Manitoba Hansard — 2 June 1987 (Sitting 52, 33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 21 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Pres enting Petitions . . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . Prese nting Reports by Standing and Sp ecial Comm ittees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I wish to invite members of the Legislature to join me at a break fast conference at 8:00 a.m. on Tuesday, June 2, 1987, at the Holida y Inn do wntown to hear a message of importance to all of us.

Our hosts will be Transplant International (Canada), a lay organization formed two years ago to promote public awareness of the increasing need for organ donations. Vital organ transplants are now accepted therapy for certain types of organ failure. The federal-provincial working group on organ transplant centres, which has been meeting for the past three years, has suggested that Winnipeg become a transplant centre to serve Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The group reports that Canada already spends $8 mill ion annu ally on transplants for Canadians in other countries, principally in the United States.

We are at present studying the working group's report through a committee composed of representatives of the teaching hospitals, the univ ersit y, the Manitoba Health Services Commission, and Dr. J. Barwinsky , Director of Manitoba's Cardiac Program, is chairman of the committee. Next week, we will be bringing Fir st Reading of The Human Tissue Act. I am confident that all members will be supportive of this timely and progressive piece of legislation.

But, before we can consider expanding our role and becoming a vital organ transplant centre, we must cooper ate with other provinces in the development of a successfu l organ procurement program. Although the number of Canadians donating organs incr eased by 13 percent in 1985, in Manitoba the increase was 54 percent. There are still 2,500 Canadians waiting for kidneys. If only 50 percent of potential donors gave their organs, there would be enough to go around.

Mada m Spe aker , I am urging member s of this Legislature to attend this breakfast meeting to hear reports from physicians, from vital organ recipients, and from the families of donors and, having heard, to become role models by signing organ donor cards, and by using their influence to urge others to do so. Thank you, Mada m Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Mada m Speaker . I'd like to thank the Mi nister of Health for this statement and urge all members of the Legislature to attend this conference next Tuesday.

I want to say that I'm very aware of how important an organ transplant program is, and I'd like to ind icate to the House that I was fortunate to be, in my capacity as a registered nurse working at the Health Sciences Centre, a part of the kidney transplant team when the first kidney transplant was done, and looked after that first recipient here in Manitoba. It was a very rew arding experience, and we look forward to participating next week in the conference. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I beg leave to table the Annual Report for 1985-86 for the Department of Municipal Affairs. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 38,

An Act to amend The Law Society Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe du Barreau. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I di rect the attention of honourable members to the galler y, where we have 14 students from Grade 8 from the Laporte School under the dire ction of Mr. Bob Evenmo and Miss Kathy Sparre. The school is located in Laporte, Min nesota, in the Uni ted States of America. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MTX - $20 million loss MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

My question is to the Minis ter responsible for the Manitoba Te lephone System. In view of the fact that at committee this morning we were told that the reason that MTX could not collect on the $12 million of receivables that SADL, Saudi Arabia Datacom Ltd., had from Sheik Al Bassam's company, Datacom, was because MTX personnel had been totally involv ed in the operation and in fact were responsible for the operation of Datacom, the sheik 's company, sales, business transactions and so on; and in view of the fact that Mr. Curtis, the acting CEO of 2234

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 MTX, said that he didn't believe and there was no evidence to indi cate that Sheik Al Bassam had himself benefited from any of the operations of SADL or Datacom, hadn't benefited financial ly, hadn't in fact made money; and in view of the fact that we have written off some $20 million of losses in this scandalous Saudi Arabian misadventure, where did the money go? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter responsible for MTS. HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speaker , I would hope that the Member for Tuxedo, the Leader of the Opposition, would read the Coopers and Ly brand Report, which was produced to the commit tee this morning. Coopers and Ly brand, on November 21, when the first report was made public, ind icated major losses in three of the projects, or two of the Saudi Arabian projects, major losses of mo ney, and the Cezar Industry projects. I'm pleased we have a negotiated settlement out of those two bad deals; we have said that they are bad deals. We are pleased that Mr.

Curtis, with the assistance of Coopers and Ly brand, have assessed the situation, have assessed the assets, have assessed the legal situation, and have come to an agreement that they have recommended to us and that we have supported in terms of getting out of those bad deals for the Te lephone System of Manitoba. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, I regret that the Mi nister hasn't answered my question. What I'm saying to him is that we have lost $20 million.

At committee tod ay, we were told that this did not benefit the sheik in any way and, in fact, that we couldn't colle ct on receivables from the sheik's company because it was our personnel at MTX who had totally run those operations overseas, including his comp any, Datacom Division of Al Bassam International. Madam Speak er, my question is that there was inde ed $20 million lost in that whole operation. How did the los ses occur, and who was responsible for those losses? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speak er, today in comm ittee, the critic for the Te lephone System asked the same question of Mr.

Curtis, and he gave an answer to the commi ttee that he had assessed the situation and he had identified what assets were left in Saudi Arabia. He had access to the books that the members opposite said that he wouldn't have. He had assessed the situation with the books, with the assets, with the MTX situation and there were, in fact, losses in Saudi Arabia. Madam Spea ker, we have said publicl y, in Februa ry, that we will potentially lose $27.4 million; in fact, the Member for Pembina has stated it's going to be $30 million or $32 million.

The settlements achie ved are within the amount of money that we have publicly said will be lost in MTX, as identified by Coopers and Ly brand, and identified by Arthur Andersen. Madam Speake r, we have said publicly that the Saudi Arabian situation was a bad deal and the Coopers and Ly brand, assessing the bad deal and assessing the situation with Mr. Curtis, have re comme nded the settlement that was provided to the House and to the commit tee of the Legislature this morning. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speake r, Mr.

Curtis did inde ed indi cate that he assessed the assets and he valued the assets as of the current time, as of last fall. He did in deed ind icate that there was no money available, Madam Speak er, but he did not ind icate where did this $20 million end up. Whose pockets were lined? Who benefited? How did the $20 million happen to be lost? What happened to it? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker , the issue of potential criminal wrongdoing is being investigated by the RCMP. We said this morning that we would prefer that the RCMP move qu icker.

We would prefer that the issue of the potential criminal wrongdoing be concluded, to address the potential criminal wrongdoing. Madam Speak er, we would have liked the RCMP to have completed an investigation, just like I'm sure, Mr. Mu lrone y would prefer th at Andr e Bissonnette's investigation would be comple ted by now, in terms of lining his pockets. We would like to know but, Madam Speak er, we do not control the speed and the time of the RC MP investigation and we are awaiting their report. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, Mr. Curtis ind icated that he is satisfied that the sheik did not benefit.

He is satisfied that all of the responsibility centered on the MTX personnel, and the MTX operation over there. My question is, those are people under the jurisdiction of this Mi nister - can he not tell us where that money ended up being squandered, and who might have benefited, and what happened to the $20 million? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is repetitious. I T and T - change of thrust to overcome foreign deficit MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Acting Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tec hnol ogy.

Madam Speak er, on Tuesday in Estimates, I was appalled to view a Min ister in total disarray and out of touch with his department. Madam Speaker, we are one of only three provinces that has a foreign trade deficit, a deficit in excess of $1 billion and, if we leave out grain sales, that is our debt. Is the Min ister . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, I've got to let him know what's coming up. Wo uld the Acting Min ister suggest to the Mi nister changing the strategic thrust of his department to overcome those unacceptable and devastat ing deficits?

And I might add, Madam Speaker , that this sector deficit has doubled since 1983. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urabl e Mi nister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Spea ker, in answer to that speech, I would ind icate, although I was not at the 2235

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 Estimates review, I can be assured however on the basis of past performance, that the Min ister of Ind ustry, Trade and Te chnology was not in disarray. He probably handled the Member for Portage excellently , which is why he's asking the question tod ay, rather than asking it in Estima tes when he could have asked it, or asking it when the Min ister is actually here.

I will certainly take the question as notice but, Madam Speak er, let the record show that all the economic indicators for Manitoba indicate that our performance is excel lent versus Cons ervative provi nces lik e Saskatchewan. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind all honourable memb ers that question period is not a time for debate. Manufacturing sector - restoration of lost jobs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie with a supplementa ry. MR. E. CONNERY: I have a new question, Madam Speak er, to the same Acting Min ister.

Madam Speaker , we have lost 13 ,000 jobs in the manufacturing sector since 19 81. In 1985, we had a trade deficit in end products (inedible) of over $1.6 billion ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question? May I remind the honourable member that questions are not to be speeches, however brief, and question period is a time for obtaining information, not giving it? The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, with a question! MR. E.

CONNERY: Madam Speaker , my question to the Acting Min ister is: Would he sugg est some changes to the Min ister, so that we can restore these jobs in Manitoba, so that when Limestone, North Portage Development and the Core area have all run out, we won't be in a wilderness out looking for jobs, 13,0 00 jobs that we've lost in man ufactu ring? HON.

W PARASIUK: Madam Speak er, I'll certainly refer the Min ister of Industry Trade and Technology to the comments of the Member for Portage, but he should remember back to the period 19 77- 19 81 when this province was in disarray under Cons ervative leadership, when we went from a position of being one of the leading economies in the country in 19 75-76-77 and, when that motley crew took over, we went to the last position in the count ry. We would not want to go back the Cons ervative ways and be No. 10; we want to follow New Democratic Party Government ways and be No. 1, Madam Spea ker.

Inter-City Gas - purchase from Alberta for large customers MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Kildonan. 2236 MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. My question is to the Min ister of Enery and Mines. A recent report has it that Inter-City Gas has told its large customers and suggested to them that they can purchase their gas directly from Alberta or suppliers in Alberta. I'm wondering, is there a position on the part of the ministry on this. What effect will this have on rates? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Energy and Min es. HON. W.

PARASIUK: Mada m Sp eaker, we have indic ated that we want all people to have the opportunity of getting fairer and lower gas prices, and large users of natural gas have indeed the opportunity of going out and directly purchasing natural gas in Alberta or other provinces, and getting that natural gas at rates that are significantly lower than the rates that are presently being offered. They would be in the order probably of $1.75 or $1.8 0; these are significantly lower rates.

We believe that is good for Manitoba if those people do have an opportunity of getting lower rates, Madam Speak er, and we want to ensure that the system operates in such a way that those people have the opportunity of getting fairer and lower gas prices. Inter-City Gas - opportunity for small users MR. M. DOLIN: Madam Speaker , as a residential homeowner , I am paying considerably more than that. I'm wondering will I have the same opportunity as the large suppliers to go and get my gas at a reasonable rate from Alberta di rectly. HON. W.

PARASIUK: Ma da m Sp eak er, th at's an excellent question because that is the heart of the problem facing the whole natural gas system in this coun try. Large users may have the opportunity of getting cheaper gas. The way this system is structured right now, small residential users don't. There are some 200,000 consumers of natural gas in Manitoba; 199, 900- plus aren't the large users. They're residential families, famil ies and households, small busi nessm en, commercial operators, Madam Speak er, and those people should have the same opportunity of getting fair and cheap natural gas as any large user.

