Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 22A (31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-22a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time : 10 :00 a.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 21 March , 1980 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR• SPEAKER , Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birt le-Russell): Before we proceed , I should like to draw the honourable members ' attention to the gallery, where we have some students from Grades 6 to 9 standing from the Mary Mound School, under the direction of Mr. Hutcheson. This school is in the const ituency of the Honourable Member for St . Johns . On behalf of the honou rable members, we welcome you this morning.

Presenting Petitions • • • Reading and Receiving Petitions • • • PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speake r, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again. I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin , that report of Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPO RTS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek) : Mr.

Speaker , I would like to table the Annual Report of 1978-79 for the Department of Economic Development . MR . SPEAKER : Notices of Motion INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne ) introduced Bill No . 18 ,

An Act to amend The Surveys Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR . HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister responsible for Housing. Some questions were asked a couple of weeks ago pertain ing to moneys being provided to the Non-Profit Housing Corporation, City of Winnipeg , and the Minister at that time indicated that he had it under revie w. We note that announcement has been made by the Minister .

I would ask the Minister if he would elaborate insof ar as the amount of the funding and whether or not that funding is provincial or feder al . MR. JOHNST ON: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the funding is provincial and the details of it is that it is a commitment of $1 million over a five-year period to the City of Winnipeg Rehabilitation Housing Corporation . The moneys will be used by the corporation . We have a member of the Manitoba Housing Renewa l Corporation on the board. We also have extended to them the HOAP program, Home owners Assi stance Program.

If the corporation purchases a house and rehabilitates it , they can use - 1363 -

Friday , 21 March , 1980 the HOAP program. That means that it doesn't limit only people with a lot of funds to being able to purchase that house because our HOAP program will take effect and if the corporation rehabilitates a house and they decide to rent it , we would then , if they make application to the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation, the board will consider the rental subsidies, the same as we do in our own units , which is rental income . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR . PETER FOX : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My question is directed to the Ministe r of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs. Just recently there was a Supreme Court decision in respect to the regulations on food and the Minister indicated that the province would have to be looking at filling the gap in respect to regu lations. Can the Minister indicate what has been done to date , if anything? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affair s. HON. WARNER H. JORGE NSON (Morris): Well, Mr.

Speaker , there seems to be still some uncertainty as to just what the federal regulation provides for . our officials are looking into the matter to determine if there is any need for the provincial government to move into this area . At this point , it is not yet determined . MR . FOX: Yes, Mr. Spea ker. In view of the fact that the Minister is still trying to get a legal

interpretation, is he indicating that his officials still have not made a decision in respect to the particular case that was already brought before the courts and , in view of the fact that the federal department has decided not to prosecute in respect to ground beef additives, will he not consider looking at that , because it leaves the con sumer at the mercy of the retailer? MR . JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker , we are looking at all aspects of this particular situation. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS . JUNE WESTBURY : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My question is to the Minister of Health , and I am referring to the Council on Aging, which he has announced the appointm ents , and would he tell us whether the chairmanship of that council is considered a fU ll-time position and what the salary is, please? MR . SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Health . HO N. L.R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker , it is not a full-time position. The chairman is the matron of the Sandy Lake Nursing Home in Sandy Lake , Manitoba , and will be continuing in that capac ity.

I can 't advise the honourable member as to what the salary is at the present time , but I will inf orm the House when those rates are established . MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS . WESTBURY: On another matter , Mr. Speak er. On the 7th of March , I asked a question of the Minister of Finance and perhaps he or the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs co uld answer me now, if they have the inform ation .

This refers to a statement by the Minister of Consumer and Corporat e Affairs to the Morris-Macdonald School Board in January to the affect that houses in rural towns and in the country should be levied for education taxes and I asked at that time if , in view of the silence of the chairman of the Asses sment Review Commis sion , whether this is a statement of policy on the part of the government and , if so , when they would be making that announcement? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affai rs. - 1364 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 MR . JORGEN SON: Mr. Speaker , I met with Morris-Macdonald School Board on another matter and this subject just came up in the course of our conversation and , as my honourable friend may or may not be aware, the subject of taxation of fa rmland for education purposes is a subject that is of great concern to people in the rural areas , and we were just discussing this question generally and I men tioned that one of the ways in whi ch, perha ps, this matter could be dealt with was a change in the ass essment for education purposes.

It was not a statement of gov ernment policy ; it was simply a statement that was made in course of the con versation with the of ficials of the Morris-Macdonald School Division. While I •m on my feet , Mr. Speaker , I would like to respond to a question that was asked to me the other day by the Member for St . Johns with regard to the FLIP Program and whether , I believe his question was to the effect of whether or no t there were suffi cient safeguards under The Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act to handle that particular situation .

I've handed my honourable friend a somewhat lengthy and detailed answer to that question , but for the record I would like to just put a portion of that on the record so that my honourable friend will know that the question has been answered . Our department staff are of the opinion, having reviewed the disclosures required under The Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act, that it would be advisable to require that some additional disclosures be made to a FLIP mortgage borrower to ensure that there is no possibility of misunderstanding .

The regis trar, under The Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act, would pursue this matt er. The additional disclosure might be arranged on a voluntary basis if that can be done sati sf actorily; otherwise , any supplementary disclosure deemed desir able will be provided by way of new regulation. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplemen- tary . MRS . WESTBURY : Yes, still referring to my previous question, Mr. Speaker , I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs will be making his recommendations to the Assessment Review Commission. MR .

JORGENS ON : I feel it will not be nece ssary for me to do that , Mr. Speaker . That is the recommendation that has already been made by many of the municip alities throughout this province. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Johns . MR. SAUL M. CHEKRNI ACK : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I want to thank the Honourable Minister not only for his statement today but for the memorandum which he sent me , I think it was two days ago, dealing mo re extens ively with the problem of the proposal for FLIP mortgaging .

In view of the Minister 's statement to the effect that his dep artment does believe that it is advisable to require additional disclosure, and in view of the fact that it has been announced that the mortgage companies are actually proceed ing with this type of loan, and in view of the fa ct that it has already been revealed in his own department that certain finance companies have been in breach of The Mortgage Brokers Act at the expense of customers or consumers, does he not believe that there is an urgency involved in making sure that people are properly notifi ed of their rights and of the implications and ramif ications of a new pro gram which is already in place?

MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs. MR . JORGE NSON: Mr. Speak er, ye s, I agree with my honourable friend and we are undertaking to ensure that a wide public circulation of this particular material is made at the earliest possible date. MR . CHERNIA CK: Yes, Mr. Speaker . In view of the fact that this type of program is not limited only to the two firms that have announced their intention - 13 65 -

Friday , 21 March , 1980 to proceed , would it not be foolhardy to expect voluntary information being dis closed when his department actually believes that it is advisable to require this additional disclosure? Would it not be better to proceed by way of regulation immediately , rather than hope for voluntary participation by, as yet probably unknown , potential lenders? MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , I'd be happy to communicate my honourable friend 's suggestion to the Director of the Securities Commission and ask him to act upon it . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks . MR . SAUL A.

MIL LER: Mr. Speaker , to the Minister respcnsible for Housing . Further to his announcement this morning , or statement , I was wondering about that $1 mi llion; is this an honouring of the commitment made back in 1976-77 by the province to the City of Win nipeg, if they started a non-profit housing corpora tion? That 's one question . The other is: Is that money really needed now in the light of changes in CMHC financing of Non-Profit Housing Corporation? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR . JOHNSTON : Mr. Speaker , we honoured the commitment .

I believe it was ne arly a year ago now when we made a commitment to the city . Now the city decided, in their wisdom , not to go into the Non-Profit Housing Corporation, or Rehabilitation Corporation. Subsequently, the City Council changed its mind last fall and decided they would have a corporation, and the city made representation to the province , the Mayor and the committee , asking if we would consider being part of the corporation as we had suggested we would previously . It was considered by the government and it was decided that we would participate in the rehabilitation program.

Yes, I know that the member is referring to the non-profit housing program of the federal government , which we participate in. But at the present time , Mr. Speak er, CMHC funds for 19 80, are completely committed , and we do believe that the rehabilitation of core housing in Winnipeg is something that 's a necessi ty . MR . MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker , I gather from the announcement it 's $1 million over five years, which is $200 ,0 00 , and theref ore I really can't see how that , in itself, will do anyt hing .

My ques tion is , has the federal program today not been changed since 1977 to the extent that fed eral funding will in fact cover 10 0 percent of the capital required through a loan and that the moneys from the provincial government may not in fa ct be paid at all unless they simply bypass the federal government? MR . JOHNSTON: As I said , Mr. Speaker , the federal funds for their non -profit program or completely filled up for 19 80, that we will • the non profit or the corporation, the city 's corporation, could make applica tion but they won •t be able to do anything this year .

We believe that we should help the city get started , and that the core area needs that help. MR. SPEAKER: supplementary. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks with a final MR . MILLE R: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker . In that case , Mr. Speaker, even though the province may in fact advance some moneys to the cities this year , to the one- fi�h of a million dollars, that 's $200 ,0 00 dollars, that in 1981 federal funds will be available and , at that Point in time , federal funds will be adequate to meet the needs of the City of Winnipeg in their program. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development . MR. JOHNSTO N: Not necessarily , Mr. Speaker . The federal funds are used for the whole of Manitoba and the funds that may be committed to the core area - 1366 -

Friday, 21 March, 1 980 might not be enough if the Province of Manitoba says that we will work with the City of Winnipeg to help rehabilitation in the core areas . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkst er . MR . SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Natural Resources. Can the Minister confirm that the suggested increase in the Garrison Diversion by some type of memorandum of understanding between the State of North Dakota and the government of the United States is not an indication that there is a present intention to go ahead with an expanded program? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): That is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that in fact the rumour arose out of what reportedly has been a typo graphical error. It 's probably one of those typographical errors that has caused more or fewer than the average typographical error . I certainly will want to con tinue to pursue the subject until we are completely satisfied of the origination of the rumour and, when I am completely satisfied to that extent, then I will report to the House. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question with respect to the government 's position vi s-a-vis the Garrison Diversion. Can the Minister assure the Ho use that insofar as the people of Manitoba are concerned, as citizens of Manitoba and as citizens of Canada, the position on the Garrison will be taken by their elected representatives, by their governments, and not be delegated to wel l-meaning but self -appointed groups who are not responsible to the people of the Provinc e of Manitoba? MR . RANSON: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we as the elected government of the province have a responsibility in the management of our resources and the protection of the interests of Manitoba and we will discharge that respons ibility. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister further assure us that the gov ernment of Canada 's position and the government of Manitoba's position will not be complicated or compromised by any suggestion that we are involved in court pro ceedings or supporting court proceedings or backing court proceedings or financ ing court proceedings in the United States, which would put us within the jurisdiction of those courts and then result in our claim or any rights we have being decided by an American court, contrary to the wishes of the government of Manitoba and the government of Canada? MR . RANSOM: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I give the honourable member that assurance. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HO N. KEN MacMASTER (Thompso n): Mr. Speaker, I was asked a question as it related to the humping procedure that takes place in the Symington Yards. The term "hu mp", in this particular case, relates to one large track at the bottom of the hill of which there is 60 off-shute tracks connected to the main track. Each one of the 60 represents a destination on the route to Vancouver.

