VOL. l PRELIMINAR~ UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMaLY FOR THE PSRIOO: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m~ TUESDAY, MOVEMBER 27, 1979 NO. 38

•• ovec.Le: Z 7 , 19 79 ... Y: - l ':he '"-o'.!Se rr.e.t. at 3:00 r.1· .• aa • .5?~a: (SI:l.'1S) Orc!er, _;:;laase! HR. SP£Ai'.:Z?.: 'l:he hen. :::err.ter for LaPdile. question to t..,e :1inister of Finance, Sir, in connecuon ·,.;i t...'1 any nec;:otions t .. h.at may be going on wit:...~ E.RCO to t.rJ to re-open t,;1e contract wit...._. C.P.CO for t..1.e stwsic!izar.ion of t.J.;,e pO'<Oer for t:.~at COli".~a.nJ •. n.'t. SPl.i~F..: The hon. !tin.ist:.er of r:.nance. les, !·lr. Spea.i-;er, t.'lere have l:::aen negot.iat;ions.

I think the last face to face :teetinq · .. as al?proxi1:1ately a montn a.go and this has s.!.nce Oeen followed Utl by communic:at:.ions ::q let'l:er. •".?... 5 , NEARY : :"'..R. SF~R: La.Poile. M? ... 5. :iE.ii.?.Y; A supplement.a..ry, Hr. Spe"er. A supplw:ne.nta.ry, the non. me~r.ce.r for Hr. Sj?eaker, could e.'te b.on. gentle:.an infom the ttouse if his ciepa..rtment nas cione a cost a.na.lysi$ st:.udy to see what the a.ctua.l revenue is to the t-,asur1 as cctt.pared to what is paid out for t..'1.e subsiciy"Z MR. SP~R: The hen. :U.n.i..s"t.er of Finance. CR. J. COLLINS ;. Hr.

Speaker, no, the r:..epart:!'ent of Finance ha.s not done so and the reason wh%' the Depart.ment of Finance has not done so is that this, I believe 1 is under the aeqis of the oepartment of Industrial Development. MR. S, NE.AitY: A fina.l supplementar.t, Hr. Spea..lter. UR. SPE~R: .\ final suppleee.ntar~ 1 t..~e hon. ttet\ber for La..E-oi.le followed by the hon. t\Sll'..ber for Bonavi.sta North. 34'10

<•ovember 27, 1979 '!aE=e ~~o. 1:386 Qt.; - 2 :1r. S.pe.a.ker, .... ot:.ld tile a-.inister ir..:.ica-:.e ~het..~er or not tRCO have volunt:~/ weci~ec ~o increase their price tor electricity to ~ewfoundl~~d hydro base~ on ~~e hyCro ~roCuc~d at aay ~· tspoir? !-Ut. SPEAXZP. (S!."'.!·!Sl: ':he h.on. !Unister of Finance. DR. J. COU.!!~S: :-u:.

Speaker, I t..'tink t.."le company has suggested '-"!.ere cay nave been some dedication of the •1y::.ro at aa~· d' Espoir to t.~e company's use but tilat is not our position. y;e can find no evider.ee that e.~t is so, so Chat any inereue i.r. e.,_e ?rice of hydro elac~ie power to e.~e eo~~an 1 .... culd not necessarily have anything ~o do · . .-ith the cost: of :;:reducing at Say d' Esr;oir. !':. would l::.e more relaeed - ! a::t not saying it .... auld be the same but it would. Oe more related to 1:.."le total system cost. .Jl.tt. SPEAKI::R: Tne hen. merr.ber for aonavista Norti.1 • MR. t..

STIIU.IJ:lG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a 'iuestion for t.~e f':e.sident of the CoWlcll {11::. :u.rshall) in the absence of the :iinJ.ster of Justice (}l.r. Ottenheir.:er) • It is a question t."lat ariseS bec:ause ! could not get an answer from either t.~e Auditor General or any of the officials, and. it has to' d.o witil ':.ile Auditor General 1 S repor.:. .,..hich was tabled Februar; 1979, dealing nit.h t!le :tear enCJ.ng aarc:.."l 1978.

The Auditor General. in t:..'la.e. repore, deali.nq with paragrac-h Sl, says, "The Public Tender Act. 1974 1 was apparantl:r· contravened wit.~ the knowledge of senior officials of e.~e department"; &nd ?aragrafh S2, "Th.e Public Tender Act, 19741 was contravened". The question I would l.!.ke to ask now to the President of the Council is: has 1:..1.e government ta.ken any action to either lay charges or investigate whether or not charqas should be laid in c:onneetion with the Audi.tor General's report~ 3471

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1387 ,... - l The hon. Presiden~ of the Cc~~cil. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member ·.would like eo be more specific. I mean he just referred to paragraphs 32 and 54 of the Auditor General's Report. t do not know what specific instance he is referring to, so if he wants to be :nore specific. But I do not ~~ow what he means. rtlso, perhaps,he could be a bit more specific about what he ~ans by charges. !!I.R.. SPEAKER: Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: A supplemeneary, the hen. member !or Thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker, well ~~is is by way of clarification, with leave from tb.e other side. He asks me - MR. SPEAKER: Bonavista Nor~~. MR.

STIRLING: A supplementary, the hon. member for In dealing with the Auditor General's Report 1 it has to do with project:. number two, the reference is, "!n March 1977, the qepart=tent invited bids f=om two contrac'ters for the crushing of 20,000 tons of class~A"gravel and stockpiling at ~hree levels on ~~e Avalon Peninsula. 11 Public tenders were not called' The infor:nat:.ion that ~~e President said was the Public Tender Ace 1974,was apparently contravened with the knowledge of senior officials of the depar-:mene. And. the question was asked of the Public Accounts Committ.ee, Mr.

Speaker, as to who would ta.Jce the action. T.he minister, who was the wit:ness, said that he had not referred it to the Deparem.ene of Justice. The department. officials said they had not referred it. '!'he Auditor General said he had not referred it, a.nd in a public statement said, after hearing the minister's comments 1 he felt that he had not changed his opinion and his opinion was as is stated here, a.nd his opinion stated here was ~~e Public Tender Act was contravened.

The question z am asking the President. is, I believe the government is responsible for justice in this Province a.nd in view of the fact ~~at everybody has now said publicly that:. it has not been referred, 3472

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1387 NH .... 2 would t:.~e ?xesider.t of the Council ind.icat.e whether or not the government intends to take any action on the advice of these senior officials? MR. SPEAKER {SU:!tts) ' MR. MARSHALL' The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, look this is the same question t."lat has come up - it nas becocne a political football kicked around from day ~ .:iay and from week to week by the hon. gentlemen there opposite. M.R. STIRLING: MR. SPEA.Ia:R:. .aonavista Horth. KR. STIRLING: The situation wit:.h respect to that particular matter - A point of order.

A point of order, the hon. men:t.ber for ! believe those comments about a political football being kicked around are tmpa.rlia.mentary and have to be wit.'\drawn. SOH£ HON. MEMBERS' MR. STAGG: in this House. Oh, oh! 'dhat a place to be playing politics, MR. SPEAKER: Ooes anybody else wish to speak to the point of order? If not I would rule that there is not a PQint of order in t.his particular case. That expression has bean used on many occasions. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, 3473

NOVember 27, 1979 Tape 1368 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: I did no't. say "The hen. member was a political football'~,! said, "He was kicking a political foot:ball, and he is kicking a dead cat as well. The situaeion with respect to The Public Tender Act, that:. particular ttatt:er is: now under considuaeion, first of all, by The Public Accounts Committee of which the hen. gentleman is a member, and as such he knows the facts themselves.

The Public Te."l.der Act to which reference has been made anti reference is being :nade from time to time by many of the hon. gentlemen there opposite who were in a government at a time when there was no such thing as public tenders because they were too busy shovelling the conttact:.s out through the ba.ck d0<:1r to their favourite sons - SOME HCN. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. l-'J\RSHAL.L: Mr. Speaker, the situation with respect to that Public Tender Act is that it is one of the strongest Public Tender Acts in canada. It is st::onger - J\N HON. MEMB£Jt: MR. MARSHALL: That. is nee what the Auditor General says.

I d.o not:. care what the Auditor General says or what any other member says. SCME HON. ME.!o'.BERS: Oh, oh! MIL SPEA!Qm (SW.MS): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: And with respect- MR. SPEAKER: The hen. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: As to whether or not charges have been laid, you know, there are innuendoes with respect to that. Any charges that would be laid. against public officials in connection with any conduct that had occurred. in the course of the exercise of their duties would be taken under the cri..m.inal Code, if such circumstances warranted it.

Now, if the hon. gentleman is ma.k.inq allegations of criminality against bon. members perhaps he might like to explain. But as far as the Department of Justice is concerned, if there has been a :nist:.ake in jud.9ment, which we do not know whether cr not there has been, this is a mal:.ter 3474

November 27, 1979 Tape 1388 PK - 2 for det:e_~L~ation; it has been a mistake !<'"'. Marshall: in juclgm.ent:. Sut:. we have had no indication what:.soever, not one iot:.a of ind.icat:.ion that there has l::leen crimina.lity on anybody' s part. And if the hen. gentleman, I say, wishes to make an allegation to that ef£ect or to lay a charge 1 the Department of Justice would look into it on that basis.

But I would caution the hon. gent.leman from making a political football out of things and to cast innuendoes on persons who may be perfectly i.:mocent, :nay have acted, you know, contrarz to the provisions of a cert:.ain Act, but wit:.hout any int:.ent, what. have you, or any intent:.ion to cottmit a misdemeanor and a c:ime. And I think it is time that c.his ca.na.rd was laid to res'C once and for all. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. SPEl\!CER ($II<MS), A new question, the hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle, followed by the hen. member Por-e au Port. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Wel11mine is not a supplementary. I wUl have, I think, some. I do not want to get into a political ciiatribe such as the hen. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) just got into. I find it inte.rest:Ulg that the House has not been allowed to debate this infamous conduct, and I may say the infamous speech of the bon. gentleman opposite. My question, Sir, is this, it grows ou~ of the same two paragraphs, Paragraph 51 a..nd Paragraph 52 of the Auditor General's Report for the year ended Jl, March~ 1978.

And I want to ask. the minister if he will tell us, please, simply what action the government have taken wieh respect to the statements made by the AucU.tor General? And. ! make no allegations , nor , I think, to be fair, did my learned han. friend for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling), but ! would 3475

~iovember 27,1979 Tape so. lJS9 AH-l simply repeat for ~~e benefit of the House t:.at in these two paragraphs the Auditor General, a senior,independent, inpartJ.al servant of this House, !las given his considered opinion t.1ut in the two instances on which he reported in some detail the Public Tender Ac:t was contravened. flow, Sir, the government CJ£ this ProVince is responsible for the administration - .:om. STAGG: It is a speech • MR.

RJBER'l'S: And if it is a speech let it be one and let bon. g'entlemen opposite remember that the government of this P't'ovince Ar1! responsible for the administration of the laws of this Province. MR. STAGG: Intervene, Mr. Speaker. MR. RQS:£R'l"S~ And Mr. Speaker needs no direction from the hen. gentleman from Stephenville (Mr.Stagq) MR.SPEAJCER• (Sili'I!IS) MR .!O!JB£JI:rS ' Order, please! I£ the hen. qentle=an from Stephenville (Mr.Staqg) has a point of order let him raise it. MR.SPEM:FR: {Simms) If the bon. member hu a question ask it please. MR.ROSEttTS: Tha:nk you.

I am phrasinq :ny question as best I can and I know , Your Honour, will not hesitate to intervene if Your Honour t.i.inks that I need tO be intervened. with res~'!et of I would simply say that the qove.rnment are responsible for the administration of the laws in t..~s Province. We have a Public Tender Act which may or may not be a good one. We vill talk about that at the appropriate ti:ne.

The Auditor General baa made some statements indicatinq that the Public Tender Act has been contravened and I loi'Ould ask the minister if he would be kind enouqh., please, to tell us what action the qovernment have taken in response to those t:wo statements made by the Aad.itor General? MR. SP'EAX:tP.: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, the immediata ac:tion wh.ic.~ this government has taken has been 1 in the first instance, to establish a 3476

November 27,1979 Tape No. lJB9 AH-2 MR.MAPSHALL: functional I?u.blie Accounts Couunittee to whic..~ ':he Auditor General makes his repon. 'l'he Auditor General gives his impression, such as he has given in these t"AIO paragraphs. It is a matter t:.'len of debate and consideration before the Commitue and t.i.en as a result of this debate, then ~~e whole operation of government insofar as it pertains to the particular instances involved is open to Public spectation and pub lie enquiry. Mlt.M!BERTS: )11!., SPEJW:R: (Sl.mms) Belle Isle. MR.POBERTS: A supplementary. The hon.

Nmber for the Strait of I thank the hen. qen tleman, .and again I regret we are not allowed to get into debate. His answers are argumentative and etftinently debatable but t.."lere will be an opportunity. I would ask the hen. gentleman whether the government have sought legal advice in respect of these statements made by the Auditor General and, if so,whether any action has been taken with respect to that legal advice? MR.SPEAICER: 'I'he hen. President of the Council. Mlt.MARSHALL: I am not at th.is point in time able to answer that question, Mr.

Speaker, but I will say this, that any questions such as this as to whether or not the government has acted on the stateants made by the Auditor General, will have to await the outcome of the present deliberations and report of the present sessions of the Publlc Aec:ounts Committee. And if t.~e Public Aecounts Committee comes in with a report that requires further enquiry 3477

Novembe4 27, 1979 Tape 1390 z:c - l - and I say 'if' because that is a big if, so let us not say vhen the Public Accounts but if the Public Accounts Commit:eee comes in, then at that point in time it will be con.sidH:ede aut I vould suqqest., Mr. Speaker, to the House, that we would be and.cipatinq the report of th.a Public Aceounts CoDIIlit.tee to pursue at thi.s partic:ula.r time. I man, there have been no a.lleqat.ions, tor instance, of eriminallt:y or anytb.ing like that in t:.h.e Auditor General-'s report, which would be a different thi.nq. MR. ROBER'!'S : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, MR.

SPEAKER: (Simms) d. final supplementary, the hon, Ule member fbr the Strait of Bella Isle , MR.. ROSER:l'S; Mr. Speaker, given t.~at the raper-: is ma.de to the House of Assembly and not to the Public: Accounts Co=ni.ttee, and qiven that the reference of t..~e report to t.,_e Public: Accounts Committee does not preeluda any fu..rther action - the Public Accounts CoUIID.ittee is not a daviee for muz:linq, I know 'tl1'f learned fri.end would aqrae - might I a.sk 11.tf han. friend, the Government House IAarier, (M.r.