It is the position of this government that we will reform the system to ensure that that takes place. Esprit Vacations Limited - local complaints MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you, Madam Speaker, to the Mini ster responsible for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In consideration of the collapse of the To ronto-based Esprit Vacations Limited, filed bankrup tcy last week, doing travel business to the tune of approxi mately $25 million, specializing in European coach and ski holida ys, as well as the exclu sive Canadian sales agents for

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 Carnival Cruise Lines of Miami , Florida, available to consumers in Manitoba , has the Minister 's departme nt had any complaints locally, or will he not be aware of these complaints until after the creditors ' meeting of June 2? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I thank the honou rable member for the question . This morning I met with the Association of Travel Agents and we had a lengthy discussion in respect to the recent demise of the agency the honourable member refers to.

We are very concerned about the extent to which travel agencies in Manitoba have brought to the attention of customers the availability of cancellation or default insurance in respect to travel plans . There is an existing insurance available and we're not satisfied there has been enough initiative on the part of the agencies to make that information available to all of the customers and ensure that people can protect themselves against the defaults that have occurred and the most recent one that did occur .

I believe there have been one or more complaints brought to the attention of the Consumers Bureau , and we have been addressing those problems. Legislation re default insurance MR. G. DUCHARME: My question, to the same Minister . Considering that Ontario's 1,562 consumers are affected by this particular collapse, and considering that Quebec, British Columbia legislation will also protect their consumers through legislation, will this Minister now bring in such a legislation to protect the consumers from this type of insecurity? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the honourable member and members generally will recall the discussion in this House about the concerns to protect consumers of travel plans . While there are some people who are urging less regulation in society - and generally they're from the Conservative element in society - nevertheless, from time to time, they urge greater regulation . We have indicated a concern in respect to the size of the industry in Manitoba.

They're relatively small enterprises , small businesses, and to invoke a very rigorous insurance scheme on those agencies could well mean the demise of that kind of agency in Manitoba . I met with the association , indicated the concerns of legislators generally to ensure that consumers are better protected . They have taken up the concern; they have initiated the basis for an insurance program . Now it's a question of making sure that individual consumers are aware of the insurance protection, and utilizing it.

Farm School Tax Assistance Program - rebate to match Ontario MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you , Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. The recent Farm School Tax Assistanc e Pro gram announced in the Manitoba budget amoun ts to a saving of about 1/8 of what the farmers are now paying in property taxes, Madam Speaker . Ontario in its recent budget this week announced 100 percent rebate on property taxes that farm ers pay in that province in 1988, Madam Speake r.

I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he's considering a similar program for Manitoba farmers in 1988, to put them on a level playing field with farm ers in Ont ario? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture . HON. 8. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, one should also compare the size of agriculture in Onta rio to the rest of the economy , and in terms of the signi ficance of agriculture to that province . Nevertheless, Madam Speaker, I'm wondering on which farms the honou rable member is comparing in his analysis that 1/8 of the taxes are , in fact, being covered by this program.

Madam Speaker , we have made , as we have said , a major step in the area of education tax reform. There is additional work going on between the Minister of Education , the Minister of Municipal Affairs , Departments of Agriculture involved in those reviews , and the entire system is being reformed . But , Madam Speaker , a $12 million contribution to the farm economy , in terms of our share of our Budget , when our budgets have been increasing by 10 percent and 20 percent per year, othe r provinces have been cutting agricultural budgets . We have not - we have been consistent in our spending.

We recognize that , short of having several billions of dollars put into the agricultural economy in this province everything else will be a difference . MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. Interest Rate Reduction Program - total amount of fee MACC is assessing MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you , Madam Speaker . A new question to the same Minister. Madam Speaker , about the Interest Rate Reduction Program that the Minister has introduced also in the Budget.

In order for farmers to achieve the 8 percent interest rebate in the future, all MACC clients have to pay an adminstration fee upfront plus an interest rate reduction fee , Madam Speaker. This has meant that all MACC clients are faced with substantially higher payments in 1987 than what they paid in 1986. I'd like to ask the Ministe r, when all the inter est rate reduct ion fees are ad ded up for all farmers , what is the total amount of additional interest rate grab the MACC is putting on the backs of farme rs in Manitoba this summe r? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I wish the honou ra ble member would check his facts and do his analysis properly . 2237

Thursday , 21 May, 1987 Madam Spea ker, there are five options presented to farmers in which to achieve the int erest rate reduction. There are a number of choices that are presented in the letters there. As I said during the Estimates, Madam Spea ker, depending on the length of the loan, length of repayment time tha t is still remai ning on the mortgage, will determine the amount of benefit or no benefit to farmers, depending which of those options they choose. Madam Spe aker, a reduction from 13 percent to 8 percent, in terms of that total amount, is a 5 percent in terest rate reduction.

In fact, one of the press people yes terday asked me about some of the samples. I provided examples - in fact, I can provide it for my honourable friends - examples of - and I'm going from memory - an $88,000 loan, a reduction of some, between $60,000 and $70,000 of reduction in interest payments over the life of that loan. But, as I said in Estimates, it depends on the interest rate paid, the length of mortgage left to be repaid, will be the amount of benefit that a farmer will gain, and not as the honourable member tries to port ray. MR. G.

FIND LAY: Madam Spea ker, given that for all five options the producer is paying more in 1987 than 1986; given that, Madam Speak er, there is a 21 percent red uction in net realized income for farmers of Manitoba, how does the Minis ter expect farmers to come up with this additional money in these hard times, in order to achieve this 8 percent interest which the government is contributing absolutely nothing to in terms of dolla rs. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , that assertion is inaccurate. If a farmer wishes to put all the cash and to achieve the entire savings then that would be a cash outlay .

Madam Spea ker, we have not asked any farmer that they put up all the cash. If a farmer is in that great financial shape that he can put up the cash, all the greater benefit to him. But we have also recognized in the program, Madam Speaker , that all farmers do not have the cash. There are four other options in which farmers can choose, Madam Speake r, and the reduction in payments from Ye ar One, if they do not pay cash, is an absolute reduction in payments other than the cash payment.

Meech Lake accord - effect of agreement on principles of Native self-government MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for River Heights. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS : Thank you, Madam Speak er. My ques tion, Mada m Speaker , is to the Min ister responsible . . . SOME HONOUR ABLE MEMBER S : Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Member for River Heights has the floor . MRS. S. CAR STAIRS : Thank you, Madam Speak er. 2238 My question is to the Min ister responsible for Native Affairs.

Since the Meech Lake accord the nation has been deliberating the meaning and the implications of this agreement, and I would like to ask the Minis ter, sinc e it will be of such grave conc ern on such constit utiona l matters as th ose of Na tive self government, if the Mini ster of Northern Affairs has been in touch with leaders of the Native communities of this province regarding the accord and its potential effect on the principle of self-gov ernment? MADAM SPEAKER: Th e Hono u rable Mi nister of Northern Affairs. HON. E. HARPER: Wel l, I thank that member for that question.

I have discussed this with my staff, the senior Native advisor , the director of Native secretariat, to discuss the issue on the matter of self-government and the Meech Lake accord, and also possibly this being a discussion with the First Minis ters at a future meeting, and also this was brought up with the Premier , and also the Attorney-General. Native self-government - will not get approval of all 10 provinces MRS. S.

CAR STAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minis ter, in his di scussions with the various groups, such as his own staff and the Native Secretariat , and I would hope with the communities that will be affected, is it their opinion that Native self-government, as a principle, will in fact not get the approval of all 10 provinces and that he could not get the approval of seven? MADAM SPEAKER: Could the honourable member please reph rase her question so it doesn't seek an opinion? MRS. S.

CAR STAIRS : Did the communities affected give advice to the Min ister that this would in fact be the case, that it would not result in the ever attainment of self-g overnment in that we couldn't get the agreement of seven? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The Member for River Heights is labouring under a misapprehension - not the first, and I suspect not the last. And that is, that the draft proposed change to the amending formula in any way re quir es th at the constitu tionali zation, or the amendment to

Section 35, is affected by the change in the amending formula, or the proposed change in the amending formula; it is not. Meech Lake accord - no abrogation of the problems with respect to self-government MR S. S. CA R STAIR S: Ma dam Sp eak er, to the Attorney-General, since he seems to want to answer questions on Native Affairs, can the Attorney-General assure this House that there will be no abrogation of

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 the problems affecting self-government as a result of the Meech Lake accord? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . HON. E. HARPER: I can assure the member that our position will be not to abrogate our position in respect to self-government. I might add that because of the lack of a commitment at the Constitutional Conference , doesn't indicate that it wouldn 't be recognized that there is aboriginal self-government.

As a matter of fact, many of the provinces do support aborigina l self government, even B.C. who was against the proposal, had a suggestion to support self-government. So, I believe in due time we would have a recognition by all governments that there will be self-government in all aboriginal communities . MACC - buy out of face value of principal and receive prorated refund MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture, the question dealing with the Interest Rate Reduction Program .

Madam Speaker, in reading the material that has been sent to the clients of MACC that can qualify for this program , I notice that there is a line saying: "For your information , the interest rate reduction fee will not be refundable in whole or in part ." My question to the Minister of Agriculture: Can people who have taken benefit of this program , can they buy out the face value, or the princ ipal of the loan, during the course of how many years are left on the loan, can they buy out the principal amount and still receive some of a prorated refund of some of the interest they put up front?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, in that letter , as well, there are a number of suggestions made to clients . Madam Speaker, the honourable member puts the question in a way that in fact forces one to only deal with their purposes, but does not cover the entire situation . Some of the information , Madam Speaker, that is suggested to farmers , should they need assistance, they are to contact their MACC field representative. We also recommend that you seek the advice of your accountant or financial adviser in determining the benefits of the program to you .

Along with the five options that are presented to farmers under that program, there is an actual

schedule of payments and benefits, or no benefits depending on the loan, as I've said, and the length of time of the mortagage remaining, length of payment to the mortgage remaining, that is there. Madam Speaker, in terms of the benefits that are there, in terms of the loan of the benefits -(lnterjection) Madam Speaker, the honourable member is asking a question whether a portion of the benefits can be bought out. Madam Speake r, the option is to buy down to a percent .

If the honourabl e member is saying we want to now buy to 10 percent or some other level, we would have to take that under advisement and look at that question. We felt, and if he's suggesting that now people want to buy down to 10 percent or a portion of their buy down, the buy-down portion, the loan that they take to make their buy down.or their cash paymen, is in fact charged back at the current borrowing rate of MACC. MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker, this is the Minister's program and he's just given us clear evidence that he doesn 't have an understanding of what it is that he's put before the people of Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, the question was very specific . Some of these loans are out for 25 years and, hopefully, good times will return to agriculture and, maybe in the space of four or five years , some of these clients will want to buy the face value of the loan, they'll want to return all of the payment.

Will they, indeed, be allowed a refund on some of this major interest that they may put forward now , the Interest Rate Reduction Program, because indeed, they're buying back interest today and paying it in advance so to speak. Will they be allowed a refund on that, in spite of the fact that the letter says: For your information, the interest rate reduction fee will not be refundable in whole or in part? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, at any time that there will be a refund, there would have to be a new program announced whether there would be a new program.

But, Madam Speaker, the member alleges that there are no benefits, there are major payments . One of the options , Madam Speaker, provides benefits from Day One . It was alleged by his colleague, the Honourable Member for Virden. Madam Speaker , I will provide one example, a loan of $94,000 with a remaining term on that loan of 19 years to be paid, the existing payments are $14,034 .51. Madam Speaker, members opposite said that initia l payments from Year One are, in fact, higher . Many people have to pay more.

