VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PFRIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE 23, 1981 NO. 65

June 23, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 2694 SD - 1 Order, please! I am sure hon, members would like to join me today in welcoming to the Speaker's Gallery a former Speaker of the Newfoundland Legislature, Mr. George Clark .e, and with him a former Speaker of the Manitoba Legislature, Mr. Jim Bilton. Welcome. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: a statement. Y.R. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Premie .r. Mr. Speaker, I should like to make Do you have a copy to send over here?

Yes, we will have a copy momentarily, For the past several years this government h.as been insisting on the need for the federa,l government to enforce the constitutional power which it has to ensure that this Province can transport its hydro electric power to markets outside Quebec. As hon. members are well aware, the Provine~ of Quebec has always insisted that we sell all th .e power to Hydro Quebec at the Newfoundland/Quebec border. Simply put, our position has always been that hydro electricity is n0 different than oil or gas, wheat or minerals or any other goods and that the same rules sh.ould apply to all.

If Alberta can ship its oil through oth .er provinces without hindrance, if Saskatchewan can ship it potash without hindrance, and if Ontario and Quebec an ship their manufactured goods to markets without hindrance, then Newfoundland should be albe to ship its products on the same basis. 7 2 '12

-.... . June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2694 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: It has always been our view that had the right of Newfoundland to be treated equally been recogn ized at the time of the negotiations for the Opper Churchill development, we would never have ended up with the current situation where Quebec obtains all the benefits and we obtain none. As hon. members know, \o~e are taking every step possible to redress the inequities of that arrangement but none of this \o~ould be necessary if our rights in this regard had been recognized. Mr.

Speaker, over the past year or so, our efforts to get the federal government to act on this matter have intensified. I have spoken strongly on this issue at the First Ministers' Conferences and I have written the Prime lotiniste.r about it. My Minister of Mines and Energy, the hon. Leo Barry, has had a number of meetings and exchanges of correspondence with his counterpart, the hon. Mark LaLonde . Officia~s from Interg overnmental Affairs, Justice, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and the Cabinet Secretariat have had meetings with their counterparts both here in St. John 's on February 9, 1981, 7 21;}

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2695 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: and in Ottawa on March 10, ~981. The position which we adopted at these various meetings was that:

(1) Newfoundland must have the same rights to transport hydro­ electricity across other provinces to market as other provinces have with respect to their goods.

(2) This right could best oe granted by passing amendments to the Nat~onal Energy Broad Act to effectively regulate interprovincial and international trans­ mission of electric power. And, thirdly, that these amendments should cover both the concept of a dedicated power corridor and also the concept of wheeling power through the Quebec system. The dedicated line or power corridor approach would be adequate to cover off large blocks of power sold for a period long enough to cover the capital cost of the transmission lines constructed.

The wheeling power option would cover off the sale of smaller blocks of power and short term sales, or short run surplus power. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to state that our concerted effort of the last several years has finally resulted in the Federal Government initiating some action. As hon. members know, the Federal Government - SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! Hear, hear! - yesterday tabled draft legis- lation which would, if enacted, give the National Energy Board some of the authority we believe it should have.

I would like to congratulate the Federal Government for the initial steps it has taken. They are welcome indeed and point out the validity of the position which we have always taken on this vital matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: However, while the announcement made yesterday is indeed encouraging, the following points 7 21 4

June 23, 1981 Tape No . 2695 EL - 2 PREMIER PBCKFORD: must be noted : (l} The draft legislation has been tabled primarily as a discussion docu ­ ment and no legislative action is contemplated until some­ time this Autumn. There is no ·guarantee, therefore, that t.he proposed amendment will be legislated as proposed;

(2) The proposed amendment will only amend t.he existing legislation to the e~tent necessary to permit a dedicated line or power corridor 7215

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2696 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: situation,will only cover the situation where a large block of power is sold for a long period of time.

(3) The proposed amendment does not include granting the National Energy Board authority over the wheeling of short-term,surplus power on the existing system. We regret that this is not included since this provision would give us the flexibility tq make short run surplus power sales and would not entail our having to commit large blocks of power for long periods of time like on the Upper Churchill. Mr. Speaker, the federal pro­ posal1if enacted into legislation,will be a very useful first step in granting Newfoundland equal rights.

It recognizes the legitimacy of our position and will be of considerable assistance. It is certainly long over­ due and a step in the right direction. It is only a first step,however, and other steps are necessary, particularly the need to add amendments covering the wheeling of short-terrn,surplus power. My government welcomes this initial step but we will be maintaining our position that Newfoundland must have equal rights with other provinces. We have now attained some of the rights we believe we should automatically have as a Province.

We will keep pressina until we have attained the proper level; namely, full equality. We are encouraged by this latest-ldevelopment. We sincerely hope that the present proposal will be enacted without delay and that we can prevail upon the federal government to take the final, necessary step to grant us the equality of treatment that we should have. 7216

Jun e 23, 1981 Tape No. 2696 DW - 2 PREMIER . PECKFORD: I ask for the su:ppo .rt of this · H.ouse in congratulating the federal government for the action it proposes to take on this vital issue and also for continuing our efforts to have the federal govern­ ment make those additional changes necessary to ensure that our Province can at last attain equality with the other provinces regarding the transport of its products to markets. Mr. Speaker, this action in the last couple of days proves that when we fight for our rights we can make substantial progress. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I am proud today that we stood up - MR. THOM .S: All the trained seals are here today. 7217

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2697 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: Order, please! I am proud today that we stood up strongly for Newfoundland on this issue, just as I am proud we are standing up for Newfoundland on many other vital issues that face us. This country can work as a true federation but only if each of the partners can speak out clearly and freely on important issues. Had we remained silent, we would never have even obtained this first vital step. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Significant changes can be achieved if we have the strength of our convictions and the courage to state our position in unequivocal terns. Progress has been made and further progress • .rill be made as long as we continue to clearly state our position in issues such as this. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: has four and a half minutes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. THQI1S: MR. HANCOCK: I-ffi. SPFA~:EJ?.: MR. W. PATTERSON: MR. STIRLING: ~-1:r. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: ~AR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Opposition Hear, hear! Now we will hear - the truth. Listen now.

Listen. Order, please! No more give away. How much time did you say, Four and a half minutes. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, on this side we welcome the congratulations. I think that the record should show that the Premier has asked us to support him in his con'gratulations to the federal government. And we have now reached a milestone, I think a first and his tor:, c milestone, in which the federal goverrnent has been congratulated. Of course,he could not 7218

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2697 MR. STIRLING: resist the last little bit of federal bashing at the end. Just in case the federaL government felt inclined to co-operate and assist,the NM message has to go out that the only reason ~ the only reason that. this happened today is that the Newfou.'idland Government stood firm, kicked Ottawa in the head continuously, and then · finally Ottawa enjoyed the kicking so much that in fear of that great Newfoundland Government they rushed in and brought in the amendment. MR. MORGAN: They had no choice but to bring it in. MR. STIRLING: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me make a confession.

I must now confess to a failing as the Leader of the Opposition, as Lea?er of the Liberal Party. ~- MORGAN: You have faiied. Are you resigning? 2 .!<1R. HANCOCK: MR. STIRLING: Just listen now. Just listen now • I have allowed this government, since I became Leader, to perpetrate the greatest fraud in Newfoundland that maybe Newfoundland has ever seen, and that is the con job of saying, "Equal riahts, we do not have equal right. The only way that we can have equal rights. 7218

~ .... June 23,1981 Tape No. 2698 ah-1 MR.STIRLING: is a transportation corridor across Quebec." Mr. Speaker, we now know- we just heard it; it was couched in the most careful language-but they are saying;' Ottawa, that is not really what we wanted." They have said to all of Ne"Yrfoundland, "That is it, that is the answer; just give us the transportation corridor across Quebec',' because they never eKpected to get it, Mr. Speaker. They never expected to get it. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Shame, Shame~ MR. SPEAKER (SI~V.S) : Order, please~ MR.

STIRLING: There is nobody any more disappointed than that side of the House today because the first meeting that I had when I became Leader,I went through Labrador and on to see the Prime Minister and said, "That is the number one priority with our party." SOME HON.HEMBER: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. STIRLING: And have had, Mr. Speaker, continuous meetings that terminated this last week with Bill Rompkey and with those of our Liberal caucus saying- Sm1E HON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

STIRLING: - to the people in Ottawa, "Look, do not allow the confrontationist attitude , do not allow that to be taken out on Newfoundland. Do not allow them to get people so upset!' And, Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is that this was brought in by the federal government as part of a total bill. And, Mr. Speaker, they could learn a example from Alberta. Alberta wanted to do the same thing and they have gone ahead, Mr. Speaker, and they have reached the stage where they have to expropriate some land and that is why the amendment is needed,for Alberta.

They have gone ahead, we have wasted two years of threatening Ottawa. Why could this government have not gone ahead and anticipated that they were going 7220

June :!3,1981 Tape No.. 2698 ah - 2 MR. STIRLING : to be treated fairly? They had a commitment from the Prime Minister, ~tr. Speaker . They were treated fairly . They even had a change in the constitution to allo\" this to happen . The constitution was cha.nged tp allow it tp happen . Nhen the accord took place amongst the eight premiers,you will notice that this was not included in the eight premiers'accord. The Premier could not convince his colleagues to put this i n . And , ?1r . S9eaker, so 7 2 21 .

June 23, 1981 Tape 2699 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: now the final evidence of good faith by the federal government is to give the authority to the National Energy Board to do exactly what has been asked for not only on that side - they cannot share one minute of the credit - asked for by that side and this side, Mr. Speaker, because we are working in the best interests of Newfoundland and Labrador - no politics, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please!

Hon. members, I am sure, would like to join me in welcoming also to the Speaker's gallery today, the han. Donald Orchard, who is the Minister of Highways and Transportation in the Province of Manitoba. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And with him is Mr. Albert Driedger, who is an M.L.A. for Emerson constituency, also in the Province of Manitoba. Welcome. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: Further statements. The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

BARRY: I must say, I did not understand the last point of the Leader of the Opposition's remark because the Constitution has not been amended yet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Did they sneak the constitutional amendment through, Mr. Speaker, while we were away? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the minister has a new statement? 7222

June 23, 1981 Tape 2699 EC- 2 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make all han. members of this House aware at this time of the 1981 drilling programme of Petro-Canada Exploration Limited - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: - which has today outlined its programme as operator for what is called the Labrador Group of Companies in Newfoundland waters. Companies incl~~ad under the programme are AGIP Canada Limited, Amerada Minerals Corporation of Canada Limited, Aquitaine Company of Canada Limited, Gulf, Suncor, Eastcan and Total. There will be three drilling vessels involved in this programme.

For the past ten days or so one of these vessels, as many members have observed, the Ben Ocean Lancer, has been at dockside in St. John's loading and preparing for the Summer's programme and I am told the ship was due to sail about noon today. In addition, the drill ships Pelerin and Pacnorse I will be involved. The Pelerin will start work in early July and the Pacnorse I a little later. The 1981 programme calls for the completion of two previously spudded wells and the drilling of one new wildcat well, The first of these, Mr.

