child, Youth and Family Services on the ground itself? And I do know

there are other headings that we'll get into later.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, definitely not.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough. That

clarifies that.

If I

can have your indulgence, I just want to ask a couple of general questions. I'm

trying to stay away from direct policy-oriented ones, but there are some that

will clarify some of the other line programs here.

The

foster child program, has funding decreased in that program this year?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No.

MR. BRAZIL:

So we're a steady line on

that. Okay, great.

The

enhanced youth program itself, allowances for youth who mainly receive services.

Is any funding cuts to those?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No.

MR. BRAZIL:

Have there been no cuts to

direct service delivery?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

That's right, no cuts.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, that's good to hear.

That's one of the things I wanted to have and out of the way.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, no front line cuts.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, perfect.

Still

under Corporate Services, Transportation and Communications is down from

originally budgeted, but up somewhat from the revised. Just clarify some of the

thoughts around that. Is it the travel ?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Continuing to use

technology, using Microsoft Lync to reduce travel expenditure, and a decrease as

a result of the line-by-line expenditure review. That's primarily what we've

been using Lync a fair bit with our managers.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, great.

I do

have another general concept question, just for clarification. The mentoring

program in Sheshatshiu, is that still continuing?

MS. COCHRANE:

The program is still in place; and, if I can say, we haven't had the success

with that program as we had hoped. What we've done is we put a I think it's a

clinical program supervisor, a position. So we've taken it from a direct

mentoring role and we put a supervisor who is now in Happy Valley, and they

mentor all of Labrador. We wanted to get the maximum use of that program. They

are still doing some work in Sheshatshiu, but it's not the same direct

mentoring. It's broader than that. It's right throughout Labrador. So we're

hoping with that, we'll have better success.

MR. BRAZIL:

Any idea of what some of the

challenges are? I know there are some unique challenges in Labrador, obviously,

but

MS. COCHRANE:

Our greatest challenge in Labrador is retention of staff. As soon as we put them

in, within a year or two, it's difficult for us to keep them there.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, I can understand that

challenge, as somebody who worked in Sheshatshiu in a previous life. So there

are some challenges there.

Madam

Chair, I'm good on that section, 1.2.02.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Are you

okay if we move to Ms. Rogers now on that section?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, sure.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Ms.

Rogers, 1.2.02.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, I have no further

questions here.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay. So we'll call that

subhead.

Shall

1.2.02 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.2.02 carried.

CLERK:

1.2.03.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.2.03 carry?

Do you

want to finish your time on the clock?

MR. BRAZIL:

Under Salaries, from $1.9

million that was budgeted to $1.572 million to $1.584 million. Can you tell me

the difference? I know there's not a big difference from the revised to

estimates for this year, but going back nearly $350,000. Are there some salaries

we don't need, we can't fill? Are they still on the books?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Vacancies, delays in

filling positions, and I'll give you some examples. Vacancies during the year

included four program and policy development specialists, one clerk typist and

one social worker. We had a long-term vacancy.

MR. BRAZIL:

I do realize you've

mentioned it and I can appreciate it challenges in rural Newfoundland being

able to fill those positions. Is there any thought process or any new creative

way of trying to recruit?

I know

years ago there would be additional incentives, depending on where you were.

There were incentives out of the School of Social Work as part of that. Have we

been talking to the school to talk about how we approach that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

There were additional

incentives in place. We just cannot keep the social workers in Labrador.

MR. BRAZIL:

So everything is still in

place there?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Turnover is really

large.

MR. BRAZIL:

Out of curiosity and I

hope somebody would know it the number of social workers that graduate these

days, are they in line with what they were for the last number of years?

MS. COCHRANE:

There has been no change in our ability to access social workers. Obviously, our

faculty of social workers is our number one source of recruitment, and we get

them from many other provinces as well, which is a good thing for us. So we have

broad-based social workers.

It's

not the issue of supply; it's the issue of whether or not they want to remain in

those communities long term. We have provided all the benefits, the Northern

Allowances, the travel, we even provide housing. There's not one benefit that's

in the toolbox that we don't use in Labrador. I guess recruitment is not a

problem in all our communities in Labrador, but there are some pockets, some

different communities that cause us considerable challenge for recruitment.

We have

engaged the Aboriginal government's minister on the recruitment and they're

working with us constantly to try to get if there are people who are of

Aboriginal decent, if we could get them hired, we absolutely do.

MR. BRAZIL:

Exactly, it makes sense.

Just

out of clarification, are the graduates leaving the province? Are they going in

the private sector, keeping in mind social work is a very oriented, specific

skill set?

MS. COCHRANE:

We've met with the Association of Social Workers on that issue, and we are the

number two recruiter of social workers. The health boards are the number one.

Certainly, there is still a fair bit of work, we understand, for social workers

in Newfoundland. We're number two, so we were pretty pleased with that.