One option that is in the program allows the $14,000 payments to be reduced to $12,906 a year, for a net benefit over the life of that loan of almost $34,000 a year. Madam Speaker , how can they say there are no benefits under that program? Highway 75 - twinning of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I have a new question. I direct it to the Minister of Highways. Given that yesterday the Member for Lakeside requested that the government not allocate $700,000 to the construction of Highway 67, I request of the Minister of Transportation , whether or not he would 2239

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 consider allocating that $700,000 to the twinning of Hig hway 75, Madam Speak er, and support Mr. Mi chael Resch in his endeavours to convince this government to give the twinning of that high way a higher prior ity. MADAM SPE AKER: The Hon ourable Mini ster of Hig hways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Spea ker, we cannot treat highw ay upgrading on such a frivolous basis, as to when an MLA decides that he doesn't want the mo ney, that that isn't going to be spent there.

It is based on the fact that for 10 years that particular road has been identified as being in a condition that was unsafe and that needs to be impr oved . Over that time, the situation has deteriorated, and of course it's to the stage now where urgent action has to be taken. I should mention to the Member for Morris that, if he had done some background on this, he would know that we cannot allocate another $700,000 to High way 75 at this particular time, even though that's the incorrect amount that's needed for Hig hway 67.

The reason we can't do it is because we have to acquire the land for the next sect ion, and there is money in the budget for that at this time. So we can't just go ahead and just start grading before we have the land, Madam Speaker . Multicultural Task Force - purpose of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I'd like to direct some questions to the Minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Recreation. Can the Min ister inform this House and the people of Manitob a about the purpose of this Multicultur al Task Force in Manitoba?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion. HON. J. WA SYLYCIA- LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I'm pl eased to be able to elab orate on the announc ement made today for the establishment of an eight-member task force to develop a comprehensive policy on multiculturalism. SOME HONOURABL E MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. WA SYLYCIA -LEIS: Madam Speaker , it's clear that this is another difficult issue for members opposite. Madam Speaker , we on this side of the House have a very strong commitment to the development of multiculturalism.

I think it's an appropriate question to be add ressed in this Chamber and I'd like to inform members opposite - since they may have something to learn from this - about our efforts in this area. Madam Speak er, this task force has been set up under the abl e and expert leadership of Dr. Neil McDonald and Dr. Claudia Wright. This commit tee will review existing policies; it will consult with the broader community and it will make recommendations back to this government.

This province has a strong record on ethnocultural matters and a leadership position across this countr y, and through this announcement and the establishme nt of this task force, we are committed to the enha ncement of cultural div ersity in our society, to the eradication of racism and discrimination, and to the creation of greater opportunities and fairness for all of our div erse member groups. AIDS - Dr. Fast prevented from participating in public debate MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHE LSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Min ister of Health.

Given that the key to preventing the spread of AIDS is education and public information, can the Min ister inform the House whether Dr. Fast, the most informed person in the Department of Health, was prevented from participating in a public debate to present full and factual in formation on AID S to concerned Manitobans? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ma dam Speaker , the honourable member is absolutely right. It was suggested to Dr.

Fast that, because a statement will be made early next week and also that we'r e organizing a seminar for all the members, that it would be better, before the di scussions, to wait as to the official polic y, at the request of this member and other members that there will be a statement made presenting the government's position on that. I want to emph asize again that if we are serious about this, I think we've got as much as possible to take this out of the realm of partisan politics.

I think that it is education, and it's not going to serve any purp ose in arguing and debating and also in doing anything that might panic the people of this province and Canada. I also asked my Deputy Mini ster, with some of the concerns that I had after listening to the news yesterd ay, to get in touch with the Federal Government and suggest that they should call a meeting as soon as possible to get the dif ferent provinces together . We do not have the resources to start reinventing the wheel in every province and that we have a policy and work together on that.

The Federal Government has accepted and suggests that it would be di scussed at the coming meeting of the Deputy Mi nisters in a couple of weeks, in June some time. AIDS - concerns of health care workers re unknown carriers of virus MRS. B. MITCHE LSON: Given that the government is going to come out with a stat ement, a policy statement by next week, is the Min ister of Health including, or will he be addressing, in that policy 2240

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 statement the concerns of health care workers who are caring for patients who may be carrying the AIDS virus unknowingly to themselves, and to the caregivers and will he be advocating a screening policy for those admitted to hospital, a blood-screening policy? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I suggest that the honourable member wait till the statement is made and then, also as stated, I intend to organize a semin ar, or a day where we would have the most knowledgeable people in this province to discuss with the MLA's and the members of the press all our policies and any other suggestion that any members might want to make. Gambling consultant - purpose of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speak er, a question to the Minister responsible for the Lotteries Foundation, of which I've given her prior notice.

Could she ind icate or inform the House, Madam Sp eak er, whethe r she is bringing to Ma nitoba a gambling consultant or operator from Lake Tahoe and, if so, for what purpo se? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mi ni ster responsible for Lotteries. HON. J. WA SYLYCIA -LEIS: Thank you, Ma dam Speak er, and I'd like to thank the Member for St. Norbert for raising this matter with me earli er. As I confirmed to the Member for St.

Norbert privately , we, the Lotteries Foundation has hired a consultant from Lake Tahoe to train staff at the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation on the operation of a new game that is being introduced at the casino, and the name of the game is called Pai-Gow and apparently is quite popular with many people who enjoy going to the casino and it was just more cost-effective and efficient to bring the consultant here for the training rather than to send all the staff to Lake Tahoe. Gambling consultant - cost to Foundation MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Mi nister ind icate how long the consultant will be here, and at what cost to the Lotteries Foundation? HON. J. WA SYLYCIA -LEIS: The consultant, whose name by the way is Mr. Bob Yee, will be here for the months of - around a period of August and September of this year. The cost for the total course should be no more than $1 5,000; however, it's estimated - and we can never be certain about these estimations - because of the popularity of this game, it could raise roughly $7,500 a day. SOME HONOURABL E MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. 2241 Gambling - expansion of casino days MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speak er. A final supplementary question to the Min ister. Could she ind icate wh ether the hir ing of this consultant is in itself an ind ication that the number of casino days will be expanded in the city? HON. J. WA SY LYCIA -LEIS: Not at all, Madam Speaker. Evaluation programs - consideration of long-term jobs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Urban Affairs. HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speak er, the Member for River Heights asked questions on the Core Area Training Program and asked for evaluation reports. I have a copy for her and the critic from the Opposition, of a number of reports from the Core Area Training Program in terms of the training. Gerontology Community Workers Program - wasted due to lack of employment HON. G. DOER: In terms of the specific question on gerontology studen ts, I ind icated at the time of graduation, we had a real lag and some potential failure in some of the hiring of tho se people.

I am happy to report that of the 17 graduated, 11 are now working in the field, which was higher than at the time of graduation. One has moved to Brazil, one is working in another area, one has gone to social work program, one is in medical school and two are still looking for employment and are going to school and being subsidi zed by some tuition fees for the Core to keep them current, so I'l l table those reports. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: May I direct the attention of honourable mem bers to the galle ry, where we have 20 students, ages 16 to 24, from the Yes Canada School, under the dir ection of Mr. J.G. Shin goose. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Mini ster of Housing. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this after noon. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Nia kwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I beg leave to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed)

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNAT S: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker , on a news release dated May 15, 1987, unde r the Department of Agricultur e, Commu nications, it starts off: "Manitobans love the taste of fresh vine-ripened tomatoes." Ma dam Sp eak er, in the early part of Ma rch, some where around the 7th or Bth of March, when I decided that I would share my love of toma toes with all members of the Leg isla tur e and some other Man itobans, I thought that at this point, when I was planting the seeds in the vermiculite and all the soil that is required, that I would think very nicely of when it came time to present the toma toes to the members of the Legislature.

This year, in addi tion to the memb ers of the Legislature, I have presented some tomatoes to the press gallery and to some of the staff that now works in this Cham ber. Madam Speak er, there will be a contest later on in the year, when the fruits of the tomato plant will be judged for roundness, maturi ty, and colour , and I will be obliged, at that time, to give a non-biased view and to select the winn er, which I know will be on this side of the House. In addition, Madam Speak er, I represent an area of South St.

Vital, where there are many greenhouses and there's quite a gr eenhous e indus try , as well as throughout the whole area outside of the City of Winnipeg, and it was through the association of one of my friends out there that the geraniums were supplied from Gary Paul's Greenhouse. I was given a little bit of action from my seatmate, who said, where's my tomato?

Madam Speak er, I said to her that there was her tomato right in front of her, it just had a red flower on it; but I will be very pleased, when the time comes, to enjoy the fruits of the tomato later -0n in the year, and I hope that you all will enjoy the effort that was put into starting these tomatoes from seed. Now it's your turn. I thank you very much, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , in the name of the members on this side of the House and indeed all the members of this House, I'm sure we would like to thank the honourable member for his kind gesture again. I think it was very appropriate, very nice that he should make this presentation at this time. I' ve noticed that in his usual thoughtful man ner, he provided the members of the female sex with beautiful flowers, and the male sex with the flower plant. I wonder if there is any ind ication or message in the fact that both his leader and my leader received one of each. I do have a concern though, Madam Speaker.

I wonder also what the reason is that you have a much larger flower, and I wonder if that could be some kind of a conflict of interest. Seriously , Madam Speaker , we're anxious for this contest that he mentioned. I think we should win it on this side, and thank you again for your kind gesture. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, on behalf of the Official Opposition in the Legislature, I want to add my words of thanks to the Member for Niakwa, and I want to assure the Member for St.

Bonif ace that the reason that I have one of each is because I'm equally supportive in concerns of the needs of men and women in society in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, I just wanted to put on the record that, when we told the Member for Niakwa that he ought to bring some tomatoes for the press galler y, this wasn't what we had in mind . Madam Speaker , we do appreciate . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: It has nothing to do with you being a great breeder. MR. G. FILMON: I won't touch that one.

Madam Speaker, I do want to join with all the members in thanking the Member for Niakwa for his continuing generosity and his thoughtfulness today. MADAM SPEAKER: I would like to add my thanks to the Honourable Member for Niakwa who again asked my permission to deliver his plants, which I readily agreed to . I would just like to remind him that we are still working for bread and roses. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COW AN: I sense, Madam Speak er, after some quick consultations that there is an inclination on the part of members to forego Private Memb ers' Hour today and to continue on in the Commit tee of Supply debate, by leave. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) HON. J. COW AN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, Madam Speak er, seconded by the Mi nister of Labour , that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with th e Honourable Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for the Department of Community Servi ces; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: The commit tee will come to order . When we adjourned last, we were on 2.(b)(1). Mr. Min ister, do you want a word or two? HON. R. PENNER: Ye sterd ay, the Member for St.

Norbert asked for some information and I'm pleased 2242

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 to be able to provide most of it today and, where I'm not able to provide the information tod ay, it will be forthcoming. First of all, a question was asked at the beginning with respect to the cost of the Hecia Conference and I'll provide the member with a breakdown showing a total of $5,0 1 5.00. The Member for St. Norbert asked about the cost reduction in the previous fiscal year and I'm providing the member with a detail showing from which appropriation the amounts came.

