4 VOL. 3 NO. 25 PRELIMINARY UNED ITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 6, 1981

Anril 6, 1981 Tape No. 952 DW - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. M• SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, olease Hon. members will recall last week there were a number of points of order and privilege that were raised on which I reserved rulings and I would like to give First of all, on a point of order raised on Friday by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearv) concerning the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) wanting to read a letter during presentation of petitions: I am fearful, first of all, to Permit this type of action during the presentation of petitions would lend to a very unusual precedent because the action is really more in the area of debate. And this, I do not believe, can be permitted to happen. I believe that what the hon. member for St. John's North wanted to do could have been done in a debate and would also have been much more acceptable and approcriate at that time. In this particular circumstance, leave was granted for a while and the hon. member for St.

John's North did have an opportunity to table a letter that he was attempting to read and, in fact, he did table it. But it should be clear that unless leave is granted for such an action or such a type of discussion during presentation of petitions,I believe the Chair has a responsibility to insist that hon. members speak dearly to the prayer of the petition and the number of signatures attached to it, and let matters of this nature be handled during regular debate. Also on a point of order raised by the hon. the member for St.

John's North on Friday concerning unoarliamentarv language directed towards the office of the Lieutenant Governor by the hon. member for LaPoile, 2681

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 952 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I have reviewed Hansard and find, first of all, that certain remarks have been recorded. How- ever, they are by no means complete and part of what was said was found to be inaudible as it was extremely difficult to hear from the tapes exactly what was being said because there seemed to be too many comments and asides that were being made back and forth all at the same time. I have to point out also that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearv) did not have the floor, was not recognized by the Chair and, of course, 4 2682

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 953 NM - 1 S MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : during subsequent debate on the point of order the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) indicated that, "if anything it was a compliment, a message of con- grau1ations to the people who made the appointment." MR. NEARY: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: So the comments made by the hon. member for LaPoile during the debate on the point of order would indicate that the hon. member did not intend any unparliamentary words towards the office of the Lieutenant- Governor.

So the Chair, under these circumstances, has great difficulty in ruling that there would be a point of order in that instance. And reference was made to the point of privilege raised by the hon. member for LaPoile last week concerning the reading of letters by the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) in providing an answer to a question. First of all I can say, as is the Chair's obligation,of course,that there does not appear to be a prima fade case of breach of privilege.

But in the way of general comments,while there are references and rules that do not permit members asking questions to quote extracts from documents and letters and the like there are no similar rules that I can find for ministers in answering questions.And I can only assume from that that it may be because obviously there are occasions when there might be a necessity to quote from documents or letters in order to provide complete answers. But I repeat, there are no rules whereby I can disallow such a thing from occurring.

However again in the way of a general comment so that this does not serve as a precedent strict ruling let me quote from May, nineteenth edition, page 424, where it says in part, referring to quoting from letters in debate,and our general practice in this House of course is if a member quotes from a letter or document in debate he must table it, May says, "By general acquiescence very wide 2683

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 953 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Sioms): discretion is left to the Chair as to enforcement of this rule. So I will leave it at that as the • Chair will clearly have that same discretion in the future. STATENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, as the House will recallover the past number of months we have identified a number of sites relating to onshore developments petroleum activities and that fifteen of those areas have been frozen under the authority of the Development Areas (Lands) Act.

Today I am announcing the inclusion of one other site, which was mentioned in the renort that we tabled in this House about three weeks agc and was sc±fjed then only as the Come By Chance area,and now more specifically defining that by a plan and a schedule, a legal description attached. It is actually closer to Arnold's Cove, so it will now be known as Come By Chance - Arnold's Cove, C a site relating a

April 6,1981 Tape No. 954 AH-1 MR. WINDSOR: to onshore developement relatina to petroleum and cas for concrete platform construction. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSP: Hardly any kind of startling news, N! Mr. Speaker, and very timely for the particular site - AN HON.MEMBER: Heave it out of you, 'Tom' MR.

LUSH: - I am sorry- but needless to say we here, Sir, on the Opposition side are delighted for any area, any site, any community that gets designated with respect petroleum developments in this Province and we are broadminded enough to support any community in this Province, any area, and naturally we are delighted that it looks like Arnold's Cove meets these requirements for the time being. And we hope that over the next few weeks that we will be hearing of others,but we are delighted and we hope that it will become a definite onshore area and providing much needed employment for the people in that area.

OPAL QUESTIONS MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I notice there are a number of ministers not in their seat today. Would the House Leader indicate if the Premier or the ministers will be here today to answer questions? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.MAPSHALL: I notice, Mr. Speaker, that a lot of people in the Opposition, including the Leader of the. Opposition who is not only absent today but has been absent for the past ten days,and I would imagine they are in the same general vicinity. MR. NEARY: A supplementary,Mr. Speaker. 2685

April 6,1981 Tape No. 954 AH-2 MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Of course, Mr. Speaker, the House knows that it is not members of the Opposition who answers auestions.It is ministers who answer questions - that is if you can get any answers out of them. We have not been able to get any answers out of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

I would like to ask - perhaps in N/ the absence of the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) if he could tell us why it was necessary to install searchlights on the top, on the roof of the Workers' Compensation Building over the weekend? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: I imagine to illuminate the grounds, Mr. Speaker. MR. WEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.WEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is beginning to look like Hogan's Heroes down there.

Would the hon. gentleman tell us now if the next rnove,apart from installing the searchlights that I believe had to be switched of f on Friday night because the people, the residents in the area complained - I know they complained to me -but now are we going to see the rnachinegun turrets set up on the roof of the Workers' Compensation building? What is the next move? Would the hon. gentleman tell us why it was 2686

April 6, 1981 Tape 955 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: so necessary to protect, ut the searchlights on to light up the grounds? Is there any reason for it? Will they be like Hogan's Heroes now, have the big - what do you call these things at penitentiaries? AN HON. MEMBER: Towers. MR. NEARY: The towers up with the fellows there with the machine guns, is that going to be the next mc-.- could the minister tell the House? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have no information about machine guns, howitzers, cannon or other instruments of ordnance. MR.

NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman tell us how many complaints resulted from having these searchlights - I do not know if they are left over from the Second World War or what - but how many complaints came in to the Workers' Compensation Board or to the government? I know I received a number myself and I under- stand from raising the matter with one of the members of the Board that they were shut off.

Would the hon. gentleman indicate how many complaints they had and will the search- lights be put back on or will we have a blackout now for the duration of the strike? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, at this point in time I do not have that information. If it comes to my attention I will certainly give it to the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR, LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the President of Treasury Board and in addition to these 2687

April 6, 1981 Tape 955 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: security measures taken, as indicated by my hon. colleague, I wonder if the minister is in a position to indicate to the House what new developments may have taken place over the weekend with respect to labour problems in the Province, particularly those. labour problems relating to the public service? MR. SPEAKER (Sirrms) : Further questions? The hon. the member for Terra Nova, a supplementary. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the President of Treasury Board, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) heard me. It is uncharacteristic of him not to answer a question.

AN HON. MEMBER: Was he asleep? MR. LUSH: I do not believe he was paying attention. AN HON. MEMBER: He was asleep. MR. LUSH: That is right. MR. SPEAKER: In that case we will allow the question to be asked again,if you like. MR. LUSH: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, I will frame the question again. My question to the Minister of Finance was whether he could indicate to hon. members whether or not there have been any new developments with respect to labour problems over the weekend, particularly with respect to labour disputes within the public service? 2688

April 6, 1981 Tape Mo. 956 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Sioms) : Thp hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I apologize. I was sort of concentrating on an interesting document here and I thought the hon. member had directed his auestion elsewhere. Over the weekend, I do not know if there was much hapoening over the weekend.

I might just in- dicate to the House that there had been meetings last week, I think on Thursdy,btween representatives of Treasury Board, representatives of Labour and Mannower and representatives of NAPE in regard to the two ongoino labour disoutes,at the Colleoe and at the Workers' Comoensation Board. We endeavored to find out beforehand what the subject matter of the meeting migh- be so that we would he in a position to resoond expeditiously, and hopefully positively, but we could not get any indication from the other side as to the nature of the matter to be brought up. And indeed, Mr.

Speaker, the meeting took nlar'e despite that and we were somewhat surprised, Mr. Speaker, when the meeting did take place that indeed there was no new matter brough- up and the union representatives in- dicateH that they had not oarticularly desired a meeting to bring up any new matter. This was a bit surprising in view of the remarks made in this House and other rmarks such as that made by the President of NAPE on a television programme last week. The impression given, I think, generally was that the union had new initiatives and wished to discuss new matters and so on and so forth. That did not occur.

There was nothing new, no new initiative and there was just e general discssion about thinns and that was all. Now, that is in regard to that. In regard to the teachers' situationas members will recall, the government has indicated that they would respond when the ?ed- eration of School Boards have had an ooportunit' to view the conciliation board report. That meeting is oncoing today, Mr. Sneaker, and I would expect that we will be informed of the 269

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 956 EL - 2 D1.COLLTNS: decision of the Federation, Derhaps later today, oerhaps sometime tomorrow and we will co-ordinate our response to that with the Federation. The Federation and Treasury Board are looked upon by the conciliation board both as the employer so we co-ordinate our response in that regard. In regard to Farm Products, hon. members may be aware that there was a unanimous concil- iation board reoort in regard to the Farm Products situation, and 2690

April 6, 1981 Tape 957 PR - 1 DR. COLLINS: we have been informed that the union unit there has rejected that unanimous report. And I believe they had informed the hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) that they have taken a strike vote which will put them in a position possibly to have a strike in roughly a week's time.

A representative, an official from the Department of Labour and Manpower has since been in touch with Treasury Board and I believe may well have been in touch with the union, and there may be something come out of that initiative on the part of the officer from the Department of Labour and Manpower. I think that is all of the information I can.think of it at the moment. Now all of that did not occur during the weekend but it occurred around the last few days. MR. LUSH: A suppimentary. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Sirnins) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the thing that immediately concerns me is the situation with the workers at the College of Trades and Technology, and the workers at the Workers' Compensation Board, and I am a little bit confused by what the minister is saying. Last week there seemed to be some indication that there was a willingness on both sides to get back to the bargaining table. Now in the response from the minister to the question that I asked,I am not able to gather from that just what is happening. If I could be just allowed a brief

preamble, the minister alluded to the fact that the government was trying to get certain information, then there was the meeting and it seemed as though NAPE did not 2691

April 6, 1981 Tape 957 PK 2 MR. LUSH: have any new initiatives. Now, Mr. Speaker, my question is , I do not know what meeting the minister is referring to; the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) in an anawar to me on Friday indicated that he met with the officials of NAPE to point out their willingness to go back to the bargaining table. So what meeting was the minister specifically referring to when he said that that NAPE had no new initiatives and this sort of thing? Just what is the position on this getting back to the bargaining table?