Speaker, will be testing of the Bjarni 0-82 well which is located some 160 kilometers East of Hopedale, Labrador. This well was previously partially tested and produced natural gas and condensate. Members will recall the natural gas production was seven and one-half million cubic feet per day and the condensate at a ra.te of seventy-five barrels per day. 7 2 2 ,i

June 23, 1981 Tape 2699 EC - 3 MR. BARRY: The Ben Ocean Lancer will begin the work as soon as she arrives on station. This vessel will then move on to the previously spudded North Bjarni 7224

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2700 DW - 1 MR. L. BARRY: F-06 well, which is about 8 kilometers North of Bjarni 0-82. The Pellerin will start drilling at a previously spudded well~ North Leif 1-0S,and drill this well to its projected total depth of 3400 metres. The Pacnorse_l will start drilling in late July at another location ,, the Rut H-11 well. This well, Mr. Speaker, is about 65 kilometers Northeast of Saglek, Labrador. I should like to add, Mr. Speaker, that depending on the results of the drilling I have outlined, and available drill time, an additional two wells could be spudded this season.

Also, in addition to this 1981 drilling programme, Petro-Canada will carry out a seismic programme covering approximately 3000 line kilometers on ·the Labrador Shelf, at a cost of approximately 3 million dollars. The company will also continue its Offshore Labrador Biological Studies Programme. This is an industry, government and community programme involvinq baseline environmental data-gathering to assist in the assessment of oil and gas developments off the coast of Labrador.

Work this year will involve seabird, marine mammal and ice surveys, and ground fish studies and analysis of physical oceanographic data previously collected, as well as completion of an Initial Environmental Assessment. Mr. Speaker, I wish also to call the attention of hon. members to the fact that Petro-Canada as operator for this group of companies has made a concerted effort to use goods and services available in Newfoundland and pursuant to our regulations. 7225

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2700 ow - 2 MR. L. BARRY: It is interesting too, to know some of the employment effects Petro-Canad .a 's 1981 drilling programme will have in Newfc::mndland. Mr. ~peaker, the company's operations base will be in St. John's at pier 14 and about one half of the - AN HON. M E..l'.ffiER: MR. L. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. BARRY: Pierre? Yeah, I know.Pierre is at sea as well. Hear, hear! - and about one half of the thirty people employed there will be Newfoundlanders.

Also, bases will be operated in Labrador, at Goose Bay, Cartwright, Saglek, Hopedale and 90 per cen $= of the thirty or more employees will be Labradorians. Also,Petro-Canada plans to have an environmental co-ordinator and a community relations officer employed as \o/ell as ice. observers on ships and personnel carrying out aerial ice reconnaissance flights . Petro-Canada will use nine supply ships, two fixed wing aircraft, and four helicopters. This programme, Mr. Speaker, is expected to cost in the order of $90 million.

A substa .ntial portion of this amount will be spent in Newfoun dland and Labrador on employment, goods and services, mainly because of the fact that we are enforcing our local preference regulations. SOME BON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! 7226

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2701 EL - 1 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition has about three minutes. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a great day in this House of Assemblv when we have the Min­ ister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) bein~ the public relations arm of Petro-Canada . A wonderful statement on behalf of Petro­ Canada. MR. BARRY: (inaudible) • MR. STIRLING: SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR.

STIRLING: You are the P-R man for One of the questions - Oh oh! -that the Minister of Mines and Energy does not seem to realize and he is very careful to try to create the impression that Petro-Canada has nothing to do with the Federal Government. Well, of course, if that PC Government, if the PC Government on the other side and the Pe people that got turfed out at the first opportunity in Canada, if they had had their way-and their statements are on the record- if they h~d had their way, there would be no Petro-Canada, Mr. Speaker, no Petro-Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

STIRLING: And if you look at the = n'.:ent, Mr. Speaker- and this is a great public relations job-but if you look at the contents, not a nickle, not a single nickle in this is being spent by the Provincial Government. They are great at taking credit, great at standing up, great , Mr. Speaker, on making a statement 1 but there is not a nickle, not a nickle to be spent by the Provincial Government. All 7227

June 23r 1981 Tape No. 2701 -EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: Federal dollars, all Liberal, good Liberal philosophy, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: Speaker .. MR. TULK: he is a Liberal. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ): A good Liberal philosophy, Mr. The Premier is finally realizing Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Done unilaterally, Mr. Speaker, unilaterally yes. They did not have the permission of all the Provinces, they kept it going unilaterally, Petro-Canada, now the prime mover in exploration off the coast of Newfound­ land, Mr. Speaker.

A great day for this House of Assembly, a great day for the Mines and Energy Minister (L. Barry) that he can get up and be the public relations .arm for Petro­ Canada. We whole-heartedly support it, Mr. Speaker. The only thing that we suggest is that the day come when they operate this Labrador operation from Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: osition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The bon. the Leader of the Opp- Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier that arises from his Ministerial Statement.

Do I take it from the Premier that getting the power corridor across Quebec,which is what he wanted,is not enough and that there are now going to be delays while he attempts to get the right to wheel power by the Federal Government? Do I take it that what he has asked for, now that he has got it, he is saying that is still not enough and that the Churchill Falls Development will not start to take place until he gets wheeling right? 7228

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2702 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, obviously the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) has not been well informed about the statement from the federal government over the weekend.As I understand it,it is that they are not going to introduce legislation immediately, , unfortunately. We would like for them to introduce that legislation in this session, this week or this month,before it closes down for the Summer.

We have now a commitment in principal from PASNY for delivering power to New York State, so we are prepared to get into final negotiations with a whole bunch of customers 1 including PASNY for that.~ut the federal government has now indicated an intent to introduce legislation. They have also said, and I had a telex from the Prime Minister to show this, that they are not going to introduce it until the Fall at the earliest.

So when the Leader of the Opposition talks about this government delaying something 1he should understand that the federal government themselves have no intention, as I understand it, of introducing this legislation unti .l the Fall.

This is a very important first step and recognizes and acknowledges the fight and the argument that we have been making for the last two years that we should have the same right as other Canadians to transmit our energy· products across neighbouring provinces, So we recognize it, as I said in my statement, as an important first step, but since last October we have been negotiating with the Prilt\e Minister's office, with Mr.

LaLonde's office, with the Depa,rtrn.ent of Justice, with the Department of Finance and people in our own government for two things; that the existinq Quebec system - we will pay our way, but if power from . Labrador can be transmitted across. th .e existing Quebec system ,we will pay for whate ver it costs us to transmit it across that system­ we do ~ot w~~t anything free, we will pay our way~ then that 7229

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2702 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: should be used as well as a power corridor because that will allow for short term supplies to be provided to the United States market,or wherever the market happens to be.

If the corridor itself,whilst a significant step forward,still makes the Province of Newfoundland vulnerable to having to provide large blocks of power for a long period of time, in other words, it resembles the Upper Churchill contract in that context,and we do not want to have to be totally committed to just that avenue so we would like to see an addition- ~nd we have said this since last October, I can table all the proposals that we have put forward which had to do with a corridor as well.as the existing Quebec system which can take - and we will pay our way - certain amounts of power along their existing system which will make it more advantageous for Canada, more advantageous for Newfoundland in the sale of power to the United States without having to get into a long term 1 long block of power.

There has been movement and we are glad that the federal government has finally recognized what we have said for two years.And we have argued strongly, we have stood on our rights, I argued with the Prime Minister right up to the last day of the Constitutional Conference on that matter,and we are glad to see that they have acknowledged that-federal bureaucrats have right from the start, to give the bureaucrats credit, they really have. 723n

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2703 NM - l PREMIER PECKFORD: Most of the people in the Prime Minister's Office, who advise the Prime Minister, most of the people in Mr. Lalonde's office, in the Intergovernmental Affairs office up there, as well as others, have recognized the rights that Newfoundland has here if we are going to be treated as other Canadians.

But if we are going to make sure we maximize Canadian power out of Labrador 1then we cannot be left suspect and vulnerable to large blocks of power for long periods of time, that if we are going to be treated as equal Canadians in that case, if we are going to be full-fledged Canadians then we should be able to provide power sales across the Quebec system that is available to us, paying our way as we get those sales West from Labrador. We do not want anything from Quebec, 'ITe will pay our way 1 but that existing system is very important for short term,small blocks of power.

If that is .done, as well as what has now been proposed to be done, then we will be equal 1 full-fledged in this Confederation andthecongratulations today will be given again tomorrow as soon as those kinds of additional amendments are made to the National Energy Board Act. SOME HON. MEMBEPS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I take it that we have a commitment from the Premier now to table all the documents, all the correspondence that he has had since that date that he mentioned last Fall, up until the present time. He said that he could table it, he said it in a speech last week that he would table it,but I have not seen the documents, Do I now under- stand that you will table those documents and the letters that you mentioned dealing with officials? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is very unusual of the Leader of the Opposition because the first question was answered so 7231

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2703 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: comprehensively that he did not come back on any of the points that he asked in his initiaJ . question, but now diverts the attention of the House to whether am I going to table the documents or not. But given that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) has no grounds on which to ask a supplementary based upon the substance - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order! PREMIER PECKFORD : - then there is no question I will table,and I had so indicated already before the Leader of the Opposition even raised it.

But let it be noted that the Leader of the Opposition's supplementary question on the original question, bears very scanty resemblance to the original question in its substance in the sense that •'e - he is, as well as I am, the Liberal Party and the Liberal Opposition are as convinced as I am, that if we are going to be equal Canadians we also need that wheeling right as well as the power corridor. But to answer him directly, no question, we will table the proposals that we have made to the federal authorities to allow for the wheeling as well as the corridor. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, the hon. Leader Yes, Mr. Speaker, when the Premier gets carried away with his rhetoric he has from time to time made kinds of statements like this. Like last week, Mr. Speaker, he made a statement in which he had provided documentations for how much we are paying to Canada;he still has not documented, or tabled, that study. And that is why I wanted to be specific. Because, Mr. Speaker, my information is that he has not had any of these meetings and that it is a fabrication of somebody's mind. And that is why, Mr.

Speaker, once it is documented then that will take away any of the argument. 7232

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 270 3 NM - 3 MR. STIRLING: Now I understand - getting back to the main question since the Premier is so anxious to get on supplementary questions out o£ the main question- as I under­ stand what he is saying now is that he did not start or make the assumption a year ago that he would be given this power corridor 1 and now what he 7233

June 23 1981 Tape No. 2704 ah-1 MR. STIRLING: is talking about is a power corridor across Quebec,plus the right to use Quebec's own power system just the same way as we have a power system and Newfoundland Telephone and Newfoundland Light, what we are talking about is a right to use somebody else's system in addition to the power corridor. Is that what I understand the Premier to say? MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Since the Leader of the Opposition was suppose to have pulled off this coup over the weekend, I find it incredible that he asks such elementary questions on a very basic issue for Newfoundland rights and as it relates to hydro transmission. I find it absolutley incredible. Now, that is number one. Number two, on the question of my rhetoric, Mr. Speaker, it is not rhetoric Newfoundlanders are not getting tired of it. If the bon. member wants to see a numher of nolls. SCliiE HCN. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: We will stand up for Newfoundland's rights,and that is what rhetoric is all about, Mr. Speaker, standing up for Newfoundland. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Let the non-Newfoundlanders and non-Labradorians opposite choose their own seats,Mr.Speaker. We are here to stand up for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in the Confederation,equal to other provinces, no more, no less. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now I can only take it that the Leader of the Opposition did not understand my answers up to now.