I can tell him or at least corroborate or verify the information I gave yesterd ay, name ly, that all of this mone y, virtually all of this mone y, was found in salaried dollars in terms of keeping positions vacant for X weeks or months, as the case may be. As a result of that effort, a net saving as shown was attained, not without of course some loss in service, but not by cutting out programs or not by in any way severely impacting the public. The member asked some questions yesterday about the Victim Witness Assistance Program.

I have some information and I also have a set of materials for the member giving an update on the videotaping project and on the Victim Imp act Statement Project. The material on the videotaping project includes the first quarterly progress report to June 19 86 and the second prog ress report July 1986 to February 1987. He'll probably find there is more information than he ever wanted to know or I ever wanted to know and so on the Victim Impa ct Statement.

With respect to Affirmative Action, I have a set of figures that compa res - ok ay, I don't know if this is calendar or fiscal -'85-86 to '86-87, and gives the breakdown of male-female employment in a number of categories. So from that, any changes can be extrapolated. Just for example - perhaps give the member a copy before I refer to it. In the managerial and adminis trative component, the percentage of women year over year increased by about 10 percent from 17 .6 percent to 27.8 percent. In some cases, there has been little or no change.

Overall, on the first page, the percentage of women emp loyees in the department in creased marginally from 74.6 percent to 75. 7 percent; in the legal classifications, a marginal in crease from 42 percent to 43.8 percent, but getting there; in the last catego ry, a change as noted from 65.7 percent to 75 percent. I think I've given the mem ber a copy. In fact, there is an additional copy for the Member for Brandon We st. I think that is most of the information that was request ed, and more will be forthcoming as we proceed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yesterda y, I had a question to be as noted that would fall into the Crown Prosecutors' area, I would think, or perhaps it could fall later on under Law Enforcement, but I wonder if I could just ask it now. It would be this, I wonder if the Attorney-General could advise us as to the status of the RCM P investigation into the MTS-MTX matter . HON. R. PENNER: I don't have any more information than that which I provided to the House a couple of 2243 - weeks ago, but I will try to get an update on that for tomor row.

As I recall, I was advised by the RCM P that they were waiting on External Affairs, which department with the Federal Government as a matter of protocol handles the basic protocols that are required to have the entry for investigation purposes of a foreign police force. I'll get the upda te on that, perhaps even later this after noon. MR. G. MERCIER: If there was some indi cation as to when the investigation would be completed as best as possible, that could be . . . HON. R. PENNER: I'll have that information for later this afternoon. MR. G. MERCIER: I believe we're now into 2.(c)(1)? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, 2.(c)(1).

MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Mi nister have the report? Is the report available? HON. R. PENNER: On the Fatality Inquiries, yes, we have some information. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I know I ind icated, the Attorne y-General asked me yesterday if I wanted Dr. Marke steyn here and I said no. So I appreciate the fact that he's not here. But what I would like to do is raise the matter, and the Attor ney-General can take it as notice and provide me with an answer as soon as he can.

A few weeks ago, a criminal prosecut ion was completed, and a female person was found guilty of not providing the necessities of life to an infant. I think it was the Abraham's case. HON. R. PENNER: The Abr aham's case, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: I'm advised that the natural father of that child who was killed late last week had an infant of his die. It may have involved sudden infant syndrome. I'm told that the Chie f Me di cal Examiner is investigating. He may have already investigated that case. I'd like to know the results of that, whether that child was in care, was known to be in a high-risk situation.

It may have been - and I'm just raising it for informational purpos es at this stage - that there was absolutely no fault of anyone, but I understand the Chief Medical Examiner was investigating that, and would ask the Attorn ey General if he could provide me with that report. HON. R. PENNER: If you could perhaps provide me in writing, before the end of the afternoon or in the next few minutes, the name of the father if it's di fferent than the name of the person who was found gui lty, and the name of the infant and the date of death. If he can't do it toda y, tomorr ow. MR. G.

MERCIER: I can't do that, but it's such a notorious situation, I think the Chief Medical Examiner will be well aware. HON. R. PENNER: All right. We'll certainly check it and, if we need more information, we'll get back to you.

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 MR. G. MERCIER: The other matter I would raise under this

section - and the Attorney-General may not have had sufficient opportunity to yet consider it, but in the Dr. Sigurdson-P rofessor Reid review of the child abuse system, they recommend that The Fatality Inquiries Act be amended so tnat, where there is a child in care and there is a death, there be an automatic inq uest and the Chief Medical Examiner make recommendations as to the involvement of any child care agency.

I've sugge sted that not be the only situation, that death cannot be the only situation but, where there is a child in care and there is significant mental or physical disabili ty incurred as a result of abuse while that child is in care, such an in dependen t investigation by someone like the Chief Medical Examiner be obtained - for Dr. Sigurdson or Professor Reid to point out that the Department of Community Services is ill-equipped to do a proper type of in vest igation in th ose circu mstances.

I would ask the Attorney-General if he's had an opportun ity to gi ve any consider ation to the amendments that were recommended in that report. HON. R. PENNER: First of all, I should tell the member that we're planning a complete revision of The Fatality Inqui ries Act for the next Session. We've had several consultations with Dr. Ma rkesteyn, and the process is now under way under the direction of our ADM, Justice Ron Perozzo, who is here.

But on the specific question, I did have a request from the Min ister of Community Services, received in fact, coincidentally enough the day before yesterd ay, asking me whet her, pending that full revision, it might not be possible to bring in an amendment to the existing act in this Session. I imme di ately referred that to the ADM Criminal Justice whose responsibility is that area, John Guy, and as soon as I can get an update to see whether it's something that can be done by a simple bill or even with consensus via statute law amendment.

If there's something we can do this year on that particular aspect, then we'd certainly be anxious to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon We st. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, on page 35, of the Supplementary Information . . HON. R. PENNER: Page 35? MR. J. McCRAE: 35. HON. R. PENNER: Yo u're way ahead of all of us. MR. J. McCRAE: Isn't that where we're supposed to be? MR. CHAIRMAN: Ye s, that's the place. HON. R. PENNER: Ther e we are. I was ju st complimenting you. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, under Objectives, there is the provision of grief counselling and supportive nursing care to the families of the - I take it, that's decedents. Then that is also listed under Activity Identification, providing counselling and nursing care. Could the Attorney-General tell us how many people would be inv olved in services of that kind? HON. R. PENNER: Yo u're referring particularly to the grief counselling and supportive nursing care to the families, the descendants?

There are two of the staff in the office of the Chief Medical Examiner who are primarily responsible, but they are more coordinators than actual line counsellors. They'll make sure, if they are unable to handle the problem themselves, that the appropriate agencies are brought into the situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1 )-pass; 2.(c)(2)-pa ss.

Section 2.(d)

(1) Board of Review - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: How many persons are being detained under the Criminal Code under this section? HON. R. PENNER: I'm going to give the member a breakdown. The total is 30, and the breakdown which he will receive ind icates where they are detained. Half of the 30 are detained in Selkirk, and the others in various other places. MR. G. MERCIER: The statistics that the Attorney General has given me ind icate that, other than mental health centres or correctional institutions, one is in the St.

Bon iface Hospital, six are in the commun ity, one in a group home, two in care homes. The fact that there are persons in the community in group homes and care homes, is that a recent change, that persons being detained are now placed in the community in group homes? HON. R. PENNER: No, that's always been part of the mandate of the Board of Review to, in appropriate cases, see if a progression can be made from an int ensive-care type unit, such as Selkirk or Brandon, through group or care homes and, in some instances, into the commu ni ty. Normally where a community release is ind icated - and it's almost never.

I can't recall an instance where there's been a direct transfer from the more intensive units into the commun ity, but where ultima tely there is a community release, it's usually accompanied by the equivalent of probation conditions and terms, for example, of regular attendances for medication or medication supervision, things of that kind. MR. G. MERCIER: Who sits on the Board of Review now? HON. R. PENNER: The Board of Review is headed by Caroline Cramer , as it has been for some years now. There are two psychiatrists, Prosen and Fred Shane, and two other members, Dr. Ma rilyn MacKay and Patricia Des jardins.

I should ind icate, just as a footnote to the response, that draft legislation has been circulated from about six months ago, perhaps a little longer , by the Minister of Justice. Fundame ntal changes are being proposed in the area. 2244

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 One of the changes will be that the Board of Review in fact will become, in a sense, the final arbiter. Normal ly, as the member will recall, the Board of Review makes a recommen dation, and then it comes up sort of as a Lieutenant-Governor Warrant to the Lieutenant Go vernor-i n-Counc il. It is very di fficult for the Lieutenant-Gov ernor-in-Council to do much with it. Fortun ately, the recommendations in my term of office - I think it was the same in the member's - have not met with any failures. But in order to . . MR. G. MERCIER: With del ays though. HON. R. PENNER: With delays.

The proposal would, as originally drafted, call for each provincial Board of Review to be headed by a judge of the Court of Que en's Bench. I think all of the Attorneys-General suggested that be broad enough to include the possibility for a provincial court judge heading the Board of Review. So if in fact they're to be the final arbiters of release mechanisms, there be someone with the authority of judicial office heading it up. We're supportive of that.

I'm advised that, at our forthcoming meeting of Attorneys-General, Min ister of Justice, next week, that issue is on the agenda and is now reasonably well advanced. MR. G. MERCIER: I would tend to be supportive of that type of change, if that's of any significance. But those are all the questions I have in this section. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1 )-pa ss; 2.(d)(2)- pass. Resolution No. 18 :

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,41 4,000 for Attorney-General, Criminal Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988- pass. MR. G. MERCIER: Are we at 3.(a)(1)? MR. CHAIRMAN: Ye s. MR. G. MERCIER: There's a reference here to special programs. I wonder if the Attorney-General could expand on that. HON. R. PENNER: The special program that is included in there is the grant to the anti-apartheid group. MR. G. MERCIER: Okay, that was the other area where I think the Attorney-General was going to bring some information . . . HON. R.

PENNER: Ye s, that's right and , in fact, I'll get it later this afternoon. MR. G. MERCIER: That grant, then, would account for virtually almost all of the inc rease in this particular area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass? MR. G. MERCIER: Sub ject to getting the information on the grants. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, that information will be available within half-an-ho ur. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1)- pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass. Civil Legal Services, 3.(b)(1). MR. G. MERCIER: On that one, Mr. Chairman, is there an addition in this particular area in view of the increase in Salaries? HON. R.

PENNER: There are no staff additions in this fiscal year. There was an addition in the last fiscal year related to the creation of the regulations unit, which we now have in place and to which I referred yesterda y. MR. G. MERCIER: Are there people hired on contract in this section? HON. R. PENNER: Not on contract. We have either SY's or term SY's. MR. G. MERCIER: Does this include the hiring of any outside counsel? HON. R. PENNER: Yo u're referring to 3.(b)? MR. G. MERCIER: 3.(b). HON. R. PENNER: I believe there's a small allowance of up to $5,000 for outside counsel. MR. G.