We meet

with the association as well on a regular basis, just to collaborate and see if

there are ways we can enhance our recruitment in Labrador.

MR. BRAZIL:

Perfect. Thank you.

Transportation and Communications, I notice from what was budgeted, $141,300 to

$24,000 and that may be relevant to the fact of having less social workers in

the field to $47,000. I have a concern, particularly in some of these remote

areas, of getting people there to assess exactly how you'd better address some

of the particular needs with the social workers. Your assessment on that, is

that enough to cover what you anticipate?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes. Again, it was the

continued use of technology has proven to be very successful. That's the mode we

have been using a fair bit. So I'm satisfied that these numbers will meet our

needs.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

Under

Professional Services, you clarified the $442,000, which was a substantial

amount, to $29,400 down to $49,800. What's the variance there, please?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The Professional

Services budget is primarily for the completion of the structured

decision-making project and other consultants' contracts; no expenditure related

to SDM in 2015-'16, since SDM implementation is delayed. We're waiting on the

development of the ISM. So it's all technology, and it's one of the

recommendations we're trying to put in place.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

Another

general one, if you could answer. The fly-in, fly-out process, is that still in

the budget, still at the same rate of support?

MS. COCHRANE:

We use that program. That is our number one tool right now of getting full-time

social workers in the region. It is very expensive but it's the number one tool,

and we will continue to use it to service those communities. We have our

supervisors on a fly-in, fly-out and we have our social workers on a fly-in,

fly-out.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough. I'm glad to see

that still exists because I see it as a tool for being able to track and retain.

Madam

Chair, I'm good on 1.2.03.

CHAIR:

Okay.

So I'll

move to Ms. Rogers on 1.2.03.

MS. ROGERS:

I'm fine with that.

CHAIR:

You're fine.

Okay,

we'll call that.

CLERK:

1.2.03.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.2.03 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.2.03 carried.

CLERK:

1.2.04.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.2.04 carry?

MR. BRAZIL:

I'm just going to ask one

quick question.

CHAIR:

One quick one, then we'll

move to Ms. Rogers.

Okay.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, clarification there and

it may answer both of our questions, for Gerry also.

Operating: Property, Furnishings and Equipment, what are we talking about in

that one purchase there?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Side by sides.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, I thought so.

I'm

good on that section.

CHAIR:

Ms. Rogers, did you have

anything on 1.2.04.

MS. ROGERS:

I just have some general

questions, but I'm fine with the actual numbers there.

Will

there still be a review of the act, including the youth services, this year?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, there will still be

a review. It has to be started by June and we are started.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

So it's

already started?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

Is the

department reviewing home intervention services to determine additional supports

to keep children in the home, such as more counselling, parent coaching,

financial support?

MS. COCHRANE:

This is another thing we're pretty proud of. It's a great (inaudible) so I'm

going to push it now while I can.

Our

Protective Intervention Program; we inherited policies that came from all the

RHAs, regional health authorities. Last year and this took us about six months

we reviewed, with our front line, policy in every region, and we developed

provincial policies that would help standardize our practices, including our

counselling for families, our drug addiction, things that we help with all the

time to help families be better families.

Those

programs were finalized, I would think, within the last four or five months. So

we have standard policies. Our front line has been trained and our supervisors

are actively encouraging the use of those programs.

We have

not cut any of the funding for that Protective Intervention Program.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. So we know there has

been an increase in the number of kids coming into care. What's the plan to

address that?

MS. COCHRANE:

We released, on our website, the minister's transition book this year. On our

website you will see it's noted as a very serious problem for us. During our

leg. review that the minister mentioned is coming up, we flagged that as our

number one concern.

We will

be asking all our stakeholders, and we have reached out to anyway I apologize,

I can't recall the name. There's a group in the province who have come to us and

said: if we had to help you with anything, what could it be? We said could you

please help us with the number of the increase in our children coming into care.

We think it's a huge problem; the government wants to deal with this issue.

They

are having a symposium towards the end of May and we're presenting. It's all

about the number of kids in care and what we as a province sorry, community

could do to help advance that. CYFS can't deal with that issue on its own. This

is a whole social issue for all this province and they're taking this on. So

we're hopeful, if we put all community and I mean all; all police forces,

everybody. Everybody will be invited to this symposium, and at least we'll start

to at least have a public discussion as to the ways we can help to change that

number.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

I have

a great school; I have a great junior high school in St. John's Centre called

Holy Cross Junior High, which has just been slated to close now. It's very

interesting because there are about 108 students there right now, but that's

because the feeder system has changed, which diminishes the population of the

kids in that school.

Thirty-eight per cent of those kids have exceptionalities. Those kids walk to

school, and it's been really interesting to see how their marks have increased

and gotten better over the past few years with some of the extra programs that

the school is doing by involving the community, by volunteer work from teachers.

