Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 25 (27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, March 22nd, 1963. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. MR • . JAMES COW AN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Associates Mortgage Credit Limited, praying for the passing of

An Act respecting Associates Mortgage Credit Limited. MADAM SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions. MR. CLERK: The petition of Thomas Newman McLenaghen and Others, praying for the passing of

An Act to incorporate Pine Falls General Hospital. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. Notices of Motion. Introduction of Bills. The Honourable the Minister of Health. HON. GEO. JOHNSON (Minister of Health) (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 54,

An Act to amend The Hospitals Act. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry) introduced Bill No. 57,

An Act to amend The

Interpretation Act. MR. LYON introduced Bill No. 56,

An Act to amend The Devolution of Estates Act. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville) introduced Bill No. 3,

An Act to amend The Land Drainage Arrangement Act. MR. HUTTON introduced Bill No. 47,

An Act to amend The Watershed Conservation Dis tricts Act. HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne) introduced Bill No. 64,

An Act to amend The Public Buildings Act. MR. BAIZLEY introduced Bill No. 63,

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye) introduced Bill No. 62,

An Act respecting the Rural Municipality of Ste. Anne. MR. MARK G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows) introduced Bill No. 26,

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate The Greater Winnipeg Society for Christian Education. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Flin Flan): Madam Speaker, I wish to lay on the table the Return to an Order of the House on the motion of the Honourable Member for St. John's. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I wish to lay on the table of the House the Proceedings of the 44th Annual Meeting of the Conference of Commissioners on Uniformity of Legislation in Canada. This report was received only today, and it is tabled immediately on its receipt. MR.

HUTTON: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to relate the findings of the second meeting in the Flood Forecasting Committee for 1963. The Flood Fore casting Committee held its second meeting of the year on March 22nd, 1963. The Committee met to review the situation concerning flood prospects on the Red and Assiniboine Rivers. The Committee's conclusions are that there will be no flooding along the Red and Assiniboine Rivers in Manitoba this spring. The river stages in Winnipeg will be at least five feet below the 18- foot level ordinarily considered to be the first flood stage.

On the As�iniboine River, spring peak flows will be confined to the channel along most of its course and well below the tops of the dikes at Brandon and east of Portage la Prairie. The situation on both the Red River and the Assiniboine River will be under constant surveillance by the Committee up to and through the break-up on these rivers, and should unusual conditions develop causing a marked change in the above forecast, further reports will be issued. The following information is available to the Committee for its appraisal of the situation.

The results of the snow survey made by the Water Control and Conservation Branch during the period March 11th to 15th in the basins of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers in Saskatchewan an Manitoba. A soil moisture survey made by the same Branch at freeze-up last fall. Records of fall and winter flow in both streams is recorded by the Federal Water Resources Branch and meteorological information on fall and winter precipitation obtained by the Meteorological March 22nd, 1963 Page 545

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) •••.. Service of Canada stations in the watersheds of these rivers in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour, and I'm sorry that I didn 't see him before we sat, but I don't think this will be very hard for him to answer. Could he tell us when he will table the report of the annual survey of wages for 1962 ? MR. BA IZLEY: Madam Speaker, I'd be pleased to accommodate the honourable member within the next day or two. MR. JOHNSON: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, in accordance with

Section 14 of The Alcoholism Foundation Act, I'd like to table the duly audited financial state ment of the affairs of the Foundation for the fiscal year ending March 31, '62, and a copy of the Annual Report of the Foundation passed by the Board on May 30, 1962. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Before the Orders of the Day, Madam Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources. Could he tell us when we may expect a report of the Firearms Safety Committee? That was set up and held hearings in the month of January or February. MR.

WITNEY: Madam Speaker, I'm sorry I couldn't tell you that at this moment. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders for Returns. On Tuesday last, the Orders of the Day being read for an Order for a Return, the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party stated that he believed the following motion was before the House: That an Order of the House do is sue for a return showing: The fees, licenses, and royalties charged by each Department, Bureau or other activity of the Crown as at: (

a) January 1st, 1945; (

b) June 1st, 1958; (

c) January 1st, 1963 . The Honourable the First Minister also agreed that the above motion was formally pre sented. He also added that almost all of the information required is already available, either in the Statutes or in the Manitoba Gazette, and had come to the conc lusion he would accept the Order with respect to those matters which are not available in some published documents to which the Leader of the New Democratic Party has access.

The First Minister also stated: "1 would be glad to accept the Order for any of this information that is not available in public documents ," and quoted Beauchesne: "It is not in order to seek information set forth in docu ments equally acces sible to the questioner as to Statutes, Published Reports, etcetera"; and stated he would be glad to answer the question insofar as it does not contravene that rule .

The Leader of the New Democratic Party, after explaining his views on the equality of the opportunity of the availability of documents, stated that he agreed with the First Minister insofar as Beauchesne is concerned, but insofar that there is no equality then he rejected it completely. I find that the First Minister is within his parliamentary rights when he states that an Order for Return dealing with documents• accessibility to the Leader of the New Democratic Party, is not within the proper limit of the question.

Beauchesne 's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 4th Edition, Citation 171, sub-paragraph (ff), Page 148 , states that a question must not seek information set forth in documents equally accessi ble to questioner, as to Statutes, Published Reports, etceters. Sir. T. Erskine May's Parliamentary Book, 16th Edition, Pages 358 and 360, states that the following type of question has been ruled out of order (23) requiring information set forth in accessi ble documents (such as Statutes, Treaties, etcetera). The words "e qually accessi ble" used by Beauchesne I think should be interpreted to mean "also accessible".

Sir Erskine May uses the word "accessi ble" only in dealing with matters of documents available to questioner. In my opinion equality of facilities for searching informa tion is not a matter recognized by parliamentary authorities in any assembly or parliament un der the British system.

In the light of the statements made in the House on this matter by the ho11,ourable members and also in the light of the parliamentary authorities which clearly set out a question must not seek the information set out in accessi ble documents to the questioner, I must rule that the House is now in possessi on of the Order for Return in its original form and consider same out of order. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radis son): Madam Speaker, it's my understanding that your ruling is not debatable.

I question the advisability of the method by which you reach your conclusions, and if I may have your permission I would point out that a similar Order for Return has been accepted by Mr. Speaker in other jurisdic tions Page 546 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) .• .•• in the Dominion of Canada without question, and I would respect fully ask, if it is at all possible at this time, for reconsideration of your decision. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): I understand that my -- I would just make a comment on this, though I'm sure I'm out of order in doing so -- if I may have the indulgance of the House. I appreciate my honourable friend's view on the matter but I really don't think that he can make the request for a reconsideration. The ruling has been given. However, I just make that observation; I don't want to get into an argument about it.

MR. PAULLEY: May I suggest, Madam Speaker, that I believe that it is within my juris diction to ask for a reconsideration of your decision, because this is the first time that we've had it, and I would like this to be done. However, Madam Speaker, if such is not the case, and you say it is not the case, then I must follow with an action following this. MR. D. L.

CA:MPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, I realize that the question of whether you are inclined to give reconsideration and also the question of whether you permit any -- not debate, but observations at this time, is entirely within your own jurisdiction, but I would respectfully ask Your Honour, if in arriving at your conclusions, if you gave considera tion to the fact that the rule that you have read is dealing, as I read Beauchesne, with questions rather than with Orders for Returns.

Now, I think the distinction is one that really makes a difference, and in accordance with that view of the matter I would point out that

Chapter 5, Page 145 --

Chapter 5 has the heading "Questions", then it has sub-headings "Questions put to Minis ters", "Oral Answers", "Starred Questions", •iPrinted Answers", "Question to Stand as Notice", and "Question Made an Order for Return". I would suggest that because there's the differentia tion made there, and the provision made for a question being on your own decision or on the re quest of the Minister, changed to an Order for Return, that there is a distinct difference between a question and an Order for Return, and the rule that you have read, in my opinion, deals with questions rather than an Order for Return.

However, my only reason for speaking at all at this moment -- and I appreciate the consideration that you give in allowing us to do so -- is that I think it's very important that we do get as full consideration of these matters as possible, and if it were within your own -- if it agreed with your own ideas on this subject, I would think the suggestion of the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party might give you the oppor tunity to further consider this matter. On the other hand, it may be that you've already done so. That's my only point in speaking. MR.

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I really think that a new point of order perhaps has been raised here, and if that's so, I may be permitted a word on it. In my own view, I think there is no distinction of the kind raised by the Honourable Member for Lakeside.

However, I cer tainly am the first to admit there's room for a. difference of opinion on the matter at first glance, and if it were the fact that this does raise a new point of order which was not envisioned in tbe first instance, it certainly might be appropriate to consider that particular point and rule on it, because I do appreciate, this is a matter of some importance, and we do wish, I'm sure, to have it settled after meeting all reasonable points that are put forward by members of the Chamber, and as I say, while 1 do think that there is no difference in the two forms of obtaining information in respect of this rule, I nevertheless am willing to admit that it is a point that might require to be looked into, and if it is a new point as far as the Speaker is concerned, it certainly changes my view as to whether or not it should be looked at a little further.

MADAM SPEAKER: I think that under the situation, and in light of what has been men tioned here, and in trying to get a ruling which would be acceptable to all, and at the same time to further proceedings here, I will give this further consideration and I will give my decision on this point of order at a later date. MR. PAULLEY: .•. ••. Madam Speaker, and may I respectfully suggest that you might contact Mr. Speaker in the Province of Saskatchewan who permitted a similar question to be put to the House. MR.

CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, I know that this doesn't permit of any debate, but I would wish to join with my honourable friend, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, in say ing thank you for your observing the request to have reconsideration, because I think this is all to the good in the Chamber, but I would also --that's where my agreement with my honourable friend would end because I would suggest that we have a Speaker here who is just as capable as the one in Saskatchewan. March 22nd, 1963 Page 547

MADAM SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolutlon of the Honourable Mem ber for Inkster and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Pembina in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . PETERS: Madam Speaker, when my colleague, the Honourable Member for Inkster, introduced this resolution for the 23rd tlme, it was almost the 23rd time that it ha.s been amen ded.

The only time that it was not amended was in the first session that I sat in, in 1958, and at that time the resolution that he introduced in substance is very much the same as what the amendment to the honourable member's resolution is today.

On the 4th of November, a vote was taken on that resolution introduced by my colleague, and I would like to read the resolution that was voted on at that time and supported by everyone, and nobody voted against it, and the resolution reads, Madam Speaker: "Resolved that in the opinion of this House the government should give consideration to the advisability of supplementing the income of old age and blind pensioners and persons in receipt of old age assistance, whose total incomes are not in excess of $55.00 a month, and be it further resolved that in the opinion of this House the government should give consideratlon to the advisability of providing medical, surgical, dental, optical care for all old age pensioners in need of such assistance, and further

be it resolved that in the opinion of this House the government should give consideration to the advisability of making provision for increased aid for housing projects for old age pensioners and establishment of provincial nursing homes for the aged." Madam Speaker, my colleague brought in that resolution in 1958. Here we are today in 1963, my colleague bringing in a resolutlon that the basic old age pension should be increased to $75. 00 a month, and the government members putting the hatchet to it again voting for the same thing that they voted for in 1958, and they call themselves a progressive governtre nt.

