Manitoba Hansard — 22 Aprill 1974 (Sitting 97, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-97

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXI No. 97 2:30p.m., Monday, April 22nd, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin PI., Winnipeg R3J 3La Bl RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative B ldg., Winnipeg R3C ova BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 222a Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Harvey Patterson NDP 97a Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova EMERSON Steve Derewianchu k NDP Vita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. as Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 132 Osborne St.

S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.C. Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man.

ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Tu rnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Maliilowski NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. 135- 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1WB RHINE LAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Ya RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. I nglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J.

Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Harvey Bostrom NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1EO ST. BONIFACE J. Paul Marion Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George Minaker P.C. 31a Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3Ja ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 41a Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste.

Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SOURIS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 1171 Westwood Dr.,T hompson RaN OGa TRANSCONA Hon.

Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Phi lip M. Petursson NDP 6a1 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY I.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, Aprill 22, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 2633 MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable First Minister. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I might indicate that I have a statement to make relative to the flood damage situation and I expect the copies of the report to be in momentarily.

I will ask the Clerk perhaps to check to see if they are available, and I would ask for leave, if I have to leave the Chamber for a minute, to obtain such copies and return. In the meantime, I would like to table Return to Orders Numbers 21, 35, 36, 38, 39 and 40, if I may just do that now. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? The Honour able House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources & Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to indicate a meeting of the Committee on Economic Development to receive the report of Manitoba Mineral Resources Limited, and I would like to indicate that the latest report available is the one that was filed in the House last year, so there will not be a new one filed. There will be a report this year but it is not yet ready; the president of the company will be prepared to deal with questions up to the current time but I would like the committee to hear him on Thursday. Thursday at 10:00 o'clock. A MEMBER: What about tomorrow? MR.

GREEN: Tomorrow is, I've announced Public Utilities to hear Autopac, the Director of Autopac. MR. SPEAKER: We shall proceed and the Honourable First Minister will have an opportunity when he gets in, Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet) introduced Bill No. 52,

an Act to amend The Credit Unions Act. MR. J. R. BOYC E (Winn ipeg Centre), on behalf of the Member for Radisson, introduced Bill No. 53,

an Act for the Relief of Jessie Ellen Gillespie. MR. BOYCE, on behalf of the Member for Wellington, introduced Bill No. 56,

an Act to incorporate United Health Services Corporation. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia) introduced Bill No. 57,

an Act to incorporate The North Canadian Trust Company. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS, Continued- Flooding of Rivers MR. SPEAKER: May we now go back to Ministerial Statements? The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I have additional copies of statements here (five in number) which I would ask to be distributed in the usual way, and the statement relates to the flood situation as of the most recent report earlier today.

The heavy rains over the past weekend will result in higher river flows, particularly on the Red River, to the extent that a number of additional steps will have to be taken to protect people and property. The Red River is expected to peak along its entire course, which is perhaps somewhat unusual, from Emerson to the floodway inlet on Friday and most of the peak will occur at the 1966 flood level. In one particular stretch, the river, from Turnbull Drive upstream to St. Adolphe, the river will crest some four to five feet higher than in 1966.

Consequently we are calling for the evacuation of residents and farm families along this part of the Red River and arrangements are presently underwway to assist on this evacuation. The community of St. Adolphe itself is surrounded by a ring dike but as a precautionary measure EMO will evacuate the residents, and local authori ties have been contacted. Reception centers are being established by the City of Winnipeg on the east and west

263 4 April 22, 1974 FLOOD (MR. SCHREYER cont 'd) ••• sides of the Red River within the City to register evacuees and to assign accommodation to those who will not be making their own arrangements. The towns and villages south of St. Adolphe have ring dikes built to the 1950 flood level and we fully expect these communities will be adequately secured or protected. As well, most of the farmsteads in the valley are either on pads or are diked to the 1950 level. However, many of these homes will be isolated by water and the farm families, at least some, will most likely have to move.

To that end and to assist in the movement of livestock such as have not already been avacuated, a provincial government co-ordinator will be established in Morris, probably as of later today, to work with municipal officials on this program. The rains did not affect the Assiniboine River to the same extent. The heavy flow of water is in the river upstream from the Portage Diversion with the crest currently at Holland, Manitoba. However, some 16,000 to 18,000 cfs is being diverted into the Portage Diversion leaving a flow of 15,000 cfs, in the Assiniboine itself at the town of Portage and downstream.

Dikes along this reach are built to the 20,000 cfs level and therefore we expect the water to remain within its diked banks. On the Diversion itself, because of the heavy flow, there will be some water spilling from the Diversion at the northern end within the Delta Marsh area. With respect to Winnipeg, the peak stage will be on the neighbourhood of 18 to 19 feet above winter datum, well within the channel capacity of the river. Considerable flows are diverted into the Red River floodway. In this connection, I would like to point out two facts based upon advice received.

First, there is no increase in the level of the Red River in the Turnbull Drive, St. Adolphe area that is attributable to the operation of the inlet structure. The water level in the area is and will be a natural one. Honourable members would like to know that we have had and continue to have flooding in many other areas of the province. Carman is a trouble area with the Boyne River, however, fortunately, no longer rising as of earlier today, and there has been trouble in many areas of the Interlake and other parts of the province.

We have declared a limited state of emergency as of last week and are advising the Government of Canada of this to bring into force the agreed upon cost- sharing formula for such situations. As well, we will be re-activating the Manitoba Flood Board, which will administer a program of compensation and other financial assistance to property owners directly affected from the flooding of designated rivers and streams in the province, and also with respect to municipal local government damages.

The level of such compensation will be determined after the situation within the province has been reviewed and assessed, after cresting has taken: place obviously. This very briefly reviews what really is a major operation. Individuals, municipalities, the armed services, federal government departments, are working well with our provincial officials in meeting a series of widespread problems. One such example is the airlifting by Canadian Forces of more than 1, 000 residents of the Peguis and Fisher Branch Indian Reserves at Hodgson and transportation by school buses to accommodation centres at Gimli.

This operation was planned late Saturday. Preparatory arrangements were made throughout the night and evacuation was accomplished on Sunday under adverse conditions. Throughout these continuing times the efforts of all people in many areas of the province are helping to overcome a demanding problem with a skill and determination that speaks well for Manitobans. In particular, I would like to take this opportunity to commend the personnel of EMO, of the Canadian Forces, and municipal authorities for the needed co-operation received to date. I might add as an aside, Mr.

Speaker, that the water control engineering works that were built in the decade of the Sixties, such as the Red River Floodway, Portage la Prairie Diversion and the dam at Shellmouth, are all standing a very real test this year and are -I beli.eve it could be put in layman's terms - saving the City of Winnipeg from a level of water that would be approximately 10 to 12 feet higher than 1950 conditions had they not existed, and of course are also providing some considerable protection to other communities upstream - upstream on the Assiniboine, upstream on the--well, that wouldn't be appropriate, but certainly upstream on the Assiniboine as well.

All in all, these engineering works are preventing flood damage that would be much larger than is likely to be the case at the present time. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I thank the First Minister for the statement produced to the House today. I think at the outset that we on this side would want to express our appreciation to all those who have

April 22, 197 4 2635 FLOOD (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ... been involved in the effort that has been putf orwardsofar. Certainly in terms of the reports that have been presented to us, to the members of our caucus and to my office, a massive effort has been undertaken and it is to the credit ofEMO that they have been able to handle it as best they have up to date, but the problems are not over and I'm going totry and deal with them in the next few moments.

But certainly those who have been involved have done a commendable job and de serve recognition and support, and we on this side would agree with the statements of the First Minister in this respect. Having said that, and for the purposes of assisting at this point in what is an emergency for this province, I would like to indicate one general problem area that does exist and that is the problem of conflicting information that has been produced.

The First Minister has given us information, part of which appears to be reassuring, part of which may or may not be in conflict with some statements that have been made at different times by some who have spoken with some authority, and the difficulty is that this has caused us some confusion. I want to, ifl can, zero into a specific area of concern and that deals with the Turnbull Drive area in St.

Norbert, and to indicate to the First Minister that it is our opinion, based on the information that we now have available, that there was in fact some difficulty caused as a result of conflicting information gi ven to the residents, and as a result they now face an emergency situation which I believe warrants the government's immediate action, even to the point of asking the Army to go in to assist the people now in trying to get themselves out of the area and to get their furniture out of the area because of the damage that will occur in the obvious increase of the level that's going to take place in that area, will be taking place in that area.

And !would ask the First Minis ter to consider this as a request and to determine with his officials whether there's justification for it and, if there is, to try and get the assistance. The Army's requirement is needed because of the neces sity of the boats and the transportation to be able to bring the people out from that area. Our informa tion is that this is a very real situation and that we are dealing with something that has even changed in the last few hours.

Having said that, I'd like to make one other, or one general observation with respect to the secur itythat exists for the City of Winnipeg and really along the Red River itself.

The real major flood threats to the province were solved as a result ofthe Floodway, as a result oftheShellmouth Dam and as a result of the Portage Divers ion, as a result of the whole drainage program of the years gone by, and I must say that I stand here as the Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party and I'm happy to stand here as the leader of a party who was responsible for much of what was undertaken, which has in fact saved the City of Winnipeg and much of our rural portion up to this point, and will save them from any major disaster. lean 't help but think, Mr.

Speaker, and I say this in a partisan way but I think it has to be said, of the abuse that the Former Premier of this province, Premier DuffRoblin, took from many people for Duff's Ditch, and particularly from the Official Opposition of the time; and I say that because I think credit is due to him and to his foresight, and to the foresight of the government, to see to it that money was spent at a time when money was not as plentiful as it is in the provincial coffers today, to have the undertaking taken so that in effect the City of Winnipeg and the area around theRedRiver would in fact be protected.

Having said that, I think we now must address ourselves, not today, beeause today the emergency is upon us, but we must address ourselves in the very immediate future to the problems of the lesser rivers and to the necessity of additional programs being undertaken so that in effect the situation that exists today will not occUcr again, because it is not necessarily an extraordinary set of circumstances. The fact is that there are, or there must be undertakings by government with respect to the lesser rivers. Now, we are dealing at a time I've indicated, Mr.

Speaker, when there really is more revenue than the governments of the years before, who were involved in major undertakings, some $10D million, and it would seem to me that there are a number of things that should and must be done with respect to the problem and I suggest these possibilities. I do not suggest them necessarily as the solution, but certainly with the question of a diversion around Carman, certainly with respect to some of the programs that have been considered with respect to the Whitemouth River and Westbourne and Gladstone. And I could go on. I only indicate this, Mr.