They have a basketball program that anybody can play basketball. So these kids

walk to school, they have after-school tutoring, they have leadership programs.

Now, they're all going to be bused to a different school.

A lot

of these kids come from very economically challenged families, extremely

stream there are a high number of exceptionalities, they're going to Brother

Rice;

whereas, in the French stream in Brother Rice, they don't have the same

level of exceptionalities.

Some of

these kids are late for school, but then the teachers and the principal can call

home and the kids can get to school. If these kids miss the bus in the morning,

they're not going to get to school that day.

I would

hope that maybe in your symposium and the research that you do, that you look at

the impact on the children's lives of schools, and whether and again, any kind

of after-school program these kids won't be able to go to because they have to

get on the bus and go home. A lot of their families don't have cars. So I would

hope, then, that some of those factors are explored.

These

kids had a great breakfast program and a great lunch program, and I believe this

move will impact truancy, a kid's confidence, their exposure to all kinds of

support systems. So I would think that what that school was able to do is

prevent some problems that and we know volatile that time is in a children's

life, particularly if there are problems at home.

We see

that there was a real problem in adoptions, in the backlog of adoptions as well,

that there was a commitment to have assessments done over a certain period of

time. Can someone please address what was happening there in adoptions?

MS. COCHRANE:

We asked Christine Osmond. She's our Director of Adoptions, she's with us today.

She'll speak to what we've done on the adoptions program.

MS. OSMOND:

We have certainly been working very closely from provincial office with the

regional teams who are responsible for the assessment work and Donna O'Brien,

who is the assistant deputy minister. She isn't here today, but she's working

very closely with our RDs and our managers and tracking very closely some of

those child profiles that need to be completed in order for children to be

matched with prospective adoptive families, and also working, putting a real

push on getting assessments completed for families who have applied to adopt.

I would

also like to add of course we're very challenged in many areas in child welfare.

Another place we are challenged is finding families who of course will be able

to adopt some of our, what we would consider, kind of harder-to-place children.

It's quite challenging. They're older, there are larger sibling groups; very

complicated decisions in regard to when children have to leave communities or do

you separate siblings, which we try never to do unless there's some sort of an

extraordinary circumstance.

MS. ROGERS:

Right.

MS. OSMOND:

But as you mention, Ms. Rogers, some of the challenges these children face can

be quite extensive too, and just trying to find families to match is one of our

ongoing pieces of work as well.

MS. ROGERS:

Christine, can you talk to

me a little bit about the backlog in child profiles. It seems, from the report

of the department that the backup was considerable in terms of I can't

remember what was the expected time to have a profile completed and what was

actually happening. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

MS. OSMOND:

It's always intended that your quickest time frame, once a child is actually

available. So, first of all, you have to have a child who's legally available

for adoption. Just because they're in care, as you know, doesn't necessarily

mean they're available. So we have to have a continuous custody on a child

before that could happen. So then you move through the court process on that

one. And then it's the actual planning for the child in regard to looking at the

full child's circumstances and getting all their information together.

So the

social workers have been very much tasked with getting these adoption profiles

completed in the most timely of fashions, particularly for younger children in

regard to where they aren't going to be staying in their placements. We work

very hard with our foster parents, who've been a fabulous resource for us. They

do a lot, particularly of our older child adoptions and children with more

complex needs. They've been fabulous.

every success we have in foster care also often helps the adoptions program.

We've been quite good with our adoption subsidy program in trying to support

foster families to be able to move towards the legal relationship with children,

and keeping all their resources in place as well. I think there's a real

conversation that occurs in this department in regard to knowing the

impermanency that has to happen for these children and recognizing their

attachments, their relationships and their age. The work is quite intensive.

MS. ROGERS:

Is there a staff shortage

issue for doing that work?

MS. COCHRANE:

Not that I'm aware of; that

hasn't been raised. Of course, it's busy times in all the caseloads. We

certainly task social workers with trying to be able to prioritize the order of

their work and respond to it as they can, yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

The

wonderful ratios that everyone is working towards in terms of a social worker

with 20 cases, a team led by six social workers and a clinic program supervisor,

how are all those ratios doing?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We're maintaining the

ratios pretty good. Of course it's very fluid as the cases go up and the cases

come down. By moving and closing Child, Youth and Family Services offices, we're

not affecting the ratios. The place where we have the biggest issue with ratios

again is Labrador and, of course, that's simply because we can't keep social

workers in Labrador. It's difficult to maintain the 1-20 in Labrador.

MS. ROGERS:

But in terms of the six

social workers and a supervisor team, that's good?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, that's good.

MS. ROGERS:

Management specialists?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Life skill coordinators? All

that's good?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay great.

I have

run into a situation with some of my constituents about the issue of whether

files are open or closed or gone. It seems it's easier to get your pardon from

convictions for major crimes than it is to have a file closed from CYFS. Can you

talk to me a little bit about that?