To ass emble a train, the required cars are let down the hump, a computer automatically judges the speed of the car, the wind, the temperature, etc . to adjust the tracks so that the cars speed do not exceed three miles per hour at the bottom of the track. Onc e cars reach the bottom, it 's automa tically switched into the appropriate destination track. The cars, once they 're in the right dest ination track, they 're assembled, and cars can be dropped off. Those that are to be dropped off first come to the end of the train track.

Procedures on this humping business is in the material that I have given to the Member for St . Vital . Basically, it says that - 13 67 -

Friday , 21 March , 1980 in humping liquid propane gas cars, the car has to be switched into its destina tion track before another car can be sent down the hill. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer Affai rs, and ask him whY the Winnipeg Inter-City Gas Limited recently received an approval from the M:lnitoba Public Utilities Board earlier this month for an increase in gas rates of some 7 percent , in view of the fact that they doubled their profit for the last fiscal year. MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs. MR . JORGE NSON: It 's one of those questions, Mr. Speaker , that I believe should be directed to the Public Utilities Board, but since I'm the Minister res ponding in the House to that particular question for that particular board, I will have to make some inquiries. I suspect that the evidence that was presented before the board was such as to enable the Public Utilities Board to make that particular decision. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether we can now assume , in view of high profits and an additional increase forthco ming, that there will be no increase in the price of natural gas for the next one to two years. MR. JORGE NSON: I wouldn't want to encourage my honourable friend to make any assumptions. That will remain the decision of the board when applica tions are placed before it. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOE RN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether there is a prov incial position or posture on natural gas prices in regard to an overall prov incial en ergy policy ; if so , what is it? MR. JORGEN SON : It 's my understanding that there is but I believe that I would prefer to have my honourable friend and colleague, the Min ister responsible for Energy, making that statement. MR. SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD w. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, on that question, the stated position of the province by the First Minister at the November Energy Conference was that the price of natural gas should not be tied to the price of oil, and we have maintained that position at that point and have since made every effort to drive it home in the discussions that have gone on on the pricing of natural gas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROED ER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Education, fol lowing up on my question of several days with respect to the meeting betwee n the Minister of Education and the Winnipeg School Board, which I understand will be taking place today . Can the Minister advise the House as to whether the matter of the 2,0 00 truants in Winnipeg No. 1 has now been placed on the agenda of that meeting? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli ): Mr.

Speaker, in the brief that I have received from Winnipeg No. 1, that particular topic is only alluded to but I can assure the member that in the general discussion that we will be having on the brief that that topic will be treated. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rossmere. - 1368 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 MR . SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , a ques tion for the Attorney- General. In view of the fa ct that we do have apparently approximately 2,0 00 children who should be in school legally in Winnipeg No . 1 who are not in school , I am wondering whether the Attorney-Gene ral's department can do something in order to ensure that this juvenile delinquency does not cont inue and to ensure that the government is not , by it 's fa ilure to do anythin g , contributing to this juvenile delinquency ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Gene ral. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , my understanding of that matter is that the Minister of Education, through his department , took some positive steps to improve that situation during the past year . With respect to the involvement of my department of my department in this matt er, I will take the question as notice and make some inquiries, Mr. Speaker . M. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR . SAMUEL USKIW: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to ask the First Minister, given the fa ct that a number of Premiers and former Prime Ministers in this country have had trust funds established for their benefit , could the Minister indicate to the House whether or not there is such a trust fund established for the purpose of providing supplementary income to him, over and above his MLAs and Premier 's salary at the present time? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker , I don 't know if that fa lls within the purview of being a matter of public interest at Question Period but I am quite happy to tell my honourable friend that I am not aware of any such fund and am not the recipient of any benefits from such fund , maybe I should say unfor tuna tely . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker , can the Premier indicate if such a fund exists for the purpose of providing future benefits to him? MR . LYON: Certainly not to my knowledge , Mr. Speaker . If he would like to establish such a fund and make the initial contribution, I am sure there would be a consistent salary. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bon net with a final supple mentary . MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister of Finance whether his department is going to do something about the problem of his depart ment asking various people throughout the province for ref unds on 1978 property tax rebates. This has to do with couples who were married in that year and apparently the

interpretation of the department is that one of them is only ent itled to a property tax rebate. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speake r , there has been no change in the practice. If there is a problem that is particular to the Member for Lac du Bonnet or a con stituent that has made enquiry, I would be glad to look into it . But there has been no change in practice in this regard. MR . USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker , there have been numerous inquiries.

Apparently this is something that has just arisen very recently and it appears the department is askin g for refunds fr om those people who were married in that year and therefore they are now proceeding to disallow them both their property tax rebate claims , on the basis that they are a married couple , notwithsta nding the fa ct that for a portion of the year they were not married. - 13 69 -

Friday, 21 March , 198 0 MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speak er, again if the member would wish to advise me further on it , I can inquire into a particular case , but only one rebate is al lowed by one income tax payer. If he is referring to someone who is receiving the rebate through the income system or directly through property tax , there is only one rebate per dwelling unit going back to , as the case is, to the person with the highest taxable income . MR • SPEAKER : plementary . The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final sup- MR . USKIW : Mr. Speaker , I am certain the Minister is aware of the

section under which this fa lls, when it states that in the taxation year , a principle tax payer and his spouse may occupy and inhabit separate residence but may only claim one rebate . But my example is the situation where people get married in a given year and the

interpretation is then followed under this section, which denies one of them their rightf ul rebate , given the fa ct that they have been living alone for a good portion of the year . MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker , we 're perhaps having some difficulty isolat ing the right question. I think the question - and am I correct in interpreting the question - is it that the regulations are now being enfor ced? Because there has been no change. If that was not being done before , I can inquire as to whether it was or wasn 't being done bef ore , but I can assure the member that there has been no change .

If in fac t refunds are being asked for now , it may be just that refunds are being asked for in a circle of acquaintanceship with which the member is fa miliar and it may have been going on all the time ; I suspect it has been. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMAST ER : Mr. Speaker , I was asked to get the amount of money that was involved for legal fees as it related to the Mr. Doug Duncan situation. It was $8 55.20. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Spea ker, I would like to pose some questions to the Min ister of Labour and he may wish to take these questions as notice . On November 17 , 19 78, the Minister of Labour issued a news service release indicating that a seminar had just been concluded pertaining to the identification and handling of trans portation accidents involving dangerous goods. The question to the Minister is whether or not , at that three-day seminar which was held in the latter part of 19 78, whether same included training pertaining to the handling of vinyl chloride. MR .

MacMAST ER : That particular conference that was held was held in Brandon, I believe . It 's one of several that are put on by people that I am res pons ible for . It 1 s meant to deal with hazardous chemicals that are worked with occasionally in the workplace in Manitoba , and I am not sure if vinyl chloride is used in the Province of Manitoba , so I doubt very much, Mr. Speak er, if that par ticular product would have been discussed at that time . MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , further to the Minister of Labour, the news in for mation release indicates the identification and handling of transportation ac cidents involving dangerous goods . If he hasn 't the inform ation this morning , would he advise whether or not at that meeting any procedures were established by him, as Minister or by his department , pertaining to the dealing with such ac cidents as the one at MacGregor, including the wearing of protective ap parel. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR .

Mac MASTER: Well, the words that the Leader of the Opposition has chosen are pretty definite when he says , as it relates to a situation similar to - 13 70 -

Friday, 21 March, 19 80 the MacGregor one . I don't think the Leader of the Opposition wants to go through the debate of what jurisdiction that is. I don't know precisely the terms of that particular conferen ce, but it cer tainly wouldn't, I don't believe in any way , shape or form , Mr. Speaker , have dealt with transporting of goods on CN property which is fed eral jurisdiction . MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , I would refer the Minister and ask him to accept as notice the news service release of November 17 , 1978 , which is quite precise as to the terms of reference of the conference which was sponsored by the Minister , December 2 to December 4, 1978 , and pertaining to dangerous goods being moved by all modes of transportation increasing each year ; the potential for accidents in vo lving such goods is on the rise . MR . SPEAKER : Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St . Vital . MR . D. JAMES WALDI NG : Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Honourable Min ister reporting for Manitoba Hydro.

A couple of weeks ago he took as notice a question from me regarding the sign ing of an employment contract with the Chief Executive Officer of Hydro and the corporation . Is he now in a position to report to the House? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRAIK : Mr. Speaker , I did enquire as to the question and at the time of the enquiry there were some details on the contract that had not been com pleted . They may well be completed at this point in time so I can't answer it specifically . I can answer that it wasn't at that time , I suspect it is by now.

With regard to I think what was the second part of his question of whether or not the contract would be tabled, I think the basic inf ormation would be made available and perhaps in recognition of the fa ct that the Crown corporations do report through the Public Utilities Committee , that that would probably be the appropriate place if the member wanted to question the Chairman of the utility, wi th regard to any matters internal to the utility.

But certainly, in overall terms , I would think that the basics of the contract probably already have been indicated publicly and he may wish to pursue it further at that time . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR . WILSON PARASI UK: Thank y ou , Mr. Speaker . My question is directed to the First Minister .

I wonder if he or a designate of his government would undertake to meet with the Manitoba Minister and the Federal Cabinet to determine if that Minist er's com mitment to railway relocation in Winnipeg is as strong and sincere after the fed eral election as it was before the federal election . MR . SPEAKER : Order please . Order please . I think that fa lls beyond the purview of this House. The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Point of order, Mr. Speaker . Yes, Mr.

Speaker , since railway relocation is in fac t of great importance to Manitoba , especially in view of the fa ct that both mainline railways which carry hazardous goods go directly through Winnipeg and there are no alternative bypass routes, I think this matter of railway relocation is of great importance to Manitoba and Manitoba' s role in trying to influence the federal government to provide suffi cient funds to see that it happens is of very prim e importance to the Manitoba Legislature and certainly falls within its purview . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister . MR . LYON : Mr.

Speaker , I have no problem in attempting to respond to my honourable friend because I happen to agree that the subject is one that we will - 1371 -

Friday , 21 March, 1980 probably be debating sometime during the course of Estimates of the Department of Urban Aff ai rs, or other departments during this session. I think his question is a valid question, Mr. Speaker . And I think that that determination as to the feelin gs of the federal government , the new federal gov ernment with respect to relocation , will have to be tested by the City of Winnipeg and by the Province of Manitoba in the light of previous statements made by some of their spokesm en out of office and prior to their being out of office on previ ous occasion s.

They are clearly on the record with respect to this matter and we look for ward , along with the honourable member, to asc ertaining what their actual policy will be now that they are back in office and in a position of having to fulfill their obligatio ns . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Economic Developme nt . MR . JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , I was asked a question by the Member for Ste . Rose regarding Rorketon , Manitoba.

The Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation was satisfied that the need ex isted in Rorketon and there are two duplexes, fo ur units of senior citizens accom modation approved for there . The units are built, one was bu ilt in Camperville and is ready; the other built in MacGregor and is ready. The reason for the delay is, we advertised for the foun dations for those two units last fall and the tenders came in at a total of $41 ,6 85 per unit for the foundatio ns . The board decided that this was a higher price than we should be paying and it was decided that it would be held over till the spring .

The tenders are out again on that and on November 20th , Duncan McLure, the secretary-treasurer of the Rural Municipality of Lawrence was inf ormed . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Ste . Ro se . MR . A.R. (Pete ) ADAM : Yes. I just want to thank the Minister for his in depth reply. I'm sure the people of Rorketon will be very very pleased to hear his comments. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Brandon East . MR . LEONARD S. EVANS : Thank you , Mr. Speak er.

I'd like to address a ques tion to the Minister of Financ e, responsible for energy policy in the province and ask the Minister whether it is still Manitoba 's position to support the province of Alberta in seek ing larger oil price increases. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , the Manitoba government 's energy policy has been addressed on a number of occasions in the House by the First Minister and I think perhaps even the same question has been addressed .

The policy of the Manitoba government is not in support of the ene rgy policy bf Alberta or the energy policy of Saskatchew an . The ene rgy policy of the Manitoba government with respect to oil is one that has been clearly stated - was stated last November, still remains - a goal of self-sufficien cy , not tied to world price , but tied to self-sufficien cy. Mr.

Speaker , the position with regard to natural gas is that natural gas should not be tied to oi l, that it should be released from the BTU equivalency formula of 85 percent that it was tied to bef ore and that we should see oil prices adjust as required for self-sufficien cy , but gas prices be unleashed. MR . EVANS : Mr. Speaker , a supplementary to the Honourable Minister . Will the Honourable Minister assure the House then that the province of Manitoba will actively oppose any increase sought by the province of Alberta? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. - 1372 -

Friday , 21 March, 1980 MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker , we are in a stage of repetition because my friend , the Leader of the Oppositi on was asking this same series of what I described then, as frivolous questions about two weeks ago .

The questions are equally frivolous now, even more so because in the interven ing period I sent to the Leader of the Opposition a copy of the statement deliver ed by the province of Manitoba at the Energy Conference on November 12, 19 79· I say now to my friend from Brandon East , if he will read that document he will be be tter inf ormed than he obviously was when he asked the question. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker , I'll try to find the document and read it .

But I'd like to ask the First Minister categorically, can he categorically assure the people of Manitoba that he will finally begin to protect their interests and op pose any and all oil price increases asked by the province of Alberta? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister . MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend can contin ue to ask all of the rhetorical questions that he wishes , continue his sloganeering --( Inte rjection )- My honourable friend , the Leader of the Opposition couldn't fig ht his way out of a wet paper bag so he could hardly hurt me . Mr.

Speaker -- (Interjection )- - My honourable friend obviously needs some more intelligence but if he 'll let me get on with my answer , I'll be quite happy to give it to him , Mr. Speaker . We can give the assurance, as we said in our energy statement , Mr. Speak er, on the 12th of Novem ber, that we will continue to advance those policies in the gen eral energy field that are in the public interest for all Manitobans and for all Canadians.

And that does not mean slavishly following some sloganeering type of approach that is made by the National Leader of the NDP and other people who are not properly interested in the development of self -suffic iency of oil in Canada. And may I add , Mr. Speaker , that in the overall field of energy in this province, the hydro-electric energy is an important one . We have seen demons trated the lack of competence of my honourable friends oppos ite in that field , so they are hardly in a posi tion to talk about energy policy to this government or anybody else . MR.

SPEAKER : The time for Question Period having expired , proceed with Orders of the Day . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Government House Leader . MR . MERCIER : Mr. Speaker, I first of all advise the members that the Rules Committee will meet next Tuesday at 10 :0 0 o'clock. Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Minister of Government Services , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply , with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the De partment of Highways and Transportation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS & TRANSPORTATION MR . CHAIRM AN, Mr. Morris McGregor (Virden): Call the committee to order. We 're on Resolution 87 , 8. (a)- -pass . The Member for Churchil l. - 1373 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 MR . COWAN: Yes, perhaps if we could just have an outline of where the money is going in 8.( a) , the $1 ,5 00 ,0 00 to which cities, towns and villages, if we could have that in written form if it 's easier to do that , but at some point if we could be advised of that . MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Minister. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the $1 .5 million is going to be expended this summer and this appropriation is, as it says , Aids to Cities , Towns and Vil lages on the grant need 50- 50 street , such things , and we don 't have the program outlined because we haven't received the requests by Council resolution as of yet . We will be receiving the requests over the next , let 's say , six weeks to ten weeks , that is when the program is officially laid out. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for Churchil l. MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairperson.

Perhaps then, we could have a breakdown of where the moneys were spent last year , and some indication from the Minister if he anticipates any major changes in expenditure this year . MR . ORCHA RD: In terms of total dollars, we are guesstimating app roximate ly , well , about $1 ,2 30 ,0 00 of the $1 .3 million of this year 's appropriation, that was as of January 30th. Now, we may have additional projects requested and ap proved since that .

The projects - there are 71 different communities throughout Manitoba which receive amounts varying from , oh , I guess, $1 90 ,000 in one in stance, down to a low of, I suppose $225 is the low. There are 71 projects all told. MR . COWAN : Would it be possible then, Mr. Chairperson , at some point in the proceedings to have a list provided to the opposition of those particular pro jects and the dollars spent on each one ? MR . ORCHA RD: Yes, I'll photostat that for you. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for The Pas . MR . McBRYDE : Yes, Mr.

Chairman, maybe the Minister has answered this ques tion bef ore , but I was away in The Pas yesterday , so I'm not sure. Whereabouts in the Budget is assi stance for Local Government Districts , does that come in another

section or is this part of this

section we 're dealing with , Maintenanc e? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, it •s Appropriation No . 5, Work in Unorganized Territory for Local Government Districts . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson , the other question was that the inform ation I asked for the other day , I wonder if the Minister put that in the record or whether he wants to hand me something now , in terms of traffic counts . MR . ORCHA RD: We 'll probably have that ready for this after noo n, I believe , Mr • Chairman. MR . CHAIRM AN: 8. (a) . The Member for Ste . Rose. MR . ADAM : I wonder if the - we ll, pass (a) , will you? MR .

CHAIRM AN: 8. (a)- -pass ; 8. (b)- -pass . The Member for St . George . MR . URUSKI : Yes. Mr. Chairman , could the Minister indicate spec if ically whe ther or not Aids to Cities, Towns and Villages, whether aids to reserve com munities would be included in that

section in terms of spec if ically building ac- - 1374 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 cess roads to community centres, whether there are funds appropriated under that appropriation or not? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr. Chairman . That will come under 5.( a) . MR . URUSKI : It would have come under 5.( a)? I happen to have been yester day in the Civil Service Estimate s, Mr. Chairman .

I wanted to know whether or not , specifically in terms of assi stance to the Lake Manitoba Reserve , whether in your program , which would not be part of the Highways Program , agreement has been reached , I know that agreement has been reached between Indian Affa irs and the band to provide the necessary surveys and culverts and land clearing in terms of providing the access road from PR . 235 to the community .

I was advised late last night that the Department of Indian Aff airs are prepared to contribute their share of the construction costs which amount to somewhere in excess of $1 00,0 00, whether or not there is room in the current assist ance programs , because it 's a global budget , to provide that kind of fle xibility if the federal department of Indian Aff airs is prepared to cost share their fif ty percent , whether the Province of Manitoba will be prepared to do their cost sharing and do the construction of the road that 's been in negotiation stages for the past three years. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, Mr.

Chairma n, the department advises me that to date we hav en 't got official communication by the federal government that there is some hundred thousand dollars or the figure mention ed by the member allocated , but that project was started last year and will be ongoing as federal cost sharing proceeds . MR . URUSKI : In other words, the Minister indicates that if the Department of Indian Affair s, federal government , do come up with their fifty percent cost sharing I think as is the normal agreement with these kinds of roads , the province would be prepared to go ahead . Is that the issue? MR.

ORCHA RD: That is correct. MR . UR USKI : Thank you. MR . CHAIRM AN : 8. (b)- -pass . The Member for Churchill. MR . COW AN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I just ask the Minister if he would outline the total mileage this year and the communities that are being serv iced and if he could at the same time give us the total mileage last year and the year bef ore and indicate if there are any changes in the number of communities being serviced by winter roads and if so , which communities have been either added to the system or dropped from the system during the past year and which ones he would anticip ate being added or dropped during the upcoming year . MR . ORCHARD: The mileage that was put out on winter roads this year was 791 miles.

Just hold a minute; I may have given a wrong fig ure here . Mr. Chairman , I stand corrected on 1979-80 ; this year 's Winter Road Program is 72 7 miles , not 79 1 miles as I indicated . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson . Then we would see a fair size drop from the previous year to this year that would equal 64 miles of winter road .

I'd ask the Minister if he can indicate what communities are not being serviced this year that were serviced last year , to account for that drop, or is that due to realignment of the winter road system, thereby cutting down mileage , yet maintain ing the same number of serviced communities. Could he indicate why the discrep ancy between this year and the previous year exists? MR . ORCHA RD : We had a road that was funded in 1978-79 in the vicinity of The Pas to the Saskatch ewan border whi ch , by my inf ormation , has been dropped .

Garden Hill to Red Sucker Lake was not funded this ye ar, with the exception of the - 1375 -

Friday , 21 March, 1980 $1 3, 215 commitment that we made in conjunction with the federal government , which was after the program was drawn up. MR . COWAN: Can the Minister then indicate how much money was spen t on the Garden Hill to Red Sucker Lake winter road addition last year? He indicated this year the provincial government is putting in $1 3, 000.00. I understand there 's other government agencies that are putting in money to enable that road to be built , but I would appreciate some fig ures as to the savings that the government antic ipated on not extendin g the road into Red Sucker Lake this year .

MR . ORCHA RD: Last year , we contributed $10 ,0 00 , but now it 's part and parcel of 727. You see , I didn 't think that we had included 791 miles last year , the Red Sucker Lake road , which we did; and adding that one back in because it is funded again this year , our mileage is up to 78 9, not the 727 that I indicated earlier. This year we have offered a commitment of up to $13 , 215 on that and we haven't flowed any cash to that as of yet . MR . COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Chairperson.

If I understand the Minister cor rectly then, last year the provincial government funding on that particular sec tion of road was $1 0, 000 and this year it 's $13 , 250.00.

I would ask the Minister if there is any effort on government 's part or any intention on the government 's part to include the Red Sucker Lake road into the network so that each year we don 't have to go through this particular problem of trying to decide whether or not the road will be funded and thereby the community is unable to make plans as to shippin g schedules, is unable to , in any sort of comprehensive way , plan their winter shipp ing . So what happens is, they come down with hat in hand and they 're not certain whether they are going to get the money .

We go through a long tortu ous process , as the Minister is aware , of meetings and not meetings , and more meeti ngs , and fewer meetings . It 's a very complicated procedure that need not be if the Red Sucker Lake road was just included in the total negotiations , as is a road to Garden Hill or as is a road to Ste . Therese Point or the road to Waasago mach , I believe . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, as the Member for Churchill is aware , that par ticular winter road is part of the Me-Ke-Si Company group contract .

