Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 77 (35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-77

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDING S (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLI No. n -1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, JUNE 2,1992 Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty· Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CH EEMA, Guizar CHOMI AK, Dave CONNER Y, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNE Y, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKE S, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darr en, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4093 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 2,1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of John L. Rankin, Bill Thompson, Nelson Kreager and others requesting the governm ent reconsider its decision and return Manitoba Heritage Federation's granting authority. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sara Dyck, Ken Reynolds, Elizabeth A. Smith and others requesting the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) . It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned Providence College and Theological Sem inary, humbl y sheweth: THAT your petitioner desires that The Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Semi nary Incorporation Act L.R.M., 19 90 c. 21 7 be amended to change the name of the Cor poration to Providence College and Theological Seminary.

The petitioner has changed its name from Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Semi nary to Providence College and Theological Seminary, pursuant to The Corporations Act of Manitoba, and desires, for clarification and to avoid confusion, to change its name in the above referred to Incorporation Act. WHEREFORE your petitioner humbly prays that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to pass

an act for the purposes above mentioned. And is in duty bound your petitioner will ever pray. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that: The Brandon General Hospital is the major health care institution for southwestern Manitoba; and The citizens of Brandon and southwestern Manitoba are deeply concerned and disturbed about the downsizing of the hospital and view it as a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and The Manitoba government has chosen not to review the current budget to ensure that cutbacks to vital services do not occur; and The administration of the hospital has been forced to take drastic measures including the elimination of the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, along with the layoff of over 30 staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of over $1 .3 million; and WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon General Hospital. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Ruper tsland (Mr .

Harper), and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 19 88 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal people; and

4094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 1992 The AJI delivered its report in August of 19 91 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aborig ina l se lf-go vernment and the righ t of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system; and The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also recommend both aboriginal self-government and a separate and parallel justice system; and On January 28, 19 92, five months after releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and Despite the All-Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self-government, the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within provincial jurisdiction.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba sho w a strong comm itment to aborigi nal self-go vernment by considering reversing its po sition on the AJI by su ppor ting the rec omm endations within its ju risdiction and im plem enting a separate and parallel justice system. *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) , and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the unemployed and people re-entering the labour force; and

WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone over 1 ,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and training; and

WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and

WHEREAS without consultation the program was cut in the 19 92 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and WHE REAS there is a growing need for this program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of Selkirk, the Selkirk local of the Manitoba Metis Federation as well as many other local organizations and individuak WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gil leshammer) to consider a one-year moratorium on the program. PRESENTING REPO RTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs.

Lo uise Dacquay (C hai rperson of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairperson of Standing Committee on Private Bills): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report on the Standing Committee on Private Bills. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Private Bills presents the following as their Second Report.

Your committee met on Monday, June 1, 19 92, at 3 p.m., in Room 254 of the Legislative Building, to consider bills referred. Your committee has considered: Bill 52, The Pas Health Complex Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation "The Pas Health Complex" Bill 90, The Seven Oaks General Hospital Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le "Seven Oaks General Hospital" and has agreed to report the same without amendment.

Your committee recommends that the fees paid with respect to; Bill 39, The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital Inco rporation Amendm ent Act ; Loi

June 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4095 modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation "The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital" which was considered on May 12 , 19 92, be refunded less the cost of printing. Your committee also recommends that the fees paid with respect to the following private bill be refunded, less the cost of printing: Bill 90, The Seven Oaks General Hospital Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituent en corporation le "Seven Oaks General Hospital" All of which is respectfully submitted. * (1 335) Mr. Reimer: I move, seconded by the honourable member for St.

Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPO RTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mc Cr ae ), I would li ke to table the '92-93 Departmen tal Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Justice Supplementary Information for Legislative Review. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 94- The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1992 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cumm ings) , that Bill 94, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 19 92 (Loi de 19 92 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de flscalite), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the conte nts of this bill, recommends itto the House, and I would like to table that message. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the loge to my right, where we have with us this afternoon the Honourable Dr.

David Carter, the Speaker of the Alberta Legislative Assembly. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon, Sir. Also with us this afternoon we have, from the Kleefeld Christian School, twenty Grades 5 to 9 students, and they are under the direction of Mr. Verlin Klassen. This school is located in the consti tuen cy of the honourable Minis ter of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger). Also this afternoon, from the Leaf Rapids Education Centre, we have thirty Grade 8 students, and they are under the direction of Suzanne Billing.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Constitutional Proposal Delegation of Powers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Premier. After the Beaudoin-Dobbie report was made public on March 1, 19 92, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) of this province stated unequivocally on national TV and in all of the media of this province that he was absolutely opposed to the delegation of powers in the federal government, and he went on further to describe the powers that were being changed to the provinces that would reduce the federal government to the status of a post office.

In light of the material contained within the rolling draft and the other material that is now in the public arena about the pr oposed constitutional amendments, can the Deputy Premier explain to the people of Manitoba how the province feels about the six proposed exclusive areas of jurisdiction to be moved over to the provinces in an exclusive way, Mr. Speaker, and how that fits with the task force report on the Constitution in calling for a strong national government with a maintenance of strong national programs for the people of Canada and the people of Manitoba? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Speaker, ! do not have to explain the process to the Leader of the Oppo sition. There are a number of processes and proposals that are on the table as it relates to the whole constitutional package that has been discussed over the past many weeks by my colleague, the

4096 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 Attorney General (Mr. McCrae). Many statements have been made. There have been no final conclusions reached, and I would not expect to have to deal with those until there is a final conclusion reached to which this Assembly and the people of Manitob a will have the opportunity to make comment. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister says wait until we see it, but I think it is our responsibility to raise some of the issues out of the public task force reports to ensure and to prevent material being contained within the final propo sa l that is inconsistent with the public hearings in Manitoba and inconsistent with the long-term vision that Manitoba has always maintained in terms of a strong national government. Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) went on to say that if larger provinces take over many services now offered by the federal government, Ottawa will have little incentive to offer the programs to smaller provinces.

In light of these statements from the Premier, in light of what is contained now in the rolling draft, and in light of the fact that Manitobans want a strong national government and do not want to see the massive delegation of powers to the provinces, what is the position that this government is taking at the ministers' meeting, and are they opposing this delegation of power as the Premier indicated when the Beaudoin-Dobbie report was released publicly some two and-a-half months ago? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to get into the accepting of or the commenting on specific details relating to a rolling draft that the member refers to. We are in a constitutional process which has been going on for a long time, Mr. Speaker, and I can assure the member, I believe that the people of Ma nitoba, No. 1, do want a strong fed eral government. We want a united Canada, one which we have all been able to enjoy the privileges of a free democratic society, taking advantage of living in such a tremendous country. I, Mr.

Speaker, would hope, and I say this genuinely, that as the process develops over the next few weeks, that we can see a conclusion to these constitutional discussions. I think the nation is constitutionally fatigued, and I think we all should work to try to accomplish a successful conclusion to those negotiations. Spending Power Provisions Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I find it rather ironic that the government is willing to comment on the various components of the package and not comment about their position on the most important issue in the constitutional proposal.

More Manitobans in the Meech Lake process and more Manitobans in the all-party task force dealing with the Constitution raised the vision of a strong national government with the ability to redistribute wealth and income across the regions and across to individual Canadians. Yes, we want a united Canada too, but we want a united Canada that maintains a strong national government. I have a final question to the Deputy Premier, because the government is making comments on parts of the paper and, obviously, today, will not make comments on this part of the proposal.

During the Meech Lake hearings, the Province of Manitoba proposed that the spending power provisions contained within Meech be deleted. All parties signed that. Yet, today, we see in the Dobbie-Beaudoin report wording that is, in four areas and including spending powers, identical to Meech Lake. I would ask the Deputy Premier: In light of the fact that they have stated publicly their position on certain areas of the Constitution, what is their position on the spending power provisions?

We would like to know and adjust our position before we go into the ministers' meetings next week, rather than waiting and reacting after. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I believe strongly, and I think the people of Manitoba believe strongly, that we have to maintain the ability for the federal government to carry out, in a fair way, the process of equalization payments. We have put that position forward in the strongest way possible. Let me tell you, I think it is unfair to ask today for comments specifically dealing with certain parts of a process.

We believe strongly and hav e confidence in the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) who has been carrying the provincial government's position forward, the task force's position forward, into a process which I believe will work.

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4097 Mr. Speaker, let us give it time to do that. We are having some 1 0 days of ministers not getting together for, call it whate ver you like, a cooling-off period or a time to reflect on what has in fact taken place. I think when they go back to the table after the officials have worked, we will then have the opportunity to see what is accomplish able and what is not. Communications Industry Employment Statistics Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr.

Speaker, while the Constitution is on the minds of many Canadians, the issue of jobs and jobs for their brothers and sisters and their families are on the minds of every Canadian. The communications industry is one of the industries In Manitoba that has suffered along with every other sector in our economy as this government's agenda fails. Today, we have learned of another 50 or more people being laid off in the co mmun ications industry. Television stations have laid off people. Throughout the industry, we are losing jobs.

Can the Acting Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism or the Deputy Premier perhaps tell this House how many jobs have been lost In this industry and when this government is going to change course so that Manitobans can have jobs in their own province? Hon. Jim Ernst (Acting Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), and he will report back to the House. Mr. Storie: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the only good thing about that answer is it is not the normal rhetoric we getfrom the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question. * (1 345) Economic Growth Employment Creation Statistics Mr. Jerry Storie (FII n Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the same minister or perhaps, preferably, to the Deputy Premier. The largest tem porary services organization in Canada, Manpower Temporary Services, says the hopes for economic recovery are not supported by hiring plans for the province of Manitoba.

Some 68 percent of businesses are either not going to hire or are going to lay off. Mr. Speaker, when is this government going to change its economic course so that we are creating jobs in Manitoba and not exporting our people to other provinces? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): The member fails to recognize that we have been in and have seen an international recession which has caused, Mr. Speaker, a lot of restructuring, a lot of rethinking. In fact, we had to make some tough decisions within the government process.