CHAIR:

Right after this, Ms.

Rogers, we'll move back, given the time on the clock.

MS. ROGERS:

Sure, thank you.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We're very cautious in

closing files. There are thorough assessments done prior to and it does take

time.

MS. ROGERS:

I guess the issue, for

instance, I've had with a few constituents is that if a grandmother is taking

care of a grandchild and there's been no problem with that grandmother but

there's a file open because that grand mom is taking care of the child and then

she goes to apply for a job where she needs a clearance it's just flags in

saying yes, there's a file.

MS. COCHRANE:

Certainly a grand mom would

not flag on a clearance if she is taking care of her grandchild. I can only

speak from policy; the flags that are on files are if people have previous

history with CYFS, not if you're a foster parent or grand mom who is taking care

of the child. The flags are related to whether or not it's called our child

protection records check program and that's used quite extensively, maybe 1,200

to 1,500 per year.

And

CYFS requires it, as we require it from all our service providers, that everyone

has a clearance before they work with children. I think that's the flags

people call them flags, but it's a clearance certificate saying that you had no

previous issue related to child protection in order to work with children.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, so we have an increase

of oh sorry, I'll come back to this.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

You're

finished specifically with 1.2.04?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, thank you.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.2.04 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.2.04 carried.

CHAIR:

Now, we'll start with Mr.

Brazil on 2.1.01.

MR. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

For

clarification on the $5.3 million decrease in Salaries, is that attributed to

the 12 per cent vacancy we have with social workers?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The reduction was a

result of a detailed line-by-line expenditure review taken by the budgeting

division, so it was slippage, primarily.

MR. BRAZIL:

Obviously it's a decrease in

budget, but is it a decrease in the number of positions that are available in

the field?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No.

MS. COCHRANE:

We've looked at our historical budget. When we went through this line-by-line

review process with Treasury, we historically looked back over how much had we

spent over the last four or five years annually. We have a fair degree of churn

in our caseload because our social workers are fairly mobile; they're young and

they move from time to time. We have other areas, particularly in Labrador,

where it is hard to recruit, so we have found that we've had a little bit over

$5 million on an annual basis that we haven't been spending in our salary

budgets just because of our churn in our caseload. It is just it is what it is.

So the

salary money that we have going into '16-'17, the $44.8 million, we know that's

what we've been spending over the last four or five years annually. There won't

be any change in our front line because of that reduction.

MR. BRAZIL:

Even with that encased, you

can still maintain your ratios without any challenges, other than the

recruitment challenges that are there?

MS. COCHRANE:

Absolutely. That budget reflects our current staffing model of 1-20 and our 1-6

social workers.

MR. BRAZIL:

Would you have the

flexibility where you've given up some of the money there after reassessment if

there was deemed a need somewhere else to be able to recalculate bringing some

of that back?

MS. COCHRANE:

We've asked Treasury Board

and they've indicated that if we have any trouble in our salary budget or

anything else for that matter, because our caseload is fluid, as you know

we've indicated our in-care caseload has been growing by about 58 children a

year. Of course, they're the most expensive model. We have a commitment from

Treasury Board that if we need that additional money, there is a reserve set

aside for us and we can get access to that money. We are quite satisfied that we

will get it if we need it.

MR. BRAZIL:

That is good to hear.

question, knowing that one of the bigger expenses and overhead is children that

we have to put in hotels and efficiency units how many do we have in that in

comparison to the numbers that we have in our caseloads on a given (inaudible) I

know it fluctuates.

MS. COCHRANE:

We have no hotels right now.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We don't have any hotels

now; we're not using the hotel model.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

Our

whole foster parent program is still moving forward?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It is.

MR. BRAZIL:

It's still very successful.

I mean hats off, it's a good program. There seems to be a fair bit of uptake

relevant to that.

Under

Supplies, a dramatic decrease from what was budgeted. What's not necessary now

or what's being covered that's not an issue?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Again, the department

reduced discretionary spending where possible.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, so it's a budget

exercise

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It was a budget

exercise, yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

Not expected to have any

impact on the delivery of services, I would anticipate.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, not at all.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, good.

I am

curious again, how many children are outside in care, out of the province?

MS. COCHRANE:

That's a number we look at

weekly and it changes on a frequency basis. On average it's about 30 to 35 on a

weekly basis, if I can recall just from the charts I see. Sometimes it's up two

and three and it's down, as they come home or as we send away. Sometimes we also

have multiple children in a family who have to go to out-of-province treatment

and again that could be two or three in any one family. That's why the number

deviates a couple from week to week.

MR. BRAZIL:

How successful have we been

in bringing some of the kids back into the province with the new programs and

the new sites that we've put in place?