Now that was a three-year contract that was undertaken, I guess , by the previous administra tion, to provide road service to specified communities, and Red Sucker Lake was not one of the speci fied communities in that contract . That contract was the only way that we could enjoy 50 -50 funding with the federal government , for instance, even Berens River , was left out of that contract .

And what we have been attempt ing to do on the provincial level with the federal givernment , first of all we attempted to include Berens River on the 50- 50 cost sharing which the federal gov ernment would not participate in - oh , they would participate in it , providing they didn't exceed their commitment of $400 ,0 00 funding per annum. Now with the existing contract, they were at , I believe , $391 ,0 00 of expenditure and the Berens River Road estimate , I believe - yes , it was a $50 ,0 00 contract for that other 40 miles.

Now we attempted to get the federal government to share in that additional $50 , 000 on the 50-50 basis; but since that would have placed them over their $400,0 00 commitment , they saw fit not to participate , which is fa ir bal l.

So at that point in time , we undertook that 40 miles, $50,0 00 , on our own provincial commitment with no federal sharing , and that left us with , when we got down to the Red Sucker Lake funding fia sco , shall we call it , that left us in the uncomf ort able position of already having over-expended the appropriation that we had for the Me-Ke-Si contract , being approached to expend even more dollars, when at the same time it put me in a rather dif ficult position that the federal government would not even participate up to their $400 , OOO ; they wouldn't even add a $9 , OOO out of the $50, 000 for Berens River; and I suppose , that 's the main source of the back and forth negotiations that Me-Ke-Si , Chief Harper , Red Sucker Lake , myself and the federal government had .

It ended up that under the wire we did come to some sort of an arrangement , but certainly , not a satisfactory one . Now, this summer, this is the last year of the Me-Ke-Si contract . We don 't know , at this time , what the federal government 's position is going to be on fund ing next year , so the additional appropriation that we 've put in here of $300 ,0 00 - 1376 -

Friday, 21 March, 198 0 for Winter Roads is very much dependent upon the federal government continuing a 50 -50 sharing of the Me-Ke-Si contract , because if they don 't, we , by no way , have enough money appropriated here to carry on those roads at 100 percent provincial funding .

Those negotiations will, of course , take plac e - I'm speculating on time - but let 's say June, July, well in advance of the construction season, and we will be discussing with the federal government , Red Sucker Lake and the potential of cost-sharing on that road, but we won 't have a spec if ic decision on that until mid-summer, I would guess timate. MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson .

Then we do have a commitment from the Minister as far as the provincial government is concerned , that they will be pushing for an extension of the winter road system into the Garden Hill area , into Red Sucker Lake , on a permanent basis? MR . ORCHARD: We are going to make that part and parcel of our representa tion to the federal government . MR . COWAN : Thank you.

Moving to another area, the more northern part of the province, I had written to the Minister awhile back in regard to a road from Lac Brochet to by the community of Brochet, and then down into Co-op Point , off of Reindeer Lake and then down into Lynn Lake through the Co-op Point Road and was, at this point , wondering if the Minister has had any information that he can pass on to me in regard to the construction of that road .

I believe that road was to be constructed to allow a construction company ac cess out of the community so that they could move their heavy equipment out that had been used in constructing the airport at Lac Brochet . While I was trave lling through the area, of course , the people in Lac Brochet were quite concerned as to whether or not that road would be built, and at that time , as the Minister knows , we had a slow freeze or we had a mild beginning of the winte r and there was not enough ice , so at that point it was a moot point as to whether or not that road would be built.

It just couldn 't have been built with the ice conditions that were there, but I understand now that there is enough ice , and that the road could be built. And when I travelled then on to the community of Brochet, the residents of Brochet said if the road is going down by this area, in the past it has passed within a couple of miles of our community and would it be possible to drive an ice road out to catch that road so they could transport , particularly fuel, I think that was a primary concern, fuel, and also other staples into the community on that road.

In other words, it would be a very inexpensive manner to connect up to the road . Having not heard from the Minister since I wrote him that letter, and I real ize that it is a busy time of the year for him in regard to winter roa ds, I'd ap preciate it now if he could bring me up to date on that situation . MR .

ORCHA RD: Well, I can •t bring you exactly up to date because as of about, I guess , 10 days ago , the last time we made inquiries about - construction equipment for the airport has to come out, that was the main reason for the road coming down - and as of about 10 days or so ago , they were still quite concerned about having enough ice to get that equipment out. Right now , I don 't know whether they have , in fa ct , got out and having got out, would be able to have someone get in. MR .

COWAN : Perhaps , since that information is a number of days old, the Minister could undertake to find out what the situation is currently , as to whether that road has been built . I understand , also , and the Minister may want to correct me on this, but from my conversations in the community, they were ant icipating that Hydro will be using that road that was used to bring equipment out, to bring their heavy equipment in, in the form of diesel generators, so it was to serve --( Interjecti on )- - okay , well, perhaps the Minister can check into that also , when he is reviewing the ent ire situation.

I have also , previous to the winter road season beginning , have received re presenta tion from some of the residents of the community of Sherridon in re gard to extending a road off of the ManFor road up into that community , and would ask the Minister if he can bring us up to date on any proceedings that have resulted out - 13 77 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 of correspondence between himself and myself, and also correspondence between re sidents of that community and himself . MR . ORCHARD: Well, as I understand the background on that , the department wasn 't involved in the extension of that road . I believe , two years ago , the com munity council of Sherridon received some thing in the neighbourhood of $180 ,0 00 or $1 90 ,0 00 , Canada Works Grant - I believe it was under Canada Works Program - for the construction of that approximately 27 or so miles of road .

That funding was to provide employment and a lot of manual labour for the clearing of the road over a two-year period . Appare ntly , in the original estima te , there was within that $180 ,0 00 or $1 90,0 00, a certain figure , be it $1 5,0 00 or $20,0 00 for equipment rental. Now, as I understand it , the community undertook a commitment rental or rented a dozer, a bulldozer, cat , from I don 't know whom, to undertake the work last winter , and that work was not completed by the person they hired.

This winter , they found that they could not complete their project with manual labour and they applied to, first of all , my district office in The Pas , for assist ance in providing a bull dozer to them, and that request was referred to my department , and we have no framework under which we could provide them with assis tance - the road didn 't fall under any program that we were administering - and in the interim of reply ing that we would have no funding , it appeared as if the community organization retained a cat operator and then presented the department with a bill for $19 ,0 00. 00 .

Since we had no framework and were in the process of replying that we would have no financ ial commitment , we were lef t with , not just the somewhat un pleasant task of indicating to the community that we could undertake no financial participation on behalf of completion of that road , we also had the second onerous task of sending back a bill of some $1 9, OOO which was presented to us, and I be lieve , in about 10 days ' time or thereabouts , I'm meeting with Mr. Angus Spence and the group to discuss this matter further . That is the last status report that I have on that particular project . MR .

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson . I thank the Minister for updating me . I had not known about the $19 ,0 00 bill. I have to admire the initiative , although the timing perhaps might not have been exactly as it should have been. I just ask the Minister , having just received this informa tion , if the road was com pleted . MR . ORCHAR D: It 's my understanding that they complete the road , yes . MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairperson . Perhaps I shouldn't take this so lightly , I assure you I don't take it lightly .

It 's exactly the type of problems that many times we do face with communities that are not experienced in dealing with government departments to a great deal, not experienced in dealing with bur eaucracies to a great deal , and therefore , take upon themselves certain actions that perhaps are untimel y, although the initiative was there .

I know that the people in that community were very conc erned as to whether or not that road would go in and that the road meant quite a bit to them, not only in terms of winter road transportation but also in terms of trying to push through the bush a path for a permanent road , if the occasion should ever present itself where they could have funding for that . It 's my understanding that when they were looking at the area and looking at the route of entry for that road , that they were concerned with that .

Can the Minister inform us as to whether they have sat with him and discussed the possibility of turning that road into an all-weather road? I'm certain they 're not thinking about a paved road at this point; they ' re thinking about a bush road , but one that could be utilized on a year round basis. Has the commun ity approached the Minister in regard to this speci fic route of entry into their community? MR . ORCHARD: Well, I' 11 answer the last question fi rst . No , no they haven't .

But on the member 's comments about not knowing how to initiate dealings with bureaucracies and with government departments , with all due respect to the Member for Churchill, I suggest those communities operate with a great deal of - 13 78 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 skill in dealing with various government departments . As he is well aware , they received some $180 ,0 00 or $1 90 ,0 00 from the federal government, part of which was a machinery grant , and I think they undertook with sufficient and very good exper tise to receive funding for that road . Where possibly the failure came in was in retaining a contractor last winter and apparently paying out similar amounts of funds to what they had to pay out this year , but last year having a contractor that did not adequately perform the service ,

whereas this year the contractor ap parently did do , by and large, an adequate job of performing the contract. MR . COWAN : I think if the Minister will review my remarks in Hansard when it becomes available to him , he will see that I didn 't say that they had lacked initiative. I said that sometimes their experience results in these sort of un timely presentatio ns of bills occurring. In other words, that their mistake was not in their ef fort but their mistake was in presenting a bill to the Minister before the Minister had had an opportunity to approve the funding allocation in the first place .

That 's a type of mistake that happens in all areas . I'm not placing the blame solely on northern communities . It happens in rural communities I am certain, also it happens throughout the province. It happens in a number of dealings with the government and I am certain that the Minister can tell us stories of this happening in other ways under other circumstances. So I by no mea ns wish to isolate any of the communities in the north in regard to their abil ities to deal with the government .

I just, by that statement , wanted to point out that there are sometimes mistakes that do occur, and that they do occur because of a lack of experience in certain respects, but that the motivations always appear to be for the most part sincere motivation s.

I would ask the Minister , now that we have bef ore us a bit of a kafuddle, where we have a $1 9, OOO outstanding bill, that the Minister info rms us that he can't pay because there is no room for that allocation in his department , or they haven't been able to find a place to put it yet , is the Minister prepared to work with the community when they do come here , in pointing them to the right places to go for the purpose of finding some funding to take care of that outstanding bill?

That was the point that I was trying to make , that they are now going to need some assistance in some clearing of the path in regard to them acquiring funding in order to pay for that $19 ,O OO bill. So is the Minister prepared at this point , when they do meet with him in a number of days, to make certain that they have information provided to them as to the proper places to go for that funding? And the Minister also I would hope would be willing to support them in their repre sentations for funding knowing full well the importance that that road plays in the lif e of that community. MR . ORCHA RD : Mr.

Chairman , it is certainly my intention to suggest other areas where the funding might be more appropriately forthcoming to the group when they come in . MR . CHAIRM AN : 8. (b)- -pass . The Member for The Pas or the Member for Churchill if he's still on the same . MR . COWAN: We 're still on the Winter Road System. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN : I'm going to bounce around a bit more because there are a number of winter roads in my constituency . Can the Minister inf orm me if there is any provincial involvement in the winter road from South Indian Lake to Tadoule Lake? MR .