Marshall), whether t.,e qovel:l'lme.nt are prepared to retain outside counsel, an independen-: speeial prosecutor, with a. viev to qivinq the government an opinion to detenti.ne whether or not the Aud.i tor General's opinion ia corract: and. that there have been breaches ol the statutes of th.is Province? And I ask that in a.ll ca.ndour and a.ll straiqhtforwa.ranass, becau.sa I know. full well, Mr, Speaker, that:. the hone gentleman from St. John's Eaat (Mr.

Marshall) has fat..,ered. the Public Tendering Act and considers it, I think with a maa.sure of justification, to .pe one of the achievements of his career, a.t least: to d.&ta, in public Ufa. And here we have a ca.sa where - let me say a.qain, let me put i.t in perspecti:ve, Mr. Speaker - that the Aud.it:.or General, doinq his duty, has said tha-: in his opinion - and he states the reasons for his opinion - that t..,e Public: Tandarinq Act has been breached.

Now, the Public: Accounts Co:mn.i. t.Ue 'llill c:orae to their own ::::one.J.usions, a.nci so th.ey should, after hearing whom they wish and 1Mki.nq what inwstiqations they wish, but that. C.Oes not a.bsol ve the governmane of t:hei.r responsibility to respond. 3478

Uovetnber 2 7, 19 79 Tapa 1.390 EC - :Z MR. ~BER'l'S: So I a.sk rrry han. friend whet.."ler t.lte ;ove:mment are prepared

U) retain an outside counsel, as t."ley did, for example, in the case of- they retained, I believe., Mr. John Robinette, an eminent c:aunsel, in response eo the 0' Dea. Cortmission repore - whether t..'tey a.re -prepared to retain ouesida counsel, t.o refer the Mtter to him, with a view to determininq whet:her or not t."le Publlc Tendering Act. ha.s O.en breached?-~ If $0, by whom? And. if so, whAt fw:t:her action, if any, ought -m be taken in the administration of the justice of this Province? MR .. SPEAKER: (SilUDS) The hon. t."le President. of the COuncil. Mr.

Speaker, first of all, crue, t.lte report is made to the House of Assembly, but t.lote House of Assembly in its wisdom has referred this report to t.'le Public AcCOWlts Comm.i t:.t.ee. So u:ntil the Public Aceounu Committee reporu to t!1is House of its findinqs, the matter is u I nave indicaud in !:rf previous answer. I will indicate, though, Mr. Speaker, that ! think - I cio not knOW' whether it was a. slip of the tonqua by 't!.'le hen. !Pember or not, but I :..'link it rather unfortunate t.'la.t:. he uses the d.asc:ript.ion of legal opinion as an ouesid.e prosecutor. !

Co not t.,ink he :neans that, because the word. 'prosecueor• connotes that t.,ere is something to prosecute - MR. ROBERTS: A special counsel. MR.. MARSHAL.t.: - a special COWlsel. The: indication of the hiring of Kr. Robineete was on an enti.::aly different: plane, because there we were inquiring into whether or not there had been any breaches of another seatute whi.ch is not within the jurisdiction of this particular Assembly. So the answer remaina t.."le same, Mr. Spea.lc.er, that this qovernmen.t will await, first of all 1 the report of the Public Aecounes Coamdttee, nt.mtler one: nura.ber two, 3479

Noveuber 27, 1979 Tape !io. 1391 Sil - l :-l.R.. w. :-!AF.Sn;..r.;.: ~~e en~ira sit~tion, as I can assu=e this bouse, of !:he action eilat toe government. is now taking, is by appoinei.n; a. full open Public Accounts Comm.i~~ee to examine t.'te a.ffa.irs of goveJ:I'Il:l.ant and we will still continue to do it. In ehe meantime, Mr. Speaker, I give the non. House t..~e full assw:a.nce t..lta.t this a~~is~ation, t.he Peckford adminis~ation, is en:irely commit~ to t..~e follo..,ing of the spirit: and inunc of the Public Tenders Act of t..~s Province. SOME H. ON. !iE.'i.BERS : l.1R •• SPEAKER: (!ir. Simms) MR. J.

HOOCER: Hea.r, nea. 'l'he hon. member for Port au Port:. ~-tr. Speaker, a q".J.est.ion fer t..'le liin..i.ster of Education (!iS. L. Verge). IA a statement:. made a. !ew days ago sne announced t..'la~ there would. be $12 million given to the LJECS to en.a.JJle them to undertake capieal projects. My quescion to ehe ininist:.er is, what por':ion of that. Sl2 million wUl be usea for new school construction and what proportion of tllis money will be used to amortize t.~ present debts of the school boa.rd.s'? MR., SPEAKER: MS • I. • VERGE : The hen. iiini.st.er of Education. Xes, Mr.

Speaker, that d.ecis~on &.bout how the DenomiAational Education COmmit.taes will man;.ge t:he authcrization c;iven by ;overnment, anci a.nnounced by me last week. to proceed. with ~12 :n.illion wrtn of school construct:.icn 1 as eo whetner it will be applied 't.O pay-off exist:.ing aebt or as to whether it ..,Ul be applied to enable new •onsuuc-t.J.on to proceed., is a decision of the Oenominational Eauca~n Committees.

It was a measure taken by qovernment to enable the oenoraina.tiona.l Sciucation Committees to put them in a financial posicion to see that this amount wort..1. of nev school construction is, in faC't., start:ed arui compleeed. Sut the way in which it is actually m.ana.;ed or used by t.he Oenominat:.ional ~ducation Committees is a decision. which must. remain with ~~e OenomLnational Ed.ucation Commiteees. MR. J. HODDER: A supplemenea.ry, Hr. Speaker. 3480

Hovem.ber 27, 1979 !1&. SPEA.KZ..::t: (!ir. Simms) Port: au Pert. HR. J. OOD.OER: Tape Ho. lJ-31 SD .. 2 A supplementary, t.he hon. member for Listeninq to t.ne mJ.nister 's ans"Wers, it ..auld seem to me t..J.at this $12 million wUl not necessarily be used for new sc:nool c:onst.ruct:.ion in the Province, pa.rticul.a.rly in l.iqht of some of the statements which ha.ve been mad.e by the PC Denominational Committee and the IEC. aut, Hr.

Speaker t my quest:.i.on to the m.inis'ter is 1 would it not have been bettar if t.he minister hau e.u:marked. a pro­ po.r-..ion of t.\1at money for new sc.ilool c:onst..-uc:l.on anc. '"hat will s:op the DECs from spending all the money to amortize their debts and will this, indeed, mean t.ha.t there will be new school . .::onst.t:uct.ion in the Province? 3481.

Nova:nter 27, 1979 Tape ~io. 1392 !:JW - l 'L•e he:':.. :linLoter of ;::;cucaticn. :tr. S:i:>C~er, the arranger.ent. l..et:ween gove.:rur.ent .!md t.h.e Cenocinat:ional i:ducation Cofl'lmit:tees is one lone; rootaQ. !.n tradition anc! re-inforced in t.'le 'l'er:ns of c.-.ion with Canada at tile tit:.e of confederation. t:nde.r t.'lat constitutional arrangement t.'le rcle of government: is a licited one. 'iie have Cone all that is in our ?ower to see tha:c baC.ly needed school ccnst:...~ct.ion 'is carried out.

It i;:; not within our power unCLr t..'"le constitution to ~e any definite condit.icns on the use of this a.ut..'loriz.ation by t."le tenominational i.ducation Committees. These com:nittees, as t.'le arms of the c.'lu.rc.1.es in education, are entrusted i:.y t.."leir c.'lurc~ au~~orit±es with tne respcnsieility of canaqing t.'le a.ut.'lorizaticn well and proviei:lg ~adly needed facilide.::o for t..'lair r.e~pecti ·.re stu.c!ents and ..,.e have t:e rel1 on the c:nurc:h com::U.ttees to see t.'1at thoit is ciooe. !!B .• J. iiODCER: ;., final suppletnentarf, Mr. Sp« aker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementarf, the bon. ce::lber for Port &\! Port followed oy t.1te hen. me:ltber for aa.ie Verte - W:U. t~ :!a:·. HR. J. liOCCER: ttU.ni.ster must knew or should have some idea as to how :r.onies will be Silent on school eonst-'"'Uetion in this Province.

However, I wculd lUe to put this question to her and it is a double-barrelled question: Since 80 per cent of the high schools in this Province ila.va school popuJ.atioos of 300 students and under, and. where t."lese schools in many cases nee!! libraries, labs, ind.ustl:ial arts facilities in order to prepare t..~em for the Grade XII proqramme, could t.'le tlini.ster attet:pt to eXCllain wb.at positions t.be school boa.rds will be ... in' once the Gracie XII ?roqramme is introduceC: i.f • as the two gentlenr:en in this morning's papers sa.ated 1 that $80 clllion is needed by tile ttc and $7 million per year by the Reman Cat:holic :=:ortion of the OEC1 s?

Anci also would the minister tell we whether the Sub-cott:mittees working on facilities looking forward •ith a.n eye to Grade XII in 1980 or l9Bl, have :.hey made any reconomenciations or· have they cotr:e up witi'l any figures as to what t.'te cost of Grade XII will be as far as capital school constructions is concerned~

:«lver.ter 27, 1979 MR, FLIGHT: MR. SEE;~,.::"J:fl.: (S!~.MS) !!S. \.'E:RGE. : c~ - 1 A good question. The non. ~tinister of ~clucation. Yes, Mr. Speaker, ! will take the second. part of the .:;,uestion first. There is a Sub•oommitt.ee of t.~e Steering COmmittee planning the implettentation of Gracie XII ~r~~~ is looking particularly at cost esti~tes and facilities. That committee is c!la.ireci by Mr. Kev:.n Greene, the ExecutiV~a Secretary of :.he FeC.eration of Scho61 Boards and has

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1393 NM - 1 been at work now for a few mon~~s. It is expected to give me a report in a couple of weeks time Which will contain fairly d..etailed information about what facilities will be required in each school district in the Province, together With an estimate of the cost. The first part of the question dealing with the need for~ditions to high schools to provide libraries, labs and indus~ial arts facilities, such facilities are noc present in all of our high schools.

It weuld be d~sirable to have them in more of our high schools, however, ~~at need is not going to be particularly affected by the extension of the high school programme. Even confining high school to grade XI as we have now 1 it may be argued t.'1at th.ere is a need for libraries or labs to be added to high schools and that same argument will remain after the programme is expanded with the addition of grade XII. It is something that . .,.e have to look at:. along with. the Denominational Education Committees in future funding of school consuuction. MR.

SPEAJ«:!l (Simms l ' The han. member for Saie Verte-White Bay, followed by che hon. member for Grand Ban.k., if time permits followed by the hen. member for Terra Nova. .'m. RIDEOOT: Mr. Speaker, t have a question ::or the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Envirorurt:lnt. My understanding of federal laws governing the rate of int:.erest to be charged on small loans made by finance companies and businesses of ~~at nat~e, is chat the interest rates can only be up to a max~ of ewenty-four per cent per annum, two per cent per 1IIltlth up to a ma.ximum of twenty-four per cent ,Per annum.

I want to ask the minister whether or not she has had r any complaints from consu:ners in t:he ?rovince that certain finance <'companies are charging interest rates well above the twenty-four per cent per annum allowed by federal statute and, if so, whether sha has made any representation to the Government of Canada in an effort to have those people who appear to be charging excessive interest rates brought into line?

November 27, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (Simms l : and t:.he Environment. Tape No. 1393 NM- 2 The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. MRS. NE"tiHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I have not recei•.red any complaint:.s of· t:.hi.s nature. It has not:. reached my desk. Now whether or not some of rJI'f officials have received them,.. I cio get a bi-weekly repon but I have not seen til.is reported as yet:~ But:. I will take notice of t.Us and I will bring you the answer tomorrow. 3485

November 27, 1979 MR. SPEJU<ER (SI.'1MS) : Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Tape 1394 ?K Pt supplementary, the hen. member for Baie Mr. speaker I I thank the minister for her eo-operation. And I wane to ask her - the problem, of course, as it has been explained to me 1has come about because of the interest rates themselves that the companies must pay for the money that t..."ley borrow, but that is beside the point, if th.e law is 24 per cent, then finance companies or anyone else ought not to be engaged in legalized ot: illegalized loan sharking.

So I would ask the nUL~ister whet..."ler or not 1 she would make represeneation to her Federal counterpart, because Chere is not too much th.e :Unister can do about it if it. is not a provincial statute, but whether she would undertake to make representat.ion to her count.erpa.rt in Ottawa and ask that t.he lending institutions be, particularly in this time of high interest rates, closely policed so that they may not be inclined to charge t.hat one or two or three per cent extra and thereby take it out of the hides of the consumer ·in this Province. SOME HaN. MeMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAI<Elh The hon.

Minister of Consumer A£fa.irs and Envi:'onment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, after I have L~vestiqa.ted ~~is ma.tter. if I fi.nd that this course of aceicn is necessary I will certainly take it. M!L SPEJ\.lCER: The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR .. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Justice (.Mr. Ottenheimer) I would like to ask the House Leader {}lr. Ma.rshalll a question. MR.. ROBERTS: He did some favour by going away. MR. THOMS: As this House knows the Executive oirectoZ. oi!

The International Fund For Animal Welfare put out a news release prior to an appeal before our courts,which appeal,I understand,is .being heard today. In that particular release The International FUnd 3486

November 27, 1979 'I'ape lJ94 PK - 2 Mr. Thoms: For Animal Welfare says ehat in anticipation of -wha.t our court is going to decide - in anticipation of what our courts Qecide says that:~avies today lost his two year battle to appeal his c ... nviction; 1 prejudging what the court is going to say. They go on to say, "That he was imm.ed.iately taken to the penitentiary in St. John's to complete a ja.il senunc~:. .Fu.reher on i.n the release, they say that they are openly fearful of what will hAppen to Brian Davies while he is serving this speculative two year sentence, ~o,nen ehe release was made.