I don't think they're too progressive because it's not on a needs test that they're helping the old age pensioners --it's on a means test; and that is the diff erence; because if the Minister of Welfare would like to have a discussion with me, I can take him to see some people and show him where it is on a means test that they're doing this and not on a needs test, because if you look at the cost of living index, Madam Speaker, almost every item --and this doesn't go back to '58, it only goes back to '59 --all items have increased quite a bit.

Food, housing, shelter, household operation, clothing, medical --I don't want to read them all out, Madam Speaker, because the members know that without me reading it out to them, and I don't think it becomes this government to call themselves a progressive government, and saying that they're doing everything that they can, because they're not, because if you remember, the last time that the Federal Government. gave an increase of $10.00 a month, this government robbed the ones who were on social allowances of that $10.00 a month. Oh yes they did, and if Mr.

Diefenbaker turns around and all of a sudden gives another $10.00 a month, what will this government do? Take another $10.00 off the social allowances? They probably will. It's terrible. You ought to know. So, Madam Speaker, I don't think I want to take up much more time of the House on this resolution. I could say more. There's only one thing that I would like to bring in before I do sit down, is the thinking that went on in 1926 when the first old age pensions were being debated in the House of Commons, and some of the comments that were made at that time by some of the senators.

Senator Roberts: "This thing was conceived in dishonesty." That's what they thought in 1926 and '27. They brought it in, sure. I'll tell you how they brought it in, because there were two members of Parliament, Mr. Woodsworth and Mr. Heaps who held the balance of power and they squeezed the Liberals. We can give you an answer every time. - (Interjection) --Who, the Liberals? I agree with you. Madam Speaker, I would like to put into the record some of the things that came out of this debate in 1926.

Senator McCormick speaking said, "The men who promoted the bill do not represent a body of people in this country who are prepared to contribute to it. They are re presentative of a body of so -called"labou:r" who do not want to encourage the Fascist threat. They are men who work to burn the candle at both ends and spend all you make; when you are 65 or 70 and unable to work, go to those people who have been leading well orderly lives, who have been practicing the good old habit of thrift." That was the Liberals in 1926 --they haven't changed much, Madam Speaker. --(Interjection) --Where's that?

Which year do you want to go back to? A MEMBER: Go back to 1896. Page 548 March 22nd, 1963

MR. PETERS: Oh well, we'll get back to you -- that was about the time you were born. Madam Speaker, I don't think I need to read any more of these things. I'll let the Honourable Member from Gladstone do the reading -- he's the reading member in this House. But I do want to say this once again, Madam Speaker, that I don't believe that this government is doing what it is supposed to be doing with their Social Allowances Act. MR.

JOHNSON: I couldn't sit here and allow the Member from Elmwood to make the statement that the Province of Manitoba is robbing recipients of social allowance, and of course I can understand him going back into pre-historic times, but in modern times, in modern social concepts he fails to ..•. you know they always point to Sasktachewan except when it doesn't suit the cloth, and today, of course, Saskatchewan is following the lead of Manitoba with The Social Allowances Act in that province being administered on a similar basis to our own.

I need only remind him that the stand and attitude of this administration has been from the beginning that in the administration of welfare funds -- and these funds have risen from five to sixteen million dollars in the past five years, and I know the Member from Lakeside says that the Ministers on this side of the House wander around the Province of Manitoba talking sums of money. I've never talked sums of money without talking of what it meant to the folks.

Just to give them an idea of the kind of expenditures this province is getting into, and the provinces across Canada, we have made the boldest steps and the longest steps, not the short baby steps referred to by the Member from St. John's -- those toddling steps he talked about that this government is making. These are strides -- strides in the right direction, because these people who are getting help are getting the kind of help they need, and we help more people this way because we refuted the argument that an extra five or ten dollars across the board really met need.

That was the philosophy of my honourable friends in the province to the west on the day in which we took office -- that on the basis of the means test you got an extra, a cer tain amount of cash. This showed that it didn't meet need, and I need only remind them of this fact, but I think I have the right.to keep reminding them of this fact when they accuse our ad ministration of robbing the recipients of social allowance. On the basis of need this Act has gone further in developing and meeting the true needs of the people in this age group of any other province in the Dominion.

In the past year more hous ing was created than any other province in Canada under The Elderly Persons Housing Act. Why? Because the extra five or ten dollars across the board doesn't necessarily meet need. and who knows, a landlord or an institution the old gentleman's in can raise the rent and obviate this. Not that they do -- most of these people are pretty good -- but this is what happens.

But on an individual basis, by going and looking at the patient, by determining is this a financial problem or a health problem, that's what the workers ask themselves in this province, and these workers came from Saskatchewan to work for us because they thought this policy made sense, and when they measure the need they may find this gentleman can qualify for a housing project that's coming up in the community; that his health and his other needs can be met; that a suitable boarding arrangement can be made where he's much happier than vegetating on the third floor of an institution somewhere where he may be out of sight and out of mind.

These are the kind of things we went at; we didn't go at this with a heartless business of "Can they make it?" We went out to give the help and, by jiminy, we cut the mustard. MR. PETERS: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health could tell me what housing they have provided for the elderly? Private enterprise has, but the government hasn't MR. SMERCHANSKI: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber of La Verendrye, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for lnkster. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Madam Speaker, I think perhaps this is a very fit ting moment to introduce the remarks that I have to offer when I say that there was an eminent philosopher who said that the man who makes two blades of grass grow where formerly there was one found, has lived a worthwhile life.

Of course, he was thinking of the enriching and improving the beauty and fertility of the earth and the increasing of its productivity, but I think that that would make a good text for a sermon by the Minister of Agriculture or Conservation in this province, in fact I think it would make a good text for each of the Ministers upon the March 22nd, 1963 Page 549

(Mr. Martin, cont'd) ••••. presenting of his Estimates and a very fine sermon would follow. It applies to every department of life but it applies with particular emphasis in the area of human resources, and whoever there is that seeks to serve the public good by enriching the sum total of human happiness and well-being and contentment, is deserving of the highest commendation and praise.

We live in a province where we have not neglected to put first things first, and we have given in our standard of values a pre-eminent place of importance to those things which mean the enrichment and the betterment of human life. So, Madam Speaker, it isn't a surprising thing that we have resolutions such as this which is before us now and presented by the Honour able Member for Jnkster.

May I just take this moment to congratulate the honourable member for year in and year out making a persistent and untiring and eloquent plea for those who are aged and handicapped and in need; but I would like to point out, Madam Speaker, that my honourable friend, in the

preamble to his resolution, starts out with a misstatement. He says that

whereas it is necessary for the blind and deaf to leave the province in order to attend school. The report of the Minister of Education reveals that there are 52 quoted then -- but since that time it has gone up to the figure of 60 -- 52 children who are enrolled in the Manitoba School for the Deaf situated on Wellington Avenue. My honourable friend takes us back to the days when there was a school for the deaf in Tuxedo.

At that time -- and by the way, there was never a school for the blind; it was only a school for the deaf -- at that time this school was taking care of the deaf children of three pro vinces: Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba. Then came the days of the war and the building was taken over by the military authorities and, following that, the Alberta government decided that they would send their deaf children to Montreal. After a short time they determined to build their own school and they did it at a cost of $3 million, and the Province of Saskatchewan like wise decided that they would build their school.

Manitoba at that time built a school -- a day school for the deaf -- and I would like to point out that this day school was the very thing that the people of Winnipeg wanted -- a school for the deaf with the children at home. The school opened with a population of about 20 and now, as I say, it has tripled itself to a population of 60 and we thoroughly believe that by the fall it will reach 70. I wonder if my honourable friend has visited the school on Wellington Avenue. In fact, I think it would be the very thing if all the members of the Legislature would put that in their plans.

It's indeed, I think, a house of miracles. You see little children there, because they enroll them at six years of age. When I say this I consider that perhaps deafness is the great est of all handicaps. These children come into the school, many of them, with no mea:ns of communication with one another. They don't know their own names. They put their name on a book -- the teachers -- or on the locker, on a desk. The name is Johnny; and everything re lated to that boy is Johnny, and the time comes when he realizes "I'm Johnny" as far as that goes. He is not able to identify any single object by name.

There wili be a box with a toy train, or a doll for the girls, books and boxes. It doesn't mean a solitary thing to him because he's had no touch with the outside world and no means of contact. Now that's the beginning, and here the school has to set out to rectify that situation. In the Manitoba School for the Deaf they have a staff of nine -- eight teachers and the principal who also does some work in teach ing. She was, I'd like to point out, formerly at the School for the Deaf at Tuxedo. And so the education begins. They're taught first of all to make sounds.

We who have the power of speech don't realize just what it means not to be able to speak. To see those teachers looking into the faces of those little mites and saying "b-b-b-b-b-b" trying to get the word "b", and then after wards they relate this sound to articles and you'll find children as they advance are able, when the teacher points to a box, they're able to say "box".

Then as progress advances they're able to answer in sentence form, and when the teachers points to the box the child is able to say slowly and with diff iculty, "This is a box." She says to the little fellow, "Your teacher is sick today. ·Where is your teacher today?" "My teacher is sick." I saw one little fellow there, he was perhaps in his second or his third year now, counting up to fifteen. My, it was a tortuous test. It was climbed every rung of the way, but I stood there and watched him go right up to fifteen.

Then later they are able to transfer these sounds --which they've transferred them into letters which they utter -- transfer them into writing, and there's a blackboard before them and the youngster is asked to go up. He says "box" and P;tge 550 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Martin, cont'd} . • • • • she points for him to go up, and he takes the chalk and he writes b-o-x. One little fellow got a little confused the other day, and so another boy stepped right up and wrote b-o-x and pointed to this boy and said, "There you are, that's what you should have done." And there are other sentences: "Where do you live?" and here's a little fellow gets up and he writes "I live 401 Provencher." There's the type of work; that's the diff iculty of the work. The Manitoba School for Crippled Children provides transportation for about 55 percent of the children that attend.

Two or three who are within walking distance walk; the rest go by bus and the Department of Education of the government provides the free tickets. The curri culum that they follow there is the curriculum of the public school. You see them also engaged in drawing little pictures. They're able to pick up signs now, and copy the bird or the flower or whatever it may be. Then there's the vocational work carried on.

There's a typing class there, in the larger field of vocational work, and this is where they have difficulty, because it's a small school, but they have a very happy arrangement with the Sargent Park School for ·Boys and the Ellen Douglas School for Girls. But in their own work there, here is a multiple handicap. It was rather pathetic to see that little fellow there at his typewriter, but when you picked up the job he'd done, no one in any business house could find any fault with it. Now we have talked about 60 out of 106 deaf children of the Province. How about the re mainder?