Is there bargaining going on outside before we get back to the bargaining table? Or is there an opening to get back to the bargaining table? Just what is the situation with this particular problem right now with respect to getting back to the bargaining table? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Siinms) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the meeting I alluded to was a meeting between a negotiator from Treasury Board and a negotiator from the union and an officer from the Department of Labour and Manpower, in other words, • concilator.

We have had, hon. members will recall, • conciliation officer in place for some time who has acted as a liaison 2692

April 6, 1981, Tape 958, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: between the two disputing parties, and that officer was present at the meeting at which there was representation from Treasury Board, and representation from the union and that took place on Thursday. The hon. member asked are there preliminary moves? Well, I can assure the hon. member there always are preliminary moves, there are many moves in a labour dispute. Of course there are preliminary moves.

One wants to, in going into a meeting, to be as prepared as possible to make the meeting as contributory and as useful as possible so, of course, there is gathering of information, there is trying to assess what is the agenda, what are the matters likely to be discussed, and that did go on beforehand. As I pointed out, Treasury Board was not able to get any indication beforehand of what would be on the agenda, what was the matter to be discussed, and when we got in there, lo and behold there was nothing new to be discussed. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): A supplementary.

The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister is very quick to say that there were no new initiatives put forward on the part of NAPE, on the part of the union. "Y Can the minister indicate whether there were any new initiatives put forward on the a .asr Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, in response to that I can only restate the position of government which has, been consistent all along, which has been defencible all along, and which has been accepted by a very large number of people all along, and that is that 2693

April 6, 1981, Tape 958, Page 2 - apb DR. COLLINS: for certain numbers of types of work agreement has been reached,over and above the objections, I might add, Mr. Speaker, of the NAPE executive who were violently opposed to thi.s acceptance, but nevertheless, this acceptance was made by a very large number of workers in the public service. Now, a small number of workers in the public service,i.e.,approximateiy 2 per nt of those types of workers in the public service, have not accepted the position that has been accepted by 98 per cent of their fellow workers doing similar work..

And our initiative has been to offer to those 2 per cent exactly the same packet as was offered to the 98 per cent of similar workers who have accepted. Our other initiative has. been to say to those 2 per cent of workers,who have not accepted what 98 per cent have accepted is, 'If you are different, please show us how you are different.

Indicate to us how a truck driver or van drive, or a carpenter or a food worker or whatever in this union, which has accepted it, how that person is different from this person in this smaller union doing exactly the same kind of work and if you can show us a difference, we can offer a different packet. 269

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 959 DW - 1 MR. T. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I am understanding what the minister is saying but it looks like to me there is no point in getting back to the bargaining table. It looks like the government is inflexible in their position. So can the minister indicate whether or not the government is flexible within this particular issue because from what he - said it looks like the government is pretty inflexible.

Their stand is a permanent one and they are not willing to bend one way or the other. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is the hon. members word, not mineinflexible. My word isconsistent' and ecuit- able.' Possibly I might have a moment just to explain to the hon. member how the Public Service works. We have in Treasury Board a division called Classification and Pay and the objective of that division is to decide what is the nature of an employ- ees committment to government for which he gets paid. This is what it is all about.

We do not may people on an arbitrary basis, ad hoc,illogical basis. They are paid on precisely the basis of careful classification and that classification applies to anyone in any part of the service. So that if people are classified the same,00vernment pays them the same and it would be most disruptive, the Public Service could not work if we maid, say, a van driver doing a similiar type of work in one part of the Public Service differently from a van driver doing exactly the same type of work in another part of the service. That would be so disruptive that the Public Service could not work. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh 2695

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 959 DW - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: Now if there are differences in jobs: In other words, if a van driver in one part of the Public Service is not indeed doing the same work as a van driver in another part,the two van drivers will have a different classification and they will have different pay. And we have said to the unions that are in dispute, Look, if you have workers here that you think are performing different duties,please tell us. We have looked ourselves; we cannot find those differences.

If you can find your workers having different workplease tell us, we will re- classify them and then those workers will be eligible for a different scale of pay. MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Sceaker. WR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: Mv Question, Mr. Soeaker, was going to be the Premier. But unfortunately doctors have ordered him to rest for the past three or four days due to exhaustion. N Therefore, I will have to refer the cuestion to the Minister of Health (Mr. House).

With people on social assistance if they need, because of medical reasons, drugs or they have to go to the hospital or clinics then the government ends up looking after it. There are other people who are on unemploy- ment insurance and very low income, people coming back and forth to St.

Johns to go on the dialysis machine, parents who are keeping a child, say, eighteen years and younger in their homes instead of putting them in government institu- tions thereby saving the taxpayers of this Province thousands and thousands of dollars: Does the Minister of Health have any programme in the new Budget coming up where oeoole who are not on welfare but are making low incomes can get availability of a free drug card thereby helping them with their medica). oroblems? And also, can the minister inform this House do they have 2696

Aoril 6, 1981 Tap No. 960 EL - 1 MR. HTSC0CK any intentions of brining in a prograirimeparticularly with the year of the Disablad.,with regard to transportation because many of these oeole are findina a great financial hardship of having to come in from Gander or comino in from various other areas of our Province. Could the Minister of Health (N. House) inform us if he is noig tn bring in snch programme? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the question is what recommendations we are mking in the Budget.

I am not goino to address that question,but the point about in this Province where people cannot afford to come to a hospital or net 1-o a hositl, it is looked after. People are not keot away from hospital by virtue of the fact that they cannot affor it. And we have situations, we have the ambulance programme now which looks ftr pop1e in the case of emergencies. And, of course, even for oeoole who are not emergencies when it can be indicated that it is costly, too costly for them to handle, we have a situation where we will take stretcher cases at the ambulance rates of $50 dollars. Also Mr.

Speaker, there is a pro- vision made alsc when we get the information that persons do have very difficult circumstances we will refer it to the De- partment of Social Services and a social worker will make reccmnd- ations and we have had cases whereby oeople not on welfare have received assistance to get to hospital. MR. HISCOCK: A supolementarv, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supnlementarv, the hon. memher for Eagle River. MR. H]SCOCK: Mr. Speaker, by askino the question i-here are now, I would go as far as to say, hundreds of neonle who are affected,and thousands, in this Province that do not want 2697

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 960 EL - 2 MR. HSICOCK: to give UD their mentally retarded child, and are keeping the child in their home and have been for the past ten or twelve years, not receivinn any money what- soever. Then there are also rther people that because of their finances do not go to the government and end uo askinci that they apply. They have gone to the social workers. I have everal cases in my own district and now coing out around the Province I am getting other cases.

Is there such a programme or will the government think of such a programme, implement such a pro- gramme, where if you are on a rertain inrome yoiu will at least met one cuarter of your transoortation cost or one quarter of your drugs? Why is it that you have to co throngh the social worker And then find out,and be almost humiliated because of financial pressures, have to qo on welfare and then the social worker say, no, you cannot get it because you are not on welfare, Mr. Speaker.

Can we bring in a new programme, a new programme altogether that will look after the low income but not necess- arilv on it because most of the people are seeing great hard- ship,their little bit of savings is dwindling and. Mr. Speaker, it is a great mental stress on these marents as well as oati ents themselves? 2698

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 961 MM 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I can see now why the hon. member wanted to direct this question to the Premier because apparently he does not know which department to direct it to.

The Department of Health provide the services and do have some programmes, programmes with regard to drugs and so on for senior citizens and so on, but you are talking about respite care, care of the disabled with regard to mental retardation and so on, and that rightly falls within the ambit of the Department of Social Services, and there are programmes I am sure that the minister can respond to. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: With regard to addressing it to the Premier,I want to address it to the Premier because obviously some of the ministers in this government have not shown their competency. One would assume that the Minister of Health (Mr. House), and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) are in daily contact and bringing in new policies. So instead of turning around and saying which one I do not knou to refer to, I am asking this government, do you have any planj to bringing in a whole programme to deal with this severe problem that is facing our people in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman \ wants some information I will give him some on a programme which is not new but already in place. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Bank. 2699

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 961 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Premier I would like to ask the question to the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) . Over the • weekend Claud Moran, a minister in the Levesque Administration in Quebec, is quoted as saying that the other seven of the gang • of eight support the re-election of the Quebecois in Quebec. Now we know that this is a separatist administration led by a separatist leader.

Could the President of the Council con- firm that the Premier of this Province in this administration does in fact support the re-election of the Party Quebecois in Quebec? MR. SPEAKER (Sirrims) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I am glad the hon. gentleman asked the cuestion because I can refer to a remark made by the \\ / hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) a few moments ago to the effect of the alleged exhaustion of the hon. Premier. The hon. Premier today is out at a giant rally which is about to take place in Norman's Cove - MR. NEARY: Thousands and thousands SOME HON.

NBERS: Hear, hear MR. MARSHALL: - and he is dishing out, Mr. Speaker, he is dishing out a large dollop of exhaustion to the hon. members there opposite when they see the results on next Friday. But, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the hon. member's question, I did not hear Mr. Moran. I do not listen necessarily or hear Mr. Moran. I just say to the hon. gentleman that I do not believe that the hon. Premier or any member of this administration has any vote in the particular election so I do not think they would have any opinion really. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. 2700

April 6, 1981 Tape 962 EC - 1 I NJ ' N MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Harry) .

I might say very quickly that in talking to people around the Province I find total, complete and absolute support by the people who are looking to take advantage of the Super Chip programme-or take advantage of the Retro-Fit programme ---.- we are talking about, the conservation programme that the federal government is sponsoring, and I am surprised: I wonder if he would want -o comment on the fact that he seems to be opposed to the idea of twenty or thirty new federal jobs being created in Newfoundland and Mines and Eneray offices being opened up to give that department a presence and to employ twenty-five or thirty people to efficiently deliver a programme that most of the people in Newfoundland are looking forward to and most of the people want delivered by the federal aovernment? -------------- MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. HARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would agree and side with all those people in the Province who are in favour of having this Super Chip programme operational as quickly as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRY: And it was that very point that I was stressing when I pointed out that we could have had the programme in place - we had the supervisors in place - where the citizens of this Province could have been receiving their cheques for this programme three months ago The federal government still does not have a orograxmne in place because they do not have the personnel ready to administer it. And my objection, Mr.

Speaker, is and will continue to be wherever I see a duplication of personnel, wherever I see a waste of the taxpayers' dollar resulting from the way a rrogramme is administered, I will object to any such waste. 2701

April 6, 1981 Tape 962 EC - 2 MR.

BARRY: And here is a clear case where for nothing but gross partisan political reasons, because the federal government was afraid that it might have to share some of the so-called glory of this programme, this very good programme, with the provincial government, if our provincial employees were administering, were providing the funds and so forth, the federal government decided, 'No, we will create our own offices in the Province so that we can administer it ourselves, so that we cap "'ake some cheap political points, even though that is going to waste the taxpayers' dollar,and even though they will go so far as to try to hire away provincial employees, paying a higher salary when it could be done within the provincial government for less cost and more quickly.

MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 4. 2702

April 6,1981 Tape No. 963 AM-i MR.SPEAKER (Sioms) : A supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.FLIGHT: This sounds like a pure case of the fox and grapes, Mr.Speaker. If you cannot get the grapes you are sour. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister, he referred to some of his statements a duplication of services. Could the minister point out to me one programme administered by the provincial government that has the effect of conserving energy to the consumers - I am not talking about the industrialists- but to the consumers?

Can he point out one programme to me that is administered by his department whereby the orogranune - is made available to the consumers under insulation programmes such as CHIFS for instance which the federal government has administered very, very efficiently for the people? So when we talk about duplication of service, identify one that up to this point in time he has been responsible for or his people have been. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, one of the three which is now being brought in which the federal government has agreed will be administered by the Province, one of the three will be administered by the Province and the other two will be administered by the federal government. MR.FLIGHT: A supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the minister talks about the federal government wanting to hire away his people. Would the minister stand up and indicate to the House whether or not the very people he is talking about have approached the federal government for a job in these new offices being opened up?

It is not that the federal government have approached them. It is his own ernployees,recognizing a better job opportunity with better p'ay,have approached the federal department looking 2703

April 6,1981 Tape No. 963 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: for jths and looking to get out of this present departnnt. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKEP.(Simms) : The hon. member of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I will submit to members of this House and members opposite that the taxpayers of this Province ,looking at a situation where they can have a programme delivered by employees paid at a certain level..and looking at a federal programme which will have the same employees delivering a programme for a higher wage level,they will consider that a waste of public funds. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary.

SOME I-ION.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, would the minister confirm also - hp referred to negotiations going on between the federal government and his department back in Nbvernber which was almost six months ago, back in November, to delivere this programme on joint, basis - MR.MOORES: Slave labour. MR.

FLIGHT: Is he prepared to confirm that it was because of his departments inability to come to some agreement with the federal government on this programme that finally the federal governrnent,out of frustration and out of a desire to deliver the programme to the people of Newfoundland, pulled out and said,We will go it alone? MR. !OORES: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. BARRY: I say without equivocation that the hon. member cannot substantiate one jot, one tittle, one iota of that last asinine remark. He cannot substantiate any portion af it, Mr Chairman.

As a matter of fact,we can 2704

April 6,1981 Tape No. 963 AH-3 MR. BARRY document, we can document, Mr. Chairman, and I can personally testify to the fact that the federal officials were proceeding along merrily concluding an agreement and it was ready virtually for the signatures of the federal minister and my own when all of a sudden the rug was pulled out from underneath the feet of the federal officials and they were informed that the - 4 2705

April 6, 1981, Tape 964, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: did not want,the federal politicians did not want the federal government to 1ose the credit that they might have to share with the Province for delivering such a programme. And, Mr. Speaker, I had, by coincidence, the opportunity of speaking with the federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr.

Lalonde) literally minutes before he went into the political caucus which decided that they would change direction, pull the rug out from underneath their federal employees who were negotiating, and had virtually completed negotiation of agreement and were satisfied that the programme could be delivered quite adequately by provincial officials. MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. We have time for one more question. MR. HANCOCK: It is about time Ottawa smartened up, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health., Mr. Speaker.

I would like the minister to confirm whether or not this Province is faced with a shortage of nurses. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I have no statistics to show that we have a shortage of nurses at this particular time. That is not to say, of course, \ that possibly some hospitals would not like to have more nurses now, but as far as I can gather, and I do not have any information in from any of the hospitals, there is no shortage that is taking into consideration the number of units that they are entitled to and the number of people they have.

There may be certain advertisments for 2706

April 6, 1981, Tape 964, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOUSE: certain specialties, or, I believe, there may be O.R. nurses, or intensive care nurses where there may be a shortage, and in a • lot of these cases we have people now in training on bursaries for these programmes. I saw a few days ago that in the Atlantic region, that includes, of course, the Maritimes and Newfoundland, there in a shortage, I believe, of 400 nurses. Now, I do not know what particular portion of these are in Newfoundland, but at this point in time, from a general statement, there is no, Siree, a shortage. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms) : The time for Oral Questions has expired. It is a particular pleasure today, and I do so on behalf of all hon. members in the House, to welcome to the galleries twenty-five students from Alexander Galt Regional Hi ol in Lennoxville, Quebec, and twenty-five students from Mount Pearl Central -----------, High School from the district of Mount Pearl,accompanied by teachers Mrs. Janet Angraves, Mr. Cameron Roger, and Mr. Harvey Hodder. We hope you enjoy your visit. Bien- venue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heart ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE BAS BEEN GIVEN 4 MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we give so many answers here the members cannot keep up with. all the information they are getting. I would like to supply some information in response to a question from the member for 2707

April 6, 1981,Tape 964, Page 3 -- apb MR. BARRY: LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in which he asked fora prQgresgrt on exploration and drilling done by RioCanex near Burnt Island Pond for gold and other minerals; and 27O

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 965 RA - 1 MR. L. BARRY: the second part of the question is when will a decision be made on the feasibility of opening a mine in the Burnt Islands Pond area? Now, Mr. Speaker, we have been waiting the results of the company's last season's exploration programme and we have now received that information and I can deliver it to this House. RioCanex,which is the exploration arm of Rio Algom carried out a full Summer programme of explor- ation in 1980 at its Cape Ray gold project as it has done every year since the first programme started in 1977.

Exploration work on this property up to the edd of 1980 has revealed a one mile long mineralized area which has three potential ore sones totalling approximat- ely one million tons of material grading at less than 0.3 ounces of gold per ton. Trenching and diamond drill- ing indicate that ground conditions will be extremely poor in an underground mining situation and therefore RioCanex has decided to suspend exploration work until the feasibility of mining this area is determined by the mine engineering division of the company.

So we cannot expect to see a major exploration programme under- taken in this area in 1981. Environmental impact and feasibility studies have to be conducted before a dec- ision is made to open a mine. And in this case, because ground conditions are so bad it will be necessary to predetermine the feasibility of physically mining the 4. ore reserves before any such decisions are made.

The whole matter is currently under consideration by the engineering division of the company, and official company sources indicate that it is unlikely a decision will be there to go ahead with exploratory mining development until later and that there will not be time in 1981. 2 70 9

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 965 RA - 2 MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I realize that the opposition critic for mines has no interest - MR. SPEAKERSimms) : Order, please: MR. L. BARRY: - in mining operations or - MR. FLIGHT: - (Inaudible) MR.SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. L. BARRY: potential mining operations - MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please Answers to Questions. MR. L. BARRY: - but the member for LaPoile has asked a question and I know is deeply interested as are the people on the West Coast of this Province,and in fact all over the Province.

So, the mines critic,if he will just keep quiet I will give him all this lovely information. Well, I am just about finished Mr. Speaker. So, the whole matter is currently under consideration by the engineering division of the company. And company officials indicate that they will have to have this engineering work completed before they will be continuing on with the exploratory work. But it looks,Mr.

Speaker, with one million tons of 0.3 onces of gold per ton that there will be sufficient interest there to put considerable work in on the engineering details and we are still hopeful that we will see some positive results on the West Coast. And there are copies that will be available for the hon. member, yes. 4 2710

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 966 EL - 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon. the Minister of I Finance to introduce a bill,

An Act To Provide For The Funding Of Certain Pension Plans And Retirement Benefits Sponsored By The Province And Consequential Amendments Of Certain Pension Acts Related Thereto.' (No. 58) On motion, Bill No. 58 read a first, time ordered read, a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supoly, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt) Order, please The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the hon. member starts, I would just like to point out that we have used uc eioht hours and eighteen minutes.

The time remainino is sixty-six hours, forty-two minutes. The hon. member for Grand Bark. MR. THOMS: We still have sixty-six hours left, have we, Mr. Chairman? Thank you. /\ Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the students in the House this afternonn, what we are debating at the present time is a resolution askinq that this House- MP wTNnnR Do not be (inaudible) MR. THOMS: The Minister of Development will get an opportunity tn speak as soon as I sit down if he wants to ex- olain why Arnold's Cove was brought into the House today. We would all love to hear that. It may have nothino to rio, Mr.

Chairman, with the by-election in Bellevue. I am waiting for the minister to tell us why it was brought in today. Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, we are debating a resolution asking this House 27 11

April 6, 1981 Pape No. 966 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: to aoprove the spending for the next three months of some $500 million, a half billion dollars. And of course, the Budget, I understand is to be brouqht in later,on on March 14th, and we 'will cet a detailed breakdown - April 14th, I am sorry- a detailed breakdown on what is being scent decart- ment by department.

At the present time, all we have is one sheet of caper asking for a half billion dollars, close to $500 million and we have very little information provided for us by the administration, by the Tory administration of this Province as to where it is goinq to be scent. We have been asking some questions, a oarticulax question asked by my friend for LaPoile (Mr. Neary for some information on :he use of the government aircraft by the Premier's Office. Now, Mr.

Chairman, a short while ago there was introduced into this House a Freedom of In- formation Act, a Freedom of Information Act which I cot on my feet and I supoored. It can do with some amendments and maybe we will see some durina the committee stage. But if this is this ad- ministration's attitude towards the Freedom of Information Act, then I fear for that Freedom of Information Act. I said at that time unless this government, unless the politicians, u"less the public service wants the Freedom of Information to be effect- ive,them there i5 nn wa" that it can be effective. S 2712

April 6, 1981 Tape 967 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: We asked for information concerning the use of the government aircraft for a certain period of time by the Premier's office and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has flatly refused to give us that information. And I am concerned, because I do not think we will get that information with a Freedom of Information Act unless the attitude of this administration changes. That is all we are asking for; simply asking, give us the information, Where did it Ly from? Who did it carry? What were the purposes of the trips?

Certainly goodness, the Opposition has a right to know that. The people of this Province who are footing the bill have a right to know that. So these are some of the things concerning us. If I had my way, Mr.Chairman, this government would be forced to use closure to get the Interini Supply bill through. AN HON. MEMBER: Only the Liberals would do that. MR. TROMS: Oh, you would see how fast the Tories would do it too. You would see how fast you would do it if we decided to carry on this debate. MR. HISCOCK: And we may. MR. THOMS: Do not tempt us. We just might do that.

So, Mr.Chairman, we would like to get out a message to the public of this Province that things are not always as they seem to be, that the Premier of this Province is not the lily-white angel that the press has made him out to be. There are chinks in his armour. There is something rotten in the State of Denmark. Mr. Chairman, I was amazed and I was concerned when over the weekend I heard the Minister of Finance for Quebec say that this administration supported the re-election of a separatist party led by a separatist 27 13

April 6, 1981 Tape 967 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: premier in (uebec. MR. HOUSE: Anybody up there campaigning for them? MR. T}LONS: Of course you were not up there campaigning. Nobody suggested that. But I will tell you this, Mr. Minister of Health, when the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) answered my questions this afternoon, he did not say he did not support the re-election of a separatist government in Quebec. And I am not convinced that this administration would not like to see this Province being led down the paths of separatism.