They also go on eo say, that St. John's, Newfoundland is far enough a-way that. "accidents" coulcl happen and little of the world would take notice. Now, Mr. Speaker, I find the fact that an organization, and one where Brian Davies is the Executive Direcwr of that organization, would put out a news rel.ease like that 3487

November 27, 1979 Tape 1395 ::;c- l Mil. ':HOMS: prior -:o t.."te cour-:. hearing and pr:.or to knowing what t..l-te court will C:ecide, I. find it contemp-:.uous e.o ehe people of Newfoundland and I believe it probably could Ce determined to be a contempt of court. My question to the President. of the COuncil (Mr. Marshall) is, Will this matter be investigated by t."te Oepart:ment of Justice? And, if found to be coneamptuoua, Will eharges be brouqh.t against either Brian Davies and/or the International Fund for Animal Welfare? MR.. SPEAKER:: (Simms) 'Ihe hon .. the President of the council. !'m. M.ABSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure t.'lat if there is one area of unanimity in this House as well as unanimity in the Pl:'OVinca, it is the public at'eitude towards Mr. Brian Davies and his qroup. But at the present time t.'le matter is before the court, a.nd I would assume that if there are elements of eoneutpt of court involved 'that the court, itself, has the mac..'lanism by its own motion of C.ealing with the matter .. Contempt in the face of the court. 'fes, contempt in the face of ehe court. As I say to the hon. member, I appnciat:.a bis question. I am sure we are all at one about Mr. Davies ancl b.is qroup, but:.

I do not really t.b..i.nk t.hat:. parhaps at t.ha present:. time it would be proper, really, to c:oU~~n~mt:. on a uttar th&t is before the court .. MR. SP£.1\KE.R: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. Prese.ntinq Reports by Standing- .md. Special Co111Dittees. Notices of' Motion. and Environment. MBS. NEWHOOK: The hon. the Kiniseer of consumer Affairs Mr. Speaker, I would like eo respond to a question f::om the hon. the member for the St:.rait:. of aeue Isle. MR. SPEAKER: Order 1 please! The hon. llli.nisur, that ..,ill COU'l8 up in a couple of ttCment.s..

We are. on Presenting Report:s by Standinq a.rd Special COmmit:.tees at:. th.is stage .. 3488

November 27, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms} Affairs and Housing. MR.. N. WINDSOR: Tape 1395 EC- 2 NOTICES OF XOTION The hon. the Minister of Municipal Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow &ak leave ~ introduce & bill entitled, "An Act To Amend 'lhe Members Of ~ House Of Assell"'bly Retiri.nq Allowances AC1:., .. especia.ll.y for the member for t.a.Poile (Mr. NeU':f) • SOME HON. MEMBEPS: Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAJ!Sl!ALL: 'the hon. the President of the COuncil. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Ministe!." of Industrial Oevel.opment (Hr.

Barry}, I give. notice that I will on tomorrow a.sk leave to introduce il bill entitled, "An AC1:. To Rati!y, Confirm And Adopt M Amandinq Agreement Entered~ Into Between The Government And Burqeo Fish Indusuias L.imit:ed And Ot.hers ... ANSWEPS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHIOt NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEA.lOl:R: and Environment. SOME !!ON. MEMBERS • MRS. NEWHOOK: il Utt.le t.oo anxious. SOME HON • MEMBERS • MRS • NEWHOOK: 'nle hen. the M.inister of Consumer Affai.rs Hear, heart I aa sorzy, H.r. Speaker, I th.in.k. I was Oh, oh!

I would 1 ike to respond to the ques t:ion from the hon. the member for the Strait of Selle Isle (Mr. ?.oberu) wit:l::. ·reqa.rd to t.lote useeauent of the Pole Vault: radar site at St. Anthony. our official, on November 21st, inspected the Pole Vault site, accompanied by Mr. Ter:y Simms and Mr. 'l'homas Green. AN HO!I. MEMBER: (Inaudible}. Yes, two of 348S

~ovember 21 1 l979 Tape No. 13 96 s~ - l !-IRS. ii. m::W1iOOK: th.e town council ::n~:..:...;.rz. Seven separate areas of the site were inspecte~·At ~~ee of the areas a sample was taken and. the!{ are now being s .. oipped to Memorial UniversitY for PCS an4l:tsi.s. There were t\110 transformers four.d. at:. the site, both clamaged to some c.eqrae.. 'the qrou.nd '"'as sampled in the vicinity of Che tra.ru;fortler 1 s pieces, Another known si:.e of transformer storage was sampled also,.

The derelict buildings housed no transformers. one area was poin't.ed. out by t:.he councillors as beinq t:..~e si ee at. wnich a large nwnber of transfor:.1ers had been buried a nu:mber of years ago when t:.he site was closed but it was not possible to sample in this area because of the ;:resence of a ha&~J vegetation cover and snow coverage. At the ...,aterfront there is one transfcrmer 1 wnlch is unlabelled,on a pole near ~19 water and one lea..ldng on a pole near t.~ Golden Eaqle o:ank fa...~. They are no longer in service arui are near the dock and stora.qe shed. used. in conjuceion with ::.he radar base.

Before closure the shed. conta.ined some t\lfenty-Oo'O litre tins of trans!or:a.e%' oil. There are uansfor.ners in. use at: the adjacent ~T facilitY and there will be a further report when samples taken a.re a.na.ly:.eci. But the&e is no definite indication t.ha.t sa.rnples taken contain PCS oil. I have an a.nswer for ehe hon. member fOJ: I.a.Poile (H.r. s. :leary) ai:out the d.ispoaa.l sit.es of the olly d.ebris collecte<i last Swmner. MR. S • NEA.R:t' : Will you read that out. MRS • ti. NEW 'HOOK : Yes.

The oily debris collected insid.e and outside Grand BrUit tia.rbour were disposecl off at Gra.nci BrUit: on the East side of the community at: the base of t.onq Point. Tlle debris collected at Petites, I.a.Poile, aurqeo Harbour, i'ihite .aea.r say, Say de Loup, ooq Cove, Grey River and Franry:ois were depos~ted at. Surqeo municipal aisposal 8ite - I ~ it is about two kilometers Northwest of the town. 3490

:tovembe.r 27, 19i9 Tape No. 1396 Si:l ... 2 The debris collec~ed a~ ~~-cniras of Sa.nd:canks Provincial Par)<;. was ~eposited ae aurqeo a.Cove tile hign water ~UL"k aort.."lwest of Poea.to Point:., in ewe sit:.es at:. t:.'\at:. FOi.."lt:.. '!'he debris collected Norcheast, one-e.ni.rd of Sa.ncibanks ProVL"lcia.l Park, wa.s cieposited at aurgeo al:love the h.i.gh water ma.:o:. at the !tor-...heast. end of Sandbanks !?ark and there were two sites there. The oil collected. at Ramea iia.r!Jour and tha.t pare.icular area; cnis flU ciisposau of at the municipal disposal siee adjacent:. to Ramea.

T111:11 oil collee't.ed at .Coombs Cove fiar!:::ou: was depositec! at. COombs Cove m:.micipal d.isposal sit:.e. The oil collected in ~~e v~cinity of Harbour areton area and ~"le recreation beaches; :.h.1s tJas disposed of at:. t.he aa.rbour Breton :a.u.."licipal disposal :Site. The ell collected ae aills Cove and. t!le Soutneast end of alack Island Cove was disposed. of on the Isthmus .between Bills cove and alack Island cove. And t.he oil collectec. central portion of alack Island cove was disposed oi at Black Islar.a. Cove above the high water mark at t""" sites. The oil collected. at. Pat.=ick.'s cove and.

Goose..berr{ Cove wa.s disposed of at Patrick's Cove garbage dumping site anci t:.be oil collec:!.ed. at Point La. Haye,, St. Stephens, COote Pond. and Holyrood Pond wa..s disposed of at the Ga.skiers municipal disposal site. 3491.

November 27,1979 Tape No. 1397 AH-l MPS t:EW'HCOK: My officials tell me ~~at eighty per cent of all th•t oily debris collected was disposed of at municipal disposal sites and at tr.e other sites they were all buried vith the exception of two and these were the last two disposed of late in Noveteber and these will be buried in the near future. And as far as we know- we do not think there vere any buried at berry sites of any kind unless the berries grew there after they were buried. M.R: SP!:An:R: {Simms) MR.MARSF..ALL: The hen. President of t.he Council. Mr.

Speaker, I have the response to the question asked by the bon. member for Eaqle River (Mr.Hiscock} yesterday. He aslced me about the number of crimes t.~at had been committed around the St. John ._s area for certain specific: offences. I have to inform the House that this information is not available. It is not catalogued as to the tiJna when the crimes oeeur. It is obviously catalogued in their reports themselves but they a.re not indexed so it is not available. The only thing I ean tell the hen. amber .;, and perhaps t.~e other hen.

UlelDbers ~posite lnl.9ht relay it to him in his a.bsenc:e, that we have made enquiries of t.."te Royal CAnadian Mounted Police and the Royal Newfoue.d!~d Constabulary a. nd we have been told t."'.at the worst times for c:"i.mes, that is the times when there is repetition of crime is between 8:00 P.M. and 2:00 A.M. in the tnorning. I do not know whether that will serve the hen. lttember, or not.I£he wishes to ask further questions when he eomes,based on this response, I will be qlad to address myself to them.

ORDERS OF THE MY Motion, t.."te hen. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The S tatuta Law," carried. (Bill No.7l) On :notion, Bill No. 71 read a first time ordered read a sec:ond tilne on tomorl:OW. 3492

November 27,1979 Tape tlo. 1397 AH-2 Motion , the hen. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An 1\et To Amend The Leqal Aid Aet, 1975," carried. (Bill No. 67) On motion, Bill No. 67 read. a first t.ime ordued read a second time on tomorrow. !'lOtion, the bon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, ''M Act '!'o Amend The r.iquor Control Act, 1973,,. carried. (Bill No.70) On motion, Bill No. 70 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the bon. tbe Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mineral Act, 1976,'" carried. (Bill No 69) On motion, Bill No. 69 read a first time ordered read a second time on tc=orrow. MR. SPEA!<'ZR: order 31, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Alrlend, Revise And Consolidate '111.e Law Ralatinq To The Establishment And. Administration Of Municipal Government In The Province.'" (Bill No.SB) West. M R. HOLLE"l"T t SOH!! HON. M!!MBE:RS: Hll. !lOLU!TT• The bon. mell'lber for Burin-Placentia Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear!

If I ~er correctly, yesterday I ended. of! r.:ry remarks by pointinq out the lack of consultation with cmnic:ipalities in this Ptt:~vince in eonnect.ion with the proposed bill. 3493

Nove~ber 27, 1979 1'ape :;o. 1398 i:<\<: - l I would ~e to infer.:~ t.."i.a House that since t.•len I have had some calls and ~::acie n:an•.t r::yself anC. to different councils around this Province and some 1%14yors. I asked t..,_e1:1. their opinion of the Ae't. and to a person the ans-... ·er was the same, 'We cannot express an o~;inion on scmet."ling we do not know about'. Mr. Speaker, I just say that to reinforce the pcints I was making yesterea.y in that aspect.

E'u.rt..lter to this Bill, I. found it somewhat:. enlightening and somewhat dissappointing 1 at the saue tiee,yesterday 1 ~hen the hen. membersrfor St:.ephenvil!e (Hr. Stagg), from GanCer (Mrs. !fewhcok), and from tit.Ur.ber West 01r. Baird) spoi(e to t.~e 3ill ;?rior to the hen. metrt:er for Bay of Islands {Mr. ~oodrcw)..

While they were speaking there was only one thing that I could think of, that those representatives now are basically frore a to~n or a city that is reaping all the l.oenafits of a regional govexn~r.ent..becau.se of th6ir posicion, their location anC. their total in!'rastructure 1 which brings us into prci:la.Cly one of t::.he core i.."':portant aspects of t.1.is 3ill ana t.'-lat. is the right of the minister or the right:. of t!1e Ca.cine"C. . I to impose taxation under ::r.any and varied heac:tinqs here.

Personally ! hat-e some grave conce:z:ns atout t.ru.s aspect when it ccr.es eo small to'.ot%1 or rural :;e~ founciland life.

I. remember one of the speakers yesterday referred to !.t .:.s tb.e esn~:al.ization proqrarrute and inferring at least some devastating effec:ts which it haC in cer""...ain a.reas,Forcunately, the area I represent 1 I feel q:rl.te proud to say ~at it did not work in this !!'lanner. &ut the minister knows and cany mettbers of l:h.is House also know, t..1.a.e t.~e property tax is not necessarily the answer to many small towns in this Province a 1.s a ma.tt.er of fac:t 1 it is on record now that sosne of those small towns ea.n generate :ore revenues Wlder the present taxation system or with 'so~roe variation th,ereof than even the property tax -..rould · because of their location, because of re-sUe value, because of values of properties, etcetera.

And I am not so sure that-ell& people who live in those towns usually come under -:-..ro cateqorioas; ·(!.) they are dorrti~.ey to"'ns or larger towns, or they are isolate<! or semi-isolated tO\oons and full-time employed as far as cl.i..~tie conditions will pe::mit 3494

~ioven.ber 27, 1979 ':ape :io. 1393 .:.to: - 2 !-lR. D. liOLLZT:: in relation t.c resource harvesting or resource develo~tr.entor certai::.li' the ?ri.."le ·...-age ea_'7lers, t.~e pri:::e producers of our natura...!. resou.rc.as in t:.h.is rrcvince.

And r think it. is incwr.bent on a.ll of us to encourage tl'.ose people to have a good U!e in t.hosa tO\o'nS and in t..'tis Province because i.! we C.O not - if \oG are goinq to harvest our fish catches, i.! 1o1e are going t.o harvest our woo-d, if we are going to harvest our minerals, Wlless t..~ere is added incentive for t."lose people tc live where they a.re and be assured that tney '.olill ha•Je a. good future, that their cb.ildren will have a good school, then if it i3 not wit..lti.n their own capabilities eo generate the type of finances that are requireci to operate. an effieient r.unicipalit.y" it. is sim;:lly, because of nur:-~ers and mere .,importantly we all know the n~~ gam~- when. it comes to propert:'J values. !n a place Uke St.

John's,prob~ly ~~rysto~n, tr4ybe Placentia, Gander 1 thcse places 1 the property values are all equated a:ound (

a) c.'le co=erce, the services and a do::en ether aspects I cOuld :r.ention. And instead of those people, scme. day and ! hope ~at '-i'a always have a minister with gooci ct.a;retion, good common sense,as I think we have right ncwecertainly ~dealings wit.~ him has indicated this ... e."l.at this t.ee can be a\. ful biq whip rat."ler than !::.einq

an Act to b.el~ t:..is Province grew in a mannerly order so that t.lote parents in this Province ..,.ill fe:el proud to live in t.ltei:: connunity and ensure t.'1.at their children have a decent. place to live in. Hear, hear: (Inaud.ible). Fine, I will repeat it later. :ro, sicply. what I was saying,:-1r. M.i:U.sta~ was that in conjunc:t.ion..,..,..ith the property tax a~::, I feel t.h~= we all have a responsil:;ilit.y, regardless of where we are from and ca.rtainly be led by the Provincial. Government, to ensure the people who live in the smal.ler towns and the. 3495

~ovember 27, 1979 Tape No. 1399 NM - l MR. HOLLETT: more isolated regions are given the type of support that they require to live a happy comfortable life so that they can continue doing as Uley are now.