The remainder go to Saskatoon, and the government provides transportation and the cost of tuition and board. There are about half a. dozen, I should say though, that make their own arrangements, go to perhaps a school in the States or go to Montreal, and the government also provides aid for these on the same basis that they provide help and assistance for the children that are going to Saskatoon.

Now my honourable friend pleads for the re-opening of the school, and when he says re-opening he's naturally thinking of the school in Tuxedo, and he expresses keen regret, and I think heartfelt regret, that these children who go to Saskatoon have to be separated from their homes. They're away, as he puts it, from the comfort and the embrace and the love of their parents, but he overlooks one fact, and that is the tremendous advantages of the residential school. He speaks of the advantages of being closer to their homes and to their parents, but I set over against that the advantages of the residential school.

For the whole of their school-years life, these children in the residential school at Saskatoon are living in an atmosphere of specialized training, not four or five hours for five days of the week, then a hop-off home and away from this environment which will mean so much to them in pre paring them for the years and after life. Now what do they teach there? This is interesting. Saskatoon, they follow the public school curriculum. They go to Grade 8 and beyond to the high school, and beyond to college entrance, and beyond to decreed controlling college in Wash ington.

That's a tremendous achievement when you think of the beginnings of these children. Then the vocational work in Saskatoon to which we send these children at our cost. They have special shops in woodworking and metalworking, home economics, hair dressing and barbering, business and office training and • • . . . . . • . • • their attitudes towards machines and materials and sound attitudes towards the discipline of shop practices and safety measures. They are trained in working with others and thus learning the value of joint responsibility and teamwork. How about their health?

Well they have their own medical and dental arrangements. They have a full-time hospital with a full-time staff, with the result that the health at that school at Sas katoon is equal to anything on the continent. I presume you must have felt, as I made these remarks, that it must be carried on at a terrific cost. It is a terrific cost, but to such a school, I say, a large percentage of our deaf children go. Of course the parents miss them. My honourable friend speaks of the mother crying day after day, "What is my little child doing in Saskatoon?"- or in the United States?

Well, if she's crying day by day, Madam Speaker, what she is doing is shedding tears of un restrained joy because of the opportunity that has come to "my little child". And what is lie doing? Well, I think the proper

interpretation of that would be that the mother is wondering with eager expectation how this child is progressing in his new environment, an environment which is going to take the tragedy of which my friend talks, a lot of the tragedy out of this handi cap, and remove the inferiority complex which never, never could have been removed had he remained at home. The children aren't shedding any tears of regret. They're not grieving. You see. this school is their world. In it they live and move and have their being, and they March 22nd, 1963 Page 551

(Mr. Martin, cont'd) ••••. . tell me that even if they go home on a short holiday or a weekend they become so impatient to leave again and get back to the school that they haven't time to say "Good-bye Mommy". Now, the extra-curricular activitie s. Gui des, scouts, explorers and so forth, organized games, cultural pursuits, simi lar to other schools. For instanc e, the school in Belleville, which I know very well.

It's a fine thing to me to be there and watch those boys am girls in Belleville, after the day's work and after dinn er, to go into the main hall and enjoy their minuet dances, able to do that because the sound from the pia no, the vibrations reach them. ' I know perhaps better, the School for the Blind at Brantford, because that was in my constituency when I was in Ontario. We send 18 blind children -- there's never been any other school; we've always sent them to Brantford and they go there on the same basis as the children that go to Saskatchewan.

Tuition and maintenance and so forth and the Brantford school sends an escort to the west to pick up the children, take them to the school and at the end of the school year to bring them back again . What do they do in their extra-curricular studies? Sports and plays, and I want 'to say this afternoon that I've seen them put on Shakes pearian plays that would do credit to the Manitoba Theatre Centre, and I don't make any com promise in that statement. They go from that school to occupy places of distinction in the professi onal business life of Canada. I met a man the other day at a meetin g.

He said, "You know, I'm a graduate from the Ontario School for the Blin d." And a graduate from Oxford or Cambridge or Yale or Harvard or Mani toba couldn't be more unabashed and unrestrained in the pride that he was a graduate of the Ontario School for the Blind . And this is the school to which we send our childre n. Now, Madam Speaker, there's a problem. There always is, when we come to these matters that concern governments.

The Saskatoon School is crowded, and they issued in structions a while ago that they wanted some of the Manitoba boys to be transferred to the Winnipeg school, but keep in mind , only those that came from Greater Winni peg. They weren't going to touch those that came from remote parts because they would have to be away and they were still arranging for them to go to Saskatoon. Now the Winnipeg school is crowded, tripled in population within a few years. Now I know in reading the report of the Minis ter that this is receiving the very earnest consideration of the department .

It must have careful and exhaus tive and intensive study. 106 deaf children in Manitoba -- at the rate we're growing in our population it won't be long before we'll have 150 or 200, and we'll have 100 deaf children within Metro Winni peg, so the great word has to be -- and this as elsewhere, is expansion. They've no gymnasium here because they have to use it for classrooms. They have no dining room set apart because they have to use it for classrooms, so there have to be additional classrooms. I'm not apologizing here.

Every Mini ster who gets up and talks about his de partment is assuring us that there is need for growth, and the need for expansion. That's the keynote everywhere, and in every branch of the Department of Education, and it's the keynote in relationship to our care for the handic apped chi ldren.

The Mini ster of Education said the other day much has been done, in speaking of his department generally; much remains to be done; but I want to assure the House this afternoon that we've come a tremendous distance in our care for these afflicted and unfortunate child ren, and I haven't a solitary mis giving as to the future of these children under the direction of the Department of Education of this provin ce. I know that they will not be neglected, much less forgotten. Now you can see from what I've said, Madam Speaker, I'm not opposed to the residential school. That's the ideal thing ..

It may have to come and before too long, but I want to remind the members of this Chambe:: that when, if we decide on that, the capital cost is going to be out of this world. It's going to be a tremendous thing, if we're·going to have something on the scale of the school at Saskatoon, the school at Belleville,Montrealand others, and we can't do less; but I would like to remi nd my honourable friend frorii lnkster that if we have the residen tial school, these children will be away from "mother love" during the school year, and that to my mind is of secondary importance.

In the meantime, we have the day school in Greater Winn ipeg where the children can be at home , we have the school at Saskatoon for those who are far removed from the Winnipeg school, and together they're doing a glorious job, and if you wanted a Gallup Poll on that question and ask the parents, the answer would be in the af fir mative. Page 552 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Martin, cont'd) .••.• Before I sit down I would just like to refer to one other thing, because the retarded chil dren come into this resolution. Madam Speaker, the socialization of the mentally retarded is the most fascinating problem which faces our social life. Time was when no serious effort was made to deal with this problem as far as educational processes were concerned, but those children live in a different world today.

Teachers are being trained, qualified to respond to the children's needs, and if you turn to the reports of the Department of Education and the Deputy Minister's report you read this: "The number of classes for the educable mentally re tarded continues to increase. The past year saw classes established in Dauphin,Altona , Birtle, Transcona, Grandview, Leonard, Portage la Prairie, Richer, Rivers, Shilo and Woodbridge, and testing programs began at numerous Manitoba points.

Because of the greater amount of individualized instruction required in special classes, and while in the- public school you may have 35 children in a class, you go to the school here on Wellington Avenue and you'll see the teacher sitting down with her class of six and seven. It's personal care and education. The Department, because of this, pays a teacher grant for a smaller number of pupils. To be eli gible for attendance in these classes the child concerned must be certified by an official desig nated by the Department of Health. So I'd like to sum it up this way, Madam Speaker.

As far as the mentally retarded are concerned -- true, they're going out into the world with a mini mum of qualifications as far as the three R's are concerned, but they're going to prove them selves, as a result of this training and education, of sufficient mental calibre that they will be able to enjoy a measure of self support and independence and become efficient citizens. My honourable friend said the re-opening of the school for the deaf, the crippled and the retarded.

I don't know whether he means three separate schools --heaven knows what that would begin to cost us and the population wouldn't justify it at the present time; and if he means three schools under one roof, then of course that wouldn't in any way solve the problem. May I, Madam Speaker, pay tribute to the voluntary agencies that are identified in this great enterprise. The Manitoba Society for Crippled Children -- what they are doing. Well, I said that there was vocational work at these two schools but that isn't sufficient. The Mani toba Society for Crippled Children does the follow-up work.

They watch these children; they give them an opportunity to come over there to their workshop and carry on their training, and after that they are responsible for providing jobs for the deaf, and also they have contacts with business firms who are showing a great interest in taking into their establishment children who come from our School for the Deaf here in Winnipeg as elsewhere. And the Order of For resters, providing hearing aids and typewriters, giving picnics to the children.

The Shrine Hospital for Crippled Children where it's a long-term treatment, but the government provides the teachers for their academic classes. The Canadian National Institute for the Blind assumes full responsibility for the occupation -- securing jobs for the graduates of the Ontario School for the Blind; and the Kinsmens Club who have organized special classes and have established a school, and we're just as familiar with the Kinsmen's bus up and down our streets as we are with the bus of the Crippled Children's Society.

And the Manitoba Council for Exceptional Children, where psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers combine in their effort to serve these handicapped children. And so, Madam Speaker, to these and all other groups and individuals who are sharing in this great work of social amelioration and physical and mental rehabilitation, I give a tip of the hat and a heartfelt "thank you''.

We are proud of what om· government is doing, not only in Education but in Health and in the Department of Welfare, combining their efforts with the organizations of these public- spirited citizens to which I have referred, all working together -- public-spirited citizens, government branches -- in a great humanitarian crusade, provid ing these children, who otherwise might be doomed to a lifetime of disability and unequal to have a fair place in society, providing them with protection and care and the opportunity for self -support and the prospect and the promise of facing the future unafraid. Thank you. MR. T.

P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Madam, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the· Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable Member for Roblin. March 22nd, 1963 Page 553

MR . KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Madam Speaker, I take

part in the debate on this subject first of all with a feeling of humility and inadequacy because, after all, one considers that the best minds in the world have worked and thought about this problem, and I think it might be a little presumptuous to think that the Honourable Member from Radisson and myself are going to have the solutions on it. However, I do feel that as individuals all of us have the responsibility to become well-informed on this important topic and to form our own opinions.

I think it is essential that we realize that the decision as to the use of nuclear arms should be a decision of civil government responsible to the public, rather than a decision of military authorities. A decision to use weapons such as these cannot and should not be left to the military mind; and following this line of reasoning, Madam Speaker, we come to what I feel are some very important requirements. First of all, we must. then have politicians and political parties who are prepared to abandon the principle of political expediency when dealing with this topic.

We must also have a concerned and a well-informed electorate which will do everything in its power to enable it to come to a reasonable decison and a reasoned decision on this matter. We must also have a responsible press and other media disseminating information on this question, presenting their views to the public in a clear and unbiased manner, and in this regard I would like, at this time, to congratulate the Winnipeg Tribune, both for their editorials and the nuclear primer series which they ran.