I am saying to the Leader of the Opposition that if we are to have fullfledged equality within the Canadian Confederation as a Province of Canada-which we ask for, which we request- and for the Leader of the 7234

,.,.. June 23;1981 Tape No. 2704 ah-2 PREMIER PRCKFORD: Opposition to say that he cannot believe that we had meetings~ We initiated meetings through the Prlffie Minister's office,for the Leader of the Opposition's benefit- MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) PREMIER PECKFORD: - because the other members on the other side,I am sure,have already accepted the words that are written down in this Ministerial Statement. Now the Leader of the Opposition has not 1but I am sure the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) has, I am sure the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has, I am sure the member for St. r1ary's­ The Capes (Mr.

Hancock) has, and other members on the opposite side have accepted that we last year initiated discussions with the Prime Minister's office and the first meeting after those discussions were initiated, and I mentioned this in the House last week, we had discussions in - MR. STIRLING: You said you were going to table them. PRF..MIER PECKFORD: I will table them. We have had discussions in St. Jonh'son February 9,1981. That ·:.was the first fullfledged meeting. That was in my statement today.And then the next meetings were held on March 10,1981 in Ottawa.

So meetings have been held and our proposals have been put forward and I will table tornorrow,or make sure it is tabled if I am not here tornorrow,the relevant correspondence and the kind of proposals we put forward. Now, Mr. Speaker, to get to the nub of the issue,it is simply this~that if there is a surplus on the Quebec system-which there is and it has been identified - then we want - MR. STIRLING: Did you table that too? PREMIER PECKFORD: -through the Natural Energy Board- we will give the proposals. MR. STIRLING: Will you ta~le them? 7235

T.<. June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2705 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I did not say a word when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) asked the question. I would ask him the same courtesy to me in ~ing the question. Can I answer the question, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order! The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: So, therefore, if we are to have the same kind of equality throughout Canada as other pro- vinces now enjoy, we wish to pay our way a.nd have an impartial body adjudicate it, not Newfoundland adjudicate it, but an agency of the federal government, the National Energy Board will decide; not an -agency of the Province, an agency of the federal government decide upon the legitimacy, the price of wheeling that power across an existing Quebec system. We will pay our way on that score. vle are not asking for some­ thing for nothing. We will pay our way on that system.

That will allow us to get out of that historic and traditional way of dealing with other provinces and other countries whereby we have to sell large blocks of resources for a long period of time in order for us to be able to make it work and to capitalize our construction costs.

We are asking for those two elements; a power corridor,which has been acknowledged and hopefully which will become federal legislation, and we are now asking, which we asked for last October, last February and March past,for the same thing as it relates to the existing system, so that we can get out of that historic role of being somehow subservient and having to give away everything over a long period of time. We want to have the s~e kind of maneovreability as we have always had.

We have said that from the start, we are saying it now and we will continue to say it, but we do acknowledge that the federal government has agreed with us on what we have 7236

June 23, 1981 PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON. MEHBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Tape No. 2705 DW - 2 advocated over the last two years. Hear, hear! The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). Mr. Speaker, the National Sea operation in Piccadilly has locked out its employees and they have been shipping fish to other parts of the South­ west coast of the Island and the plant is new down in the height of the fishing season and is causing great economic hardship in that particular area.

I was wondering if the minister was aware of the situation and has ·he anybody that is monitoring this particular situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, yes 1 I am aware of it because yesterday evening the matter was brought to my attention by my colleague, the member for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) and again this morning by the hon. member for the area - Piccadilly is in his district - and upon the representations from the two members, the member for Stephen­ ville, and the member who asked the question, we have been in contact with the company,National Sea Products and, of course, National Sea has been operating that Piccadilly facility under a lease from the Newfound~and government and they have been primarily involved in a ·salting operation, a saltfish operation, They tell us that the reason why they have been trucking out the smaller fish from the area is because it is not suitable 7237

... June 23, 1981 Tape 2706 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: for salting and they are taking it out for processing into a fresh fish product in places like Triton, in particular, trucking it over across to the Northeastern coast of the Province. They have informed us this morning that they are willing to carry on their normal operations at Piccadilly; however, the employees of the plant 1 because they were opposed to the trucking of this fish to be processed in the fresh frozen state, the opposition was so great from the employees that they forced the close-down of the plant.

I understand from the company that they are willing to go back and commence again the normal operations of salting fish; however, the fish that is not suitable for salting will be trucked out to be further processed in the fresh frozen plants in Triton and possibly in - I think it was mentioned, in Jackson's Arm, in particular, in other plants they have where there is a fresh filleting operation ongoing, they will take the smaller fish from Piccadilly and process it in these plants. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Por .t au Port. MR.

HODDER: I would point out to the minister tha~ the smaller fish which the minister is talking about and which the company is talking about are fish under twenty-four inches, and I am told that this represents about 70 per cent of the catch that is coming out of Port au Port at the present time, from talking to the fishermen and the type of fish that is coming in. So basically what the company has asked the employees to do is to ship their jobs out of Port au Port. In other words, there will be nobody working in that plant.

The plant is a fresh fish facility although they are an agent for the Salt Fish Corporation. 7238

... June 23, 1981 Tape 2706 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: But ~t the height of the fishing season, National_Sea has decided that they will ship fresh fish, when they have that capacity in Port au Port, away from the district.

Now, we know that this district has one of the highest unemployment rates in Newfoundland and I would ask the minister if he would consider using the same tactics in this case as he talked about last year in the case of Nickerson's and National Sea,that if the company does not process to the satisfaction of the people!" and in the area in which they have been given their licence, that their licence be taken away. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I .am very pleased to see that the Opposition -members are now rec09'I1izing the .. importance of having a ~ocal preference policy. SOME .HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. MORGAN: Because, Mr. Speaker, although it may be a bit more parochial than the Province-wide preference policy with regard to hiring Newfoundlanders, the principle is indeed the very same whereby the member is asking that preference be given to employees from his own local area of Port au Port - Piccadilly 7239

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2707 EL - 1 MR. MORGAN: and given preference over employees being hired in other parts of the Province to process the fish caught and landed in Piccadilly. It is the same principle, Mr. Speaker 1 and I am pleased to see he is now supporting our policy. But, Mr.

Speaker, indeed we view it very seriously that any company that is buying fish from fishermen in our local areas, if they have the necessary facilities there 1 and we feel they do because we are leasing these facilities owned by the Newfound- land government on a lease arrangement with the company, that unless it is absolutely necessary for that fish to be taken away from Piccadilly to other plants,because the plant is there, because the facility is there in place and can be used for salting operations, we will be monitoring the sit­ uation closely over the next couple of days.

We have asked our local field staff in the areas to go into the area and talk with the local company officials. We talked to the senior officials this morning from our office in St. John's and if the situation continues, they are going to have to give us a good explanation as to why fish is being taken from the area and not being processed in Piccadilly. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Port au Port. Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to point out to the minister that Piccadilly has a fish plant, Burgee has a fish plant, Port aux Basques and every other community: Port au Port has a fish plant but unfort­ unately I see no preference policy when you ask that fish being caught in a particular area where there is a particular fish plant not be processed in that particular area. 7240

··r June 23, 1981 Tape NO. 2707 EL - 2 MR. HODDER: But forgetting the politics of the situation, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister, in. light of the fact that what we have been talking about here for the past few minutes is the plant,but National Sea has done something much more serious to the Port au Port Pen- insula. They have a monopoly on the peninsula itself - T.J. Hardy is in the Fox Island River area -and they have now stopped buying fish from the fishermen. Now, at the present time the fish is being shipped off the peninsula down to the Southwest Coast down to King Fisheries.

That is not a guaranteed supply. So not only do we have the only fish plant shut down,but we have fishermen who are not guaranteed a processor or a market for their fish,and it is a very ten- uous situation. Would the minister look into this aspect of it as well because if Eric King Fisheries were suddenly to get a glut, then all of the fish on.the Port au Port fen- insula, twenty-six cornrnunities,would not have a buyer for their fish.Would the minister look into that as well? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, indeed I will look into it.

The fact is we recognize our responsibility for the processing end of the fishing industry in our Province and we are exercising it to the best of our ability. And fortunately, Mr. Speaker, we do have jurisdiction because if the federal minister has jurisdiction at the present time over the processing sector of the industry, he will be closing down fish plants around the Province. There are too many fish plants in the Province- I quote the Weekend_ he was here. That is the reason why·, Mr. Speaker, he refused to give support to the St. Barbe fish plant, that multi-million L< • dollar plant on the St. Barbe Coast.

It is a shame. It is out- right discrimination against the residents of the St. Barbe coast, outright discrimination, Mr. Speaker. 7241

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2707 EL - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. MORGAN: But, indeed, Mr. Speaker, as the hon; member points out there is a plant in Piccadilly that 7242

June 23, 1981, Tape 2708, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: can be utilized. There is no reason why it cannot be utilized. It was leased by the Newfoundland Government to that company, National Sea, for the very purpose of being utilized and to use local people in the area. At the same time, more importantly, in fact, it was to ~te markets for the fishermen in the Piccadilly area, and the Port au Port area, generally.

So as I can now assure the House and the hon. gentleman, we will monitor the situation very closely over the next twenty-four hours and have further consultation and talks with the company in the hope the matter can be resolved between the company and the local employees, and get that plant back in operation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR.. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries as well, Mr. Speaker, and it pertains to the whales that are around the province.

There seems to be a large number of whales this year, more than any other year, the fishermen tell me - MR. NEARY: And there is the biggest whale of all over there, look, a beluga. MR. HANCOCK: The fishermen are getting fed up with the treatment that they have been getting in the past and they told me over the weekend they are soon going to take their guns and shoot the whales. So we are going to have blood bath in the district that I represent. I would like to know what the minister is doing about it in his own department so that we will not have that kind of a scene this coming Summer? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. 7243

June 23, 1981, Tape 2708, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have been reading copies of correspondence going back and forth from the hon. gentleman from St. Mary•s - The Capes district (Mr. Hancockl to the federal Minister of Fisheries and I am somewhat disappointed to see that he has no influence with his colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. LeBlanc) in Ottawa, on behalf of his fishermen in St. Mary's -The Capes district.

Because yesterday mo,rning, in fact, listening to the local Open­ Line show on the VOCM network, the numerous fishermen calling in complaining about the fact they are having their fishing gear destroyed or damaged again this year by whales, they were all wondering why, and what has happened to the programme announced last Fall by the federal minister when he came into the Province and addressed the fishermen at a Fishermen's Union convention here in St. John's and, indeed, announced a compensation programme for whales.

Now, if he is going to put the programme in place, all we are saying is get the programme in place now because the damage is occurring now. The fishermen are suffering the consequences again of the neglect of federal government policy which they should have put in place since they have jurisdiction over our fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . MR. HANCOC'K: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. the member for St. Mary • s - The Capes·. MR. HANCOC'K: E'very tilne we run into a problem in this Province with the fishery, Mr. Speaker, it is blame it on Ottawa.