Speaker, to indicate to the government that once this emergency is over, it will be necessary for the government to address itself to the programs that will deal with the lesser rivers, which will necessitate new activity and new initiatives and some, you know, resolution of the discuss ions that have taken place over a period of time dealing with possibilities with respect to the lesser rivers. Mr. Speaker, we will have problems to deal with afterwards with respect to the cost to the municipalities and the cost to the individuals who in fact have suffered as a result of this

2636 April 22 , 1974 FLOOD (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ... emergency, and there is no question that the government will have to address itself to solving this 0 The First Minister has referred to the fact that there will be a limited state of emergency declared, and he's advised the Federal Government of this, which means, I would expect, that the disaster area requirements would be met and this then would put into application a method by which there can be some solution, financial solution, offered to assist those people and those municipalities who have this difficulty. I think Mr.

Speaker, it would be necessary at this time - and obviously there'.ll be opportunity in the question period to direct this to the First Minister - for some elaboration of this because I think there is a need, based on the information available to our office and to the members of our caucus, for some further clarification so that in effect there will be an understanding of what will be declared a disaster area and how and in what way there will be solutions found and monetary arrange ments arrived at, so that the loss will not be great for those who have suffered. To this extent, Mr.

Speaker, we commend those who have assis ted in connection with this emergency and the work that's been undertaken so far. We believe there is still work that must be done which will be classified as an emergency effort, and we would request that the government consider the one matter that I have referred to immediately. We also believe the time has come for the government to consider the necessity of new programs and new initiatives for the lesser rivers of Manitoba. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H, AS PER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Liberal Party I want to express the sense of sympathy we feel for the people whose lives have been endangered or whose property has been damaged, and certainly whose lives have been seriously dislocated by the events of the past few days, and like the Leader of the Official Opposition I want to add my very deep congratulations and commendation to the Emer gency Measures officers, Canadian Forces, who were thrown into this very quickly on, I be lieve Saturday evening and who performed under incredible circumstances a very important task of evacuation, and more so, Sir, to the - as I understand it at this moment- thousands of Manitoba volunteers who have come from all over the place to aid in the evacuation and to give of their homes, their personal belongings and so on, to those who have been wiped out, so to speak, in the last few hours.

It's, I think, a very magnificant and typical, of course, of Manitoba generosity and good will towards our fellow men, that this has happened, but it's also something that it's nice to have brought again to our attention and be reminded of the good will that exists in this province 0 Mr. Speaker, I don't think we are in a position to make any detailed comment on the First Minister's statement, for which we thank him. I think we would like to know more information at the earliest possible moment. For example, how many families are affected?

How much land may be kept out of production for the year cleaning up after this is over? We're curious -I 'm sure the First Minister is too, and the Honourable Mines Minister -a s to how the earlier reports for the past few weeks could have escaped this possibility. Perhaps the diking could have begun sooner. Mr. Speaker, of course I don't say that in a critical way of the government because it's not necessarily a government problem; it may be a municipal problem.

But I think when these things happen we have to do a very searching examination, and I hope the First Minister will conduct that, to determine whether there was any way we could have known sooner so that preventative action could have been taken, because the calls have been coming in to the office, my own office this morning. There seems to be some in dication that the transmittal of the emergency from local residents to those who could have helped them was, in some cases, lacking or inadequate.

Lwould like to know if it could have been foreseen, if steps could have been taken to prevent some of the risk, some of the loss. I'd like to know, and I hope the First Minister will report again to the House, as to whether anything more must be done now in terms of diking, or whether the crest has passed and whether there is nothing physical left to do except compensate and return people to their homes when it's over. I'd like to know, too, what the government is doing- and perhaps the Agriculture Minister might be able to tell us - for stranded animals.

My understanding from calls to my office this morning is that several hundred have now drowned, whether it's cattle or horses, but I believe the count that I have heard was that it was over a hundred, perhaps into the two hundred, and perhaps the Minister can let us know if any plans are being made for air dropping feed to

April 22, 1974 2637 FLOOD (MR. ASPER cont'd). .t he cattle and the horses who may or may not be stranded.

I hope, too, that the First Minister--and I notice he alludes to it in his statement--! hope the First Minister will recognize that when the compensation formulas were struck, which will obviously have to be dealt with as rapidly as possible, they were struck in an earlier time and the concept o:ti: damage was different in the '50s and the '60s, and I would hope that he would personally review the formulas that have been applied in the past, because in my personal experience in settlements during the '50s and '60s of those claims, Mr.

Speaker, the machinery is not quite adequate to compensate for the kind of damage people really suffer in these kind of emergencies. So I would ask the First Minister, and I'm surehe will err on the side of genero sity if there is to be any error, to personally review the formula so that the people of Manitoba who have been injured and damaged will, to whatever extent money can help, will be adequately helped. I think, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has made the point and there's no point in belabouring it, that what must come out of this is a review, perhaps, some time by this Assembly, of what future action, what physical action should be taken, whether it's by way of diversion, whether it's by way of more diking and so on, at this time while it's fresh in our mind and while public acceptance of this kind of remedial action would be high. So I look forward to further information from the First Minister and hope that he will take into account the main point that there be a review of the compensation formulas. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I realize that under the rules I cannot respond to many of the questions that have been raised, but I suppose that honourable gentlemen opposite will have some questions to pose in the routine manner during the question period. But, Mr. Speaker, I do have one point. I believe that the way I expressed it I may have put it on the record incorrectly when I referred to the level that the Red River would be at in Winnipeg were there no engineering flood protection works in place.

So that confusion not arise, I would like to simply restate that we are advised that under natural flow conditions which are applicable this year at the present time, that the flow at Redwood Bridge would be approximately 20 percent greater, in other words 120, 000 cfs instead of 100, 000 or 103, 000 as existed in 1950, and that expressed in feet, in levels, it would have meant a level of water approximately 10 to 12 feet higher than we are now anticipating, and even perhaps, Sir, one to two feet higher than the 1950 level. That's the point I tried to make. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: Questions.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I wonder if he could indicate - and this may require a more lengthy explanation than one question - indicate the basic formula that would be provided for assistance to municipalities for public work programs with respect to the emergency and those that would come under a limited emergency or disaster area specification. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, based on discussion that took place at the meeting of the Flood Emergency Committee this morning of Ministers and officials and ad visers, I could indicate to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that we do not intend to make a distinction between emergency or limited emergency insofar as compensation damage assessment is concerned, and the . same formula would be applicable in any event.

And that, by the way, Sir, based on the last time that we had to activate this formula, was that the province undertook to provide 87-1/ 2 percent of the damage costs as assessed and agreed upon, leaving local government with 12- 1/ 2 percent. Now, I'm not indicating that we have closed the books on that formula ttut that's where it stands at the moment. A MEMBER: Have they closed the books? MR': SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder then if the First Minister could indicate the formula that will be arrived at with individuals? Individuals, Mr. Speaker. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to an Order-in-Council that was passed in 1970 -M ay, I believe, of 1970 -w e did set out a formula relating to damage to private property along those streams and waterways that were within the area of designated disaster or damage, and at that point in time the formula, as I recall, was whatever the assessed

2638 April 22, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR, SCHREYER cont'd) .•. damage cost as submitted through the local municipal office, whatever that damage, assessed damage was, up to a maximum of $4, 000.00. Supplementary buildings $500.00. Barns and granaries, farm buildings, to a maximum, actual assessed damage to a maximum of $3, 000, etc. That was the level of magnitude. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether the amount that would be paid under this program for the individuals comes from the amount to be funded under the Emergency Disaster Program - that's federal and provincial.

Then if that's the case, Mr. Speaker, and the First Minister--(Interjection)--Well, possible--! have a supplementary question for the Minister. Possible the First Minister will want to answer that and. . . Well, the supplementary question then would be: will there be any call on the moneys that are - or are there moneys left from the Disaster Fund set up in 1950 for the Winnipeg Flood, which now is separate and apart from government , with respect to compensation for any of the individuals that may have suffered as a result of this emergency? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I would not swear to it that there isn't a small residual amoubt, but the Minister of Finance I believe is the custodian of that fund .. . A MEMBER: No. Federal. MR. SCHREYER: It's under trusteeship, I'm advised, but the substance of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, is that we do have an understanding, in fact I say an agreement, with the Govern ment of Canada with respect to the cost-sharing of flood damage incurred in a year of sub stantial flood emergency conditions, and those are the kind of conditions we face this year as indeed we have on a number of years in the past, and under that program there is a substantial amount of Federal participation. It's on a graduated scale. The first million dollars, thus far, the Federal Government has not indicated any willingness to contribute towards.

The next two million dollars the Federal contribution would be 50 percent. The next two million dollars after that, Mr. Speaker, the Federal participation is 75 percent, and any amount beyond that the Federal participation is 90 percent. Those are the basic parameters of the agreement that stands in place at the present time. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. Order please. The Honourable Member can ask his own question. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, thank you. My question is to the First Minister. I wonder, on the same subject, has he had any preliminary estimates of the total likely damage? MR.

SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I've been asked that question and I would like to be able to give even a very rough approximation, but it's most imprudent to do so, Sir, for the main reason that the water, the flood waters, have not crested in so many places yet, and until flood waters crest it is really crystal ball-gazing to try and give an approximation of damage yet to be done. MR.

ASPER: I thank the First Minister for his answer, and I wonder if he could indicate whether the formula under which compensation is paid includes not only property damage or loss of use of property, but also lost income and personal expenditure in moving and living some place else and having to move out and so on, as opposed to plain property damage. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are, no doubt, always- -if he wants an

interpretation of any kind of emergency compensation agreement, my own impression is that we have not been able to get that

interpretation out of the agreement that exists insofar as the Government of Canada is concerned. However, the point raised by my honourable friend will be taken under further consideration. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I have a final supplementary. Could the First Minister indicate, in fiscal terms or bookkeeping terms, where the provincial share which may, as he says, be a million or ten million without knowing yet, where w:> uld it come from? Would it come from the Emergency Municipal Fund that we established last year, or would it come from Consolidated Revenue or General Funds?

My question really being, there is no special fund, I take it, that would be able to encompass this kind of damage. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is no special fund as such, because frankly it would be largely meaningless. Whatever the damage is, there is a formula in terms of covering that damage or a major part of it, and whatever that cost is it knowingly has to be shared as between the ·two senior levels of government, and of course municipalities up to now have had a 12 -1/2 percent financial responsibility--on their own damage, that is to say,

April 22 , 1974 2639 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont 'd). • . on municipal property damage. Whatever the amounts in the final analysis are. and these can only be assessed after flood waters have receded, it will have to be dealt with by special provision of this House or by special warrant, gross, and.then recoveries from Ottawa subtracted and a full accounting in Public Accounts. But there again, Mr. Speaker at this poirit in time there is no way of knowing when the actual amounts will have to be raised as such.

Going on the basis of past years, sometimes it's been in June, sometimes in July, and I think even later than that on some occasions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR, WARNER H, JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the First Minister, and it deals with the disaster fund that was set up in 1950 and referred to by the Leader of the Opposition.

