Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI First Session Tuesday VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 52 12 December 1989

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! On behalf of hon. Members I would like to welcome to the Speaker 1 s gallery today the Ambassador of Spain to Canada, His Excellency Antonio Fornier. ·The Ambassador is accompanied by the Commercial Counsellor with the Embassy of Spain in Canada, Mrs Maria Deloras Loureda. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I shouJ.d point out to hon.

M.::~rnbers l:hat this is the Ambassador's first official visit to NeiJJfoundland, l:he purpose of u.Jhich is to become familiar with Newfoundland and its econmomy, particularly with respect to the fishery and related matters. On b~::~half of han. Members IJJe exU>r1d a cordial welcomE• to bol:h the Ambassador and the Commercial Counsellor, and wish them a very happy, productive and successful visit to the Province. Oral Questions MR. DOYLE : Min. Speake!" . MR. SPEAKFR : The han . the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

SpE!akE!r, I have a ques lion fo1n L h e M i n i s 1: •?. r o F E rn p 1. o y 1111::' n t a n d Labour Relations. The unernploymr:•nl figur·es fo1n Newfoundland have been released, and ne(~dless Lo say they aJ"e very, Ll Decr:~mbr::•r 12, 1989 VoJ. XI...[ very alarming indeed. Newfoundland's unemployment ral:e remains the highest in a]J of' Canada, 17.1 per cent, and t:hat ts up 3 percentage points over the same period last Y•:>ar, tn November. The unemployment rate for Agriculture, Forc"slry and 1 .. 1·1•?

Fishery is up dramatically, up 1.2.7 points. fhe Manufacl:ur·i.ng sector, which includes fish plants, have an unernployrnE•nl r·al:.E! of 24.3 per CE!nt, up 5 po:int.s oveJ" the sarne period last year. Finally, Ml". SpeakE!r', Lhe unemployment ral :e for l::hr:o construction industry 1.uas 311 pel" cent in November, up 12 points over last year. I IAJOuld likE! to e1sk the Min ts l:rc•r arE! these figurE's notAl a]arrrd.n<=J enough t:o move Lhe Mintsl ·.r:'l" inl:o act.ton in the CJ"eal:i .on or · ern p 1 o y me 11 t p 1n o grams l: o o F F s '"! l:. 1:. h c:> devastating effect oF these numbers? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minisl:.er of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN: Our Government has been c 0 nti nua 11 y ai.UiH'E!' Ml". Sped kr: :! I''•. (I r the unemployment crisis in this P r o v i n c e . I t: h a s b e e n i.'ll'l o n ~~ cd n q problem for a number of docctdes now and IAIE' a1nr:• not r'E•dcl :'i.nq in i'rt•Y other IAJay t.hi::tl1 t.hr::o IAlciY I s t.a l.r:•cl thE! othE:!r' day, :i.n a Cdlrn, J"( :•asonr:·cl way. trying to Find ~;o lu l:.irll' l'~ l".o this paJ~t .icular problem. MR . SPEAKEI1 : Th.::' han . the ME'Jnber· f"o1" IIDJ"bouJ" Main. MR. DOYLE : Mr· .

SpE!akE'!r', IAIE'! havE> yf•l. l:,n se.;:• a n y rn r:~ a n i n g F u 1 e 111 p l o y 111 c• n L p In o <j r· .:r 1 n s crE'!atE!d by th·is CovPJ"nl'llf!I1L Lo addr·~?ss the ~;c,, problE:'tns. N<~IAJ, is No . ~i2 R L