I understand that they are putting this primer out in booklet form and I personally would like to see a copy of it in every Canadian home. Radio Station CJOB in Winnipeg has also been running a series of very worthwhile editorials. There are some general comments which I would like now to make on this subject. First of all I'd like to state that the views I am expressing are my own personal ones, and I know that in some members' minds that this won't add to the value of them, but I still think that they should be expressed. MR . PAULLEY: You're too modest. MR . ALEXANDER: I hope I can continue to be.

I'd like to emphasize, however, that one can only express an opinion on conditions as they exist today. I know that events of the last two years have changed my mind, and it is possible that events in a fast-changing society in the next two years could change it again. We should realize, I think, that it is the earnest desire of all of us to live in a world where nations can live in an atmosphere of mutual respect, trust and peace. I think we must state at the outset that Communism is the greatest threat that free men have ever known. I'd like to quote from Dr.

Charles Malek, former President of the United Nations, in an address that he gave to the Second National Conference of Southern Baptist Men at Memphis, Tennessee, and he says this: "The character of the Communist challenge con sists, first, in a conception of matter, man, society, history, government and the Supreme Being; radically different from, and opposite to, anything you and I arid our ancestors have known for the last 4, 000 years.

Second, in the existence of a superbly organized political party with an absolutely dedicated membership all over the world, actively working to bring every people on earth under the bondage of its philosophy. Third, in this party's use of every conceivable means, war, revolution, subversion, infiltration, propaganda, intimidation, dic tatorship, smear tactics, character assassination, exciting the basest instincts in man, play ing up differences and grievances between nations and peoples and races and classes, to attain its unalterable ends of world domination.

Fourth, in the fact that this world revolutionary trust is backed by'one of the most powerful military establishments in the world; and fifth, in the fact that this world revolutionary force has succeeded in extending and consolidating its iron hold upon at least a third of the human race. " I think that very adequately sums up the position of Communism in the world today; and the fact that an all-out war between the armed forces of this society and the western world has not broken out can be attributed to the theory of a credible nuclear deterrent in the hands of the United States.

To be a deterrent the force must be large enough to do the job. It must be capable of being delivered and the enemy must believe that you have the will to deliver it and to use it when called upon. I feel that we must support the United States in this regard. Unlike a lot of supporters of the New Democratic Party, I feel that in the face of the Com munist threat that now is no time for pacifism; now is no time for "ban the bomb" movements; Page 554 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Alexander, cont'd) ... •• no time for neutralism; no time for philosophies that in this struggle we intend to represent a position half-way between the U.S.A. and Russia. I would like now to look at the respective roles which, as sovereign countries, we are able to play in world affairs. We must first look at the nuclear deterrent capability of the United States. Up until recently this consisted of SAC bombers armed with nuclear bombs on constant patrols or dispersed around the world, to deliver a counter attack. The Russian threat was the same.

Under this system the deterrent was sufficient to prevent all-out war. The bombers were susceptible to conventional defences. This situation has drastically changed today. Intercontinental ballistic missiles can now deliver nuclear or bacteriological warheads with very little warning and unbelievable accuracy. It is estimated that the nuclear capability of the U.S.A. is now ten times what is required to destroy the population of the Soviet Union. We also know that the Soviet Union has operational missiles capable of delivering hydrogen bombs on targets in this continent.

Mutual fear today is what is making the deterrent work. This provision of the credible nuclear deterrent has been supplied for the west by the United States, and this must, in my opinion, continue until such times as bilateral agreements, or test bans and general disarmament can be reached. I feel that Canada should not accept nuclear arms at the present time for various reasons. First of all is the fact that the nuclear capability should be contained. This terrible force must not be handled indiscriminately. The fewer fin gers on the trigger, the less likelihood of mistakes being made.

There should be only one fin ger on the trigger, and that finger must be that of the United States. Nuclear weapons in Canada are going to add nothing to the theory of a credible nuclear deterrent. Nuclear weapons will add nothing to the defence of this country in this age of inter-continental ballistic missiles. If, in the future, an effective anti-missile is developed, then I think what I have just said might be open for review and should be re-examined. We now come to the part that Canada has played in the bilateral peaceful negotiations in the world today, both within the United Nations and without.

For a resume of this, I would like to refer the me m hers to a speech given by the Honourable Howard Green in the House of Com mons on Thursday, January 24th. Time here does not permit me to use wide quotations from it. It has to be read in its full entirety to get the benefit from it. I would, however, like to quote from one of the Nuclear Primer Series, No. 17, which was run by the Winnipeg Tribune. It says: "Foreign Policy Nuclear Age. Canada is a founding member of the non-nuclear club.

Canada is the first nation that, having the capacity to build atomic bombs, chose not to build . them." Many Canadians are unaware of Canada's position in world affairs stemming out of this. Since World War ll, Canada has been a prominent participant in all disarmament negotiations. Canada is now regarded as a permanent member of the 18-nation Disarmament Committee at Geneva --five west, five east, and eight neutral. The role Canada plays is in bridging the gap between western and uncommitted countries. Even among the Communist countries, Canada is recognized for its objective policy.

In the United Nations Canada has played a major role in helping maintain peace in many areas, most significantly in the Gbazze Strip between Egypt and Israel. Nuclear nations are not acceptable for this sensitive but necessary duty. New nations regard Canada as a country to be trusted in the high tensions arising out of the cold war. Even though Canada stands firm in the western alliance, Canadian policies are esteemed for their moderating influence. To some Canadians grown tired of tension, these efforts per haps appear futile, but millions of others watching this country's efforts would not agree.

We must realize, however, that deterrents, gradual disarmament progress, and agreements do not provide lasting peace. They only provide time, and here we come to what I feel and call the crux of the whole question. How can we relate this world-wide problem, this feeling of helplessness that people seem to have in face of world affairs, on the one hand, and on the other hand, relate it to a feeling and need of individual responsibility? We have said before that Communism stands for a philosophy, a way of life, and we as individuals have to prove that we are opposed to it. Too often.

I feel that we of the western world are trying to fight an atheistic materialistic society with another one whose chief boast and claim tO fame is a higher materialistic standard. I feel that we in the western world must give up our continual selfish search and struggle for status symbols. We must instead use our resources and opportunity to provide education and other assistance to the illiterate people of the world, and we must do March 22nd, 1963 Page 555

l�· Alexander, cont'd) ••.•• this by individual voluntary eff ort. We must emphasize the �piritual side of man. This complex human being was created by a creator for a purpose, and f-Ie must prove to the world that we disagree with the purpose of life as outlined by the Com munist philosophy. We must have faith in ou:r convictions so that we can have contact with Communism without fear of corruption or conversion, but, on the other hand, with hope of converting them ourselves. It has been truly said that we will never have lasting peace with out changing the nature of man.

It has also been said that this attempt has been going on for thousands of years and we have made very little progress as yet. It is to be hoped that the . . stress imposed by nuclear war and Communism will awaken in all of us a sense of our indivi d.ual responsibility to do what we can to hasten the process, because time is short. To sum up, Madam Speaker , we must at the present time depend on the theory of a credible nuclear deterrent. We must rely on the United States to supply it.

We must use the time this gives us to work toward bilateral agreements on test bans and disarmament, and, far more important, we must use the time available to examine our spiritual way of life and confront and oppose atheistic Communism with the fact that we here believe in the brotherhood of mankind and the fatherhood of God. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Member for Lake side, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . OSCAR F. BJORNSON (Lac du Bonnet): Madam Speaker, in speaking on this reso lution of the Honourable Member for St. Bonif ace, I am at the commencement of this presen tation going to associate myself with him, and also with the Honourable Minister of Education, ensuring this Assembly that I am not either an expert in this field.

However, I do share to a considerable extent with the other 56 members of this Assembly the desire to do my very ut most in improving the field of education in our fair province. · If we look back on television we realize that the advent of television into our lives is not too many years behind us, and it has become in that very short time a very real and important part of our everyday existence. I need not expand on the benefit that it has been to the thou sands of people in our country, or the "pain in the neck" it has been to many others.

However, to utilize this media, television, in the instruction of our students seems to me to be about as natural as nature itSelf. The benefits of adding visual instruction to established methods is most overwhelmingly accepted as a very superior instrument in teaching students rather than lecturing them only. The combination of a picture accompanied by a lecture can be most helpful in understanding any given subjects. TV seems to meet this combination of visual and lecture method, and they have given it a name of "audio visual education".

At the very commencement of TV in Canada, as far back as 1952 when there were probably only two places able to take advantage of it, that being Ontario and Quebec, the CBC offered a series of programs to pupils in Grades 5 and 6, and other programs to pupils in Grades 7 and 8. The primary purpose of this experiment was designed to determine whether or not TV could assist teachers in their instructional work, and to assess to what extent TV might take its place with the other accepted media of information such as radio, fi lms, film strips and slides, which were widely in use at that time, and still are.

Subsequently, the broadcasts were shown coast -to -coast in Canada when it was possible to do so, and although its reception was received favourably by students and teachers alike, it was not altogether a complete suc cess. It did serve, however, to show that interest could be aroused in the students, but it left some doubt in the minds of the teachers as to how a complete coverage could be made to a large number of classes in either our elementary or our secondary schools, on a given canned program which was prepared beforehand and then rendered to them through the media of TV.

Another experiment in teaching television was undertaken in 1957 by the Halifax Public School. Here the lessons planned covered Grade 4 science, Grade 6 geography, Grade 8 mathematics, and there were some nine broadcasts or renditions of this, and it is rather disappointing when one looks over the analysis - these were half -hour lessons; they were Page 556 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Bjornson, cont'd) ••... given in 27 schools to some 3, 019 pupils --and a disappointment to me was to see the recap of the interest sustained for even half an hour was 43.9 for "yes" and 56. 1 for "no". This is a disappointing figure when one visualizes the tremendous impact that TV should have on the children. I took the opportunity to discuss these matters with a retired school principal inmy own neighborhood.

He has 40 years of experience in both the elementary and secondary schools,'-and I found that he was most enthusiastic over the TV method of student instruction, ·a nd he expressed his view quite strongly that it was beneficial to both the pupil as well as the teacher. He did state that this was an opportunity for the stu dents to get the very top instruction possible. He made reservations, however, in the mechan ics of getting this to the most pupils at the best time. He was very concerned about what they call "the coverage".

He had some concern also for the ability of the slow student to receive full benefit from this rather rapid type of presentation, inasmuch as such students cannot conveniently question the matter not too well understood by them at the time, when the relevant question comes into their minds. He was emphatic in pointing out that he thought that this was an aid to teaching, and that only; and further, that it had quite a few limitations.

I also took the opportunity of discussing this with the principal of our collegiate institute , and I found him in favour of expanding the facilities of this type of instruction, and that he had, on his own initiative, on more than one occasion used his own TV to bring worthy programs to the attention of his students. His concern was the same idea --coverage and resolv:ing the problem of preparing the programs to fit into this curriculum. I would like to read into the record an

article published in Mcl.ean's Magazine on Feb ruary 11th, 1961. The

article is pertinent to Manitoba on the subject which is under discussion. The title is "An Ex-School Teacher's Bold Adventure Into Television". It was written by Ray Tulloch and it reads as follows: "Although it is six years since the CBC began broadcasting for classrooms across Canada, teaching by TV is still sampled eagerly or shunned completely in most provinces. One province where it isn't shunned is Manitoba, and the reason it isn't is almost solely a tiny energetic ex-school teacher named Gertrude McCance.

Since 1959 Miss McCance has entranced students all over Manitoba with telecasts that have caught inter national attention. As Director of the Provincial Education Department School Broadcast Branch she runs an audio-visual operation including extensive radio programming, with a staff of just herself and three others, and spends less than a tenth of her funds an TV productions, and this year's total budget" --which reverts to 196 1 --"is $51, 500, but they look like any thing but shoe-string productions.

One of her earliest, a thirty-minute study of the Elizabe than theatre, won a first award from Ohio State University, custodian of the Oscars of educa tional broadcasting. Five thousand pupils in 82 schools in Manitoba saw it, and teachers and pupils liked it. One teacher said a boy who had balked at Shakespeare all term was ready to start a fan club for the bard. Bottom - and this is evidently a title --in a scene from Mid summer Night's Dream, was so funny that our whole class was rolling in the aisles.

Since then Miss McCance's branch has produced programs on history, geography, and economic growth, and a separate series on social studies. Now she's prepar·ing new programs for this spring on other aspects of the same subjects , and all Western Canada will have a chance to see repeats of several of the earlier shows this term or the next. Like past programs, her new ones will be much more than just a teacher on the screen.

A history program, for in stance, may include a filmed interview, a scene played by professional actors, a documentary movie, graphic illustrations, recording in maps, plus an oration by a teacher experienced in TV. Probably her most noteworthy production yet will also be seen this spring, three 30- minute installments of the Sean 01 Casey play Juno and the Paycock. As far as she knows it has never been televised.

She picked the title out of Manitoba Grade 12 curriculum, got a director, John Hirsch, enthusiastic about having his Manitoba Theatre Centre perform it, then wrote to 01Casey for permission to adapt the play for TV. As soon as 01Casey sent his blessing she began badgering him to record an introduction, which, if he obliges will become part of the first installment on April 17th. Typically her branch will pay only the script writer's and the actors' fees. She bamboozles people into working with her and picks their banks , Hirsch explained admiringly.

The CBC Winnipeg station CBWT and two private sta tions, KXTV Brandon and KOSTV Yorkton, are donating air time for the 01Casey play as they have for other school programs. If the O'C asey play is as successful as Shakespear was, March 22nd, 1963 Page 557

(Mr. Bjornson, cont'd) ••..• Hirsch's ... .•.•• with McCance will urge the Theatre Centre to do other plays from the curricu lum. But even if Paycock doesn't pay off, other provinces are sure to turn to Manitoba for practical advice this May when 100 leading educators from across Canada meet to dis cuss classroom TV. Miss McCance points out that teaching by TV has limitations, and radio is better on some subjects. 'One of our biggest jobs, 1 she said, 'is to find those areas where each media is better than the other. 1 So far it's been a fruitful search.

" Now I don't know whether I have �leared up the issue as to whether the member speaking is in favour of this resolution. I would like it' to be made abundantly clear that I am; that I think that it would be a wonderful thing if we did our utmost in furthering this very exciting subject, this very exciting project, and just this morning -- if I may digress a little bit -- I happened to be glancing through the January issue of the Readers' Digest, and I'm going to take you ten years into the future in one small little paragraph here and it reads as follows: "TT -- Tele-Theatre.

Perhaps ten years from now, really high-powered television trans mitters will be put into orbit and into the very special orbit that allows them to remain fixed in the sk;y the so-called stationary or synchronous orbit. When that time comes, you will be able to tune in dire ctly to Europe or As ian programs coming straight down from the sk;y." And maybe this is where our answer will come from and some of our problems if we let our flights of fancy carry us a little bit into the future.

We may be able to tune into Bombay, India and find out how Pakistan is making out against Australia, we'll say, in the International cricket matches. We could flip the dial a little further and get Reykjavik, Iceland, that won derful country up in the north there; find out what the navy is doing now that they've chased the British Fleet out of their fishing waters, and then an intriguing thought would be that we could get our lessons in French direct from Paris -- this may be the answer to the Honourable Member from St. Boniface -- this would be imported, it would be an inter-continental blast.

I thank you for listening to my rambling and I don't know whether I've confused you or con vinced you, but it's been a pleasure speaking. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q, C. (Minister of Education) (Dauphin) : ....... . seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for Dufferin. MR. WILLIAM H.

HAMILTON (Dufferin): Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie brought forth a very interesting resolution the other day. I'm in agree ment that everything possible should be done to eliminate or greatly reduce traffic hazards and fatal accidents on our highways . Great progress has been made in this regard across Manitoba. New highways have been constructed and old existing roads have been greatly im proved, as is quite evident.

The broken surfaces and chuck holes of '54 - 157 have given away to a good smooth highway surface of today and this has greatly contributed to the reduction of accidents as is well known. In 1960 the Automotive Safety Foundation of Washington, D. C. was engaged to examine the present and future highway needs of Manitoba. They prepared a blueprint for road con struction for 20 years right up to the year 1980.

The plans are flexible and can be altered to meet changing circumstances, but as a result of this study, for the first time, Manitobans are able to know the basic plan for the future road and highway construction and the Government of Manitoba is able to carefully plan the financing, building and maintaining of a highway net work in the province that will be adequate to current 20th century needs .

The Safety Founda tion told the government there's a tremendous backlog of cons truction necessary to bring the present system to modern safety standards and I'm sure that's well evident to most of the rural members of this House. The network of market roads through rural Manitoba have been sharply upgraded over the past four and a half years as a result of increased grant and aid, the municipalities of Manitoba are placed in the position where they can plan and finance an adequate local network of roads and bridges. The Manitoba Government now bears the cost ·of pro viding access roads in the P.

T. highways to the main market centres of towns and vil lages and this has been a large factor in reducing accidents especially in my own particular Page 558 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Hamilton, cont1d) . • . • • area. The general belief that the ten mile portion of the Trans Canada Highway to which the Honourable Member from Portage refers as a dangerous portion of highway hardly seems justifi ed. This idea seems to stem from the practice of descri bing the location of the acci dents as being near Elie. In reality after checking the accidents are spread over the distance of approximately 27 mil es.

I say that descri bing this portion of the Trans-Canada as a dangerous portion of highway seems hardly justi fied in view of the fact that the acci dent rate of 1. 2 acci dents per million vehic le miles compares wit h other high volume roads with simi lar standards and as compared to the P. T. H. highway coverage of 2. 1 accidents per million vehic le miles . This entrance to the metropolitan area carries a large density of traffic on our P. T.

H. system, but I point out to honourable members that ac cidents that have occurred there sometimes are of a spectacular nature resulting in the death of several persons in the accident. In 158 only one fatal accident occurred on this portion of the highway . The accident was a head-on collision, which occurred during daylight hours on a dry straight

section of the highway . During 159 two fatal accidents occurred and a total of seven persons were killed. Only one fatal accident happened in 1960 in which four persons were kil led. Again, this accident occurred in the daytime on a dry, straight portion of the highway . These accidents occurred as a result of eithe r passing when unsafe to do so, or ex cessi ve speed and in one case alcohol was a contri buting factor, along with excessi ve speed. Four fatal acci dents occurred on thi s 27-mile portion in 1961. As a result of these four acci dents, four persons di ed.

Of these acci dents , three invo lved another vehicle while one was a run-off-the-roadway type. Of the th ree acci dents in which another vehic le was inv olved two occurred at nigh t and one in daylight. Two of these accidents occurred on a straight road, one at an int ersec ti on, whil e the fourth occurred on a curve when a motorist attempted to pass when it was not safe to do so, and ran into the rear end of the vehic le ahead. In all cases the drivers were apparently exceedi ng the speed limit, which is a common practi ce .

The severity rate for accidents occurring on this portion of highway is . 40 whic h means that 40 percent of all the accidents resulted in death or inj ury. Although this figure is highe r than the over-all provincial average of . 26 there are several examples where the severity rate is hig her. An attempt has been made to group the cause of acci dents with the following results: 46 percent of the accidents were caused by driver operating faults such as following too closely, failing to stop before entering into the highway, passing when unsafe.

Condition of the driv er, ine briat ed, falling asleep at the steering wheel and inexp erience has contributed to 22 percent of the accidents . The other 32 percent of the accidents were caused by a miscel laneous as sortment of unavoidable circumstances such as anim als barging onto the highway during the daylight and at night, mechanical fai lure, blowouts , etcetera.

As honourable members can appreciate , legislation can be enacted in this House for practically anything but no one can enforce legislation to control the psychological urges of motorists which cause them to disregard good sense and good management when operating a motor vehi cle. Traffic accident reports indic ate that in none of those cases there would ap pear to be -- that the concentration of accidents can be intimated that the present highway de sign was a cause factor. In the majority of cases driver action was the main cause factor of the acciden t.

During a three-year period 3, 285, 000 vehic les traversed this 27 -mile sec tion of highway and the acci dent rate was one accident for every 28, 318 vehic les using this portion of the highway . Therefore, it might be assumed that 28, 316 motor vehicle operators are driving normally on a normal highway wit hout accident while two other drivers collide because one or both of them ign ored some common rule of the road. Analysis of acci dent reports ap pear to bear out this assumption.

Accidents in the Province of Manitoba have been showing a decrease for the past six years, with the exception of 1_61• The 1962 accident rate for Mani toba shows a decrease of . 27 percent under the 161 figure and these decreases in Mani toba are in di rect opposition to the general trend upwards elsewhere. The only other province showing a decrease in traffic acci dents is Newfoundland. I think that Manitobans can be justifiably proud of a decreasing accident rate in face of an ever-i ncreasi ng population of motor vehicle registrations which this year should approxi mately reach 360, 000.

In Alberta the 1962 highway record was the worst in the provin ce's history and I am quoting my inf ormation that I gleaned from the "C anadian Underwri ter" dated March 1st, 1963. The Alberta record was an increase of 8 percent over the 1961 figure . March 22nd, 1963 Page 559

(Mr. Hamilton, cont'd) ••.. • During 1962 Saskatchewan suffered a higher death rate toll on the roads than in '61. The tendency for sensationalism in the reporting of accidents and nam ing the ten-mile portion of highway to which the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie refers as "death strip", possibly leaves the motorist who is leaving on a trip with the impres sion that accident occurrence is beyond his control. I would hazard to say that the majority of motor vehicle operators when starting out on this stretch of highway do so with the precon ceived feeling of insecurity as to the element of danger.

However, no one is denying the ad vantage to be derived from my honourable friend's suggestion, but I do feel he has exaggerated the circumstances out of all proportion and in moving an amendment to his resolution concern ing which my honourable friend asked, and I quote: "How will the amender feel the next time he picks up the newspaper and reads of another accident on this portion of highway." I would ask him, how will my honourable friend or any other member of this House feel when he picks up a newspaper and reads of a fatal accident anywhere in the Province of Manitoba.

The Provincial Highway Department is fully aware that they'd like to build all highways four-lane width; I would like to see that and we will some day. And I know at the present time -- practically sure of it -- at the present time they are negotiating for railway property with this objective in mind, of obtaining more land.

Therefore, Madam Speaker, I move the following amendment to the resolution introduced by the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher, that the motion be amended by deleting these words after the word "Whereas" in the first line and substituting therefor the following -- "The question of highway safety is a matter of concern to the House and,

Whereas the accident rate on certain portions of the Trans-Canada Highway from its easterly junction with PTH No. 4 west of Headingley to its junction with PTH No. 4 west of the City of Portage la Prairie requires appropriate remedial measures and,

Whereas the traffic flow projections on this portion of the Trans-Canada Highway indicate the desirability of increasing traffic facilities before long; And

Whereas the Department of Public Works is now negotiating with the Canadian National Railroad respecting the abandonment of the Harte sub-division; Therefore

be it resolved that this House request the government to pro ceed as quickly as possible with remedial safety measures in the aforesaid portion of the Trans Canada Highway and to continue with their negotiations respecting a right-of-way for a divided highway between Headingley and Portage la Prairie. Madam Speaker presented the motion. · MR. NELS ON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakesi.de, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. . . . . . . . Continued on next page Page 560 March 22nd, 1963

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for Hamiota. MR . B. P. STRICKLAND (Hamiota): The amount of the applause this afternoon is over whelming, Madam Speaker, and I am sure that the House will be sorry to learn that I adjourned this debate on behalf of the Honourable Member for Souris-La nsdowne . MR. M. E.

McKELLAR (Souris-Lansd owne): Madam Speaker, maybe it would have been better to have listened to the Honourable Member for Hamiota rather than listen to me, but, in any case , you'll have to put up with me for the next couple of minutes. Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie said in his speech the other day that grants to school divisions and school districts are paid eight months after the year is up , which makes it necessary for the school divisio.ns and school districts to have to go to the bank to borrow money in order to be able to finance their operations .

He suggested that an advance of 25 percent be made at the start of each year in order that it will stop them from having to go to the banks to borrow money. I would .like to explain to the members of this Chamber as to how the school divisions and school districts rece ive their payments from the Department of Education and from the muni cipality. For the first six months of each year , January to June , they are paid 60 percent of their annual budget on instructional ser vices, maintenance, administration, supplies and trans po rtation in the month of September.

For the months of July to December they are paid 40 per cent of instructional services and 20 percent of maintenance , administration, supplies and transportation, this coming in the middle of March. After the financial reports for the year are received at the Department of Education in April , tney are reviewed and if money is owing for maintenance, administration, supplies and transportation, final adjustment is made to tne var ious school divisions and school districts .

Under' The Public Schools Act , school divisions and school districts must not have a reser ve greater than 60 perce nt of their annual budget. The 0.3- partment of Education encourages school divisions and school districts .to budget so that they may build up a cash reserve sufficient to avoid borrowing. Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the members that the school divisions and school districts receive their revenue from �he m1micipalities and from �he Department of Education. Advancing money to the school divisions and school districts will not assist in their financing.

Al s·:>, it will mean that many municipalities will have to borrow this money in order to pay this_ advanced payment. Once the school divisions and school districts are able to build- up a rese rve to finance their operations for six months, their problem of having to borrow to finance their operations will be over. MR. SAUL CH ERNIACK (St .

John's) : I marvel at the arguments of the Honourable Mem ber from Souris- Lansdowne in that he is suggesting that somehow or other the school divisions, whose only source of revenue in terms of colle ction or the right to demand same , should go to the taxpayers and tax them sufficiently in order to acquire a surplus or a cash reserve , which would then be held and used by the school division in ord3r to finance the late payments made by the provincial government.

It seems to me , therefore , that what they are told to do is build up a reserve because we are not prepared to pay you in time to finance the current operations for which you are liable ; and, in the end , it ends up that the same municipal real property tax payer is carrying a burden which, to me in this case , is unfair.

The Honourable the First Minister, in dealing with a question asked of him on the pay ment of the portion of income tax to which the province is entitled, explained that all of us pay an es timated amount, if by payroll deductions , weekly or monthly; and if otherwise , by quarterly payments , based on an est imate of what we expect will be the payment we will make at the end of the year .

And the Honourable the First Minister explained that the government of Canada, which receives these income tax payments quarterly at the latest, remits to the province quar terly its share , or its estimated share because they don't. know the share ; and at the end of the year when the figures are actually calculated, then an adjustment is made . Now , I thought that was a most reasonable method of handling it, and one which should and obviously does satis fy the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer in terms of financirig.

When the motion was prese nted , I thought, reading it quickly, that it seemed like a good idea. I did not for a moment realize the extent to which this was an impact on the municipal taxpayer. I then acquired some information, which is somewhat similar to the information given March 22nd, 1963 Page 561

(Mr. Cherniack cont'd) ....•... us by the honourable member who last spoke, and that is that �ayments are made -- I have nine months after the beginning of the term for which they're paid. J.n other words, January to June payments are paid on September 30th . I understand it takes 11bout that long for the department to get the exact calculation on which to base this .

I made a quick calculation that for the last three months the school division had paid out all its money and was entitled to assistance for the full interest rate on the last three months, and that in the first six months it was spending at a rate which would be equivalent to a full three months. Therefore , I calculate that the payment is in a total six months late , although it takes nine months to accumulate. The inte rest value is for six months, which at six percent per annum is three percent.

When I see that the grants amount to $28, 000, 000, I calculate three percent of that and I find that we are talking about $750, 000, which I think is a rough estimate of the extent to which the school divisions and the municipalities, and through them the municipal taxpayer, carries the burden for the province and eases to that extent the provincial tax by _this postponed payment. Now, I was reminded of the fact that our government is most conscious of interest rates, because when many of the honourable gentlemen present participated in voting for The Metro Act, there was a

section there providing that since in the first year of 1960 there was no tax revenue coming in to Metro, the corporation could borrow $110 , 000 from the province as an advance, which was repayable in 1961 out of 1961 taxes . I remember the amazement of all members of Metropolitan Council when they paid the $110,0 00 and received a bill for interest. The Honourable the First Minister is shaking his head, and since he's looking at me he must disagree with my -- and lle do·3S disagree with my statement that we were asked for inte rest.

I don't have an opportunity yet -- I haven't learned yet whether his memory is better than mine. I can only speak of the fact that, as a member of the Metropolitan Corporation Council, I par ticipated in a mild debate where we agreed that we would reject the provincial government's request for inte rest, and did so.

Subsequently, I understand, a grant was made equivalent - well after the Metropolitan Corporation had an opportunity to receive a bill for interest and to reject the bill for inte rest and to tell the government to do whatever it wanted to do in order to collect it, then a grant was made by the provincial governm ent to the Metro Corporation equivalent to the amount of inte rest, and, in that way, the First M::ni ster seems to feel that he was justified in shaking his head at me when I made the statement that they were anxious for inte rest. MR.

ROBLIN: If my honourable friend will permit me to correct him , I'm sure he didn't mean to say a grant for the amount of interest. That's what he said. I'm sure he meant to say a grant for the whole sum of $11 0,0 00. 00. MR. CH ERNIACK: Well I was dealing with interest, and I assumed that the government did waive the inte rest. I assume also that the interest was waived after tre Metro Corporation rejected the request for interest. Now, if •.... MR. ROBLIN: .• ••••. Metro had more persuasive spokesmen than you on the occasion or all you'd have got back was the inte rest. MR.

CHERNIACK: Well if the First Minister feels that my persuasive powers are in ad3quate for his purposes, I can only say that I must rely on the constituents of St. John's to decide whether my persuasive powers are sufficient to measure up to my right to sit in this House. Madam Speaker, if I might say, I've learned that the decorum in this Chamber leaves somewhat -- s'.lme to be desired, and I felt it only fair that I make the comment that I made when prompted to do so. I want to come back to the province's <J?ep interest in interest, which I've attempted to give as an example on that $110 ,0 00 .0 0.

I want to make the point that just as the federal government is able to advance money to the province on the assumption that tlie province will be in existence and in business and accountable at the end of the year, so should the ministry of education or the provincial treasurer , who seems to feel keenly about this , be able to assess the possibility at the end of the six months' period of adjusting with the scho:>l divisions the amount of grants which should or would have been paid . The mover of the motion suggested a 25 percent advance .

I think he is suggesting that because it is so low that nobody could ques tion the proposal . It seems to me that a 75 percent proportion would be not at all out of line , especially since , in the end, the province retains its power over the body which it has created. Page 562 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Cherniack cont'd) •.•.•. So it seems to me that the motion is most reasonable and merits the support of the House. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the que stion? MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON {Portage la Prairie): Madam Speaker , with your permis sion I would like to adjourn the debate, seconded by tbe Honourable Member for St. Boniface. Madam Speaker presented tbe motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SP EA.KER: The adjourtJ.ed debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for St. :&>nifac e. The HonoUrable Member for Rupertsland. MR . J. E.

JEANOTTE (Rupertsland}: Madam Speaker, I have naturally a special inter est in speaking on the motion of the t!onourable Member for St. Boniface to encourage the teaching of French in our schools starting from Grade 1. I should like to compliment the honourable member on the broad-minded and non-partisan way in which he approached the very important subject of teaching of French in the schools of Manitoba. However, concerning the teaching of French, there is a slight ma::ter on which I do not fully agree with the honourable member .

He stated that teaching French to the children in Grade 1 to Grade 3 was carried on in a sort of illegal manner . fu fact, done more or less against tbe law. I'm not question ing the truth of his statement for I have no first-hand information on this case. On tbe other hand, I would like to say that in many schools the teachers and pupils nave spent and sacri ficed many hours , both before a::ad-aft&- school hours , in the teaching and learning of French. Great sacrifices were made.

Therefore, I see that the French Canadian people of Manitoba have given us ample proof of their love for their mother tongue, of trying to achieve some thing which we all, I think, feel that is very good, and I believe that their perserverance in this effort should receive recognition. Since tbe First Great War , English and French have been recognized as the ma jor inter national language, firstly by the League of Na tion, then by the United Nations Organization and lately by NATO .

I note also , with pleasure , that many of my friends of Anglo-Saxon an cestry are today learning French and some speak it very fluently -- very well. At the head of our Commonwealth, Her Majesty the Queen speaks French very fluently. Her Majesty's representative in Canada, His Excellency George Vanier, our Governor-General, speaks English but sp.3aks French as well. And last but not least , at the head of our Manitoba Govern ment, the Honourable Duff Roblin, our Premier, speaks French and speaks it very well.

We recognize that the Department of Education and some of the school boards have been actively studying tne feasibility of teaching French from Grade 1. Many of tbe studies were prompted by the expert advice that teaching of French or of any otber language would be more effective at an earlier age . The desire of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface to get things started is fully appreciated, and I believe, understood. It would, however, not be prop er for the Department of Education, or school boards to announce their intentions before plans to operate the change are completed. {M::-.

Jeannotte spoke briefly in French. Translation will appear in Monday's Hansard.) I'm offering these changes in my honourable friend's resolution. I do so only because I think it's important that it be made thoroughly effective, that it may commend support in every part of the House , which the honourable member in his remarks last Friday afternoon showed himself anxious to secure .

This is one of the subjects on which we can all join together gladly as Manitobana , and in thanking the mover of the resolution I would like to acknowledge that he has generously shared the credit for promoting the bilingual character of our province and has wisely followed the road most likely to lead to advances in national unity which will best mark the· conclusion of the first century of confederation. I hope, Madam Speaker, that this resolution, with the clarifications that I have suggested, should receive the unanimous support of the House .

Now, Madam Speaker, I would like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for St. James , that the resolution be amended as follows: First , by striking out the words "in our Public Schools Act" from the first line of the third paragraph thereof. Second, by striking out the word "optional" from the second line of the third paragraph thereof. Third, that paragraph four be struck out. Fourth, that the fifth paragraph be struck out and the following substituted therefore: "and

whereas the Department of Education has been strengthening the teaching of French in Manitoba schools by revising the courses of study and the adoption of new and revised textbooks designed to encourage and March 22nd, 1963 Page 563

(Mr. Jeannotte cont•d) •••••• assist the successful teaching of French to the boys and girls of Manitoba; and

whereas the Minister of Education on the 12th day of November, 1962, re ferred to the Advisory Board the question of extending the teaching of French in the elementary grades.

Now therefore

be it resolved that this House approves the action taken by the Minister of Education and recommends that the Department of Education continue, in co-operation with the Advisory Board, consideration of extending the teaching of French in the Manitoba school system. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour- able Member for Kildonan that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution -- the Honourable Member for St. George. MR .

ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam Speaker, I heg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster,

whereas following a general election appears to be the opportune time to review the conduct of an election; and

whereas it appears there may have been certain irregularities in the conduct of the election; and further

whereas it appears that there is confusion in the interpreta tions of certain sections of The Election Act. Therefore

be it resolved that the Commi ttee on Elections and Privileges be ordered to review The Election Act of Manitoba, to hear represen tations of persons desiring to make the same, and to recommend such changes in The Election Act as may be necessary to clarify the intent of present legislation and ensure impartiality in all aspects of the conduct of an election. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR.

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, in introducing this resolution for the consideration of the House, I do so not because of any feeling of disappointment in the results of the last election but rather because it appears to me that it became evident during the election, and was also evi dent after the election, that we must undertake a complete review once again of The Election Act. I appreciate the fact that a committee of the House considered the act a few years ago. As a matter of fact, Madam Speaker, in 1960.

This committee made certain recommendations as to change, but seeing that we have now gone through another election, other changes appear to be necessary. · The first comment that I would make would be that, in my opinion, due to the reduction to 35 days as the minimum for an election, our election officials did not have the proper time to prepare for an election. There is concrete evidence that the enumeration of voters left much to be desired. In every constituency there were complaints of names being left off the lists, even to a larger degree, Madam Speaker, than previously.

It may be that this was because the election was called in the wintertime, and just before Christm as when people were not at home and were not placed on the list as a consequence. As a result of this, many people found that on election day they were deprived of their right to vote.

I appreciate the fact that there is pro visions within our Election Act for the vouching at polls for people who have been left off the list, but I'm sure the House will appreciate the difficulty of obtaining these people who would vouch for them particularly in the wintertime, and of the necessity of finding two people who would vouch for any individual who was left off the list at the polls. I note that in the constituency of Churchill, the county court judge pointed out that there were a considerable number of people added to the list, but who were only vouched for by one person.

This, of course, is a violation of The Election Act. However, the judge, in his wisdom, declared that he could not upset the election because of this. I'm not going to raise the question particularly as to whether or not the 35 day minimum in an election favoured the government, but it seems to me that it does. I realize that in the last election some of the Ca binet Ministers of the Crown were out of the country at the time of the calling of the election, and at least exhibited surprise when the Premier called an election.

I suppose this government would use that as an argument, that the calling of this particular eleCtion at the time it did was not beneficial to the government. During the debates in 1960 on the Bill Page 564 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley cont1d) •••••••• to establish the minimum of 35 days for an election, the Attorney General had this to say, and I quote from page 1870 of Hansard of March 23, 1960, in which he said: 11I reject out of hands the suggestion that this is a move by the government to favour the government or anything like that. It is not that, Sir, because if it were, we certainly would not be bringing it forward.

" I think though, Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the statement, it is evident that the voter, who is far more important than the government, was prejudiced against as the result of the minimum of 35 days for the calling of an election. I think at this stage, Madam Speak er, it may be well for me to point out that I am not alone in this contention, for I have before me a copy of a submission from the Winnipeg Cham ber of Commerce to the committee that was looking into the question of elections in November of 1960.

This .is after the legislation was amended to decrease the number of days for an elec tion, and I want to quote one or two portions of this submission of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce dealing with elections . The first quote I would make, Madam Speaker, is this: "Democ ratic government can only exist if election of the members of its governing bodies are conducted on a basis which is fair to all and which offers to all citizens a convenient opportun ity to hear and discuss the policies and issues presented by the candidates and to cast their ballot on election day.

It is therefore important that the election procedures should provide for a reasonable opportunity for individuals and groups to select. candidates and make their views known. It should also provide convenient and sm oothly-functioning ma chinery for the taking of the vote on the day specified for the election. it And then the brief goes on to say: "The first point we would raise is a matter of the length of time between the proclamation of an election and the date when it is to be held.

It appears to us that 14 days from the date of official nominations until the date of elections allows a reasonable opportunity for the necess ary printing and other mech anical arrangements, and also for the candidates to make their positions known. " I might say, deviating from the brief, Madam Speaker, I agree with this contention. And then the brief goes on further to say: 11 The present Act, however, provides that the procla mation of the date of the election can only be 21 days before the date for official nomination.

We are aware that the Act provides for a longer period, that a longer period may be provided by the Proclam ation, but we are concerned that an election called on notice of only 21 days be fore a nomination date would leave a completely inadequate period for the selection of candi dates and for the setting up of arrangements needed to allow candidates and their supporters to publicize their views and discuss the issues upon which the voters must decide.

We, there fore, urge your comm ittee to provide that the proclamation of an election must, as a minimum , provide notice of at least 35 days before the official date of nomination, which would mean a minimum of at least 49 days between the date of proclamation and the date of the election. " I think, Madam Speaker, that the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, being interested as they are in the process of democ racy, are correct in the statement that I have just read.

I might say that while quite frequently I may not agree with some of the statements of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, I most assured ly do insofar as this is concerned. Dealing with the question of enumeration, I want to raise another point. I think it would be well for us to take a look at The Election Act because it appeared to me from evidence ob tained that there may have been irregularities in the constituency of Wellington, whereby a con servative candidate in that constituency had added a considerable number of names to The Election Act.

As I understand The Election Act, either the Returning Officer, the enumerator or an individual left off the list can appear before the Court of Appeal to have names added to the voters list. In the case .in question, it appeared this was done by the candidate instead and, in addition to this, the candidate wrote personal letters to the individuals concerned stating that he had done this, which appeared to me to be of a nature which could be implied intimidation. I want to briefly refer to some of the information that has been drawn to my attention re specting the constituency that I refer to.

I have before me a copy of a letter in which it is alleged -- or the letter is alleged to have been written by the candidate, the conse rvative candi date in the constituency of Wellington to the Returning Officer, which reads as follows: 11 Attached you will find a list of residents in the constituency of Wellington who were not enum erated and do not appear on the list of names added recently in the Court of Revision. We have checked each individual personally and, to the best of my knowledge, comply with the conditions of The Election Act and are eligible to vote in this area.

I have had each page sworn before a March 22nd, 1963 Page 565

(Mr. Paulley cont 1d) ••••••. Commis sioner of Oaths because of the num ber involved, and trust you will be able to give these people the right to exercise their franchise on December the 14th, 11 It appears that following the receipt of this by the Returning Officer, that this list which contained 249 names was submitted to the judge at the Court of Appeals -- or the appeal judge, At the same time, the Returning Officer, acc ording to the informa tion I have, also sub mitted a list containing 118 na mes on some yellow sheets.

Some of these nam es were the same as those submitted by the candidate I refer to, but obviously not all, because the Return ing Officer submitted 118 names and the other list contained 249, I might sa y, incidentally, Madam Speaker, that in both of the lists, both the list submitted by the candidate in Wellington and also the Returning Officer, there were 14 names appeared on both of these lists which did not reside in the constituency of Wellington, but resided in the constituency of St. Matthews.

I might say that ballot books were checked to see if these people, these 14 that were not in the constituency, voted· ; and I might sa y, Madam Speaker, that none of them did, But it appears to me that it is not proper for a candidate to submit names in this ma nner, because as I under stand it, there was no endeavour ma de to as certain from the individuals concerned, and there was no initiative on the part of the individuals to have their nam es listed until a political candi date had submitted them.

Now you might say to me -- you might say to me that isn •t it in the interest of a candidate to see that all nam es are placed on a voters list. A MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. PAULLEY: Hear, hear, With that I agree, Madam Speaker, that it is up to every candidate, or anybody who is concerned with an election to attempt to make sure that everyone is on a voters list in order that they might have an opportunity of cast ing their vote.

But I don 't think that that having been done, that it is proper for a candidate to send to a person whose name has been added to the list in the ma nner that I refer to here, a letter under the stationery of the candidate himself to the party concerned, a letter which reads as follows: "Dear Mr. and Mrs. " -- I will not mention the name, although I'm prepared to table this document -- 11We observed that your name was omitted from the voters list. We have taken the liberty of notifying the Returning Officer of the omissi on in order that you ma y have the privilege of voting on election day.

We appreciate this opportunity of being able to have been of service to you, Signed, Richard Seaborn, your Conservative candidate , "I suggest, Madam Speaker -- I suggest, Madam Speaker, that this is improper. I suggest -- I suggest that our Election Act at the present time ma kes provision as to who should add na mes to the list and who is -respon sible for thi s. I refer my friends who just said, 1 10h, no, " to the various sections of The Election Act wherein-- (Interjection) -- I beg your pardon? I didn't hear that, I had my glas ses on. A MEMBER: Ca rry on, carry on. MR .

PAULLEY: I definitely will carry on, and if it's not music to your ears, it's coming nonetheless my honourable friend, The provisions within The Election Act, Madam Speaker, states out who shall have the privilege of having names added to a voters list.