ORCHARD : No , Mr. Chairman . MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Further to that can the Minister info rm me if there is any provincial involvement in the winter road from Gillam to Shamattawa , which I understand has been pushed through , I haven 't received con firma tion but I have been told by residents of Gillam that that road is pushed through . - 13 79 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 MR . ORCHARD: No , once again, Mr. Chairman , that 's a road that 's put in by private contractor under permit . MR . COWAN: can the Minister indicate how many of those permits have been allocated to private contractors for roads of those nature? MR . ORCHARD: No , I can't. Mr. Chairman , those permits have to be acquired by the Department of Natural Resources . It 's under their jurisdiction. They 're over Crown lands usually. MR . COWAN: Can the Minister indicate if there is any anticipation on his

part in regard to extending the winter road system further? There are a number of communities like Brochet , Lac Brochet , Tadoule Lake , Shamattawa , I know that Gillim has asked for one . I know that Churchill would appreciate one even though those two communities are serviced by ra il. It does make a difference to the com munity also having a winter road in to their community . I know that one of the primary concerns that are expressed to me , espec ially as the winter season approa ches, as I travel through the north, is, are we going to get a winter road this year .

I think it 's an important aspect of any commun ity 's existence, espec ially where there is no other ava ilable means of land trans portatio n. The fact that they have a winter road , cuts down the cost of trans porting goods into that community , they don 't have to rely upon the transportation by air which is expensive and time consuming as well as not being as expedient as having the road into the community .

It also enables many people in the community to get out of the community using their own vehicle , which is a fringe benefit of the winter road system , but is no less important to those people who live in those communities than many of the other benefit s. And I am speakin g now speci fically in reference to communities such as Gillam and such as Churchill where you may already have a rail connection going through, but that it would enable the people more access to the larger communities in the north if they did have a winter road system.

It seems to me as if the - well, it 's more than it seems to me , it 's a fact that the mileage in the winter road is decreasing year by year al though this year 's decrease was a minor decrease , but the 1978-7 9 figures were down from 197 7-78 and there have been decreases from years previous to that . I know the Member for The Pas can probably correct me , but I believe at one time it was up around 900 miles of road in the winter road system. A number of the miles that have been cut of f have been cut off due to the in corporation of previous winter roads into the permanent road system.

In other words, the road to Split Lake was a previous winter road , is now I assume not in cluded in the Winter Roads statistics because it has been incorporated as an all-weather road with a ferry connection.

So I can understand the reasons for some of the decrease in mileage but I can 't understand why we are at the same time , connecting these roads up and de creasing our winter road mileage , why we can't be ext ending winter roads to other communities that have been asking for a number of years , for that extension into their community , because it will have a tremendous economic impact , a positive impact on the cost of bringi ng fuel and the cost of bringing staple grocery goods into the communities, and for that reason should be a priority ; I know it 's a pri ority of the community .

It should be a priority of the government if the govern ment is concerned with providing those communities with the best possible exist ence and also increasing the standard of living through Government Services. So I would ask the Minister if there is any intention on his government 's part to begin to extend the winter road into communities that have not previously been serviced by such roads in the past. MR . ORCHA RD : Well, Mr.

Chairman , we 've got a rather interesting position in that it 's my understanding - or not an understanding but my feelin g that it's not only the province but it indeed is the federal government , which has a certain responsibility to provide these winter road connections to the various communities - and under the present funding arrangement only about 360 miles, for rough figures, of the current 790 miles of winter roads are funded jointly with the fed- - 1380 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 eral government and we have got a number of miles that we are funding 100 percent provinc ial dollars. And an expansion in the program, I feel , should come as a joint ef fort between the federal and provincial governments and I don 't think that 's an abrogation of respons ibility to those communities that the Member for Churchill mention s , but rather a genuine interest in assuring that we can adequately handle finan cially , the implications of the Winter Road Program in Manitoba.

We are , as the member can see, budgeting for about a 25 percent increase in funding next year , to help increase the service provided by winter roads . But I ce rtainly intend to undertake with the federal government , negotiations on further cost -sharing with them. MR. COWAN : Well, the reason that I bring this point up at this time , Mr.

Cha irperson, is that the Minister has indicated that they will be going into nego tiations with the federal government and I had wanted to bring these concerns that have been expressed to me on numerous occasions by my constituents and which I regard to be not only legitimate but very timely concerns , to his attention so that when he does go into negotiations with the federal government , he can proceed with the knowledge that there are numerous communities in the north yet that are not serviced that would like to be serviced and perhaps he can make that a part of his negotiating stance.

I'm not asking the provincial government to take the fiscal respons ibility on to themselves. I know that there are procedures and negotiations that one has to follow in regard to encouraging the federal government to help , or to take their fa ir share of the cost money when we 're dealing with reserve communities in parti cular. I would just hope that he would be encouraging them to do so and that we can look at the communities, in specific , of Shamattawa which is a community that could well use a winter road system.

Look at the communities of Lac Brochet , to do with the lake; Pukatawagon, had approached me in regard to a winter road , or even an all-weather road , a winter road that would eventually be extended to an all winter road from the 391 Highway to High Rock Lake and from High Rock Lake , where a goodly portion of their fis hing industry is located , from High Rock Lake • into the community itself . I'd ask the Minister if he 's been approached by the people of Pukatawagon in regard to that winter road extension and if so what the status of those negotiations are , presently? MR .

ORCHARD : Yes, both Sheridan in the pas t, although Sheridan 's problem is somewhat alleviated now, but Pukatawagon has approached us and we have not par ticipated in funding there on a winter road primarily because they are not a 100 percent isolated community from available ground transportation, with their access to rail service . MR . COWAN : Well, I would imagine that when the community , or the repre sentat ives of the community, did approach the Minister , that they talked about the impact that this winter road would have on their fishing industry off of High Rock Lake.

Even though they are serviced by rail there seem to be some difficulties in that servicing and they have presented to me what seemed to be very logical ec onomic arguments for the winter road , for the winter fishing season and also for an extension of that road as a permanent road so that their summer fishin g season could also be accommodated by the transportation, the trucking out of fish which is far cheaper to them than is the transportation by rail.

So I would hope that the Minister would take that under advisement when dis cussing this item when determining if that winter road is nece ssary to the system. Because what we 're talking about in every instance of winter roads, is we 're talking about the economic viability of that winter road to the community. The winter road itself does not benefit the province as a province except that it pro vides for the people in that community , greater access to services that other people enjo y and also provides to them a more economical me thod of transporta tion.

So in that respect , what is good for one community is good for the entire province. It does benefit the province. In the other respect they 're not used very much for tourism. They 're not used very much for interprovincial travel. They 're not used very much for the other - 13 81 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 forms of travel that we see other roads being used for . They have a very specif ic purpose and that purpose is very specif ic to any community . But they can make a substantial difference in the cost of living for people in those communities.

If you 're fr eighting in fre ight - and espec ially when you start talking about liquid fre ight where your gallon gasoline is roughly 10 pounds - and you start at that point multiplying the differential between air fre ight and ground transporta tion and you find that you 're paying a difference in a dollar or two per gallon, once you get it into the community .

And one knows that if we have a good winter road season, which I'm not certain this year was because of the weather conditions , but that if we do have a good winter road season , the community can move in bulk, a substantial portion of the fuel that they are going to be using in the upcoming year ; and can also move in other goods, lumber, if they are doing construction ; they can move in heavy equip ment if that 's necessary . So the winter road has a - even though it 's of a very limited duration - has an impact throughout the year in the community .

I can only encourage the Minister , wi thout taking too much time on this item , when comm unities do come to him with representations for these winter roads , they are usually coming with very sound economical arguments and they are usually pro viding a very sincere perspective as to why they want that winter road and what impact that winter road will have on their livelihood as well as on their standard of living .

So I can encourage the Minister to listen carefully , and also when he is determining the ec onomic cost of those roads to the province to , at the same time , concern himself with the economic cost of not having those roads to the com munities themselves , because it is a substantial cost .

And having said that , I look forward to watchin g with some interest the negotiation s between the provinc ial government and the federal government in regards to extending the road system and hope that when we discuss this item next year during the Estimates that we are able to talk about a larger mileage item and a larger number of cummunities being serviced . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas . MR . McBRYDE : First of , Mr. Chairperson , I would like to give the Minister some advice in terms of how to negotiate on this matter .

What the approach that the Minister could take , and probably the most effec tive ap proach is to deal with those communities that are mostly treaty Indian . Tell them that the province is willing to consider assistin g with the winter road , providing that the federal government puts in 50 percent of the dollar s, than have the community do the neg otiation with the federal government , because the federal government seems to be much more willing to listen to the communities and negotiate with the communities then they are with the province . And , Mr.

Chairperson, this is how we fin ally got some cost-sharing on the road into Island Lake and Me-Ke-Si contract, and at that time , Mr. Chairman, I thought it was important to have that cost- sharing fund av ailable to us, and even though the Conservative Minister of Northern Aff airs was very critical of reaching that agreement , that was the only way we could get 50/50 cos t-sharing , was having that long-term agreement with Me-Ke-Si , and get the fed eral dollars into Manitoba for that necessary kind of construction program.

The Minister is in a bit more difficult y when he is dealing with communities like Sheridan , where there are no or very few treaty Indians living . I mea n, there is no legal reserve there. But in the case of legal reserves , he can , by proper negotiation, probably get some cost -sharing on those projects, as he prob ably learned in negotiating with Red Sucker Lake. One of the problems is that it usually takes such a long time to get the negotiations complete that the winter is over and the winter road season is over , and the Minister has already had that experience. Mr.

Chairman , what I would like to ask the Minister is, that in the past there was detailed statistics given out to members .

In fa ct, we used to issue once a week a statement in terms of - and it contained the basic inform ation of the com munity served, the mi leage of the winter road , the contractor for the winter road, whether or not it was a cost-sha red, whether it was a 50 /50 road or 100 percent provincial road , the date the road was opened this year and the date the road was open ed last year , the freight hauled last year and the freight hauled this year to date , and sometimes the projection of how much fre ight was yet to go in. I wonder - 1382 -

Friday , 21 March , 1980 if the Minister has that kind of information available for the various roads which used to be compiled on a regular basis , and if he does have that inform ation if he could give it to us at this point . MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Minister . MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , I don't have it week-by-week per se , but what I am going to have provided is the year-end results into each community as to how much freig ht went in, how many truck loads and what the commodities were . MR . McRYDE : Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could, since we ' re con sidering this item in his Estimates now , give us what information he has available now .

I'm particulary interested in the mileage , the contractor, whether or not it 's cost-shared , the date it was ope ned last year , the date it was open ed this year , and the goods hauled to date , and I am sure that the Minister - at least that information used to be forw arded on a weekly basis in the past - whether he has that information and if he could give us an update to today and since today is the last day of winter roads anyway , it will probably be a fa irly accurate update. MR . ORCHARD: Well, we don 't have the opening dates here .

Me-Ke-Si 's road program opened on the , I think it was the 4th of February , that 's only from mem ory. We can confirm that for this aft ernoon. And the other stretches of winter roads, I wasn 't as closely involved with them because we didn 't have quite the same climatic problems seemingly on that . In terms of contractors , we have Gil bert North undertaking 23 miles for us this year. MR . McBRYDE : Where is that? MR .