the Minister aware and does she have any understanding of what these numbers mean? Is she aware that she is soon going to be presiding over the most devastaU .ng unemployment picture since the depression days? Let me ask the Minister, can she give us some indication of t.uhat the unemployment numbers will be t.uhen the effect of the Grand Falls mill layoffs kick in, when the effect of fish plant closures kick in, when the downturn in the fishery kicks in? What is the Department's forecast of eve~nts and the effects on the Newfoundland economy? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN: That is a very, very complex question the gentleman has just asked. It is not one certainly that I can address in a t.wo or three minute answer; I, perhaps, would have to write a thesis or whatever on it. I can answer his First question. I certainly am aware as Minister, and I have a deep understanding and concern about unemployment in this Province and possible upcoming unE~lTtployrnen t. MR. DOYL E: Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister has such an understanding of the unemployment problems in Net.ufoundland, I am interes l:ed in finding out what the Provincial Labour Minister told her federal counterpart last week when they met in Ottawa. I lAJant to ask her is tl1e story in The Evening Telegram of December 8 , on page 3, accurate, in which Barbara McDougall makes the statement and I quote 'That the Fisheries Response Program is working very L2 oc:~cernber 12, 1989 Vol XLI well and this vi ew is shared by the Newfoundland GouE~r·ntTtE~nt? '· Did the Minister in fact make that statement?

And how does she square that tAiith the body of thought that is out there among fishermen, among people who are really affected, which says that the Fisheries Response Prognun is not working well at a11? Ht>r ' O\Ain colleagues in Ottawa; Mr. robin and Mr. Simmons, say tha l: Lhe F i s her i e s R e s p o n s e P r o q r a 1n i .s no r~ working very well, but Lhe Minis u~ r is saying t t. is tAJO ~~ ld n g very well. Can she explain that? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . f"'S COW_8_f~ : First of erroneous, suggesting statement. all, he is being very Mr.

Speaker, in even that I made that And r will not make SOME HON. MEMBERS : It is in the paper. paper. MS COWAN: RE~ad the It does not say I said it, pat"cion me! .~9.1'1-~.--l:!.QN . ,_.J1.t~ .. lli1I .. ~.§ : The paper said it . MS COWAN : E.xcuse mP! MR. SPEAKER : Order, pl~~ase!

MS COWAN: M r . ~) p E~ a k e r , I ul o u 1 cl no L J-i k e L o comment on any netAJSpapE!r ar·t.iclc:! that is brou~~ht:. into th(;• House ctncl waved in Front': of tnt~. rl ·l,?~;(~ f", :~w colleagues on l:he olher side or the l~ou s e are tAJI':' L 1 atAJi:'tt"e oF hot.u news is sometimes LranslatPd . 1 tAJoul.d further speak dbcH.tt. i l: No . S2 f\2

directly to the hon. Mrs. McDougall when the occasion presents itself. And thank you very much for not disappointing me, I 1.uas waiting for you to come in with that question. MR. RIDEOUT : Is it true, or is it not true? MR . SPEAKER : ThE! han. the Leader of thE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the Premier in his statement to the House yesterday referring to the closure of the Southside fish plant here in St.

John's made the following statement on page 4-, and he said: 'The Province is disappointed with this announcement'- and naturally so ·- 'but takes some comfort in the company's plans to maintain the plant so that it can be reactivated once stocks have recovered. ' Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier will not the Premier confirm for the House that in fact National Sea Products has no plans to reactivate the Southside plant, that its plans arE!, in fact, to mothball l:he plant and, if a proper offer comPs along, to seJ.l l:he facility. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: No, Min.

SpeakE!r, that is not t-he advice I have. I cannot say that is not the plan of National Sea Products, I can only say to Lhe Leader· oF Lhe Opposition and the House, Min. Speaker, l:.hat Lhe information . that is in the statement was l:.he information L3 DecembE•r 12, l9B9 Vol xu : which came to me yes l:er·day morning and I included it in the statement. How soundly basr;!cl t.hat is or whether they have other plans of mothballing it and selling it, if they can f':incl somebody to buy it, I cannot say with certainty, but I will undertake to ftnd out and adv'isE• the House. MR. SPEAKER : rhe hon.