T.b!Y, are the prime workers or the prime producers of our natural resources, ,~ . if they are not given the encouragement and the financial backing in those small councils to know that their town will have a certain level of services, that they will have decent schools, medical se~rices, etc., then ~ey are not going to be very proud for their children eo live in that environment and,unfortunately 1they will look towards the Ganders and the St.

John's and the Burin Peninsula type areas to move to, which in turn,of course,is going to cost this l?rovince and the federal government as well many, many additional dollars to do the same types of things that we are getting done now by willing hands and heads. The act itself is a major piece of legislation. It is a piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, that those who have been involved in a municipal movement in this Province for the last fifteen years 1 for sure, have been asking for, a c..lotange ~from ~hat wa~ the Local Government Act:. for years and years. This act certainly does correct a lot of the p~oblems.

However, I think ·,o~e have to remember one thing and this act does overlook ,;t to a certai..n .extent, or in the

interpretation. of cer1:Ain c:livisions, which we will speak to individually later, ~ t:.hat the whole municipal movement i? this l?rovi~ce is built on the good will of volunteers; '!_itl)>:he exc·ept1firlof the cities -of st.Jot-;;7";~and cormeor ;:~roc-r: I think that all municipal councillors in this Province are volunteers. They could always be paid witn permission of the minister, which was never granted and. probably in his wisdom it was not granted simply because there were municipalities that could afford to pay and others that could not.

However, this particular act once again I think discourages, or Will c:liscourage 1 in my opinion, pe<:lple in t.l-te smaller towns, once again,acting on councils, simply because, whether fact or othend.se, you know, people will believe that down t:.he road it is t."le imposition of the property tax. The act does not. spell that out ·3496

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 139'3 NM- 2 MR. HOLLETT; specifically, 9ut _it does qive ~e minis~er, or I should say the Cabinet, the latitude to enforce a form of regional government. whether it is the will of the people or otherwise, on ee.rtain .areas whi.£h _'cannot pay certain bills, wtu..cn cannot. come up with their end of t.he.ll'lOney for water systems, and many other t:..'ti.ngs.

And without the proper educational process in place, Without t:..~e proper consultation, I am definitely afraid that there W1~~ oe 4 ~ut of small t.owns, and some large t.owns, that are going to find it very difficult to have ?eople to enter their names into nomination for elections. Because r think we ha•re t.o remember that. a lot:. of t..'le volwtteers that we have are not lawyers, they are not accountants, they are people who out of the good will of their neart.s with an honest desire to serve ~~s Province, not just their community, are doing the best they can.

And unless they know for sure what they are gectin; into 1 I feel they are going to be negative and say, "Well, let somebody else do it and I will sit back and see what is g-oing to happen." I have had that on two occasions and I certainly did not solicit it and I think my record is quite clear in relation to the support of municipal qovernmen1: down over the years. The property eax aspect Of it, itself, is good and bad. It depends where you live once aga.in.

Because what has happened in this Province, and I think we will all aqree, at least on this one point, that if you take this Province now1 basicallY, I would suggest well in excess of seventy per cent of the population are living in some sort of a reqional complex, commercially, industrially, educationally, health, and otherwise and so far it has worked qood on the basis it is. But what has happened is that the big towns or t..~e centres gets larger simply because they were the one with the property ta.x 1 tpev~ are t:.."le ones that bring in - Gander will bring in from Hare Bay and elsewhere.

Marys town will bring in a large por1:ion to the Burin Peninsula. Corner Brook does it. Port aux Basques does it. But the fact remains, then, because this has been .3497

November 27, 1979 Tape Uo. 1399 :1M - 3 an ongoing ehing and the base is in ehere_ then it also means t:.hat the environs, the smaller towns within that particular region of service, they have less to base. a property tax on. This concerns me to no great end. I mean if you want. to look at1 say, Pore a.u Bras or Mortier, or Fo.li Cove on the Burin Peninsula. 3498

November 27, 1979 Tape 1400 PK Mr. Hollett: with. the imposition of the propert:.y taX there, unl~ss there are exceptionally high assessment or exceptionally high mil rates, there is no way that 't:.hose towns will generate with their limited population, the type of funds required so that those people can l~ve in relative comfort with basic services within their towns. Now, I think, tha. t applies, Mr. Speaker, to just about anywhere in this Province.

Now, by choice or because of l finaneial restra.ir.:"' or beeause of just a furturistic look at a !,(ay of life that a family would like to have~ a lot of those people have built in those areas. A let of people have retired and moved intc some of the smaller places. Ar~ what frightens me to a great extene.is the job of the assessor in all of this. ! have had considerable experience with them.

And if there are two properties sold, once again in Port au SJ:as, over the last three years, and there were two better properties, you know, the values were up here, unless there is an average taken - and I also know that the minister is goinq tc have a big job on h.is hands,simply because of the lack of quali.fied assessors in this Province 1 I \rriCuld suggest .. Mr. Minister, for years to come, before it is all done.

Then the quality and the fa.ir.n.iruiedness of those assessors are either going to clo one of two things, in the larger towns moreso than ~he small ones, and that is, there is going' to be one royal outbreak or the people will be submissive and accept. I suggest that unl.ess this is handled very 1 very carefully then the former will happen and not the latter • And, Mr. Speaker, al.so when speaking of small towns 1 I. have already said, as you know, three of the four speakers yesterday, and it was quite noteworthy to me when the member for Bay of Islands t.Mr.

Woodrow) spoke 1 he had some resertations, not: necessarily in a lot of the Act, but , I think, some of e.."le same points that I am malting or crying to make. I am looking forward to the member for Fortune - Hermitage {.Mr. TU.lk), if' and when he comes back to this House, to speak 3499

Nove=Qer 27, 1979 Tape 1400 ~K- 2 Mr. Hollet-:.: on th.is bill. I know his riding well. I am looking forward to the member for Placentia (Mr. Pat::t.erson} to speak on tb.ia bill, and many others. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest chat, it is almost incumbent on anything that is going to have such long-te.~ effects or ramifications to the whole future of chis province regarrlless of where we al.1 live 1 ! think everybod.y should express his orphans on the bill in a general sense, if possible, plus any division in this .bill that lle has pa.rtl.cular hangups with • .t think here in the House to a certain extent, I t.hink that the press itself is being derelict in not promoting this bill with full intent:. and with factual findings.

Because t.he.re has not been, in my opinion, another piece of legislation brought up in this House for many years, and I will predict right no-.., Mr. Speaker, that there will not be a piece that is going to profoundly affect the Newfoundland way of life in the years to come as this bill will when totally implemented. I am not saying it is good or bad, the way of life that this will encourage us into, I will not s:ay ,force upcn us1 but ! aJD definitely scared of the volunteer aspect of municipal government. in this Province which we al~ know has been the backbone.

I am definitely scared that in the smaller towns and regions we are net going to get the calibre, at least, of councillor t:ha.t we d.eser..-e or the people within their own town certainly d.eserves. SOME HON 4 MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. HOLLETT: wlll be implemented. I am definitely afraid of bow regional government Because as we know, this Ac't is not exemplary the Whelah Cozrmission Repore, as it was original~y conceived and the input made by the municipalities in this Province. AN HON. MEM!!Elb (Inaudible) • MR.

H.Ol.LE'rr: '1'0 a cert.aj.n extent, yes. aut the type of reqional government that was conceived, you know, to look. at the Burin Peninsula, to ask for a trial regional. government system to be set up some -what - seven or eight years ago, just to see i£ it would work as a mod.al type to use in t.he rest of ate Province. This Ace 3500

November 27, 1979 Tape 1400 PK - 3 Mr. Hollett: here allows one 1:.":1e latitude to do it but unfor'tunately, without agreement by the people it can still be imposed by tbe Cabinet. I am not sure I like that, Mr. Speaker. I do not like to think that I live in a r89ion of this Province or in this country when a government, a.ny government, can take unilateral riqhts and force upon me 3501

November 27, 1979, Tape 1401, Page l -- apb a ~fPe of local governmen~ which ! do not want. We all accept the provincial level. I thir.k we al.l accept the federal leveL But certainly when we get down to the municipal. level.,i.t can be done by legislation or by Cabinet decision, then what is the next step? We have to stop somewhere. I will. suqgest to this House right now, that if it ever comes to that stage, that there are going to be a lot of people in this Province royall.y upset and they are going to demand c..l-ta.nge and we all know where that will come from.

Personally, I do not want to see it come to that. !,for one, am quite willing to work with anybody who cares to implement any improvements into the municipal. way of life in this Province. I said this before and I will say it publicly now. However, I do have reservations on this. I will express them in division in future and, hopefully, anything there that is going to be detrimental to the way of life in Newfoundland. certainly I th.ink it should be lifted or changed. Thank you very much. SOME RON. ME..'!BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Baird) : The b.on. the member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. PATTERSON: I should like to make a. few remarks with regard to th..is bill. First a.nd foremost I should like to say that I am supporting this bill. AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible) part:ial.ly. MR. PATTERSON: No, wholaheal:ted.ly, 100 per eent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. PATTERSON: No, I am prepared to entertain questions • I come from a district. from an area in a district tha.t is in one hell of a mess because of the Liberal Admin.istra tion. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! AN HON. ME.'mER: (.inaudible) after ten years 3502

November 27, 1979, Tape 1401, ~age 2 -- apb AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: question? MR .. PATTERSON: MR. STim.ING: of Tory administration. Would t.'1e member permit a Yes. Yes, 90 ahead. Would the member aq:ree to give the Cabinet the same aut:hori ty tha. t it is given in this act if there were a Liberal government in power? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. PA'l'"'I'El\SCN: Hear, hear! As there will be. It will never happP.n. I will never live long enough. You will be t:rippinq in your '-'hiskers AN HON. MEMBER: I :io not know how long the han. member plans to live, but I hope he lives that long. MR.

PAT!'ERSON: We started out with local government in 1945 and since then we have been paying property tax. AN HON. MEMBER: Proper thinq. If the hen. gentleman wants to pay it, let him. MR. PAT'!'ERSON: Tob:)rrow, if we demand the services which we are demanding, water, sewer services, lights, qar.baqe collection, stadiums, ball parks, swi.mmin.g pools, you name it, we have to pay for it. AN HON. MEMBER: pre: pared (inaudible) pay for all. MR. PA'rl'ERSON: have been paying for all. AN HON. MEMBERt Proper thing. (inaudible That is right, we always (inaudible) question (inaudible)? MR.

PA'ri'ERSON: I wlll get to your question whe.n I try to decipher they way it is phrased. I do not u.ndeJ:stand i~. So we started out there with four towns, Dunville, Jerseyside, Placentia and F:eshwater and we were working along nicely. But: the member for the district at that time, bel.ng a Liberal, he thought that was too good, he thought that things were functioning and he wanted to get in there and cause ~U and con£usion and dissent among the people so he took 3503

NOvember 27, 1979, Tape 1401, Page 3 -- apb Dunville out and he set up t:.h.e Mayer in Ounville as a tool for the Liberal Par:y. Then he went down to Jerseyside - AN BON. ME.'!llER: MR. PA'l"l'ERSON: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. PATTERSON: ( inaudil>le) No, Greg Power. Oh, oh! 'the hon. or. Frecker condoned everything that was done in t.'tat dist:ict. AN HON. MEMBER: strike back. MR. PA'l"l'E.RSON : Or. Freeker is not around to I am not saying he is around or he is noe around. You are looking for questions. You ask me the questions and I will give you the answers. SOME BON. MEMBERS; Hear, hear: MR. ROBZRTS: Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect, Sir, it is not a frivolous question. The hon. gentleman certainly can state his view and I, for one, respect it and will listen to it, bu~ I know he would be the veey first to say that he does not intend to attack a ina.n such as Or. !'reeker. ay all means critici::e Dr. Frec:ker's actions as a public man. If that is t:..l).e way the hon. gentleman wishes, let him be. The hen. gentleman went up against Or. Frecker a number of times and ~l).e people ruled on that and so tha. t speaks for itself too. MR. PATTEl!SON: (Inaudi.ble) . MR. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, that is just the sort of thin.; we do not need in this House. Alain Frecker deserves bette!:' of this House than to have that sort of stuff coma ou"t of any hon. member. MR. PATTEl!SON: Frecker. MR. SPEAJ<ER: MR. PA'!"rERSON: MR. ROBERTS: MR. PA'rt'ERSON: member was {inaudible) • ! am not talking about Or. order, please~ You asked me a question. He deserves better, Sir. You vanted to know who the 3504

November 27, 1979, Tape 1401, Page 4 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: ! asked who the member was - MR. PATTERSON: And you got: your answer. MR. RDSERTS• Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Baird) ' Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I say it is a breach of the orders of this House, Sir, and a breach of the privilege of eveey Newfoundlander fer any hen. gentleman to :taliqn a :aan - AN HON. MEMBER: MRS .. NEWHOOK: MR. ROBERTS t Trash! Garbage! He was maligning his actions. No, he is not Maligning his actions, he is over there accusing the man of criminal conduct and of evetyehinq else. MR. PATTERSON: I did not accuse him of - MR.

ROBERTS: I will not seand for it, Alain Freeker deserves better of this House than that. MR. SPEAJCER: MR. MORGAN' What is your point of order? MR. ROBERTS: Order, please! State your point of order. Mr. Speaker, I do not take my lectures from the gentleman from Bona vista South (Mr. Morgan) on a 3505

November 27, 1979, Tape 1402, Page l -- apb MR. ROBER!S: point of order. I say, Sir, that the hon. gentleman from Placentia East {Mr. Patterson}, or Placentia whercwer - the hen. member who is speaking, the - MR. Pl\'l"'''ERSON: St. John's. MR. SPEAl<E!l(Baird) ' MR. ROBERTS' You knew nothing outside order, please~ - the hon. member for Placentia (Mr. Patt:erscn), who has been elected twice in r..ine tries - MR. PA'l'TERSO."i': And will be elected again. MR. ROBERTS: we will see about that. MR. PA'l"TERSON: You put your foot in {inaudible) Mlt. ROBER'l'S: I have been elected five times in five tries.

Not bad~ AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudi.ble) if you have a point of order, make it. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, my point: of order is simply I will say to the hon. g-entleman that it is a breach of the order and the privilege of this House for him to malign any person who is not here and,in particular, to malign a person of t.."le calibre of Dr. Ala.in Freeker. Equally, to malign Mr. Greq !?ower, but at least Mr.