I wonder if the Minister could tell the House, because I'm sure there are going to be a lot oi' requests for it, the criteria by which these moneys are paid out only to losses suffered on a personal basis, not house damage or losses from personal effects, and I wonder if the criteria could be established so that we could have it on the record. MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is a fund which, however long it has existed, is not administered by the Crown in the right of the Province of Manitoba, and so whatever is to be related to that fund would have to be done by way of application to the Government of Canada by the Province and, I'm not certain, by private individuals, but I would suspect via the Province to the Federal authorities that do administer that fund. MR, JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that, but there is a specific criteria that is set out which must be adhered to for anybody to receive moneys under that program, and I wonder if the Minister, if they don't have that information now, if he could obtain that informa tion and convey it to the House so that when people come to us asking us about moneys from that fund we are able to tell them how they must qualify, or how they can qualify. MR, SCHREYER: Well exactly so, Mr.

Speaker, that more detailed information can be obtained, and I might add that the Flood Board, when it is constituted, while it will not be administering that particular fund, may be a useful mechanism for relating that information to specific individuals facing specific damage claims. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR, L, R. SHERMAN (Fort Garry): To the Honourable the First Minister, Mr. Speaker.

When the First Minister says that evacuation arrangements are underway in the Turnbull Drive area, I wonder if he could elaborate to the House on what that will consist of and whether the necessary amphibious vehicles have been made available. MR, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, at a meeting this morning we were advised by Emergency Measures personnel that contact has been made with the City of Winnipeg and with local government officials in the RM of Richot with respect to the Turnbull Drive area and south to St. Adol:ohe and St.

Agathe, and that to the extent that evacuation will be deemed necessary-- and this can only be done on a sort of individual assessment basis, the basis of judgment of those who are on the scene from EMO--that they are already making arrangements with Canadian Forces for special ground vehicles, not necessarily amphibious but special ground vehicles and also helicopters, but that is underway already. MR. SHERMAN: I thank the First Minister for his information. I would like to ask him another question.

Has the government granted permission for the raising of the level of the Red River in Winnipeg, in the City of Winnipeg? In other words, has the level at the James Street pumping station, which I think is normally 1 8 feet, been increased and is the government under any pressure from any areas to allow it to be increased even further? MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't advise if government as such is under pressure. I would think that perhaps the Minister of Mines and Resources may be in a position to deal with that.

I would like to think that on the basis of advice of those who are hydraulic or water control engineers, that the flood control works are being operated in such a way as to optimize the flood protection benefits and that it's proceeding on that basis. MR, SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, then could I perhaps rephrase the question and put it to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources? Is the level of the Red River going to be raised inside the City of Winnipeg so as to accommodate part of the flow? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I understand my honourable friend's question. It goes a bit deeper than he has put it in words. There has been continually, ever since the construction

2640 April 22, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ••• of the Red River floodway, the suggestion by people just south of the floodway that the water is artificially raised in their area to keep the water artificially low in the City of Winnipeg.

The people who operate the floodway and its design is based on allowing exactly the same amount of water to flow into Winnipeg but through two channels rather than one; and therefore, despite the argument--and I will never be able to satisfy the people who make the argument nor can I do other than satisfy myself through the engineers-- the water just south of the floodway is the level at which it would be as if no floodway existed. That is the basis of the operation of the floodway.

There has been, some years back, and I presume there would be this year although I haven't heard it personally, the suggestion from people just south of the floodway that the water be allowed to rise higher in Winnipeg, which it's possible to do if you use the floodway in that way, in order to relieve conditions south of Winnipeg.

That is a temptation or an argument that has been continually resisted by any government that has been in power, because it would mean that the floodway would be used as a flood protection device south of Winnipeg rather than around Winnipeg, and I know that there can be arguments that you can let it go one foot higher in Winnipeg to reduce it two foot below. That is not the basis upon which the Red River floodway was constructed and we have resisted in the past and resist now any attempts to use it other than for the purpose for which it was constructed. MR. SHERMAN� One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Is it then incorrect that the level of the Red at the James Street pumping station is higher today, and was mechanically elevated to that higher position today, than is normal? MR. GREEN: Well, I could not answer the question specifically. The only answer I can give to my honourable friend is that the floodway is jesigned so as to permit the water flowing around Greater Winnipeg, or through Greater Winnipeg and through the two channels, to be the same amount of water that would have flown if there was only one channel. There fore I cannot confirm that the water at the St.

James pumping station was higher than it would be under normal conditions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): My question is to the First Minister. The northwestern part of Manitoba flood problems follows some two to two and a half weeks to southern Manitoba. I wonder if the First Minister could inform the House as to whether or not government preparations are being made to help fight the expected floods. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well certainly, Mr. Speaker, I would certainly hope so.

The Honourable Member for Swan River would have ample cause for disgruntlement if all the needed measures were not carried out by Emergency Measures in a way that is perfectly consistent with efforts now being made on various rivers and streams in southern Manitoba, such as at Carman, Arborg, etc. MR. BIL TON: Do I understand the First Minister to say that the same formula will apply to the people in northwestern Manitoba as in Southern Manitoba, as and when the disaster strikes? MR. SCHREYER: Well yes, Mr. Speaker. Consistency is certainly the desire and the insistence.

My honourable friend will appreciate that the areas that are designated for the application of this formula of compensation, really the only way I can put it in general terms, would be all those rivers and streams, watersheds, in which flood damage has taken place. Then, of course, very quickly it becomes a case of actually enumerating which rivers and streams are in the category of substantial, general, widespread damage- as one of the criteria. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Services.

I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if any of the hospitals have been evacuated in the flooded area or closed4 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health & Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, yes, the Arborg Hospital and the St. Benedict Personal Care Home in Arborg were evacuated Thursday night and Friday. The residents were placed in the Deer Lodge Hospital and some at the Hodgson Hospital closer by. As well, the hospital at Carman and the Boyne Valley Personal Lodge which is also in Carman, as well was evacuated on Friday afternoon.

April 22, 1974 2641 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER cont'd) ... I'm informed that at 1:30 this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, a decision was made based on local advice from flood headquarters, a decision to evacuate the Morris Hospital, the Emerson Hospital, the Red River Valley Lodge Personal Care Home, and they'll be placed in Winnipeg Municipal Hospital, in St. Pierre, in Steinbach Hospital, and some of them in Altona Hospital.

The MHSC, working with EMO and the HMO, the Health Maintenance Organization, is working very closely together on this and as other hospitals are menaced in any ways, provision is being made ready to move them. MR. PA TRICK: A supplementary. Is there adequate emergency measures at the present time to evacuate these other hospitals and nursing homes? Has the Minister got enough emer gency facilities as well, hospital beds in Winnipeg or other jurisdiction? MR. MILLER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, of course it depends on the extent of the crisis as it develops but, as I indicated, we have moved some; others are moving this afternoon. They are prepared to move in the St. Adolphe nursing home, the nursing home at Morris, the personal care home at Grunthal, the personal care home in Otterburne, Manitoba and so on. Wherever there is a need, some answer will be found.

I' m pleased to report that the indications in my department are that the response from the public generally has been excellent, the co-operation between the various hea1th facilities has been--you couldn't ask for any more, really, than the way people are responding to this situation, and it seems that people, when faced with a crisis, band together to meet the crisis as it develops and I hope, unless there's a total disaster which isn't predicted, that we will be able to cope as these crises develop. MR. PATRICK: One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps all the people may not be moved out from some of the communities. The hospitals will be evacuated. Will there be any medical facilities or doctor facilities for the rest of the people that are still remaining in the communities? MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not quite sure I fully comprehend that question. If the question is where there are evacuations whether there'll be medical staff available to look after the balance of the community, yes, it's my understanding that that is the case.

In the case of Arborg, for example, some nurses moved into Winnipeg, some into Hodgson, but the medical staff are still in the area. When they move, they simply would then come under- those patients who moved into Winnipeg, Deer Lodge, are being looked after by staff at Deer Lodge. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. I direct my question to the Honourable the First Minister.

In light of the flood emergency, is the government going to make any special concessions with regards to road restrictions for the truckers hauling materials for diking and sandbagging? MR.SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think that the members of the House will agree that there are certain rules and regulations as set out from time to time but under emergency situations I think everyone will agree also that we have to bend these rules, and I would suggest to the honourable member that we have looked at this possibility and I think that we would be prepared to help out in this respect provided of course that, through the Emergency Measures Organization, they are the ones that the truckers should report to and then of course they will relay the message back to the Department of Higbways. MR.

BANMAN: A supplementary question to the Minister of Highways, Mr. Speaker. Would this concession, tben, also apply to farmers hauling wheat out of a flooded area? MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I suppose it would, but I would suggest that at this time it's maybe a little too late. You know, when you get a situation such as we have now, I think that anyone who had grain to .move in the path of the flood, I think should have made provisions to have it moved by now. I think it would be just a little late to look into that matter now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, based on the statement made by the Minister of Health, I wonder if I could ask the Minister the reasoning behind the evacuation of the hospital and the nursing care home in a town that is well protected by dikes such as Morris? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health.

2642 April 22 , 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know, except that I have the report as of 1:30 this afternoon: at Morris Hospital approximately 10 patients would have to be transferred and alternate accommodations ready for the remainder. MR. JORGENSON: Does the Minister have any idea where these patients will be trans ferred? MR. MILLER: I'm not sure. I believe Morris Hospital patients might be going to Steinbach Hospital Monday evening. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sour is -K illarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Highways: and it's regarding Highway 258 north of Glenboro. I'd like to know if he can inform the House who gave directions to the Department of Tourism and Recreation to dike this particular road to hold back water onto a farmer's property and then in such case it's going to damage about 3, 000 bushels of barley of one farmer. It's on 258 just north of Glenboro and south of the bridge on the Assiniboine River, and I phoned--I guess I shouldn't ask any more. That's all, because if I make a speech that's it. MR. SPEAKER: I believe- -o rder please. MR.

McKELLAR: I'd like to know who gave directions to dike that particular highway. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, I would invite the honourable member to give me more particulars on it. . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. AS PER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health.

Could he inform the House whether the abandoned hospitals, or the evacuated hospitals and nursing homes, will have full-time crews kept inside the hospitals or near the hospitals to prevent, as much as possible, destruction through backup .equipment or looting or breaking in that may occur, as often does in these cases? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, in the final analysis that, of course, is a local responsibi lity, the matters of looting and so on.

I don't think that would happen, but in any case it always has been a matter of local responsibility, of local municipalities, the board of the hospital itself, who looks after these things and arranges for it, and I'm sure it's being done. MR. ASPER: A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker.

If emergency surgery and medical facilities are to be maintained in these areas on the assumption that ambulances will be required for heavy surgery or serious surgery to bring patients from rural communities into Winnipeg, do we have enough ambulances, or will the Minister be calling on Saskatchewan or Ontario for some assistance to send in some ambulances? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, as the First Minister indicated, the EMO is in charge of the coordination of all of this.