MERCIER: Were there any outside counsel hired last year? HON. R. PENNER: Outside counsel that would be hired, let's say for Energy and Mines - and I belie ve outside counsel were hir ed for Energy and Mines last year - would show up in that appropriation. Because it's a charge back, it doesn't show in our appropria tion. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the hiring of all outside counsel at least routed through the Attorney-General for approval? HON. R. PENNER : Ye s, the Gen eral Ma nual of Admin istration calls for the approval of the hiring of outside counsel by the Department of the Attor ney General. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Attorney-General provide us with a list of outside counsel who were hired during the last year and the amounts paid? HON. R. PENNER: Sure. Although it might appear in Public Accounts but, nevertheless, I think to simp lify the task of the member , we'll provide such information as we have. MR. G. MERCIER: When we get into Other Expen di tur es, ther e's a signif icant in crease in communication and supplies and service. HON. R. PENNER: What we really have here is an internal reallocation.

The actual amount, for example, that was spent through these various items in the last fiscal year was 132.5 and there was money of about the dif ference underspent, for example, in the office of Legislative Counsel. So for the presentation this year 2245

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 to be more realistic, we've transferred money from Legislative Counsel into this appropriation where we expect it to be spent. MR. G. MERCIER: How many people work in the Regulations Unit? HON. R. PENNER: Seven. That includes the four staff. MR. G. MERCIER: What exactly are they doing? Are they reviewi ng the regulations with a view to - certainly the translation that has to be done, which would be done not in this

section - or is it being done in this sec tion? HON. R. PENNER: We're just at the be ginning of the pr ocess. The Re gu lations Unit are proce eding department by department and reviewi ng all the existing regulations, weed ing out stuff that should have been weeded out long since, trying to elimi nate redundant or unne cessary matters. Then it goes to translation. When that process has been completed, then it comes up to Cabinet for reenactment in both languages.

We have begun with the Department of Labour and have now reenacted two fairly substantial - in fact, I'm advised that we've now, with the passage of a batch last Wed nesd ay, reenacted all of the regulations of the Department of Labour , and they are gaze tted . MR. G. MERCIER: How long is that expected to take? HON. R. PENNER: I think that will take well into '88, but will certainly be completed before the target date, which is December 31 , '88. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the plan for this unit? Ob viously , it certainly wouldn't be required in those num bers. HON. R.

PENNER: That's why some of the positions are term. We plan to keep a Regulations Unit, but it could be a relatively small one in place. Certainly it is proving itself to serve a very useful purpose in making sure our regulations are crisp and clean and current. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon We st. MR. J. McCRAE: Is it from this branch, Mr. Chairman, one of the lawyers from this branch who acts as board couns el for the Labour Board? HON. R. PENNER: From Legal Services, yes. MR. J. McCRAE: So the appropriation for that person's salary shows here and it wouldn't show under the Labour Estimates? HON. R.

PENNER: That's right. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1 )-pass - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster indi cated there was no incr ease in staff years, but I'm advised that Mr. Frost was transferred to Manitoba Hydro for a period of years. Can the Mi nister expand upon that? HON. R. PENNER: Ye s. Mr. Frost was transferred effec tive, I think, June 1-Ma y 1, and I believe it's for two or three years - for three years. The Hydro will pay us the value of his services so that he can be replaced for that period of time by term staff. MR. G.

MERCIER: Has he been replaced? HON. R. PENNER: I don't think he's been replaced yet. Excuse me for a moment. He will be replaced as of June 1. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b) (1 )-pass; 3.(b )(2)-pass. 3.(

c) Legislative Counsel, Salaries - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there any increase in staff here? Or has there been recently? HON. R. PENNER: There isn't year over year. I believe there was an in crease in staff between '85-86 and '86- 87. We'll check in a moment, but our recollection is that there was an in crease in'8 5-86, '86-87 of about six when we really began the in tensive work on translation of the Statutes. MR. G. MERCIER: Ye s, I have to raise a matter again that I think I raised a few years ago, Mr. Chairman, in my capacity as Opposition House Leader.

I had brought to my attention about a month ago a response from Legislative Counsel to someone who works for our caucus who was asked to deal with Legislative Counsel in developing a bill for preparation of a Private Member's bill for a mem ber, and the response - I did speak to the Government House Leader about it - essentially was, I don't have time to deal with your request because there's so much government legislation. Now, I think, to raise again the fact that the rules of the House provide that Legislative Counsel is Legislative Counsel for all mem bers of the House and there certainly is, to my knowledge.

The members of the Opposition have not requested very much at all in the way of Private Members' bills. I think there have been two on the Order Paper at this Session, and this was the only other request for preparation of a Private Member's bill and I think, in view of the rules and I think in view of the long-standing practice of the House, that someone in the Legislative Counsel 's office should be prepared to respond in a reasonable way. Nobody's asking for overnight production of a bill but to respond in a reasonable way to a request from a member of the Opposition for preparation of a Private Member's bill.

You simply can't do a Private Member's bill only after you're finished all the government legislation. HON. R. PENNER: First of all, I'm aware of the situation, and I want to assure the member that we're more than anxious to cooperate. It's not a question of sort of an in terpretation of the rules. I think that there ought to 2246

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 be the facility to provide that kind of service to all mem bers. It's certain ly, again, not a case of saying that it will not be done; it's a question of priorities. It's my hope that staff there will be able to get to that particular matter - I don't know what it is, of course - in enough time for the Opposition to consider the introduction of that matter , whatever it may be, in good time. We are cognizant of a difficulty that hasn't yet been overcome, name ly, that for a relatively few months of the 12, there's a great kind of press of work.

The net result is that a number of difficulties are created for both sides of the House, in fact, in the drafting of legislation when the House is in Session. We are trying to deal with that in two ways. One is to augment - the staff of the Legislative Counsel's office ind icated that Mr. Larson will be coming back and will be a member of the drafting staff in a matter of a couple of months.

The other thing that we're doing is that, internal ly, in the way in which we generate the legislative package for a Session, we've begun this year several months earlier than in previous years in order to see if we can get staff working on drafting in the fall, well before we're into a Session. MR. G. MERCIER: Having said that, I wouldn't want the record to show that I'm really being critical of the Chief Legislative Counsel. He's made presentations to us on Bill No. 4 and I think all members of the caucus are impr essed by his abilities. Mr.

Chairman, does this area, I ask the Min ister, contain the cost of the translations? HON. R. PENNER: The cost of legal translations, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: This is a change is it not? Yo u've been moving this back and forth between Cultural Affairs. HON. R. PENNER: We made the significant change two years ago, and I think that was appropriate to have the legal translation unit in the office of the Legislative Counse. It continues to be there, and it functions very well there. MR. G. MERCIER: What amount of money is being spent on translations in this year's budget? HON. R.

PENNER: In addition of course to the salaries of the staff, the in-house staff, then the amount of money that is being paid externally is found in the big numb er under Supplie s and Services. The majority of that $689,800 - I'l l try to get the exact number - but most of it is for legal translation by two or three firms located in the Ottawa Valley, Quebec City areas. Mo re particularly then, th e external cont racts presently in place are capped at $400,000.00. MR. G. MERCIER: Which outside firms did the outside work last year? HON. R. PENNER: We don't have a current contract.

We did have contracts with the University of Moncton. MR. G. MERCIER: Last year, there were two contracts with . . . Mulcare? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mulcare in Montreal. Traduction Un iverselles - they're primarily doing the regulations. MR. G. MERCIER: What amount was paid to each of those firms last year? HON. R. PENNER: We'll provide that either later this afternoon or tomor row. MR. G. MERCIER: In those cont racts, is money paid per word to each of the firms? Is that the basis of payment? HON. R. PENNER: With Traduction Universelles, it's per word. With Mulcare, he actually acts as a reviser.

As the memb er may kno w, when you ha ve the translation done, then it goes to a more experienced person who does very careful analytical editing and also does concordance, which is more di fficult. MR. G. MERCIER: They're doing di fferent types of work, then. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Was the contract to the Traduction Univ erselles tendered? HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: They were the lowest tenderer? HON. R. PENNER: -(Interjection)- I'd put that on the record in exactly the same terms.

I'm advised they weren 't the lowest, but they were considered to be the best in terms of the quality of work which we've seen. We've had work from several firms - not several, that would be exaggera ting; about three or four firms - including the Un iversity of Moncton, and this is not to disparage any particular firm but we are insisting on quality work. Fortunately , because we now have our own in-h ouse staff, headed by a very, very good legal translator, Michel Nantel, we are able to check the quality of work. Because, under our law, both texts are official, we want to make sure that there is no disp arity.

MR. G. MERCIER: What was the dif ference in the tenders? HON. R. PENNER: That information will be suppli ed later this afternoon. MR. G. MERCIER: Who is doing what work? Are those contracts allocated for this year? We were speaking about last fiscal year, now we're speaking about this fiscal year. HON. R. PENNER: Ye s, the question as I understand it is: Have these contracts been tendered anew for this fiscal year? Not to this date. The cont ract with Traduction Univ erselles was, as I understand it, a contract for doing the regulations, and so that cont ract will run for another year and a bit.

The contract with Mulcare will probably come to an end in September this year because of the fact that we only have about another 37 of the CCSM to do. 2247

Thursday, 21 May , 1987 MR. G. MERCIER: In th e Estimat es, it shows Recov erable from Canada, $300,000, but I think the Attorney-General indic ated that it may in fact be $400,000 or $500,000.00? HON. R. PENNER: $500,000 - yes. MR. G. MERCIER: I have no further questions on this section. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(cX1 )-pass; 3.(cX2 )-pass. 3.(

d) Manitoba Law Reform Commission: Salaries - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: There's a note in the Suppl ementary Information that the first in crease of total salaries is due to funds added back to salaries budget after they had been ded ucted in error in' 85-86. What was the actual amount they got last year from the government? HON. R. PENNER: In the last fiscal year, the amount that was received from Consolida ted from the government directly - The Law Reform Commission actually received the amount shown in the adjusted vote, but we received back from the Law Foundation $100,000.00.

The Law Reform Commission received a total of 336.5 and we, in turn - the Paymaster - received $10 0,000 from the Law Foundation. MR. G. MERCIER: I don't know if you'll have this information, but what had they got in the previous year? HON. R. PENNER: Actual, 329.5. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm looking at the Annual Report of the Law Reform Commission in which they talk about their budget and the fact that the agreement between the government and Law Society provided that they were to receive 1 00,000 per annum for three years, commencing with the '86-87 fiscal year.

They say the Commission was given to understand that the amount of funding received from the government would only be partially reduced and that, in effect, the budget of the Commission would increase through the provision of additional funds for outside consultants. Unf ortun ately, no additional funds were received for the '86-87 fiscal year. However, we have been assured that this matter will be corrected and th at the commission will indeed receive additional funds during the 1987-88 fiscal year. Are they receiving additional funds? HON. R. PENNER: I'm sor ry, would you just give me the last part of that? MR.

G. MERCIER: Are they receiving additional funds or is this in crease simply going to, I guess normal incr eases in salary . . . HON. R. PENNER: No, there will be, I'm advised, in addition to what is shown here in print, an additional 40,000 in salary dollars that will be transferred internally to make up what the budget should be. MR. G. MERCIER: Where will that come from? HON. ·R. PEN NER: It will come from within the department. In fact, the transfer of the staff year and the salary dollars will go with it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I've discussed with the Attorney-General previously that Dean Edwards resigned as chairman, effective December 31 . I note that the new chairman has not been appointed. I would like to remind him of a situation that occurred in 1977 when we formed the government and this position was vacant. The former chairman at that time, Mr.