Power is alive and can speak for himself and I have no doubt he will. tet the hen. gentleman state his posi.tion in this bill, Sir, without ma..liqning th.ose who are dead and beyond any ability to de£end themselves. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear~ MR. MARSHALL• Mr. Speaker, that is a very dramatic paint of order. You can get up and you can make your case along the lines that the hon. qentleman made, 1dth a great deal of amotion and what have you. MR. RI.JBER'l'S: MR. Ml\.RSHALL ' permit me - MR. SPEAKER: MR.

MARSHALL• The bon. g-entleman for Placentia has - (Inaudible) If the. hen. gentleman would Order, please ~ I pe.rmi tted him 3506

November 27, 1979, Tape 1402, Page 2-- apb MR. MARSHALL: - the hon. gentleman for placentia (M:. Patterson} has not maligned any person, least of all Or. Freeker. SOME H.ON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. MARSHALL: It is not in the nature of the hon. gentleman to malign people like Or. Frecker who is a distinquised. citizen of Newfoundland.

There was not..'U.ng whatsoever in his words that did and I think the hon. member opposite rose on a point of order and really got carried away - Persecution complex. - vith his own eirDtional speech and I think that lti.s own emotional speech,itself, is really contributing to a certa.in a.m:~unt of disortier in the House itself. MR. ROI!EicrS ' Mr. Speaker, on a point or order (inaudible) . SOME !iON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS : To another point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! !'[R. ROBERTS: To another point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER(BAiliD): Order, please! MR.

MOltGAN: There is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I raise a point of privilege, Sir. SOME HON. ME!MBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBER.TS: I have learned t'rom the hon. gentleman what was said. I simply want to say, Mr. Speaker, that the. hon .. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall} , I am sure unvitt.incjly, breached my pd.vileges and the privileges of any member in the House in imputi.nq motives to me as he did in the concluding remarks of his parti.:ula.r remarks on the point of order. I am sure he did not mean that.

If he did, Sir, tJtat is a breach of the privileges of this House and I would ask Your Honour to take the a.ppropria't.e action. No member, aa Your Honour is aware, has any d.ght to impute ·3507

November 27, 1979, Tape 1402, Page 3 -- aph .MR. P.OBERTS : the ~tPtives of any otiJ.er hon • member whether he agrees or not:. with what the otb.er hon .. mern.ber says. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, you know, we can carry this on to heights ot absurdity. 'rhis member was not imputing the I%Ctives of anybody. 'I'he point:. that ! vas bringing out:. when I was speaking was neither did the hon. the member for Placentia. The hon. former member for Placentia East (Dr. Frecksr) was a very decent individual, a very respected incl.ivid.ual but:. so, Mr. Speaker, is the present member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) himself, equally. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL' the d.ebate. MR. SPEAKER {Baird) : Bonavista North. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: of order? MR. MORGAN: AN BON. MEMBER: MR. !OJRG\N' Speaker. SOME HON. ME..'!BERS:: MR. SPEA!CE:R< Bonavista South has been recognized. MR. MORGA.'t; so I suggest we proceed with The hoii. the member for south .• Are you speaking on the point Yes, Mr. Speaker. The - On a point of order. ! am on a point of order, Mr. oh, oh~ The hen. the member for Mr.

Speaker, in listening to the debau in the Bouse and the point raised as a point of order by the Opposition Bouse Leader (Mr. Roberts), '1ft[ hon. colleague here was standing making a speech in the House and he was interfer:-ed with on a number of occasions by the same hon. gentleman who rose on a point of order. He was interferrinq with the speech being :nad.e by rrcy co~leaque and in doing so kept askinq questions. My hon. colleague merely answered a question and by answering a question he feels that there is a point of order, that innuendo has been cast on a.n individual. Mr. Speaker, tb.ere is no point:. 3508

NOvember 27, 1979, Tape 1402, Page 4-- apb MR. MORGAN: of order, in my opinion. based on the fact that if there is a point of order, it is a point of order in connec'd.on with interfer::-inq in a debate in the Bouse in the way tha.t the hon. gentleman f.rom the Strait of Selle Isle (Mr. P.cberts) is doinq conti.nuously in the House. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word. on that matter. I simply want to say that I was asking questions, of course, of the hon. gentleman for placentia, and as was hia riqht - or, he did not insist upon having the floor uninterrupted. In fact, the hon. gentleman was kind enough to a.nswer the questions. 3509

November 27, l979 Tape 1403 E:C - l MR. P;OBER'!'S: He did no1: cot:plain, so the:::e is earta.i.nly not.'l.inq of any merit. in what. tile geneleman from Bonavista South (Mr. MortJan) had to say in his intervention, whic:.lt was of the usual nature from him, a. s-elf-confessed lawbreaker. But., Mr. Speaker, the point. was, what the hon. gentleman from Placentia {Mr. Pat.te-rson) said, Mr. Speaker, is on the record of Hansard a.nd it will speak for it.self. MR .. !oi>RGAU: Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS t MR. MORG.i\N : A point of personal privileqe, Yes, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, t.he hon. qen'tlema.n jus1: stood innis pla.c::e, and I quote, referring to tne:, t.ha't ! was a 'confessed lawbreaker' • MR. RO!!E><rS• Self-confessed. A sel!-eonfesaed lawbreaker. Mr. Speaker, that is a vert serious dlarqe a.nd because it is incorrect anc! untrue, then I would ask t.."'.e Chair to :ule that. the hen. t.."le member for the Strait of Balle Isle {Mr. P.oberts) be asked to retract; that. statement. SOME HON. M£MB£tui: Oh, oh~ MR. POBE.R'l'S : M.r. Speaker, if Your Honour rules I should withdraw, I will, but. I would say that that stat.emant is true.

The hon. qentleman, Sir, s&id before the Public Account:s Coa:mdttee of this Prov:ince, a body of this Hcuaa, that he had broken the Public Tendering Act, but he then. plea.ded in his dafenca that he had done it with the permission of the Cabinet of the day, of ..,hidl he was a part;. He admitted, Sir, he had - SOME HON. MEMBERS; MR~ POBER!'S ' Order~ Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour cAlls me to order, of c:curse, but not hen~ qentl.emen opposite. MR. SPEAKER• (S&ird) Order, pleue! I think ..,e ue getting away from the subject now. We ..,ill take a five m.inuta recess and we ..,ill qet this straiqhtened out. 3510

~ovember 27, 1979 Tape 1403 EC - 2 ~ MR. SPEAKE!'.: (Bairtl) Order, please! With reqard to ~~e point of privilege rWea by the hen. the mel!ber for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), I rule the words 'self .. confesseci lawbreaker' are u.nparliament.ary a.nd a.sk the hen. the mal1'1ber for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. P.obert.

s) to withdraw this c:cmmene. SOME HON • ME."'BEES: Hear, hear! MR. F()SERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do so \li~ltout a.ny reservation or qualification, of course, i.."l response to 'lour Honour's rW.ing. SOME HON. ME..~EBS ; MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear~ With reference to the point:. of privilege raised by the mad.Jer for the Strait. of Belle Isle, 1 rule that t..Us was clearly a. d.if!arenea of opinion becween two hen. members. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

On the original point of order raised by the hon. the U'IBmber for th.e St:ait of Belle Isle, I would rule there was no point. of order, but. there was a de:qree of irrelevancy and I would ask t.."la bon. the ~n~mber !or Pla.eant.ia (Mr. Patterson) to continue wi:h h.i.s rema.r.k.s and keep them to Sill. No. sa. SOME HON. MEMBERS t MR. PA'l"'I'ERSON: SOME HON. ME..'!BEPS: MR. SPE.\lCI:P.: sllance. MR. PATTERSON: Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh!

Order, plea.se: The member has the right. to be heard in I would like t',:, ge't this into t.b.e record, that I did not a.t any t.ia say one wnrd, one s {liable, that was d.eroqatory reqardinq Dr. Frecker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MP •• PA'l"'!'ERSON: ! was a.aked, '~f'iho was the tnember a.t t:.~e ti.ma1 1 I said, 'Greg Power. 1 And then I think the Leader 3511

November 27, l979 Tape l403 EC- J !iR. PA'l"l'ERSON: said, 'I was th.inkinq it was not Dr, !'reeker, 1 or somet.W.nq like that. Or. Frec::ker was a greae gentleman, a great friend_of mine. SOME !iON. ME.!1BE.P.5: Hear, hear~ The only tilinq that I d.isliked a.boue h..i.m wa.s b.ia c::ompany, his political company. SOME HON. HEMBE.PS: Oh, oil! MR. PATTERSON; AN HON , M£."U!ER: MR. PA'l"'''ERSON: I could not do a i:.'U.nq a.bout that. ( Inaud.i.ble l . By a very slight marqin in one election that cost this qovern=ent $l, 700,000. AN Hal, MD..BER; (Inaudible) • MR. PAT'!ERSON: $600,000, We had a company formed - we raised 3512

November 27,1979 Tape No. 1404 l\H-l HR. PA'l"'!'EMCM: WE!: were going to build the Placentia LIP bridge and Doctor Smallwood and a few more of his cronies formed a crown Corporation, came in, and built the bridge. It was going to be a toll bridge when they ran it through the legislature here. You can get records from the £veninq Telegram where an editorial was written on it. !t vas going to be a toll bridqe. It was not going to eos1: the Province of Newfoundland one penny but when it was finished what happened? Free bridqe. Sl,700,000.

We would have built the bridge - we had an agreement to give the bridge back to the town council after ten, years. AN RON. MEMBER' MR. PATTEPSON: 19567 No, 1959, dle first year I ran. Just by the skin of their teeth they won. 230 votes. Sl,700,000 and t."l.ousands of dollars worth of liquor. SOME EON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPE:AKEit: (Sittll!ttSl Order, please! ."'R. PATTE!tSON: And that wu the time that they announced the quart: mine down there. This is all dealing vi th the municipalities and the indust-..-j,es that vere set up to support.the nnmicipalities.

And the Premier of that day was shoutinq about t.'le quart: and the quare: and the quart: and they were beginning to believe that he was talking about forty ouneers of dashinq Johnnie Walker . or stately captain fol.orqan but they found out they did not qet either the quartz or anythinq tilse pertaining to it. AN HON. MEMBER: That vas a bad point to make. MR.PAT'l'EPSON: That was a very bad one to make. But vhat I was referrinq to there in the beqinning was the :mmieipal government in that partieula..r area. We started out with one town, Ounville,Plaeentia., Freshwater and Otrnville. AN HOH. MEMBER: MR.

PATTERSON' AN HON. MEMBER: MR.PAT':t'EPSON: Four of them. Jerseys ide. Four toWM. Pour councils. But one council vas a reqional council. 3513

November 27,1979 MR. PAT'I'E:PSON: from all t..lte towns. !iR.. roBtm'!'S : MR.. PA'l"l'!:RSON: MR.. ROSERTS : MR.PA'r!'EPSON: MR • .ROSER'l'S: Tape No. 1404 AH-2 L~d it worked real well vith representatives When "'as that? That was in 1945. And "'hen was it changed? That was ehanqed in 1950. (Inaudible) Yes. 1951. It was a good political move to set up cells like they do in Russia, little communist cells to get a mayor in Jerseyside and a mayor in Placentia and one in Freshwater and one in OUnville. I lost five elections because I supported the ~lgamation and for no other reason.

I believe today that those towns should be consolidated. It is ridic:uloua to think we have four ma~ors and t.i;irty councillors for S,Ot!~ lav-abidinq, god. fea.rinq, peaea lovtnq,in.dividuals down in that fu greater Bay. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. P A 'I"ttPSON : So wa have a property tax down there and I have not had &.ny c:a:nplaints from the councils. They are anxious to get toc;ether now and in January the minister has a. meeting set up there with the four councils to discuss the possibility of amalgamation. I t.i;ink it will be a g'Ocd thing and I think it is a thinq that is long overdue.

Inaudible. MR. PA'l"'!'EFISON: And this is voluntAry recause they have approached him and I have in no vay eneouraqed t..'lem apart fr~ _!~ tters I uaed to wri ta to the press one time on that particular place. All HON. MEHilElh MR. PA'l"TT'!RSON' Inaudible. Bill Hoqan Bill Hoqan is one of the prime movers ot' that., Bill is a qreat friend of llline 1 a fine gentleman and he too has on~ fault 1 and he is a liberal - Apart: frca: that Bill is a gentleman. He ~k me for a ride in vour old car down there one time. (=natldiblel MR.

PA'M'E'RSON: That was the"'"Y~ ! qot elected, I was staying with you so that possibly brought a.boc:t: the election. I do not think that in any way that once t."lis bill becomes law, I do not think we are qoinq to have any trouble with it.t honestly do not see ar.y problems 3514

Nove~ber 27,1979 .MR.~A'!'TE:t!SCN: MR. STIRLING' MR.PA'1"l'EFSON: Tape No. 1404 AH-3 With t.~i.S bill. (Inaudible) answer my question? I t."li.nk t."le hen. member for Sonavista Nort."l (Mr.Stirling) is somewhat dJ.sturl::led over a few things pertaininc; to that bill, whether the power lies in this legislature or whether it is with the minister, I am sure there is no Minister of ~cipal Affairs today or ever will be who would try and assess property beyond its real value, there would be a revolt. And that is why ve are here today.

People d.id not like your policies, you were negativet you were running ~n~ay from t."le issues, you \(f!re camouflaging yoursel vas, you were hiding under the bushes so to speak. Now we have a government here that is coming in with strong progressive legislation t.~at is long overdue and I wish the government all the lue~ in the world with these proql:'ams. I do not see any fear of the growth of a community being retarded because of this legislation. People are well aware they have to pay taxes, they are willing to pay taxes but what they are not willing to pay taxes for, is if they are not getting the services.

MR.S't'IM.niG: People: are not willinq to pay taxes. ttley spend all t.."leir time tryinq to avoid paying taxes. 3515

november 27, 1979 Tape No. 1405 NM - 1 MR. PA'r!'ER.Smr: 'fes, !:Jut they want the service. MR. THOMS: Putting loopholes in the Income Tax Act. MR. PATTERSON: Why should Burin pay for services, you know, in Placentia? It will never reach 11 point. where Placentia will be able to amortize a $1 million water system. MR. NEARY: Well 1 sure 1 you have a $1 million sewer line down there ~;at has never been used yet. MR. PA1'TERSCN: MR. NEARY: :-tR. PA1'TERSON: c;overnmen t. MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: That is correct. That is in court. That is the policy of that government. No, that is not the policy of tile Yes.