I do not know why we need a local de­ partment of Fisheries to begin with. But I would ask the 7244

June 23, 1981, Tape 2708, Page 3 -- apb MR. H..'?j,NCOCK: minister at this tim.e, does he support the Minister of Tourism (.Mr. Andrews) when he is going to try to promote the whaling industry as a tourist attraction to the people of this Province? How does the minister feel about that problem, or this problem we are going to be faced with where we have the Minister of Tourism promoting it as· a tourist attraction? Does he agree with it or not? MR. SPEAKER(Sin'ims'} : Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The h.on. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, on the first part of the question the fact is that it seems whenever there is a problem of any magnitude witn the fishing industry under federal jurisdiction, when they will not act in Ottaw~ they automatically ask us to take over and spend money on their jurisdiction. That is what happens. every time. The fact is that in 1~72 the country of Canada imposed a ban on the killing and hunting of whales in our country, in our waters. It was Canada which took the initiative. So Canada should hOld some responsibility with regard to either bringing back tl'i.e hunting and killing 7245

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2709 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: of whales, allowing a certain quota to be taken of these whales in our waters each year,or to compensate the fishermen who are suffering the consequences of having these whales in our inshore waters and having substantial damages caused to their fishing gear. For example, I talked to a fisherman this morning and he had a cod trap totally destroyed, it costs $6,000 or $7,000 to replace. It is not a very funny matter to these fishermen because they could very well loose their total inshore fishing season this Summer, right now. So, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is asking us what action we are taking. We have been taking action for the last number of months by having an Assistant Deputy Minister on a committee appointed by the federal minister who led the Newfoundland, who led the Newfoundland Fishermen's Food and Allied Workers Union, who led the fishermen of our Province to believe that there would be a compensation programme put in place by the beginning of the inshore fi .shing season this year. However, for some strange reason,unknown to us and unknown to the Newfoundland fishermen, Mr.

LaBlanc has now backed off on that compensation programme. MR. HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (_Simms): Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the han. ' member for St. Mary 1s - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: r have never seen a man be so evasive in my life, Mr. Speaker. I asked him a straightforward question,' did he agree with the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Andrews) when the Minister of Tourism wants to promote the whaling industry as a tourist attra.cti.on to th.e people of this Province? On a supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, could the minister inform - he ma y have better contacts in Ottawa than I have - I understand that the programme may be finalized this week-or it may not be. I hope it is;if not I will be taking a strip 7246

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2709 so - 2 MR. HANCOCK: as well. off the federal Minister of Fisheries SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. HANCOCK: You can mark that in your book, Mr. Speaker, But I told Ottawa I wanted an answer by the end of next week or I am going to come down on the side of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) here and I have to defend the people I was elected to defend, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HANCOCK: SOME HON. MEMBERS : I would ask the minister - Oh, oh. MR. HANCOCK: - the proposal that has been put up, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if it is a cost shared programme, is the Province going to get involved at all,or is it going to be strickly Ottawa? Would the minister inform us as to whether or not this is going to be a cost shared programme for compensation for fishermen affected by whales,or are you willing to participate in the programme? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, I will gladly answer that question because I am pleased he asked that question, because there has been some criticism of us removing the half cent subsidy we had on fish prices back in 1979 which was used as a gear replacement subsidy. We took it off for one reason, Mr. Speaker, to have available to us funds which we could use and put in place with a federal government overall gear insurance programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MOR.GAN: MR .• STIRLING: MR. MORGAN: North (Mr. Stirling), Oh, oh. Mr.

Speaker - (Inaudible) The hon. member for Bonavi .sta I get calls every day from his fishermen out there who are fed up with his representation. If he wants to listen carefully,he should,because his fishermen are very concerned over his lack of concerns on their behalf. And, Mr, Speaker 7247

June 23, 1981 Tape No . 2709 so - 3 MR. MORGAN: we took off the half cent subs idy and we put in place, Mr. Speaker, a funding available for an overall fishing gear insurance programme . That programme was approved by the Fishermen's Union of our Province, the Fishermen 's Union and ourselves put forward to Ottawa this programme, a proposal to the federal minister as long as twelve months ago; last June, in fact , it was put forward to 7248

· June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2710 DW - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: Ottawa for an overall fishing gear insurance programme which would see the Newfound­ land Government participate financially, the federal government take part financiall,as well and we are looking forward to the guidance. and leadership of the Fishermen's Union to do the administering of this kind of an insurance programme. For some strange reason again, Mr. Speaker, for some strange reason - maybe it is because he is going to move to a naw portfolio, I do not know what it is in Ottawa-but for some strange reason,Mr.

LeBlanc is again ignoring the wishes of the fisherrren. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. H.llliCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile. We have about a minute remaining. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Neary) yields The Capes. MR. D. HANCOCK: I will yeild to my colleague. The hon. member for LaPoile The hon. member for St. Mary's - I would like to ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker, if the provincial government is going to promote the whaling industry as a tourist attraction to people outside this P~ovince, does he not feel that they have a responsibility to live up to and look after the fishermen who have been affected by whale damage? MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, the question would be probably be better posed to my colleague, the minister responsi­ ble for tourism.

But I am sure that if there are any means and ways of this government obtaining funds from any source at all, any source of revenue 1 they are going to take the initiative to get that means of revenue. And in this in case if it would happen to be that whales were in the inshore waters and because they are under federal jurisdiction people 7249

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2710 ow - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: from Ontario, from Alberta, from Winnipeg or from Manitoba want to see these whales, well,sure,why not! Why should not the Department of Tourism arrange for these people to see these whales? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. L. THOMS: . MR. J. MORGAN: Oh,oh! But the fact is, Mr. Speaker - (Inaudible) . The hon. gentlemen for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) 1 his fishermen were in last week in my office and they said they have not seen the hon. gentlemen since he got elected two years ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): expired. Oh, oh! Order, please!

Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 1. ~- SPEAKER: The Committee of Ways and Means on the Budget Debate. The last day we were debating the amendment proposed by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). The debate was then adjourned by the hon. the Premier. He is not here,so we will recognize now the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. STIRLING: Than~ you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wonder why the Premier decided not to come back and enter into the debate today?

He got into the last fifteen minutes of the Budget debate, made some comments about secret meetings that he had been having with Ottawa, but he was very disappointed, did not think that he was going to get what he was looking for out of these secret meetings. He has now sort of 7250

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2710 DW - 3 MR. L. STIRLING: whithered away and has given up his right to speak in the Budget debate. Mr. Speaker, it is almost two years - out of courtesy to the Premier, Mr. Speaker, if the Premier would like to conclude his remarks on the Budget debate,! will yield if I do not lose my right to speak 1 if that is agreed? PREMIER P:ECKFORD: Evecyt.ine the hen. gentleman, speaks there axe the votes for us. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): now has the floor. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. L.BARRY: MR. L. STIRLING: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition I take it that the Premier does not - (Inaudible} recognized (inaudible). ~ank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The very co-operative, courteous Minister of Mines and ,Energy (Mr. Barry) has somehow today got his nasty pills. A most unl!kely candidate for being nasty. Mr. Speaker, it is almost two years to the c;lay - just a few days - 7251

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2711 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) see you go. MR. STIRLING: You know more about losing leader- ship races than anybody on this side. Mr. Speaker, it is almost two years to the day since this government was elected - two or three days ago. In those two years, Mr. Speaker, we should have seen Newfoundland and Labrador take full advantage of its position as a Province of Canada. What better could you hope for, Mr. Speaker? Two years ago, a brand new government, great advertising campaign, elected on the basis that they could co­ operate with Ottawa, a P.C. Government in Ottawa and a P.C.

Government in Newfoundland, we were in the land of milk and honey. Mr. Speaker, the very fi-rst act of this government that could co-operate so fully with the P.C. Government in Ottawa was to call the P.C. Minister of Fisheries a traitor. Mr. Speaker, we saw in the attitude of the government from that day forward a government that be­ came the victim, the very first victim of our greed associated with offshore oil. Suddenly, Mr. Speaker, this government had to have all of the power, all of the benefits, all of the juris­ diction. MR. PATTERSON: MR. STIRLING: Shared powers. Do not get confused now. Mr.

Speaker, the sharing was 100 per cent/ nothing; we own it, nothing further to be debated. And suddenly the Premier and the government became the arrogant con­ frontationalists and started to plant the first seeds of despair and confusion and insecurity. The attempt to cut himself loose from the Moores years - the first sign of disloyalty and be­ trayal was when the Premier left the Liberal Party at the in­ vitation of John Crosbie and Frank Moores and was elected a Conservative in 1972. He became a parliamentary 7252

.. June 23, 1981 Tape 2711 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: assistant, Mr. Speaker, and then served in the Moores Cabinet, served loyally during the difficult years, years when the Cabinet was torn by the revelations that concluded with the statement in the Mahoney Royal Commission that the government ignored the Public Tendering Act. The Premier, Mr. Peckford, had many occasions when he could have resigned over information contained in the Minutes of the Cabinet meetings; however, he remained loyal to Premier Moores, did not disclose what was happening in the Cabinet and did not resign from the Cabinet. MR.

MORGAN: MRo SPEAKER (Butt): Minister of Fisheries. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, the hon. the MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, most parlimentarians who can handle debate in the House normally speak without reading a speech. The hon. gentleman is now reading a speech someone wrote for him. May I ask he table that same speech in the House, please? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we all recognize the fact that it is a rule of the House that you are not permitted to read a speech, but on most occasions when a speech is being read, especially by a new member, the Speaker and the members qf the House turn a - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! A new leader! alf. No, turn a blind eye to it. Oh, oh! Order, please! But I just wanted to draw to the attention of the Chair that only today we saw a 7253

June 23, 1981 MR. NEARY: by the Premier. MR. MORGAN: but this is a speech. Tape 2711 EC - 3 Ministerial Statement being read Ministerial Statements, yes, 7254

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2712 ah-1 MR. NEARY: No, it is not different, Mr. Speaker. That is the same thing. AN HON. MEMBER: It was tabled, too. MR. NEARY: Well, maybe it was tabled, but the hon. gentleman could have tabled it before he read it for that matter. But, Mr. Speaker, this is tradition in the House: the hon. gentleman is not reading a speech, nobody wrote a speech for the hon. gentleman; the hon. gentleman is merely using notes as reference, Mr. Speaker, and copious notes - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: - at that an~ as far as I know that is in order, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I certainly do not believe that there is a valid point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr .. Speaker, it is mos·t amusing, really amusing, that the Minister o£ Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) gets concerned that I am reading from - MR. MORGAN: Table it (inaudible)_ non. member, MR. STIRLING: - some notes, Now, Mr. Speaker, the reason that I h.ave a few notes prepared is th.at I want to make sure that I am being correct, that I am being so concerned that I am giving the members full credit and tha.t they are accurate. And I was talking about the loyalty, Mr.