If they need ambulances, as has been mentioned, I think they have access to it through the Dep1rtment of National Defense or other quarters, and if that comes about then I'm sure they'll avail themselves of those facilities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK ( Riel): Mr. Speaker, I see the Minister of Highways is detained there but I wonder if he could advise the House what the status of Highway 75 is, whether it's likely to be closed or whether he foresees it remaining open. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR •. BURTNIAK: Mr.

Speaker, at this point in time I really couldn't say, but when the crest does arrive there may be a possibility we may have to do that, or perhaps divert some other roads. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I was just going to suggest that we now move to the Order Paper to deal with the matters thereon starting with Bill 8 and proceeding on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Member for Radisson. ANNOUNCEMENT - CHANGE ON COMMITTEE MR. HARRY SHA FRANSKY (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, just before we go into the bills, there's a change in one of the committees, the Public Utilities Committee. I'd like to change the name of the Honourable Member for Thompson for that of the Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

April 22, 1974 2643 CHANGE ON CO MMITTEE MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Before we do proceed with the bills, I wonder if the Chair may take just one moment in commending all the honourable members for having a wonderful question period today without any strife. I thank them all for their . . . the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Bill No. 8. ORDERS OF THE DAY - BILL NO. 8 -C APITAL SUPPLY MR. JORGENSON: The Member for Sturgeon Creek is around and if it's all right. MR. SPEAKER: Could we hold that one for now? MR. JORGENSON: The Member for Roblin could go and then the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR.

SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Well, Mr. Speaker, I' m prepared to put some remarks into the record book this afternoon regarding Bill 8,

an Act to Authorize the Expenditure of Moneys for Capital Purposes and for the Borrowing of Same. Mr. Speaker, it's an unfortunate thing with the tragedy that people are facing in this province today due to the high waters and the spring runoff, but, Mr. Speaker, for the last three years I've been trying to get it through the thick heads of this government about the problems of people being flooded. In 1970, 71 , I brought the flooding problems, I brought flooding problem here last year in 1973 from the peopleinCowan and, Mr.

Speaker, those people never got a penny, they never even got the thanks or the courtesy for this government to go out and take a look at it. And of course, Mr. Speaker, that's historical of the priorities of this government and in my speech this afternoon I'm going to try and once again, once again, Mr. Speaker, ask this government to take another look at their priorities. Mr. Speaker, if they'd listened to some of my speeches in the last few years and if they'd listened to some of the speeches of the Honourable Member for Swan River about some of the problems that we have with water in this province, Mr.

Speaker, we might not have all the problems that we have in this province today. And, Mr. Speaker, anybody with any common sense knows in this country, at the Continental Divide the water flows east, and if you'd listened to the snowfalls that they had in the western provinces this year, the snowfalls in Saskatchewan where I was born and raised, my mother told me weeks and weeks ago that they'd never in all her life saw the snow that they had in that province. So, Mr.

Speaker, you add that with what already we had in this province and surely we should have been prepared for one of the worst years .ever of flooding in this province. But, Mr. Speaker, this government doesn't understand those priorities. Their problems and their priorities are more of a social nature. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, they'll talk about a quality of life, they'll talk about Minicome in Dauphin and they'll spend their money there; they'll spend their money on all this socialism philosophy, but the hard nitty-gritty issues about looking after people and building floodways and cleaning up some of the rivers in this province, they don't understand, Mr. Speaker. They don't understand. I came here two years ago and told them about the problems of those people that are flooded downstream from the Shellmouth Reservoir. What did those people get? Nothing. Never got a penny. And, Mr.

Speaker, those people were flooded just as bad as the people are flooded in this province today. They never even got compassion from this government. They never got nothing. They suffered their losses and they paid for them ri ght out of their own pocket. Right out of their own pocket. Cowan.

The problems of the Duck and the Drake Rivers where the Member for Swan River and I, we took it to the Cabinet, we've had it in the House here half a dozen times, we've done everything that any two members of the Legislature could do to try and draw to the attention of this government that there's problems out there and that there are people who were flooded, and they've lost property and they lost their personal belongings. Mr. Speaker, they got nothing. Absolutely nothing. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it has to be an emergency, an emergency to get this government to change their priorities and recognize that this is a province where there's streams and waterbeds that haven't been cleaned out, that you haven't done the job that you 're supposed to do for the people of this province. You haven't been spending your money wisely. So, Mr. Speaker, I feel very uptight about standing up and supporting this bill this after noon for that reason. Well strictly, there's other priorities I'd like to speak ab out but that one

2644 April 22 , 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY -B ILL 8 (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) .. . is something that I would like again, for about the tenth time, to draw to the attention of this government. Go out and build the ditch around Carman; go out and look at the Whitemud River and spend some money out there and clean up that Whitemud. That's been a problem since the day you boys came to office. You haven't done a damned thing about it. Nothing. --(Interjection)--No they haven't. What about the problems of the Duck and the Drake Rivers ? Sure you 're going to do something. You know, Mr.

Speaker, there's hardly a day that I go home on a weekend and the Honourable Minister of Mines can go and--! put a letter in his mailbox this morning, more people flooded. And this is not due to the problems you have around the city. These are problems of people that's flooded every year, every year. Taxpayers. Honest to God people.

And this government's got no compassion nor will they do anything about it, because I've wrote I've yapped in this House, I've made speeches, and what kind of compassion do you want from the Opposition to get you to change your priorities and recognize that there are other problems besides NDP problems ? Trying to socialize and nationalize everything. Let's get down to the hard nitty-gritty issues that there's a million people living and we've got streams that's silted and are plugged up, and let's spend some money and clean up some of the drains and make these people -g ive them a chance to make a living.

But they won't , Mr. Speaker. They won't. Sure, they're going to react now when it's an emergency. Everybody's on their back. But I've been trying to speak and tell the members opposite, Mr. Speaker, for the last four or five years, change your priorities, my friends. Change your look at the problems of this province. They're not all NDP problems that you've got in your book. There's some of the problems that we spell across to you day after day that are just as honest and deserve a higher priority than yours, and the one is I'm telling you about people being flooded.

And how many years do I have to come into this House and tell you time and time again, "There's people in my constituency flooded" ? They were flooded last year, they were flooded the year before and they were flooded the year before that, and you haven't done a damned thing about it. So, Mr. Speaker, I guess we've got to have water coming out of our ears before this government is going to react or before they 're going to change their priorities. And it's a tragedy, Mr.

Speaker, with all the brains and the expertise and the knowledge that they've got over there, that they didn't know six months ago when we started asking questions -w hen was that?- early February, about the flood. Because as I said earlier in my remarks, Mr. Speaker, in this country everything east of the Continental Divide, that water's got to go east, and if you looked at the snowfalls that they've had in the west--(Interjection)--We should have known, and we tried to point out to the government, Mr. Speaker, but no. Now they're pre pared to act.

Why couldn't you have acted last year in the same response to the questions that the Member for Swan River and I raised about the people at Cowan ? They had just as much water around their ears and on their farms as these people have today. No. No, we never. Even the Cabinet appeared in Da uphin at a certain Cabinet meeting, and those people that were flooded, some of them went to Dauphin and met with some of the members of Cabinet. A MEMBER: Gave them photographs too. MR. McKENZIE: They just brushed them off. They just brushed them off like that, Mr. Speaker. Those people got no compensation.

They never got one cent from this govern ment, nor did the people downstream from the Shellmouth Reservoir. And it wasn't those people downstream from the Shellmouth Reservoir's fault at all. Sorre body pulled the gate up to protect the people downstream and they got flooded. Somebody opened the gate and let the water go . Never even had the courtesy to go and tell those people that lived downstream from the Assiniboine that "we're going to throw the gates wide open tonight, get your stuff out". No, they didn't do that. And who runs the Shellmouth Reservoir, Mr. Speaker ? The Minister of Mines, his department.

PFRA built it but they make the decisions how it's operated. So, Mr. Speaker, again, for the tenth or the twelfth time, I again appeal to this govern ment: Change your priorities. Change the things that are needed in this province rather than some of the programs that have got higher priority in your book.

Let's clean up the rivers, the little rivers, the streams in this province, and spend some money like Duff did, and let's look after the people and not have this experience coming year after year or having me come in from Roblin and tell you that people in my constituency are flooded year after year after year, and you're not going to do anything about it. Or the Whitemud, or Carman, or ... It just goes on and on. So I again this afternoon, I appeal on this bill, Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 8 ,

April 22, 1974 2645 CAPITAL SUPPLY -B ILL 8 (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) .•. and ask the government once again , let's change our priorities and let's clean up the rivers and the streams, take the silt out, and make it so that people at least can go to bed at night comfortable in the hope that we won't all be flooded. Ce rtainly this is an emergency. I have no quarrel with that. But there's a lot of work to be done in this province, Mr. Speaker , a lot of work.

And with the kind of budget that you' ve got, 800 - 900 million dollars, do you mean to tell me you can't give us a few bucks in Roblin constituency to clean up the Drake , the Duck River, or some of those problems of the water that's flowing out of the Duck Mountains every year? Every year. --(Interjection)--Well, the Minister of Agriculture knows what I'm talking about because his signature has been on some of the letters that went out to those people and said , nope, you're not going to get nothing from this government. Nothing from this government at all.

I have copies of the Minister of Agriculture's letters to some of those people. So, Mr. Speaker, I do again appeal to the government: Let's change your priorities and if you don't , you 're going to be in trouble. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Speaking on second reading of Capital Supply, I'd like to speak on the topic of the Manitoba Telephone System for a couple of minutes. In rural Manitoba we are experiencing certain problems with regards to Manitoba Tele phone System and they are mostly those of planning and probably insufficient planning.

I would like to say that the response I have received from the civil servants employed by the Manitoba Telephone System, when I do have a problem has been fairly good, and that they try to accom modate the problems in the best way they are able to, but I feel that they are severely hampered by lack of proper planning, and I'd just like to cite several cases and would like to urge the Minister in charge of Manitoba Telephone System - and I notice he's not here - that he would undertake to check with these planning people in that department so that problems · of this nature don't affect the people of the rural areas adversely like they are right now.

First of all , I think in my particular riding there's one or two exchanges that could be amalgamated with either Steinbach or Ste. Anne; you take La Broquerie which is a smaller exchange, which could quite handily be amalgamated with either of the other exchanges.

As it exists presently, there's a very small numb er of telephones really that belong--lines that belong in that exchange , and it would provide better service for the people in the communities, give them better access to a larger phoning area , and I think it's a request that these people would like to make and a change that they would like to see made. Another problem that faces us in La Verendrye is the fact that a lot of people are building their houses just outside the outskirts of the town.