MS. COCHRANE:

There is a case plan put

around every child that returns. For example, on Friday we had two workers who

flew to Manitoba. We are bringing back four children and we have foster homes

or, in some cases, grandparents are accepting children. So as they come back, we

have a case plan for every child when they get discharged from an

out-of-province treatment facility.

MR. BRAZIL:

When they're sent out of the

province is it because we can't find a proper setting here, or are there some

special needs that these individuals may have that we can't provide right now?

MS. COCHRANE:

Historically, it's special needs. It's been determined that the needs of that

child can be best addressed in that treatment facility outside the province.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Fair enough.

I have

just one other and it's more policy and I do understand it's been challenged

the Child and Youth Advocate and critical incidents. So there's still a good

working relationship with the advocate's office to ensure that reports are done

in a timely fashion within the time frames?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, we are moving ahead

on the reporting of critical incidents and deaths, and there's a fair bit of

work that's been done.

As you

know, there are six years of work done on it prior to us taking the file over in

December. It is moving ahead.

MR. BRAZIL:

I'm good on that section,

Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay, we'll move to Ms.

Rogers on 2.1.01.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I can't

remember now if all the offices that are closing, have all those locations been

announced?

MS. COCHRANE:

In '15-'16 we closed three offices: Piccadilly, Stephenville Crossing and

Burgeo. In '16-'17 we're closing Gambo and Port Saunders.

MS. ROGERS:

Those were announced.

MS. COCHRANE:

For us as a department, operationally I have to use that word because we

closed in '15-'16 and then we've closed a few more in '16-'17. Operationally, we

are trying to maintain offices whereby we can keep a caseload of social workers

of one in 20 and a supervisor ratio of one in six. We think that is the best

model for decision making for the children that need to come into care.

From

time to time, we have offices caseloads are falling in some communities as the

population is aging and it's becoming regionalized or urbanized, if I can say

that.

As the

permanent administrators of the department, we always look at those ratios. It's

a regular item. We have our manager of HR with us because she produces a report

every week. So if we see, historically, that there are files in our caseload

that we cannot maintain a sufficient caseload and the professionalism that we

need to maintain for the decisions that we make, we will be recommending further

closures on an annual basis.

But at

this point in time, we are looking at other offices. We will always do that. If

we find there is not a sufficient caseload in an office that would warrant

keeping a full-time social worker just, one for money, but the other thing

would be for clinical program decision making. It needs a broader lens when

we're making decisions on children.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Again,

the issue of the increase of the number of kids coming into care or needing

services is quite alarming, considering that I don't think our population growth

is as high. So it is troubling what's really happening.

I've

always found that the mandate of the department, which is right up front in all

documents, is I always feel quite curious about it. Child, Youth and Family

Services is mandated to protect children and youth from maltreatment by their

parents, and support their healthy development and well-being through programs

and services. I've always found it to be such a negative way to position really

what the department is and what it should be doing.

I would

think that the approach would be to support families and that if there's a

problem, then that's what would be dealt with as well. It's just something that

has always kind of stopped me when I've read that. And it's right up front in

all the documentation about the department.

MS. COCHRANE:

Ms. Rogers, if I could, I guess part of our I'll just address the increase in

the number of kids coming into care. We've also heard from the front line that

it's likely our historical caseload may not be a strong enough indicator,

because now with a ratio of 1 in 20, maybe our social workers are getting out

and identifying issues that probably may not have been in the past. Again, it's

anecdotal, but we've heard that as well.

You

talk about the prevention. Our number one goal is to keep children with their

families. Trust us; we don't want to take any child into care that doesn't need

to come into care. It's very disturbing to us on a daily basis when we see that

happening.

That's

why we put an aggressive and I mean we were six months, we had a regional team

and we had a provincial office team. There must have been 10 or 15 of us on a

daily basis on our protective intervention policies. We wanted to standardize

provincial policies so that every social worker was operating with the same

tools.

We now

have that. That became effective, I think in January fully operational as of

January. So every social worker now has the same counselling tools. Any drug

prevention things that we need to give a family, everyone now is aware of what

the benefits are that we can give to every family.

we're hopeful. Again, this is not an exact science. This is not engineering,

this is a very social science area. So we're hoping, with the new protective

intervention policies standardized right across the province, that we would

start to help all of our social workers provide better supports to the families.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

MR. HEALEY:

If I could add to that.

We're

also implementing, in the coming weeks, standardized policies and procedures for

our intervention service model, which I think is kind of one of the areas that

you're going towards. It's basically providing hands-on support to families, to

provide support for families so they can better deal with behavioural issues

with their children. As opposed to children coming out, we're going to be

supporting the children in their family. Giving the parents the tools and the

skills to better be able to deal with the challenges they face. Those policies

are going to be rolled out within the next couple of weeks; another example of

standardizing right across the provinces.

MS. ROGERS:

They will be announcement of

that, I'm sure.