But I can tell the President of the Council right now that it will be done over my dead body. I will go to the battlefield to keep this Province in Confederation. And I would like for the students from Ontario to take this back. MR. HISCOCK: ')uebec. MR. THOMS: I understand they are from Gault, Ontario. MR. HISCOCK: Lennoxville, is it not? - Lennoxville, Quebec. MR. THOMS: Wherever they are from. Whatever part of Canada you are from, you have a Canadian here. You have a Canadian speaking in this House this afternoon, Mr. Chairman. You also have a Newfoundlander, there is no question about that.

You also have a Newfoundlander, but you have a Canadian. I do not put them one/two or two/one. But when I hear politicians in other parts of the country saying that the Premier of this Province supports a separatist government and supports a separatist premier, a man who would tear this country apart, then that concerns me. MR. CARTER: Do not go twisting it. MR. THOMS: I am not twisting anything. The only thing wisted is the hon. members mind, the only thing in this House that is twisted. 271 4

April 6, 1981 Tape 967 EC - 3 MR. CARTER: You are twisting the facts. MR. THONS: Those are the facts that were stated and it concerns Tue. 2715

April 1, 1981, Tape 968, Page 1 -- apb MR. THOMS: As I said, we are being asked to approve $.5 billion and I think a note of caution has got to go out, not only in Newfoundland but across this nation, across North Mlerica, across the world;there is going to come a time, Mr. Chairman, when the people are going to finally stop and say, We have had enough. We saw a certain bit of that with Proposition 13 in California. As I stated here on Friday, Mr. Chairman, wives work today.

They do not work because they want to work, they do not work because they enjoy having babysitters in to look after their children, they do not enjoy sending their kinds out to day care centres, they are not working to buy yachts and Summer homes and gorgeous dresses and so on, they are working to buy groceries to put on the table. And what do governments do but squander? There is enough money squandered in the civil service and in government departments in this Province, and I would suspect in all Provinces. This is why we want to know what the government aircraft is doing.

We want to know if the taxpayers' dollars of this Province are being wasted. Everything might be aboveboard, straightforward, but after the debacle we saw in this House in the past week where the Premier of this Province caine in an assured us that everything was straightforward and honest in connection with the hiring of a lowbed, then, Mr. Chairman, we are going to doubt. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Speaking of lowbeds, Mr. Chairman, look, I just want to make a few comments with respect to this bill. This is a bill for interim supply.

The Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) has indicated that the budget will be brought down next Tuesday, within a 2716

April 6, 1981, Tape 968, Page 2 -- aph MR. MARSHALL: week's time. As is customary,a bill for interim supply to give enough spending money in the duration, there is nothing unusual about it, has been introduced into this House. Last year the time consumed on interim supply was two hours and fifty minutes. The year before that, under the same rules, it was within that vicinity. Right now, I believe, we are nearing the ninth hour. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not draw issue with the Opposition's right, of course, to debate supply, but I have to tell the House that the government needs this supply in order to operate effectively. MR. NEARY: Answer the questions, then. 2717

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 969 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: I will get to the question in a moment, Mr. Speaker, if I may. The situation is, Mr. Speaker, that there are millions of dollars a day that are expended by this government with this particular budget and there are al- ready bills that should have been paid and would have been paid since April 1st. had interim supply gone through in the normal course of events within the time period that elapsed last year for the debate. I can also say, Mr.

Chairman, and I have to draw this to the attention of the Committee, that if supply does not go through today, if it is impossible to put supply through today, there will be salaries of public servants that will be delayed. Before payday,it is normal with people in the far Northern parts of our Province to mail them some days before payday and we have to get these cheques in the mail today or at the very latest early tomorrow morning, in order to do that you have to have interim supply. So I draw that to the attention of the Committee. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the questions that have been asked in this nine hours and the things that have been asked of government, I wonder myself as to why the Opposition is digging its heels into and concentrates on things like aeroplanes, talking about separatism - AN HON. ?MBER: And corruption. MR. MARSHALL: - talking about how the Premier sits when there are other people getting pictures taken with the Premier, talking about mumblings and grumblings of ministers in elevators. It seems to me a sad indictment that that would be the subject of conversation or debate, Mr. Speaker, when we are considering some $500 million.

The whole truth of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that questions such as unemployment should be brought up and should be the topic in a general debate of this nature. But the gentlemen there opposite do not wish to talk about Un- 2718

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 969 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: employment, Mr. Chairman, because it is a fact that despite the obvious reality that unemployment is still a very, very pressing problem to this Province it has decreased by four cent since this government has taken office. That is why they do not want us to talk about that, Mr. Speaker. Neither do they want to talk about items like the life blood of this Province with respect to the fishery, and there has been no mention of that. They do not want to talk, Mr.

Chairman, about matters of how the revenues of this Province can be im- measurably increase by us obtaining our rightful rights to the offshore in this Province, and they do not want to talk about that because of the fact that they are not at one with the government and I would suggest with the people of Newfoundland on that very topic and perhaps they find it embarrassing. The hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) asked me today about Mr. Moran, and then he asked about the government's position, he made certain reference to it when he spoke.

I can only say that these questions are merely academic for this government because as I say we have no say in the outcome of it. But I could point out that on the basic issues in Quebec there does not seem to be a great deal of difference in certain areas which affect vitally the rights of the people of Quebec itself, whether it is the Liberal Party or the Union Nationale Party, or whether it is the Party Quebecois, on the basic rights for the people of Quebec they are one and the same. Indeed, Mr.

Chairman, the Liberal Party in Quebec, the Liberal Party in Quebec takes a different stand on these issues than the federal party, which is a lesson1 I would suggest, to the Liberal Party of Newfoundland. So, Mr. Chairman, the only - MR. NEARY: Your audience has gone. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please 2719

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 969 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Unlike the hon. gentleman,I am not speaking for the purpose of speaking to an audience or speaking from a grandstand. I am just trying to speak, Mr. Chairman, as to the effects of this interim supply and the necessity of having interim supply passed today if at all possible so that the government- so that Northern salaries of civil servants, can be paid. As for the matter, Mr. Chairman, of the government plane, the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) has indicated, and already indicated on Friday, that the situation is that the government plane has been used on business, on government business. Now why do the hon. gentlemen want to get into various other areas? AN HON. ?NBER: No, it is not. MR. MARSHALL: If the hon. gentlemen wish to get into certain other specific areas,I would say that the most appropriate place to bring it up are in the committees that this House has constituted with a detailed 2720

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 970 DW - 1 MR. N. MARSHALL: examination of Estimates where finer details like this could he questioned and asked for. But the only reason, Mr. Speaker, - so the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) gets up and says the plane has been used for government business. Now what is the purpose of the auestion? The purpose of te question is that the Opposition is attempting to hurl spears, as it were, at the government and to look for things that are not there because they think that and they perceive that this is the only way that they can get at the government.

They cannot talk about the basic issues that really matter in this Province such as unemployment, the necessity of a gigantic or immeasurable increase in our income and other matters, the fisheries, the offshore and transmission rights. All they want to do is to do this type of thing and to hurl, as it were, you know, to cast innuendoes and by this and aspersions attempt to sow the seeds of doubt and what have you, Because when they ask a question like that and they do not get an answer - 11, they got an answer but the trouble with it is they want to be able, Mr.

Speaker, to give the answer as well as the auestion. And they do it in their questions by innuendo. That is the way the hon. gentleman carried on opposition, Mr. Speaker, in times past and it still has gotten him in the same olace,into opsit.ion. Now, Mr. Sceaker, there is a lot of business to be transacted by the House, there is interim supply,which is necessary, as I say, to pay the bills, partic- ularly the salary bills of this Province.

There is a Budget coming in next week, on next Tuesday, there is going to be a full scale Budge debate, there is going to be detailed examinations of the Estimates in the Committees to the same degree as ithas been in the past two years where ministers 2721

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 970 OW - 2 MR. W.MARSHALL: actually come in before committees of this House and are drilled and are asked to justify various details of exoenditure. So there is going to be this adeguate oovortunitv and, Mr. Chairman, it is coming up in just one week. Now in the meantime and in addition, Mr. Chairman, we have also on the Order Paper in this House a large amount of business, of public business that has to be transacted.

The government would like to be able to see this business, these bills being debated in an orderly and in a proper course so that at the end of the day, at the end of the session we do not wind up,as we wind up every year,with nuxner- Qua bills going through the House at the very end of the session with little if any debate and their qoing through in a meaningless manner. Because it makes the House or the Committee of the House very ineffective. So I just draw this to the attention of the Committee, Mr. Chairman. We have given the answer that have been reguested.

They may not be the answers that the hon. gentlemen there opposite would like to hear,because they frame the answers by their questions. If they want to,I would suggest that all they are doings just trying to cast their usual innuendoes. And the people of the Province 1 say have dealt with them by keeping them in Opposition to a large de- gree because of this. We require this interim supply, we require it today if we possibly can get it through today and I would like to get on, as I say, with the business of the Committee and the House and hope that this can be done. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt) The hon. memher for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the sum and substance of what the hon. gentleman just said is this, that the govern- ment is going to refuse to give the House, to give the tax- payers of this Province any information in connection with the use of the government aircraft. 2722

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 970 PM - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Nobody has said,either through innuendo - and I could have stood in my place on a point of order when the hon. aentleinan attributed motives to the Opposition asking simple questions and the govern- ment refusing to give answers, attributing motives to our asking these questions. But I did not do it, Mr. Chairman, because if we did that with the hon. gentle- man we would have to do it every five minutes. So 2723

April 6, 1981 Tape 971 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: then we have no intention of taking the bait that the hon. gentleman threw out. Mr. Chairman, the House knows that the members on this side of the House through Private Menthers' Resolutions, through remarks made in their discussions in the debate on the Speech from the Throne, have raised the matter of unemployment. My colleague from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is at it every day. And the only answer that we get from across the House is that the figures do not lie but liars do figure. So, Mr. Chairman, what else is new?

We brought in a Resolution to debate the cost of living in this Province. The government voted against it. They used their majority to vote it down. We have been trying to get explanations and trying to get the government to change their minds on increasing the cost of electricity to consumers in this Province. Now, why are we doing that, Mr. Chairman? Well, we are doing it first of all because we do not think that the consumers will get a fair shake from the Public Utilities Board. The Public Utilities Board first of all is a creature of the government. It is made up of political appointees.

Newfoundland Hydro is a creature of the government made up of political appointees. And the government itself has approved the application for an increase. So when you combine all these forces, Mr. Chairman, how can you expect the consumer to get a fair shake? It is just not possible. So we brought that up. We brought up the matter of strikes in the public service, the government's disaster course that it is on with regard to negotiations with the civil servants. We have brought up all kinds of matters raised in the Auditor General's report. And in addition to all of this, Mr.