Some close to 1 ,000 positions-and I say positions-had to be dealt with as it related to the cost imposed on the taxpayers to continue to carry the size of Civil Service that we had. But it is not all doom and gloom, as the member for Rin Flon should note. In his community alone, there is some $1 85 million being spent to upgrade the smelter, which is part of a restructu ring because of an environme ntal licensing which will create some 485 jobs at peak in his community this fall.

I would appreciate at some point that he would come forward and acknowledge that work that is being done, where in fact it is of a positive nature. Tourism Industry Government Initiatives Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Premier should know there has been a 17 percent decrease in employment in the mining industry in the last year. Mr.

Speaker, my final question to the Deputy Prem ier : When we learned today that the Convention Centre has a deficit of some $650,000 directly related to this government's failed tourism stra tegy, can the mi nister explain what the government is going to do to correct that strategy and to create opportunities for the people in tourism industry who are also losing their jobs? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member refers to a drop in the numbers of individuals who are working in the mining industry. There is no secret that we were in the worst taxing position.

We had the highest taxes imposed on those people who were trying to carry out a mining activity in Manitoba. We have changed that to encourage investment and job opportunities in the mining sector.

4098 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 Number two, Mr. Speaker, what we have done is, over the last five budgets, we have frozen the personal income taxes. In fact, we lowered the personal income tax and froze taxes on the business community, which allows them to carry out a more competitive business in this country. Constitutional Proposal Provincial Referendum Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. In his statement to the House yesterday, the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) acknowledged that the current talks have become all too reminiscent of the entire Meech Lake process, a wound from which this country is still suffering. We agree that a break in the talks is good. However , it should be clear to everyone that that is not going to end the democratic deficit that exists in this country, because all we have seen to date are vague generalities. There has been no text that has been distributed to any of us.

We just have a process which is rolling on, and we have, it appears, a federal government mentality that if they can keep the process going, eventually they can paint anybody who may have any objections as crazy-as Joe Clark has Indicated would be his favourite use of wor ds. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier if his government will now reflect on its position further and consider giving its support to our call for a referendum, which would give the people of this province the final straightforward say on a yes-no proposition of the proposals when they are in final form. Hon.

James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, let me at the outset say I believe it is the wishes of this government and the people of Manitoba to reach a successful conclusion sooner rather than later on a constitutional package, and one that is acceptable to the majority of Canadians. We have a process, Mr. Speaker, which was embarked upon and agreed upon by this Legislative Assembly, to have a resolution of such a nature brought back, debated, and then referred to the public for a public hearing process at which everyone and anyone can proceed to bring their comments and their positions forward .

In fact, I would say it is national leadership as it refers to the input of a constitutional change. At this point, that is a process that is in place. I would be prepared to discuss further with my colleague who is in charge of the discussions and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) as to any change in that. But, Mr. Speaker, that is the process which has been accepted by this Legislature and I think by the people of Manitoba. * (1 350) Mrs. carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, we have a million people in the province of Manitoba. The last time we had a constitutional task force, we had 7 4 groups present.

We had 17 7 individuals, and we had 79 others who subm itted written bri efs-h ardly a reflection of the one million-plus people who live in the province of Manitoba. Manitoba's task force recom mended that government consider the referendum. The people of British Columbia now will have one, the people of Quebec will now have one, and there is a present bill in the Alberta Legislature which would give the people of Alberta one. Will the Deputy Premier tell this House why Manitobans should not have the same rights? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, the member of the Liberal Party may not understand how decisions are made and as leader of her caucus may take an indep endent and individua listic role in the leadership of her party. Mr. Speaker, this government does not operate in that manner. It operates on a consensus of government, and rules and policies have been established. To change that takes a considerable amount of time, effort, input and justification. I am sure that would be an appropria te question, when the Premier returns, to put to him as to whether or not he plans to direct and lead that kind of a process. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Unlike the Deputy Premier, I was at the last Meech Lake process, and if ever there was a process that defiled Constitution making in this nation, it was that week in Ottawa . I thought the Premier and the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae) agreed with that. Earlier this afternoon, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Down ey), the Deputy Premier, indicated that people were constitutionally fatigued. Well, Mr. Speaker, I agree. They are constitutionally fatigued, and perhaps one of the reasons they are constitutionally fatigued is because they know that they are going to have no final say in what their

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4099 Constitution says. The only way to ensure that they will get over their fatigue is to give them a role. Will the Deputy Premier tell this House why the people of British Columbia and the people of Quebec are to be trusted by their governments, but the people of the province of Manitoba are not to be trusted by theirs? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe for one minute that this government plans to impose something on the people of Manitoba that the majority are not prepared to accept.

I can assure her that I have been in politics long enough, as have many of my colleagues, to know that if you do so, you do so only to find the ultimatum, and that is to be rejected in the public opinion poll that takes place. I believe the process that has been carried out so far is one that has been responsible, as it has been directed by this Premier (Mr. Filmon) and by our Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). There is not a proposal at this point, Mr. Speaker, that has not been proposed or tabled before this Assembly or the people of Manitoba.

I would hope and I pray that a resolve to the discussions that are taking place finish and conclude in a successful manner sooner rather than later. Llndenvlew Residence Funding Decrease Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, a recent StatsCan study indicated that Manitoba has the hig hest teenage pregnancy rate of any Canadian province with more than 80 teenaged women becoming pregnant every week in this province.

The Lindenview Residence, an agency run by the Salvation Army, provides programs for teenaged mothers and their babies, which helps strengthen their chance of success, to help strengthen the chance of those families who are among the most vulnerable in our province becoming strong and being successful. Will the Minister of Family Services confirm today that he has decreased the per diem to Lindenview Residence by 50 percent and he has eliminated entirely the per diem to the babies who are in Lindenview Residence? There is no per diem- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question has been put. * (1 355) Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we fund quite a number of external agencies. I am going to have to take the question as notice. I do not have that detail with me. I do not believe we talked about that in the Estimates process when we spent some time together, but I will get the details for the member and report back to the House. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, we did discuss this in Estimates.

Is the Minister of Family Services aware that Lindenview Residence now has a $50,000 deficit and is forced, because of the cutbacks by the provincial government, to appeal to the Manitoba Milk Marketing Board and to private diaper services to provide free milk and diapers for the babies in Lindenview Residence? Mr.GIIIeshammer: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, we fund hu ndreds and hun dr eds of agencies throughout the province. I will have to get the details on that particular agency for the member.

I would say to the member, it is not unusual for many of the agencies in the province to access funding from a number of levels of government, whether it is municipal or federal or provincial. This afternoon, I was at the United Way luncheon where they raised some $8.2 million that are spread over agencies throughout the province. But the details the member is asking about that specific agency, I will bring back to the House at a later time. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, given that the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) , in a recent answer this afternoon, said, and I quote, tough decisions need to be made within the government process, can the Minister of Family Services state that a cutback to per diems-the elimination of per diems for babies at Lindenview Residence and the concomitant need to go out and ask for free milk and diapers is part of that tough decision that this government has made? Mr. Gll le sh ammer: Mr. Speaker, without accepting the member's

preamble, I have indicated that I would look at the situation and bring an answer back to the House. City of Winnipeg Act Community Committee Role Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. Residents in my community are quite concerned about the issues of video arcade and adult video

41 00 LEGIS LATIV E ASSE MB LY O F MANIT O BA June 2, 19 92 proliferation. Why has this government consistently ame nded The City of Winnipeg Act so that commu nity committees which contain councillors who represent local interests are excluded from input on decisions of this kind on video arcades, adult videos and other matters of this kind surrounding variances? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, in the session before this one, The City of Winnipeg Act was amended to have the fi rst judgment made on a variance or conditional use to be made by an appointed board of the members of City Council. That is the only change that has been made. Currently, the appeal process from that is to the elected representatives at City Hall. This matter is entirely within the hands of the City Council. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the same minister. The minister is aware that amendments before this Legislature will now ensure that there is no input whatsoever from community committees.

Why is this government opposed to local representatives having input on matters of this kind? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, there is no change having taken place in Bill7 8 than has happened for the past 20 years since The City of Winnipeg Act was implemented. The same appeal process is In place under whatever name you wish to call it. It is a committee of the central council that hears the appeal s. It was heard by the com mittee of environment when it was called that.

It was heard by the variance and conditional use appeal committee when it was called that, and it will be heard by a standing committee of council following the passage of amendments under Bill 78-no change in the past 20 years. * (1 400) Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister. Will the minister not agree that at one time the initial applications were heard by com munity committees and this bill will prohibit forever any input by local community committees because of the wor ding of this legislation? It will not be allowed, and City Council has passed a resolution opposing that. Mr.

Ernst: Mr. Speaker, in the session of 19 91 , because of amendments made to the act in 19 91 , the original applic ation will be heard by a board of adjustment. That was supported by the City of Winnipeg. The appeal to that will still be heard by the political arm of City Council. Not only, now the local representative, wherein such an application is heard, will be able to now appear (

a) in the beginning and first instance before the board of adjustment and again dur ing the appeal. That was not permitted before, so the local area representative, the councillor for that particular ward , will have that opportunity now that he did not have before. Manitoba Hydro Conawapa Pamphlet Review Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. This morning in committee, I questioned the minister about a propaganda piece that was put out by Manitoba Hydro with their April billings, the sole purpose of which was to propagate the Conawapa project.

The title of the pamphlet was Conawapa and the Ontario Hydro Sale: A Good Deal for Manitobans. The minister said he would review the pamphlet in order to assist this review. I am going to table a copy of that pamphlet today. This morning, the minister set down two criteria for the acceptability of Manitoba Hydro's use of its monopoly to propagate anything. He said: Firstly the information has to be for the purpose of telling Manitobans what they are doing; secondly, it has to be fact.

My question for the minister Is: Given that this pamphlet meets neither of those criteria in its statement that the environmental impacts from the pro jec t are min ima l , will the mi niste r now acknowledge that statement of opinion by Manitoba Hydro succeeds on neither of those fronts, and that Manitoba Hydro should be advised of that? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, the member fails to recognize the fact that the provincial government appoints a board to look after the affairs or, on a policy basis, to direct the affairs of Manitoba Hydro.