Gibson, within a few weeks, I think, of taking office was requesting me to fill this position immed iate ly, and taking some time to search for a capable replacement, I think it was a matter of a few more months before eventually we were successful in finding and obtaining the services of Dean Edwards. I recall the ferocity with which Mr. Gibson and of course Mr. Cherniack, who was in the Opposition, criti cized me for not filling this impo rtant position, and it is an imp ortant position. But in view of the fact - and I won't use that as a precedent for criticizing this Attorney-General.

But I would ask if there is a search on to fill the position of chairman or chairperson of the Law Reform Commission, and whether it's anticipa ted that the new chairman will be a full-time chairman. Perhaps the Attorney-General will simply give us an upda te as to that matter. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, in fact, I have been making some soundings with respect to a replacement for Dean Edwards, but haven't advanced on it very rapidly . Just a footnote here, I'm glad that ferocity is not an attribute of either the Member for St. Norbert or myself.

Serious ly, I've arranged for a meeting with the full commission for June 12, I think - June 8 - to discuss with the commis sion its mandate for the next year or two and, in that context, to discuss the question with the commis sion of full-ti me/part-time and to see, as well, whether or not there's any potential inte rest on the part of current members of the commission in the position of chair. So I'm making a fairly signif icant move along the di rection of resolving the question.

I should point out there is I think, if memory serves, a fairly substantial dif ference between the existing situation and the situation a few years ago - I can't relate that back to the time when the member was Attorney-General - and that is that we have a person who is, in effect, the executive di rector of th e commission, Jeff Schnoor . Fortun ately, the fact that we haven't had a chairperson has not crippled the work of the commission carrying on and completing some current assignments, and we want to look at some of their new assignments. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, when one looks at the Appendix 8 of the report, dealing with the reports of the Man itoba Law Reform Commission and ind icating when the reports were submi tted and when there has been legislation implementing and dealing with the commission's recommendations, one notes that up until about 1983, about April, early spring of 19 83, most of the - in fact, the vast majority of the reports of the Law Reform Commission have been implemented. But when one looks at page 21, dealing with reports made 2248

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 from the middle of 19 83 on, we see very little - in fact, we see no impl ementation of the recommendations. I appreciate that the Law Reform Commission reports are not infallible and they are never going to be accepted holus-bolus by any government, but I wonder how the Attorney-General accounts for the lack of im plementation of any of the reports since about the middle of 1983. HON. R. PENNER: Actually , there is more there than meets the eye. No. 59, breach of promise to marr y, No. 14 (

a) jactitation of marriage, are in fact, contained in a bill that is already before the House - the ammendments to The Quality of Status Act. So those are, in fact, in this Session. The Human Tissue Act, as the Min ister of Health mentioned in his min isterial statement to the House, I expect to get first reading to a signi ficant amending bill to The Human Tissue Act which will build on some of the recommendations of the Law Reform Comm ission in Report No. 66. I believe, subject to my checking back, that

section 300 of The Liquor Control Act is being dealt with or has been dealt with. I'm not sure what

section 83 of The Queen's Bench Act is, but that may also have been dealt with. The major family legislation, examination of The Dower Act - the Intestate Succession, Te stated Family Maintenance, Married Women 's Property - all of those are reflected in the discussion paper that's out and will be reflected in the White Paper to come, with the intention of introducing major family legislation in the next Session of the Legislature. I should say that I've just received in the last few days, 68, Periodic Payment of Damages. Perhaps it's a couple of weeks.

That is certainly something that I will be reviewing very closely with a view to whether or not it can be dealt with in the next Session of the Legislature. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Attorney-General referred to a di scussion paper relating to Family Law, family property and, I take it, all aspects of it. I've been receivi ng, in the last little while, copies of responses to that discussion paper but ha ve never received a copy of the di scussion paper . I wonder if the Attorney-General 's Office could provide me with a copy of that. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. In fact, it will be up in a few moments. MR. G.

MERCIER: I have no further questions on this sect ion. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (d)(1 )-pass; 3.(d) (2)-pass. 3.(e)( 1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: The Supp lementary Information indi cates a transfer of sub-appropriation 3.(c), more adequately reflect expenditures in Family Law. I wonder if the Attorney-General could just explain what is happening there. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. Again, that's an internal transfer from the appropriation of Leg. Counsel to this unit to more realistically reflect its actual needs. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I have no further questions other than to say - that would be on the Ma intenance question. I note in the Su pplementary Information reference to im plementation of a federal provincial report dealing with parental child abduction. Again, this is an old problem. Have any other provinces yet adopted the practice that we have in Manitoba of supplying Crown attorneys to deal with the cases where the child is abduc ted into the Province of Manitoba? Do any other provinces yet provide that same service? HON. R. PENNER: We believe that Alberta does, but we'll check that. MR. G.

MERCIER: I take it this report - is the report going to federal-provincial meeting dealing with that question? HON. R. PENNER: Next week, in fact. I should point out that our Director of the Family Law Department, Robin Diamond, was in fact nationally the coordinator of the project. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)( 1 )-pass; 3.(e )(2)-pass. 3.(f)( 1) - Member from Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, one of the objectives of the Constitutional Law Branch is to ensure compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freed oms in existing statutes in Manitoba. The Min ister has told me, when I referred him to

section 6(2) of The Manitoba Labour Relations Act which deprives Manitobans of the right to speak their mind or express themselves, the Mini ster reminded me that another

section of that act gua rantees. So it strikes me as strange that in one act you can have a

section that depriv es your right to express yourself and another sect ion that gu arantees it. Not being a drafter of legislation and not being a lawyer, I'm confused by that answer the Mini ster gave us. I'm asking the Mini ster if he has asked this branch of his department to give him an opinion on that very specific quest ion. If not, will he do that and let us in the Legislature have the benefit of that advice? HON. R. PENNER: No, I haven't in fact made a specific reference to the Constitutional Law Branch or to counsel, which generally works on issues of Charter compliance to look at that specific section.

I did outline in the House a process or review which we have and which has resulted in the introduction of compliance bills in the House for the last two or three years, and again that will be the case in this year. That's one way in which we deal with the question of possible conflicts with the Constitution or, in particular , the Charter of Rights and Freed oms, and that's the pro-active way. The other way is reactively . If in fact in the course of a given case our legislation is challenged and then it would be part of the duty of the Constitutional Law Branch to do the appropriate research.

The member may recall another part of my answer - I think we've dealt with this in the House on a couple of occasions - and that is because in fact there was a particular case. We should perhaps mor e accurately say that there is a particular case involving, among other plaintiffs, 2249 -

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 the Metropolitan Stores, that in fact the Constitutional Law Branch - and I'm not sure if others from other parts - Legal Services, I think so. Two or three of our staff lawyers have been very, very heavily engaged over quite a period of time in very fundamental research on the whole area of labour law and potential constitutional problems that may arise because of the litigation that in fact is already going through the courts in other parts of Canada, litigation that has gone through the courts in a somewha t similiar constitutional context in the United States.

So we have a very, very extensive legal brief that di scusses, for example, the relationship between what might loosely be described as trade union rights and questions of freedom of expression as dealt with by

section 2 of the Cha rter. The member may recall or may know, because of his particular inter est in labour legislation and labour law, that case was about to be argued in full, our brief having been prepared and filed with the court at the begi nning of April when the Supreme Court, in a case arising from another jurisdiction, made a decision which in effect said that trade union rights, such as the right to strike, were not protected by the Charter .

The Charter is generally held, as far as litigation and jurisprudence has now developed, is primarily aimed at the protection of individual rights and not primarily aimed at the protection of collective rights There has been some concerned expressed by various commentators about that decision, but there it is, and that gives us some parameters within which to ana lyze the operative effect of our own labour legislation and whether or not it's in conflict.

I should perhaps just make one other general remark, and that is that, of course, no rights are absolute, whether they're colle ctive rights or individual rights. The right that is stipu lated in The Labour Relations Act with respect to freedom of expression has to be read in the context of other rights. Yo u have those individual rights that have to be weighed, and appropriately by the judici ary, I would think, in any given case, against the rights that are given - the collective rights - with respect to matters such as unla wful interference with organizing and unfair labour practices.

One final footnote, not meaning to personalize, but I was counsel in a fairly significant case in that precise area not that many years ago, involving the Free Press and one of the printing unions, which is no longer the bargaining agent - this was the editorial staff, really, not the typographers and so on - in which the allegation was made on the part of those, or their predecessors who sit in the Legislative Galler y, and others on that side of the production of the paper that their attempt to unioni ze and to negotiate had been unla wfully in terfered with by the management of the Free Press.

The defence advanced, in fact, by the Free Press was that exact

section of The Labour Relations Act, that had a dif ferent number at the time, and they succeeded. I don't normally confess that I lose cases, but in deed I did lose that case because of that provision of The Labour Relations Act. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I don't think I detected that the Min ister is willing to refer that complaint that I have· about The Labour Act to this constitutional division for special consideration.

Cir cumstances arise, and I realize the branch is doing a review or is monitoring cases, but every once in awhile in the course of events, certain things transpire which, to my way of thinking , should cause a repriorization of what the department is doing.

Certain ly, in the case of Jenn ifer Campbell, J know I h ave a daughter who is 17 years old, and if a year from now when she was 18, she was faced with the problem that Jenn ifer Campbell is faced with, I think we all tend to forget that these people are put to a lot of legal cost if they're going to defend the mselves against the type of things Jenn ifer Campbell is faci ng. It seems to me that a government with any sense of humanity or kind ness would turn its attention to this kind of legislation which puts people like Jennifer Campbell in the position that they're in. When we look at

section 22(4) of The Labour Act, we find the various penalties that are available to the Labour Board and some of them, if carried to the maximum, would be - well, in the case of people like Jenni fer Campbell, would destroy her life if the board were to impose a penalty of the lik es that it could. On the face of it, and not knowing Jenn ifer Campbell personally , but on the face of it, it strikes me that she's put into a very , very uncomfortable position which is not right for a young person probably in one of her first jobs, who expresses herself and finds herself slapped with this kind of thing.

The Premier of the provinc e and the Mi nister of Labour , and I believe this Minister as well, have gone to the trouble to point out that they don't think Jennifer Campbell is going to have to face the kind of penalties that are envisioned in the act because of some comment made by a union leader. The fact is the complaint is still there before the Labour Board and it will be up to the Labour Board to decide.

If the Labour Board decides, by virtue of the laws that we have in this province, that Jennifer Campbell has somehow done something wrong, then it is in the hands of the Labour Board to punish her rather severely. After that, it's up to Jenn ifer Campbell to appeal to a higher level and this all, of course, brings about great expense for her. In this case, I'm appealing to this Mini ster to ask the Constitutional Law Division to review those sections of The Labour Act that we've been ref erring to.

I refer, also, to some of the sections dealing with automatic certification and sec tions which don't necessarily call for a vote in the workplace. I refer, of course, to the Springhill Farms pork processing plant situation and the problems the majority of the workers there face. The workers at the Sooter Photo plant in Winnipeg have not been listened to by the Labour Board. We 're dealing with ordina ry Ma ni toba ns, Mr. Chairman; we're not dealing with rich and powerful emp loyers and rich and powerful union leaders.