Speaker, of the premier and I' can understa.nd that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morganl would be very conce;t'ned about the fact that h.e would like to disassociate himself from the Moores' years, from the years when he was a member of that Cabinet, and concerned that - that minister had the unique distinction from those Moores' years of being th.e 7255

~ June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2712 ah-2 MR. STIRLING: minister, Mr. Speaker, that had to appear before the Public Accounts Committee and was judged by four - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) han. gentleman (inaudible) Deputy Mayor (inaudible) had to insure all buildings in St. John's. Account for that, now, as Deputy Mayor. MR. STIRLING: - members on their side and four members on this side of finding that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) . MR. HODDER: MR. MORGAN: Florida with Mr. Johnson. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. STIRLING: Fisheries. - MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

STIRLING: Smear! Smear! Buying a condominium down in Smear, smear. You always were. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the Mini~ter of (Inaudible) Deputy Mayor. Order, please! - has been found to"have contravened the Public Tendering Act. MR. MORGAN: Tell us the facts. MR. STIRLING: Probably one of the things that if a man had any decency, Mr. Speaker, if there was an item of decency, a man who has a reputation for breaking the Public Tendering Act was found to be - MR. MORGAN: Who (inaudible)? MR,. THOMS: MR. STIRLING: Tendering A,ct. MR.. TULK: MR,. MOR,GA,N : a fine place (inaudible}.

MR., S~EA,KER,: Knowingly. - knowingly broke the Public A smear artist. St, John's insurance (inaudible} Order, please! 7256

June 23, 198 1 AN HON . MEMB ER: MR. HODDER: let them get you. MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 2712 ah-3 You are jealoUs, that is all. Do not let them get you. Do not If he would do that as Deputy Mayor, what would he do as Premier? MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, in those past two years the Premier remained loyal to the twelve members of the former Cabinet and, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who was a member of the twelve members, the only person who could have taken action - MR. MORGJ\N: (Inaudible). MR. TU .L.K: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER : (Butt) : Order! Say that outside the House! Oh, oh!

Order, please! Order, please! I will have to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to restrain himself. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. AN HON. MEMBER: N~e him! 72 57

""' June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2713 NM - 1 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, just recently it was revealed in this House of Assembly that the unanimous opinion of the Labour Relations Board, a board having the same jurisdiction as a court under the Labour Relations Act, found that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) had attempted to intercede and influence the board. Mr.

Speaker, members of the IBEW, the NewfoundlanQ Federation of Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers, the Construction Trades Council, NAPE, all said that they had no confidence, and the Premier continued to remain loyal to his former colleague in the Moores' Government and did not ask for his resignation. Premier Moores must have wondered why the sudden change of attitude when Premier Peckford severed all connections with him. The next person to become a victim was Jim McGrath when he was the Minister of Fisheries in the PC Government of Joe Clark. He was named a traitor. And, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier set out to tie his wagon to three mother­ hood issues; offshore gas and oil, the fishery and energy. Mr. Speaker, when he realized he had gone too far with his anti­ Canada separatist vie~he denied press reports, Mr. Speaker, in which twelve reporters, including Canadian Press, reported that he would conduct a referendum to see if Newfoundland wished to separate. In the past two years, Mr.

Speaker, and again in this budget, regardless of all the public relations statements, and all the news media comment, the actions or the lack of action, scream loudly that this government, if this government had its way, we would never have joined Confederation in 1949. As a matter of fact,it would be interesting to speculate who would be the leader of the Anti-Confederates if that vote was taken today. Who would be the one saying 7258

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2713 NM - 2 MR. STIRLING: Newfoundland has its ri~hts, Newfoundland to be restored to responsible government, Newfoundland to have its fishery, Newfoundland to have its offshore, and Newfoundland to be the independent dominion of Newfoundland? Who would be leading that Anti-Confederate fight? Despite all of the pretence, Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is by the government's own Five Year Plan and a report from APEC, this Province will be standing still until 1984 or until this - MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : for St. John's North. MR.

CARTER: A point of order, the hon. member I am quite interested in what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) is saying, but if he is reading his speech I must insist that it be tabled at some point after he is finished speaking. Because there is a rule in this House; you may read whatever you like, even if it is unparliamentary, I suppose, but it must be tabled at some point or as soon as possible after it has been read. And he is obviously reading something. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ That is the same point of order that arose before and the Chair ruled that there was no point _of order.

As I understand it, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is referring to some notes that he has made and therefore it is not a verbatim report from a speech on the table and would not require tabling. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 7259

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2714 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: You are not allowed to use a lectern in the House either, so why do you not mention that to little Alfie the next time he does that? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speakerp One of the documents, Mr. Speaker, I will be pleased to table in just a minute. Mr. Speaker, one of the documents I will be pleased to table is this one that I quote from, Mr. Speaker, and I am very pleased to table the documents. "Dear Voter, How many time have you heard the Opposition member say he can do nothing?

There will not be a general election for another eighteen to twenty-four months. The by-election is on Friday. You can vote for an Opposition candidate, who can do nothing,. or you can vote for Jim Peddle, who can work with me to im­ prove Bellevue district and Newfoundland. If you do not like Jim Peddle's performance or mine before the next general el­ ection, you can vote him out and me with him. The choice is yours. Vote for a chance or vote for little or nothing. I challenge you to give Jim Peddle and me a chance.

Are you up to the challenge~ Sincerely yours, Brian Peckford, Premier "­ on the Premier's letterhead. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have great pleasure in tabling this because when we tried to bring it up at a time before, it was not the proper place in which to do it,and Mr.

Speaker did not accept that we should tab~e it.But now that my colleagues are so concerned that anything that is quoted be tabled, let it be shown that we have tabled now, it is now in the record -, the letter which the Premier wrote,which he successfully stopped us from tabling right after .. the Bellevue by-election, a position that shows a new low. 7260

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2714 EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: There has never been - we talk about comparing with Premiers in Canada, challenges us to compare him with any other prov .ince. Mr. Speaker, there has never been a Premier in Canada on the eve of a by-election who ever wrote such a blatant blackmail letter, an indication of the attitude of the government, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: What has this got to do with the Budget Speech? MR. STIRLING: You wanted me to table the letter, I tabled it for you. MR. CARTER: What has this got to do with the Budget Speech? MR.

STIRLING: Well, the Budget Speech has to do with the attitude of the government. Mr. Speaker, we have to deal with in the Budget what is the attitude of the government? What is the attitude of the people on that side? We have seen myth number one destroyed here today, Mr. Speaker, myth number one,whiah was put out in all kinds of material, Mr. Speaker: put out here in one case paid for by the member Harbour Main­ Bell Island (N. Doyle). AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) that. MR. STIRLING: No. This one, though, Mr. Speaker, ~ut out in all of the liquor stores, I presume paid for by the government. MR. Yes, it was. MR.

STIRLING: Another one sent out to t~e house- holder called The Challenge - Developing the 80's, The Constitution Act, Hang Tough, Our Christmas Stocking,,sharing among equals, all pieces of propaganda and every one of them referring to this governme~ ~ wanting the right to have a power corridor across Quebec; that that was going to be the solution. Our 7261

June 23, 19£1 Tape No. 2714 EL - 3 f:'IL STIRLING: last c·hance, a gover .nment that brings on, time and time again, the belief that they there is only one chanc ·e, that this government is the only chance. Mr. Speaker, this is the first time that the people of Newfoundland will have seen the government caught in their own propaganda machine. T:l;ley have convinced every Newfoundlander, every Labradorian that the only answer to our problem was if only we could get a power corridor across Quebec. And now, Mr. Speaker, we do not want a power corridor across Quebec anymore, that is not what we really wanted. That was simple. Everybody could understand that in 7262

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2715 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: Newfoundland we had the right to have a power corridor across Quebec. That was something that everybody could understand. MR. TULK: MR. STIRLING: Now he wants Quebec's power corridor. And the Prime Minister said, 'Yes, we can understand it, we agree with it'. When we carne into the constitutional debate,things that were important to Newfoundland, the federal government brought up a Constitution, set up a series of meetings to deal with amendments to the Constitution.

This government took the attitude, we will ignore those committees, we will ignore the federal government and in collusion with eight others, they put forward their proposals for constitutional reform. Now, Mr. Speaker, what are the issues that are important to Newfoundland? And what happened to them under the federal government's constitutional proposals and the provincial government's proposals under the accord? Under the federal government proposals this power corridor across Quebec was settled once and for all, it was clearly said that you could transport services, goods, people across provincial boundaries.

What did the accord say? Nothing, Mr. Speaker. it did not deal with the issue. They abandonee Newfoundland on Quebec's corridors. What did it have to do in the accord with the offshore? Mr. Speaker, as much as the government would dislike the idea,on both sides of this House we are in favour of ownership of the offshore. They do not like it. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is there. They do not like that idea, they want it to be only theirs but it has always been the provincial government's position. Mr. Speaker, where did it come up in the accord, the eight provincial Premiers? Where did the Premier get that in?

He did not put it in, Mr. Speaker, no mention of the offshore, no mention of the fisheries, no 7263

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2715 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: mention of shared jurisdiction. So, Mr. Speaker, this Premier had an opportunity , with his eight other provincial Premiers, to do something in that accord for Newfoundland and there was nothing in it, Mr. Speaker. He abandoned Newfoundland in the accord. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us come back and talk about the budget. MR. HANCOCK: Tell them about Corne by Chance. We ~.,rill soon have that over. One more trip to Ottawa and you will have that over. MR. STIRLING: No, that is a surprise. Do not let them know that yet. MR.

HANCOCK: (Inaudible) did not hear me so .they are safe. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the government's own five year plan tells the truth about their views about Quebec power. They do not really want a power corridor across Quebec; Mr. Speak~r. That is not what they wanted, that is what they put out to the people of Newfoundland because, yes, that sounds like something that everybody can relate to.

What they really want with Quebec is they want somebody else to force Quebec to allow us to use their power system to transport Newfoundland power just in the same way as this government would be very excited about allowing Quebec to use our transmission system. Can you imagine it, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker, in this budget we have seen the government take the gasoline tax,which in this Province is already high enough,and change it to a percentage tax, Mr. Speaker, we have an 11 per cent retail sales tax but on gasoline we now have a 22 per cent retail sales tax.

Everytirne gasoline and oil goes up, Mr, Speaker, the tax will go up and this government benefits from the increase. The government's own plan says that the Province simply does not have the fiscal capacity to deliver the desired level of public services and will not within the five year period. For any substantial improvement 7264

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2715 so - 3 MR. STIRLING : we will have to loo~ beyond 1984. Mr. Speaker, what are the things that are important in this Province that we should be paying attention to? We should be working with Ottawa in so many areas, Mr. Speaker . This business of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) getting up and attacking Nova Scotia, attacking Ottawa, attacking the Fisherme~'s Onion, attacking anyone who comes in sight , simply because everyone has lost confidence in his ability as a Fisheries' 11inister. And, Mr. Speaker, we need a lot more of joint development in this Province . Our whole forestry programme , 7255

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2716 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: the Labrador roads programme, all of the fisheries pro­ gramme, this whole area, Mr. Speaker, needs two govern­ ments. We are acting in a vacuum here in Newfoundland. We are acting as though everything had to come through the provincial government when,by their own admission, their own Five Year Plan says they do not have the ability, they ~o not have the money to be able to bring up the level of services in the next five years. The only way that we are going to be able to develop, Mr. Speaker, is jointly in co-operation with Ottawa. And I would ask you, Mr.