ORCHARD: They are taking Oxford House to 23 miles east on the Oxford House to God's Lake Narrows winter road, and we have Oxford House band taking on 42 miles including the ice bridge on the Hayes River , and that 's from mile 87 to mile 129 on the Cross Lake to Oxford House winter road . Now you' 11 pardon me if my pronunciation is not a hundred percent . Pimichikamae , 50 miles of road , mile 37 to mile 87 on the Cross Lake to Oxford winter road , Berens River band from Ber ens River southerly, 40 miles. Ilford Community Development Corporation , that is 40 miles.

Split Lake from the ferry landing at mil e 81 on the Split Lake road to York Landing at Ilford , and with access into Split Lake . God 's Lake band of Indi- ,a ns has got a 38 mile track from Oxf ord House to God 's Lake Narrows, and then .-Ood' s Lake Narrows Lodge Limited has 4 miles on God 's Lake with access to the nursing station . And the Cross Lake bank of Indians has the north Whiskey Jack Ferry Landing , from the north Whiskey Jack Ferry Landing , to the Community of Cross Lake . And from the junction of the Garbage Dump road to mile 37 on the Cross Lake to Oxford House winter roa d.

South Indian Lake Community Council has 8 miles from South Bay to the start of the all-weather road in the community. Now , those roads , and my department will correct me if I am wrong , those roads are 100 percent provincial funding . There is no cost sharing on any of these. MR . McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman , there is one

part I didn 't ask and that is, does the Minister have the cost of the • • • price of the contract? MR . ORCHARD: I can give you the total cost and features if you want . MR . McBRYDE : If he has the cost per mile breakdown as well, I am not sure. MR . ORCHARD: Well okay , I'll give you one more item , namely , the 359 miles under the Me-Ke-Si , and that was at a cost of $869 ,0 00 this year , and we are budgeting for a total of $1 , 365 , 570 expenditure, so if we deduct the $869 , OOO , almost a $500,0 00 for the balance of those first mileages that I gave the member. MR .

McBRYDE : Yes, I'm sorry, I missed the Minister 's last answ er. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, the $49 6,5 70 would be the Budget fig ure for the above-mentioned 100 percent provincial funding roads . - 1383 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , could the Minister give me the detailed breakdown, that is, Gilbert North contract "X" dollars? MR . ORCHARD: Yes. MR . McBRYDE : Band Council contract . MR . ORCHARD: Have you got some itemized down there? I can give you the numbers, as we have the costs here. MR. McBRYDE: I didn 't take numbers down , Mr. Chairman . MR . ORCHARD: The 23 miles will give you - you've got the contractor , have you not? MR . McBRYDE: Go ahead . MR. ORCHARD: $41 ,7 20 , Gilbert North ; $7 5, 000 , Oxford House Band ; Pimichikamac , $84, 750 .00. is? The Member for The Pas .

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could tell me who that MR . ORCHAR D: I'll spell it for you. P-i- m-i-c-h-i- k-a- m-a-c . MR . McBRYDE : Is that a community council corporation, or a band council corporation, or a group of individuals or ••• MR . ORCHARD: It 's a community corporatio n. MR . McBRYDE: From which community? MR . ORCHARD: From Cross Lake?

Berens River Band , the 40 miles is at $50,0 00; Ilford community Development Corporation, $72, 70 0; God 's Lake Band, $57 , 500 ; God 's Lake Narrows Lodge Limited , $10 , OOO ; Cross Lake Band of Indians , $82,3 00 and South Indian Lake $22 ,6 00 .00. MR . McBRYDE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman , does the Minister have the opening dates for any of these roads? MR . ORCHARD: No , not here , Mr. Chairman . MR . McBRYDE : From that answer , Mr. Chairman, I'm assuming that it is some where , and maybe the Minister could provide it . MR . ORCHARD : Yes, we 'll try to have that for you this after noo n. MR .

McBRYDE: Provide it to us at a later date . I wonder if the Minister could just tell us a little bit in terms of the administrative structure, now that this work 's under, like the supervisors or the overseeing , and if he could give us some idea of how much flying is being done , in terms of , as part of the super vision or the checking of the progress on roads, etc . MR . ORCHARD: I understand that the same person who used to be in Northern Affairs Transportation Services is looking after the Me-Ke-Si group roads out of Lac du Bonnet , but the department doesn't have his name .

And for the 10 0 percent provincial funded roads , those at South Indian Lake , etc., etc ., Mike Kapetz , he 's operating out of Thompson and is the main supervisor on that - and we don 't have flying time delegated to the various roads. - 1384 -

Friday, 21 March , 198 0 MR . McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman , just a little bit more detail on that structure . So there 's a general co-ordinator out of Lac du Bonnet or at south end , and there 's a general co- ordinator out at Thompson for the north end , which are 100 percent provincial roads, and what kind of supervisory staff does the de partment have , and does the department have any term staff or staff that are just for winter roads during the season . I wonder if the Minister could give us a lit tle more detail on that . MR .

ORCHAR D: Like the Thompson sub-office handles most of the - that 's where Mike Kapetz works out of - and he handles, with the district office staff or the sub-district office staff people , assist him in carrying out those particular roads ; and the similar thing - Lac du Bonnet , being a sub-office of Selki rk, we have our district office staff available to provide whatever supervision is re quired. But in terms of specific numbers, I can't give you whether there 's 5 men out at Lac du Bonnet that 's in addition to the supervisor, or 3, or 2. MR. McBRYDE: Okay . MR .

ORCHAR D: Out of Lac du Bonnet , we have a three-person inspection staff . MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson , on the Me-Ke-Si contract, is it the province that 's - and Red Sucker Lake , now that it 's been added in there - is it the prov ince that gives the approval for pay-outs, or is it the federal government that inspects and says they 've done so much work and the pay-out can take place? MR . ORCHARD: The province . Yes, Red Sucker , it 's in loose terms , if you include it in the Me-Ke-Si contract , because it was above and beyond the Me-Ke-Si contract .

The province is responsible for pay-out on the original Me-Ke-Si roads , excluding Red Sucker Lake . MR. McBRYDE: Me-Ke-Si contract . of pay-out? Yes, Mr. Chairman , that 's clear to me , in terms of the main What is the present arrangement , then, for Red Sucker in terms MR . ORCHA RD: Well, we haven 't received the cost Estimates of how much it cost them to put that road through yet . But, as I understand it , they have a com mitment from Manpower federally for some dollars , and they have a commitment from us for some dollars towards the construction of that road . MR . McBRYDE: So , Mr.

Chairman , the Minister will be receiving a bill up to a max imum, is that how it will work? MR . ORCHA RD : That 's how we hope it will work . That was a rather rapid - we didn 't write up a forma l contract , such as we have with Me-Ke-Si , specifying so many dollars per mile , etc . etc . This was a last-ditch ef fort to get it through , so that one will be proceeded with , not on a very forma lized route , but we expect to receive a billing from the Red Sucker Lake peop le , the contractor , for their cost involved in putting that road through. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I would like to jump now , to a different area , and that is in the 1978-79 season , the Minister mentioned a road, a winter road , from The Pas to the Saskatchewan border , and I wonder what conditions made that road necessa ry last year and not necessa ry again this year . MR . ORCHA RD : Well, that one , I'm not too terribly fami liar with but, ap parently, that road was a trapper road and I don 't believe it led to any specific community, and it was just dropped from funding for that reason . Was there any fre ight ever carried on that particular stretch?

It was primarily providing truck or vehicle access , rather than snowmobile access to trapping routes, appa rently. I don 't have very much knowledge on that one , because it was never even considered as part of this year 's funding . - 1385 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister has the figures there for one of the costs of construction and the cost of maintenance for that particular road. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, appa rently, last year , the contractor received $700 .00. MR . McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairma n, then, I'd like a little bit more detail in terms of what was done and who contracted and why this - well, in fac t, it was in answer to the Member for Churchill's question - about 62 miles of road and the Minister said , "W ell, that 62 miles was the road from The Pas to the Saskatchew an border." MR .

ORCHARD: Twenty-five miles. MR . McBRYDE: Twenty-five miles of that. I wonder if the Minister could tell us what was done for $700 and • • • MR . ORCHA RD: I'm advised it was one trip with a small bulldozer . MR . McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us, get from his officials the detail of how this became approv ed .

How did this $700 , this large expenditure , somehow get in the winter roads budget, and what was the mechanism by which this road was able to be done , when other communities have been asking for winte r road assi stance and it doesn't fit within the guidelines, and the structure, and the requirements of the Minister . MR . ORCHARD: I don 't really have the details on how it got app roved , but I do have the details on how it got unapproved - just simply that it didn 1 t meet with any criterion of linking a community to surface transportation, so we didn 't fund it this year . MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , the reason I asked those questions is that I'm not trying to be critical of that particular road being built. In fact , it seems to be necessary in northern Manitoba to , from time to time , meet various situations that arise. And so you have , for example , a situation like Sherridon, where there 's a pro ject under way and there 's a shor tfall of so many dollars ; and we 've had that in the past , Mr. Chairman, on a road to the logging site for Moose Lake Loggers, where the road just needed a certain amount of dollars for repair to be a usable all-weather road.

And so , we were able to find the money to do that . We 've had other examples on the winter road situation where , at the last minute, because of the community 's own effor ts , it appeared that expenditures of a few thousand dollars would, in fa ct , do a lot more than $2 , 000 worth of work. I'm assuming that the $700 did quite a bit, more than $700 worth of work because some body was probably wantin g the road there anyway , and the province gave a little extra assistance to make sure that it went through . Another example, Mr.

Chairman , of the community 's initiative is the bridge that was built in the community of Cormorant. I'm sure the Deputy Minister of Highways , at least , is fami liar with that structure , where the community took the ini tiative and did the work for quite a bit less than any sort of , official Esti mates of any engineer would say that particular work could be done . So , Mr.

Chairman, we have it , in the case of Sherridon, one of those situations that arose this past year , where for a few thousand dollars - that the original Estimate was $10 ,0 00, the fin al cost wa s $1 9,0 00 where a connection could be made. A community that was not former ly serviced by a road , by a winter road , got a winter road for that kind of price. And if you compare that with the price that we 're paying now, the province or the federal and provincial government together and other winter roads, it was a very good price. Fourteen to 20 miles of road for $19 ,0 00.00. MR . ORCHAR D: $180 ,0 00 .00.

MR , McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , but for the extra $19 ,0 00 , the road was able to be comple ted. So, what we have there in a situation - I suppose what I'm - 13 86 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 urging the Minister to do , is to attempt to have some flexibility within his Budget and his guideline in his structures. Now , I know that 's dif ficult and not always possible, and sometimes gets all kinds of questions going , because how do you make a decision, sort of on these kind of things that come up on fairly short notice. But for a limited number of dollars, a very important community service can be done , or something can happen that is very worthwhile and very necessary . Mr.