Minister, was the department consulted

vis--vis some of the extra financial stressors on families that the budget will

present? Was your department consulted on what that impact might be on families,

the extra stressors due to the levy, increased taxes and drops in some of the

services?

MS. COCHRANE:

We accessed all and we were asked for feedback into all the Government Renewal

Initiative proposals. We provided that feedback. We were quite engaged. We had

the list. They asked us to select which ones we want. We did our review and

provided comments to the respective departments.

MS. ROGERS:

Does the department have any

concern about the extra financial stressors on families, particularly families

with low-income, medium-income?

MS. COCHRANE:

The increase in our caseload was not just happening last year or this year. It

has been happening and the question is: Why? It happened during a time of

economic growth. We can't just say because of this it's going to affect our

caseload.

I was

really disturbed, and everybody in our department, the ministers, and the

previous ministers before them, have been quite disturbed with the increase in

our caseload, irrespective of the economy.

There

are stressors out there within families and that will always exist. No

disrespect to those families because I'm sure they, like all families, work very

hard to keep their children but we, as a community, as a society in this

province, need to look at this broader. It's not just CYFS. It's not just a

Justice issue. It's not just a mental health issue. It spans throughout the

whole province.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Can we

also have a breakdown by region of the number and ages of children and youth in

kinship arrangements and in care?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, we can provide

that.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great. Thank you.

MS. COCHRANE:

If I could, Ms. Rogers. For

privacy reasons, we will give you that data by region, where their numbers are

greater than five.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. I can appreciate that.

Thank you.

MR. BRAZIL:

Could you also share that

with us?

MS. COCHRANE:

Oh, absolutely.

CHAIR:

Is that it for 2.1.01?

MS. ROGERS:

I just have one more

question.

Are

there any new in-home supports being offered to help keep children in the home,

for instance, extra transportation, respite work, behaviour aid, child care,

infant safety?

MR. HEALEY:

As Rachelle mentioned we did

an extensive review of our protection programs and policies in the last four to

five months. One of the not necessarily a new program but certainly a new

policies has been the intervention services. We're very proud of our

Intervention Services. We feel this is going to be a direct service to go into

the home to help our families on protective intervention.

While

the Department of Health has had that program for quite some time, it's a

relatively new program to CYFS. We're really optimistic this is going to provide

some real strength and support to families on protection intervention.

MS. ROGERS:

That's the new policies that

you're going to be rolling out in a few weeks.

MR. HEALEY:

Yes, within probably the new

three to four weeks.

MS. ROGERS:

Perfect. Great. Thank you

very much.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Any

further questions on 2.1.01 that I'll need to come back to for Ms. Rogers or

shall we call that now?

MR. REID:

(Inaudible.)

Mr.

Reid, just one moment now.

Do we

need to come back to that

section for you, Ms. Rogers?

MS. ROGERS:

One (inaudible).

CHAIR:

One. Okay. I'll go to

MS. ROGERS:

Go ahead? Okay.

What is

the agreement with Key Assets and Nunavut to provide Level 4 residential

services? How is that going?

MR. HEALEY:

That's a unique agreement

whereby it's a three-part agreement between the Inuit, Key Assets and CYFS.

Basically, it is

part capacity building and it also recognizes the rights of the

being able to find housing on Inuit land. If we go through our traditional

processes of a request for proposals, we'd basically be imposing that on this

Aboriginal group.

So what

we've done, and we've worked with the Aboriginal group, they have identified Key

Assets as a partner they want to work with. What we did was we signed an

agreement with Key Assets, the Inuit government and CYFS, to provide very

similar services that we have in the province that's going to be provided in

that particular area.

We're

still working through it. We're still optimistic. I think we're on the cusp of

developing some new placements there now which we haven't had, ever, in this

particular area. People are very, very excited about it. It's a unique

opportunity to get that co-operation and coordination.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. So that's instead of

pulling the kids out of the community.

MR. HEALEY:

Yes, it was real exciting to be able to they weren't part of the original RFP

for staff residential placements, so this was an opportunity to develop

something unique, specific, for this particular population.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

CHAIR:

Okay. Ms. Rogers, I have

been lenient and I want to be fair.

MS. ROGERS:

You have, Madam Chair.

Thank

you very much.

CHAIR:

So we'll alternate back now

and Mr. Reid has a question.

MR. REID:

Yes, just a query about

social workers and the turnover in the positions. I'm just wondering in terms of

throughout the province are there certain areas for example, in Labrador we

have a high turnover. Has any research or any sort of conclusions been drawn as

to why the turnover rate is so high, overall, but particularly in areas like

Labrador?

MS. COCHRANE:

We haven't done it specifically. We do have regular meetings with our regional

management team in Labrador. Our turnover rate on the Island is not a problem.

We have maternity leaves because we have a young workforce. So on the Island,

our turnover rate is really related to maternity leaves or spousal transfer,

things like that. So we don't have a turnover rate on the Island. It's fairly

stable for the age of our workforce.