Lhe Leadel" of l:.he Opposition . MR . RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I understand the Premier undertakes to find out and advol.st:• the House. · I would havE· thought that perhaps Lhe Prernier· rnicJhL have asked the officials of National Sea what their plans were in that regard. Mr. Speaker, wou1d thE! P1nemi .E!I" acknowledge, as well, that National Sea Products have nlack• it -_ clc:~ar that if it. is successfu1 Ln selling its SouthsidE'! plant, hei"C i n S t . J o h n ' s , i t do '"' s no l:. i n l:.

E! n d to give up any pol"Lion of il.s enterprise allocation to any nPw potential owner/operator oF Lhal facility lAJh,~n l:he sl:ocks ,~,:!COVel~, so that, thelnE!forE!, t.her·e is no long -tE·r·m possibi.liLy ol·~ ll1al: facility accessing oFfshore fish? Mf~. SPEAKEr~ : fhe hon. the Prem :i.e r. PREMIER WELLS: I d o n o t t h "i. n I< N a t. i o n a ·1 ~3 e a Producl:s is thE• only E•nL"il":.y Lhal·: has input inl:o l:hE· decision dS l~o Lll he the r· or· no l: t. hE! y LIJi. 1. 1 g ·j v e up a n y o F l:. h '" i r· P n l:. L' r· p l"i s e allocation.

They cannot just choosP l:o St::!ll ol ·f dny plant:. or plan ·ts that t-hey lAJ-:ish <.'tncl c:•xpc;ocL Lo i<eep Lhe enLerpriso No. 52 r-n

allocation. As I told Mr. Demone on a couple of occasions, those fish are not fish on the balance sheet of National Sea Products. They are fish that are in the ocean to be available to be caught and processed by l:he fisher·rnen and plant workers of this Province who, and whose ancestors, have been catching and processing those fish for centuries, so they cannot be considered to be assets on the balance sheet of National Sea Products. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Nobody v.li 11 statement by result of the are interested disagree with that the Premier.

The statement is what we in. Now, Min.

Speaker, in view of the fact that National Sea Products, even with the closures that were announced yesterday, will still have excess processing capacity within its system, and in view of the fact that FPI, when they announce their closures over the next fE!W days or few weeks, tAJhenever it might be, tAJi11 still have excess processing capacj.ty in its systE!m, and in vietAJ of the fact that when the stocks recover, rather than take out of mothballing or closedown modes that excess capacity, because they will still have excess capacity in t.he:ir systems, t.~.li.ll the Prernit:~r not tell the House today that when closedowns are announced by National Sea as they were yesterday, or by FPI as they will be tomorrow or some other day, that in effect as far as those two cornpaniE!S closedotAJns closurE!S? ar'E! concerned those Is companies are mean permanent that not 1.1.1hat those talking about?

L4 - December 12, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: They rnay -be-:- Mr. Speaker. I do not know with certainty. I understand from the discussions we have had with National Sea Products that with the closures they are talking about in Nova Scotia and l:he closur·e of l:he plant in St. John's, that they are talking in ter·rns of ope•r·at. ·i.nq closer to 90 to 100 per cent capacity t.~.d.th th~"'!ir exist.i.ng plants.

Now, aga:in, I r:an undertake to find out what they would expect they will be operating at wi tb l:h~':! closures they are projecting, but l understood from National ~3ea that they were thinking in terms of operating at a fairly high proportion of capac:ity, so that that is why I would expuc t that they wouJ.d reopen a pJ.ant Ol" LtAJO plants that tbey had closed when the stocks recover.

With respect to Fishery Products International, the oinFormat .ion tJJI:! have frorn thE!m, I tl1ink they !AJ( C•r·E· thinking in terms of, cl1:!ponding on what fish was availab1o to them, depending on what the allocation provides for thern, closing p1ants that would enabl.e them to pt"oduc•c! at a level of production that thoy were producing at a coup le of years ago, which may bE• 60 - 6l> per cent of Cdpacity, so in l:h~:.ir case it may bE:· mor E! J.i b:Oly . NotAl, that is l:he b1:~st. infor•tnation I have at l:h:is mornE!nt.