Chairman, I have forty-seven questions, written questions on the Order Paper, that have written out. Counting today's Order Paper, 272

April 6, 1981 Tape 971 EC - 2 N:R. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I have fifty questions on the Order Paper, and out of the fifty so far I have got two answers. Now, how is that for perform- ance from a government that said that they were going to - AN HON. MEMBER: Fifty? . NEARY: Fifty, number 50 - a government that was going to be open and free and honest with the people. Out of fifty questions I have gotten two awers, and one of these answers I got today. Now, Mr. Chairman, as a test of the government's sincerity in giving the people of this Province information, we put a simple question to the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) in connection with the government aircraft, and before Interim Supply is passed - and I can guarantee the hon. gentleman who just spoke and the Minister of Finance that there is no way they are going to get Interim Supply today, or tomorrow for that matter, until they give us the information that we want. And what is the question? Now, the Govexnment House Leader (Mr. Marshall) parroted what the Minister of Finance said the other day. He said the aircraft was used on government business.

Nell, we heard the Minister of Transortation tell us there two weeks ago that he paid the bill for the lowbed and we discovered that that turned out to be a lie. The House was deceived, the Premier was deceived and misled. And we have all kinds of other examples, Mr. Chairman - . MOORES: Take their word MR. NEARY: - of where the ministers attempted to dupe the Opposition and dupe the people of this Province Take their word for it, that is what they are asking us to do. Well, Mr. Chairman, maybe I am like Saint Thomas, I have to stick my hand into the wound. 2725

Arpil 6, 1981 Tape No. 972 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: I am like St. Thomas as far as this crowd are concerned. They have to show me, they have to prove it to rne There are no innuendoes, t12re are no charges, no accusations, it is just a simple request for information. And what is the information? Many is the time the member for S St. John's East Extern (T.Hickev) asked the government, when he was in Ooposition,for information. I do not know if the information was always supplied to his satisfaction but cer- tainly he asked and he tried to set information. And the hon. gentleman was to be commended for that.

That was his job and his duty. The hon. gentleman gaza lot of information and now what we are askino for, Mr. Chairman, we Are asking the novern- ment to tell us the number of times that the Premier's Office requested the government aircraft, the number of times if went aloft, the names of the oassenqers that travelled in the eir'raft and the purpose of the trip. Is that unreasonable, Mr. Chairman? Is that an unreasonable request?

So, if anybody is holding uo the interim supply bill, it is the minister and the government. '. r'-airman, I may saint out in connection with the red herring that the President of the Coun- cil (W.Marshall) just dragoed in, it is the government's respon- sibilitv to sovern this Province. It is the government's res- sonsibility to get interim supply in this House. It is not our ressonsibility. Our resoonsibility is to see that certain in- formation is obtained from the qovernment and passed on to the people of this Province.

If this government wanted interim suoplv they could have had it the very day they brought the bill into the House-which was late coming in, I might add. The bill was late coming in, the government have stonewalled, are refusing to give us information and there is no way, Mr. Chairma", I Am sure the neoole of. this Province will understand, there is no way 2726

Aoril 6, 1981 Tape No. 972 EL - 2 MR. WEARY: that we would - as a matter of fact, the Opnosition would be shirking its responsibility, would not be doing the people of the Province their justice. We would be doing them an injustice if we did not hold out for the in- formation to the question that we have asked Wow, the hon. gentleman says this t is purely administrative, purely administrative- We sked the question on Thursday. WR asked it again on Friday and we are asking it again todav,and it would only take five minutes to get the information, Mr. Chairman.

Why are the government re- fusing to give the House this information? The only conclusion that we can come to on this side of the House is that they have somethinc to hide. They have somethin' to cover up. It is a coverup and they have somethino to hide and that is why, Mr. Chairman, the minister and the government are refusing to give us the information. And I can tell the minister now, and he President of the Council (W. Marshall) who just took his seat, that they have high hopes if they think they are going to get this interim supply bill today.

They have high horesAfld they can play on sympathy all they want They are governing the Prov- ince, not us. We are only looking for information and if they wanted an interim supply bill they know what they can do. And if they do not do it, they are the ones who are shirking their responsibility. And I am satisfied to stay here night and day until the seventy-five hours Are used up to gt the answer. There is a great principle involved here, Mr.

Chairman, a great principle involved, the nrinciple of the government -of the Ooposition asking questions and the government G refusing to sunplv the taxpayers with the information. And if they continue to stonewall, Mr. Chairman, then it is the govern- ment who is to blam. 2727

Arri1 6, 1981 Tane No. 972 EL - 3 MR. WEARY: If the cheques for Social Assistance recipients do not go out on time, if the employees in the North do not ret their cheques on time, if the civil service are not 3 nairi on 1-ime it is the fault of i -his golrernment and not the fault of the Opposition. We are not governing the Province. 4 MR. HISCOCK: We are doing our jobs. MR. WEARY: We are only doing our duty as Ooposition members,anr9 we are asking for a l7erv simple piece of information.

And if I were the oeoole of this Province, especially the ones who do not ret oaid on Wednesday, I would be up in front of Confederation Building demanding that the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) supply the House, supply the people of this Province with the answer to a very simple ques- tion. And that is, and I will reneat. it again, how many tines di,9 the Premier's Office recruisition the aircraft since January 1st, 1980, the names of the people who flew in the aircraft, and the purpose of the trios? MR. THOMS: If there is nothino to hide, there is no reason why you should not give it. 2728

April 6,1981 Tape No. 973 AH-1 MR.NEARY: If we do not get that information then we can only assume, Mr. Chairman, that the government has something to hide. MR.CHAIRMAN (Butt) The hon. member for St. John's North. MR.CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I was particularly interested in the member for Grand Bank's(Mr. Thoms) comments. MR. THOMS: I do not believe there is a quorum in the House. MR.CARTER: We have a quorum. LookThey are all about, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A quorum call. Ring the bells. Count the members. There is a quorum present. The hon. member for St. John's North, MR. CARTER: Mr.

Chairman, when I got up to make a few remarks,I was beginning to say that I agreed with some of the points or one of the points that the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) made. I thought his few remarks were very good particularly when he discussed waste and extravagance because I do know of one instance of government waste and extravagance that I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) to address himself to. This amounts to a considerable amount of money and I do think as a responsible government we should try to curb this needless expense.

And that is - and the press should take notice here -the luxurious quarters afforded the Opposition office. They are down there , Mr. Chairman, in a very large1extensive quarters, thick carpets on the floor, all kinds of sophisticated office equipment. I I well remember the kind of quarters that we had when we were in Opposition. It amounted to, I think, it was two offices on the other side there and possibly one typewriter and one telephone. Now the government very generously and very naturally increased the Opposition vote.But now not only are there luurious offices afforded to the Opposition, not 272

April 6,1981 Tape No. 973 AH-2 MR.CARTER: only are there generous travel benefits for all members,of course1 to get back and forth to their districts but there is almost unlimited use - in fact there is virtual unlimited use of long distance telephone without any charge whatsoever. Opposition members may telephone every single member of their district every day,if there were enough hours in the day,on government expense. MR. HISCOCK: And the government also. MR. CARTER: The government rnembers,at least they show some discretion 1 am sureand will not overdo it.

But the Opposition have an open-ended agreement and I think that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) should address himself to this scandalous abuse of public funds because I well remember what they provided for us when they were in power. MR. FLIGHT: You were over paid then. MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I would like the press to do a little survey and just go down there with their cameras and go around the Opposition office. I am sure the members would permit it, would they not? MR. NEARY: They can come in with a heart and a half. They are in there every day anyway. MR.

CARTER: Now if the press find that there is a lot of dust in the airthat will be because of the hasty removal of some of the more opulent furnishings. SOME HON.MENBERS: Hear, hear! I MR. CARTER: But I would suggest that the press - MR. NEARY: They can come in any time they want to and see my files on scandals. I have my office filled up with scandal files. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! 2730

April 6,1981 Tape No. 973 AH-3 MR. CARTER: I would suggest that the press hurry because the Opposition will be very quick to put up a poor mouth. But it amounts to this , Mr. Chairman, many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent on furnishing luxuries for the Opposition and in my view are misspent,so I would like to hear the minister address those complaints. MR. THOMS: I get a two by four office, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) and myself. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. member for Eagle River. /\ MR.HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter)1 when we talk about the waste, when we talk about those pictures that are put up in public buildings done by Rostotsky, 2731

April 6, 1981 Tape 974 PK - 1 MR. HISCOCK: I thought we were belong to the Commonwealth, I did not think we were a republic. The Prime Minister for Canada does not even have his picture up in the public building, and here we have the Premier having his picture in public buildings. MR. THOMS: President Peckford. MR. HISCOCK: So I would like to know - AN HON. MEMBER: President Peckford, that is it. MR. HISCOCK: Or emperor. So I would like to know there how much that is, and these scrolls, and now the medals. And as I said, he must be reading piatds Republic. But, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to just say with regard to the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) with regard to the Opposition space we as a Province are looking after a billion, or a billion and a half dollars a year. Only for the interim supply we are asking for a half a billion. And here is the government in its arrogance - I believe that every member of this House of Assembly should have their own secretary, research assistant, two combination, the same person would do both things, everybody should have their office. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HISCOCK: If you are going to run a business and it is over $1.5 billion, if you cannot turn around and have that, Mr. Chairman, then we are not in a very good way of managing the affairs of our Province. • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: I do not have Manpower offices and various other government offices. I had to do a thing in my district when I went down,I had to bring back a watch to get a battery, I had to turn around and send it back to the person because they would not get them down there in Williams Harbour and other areas. 2732

April 6, 1981 Tape 974 P1K - 2 MR. 1-IISCOCK: But, Mr. Chairman, rural areas in particularthe members are called upon to do a lot more than the member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) or St. John's North (Mr. Carter) who may get three or - MR. THOMS: St. John's North (Mr. Carter) does not get any. MR. HISCOCK: - four phone calls a year. So when it comes to waste,I would even go so far as to say as an investment. But, Mr. Chairma" this is not the question why we are hanging this down.

We are asking a simple question, the truth, the honesty, and the justice, and a new image, the new step forward into the 1980s, the new Freedom Of Information Bill, the conflict of interest for ministers and public servants: surely. Mr. Chairman, if we had this, surely it is not going to be shallow, the freedom of information,like Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia got their freedom of information and they do not even use it. You ask the press over in Nova Scotia when they go and want to get information from the government, can they get it? It is a wash job. It is a great publicity tactic, Mr. Chairman. That is what it is.