We 're dealing with average, ordinary Manitobans who don't have the resources to take these things to the highest court in the land. On their behalf, I implore and plead with this Minis ter to bring The Manitoba Labour Relations Act under very close scrutiny by his department so that the average Manitoba working man and woman can be protected from the kind of thing Jennifer Campbell is now facing. 2250

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 HON. R. PENNER: First of all, I think it would be a serious error in judgment to discuss the law, whether it's the criminal law or a provincial regulatory statute by reference to a case which is still before either a judicial or a quasi-judicial terminal. That is a serious error in judgment, and I reject it out of hand. I think the member is doing a disservice to Jennifer Campbell and to the union and to the cause of industrial peace by doing that.

If he wants to raise the general issue, fine, and I'm prepared to discuss it even though I'm not the Mi nister of Labour; but since the question has been put, I won't evade it. Secondly , it should not come as a surprise to the member , but apparently it does, that there are some emp loyers in the province - thank God, I think, far from being the majority - who are not above trying to break a union, or to weaken its position on the threshold of bargaining for a new agreement, or for amendments to agreement. If it comes as a surprise to the Member for Brandon West, then he's more naive than I think he is, No. 1.

Number two, it should not come as a surprise to the Member for Brandon West - it certainly doesn't come as a surprise to me because I've been inv olved in trade union activities for something like 57 years - not quite 57 - 52 - since I was a kid - that unscrupulous emplo yers may use some of their emp loyees to front for them in carrying out . . . A MEMBER: May. HON. R. PENNER: May, of course. Somebody else has to judge it, not us in this committee. That's what we have a Labour Board for and that's what we have the courts for. A MEMBER: It sounds like you're pre judging. HON. R. PENNER: Let me finish my answer.

In fact, it may be the case - it may be the case - and that's all I'm saying - in some instances that an apparently in nocent emp loyee, perhaps young, may be used in some instances by an emp loyer. I've known of lots of instances. I make no comment in this case because I know nothing of the facts of this case, don't want to know anything about the facts of this case. It would impair my position as an Attorney-General to know and be concerned about the facts of a case that is before a properly constituted tribunal. Yo u know, we have constant reference to an 18 year old.

Damn it all, we have 16 year olds and 17 year aids committing murder in this province, so the question of age is irrelevant. It may be in a particular case - and I don't refer to this case at all - that if a young person is used, as is sometimes in a criminal context is used to break into a place or used by an emplo yer to carry out something that the emplo yer hasn't got the guts to do himself or herself or itself - and again I stress, I'm not refer ring to this case - that can happen. But who's to judge? Not the Legislature, not a committee of the Legislature, not a Min ister of the Crown.

Who's to judge is the properly constituted, legally and constitutionally valid tribunal constituted by the people of Mani toba thr ough their elected representatives to make such decisions. And that' s where the matter should rest. Final ly, references made in this sear chin g for hyperbole, searching for exaggeration, searching for frightening tactics to the maxi mum penalties, the maximum penalty for break and enter a house is life imprisonment. It's never suggested by the Crown that, because that maximum is there, inde ed that is what in fact should be inflicted in a given case.

Simi larly, there's no way if you have a penalty that's basically designed as a $2,0 00 maximum penalty and somebody wants to test the law, if that's indeed what they want to do, by putting in a claim and say well that really means $2,000 per emplo yee and, if you take the number of emplo yees and you multiply by 2,000, you come up to $3.5 million, whatever it might be. You know, I once used to use as an example the fact that there is really nothing to stop somebody filing a statement of claim in the Court of Queen's Bench accusing the Queen of England of breach of promise of marriage.

Yo u kno w, in the fullness of time, something as frivolous and as vexatious as that will be dealt with by those who are charged with the respo nsibil ity for dealing with it. It is not the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba, and it is not individual legislators in the Province of Manitoba. That's not what we're elected to do, to interfere with the court process. If you don't like the court process or the particular process, get yourself elected as the Government of Manitoba and pass all the anti-union laws that you want. But remember this, there was a pact made in this country in 1944.

We learned something from the Wagoner Act (phonetic) passed in the United States in 1935, and that is that indus trial peace benefits all of society. That pact was that trade unions gave up the right to strike during the li fetime of a colle ctive agreement in order to have bargaining rights as a sole bargaining agent if they fol lowed a whole num ber of steps to get to that place. It's because of that pact which was made in the exigencies of war, to make sure that war production wasn't interf ered with, that in fact Canada has an enviable record of in du strial peace.

Our Labour Relations Act, which is far from being the most stringent in the count ry, is based on that historic pact. Any attempt to disrupt it by using one's position as a legislator to interfere in union activities that are taking place, to put pressure on a quasi-judicial tribunal is, in my view, entirely wrong. I think, with respect, the Member for Brandon West is making a serious error in judgement, and I don't intend to respond to it any further . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Attorney-General is not dealing fairly with my question.

He suggests that I'm discussing the merits of a particular case, which I did not do, but then went on to discuss the merits of that very case himself by making the suggestion that the likes of Jenn ifer Campb ell are being manipu lated and domin ated by the emp loyer, which is something that the Labour Board is supposed to decide and not this Min ister. So, to say that I am fighting these battles . HON. R. PENNER: Yo u're finally learning. 2251

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 MR. J. McCRAE: . .. in public is quite unfair , because th is Minister and his colleagues are doing exactly the thing they' re accusing me of. Mr. Chairman, the Minister wonders why we raise these things. We're trying to give a focus to a labou r act that is bad, that has been the focus of the - if we had no particul ar problems to bring to the attention of the government, they would say, well there's no problem, so why are you bothering us about this Labou r Act.

What we're doing is we're bringing specific exa mpl es of problems to the attention of the government in an effor t to try to persuade them to look more closely at the nature of The Labour Act, which has been described by those who know a lot more about it tha n I do and a lot more than this Attorney-Gene ral knows about The Labou r Act. It's been described as a laboratory here in Manitoba so that all other juri sdictions can look at Manitoba to see how the provisio ns brought in by this government are working.

Those who know more about the labour law than I do and more th an the Attorney General knows have also said that they have taken the worst portions of labour legislation from the various jurisdictions in this Canada and lumped them all together in the Manitoba Labour Relations Act, and the Minister has the gall to suggest that I shouldn't be criticizing The Labour Act. I should stay out of any discussion about labour matters in this province . The fact is that ordinary Manitoba working men and women are affected rather significantly by The Labour Act in this pro vince.

This Min ister knows it and refuses to act, and that bothers me as an elected representative of the people here. There's one othe r matter before I stop , Mr. Chairman , and that is the other day, when the Minister in the House suggested that I carried a brief for the Chamber of Commerce and for union -busting employers in this pro vince, I really take offence at that, Mr. Chairman. As a n ine-y ear member of a union working for this Minister 's department, I take offence to that . I've never been a mem ber of any Chamber of Commerce .

On the other hand, I have been a member of a union, and I agree with the Minister that most employers in this province are good employers, and I agree with the Minister tha t most unions in this province are good unions. For the M inister to suggest that what we would do would be to change The Labour Act to create labour disharmony and destroy unions, I suggest is foolishness and sop histry on the part of the Minister. He should know better, if he knows me at all by now.

To make comments like that does a disservice to anyone who wants to speak for men and women who are working in this province, and I take offence at the Minister 's comments in that respect. HON. R. PENNER : I avoid, but with difficulty , the temptation to reply to the suggestion that I know the Member for Brandon West . Indeed , I suppose , in a number of ways I do. I was not the one, incidentally, who brought the whole issue forward or ment ion ed in these proceedings a particular case and a

part icular complainant. I wasn 't the one who did it, and I took great pains in replying to say that I would not discuss that case. I talked about general principles. I'm conten t to leave it at that. MR. CHAIR MAN : 3.(fX1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Cha irman , could the Minister advise as to the status of the case involving the prisoners at Stony Mountain Penitentiary , which I believe is being looked after by his dep art ment ? That is going to the Court of Appeal? Can he ind icate if there is a date set? HON. R.

PENNER: It is technically before the Court of Appeal , but we haven't proceeded with it. It can be proceeded with on our initiative . What we're trying to do is an examination of The Election Act as a whol e to see whether or not any part of

section 31 may be in conflict with the Charter, as suggested. You will reca ll that , in the Badger case , it was the judgment of Judge Scollin that

section 31 painted with too broad a brush in lumping togethe r as persons not entitled to vote somebody who might be in jail for non-p ayment of a traffic fine , and somebody who might in a penitentiary for sexual assault or murder . We're examining that. That's one of the issues that I've asked our Constitutional Law Branch to look at. I've had put before me some time several months prior to the last election a claim by a prov incial court judge , who I shall not name, who felt that this judge's rights were violated by one of the other sections of

section 31, which said that judges can' t vote , and indeed was prepared to take the matter to court. Following the receipt of a number of recommendations dealing with The Elections Act by the Chief Electoral Officer , I'm trying to find time to do a complete analysis of the bill. There will not be any legislation brought forward in this Session, but I prefer to look at those issues before deciding whether or not to go ahead with the appeal. I say that because it may be that the very broad sweep of

section 31(

a) is questionable , and maybe a less stringent exclusion can be developed . MR. G. MERCIER: I would just make one comment, Mr. Chairman . I think it would be unwise to anticipate in a lot of these situations and cases that the courts will find against the existing legislation . We shouldn't anticipate too much in the way of sort of negative comment from the court system. I think they may have more common sense than we wish to give them credit for. In a case like this, I would fra nkly prefer to see it go to the Court of Appeal, and let them make a judgment on it. HON. R.

PENNER: That's certainly an option that is being considered. In the particular instance, let's recall that in fact a very exper ienced judge of the Court of Queen's Bench has already ruled. So we're not dealing with the matter in a judicial vacuum . MR. G. MERCIER: He has a view of the Charter of Rights tha t many concur with . HON. R. PENNER: Which indicat es that it's not a giveaway judgment. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(fX1)-pass; 3.(fX2)-pass. Resol ution No. 19:

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $5,131,100 2252

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 for Attorney-General , Legal Services , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988-pass. A MEMBER: What was that? On the whole . MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, all of

section 3. Now, we're on

section 4., Law Enforcement - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairm an, I think firstly we have to deal with what occurred during the Estimates last year in this particular

section . I had asked a question of the Attorney-General as to which detachments are being looked at in a preliminary way for closure. He did make a reference that the area of the Winnipeg Beach detachment was being looked at. Then I asked him : " . . . but is the Attorney -General saying he will consult with the communities affec ted, the municipalities and the local organizations well in advance of making a decision, before a dec ision is made?

Or is he suggesting to simply notify them in advance that the dec ision is made, period, and that's it, because these things mean a lot to these individual communities?" (Mr. Deputy Chairman , M. Dolin, in the Chair.) The Attorney-General responded by saying : " I agree. I can say categorically that before any final decision is made in this area, or any other analagous kind of area, there will be consultation with the communities involved." Then we all recall, Mr. Chairman , what happened after that when there was a decision made to close the detachments in Winnipeg Beach, in Deloraine and in Reston .

There certainly had been no consultation at all with the communities affected . Of course, each and every one of those communities has very much objected to the decision that has been made . I would ask him now, what is the status of these matters now in these communities. I think I'm aware, in Winnipeg Beach as I understand it, the detachment is to close its office some time in September.