They include the Returning Officer hims elf, any enumerator who discovers an omissio n, and the individuals themselves, and nobody else, I say that this is not in accord ance with the intent of The Election Act where there is no persuasio n, even if it•s implied, by a candidate in attempting to infer to an individual that if it hadn't of been for me, the candidate, you wouldn •t have had your name listed on the list of voters entitled to vote. -- (Interjection) -- Of course my honourable friend says "Nonsense! " He has been dwelling in an atm osphere of nons ense for so long that he knows of no other phras e. MR.

LYON: During the last ten minutes, Madam Speaker. MR. PAULLEY: And if any individual -- no, I hadn't better say it, I may be called to task for being unpa rliamentary. But in being called to task for being unparliamentary, I'm sure that the great maj ority of the House would say to me: "You might have been unparliamentary, but undoubtedly you were correct, 11 MR . LYON: We've yet to know what it was. MR . PAULLEY: I•d rather not risk -- I•d rather not run the risk of the sc orn of Madam Speaker. I suggest that this portion of the Act should be looked at very very closely to see Page 566 March 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley cont1d) ••••• whether or ·not the candidate is acting properly with this method as I' ve drawn to the attention of the House. Another question which has been drawn to my attention dealing with enumeration appears to be that the en umerators do not ascertain as to the legality of a person being on a voters list.

I received a letter following the election from a friend of mine-- I'm prepared to table it-� en closing a memoranda for the voter as provided for in our Election Act, and this party states as follows: After congratulating me for my personal victory, he went on to say: 11I have been wondering about the present system of voting. I thought that a voter had to live at least six months in one polllng district and to be registered there. 11 Now in this he •s in error, of course -- "in order to have a vote.

But on November the 15th we were visited by an enumerator who gave us this form and told us to vote at the Earl Gray School. Now we have only been resident in the province since August and in this district for about three months or less I am not sure if we were here long enough to vote. However, we did not although we had several calls by the present member to vote. 11 Now the point is this particular instance, Madam Speaker, is that the enumerator did not ask, as I think they should, the person that they were attempting to put on the list as to whether or not they were qualified to vote.

I suggest that one of the reasons for this is simply because they did not have the time, or they were not aware of the provisions in The Election Act. Another violation of The Election Act which has been drawn to my attention occured in the Constituency of Fisher, wherein a Returning Officer conducted a blind voter into the polllng booth and marked his ballot. This was done over the objections of the poll clerk and this, of course, is a violation of The Election Act. In my own constituency of Radisson I have discover ed that the poll at the St.

Boniface Sanatoriumwas not conducted in accordance with The Election Act. This poll was enumerated properly and those enumerated had the right to cast their ballot as any other voter. However, all were treated as patients in hospital, and while I appreciate the efforts made to obtain votes for patients in hospital who are absent from their polllng divi sion on election day, I do not think that those who cast their ballots by way of hospital votes have the same degree of privacy as other voters.

Notwithstanding the provisions are made in the Act for secrecy, Madam Speaker, I think that it would be agreed that in many instances there is a greater possibility -- let me put it that way -- there is a greater possibility of the way in which a voter votes becomes known. Now I'm not going to dwell, Madam, on the question of the vote in Kildonan constituency to any great length because this matter may be the subject of a further appeal to the Supreme Court.

However, notwithstanding this, whether this is done or not or whether permission can be obtained for a further appeal to the Supreme Court, I do say that the question of marking ballots should be considered once again. In this particular case of Kildonan there was a clear and pronounced difference of opinion between three of the Justices of the Court of Appeal and the other two.

I think that it became evident as a result of the judgment of the Appeal Court, that we should clarify this situation as to the basic principles of the rights of an individual to cast his vote in any manner which gives a clear indication of preference to a candidate or whether or not we should still continue to have our Act containing conflicting directives to re turning officers and to voters. I was quite interested the other day to see in the Winnipeg Tribune of March 16th, under the pen of Mr. Val Werier of the Tribune, a very interesting

summary of the case of the double "X's " as viewed by the courts . I presume, Madam Speaker, that the information and the ex cerpts from the learned justices in this case are taken directly from the report of the judgment of the Court of Qu een's Bench -- the Court of Appeal, excuse me. There's one quotation, and one of these learned justices points this out. I've looked up this particular

section of the Act, and if the Act is correct and if the learned gentleman was correct, only those ballots that were cast with a double 11 X11 were valid ballots, because in our own Election Act there is a

section which says that you should place an "X" against the name of the candidate and in the square provided. Now if this doesn't mean plural, or could be read plural, then I don •t know. I note ' that one of the learned justices draws this very very concisely to the point, because Mr. Justice Freedman then points out the instructions printed on the ballot: 11Vote by placing the symbol 11 X11 in the space opposite the name of the candidate for whom you vote and after his name." I might say, in connection with this whole deal at Kildonan, I was there when the returning March 22nd, 1963 Page 567

(Mr. Paulley cont1d) ••••••• officer first opened the ballots following the receipt of the hospital votes from the chief electoral officer. I say, Madam Speaker, that before these ballots were opened there were representatives of all of the candidates, with the exception of the Social Credit candidate, in attendance . Each candidate was represe nted by another perso n as well. We looked through The Election Act and we established what at that time we considered the ground rules for the acceptance or rejection of ballots.

After due consideration and interpreta tion of the Act, it was agreed then and there by all parties concerned that any ballots which had a double 11 X11 on it would be considered as a valid ballot. Now we weren't justices -- I believe that there was one lawyer there and I presume that that might have added to the confusion, however, we did consider all aspects of it. We had a gentleman's agreement and an interpreta tion of the Act as we thought, between six or eight of us, and we came to the unanimous decision that there was a clear intention of the voter in ballots of this nature.

When the ballots were opened, after having arrived -- I must say, Madam Speaker though, that the returning officer made one reser vation. He said '' I' ll agree to this, providing there 's more than one of this type of ballot, because of the fact that if there had been just one, that it might have been an indication on the part· of a voter of him or her wanting to be rec ognized, or his ballot be recog nized later. " -- (Interjection) -'- Yes, identification. Then after the hospital votes were counted, we go into the ballot boxes and start looking over the rejected ballots that the deputy returning officer left.

I might say, Madam Speaker, that one of the first rejected ballots that came out of the box was one with a double 11X11• The returning officer put it across the table to me and he said, "Russ, what do you think of that ballot? " I took a look at it and I said, 11T h'l ground rules said that it's a valid ballot. " The ballots went around and they all agreed. There was another ba llot against my colleague, or former colleague ; a double "X" for a candidate other than my candidate; but this was the ground rtiles that we laid down and the very first ballot was an increased majority for our op position.

But beside this, Madam Speaker -- that's just a resume of what transpired at that time -- but apart from all of this and apart from any decision that has been made in respect of this; apart from the fact as to whether or not we are going to be able, ourselves, to obtain permis sion from the Court of Appeal or the agreement of the Supreme Court itself to hear an appeal in this respect; I suggest that it•s important that the committee on elections or privi leges or some other committee set up our Election Act so that there •s nci possibility of a re currence of the events in the last election.

It may be that other members of this Assembly are aware of other occurrences during the election which would support my view that this matter should be given serious consideration. I think that it is basic in our democracy that we should have our Election Act revised, where necessa ry, to make sure that the election material and machinery has ample time for the proper enumeration and conduct of an election; that the portions of the Act directing the method of choosing a candidate and the counting of ballots should be made broad enoi.Igh so that the intent of the voter should be not subject to judicial decisions.

I think that it is regrettable that there is so much apathy on the part of the voters in all spheres of government, for the election of school trustees, municipal councillors; provincial legislators and Dominion M. Ps. I sometimes wonder, Madam Speaker, whether or not it might be advisable for us to adopt a system of registration of the voter, as is done in the case I understand in the United States, or to make voting compulsory as is the case I believe in New Zealand and Australia.

I appre c iate the fact that this resolution asks that the Committee on Elections and Privileges meet to consider the' matter raised, but it may be that rather than this committee, a special committee of the House should be appointed which may have different repres entation than our own set up Committee on Elections and Privileges. In any event, Madam Speaker, I think than an opp or tunity should be given for ·a thorough review of the election machineryinthe province and that any interested perso n be given an opportunity to be heard, and I urge the acceptance of this resolution to this Assembly. MR.

COW AN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker prese nted the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Wellington. Page 568 March 22nd, 1963

MR . RICHARD SEABORN (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I may have the in dulgence of the House to let this matter stand . MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. Proposed res olution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Gladstone . MR . SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I move, sec onded by the Honourable Member for st. Boniface, that

whereas many departments termina te their fiscal year months before the opening of the Session; and

whereas most of their reports are released only during the Session; and

whereas it is extremely difficult for members to find the required time to read and study the se reports during the Session; therefore

be it resolved that this government make ready and available to all members of the House, annual departmental reports within three months of the termination of their fiscal year for those departments whose fiscal year ends on March 31. And be it further resolved that all departments , boards, commiss ioners, etc. , follow the practice of those departm ents, boards, commissions, et c. , which now furnish progress re ports covering the calendar year. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR .

SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, by reason of the fact that the res olution itself is so self-explanatory, I do not intend to speak at any great length on the res olution, and even if I did have any intention of doing that, time would not permit me to do it now. Today I understa nd is March 22nd and practical ly all of the reports that we presently have before us will be one year old in about another week. That is, mo st of the reports that we have are for the fiscal year ending March 31st last, so therefore they 're just about a year old.

I think one of the first papers that all members find in their desk on arrival here is the Legislative Assemb ly of the Province of Manitoba list of reports required by legislation. I think this one is on our desk when we first arrive, and it enum erates the various departmental reports that, acc ording to law, must be tabled and laid before the members of the House, and it's a pretty extensive list. There •s four pages of them and most of the fiscal years are from April 1st to March 31st of the next year . There are some differences.

For instance, the first one on the list, Agriculture and Cons ervation -- I suppose they •re listed alphabetically here - and it says: 11 The annual report of the manager to directo rs . The minister shall lay before the Legislative Assemb ly, if in ses sion, and if not in session, at the next ensuing ses sion, S. M. 1958; second ses sion, caption 1,

Section 19, Page 13. Now if you were to take this literally, and if we -- and there is no doubt about it, we will be sitting here after March 31st -- we then should be receiving the annu� report for the year just ended, because we will be sitting here probably until nearly May 1st. Now I don 't know how the other members of this House find it, but I find that when I come into the House here , that I have so ma ny things to do that I just sim ply cannot get around to doing them all and serving the constituents in my constituency.

I find that I work an eight hour day, and by that I mean eight hours before dinner and eight after, trying to get everything done that should be done . We have no time, or certainly I have no time to go through all of those reports, and they're not all there, Madam Speaker, and do a proper job when it comes to the estima tes. I am not suggesting that the backbenchers on the government side have any more opportunity than we do on this side, but certainly

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	936034f502d419b505ea54dfb3118699a215e180

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