No, that is not the policy of the government. That sewerage system was set up when th.e Liberals were in there. MR. NEARY: No, it was not. MR. PAttERSON: Oh guaranteed. Oh 'IJrf son I can bring you papers to prove that. Now, if a contractor •.rent in there and did a poor job, that: is not the fault of the government. It is certainly not the fault of the government because Dart Construction went in there and gave t.b.am. the dart. SOME HON'. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PA'l'TERSON: You cannot blame the Minister of Municipal Affairs {Mr. Windsor) for that one.

But that is in court:. now and hopefully we are gain(; to win the case and everything will be okay within a short while. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. PATTEltSONt A good legal counsellor involved in it. Excellent leqal couns~l. Excellent. So, Mr. Speaker, I think t!lere are others • They wasud a lot of 'IJrf time here today wit..'l their points of order, but you know I can see now why the - MR. ROBERTS: We will qive leave to the hon. gentleman to carry on if he wishes. 3516

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1405 GH-2 ~. PATTERSON: No, I will use it another time, thank. you. I can see now whj."' the House Leader on the opposite side is not the Premier of Newfoundland. It is simple to see that. MR. ROSEJ!TS• MR. PA'I"l'DSON: (inaudiale) the hon. gentleman only sees simple ~~ngs. Well, I am looking at simple t.h.ings and I re!lect. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER• (Simms) Order, please 1 Relevancy. That is all, Mr. Speaker. I think you can go on to the next speaker. ~. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGH'l': The hon. member for Windsor-Buehans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is obvious that is going to be a hard act to follow. I want to have a few words to say about Bill No. 58, Mr. Spf!aker .. I have had some experience over·the years with municipal polities, having served as a councillor and having served for seven years in t-own management. I have listened to the debate so far, and there have been some good things said about the bill. I recognize the qood things about the bill, but I also recognize the crapola., the nonsense that is coming from the other side, in supporting this bill. It is unbelievable, Mr. Speaker.

I have had a great deal of respect for, for instance, some of t..~e ex-mayors in this Province who are now members of the front bench in that government, and I have to comment, while it is still in my mind ,on some of the emnments made by the Mihister of Consumer Affairs and Environmene (Mrs. Newhook). While I have a great deal of respect for her knowledge in municipal affairs, I cannot believe some of the argume.nts she puts forward in defending this bill.

I would like to hear tb.at han. lady go into Benton and make the same a.rquments, tell the people of Benton how this hill is going to benefit them in the sense that Gander has benefited wi~~ a property tax:. Here you have a tawn. the only town in Newfoundland with a surplus capital budget. Here you have a town with every government 3517

November 27, 1979 Tape NO. 1405 GH-3 ~R. ~L!Gh~: agency - federal, provincial. crown corporation - pouring it in. Here you have a town chat, regardless of what heads of indusery decide to locate in t.."J.e Central Newfoundland area, wants to go to Gander, and I will gua.ran1:.ee :rou, Mr. Speaker, that if Benton ever wants to get the level of services that Gander has their mil rate will be a hell of a lot higher than Gander's is. You understand, of course, that the federal government built Gander. MR. FLIGh"T: Mr.

Speaker, the minister in defending this ac1:. said that this will only come into effect -'co not worry about it, it will take five or six or even ten years !or this to come into effect in the smaller communities~ Hogwash, Mr. Speaker! The day that this bill is proclaimed, e•rery community in New~ounciland that has a water and sewerage system will be hit with a property tax, and they will be hit with a property tax at the level t.."J.e minister indicates, as vell. Mr.

Speaker, you know the purpose of this bill is for the minister to do by legislation - to give the minister clout ~"J.at he could not accomplish by co-operation, tne spirit of co-operaeion 1 with the town councils. The minister did not need legislation to impose a property tax on every communir; in ehis Province, the legislation exista. The ;.ro.blem is that the minister and his predecessors have not been able to convince the various municipalities across ~~s Province to implement ,a property tax. He has not been able to do it, and I can tell you why, maybe, he has not been able to do it.

In 1971, the minister's predecessor said, "We are going to move water rates in enis Province to $12 a month. Whether the towns like it or lump it, we are goi.nq to do that." And they proceeded along doing it. but now here 1s the catch.. Not one dollar of that extra tax increase 3518

Novelll.ber 27, 1979 Tape No. 1406 so - 1 has beneficea t.n.CISe t.o\ffls r.eca.use everJ tcwn in Newfoundland wnen this a.cim.i.nist:.:a.t.ion,or every tovn which has got a wa:er and set.o~erage s1stem 1 wnen this a.aminist.rat:.ion cAme to power was in debt:. by way of bond issues and. there is no way that:. a to\oiT\ of 400 or sao people can collect:. enough money by water rat:.es or any other kL~d of taxes to pay thei.r debenture charges, pay t.heir interest. So what does this a.dminist:.ration do?

They have authorized tile Municipal Finance COrporation to intercept all revenue grants qoi.,g out: to the communities that cannot: meee their own debenture charges. And, Mr. Speaker, not one QURicipal tax increase in this Province have benefitea one community which has been in debt by way of :unicipal funding. so why should the council of Millert.a..rn impose a proper~/ tax when, for the ~ast:. three years, ~~y have tripled eheir taxes?

Every time they ca.me to t:.h.is minister or his .rrec:lecessor the now Premier, for any service whatsoever, for any extension, !or any improvement, they were told, •Yes, :fOU ;o back aM raise your taxes by three c.oll.u:s per mont..'l Wlt.il you get it:. up to twelve dollars and. uybe we wlll look at doing t.ha.t•. aut:. th.e dollars ~'ley collect:.ed never beneiited. the town by one iota because t..'le Department of Municipal Af!a.i.rs,wit.h. the minister's co-operation and assistance, wa.s int.ercept.inq their municipal qrants. so, Mr.

Speaker, und.er those circumstances why should. a. t.cr..rn eouncil look at. imposing on their people a property tax t:ha.t they know ..,ill have no effect whatsoever on improving the level of services or extending t.he services in that tow, that any increased. revenue collected. by way of propert:y tax will be int:.arcept.ed to pay of d.abt ~ges1 Well, let us call a. spad.e a. spade, let us tall the people •that. this act is going- to accomplisb.. 't'he message that t;"U! m.J...lister and all the people who spoke from that sid.e, anyvay, is crying t.o get across to the people of t:.his Province is, 'qo ..,ith a property tax and you will be better off ill your eommunities, you will have more 351.9

Uovember 27, 1979 Tape No. 1406 su - 2 Hii.. G. FLIGHT: money to appl:r to community servicing~ And that is a. lot of noqwash! What this ace :!.s doing is: forcing t.."le c:omraunit.i.es to pay t.'leir present debta, to get t.~ ProvincE: out of funding a. basic essential service - water and sewer .. Now, Hr. Speaker, it is nonsense :a sa¥ that any community in this Province that has already got a system or one that wants one will ever generate enougn revenue,I c!o not care what tha level of taxation is, will eve.r generate enol.lgh revenue eo pay tne debenture charges, the interest rates.

And while there is an interest rate outstanding any properey tax collec't:e<:i is going co be applied to t.~at debenture. Towns with existing services• \ob.ich are now being subsidized ~y $30,000 or $40,000 or $50,000 a year in interest charges, not in town admin.ist.:::ation,will find t.."'lat the extra reve.nua that they ra..ise wuier property tax assessment Wl.ll go to t:h.e paying off of eb:JH debentures and. they wUl not. be in any ~etter position today to improve their tcwn facilities then they were five years ago without ~s particular act. AAa I can see all kinds of rea&Ons -why tney will resent it.

I see nothing in this and t..~e minister might as well get ready for it1 I see nothinq in this that t:eJ.ls us haw t.he tni.nistu will react or deal with a eoWlcil eh.a.t. refuses, ca.tagorica.lly refuaaa, to impose a property t.a.x. And I can ~ cou.o.cils in this Province right now that are sitting ba.c.k and saying, •come on w.i.t.h it, what happens 'tlmen we say no' • and the.re are goinq to be literally hWld.reds, there .ue 309 communities, incorporated communities in this Province. 'l'.b.e minister says the Pedera1:.ion of Municipalities supports the Bill.

He fcrqot to say that only 184 COWlcils in this Province today are members of th4t federation. So 'they are not spea.k.i.ng for averybOCly in the Province, they are not speaking fer every ,,.municipality. Mr. Speaker, how ca.n a municipa.Uty which this present :ainist.er rejected. - ccminq to 'them for funding to upgrade roads in their communities looking for a measly $6,000 und.er a. 60/40 propositicn,:neaning that. the town would only have to come up with. $2,000 1 t..'le Province come up with S4(000 and. that minister and h.i.s Cabinet .rejected thAt kind of 35:ZO

;loveml:le: 27, 1979 Tape No. 1406 O)j- 3 ..tR .. G. FLIGHT: fundir.q for any community in t.nis Province, a eommuniey wnose roads were breaking down, that. it' r.ru;y were not fixed (.lp t.."loe invesCI.ent. al::eady put in would be lost and the minister bad his officials wri:.e back a.ncl say, 'No, j'OU cannot afford a.s .l to1m w come up with your own $2,000'. Z:s ehe minister ;oinq to cell.that toWn if you put in a. property tax t:.na.t you will ~n be able eo come up with the $2,000, a community with ninety people? Mr.

Spaa.ker, t.he speakers want t.0 llrojece this Sill as the pa.na.cea. for all town councils. Now1 the fact. is, I know of councils in Chis Province that have a p:operty 3521 ~·-----~

:;ove::-ber 27, 1979 ::..tt. G. FL!GH':': completely ba.nkru?t and the minister Y.nows it. Ee te:.l.s t~at particular council ::~r ae •,o~ants ':he ::essaqe to get out 1 that :mC.er this legislation ~~er~ will be ~nether S70,0CO or sso,oao a year availal:le. to :.tou.

There will not l;e another $70,000 or s.eo,oao available, all that will te a.vaila:ole is t..'lat axt:r3. ;7n ,000 cr saa.ooo will be ir.t.a.rcei?te.d ty !:unicipal .:\!fairs to apply against ~~e $150,000 or $2~0,000 interest rates that ~~at t~n alreaCy o.,..c::.:o oUld t.he tO'oin will contir.u.e st:aqnar.t. e;~oe :::i.r.is-:e.r is scing to accc~plish with this ai11 ... hat the l'rer:tier - ar.ci I tl:ink th.is has already been said in Ceta:e - Curing :..'1.e Cat?aign •.oc just ca::"e t!'lroll(]h four month.s ac;o, there was a comt:it.:r.ent there would be nc ~~ increases in t.~is Province. ?."ell, t.~e td.n.i.ster is a.i..out t:.o ~eomplish by the backdoor w·hat he is not ~repared to Co ~-;.rough t.te front c!oor.

Because by the time this legislation is ieplementeci prO,~;Ji:l.rl:/, practically every taxpayer in ':his P:-ovince ·..;ill Ce affected by this le;islation and t.."lere is no GoC. 1 s way :hat you coulC increase incorr.a tax w a point: that willme.m a.s ruuch revenue as ':his 1,•ill One of t.lote tigqes't. expenditures this Province :,.as :oday is -=..~e cepar:.I:":ent of :<!.unicipal Affairs, revenue grants. C.el:. t func!.ing one of the bigges1:. expenditu:e drains en this Prov-'...nce a."lci the minister has found a way to sock it to ~~e ~eople who e~ af!ord less, the .!:!BOpl.a in t.1.e sma.ller com::unities.

M.r. Spea.iter, '!here is a certair~ clause in that aill I would li.ke to have t.he :r.inister explain -... hen he gets up to close t.'lis Ceba.te, clause 129. Now, every ce=t;.ni t.y tha.t has a. property tax in this Province tocia.y has also got a water rat.e, most aveey one and the r.:aximum water rate 3.t t.his poine is twelve Collars per month, the minixr:t.ml anci maxi:nw::..Any eo::u:::.unities ':hat have a property eax has not a water rate more than t:We ,.,.. Collars.

Why the minister would want to pue this clause in ~l-te Eill and if this should not frighten t.."'le living daylights out. of -E!-..-er.­ municipal taxpayer in this Province t.~en I do not. know wltat. it shoulC Co. Clause 12.9; ""..:"'here the real propert:.y tax is in:~ased in anz• commur.ity", and tha.t !.s e~.oery cott'l'!'uni.ty L"l Newfounc!lar.d ~'tat has a 3522

~Joverl:.er 27, 1979 Tape Ho. 1407 ~. G. FLIGrl'l': water and sewerage syst:.er::. •,.;he::-e t.:'"le r•.;.:l a pe:rcant:a.qe of t:..~e assessee value of the rea.l property". ;iow'.,.ill be' nee 't'.AY be' ! So wha:t .,.e are goinq to be looking at is t.h.is; that a. community where a person's Froperty is assessed at. SSO ,JOO anc: we !:)ave a. t.en mil rate, real prc:;:e.rty ta.x,t..,.at is ssoa in real propert.y tax and unC.e: this legislation that eoun.cil can then say, 'we are also going to have a ten t:'.il rate water and sewerage tax'. Read the legislation, :·!r. Minist:.er!

OnC:er t..~e legislaticn :z•ou can get a town council saying; 'lOow'. 'fie intend to :,ave another S200 now so we will set our .,.ater and sewerage tax at five !l'.ils or .Jb: mils or ten ~r.ils and if t..,at town is Za.nkrupt, if tha. t town is in t:.~e position that soee of the towns in my district are in, where every ti:ne the councillors cotta t:o the ::".inister !coking for sor:-.e way out of the financia.l !;inC. they are in he has insiseeci tb.ey go back and raise ~1.eir t..u.

I can see t..,at minister saying, ·~ell, look your water and. sewer ~:~.il rate is only half a ;er c:ene', To quote the Minister of fin.mee 1 'Let us get it up to 3 per cent: There is no way!

That clause, it is unreal! 'i.'hy? !:..t.!t me ask tr.e members on the other siCe of the F.ouse why it is t.1.at a eozmuni ey t!ley are rei;resenting i.s prepared. to aecepe a tax load of a _proper-.::· tax that will jump their tax from what they are pa:a•ing now Sl44 a --- --<,. year :r.aybe, to $300 or $4007 Why are they prepared '!.o sW:Iject · .... hy are they prepared to subject the people l!.lr'-ng in those comrrunities to the •,.,·hJ.:ns of a councillors or ~e pressure of a miniseer who miqht browbeat a council into saying, "Let us get your wate: rate and sewer rate on a real property tax assessment basis'.