They want to get away from the hustle and bustle of city lights; even though it is a smaller community they still want to feel the freedom of the outdoors , so what they're doing is buying five-acre plots of land, building their residence on there and it allows them to have a couple of riding horses and keep some other smaller animals.

Well, what this has done has created quite a problem, because we have as many as 12 to 13 people on one telephone line, which means that if one of the families doeshave a couple of teen-age daughters or a couple of teenagers on the line it's virtually im possible to get out or phone in . Again, I think this is a problem of planning and one that should be looked into by the Telephone System.

In Steinbach itself and I know in a couple of the other smaller towns , the growth has been somewhat larger than the Telephone System expected, and as a result it's in certain sections of the Town of Steinbach now it's impossible to receive a private line. There are people that make their livelihood either as salesm en, several particular cases of Highways Department personnel, these type of people do require a private line and are at present, it is impossible to receive such. Here again, I think it's a planning problem Another problem in the R. M. of Ste.

Anne , we have a small resort called Lake Riviera where in summer quite a few tourists stop. It's a trailer park. The R.M. of Ste. Anne requested that a phone booth be put up in the vicinity because there are a lot of people making calls . Again, due to lack of facilities, due to the lines being loaded, once again this request cannot be honoured . I understand that the department again is planning for this this spring, but here again we 're talking planning.

The other thing! would like to mention is that certain subdivisions in the smaller hamlets if you want to call them that, in the riding, are having difficulty in receiving service for new

2646 April 22, 1974 CAPITAL SUPPLY -B ILL 8 (MR. BANMAN cont'd) .•• subdivisions. Again, the facilities apparently that have been in stalled were not adequate to take the extra load that has been put on them by the smaller sub divisions going in there and, as a result, the people who have been moving into their homes have been without telephone for several months, and in the modern day and age that we live in it's posing quite an imposition on these people.

So again, I would like to just mention that as far as the--! think the service that we have been getting as far as phone installations and that, has been fairly good, but I would urge the Minister in charge, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, to have a good look at the planning and probably plan a little further into the future than they have been doing at the present time. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney . MR . McKELLAR: Mr.

Speaker, I' d like to say a few words on this capital bill that we have before us at the present time on second reading of the bill, and I didn't speak on it at committee because of the fact I thought it better to make a speech dealing with all particular parts of this bill, and that way I could express myself in the expressions of the constituents far better that way. Mr .

Speaker, I'd just like to say a few words on taxes which are affecting--and I realize that maybe I' m skating on pretty narrow ground, but we are dealing with money, government expenditures, and I' d like to express the opinions of most of the businessmen in my constituency and say to the government of the time that they'd better be serious about the school taxes, especially, that are put on the businessmen all over the Province of Manitoba, because I' d like to say to the government and the Minister of Financee at this time even though he isn't listening it's about time the government did something about the general , or the mill rates that affect businessess, which is 35 mills at the present time.

And along with it, the special school tax which in my constituency or in my school division is 25 mills, equals 60 mills on the businessmen which they have to pay to the Souris Valley School Division. This school division isn't alone, because the school divisions all over the Province of Manitoba are up to about a maximum of 10 mills, and I' d like to say to the Minister of Education that this is a lot more serious, it's a lot more serious than we maybe, as politicians, think sitting in this Legislature.

It's serious to the effect that with that 10 mills on their special school tax, that they're going to have to also pay about 10 more mills on municipal tax this year , which is about 20 mills . --(Interjection)--Minus what, leaving ? Minus what, leaving? I realize they're getting a rebate on their homes -o n their homes, but not on their businesses, and all I' m saying, that the businessmen of the Province of Manitoba better be looked at. I mean, I talk about school taxes because they are being affected, affected to a great deal, a lot more than what we politicians maybe think. And why am I saying this, ?

Because in most cases, in many cases, in many parts of the Province of Manitoba the businessmen are paying over 100 mills this year. That is not a tax, Mr. Speaker, that is a mortgage on their properties; that is a mortgage on their proper ties, because in ten years' time they are paying the total assessment of their properties. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that if we ever needed an urgent debate, I would say it is on school taxes on municipal taxes, and I say we need it now, because this is the time.

But I 'm not the one to tell the government and I' m not going to be able to instruct the government what they're going to do, but I would say that if there ever was an urgent problem this is the one that they should be looking at right today. The First Minister of the province stood up on Friday, I think it was Friday morning, and made an announcement to the effect he's going to give $50 .00 more on this property tax credit. Mr. Speaker, that's not the way to deal with the problem. That's not the way to deal with the problem; that's not the way. Do you realize, Mr . Speaker, what it means on a

section of land with 20, 000 assessment, 20 ,000 asse ssment, ten mills ? Just add it up. I don't have to tell you. I don't have to tell you. We 're just treating this problem with a bandaid, and I'd like to say to the government of the day, even though they 're not listening, that they'd better be serious about this, even though it's only the first session after the election; only the first session after the election; I' d like to remind them, they'd better be serious, because I sat over on that side and I know what it means, but I say I know how serious this problem is too - also.

And I say, deal with this problem before it's too late, because I tell you, once you get too deep you can 't dig yourselves out, you can't dig yourselves '.out. There 's no way you can dig yourselves out. And I tell you, as I mentioned to the Minister of Labour one day, the

April 22 , 1974 2647 CAPITAL SUPPLY -B ILL 8 (MR . MC KELLAR cont'd) .. . grave is getting deeper, but don't stall this problem. Mr . Speaker, I remember so well when we dealt with the Red RiverF loodway. I remember what they called it at that time: Roblin 's Folly. Roblin 's Folly. And, you know, a person doesn't have to have a very long memory; it's only about 13 years ago, 13 years ago or 14 years ago, this was Roblin's Folly. Everybody was standing--very few members are in here now, about four or five, that's all that are in here; maybe less than that, three or four maybe.

But I tell you, the reasons why we voted for the money for that floodway and the Portage Diversion and the Shellmouth Dam, were because we were told that once every 20 or 25 years we've going to have a flood, maybe not in the magnitude of 1950 , but we're going to have a flood. And I tell you, we got it right in for us this year, and I don't have to tell any member of this Legislature -t he Member for Roblin mentioned -h ere - and it's one that's got to come through my constituency and it's going to come through too.

And I tell you, the people of Glenboro know it right now, north of Glenboro there, where the highway is blocked and the farmers 1 barley is being affected. But I tell you, Mr. Speaker, when we 're spending the capital expenditures of money in this Legislature, as we're going to do ri ght now to the extent of $699 million, we'd better see that they're spent wisely, because I tell you, that's about 20 times greater than what we spent in 1958 or '59 when we were building the floodway. And the floodway only cost 65 million, 65 million, but it was called Roblin's Folly.

Well, the members of the Legislature made a statement at that time to build a project aro und Winnipeg which is greater than the Panama Canal, and I don't suppose many people in this Legislature really know that. A project greater than the Panama Canal, and I tell you, that was a big decision, because you've got to remember that, Mr. Speaker, the total budget in those days was less than 100 million, that's the current budget. And we were spending 65 million on one project alone, one project "llone, a project which even engineers at that time didn't know they could design .

But they did design it and the contractors of Manitoba at that time made it possible so the people of the City of Winnipeg at the present time could live--at least they could go to bed at night and rest, knowing full well that their property wouldn't be flooded the next morning.

I'd like to speak a word a little about the Portage Diversion, because it was a controver sial project, a project at that time which ended up I think in a judicial inquiry, one of the many inquiries that the Co nservative Government in those days had, because that's the best way, the best way in the minds of the public to clear a government. And if there's anything wrong, bring it out on the table . That's the best way, the best way that I know of.

And it was done by the government of that day, and I tell you, that project today is serving the public of Manitoba well, because what has happened today, the farmers between Portage and Winnipeg, through the constituency of my seat-mate here, the Member for Lakeside, can at least go to bed at night and know they won't be flooded the next morning. And I tell you, that's what the government of the day did. That' s what the government of the day did. MR. ENNS: All right, Earl, my wife still doesn't get any sleep . MR .

McKELLAR: Well, I tell you, another project which at that time was thought about and which did not go forth was the Holland Dam and that project was thought about and discussed and debated, and it's been talked about here many times . But the project that did go ahead was the Shellmouth Dam, and the Member for Roblin constituency,he mentioned today that they're holding back water there trying to permit the waters in the southern part of the pro vince to run off first before the water in the Assiniboine River starts coming down from the north.

This project has served thepublic well and it will serve the public well both in recreation and water control; and this is the reason why that project had preference over the Holland Dam, because the Holland Dam wasn't going to be much benefit as far as recreation; this was strictly for flood control. Now, Mr.

Speaker, these projects are projects that we voted on in the past, I realize that, not projects which are in this bill at the present time 0 But I tell you, Mr 0 Speaker, there were big decisions, big decisions which helped hthe people of Manitoba, which were cr iticized, crHicized, but governments have to take leadership, take leadership. They never want to look back to it once they take leadership 0 And I tell you, the government of that day did take leadership, and they spent money, people's money, and this money is serving the people 0 The benefits, I tell· you, will be appreciated in the years to come.

2648 April 22, 197 4 CAPITA L SUPPLY - BILL 8 (MR. McKELLAR cont'

d) Mr. Speaker, I want to say a little about agricultural credit because that's the one sub je ct in this whole bill that's bothering me - that's bothering me. We're not in the business of lending money, but how much money are we borrowing this year ? $14 million, I think, $14, 65 0, 000. That's the thing that bothers me, Mr. Speaker. That's the thing that's bothering me. An d why is it bothering me ? Because the Minister of Agric ulture is starting to buy land to set up his own little empire, set up his own little empire under the chairman of the Agricul tural Credit Co rporation.

And if that doesn' t scare the living daylights out of you I don't know what does. That really scares you. Mr. Sp eaker, the former General Manager of the Agr icultural Credit Co rporation is now working for the Pool El evators; he's now working for the Pool Elevator s. After 15 years, after 15 years, and we're the ones that hired him, the Conservative Government, 1959. And I tell you, if that doesn't scare you when a man like that leaves after 15 years of public service and he 's being replaced by a man from Swan River, I tell you, that has to scare somebody. That has to scare somebody.

An d I tell you, the people of the Province of Manitoba are scared. A MEMBER: We've got to get rid of him. MR . McKELLAR: But I'm scared, and I hope the government is scared, and I know they aren't. But the public will scare them in the next election. Mr. Speaker, $14, 560, 000 for what? For what ? I don't know what. The people of the Province of Manitoba want to buy land, but they're in competition with the people of Manitoba and that's not right.

If they were lending money to the young farmers in Manitoba at a low interest rate, trying to get the young farmers established, then I'd say let us vote 30 million for the young farmers. But no. No, that's not what's happening. The Minister of Agric ulture is in the business of purchasing land. He says he's going to sell it back after so many years, but let's not be kidded, Mr. Speaker, let's not be kidded. The Minister of Agric ulture, and I know it so well, once the Crown gets their hands on that land and gets the title in their name, nobody'll ever buy that land back. Nobody'll ever buy that land back.