Speaker, in forestry look at the co-operation; 90 per cent of the money being spent in forestry is being spent by the federal government. The whole area of the fisheries; all of the money being spent is federal government money. The offshore development; there is not a nickel except on the staff of the Petro­ leum Directorate. That is the only contribution by the provincial government to the offshore, the staff of the Petroleum Directorate. Mr. Speaker, there is no money being spent anywhere in the offshore development. It is federal money. Mr. Speaker, we have to work together.

We saw in the statement today, again a repeat by this government,that they just could not resist the temptation to have to kick Ottawa in the head on a day in which Ottawa made a tremendous concession, a tremendous concession by giving the rights to Newfoundland to transmit power across Quebec. In every area the Liberal government, the federal Liberal government has shown their willingness to work with the provincial government. But this govern­ ment, Mr. Speaker, cannot work with anyone. They could not work with NAPE, NAPE had to go on a hunger strike to get the 7266

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2716 DW - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: money that they needed. The educators, the teachers - the educators actually had to take a strike vote, they actually had to tell the Pro­ vince they were prepared to go on strike, they had to bring that strike vote in in order to get any kind of negotiations from the Treasury Board.- The fishermen, Mr. Speaker, last Summer were on strike for the whole Summer simply because this government ref"sed to face up to the facts of life and set up a royal commission. The Summer was over before they did it.

All over this Province people are looking for some evidence that the government is concerned about them, concerned about people, concerned about people in senior citizens homes, concerned about people who do not have jobs, who cannot get jobs, people who are living on dirt roads who cannot get even calcium chloride to be used to keep the dust down, a government that has abandoned any kind of an expansion of the pro­ vincial parks sytem. Everywhere where people are involved they have been cut back and cut off, Mr. Speaker.

And there is a general feeling around this Province that the only thing this government is concerned about is what happens here in St. John's and dealing with the offshore oil. A government, -Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave, by leave! MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, this Budget is a Budget that abandons the management of the Province. The government - it is just like the order of business in this House. Mr. Speaker, the Budget was late coming in, The Budget was an Interim supply Bill, unheard of, a three-month Interim Supply Bill. There is business in this House, Mr.

Speaker, that has not even been brought in, that we still have to pass. In Nova Scotia, Mr. 7267

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2716 DW - 3 MR. L. STIRLING: Speaker, they are meeting morning, noon and night in order to pass the business of the House. This government will not meet at night, they are gentlemen and gentlemen 726A

June' 23, 1981 Tape 2717 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: do not have to work at night. They do not work at night, Mr. Speaker, they w~ll not have night sittings of this House. They have decided that they want to pass the legislation without debate. Well, Mr. Speaker, that cannot happen. We are meeting only three hours a day and they want forty pieces of legislation passed, ~orne of which they have not even brought into the House. MR. MARSHALL: Not so. That is not so. MR. -HODDER: Fort y -seven. MR. MARSHALL: _(Inaudible). MR. STIRLING: Oh, is that right? Well, Mr.

Speaker, in that case, if we are only going to debate the ones that have been brought into ·the House, then we have the Order Paper changed considerably because the last check we had we were missing some twenty bills from the Order Paper. ·But that may change. And if we are not going to bring that in then fine, we will not bring it in. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! The hon. Leader has one minute left. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR.

CARTER: (Inaudible) gladly give him another thirty seconds by leave. MR. SPEAKER: That is no point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I said once before, and I will say that history will record,that when they 7268

June 23, 1981 Tape 2717 EC - 2 MRo STIRLING: record the overall impression of this government, it will be one of deception, Mr. Speaker, a government of deception. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Is the House ready for the question on the amendment? Those in favour of the amendment signify by saying 'Aye'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 'Aye' • MR. SPEAKER: Contrary, 'Nay'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: on the main motion? MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: 'Nay'. I declare the amendment lost. Is the House ready for the question Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Grand Bank. Mr.

Speaker, I had not intended to speak on the main motion; however, Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of comments made this afternoon I would like to take the opportunity in the - and, you know, if people really insist, I will speak for thirty minutes if you really want me to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) this afternoon made a statement concerning me .and the amount of time that I spent in the district. I would like to correct it. MR. CARTER: Which was not time. MR. THOMS: There is the same type of comment again.

He also said that he had a group of fishermen in his office who told him that I had not visited the district of Grand Bank since the election back in 1979. MR. MORGAN: No, you have not been seen in the riding. 7270

June 23, 198 1 Tape 2717 EC - 3 MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is one of the greatest when it comes to slinging mud and dirt across the House of Assembly. I suggest 1 before he starts making some of those statements, that he check with some of his colleagues and, if necessary, Mr. Speaker, I will ask Your Honour for an affida-vit. Your Honour knows, because Your Honour ~as in the district ~ith me since the election in 1979. MR. NEARY: I was there too, by the way. MR. THOMS: I will just name you the people on the other side of the House - the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr.

Stewart) was in the district with me since the election in 1979. And, Mr. Speaker, the member for Hwnber West (Mr. Baird) has been in the district with me ·since the election in 1979. I do not know, there may have been others on the other side of the House. But, Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to sit in this House and hear statements and accusations made by the Minister of Fisheries as to when or if not, I visited the district of Grand Bank. And neither do I like to hear that these statements are coming allegedly from fishermen in 7271

~'. June 23, 1981, Tape 2718, Page 1 -- apb MR. THOMS: the district when I know they are not. And if the Minister of Fisheries(Mr.Morgan) thinks that the district of Grand Bank is not in good shape, ifthey happento believe that it is not in good shape from a Liberal Party point of view, then let this administration call an election and see what happens in the district of Grand Bank. The Minister of Fisheries is looking for another district. He is finished in Bonavista South. I do not mind. If he wants to run in the district of Grand Bank,let him run in the district of Grand Bank. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to stand here, and sit here in this House of Assembly and hear accusations made by the Minister of Fisheries,thrown across the House,without challenging them. Because they do not happe~ to be correct. And I do not want to hear it unless ne is prepared to back it up. I am prepared to back it up, I am prepared to back it up with statements from his own colleagues in the House. So, Mr. - Mr. Speaker, I mean, what is this? I have not spoken in the Budget debate. I am entitled to speak for thirty minutes. But I will resist the temptation, Mr. Speaker.

I understand that we have agreed to let the amendment and the main motion go through. I simply wanted to state that wfiat the Minister of Fisheries alleges in·this House, says in this House 99 per cent of the time, is absolute garbage and incorrect. MR. SPEAKER (Si.rrrns): Is the House ready for the nain ItDtion? The :r.ai.:: =ticn is t.'1a.t I do now leave t.'le Chair for the House to resolve it­ self into a Corrrni ttee of Ways and means. signi:'"y by saying ''Aye." S01·1E HON. ;.m.mr:as: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEA.tcr: MR.

SPEAKER: therefore the ItDtion is carried~ 7272 All those in favour of the ITDtion, !' .. j_"'e. Contrary, "Nay." Nay. I declare that the '·Ayes' have it and

~une 23, 1981, Tape 2718, Page 2 -- apb COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon . the member for Conception Bay South. MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Ways and Means have considered the matters to them referred, report progress and a~~ leave to sit-again. On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again, presently, by leave. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) ·I wish to advise that I have received a message from His Honour, the Lieutenant­ Governor. MR. SPEAKER: Please rise for a message from His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. The following message is addressed to the Minister of Finance.

"I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit estimates of sums required for the Public Service of the Province for the year ending 31st. day of March 1~82, by way of further supply and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867, as amended, I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. (sgd)----------------------- Lieutenant-Governor." 7273

June 23, 1981, Tape 2719; Page l -- apo MR. SPEAKER(Simms): the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of Mr. Speaker, I move that the message of His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor be referred to the Committee of Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply to consider the message of His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN{Butt): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I move that the total of the estimates contained in the message of His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor be carried.

Motion, that the total of the estimates contained in the message of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor be carried, carried. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and have passed the amount of $1,029:,485,800 -contained in the estimates of supply, and ask leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again, presently, by leave. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speak .er, I move that the report of the Committee of Supply with respect to the estimates of 1981-82, together with a resolution and a bill consequent thereto,be referred to a Committee of Ways and 7274

June 23, 1981, Tape 2719, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: that you, Mr. -speaker, do now leave the Chair for the purpose of consideration of same. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS RESOLUTION: That is is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1982, the some of one billion twenty-nine million four hundred and eighty-five thousand eight hundred dollars ($1,029,485,800). 3, carried. On motion, resolution carried. On motion, clauses 1 through On motion,

Schedule carried. On motion, a Bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majest y Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thous .and Nine Hundred And Ei.ghty-Two And For Other Purposes Relating To The Publi.c Service" '. (Bill No. 8l)_. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave . to si.t again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. 727S

-, June 23, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Bay South. MR. BUTT: Tape No. 2720 NM - 1 The hon. member for Conception Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and r~port having passed a certain resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to same. On motion, report received and adopted.

On motion, a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year · Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Eighty-Two And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service" (Bill No. 81), read a first, second and third time, by leave, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Order, please!

Motion 2. Motion 2, Bill No. 85. I will just take a moment to get it. Order, please! Bill No. 85. The first to be considered, the resolution. RESOLUTION That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution carry? Mr. Chairman. The hon. _President of the Council. 727R

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2720 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr . Chairman, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) who is presently out of the Province on important public business, I have the duty to introduce the bill that is before the Committee at the present time . Mr. Chairman, this bill is a bill for the purpose of raising the tax on tobacco, and is in accordance with the rates that were set down by the Minister of Finance when he delivered his Budget Speech . It is, Mr.Chairm~ , in concert and in conformity with the Budget Speech, was ful~y explained in the Budget Speech, so I do not propose to go into a detailed analysis of the bill 7277

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2721 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: itself. Instead, Mr. Chairman,it is indicated, for instance , the price of cigars, the new rate will be nine cents and the old rate was seven cents, for instance. And I do not thinR that this is of any great- \'lell, it is of information if the committee wishes it.So I just introduce the bill on behalf of. the Minister of Finance and I will be quite happy, ready, willing and able to answer any questions that hon. members may have with respect to same. However, I will indicate that it is part of the Budget Speech.

I assume that it was a matter that was fully discussed,both in the committees of the House and in the Budget Speech itself. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR.THOMS: Mr. Chairman,! just want to make one point. I would just like to quote the President of the Council (W.Marshall) when he just spoke in connection with this particular bill. And he says, 'this is not to raise the tax on tobacco, to raise the tax on tobacco.' We have another bill bemore this House to raise the tax on gasoline.

Now, I would also like to quote the Premier of this Province during the June, 1979 election. And at that time it was stated that taxes would not be raised in this Province within the first three years of the term of the present Premier and the present administration. But here we have the President of the Council stand up and say that this is

an act to raise the tax on tobacco. I presume that when the gasoline tax comes in, he will stand up and say that this is a bill to raise the tax on gasolinej that when the amendments to the Companies Act come in,where the registration fees are raised for the people who want to register title to property within this 727R

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2721 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: Province, he will stand up and he will say that this is

an act to raise the taxes on the reg­ istration of deeds and mortgages andconveyances, etc. in this Province. And this is in spite of a commitment by this government, by this administration made in June of 1979, a commitment which was accepted in good faith by the people of this Province, a commitment that said that taxe$ would not be raised in the first three years of the term of this adminis­ tration. Now, what a shock, Mr. Chairman, it must be.And I am not talking ~ere about the tax on tobacco. I mean,if you are going to raise the taxes on anything, tobacco is as good a thing as anything to raise the taxes on.