And the press and everybody are lapping it up and saying, boy, we are finally getting freedom of information. The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) got fifty questions, fifty questions, he cannot even get any answers to them now. Do you mean to tell me that as soon as that legislation comes in the member can expect the next day to get the answers? They will be on this Order Paper and the next Order Paper and the next Order Paper until we form this government and then find out for ourselves, Mr. Chairman. 2733

April 6, 1981 Tape 974 PE - 3 MR. HISCOCK: But what I am rather surprised at is the chain of events in the past week where I have been in the district of Bellevue - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: - with regard to the resignation of a minister, and we were asked there by the hon. the Premier to accept his words. Now we are being asked by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to accept all the aircraft by the Premier were used for only professional business jobs.

If that is the case table it, if the administration intends table it and we will slip it right through now and - MR. NEARY: If you have nothing to hide, tell us. MR. HISCOCE: - go on and get it. But no, Mr. Chairman, we are told that, the Liberals, you know, their innuendoes, and they are going on with the questions, and the reason why we are in Opposition. Our job is to ask questions and the government's job,particularly with the freedom of information is to answer. And, Mr. Chairman, I say this is a snow job, again another image, another tactic to put this former Cabinet that belong to Mr.

Moores, the former Premier, one of the most corrupt governments, one of the most corrupt Cabinets - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: - that we ever had in the history of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. HISCOCK: And now the majority of them V are still in this administration. And the Premier is trying to give the impression,because he is the new man, he is the new Premier, even though he was in the Cabinet, he is trying to give the impression that he is lily white 2734

April 6, 1981, Tape 975, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: and thatWhat ended up happening in the past week? The man almost had a nervous breakdown. Ordered by his doctor to turn around and have four days of rest, and never even attended the meeting out in Grand Falls,which is the equivalent to the meeting of all the Conservative people and delegates etc. And I would say, Mr. Chairman, when you have the Premier,who will not even go on television with regard to the flatbed incident, and now is suffering from exhaustion, here we have the former Premier MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR.

HISCOCK: I would say both. - here we have the former Premier, Mr. Smallwood, over eigltty years old still working sixteen hours a day. So what we are seeing from our Premier is that he wants everything and whatever, but his energy is going, he is cracking, actually cracking. AN HQN.MEMBER: (Inaudible) sit down MR. HISCOCK: Rhetoric. And, Mr. Chairman, when we ask something, what do we get? Arrogance. We are told it is innuendo, when we actually ask a question with regard to the Premier's Office. So we find out now that after two years, and with one week of pressure put on him, he cannot take the pressure.

If he cannot take the pressure he should get out of the kitchen. MR. NEARY: Right on MR. HISCOCK: And, as I said, our former Premier, eighty years old and still working sixteen hours a day. AN HON. MEMBER: Eighteen. MR. HISCOCK: Eighteen or sixteens It is absolutely ridiculous. So, Mr. Chairman, with regard to one question, I think that is only one question 2735

April 6, 1981, Tape 975, Page 2 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: we want on interim supply. We have said time and time again we will give interim supply for the wages. You asked for the wage package, $50 million or whatever, we will give you that, pass it on through now. We said it the week before last when I was here. We will give you that, but surely, as an S Opposition, Her Royal Majesty's Opposition, we have a right to expect an answer for one simple question. But no. Take my word'. The President of the Privy Council says take his word. We took the Premier's word for the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Brett) and what was it worth? Our job is not to take words, our job is to turn around and answer it. So, Mr. Chairman, if this government and this administration, even though they were still part of the old administration and would like to put as much distance in it as possible - you cannot change the captain and have the same old crew and expect everything to go on the same old way. Yet, for whatever reason, our people in the Province are beginning to think, 'No, Mr. Peckford is different, that all the Cabinet, they are all new people, that they were not in withMr. Moores, Mr.

Moores was the only who was guilty, Mr. Moores was the only one who did it'. And I must say, one of the things, when Mr. Moores went before the Public Accounts Committee, I admired very much about him, and it showed 0 that he was a former Premier, he said members of his Cabinet had selective amnesia, selective amnesia. I V would go as far as to say now that the Premier has selective amnesia, and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) 2736

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 976 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: has selected amnesia. So, Mr. Chairman, this House is going to pass an Interim Supply Bill of $.5 billion, and we want one question, one question and we will give the Province .5 h.11ion, and what are we getting? It is too tedious, it is too administrative, you know, ask in that area and whatever and that. If that is the case, Mr. Chairman, it is just as well for this Opposition to give up and walk out of the House and leave it. Because as far as I am concerned we have a government that rules by tyranny and arrogance. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I congratulate my hon. colleague for the excellent points that he just made in his few remarks. Now the government, especially the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) now all of a sudden they become mute. They are like dummies now. They will not even defend themselves. They are just laying back now and taking it hoping that the Opposition will run out of steam, run out of speakers, that we will get tired and give up. Well, Mr.

Chairman, look at my hon. colleague here, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) ; does he look like a man and act and behave like a man who gives up very easily? My hon. friend from Carbonear (Mr. Moores) , does he look like a quitter? My hon. friend from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) , with the eloquent remarks that he just made, lively, exciting, dramatic, now hon. members over there think that we are going to give up? Well if they do, Mr. Chairman, if they do they had better think again. And if I were the member f or Placentia (Mr. Patterson) - MR. THOMS: Only one minister in the House now. MR.

PATTERSON: You will never be the member for P lacentia. 2737

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 976 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: If I were the member for Placentia, who is now trying to send the poor old people back to the islands who came in with their - MR. PATTERSON: You are the people who rooted them out, drove them out into the water and gave them $2,000 to move to Placemtja. Do not tell me about resettlement and all of that. If you want to know about resettlement,I am here until six o'clock. MR. NEARY: I enjoy hearing the hon. gentleman speak, Mr. Chairman. I wish he would get up and say something to give us a break.

I am sure the hon. gentleman would like to know the same information that we would like to have and that is in connection with the government aircraft. I am sure the hon. gentleman's constituents - MR. PATTERSON: I was never on it yet. MR. NEARY: No, the hon. gentleman may not have been on her. AN HON. MEER: Were you on it? MR. NEARY: Yes, once in my life. I was on once when a minister - yes, I was. A minister was going the same direction I was going. We were both going to my district - MR. THOMS: I am glad you were not going in opposite directions. MR.

NEARY: Well, according to the Auditor General's Report, where you have two pilots - the same pilot flying two different aircrafts the same time, anything is possible. AN HON. MEER: That is the time you were On it. MR. NEARY: No, I was on it, Mr. Chairman, I do not drink so I did not enjoy the hospitality of the hon. gentleman,but'it so happened that the minister was going to my district, he asked me if I would care to go along and I did. 2 73 8

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 976 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: And I am not ashamed of it, not a bit ashamed of it. I am telling the House now, that was about 1976, that must be about five years ago,I would say, five years ago there was some business to be transacted in my district and I went and that is the first and only time I was ever on the government aircraft. But I hear a lot of reports and a lot of stories about the government aircraft that I am not prepared to believe, because I do not want to be accused of innuendo or slander or libel or making false accusations, Mr. Chairman. I am not that kind of a fellow.

All I want to know, I want the government to tell us - and I am not prepared to take the President of the Council who said the aircraft was used for government business. Well, the hon. gentleman also told us that while he is representing the Bank of Montreal in his law practice that when the Bank of Montreal is doing business with the government, when they are advising the government on their finances, that the hox-i. gentleman removes himself from Cabinet meetings. claim it is a conflict of interest.

But the hon. gentleman stands up in this House and says, 'Can you imagine that scum from Bell Island, can you imagine that low.1ife creature on the other side looking at me and saying that I would do something wrong? I can 2739

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 977 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: tell this House,' that is what he says, Mr. Chairman, I would tell the House that I would do nothing wrong.' But how do we know that, Mr. Chairman? How do we know? We heard a number of ministers tell us they would not do anything wrong. The latest example is the former Minister of Transportation who got up and misled this House, and the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) and the former Minister of Transportation who is now Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) .

The Public Accounts Committee found him guilty as charged, guilty of deliberating violating the Public Tendering Act. And what did the Premier do then, what did he say to this House? It was just a misunderstanding between the minister and the Public Accounts Committee, A unanimous decision of the Public Accounts Committee, seven members, four of which are Tories, Tory members, government members: The Premier tells us it is just a little bit of a misunderstanding. Well, Mr.

Chairman, as I said earlier that is a poor track record for a government that has been telling us all lon t they are going to he honest and open and aboveboard. Now how can the member for St. Thbn' ('entre (Dr. McNicholas) sit there and listen to the hypocrisy. They are going to be an open government and all we do is ask - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) listening to that now. MR. S. NEARY: Listening to what now? Open government? Do you think that the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) and the Minister of Finance are open with the people of this Province when they say,'Take our word for it, the government aircraft was only used for governmentbusiness?' Is that being open? Or are we entitled to have the dates the aircraft went aloft and 2740

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 977 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: the names of the massengers on the aircraft and the purpose of the trip? Are we entitled to have that? Are the taxpayers entitled to have information? Are the taxpayers entitled to know how much booze was con- sui-ned on that aircraft when she went aloft? I believe we are, Mr. Chairman, I believe as taxpayers. :ot even as members of the House but as taxpayers I think we are entitled to that information.

And if the government refuses to give the taxpayers that kind of information,then the only conclusion, rightly or wrongly - and I hate to have to say this - the only conclusion that we as members of the Opposition can come to and the taxpayers and the people of this Province can come to is that the government have some- thing to hide, the government do not want the people to have this information the government are covering up for something or other. Otherwise if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is right, the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) is right that the government only used the air- craft for government business,well then why do they not give us the information? It only takes five minutes to get that kind of information. They have had now, they have had since last Thursday to get the House the informa- tion. There are all kinds of other things, Mr. Chairman, that we could ask the minister in connection with the Auditor General's report. We could ask him about the fees paid to public relations firms on behalf of the Special Action Group of which $169,000 has no supporting documents. We could ask the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Otten- heimer) about the police vehicles raised in the Auditor General's report where there seems to be a little bit of abuse going on there. We could ask about the $1.5 million transferred between various accounts in Public Works for cacital expenditure without the approval of the House. We 27i

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 977 DW - 3 MR. S.NEARY: could ask about the overpayment of $57,000 for rental of office space downtown, overyment of $57,000. We could ask about the ?arimutual hettinq procedures down at the Trotting Park that has been raised by the Auditor General. We could ask about cheques that are issued without agreements.

We could ask again about the Traffic Court where an audit could not be completed for the last fiscal vear.Even though they put in a new system the audit could not be completed because the Traffic Court is in such a schmozzle, in such a mess Ard is it any wonder that people are getting tickets for the second and third time, that people are getting tickets that they should not have to pay, they are forced to pay. The Auditor General tells us that the review of the Traffic Court shows an extensive deficiencies' and he says 272

April 6, 1981 Tape 978 EC - 1 MR. WEARY: it was impossible to do a complete audit. Mr. Chairman, we could go on and on. We could dig in our heels and say we want information on all these matters, but we realize that time is of the importance here time is important in this particular matter that we have under debate now, so rather than ask all these questions on the interim supply, we picked one question that we thought the government could get an answer to in about five minutes, and that has to do with the government aircraft. Now are they ashamed to show us the log? Do they have something to hide?