A MEMBE R : It's a con game, Earl. MR . McKELLAR: It's a con game, you'd better believe it. The Member for Swan River ... MR . SPE AK ER : The Honourable Minister state his matter of privilege. MR . USKIW: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney should know the terms of the lease arrangement spell out the right to exercise an option to purchase. MR . McKELL AR: Mr. Speaker, I'm not the spe aker of this House but that wasn't a point of privilege. It wasn't a point of pr ivilege. No sir. It might have been a po int of order but it wasn't a point of privilege. Mr.

Speaker, I know full well, and I'm just debating here, but I'm telling you, Mr. Speaker, as long as that Minister of Ag riculture is ther e this land will never be sold back to the farmers. I know it, and I tell you this is what concerns me; 14, 650, 000 for what? For the government to have the right to own the farmland. This country was built on free enterprise. It was built on individual ownership and I tell you that's the way it should be for all time to come.

I know the Minister of Agriculture wants to tell every farmer in the Province of Manitoba and if he can't tell them through a ballot, he'll tell them some way. But that's not the way Manitoba should be. Mr. Speaker, it's only through individual owner ship and decisions - individual decisions, by each individual farmer will this country prosper and I tell you if we ever get away from that type of thinking we're in trouble. You know what happened to Russ ia, Mr . Spe aker, where the State owns the land ? I'll tell you what happened.

They're buying grain from us, they're buying grain from us, and I tell you, we'll be buying grain from the Am ericans and we'll be buying grain from somebody else as soon as the government . . . I know the Minister says that won't happen but I tell you, I'm afraid it will happen. I know it will happen. It isn't right. It isn't right. The govern ment should be selling land, any Crown land they have, sell it, give the farmer the right to own it. Give the farmer the right to own it. Al so if you've got any money around here, help the young farmer. If there ever was a need, Mr.

Speaker, ... the young farmer can't afford to pay 10, 11 percent interest. They can't afford it, with the high cost of financing these days. They can't afford it. Give them a break like we did in 1959. We gave them a break, four per cent. Give them a break, start them up that way. But no, you say you'll lease land to them. That's not the way to do it. That's not the way to do it. Give them a break on interest rates.

Ap ril 22, 1974 2649 CA PITAL SUPP LY - BILL 8 (MR . McKELLAR cont'd ) ..... You can do it. You borrow money from the Canada Pens ion Fund - the Member for Swan River found out, which I knew all the time, but you borrow at 7 percent, give the farmers a break, same interest rate--( Interjection)--Y ou do, 7-1/2, sure you do, you borrowed at less than that. You borrowed at five two years ago. You borrowed for five two years ago. Yeah you borrow for 7-1 /2 now. Mr. Speaker, that's the thing to do, the way to help young farmers, not tell them you'll lease them the land. That's not the way. Mr.

Speaker, that's all I want to have to say at that. I've got a few other things here I want to ... I think I should say a few things on CF I because I even - though may be I'd better be careful because I don 't know if it's in the courts yet or not.

But I want to just outline here because I was one of those men that had to stand up and be counted at that, another one of those projects, project s which was known to everyone that there was bush up in the north, that there was men out of work, that for all time to come that this would happen unless some thing was done and we, the government of that day had to make a decision. Are we going to let The Pas and the north just go along the same old merry way as they were, and we decided we're going to do something.

I always said that everything a govern ment does isn't right and one of the things that we did maybe was we didn't go over to Switzerland everyone of us, 57 of us, and find out who was running the show. We never did that, but I must say that after looking at everything that even although the government put it into receivership, that this plant - and it was always known by everybody it wouldn't make money for ten years, it wouldn't make money for ten years - but this plant would be one of the best operated pulp mills and paper mills in the province of Manitoba and sawmill and it's proving out, it' s proving out.

I tell you it's making more money than Saunders and it's making more money than a lot of the other projects that you've got involved. But one thing we always said, that if it used some of that wood that was dying year after year, and if it used some of the manpower that wasn't being used, year after year, that it accomplished a fact, and it took people off welfare. This is what we at that time dec ided to do. That we as a government were going to do som ething about that.

Now mind you, it mightn't be right and I agree that I'd liked to have known that Kasser and Reiser and a few more of those guys over there, and I never ever met them yet. But that's beyond the point, that's beyond the point, that's beyond the point. The plant is there, the pulp mill is there, the sawmill is there, the paper mill is there and it's working, and 800 jobs. And there's a hell of a lot of trees that are being used that were rotting before, and this is the main thing. An d nobody can deny that it won't be a great benefit to the Province of Man itoba.

Whenever one is . . . left this life . . . twenty years from now. Because I tell you we're all going to be gone twenty years from now, we're all going to be gone. I'm sure of that. Mr. Speaker, one subject in clos ing I want to talk on is Hydro, because I must say that Hydro has been one of the most interesting topics in the last sixteen years I've been here. In the month of June it will be sixteen years since the Member for Ro ssmere and myself came in here, sixteen years in June. We've talked about Hydro ever since we came in here. At that time Kettle Rapids was just opening up on the Nelson River.

The Nelson River at that time was one of the favourite topics but nobody wanted to venture north not even to survey. Grand Rapids at that time was on the drafting board. In 1962 Grand Rapids was opened up but not ... that year another judic ial inquiry which I mention, another one of those. We had inquiries over everything, even over flagmen south of Winnipeg. We had them ... We're not scared, we weren't scared; this bunch over here the Attorney-General, they're scared to have an inquiry.

I tell you when you've got something to hide you hide it, you don't have an inquiry, but if you've got something you're not scared to face the music, you hope they have an inquiry. Just like that. I'm afraid, Mr. Speaker, there's something to hide so that's why they don't have an inquiry. But getting back to Grand Rapids, we opened up Grand Rapids . Then after Grand Rapids 62, Nelson River was designed and Kettle Rapids being the first one. I tell you, Mr.

Speaker, money at that time, great sums of money, not compared with $699 million, but sums of money which nobody ever dreamt about talking in about a million dollars, millions of millions of dollar s to develop the Nelson River, to manufacture enough hydro power for the Province of Manitoba for the next, till the year 2000. An d I tell you the foresight at that time was tremen dous and I must give credit to Mr. Don Stephens the Chairman of the Board of Manitoba Hydro at that time, because I tell you through his foresight, I tell you, we could be thankful as

265 0 April 22, 1974 CAP ITA L SUPPLY - BILL 8 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd ) ..... Manitobans for many years to come. I remember the trip that we made to Kettle Rapids that day to look over Kettle Rapids in the initial construction and I think about two weeks after we came back I think Mr. Don Stephens passed away through a heart attack. I tell you the people of Manitoba can be grateful to him and Mr. Bill Fallis for having the foresight and the imagination to develop hydro power for the Pro vince of Manitoba. I tell you, Mr.

Speaker, this gover nment through their stalling of development of South Indian Lake divers ion I think has cost the people of the Province of Manitoba maybe tens of millions of dollars in the future. An d it's a sorry day, Mr.

Speaker, when the pr ice of fuel is going up at the rapid rate it is the next three weeks that we haven't got hydro power that we can sell to the people of the Province of Manitoba at a rate which is equal to what it has been in the past, but we're going to have to pay twenty percent more and I understand after six years it will be a hundred percent more and we are going to be right up and up with the other provinces in Canada. An d we had a glorious opportunity, Mr .

Speaker, we had a glorious opportunity, if we'd gone along with the development of the hydro power in the Province of Manitoba in 1969 and not worried about whether we were going to destroy the odd tree, or whether we were going to flood the Indians up to their bellies or up to their chests. The Province of Manitoba cannot - you cannot worry about something when you need development of hydro power. It's that impor tant, it's that important. I tell you, what difference does it make to the Honourable Member for Churchill whether you flood them to their bellies or whether you flood them to their chests ?

They're flooded, they're flooded. I tell you that's the argument that we had with the govern ment of the day and they come back and they say . . . that I say to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, he said he was never against South Indian diversion. I tell you, I don't have to be told what was said, I know what was said. I know what was said, Mr . Speaker, and I tell you it wasn't told that way. It wasn't told that way. We were the villains of the day, we were the villains, we were going to flood them right up to here. I tell you, I don't care, I don't care ... I'll bet you any money, Mr.

Speaker, that before that government gets finished they'll flood them right up to the top of their heads. I'll tell you that. That will happen, Mr. Speaker, that will happen. I don't have to tell them. Time is always the best experience and I tell you sometimes words come home to haunt government and I tell you watch out, Mr. Speaker, if they don't flood them up to the top of their heads. Why are they building millions of dollars of buildings to get them out on high land, why are they building all those new buildings out in South Indian Lake? Because they are going to flood that area.

They know they have to flood it, that's the best insurance they could have had for the operation of Kettle Rapids and Spruce--(I nterjec tion)--y eah that's the best insurance they could have had. Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't have to stand up here and tell you what's wrong with the government of Manitoba. I don't have to tell you. Al l you have to do is look around the pro vince you'll find lots of examples, lots of examples. But I'll just say this, Mr. Speaker. We're voting for this capital supply bill, we're voting for it, we're voting for this $699 million, a lot of money, Mr.

Speaker, a lot of taxpayers' money, and I tell you nobody needs to tell me there's no debt in the Province of Manitoba, nobody needs to tell me that there's less debts than there was a year ago or five year s ago. Al l you need is to look at the figures. Pay $699 million - you mean that's no debt. I don't have to be told. But I never did go around the province saying there was no debt because I tell you the figures will prove, the figures don't lie. Mr.

Spe aker, I'll just say this, that we have a lot to do in the Province of Manitoba and the priorities have to be in many cases changed, and I tell you the taxpayer under the ... has to be looked at. The commercial tax rate, the businessmen of the Province of Manitoba have to have some attent ion. The young farmers of the Provinc e of Manitoba have to have some attention and there's other people that have to have attention, and I tell you, I tell you until you look after those people you're going to have a lot, a lot of problems left on your hands.

And I would say look at your priorities, look at your priorities, look at your priorities. You'll never satisfy the world by trying to bring all the people down to the bottom level. I tell you what you want to do is try to bring the people at the bottom up a little bit, try to give them a lift, the priorities are such that you're trying to drag everybody down. Well lt ell you itwon't work. It won't work It ell you, change your priorities and then maybe get on to the job. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. MR . J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): May I have this matter stand, Mr. Speaker ?

MR. SPE AK ER : Verywell. Bill No. 27. The HonourableMe mber for Lakeside. (Stand) Bill No. 36.