I have indicated that I will look at the material that the member refers to and discuss it with them. On the whole point of whether or not Conawapa is a good deal for Manitoba, we believe that it has gone through the proper process, determining the financial side of it, Mr. Speaker, as being a very viable project, and something that has never happe ned befor e , ther e is a comple te

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4101 environmental review taking place of both the Conawapa dam structure itself and the Bipole Ill, which will carry the power south to Ontario. Mr. Edwards: I remind the minister that this government gives Manitoba Hydro a monopoly. On what basis does this minister defend a state ment twice in this pamphlet, that the environmental impacts of Conawapa are minimal as fact-purporting to be fact-w hen the environmental impact review has not even begun? Why will he not give his words about- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr.

Downey: Mr. Speaker, unlike all previous activities carried out by Manitoba Hydro on northern development, we are going through a complete environmental review process for licensing of the work that is being proposed by Manitoba Hydro, something that has never happened before. As it relates to the expression of what the Hydro management feel in the document which has been circulated, Mr. Speaker, I said I would refer to it. I would see if it is in fact in any way inappropriate and improper. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, when the minister concludes, as he no doubt will when he reviews the pamphlet, that Manitoba Hydro has improperly set out to undercut the environmental review process, will he ensure that in the next monthly billing of Man itoba Hydro a simi lar piec e from the environmental perspective be sent, giving the other opinion to set the record straight, that not all Manitobans are- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The honourable member has put his question. Mr.

Downey: What I have the biggest disappointment in is the liberal Party in this Legislature, in this province, solidly opposed to a project that will provide some $700 million in bottom-line profits to Manitoba Hydro, the creation of some 22,600 person years of jobs to build and develop the project, after it has gone through a complete and total review, both on the financial side and the environmental side, Mr. Speaker. I am extremely disappointed.

I am sure that the previous forerunners of this Liberal Party, who were responsible for rural electrification that drove this rural economy, that made Manitoba what it is today-1 think they should be extremely disappointed and would be extremely disappointed in the approach taken by this current Liberal Party. Crop Insurance Big Game/Waterfowl Damage Ms. Ro sann Wowchuk (Swan River ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Agriculture. The minister has admitted that there are many inadequacies, some of which have been addressed. The problem of hail damage is one.

If a farmer has hail damage, he will get adjustments so that his or her average is not dragged down . Howev er, farmers who have no control over big game and waterfowl are not being treated the same. Can the minister give this House his assurance that the same adjustments will be made so that farmers' averages will not be dragged down because of wildlife, big game or waterfowl damage? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, we discussed this question in Estimates, and I assured the member that we were going to take that question forward to the national signatories committee for a ruling on it Canada-wide as to how we can deal with those particular situations that are to the betterment of the producer. That process is underway. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the minister says it is before the signatories committee. Can he intervene on behalf of these farmers since he was able to intervene for lentils when there was a mistake by government, and there was too much coverage?

Can he intervene for these farmers who have no consequence, no control over the damages? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, in both the case of waterfowl and large animal damage, compensation is paid in the year that the damage occurs. That rule still applies, and the member is talking about the impact on long-term yields that apply to the producer. All that I can assure the member is that I will ask the signatories committee for a ruling on it as we asked the signatories committee for a ruling on the lentil question. Ms.

Wowchuk: There are other people in crop insurance who are having problems and there are those who are not in crop insurance before GRIP came in. Will the minister give these people a chance to prove their case if they have records of their good crop rather than doubting that their

41 02 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 records are accurate? These people have sound records and the minister i&- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, with regard to that question, there is a province-wide crop insurance review ongoing with 1 0 members appointed from all over the province. A member from her area is on that, and they will be reporting and making recommendations plus many, many questions that are being brought forward by the producers across this province in the numerous hearings held by the committee.

Federal Trade Tribunal Manitoba Cabinetmakers Mr. Reg Alcock (Osb orne) : Mr. Speaker pnterjection) Tempted as I am to ask why and sit down, I think I will preface it with a question. Mr. Speaker, some time ago I brought before this House a case of three Manitoba cabinetmakers who have, as a result of an inequitable application of tax law federal ly, been denied some $500,000 in rebates. When I raised this question with the Premier (Mr. Filmon), he said the Department of Finance was looking into it and would act to assist these three cabinetmakers.

I would like to ask the Minister of Finance: What action he has taken on their behalf? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the three cabinetmakers, or at least the person who is representing the group, we have engaged in some discussion with federal revenue individuals. We have also sent a strongly worded letter of request that the federal government reconsider its decision, and we are awaiti ng a reply from that letter. Mr. Alcock: I am wondering if the Minister of Finance can table the letter he sent to the Minister of Revenue federally. * (1410 ) Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, I will look at the letter. On the surface, I have no problem with providing it, although I will have to look into the advisability of doing that, of tabling that one. Mr. Alcock: I am wondering if the Minister of Finance can explain to us why it has taken some nearly four months to respond to this concern. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, as I have said to the representative of the cabinetmakers, there were certain allegations that had been made, and when allegations are made, one has to determine the substance behind them. We had to, obviously, look into the history of the case.

We also had to apprise ourselves of a decision that supposedly had been made, a favourable decision, fot cabinetmakers in other parts of the country. We had to look into all of that to determine whether or not we had a legitimate request to the federal government. We have done that, and that has taken some considerable time. I can assure the member that we are not going to act unilaterally on our own, outside of the federal government, taking the positive action that he and indeed the government of Manitoba would like it to take. Social Assistance Food Allowance Mr.

Doug Marti ndale (Bur row s): This government and their philosophy of "prosperity is just right around the corner,w is repeating the same mi stakes of the Liber al and Conser vative governments during the Great Depression that had no money for human need but found great sums of money to fight a war. We now have a new food bank in lie des Chenes and Lorette, and in September there will be a food bank in Red River Community College. I would ask the Minister of Family Services: What is his government doing- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Martindale: Can the Mi nister of Family Services tell the House and the thousands of Manitobans who are forced to go to beg to food banks to survive what he is doing to make sure that they have an adequate amount of assistance so they are not forced to go to food banks? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): We have had a chance to talk about the many reform procedures that we have embarked on in social allowances this past year, and I am pleased to review them with the member.

While other provinces have not been able to increase social allowance benefits, we have increased our benefits by 3.6 percent. We created a new program this year for the disabled at a cost of some $8 million to the

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 41 03 government of Manitoba, where there is a $60 supplement every month. We have also-and I recall the member's hardy support for changing the tax credits to allow them to flow on a monthly basis. We have also increased the liquid assets exemptions to put us in line with what other provinces are doing. There has been a considerable amount of work done in the whole area of social allowances this year to provide more income for those unfortunate people who are on social allowances.

As well, we have passed through the system the GST rebate, and I remind the member that the federal government has recently come out with some new programs to revise the family allowance situation for families in Manitoba. Blll70 Justification Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, there is one area where the government is not bringing in improvement but Is actually bringing in something that is regressive, and that is Bill 70.

Why is this minister going ahead with Bill 70 when the City of Winnipeg and other municipalities are objecting to the capping of welfare rates, which is anoth er examp le of provincial offloading of expenses to property taxpayers? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Well, the member ch ooses to misrepresent Bill 70 here in the Legislature. The bill does two things. It sets a standardized rate across the province, and it provides equal access to the program for all of Manitoba.

I would remind the member that the report brought to government by the SARC committee was made up of Councillor Gilroy from the City of Winnipeg, officials of UMM and MAUM and their organizations. They brought a report to government, and we are acting on it and cu rrently quite actively with members of that SARC committee. The member chooses to talk about rates in the city of Winnipeg and other municipalities. Those rates have not been set. That is the purpose of the ongoing meetings with the SARC committee, and Bill 70 does not address the rate question in any way, shape or form. Mr.

Martindale: Why is the Minister of Family Services going against the advice of the SARC committee which recommended municipalities be allowed to exceed the minimum provincial rates, instead refusing to cost-share anything above those new rates which are already inadequate? In the case of the city of Winnipeg, the city rates are much higher In many categories than the new provincial rates are going to be. Why is this minister forcing the city to choose between punishing recipients or punishing property taxpayers? Mr. Gll leshammer: Agai n, the member is misrepresenting Bill 70.

The legislation that is proposed does not have to do with rates at all. I would remind the member that the City of Winnipeg has input on the SARC committee and is meeting with our officials on that particular subject. The City of Winnipeg, other municipalities and the provincial government have rates for many, many specific things across the spectrum, and the City of Winnipeg, of course, as other municipalities, have set those rates and are responsible for only 20 percent of the cost of those rates. Senior levels of government, whether it be the province or the federal government, pay 80 percent of those costs.

Thompson General Hospital Mammography/Chemotherapy Services Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Some two weeks ago, our Health critic raised the concern in this House about the stat us of chemo therapy, mammography and the specialists' clinic at the Thompson General Hospital. Mr. Speaker, these are all valuable northern community services, and the hospital has indicated that unless it receives word soon from the provincial government it will have to cease the operation of those services within the next month and a half.

I would like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs whether he has discussed this matter with the Health minister and whether he can now announce a commit ment on beh alf of the provi ncial government to maintain those valuable services right In northern Manitoba. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affttlrs): Mr. Speaker, unl ike the previous administration, this Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchar d), whet her it is the provision of dialysis machines in Thompson, the provision of specialists in Thompson from some less than a dozen to some 20 doctors in Thompson in our term of office , we are committed to providing services in the North.

410 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 As far as the direct question is concerned, I will take It as notice for the Minister of Health. Mr. Ashton: Well, in fact, Mr. Speaker, will the government be doing what it did in the case of kidney dialysis where the Kidney Foundation provided a dialysis machine, and they provided the funding that helps provide the operating of it-will they do the same now for chemotherapy and for the mammo graphy unit, which was the result of fundraising efforts by the community of Thompson which raised more than $300,000 for that badly needed medical equipment in Thompson?