Labrador, we have regular sessions with our management team and they come

forward all the time with ways that could enhance recruitment. Our fly-in,

fly-out policy is certainly working in Natuashish. We're quite happy with that.

We would prefer to have full-time, live-in social workers in community but where

that's not possible, our fly in, fly out certainly does us a very big favour.

MR. REID:

(Inaudible) Labrador and

places like that.

MS. COCHRANE:

Our recruitment is a

Labrador issue. The other things are natural recruitment challenges.

MR. REID:

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr.

Brazil, did you have anything else on 2.1.01?

MR. BRAZIL:

No. I'm good.

CHAIR:

Ms. Rogers is good on

2.1.01.

Shall

2.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 2.1.01 carried.

CLERK:

3.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 3.1.01 carry?

We'll

start the clock for Mr. Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Just a couple of quick

questions there. Obviously there is an increase on Allowances and Assistance,

and it may have already been answered in the discussion here of some of the

incentives for families as part of that, but can you just give me a little bit

of a general idea of is it the standard across the board that we have upped

everything by 3, 4 or 5 per cent? Are there any new programs in there that there

is some uptake on for the additional $2 million? I think it's a good investment.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's just the increase

in in-care, the Level 4.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Very expensive.

MR. BRAZIL:

Is that budgeted on a

percentage basis across the board, or is it based on the number of cases that

were in Level 4s?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Number of cases.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

Grants

and Subsidies are up from what was budgeted but down a million dollars from the

revised. The rationale for there, is it uptake, is it leveling itself out from

what was originally budgeted? Is there a change in one of the categories?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Grants and Subsidies is

providing funding to the agencies to deliver the programs and services on behalf

of the department, and we're providing grants to a number of organizations to

provide direct services to clients or to provide support with the delivery of

client services. It's client support services that we're paying for here.

MR. BRAZIL:

So it's based on the number

of cases at any given time and the severity or the input or the intervention

that's necessary?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The number of children,

yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

I am

curious, the revenues, federal, from $13,544,000 and the same are budgeted; I'm

assuming that's a direct grant. The $18 million that came last year what was the

difference there?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

What actually happened

here is we were spending more money provincially on the Aboriginal population.

We went to the federal government and negotiated, and they agreed to fill the

gap and pay back the money the province was using.

MR. BRAZIL:

From the previous owed

amount, but it was a one-time shot?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, they're going to

work with us on a continuing basis.

MR. BRAZIL:

For continuation?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

That's right, yes,

because we are spending a larger amount than the province is allocated.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, great.

Earlier, the discussion around site locations and reassessing whether or not the

offices remain open and how the service would be offered when you start

evaluating that process, do you include stakeholders like the foster parents'

association, the social work school, the service groups that may be interested

in providing or partnering in services there before you make a decision that the

ratio is not there to close an office?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I just wanted to start

this and I'm going to let Rachelle finish it. This evaluation started with the

previous government, so I just wanted to take note of that.

ahead, Rachelle.

MS. COCHRANE:

We do engage the Foster Families Association. We do have regular discussions

with Diane Molloy in terms of she understands our caseload and our need to make

sure we have the professional office structure upon which to make decisions on

these children. So she will work with us to help ensure that the family

visitations that our foster families do, we find locations outside, if it's not

in our office, we will find other locations within the community upon which to

make sure we have those visitations.

So yes,

we do some consultation, but that's happening usually with a group of people who

are involved in our business. We don't do broad community consultations or

anything to that respect, but just within our own community of practice.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, Madam Chair, I'm good

with all the subhead sections there. In 3.1.01, I'm good on the questions that

the minister and her staff have answered; I appreciate that.

Right

now I don't have any other questions, so I'll pass it on to Ms. Rogers.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Brazil.

Ms.

Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

Thanks, Madam Chair.

The

Level 4, so we're seeing an increase (

a) in the number of kids coming into care,

and then it appears an increase in the number of kids going to Level 4, or is it

just that Level 4 is costing more?

MS. COCHRANE:

Sorry, when we say there are a number of kids coming into care, those kids go to

multiple sources.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. COCHRANE:

Some go to kinship arrangements, like a grandma.

MS. ROGERS:

Right, yes.

MS. COCHRANE:

Then we have another group that go to foster homes. So it's either our Level 1

or Level 2 foster homes.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. COCHRANE:

We have another group of children who need special services. They go to our

Level 3 foster homes, which is the pilot between Key Assets

MS. ROGERS:

Key Assets, yes.

MS. COCHRANE:

and our department. We've done some really great work with Key Assets this

year; the first time we broke that barrier in five years.

we've done some really good work for our children with high needs in Level 3.

Then we have around 150 to 200 and the numbers deviate, they change from time

to time who go into Level 4. If we can't find 1, 2 or 3, we would move them

into Level 4.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, I understand that.