I would like to see the taxes so high that nobody would want to smoke. I have never been convinced of the ill-effects of tobacco on anybody,but there is one thing I know and that it does not do· you any good. Therefore, it is a complete wast of money and it is a habit that most people have which is very difficult to break. So, if you are going to put taxes on,then you might as well put it on tobacco. Gasoline is another matter. Deeds, conveyances, title documents, that is another matter. To put it on the necessities is quite different from putting it on alcohol or from putting it on tobacco.

So, I cannot let this opportunity go past, Mr. Chairman, without reminding the people of this Province, without reminding the thirty-two districts, or thirty-three districts that voted for this Tory administ­ ration, voted for them in good faith, that ever since they have been elected we see promise after promise gone 7279

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2722 ah-1 MR. THOMS: by the wayside. I happen to believe, Mr. Chairman, that promises that are made during elections are promises that politicians, that governments, that administrations should keep. If they cannot keep them, Mr. Chairman, then they should not be made. And that is why I hold Mr.Trudeau to the statement that he made at the university about the benefits of offshore oil and gas in this Province, about the principle control being in the hands of this Province.

It was a commitment that was made prior to and during the 1980 federal election in this country and any watering down of that position I take exception to. I also take exception to the Premier of this Province, to this administration. And bel'ieve it or not, although sometimes you wonder, there is a collective responsibility. D~es not the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) ,does she not feel for all.the people who were fooled during the 1979 election when the Premier promised that there would be no raise in taxes? How about the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the Minister of Health (Mr.

House), the Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands (Mr. PovJer) ~ How about the President of the Council himself? Nobody ever doubts, nobody would ever doubt, would dare to doubt the integrity or the intellectual honesty of the President of the Council. Nobody would dare doubt the integrity or the intellectual honesty of the Premier of this Province. So what happens? A promise is made , maybe more than any other promise , that got the Tories elected in this Province on June 18,1979, and that promise was that there would he n0 raise in taxes durin" t:hP. first three years. But that promise, Mr.

Chainran, as we can see, is gone by the board, it is gone by the board. And apart from this we have had other 72Bn

June 22,1981 Tape No. 2722 ah-2 MR. THOHS: raises in taxes. Every time the budget is brought in we have raises in taxes. In June of 1979, the Premier of this Province promised the people of this Province that the Corne By Chance oil refinery would be open within 90 days. The people of this Province are still waitinq for that promise to be kept. The people of this Province _ e~ tiDE a tax bill comes before this House, the people of this Province should feel let down. I am sure it is not the first time it has happened. It may not be the last time it '1-.i.ll happen.

But promises should not be made by peple seeking office unless there is a reasonable chance and they reasonably believe that those promises can be kept. Now, there has never been one more flagrantly voided than this particular promise that was made in June of 1979. And instead of sitting there smiling, laughing at the people of this Province, sneeringat the people of this Province, the Premier should be hanging his head in shame. Mr.

Chairman, it is just no ·t tobacco, it is just not alcohol, it iust not title documents that the people have to register, !'ut the cost of living in this Province is getting to the point now where people cannot exist any longer. I understand that across Canada,on an average,there are 1000 homes being lost every month - with payments are doubling.

Those vrho were paying less than $200 on a rnortgacre payrner"- the interest rates on mortgages today - mortgages becornina mature, they are being rernortgaged, renegotiated at a higher ·~rice, higher interest rates - they are doubling, and a mortgage payment of $150 has now gone up to $400 and people are finding that they cannot 7281

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2723 DW - 1 MR. L. THOMS: make the payments. There are an awful lot of averaqe Newfoundlanders right throughout this Province, Mr.Chairman, who are paying mortgage payments of $600 or $700 a month. Once the term on these mortgages become due,then in order to save their homes, they are ~ing to have to pay in excess of $1,000 a month, $12,000 a year. There are very few, Mr. Chairman, there are very few New­ foundlanders who can afford that kind of a payment together with the payment for food and clothing, telephone, and light.

How anybody in this Province can afford to smoke today is beyond me anyway. And, as I said 1 I sincerely hope that the day will come when there is.so much taxes on tobacco that we will be forced to give up smoking all together. But in the meantime,it does not excuse the Premier of this Province making these election promises in June of 1979 and then,without any apologies,the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) introduces a bill on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) saying that this is

an Act - and these are his words - 'This is

an Act to raise the tax on tobacco' • Now .. I. along with everybody else in Newfoundland, thought that this was a phrase that we were not going to here during the first three years of the present admini­ stration's term. That no longer for that three years would the Minister of Finance be getting up and saying that we are going to raise the taxes on this or we are going to raise the taxes on that. I would have assumed that the Premier and this admi~istration would have come in here and would have said that, 'We are going to honour our commitment made in June and we are not going to raise taxes'.

But we have, I do not know how many tax bills on the Order Paper. Mr. Chairman, I will vote against these tax bills. I will vote against these tax bills because I consider them a betrayal of the faith of the 7282

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2723 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: Newfoundland people in this administration. They have been betrayed by the Premier and by this administration,- the promises made and the promises not kept. Now, Mr. Chairman, the people of Newfoundland deserve better than this. They deserve much better than this. They do not deserve to be betrayed by this administration and this is exactly what these tax bills are doing and I will not support any tax bills on that basis. Now, there are some I will not support as a matter of princiPle.

I will not support the one amending the Conveyancinq Act to raise the fees on registering-title documents. Because there only a certain section,reall~ of society is being hit, the people who can ill-afford it, the people are paying $65,000 fo~ a three bedroom bungalow. The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) knows how much that same house cost - •-1hat? - fifteen or sixteen years agc;.Nhen I articled with the learned gentlemen, you could buy that house for $18,000 or $20,000. Today, fifteen years later_.that same house costs $65,000. Young people in this Province can no longer afford a home.

The dream home for a young couple in Newfoundland is out of the question. It is gone! It is finished! They are relegated - MR. J. MORGAN: It is because of high interest rates. MR. L. THOMS: It is not because of high interest rates. It is not because of high interest rates. But they are relegated to apartment living for the rest of their lives. And what is even worse, Mr.

Chairman, is that the majority of t.'lose people are relegated not just - they cannot afford the apart­ ments on Lakeview Avenue, they cannot afford the apartments in on Kennedy Road or Logy Bay Road or Prince Philip apartments, they cannot afford the Regency Towers, Mr. Chairman, they are relegated to second-class living accomodations, 'they are 7283

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2724 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: relegated to basement apartments because that is all that they can afford. And here we now, one of the few pleasures that many of us have left, havinq that being taxed. Registration of title d=nents being taxed, gasoline being taxed and,you know, where does it end, Mr. Chairman? Where does it end? I mean,how far do we go? How far do we drive the people? I am afraid that we are just on the brink of driving them too far. And there is going to be, there has got to be a re-thinking. We have to re-think our whole pos­ ition.

We have to re-think about where we are taxing and who we are taxing. Because with most of the tax bills that cane before this House, who is being hit? Who is being hit? It is the low-income and the middle-income earner in this Province. Mr. Chairman, I realize my ten minutes are up. I am sure there will be somebody else speakin9" and I ¥rill be able to carry on. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The bon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Chairman, with regard to the tax on tobacco, when we find taxes going up in this Province· all the time, in each Budget it is always - whether it is the Fed­ eral or Provincial government, they always put tax on tob­ acco. I, myself being a non-s~oker, do not particularly mind as it does not hit me. But what I am concerned about is the attitude where we keep raising the cost of tobacco because it is considered a luxury.

But what I would like to see this government - there is no question that tobacco is being linked to lung cancer. ev~n though people in our Province say that an old gentleman or an old lady ended up smoking all their lives and do not die of cancer so it is 7284

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2724 EL - 2 MR. HISCOCl<: all foolishness so therefore it is not linked with cancer. What I would like to see this Prov­ incial Government in taking the tax on tobacco, infroduce it to an education programme. The Minister of Education (L.Verge) spoke in this House that she is rather concerned about the number of young girls in our schools now who are smoking for the first time. It is almost becoming of epidemic proportion of our young­ er students, younger girls in this Province who are taking to smoking. There is another question, also, Mr.

Chairman, that tobacco smoking is an _addictive, it is a drug and therefore we need a programme developed by the Department of Health to address this problem. We cannot look at tobacco and alcohol as a means of raising revenue for this Province of ours if we do not get into the preveRtative aspect of it. And I find, Mr. Chairman, that we only compound the issue even more, that we have to pay more in the long run for health costs because of cancer and other related lung problems. We also have to pay more with regard to our habit and lifestyles.

I would like to see, as I said, the government take so much 0f this tax, pqt it on to education in the schools, put is on to health, the preven­ tative aspects, getting into jogging, getting into the right nutrition food and that, Mr. Chairman. Or I would like to see the Provincial Government take some of this money from the tobacco tax and al­ cohol and create a job programme for students of this Province , uhat the majority of the students in this Province cannot get jobs as a result of the economy. And because of this, Mr.

Chair­ man, if it was not for the Federal Government youth job programme creation, most of the students in this Province, Mr. Chairman, would not be working and as a result they would find it rather hard to go on with post-secondary education. 7285

...... June 23, 1981 Tape No . 2724 EL - 3 MR. HISCOCK: I have said it in thi's House , and I said it even before I was elected to thi s House , that this government has to come up with a student job programme for our younger people . That the price of our tuition is going : UP all the time . The price of housing i s going up al l the time with regard to students. It is almost impossible now £or student~ to afford an apartment in this city of ours. which not only is the capital but is also the major educat ­ ional centre for this Province .

And I would like to see so much of this tax go towards - I do not think that the people in this Province mind paying extra sales tax even though it is eleven cents , or tax on tobacco, tax on alcohol, but we would like to know where it goes. We do not particularly like the idea that it goes in general revenue and that it goes to pay for 7286

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2725 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: revenue and then it goes to pay for the house on Mount Scio. We do not particularly like to see that raise on taxes go to pay for The Rounder. Basically it is almost as bad as a political machine that the Conservatives accuse the Liberals of MR. NEARY: MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. HISCOCK: in The Ne\vfoundland Herald in - The Newfoundland Bulletin cost $100,000 - - with reqard to that, Mr. Chairman - - and the Rounder cost $200,000. - I think, ~·lr.

Chaiman, with regard to the tax, we are having taxes, Thereis no question that when the Conservative government took over this administration back in the early '70s, the country was going to go bankrupt under Mr. Smallwood, according to ~~r. Moores and Mr. Crosbie. We had $750 million and we built the Province and what ~re have now is a result of that. Now in ten years, Mr·. Chairman, we see the debt going to $3.5 billion. MR. NEARY: $700 million and we were bankrupt. MR.