Will they support the community of Thompson? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, we have demonstrated our sup port for the city of Thompson with a downtown revitalization program , unable to be provided by the previous administration. As far as the question specifically is concerned, I will take it as notice for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchar d). Highway Construction Program Northern Manitoba Mr. Stave Ashton (Thompson}: Finally, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Northern Affairs also be relating concerns of many northerners to the Mi nister of Hi ghways and Transportation (Mr.

Driedger) about inadequacies in terms of highways construction, most particularly the horrendous situation with 391 , where there are almost daily accidents on that highway, while the minister has budge ted high ways construction budgets for virtually everywhere else in the province, except that particular area? Wi ll he intervene on behalf of nor ther n Manitobans in that area? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs}: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the member that this government, whether it is highways, whether it is hydro provision for our northern communities, whatev er areas, has carried out with limited income, in fact revenues that have been flat, programs in a very responsible manner and will continue to do so. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. .. (1 420) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before we move into Committee of Supply, I wonder whether or not you would determine whether there is a will to waive private members' hour. Mr.

Speaker: Is It the will of the House to waive private members' hour? No, leave is denied. Mr. ManneS8: Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent of the Ho,use to waive the Estimates order. What I propose today, after consultations with the opposition House leaders, is that the Estimates of the Department of Justice and the Aboriginal Ju stice Inquiry be considered next in sequence after Education and before Urban Affairs. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to alter the sequence to bring Justice and the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry forward? (Agreed] Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) In the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs, and for Seniors Directorate; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacq ua

y) in the Chair for the Department of Justice. .. (1 440) COMMmEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau}: Or der, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of Northern Affairs. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been considering item 4.(

c) Aboriginal Development Programs on page 13 6 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass-pass . (interjection)That is Resolution 11 2. Resolution 11 2: RESOL VED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,956,600 for Northern Affairs, Native Affairs Secretariat, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 93. Shall the resolution pass?

June 2, 1992 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4105 Mr. EliJah Harper (Rupertsland): Yes, I think we stopped here last night to further consider the Estimates in this regard and the Native Secretariat. I wanted to ask some questions on the Aboriginal Jus tice Inquiry, because it is part of the Native Secretariat. I think those issues are being discussed today in the Chamber. I think it would probably be more appropria te to discuss those with the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae).

But I would ask the minister to consider the direction that we are heading in terms of aboriginal people getting the recognition of the inherent right to self-government. As you know, the all-party task force on the Constitution has recommended that the inherent right to self-government be recognized in the Canadian Constitution. I would ask the Minister of Native Affairs to support that direction in terms of recognizing that aboriginal people do have the right to self-government.

We have asked continually of the government to pursue that and also to establish a separate or parallel justice system for aboriginal people. I would ask the minister to support that direction. I would welcome his comments on that. I know that this process is going to take some time, but I think that is a goal that we are trying to achieve. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will be brief.

Our government's position has been put forward through the task force report to the constitutional series of meetings that are taking place, that being the inherent right to self-government for aboriginal people within the Canadian Constitution. Number 2, our position has well been stated as it relates to a separate justice system, one which would take the support and move by the federal government to accomplish. At this point we have not got that agreement to, in fact, establish, and so it is not being proceeded with. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the resolution pass? Pass. Page 13 7, item 5.

Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Northern Communities $2,379,600. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one of your objectives is to provide funding for the departmental capital infrastructure program. Can the minister tell us what capital infrastructure programs are in place and what are the amounts for each program? Mr. Downey: It has been the responsibility of Northern Affairs over the past number of years and the member for Rupertsland would be familiar with this.

In our nonstatus communities, we have carried out the responsibility to upgrade, to continue to upgrade the water supply systems, the sewage systems where capable, fire system supports, generally infrastructure in the broad sense of the word, to generally improve the quality of living conditions in many of our communities. We currently have approximately $95 million invested in our Northern Affairs communities. This further is an appropri ation to continue to both upgrade and to complement that which is already out there. Mr.

Gaudry: You also say to transfer the responsibility of project delivery of infrastructure to the commun ity. What communi ties have been passed on the responsibility of project delivery? Mr. Downey: Mr. Dep uty Chai rperson, all communities have that capability, and we, quite frankly, encourage it. Mr. Gaudry: I know that all communities have the capabilities, but what communities have been given the responsibility to look after the delivery of their own infrastructures? Mr. Downey: They all have the ability to carry it out, and as far as those that have been given that, they have all been given it.

It is a matter of some maybe notwant ingto carry outthe delivery themselves. So we start from a basis of 56 communities have the capabilities. How many have not participated in wanting to do that? I will get the number for the member. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, to further complete that answer: Out of 94 projects that were delivered this year, 58 were deliver ed by the com muni ties participating, or 62 percent. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 5.(

a) Northern Communities. Mr. Oscar Lath lln (The Pas): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I only had a couple of questions on Capital, and I was interested in getting information from the minister on capital projects. I know, I am sorry I was a little bit late for the meeting. I think he may have explained it already, and if he has, I apologize. But I would still like to have the minister explain to the committee the budget allocation: how it is

4106 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 carried out; what is the criteria that is being used by the department when allocating capital funds to the communities; and also, what autonomy the local communities have in the administration of capital projects? Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the budget pr ocess is the de partm ent mee ts with the communities to determine the kinds of projects that they want to carry out. The level of service is based on population plus upgrading in a responsible way the level of service that each community has.

We have different levels of service to different levels for di ff eren t com mu nities based on basically population. We, as I said, meet with the communities on an annual basis to go over thei r requests and determine the availability of funds to, in a balanced way, bring the services up to certain standards. Mr. Lathlln: Let us take Moose Lake, for example. Right now that community, I think from the treaty you signed, there is sewer and water infrastructure being installed from the federal side, and I also understand that there is some infrastructure work being carried out from the community council side.

When I visited the community council last time around, they related to me some of the concerns, issues and problems that they perceived to be the bottom line of our discussion at the last meeting of the community council-was that they were not happy with the way the decision-making process is carried out. That is to say that when, for example, work is going to be tendered out, practically everything is done by the department, although I guess the commu nity council, mayor and council have some sort of input into the decision making as to who is going to get the contract.

Perhaps I could ask the minister to explain to the committee how that process works-the invitation of bids and how the contracts are decided, like who should get it, et cetera. • (1 450) Mr. Downey: I could get a little political on this, but I normally do not with my colleague. I guess when he refers to Moose Lake, under the previous government very little had been carried out on behalf of the community of Moose Lake, and there was a tremendous need there. We have responded to that need, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Again, I am pleased that we have. Last year there was some $300,000 spent on sewer and wate r.

The community was in discussion with the department as to the selection of the people to tender. Apparently the co mmu nity wanted someone different, but at the end analysis the lowest tender was the one that was accepted, which we think is appropriate and proper. This year, again, remember the party and the government that are doing this, one that he decides to sit in opposition to and by the way voted against when it came to the budget, we are spending some $275,000 on a continuation on Phase II of the upgrade for Moose Lake, and that was discussed with the council.

The council agreed and accepted the lowest tender. Last year the council was not in agreement, because we accepted the lowest tender and they wanted someone else. This year we still accepted the lowest tender and it was in agreement with the community council. So, I do not mind admitting that there have been some differences. The point is, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, where would they have been if we had not been in government and proceeded with this project? Would they have still been sitting there without the supports as they sat for so many years under the New Democratic Party? Mr.

Lathlln: The min iste r can get pol itical whenever he wants; nobody can stop him. Ali i am interested in doing in this committee is to get information and relay some of the concerns that were passed on to me by those constituents. So it is my responsibility to ask questions of the minister and, hopefully, get answers . If he wants to get political, I mean that is his prerogative.

Getting back to the capital process, the infrastructure that is being installed, I understand that is only the base infrastructure, meaning that only the main lines are installed and any links to individual homeowner s are left up to the individual homeowners. But if there are any government buildings within a community, those are linked up to the main line. Is that right? Mr. Downey: Yes. Mr. Lathlln: Then why install a line in a community when individual homeowners are not able to link up to the main line? I mean, that was the question that they put to me.

They said, you know, Oscar, this line is no good to us because we cannot afford to hook our homes to the main line. The only buildings

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 41 07 that are hooked up to that line are those government buildings. Mr. Downey: I guess if the member is advocating this, does he want me to stop Phase II and not proceed with the main line. Is that what he is recommending to this committee, that I not proceed with this project? Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what I am asking is: Are there any plans to hook up individual houses to the main line? Why install a line there if nobody can afford to hook up to it other than those government buildings that are there? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, what I want the member to say is that he supports the installation of this project. If he does, then I am prepared to proceed. Is he saying that he does not want us to do it? Mr. Lathlln: I am asking the min ister some questions and then he comes back with a question. I think the minister has a responsibility to answer the questions that I am asking instead of trying to be cheeky about it and turning around and asking me questions.

He knows darn well that I support whatever development that will enhance the aboriginal com mu nities in the North or any community, whether they are aboriginal or nonaboriginal. He has seen me speak out when I was a chief. I spoke for my constituents when I was a chief. I negotiated with governmen ts. He has seen me here in the Legislature for almost two years now, and I have never been shy to speak up for my constituents. Of course, I will support whatever development that is being planned that will enhance the lives and the well-being of those people who live in the North.

I just do not appreciate the minister's cheeky attitude, you know, when I ask these questions. Maybe he should answer my questions now. Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I apologize. I certainly did not intend to be cheeky. I was trying to get information from the member. I am pleased that he does support it because development is important, and it is important to the long-term living conditions of the commu nity that he speaks. We are working out with the CMHC as to how we might be able to support, in some way, the hookups of some of the houses, because I do not disagree with them.

It would not make a lot of sense to put in the central line infrastructure and then have no one hook up to it. We are trying to work that out, but one has to be aware of the fact that there are additional dollars that have to be put in either through CMHC and/or from government. If you do it in one community, you have to be prepared to do it in others. I guess what I am telling the member is, I hope to be able to see an agreement worked out so that the majority of people, particularly the elders and most people whom we expect to live in those areas, have a lifestyle and a quality of life that is acceptable.

That, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again is why this government has spent some $575,000 in the Moose Lake commu nity to help give them the upgrade. So we will try and make sure we act responsibly and complete the circle. Mr. Lathlln: I think it was an opportune time for this government to take advantage of the Department of Indian Affairs going into Moose Lake to spend some capital funding for the Moose Lake Indian Band when they decided to fund the sewer and water project in Moose Lake.

Of course , it made a lot of sense for this government, in terms of fiscal responsibility, to tie in federal dollars so that not only the treaty side gets sewer and water but the Metis side get theirs as well. But, as I said, the minister can get political all he wants whenever he wants to, but I think if I were in his shoes at the time that the federal dollars were rolling into Moose Lake for sewer and water I would have probably taken the same action that his governm ent has.

Really, if his government had not taken any action to take advantage of the Indian Affairs' funding that went into Moose Lake, then the Metis side would not have had any sewer and water installation at all. So really I do not think he had any choice if he was going to support the Metis side to get sewer and water. So I thought I would just make that point to the minister.

My last question, I guess, to the minister is: When does he see or is planning at what stage in the future would we see the community of Moose Lake, after arrangements have been worked out with CMHC for those individual homeowners, to be hooked up to the main lines? Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I can make no commitment on that. I guess it is still being worked on. Again, the member refers to the federal monies flowing in. We did take advantage of that opportunity to go to the Metis comm unity with the sewer and water, and that is what this is part of is a

410 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 federal-provincial agreement with both the band and the community. I will pass on the compliments to the Prime Minister that he is happy with the federal Conservatives for their support of Moose Lake as he is happy with this government's support in supporting the community, if he would like me to. I would maybe be a little presumptuous in doing that, but if he wants me to, I can refer those compliments to the federal government. * (1 500) Mr. Lathlln: That is all. Mr. Gaudry: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I see there is a decrease of $1 00,000 in the Community Access and Resource Roads. Could the minister tell us why? Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it was the deferral of a resource road for this year. Mr. Gaudry: Which one? Mr. Downey: The one that Is not going to be built this year. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is like his vacant position. He Is going to skate around the issue again and not answ er the question, like the member for The Pas says. Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is the one at Peonan Point. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 5.(

a) Northern Communities $2,379,600-pass. 5.(

b) Community Access and Resource Roads $235,000-pass. Resolution 113 : RESOLV ED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,614 ,600 for Northern Affa irs, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 93. Mr. Gaudry: Just in closing, I would like to thank the minister and we are looking forward to the information that we have asked in the last few hours of Estimates that they will be provided within the next 24 hours. I would like to thank the staff for their co-oper ation and appreciate what has been accomplished in these Estimates. Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson : Is the resolution passed? The resolution is accordingly passed. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs is item 1. (

a) Minister's Salary. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item. Item 1 .(

a) Minister's Salary $1 0,300-pass. Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just again, I want to acknowledge the work of the staff and the committee in the Estimates today. I put it on the record last night, but I will do it again. I want to thank the work and effort of Brenda Kustra who is leaving the Department of Northern Affairs to go to the Director General's job with Indian Affairs Canada, and we wish her well in her future endeavours. Thank you. Mr.

Deputy Chair per son: Resolution 10 9: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,077,800 for Northern Affairs, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 93-pass. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates for Seniors Directorate. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the comme ncement of the next set of Estimates? Recess 1 0 minutes. SENIOR S DIRECTORATE Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): We are now commencing consideration of the Estimates for the Seniors Directorate. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.

It is my pleasure at this time to discuss the activities of the Seniors Directorate over the past year and present a brief overview of their coming year. It has been my first complete year as minister responsible for Seniors, and I am endeavouring, with the assistance of the Seniors Directorate, to continue enhancing the quality of life for Manitoba's senior citizens. Together the directorate and I are striving to provide increased opportunities for seniors to participate at all levels of the community.

We have been actively soliciting their input in the decision-making process which impacts on their lives and their lifestyle. As a large, knowledgeable and expanding segment of our society, they have

June 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 41 09 an impor tant role to play in Manitoba's economic and community life. Studies show us this growth will continue, and by the 21 st Century seniors will comprise a majority of the population. The fact supports my belief that we mu st conti nue ou r effor ts in exploring and addressing the existing issues and needs of senior citizens in our society and anticipating the changing needs and expectations in coming years.

Through the Seniors Directorate and its outreach offices in The Pas and in Portage Ia Prairie, we are providing seniors with impr oved levels of access to government programs and services designed to meet their needs. By having visible, accessible staff in northern and rural communities, we have been able to provide informational, advisory and educational assistance and support to seniors. Our Seniors Information Line, which commenced operation in September of '89, has seen a steady response from the pu blic . It receives approximately, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, 150 calls a month from seniors in all parts of the province. The aim of our information line has been to minimize the number of calls that seniors are required to make to access information. This often necessitates staff making a number of calls to find the solutions. The difference is that the calls are made by staff rather than by senio rs . Dur ing the past year, the directorate has investigated a wide range of issues at the request of these seniors, such as housing, health, transportation and finances.

In our efforts to identify and meet the needs of Manitoba's seniors, the directorate staff has been consulting with groups and organizations such as the CPR retired employees association, Canadian veterans association, Manitoba Society of Seniors, Age and Opportunity and the St. James Seniors group, to just name a few. They have also been strengthening their contact within the multicultural community through working with organizations such as Ethos Multicultural Seniors Coalition of Manitoba, Hindu Seniors society, the Filipino seniors and the Franco-Manitoban seniors.

This effort has been carried out on a prov ince-wide basis, as evidenced by their meetings with rural groups such as Brandon Senior s for Seniors Co-op, Interlake regional seniors council, Gimli seniors, Steinbach New Horizon seniors and the Flin Flon seniors. The directorate is working with the native seniors groups such as Opasquiak Reserve seniors and the Ke Ki Nan seniors project as part of their effort to ensure that voices of all Manitoba's seniors are heard.

These are only examples of the various seniors organizations and groups that my staff and I have met with over this past year in our efforts to interact effectively with our seniors. The directorate has been actively maintaining and expanding its contact within the government. As a member of various comm ittees, it has been working with the Departments of Heal th, Housin g, Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Justice, Family Services, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and Education on special seniors-orientated projects.

For example, as a mem ber of the steering comm ittee with Health in the assessm ent of services to seniors, we have been working to ensure health care issues are being addressed adequately. My staff has been worki ng with the Multiculturalism Secretariat and Culture, Heritage and Citizenship on multicultural seniors issues.

The directorate is chairing a committee comprised of represen tatives from seniors, community and gove rnmen t, which looks at transpor tation proposals. * (1 520) The directorate meets with federal, provincial and territorial counterparts on a regular basis and has ongoing dialogue concerning new initiatives taking place in the provinces. The directorate has planned, organized and facilitated two conferences on elder abuse in the past year. These conferences were our response to requests received from seniors and service providers for more education.

The first conference in Winnipeg attracted 250 service providers and seniors. The success of this first conference and a demand for more information led us to organize a second conference in Brandon. This conference focusing on rural perspective drew 15 0 people with 25 representatives from the RCMP. At this conference , the director began working on a crucial area of elderly abuse protocols. They will be working with seniors, service providers and government representatives over the coming year to develop protocols for use throughout the province.

41 10 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 Our major initiative over the past year was the production and promotion of an information package on financial elderly abuse. This package was produced by working in partnership with the federal government and with the Canadian Bankers' Association. In these years of restraint, it is vital that we, as a government, work closely with other levels of government and with the corporate sector on mutual concerns. I am proud to say that this video, which was named Standing Up for Yourse H, has been very well received across Manitoba and Canada.

Due to demands for the video by other prov inces, we have set up a mechanism with the Queen's Printer to allow senior grou ps, organizations and banks outside of Manitoba, to purchase the video. Inside Manitoba, there has been no charge to any of our senior organization, and we tried to address and send out to as many other organizations until that supply ran out. I must say that it was done in both Canadian languages. I know my member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) appreciates the "franc;ais" and I did too. I think the actors and actresses who were involved in it were from, I know, an area quite dear to the St.

Boniface member's heart, who did a very, very good job and ought to be commen ded on it. This video package has indeed proven to be a valuable tool in assisting seniors in recognizing and preventing financial elder abus e . The fo ur scenarios in the video present seniors in a positive take-charge style which seniors can relate to. It reinforces the belief that seniors can indeed have control over their own lives. This past year has been, in fact, an extremely busy one for the directorate and its staff. This list of activities is only the briefest listing of some of its highlights.

With the budget being presented to this comm ittee, the directorate will continue to build on these actions, as well as undertake some new initiatives. The highly successful Seniors Information Line will continue its operation as one of the most direct vehicles for interaction with seniors and the general public. The directorate will continue to interact with other government departments in identification, exploration, and resolution of issues of concern to all our seniors.

A specific initiative being undertaken in this area concerns working with govern ment departments and seniors to ensure emer gency measur es information is readily available to the seniors community. The forest fires several years ago indicated to us that more information and education for seniors in this area is needed. Seniors should have the security of knowing hOw to be prepared should the need arise.

In our attempt to reach all sectors of the seniors communi ty, we will be producing and distributing two of the di recto rate 's mo st succes sful publications, Questions to Ask Your Doctor and Pharma cis t on Taking Med ication; and our Manitoba Seniors Directorate Information Guide into the Cree and Saulteaux languages. These brochures, How to Recognize and Avoid Financial Abuse; and also What is Power of Attorney; and Home Repair and Door-to-Door Sales, will also be produced and distribut ed in the same two langua ges, as well as French and English languages.

The direc torate will be working to establish co-operative partnerships with the private sector in the development of informational materials and the prov ision of services specifically designed to meet senior needs. We believe that with these partnerships, we can be more fiscally responsible and provide better services. This will include liaising with business, the corporate commun ity, and professional groups to beco me familiar with services and produc ts currently available to seniors, and to explore the possible development of new and innovative services for seniors.

The directorate will begin to work with service pro viders, law enforcement agencies, and senior organizations to develop effective protocols concerning elderly abuse. It will also continue its efforts to distribute the educational and informational video package on financial abuse of the elderly in order to increase public awareness of this problem.