Chairman, when I'm talking about the Sherridon road, I would like to read into the record and add to what my colleague said , in terms of the Sherridon road and I think one of the problems was the - sort of - the knowledge of how to apply for a Canada Winter Works grant from the federal government was there because people have had that experience before . How to get some emergency funding from the prov ince, a limited amount , the expertise wasn 't there to do that is obvious because of the fact they didn 't get the amount .

If they were so sophisticat ed, they might have been able to talk to the Minister and get that amount. And , Mr. Chairperson, on December 11, 19 79, the Minister was sent a letter from Les Pruden, the Manager of the Meskanau - Project and Meskanau , Mr.

Chairman , just means "road" - and from Joe Zuke , the bookkeeper and co-sponsor of that particular project , and the letter was as follows : "We are a local group of the Sherridon Cold Lake Manitoba Metis Federation Local who are sponsoring a Canada Works project , Meskanau, which involves at present 24 men and women building a winter road linked to our community to Highway No . 10 . "The project began on November 13, 197 8 , and we asked for a postponement on May 25 , 1979 to November 5, 1979 because it was impossible for men in a vehicle to travel through the bush during the summer months .

The D-8 Caterpillar we had con tracted to last winter did not do the good job we had anticip ated , and we need another machine to do a good finishin g job. "O ur community really needs this winter road to be completed now more than ever , as recently the local store went out of business. All the residents must now travel to larger centres such as The Pas or Flin Flon to buy necessities such as food , clothing and fuel . The only other prospects for jobs locally are the CNR , which has only six to eight openin gs at a time , and our trapping , which is a season al occupation.

"What we 're asking of your department in this letter is some indication by the end of December, or very early in the New Year, is whether it is possible for a bulldozer of some kind to finish off the few miles remaining to push a 30-foot wide right-of-way so that the vehicle could transport the workers to the junction of the present ManFor Road which is 14 miles from the community . They will then cut 150- foot wide winter road to our c0111111unity. If your department can help us with a cat it would most certainly bring a successful end to our projec t.

We have estimated the cost of contracting a private owner to make a right-of- way of 30 feet wi de , to cost in the neighbourhood of between $10 ,0 00 and $12 ,0 00 .00. Any unspent funds would be returned to the province upon completion of the work by the project end May 31, 1980 . We anticipate an early reply to this urgent request as time flies and if government bureaucracy can see fit to plow through its red tape on this matter we would find it very helpf ul and very much appreciated . Thank you," and the two gentlemen that I mention ed . Now , I believe , Mr.

Chairman , that the Minister of Highways met with some people - or his Deputy Minister - met with a delegation from Sherridon since that time or perhaps , Mr. Chairman , it was in February that the Minister met with them because I have another letter on my files, Mr. Chairman, which outlines in my mind the urgency of the situation, and this one again is from Joe Zuk, the Vice Chairman of the Sherridon Cold Lake MMF Local. And , Mr. Chairman , I would like again to have the indulgence of the committee to read this into the record as it does give a pretty good outline of the situ ation in that community.

"O ur community of just over 200 residents is completely isolated except for train service three times a week. Airplane service is interrupted during spring and fall breakup as there is no airstrip in our community. "This lack of transportation services has many negative aspects to it: (

a) Higher costs of living due to high CNR freight rates on every commodity . As the local store is recently closed every household must now ship in all our food supplies from outside centres such as The Pas via CNR ." - 1387 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 And , Mr. Chairman , I' 11 depart from the letter there and what 's happened in northern Manitoba with the CNR is that the rates are very high if there 's no other access to the community . As soon as a road goes into the community then the CNR rates go down, Mr. Chairman. So that 's the reality of the situation. So in this case the $1 9, 000 expenditure by the province would have two effe cts: it would provide that acces s; it would also cause a lowering of the CNR rates when that access was available. "(

b) The cost of fuel for heating homes and transportation are greatly increased because these must be shipp ed by tr ain. "(

c) The only ways to transport emergency medical patients are by aircraft or train . When aircraft are grounded due to weather the only alternative is the slower means of the train. In the past that has proven fatal . A small baby died in its mother 's arms awaiting for the train's arrival. Also many babies were born in the community without the benefit of a doctor in attendance.

Incidents such as these seem tragic when a roadlink only miles away would greatly alleviate the hardships incurred by our population in the community ." Mr • Chairman , this is written in longhand but I'm having a little trouble interpreting it. "I solation hinders social contact outside the community in recreation and sports and it means students of high school age must leave home and family to atten d school out of town . Many of these young people do not return to our community because of isolation and the lack of opportunities.

"We feel this roadlink would enhance job opportunities with all the mining exploration going on in the area at present . "In November 1978 , our Manitoba Metis Federation, Sherridon Cold Lake Local were approved a Canada Works grant to construct a winter road link to the end of the present ManFor Road , a distance of 17 . 7 miles. Work crews were only able to cut in cold weather when ground was frozen enabling a vehicle to carry men to the work site . Therefo re , work halted on May of 1979 and again started this last November , 19 79.

"The contractor hired the fir st winter to cut the right-o f-way road allowance did not do the thorough job an ticipated and a second contractor had to be hired this last winter to cut the road allowanc e. This was an unfo reseen expenditure and is now an overexpend iture. This winter road has been constructed according to Department of Highways survey plans and would serve as a basis of an all-weather road in future. This would greatly reduce the capital cost of constructing an all-weather road into our community .

"We urge you to listen to what the delegation meeting with you this week has to say on our behalf . We leave you hoping your deliberations this week with the delegation has a positive outcome for all of us. 11 So , Mr. Chairman, that outlines the community situation at Sherridon and my colleague mentioned the community of Pukatawagon which is further up the CN line and would describe, I think , the situation in that community as we ll, only that community is a little larger. Mr.

Chairperson, so what we have here is the fact that ManFor pushed the forestry access road for ManFor 's own purposes , within 17 . 7 miles of the com munity . So all that 's needed is some work on that 17 .7 miles now to have a com munity connection to the ManFor Road and thereby to Highway No . 10, and access to Flin Flon and The Pas , etc ., Mr. Chairman , and this would provide that kind of access to medical services that they were talking about.

It also does something else; and what has to happen now is that the people of Sherridon telephone up to stores and order their groceries over the telephone and then get them sent in by rail. And , Mr. Chairman , this doesn 't necessarily always work that well because the store has to go to some inconvenience and there 's a problem of how the payments going to be made , etc., etc . So that is an additional serious problem since the store has closed in the community of Sherridon Cold Lake . I was under the imp ression, Mr.

Chairman , that there is a delegation coming into the Minister once again to appeal to him to see if there 's somewhere within his funds , within his department , that this money might be found . I would also suggest , Mr. Chairman, that the Minister might want to talk to some of his colleagues in terms of their unexpended amounts, like Northern Aff ai rs, or other departments that would relate to this area , where the sum of $19 , 000 might be found to assist the community. - 138 8 -

Friday , 21 March, 1980 And , Mr. Chairman , the community did proceed because they didn't really have much choice in the matter , so they had to take an expenditure with quite a risk that they didn 't have the funds coming . But to provide transportation to their people to expend the rest of their Canada Works grant which expired on the fir st, they had to have the right-of- way pushed through by the Cat . And , Mr. Chairman , my understanding is they are using that road , it is serving the community quite well now .

And in fact that particular access road , which is a winter road, mig ht be a fair weather road even when the winter 's over, i.e. it 's on ground that is high enough that they might be able to use it when it 's not raining, etc. , and they might be able to have access all year round . So I would urge the Minister to give consideration , to dig around within his department and others , and see if the community could be assisted to locate those funds and I wonder if the Minister would like to make any comment on that before I jump over to another part of this item. MR . ORCHA RD : Well, Mr.

Chairman , I believe I already indicated the com mitment I will make as Minister to the Member for Churchill that they are going to get a good audience when they come in to see me . And incidenta lly, Mr. Chairman , they did not see me the last time they were in when that

part icular letter - and I would appreciate a copy of the last longhand letter, if you would please? I did not see them at that time . This will be my first meeting with them coming up. MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson , the letter of February 7, 198 0 , the longhand letter is actually addressed to the Honourable Joe Brako, the Deputy Minister of Highways . So , Mr. Chairman , that is who the letter was sent to and I understand they did meet with him . I just wonder if the Minister could conf irm that , that a delegation did meet with his Deputy . MR . ORCHA RD: Yes. MR . McBRYDE: One of the other problems, Mr.

Chairperson , in this type of negotiati on, in the past when the communities were in fac t given some assistance, when they had to have a delegation , when they had to deal and negotiate with government . And this is one of the problems that the Community of Sherridon has at this time is that there is no community council funds or other financial assis tance available for them to do travelling.

And the Minister might want to take a look at that as part of my recommendation to him in terms of negotiat ion , that it might be worthwhile for the province to spend a little bit of money to assist the delegation to come from Pukatawagon or Berens River or Red Sucker Lake in order to assist him with his negotiatio ns. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , with all due respect to the Member for The Pas , I think that would be a request more properly made of the Department of Northern Affair s, rather than Department of Highways .

We would be in a very embarrassing situation of having to provide funds to municipal councils from south central Manitoba to come into the city who undergo expense in getting here as well, if we provided funding for delegations wanting to meet with myse lf or my deputy regard ing projects they have undergoing in their communities. MR . McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman , I think maybe the Minister sort of jumped a little bit too quick there , that 's what I had in mind . In the past it was through the Department of Northern Affairs and through the community council that that kind of ass istance could be given .

So I would urge him to urge his colleagues because it is important to him and his Ministry in this

section we 're discussing now . And it will help in his negotiations with the federal government if the communities are able to come in and meet with federal authorities and put on all the political pressure necessary to get some commitment from the federal authorities through the Indian Brotherhood , etc. , etc . So I just give that additional advice to the Minister . I think that 's all the comments I have on this at this time. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Inkster . - 1389 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 MR . GREEN : Mr. Chairman , with respect to winter roads . I gather that the winter roads have come under the jurisdiction of this department just recently , that they were previously under Northern Aff airs . Now , Mr. Chairman , I believe as a result of litigation that I am involved, that there is a misunderstanding on the part of the Motor Transport Board as to their jurisdiction with respect to winter roads. And it was my impression , and I believe I am right , that a winter road is not a road at all.

There is no road allowanc e, there is no road taken , there is a route on which certain machinery is able to go in the wint ertime , which it cannot travel in the summertime because there is no permafrost to hold it up. And that these routes are into areas which are non-ac cessible except during the winter , and the traditional form of winter road authority was that Mr. Sigfusson of Sigfusson Transportation used to get a land-use permit. It had nothing to do with the road . He was given a permit to go over land in the Province of Manitoba to get from one point to another point .

Now there is some suggestion on the part of the Motor Transport Board that a person needs a PSV certificate because it says under The Highway Traffic Act - and I'm not talking about to get to the winter road , I agree that you ne ed one to get there - but that when you are travelling on a winter road you are not engaged in an activity which requires the authority of the Motor Transport Board. As a matter of fa ct, that is completely contrary to what the intention was when we opened up the winter roads .