Why will they not show us the log? And, Mr. Chairman, let me say this right now before my time runs out and I have to take my seat, that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) can have the payroll expenses. The Minister of Finance - and I want this to be recorded up over my head and I want it recorded in such a way that when a reporter approaches me and says, 'Are you going to let the government have interim supply?', it is not up to us, we are the Opposition. We are not governing. If the government wants interim supply let them get it and let the blame fall on the shoulders that are responsible, the government.

So if they want it they can have it. And we are prepared to give the government money for essential services for the next three months, but not for non-essential services unless they give this House the information that we are asking for about the government aircraft. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hears MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, time is getting on N and I thought .1 would like to make a response to a few points that are brought up. 273

April 6, 1981 Tape 978 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: You know, one would have expected interim supply to have been through by now, because there really is not much point in holding it up much longer. One of the difficulties has been that there is such disarray among our friends opposite. MR. EISCOCK: Do we have the answer to the * question? DR.

COLLINS: The front bench opposite, I think last Friday said, 'Yea, we will ask a number of questions, we will get what information is really germane and then we will let interim supply go,' and then any more detailed questioning can be done when the main Estimates come down and the mechanism that has been put in place, special committees who sit for long periods of time and then they come and report to the House and then their report is debated and so on and so forth, a very elaborate mechanism put in place so that hon. members and the public can get a good feel of what the Budget is about.

So the front bench said, 'That is airight. We know that interim supply is just like a down payment, it does not really commit government to anything; it is just ongoing programmes except for those specific ones that are new and therefore have to be told to the House specifically.' And that is what I did when I introduced this bill. So that is what the front bench said, and one would have expected if there had been any cohesion amongst our friends opposite that that would be the end of the -matter.

But rather than that, then we finally have the back bench getting up and saying, 'No, we are not going to go with the front bench, you know, we will do it a different way now.' And then, of course, the front bench is so sparse these days and has such little weight that it really cannot put things into place. So that is one of the problems. Now, the other point that can be made about this aircraft. You know, the hon. member opposite 2744

April 6, 1981 Tape 978 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS: is a great one for coining up with fishing trips, he is a great fisherman. I think he probably is in real life even, but certainly in the House here he is a great fisher. He does not ask for a specific question, 'Look, I have a specific point that I want information on.' He does not know what he is looking for so he just casts out a net broadly and says, 'Just give me any information you have and if it is something that I find useful I will use it, if it does not mean anything I will not use it,' and, you know, that is his approach to matters.

Now, just think what he is asking for. He is asking for details about the use of the government aircraft. Now, the government aircraft is not an aircraft that one goes out and hires for 'on a trip' basis. If that were the case, I think there might be a point in saying, 'Alright, document every trip now because every trip that is made costs the public a certain amount of money.' But that is not the case at all. 2745

Aoril 6, 1981 Tape No. 979 EL - 1 DR. COLLINS: the aircraft is owned by the govern- ment,and is out there whether it is used ever through the year, it is out there. There are nilots employed to run the govern- 3 ment aircraft. They are out there, If it is never used by anyone, they are out there and they have to bp paid. Mow. th goverrmlent aircraft is not used only for administrative act- ivities although it is very important to have it for that. As a matter of fact, the governmsnt aircraft is usd, T would say, more than fifty per cent of the time for emergency medical services.

Many time when it was to be put to administrative use, that has to be put aside because the people wanting to use it for legitimate administrative use are bumped asided and told, no, we have to no wherever, Deer Lake or St. Anthony or Lab- rador or whatever for emergency medical services, So the aircraft has to be there and if it is never used by a single minister or a sinole member of the government it would still have to be there to take care of those medical servines.

The fact that it is there and it is used once a month, fifty times a month, a thousand times a month, does not increase, exceot for the gas used, does not in- crease cost to government by one iota. Now, certainly if the hon. the Prem- ier wants to make a trip for administrative purposes, government administrative purposes to Deer Lake and he goes by himself in the aircraft or he takes an elephant with him, or he takes any- thina at all with him or any person with him, it does not increase the expenses to government by one iota.

It does not have any im- pact whtever upon the exchequer of this Province1 So this ques- tion being asked by the hon. the member for LaPoile(S.Neary) is totally frivolous, it has no weight to it at all, it is totally spurious. And,jf course, he is just looking to fish for something and if he can get a name that he can think is related 2746

Aoril 6, 1981 Tape No. 979 EL - 2 DR. COLLINS: in some way to something that he might, by association, bring some doubt about it, he would be absolutely delighted. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): A point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I have let the hon. qentleman ramble on now, Mr.

Chairman, imputing motives, and Your Honour knows the rules of the House that that is not permitted under the rules of this House and I would ask Your Honour to ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw these statements that he is making, these foolish silly, childish, ridiculous, untrue statements. We are merely lookinq for inforinatio, Mr. Chairman. DR. COLLINS: To that point of order, Mr Chairman. The hon. member himself has stated that there is something to hide there. He is making an accusation, I am responding to that accusation.

There is nothing that I have said that is imputing motives that the hon. member himself has not brought forward. He said, 'There is somethinq to hide in the use of the government aircraft, and I am responding to that. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that noint of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman just made another untrue, incorrect statement, Mr. Chairman.

What I said was this, that if the government continues to stonewall, if the government continues to stonewall and does not hive the House this inform- ation,then the only conclusion that we can come to is that they have something to hide. Now, that is different than what the hon. gentleman is saying. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, merely a difference of opinion. The hon. the Minister of Finance. 277

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 979 EL - 3 I DR. COLLINS: Mr.Chairman, there is every good reason why many things that are necessary for the administration of government are not brought out in all their stark details at the drop of a hat. If that were so, if this House had to nass on every adminstrative move made by this government, govern- ment would very quickly seize up. If every time that an ad- ministrative move is made, it was to be questioned in the House1 soon administrative moves would have to be made only with the permission of this House. And this government 27B

* April 6, 1981, Tape 980, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: could not act1 Therefore it is a principle with this government, with every government, the federal government itself has the same attitude toward this type of thing that all the provincial governments have as well as our provincial government, that is that for the efficient operation of government the government must have certain prerogatives to get on with the job and must not be hindered and hampered by spurious and frivolo. questions in the House. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there are many larger issues here, and I think my colleague the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) brought this up, there are many issues of substance that could be brought up in regard to this Interim Supply Bill, issues related to the use of the natural resources of this Province for the betterment of the citizens, issues brought up in relation to the social services that this government is exhIbiting for the benefit of the citizens of this Province,and so on and so forth.

These are the issues of importance, not whether someone takes a trip that might be questioned, is that worth the trip for the benefit returned to the government? These are judgement calls. An administrative decision may be made to use the aircraft to go somewhere, to do somethingand one person may say it should not have been used for that purpose and another person would say it should have been used for that purpose, it is purely a judgement call.

And in regard to the Premier's office,I would think that hon. members in this House, and the public generally, will agree and say that the Premier has very, very good judgement ninety-nine times out of a hundred. On the passing of this bill, Mr., Chairman, I think that hon. members will appreciate that government, despite what the hon.the 2749

April 6, 1981, Tape 980, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: iflelUber for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says, will not be blamed for what is going on if this Interim Supply Bill is held up. Everyone in this Province knows why this Interim Supply Bill is 3 being held up; it is being held up because of a frivolous matter and the people who are going to be hurt directly are the public servants of this Province. And I might say, Mr. Chairman, that the public servants, some public servan-s in this Province have already suffered, they will not get their cheques when they should get them.

There are certain mechanisms that have to go through to get the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is your fault now. MR. CHAIRNAN(Eaird) : Order, please DR. COLLINS: - cheques out and in outlying areas those steps have to be put in place a number of days before the actual pay day. There is no way that certain public servants in this Province can get paid on Wednesday. Now, if the Interim Supply Bill does not go through today, there will be a large number of public servants who will not get paid on Wednesday so that - MR. NEARY: Why not tell us what we want to know. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, pleased DR.

COLLINS: - there are already public servants in this Province who are suffering and will suffer, and their familes will suffer because of this delay. And the hon. members opposite have made a lot of debating points recently about how they are concerned about the bpulic servants in this Province in terms of their pay. Well, Mr. Chairman, there are public servants in this Province presently suffering,and their families will suffer, because of the actions of the Opposition in regard to this Interim Supply Bill. And the people who are suffering, and the public themselves, will be well aware of who caused 2750

April 6, 1981, Tape 980, Page 3 -- apb DR. COLLINS: that difficulty. So I would trust that hon. mambers opposite will not cause undue suffering to the public servants of this Province and will let this bill go through. -4 I I 2 751

April 6,1981 Tape No. 981 AH-1 DR. COLLINS: The hon. member , I think,also brought up about the Auditor Generals Report and he read Off a long list where the Auditor General quite rightly brought certain points to the attention of the hon.members of this House. I think that if one revis this, it is probably the mildest report that has ever come into this House from the Auditor General. And secondly, at the time that the Auditor General's Report came ingovernnienttabled with it this document which laid out in detail our response to every single item brought up by the Auditor General.

So that, you know, talking about the Auditor General's Report again is a nice debating point but really has not got very much substance to it.. So , Mr. Chairman, I would move that this resolution be passed. MR. L. THOMS: Some chance. Some chance. MR.CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. member for Eagle River. \/ MR.HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, I am rather surprised by what I just heard. When the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) turns around and says that if the government here has asked for administrative details, if the Opposition asks something to do with the administration of government, if we ask for some information because it is of an administration nature we cannot get it. Mr. Chairman, what are we here as a government and opposition and spending the taxpayersmoney when we, both sides, can ask questions about administration and how things are going and how money is being spent and how it is being wasted and how it is being saved and X number of other things. So, Mr. Chairman, we have asked the question.

We could turn around and keep asking,as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Weary) asked fifty we could turn around and ask. fifty more and not get them. It is the principle of this matter now that it has come down to. We have turned 2752

April 6,1981 Tape No. 981 AH-2 MR. RISCOCK: around and asked one question with regard to the government aircraft and that is basically the question that we are asking and I am amazed at the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and this government turning around and not providing us with the number of flights, not providing who was in the aircraft, not providing us with where. they were going. And , Mr. Chairman, I do not think for $1 billion - you often hear of a $1 million question, well,that is a $1 billion question, ask a $1 billion question.

All we need it that information.And when it comes to innuendo, we are not reflecting anything on the Premier, we are not questioning the Premier's integrity. But I will go so far as to say this, Mr. Chairman, one of the rules of Opposition is you never ask a question unless you know the answer. So we know the answer but we want the public to know the answer. If we turn around and give the answer then the government will turn around and say we are trying to muddy, stain, give innuendoes and go on a character assassination of the Premier sotherefore,let the facts speak for themselves.