The staff has also been actively engaged in a partnership with commu nity groups, in co-ordinating special seniors events in Winnipeg, as well as in Brandon, Souris, Morde n, and as part of the celebrations this month of June, all continue to work with the volunteers throughout the province. As a matter of fact, the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) and I had the honour of attending the one in Souris this morning,

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 41 11 and the people are looking forward to the many activities planned in that area. It is a fact that as our population ages in the coming decades, seniors' issues and concerns will gain in importance and public awareness . The successful resolution of elderly abuse, housing, health, financial stability, transportation and other social issues impacting directly on our seniors will be essential to the future well-being of our province, its economy and the quality of life we can offer. I am confident, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the Seniors Directorate will succeed in meeting these challenges, and we will accomplish it through the strategies and policies developed In co-operation between the seniors' community, the corporate sector and the government. The Seniors Directorate has been and will continue to work with our most important partners, the seniors of Manitoba. We are committed to ensuring thatthey are full participants in the decision making and shaping of the com mu nity and contributing to its advancement for the benefit of all. I thank you for the time, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister for those remarks. Does the critic from the official opposition party, the honourable member for Broadway, have an opening statement? Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): I appreciate the honourable minister's opening statement, and in reply, I would like to say that everybody, including us here at this table, will sooner or later, if we live long enough, become senior citizens. We do not grow old simply by living, we grow old by losing interest in living.

If we have enough interest in all the activities in life, maybe we could postpone that aging process, despite our physical appearance. The seniors needs can be summarized in the needs of any human being. In my estimation, there are certain ranges of values, of human needs, value preferences and in my order of priority the highest value of needs will be the need for the quality of life. That is the highest-l ife itself, not only in terms of its duration, because you can have a long life but full of pain and misery, but in its quality as well.

The quality of life of a person-we have five fingers, and I will use my five fingers to identify the aspects of a good quality of life for anyone, including senior citizens. One of my, what do you call this finger, the thumb-to me that is the spiritual needs of any human being. If your heart is pure, your mind is clean, you have good virtues, that is the best foundation of any kind of life. It is the inner righteousness of the inner being in us that we should guard against, so we should stick to what is true and abide by faithfulness in all our relationships.

The index finger to me stands for physiological health needs, because all through life we have need for health and this means taking care of our body and mind.

The physiological needs of human beings implies that only the negative aspects, protecting us from certain vicissitudes of life-in the case of senior citizens, this will include protection, for example, from all kinds of abuses, physical; physiologic al; financ ial ; protection of over-medication, sometimes indulged in by some of our medic al pr actit ioners; protection against ignorance about how to live our retirement life in terms of advance planning for such an eventuality.

On the positive side, it means some knowledge about diets, nutrients and requirements for our physical body, that we should not only know what to eat but we should be selective in those things that we should eat. In addition, the physical body will also need rest, exercise, sleep and leisure activities. • (1 530) The next finger to me stands for the mental aspect of our life, the intellectual capabilities that need to be challenged all the tim e. Even senior citizens-they may be aging physically, but their mind may stay alert if they know how.

There are many challenging opportunities that they could engage, like enrolling in some evening classes, educational opportu nities in schools, and they should be engaged in some sport activities if their physical body will permit it, and also in some leisure and recreational activities. Then there is the emotional safety needs of a hum an being. He must be under the close protection of the network of family relationships around him. This means that he must be in familiar surroundings where he or she can feel safe at home and live life to the fullest, that he may live life more abundantly.

Another finger will be the social needs of the human being. The social aspects of a human being have two faces: how we regard ourselves, our inner estimation of our own self. This is what they call self-esteem, self-respect, how you regard yourself. There are people who have no respect for them selves because of ce rta in adve rse

41 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 experiences in their childhood. That is our own self-estimation, our self-esteem. The other aspect is how other people regard us because in other societies, some seniors, some elderly people are respected member s of society. They are the ones who assume positions of leader ship in their com mun ities , In their governmen t, In their structure. On the other hand, in some societies they feel they are surpluses; they are not needed; they are not welcome. It is a stigma to be old and to be helpless as if they were useless in life.

This is the worst that could happen if we have such an attitude towards our elders. Finally, the last finger is the financial adequacy. This means that you must have adequate income sources. H you have worked through your life, you must have some private pension income. If you have not, there is the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security, and of course our financial supplement provided by the provincial govern ment, the 55 Plus program benefit to those who have no other source of income. Aside from these spiritual and physiological needs there is also what we call safety needs of people.

They must have the proper environmental setting in which they live. The living condition of their own home, the living arran gements must be a very familiar setting to them, and the most familiar setting that any senior can have is the home for the children, the home they had reared and taken care of, where the children had grown up. That family home to them is part of themselves. In the absence of the ability, financially or physically, to take care of that home, there must be assistance from the government so that they could, as long as they can endure, as long as they can withstand, stay in their own home.

This is only possible by governme nt-provided, adequate home care assistance program s. There must be support coming from the government in that they will provide information. For example, if I am an old senior citizen and I am staying in my little shack, I need some yard work to be done, I can call someone and pay someone and he will do the yard work. He will shovel the snow and I can pay him. Then I can stay in my home. These are the kinds of support that our senior citizens need.

If I get sick, I can phone someone and somebody will come to help me, to carry me up to my bed, like a home care worker who should be available even on call duty, like a nurse, on call. If I have a leaking faucet and if I have a plum bing probl em, then I can call someone, then the plumber will come and help me fix my home. This will be information as well as services provided not only by governm ent, but also by some voluntary groups in the commun ity who want to do good work for the rest of humanity. These are the safety needs.

Finally, there are the mobility needs: if you are stuck in your home, you are physically disabled, you are in a wheelchair. I have seen a constituent of mine who is in a wheelchair, and he is living in a basement and the basement is down below and he cannot-without the assistance of anybody carr ying him up from that basement, he can only move around the hallway and his room . This is like being in prison. Mobility needs are important. Facilities should be provided in the form of transportation services for senior citizens even inside the city.

Those who are living in apartments and in condom iniums by them selves should have necessary facilities to move themselves around in the community. There should also be large signs in the roads, as the Manitoba Society of Seniors have indicated in their concerned position paper 1992, and large signs that they can see for those seniors who still are able to drive motor vehicles. That could be risky for some people. There should be barrier-free entrances in all buildings, an elevator where they can lift themselves up rather than cli mb the stairways, and handrails.

When they go to the bank, they can go inside and do their business. In other words, we facilitate mobility; we facilitate safety; we facilitate their physiological and health needs; we facilitate their peak physical needs. These are all the concerns of senior citizens. We are here in order to assess how we can help our senior citizens live a full life, satisfying to themselves and to their own community. We have known, and this is statistically proven, in Canada, for example, out of approximately 24,343,000 people there are at least 2,360,000 approximately senior citizens.

That is approxima tely 1 0 or 11 percent all across Canada. In Manitoba, there are about 1 ,026,245 more or less, and out of this there are 12 1 ,880 senior citizens, approxima tely 12 percent. This is at present, 19 91 -1992. By the year 2031 , 40 years from now, these percentages will jump from 12 percent to 30 percent approximately, all senior citizens. Can you imagine the kind of aging population in our community, in our prov ince, in our

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 41 13 society? If the seniors can live their life to the fullest, this will be an entirely different kind of society that we are living in. I will stop on that and give the opportunity to our third party to give some kind of opening remarks. Mr. Deputy Cha irper son: We thank the honourable member for those comments. Does the critic for the second opposition party, the honourable member for St. Boniface, have an opening statement? Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Yes, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, first, I would like to say thank you to the minister for supplying us with his notes here and his opening statements. Also, at this time, I would like to say thank you to the minister for asking us to attend certain functions with him when we are available to do so. I think this morning was an indication of a good day with the seniors in Souris. I always appreciate being with the seniors, having been involved from Day One with the Seniors Directorate here as a critic of the opposition and the fact that in my own community from years back, I was involved with seniors.

I guess I enjoyed working with them to the fact that some day we will be there. We are a long ways from there, all of us. • (1 540) I think my involvement started with the senior home that we built in St. Boniface. It is probably one of the nicest in Manitoba, if I have to say so myself. We started in 1980, as a matter of fact, and four years later when we first turned the sod at the site. We had problems at the time with the financing of the building, but we did not despair. We started and we had fundraising. At one point, the government of the time did not want us to build, and the need was there.

We had proven that to the government at the time. We had 600 applications to prove the need of the units in St. Boniface. At that point, there were six of us and we decided we were going to go ahead with the building. The money had been authorized by CMHC for the financing, and six of us decided we were going to go ahead without the approval of the prov incial government and mortgaged our homes to do the financing of the block. It was an $8-million project. We took a chance, but we had faith in the people who were involved. It was fun doing it.

Like I say, in '82 I guess was the sod turning, and the official opening was on April 25, 19 84. I had been president of the organization from that day on until 19 87 when finally I said I had enough, give a chance to somebody else, in the interests of the seniors. I have been involved also with other organizations like Sister Clermont clinic, for example, and I think the minister is well aware of that organization. It was an organization that I was on the board of. It had a lot of seniors involved as volunteers and a couple of nurses who visited seniors in their own homes.

A lot of times these seniors, all they needed was company or to reassure them that all they needed was a checkup from a nurse maybe, rather than run to the doctor on a weekly basis, reassure them that their blood pressure was okay, and what they needed was reassurance. I think that is why when we talk about volunteers today with the seniors, and we see all these organizations now of seniors-and today the picnic in Souris again, like I say, was a success I am sure. Unfortunately, we had to come back. We could have spent the day there. We could have gone golfing, and we could have played ball with the seniors.

We looked atthe golf course. The minister and I did go look at the golf course, but we did not want the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) being jealous that we golfed all day or something like that. [interjection] No . We look forward to working with the minister-and I think with the aging population that we have not only in Manitoba, I think it is across Canada. We want to keep the seniors in their homes. We want to see them well looked after, and we want to see policies put into place, transportation, health care and every thing else. I think another positive thing that the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) has brought forward is the reform of the health care system. I think we look at it with a positive outlook on those issues, because we know that we cannot go on spending monies · without looking at it being reform ed to care for not only our seniors but our sick people. We visit the hospitals where we have people who have been there for two or three years, waiting for a bed into a personal care home. It costs a lot more to have them in the hospital. I say that from experience, because my mother was in the St. Boniface Hospital for two years where-it is not their fault-there are no activities.