It used to be the case that Sigfusson construction - and I'm not making a criticism here - that Sigfusson Construction was on the winter roads and was on them alone because he had a permit and nobody else did and , as a result of get ting that permit , he opened up the roads and carried the freig ht and charged for it and kept people off the roads . It wasn 't the Motor Transport Board that gave him the authority. He kept them off because he was the only one with the winter road permit .

Then he started to ask for a subsidy for his work because the province was com plaining about the fre ight rates, and he said , well, if I had a subsidy for the cost of creating the roads , I could bring them down . Then when he got a subsidy, other people said , well, if provincial money is going into opening these routes, why can 't we go? And that was the development . We then said to Mr. Sigfusson - and I believe there is still litigation on this - we are now going to make the winter roads a total provincial respons ibility, we will pay for opening them up but any body can then go on them.

And we did not intend , Mr. Chairman , that there be any monopoly rights , any licence rights with regard to winter roads , and they are not roads. I have heard it suggested by lawyers there , and by the board itself, that they have a jurisdiction over winter roads and the way in which they have let everybody go is that they have excepted it from their jurisdiction. Now, Mr.

Chairman , I believe that , as a matter of policy , you should make it known and if it has to require a regulation or if it requires government approv al , or legislation , that the Motor Transport Board has no authority whatsoever to restrict a carrier from going on winter roads . They may restrict people getting to the winter roads because I guess they would have that authority, but they shouldn 't restrict anybody who is only going to a winter road. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister . MR .

ORCHA RD: Well, I don't think any comment I can make will reinforce or detract from the argument that the honourable member make s. The only comment I might have is that , in terms of all the winter roads , the RCMP do have juris diction over them even though they are not numbered or part of the PR system. Now , I don't in any way attach that to the argument that the Member for Inkster is putting forward about franchising people to use the winter roads . But we do have highway traffic regulations applying on winter roads to assure that the trucking industry acts responsibly on them . MR . GREEN : Yes, but, Mr.

Chairman , when you say that you have highway traffic regulations, are you suggesting that you could prosecute somebody for being on a highwy , when he is on a winter road? MR . ORCHARD: If he is speeding . - 1390 -

Friday, 21 March, 1980 MR. GREEN : Well, Mr. Chairman , I will wait to see such a prosecution , be cause I do not believe that these fall within the def inition of highways. They are not highways. As I say , they are land use ••• It 's like driving on your own property and speeding. If I have a land use permit to go on a certain area and I go on that area , what traffic regulations apply to that area? And therefore , when that is said , I doubt very much whether that is correct. And I wonder if you are aware of any successful prosecutions of this nature. MR. ORCHA RD: There is not. Your course may well be right.

MR. GREEN : Yes. I am suggesting that the very reason that these were never in the Highways Branch indicates that they are not highways. They are in no way highways. You do not get a road allowance for them. You do not have any designated place on the map where the highway goes ; it just goes. They clear a path and they go. Some day the path might move over 200 yards if they find a better place. And therefore I think that it should be clearly impressed that winter roads are areas which were opened up for general fre ighting. And , Mr.

Chairman, there 's another feature and I guess I'll wait until we get to the Motor Transport Board to deal with it. But I first want to make it ••• I got the Minister 's affirmation that the development of winter roads as I described it is correct. And I question , and I think that the Deputy Minister should maybe refer it to the Legal Branch to see whether he thinks that the Highway Traffic regulations apply to winter roads , because I do not believe that they are roads or highways. The word "road" is a descriptive phrase.

They are paths which people have cleared out, which used to be done on a person 's own property. When I say "own" property , it doesn 't mean he owns it but he had the right to use it. That 's all he did. It was a land use permit , which opened up the winter roads. MR. CHAI RMAN : The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM : Thank you, Mr. Chairma n. This morning has been a very good exercise.

A lot of information has come out in regard to winter roads and I think the members from the north , the Member for The Pas and the Member for Churchill, have brought out some points that really are worthwhile and I know that the Minister will take cognizance of those comments that were made. While the winter road mileage has not been decreased by that much , I am just wondering whether it has been a good policy to transfer the Transportation Services over from an amalgamation with the Department of Highways.

The reason I say this is because any savings that were made or derived because of that amalgamation have not translated itself into more roads for the north. And I am just wondering whether or not , as it was prior to the amalgamation , where you have people who are dealing primarily and exclusively with northern problems and they are more oriented to the north. And so I think that the morning has been a very very usef ul exercise.

I would really impress upon the Minister to keep pressing the federal govern ment for more cost-sharing, to vigorously proceed for that because when you look at the amounts of money that the federal government is putting into transportation in other areas, for instance, in 197 8, there was $300 million for air trans portation in subsidies; and ferry services , $150 million ; for rail passenger services , VIA Rail, $277 million ; and $177 million for capital costs for rail passenger services, plus hundreds of millions of dollars for marine , weather , and mete orological services and so on , and cos t-sharing with cities and urban areas for transportation.

And when you think of the benefits that southerners have available to them in the form of lower cost , we see how important the northern road system is. Theref ore , I want to impress upon the Minister , if the federal government has that kind of money available, that we should be able to tap into some of those funds. I want to just ask about one road that I don't believe that the Member for Churchill or The Pas mentioned , and that is the road from Berens River to Poplar River. The Member for Rupertsland is tied up in the other committee and no ment ion was made of that particular road.

I think it 's about 40 miles. And I am - 1391 -

Friday , 21 March, 1980 just wondering whether or not the community there or the Band Council has peti tioned or requested assi stance there for a winter road and they didn 't have a road this year but whether or not maybe next year that they may have a road. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, Mr. Chairman , the Poplar River and Red Sucker Lake Bands both requested roads via Me-Ke-Si this winter and , as I explained , the same thing happened to Poplar River only less than what ended up happening with Red Sucker Lake .

The federal government , it wasn 't written in the original contract for Me-Ke-Si roads and they wouldn't entertain cost -sharing of it . MR . ADAM : Is there any plans then that it may be in a program for next year for • MR. ORCHARD: Not at this present time . Until we get our numbers put to gether wi th the federal government this summer , I have no idea whether we can in clude it . MR . CHAIRM AN : 8. (b)- -pass - the Member for The Pas . MR . McBRYDE : Mr. Chairperson, I want to just add a note in terms of the hist ory lesson of the Member for Inkster .

The winter roads initially were winter cat -train trails and not roads at all and they were , in a large

part in the north ern area , developed by a fellow by the name of Hyde Johnson and another one by the name of Lindal; Johnson from The Pas and Lindal from the Interlake area . And then Sigfusson came along and started into moving truck transportation as well as cat train-transportation . Mr. Chairperson , I wan ted to also ask the Minister what his intentions are when the Me-Ke-Si contract runs out.

The Me-Ke-Si in the past was the only instrument or construction firm being basically a native firm that was controlled by the chief s of the area served by the winter roads, that the federal government would cost- share in . Now , Mr.

Chairperson , that makes it a little bit tougher for negotiations , be cause if you can 't reach an agreement with Me-Ke-Si , then you don 't get the 50 -50 cost -sharing , so that means that Me-Ke-Si can get a little bit more out of you in terms of the price that they are going to charge you for building a road than you can with other contractors, when you can just switch contractors. So I want to know what the Minister 's thinking is and what his intentions are in terms of next year when the Me-Ke-Si agreement runs out. MR . ORCHARD : First of all, Mr.

Chairman, I want to make sure that we continue with federal participation on those winter roads . As is obvious from the increase in the appropriati on, we antic ipate that 's going to happen because we hav en't added in a loss of federal revenues. How we do that and how Me-Ke-Si fits in is going to be all part of the negotiations this su mmer . They have been a successf ul contractor ; they have done reasonably good work and I don 't have any reason to believe why they won 't be continuing to do that . But we have to make sure, on behalf of the provincial taxpayer , that we do get federal cost-sharing on that .

And if they are going to be an instrumental part of assuring that , then that will happen. MR . CHAIR MAN : The Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The Member for Inkster came in and started talking about the legalities of the road or under whose juris diction the roads are and whether or not they are roads in fa ct .

And it reminded me of a question I had not anticipated asking during these considerations of the Estimate s, but it seems timely now, in regards to Autopac , on coverage , on roads, on vehicles travelling on winter roads , can the Minister clarif y whether or not that coverage extends throughout the period that the winter road is in place or whether or not that coverage extends only during the period during which the winte r road is officially opened?

In other words, the winter roads are closed today , I believe , or at least the announcement was that today would be the last day , a person travelling on that winter road , now , would that person be covered by Autopac? - 1392 -

Friday, 21 March , 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: I have no idea whether the insurance carries on after the closing date of the road or not . MR. COWAN : I'd ask the Minister to find out then, because it is a subject that has been brought to my attention by constituents. We had an incident earlier this year where a person travelling on the winter road went through the ice bef ore the winter road was open, and had indicated to me that he was experiencing some dif ficulty in obtaining coverage for the damage that was done to his vehicle.

Now fortunately that vehicle did not completely go through the ice and was pulled out and didn't suffer extensive damage , but it did suffer enough damage that one would have hoped Autopac would have covered that for him. So I would appreciate if the Minister could perhaps make some inquiries over the lunch break, and we can just deal with that very briefly when we come back at 2:3 0. MR . CHAIRM AN : The hour of 12 :30 having arrived, I'm leaving the Chair to return at 2:3 0. Committee rise . SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR . CHAIRM AN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson ): This committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 75 of the Main Estimates, Department of Natural Resources , Resolution 100 , Item 1. Executive Administration (

a) Ministerial : Item

(1) Minister 's Compensa tion. The Honourable Minister . MR . RANSOM: Mr. Chairman , may I say at the outset that I look forward to what I trust will be a constructive and posit ive review of the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources under your Chairmanship, and I certainly would pledge to make every effort , that I will supply as much informa tion as I can to the honourable members opposite and that I will not unduly make your task as Chairman more difficul t. I think that I would like to begin by MR .

CHAIRM AN: Could I ask the honourable members for a little bit of attention and quiet , and we will allow the Honourable Minister to continue. The Honourable Minister. MR . RANSOM: The first item that I would like to deal briefly with , Mr.

Chairman, is that of the reorganization of the department , and as the members are aware of course , last November the structure of the previous Department of Mines , Natural Resources and Environment was altered so that Mines went into a new Department of Energy and Mines and that Environment went into the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment , leaving the Natural Resources com ponent as it existed previously within this department .

But we had only a year earlier made some changes that brought the Parks Branch , Parks operation, into the department and the integration of that unit into the Department of Natural Resources was still under way last November and that continues to be the case. We have been, over the past year , doing some reorganization within the depart ment as well and I have some copi es, Mr. Chairman, of the organization al chart as it will appear in the manual of administration, along with some very brief notes that also will appear in the manual of administration.

I have six copies of that and I would be happy to make those available to the members oppos ite . Just briefly , the intention of the reorganization that we have undertaken has been to accomplish a number of things , in general. One is that we have been seek ing to get greater accountability within the department through the branch structure that we have established . We have attempted to eliminate some redundancies that existed within the department because of similar services being delivered in more than one place within the dep

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-22a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 22a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9344ccf2e13ac78b63dc4a4a350e6a9678c7ddf6

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