Bul: nobody knotAJs t.~.ril:h certainty, b•:!ca us' ? nobody knows what the rea1 allocation is going to be yet. But the best information I have available is that·~ "it sc•ums tnore likE!ly that Nationa 1 Sc::·a rnoi~~hL b~:· able to reopen , becau se Fi shery Products, I think, were Lhoinking in term s of nol: rE!ducinq l:o t:hc• No . 52 R4

point where they were 90 to 100 per cent capacity. But, again, I will check those figures on proposed capacities and I will try and advise the House tomorrow, Mr. Speaker. MS DUFF : Mr. Speaker . ·M R . S P E A K E R : The han. the Member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would l i k e to add res s this question to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Minister, in vietAJ of the fact that· the Federal Government in 1985 issued a processing licence to National Sea for the factory freezer trawler, the Cape North, over the strong objections of the Government of the day, the Peckford Government, and, in fact, over the strong objections of the Liberal Opposition, and in view of the fact that at that time a comrnitmE!nt was made:~ by NatSea to the fish plant workers that not one shore job would be lost as a result of that decision, and it is now very clear that 492 shore jobs have been lost because of depleted fish stocks, is the Government preparE!d to take a very l:ough stand with the Government of Canada and NatSea, and insist that the processing license for the Cape North be revoked, and that the fish allocated to the Cape North be processed at the National Sea plant in St.

John's? MR. SPEAKER : rhe han. the Minister of Fish1?.ries . MR . W. CARTER : Mr . Speaker , I can giVE! the Mernb1:!r an assurance that hon. such L5 Deu!rnber 12, 1989 Vol XLI action has been taken. In Fact, [ intend to tab1e tonJolnlnot;.J in l':.his House a copy of rny lett.1:!r to l:h1:• Minister of Fisheries, in which we are demanding the very thing that the han. Member lnaiSE!d. WE• have done it verbally, but: tornorrotAJ, Mr. Speaker, we wi.11 be tab1ing a copy of that letter. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Sl:. John's East.

MS DUFF: I am glad to hea1n t.hat l.he Government has at last li'lkt:•n l:hat: action. My supplementa1ny, Ml". Speaker, is that: I think the Minister is aware that the National Sea plant in St. ·John's plays a very vital roJe in the inshol~e fishery of Lht:• (lua1on Peninsula. There are a lot of small Fisher·rnen lAJho use l:hal: plant: also, particularly duJ~ing the cod glut season, when oHlt:!r planl:.s in the area are busy with capelin and other species.

NotAl, if' Nal:.~3t~a is all.oLI.Jed to close, what plans ha~; Government rnacle to process t·:ho inshore fish which is current]y processed at NatSea particularly during season. MR. SPEAKER : in ~3t. John's, t:he cod gJ ut. The han. the Minister oF Fisheries . MR. W . CARTER: Mr. Speaker, this 111orning, i'll: 8:00 a.rn., I met lAJ:il:.h un :-i.on or "ricja "Js in illY oFfice, Mr. EaJ"l McCur·cly, Mr. Anstey and Linda Hyde, Lhe lad y fro rn l: he N a l~ S e c:l p l a n l: , <Hl d tAli? discUSSE!d that. VE'lny lfii'tLLE'l". My oFFicials are now contac~lng NatSea to discuss thaL uery mattt>r.

We knotAJ l:hat t·.h,:• inshure sector-- YE!St:E·rday, by the IAJC·cy, lAJe rnet lAiith some of l.he inshu1~,,. . fishermen. We know there is a V!O:'Iny subst:ant.ial aJnounl of' 1·.-i.~;h No. 52 I~

I) landed by l:he inshore fishermen in St . John 1s, and we l<now th .at unless some action is taken now, come next spring there might very well be a glut problem. So we are now discussing that with the owners of NatSea to see lAJhat kind of an arrangement can be worked out to ensure that that kind of a situation will not arise. MR_. __ SPEAK .t~: The han. the Member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF: A final supplementary. If the NatSea plant in St.