But if they are placed in a place like Tache home or other personal care

41 14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 hom,s, we can see that they have activities. You keep them active and they will be looked after and not see them deteriorate mentally or physically. Like I say, I speak from experience. I go to Tache probably six or seven times a week visiting my mother and other friends who are there and giving a hand as a volunteer. I think it Is important. 1 think this is where we should encourage more people to do so. I think our younger generation have to be made aware that our seniors are the people who have made this province.

You look at what Manitoba is for us today, and I think listening to Mrs. Sharpe this morning in Souris where she mentioned, you know, we are so proud to be Manitobans, to live in Manitoba; we live in a great province. I think we have to look at our seniors and our upcoming seniors-like I look around the table here. There are none of us. We are a long way from there , but we will keep working for them. Thank you very much. Mr. Deputy Cha irper son: We thank the honourable member for those brief remarks.

At this time we would like to invite the honourable minister's staff to come forward and have the minister please introduce them. Mr. Ducharme: As the mem bers are aware , Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do not have a large staff at the Seniors Directorate, but we are like the seniors in this province, we do with what we have. I would like to introduce my Executive Director of Seniors, Kathy Yurkowski. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will move on. We are going to be dealing with page 144. Item 1. Seniors Directorate (

a) Salaries $1 32,300. Mr. Santos: I have some questions on Salaries. I am referring to the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, Appendix 1, the historical pattern. It Is page 14. The way I read this is that the legislation was approved in '88, the directorate was actu ally established in '89-90, and the initial allocation was $209,400. I use that as the base line. Then the following year, 1990-91 , this becomes $277,000. That is an addition of $67,600. That is an Increase of 32.28 percent, right? Up to this time is there only one staff? Mr.

Ducharme: No, there are two, and then we went to three in 19 91 . Mr. Santos: Then, in 1991 -92 there is an additional increase of $25,500, that makes it $302,500, but according to the adjustment here, the way 1 read it, there was a transfer here in that year on page 6. What does that mean, transfer of functions from Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, $5,000; transfer of functions from Fitness and Sport $5,000? Mr. Ducharme: That is a consOlidated grant from Sport and from Culture. That is what that is. Mr. Santos: .. . the money is coming in. Mr. Ducharme: That is correct. Mr.

Santos: Not in a personal-it was moved from Sport. Okay. Mr. Ducharme: We used to have the grants come in to the Seniors Directorate. There was one grant from Culture and one grant from Sport. Mr. Santos: So in the following year, because of that infu sion, that money came from other departments. Actually then, in reality, that $25,500 increase is less. That is only a $5,000 increase because the other $20,000 came from the other department. Mr. Ducharme: Yes, he is going to have to be more clear than what he is asking. He is going from one year to the other.

He is probably going to have to get a little more clear as long as he wants us to explain to him the changes in those two years. I could certainly clarify to him what went on, but I would like him to be a little more specific in what year he is referring to. • (1 550) Mr.

Santos: A jump from $277,000 fiscal year 19 90 to '91 , and the Adjusted Vote in 19 91 -92, that raises up to $302,500, because if the $50,000 came from Fitness and Sport and $5,000 came from Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, then the actual increase per se for Seniors Directorate-these are allocated by cabinet, by the Treasury Board, and do not come from any other department-i s actually $4,500 only, which is only a 1. 62 percent increase. Mr.

Ducharme: The reason for it is because the Seniors Directorate does not do any funding other than the video that you will notice that we did in '91-92, that jumped it up in '91 -92. The rest is just salary increases, just increments. We have not hired or changed our staff in that year. The only thing we had in '91-92, if you will notice the big change, and you will notice a big drop down

June 2, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 41 15 from '92-93, we had a video which was for $50,000. We did not produce that video. Mr. Santos: I am coming to that, because that $302,500 the pattern so far is an increase from one fiscal year to another fiscal year, a 32.28 percent increase going up. If I draw the graph here, it is going up, and then it goes just a little bit inclined, because that is up to the grant from Fitness and Sport and Citizenship, and the actual increase is $4,500. So it has hardly moved.

Then in the fiscal year 1 992-93 there is a decrease of $38,600; that is an actual 12. 76 percent decrease, reducing $302,500 to $263,900. Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , first of all, the Seniors Directorate is not a funding position. We have kept our staff the same in '91 -92, and as he knows, there was an zero increase for all staff. So we kept our staff for that particular year, and then the next year, the big difference would be the video. We did not do a video the next year. Of course, we did not increase our Seniors Directorate unless we increased our staff, and there was no increases in that year.

The feds gave us a grant for the video, and it was a one-time grant that is also built in there, and they did not give it to us the next year. Mr. Santos: Going now to the actual positions, I am not referring to persons sitting; I am referring to the positions. So you started with a managerial position, and what-administrative support or a professional/technical? Mr. Ducharme: PM 2. Mr. Santos: So you have a managerial and a professional. That is the initial year in 19 89-90. Was that increased to three positions in 1990-91 ? Mr.

Ducharme: When we got going in the first year, we decided that we needed a secretary, so that was the third position. Mr. Santos: My information in 199 1, I did some research on this; I can identify who are sitting in those positions and what their salaries are. The managerial position was Katherine. She had been all along the managerial person; $51 ,16 0 is what you mak e in 19 90-19 91 . The professional/technical person was Leanne Rowat; she makes $39,927. Mr. Ducharme: She is no longer with us. Mr. Santos: Okay, but that was the initial occupant.

Later on when you added someone, Jeannine Carr iere, she makes $25,233. The following year, this is where my question will come in, because that administrative support position's occupant salary increased by $1 ,16 7. That is 4.62 percent the following year, fiscal year 1 991-1992. A jump, in other words, from $25,233 to $26,400, that is a 4.62 percent increase. Mr. Ducharme: Yes, remember under the bill there are increment changes. Mr.Santos: The managerial position increased by $2,740, which in present day is a 5.36 percent increase, to $53,900 in the fiscal year 19 91 -92.

The real thing that conce rns me is the professional/technical position at a decrease of $1 ,227 so that the salary that was $39,927 becomes $38,700, and that was a decrease of 3.7 percent. Why? Mr. Ducharme: You have to be a little more specific on what years you are applying to. I mean, give us, first of all, what year you are applying to. You are talking about '90-91 , '91 -92-be a little more specific because we are trying to follow a line on here and I want you to be more specific. Mr. Santos: During the fiscal year 1990-91 one of the two positions in the Seniors Directorate is professional/technical.

Attached to that position is a salary of $39,927. On the records during the fiscal year 19 91 -1 992- Mr. Ducharme: Well, you notice he has gone three years now. Mr. Santos: Well, 1990-1 991 , what will be the next fiscal year?-'91-92. Because our fiscal year ends- Mr. Ducharme: Oh, I know what he is getting to. Mr. Santos: -March 31 , and then it begins again and it straddles the next calendar year. Mr. Ducharme: I know what the member is talking about now. He is talking about the actual money paid to that position for that year. That is the amount paid for that position for the whole year.

We did not have the person for the whole year. We started with a new person part way through the year, and we had a space where we did not have anybody there. So that is why when you look at the position you are looking at the total amount for that year. We did not have a person for the total year. That is why it is down on that particular position. Mr. Santos: For how many months did that person occupy the position?

41 16 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 Mr. Ducharme: November to March. It was vacant November to March. Mr. Santos: Vacant. All right, and it was not filled until when? Mr. Ducharme: The person started last week. Mr. Santos: So it is in the current fiscal year. Now, focusing on that position alone- Mr. Deputy Chairperson : Could I ask the honourable member to bring his mike up and make it a little easier for Hansard to pick it up? Mr. Santos: Okay.

Suddenly, there was a jump in salary compared to the other two, the managerial and the administrative support position, so that the increase in dollar terms is $7,400 from the initial base. That, in my computation, amounted to 19 .12 percent increase because that position now, professional/technical, attached to it is $46,1 00. Mr. Ducharme: I am informed that, first of all, when you hire somebody-and we told you there was never a ceiling in that position, and the ceiling in that position was $46,000.

I was informed it was brought up to that maximum ceiling position by Treasury during that course of the year, and that Is why that amount was brou ght up to that. Mr. Santos: Is the honourable minister telling me that someone who is new in the position is started at the ceiling rather than at the lower of the ranges? Mr. Ducharme: No, I am not telling you that. * (1 600) Mr. Santos: What is the minister then telling me? How can he explain this 19 .12 percent increase from the original salary of the position that was vacated from November to March, and then when It is filled up, the salary jumps 19 .12 percent?

Mr. Ducharme: First of all, if I am not being clear, remem ber I was not there during that particular year, so I will give you the information I ha ve. When Leanne, you mentioned her, was in, we were never allotted enough for her salary. We always had to borrow from the Operating. Treasury Board, when they saw that they did not allow us enough for that position, brought in enough to bring it up to that level, and that is why that increased. We were taking the difference always from the Operating to pay her salary.

However, during that year, I am informed, Treasury Board authorized the department to show the salary at that high level that we were paying her at, instead of taking it out of the Operating. Mr. Santos: Can I have the name of the person who took the position that was vacated by Leanne? Mr. Ducharme: The personnel in that position is Sharron Wilford. She went through the competition of the Civil Service Comm ission and she was brought over from Health. Mr. Santos: Is that spelled W-i-1- Mr. Ducharme: W-i-1-f-o-r-d. Mr. Santos: Sharron, with a double "r," from Health. Mr. Ducharme: Yes. Mr.

Santos: She must have some seniority with the govern ment or someth ing. What was her salary that she vacated in Health? Mr. Ducharme: First of all, Personnel tells us what we hire them at, according to their qualifications. We do not set that; the minister or the staff do not set that. I think her prev ious salary was in the '40s and that is what we paid her. Mr. Santos: I am just disturbed with this, because while one person was occupying the position, the salary increased by 3.7 percent, and when another person occupied this same position, the salary jumped 19 .12 percent.