HISCOCK: This is why we are penny pinching, this is why we needan extra two cents on cigars, this is why we need to raise the licences, this is why we need to raise the rabbit and moose hunting licences, this is why we need to put - and I think it is the worse one of all, and this administration said it would never bring in taxes within three years, to index a tax on gasoline. It is unbelievable! And the people in my district are now - and we know that the National Energy Board and the Premier want to go to world prices sooner than we are now.

If we are going to be doing that, we know what the price of gasoline is going to be in four years from now, it is going to double - $2.00 now down on the coast, it is going to be $4.00 in the future and here this government is going to get more revenue as a result of indexing the gasoline tax. But I am saying that we are penny pinching. We are trying to get two cents here, we are trying to get two cents there and,basically,whether 7287

'< June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2725 SP - 2 MR. HISCOCK: the country is on the verge of bankruptcy , which I firmly believe-and that . is why we see all the construction companies going bank .rupt and all the private businesses in this Province going bankrupt this year. And if it was not for some coastal Labrador DREE agreements and forestry agreements and other DREE relatedprogrammes, this country itself, the Province, would not necessarily go bankrupt but I can tell you this, the construction companies and vari .ous other related industries would go and are going belly up.

But I would like to see this Province take a more aggressive attitude and, if we are going to pay two cents on tobacco here and so much on gasoline,that we have to get into a better quality of looking after our money. We cannot spend $150 million on the drilling of a tunnel down in the Straits of Labrador, in the Strai t.s on t:Qe Northern Peninsula, to spend $150 million and to waste it. We cannot convert - the linerboard mill was supposed to go for chips but the Province here decided on bringing logs down from Goose Bay 1 the former Minister of Finance for the federal government, Mr.

Crosbie, a.s well as the Province here, We cannot see the continued mismanagement of the resources and this is wha ,t we have seen for the past ten years. We have not only seen an increase on gasoline each ti .me, we have not only seen an increase on liquor and various . other related so-called luxuries. But, Mr. Chairman,it is done from the point of view that the country is being mismanaged financially and the President of the Council (~r.

Marshall) cannot in any way question that.If t'J.e Liberals were in for the past ten yea,rs and spent the same amount of money, then I am sure . that the president of the Council would be getting up and saying that it is mismanagement .And there is no question, Mr. Chairman, that this is related. So, I would like to see this Province get into Summer job creation. I would lik.e to see the Minister of Health lMr. House) spend more on preventative measures 72BA

June 23, 1981 Tape No . 2725 so - 3 MR. HISCOCK: I would like to see the Minister of Social Services (r-Ir. Hickey) spend more. And here we see a waste of money that was done by the Depar~ent of Education. This is the mismanagement, the mismanagement of spending money on public opinion polls, the mismanagement of calling contracts - letting contracts without tenders. The 728~ .!

June 23, 1981 Tape 2726 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: past ten years is total mis- management and we are continuing to have mismanagement.

And again, if it were not for our part as equal Canadians in the Canadian family and the amoun~of money that we are receiving from Ottawa as equal Canadians, not as a handout but as Canada wanting to see each area of Canada from sea to sea built up in this nation of ours and continue to make the progress that we are making in the world of showing other countries the idea of pulling together, of co-operating and the idea of using the tax base, if we are going to have a tax base to make sure that we have a certain amount of revenue to go to the low incomes.

That is why Medicare was brought in by the Liberal Government, that is why unemployment insurance was brought in by the Liberal Government, that is why old age pension and youth allowance and Canada Pension was set up and that is why Petro-Canada and various other great Liberal reform programmes were set up.

I always like to stress this because every time I say that whether it is in my district - where there is very little criticism in that way - but in other "parts of the Island they always say, 'Oh, those benefits would come anyway: unemployment insurance would come anyway, old age pension would have come anyway, Medicare would have come anyway. It is not true. They would not have come. They were Liberal reforms, they were Liberal philosophy, and it would have taken a Liberal Government to bring them in. And we on .ly saw briefly when Mr. Clark and Mr.

Crosbie had the Conservative Government that they were going to do away with Petrocan and also that they were going to allow the doctors to opt out of Medicare and destroy Medicare. They were also going to do away with the Canada employment project for the work. 729(1

June 23, 1981 MR. MARSHALL : MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Tape 2726 EC - 2 On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Order, please! Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is really not being relevant. I mean, not only is he not talking about tobacco taxes, but he is talking about Medicare and matters within the purview of the federal government. MR. HISCOCK: MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. To the point of order, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Chairman, I think it is quite relevant that taxes on tobacco relate to health and as a result of health problems we have to pay more Medicare costs. If we, as a Province, are allowed to opt out of Medicare,and doctors,then we not only need to see an increase in Medicare but we need to see an increase in extra tobacco costs to pay for that Medicare. MR. CHAIRMAN: With respect to the point of order, the Chair has allowed a fair degree of flexibility to the han. member speaking, but I would like to point out, for the sake of making some progress,that we are discussing the Resolution to Bill No. 85, which is

An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act,and I would ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to that. The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, in concluding, I would like to see a more discriminative way of spending our money. If we are going to tax our people,then I do not think we as a Province can stand for mismanagement, that we should have a health programme related to the negative effects of smoking and we have to get this into the schools as well as into the communities. And for this, Mr. Chairman, I will vote against this increase because 7291

June 23, 198 1 Tape 2726 EC - 3 MR. HI SCOCK: the government is not doing this, the government is putting it into general revenue and paying for other mismanagements in the past. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! A bill, "An Act To Amend 'l'he Tobacco Tax Act, 1978," (Bill No. 85}. Motion that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. Motion 3, Bill No. 86, 'An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act, 1978." Th .e hen. the President of the council. MR. MARSHALL: Once again, Mr.

Chai.Dran, this is a bill in conformity with the decision that was made in the budget, regrettably, as it turned out, to have to raise the gasoline tax. The gasoli,ne tax, Mr. Chairman, has been raised and p.laced ori an ad valorem basis the same way as in all provinces except Alberta and Nova Scotia. As we all know, Alberta has been lucky enougq to have neither gasoline nor sales tax. 729 2

June 23. 1981 Tape 2727 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Well, it works on a percentage of the price. The percentage rates of gasoline will be 22 per cent of the average retail price less the tax. This is the way it works. This is the way it is set up. MR. BARRY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. MARSHALL: Twenty-two percent? Yes. And, Mr. Chairman, this is now, you know, the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) in the previous debate indicated, and I just want to say this because the point has to be made again, and I know he will probabl~ get up again and talk about the government not keeping with its promises that it made during the election. But the fact of the matter is that this government did not say, never said, at no time said there would be no increases in taxes. What the hon. the Premier said during the election, that election that the hon. members there opposite will remember so well and so, you know, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR.

MARSHALL: - as the people of Newfoundland will remember so well, he said and I quote, "The new Progressive Government under my leadership will not introduce any increases in provincial sales tax: in provincial sales tax. This is not,~tr. Chairman, an increase The provincial sales tax is levied under The Retail Sales Tax Act, n~er one. MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: Or personal income tax or corporation taxes .that is not levied under this Act, Mr. Chairman. It was not levied under this Act at the time on small businesses during the term of its mandate . As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, this government has kept its commitment to the people of this Province. It has kept, and it will continue to keep ,its commitment to the people of this Province not just for the ensuing term but for the next three or four 7293

June 23, 1981 MR. MARSHALL: back in government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): MR. THOMS: What a cop out. MR. HANCOCK: MR. THOMS: MR. HANCOCK: MR. MARSHALL: MR. HANCOCK: MR. THOMS: Tape 2727 PK - 2 terms,when it is re-elected and its Hear, hear! The hen. member for Grand Bank. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Yes, what a cop out. What a cop out. That is a good one that is. No wonder he is leaving the Chamber. I can figure that one out. Mr. Chairman, what we have is the man s~ying that the ~brent was made that the retail sales tax MR. HANCOCK: MR. THOMS: would not go up. MR. HANCOCK: MR.

THOMS: Is not going to go up. - in the Province of Newfoundland That is right. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is inaccurate. That is misleading the people of this Province. MR. HANCOCK: Hear, ·hear! MR. THOMS: Because, Mr. Chairman, as the price of goods go up in this Province so does the retail sales tax, so does - not the percentage but the amount that is collected and goes into the Provincial Treasury of this Province, it goes up and up and up- MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) with that one. 'Eirian'. MR.

THOMS: - and up according to the increase in the cost of living,according to the increase-every time a pound of bologna goes up the people in this Province,instead of paying 11 per cent of 40 cents a pound - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: -they are now paying 11 per cent of $1.80 a pound. So the retail sales tax does,in fact,go up 7294

..u... } June 23, 1981 Tape 2727 PK - 3 . MR. THOMS: and it is incorrect, and it is inaccurate, and it is misleading, and it is a Tory lie for anybody on that side of the House to stand in this House to say that the retail sales tax in this Province is not increasing. Of course, it is increasing. Just look at what the retail sales tax meant to the government of this Province four years ago . or three years ago 1 and look at the ·amount they are collecting in retail sales tax today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh., oh! MR. THOMS: BecauseJas I said,every time the price of an

article goes up then the cost goes up. Correspondingly there is 11 per cent, and 11 per cent of $1.00 is less than 11 per cent of $2.00. Now.the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) might have difficulty MR. HANCOCK: Oh, yes. MR. TKOMS: - recognizing that or under- standing that,because we saw an ample display of the minister's trying to reason mathematics sometime ago in this House. Now, Mr. Chairman, what do we have, what does Bill No. 86 do? MR. TULK: (Inaudible) • MR. THOMS: What does Bill No. 86 do?

No longer are the people of this Province paying nineteen cents on a gallon of gasoline,or twenty cents on a gallon of gasoline, but the people of this Province are now paying 22 per cent on the price of gasoline. that the Premier of Now, Mr. Chairman, is it any wonder 7295

June 23, 1981 Tape No. 2728 IB-1 MR. THOMS: this Province is in Alberta hobnobbing with the oil shieks of Alberta and advocating that the price of gasoline go to 75 per cent or 85 per cent of the world prices or the Chicago prices. MR. HANCOCK: MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: Shame, shame, shame! Is it any wonder? Poor old Newfoundland! MR. THOMS: Because we now have a situation where, as the price of gasoline increases, so does the amount that goes into the provincial Treasury. And it is no longer nineteen cents added to a gallon of gasoline,whether a gallon of gasoline is a dollar or two dollars,but it is 22 per cent.

Now, Mr. Chairman, that 22 per cent is a retail sales tax on gasoline. The Premier - the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) read his statement - the Premier says that there will be no increase in the retail sales tax in this Province during the first three years of his administration. So how does he get around it? That is a sales tax, that is a retail sales tax. How does he get around it? He takes the twenty cents that is on a gallon of gasoline and says no longer are you charged nineteen cents or twenty cents per gallon provincial taxes, we are now going to charge you 22 per cent.

That is a retail sales tax. That was a breach. Even if you took the Premier's announcement prior to the 1979 election, even if you took that and confined it only to the retail sales tax, it has gone up. Now most people did not take it to mean only retail sales tax, it meant no raises in taxes. And I am sure the member for F