April 22, 1974 2651 BILL NO. 36 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . J. PAUL MAR ION (St. Bonifac e): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think there are, Mr. Speaker a number of things that have to be agreed upon with the bill that we have befor e us and there are some omiss ions, and I would like to talk about both in turn. I think that the measures . that are proposed and which I feel our party can readily endorse without any reservation are basically the five fundamental recomme ndations that are brought in by the Minister in his bill.

I think that there is no doubt about the fact that--will you shush? There is no doubt about the fact-- I'm having a problem there, Mr . Speaker, with the ... MR . SPEA KER: I agree, I have the same particular probl em . Some people just don't know what it's all about. MR . MARION: I'm glad we have the same problem, Sir.

As I was saying, it has been for ever and a day the practice whereby counc illors in municipal government have been given the opportunity and pr ivilege of setting their own salaries and now we are righting this prob lem whereby trustees could not set the salary levels and treating them on the same level as we do councillors. I'm sure that this group of very devoted citizens that are trustees will be able to set the salary schedules with a great deal of reasonableness I would say.

I think that it is true that electio ns, particularly with those eleven divisions that are in the urban area should coincide with elections and should be on a uniform basis with the elections of councillor s. I think that there is no problem for anyone in this House to support the Min ister in that recom mendation. I notice that in No. 8 there could be a problem, but after discuss ing this with the Minister he's advised me that he himself has seen some inequities in this area and will be br inging in an amendment to set the records right.

And I'm referring to the area where you have a school division both in an urban setting as well as a rural setting. I think that the trans itional use of languages other than French or English is a very human step and it mer its a great deal of sup port, because it is only a move that would right an inequity and show that we have respect for the human being in falling into the stream of education in the Pr ovince of Manitoba, I think that the new method of selecti ng an arbitration chairman is one that will go a long way for making this modus operandi a much more rational one.

I think that the previous method was rather lim iting and now we've withdrawn the lim itations and you have the two nominees agreeing upon just any member that they feel justified in supporting as the chairman of the arbitration comm ittee. I think that this is a move in the right direction. I think that the religious education amendment is one that will bring -the law in accord with present practice. There is no doubt that the minist er or the rabbi or the priest were certainly incapable of performing the duties that were asked of them.

If you had in a given school divis ion perhaps upwards of 200 classrooms and you wanted the rabbi or the priest or the minister to teach to all of these classrooms it would just become a physical impossibility. Now we are delegating this authority and giving the appointee the same privilege, and certainly as I said this brings the law into accord with the pres ent practice. Those basically -- (I'm being heckled by my own here)--Those basically, Mr. Speaker, are the five fundamental amendments that are being brought forward by the Minis ter which I'm sure everyone in this House can support.

However, I think that through omiss ion there are a number of points that perhaps the Minister could take note of because I think that there are a number of basic problems in education at pres ent, none of which are greater I would suggest, than the cost of education and the tremendous load that this is putting on the realty owner . I think that ther e's an ever increasing portion of the education bill that is being borne by the realty tax, both in Winnipeg and in the rural areas.

Again, if I use Winnipeg as my cr iteria, it is because I am much more familiar with it but I know that the same situation exists in other parts of Manitoba, and per haps to a greater extent because of the lack of assessment. Now in Winnipeg we have the foundation levy, the equalization levy and the special levy. These three combined are presently carr ying 40 percent of the financial burden caused by our systems of education. Mr. Speaker, I think that without a doubt this load is much too heavy a load to be borne by the realty tax.

There is no doubt that the 60 percent now being paid for by provincial grant has to be looked at again. I think that if we went back not too many years we would find that the case after the disparity had grown to a point where it could no longer be lived with, and I'm thinking in terms of pre 1967 , the government of the day then made some

2652 April 22, 1974 BILL 36 (MR . MARION cont'd) ..... moves to correct the terrible onus that was being placed on the homeowner. We have carried on with this form of financing our educational system without any revis ions and we now find ourselves in the same kind of situation we were pre 1967.

An d I think that there is no doubt that if someth ing isn't done, and I'm not thinking now in terms of the hit and miss approach or the highly political approach of rebate, be it realty rebate or be It cost of living rebate or be it what was for a brief period the education rebate, I think that this is not the approach to take. I think that we need a more meaningful and a more realistic approach, not the band aid approach. And that is revis ing the entire method of financing education in this province.

The special levy in Winnipeg is going to increase in the coming year, 197 4, anywhere from 20 to 40 percent depending upon which of the eleven divisions one lives in. Now I think, I humbly suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that is a tremendous kind of incr ease and one that cannot be tolerated. Can you imagine going past 197 4 without any revision in the system ? By 1975 if we were to go along with another 20 to 40 percent increase we would have nothing but a bunch of homes on the market for sale because people couldn't afford to live in their homes. Certainly this is not the kind of thing that we want in this province.

I think that in the rural areas the story is even worse with respect to the spec ial levy because we need not dwell on to the point I mentioned a while ago whereby you .have an assess ment value that is much much smaller than you have in the urban areas and that means that the mill rate in those areas is just astronomical. The gentleman from Souris-Killarney mentioned this fact just a moment ago where it has become a real onus on the residents of the provinc e. I think that grants also, Mr. Speaker, are not reflective of the actual cost and this is why the disparity has now gone to a 40-60 spread.

We have teachers' salaries that have increased since 1968, after a year of the introduction of the foundation grants. We have salaries of teachers that have increased by a minimum of 60 percent, and I co mputed that by using a straight eight percent increase per year from 68 to 73, and I'm not including this year. That's a 60 percent increase in the basic salary of teachers. The grant system has not changed.

So you can apprec iate that in a school division I would say upwards of 70 perc ent is tied in with salaries, so this is the basic reason why you've presently got the special levy carrying 40 per cent of the load. The disparity is bound to get greater, if you compound 197 4 costs with the figures that I have just given you. I think that in the City of Winnipeg we also have the - following the amalgamation we had a special equalization levy which was meant in essence to equalize the disparities that existed at that time.

Because we had some divisions that were fortunate and had a great deal of indus trial base in them where you had others that were basically residential areas. Well let me quote Mr. Evans who is the Commiss ioner of Finance for the City of Winnipeg, let me quote what he says on the realization of this special equalization grant. He says, and I quote: "The only real development that has occurred is a reshuffling as to who pays more and who pays less with the reasons for that distinction remaining unclearly defined. " In other words, the inequities which existed still exist to this day.

They might have been realigned perhaps - and this is a fact - the school division of St. James-A ssiniboia which enjoyed probably the lowest mill rate in the Ci ty of Winnipeg is probably now the highest while other divisions are enjoying the lowest factor, but for no real known reason and none that can be substantiated certainly by the Department of Education or the City of Winnipeg for that matter. I think that this is a point that should be given a great deal of study.

The special equalization grant that was brought into being when Unicity came into force is one that has not done the job that it should be doing and perhaps we should examine what can be done to make it function the way it was intended to function from the outset. An d that is to equalize the rates throughout the City of Winnipeg. I think that there are other things that I would have looked for in Bill 36 that I didn't find and those are very dear to my heart, and I talk of safety factors . I talk of safety factors in the area of school buildings .

We have had a number of cases where parents have pulled their children out of sc hools because they felt that the buildings themselves were old or unsafe or both. Now it would be a simple matter for the Honourable Minister to bring in a recomme nda tion whereby a school system inspection would be set up by the Department. The criteria would be set down in no uncertain terms on what would be expected in the way of safety inspection in all of the schools in this provinc e. These criteria would be set down by the province but enforced by the school division.

An d I think it's evident that the reason I would like to see them enforced by the school divis ion is that in many cases some of them have maintenance

A pril 22, 1974 265 3 BILL 36 (MR . MARION cont'd) ..... departments, some of them have architectural departments, the more sophisticated, School Divis ion No. 1; others have consultant architectural firms working with them on all of their projects, and these along with other engineering groups could be used by the divisions at very nominal costs to make sure that whatever criteria on school safety inspection were set down by the Department of Education would be adhered to. I think that this would enhance greatly the safety factor.

We've known over the past few weeks that there were problems in Roblin and there were certainly serio us problems in the two older schools in the No. 1 School Divis ion in Winnipeg. An d I think that we would lay to rest any kind of anxiety that parents mi ght have with respect to the safety factor of schools. I think that another po int that I hold dear to heart that should have been given some con sideration by the Honourable Mi nister is the safety factor of buses. Now, Mr. Speaker, I came across an

article on the 12 of March which dealt, and I quote, - it dealt with the many faults found in school buses. This is a survey that was conducted by the Ci tizen in Ottawa, and along with bus manufacturers ascertained a tremendous number of deficiencies in school buses. I would like to go over some of the discrepancies that were found because I think that it's worth dwelling on.

These after all are vehicles that transport children to our schools, and believe me in some of our rural divi si ons we have school bus systems that are almost well they're really mind-boggling in the fact that there are 60 or upwards buses in some divisio ns. Let's look at some of the findings that were made in this survey. "The inspections revealed that nine of twelve buses had poor or no emergency brakes and the defrosters were incapable of keeping the"--(I nterjection) --No, this was in Ottawa. -- "were incapable of keeping the driver 's front and s.ide windows clear. Three buses had leaky exhaust systems.

" Now remember there were only 12 buses taken at random in this test. "Three buses had leaky exhaust systems allowing fumes to seep into the passenger compartment. One bus had no emergency brake. A 14-pound stone sitting on the floor bes ide the driver's se at was used as a parking brake on the hills. " Now isn't that just pretty. We have no emergency brake and we use a great big stone to make sure that the bus didn't take off down a hill. "One bus had an emergency rear door with hinges so rusty it was im poss ible to open it from the out� side. " That makes for real great emergency exit I'm sure.

"Bus company offic ials admitted that the buses were prone to failing clutches. " Now this is the manufacturer himself admitting that there are some inherent weaknesses in the vehicle that he constructs. "Leaking windows in the steel body joi nts, accelerator governors were seizing, loss of brake fluid at the master cylinder was occurring on a number of occasions. Loss of power brakes and clutch control linkage breaking were a frequent happening. " The Ci tizen says, "That bodies of all buses surveyed are simply boxes bolted to truck frames in which body panels are intended to act as frame support. " Mr.

Speaker, I th ink that that is not only the case in the Province of Ontario but every time that there is an unfortunate accident with a school bus everyone decries the method with which it is being built and the tremendous deficiencies that are unearthed every time there is an accident.

It would seem to me that our department should get together to set up with other provinces and with the school div isions that operate these very large transportation systems, and with the manufacturers directly, some sort of an investigation whereby we are able to solve the very serious deficiencies that have been found time and again by our Department of Education as well as the other Departments of Education. I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, this would result in a much safer vehicle for the school children of Mani toba to be using. I think, Mr .

Speaker, that when you talk of the vehicle itself you can't help but pause for a moment and talk about the people who are operating those vehicles. This has also been a bone of contention with me for a long long time, and I'm sorry to see that in the present set of amendments we don't have any criteria laid down whereby from the driver point of view we could also eliminate some of the deficie ncies that exist there.

There's no doubt that most of our bus drivers are temporary employees, employees who use this as an extra source of revenue and not as the main source of revenue, but notwithstanding this--and I know that the practicalities for hiring bus drivers per se are non-existent, it would become far too costly- but notwithstanding this I say, Mr. Speaker, surely there are some basic requirements that could be maintained. I'm thinking of enforcing and making it obLigatory that all bus drivers for school transportation systems take the defensive driv ing school. I'm thinking also of an

265 4 Apr il 22, 197 4 BILL 36 (MR . MARION cont'd) ..... obligatory health examination once a year at the beginning of the year or during the year when new personnel are hired. I think that it would certainly stand us in good stead if basically those two steps were taken. I recall reading about two mishaps with buses, one in the Provi nce of Al berta that sticks very vivi dly in my mind where it was felt that because of th€ age factor and the health factor the man responsible for the accident was the bus driver.

He panicked in a situation that did not call for panick ing had he had proper training and had he also had good health. Mr. Speaker, the man in this situation has to be healthy, has to be able to react properly to avoid and to be able to handle situations that are out of the ordinary. While I'm on transportation I think it fair to add as well that I would have appreciated seeing in the amendment an additional amount set aside for urban divisions with respect to transportation.

In today's age where students are transferred in a given division from long distances to attend a specific school that will answer the kinds of options that that student has taken, it would seem to me that it is only fair that the onus not be on the division itself but that the department would realize that, because of the demands being made today on our systems of education, it is responsible for a greater part of that cost. I think that in the St. Bon iface School Divis ion, Mr.

Speaker, a great portion is bei ng borne by the divi sion that realis tically and rightfully should be a granted cost by the Department of Education. I would trust that the Mini ster will look at this situation and, where possible, bring it into line with the other policies that deal with transportation of students throughout the province. I think that a great deal was made of the equalization grants that were brought into being by the Minister not so long ago.

I believe the announcements were made in the month of - at the beginn ing of March or the end of Ap ril, and I think that there's no doubt that these are a step in the right direction. However, Mr. Speaker, if we look at the results or the impact that this new co st-sharing program had in the province throughout, I am afraid that it leaves a great deal to be desired. In essence, it amounted to $2 .million and the education budget is many times greater than that $2 million. As a matter of fact, it's close to 150 times that si ze. So you can imagine th€ impact it has had.

I would like to mention that in the No. 1 School Division of Winnipeg, it had one quarter of a mill effect; in the School Division of St. James-A ssiniboia, or St. James rather, it had the effect of half a mill ; in the Seven Oaks Division it had a one mill impact; in the poorest division of them all, it had a 5. 5 mill impact. Now this was a rural division and of course there's no doubt about the fact that with the special levy increases this year, that 5. 5 mills is certainly not going to have a great deal of bearing on the results, the final results of the money that will have to be doled out by the ratepayer.

I think, Mr. Speaker, that those are some of the points that I felt the Mi nister could have developed as amendments to what is, in my opinion, a situation that really needs some righting. I trust that he will give these recommendations some reasonable thought and might see fit to bring in, along with some of the amendments he's already cons idering, some of these thoughts with him. I would think that, aside from that, Mr. Speaker, we will keep our options open and when the bill is in Law Am endments we will try to add further constructive criticism at that time. MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education will be closing debate. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minist er of Health and Social Development, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 38 MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 38. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise on this occasion to address tbe faceless members oppos ite on the subject matter of Bill 38 ,

an Act to amend The Ci ty of Winnipeg Ac t, and really, Sir, I don't do so as an urban expert, although I do remind honourable members opposite I've spent just about now about half of my life in the Ci ty of Winnipeg, so I do have, you know, an ongoing interes t in that great metropolitan area. But, Sir, I want to outline to you at the beginning that it's my intention to speak about the Nelson hydro development, the D. L. Campbell adminis tration, the Liberal administration, the flood protection program in this province, and the City of Winnipeg Ac t - and, Sir, do it all in

April 22, 197 4 265 5 BILL 38 (MR. ENNS cont'd) ..... keeping with the rules of the House, and by giving you fair warning, Sir , in this way I hope that you will see to it that I live up to the rules of the House and not digress from the full meaning and understanding of those rules of the House.-- (Interjection)- - I think I will, Mr. Speaker, because what attracted me to this particular bill, and indeed the other bill that's before us and the numerous other bi lls that we will be seeing relative to changing and tinker ing with the Ci ty of Winnipeg Ac t, was precise ly the point that I want to make.

An d they are two, and I'll come back to this in a moment. Sir, here we are, looking at a bill with 107 amendments; that's this bill, Bill 38. Then I understand there's another bill, Bill No. 2 on the Order Paper, which has a further number of amendments to

an act that is but two years old. This surely, Sir, has to point out, you know, the kind of haste, the recklessness, the casualness and carelessness wi th which this govern ment introduced a major change that affected half of the population of the Province of Manitoba, namely, the half a million residents that live in the Ci ty of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, this bi ll is just about as bad as the Farm Machinery Bill that the Minister of Agr iculture introduced in haste and in a hurry not so long ago, and I think it had some 43 origi nal clauses and he brought in 54 amendments.

Well, Sir, I predict that we are going to see bi lls like this virtually in every session from here to only the good Lord knows when. It points out, Si r, that what was born under Bill 36 was--well, now, I don't want to be unparlia mentary, but it certainly was some kind of a deformed, ill-conc eived baby that was to somehow bring about a new era, a new age to the urban dwellers here in the City of Winnipeg. Mr.

Speaker , I think it's worthwhile to remind the honourable members opposite, particu larly the members who I know are concerned about the problems that the Ci ty of Winnipeg faces, what the Opposi tion of the day told them at the time Bill 36 was introduced. We told them, Sir, that it would mean higher taxes, and that prediction is now comi ng in.

We told them, Sir , that it would mean loss of local control, and Sir, contained in this bill we have all ki nds of clauses that deal with how the Cabinet is going to decide how many councillors there will be, what the boundaries of the local wards will be, and a number of other matters. If it's not in this bill, it's in the other bill, Bill 46, and I get the two confused. But I'm speaking about generally the amendments to Bill 36. We told them also about the decline, the general decline in public services that would result. Mo st of these things have come to pass.

We reminded them of the statements made by a certain Mr. Bole at that time, who said that right off the bat Bill 36 would cost the Ci ty of Winnipeg taxpayers an additional 18 to 20 million dollars. Mr. Speaker, he was a conservative, if he was using those figures, and I don't think he was a Co nservative. I think he was a small "c" conservative. But, Mr. Speaker, how true his figures were.

We have found that this government , in their haste in introducing Bill 36, have so tremendously underestimated the problems facing government in this city that one really has to question whether they are concerned with the problems that they themselves have created. Mr. Speaker, it needn't have been this way. It needn't have been this way. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me indicate to you how other administrations on other subjects have handled, you know, major issues in this way. An d this covers that little remark that I made in my opening statement, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to - and it's not a very current debate but that we just debated earlier on in this session, it has to do with our present flood. In the 1950s, another administration headed by the then Liberal Premier, D.L. Cam[Jbell, after having suffered through the disastrous 1950 flood, commissio ned a massive study to be undertaken to seek out ways and means to avoid that from ever happening again. An d, Mr. Speaker, I feel safe to say that I congratulate that adminis tration for having done that.

I also feel safe to say that with the eventual delivery of that report, that that administration would have done nothing with it. The fiscal policies of that particular administ ration are still well remembered by most Manitobans, that the likelihood of any action bei ng taken by the Liberal Government of that day re the flood control measures proposed in this massive study would have never been undertaken. But, Mr . Speaker, another administration came into being; the Progressive Conse rvative Party took office. We looked at this report, commiss ioned by another admini stration.

It wasn't our report, it was commiss ioned by the Liberal adminis tration. A Conse rvative ad minist ration looked at it, found it sound, found it correct, and implemented it and spent the neces sary funds doing it. An d, Mr. Speaker, the end result is, the end result is that we have a major works undertaken in this province which the present New Democratic Party Premier

265 6 Apri l 22, 197 4 BILL 38 (MR. ENNS cont'd) ..... can stand up in this House and congratulate. The Co nservative official opposition takes full credits and have the satisfaction of having known that they did the right thing, and indeed the Liberal colleagues, the members of the Liberal Party in this House, can at least recognize that they instituted and saw the need for that kind of a report to being commiss ioned. Now, Mr.

Speaker, all I'm trying to say is that when you're dealing with a major prob lem, you know, is there really room for the kind of partisan politics that this government particularly plays with such massive expense to the taxpayers of Manitoba ? Let me follow this through now, Mr. Speaker, the same analogy with other major impor tant areas that are very current and very uppermost in most of our minds . It was in the- thank you, Mr. -- (Interjection)--How was that ? A ME MBER: An alogy. MR . ENNS: An alogy is the word that I was thinking about.

In the Sixties, in the Sixties the Progressive Co nservative administration recognized the then yet unthought of energy crisis that was coming, recognized the potential that we had in this province, and commiss ioned a se ries of in-depth studies as to how to best utilize our most capable, most beneficial resources, namely our Hydro resources on the Ne lson Ri ver. Mr .

Speaker, I think it's been said in this House, I think the First Minist er tabled in this House some of those re ports; 10, 12, 50 million dollars' worth of reports undertaken by a Co nserva tive administration on a major issue of importance to the Province of Manitoba. So what did this government do ? This government shelved them because they weren't their reports; they didn't tie in with the politics that they were particularly pursuing at that date. They brought in an NDP supporter to write them in a hurry, in two weeks--i n two weeks--a little document on which they based their Hydro policy on. Mr.

Speaker, I'm not debating in this sense and I wonder why I'm still in order, I'm not debating the Hydro issue at all. All I can say, I can guarantee you, Mr. Speaker, never, never as long as there's a Cons ervative Party in the Province of Man itoba, will the day arise where a Co nservative leader, or leader in opposition, or Premier, will stand up and congratulate this government or the New Democratic Party government on their Hydro policy. Mr. Speaker, down to Bill 36 and Uni city.

We recognized in the mid-Six ties, towards the latter part of the Sixties, that major changes had to be forthcoming in the City of Winnipeg. We commiss ioned a group of men and women to look into it and study the matter, the Boundaries Co mmiss ion. Now, Mr . Speaker, I know honourable members opposite didn't like the Boundaries Co mmis si on, they didn 't like the political make-up of that group, but Mr.

Speaker, that does not deny the fact that the Boundaries Co mmission did a massive study, presented a well-documented case, not telling a government or any government precisely what to do, but certainly at least outlining options to a government, underlinin

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-97
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 97.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	92a0cdde2770eac9d585cebf6891a32bc0e9a68b

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