What is so special about the circumstances? (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Ducharme: No, I explained to the member that they paid the difference in the salary out of the Operating. The salary was always paid and it was brought up to the PM 2 level that is instructed by the Civil Service Commission. So what we did was, apparently, and I can only give you the information I have , they always had to borrow from the Operating to pay that salary, but the person in that position was always paid at that level.

Howe ver, a portion was taken out of the Operating to make up the difference. Apparently, the department went back to Treasury Board, and Treasury Board authorized that the salary be established without taking it out of the Operating. Mr. Santos: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am not asking how they come up with the money. I am just questioning the variation in the salary attached to the position, from a very static, stationary salary level and then suddenly promotion salary-wise in terms of salary increase.

June 2, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 41 17 Mr. Ducharme: I do not know what I have to do to get it clear, but the salary was always paid, except that a portion of it came from the Opera ting. There was no increase in the salary, and I want that on the record . The salary was a combination of the salary and taking out of the Operating. When it was originally set up they did no t kno w what classification they would have to get approval from Treasury Board on, so what they did was they paid some out of the Operating and they paid a salary.

The person who came in in the position maintained the same type of salary. Mr. Santos: The honourable minister then can tell me the salary that was attached to the same professional/technical position during the fiscal year 19 91 -92, regar dless of whether the position was occupied or vacant. How much was the salary attached to that position? Mr. Ducharme: We do not have that salary in our records. I can getthatfor the member, but I can say to the member that the same PM 2 level was maintained, combining the operating amount you took from the operating and salaries. So I will get that for the member.

What I will do for the member is I will get who the person was in that year, I will get what we paid them, what we paid them out of the operating, and what we paid for the salary for all the years for that particular person. Mr. Santos: I am not concerned who is occupying it; I am concerned about the relationship between the position and the salary attached to the position, and the rela tionship between those two relationships from one fiscal year to another fiscal year. Mr.

Ducharme: I am advised that the level of salary was the same, if you take any consideration that you used money out of the operating to cap it. Then they went to Treasury Board and got the Treasury Board approval. Mr. Santos: The information out of my research and study is that during fiscal year 19 91 -1992, the administrative support position has a salary of $26,400. The professional/technical position has a salary of $38,700 paid. The managerial position has a salary of $53,900 during the fiscal year 19 91 ·19 92. Is this correct? So that the total is $1 1 9,000. Mr.

Ducharme: Okay, to get it correct again, he specifies a lower salary. To go back and make it very, very slow now, the amount to bring it up to the $38,000 of what was paid the second year was taken out of the operating costs on the lower year, and you added that. Then the next year, after Treasury Board approved the top salary, then you did not have to take any money out of the oper ating. Mr. Santos: What was then the base, even if we absorb the money from the operating, what was the basis of the salary, in your estimation, honourable minister, for that position, the one that was actually attached to it?

Not the money that was actually paid, because it was vacant during November to March, what was the official salary level of that position during fiscal year 19 91 -1992? Mr. Ducharme: I will have to get that for the member. I will have to get that broken down for him. But, basically, the same salary is maintained for that position combination approved by the government over those three years. Mr. Santos: I am now trying to study the pattern of salary in these three positions. The following year, and this is the present year, the administrative suppor t position has not changed, the same person?

Okay, that same salary that was $26,400 in 19 91-1992 is now $28,300. That is an increase of $1 ,800. Mr. Ducharme: Are you talking about '91 -92, or are you talking about '90-91 , or are you talking about '91 -92? I am not quite getting clear, are you saying the year '91 -92? Mr. Santos: Rscal year is operating two years; 19 90-1991 is one fiscal year. Mr. Ducharme: '90-91. Mr.Santos: Okay, 1991 -1992thatisanother fiscal year; 19 92 to 19 93 is another fiscal year. pnte�ection] This is the third fiscal year. I am saying that according to

Schedule 4, page 8, that salary now is $28,200, administrative. That is on the record . [interjection) Right. Ali i am trying to say, what the raise means. It is a raise of $1 ,800, which is 6.82 percent increase. Mr. Ducharme: The step plus the 3 percentthatwe authorized under the agreement. * (1 61 0) Mr. Santos: Correct. You jump from one range to another range as you have your maturity. Normally in the Civil Service position, you start with a lower range, the entrance level. Then as years roll by, you go from range to range in addition to increases, right?

41 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 92 Mr. Ducharme: But this is the same person who we are talking about. Mr. Santos: It does not matter whether it is the same person . The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Order, plea se. I would re min d honour able members to, when they are making their remarks, to address their remarks through the Chair, please. Mr. Santos: I am just going towards the facts themselves, the statistical data here. Last year that was $26,400. This year, fiscal year 19 92-1993, it is $28,200. Correct? Mr.

Ducharme: The Civil Service and Treasury Board authorize the salaries for what we pay those positions. Mr. Santos: Correct. Mr. Ducharme: That is all arranged through the Civil Service Comm ission. Mr. Santos: All I did was subtract $26,400 from $28,200. Take the difference, divide the difference by the base, which was last year's position, and that gives me the percentage increase. Mr. Ducharme: What is mathematical about that? The person got an increase. Mr. Santos: Nothing, it is just a statement of fact, 6.82 percent increase. That is the administrative support position.

Now, the managerial position-of course, that is Kathy's positiOI'Hast year, it was $53,900; this year, it is $58,000. If I subtract $53,900 from $58,000, I get $4,1 00. I am explaining to you how I arrive at these percentages. H I divide $4,1 00 by its base of last year's salary, the increase is 7.61 percent. Mr. Ducharme: Remember, Kathy has not just started with Seniors Directorate. Kathy was in government before. She is entitled to her increment and the 3 percent raise. She is entitled to both. Mr. Santos: You are not answering my question Mr.

Ducharme: Oh, you wanted to know- The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Order , please. Mr. Ducharme: Just let me explain. Just let me finish. She is entitled, like every other employee, when her increment change comes up, she gets her increment plus the 3 percent that was agreed to by MGEA. Mr. Santos: The honourable minister should not be very defensive. I am not questioning anything. I am ju st stating the com pu tation of these percentages, how it came to be. I thought I had made it quite clear. Now, this is where my trouble comes in.

When I look at the professional/technical position, from a base, whatever it is, which must be in the $40,000s or so, it jump ed, as to the data that I have, from $38,700 to $46,1 00. There was a change. They have no qualifications and maybe seniority in other departments of govern ment. But to me, that jump from $38,700 to $46,1 00 means $7,400 which, if I compute again in percentage form , is 19 .1 2 percent. This is just a computation. I am not questioning anything. These are the facts.

In other words, if you take all three positions together and lump them in one jump, what was $1 19 ,000 salary last fiscal year, this year becomes $1 32,300. These are on your data. That alone is an overall increase of 11. 18 percent. Mr. Ducharme: You have to remember, we have calculated in there what we are going to have to pay at top position for a person we just hired. She comes from another department. You do not reduce their salary if they have the experience. Remember, you are paying position. That is not an actual expenditure.

That is only the estimated expenditure, because, as you remember, we have just hired that person, we just hired her last week. So we have to put in there what the maximum amount is in that position. We have done that. Then next year, what will work out will be the actual position that we spend. That position you are talking about, there is no one there. There has not been anybody there since November. So when the Estimates are done up, you put in the maximum amount in that position, so that when you do hire and people compete for that job, there could be-l do not know, how many people did we have?

We had 80-some applicants for that job. You have to have your level at the top so that when you fill it, then next year it will show up as the actual amount that you fill. But you have to anticipate paying the top dollar on that position because it was vacant at the time of the Estimates. Mr. Santos: Of course, I do not know if I have the authority to ask for the documentation of that hiring.

June 2, 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 41 19 Mr. Ducharme: The documentation that you can have is-1 am not quite clear what the Civil Service Comm ission will release, but I will release any documentation that the Civil Service Commission will allow me to release to you. Mr. Santos: I would like to know, for example, her category, where she came from , what salary range she was, from the initial entrance level, whether she had reached the ceiling yet, and I would like to know the change from the old position. I am not talking about the present; the present to me is irrelevant.

It Is the position, to this present position. Mr. Ducharme: I can tell you that they usually go up one increment, so there would automatically be an increase to what she is doing. However, I will give you as much information on the categories the Civil Service Commission will allow, because in this particular case we went outto all the employees and advertised.

As a matter of fact, as I say to you, we had 86 applicants and the best qualified one was a position of a person coming over from Health, who was interviewed by the Civil Service Commission and they came down to four, and when the names were shown to me, they had picked No. 1, the Civil Service Commission picked No. 1 , and that is the one that I wholly recommen ded. Mr. Santos: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, and to have a comparative perspective, I would like to have also the relevant documentation for the prev ious occupant with respect to her background, how long she had been in the Civil Service and so on, what range and what position she had occupied. Otherwise it will be meaningless to me. Mr. Ducharme: Yes, we will give you the job description and we will give you as much as we can that Civil Service Commission will give us, because our staff left it completely up to the Civil Service Commission. Mr.

Santos: Ali i am trying to establish here is that there should be some kind of equity when people move from one department to another department, so that no one is in a disadvantageous position. I do not know where the previous occupant went when she left the position. She might still be with some government unit or department, I do not know. Mr. Ducharme: The Civil Service Comm ission recommends what we pay them. They recommend the categories that are hired, and that is all done when they do their interviews, and so if they say that I can release that for the person we hired recently, I will give that to you.

Mr. Santos: So what we have established here is that there is in the overall-! am now talking three fiscal years-$11 6,320 total salaries In the fiscal year where it started, 19 90-91 ; then the following fiscal year, 199 1 -92, that $1 1 6,320 jumped to $1 1 9,000. That is a jump in total-! am now talking of the global figur�f $13, 300. ,. (1

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-77
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 77.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9408c2380f8b02791bb0ed2b06bdd97c4b40446f

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