Maybe

I'm a little bit confused here, because when we look at 3.1.01, under Allowances

and Assistance, an increase of $2 million. I thought it was stated that was an

increase for Level 4, is it?

I'm

just wondering, is there an increase in the number of kids going into Level 4?

MS. COCHRANE:

An increase in the number of

kids going into level no, I think we're fairly stable on that. I mean, it

deviates again.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, I understand that.

MS. COCHRANE:

If we can't find a foster

family, particularly our problem has been in the last year with Level 3 foster

homes. We created this level system back four or five years ago and we did some

great work with the Foster Families Association on 1s and 2s. Again, (inaudible)

that's a great resource for us, but we haven't made any major gains on Level 3

in five years, and those are our hard to place they are either sibling groups

and it's a real challenge for finding capacity, or they have special needs.

Last

year we entered into the agreement with Key Assets and now I think we've placed

13 or 14 more children 13 or 14 more children have been placed in Level 3 this

year than we've had done in the past.

MS. ROGERS:

And that's in Level 3 foster

homes.

MS. COCHRANE:

Right. It's a pilot.

MS. ROGERS:

What's the role that Key Assets is playing there?

MR. HEALEY:

When they developed a level system, Level 1 and Level 2 are our typical foster

homes. Level 3, of course, is for our special needs and large sibling groups.

The

challenge with Level 3 is that a lot of our children who we can't find a family

for are very large sibling groups. As you can imagine, if you have three or four

children in a family, there are not many people in Newfoundland who has a home

with three or four bedrooms just sitting there waiting to take foster children.

So it's not necessarily that it's a combination. Some are very challenging

children, but a lot of times it's just the number of children and it's just not

there.

What

Key Assets has done is they've helped us go out and find homes specifically for

these large sibling groups. That's where we've had the success we've had. I

can't recall the numbers right now, but certainly a number of families have

taken, like, three children.

haven't been successful in being able to identify and recruit a foster family,

or it would be very unusual for us to get a foster family that's available to

take three children. Not many people have that. So what Key Assets has done is

they go out and they assist a family in either renting a house to accommodate

these large sibling groups and that's not in our current model. This is a

pilot. What we're trying to do, we're trying to think out of the box. The goal

is to get the children with a family. That's our ultimate goal.

What

Key Assets has done is working with these families if they have a house,

that's great. If not, perhaps they can assist in renting a house that can

accommodate these large sibling groups. That's been some of the big success from

that group.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you very much.

Youth,

who have signed youth services agreements, do we still have youth ending up in

unsuitable boarding houses? How is that going?

MS. COCHRANE:

Our youth services program is relatively new. It has come in with the previous

legislative amendments back in 2011. When we do our review the minister

mentioned we were going to do a review this year that is certainly one of the

programs that will be included in our discussion paper.

haven't seen any change in our numbers in that program but we are putting it out

there when we do our legislative review, just to have a deeper discussion with

the community on how that's going.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay and we'll look at where

kids end up living and what their needs are.

What is

the status of the Supporting Youth with Transitions pilot with Choices for

Youth?

MS. COCHRANE:

We are working with Choices on a yearly basis. We've had that pilot now for

several years. The numbers under that program, our take-up rate, we had

initially hoped to have up to 100 children sorry, youth. It depends on their

age. I call them children but they're actually youth. We were hoping to have up

to 100 youth referred to that program.

haven't had as great of an uptake on that as we had hoped. I think the number of

youth may be in the range of 25, in that range. So that's why we're putting this

under the legislative review and having a discussion about are we getting value

for the money or what's going on with that program.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Are

there any other initiatives to work with some of the youth who are doing youth

services agreements? There's one with Choices. Anything else?

MS. COCHRANE:

We have our life skills coordinators outside of the Avalon. Again, we still

haven't seen the take up in that program as we had initially planned when we did

the legislative review back in 2011. So collectively, that's why we it's on

the list to be reviewed in '16-'17.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you very, very much.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Were

there any further questions on 3.1.01 from any of the Committee members? No.

Seeing no further questions, shall 3.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 3.1.01 carried.

CHAIR:

Shall the totals carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report the Estimates

of Child, Youth and Family Services carried without amendment?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Estimates of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services carried

without amendment.

CHAIR:

Now I'll ask somebody

minutes were circulated from the last Estimates meeting and we'll need someone

to adopt the minutes from April 27, Department of Justice and Public Safety.

Mr.

Reid, thank you.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

The next scheduled Estimates

meeting is, as I understand it now, 9 a.m. tomorrow in the Chamber, and that

will be Labour Relations.

Right

now, we did great with time, I'll ask for a motion to adjourn.

MR. BRAZIL:

So moved.

CHAIR:

So moved by Mr. Brazil.

Thanks

so much everyone for participating in Estimates and have a great day.

motion, the Committee adjourned.