In that regard, I had occasion to be out there earl ier Monday, and was told by the operator of a commercial residence that , for example , in the past month there have been over - I believe the figure is accurate, and I ask the Attorney-General to perhaps confirm it. In the past month, there have been over 100 break-ins in that community . That's with the RCMP detachment there at this time. Next year, they won't be there at this time. I would ask the Attorney-General to indicate to the committee what is the status of the closing of each of these detachments. HON. R.

PENNER: The effective dates of the alterations - in a sense, I prefer to use that word rather than " closures ," because the only sort of outright closure , if you will, is Winnipeg Beach

whereas , with Deloraine and Reston, some adjustments have been made as part of the consultative process , which I would be the first to admit came much later than it should have, but nevertheless did take place and was productive . But the effective dates for the transfer of responsibilities: in Deloraine, June 1, '87; Reston , September 1, '87; Winnipeg Beach, September 10, '87. Just one other comment, the Member for St. Norbert says that next year, if we have these increasing break- ins , the RCMP won 't be there. That, with respect , is not an accurate statement of the situation.

The RCMP will certainly be there, and be there just as effectively - and, in fact, I am advised , on weekends , probably more effectively, working out of a larger detachm ent than is presently the case. You must remember , with Winnipeg Beach, that the detachment office - and that's what is being moved - will be in Gimli , a few kilometres north of Winnip eg Beach, well well within acceptable response time , and patrolling will continue unquestionably. In fact, the Gimli detachment has been upgraded to a subdivision status and is now the Gimli subdivision and , as such, has additional personnel.

I think we're going to have a very efficient policing unit in that subdivision for Winnipeg Beach. I don't think there 'll be - in fact, I'm assured that there won 't be less policing, there'll be more policing. MR. G. MERCIER: What will exist in Winnipeg Beach in terms of manpower, as comp ared to what is there now? HON. R. PENNER: The actual location in terms of the office out of which they work will be in Gimli , but some of those who will be members of the Gimli detachment and working out of Gimli will continue , I believe, to actually live in Winnipeg Beach.

There are one or two of the RCMP, who actually will be working out of Gimli , will still continue to be living in Winnipeg Beach, but their operations will be directed out of the detachm ent office. MR. G. MERCIER: Will there be the same numbers of people? HON. R. PENNER: Living in Winnipeg Beach? No. MR. G. MERCIER: No, working in the area. HON. R. PENNER: What will happen is that the Winnipeg Beach detachment office will close . The Gimli Division detachment - and that will involve, I think , in the closure of five people, and three will go to Gimli. Five positions gone in the closure; three added to Gimli. MR.

G. MERCIER: So the total numbers are down . HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Is that the saving? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, that's the saving, plus there's a civilian saving and some operational cost saving - accommodation saving . MR. G. MERCIER: What is the total saving? HON. R. PENNER: The net annual saving in the Winnipeg Beach detachment area, based of course on this year's cost sharing and this year's salaries, will be $72 ,530 .00. MR. G. MERCIER: Are there larger premises being acquired in Gimli? 2253

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 HON. R. PENNER: Not required. MR. G. MERCIER: Are the RCMP in Winnipeg Beach presently renting that facility or do they own that facility? HON. R. PENNER: It belongs to the town. MR. G. MERCIER: That figure of $72,000 contemplates some saving in rent? HON. R. PENNER: Ye s. Operations and maintenance costs included in that saving are $1 1,131. 00. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Attorney-General assuring the people presently served by the Winnipeg Beach detachment that there will be no lessen ing of the presence of the RCMP in terms of their visibility in the community and the num ber of checks done, etc., the number of patrols? There will be the same number of patrols and the same de gr ee of visibili ty in the communi ty after the closing of the office as exists now. HON. R.

PENNER: The assurances I have is that the level of policing - I can't break it down in quite the way the question is phrased, but the level of policing will be during the course of the week at least the same, with the likelihood of the level of policing being even better on weekends. You see, when you 're working out of a la rger detachment, you have more flexibility in the allocation of members over the 24 hours in which policing must be done.

If you're down to a very small detachment - a two-person detachment, I guess, as being the smal lest that we've had since I've been A-G, and there are not many of them left. I think there are perhaps two two person detachments left. But when you're down to a two-person, you really have got a lot of blanks in which you're not policing. Somebody has to sleep at some time and you can't ask people to do efficient policing on a 12 -hour basis.

So there are di fficulties of that kind, particularly if one of the two is out on call and the particular call is being, heaven forbid, a catastrophy on the hig hway and they have to wait for the highw ay unit to get down from wher ever they're going to get down, then policing just isn't been done. If you build larger units, then you do ha ve sufficient flexibility to in fact in many instances im prove policing. MR. G.

MERCIER: What did the Attorney-General mean when he said during Estimates last year: "And I say categorically that, before any final decision is made in this area or any other analogous kind of area, there will be consultation with the communities involv ed"? Has this decision with respect to the closing of Winnipeg Beach changed in any way as a result of any discussions he's had with the mayor, the town council or any other citizen or representative of the area? HON. R. PENNER: I suppose that the word, "categoric," is a word that ought to be avoided by most people in life and especially politicians.

But certainly in any event, when I said, categorically there will be consultations, that's exactly wha t I said and I can reply now, categorical ly, there were consultations. I never said that it will Inevitably be the result that, as a result of the consultations, we'll do something dif ferent than we're proposing to do.

As it happened we were able, because of I think a very good kind of attempt by the Mun icipality of Brenda and the To wn of Deloraine to look at creative ways of dealing with the policing situation in the town and the municipalit y, to work out something that, if not completely satisfactory , I think essent ially is satisfactory to the town and the municipa lity. With respect to Winni peg Beach, there was no sensible alternative.

I'm not saying that there was no alterna tive sugges ted by Ma yor Sabeski but the alternat ives which he proposed seemed to us to have, to result in a more expensive, more inefficient kind of policing. And so, although there were a lot of meetings, a good deal of correspondence and a certain amount of heat generated over the course of some months, there was no basic alteration in the closure plan ther e as there was with respect to the Deloraine detachment, for example. MR. G. MERCIER: The question though, Mr.

Chairman, was: Was there any change made in the original decision with respect to the closing of the Winnipeg Beach detachment? Was that modified in any way as a result of the discussions that were held? HON. R. PENNER: No. MR. G. MERCIER: Was any consideration given to occupying or working out of the existing office in Winn ipe g Beach during, particula rly, the Ma y to September season in order to allow for a greater presence in Winnip eg Beach at that time? At that particular time of the year, as the Attorney-General well knows, it is a very highly populated area. HON. R.

PENNER: Ye s, consideration was given but finally that was not accepted as being a reasonable proposal when the basic notion of having one command station was being proceeded with. Winnipeg Beach is not a tiny commu nit y in th e summer; it's a very substantial commu nity. I think the population swells to 12, 000 or 14 ,000, something of that kind. I'm sure the member has been to Winnipeg Beach.

I hadn't for a ton of years but I've been there fairly recently, last year and the year before, and you can have a cruiser car at one end of Winn ip eg Beach and all kinds of shenanigans going on on the beach or somewhere else and the fact that there's a police cruiser somewhere in the general area doesn't necessar ily mean that you've got hot-shot policing taking place. If you have a command unit responding to calls and needs in addition to regular patrolling, which will take place, you'v e got efficient policing. MR. G.

MERCIER: Has the Attorney-General been in vited to a public meeting on Saturda y, July 4 in Winnipeg Beach to defend this position? HON. R. PENNER: Apparently I have. I don't know - did the member write this letter? MR. G. MERCIER: No. HON. R. PENNER: It's with great regret, I would have to decline the very kind invitation due to the fact that 2254

Thursday, 21 May, 1987 it's American Independence Day and I will be celebrating it.- (Interjection)- July 4? I mean, I wouldn't want to work on July 4. What kind of flagrant insult to our American cousins is this? Yes, I've just received the letter and certainly I'l l have to check my diary and consider whether I am able to respond on that particular day. Just think, we may need a considerable break at that time. Ma ybe I'll counterpropo se a meeting for August 4. We' ll work something out. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, would the Min ister be prepared to review this decision, say, after the first year's operation and have an opportunity to look at any change there may be in crime statistics? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, of course. A MEMBER: Categorically . HON. R. PENNER: I don't know if "of course" is the same as "categorically." In fact, I receive probably two or three proposals from the RCM P every year for changes, and I can't think of any occasion in which I've said no.

The proposal that came in the fall of 1983, I guess, that resulted finally in these closures, I didn't act on immed iately because of the conseq uences of closing detachments. I really did want to consider every possible alternative before moving along those lines. But, for example, I had during the course of 1986, a proposal that several members be taken, one from here and one from there - and these were detachments that had five or six or seven or eight people so that it would not result in the closure - but the needs were no longer there. Needs had arisen elsewhere.

The RCM P is a very efficient police force, very well organi zed and they have a computer-based method of analyzing personnel needs in any particular area at any particular time, or they may - they're very in novative - decide that they need a central auto theft unit and have to pull the people from somewhere. So those things are under review. We 've had situations where - just to be more specific - I think it was with respect to Gillam.

It might have been Grand Rapids, in one year, in 1985, the size of the detachment was reduced but, because there was a change in statistics, a request came in to go back up to or perhaps even to exceed the original detachment size, and we do respond positively to those suggestions. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Atto rney-General undertake to supply myself and I think the Member for Arthur, crime statistics for the past, say five years, in the three areas served by the detachments which he's closed. HON. R. PENNER: I may not be able to go back . . . MR. G.

MERCIER: And also undertake to supply us, have avai lable, at or preferably before the consideration of his Estimates next year, the statistics that are available from the time of the closing of the detachments up until that time next year. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I'll undertake to do that. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to spend a few minutes to try and relay to the Attorney-General the concerns of the constituents of Arthur and of course my colleague has touched on them for Winnipeg Beach.

I guess it would be appropriate to start with the shock waves that went through the constituency last fall, in the latter part of Septem ber, when word had leaked or had been obtained through, I guess it was RCM P or some connections, that there were in fact going to be two closures of detachments in the southwest corner of the province, which was extremely shocking to those communities and I'm sure the Deputy Attorney-General can concur with this, caused imme diate commun ication to his office from me and, as well, I was able to contact the Attorney-General dir ectly to di scuss what the proposals were.

In tact, my message to the reeve of the R.M. of Pipestone was what I had been reading and what my colleague, the critic for the Attorney General 's Departmen t, had been read ing out of Hansard; that, in fact, before anything would happen, there would be consultations. I have to admit I was extremely upset and put in an embarrassing situation as a member of the Legislature. I was going by what I had read in Hansard, what my colleague from St. Norbert had told me, and I was relaying this to the reeve.

Well, subsequently , the next day I was proven to be wrong, which no one likes to have done, but it happened, and I was upset and I commun icated that message to both the Deputy Attorney-General and to the Attorney-General. Subsequent to that, of course the Mi nister did carry out the consultative process with some arm-twisting and some jockeying of meetings. They really found out how upset the community was with the decision that had been taken, or the proposed decision that had been taken.

I can tell you that 1, 500 people probably turned out to two meetings, and I don't know how many letters the Attorney-General received from constituents o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	93277419b87ebe9f4a6a56d536c8f32b6f6137ea

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