We know the answer to the nuestion, Mr. Chairman. But with regard to the other question, I was amazed at the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins)when he actually said that the Premier was right ninety per cent of the time. That is fine. MR. WEARY: inety-nine. MR. HISCOCK: Ninety-nine per cent of the time. Our job as the Opposition is to make sure it is ninety-nine per cent of the time and not the fault that will come with one mistake. The Premier is not infallible, as much as the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) would like to think,and particularly the advice he is giving.

The Premier 4 is not infallible. And our job as an Opposition is to make sure that the Premier, all the Cabinet, the backbenchers, the Opposition and all the civil servants are kept on their toes. And when we ask a question in this House,if we cannot get 2753

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 981 13-3 MR. HISCOCK: the answer to one particular thing because the Premier is right ninety-nine per cent of the time-'e have a Premier now who not only knows what is right but does right. But somewhere along the line he might make a mistake one per cent of the time. And we S 275c

April 6, 1981 Tape 982 EC - 1 MR.HISCOCK: as an Opposition, are told to forget about it, forget about that 1 per cent whatever it may be. That 1 per cent, my dear Mr. Chairman, in this House, could cost this government and these people $.5 billion or $200 million. The Premier told us, Mr. Chairman, that Come By Chance was going to be opened up in ninety days. He said he was right on that. But, Mr. Chairman, here it is now, o-:r six hundred and something. The Premier also told us that we were going to get the oil in off the Grand Banks by pipeline. Is the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) telling us that now? So, Mr. Chairman, it is. not our job as the Opposition to accept the words of the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) , as true as they may be or any minister or any premier or any civil servant. Our job is not to accept them on their face value, our job is to get the facts and know the facts, Mr. Chairman. So when it comes to this government trying to say that the Opposition is the reason why the public service and the other people will not get it, we have already stated that we will pass enough interim supply to make sure that these people will get paid.

Has the government decided this? No, the government said, 'All or nothing,' again dictatorial tactics, going on and having their own way. And, Mr. Chairman, this Province is expecting to have good government. The government can only be as good as the Opposition. Now, we are being told that the Premier only will make mistakes 1 per cent of the time so therefore, 'tD not ask questions; we know what we are doing and what we are doing is right,' Mr. Chairman. I would ask the people who had the community pastures that were turned over to private enterprise, do they think that was right?

I would ask the school boards with regard to Grade XII coming in, do most 2755

April 6, 1981 Tape 982 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: of the school boards think that is right? With regard to the nurses, there is going to be a shortage of nurses here in this Province. We need over 300 nurses, and here is the rc"rnment going away to Ireland, England and Scotland and havincT-what? - recruitment. And here we have Alberta coming to Newfoundland and recruiting people to go out to Alberta bedause this government here will not give them a decent wage. So when the people do not get their cheques, Mr. Chairman, do not go on the fact that we are making people suffer.

We find ourselves now in a Province where our students with their B.A.s and want to go and do their Masters or their P.H.D. at Harvard or Yale or the London School of Economics, are they getting any help from this government? No, we are going to London and we are going to Washington and we are going to Ottawa and Montreal and bringing them here. So, Mr.

Chairman, when it comes to asking how this $.5 billion is being spent, this question that we are asking of the Premiers office is only one technical question that we want from an administrative point of view to find out if this government is concerned about the conflict of interest and a great big show - the snow job. You can bring in all the conflict of interest legislation that you want and if one Cabinet minister or one backbencher wants to do something he is going to do it or she is going to do it.

And you can bring in all the freedom of information you want and give the rosy picture that we have an open and honest government. Here now, we want one question answered, and are we getting it? Are we getting the answer to only one small, minute administrative detail that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins( calls frivolous? Frivolous , yet we are not getting it. So, Mr. Chairman, if the people will not bepaid, it is not from the point of view of the Opposition. The Opposition's job is to oppose and 2756

April 6, 1981 Tape 982 EC - 3 MR. HISCOCK: point out that we need good, honest government and representation and if we are going to have this good, honest representation that the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) supports 100 per cent, then 4 I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that the member for Stephenville also wants to know the answer to that question, wants to 4 know as well as all the other people in this House. So, Mr. Chairman, to say that the Opposition is actually holding up the interim supply - if the government wanted, it would have had it long, lonq apo. MR. STAGG: Where have you been all the time? 4 4 2757

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 983 DW - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: And, Mr. Chairman, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) asked where have I been all the time? I would assume I have been in the same place where all the Cabinet ministers and all their (inaudible),. but I have done the work. The work is done. So I am back now with the work done, Mr. Chairman. So, Mr.

Chairman, with regard to the interim supply and with regard to a half a billion dollarssurely the citizens of this Province who elected this government over one of the best men in this country and decided to give this young, bold, aggressive, new- style Premier a chance - now the Premier is being put to a test, he was being put to the test with the Minister of Transportation, he was out to the test with the Minister of Fisheries and now he is being put to the test through his own office. And where is he? As I said,.the doctors ordered him four days rest because of exhaustion.

He can- not even keep up with the pressure, a young man and here we have a former Premier eighty years old who is still working sixteen hours a day. So, Mr. Chairman, if we cannot have an answer to one simple question then I can this, it is just as well for the Opposition and it is just as well for the people of this Province never to have an election, just throw it on over to the government and turn it over to the Premier. Because the Premier knows right, the Premier • does riqht and the Premier will always be right and he is infallible. I should say, Mr.

Chairman,that our Premier should turnaround and go on to Rome and take up a new office andnot take up the office of the Prime Minister. MR. CHAIR?AN (Butt) : Order, please The hon. member's time has expired. Shall the resolution carry? 275

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 983 DW - 2 MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I am never otherwise but statesman like. And there are some puestions that I would like to raise in the few minutes that are avail- able to me. Mr. Chairman, I, first of all, just want to allude to a statement made by the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) . It is unfortunate that he is not here. But I do want to allude to a state- ment that he made recently concerninc the display - the performance I should say - by the Leader of the Opposi- tion (Mr.

Stirling) on a recent television programme with respect to the squabble,or with respect to the argu- ment that is presently going on between the government and the Nova Scotian Government re the Northern cod. And, Mr. Chairman, it is rather interesting that the Leader of the Opposition did go on that programme to state what this party's position was with respect to ironing out that squabble. And the Premier himself, Mr.

Chairman, would not show on that programme. i think that is the programme that the Premier would not go on to demonstrate to the people of Newfoundland his very concern for what was happening with his minister, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the Minister of Fisheries in the Nova Scotian Government. But, Mr. Chairman, that is not the point that I want to allude to because we cleared up that position. What I want to talk about is the employment - or the odd employment figures used by the minister at that particular time. Now, Mr.

Chairman, we know that we can play around with statistics and do anything,oracticallywe want with them. But I want to out some accuracy to these figures because naturally the minister will use the statistics in a way that is most favourable to the government. 2759

April 6, 1981 Tape 984 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: What the minister stated, Mr. Chairman, was that the unemployment rate had dropped from 17.7 per cent to 12.7 per cent since Premier Peckford took over the administration of the government. In other words, there was a drop, or there was an improvement of 5 per cent in the unemployment rate in this Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is not accurate. That is totally inaccurate. What the minister was using, number one, was the seasonally adjusted figures. And, Mr.

Chairman, you do not use seasonally adjusted figures over a long period of time, what you use over a long period of time is the actual figure or the average figures for the year because they are available. The average figures for the year are the ones that we would use when talking about a yearly unemployment situation.

And what the minister did was to take a figure a month, take a particular month in 1978 when the Premier assumed office, took that unemployment rate, which at that time was 17.7 per cent and then for the comparison again took the unemployment rate for the nonth of February, and as all hon. members know, these monthly statistics are completely unreliable, they give us no idea about the direction of the economy.

And it is not the thing to do, to use these monthly figures, number one, and number two, seasonally adjusted, when we are trying to give the people of this Province some idea of the direction in which the economy of this Province is moving. Now, Mr. Chairman, just let me tell hon. members what the actual figures were and these are the ones, as I have said before, that indicate 2760

April 6, 1981 Tape 984 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: the way the economy of the Province is moving. In 1978 the actual figures, the figures averaged out for the year, showed our unemployment rate to be at 16.4 per cent. In 1979 it was 15.4 per cent, a drop of an improvement of 1 per cent over that one year period. p In 1980, Mr. Chairman, and that is as far as we can go to show any accuracy, in 1980 it had dropped to 13.5 per cent, an improvement, Mr. Chairman, and one that we on this side of the House welcome.

Any improvement in the unemployment picture, naturally it has to be greeted by all Newfoundlanders with some degree of delight, shall we say. So in 1980 the unemployment rate for the Province was 13.5 per cent which demonstrates that from 1978 to 1980 there was a drop, or an improvement in the unemployment rate by 2.9 per cent, just under 3 per cent, and not the 5 per cent that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) talks about. So there was a drop, an improvement from 1978 to 1980 of 2.9 percentage points. So, Mr.

Chairman, if we are telling the people, if we are trying to demonstrate to the people of this Province anything at all about the unemployment rate, we shculd at least be accurate and take the figures which more clearly demonstrate the position of the Province. So, Mr. Chairman, rather than 5 per cent we are talking about 2.9. 2751

April 6, 1981 Tape 984 PK - 3 MR. LUSH: And we cannot use the figures of February and March and April because they mean nothing, it is the yearly figures that we have to look at. And the other point I make is, and maybe the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) can answer this query, it is an important one in that the hon.

Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn), every time a monthly statistic comes out and it looks like it is improved, Sir, he jumps up and down in his place, you would not know that the world was coming to an end, proud that we have an unemployment rate of 12.7 or some outrageous figure like that. The question that needs to be answered is this, since the government have predicted an unemployment rate for the Province, the 14 per cent over the next five years and now the Minister of Labour and Manpower is very proud that it is down to 12.7, V 2 76 2

April 6, 1981 Tape No. 985 EL - 1 MR. LUSH: does that cast any error on the figures projected by the government in their Five Year ln? Is there a combination of new circumstances now which demon- strate that that figure is not accurate, that indeed over the next five years the unemployment rate will not be fourteen percent but that it is going to go down to ten per cent or that it is going to go down to nine per cent But, Mr.

Chairman, if I were an hon. member sitting on the other side, I would take no creat deliqht in telling the people of this Province that we still have an unemployment rate of 12.7 per cent, just below thirteen per cent, an outrageous figure, Mr. Chairman, bathing to be boasting about.And Iould not be talking about it at all, Mr.

Chairman, exceot that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (J.Dinn) seems to take such great delight in the fact that our unemployment rate is just below thirteen Per cent.But the ques- tion that needs to be asked now is is there any accuracy to the govern- ment's forecast Df the fact that our unemployment rate over the next five years will stay at around fourteen per cent or is it noing to go down, let us say, over the next five years to a fioure of ten per cent? MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): The hon. members time has expired. MR. LUSH: That is what I would like to have the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins)