VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENBRAL ASSEHBLY OF NFWFOUNDLAND PRELHHNARY UNEDITFD TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSP.MBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 ~.rn. - 6:00 o.rn. THURSDAY, APRIL 12, 1984 NO. 23

April 12, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 920 Order, please! MS. VERGE: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS Mr. Speaker. . -···-· , ____ ____ _ MJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS. VERGE"': . Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A few days ago, the report on the Task Force on Teacher Workload was submitted to the government, the Newfoundland and Labrador School Trustees' Association, formerly known as the Provincial Federation of School Boards, .anddthe Newfoundland Teachers' ·Association, which are the three parties to the teachers codlective agreement. Government and the School Trustees' Association are pleased with the major conclusions of the Task Force Report on the questions referred to the Task Force by the parties to the collective agreement.

The report confirms the position put forward by government and the School Trustees' Association during the last round of collective bargaining that substitute teachers should be paid less than regular teachers. On the questions dealing with class size, length of the instructional day for students and the work day for teachers, the report concludes that these are not appropriate matters for collective bargaining or for legislation, but should be determined by school boards in response to local conditions and circumstances.

These findings and recommendations are consistent with the positions taken by government and the Trustees' Association during the last contract negotiations. 2472

April 12, 1984 Tape No . 920 MJ- 2 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the Task Force were appointed in October, ~983 , with the concurrence of the Ne wfoun dland Teachers' Association . The members of the task force were Dr. Cyril Poole, independent Chairman chosen by the three parties; Mr. Wayne Russell, representing the Newf oundland Teachers ' Association ; and Mr . Mic hael Harrington, representing government and the School Trustees' Association.

The Task Force were asked to investigate and make recOIIUT\endations on the following five . matters: First, the length of the instructional day for students; second, the hours of ·classroom instruction for teachers; third, the length of the work day for teachers , including an examination of preparation time; fourth , class size ; and fifth, the rate of remuneration and benefit package for substitute te achers and other aspects of teacher substitution . The Task Force Report was not supported by the Newfoundland Teachers .' Association representative, who wrote a separate Minority Report. 2473

April 12, 1984 Tape 921 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: The Task Force Report states that the length of the instructional day-for pupils in this Province is among the shortest in Canada. It concludes that the present arrangement, which establishes minimum hours of instruction by legislation and provides some flexibility for school boards to adjust instruction times to respond to local~circumstances, should be retained. The Task Force examined the question of the instructional day for teachers, together with the related question of preparation time and the wider question of the assigned work day.

The assigned work day is that time when teachers are required to be in school, either teaching or engaged in non-instructional work. The Task Force found general agreement among the Newfoundland Teachers' Association, government and School Trustees' that the average assigned work day is now about a satisfactory length. Variations among boards are now within reasonable limits. It would be unwise to discontinue a policy which permits such variations in response to local conditions and circumstances. The present policy is highly desirable and is working well.

With respect to preparation time during regular school hours, understood as time free from instruction for other work, the Task Force Report recommends against stipulating a minimum preparation time for all teachers. The availability of preparation time will be governed to some degree by practical considerations such as school size, class size and the number of teachers available. Most teachers now have a reasonable amount of assigned preparation time during the school day.

The Task Force Report recommends that , where extremes do exist, the matter be discussed among teachers, school boards and government through existing liaison committees. 2474

April 12, 1984 Tape 921 PK - 2 MS. VERGE: The Task Force Report states there is no known conclusive evidence to support a positive relationship between cl .ass size and student achievement, nor any conclusive evidence as to what constitutes an ideal class size. Average class sizes in this Province compare favourably with those in other provinces. Indeed, thex:e is a higher percentage of small classes in Newfoundl.and than in any other province. Some large classes do exist; five per cent of the 41,500 classes in our schools exceed 35 students. And, Mr.

Speaker, class does not mean grade .. j A high school student may be one of 37 in an hPnour's { mathematic course,but one of only fifteen in a Theatre Arts Course and one of twe!lty-five in a Family Li:ving Course. While large class ·sizes are not undesirable in certain circumst ·ances r the size of some classes may not be necessary or appropriate. The Task Force recommends against establishing either maximum or minimum class sizes in legislation or in the collective agreement. ) 2475

April 12, 1984 Tape 922 EC - 1 MS VERGE: It suggests that problems, where they do exist, should be worked out by school boards and teachers at the local level through existing liaison mechanisms. In examining pay for substitute teachers in terms of equity with regular teachers and in comparison with pay in all other provinces, the task force report states there is no justification for paying sub­ stitute teachers at the same daily rate as regular teachers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS VERGE: The task force report recommends that there be a substantial difference between the rates of remuneration for substitute teachers and regular teachers, but left the determination of salary and benefits for sub­ stitute teachers to the collective bargaining process. In

summary, the task force report recommendations on all issues placed before the task force confirm and support the positions taken by government and the Trustees' Association during the negotiations last year. Specifically, the report agrees with our position on pay for substitute teachers and endorses the principle of maintaining flexibility for school boards to organize and administer their education systems in accordance with local conditions and local circumstances.

In the few instances where it is felt that less than reasonable working con­ ditions exist, the report recommends that the matters be dealt with through discussions at the local level. Government and school boards will continue their efforts to address these problems through existing liaison channels with teachers and with the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. It is government's hope that teachers, school boards and government can continue to co­ operate in a spirit of good will which has historically 2476

April 12, 1984 Tape 922 EC - 2 MS VERGE: existed in providing the best possible educational services for students in the schools of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR· SPEAKER (~ussell): Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! Mr. Speak.er ~ The hon. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would have to say that that kind of Ministerial Statement would have been better if it was left unsaid. What we saw today was a classic example of the arrogance of the ministers in the administration there opposite, Mr . Speaker. The hon. minister was almost gloating - .m .

SI1 ll1S: She should be. MR . NEARY: I saw the hon. gentleman. He was the only one N ~ o very weakly applauded on his desk when they mentioned substitute teachers . The hon . gentleman just could barely get his little old mitt up and lay it down on the desk. The hon . minister was almost gloating over the fact that the ta .sk force had come down on the side of the administration in certain instances. 2477

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 923 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: And, of course, the hon. minister had to play up these instances. The fact of the matter is that the teachers in recent times have been mistreated by the administration there opposite~ There has been lack of good will and lack of co-operation on the part of the administration,especially the minister, and the school boards. The heavy hand of the minister and the administration has come down to the teachers, Mr. Speaker. There has been no good will, a lack of co-operation. They have lost confidence in the minister.

Both the school boards and the NTA have completely confidence from what I' can hear, in the minister,and yet the Premier persis ·ts in allowing that particular minister to carry on in that portfolio. It is time for a shuffle, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is that on page two we have the key. It says, 'The Task Force Report was not supported by the Newfoundland Teachers' Association representative, who wrote a separate Minority Report'. Now, Mr. Speaker, that should convey a mess-age to the minister. The teachers are a powerful force in the Province.

I suppose you could not find a more significant and important group in our society today than the teachers. They take our children from the time they are four or five years· old and educate them 1 and th .ey give them their training and teach them whate-ver they know right up to the time they go through our post~secondary educational sys·tem, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the k.ey a.nd t:Jr.e . minister should ge.t the mes ·sage from that that it would be far ~etter to sit down quietly behind closed doors, talk to the s-chool :Ooards, talk to the NTA instead 2478

Apr:i:l 12, 19.84 Tape No. 923 so - 2 MR. NEARY: of looking for an excuse to make a Ministerial Statement where the minxster can get up and boast and gloat and sneer at the teachers and give them a backhanded slap,oecause that is what the minister di .d today, Mr, Speaker. We still have large classes according to the report. It says: 'Some large classes do exist and they are not desirable •·, Mr. Speaker, then the Task Force recommends that there be substantial difference oetween the rates of 2479

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 924 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: remuneration for substitute teachers. But the key there, instead of the hon. gentleman trying to get his little flipper down on the desk, Mr. Speaker, as we see from the trained seals day in and day out, what the minister should do is follow the recommendation of the task force and sit down with the NTA and negotiate the rates, negotiate, not come into the House. The minister today is negotiating it public again, Mr.

Speaker 6 I would submit that the task force report, if it is not handled properly, could do more harm than good, The __ minister's statement in the House today, the so-called ministerial statement, will do more harm than good. My.·advice to the minister, --- --·- before I take my seat, and to the administration there opposite, is to have a Cabinet shuffle and shuffle some of the ministers around. They have been there too long. They are in a rut, Mr.

Speaker, I know the Premier is thin on manpower over there but there are a few -over there he can bring in, and put that minister out before further damage is done to the educational system in this Province. MR. SPEAKER (Russell):· Order, please: Order, please: I would like to take this opportunity to welcome to the galleries today twenty-eight students from St. Stephen's High School in Stephenville with their teachers,Mr. Cyril Alexander and Mr. Vince Ryan. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the report today of the Newfoundland Electoral Districts Boundaries Commission pursuant to the Electoral 2480

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 924 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHE.IMER: Boundaries Limitation Act, 1973. The commission consisted of four members, one appointed by the Chief Juatice o£ Newfoundland, and three others appointed by the Speaker of the House of Assembly {M,r. Russell). The - -- - - . -- - Chairman was Judge Rupert Bartlett a~d the members were Mr. Rupert Short, Mr. Fintan Aylward, and Mr. F. W. Shortall. Under the act the commission is require4. to make recommendations with respect to the , boundaries of the Province's electoral districts. The commission must es .tablish a population quotient for the Province and 1 with the except ·ion of Labrador, 2481

i:-- ---'--'- - - --- April 12,1984 Tape No. 925 ah-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: the quotient may not be departed from by more than 25 per cent. The commission is required under the Act to prepare a proposed delimitation of the districts and have this proposal subject to ·)ublic scrutiny for making its final report. The commission conducted hear~ngs in ten areas of the Province from November 15,1983 to December 15 ~nd heard over ninety submissions. As a result of the hearings and submissions, twenty-two of the comrnissionts original recommendations were changed.

The commission has taken into account the submissions made to it to the effect that urban districts sho .uld have ~igher populations and rural districts lo~Ter ones and, where fea sible 1 rural districts in the Province have been allotted the lower populations. It is noted that the c0!11Rri.ssion supporte :d the concept of the present quotient variable of plus or minus 25 per cent in order to meet the principle of one person,one vote .

I am pleased to advise members of the House of Assembly that the government concurs with the report of the Commission in its entirety and I will be giving notice of motion today that the report of the commission be adopted by the House of Assembly in its entirety and without alteration. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: As hon.mernbers are probably aware 1 it is a two process system~ first a motion which is really like a concurrence motion,and then the actual legislation which gives it legislative effect. 2482

April 12,1984 Tape No. 925 MR.OTTENHEIMER: I believe that the action of the government in adopting the report fully is an historic day for the House of Assembly and the democratic process in this Province. While this is the second report of the Electoral Boundaries Comrnission1it represents the first time that such a report has been adopted without alteration. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ah-2 MR.OTTENHEIMER: Han. members will be aware that previous to 1973, of course, there was no Electoral Boundaries Commission ana it was a totally political decision where the boundaries were drawn.

In 1973 the Electoral ·Boundaries Commission was established, and its first report was adopted with a number of changes. This is the first time in the history of Newfoundland that the report of the Electoral Boundaries Commmission is to be adopted, at least from the government's motion and the government's position, that it be adopted without change. I believe that the ~mmission,which was appointed by the Chief Justice and by the Speaker, has ensured that this important task of drawing new electoral boundaries has been done fairly and impartially.

On behalf of the government I would like to thank Judge Bartlett and the members of the Commission for the excellent job they and their staff have done in performing this important and difficult task. They have clearly given this matter a great deal of time and attention and have listened to the representations of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians throughout the Province. The government, and I would think also the House of Assembly will concur in my expression of appreciation to the Commission for a job well done. And I will table 2483

April 12,1984 Tape No . 925 ah -3 MR . OTTENHEIMER : a copy of the report . It will be distributed to han . members later this afternoon. I will also table what are the original copies of the maps of the new electoral boundaries . And I repeat,which I think is the most significant part, that while this is 2484

----·--------- April 12, 1984, Tape 926, Page 1 --apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: only the second report of an Electoral Boundaries Commission, it is the first time in the history of Newfoundland that the report of an Electoral Boundaries Commission has been accepted without any alteration and that, I think, is an historic oc~asion. MR. MARSHALL: wiped out. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The Liberals are The han. the Leader of Mr.

Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is really saying is that this is the first time that the administration there opposite brought a report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission in that was not gerrymandered. The fact of the matter is that all the damage was done in the first report. And let me give the House an example of the damage that was done. The late Judge Higgins recommended in the original report, back in 1974 I think it was - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker •. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) on a point of order. MR. TULK: Getting up again, eh?

Your getting told the truth again. MR. MARSHALL: Han. gentlemen will get some satisfaction since the han. the member for Mount Scio(Mr. Barry) is out. Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is doing is he is not referring to the report or the statement of the minister, he is referring to previous reports. What the hon. minister has done is present a statement on the current report, and the han. gentlem:m in referring to past reports, to gerrymandering or joey- 2485

' .... April 12, 1984, Tape 926, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL; mandering, Mr. Speaker, is out of order. MR. SPEAKER(Russell); To that point of orde~ the Chair has a·lways maintained, I suppose, that the rule of relevancy is, at the best of times, diffic -ult to rule on. However, in respo~ding to a Ministerial Statement,! suppose the han. the Le.ader of the Opposition, or whoever, should really stick to the content of the statement that was made by the minister. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

One of the recommendations that I made to the Commis .sion, for instance, was that Bell Island be put back to the status that was recommended in the late Judge Higgins• report, and that was that Bell Island had no community of interest with the head of the Bay, 2486

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 927 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: for instancE. But Be11 Island did have a community of interest with Portugal Cove, St. Thomas and that area 1 but had no community of interest with the head of the bay, . yet the administration there opposite 1 in order to try to get rid of me at the time, gerrymandered Bell Island into the head of the bay, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they still wanted to maintain Bell Island ·as a Tory stronghold. So, Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the Commission's harids were tied behind their back, they were only allowed to make decisions based on population, they were only allowed to change boundaries using a quotient'of 25 per cent of population to get each district down to a certain population. Their hands were tied behind their backs. For instance 1they could not decide whether or not there were I too many members in the House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: :.order, please! The time allocated for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has expired. MR.

NEARY: Well, I will have a .go at it later on this afternoon, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUES'riONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question or two towards the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall). I would like to ask the han. gentleman,out on the Grand Banks where rigs are anchored and 2487

-· -- ---· April 12, 1984 Tape No. 927 MJ- 2 MR. NEARY: drilling,could the hon. gentleman tell the House how close icebergs are permitted to approach rigs before drilling is discontinued and the rig is moved off the site? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman raises a very interesting question because at the present tirne,as everybody knows,even though it is the middle of April,. the icebergs have come away from the pack ice, they are in the vicinity of the oil -drilling areas, as a matter of fact rigs have had to be removed, I think the headline in a paper this morning indicated that rigs were fleeing the oncoming icebergs,which is an apt description of it.

And the fact of the matter is that what happens is that when the rigs get in a proximity,depending upon the weather conditions,where it is deemed to be imprudent for them to be there,then they are supposed to move. But~ think, Mr. Speaker, of major concern to this Province is the fact that once again we have rigs fleeing from icebergs and we have not got the adequate protection of Seach and Rescue which we have sought over the years to have, 2488

April 12, 1984 Tape 928 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: particularly since the occurrsrnoe of the Ocean Ranger disaster. There are icebergs, Mr. Speaker, that are approaching the rigs but unfortunately there is not the adequate capacity of Search and Rescue,that is approaching the oilfields in reasonable proximity to that area. So that is a matter of real concern. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Leader of the Opposition, on a supplementary. MR. NEARY: I might point out 1 by the way, and I meant to do this in my

preamble, the reason we are asking these questions is because safety is uppermost in our minds. There is no other reason for asking the hon. gentleman these questions. We were the first to say that rigs should not drill in the Winter months. Then the han. gentleman parrotted our policy later. Well 1I say good for him. That is several policies now they have copied over there. Now the han. gentleman did not answer my question about the distance. How close is an iceberg permitted to approach a rig before drilling is dis- continued?

And the han. gentleman is probably aware that there are zones or circles recognized by the industry .::: they are circular - green, yellow and red. Could the minister tell the Hause the radius of the red zone? And what procedures are undertaken if an iceberg should penetrate into the red zone? MR. SPEAKER: · The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I think that is a matter of record that these zones are set out. As a matter of fact,most of these zones have been set out by the hon. gentleman's friends in Ottawa, who he char'rpions and he 'I('Cl!lts them :- _ ____ _____!. ,. 2489

--- . - - - ~..:.....-~"---'-'--'........___ April 12, 1984 Tape 928 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: completely in control of the offshore, and he sees nothing wrong with his friends in Ottawa being in.: control of the offshore • I am quite sure that he is so friendly with his buddies in Ottawa that he could easily get the answers from them. I am no.t immediately aware, Mr.

Speaker, of the actual distance of those zones, but those zones have been set on the basis of what is deemed to be prudent and reasonable in the circ~stances,and what is 'prudent and reasonable in the circumstances will vary and will depend upon the time of the year, the conditions, the·projected wind conditions, the wave con~tions and the existence of ice. At the present time there is a substantial amount of ice in the area that has caused concern all Winter .long. I think it is coming to-the forefront now where you have rigs that have had to flee' 'the oncoming $' i.cebergs once again.

An:d once again we see in this Province that we 2490

April 12, 1984 Ta!Je 929 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: have inadequate Search and Rescue, and I think that is a very sobering, serious and concerning factor to the people of this Province,that here you have once again. demonstrated the necessity of the removal of rigs from the elements of nature, which we cannot control. What we could control is the provision of adequate S~arch and ~escue1and that is not here in the immediate vicinity of the ice fields. I think that should be of more concern to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) than asking questions about distances.

There are these zones, certainly; I do not have the exact areas. MR. NEARY: I Well, you should know, you are the minister. MR. MARSHALL: I should know, like the han. gentleman should have known yesterday instead of asking idiotic questions about the burning of oil, you know, as to whether the IIydro burns off oil. MR. NEARY: It is not idiotic, by the way, it is happening. MR. MARSHALL: It c:rets ren.eatec:'l. in ':'he Daily :':'~e~·!s and SOI".ehm·! or other t.~ ::e:li.a b'rinks it is S01."Et.'ri.nq!

That is al:x:mt as sensible as asking if the Minister of Finance burns money or the Minister of Education burns school- books or the Minister of Public Works burns building. Yet it gets repeated with a certain amount of credence because it is asked by SO!!Ebody -bJ sarre..Jxx:".y who s.'lou.ld have no crecl.i­ bili ty 'vhatsoever in this Province, because the types of questions that he is asking now are the same types of questions he has been asking for tw·enty-fi ve years, and he cannot ask them unless they are written out by somebody to ask for him. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 2491

April 12, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 929 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman can get as rude and as nasty and as personal and as low and as slimy as he wants - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - but the fact of the matter is that the hon. gentleman is not answering the questions. He is pooh-poohing my questions the same as he did when I asked the hon. gentleman questions before the Ocean Ranger disaster took place. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is a pretty serious matter and the hon. gentleman should stop playing political games and give us straight answers. Mr. Speaker, you would expect the minister to know about these circular zones and 'l'll}at the distance is . I might point out for the benefit of the hon. gentleman that the industry has recognize~ a minimum of one mile in the red zone. Now the hon. gentleman has learned something new toda¥· Could the hon. gentleman tell the House if any icebergs have been in the red zone in recent days? If so, ~·!ere proper procedures initiated by the owners of the rigs? 2492

April 12, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russelll MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 930 SD - 1 The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, life is a matter of perception, you know. The hon. gentleman can refer to me as being slimey. If the hon. gentleman extends to me a compliment, I would consider it an insult~ if he extends to me an insult, r would cons ·ider it to be c. compliment. I may be slimey -, Mr, Speaker, . but I am not as slippery as the hon. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, the situation with respect to the ice and the offshore I think is well known.

I think it has been reported the icebergs are in the proximity of the rigs · to an extent that caus ·ed sufficient concern to order their removal. rt is something that we had warned was going to happen. r am thankful that the procedures have been taken and in place to remove them 1 but I still have a great deal of apprehension over the fact that this type of exercise is going on at th .e present time. The Canadians in Newfoundland who are working on th_ese rigs off Newfoundland are not getting the same protection as other Maritime Canadians in other parts of Canada through Search and Rescue.

The procedures, as I say, have been put in to plac~but it certainly should be a matter of real concern to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Nearyl and the members o.f the Opposition, and indeed all Newfoundlanders 1 that this· very concerning proolem with respect to Search. and Rescue has not be grappled wi ·th and we are still faced with. drilling on th.e offshore without adequate protection for the workers on the r.tgs ·, MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, is again using the red herring technique , talking about Air Search and Rescue. Air Search and Rescue would be a fat 2493

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 930 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: lot of good on a day like this in zero visibiLity. The hen. gentleman should smarten up and face reality. Mr. Speaker, the hon~ gentleman has not answered one question yet that :t put to hitrt. I asked him .how ;11any i:ceb .ergs have Been i_n the red zone in recent days and tfie han~ gez:~.tleman l'ias not answered me. So let me go on to my next guestion and ask the hon. gentleman who has -the autl:iority to determine what is · to happen when an iceberg does ent~ or penetrate the red zone,.which is a minimum of one mile radius :from the rig? Is the authority 2494

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 931 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: onshore or on the rig? And is it the captain or the tool pusher who issues the instructions, who controls the situation in the event that an iceberg enters the red zone? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: !.fr. Speaker, it is so nice to see the han. gentleman's perspective in view of life ascending to the degree it wa .s. It was only a few days ago he was in the House talking about ice cubes, now he is in the House talking about icebergs. Mr.

Speaker, as far as the situation, you know 1 I can only repeat- I mean, how can I go out and count the numbers of icebergs? I know that there are numerous icebergs out there that are causing concern and I repeat once again that that is the reason ,why the rigs have been removed from the site. And I repeat once ,again that it is a matter of extreme concern to the Province of Newfoundland,as it should be to all Newfoundlanders, that such exercises have had to be implemented and put into place without an adequate amount of Search and Rescue here.

Now the han. gentleman can say all he likes about the fog and what have you, and derogate the situation, but the only means in the event of disaster is for there to be the fullest possible capacity for response to any emergency that may happen, to have adequate helicopter support and fixed wing support either in Torbay or Argentia, which are in immediate proximity to the fields. And that unfortunately is not there. The federal government has refused to provide it and with their 2495

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 931 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: new-found jurisdiction that they have now,of course 1they can continue with this, and, you know 1their hands have been strengthened in that area. So that is the answer I have for the hon. gentleman. You know,I have not counted the icebergs. I got a report about twelve o'cloc~ this morning as to the < sitUation, that there were numbers of them breaking <MaY fran the --- -- -- pack.

At the present t.:ine there would be even greater cause for concern if _, it were not for the fact that the sea conditions are relatively moderate~ If -there were very heavy sea conditions and-high winds,there would be even greater cause for concern. I assume I dealt with the situation and answered the hon. gentleman. MR. OTTENH::';IMER: Very adequately. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman must be aware that the aircraft have just been able to fly occasionally in the last week or so, that they are grounded today.

If we had all the air rescue in the world it would not do any good today. The han. gentleman says, ~e are concerned.A Well, the han. gentleman does · not talk to anybody. Why does he not start a dialogue or negotiation or communications with COGLA or with the federal people to try to get this matter straightened out 1 rather than stand over there day in and day out and play political games with this offshore matter, 2496

April 12, 1984, Tape 932, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: especially the safety of our workers? Now, Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman aware of an incident involving Sedco 706 at 2:30 Monday morning when an iceberg entered the red zone dangerously close to the rig but was undetected by anyone and only through good luck on the part of an ice observer on board the rig was the iceberg -detected in time to avert a disaster? Is the han. gentleman aware of that? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: First of all, Mr. Speaker, why do we not start a dialogue?

Now let us put this before the House once again. The han. gentleman knows from the last time that the Province of Newfoundland took an order with respect to the cessation of Winter drilling, we wrote to Mr. Chretien, the federal minister responsible, and indicated and pointed out to him in documentary form the need for improved Search and Fescue. He talks about dialogue. We do not have a response, Mr. Speaker, to that letter yet. The only thing we have gotte~ is a statement made by Mr.

Chretien in reply to a question in the House of Commons to the effect - I thought it was a very cynical answer - 'Well, people do not need to go out ... to sea if . they do not have to.' That was the response which we received. Now, the fact of the matter is , and the han. gentleman should know this because he exults in it from time to time, but it so happens that at the present tLffie the Province of Newfoundland has ln the narrow legal sense, no control with respect to the offshore. Has the han. gentleman - MR. NEARY: What an admission! What an admission! 2497

April 12, 1984, Tape 932, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: - who exults and supports the federal government's trampling on the rights of this Province, if they take over the resource that we brought into Confederation with us, can I ask the hon. gentleman if he has addressed this question to the Minister of Energy for Canada(Mr. Chretien)? Has he addressed it to COGLA? Has he approached COGLA and asked COGLA what COGLA is doing with respect to these things?

The hon. gentleman cannot have it two ways; he cannot have it on the one hand coming in here and jumping up and down with great joy, slavering at the mouth over the fact that the Province of Newfoundland has, in his impression, lost control of her resource that we undoubtedly brought into Confederation with us, and at the same time question the Province as to what it is doing with respect to the thing. I mean, that is a real schizophrenic attitude if I have ever heard of one in my life. Now, the fact of the 2498

April 12,1984 Tape No. 933 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: matter is the han. gentleman comes into this House from time to time and he repeats stories that he has heard, like he did yesterday with respect to Hydro out in Holyrood supposed to be buring oil- MR.NEARY: wnich is true. MR.MARSHALL: I mean,how nonsensical~ in order to make room in the tank for the ships to come in to fill it up. I mean,it is absolutely incredible. As I say,it is like saying to the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins), Did you burn the dollars that were down in the safe to make room for the new tax dollars?

Or to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge)' · Did you burn the schoolbooks to make room? MR.NEARY: Is this in order, Mr. Speaker? MR. MARSHALL: I mean 1it is absolutely silly. He comes into this House, Mr. Speaker, and he repeats rumours and telephone calls that he heard of and Open Line programmes and all the rest of it, you know, without any substantiation. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, in response to his question, I think I have answered it fully. He asked for a dialogue~ the dialogue is there and that . is the answer we got.

The fact of the matter is that he cannot have it two ways, one day getting up and exulting that the people of Newfoundland have lost their birth- right, - not lost, it has been taken aw·ay from them, that is the v1ay I would style it - and at the same time ask . us what we are g0ing to do about it. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): The han. Leader of the Opposition 1 a supplementary. 2499

April 12,1984 Tape No. 933 ah-2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is concern, the han. gentleman up playing political games again, squirting venom,with his snake-like tongue,across the House, Mr. Speaker. In actual fact,if the han. gentleman wants the answer,I have a paper here, a statement that was made on April 5· here in St.John's by the Han. Jean Chretien and it would be worth the han. gentleman's time to read it. You could not find a more generous offer and you would have to ask yourself a question after you read it: What else is it that the Premier wants that is not in this statement? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR.SPEAKER (RUssell): Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) has entered into a debate on this particular issue and I would request that he direct a question. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the han. gentleman that it is not rumour or propaganda, that I happened to talk today to the ice observer who detected that iceberg 1 and it was only through good luck , Mr. Speaker, that it was detected. Is the han. gentleman aware that it was 2:30 a.m. in the morning, that there was zero visibility and hundreds of icebergs in the area at the time., and nobo.dy - knew who was in charge?

Mobil have their own surveillance, Husky-Bow· Valley have their own surveillance - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Question! Question! t.ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition has again entered into debate and I would ask him to direct a question. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what I am asking the han. gentleman to tell the House is how is 2500

April 12,1984 Tape No. 933 ah-3 MR.NEARY: it that this iceberg slipped in so dangerously close to SEOCO 706 without being detected? And would the hon. gentleman also tell the House why 2501

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 934 MJ- 1 MR. NEARY: these three companies, Husky-Bow Valley, Mobil Oil and. Petro Canada 1will not combine their efforts, co-ordinate their efforts in the safety of people who work on these rigs offshore? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon, the President of the Council. MR. ~HALL: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. gentleman wants to ask that, why does he no·t ask COGLA, Canada Oil and Gas Lands Authority or ask Mr. Chretien or what have you? As to the first part of his question, what more generQUB offer does the Premier or the government want from Mr. Chretien, 'What does he want', he said.

Well, what the Premier wants·· and what the government wants is equal treatment for Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. ME~'!BERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL : Let the young Newfoundlanders of this Province get a chance to get an earned income equal to the average of young Canadians in other parts of Canada, for us the right- to: have equal management of our resources, Mr. Speaker, not to be taken over and be like a colony or fiefdomt or a municipality or what have you. The hon. gentleman gets up and he champions everything, even the taking away of the resources from the Province of Newfoundland.

Well,when he wants to do that, in response to the second part of his question, Mr. Speaker, let him ask COGLA or his friend, Mr. Chretien, he accepts every word he says anyway 1 and I am quite sure he will get an adequate response from him. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, again I have to draw to the House's attention that I did not get an answer from 2502

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 934 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: the bon. gentleman about .the danger offshore, about the safety of the workers on the rigs offshore. The han. gentleman gets up and plays political games. Mr. Speaker, is the han. gentleman aware - if he wants to play political games let ~e ask him this - is he aware that the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien), at a news conference in St. ,Tohn 1 s only a week or ten days ago, said that the offer was ·so generous that Newfoundland would be second only to Alberta. We would be the second richest province in the whole of Canada.

Now 1what else does the Pre~ier want? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! I would point out to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that on page 129 of Beauchesne it states very clearly that: "The purpose of a question is to obtain information and not to supply it". SOME HON. MEMBE -RS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Well, ~tt. Speaker, somebody has to supply them with the information. I asked the han. gentleman if he was aware of it, ~tt. Speaker.

There are a. lot of other things in here that the han. gentleman should be aware of because tlie people of Newfoundland are going to made aware of it and then the y will want to know, 1 Well, '\'7hat is it the Premier wants? What does he want?' I mean it is all here. The han. gentleman only wants to puff up his ego ·, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would ask the han. the Leader of the Opposition to direct a question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have to come back to SEDCO 706. 2503

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 935 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I want to ask the han. gentleman again~ there are three companies with three different surveillance set-ups. Is'it possible for them to combine their effort in a unified .way so that they can co-Qrdinate their efforts and, Mr. Speaker, in so doing exchange information, if they are not already doing it, that will guarantee the safety of the workers on these rigs offshore? And could the hon. gentleman also tell us, Mr. Speaker - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Get it from your buddies in Ottawa. - ·perhaps the hon. gentleman does not know.

If he does not know,he should get up and say, "Look, I will take the question under advisement and get the information, ." How is it, that an iceberg penetrated the red zone, got dangerously close to SEDCO 706, and just by luck was detected by the ice observer onboard the rig? And when it was detected, then what procedures were followed? Were the proper procedures followed or was there chaos in the area, that nobody knew what they were doing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, why does he not ask the people who are responsible, whcmhe champions? Why does he not ask COGLA?

They will not even give us, Mr. Speaker, an advisory role with respect tn it. So I suggest he ask the people whom he championed and he champions at every corner "to trample on the rights of the Province of Newfoundland. 2504

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 935 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, look, did you notice with humour, did you see the hon. gentleman, I mean he is such- am I allowed to say it?- he is such a handmaiden of Ottawa that he cannot get up and repeat from memory what Mr. Chretien said for fear he might misquote him and he might be disciplined 1so he has to get up and say - MR. NEARY: take it and read it. MR. MARSHALL: You should read it. You should - 'Did you see what Mr. Chretien says?' . and he has it written d·own on paper, - MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: he starts to repeat it. I have his statement. a mouthpiece for Mr.

Chretien, and So, you know, what does Mr. Chretien say about the ice business? What concern has Mr. Chretien got? Mr. Chretien is 1,700 miles away at the present time, Does Mr. Chretien know how many icebergs are out there or what has happened? And when he talks about what the Federal Minister of Energ~ (Mr. Chretien) says, imagine - MR. NEARY: The only ice you know about is the ice pubes that fly across from the other side of the House. MR. MARSHALL: - imagine, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman getting up and asking, "Are you aware ~· with bated breat~'what Mr. Chretien said" - MR. NEARY: You should be. MR.

MARSHALL: .,.. "that this is so generous for the people of Newfoundland that you would be second only to Alberta." MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we want to be second only to Alberta. That is all we want. Because we want to be average Canadians and the Albertans are at the top of 2505

·- .. -· ... -··--- ---- April 12, 1984 Tape No. 935 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: the ladder. All we want to do is to get halfway there. But we are not allowed to be halfway there because Mr . Chretien and otb,ers have us by b'1e neck and is pushing us underneath the water at every turn. 2506

April 12, 1984 MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: the big lie. MR. MARSHALL: Tape 936 PK - 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, is he aware - That is the big lie again, Since we are talking about awareness, is he aware of the socio-economic review or the Venture Development Project done by COGLA, Mr.

Chretien's outfit,andthe Province of Nova Scotia where, on page 18, it says, "The Province could gain incremental revenues only: however, as a first approximation, and in the absence of any definitive statement from the consultants, it is reasonable to assume that the net impact of the project on the province's revenues is small to negligible"? Is the han. gentleman aware, Mr. Speaker, that that .. is what Mr. Chretien has offered us, what he continues to offer us, small and negligible benefits for the Province? MR. NEARY: take this and read it. PREMIER PECKFORD: have there? MR. NEARY: That is not true.

You should Is that the agreement you The Premier has not seen it. If he saw it, he would hot be making his trip. MR. MARSHALL: And, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentlemen opposite, the same party which gave away the Upper Churchill, the same people who are nothing but lowdown toadies and they show it every time they get up and repeat, Ottawa's messages across the House, would be prepared to accept it. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Not true! Political games! Hear, hear! They might be prepared to consign this Province to small or negligible benefits from our resources, but this party is not, Mr.

Speaker, and this party will never do s0. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2507

April 12, 1984 Tape 936 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now what I suggest is that the han. gentleman has got the regime that he supported, he has got the federal government now through their Supreme Court which has said that they own the resource. MR. NEARY: It is not 'their' Supreme Court. MR. MARSHALL: Ana· I suggest what the han. gentleman should do is go ask these questions to the people who he wanted to have this control in the first place. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please·! MR. BARRY: referred to the socio-economic study of the Venture gas field, and I believe this is on the same page that he quoted. There is an assumption there made with respect to a dollar fo~.dollar loss on equalization. The statement made by Mr. Chretien, to which my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) alluded, refers to the fact that there is a spec~al agreement bn equalization. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: please? MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Mr. Chretien referred to a 2508 Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, may I "have silence, Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the statement from

-· ·--- --- - - April 12, 1984 Tape 937 EC ~ 1 MR. BARRY: special agreement with Nova Scotia on equalization. I would like to ask the Minister res ponsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) if he is aware of the contents of that and whether he has a copy of that agreement. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any little side agreement. Wonders never cease, you know! Everybody in this world, I suppose, has to seek his own opportunity but, Mr.

Speaker, when opportunists speak, like the han. gentleman, how different the han. gentleman is in his new-found role in the Opposition from when he was over here. PREMIER PECKFORD: a good agreement now. MR. MARSHALL: The Nova Scotian agreement is The Nova Scotian agreement is a good agreement and the han. gentleman is tr.urrnettincr it. Jo!R. TULI~: MR. MARSHALL: based on equalization SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: You are changing colours now! He knows, ~1r. Speaker, it is Oh, oh!

Order, please! - and what we are invited to do is to replace our equalization payments from the revenues from the resources that we brought into Confederation. SOME HON. ME~BERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: !'."1.. ! !A ""<.SriALL : Order, please! That study ha~ ~ ened to be, !l!r . SIJeaker, a t1·1o crovern:n .ent study . :!:t ir; really sad to see the poor HR. BARRY: You :::ean you do not knm ·; vet ~·1hy Nova Scotia sirrneC..? MR. ~..ARSHALL : c·7e knm·r that the Nova Scotia ac::rreement 2509

April 12, 1984 Tape 937 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: applied here would mean next to nothing for this Province, absolutely next to nothing! We would replace our equalization payments and 1·1e '1-~uld have no joint management, Mr. Speaker. l'-S I said, it is sad to see how far down an opportunist can sink when he wants to further his own ends at the expense of the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Mount Scio. ~·":.:'1.. BARP..Y: !-tr. Speaker, I muld like to rrake sure I have this straight now.

S01m UO:tl. !zr~ERS: Hear, ~ear ! 1m. NEAP..Y: ':'he seals are at it a~ain. - -· ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it has been my experience in the House of Assembly that the louder the noise from the other side, the more you know you are getting to the quick. sm.m HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Now, if I understand the Minister responsibie for Energy (Mr.

Marshall), the Minister responsible for Energy for Newfoundland, after months of criticizing the Nova Scotian agreement, months of the Premier criticizing the Nova Scotian agreement, am I correct in understanding the minister that he does not know yet what the agreement with Nova Scotia is despite this criticism? Am I correct in the minister stating that he does know what this special arrangement is with equalization? Am I correct that he has not taken the time to write the federal minister since he 2510

April 12, 19.84 Tape No. 938 SD - 1 MR. BARRY· made that statement referring to the special arrangement and equalization, he has not taken the time to ask the federal minister what was offered to Nova Scotia? Is that what the minister is telling us? MR. SPEAI<ER (RUsselll: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. What was offered to Nova Scotia is adequately dealt with in this study - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MARSHALL: - not done by this government but done by the Province of Nova Scotia, Mr. Speaker, and the government of Canada. . SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: ' MR.

MARSHALL: Oh, oh • Order, please: · Now is the hon. gentleman not aware of this particular study? Or is it because he skittered over to the other side because he would not take the responsibility of negotiating an agreement - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: - and he skittered over to the other side because he did not happen to like the Premier , that he is forgetting the realities of life? Because the reality of life is that this is a study,not by the Government of Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, but by the federal government and the Province of Nova Scotia, that says ther~ are small to negligible benefits. The hon. gentleman might do it in his mad quest for leadership of the Liberal Party, but the hon. gentleman is a man who one week was going to run for the Tories in Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador and the next thing finds himself over there, and so, Mr.

Speaker, I am hardly going to be pursuaded by an erratic individual like the hon. gentleman has demonstrated himself to be when I have a report that was done by the federal government and the Province of Nova Scotia in my possession that says, 'There 2 511

April 12, 19..84 MR. MARSHALL: SOME ' .EIDN. MEMBERS : MR •. SPEAKER (Russelll: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 938 SD - 2 is small to negligible benefits'. Hear, hear. Order, please~ Time for Question Period has expired. NOTTCES OF MOTION The han. Minister of Justice. Pursuant to

Section 21 of the Electora.l Boundaries Delimitation 'Act, 1973, I give notice that r w~ll on tomorrowmove that the recommendations of the Newfoundland Electoral Districts Boundaries Cornmiss ·ion contained in the Report of the Commission tabled in the House of Assembly on April 12, 19.84, be approved in its entirety and without alteration. · MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. DINN: The han. Minister of Labour Mr.

Speaker, r give notice that I will on tomorrow ·CfS'k leave to introduce the following bills, "An Act To Govern Collective Bargaining Between The Government Of The Province And Interns And Residents In the Province", and, "An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act" ', so that the member for Mount Scio [Mr. Barryl can protect himself. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture,. Recreation and Youth. MR. SrMMS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting The Preservation Of The Historic Resources Of The Province" . MR. SPEAKER: MS.

VERGE: The han. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow as-k leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Education (Teachers Pension) Act". 2512

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 938 so -3 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS' FOR WHTCH NOTICE. HAS BEEN GIVEN MR, SPEAXER (RUs-selli: MR. MARSHAI.r. : The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, there is a question on the Order Paper, actually it is today, Mr. Speaker, in the name of the hen. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barryl, Question No. 4 8 , •· To lay upon the table of the Irouse Newfoundland Hydro's and the Attorney General•s of Newfoundland submission of Octo:berf 1983 to the National Energy Board in reply to Hydro~Que:Oec •s application to sell. hydro power to the United States~. I presume, Mr.

Speaker, that is as-lted because the han. gentleman c.ontends that nobody can advance the legal argument of it other than himself. But, Mr. sPeaker, that S'Ubmiss-ion in d.etail was· filed with the National Energy Board and I just refe.r 2513

April 12, 1984, Tape 939, Page l -- apb MR. MARSHALL: the hon. gentleman to that and I am sure his new-found friends in Ottawa, if the National Energy Board will not give it to him, will supply him with a full and detailed copy. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, this is the answer to question No. 16 on the Order Paper dated the 26th. of March asked by the hon. the member for LaPoile, 'To list all reports and studies commissioned since 1980 by the Workers' Compensation Board.' Answer: There was a systems and procedures study - MR. NEARY: I had that one. MR.

DOYLE: You got it again now. MR. DINN: did that. - Management House Limited We had a data processing one done by Doane and Raymond which concluded that we should do our own data pnxessing in house and - MR. SIMMS: I remember it well. MR. DINN: - we have confirmed that; and the Baie Vert dust study, done by Dr. ijarry Edstrom. MR. SIMMS: That is all he wanted, a list of them? MR. DINN: anyway. MR. SPEAKER: Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: He will not read them, The hon. the I•1inister of A few days ago, Mr. Speaker, the han. the member for Torngat Mountains(Mr.

Warren), it will be recalled, asked a question with respect to an enquiry resulting from three tragic deaths which recently occurred at Hopedale. I replied at the time that in all likelihood there would be such an enquiry but until a full report had been received that it would not be 2514

April 12, 1984, Tape 939, Page 2 --apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: appropriate to give a definitive answer to that. I am in a position now to say that under the

Summary Jurisdiction Act there will be a Provincial Court enquiry into the three deaths in Ho.pedale, and matters related thereto, and that the enquiry will be conducted by the Chief Judge of the Provincial Court, His Honour Clement Scott. MR. SPEAKER(Russell}: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I indicated yesterday that on one of his rare visits to the House the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle(Mr. Roberts) asked a question, and in his absence today I would like to give that information.

He asked about the additional sp~ce we acquired for the Petroleum Directorate at Atlantic Place. By the authority of an M-C we acquired 6,200 square feet adjoining the area presently leased by the Petroleum Directorate. The rental is $18.00 a square fo.ot annually for a three year period. The owner is responsible for fitting up the area. The member also asked if the Petroleum Directorate would move to new offices in the Confederation Building EXtension. It will not, Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister responsible for Communications. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of approximately, or I should sav exactly 2, 386-people of Bell Island who wish to voice their concerns with respect to the recent rate increases on the Bell Island ferry service. I had occasion, Mr. Speaker, over the last couple of days to attend a public meeting on Bell Island at which this 2515

J11 April 12, 1984, Tape 939, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOYLE: particular petition was presented to me by the Bell Island Commuters' Committee, and the Resource Development Coiill!littee, and the Wabana town council, as well as several other concerned citizens groups. As colleagues on both side of the House are probably already aware, Mr. Speaker, the Bell Island ferry service has been an issue of ongoing concern to me in particular over the last five year period, and to government in general for a much, much longer period of time. So I think it might be appropriate, Mr.

Speaker, and I think it might be advisable to provide the House with some general background knowledge with respect to this issue and also to provide some indication of the i.mportance,the very, very grave importance of·this transportation link 2516

-· April 12, 1984 Tape No. 940 MJ - 1 MR. DOYLE: to my constituents in that particular part of the district. I remember, Mr. Speaker, quite vividly back in 1979,when I was first elected to the House,that the first issue I was faced with, that begged resolution at the time,was to try and inject some measure of efficiency and some degree of stability into what was a somewhat inadequate ferry service. I had at the time, }~r.

Speaker, absolutely no illusions as to what a tall order it would be in very, very difficult economic times to implement any type of a service that would come even moderately close to adequately and efficiently serving the people of Bell Island. It was fairly obvious, Mr.

Speaker, to even the most inexperienced of observers that what government should immediately do at that particular point in time was to place a second vessel in,service, to help alleviate in some way the long traffic back-ups and line-ups that left the travelling public on Bell Island very often \Y"ai ting in line in Portugal Cove or over on the Bell Island side for hours before finally reaching home. After all, Mr. Speaker, the two boat operation between Portugal rove and Bell Island was working at that time for just a five week period and clearly what was ne~ded was a two boat operation for a nine month period.

So I am very pleased to be able to stand here today and say that in that five year period we have made some progress, we have been able to - the various committees on Bell Island along with myself and the town council and Commuters'Committee and every other committee who was involved - we have been able to convince two Ministers of Transportation and the rest of my Cabinet colleagues as well of the necessit y of establishing an efficient two-boat operation for Bell Island that would serve them for a longer per.:j.od of time. 1;-Je have done that for a nine month period this year and I am very pleased and proud of that accomplishment. 2517

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 940 MJ- 2 MR. DOYLE: So -it is gratifying, Mr. Speaker, that government did listen to the people of Bell Island in the representations that they had to make at that time and we have taken action on that particular part of this issue that needed resolution. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe),I should point out at this point in 'time, as well, although he is not here today to hear me say it, NaS very firm in his resolve at the ·time as well, Mr.

Speaker, to convince government of the necessity of establishing a good system of transportation that would serve the people of Bell Island, In particular we have injected approximately $220,000 into tn±s year's budget to allow for about an extra four month period thereby expanding the two-boat operation to approximately nine months,and I guess I owe the Minister of Transportation a debt of gratitude for that. However, to be a little more specific to the matter at hand, Mr.