Why? W'ny is the clause t.iotere if the minister is not going to use it? Did the munici?allties request it? Did the Federation req,uest that clause :rcu i)Ut in? I know sotr.e me.r.bers on the Fetieration ,.he l!iC. not ever. know that clause was there and 1 as a matter of fact, in the last couple of days have gone to the ltinister and asked that t."l.at clause !:>e c!elcted. ~IR. :1. WDI"DSOR: Did you say they cue to me L"l t.":.e. last couple of days? 3523

~·love::-l:er ., 1 1 1979 :r~ - J HR. G. fLrGri':": t.b.at:. t."'le. .st. John's the Se.ephenville' s, t..'le Corner Brook's and t..~e :;anc:er' s .1.! t.:!li.s .:lil1 goes t.hrcugn we will have - I have nearcl t:.."le i?hrasa"here today I have heard some references these past. t:wo days to resettlement:. lie;,.:/ you .,..ill recall that in resett.le:rent t.."lere were growc..'l areas, •1aricus towns a.rou.nd this Province. ·nell, this r.ct. •ill set 1.i.P. ~tr.

Speaker, four or fi"oe con-.:nunit.ies ill this Province '.olhich will be the industrial cent=as o£ eo~rce in t..'-lis Provinca. tiiten eenton,in ':he .1or.. :-:;er.ber for Ga:1Cer' s dist:.:ict: (!trs. ;.;e.,..hook)1 get.s into a prct:e:ty tax 1;.;h!ch t..le:f will be !cr:ed t:o Co now under this legislation, ~1.eir propertJ assessment . .,.ill have to be so high t.'-lat: there is no vaJ, !-!r.

Speaker, that any person consiCarinc; moving into t.he Centx'al ::ewfoundland area wanting to establish a business and faeed with t.h.e kind of a.ssess:rent:. t.i.at is going to have to Ce applied to t.ltem in Qenton t . .'l.ey ..,.ill c.~oose Gander. And what ...,ill happen, Hr. Spea..ker, - t.ere is sc.mething elst!. th.is Bill ·.;ill Co for t.."le :dn.ister too - t.hae ae. some t.i:r.e \0/hen the Sent.ct. t:ewn council gets in t..--ouble and cannot meet: t.'1eir eo=it.r:·.ents he ~o~ill suggest to th~.

Sir, '~ell, look 1 why do :rou not. beco~e ?~ of a regional government with Gander call.inq the shoes'? t.nd :.:.1e ~en ten' 3 and all of the small cor~unities close to t:.he larger cent.::es of t.his Province will become dormit:.ory towns for resi~ential purposes, ghettos for the major towns, like Gander, like Grand Falls. :.is-t.en t:o the minister tal,.j(,ing about regional ;overmr.ent., "'here has he !:een thuse pa.st six years? 3524

NOVember 27, 1979 Tape 1408 PK - 1 Mr. Fliqht: His adr:tinist:=ation in 1972, recomend.ed to this ?rovince~ recommended to that government that there !:e an amalgamation d.one in this Province. It would. have served a great deal of good. The Patterson Report - the Patterson Report - AN HCN. MEMBER: He was in favour of it. MR. FLIG!!T: Yes, the :ninister might have been in favour but he never had. the guts to implement it. He J~B.Y have been in favour of it, but he did not want to talk. about ie while he .,..as the minister. And I am in favour of ie. MR. CINN: (Inaudible) • !'m. FLIGHT: MR. DINN: MR.

FLIG!!T: The minister wanted to make Windsor equal to Yes, I can see the .,..ay the minister is making equal - (Inaudible) regional water system and everything - Yes. I see the way the minister is making Wind.sor equal to Grand. Falls. I have seen this past four years how the minister has made them equal. He is ma.ki.nq sure, Mr. Speaker, this administration is making sure that the gap gets wider all of the time.

Why does not the minist:er stand up and explain why i'!; is that Newfound.la.nd. and .t.a.bradcr Housing went into Windsor four years ago and. serviced ninety lots, and ehey are selling for somewhere between $9,000 to $10,000 to $11,000 a lot depending on the size of the lot., and not one has been solei yet, not one. And why is it the three corzmerical developers in Grand Falls are servicing lot.s and. they are selling them bet'ore they even get. them serviced.? Has t.he minister's at.tit.ude towards Windsor got anything to de wit:.h that I wonder? His refusal to accept the fact that they need. a tax base?

IUs refusal to accept the fact that they need their municipal debts consolitiated.? That they need to have the.ir municipal services upqraded. so as to put them in a posit.ion to t.a.l.k to Grand. Falls with. some basis of sense. Why does not the minister qet up and tell the truth about Windsor? MR. WINDSOR: MR. FLIGl!T: Sit down and ! will get:. up and. tell you all a.hout it. Mr. Speaker, th.is Act is not going to be accepted. This Act will not be. accepted by rural Newfoundland.. There 3525

November 27, 1979 Tape 1408 l?k - 2 Mr. Flight: will be ;nore towns - I am int:erested in having the mLnister tell us what: he is going to do when the town of - any t:own1it does not matter- says, "No we are not: qoinq to apply that Act. We are not accepting property assessme."!.t." We will not have any councillors. What will the minister do then? Does the minJ.ster use the clout: of the.. Act:. then? Maybe that is what he is looking !or, maybe he wants to get into a situation where councils are saying, no we are not prepared to operat:e under this 1-.-:. t.. we are not prepa=ed to impose proper't:y tax.

And if the minister wants to say, "Well, okay then,I will use the force of the Act and appoint a Board of Trustees". But he has left the SOard of Trustees in place for eight or nine years, since 1971. SOME HON. ME."!BERS: MR. FLIG!I'r: SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! I am going to vote against this Act. oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: Oh,yes, t:he member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is right, absolutely and tot:ally. .t intend to spend the next year and-a-half yea..rs .. MR. STAGG: !tight. MR.

FUGHT: .. pointi."!.g out to the people, anyone who wants to talk. to me, every town councillor, every mayor .every taxpayer in the municipality, what the Tory Government is tr'Jing to do '"'ith this. ! intend, Sir, to make sure that - anyone who does not understand this Act will understand it after I get a chance to t:alk to them. SOME HCN. ME."1BERS: Hear, hear! Mit • .FLIGHT: The minister got a let of questions. What about the grants in lieu of taxes. Mr. Minister? How does this Act cover a company Uke Price (.Nfld .1 or ASAP.CO or some of the major industrialists in a town?

Is the.ir qr~t in lieu of uxes going. to be brought up 'Co par with what wou.ld be collected under an assessment in this situation? What about the crown Corporation , Newfoundland and r.abrado.r Housing, who owns about three or four million dollars worth of property in Windsor and are now exempt from this act? Are the tenants in those apartments goinq to have to pay the property tax? There is a clause in there that says they would have to. 3526

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1408 IB-3 MR. FLIGHT: The councils in this Province, Mr. Speaker, have been coming to the minister for years and years and. years asking for permission to exempt senior citizens from cer'2.in tax burdens. The minister bas never seen fit to use his authority to authorize exemptions fer people livi."lg' in towns with low incomes.. Now1 they are goinq to face, instead of facing a forty or fifty dollar a month municipal service fee, a $200 or $300 a year property tax ehat will be added on. The prope;ty will carry the tax.

The minister may, in his wisdom ,exempt or tell the senior cit:..izens that they do no e. have to pay and they will not for four or five years, bue. every year the property tax will be added on and. then suddenly when the son or daughter i.n.."l.eries th.a't. house they find the Minister of Finance's Department:. 3527

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1409 GH-l MR. FL!Gh"'!: sending down a bill saying you have eo pay a couple of thousand dollars in ar:ears of eaxes that was noe colleeeed while your mother and :ather were alive - like he did unde: t..'le SSA. There is no tax, Mr. Speaker 1 that is the problem. When property tax was first: envisioned in this Province, ie was on the basis that a property tax would replace all other taxes. Onder this act there can be triple taxation.

Onder this act: the coWlcil can impose about three of four different taXes all based on real property. tt is unreal what a person can end up paying under this ace, unreal. tt is unreal that the minister would have the gall to bring in that kind of act. So, Mr. Speaker, the question was raised, because there is no queseion about: the minist:er waneing to get this property tax imposed, and there is no question about how fast this is going eo come in. Whae about the assessors?

What consultants >1as the minister already picked out to get his assessment:s up to daee, so that he can apply this legislation as fast as possible by January 1, 1980? What consulting firms is the minist:er ineending to pass the business out to? What about a community 1 !tt. Speaker, that cannot at this point in time - Leading Tickles, Point Leamington, Buchans, Badger, practically every community in this Province today which has municipal debts by way of debenture and cannot meet those debenture issues'?

Now, what benefit is a property tax going to have for ~~ese people? we have seen the Department of Municipal Affairs intercept all revenue grants, if the town conc:e1:ned cannot meet its debenture payments. Now, will the IDinister tell us thae having imposed a property tax in a community and. having increased the revenue in that town by $20,000 or $30,000 that year, will the minister permit ~~t toWn to keep that revenue and use it to upg-rade or expand their facilities, or will he want it taken off and applied against the debenture debt? ilhat. is the situation, Mr. Minister? Is he going to rethink?

Is he goL'1g to tell the Municipal Financing Corporation to stop intercepting revenue grants, to stop int:erceptinq monies owed by the depa..rt.::nent to those municipalities? Or is every extra dollar collected by way of this act 3528

November 27, 1979 Tape No. l.W9 GH-2 going to be intercepted and applied against the debenture charges of the municipalities concerned? Mr. Speaker, you know, what about a t.own like Gander? While t.."le minister is talking about how their taxes are paying ~~e water rates in other towns, what about rrrt taxes paying for a swi:m:Ung pool in Gander? What about my taxes paying for a police force in St. John's1 Yes, but what about ~y taxes paying for ~e police force in St. John's? So, Mr.

Speaker, now t..~at we are going to have it fair and equal across the Coard 1 is the Department of Municipal Affairs or this government going to provide a swimming pool in Botwood, going to put a swimming pool in every community given t..~e same level of. services they have in Gander? With all the extra revenue that is going to come in from this particular legislation, t..'tat is going to be taken off the backs of the people in the small municipalities, are zou going to give the Town of St. George's police services, going to provide municipal policing for the Town of St.

George's and for the Town of Buchans and the Town of St:.. Anthony? What: are they going t:.o do with it, Mr. Speaker 1 or are they going to st:art telling St. John's to pay for their own now, now that they are going to increase their revenue by such a great. chunk, thanks to t..Us legislation? :;ol Mr. Speaker~ this leqislat:ion is not going to be very well received, and the minister knows that it has not been very well received. It is not understood. Less than l per cent of the councillors in this Province today understand it, have seen it, and it is something e.lse for the member for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) to say I delivered - big deal - you take five copies - in this case one copy and send it to the only inc:orporaeed area that he represents. That is a great ac:t for a minister and for a member. Did he sit down a.nd explal.n it to them clause for clause? I doubt it. t doube it if he has read it clause for clause. There is not a councillor in this Province today 1 Mr. Speaker, who understands that ace, who knows the ramifications of it - not one. 3529

November 27, 1979 MR. FLIG"dT: MR. STAGG: MR. FLIGHT' Tape No. 1410 !B - 1 I understand the clauses, I can see the beefits. Resign. I vill tell you, before this Act is implemented the minister might have to resign. MR. ROBERrS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGliT: The minister might have to resign. MR. RIDEOUT: The last minist.U had to get out. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the last min.ister resigned over a sil:n;i.lar Act. He will never forget t..ha regional bill that he brought in the last time. He kept his word thouqh. He said. in the House t.ha t, .. I.f I do not put this bill through, then I vill not be the minister ...

And he was not t:he minister. MR. ST:A~: were you not? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. FLIGHT: into the House this t..ime. AN BON. MEMBER: MR. RIDEOL'T: MR. NEARY: who was against it. MR. ?LIGHT: You vere the elevator operator on that one, We do not count that. No, the eleva tor opera tor d.icl not make it back Who was that? He was from your side. He was one of the people on the qovernment. side So, Mr.

Speaker, I vant the minister - I do not. expect him to address b..i.:mself to everything - I want that Clause 129 expl.a.ined, why he finds it necessary to allow the towns covered under this Act to chanqe the basic water rate, which is twelve dollars a month, nov costing every hcuseholdar who uses water in this Province $144 a year, vhy brinq in a real. property tax? There will not be many a.ssessp:ents in th.is Province that will. be less than $30, 000 a year, very fe<ol' pr .Jperties in this Province, residential property, that will be assessed for iess than SJO,OOO MR. WDIDSOR; MR. FLIGHT: has a one mil rate.

MR. WINDSOR: MR .. FLIGHT! How much is that on a one mil .. rate? 'lou name me a town in Newfoundland eoda.y that Bell Island. Mr .. Speake.r, the m.il rate in this Province today 3530

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1410 ra-2 MR. :'LIGHT: are closer to 10 mils than one ~il. That is the kind of double talk we are getting. That is what the people in this Province are being led i:lto and being sucked int.o, a hal£ a mil rate, one mil rate, t-..ro mil ra. te • The average mil rate in this Province today is seven mils not one, closer to ten.

So why is it that a community which does not have a property tax now but will have to accept the property ~x, that property tax will then cost them, the real ~rcperty assessement will cost them, sa~ $300 a year, that is not - you r~ow, Mount Pearl is higher ti>.a.n $300 a year. aut why is it necessary to then say that that town has got the right to charge a water and sewerage rate based on the real property assessment? AN HON. ME!iBER: Included in it. MR. FLIGH'l': Not included in it. Quite apart from it:., Mr. speaker, quite apart from it. But:. why is it. not included in the clause. It is a clause onto it.self.

Let me read it, ''Where t:he real propert.y ta,X is impcsed. n-already i.mposdd-" in the toWn the water and sewerage rate sb.al.l be set}' So,you know, this is a departure. We have to get away from the fixed water rates now. Under this clause in this act, if it is net amended 1the fi.xec! water rate of twel•.re dollars a month will no longer exist. The coWlcils will have to, under this act and under this clause,set their water rates at a mil rate. Now, ar. Speaker, there is no denyinq that; ~ither that or t."'e minister wot:ld ·.t.ake t:he clause out. But I want to know why it is. So, Mr.

Speaker, we will give the minister now - that is about all I have got to say. I want clause after clause. I am look.inq t:orward to the clause, for clause debate on this bill. I hope nobody is planning to get:. back out of here forChrist:nas. If you intend to have this bill passed i:J,: time to go home for Christmas, I hope nobody is planning Christmas holidays. !m.N .WINDSOR: You might change your mind and support it clause by clause, is that what you said? 3531.

November 27, 1979 Tape Ho. 1410 IB-3 M..tt. FUGHT: I may, there are good things. Before I sit down, the act tidies up the municipal affairs of Newfoundland. There are a few gcod things about it. But., Mr. Speaker, there is no need. There: is legislation in there that is going ~ hurt a lot of people and there is no need of it. It will accomplish nothing other than to force people t.o pay money they cannot afford, to lose properties that they have put equity into. And, M:r. Speaker, we will get back on this in the clause by clause debate. Thank you very much. SOME HON. ME.'1BERS: Hear, hea:::! MR. SPEAKER (MR.

SIMMS): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affai.rs and Housing. If the minister speaks now he will close t.he debate. MR. WINDSOR~ Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of al1 11et me say that this has been an extremely interesting debate. I would like to compliment bon. gent.lemen on both sides of the !:louse of Assembly. Indeed,ma.ny good points have been made by bon. gentlemen and ladies. A number of points made by hon. gentlemen opposite however certainly need some correction and/or clarification and I will certainly do my best in the brief time t.ha.t is alloted to me now to do that.

A couple of main themes, I t.'ti.nk., ran throughout all of the debate, all of the speeches made so far. one of these, I t.hi..nk, is t.~e lack of consultation. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have to say that that:. 3532

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1411 GH-l MR. WINDSOR: is the qreaeest amount of nonsense I have ever heard in my life. If any piece of legislation has ever had consultation, this has to be ie. As I said in opening remarks in introducing this bill, the Whelan Royal Commission Report - and every hon. gentleman in this House, I am sure, has a copy and has had it since 1974 - and the major provisions of this bill are based on the Nhelan Commission Report~ not everr:..'ti.ng, it is not a bible.

Let us not go astray on that. !t is not a 100 per cent, we have not:. adopted P.:V~ry recommendation or every resolution in there, but we have been guided to a great:. degree by it. We have been guided to a great degree by previous resolutions of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. Many of the resolutions being made year after year after year are incorporated in this particular bill. As well, we have had resolutions from the Associaeion of Municipal Adminis~ators in the Province. A number of points that they have raised over t..1.e past several years are included in here as well.

And, as I said earlier, we had a Federation member, the S:xe-cutive Oirec-eor of the t'ederation, sit on the drafting committee and, indeed, for a while ~~e former President of that Association sat on the committee that helped put together this legislation. Complete consultation all the way through, Mr. Speaker. How much more could i~U consult? They had a working paper, a White Paper, known as the Whelan Royal Commission, they had a representative on there. Many of the resolutions came from their own Federation meetings. What more can you clo?

And the councils, t.lte hon. gentlemen say, "Well, not al.l of the councils have been informed of it, not all the councils". Okay? On October 6th, Mr. Speaker, I went to Gander and met with the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities at their annual meeting. Now, the hen. gentleman just finished saying that not all municipalities are represented there. That:. is true. Okay? That is true. aut by fa.r the majority of the population of the Province living in incorporated communities were represented, because - HR. FLIGHT: St. John's. MR. WINDSOR: St. John's was there, Sir.

So by far the majori~ of the population of this Province that lives - and that 3533

Uovember 27, 1979 Tape No. 1411 GH-.2 MR. WINDSOR.: covers, by ~~e way, as per cent of the Province - the majority of those people are represented at the Federation meetings. Some of the smaller community councils, obviously, are not. You are talking about the communities the hen. gentleman juse referred to of 90 or 100 or 200 people. and you will find that by far and away the large majority of those people were represented at the Federation meetings. Neve~eless, Mr.

Speaker, this is a speech that I gave in Gander, and I refer ~~rouqhout to property cax, regional government; all Utose t.~inqs t.~at are in this bill were spelled out quite clearly in ~t speech at the Federation meeting in Gander, and copies of that speech have been distributed to everf municipality in the Province whether they are a member of the Federat:.ion or not. So, the basic principles of this piece of legislat:.ion have been sent out to every municipality in this Province loud and clear. SOME HON.MEMBEPS: Hear, hear! • MR.

WINDSOR: Sir, if they did not read what was sent .to them, all they had to do was read the newspaper. The Evening Telegram of OCtober 6th carried verbatim - and I thank The Telegram for the coverage they gave me on tb.at date - ca..r::ied verbatim the speech that I gave in Gander, again dealing with all the basic principles of chis particular piece of legislation 1 including mandatory property tax, including regional government, as did the Grand Falls Advertiser on October Llth. That is all there, front:. paqe of che Grand Falls Advertiser, even has a headline called "Property Tax". MR.

FLIGHT : Any references to Clause 29? MR. WINDSOR: It is all there, Mr. Speaker, every bit of it. So if hen. gent:.lemen try to say that there has been no consultation, no information has been given out, that is utter nonsense. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Sit da.m. MR. WINDSOR: One other point as it relates to consultation, Mr. Speaker. I was appointed to this portfolio on October 20th of last year. That is just a little over a year. Since that time I have met with 196 counci~s or delegations from councils - SOME HON ,. !1EMB£RS: Bear, hear! "3534

November 27, 1979 Tape No. 1411 GH-3 MR. WI~IDSOR: - ar.d i.t'l :oany cases - and 1by the way 1 64 of those, Mr. Speaker, were in their own town hall, not here in Confederation Building,but around. the Province. In many, many of those meetings, Mr. Speaker, various provisions of this proposed piece of legislation had been discussed as they relate to ~~at particular municipality or generally. So, I would. submit very clearly, Mr. Speaker, that there has been consultaeion on this p~icular piece of legislation such as no piece of legislation has ever seen before.

Now, let us t.a.lk about some of the provisions, some of the main ones. Regional goverr..ment, Mr. Speaker, hon. gentle=en opposite talk about regional government, "Oh, this is all new and surprising", and we are ttying to shove it down th.eir throats. Let me read just a nction, Mr. Speaker, of the Whelan Royal Commission Report, which deals with this particular seceion, and I q;uote from page 524, "The Commission believes that the establishment of regional structures would merely compound the many problems noted throughout the report.

It is recommended, therefore, that while particular regions may be established in the first instance with only rudiment~; func~ons, they should be developed witbin a legislative framework ~~at contemplates and~ indeed, encourages their growth as all-purpose authorities with the power to govern effectively.n And it continues, "Newfoundland does not need 3535

:~oventi:ler 21, 1979 Tape ~-to. l412 D~l .. l ana can clearly il~-dffor~ yet ano~ar category of weak,:esource starVed local authoriey".

The commJ.ssi.on concludes' 1thae tl1e legislative framework to he provided for regional ~unicipal authorities sncul~ authorize ehe scheQ.uled deleqa:c.ion< to them of t..l.te foUcwJ.ng funct.ional responsibilities at Umtas 1 locations a.nd in those !or.ns deemed appro­ priate by the govar::ment~' And i::. continues wit.'l a list:. of _?Owers and authorities tnat t.~s c~ission suggests should te vested in the reqional councils :by t.he Lieutenant.~vernor .i.n Council 1 ·.o~hc ,t..'1ey say nere 1 shou.ld have full power to ap;t.Oint 1 again on t..1.e Pasis of a feasibil..i.ey study as t.:Us pa.rticula.r piece of legislation purposes. 'that is exactly What w.u suggested and recomt:1ended by the 't~~'hel.an Royal Commission report.

An impartial report, ~. Speaker, one that bas been accepted across the Province, not something t.r.at was written by this government, not an idea that was brought for"Ward l::ly t.h.is gova.-n­ menc. we are simply going along with t:he re~dations of the report. Let us ea.lk about regional government. !or a. few momenes. What a.re talking aDout1 The no.a.. gentlemen opposit:e talk about regional government a.s if t.nis is going :o be another level of taxa.tion, anotiler level of aut.hori:ty, autonomy taken avay from m.Wlici:palities, conuol on municipalities, powers that munici­ palities - !1R.

FLIGHT: (Inaudible) pewers. MR. N. WINDSOR: No, it is noc, read it again! ..

Powers that municipalities previously had." Sir, it is very, very elea.r a.nd I think here, as I reeall,t:hat the Whelan Royal Commission repor:t. emphasizes t.b.is as well 1 and I quote a9a.in from the bottom of page 525 1 "Anci the commission wishes to emphasi:::e finally that the raeommend..ed power of the regional aut!lori ty :0 cc-orciinace tile municipal funet:.ions specified above, subject to the minister's approval ,does not ex:tend.. to the act:.ua.l performance of those functions within municipal tounda.ries except where such transfer is c.uly aut..'lor­ ize<l by mut"ola.l and foatal agreemene".

That is exactly vhat the piece 3536

November 27, l9i9 Tape t;Q. l4l~ OW - 2 !1..1... N. tJI:l.OSOR: of legislation in front of ~s purposes, Mr. Speaker, that. in a municij?ality the municipality is still pa.ramcune, st!.l.l has absolute cont:rol, the only issues that they deal with the regional council on are matters which a.re regional and by agreement. Now what. are we talking aJ::out in reqiona.l goverr.ment?

Are \o'8 talking about a formal strUcture such as were pu.J:i?OSea by my colleag-.J.e next t.o me here a couple of years ago known as aill SO 1 or are "Je ta.lki.ng about:. regional government such as we have now, such as we ba.ve in Central New­ foundland? The hon. gentlemen know well we have a reqional COWlcil, Sir, whien. operates a ...,.a1:.er supply sysum -Grand Falls, Wi.''lcisor and Sishop 1 s Falls.

They have a coanittee established of their own, not formalized by any agreement, not. gi.vinq any author­ ity under a:n.y piece of legislation bu't it is a committee Chat has qotten toqethe.r and are now operating and ma.ineai.ni.ng a water supply sytem. They need full. legal authority to d.o that, I would su99ese. There a:re other comm.itteesuiy hen. friend. from PlaCentia (Hr. Patterson) spoke a few ll'IOments ago about hi.s area 1 whue municipalities down there ha.ve requested a meeting eo look ae, perhaps a fer=. ot regional government, perhaps an amalgamation of t.he communities.

They h.ave al.re.ady have a regional concept doown there as 'oiell: t:ney ue buildir.g a magnificient S:?Orts complex down the.re. And aqai.n, :he =unicip.alities: of that area have combined togecher,have formed a committee anQ have unde..r-...a.ken a very, ve.ry expensive project ,and. an excellent project 1 wllich is bainq handled in a very good way ma.xiatizing benefits from lx:H:h canadA Works fundJ.ng, provincial. funding an.d local funding, In every respect, Mr~ Speaker, that is a. reqional council. We have another one here in St. John's, it is called the St.

John's Metro .eoara.~~ey are operaUng a reqiona.l. water supply, a $35 million vate.r supply on behalf of the region - MR. L. STIRLntG: .'i.R. N. WL'IDSOR: What is the recommendation {.inaudible). on which, Sir? 3537

~ovember 27, 1979 ;m.. L. STIRLING: MR. :1. WINDSOR: HR. L. STIRLING: Tape No. 1412 ow .. J On the St. John's ;,tet:o aoard. Tbat it be d.isba.ruied? (Inaudible) Royal Commission. ..:,'iR• N. WINDSOR: Metro Board to.Ould disappear bf the reqiona.~ counci~ came in. Wha.t is the dif!'erence in t;he Meero Board as it now operat.es a.nd a ,reqiona.l council? One difference, Mr. Speakel!'; the Metro aoar:i is appointed., a .. regional council would be elected by due process,. 'rhat is the ciifference! SOME HON. MEMBERS 1 M.tt. L. STIRLING: HR. ~J.

WINDSOR: on to a eouple of o~"ler aspeces. _?CME S:OU • MEMBEFS : MR. s .. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAK:E:R (SIMMS) : MR. L. STI:U.ING: Hear, hear: Well, ~~e minister (inaudible). Mr. Spea.ke:r, I would like to carry Oh, oh! Yes, qo ahead.,. h'hy not? '!'he hon. member for sonavi.sta Uor-:.."1. I have no quarrel with the minist:er 1 By the way, I think the minister is doinq a good job and he should separate out - AN HON. ME..'iBER: He is speaking !or himself now .. MR. L. STIRLING: I sai~ I think ehe minister is doing a qood job and ne should. sepa.raee out the minis1:.e..r from this piece of legislation.

Now you just said that the recccmnendat.ions of the Royal Commission was by mutual consen1:. and you .J.sked 'tihat we a.re objecting to. If you JUSt read. sec'Cion 299 of the Act, .:i.r.

Minister, "In an order mil.de as"t.abli.shing a region or annexing an a.rea. to a region the Lieutena.nt-Govarnor in COuncil may provide for the adjustment of a.ssees and liabilities between tile towns, commWlities a.r..d regions• - nee by mutual consent,t:..,_e Lieutenant-Governor in Council may decree. 'tfben you said earlier that you would not be taking away any authori t.y 1 tha. t is the very point we are trying to make there. Would you like co comment on that? !".R. SPEAKER: Hon • minis 1:.er • 3538

!lovember 27, 1979 Tape ~o. 1412 MR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. gen~leman has obviously got to read t.'i.e Whole Bill.l~e is taking it: out of cont:ext again a.s :1e di.Q in many of his remarks t.."lat he made when he spoke 1 and ! will cane to those shortly. What you are talking about here are reqional services t.h.ae the Lieutenant-Governor in CoWlcil obviousl:r would have authority to establish e.."le control over regional services. ;;hat ! spoke a.lx:lu: a moment aqo was local services whereby a regional cOuncil 3539

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1413 !B-l MR. ·,;nrosoR: :nay 1 if it is deemed advisable and by mutual consent, provide services to municipalities that the municipality would normally, ordinarily and even under these circumstances provide. That may well be such thi:lgs as tax .bill.i.nq, for instance, where you have a number of municipalities .. Let us take the St • .rohn 's region - a good example. We have sixteen or seventeen municipalities in the region that was proposed to be covered by the St.

John's Urban Region, bY the Northeast Avalon Regional cmmcil. tt may well be that that regional counc~ could set up a computer programme for sending out tax bills and doing all the calcula.t:.ions,which woul.Q be far :nore economical than the present system where we have sixteen town halls wich sixteen t.own clerks and sixteen other people in the municipalities sending out tax bills, :aa.ki.ng them up by hand and this sort of thing. That is the sort of service that a regional council could sell if the municipality choose to take pa.rc. in it.

And t.hat is not something that is a.ffected by this pa.rticu.l.a..r piece of legislation. That is done by mutual consent, Mr. Speaker. Now, we talked about property tax. !;ion. gentlemen opposite are scared to death of property tax, t..'lis great and wonderous sy