Speaker, the people of Bell Island have indicated in this petition, 2,386 names, that they would like to have some further dialogue with the Minister of Transportation on this matter. 2518

April 12,1984 Tape No. 941 ah-1 MR. DOYLE: I purposely avoided, incidentally, presenting this petition yesterday because the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Dawe) was not present in the House. He had to go out of town to a funeral the funeral of a very dear friend. I did not want to present it today,either,because the minister is not present and he had urgent public business to be on, Mr. Speaker, and ·I am sure that he would have liked to be here to speak on this petition as well rut at the public meeting that I attended on Bell Island, Mr.

Speaker, I indicated that I would bring in this petition in which the people of Bell Island have indicated that they are not satisfied with the recent .rate increase. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! I would like to advise the han. member that the five minutes allocated has elapsed and he cannot continue except by leave. Does the han. member have leave to continue? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Yes. MR.SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. DOYLE: As I said, Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Transportation were here today while I am presenting this petition,! am sure that he would have been quite happy indeed to speak to this petition and to respond to th~ issue. At the public meeting I indicated that I would bring this request before the House of Assembly, before the Minister of Transportation through this petition and that I would,insofar as it is possible,pursue further dialogue with the Minister of Transportation on this matter because the ?eople of Bell Island have indicated that they do want me to pursue this matter. MR.NEARY: Where is the minister? 2519

April 12,1984 Tape No. 941 ah-2 MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, you know, if the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) had been as· anxious to help the people of Bell Island as I have been over the last five years,he would not be interrupting me now. And he knows every single word that he utters is eating into the time that I have to present this petition. MR.NEARY: Take all the time you want. MR. DOYLE: So , Mr. Speaker , the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Dawe) will be quite happy to speak to this petition when he gets back in the House of Assembly.

In the meantime,as I said before I was rudely interrupted, this petition indicates that the people of Bell Island would like for me to open up further dialogue with the Minister of Transportation. ! had occasion,as a matter of fact over the last couple of days 1to speak with the minister for a couple of hours on the issue and we are going to have further meetings on the matter and I will be getting back to my constituents on that matter. As I indicated previously , Mr.

Speaker, this is a particularly sensitive issue to 'the people of Bell Island who feel quite strongly that their ferry operation is different than most ferry operations in that it is used far more frequently,in excess of the frequency with which other services are used,and as a result they feel that their particular petition or their service should not be lumped in with other services. Now, Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition: "Be it resolved that government initiate action on behalf of these people to roll back the increased rates to the level that was in 2520

April 12,1984 Tape No . 941 ah -3 MR . DOYLE: place before April 1,1984 1 and,in addition ,to open discussions with the citizens of Bell Island on the matter and obtain their views ." So I will be speaking to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) on the issue when he gets back in St. John's. I would like now, Mr. Speaker, to place this petition upon the table of the Bouse and to refer it to the department to which it relates . MR .SPEAKER (Russell): The hon . Leader of the Opposition . 25 21

... April 12, 1984 Tape No. 942 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition just presented by the hon. gentleman on behalf of 2,386 of my fellow Bell Islanders. Now, Mr. Speaker, first of all I have to say that it was noticeable that the hon. gentleman did not say whether he was supporting the petition. When you present a petition in this House you have to state whether or not you support the petition. Mr. Speaker, what kind of mind, or what kind of mentality must the Premier and his administration have to force persons who live on Bell Island to pay higher ferry rates?

Is it simply because they live on an island that they are going to be punished and penalized? Mr Speaker, the cost of living will increase for these people 7 :·· who live on Bell Island, the cost will in~, for those people who commute back and forth to work every day between the loc~l mainland and Bell Island. They will be discouraged, Mr. Speaker, from continuing to work; ~sidents of the island will be discouraged fran finding jobs. '!here will be f~r visitors to and from Bell Island and the local mainland.

Less people will' visit the island,for instance, during the tourist season after these rate increases go into effect. Mr. Speaker, the ferry service between Bell Island and Portugal Cove is the lifeline for the people of Bell Island. And if this administration had set about deliberately to destroy the socio-economic fabric of the good people of Bell Island they could not have picked a better way to crucify them. Medical services will suffer, Mr. Speaker. People will postpone going to see the doctors and specialists here in St. John's because it 2522

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 942 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: will cost more. Family travel will virtually end and families will not be able to travel together as they do here on the local mainland. You will have two classes of people. We , hear the han. the Premier day in and day out, inside this House and outside the House, talking about equal status. Well, Mr. Speaker, Bell Islanders will have unequal status if these rates are allowed to be put into effect. The decision by this administration there opposite can only bring misery and pain and suffering to the people of Bell Island, Mr.

Speaker, who are already reeling from lack of attention in the past several years by this administration . Mr. Speaker, han. gentlemen must realize by now, and certainly if they do not know it by now they learned this afternoon, that the gerry­ mandering of Harbour Main-Bell Island district in 1974 was done to isolate Bell Island, because , while they did not want to have to deal with the many problems of the people there, ~y 'still wanted to get enough votes in other places to keep the district within the PC fold. Mr.

Speaker, this matter is so important to Bell Islanders that the member who presented the petition should be willing - and I hope the han. gentleman is listening to me - it is so important to the people of Bell Island, it is life and death as far as the people of Bell Island are concerned. It is so important that the member who just presented the petition should be willing to put his seat on the line, and if his coll~aque the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) re~s to roll back the rates then the han. gentleman should be prepared to pass in his resignation , 2523 --

April 12, 1984 Tape No . 942 NM - 3· MR . NEARY: and say, "I can no longer associate myself with this administration." If the hon. gentleman supports the prayer of the petition, he must be prepared to go all the way in fighting any increase in rq:tes, even if it means resigning his seat in protest, Mr . Speaker . MR. DOYLE: MR . NEARY: I am running for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, as far as I can s ee, as a former Bell Islander, no one will benefit from this move except the Minister of Transportation ' s ego and the Premier sadistic ,desire to have the people of Bell Island and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador pay for his mismanagement of the public purse in the last four or five years. I strongly condemn the inc::reases without qualification, Mr. Speaker, and I support the prayer of this petition . 2524

April 12, 1984 Tape 943 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister rof Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) for so eloquently reading the speech written for him by Mr. Kennedy. MR. DOYLE : 1\ Kennedy special. , .. MR. DINN: A Kennedy special speech today, yes· Not John F.; David. . _,_. MR. NEARY: \ Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. - -· ---- -'"' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman will recall that his colleague to his right was referring to notes.

I have notes here in my own handwriting, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: Very sensitive. MR. NEARY: I would gladly present them to the han. gentleman only I am scared that if I got too close that I might have to do something else. But here are my notes, my handwriting. And, Mr. Speaker, that scummy kind of remark from the han. gentleman should not be allowed to stand on the public record of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Sometimes it might be a little difficult for the Chair to rule whether a term used is unparliamentary.

Certainly sometimes terms are used and things are said that certainly do not add much to the stature of this Legislature, and I fear that the word 'scum' certainly does not add much to the stature of this Legislature. MR. NEARY: Well 1what about the point of order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: A difference of opinion between two hon. members. 2525

April 12, 1984 Tape 943 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Obviously a difference of opinion, Mr. Speaker. I would like to speak to the petition so ably presented by my colleague, the member for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) on behalf of 2,386 residents of his district.

And I want to also say that over the past few years that I have known the hon. member 1 I guess every Cabinet colleague he has knows of the problems that the people on Bell Island have had with respect to the ferry service, and we know ~t because it is almost a weekly issue with respect to us bringing it to our attention ~ and the fact that he wants so badly to get the service Jr improved. I want to say that the hon. member has done a yeoman task in that quest. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DINN: Whilst we realize that the government did announce a rate .increase,we cannot forget the situation that the Province is in financially. In _.' fact 1 we are working very diligently in an attempt to get a good offshore agreement so that we can make sure that we can look after many of the problems of the people on Bell Island. Now, Mr. Speaker, I was with my colleague on the Island,about a couple of months ago,with a special committee of Cabinet to listen to briefs presented by the people over there on different issues on the Island.

One of the issues,of course,was the ferry system and the ·-·'-·---- fact that they needed -improvements. I am sure that the people on Bell Island appreciate the fact that over the short period 2526

April 12, 1984 Tape 943 PK - 3 MR. DINN: that my colleague has represented them that he has improved the ferry service over there _substantially, that we do have a two-boat ferry system on the Island now not for five weeks, but something like nine months,! believe. And I can say that the members ~ - of the Commuters' Committee, the Town Council, the people on Bell Island, I am sure are very concerned about any rate increase as we all are with respect to just about anything.

But I can also say this ; there is no member whom , I am aware of who has a ferry system in this Province who .. speaks so J eloquently about the ferry systems and the needs for improvement on Bell Island as my hon. coileague representing Harbour Main- • Bell Island (Mr. Doyle). MR. NEARY i The hon. member has not said one word in this House, not a word about Bell Island. MR. DINN : Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) , continues to interrupt and break the rules of the House.

Now .-he claimed 1 when I stood on my feet .to speak to this petition, he claimed that I broke the rules • ~Your Honour obviously told him that he was out of order, that I was not. Mr. Speaker, there is no fear of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition doing anything for the people of Bell Island. When he had a~ opportunity 2527 } ..

April 12, 1984 Tape 944 EC - 1 MR. DINN: to represent them since 1975, he ran off to LaPoile, that is what happened to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). He is not speaking on behalf of the people of Bell Island anymore. And the hon. member who is speaking on behalf of the people of Bell Islanc (Mr. Doyle), is doing a very good job on behalf of those people. I can say without fear of contradiction by any of my colleagues in Cabinet or in caucus that the hon. member does a very good job.

As a matter of fact, when I visited Bell Island with my colleague, there were many groups who came in and pre­ sented their views as to what the hon. member l·IR. DOYLE : Briefs. MR. DINN: - briefs as to what the hon. member should be attempting over the next short while, and I am sure the hon. member will do his best in pro­ viding what they request. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : expired. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: the Resource Committee. Hermitage. Thank you, Mr. ~ Speaker. Order, please! The hon. Minister's time has ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 3. Order 3, Concurrence Debate on .

The hon. the member for Fortune - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STEWaRT: Mr. Speaker, in introducing the Resource sector of the budget, I would first of all like to thank the Committee members, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), the member for conception Bay South (Mr. Butt), the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) - 2528

April 12, 1984 Tape 944 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, !Jlease! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR . NEARY: We were told by the Government House Leader yesterday that the item corning up today was the Social Services estimates. ~~R •. STE!·TZ\RT: No, you were not. You were not listening. MR. NEARY: I was listening, Mr. Speaker. H?.. STE1'7A~T: You were not listening. MR. NEARY: I wrote down what the hon. gentleman said. MR. RIDEOUT: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR.

RIDEOUT: I was here at the time and we discussed it before the House closed. ~: 1e I!ouse ~-!as told, and I think the record will show if the tapes were still running at that time, that the House was advised that we would do the Concurrence motion today on the Resource Committee. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Whatever was mentioned yesterday as to what might be done toda~ ~ - of _,_course, the Cl!air can only rule on what Has called on Order -s of t.'J.e --- --- Day, and '1-Jhat ':las called ~·las the Resource Committee. The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR.

STEWART: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2529

. ~· .... ·~-·~ _:.....:..... ........ -· -· ......... ~ April 12, 1984 Tape 944 EC - 3 MR. STEWART: I would like to repeat myself in saying that I would like to thank the members of the Committee, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt), the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) , the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Bar;ry) and the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). I would also, Mr. Speaker, like to thank the ministers and their officials for attending and supplying the Committee with such a great amount of valuable info~tion.

The Committee system has >•rorked well and did work well again this year, but it was very disappointing that one or b .ro me.'!' .hers of t:1e Op!,>Osi tion tried to scuttle all the meetings of the Resource comMittee. Government went along, again this year, with the recommendation of the Opposition that we only have one Committee sitting at aay given time. Mr. speaker, usually only one member from the Opposition attended these sittings, which was very disappointing indeed. 2530

April 12, 19.84 Tape No. 945 SD - l MR. STEWART Mr. Speaker, r: would like to make a few comments on each of the resource departments that came up under our Committee. The ftrst one we dealt with was the Department of Mines and Energy and again, because of the amount of information that was supplied to the Committee , r· will have to refer to certain notes in order to get the facts and figures right. The Department of Mines and Energy is divided into two sections,with the hon. Ron Dawe responsible for Mines and Energy Conservation and the hon.

William Marshall re~onsible for Newfoundland and Labrador :S:ydro and the Petroleum Directorate. 'I'h.e minister, Mr •. Dawe, pointed out i·t is only now- that metal prices are. beginning to show signs of rising from the low­ levels· reached during 1982 and 19..83 and our mineral industry is responding now positively. There were further employment and production cutBacks · at the Iron Ore Company of Canada, our largest mi:ni·ng operation, in 1983, but wabush Mines increased production somewhat and there were production increases at -Flat Bay ·, Buchans a.nd Baie Verte. Mr.

Speaker, we continued to rank sixth among the provinces in the value of mineral production, the same position we have held for several years ·, and we expect to see a further increas·e in production this . year,probably, according to the minister, by about 5 per cent to 725 million tons compared to 690 million tons last year. The Department of Mines are very Aoptimistic that at least one new operation can begin operations this year. Hopefully ·, Minworth, . a company which has great success in mining fluorspar in th.e United Kingdom, is considering the establishment of a new mining operation on the St.

Lawrence fluorspar deposits, Negotiations between the Province, the federal government and the company are progressing towards an early conclus·ion which we all hope 2531

April 12, 19.8.4 Tape No . 945 SO - 2 MR. STEWART: will be positive. Government is also hopeful that 1984 will bring progess towards production of other deposits discovered in recent years such as the Strange Lake deposit in Labrador, tile gold deposits at Burnt Island :i:n Southwestern Newfoundland and Telly Pond base and pr-ecious metal deposits in Central Newfoundland . Mr. Speaker, mineral exploration has declined. However, the number of claims in good standing, according to the minister 1 at the end of 1983 stood at 15,288, still at a very h±gh level and staking activity is continuing at a healthy pace .

The. bas±c geological mapp±ng progranune will continue , thls year with seven mapping projects. The long-term objective of the department is to achieve 2532

April 12, 1984, Tape 946, Page l --apb MR. STEWART: complete geological map coverage of the Province by the early 1990s at a map scale acceptable for mode=n mineral exploration and resource management. Turning to energy, Mr. Speaker, the recession of recent years severely affected industry and commerce in the Province, and over the last two years encouraged a remarkable amount of energy conservation and substitution away from oil. Between 1980 and 1982,it is interesting to note that energy demands in the Province declined by 9 per cent, with demands for petroleum products falling by 14 per cent.

Provisional figures for 1983 show, in line with the rest of the country,the decline in energy demand falling by about 6 per cent, and the demand for petroleum products falling by about 8 per cent. Mr. Speaker, government remains committed to energy conservation and alternate energy resource development. In the 1984/85 budget funds have been budgeted for same. The Province's forests are estimated to be able to sustain an annual fuel wood yield of 500,000 metric tonnes, which is roughly equivalent to 800,000 barrels of oil.

Building on the success experienced in converting the James Paton Memorial Hospital in Gander to wood fuel use, government is trying to encourage industrial and commercial enterprise in the Province to convert to the use of locally available wood fuel resources. MR. CALLAN: Are you going to table that? MR. STEWART: Yes, no problem. The Petroleum Directorate is responsible for the administratioa of the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act and enforcement of its comprehensive 2533

... April 12, 1984, Tape 946, Page 2 -- apb MR. STEWART: regulations. . The Directorate is engaged in assessment of hydrocarbon resources and monitoring of related activities. It was very disappointing, however, to learn that the minister is having little success with the P.I.P. programme , in having it treated the same onshore as offshore. Pres .ently the ~etroleum Incentive Payments apply 80 per cent offshore and only 20 per cent onshore. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development is responsible for the preservation and enhancement of the rural way of life in the Province.

Rural Development provides for research and business opportunity development as well as the encouragement of co-operatives, crafts and regional development associations. Agricultural Development provides for farm business evaluation, production and marketing, planning, and soil and lane management activities. Northern Development provides grants and services to the people residing in the Labrador region of the Province, especially for the Native population. The department also operates retail outlets on coastal Labrador.

The new rural development ag .reement, which has been lacking now for several months, seems to be somewhat closer, according to the minister. There seems to be an agreement in principle between the federal and provincial governments; however, it seems, during the last two or three days, that again has fallen by the wayside. 2534

April 12, 1984, Tape 946, Page 3 -- apb MR. STEWART: Since several development associat .ions find themselves in financial di£ficulty because there is no agreement in place, government is presently trying . t.o arrange interim financing. The new agreement when signed, according to the minister, will be for five ye .ars and will benefit s.ome fifty....:one development associations around the Province. Regional development employs. social and economic resources to increase job oppo.rtuni ties and attempts to strengthen and broaden the economic base of rural areas.

The new agricultural ag:r.eeme.nt is being worked. on and tnere really does not seem to be any great problem between the different levels of government. The department provides financial assistance by way of incentive grants for farmers,and crop and livestock insurance and farm loans. One of the problems being 2535

·- April 12, 1984 Tape No. 947 MR. STEWART: experienced, Mr. Speaker, by farmers presently, .is that they do not qualify for UIC benefits, and the minister has indicated that no discussions have taken place in his depart:Irent to date on the matter. However, the minister did say he will discuss this matter with his federal counterpart over the next few weeks. Grant fundin~ is provided for Newfoundland Farm Products, a Crown corporation established to process and market products produced from locally raised hogscand chickens.

A subsidy or grant to Newfoundalnd Farm Products this year will be approximately $1.8 million. The Vegetable Marketing Board worked very well during the past year and hopefully this positive trend will continue. The Northern Development Department implements the Canada-Newfoundland Native Peoples of Labrador Agreement in designated Native communities and presently provides housing assistance and funding for economic and community development programmes. The community of Hopedale NM - 1 came up for much discussion.

Since the council still cannot agree in Hopedale if they should relocate or not, government officials will be visiting that community in the next couple of weeks to meet with council and interested groups. Government is st~ll doing an assessment in Labrador to determine if the Torngat Housing Association should be turned over to fall under the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. 2536

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 947 MR. STEWART: The Georges River caribou herd came up for much discussion also during debate. It was pointed out by the minister that any resident of the Northern zone under the present system 'can NM - 2 hunt as many caribou as they need. There was an estimated 300,000 animals in the herd and,just to give you an example, Mr. Speaker, when this herd start their migration they cover an area approximately 20 miles wide and 200 mi~es lonq. According to officials of the departrnent 110 per cent or 30,000 caribou can be 1 taken each year without damaging the herd.

However, only a small portion of this amount is presently beinq taken. The Department of Fisheries is responsible for the Province's most important resource, fish . Management activities are designed to safeguard and promote the interests of those engaged in the industry and to ensure that opportunities exist to earn a fulfilling livelihood. When this Province signed the restructuring agreement for the offshore fishing industry 1it was probably the most important agreement signed since Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949.

A new company, Fishery Products International Limited, is made up from the assets of Fishery Products, the Lake Group, John Penny and Sons, T.J. Hardy, Triton Seafoods, and North Atlantic Fisheries Limited. The new company has over 6,000 people 2537

·--· \ April 12, 1984 Tape No. 948 MJ ..,. 1 MR. STEWART: presently employed,with l,lOO trawlermen. One of the biggest problems that will face the new company over the next number of years will be trawler replacements at a cost of $9 million to $11 million each. Hopefully some deal can be worked out so that these vessels can be built at Marystown Shipyard. The minister stated that he and Mr. De Bane had discussed already building a prototype deep-sea trawler at Marystown. Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting to note that in 1980 we had 35 ~ 000 fishermen,both part-time and full-time,in this Province but in 1983 we only had 28,000 fishermen. · Since the Peckford administration took office, over $125 million ±n assistance has been provided through the provincial Department of Fisheries. During the past year in the inshore fishery alone government has provided $28 million to the small companies or independent operators; $13 million of this amount was in the form of government guaranteed loans, $10 million direct loans and $5 rnillllion in a combination of grants and loans.

The Fisheries Loan Board,which provides low interest loans up to $50,000 to assist fishermen in the construction of new vessels, purchase of used vessels and for equipment and major repa±rs,gave 632 direct loans to fishermen last year valued at approximately $6.4 million. Since 1980 the Fisheries Loan Board has approved over 2,500 loans and grants valued at $25.5 million. The Loan Board also administers a bank loan guarantee programme which provides for interest subsidized loans in excess of $50,000 but less than $1 million,and also vessel bounty programmes.

The Loan Board had several · million dollars in arrears,according to the minister,as of March 31, 1983,which represents 26 per cent of the entire loan fund. However, I might add, ltr. Speaker, only 7.6 9er 2538

- - ~ ___ ..., · -:--- ---' ~- April 12, 1984 Tape No. 948 MJ - 2 MR. STEWART: cent are in arrears since 1980 1 showing once again the ability and the quality of the people we have working at the Fisheries Loan Board, and,of course 1 the minister,wibhout a doubt. The board alsoFI might add, . Mr. Speaker, only repossessed thirteen boats during 1983, and I might add, most of .these repossessions were at the ~·s own request ·: Mr. Speaker, the Province is. hoping to conclude a deal in the near future to take over plants along the Labrador Coast.

Some concern was also expressed because fishermen from the Island moved to the Labrador Coast during the Summer months and recentl y the number of longliners has increased to a point where conflict could develop between the Labrador and Island fishermen. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : elapsed. MR. STEV'TART: MR. SPEAKER: to continue? MR. BARRY: MR. STEWART: will go again. MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: Scio. MR. BARRY: Order, please! The han. the member's time has By leave, Mr. Speaker? Does the han. member have leave How much do you have? About ten or fifteen minutes. I Mr. Speaker. The han .. the member for Mount Mr.

Speaker ., I am glad to see the Minister of Fisheries (Mr; 11organ) ·:back in his seat because one of the most obvious examples of lack of proper planning is the Department of Fisheries. The fishing industry is in a terrible crisis and we have a minister who is moving from crisis to crisis with ad hoc policies with a 2539

April 12,1984 Tape No. 949 ah-1 MR.BARRY: total failure to develop any sort of systematic philosophy which can be applied to the development of an overall or complete policy. And we see, I·guess, a very good example of this in the recent position taken by the Newfoundland minister . in discussions with Mr. De Bane last Thursday on reducing the salmon catches, reducing the amount of time that our commercial salmon fishermen could be involved in the fishery this year. Mr.

Speaker, it should be pointed out that total inconsistencies were set forth by the minister during consideration of the Fisheries estimates to the Resource Committee, total inconsistencies between what the minister said in this han. House and what he said to the Resource Committee. In this han. House the minister acknowledged that he had reached an agreement with Mr. De Bane on a two week curtailment of the time for the full-time commercial salmon fishermen to exercise his profession this year.

The Newfoundland minister acknowledged in this House that he had reached complete agreement with the minister on this point for a two week curtailement. Now the minister understood that this would amount to a 10 per cent reduction in catch, he informs both the House and the Committee. We then had the federal minister , Mr. Speaker, coming out with a three week curtailment. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland minister then raised great criticism of the federal minister and it was at that point, after prompting from the Opposition, that the Newfoundland minister 2540

April 12,1984 Tape No. 949 ah-2 MR.BARRY: started to discuss the concept of compensation for our full-time salmon fishermen. Mr. Speaker, the point has to be noted in this House that the Newfoundland Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) was prepared to make an agreement,and did make an agreernent,for a two week reduction in the amount of time our commercial, full-time .salmon fishermen would fish without any insistence on compensation being provided. And, Mr. Speaker, the record speaks for itself.

The minister's telex is there, the statement of the minister to this House is there,and 1if it is required 1the transcripts of the Resource Committee are there and available for anyone to obtain. MR.TOBIN: for the fishermen. MR.BARRY: He will get compensation We hope and expect that the Newfoundland Fisheries Minister (Mr.Morgan) obtains compensation for our salmon fisher:nen, and well he should. But , Mr. Speaker, if he does it will only be because another glaring omission from an agreement with the federal minister was pointed out to him by members on this side of the House.

It will only be , Mr.Speaker, because again he will have to go back - MR.MORGAN: Do not be so silly. MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the member will have an opportunity to reply and explain his position. The minister does not have to interrupt me in debate. And I will ask 1 before we get unruly here, Mr. Speaker, to have them cut it out. MR.SPEAKER (Ay lward ): Order, please! 2541

April 12,1984 Tape No. 949 ah-3 MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have,again, an example of the Newfoundland Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) being prepared to go up and have our salmon fishermen's income reduced without 2542

April 12, 1984 Tape 950 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: any attempt to obtain compensation. And now,after the fact,when he is~ criti=ized for it,he is desperately trying to seek a meeting with Mr. De Bane in order to bring about compensation. Where is the minister's head? What is he thinking? What is his philosophy? Mr.

Speaker, I lmCV-J -YO'\lL T:iono.ur will have _a haJ;d time understanding I I trrat a min1~er or -trie ·croWn- would -actually refuse to answer questions put · to him in Committee,but one of the ~first questions put to the minister was would -the minister inform the Committee of his philosophy with respect to the licencing of fishermen 1not just our salmon fishermen but all our fishermen?

Does he accept the notion that a licence that is given to our fishermen,on which they budget for the next season's work, they buy gear, they get their boats ready and so ~orth,and then weeks before the season is suppose to start they are told, no you cannot fish for this many weeks, you can only fish for this many weeks less three. And all of a sudden they are looking at a 30 per cent to 40 per cent reduction in income without compensation. MR. TOBIN: MR. BARRY: That is your federal buddies. Mr.

Speaker, it it time for the minister to clearly set forth what is the compensation that should be applied ~n any case of a fisherman's licence \ being interferred with. ~What is the philosophy of the minister when the security of our fishermen, the security upon which they are entitled to rely as any other businessman_ MR. 'FOBIN: You did not care about it in 1975. MR. BARRY: In no other situation, Mr. Speaker-MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! ------- ··- -- 2543

April 12, 1984 Tape 950 PK - 2 MR. BARRY: ~uld the .. __ _:o<'.. Yahoo for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) be -" stifled? MR. TOBIN: --- You -Weie · ~ l:efore you went back to my .district. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, would you please stifle him? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. STAGG: _Yahoo was ruled unparliamentary yesterday. MR. BARRY: Well 1he should stop acting like one. MR. TOBIN: Yes, I will stop for him. MR. SPEA!q:R: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, the time is come for the minister to set forth his philosophy,to point out that the fisherman is just as entitled to know what he is going to be able to do in his profession in the coming year as is an~ other businessman. He is entitled to know just what his licence will entitle him to do,. · a licence given by government. And he is entitled to be protected against expropriatlon without compensation;which is what is happening in thi~ case 1and which has happened time after time to other fishermen.

Now it is time for us to see a proper licencing board for our fishermen~ a quasi•judicial 1 independent body to get it away from the chummy sorts of agreements that we see the Newfoundland Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) engaging in,where he is prepared to give away out of his own pocket as if it were out of his own pocket, Mr. Speaker~He acts as though it was~ unfortunately it is out of the pockets of our fishermen , that he is prepared to make these deals, 2544 ,

April 12, 1984 Tape 950 PK - 3 MR. BARRY: avoid any references to compensating our fishermen when the security of their licences is interfered with. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a shocking and a scandalous state of affairs. It is,I would say, Mr. Speaker, shameful to see a minister responsible for our -fishermen prepared to take th ,is approach in negotiations with the federal government, prepared to let himself be sucked in to the detriment of those thousands of fishermen whom he is suppose to be protecting. Mr. Speaker, how long will the Premier permit this type of thing to go on in the Department of Fisheries?

How long will he permit the fisheries policy of his government uo be battered from pillar to post by ~ minister who refuses to develop a =~herent philosophy? Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, :J. it is because his hands are tied by the Premier~ perhaps it is because the Premier will not let the minister do his job 1 If that is the case the minister should tell us, and 1 of course, the minister should have the courage to do other things as well. Mr ·. Speaker, we have a situation where the most important industry in this Province is on perilous time . It has had hard times before, but, Mr.

Speaker, I doubt if there have been many occasions where we have seen virtually the entire industry facing the state of 2545

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 951 SD ~ 1 MR. BARRY: bankruptcy that we have seen over the last yea'I? to two. years · in this Province. we see the Minister of Fi:sheri:e .s (}1r. Morgan I. taking the approach that now that the provincial government has · jumped on the federal bandwagon and tagged along on a restructuri .ng agreement for the larger companies-, we see the prov :i::ncial minister taking the approach . that now the problem i:n the fishing industry is SDived, Nell, r· see there is a former Minister of Fisheri-es out in the corridors a£ the House, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure that gentleman is aware that the res -tructuring of the f.j.sh:i:ng i-ndustry has not done very much. for our small fishermen~ that our independent fish companies r Mr. Speake'I? , have not received much protection from that res -tructuring agreement, that ou:r; small fishermen, Mr. Speaker, are seeing their incomes decline due in part to the willingnes -s of the mi:ni:s ·ter to trade away their licences to the federal minister. We can see their incomes decline and see their costs continuing to rise. Mr.

Speaker, it will be very interesting -to se .e how many fishermen are going t,a be able to continue t.o meet the loans on their fishing vessels thi ·s· year. The member for Placentia (Mr. Pattersoni knows- that what I speak of is true, The member for Placentia knows that the fishermen in his a't'ea a'I?e in very 1. very diffi:cult times right now. And, Mr. Speaker, it is the obligation of every member of this House to try and see that this is changed.

It is the obligation of every member to try and see that the government,instead of reacting to crisis, acts before the fact to put a proper ~isheries policy, a comprehensive policy, in place. Right now we have all the attention being placed on the restructuring, on dealing with the bankrupt large fishing companies,and we have virtually no attention being paid, Mr. Speaker, to the needs of the 2546

April 12, 19.84 Tape No, 9_51 SD- 2 MR. BARRY: thousands: of :tns:h.ore ~i-s:helrnlen 1 nor do we have, Mr. Speaker, sufficient attention oeing plaaed to problems such as marketing. The minister was on a panel discussion in - where was it? - Nova Scotia. MR. MORGAN: Province-wide. MR. BARRY: I was afra~d 'it was province-wide, Mr. Speaker. I was hoping that it would have been restricted just to Newfoundland,but now we have it'gone across the full Province of Nova Scotia as well.

And we had an industry representative who was intimately involved in the fish business get up and tell the minister that one of the biggest problems that they have in marketing our fish in the United States is the minist~r, is the Newfoundland minister. One of the biggest problems they have is his continuous negative quoting on quality. And 'the minister himself agreed in the Committee, Mr. speaker, that it was more a matter of perception than reality. And then, Mr.

Speaker, the minister is wondering where this perception comes from - where is this perception coming from? - when this minister gets up time after time and talks · about the poor quality of Newfoundland fish and Canadian fish. T~ese reports are going down to the United States and then the minister is wondering why our Newfoundland and Canadian fishermen have a hard time s~lling their product, when the very minister who is supposed to be dealing with quality is complaininq about it, publicizing it. The minister says, 'Oh, it is only a few bad apples and they spoil the whole barrel'.

Well, the way the minister ·talks about it it is as though it was the entire barrel. A_nd that is the message that they get down in the United States. Who w·ould wonder, 2547

-- ------ -----'-- ----- April 12, 1984 Tape No. 952 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that they would then turn around and buy Icelandic fish? I bet we do not have the Icelandic Fisheries Minister sending press reports down to the United States about the poor quality of Icelandic fish. MR. MORGAN: He did in the uast. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if there are quality problems within Newfoundland 1these are problems that the Newfoundland Minister should be quietly but firmly dealing with.

He should .. not be running around Nova Scotia, the United States, proclaiming far and wide, "Oh; the quality of Newfoundland fish is ,terrible." Tell us, Mr. Speaker, tell the processors 1if there are any who are producing bad quality fish, tell them quietly and firmly that they have to clean up their act, but do not go running around the world destroying the public relations of the Newfoundland fishery. Mr. Speaker, we have a situation where,frankly,I believe that the Premier has got to take a hard look at w~ere the current Minister of Fisheries is going with the department.

He has to take a hard look at where - - - MR. MORGAN: I am goinq a:l:ter you in the next election, MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. BARRY: - he has to take a hard look at where his gove:nment i~ gain~. !:-1R. :.-!ORGAN: (Inaudible) in any district in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Mount Scio-Bell Island. MR. MORGAN: Order, please! Order, please! Come on over to No. You v;ill not be sta '?" in~ in Mount Scio. Oh, no. · You ~11ill be running from ~1ount Scio ._ 2548

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 952 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: It is a good district. I did not get time to take a good look at it,but actually I have a choice of about four different districts that are parts of my former district. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: fun, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. CALLAN: a quorum call? MR. MORGAN: Order, please! The han. member's Time passes when you are having The han. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker - Mr. Speaker, could we have We have a quorum, Mr. Speaker .. The han. gentleman obviously cannot count. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order, please!

There is a quorum present. Is it agreed to continue? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: No, it is not agreed. ~is one minute left to wait. Order, please! Three minutes have passed. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAn: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman stands up in the House this afternoon and tries to carry on where he left off after nine hours of debate on the Fisheries ftStimates. MR. TOBIN: And he walked out. MR.

MORGAN: And at the end of nine hours he got so frustrated in trying to_get to the Minister of Fisheries,unsuccessfully trying to get to him with his petty, little criticisms, as he showed in the nouse this afternoon, he got so frustrated he walked out of the n·eeting. After 2549

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 952 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: nine hours of trying to embarrass the Minister of Fisheries he 'qalked out of the meeting, and walked away. Now I just came back from a meeting ,out in Bonavista last nigh~ 2550

April 12, 1984 Tape 953 EC - l MR. MORGAN: It \..ras a meeting with over 500, maybe close to 600 fishermen and :n.lant "1-mrkers. And, !-1r. Speaker, the comments that I received after that two and one-half hour speech and discussion and question/answer period, I can tell you, the hon. gentleman had better stay far, far away from Bonavista South if he is going to look for votes in the next election! Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman does not have the courage to listen to what I am going to say bec _ause he cannot stand what I am going to say, he cannot take it.

He cannot take it inside the House or outside the House. That is the reason why, from the first day the House opened, when I spoke in the debate in the House in response to the Speech from the Throne, when I embarrassed him to tears - I should not say 'tears' because then people will say ' that 'Barry• was crying. I should not be saying 'embarrassed him to tears', that is a wrong term.

But ever since then he has been so vindictive against this minister that he is trying _every possible way he can to try to embarrass this minister, and he is not going to succeed because the more he is trying, the bigger the hole he is digging for himself! SOME HON. .MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) need have no worries about the member for !-!ount Scio (r~.r . Barry) taking the Liberal leadership, - because I know he is going to oppose him for the Liberal leadership.

The member for Mount Scio has got no more chance of winning the Liberal leadership than I have,and I have no intention of running for the Liberal leadership - no more chance of winning. 2551

April 12, 1984 Tape 953 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: And, Mr. Speaker, he has been trying in the last few days to make it look as if there is an issue surfacing on the fisheries. What is the issue? - the Atlantic salmon policy. And he is doing h~s very best to try to make it look like this Atlantic salmon policy is not one of his own colleague's policies. He is saying in his own mind, 'This cannot be a Liberal policy, because I am a Liberal now. It has to be a P.C. policy and I am opposing P.C. policy.

I always agreed with P.C. policy up until a few weeks ago, but now I have to oppose P.C. policy and I have to agree with Liberal policy. So he is trying to find a way to not be able to agree with a bad Liberal Party policy. Last night out in Bonavista, and I understand, in Bay de Verde an9 other places where meetings were held on the Atlantic salmon issue by the fishermen in different areas - and speaking of the issue, Mr. Speaker, last week the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) and I agreed to sit down and work out a reasonable position, a non-partisan position, to take forward to the Minister of Fisheries in Otta~'la (¥..r. De Bane) , to try to help the cause of the fishermen of our Province. We sat down for about half an hour or so behind closed doors in the Opposition room over here and we discussed it sincerely, and we agreed not to discuss it anymore publicly, no public comment, until after Sunday's meeting. That same evening, who came into the Estimates Committee ana' scuttled the >'lork of his colleague from Fogo but the member for Mount Scio! MR.DINN: The boy wonder! MR.

MORGAN: The boy wonder from Mount Scio. Because he just could not stand the idea of the 2552

April 12, 1984 Tape 953 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: Minister o£ Fisheries - whom he is always trying to embarrass - working with one of his o\m colleagues to do something good for the fishermen of the Province. He could not stand the idea, so he came in that night - and my colleagues on the Committee ~rom our side were there. MR.CALLAN: Not true. MR. MORGAN: There is no question at all that his one sole aim was to scuttle what we agreed upon that same afternoon. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: And he was indeed successful in scuttling it, because that is exactly what happened. ., _ ... _____ .._ So, because I could not find any sincerity in the Liberal Party to work out a problem of the fishermen, ·where did I turn? ~·?ell, des,i te ~'1e fact it is touted around that Mr . Cashin is going to run for the Liberal leadership and all of that - I do not know if he will or not , but he is head of the Fishe .lUUen 's Unio n that 2553

April 12, 1984, Tape 954, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: represents thousands of fisher.men,so I turned to that source and today we sat down for over two hours, the Fishermen's Union, Fat~ Des McGrath, Earl McCurdy, Max Short and others, with my Deputy Minister and myself, and we workec'l out in that two hour discussion an agreement between the Fishermen's Union and the Newfoundland Government SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear. ! MR. MORGAN: - an agreement on specifics of the Atlantic salmon policy.

Because the union and ourselves had already put forward the same position, almost identical, to Ottawa three to f~ur weeks ago. So now we have an ~greement, the union and the Newfoundland Government, on a major issue, the Atlantic salmon. So where do we go from there? Now we go on Sunday to sit down with Mr. De Bane and his officials and hopefully the federal minister will listen to, I would say a very strong voice, the voice of the Newfoundland Government representing all the people o£ the Province, and the Fishermen's Union, a voice for all the fishermen.

And by doing that, I am convinced that we will be able to persuade the federal minister to change a bad Liberal policy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: - a bad Liberal policy which the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) cannot and will not accept as Liberal policy. He is trying to twist things around to make believe that we have responsibility for licencing : He wants to say, 'Oh, there must be a change in the licencing system to prevent ministers from playing politics with licences.' You know, Mr. Speaker, I am surprised! He is a lawyer. He has travelled some parts 2554

April 12, 1984 Tape 954 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: of rural Newfoundland, because he ran for the P.C. leadership and I saw him in some of the areas where I was campaigning for the same purpose. He was out there once in a while in rural Newfoundland; he saw a few codfish, a few squid and a few herring once in~ while. I did not see him on too many stage­ heads though, I will tell you that. I did not see him aboard too many fishing boats with slime on his boots; I did not see him in too many boats. I did not see him talking to too many fishermen : He did not get down to that level, that of talking to the lowly fishermen.

But now he is suddenly an expert on the fishing industry, and what an expert! He does not know who is responsible for licencing of fishermen! MR.PATTERSON: No salmon for 'Leo'. MR. MORGAN: He does not understand who is responsible for licencing of fishermen. We cannot issue a licence for fishermen. And, you know, ~x.

Speaker, wherever I travel today, I find the Liberal Party are doing the best they can to place in the minds of the fishermen the idea, to lead them to believe, that the Peckford government controls the licence for lobsters, the Peckford government controls the licence for salmon. 'You cannot get a herring licence; that is Morgan and Peckford stopring you from getting a herring quota.' And that is what I find all the time in my travels. I have to try to explain the different jurisdictions to get fishermen to understand that we have no control over giving a licence to fish for lobsters. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. the Minister's time has elapsed. MR. MORGAN: Oh, my goodness, Mr. Speaker! I was just beginning to get started. 2555

April 12 , 1984 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): leave to continue? MR.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 954 EC - 3 By leave. Does the hon. the Minister have No, Mr . Speaker . No, leave is not granted. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman, instead of ranting and raving, as he is . - - - --· do.i:ng, would get up - if he were allowed to bring his guitar into the House - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sorry to interrupt the hon. the Leader o£ the Opposition. It being 5:00 p.m. on Thursday, I have to infor.m the House that we have one question for the Late· Show.

Opposition . MR. NEA:RY: The hon. the Leader of the If the hon. gentleman were allowed to bring his guitar into the House, Mr. Speaker, and strum us a few tunes and sing Voices in the Wind, I am sure that he would accomplish more than he did in his few remarks a few moments ago. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman 2556

April 12, 1984 Tape No. 955 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: got caught out in left field the other day. He got caught red-handed, Mr. Speaker. When he was over in Japan with the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane}, being hauled around in a rickshaw, he and the federal Minister of Fisheries agreed that there would be a two week postponement of the opening of the commercial salmon fishery in this Province. The han. gentleman in Tokyo, in his rickshaw MR. HORGAN: guitar with me • MR. NEARY: with Mr. De Bane - Too bad I did not have my _ It is a pity he did not have the guitar. - Mr.

Speaker, agreed that there would be a two week postponement, and the han. gentleman did not have sense enough to say, •Look here, Mr. De Bane • MR . MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (A ylwardi: Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please: A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman again, you see, is trying to leave the impression that there was an agreement made, whether it be made in Japan, Honolulu, Vancouver, Ottawa, St. John •· s, Moncton or elsewhere. There was no agreement anvtime.

How can we have an agreement? r·re have no agreement on the herring fishery, we have no agreement on the Northern cod fishery, we have no agreement on the lobs ·ter fishery, we have no agreement on the squid fishery, now how · can we suddenly have an agreement,out of all of these fishing speci: ·es, on the salmon? There was · never any agre .ement made. The fact is, Mr, Speaker, the hon, gentleman is try·ing to leave the impression that we are responsib-le for a bad policy out of Ottawa.

He has to accept th .e fact, Mr, Speaker, that there was no agreement, number one, which has been clearly po~trayed as a result of correspondence. The only agreement, Mr. Speaker, is the 2557

April 12, 19.84 Tape No. 955 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: one reached today,which I am proud of,Between th.e Fishermen~s Union and myself. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is an abuse of the rules-. MR~ SPEAKER (Aylwardi_: Order, please~ - That obviously is not a point of order. Each member will have· an opportunity to debat _e his 90ints in the ten minutes allotted. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman told us the other day that the Thursday before last there was prior consultation between hlm and Mr •. De Bane and that he had agreed to a two week postponement. MR. MORGAN: MR.

SPEAKER: Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN ': A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please!' A point of order, the han. I cannot let these statements go into the record of the House of Assembly unchallenged. I at no time s·aid we had reached an agreement on any aspect of Atlantic salmon. There was no agreement made, no aqreement reached, . and that is the reason why '"e are tod~y so opposed to the policy put forward on Atlantic salmon.

And if the hon. gentleman is opposed to it, let him quite clearly show why he is opposed to it, lay on the· table of the Kouse why he is opposed to it,and put forward the same concerns ' to his colleague in Ottawa in the same manner as I will on Sundav. MR •. SPEAKER: is · no point of order. MR. NEARY: Order, please: To that point of order~ there The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman continues to harrass me and get up on spurious 2558

April 12, 19_84 Tape No. 9.55 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: points of order, Your Honour should name the hon. gentleman and have him removed from the House, Mr. speaker. The h.on. gentleman told us that Thursday be::fore last there was prior consultation with r-1r. De Bane and · - they came to an agreement that there would :Oe a. two week postponement~ The hen, gentleman th .en told us later that there was a double-cross on the part of the federal minister - because he announced a three week - MR. MORGAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (.Aylward) : qrder, please! A point of order, the han. Minister o~ Fisheries.

MR. MORGAN: The han. gentleman is again trying to put tnto the record of the House the fact that there was an agreement and that I condemned the fact that the agreement was not honoured afterwards. Now that is not so. r1r. s:oeaker, I want to make it clear, the hon. gentleman can twist it all he wants to, .but I repeat aaain, there was no agreement. Mr ~ De Bane will confirm there was no agreement, there was not even an understanding. There w·as no agreement. The policy put forward h.opefully will :Oe changed on SUnday,then we will have an agreement, then but not now. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please!' To that point of order, there is no point of order. I would remind hon. gentlemen that if there are differences of opinion, and in this case there are differences of opinion, each member will have the opportunity to make his points i•n this debate. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: If the han. gentleman continues to harras·s me I believe Your Honour should take appropriate steps. Because we only have ten minutes and the hon. gentleman 2559

April 12, 1984 Tape No .. 955 SD ~ 4 MR. NEARY: is interrupting me to try to stifle debate. Now; Hansard will show, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman did tell this House that there was an agreement. The 2560

April 12,1984 Tape No. 956 ah-1 MR.NEARY: only thing is the han. gentleman forgot, overlooked, was negligent in his duties and responsibilities by not demanding compensation for the commercial salmon fishermen. There is where the han. gentleman fell down on the job, Mr. Speaker. But,anyway,I am not going to belabour the point. Speaker, the han. House knows that we put our telexes on the table of this House and the people of this Province know where we stand on this matter, especially the fishermen. Mr.

Speaker, I had all kinds of calls from fishermen condemning the han. gentleman for going along with this arrangement. I want to change the subject for a moment. I want to talk about mining. Mines come under this head, Mr. Speaker, and I want to say this, that I am absolutely delighted and thrilled and pleased to learn that in this calendar year approximately $2 million - I hope the media will pick this up~ approximately $2 million will be spent on drilling and exploration and prospecting for minerals on the South­ west part of this Province,especially in my district of LaPoile.

British Petroleum, BP, will be spending about $1.5 mi