John 1 s is allowed to close, it is very widely believed that it will never re-open for a numbe ,r of reasons, tAihich I tAii.ll not get into right now, lAJhich will end 500 years of continuous activity in the port of St . John 1s as a historic fishing port, and there is also a fear that fish that is currently processed here will ultimately end up in Nova Scotia .

I would like to know from th~;;~ Minister if his Government has, in fact, accepted that closure of Natsea plant as an inevitable consequence of the temporary quota reductions, or is the Government prepared to use every means at its disposal, including pressure on the Federal Government and NatSea, to keep that plant open on a part-time basis ; or , an o the r tJJa y of phrasing it, is the Government prE!pared to stand up and fight tough for the workers of the NatSea plant in St. John 1s? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my answer is yes, yes, yes.

MS DUFF: L6 DE!CE!rrtbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . I would have been happy if the Minister had said, 1No, yr..~s. y<::!S, because my first question is - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order , please! Sorry! I just have to rE!Cogrdze the Member. The hon. l:he Mernl :)1:>r for St. John 1s East. MS DUFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My first question was, has the Government accepted the closure of the NatSea plant as inevitable? Is that a no, or a yes? MR. W. CARTER : I st1all amE!ncl my ansuJer·, Mt'·. Speaker: No, yes, yes, yes . MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought the w~:.at:l'wr· oul:soiclc' 1~1as bad! Mtn. Speaker, rny qUE!Stion :i.s to Uw M i n i s t e r o f F i s h e r i (' s . r. IAI o u 1 d like to ask the Min·:i.stPr' if hP hc:·ls had meetings tAJith FishE!ry Proclucl:.s International over the lasL forty .. -eight hour·s or so, .:tnd if so, what 1.1.1ere the rneel:inqs about .. ? Is Fishery Products Inl:ernat1onal any closer to indicating to Lhe Province the possible plant closures? MR. SPEAKER : No. 52 R6

The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W . CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I met with the Chief Executive Officer, the Chairman of the Board, no later than an l1our ago, in my office, very briefly, and he could not tell me any more today than he could a week ago in terms of what plants they wiLl be closing down. They are grappling with the problem, and I guess in due course they t.~.lill make a decision and will announce it accordingly. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It seems that these kinds of meetings have been going on for weeks now and nobody seems to know.

I do not know if they get together and have tea and biscuits or whatever, but we have a very serious situation in the Province and I would have thought the Minister would be trying to determine frorn Fishery Products International exactly what their plans are. Everyone in the Province and in the country knows that all indications are the maximum total allotA.table catch v.lill be 190,000 metric tons. My supplementary to the Minister: Is the Provincial Newfoundland and Government of Labrador objecting to any plant that may be suggested by Products International? MR.

SPEAKER : closures Fishery ThE! han. the MinistPr of Fisheries . MR. W . CARTER: Mr . Speaker, I think the han. Member answered his otA.tn question. Given the Fact that the total L'l December 12, 1989 Vol XU allowable catch will be considerably decreased From last year and from the year before, then it must follow that there will have to be cutbacks. We certainly do not look for·ward to seeing any plants close, but I guess there are times when you have to be realistic.

And until we find out from FPI exactly what:. plants they intend to close ·- IJJt?. know roughly what plants thE!IJ are looking at, and I 'l:hink rnosl": Newfoundlanders do, but CE!l~ta:in:Jy until a firm decision is made, then we wi.ll haue to IAJai.t and SE!C! what happens. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, rny question t.o l:hE! Minister is, you haue den:i ed aJ J along that you knew, and not.l.l you are telling us that you guess everyone should know what plants Fishery Products InternattonaJ aJ"t::! looking at.

Well, only a coupl1?. of days ago you dE!n:i .E!d that, and you are telling us that. in your meeting today that w~s not discussed, the total allowable catch had to be determined. Will the Minister inform the House if the Prouinci .al GouernJJJent is objecting? We haue seen statements from Mr. Young l:.hat suggested, depending on thE· tot .al allowable catch, there will be beti ... Jeen tv.Jo and f'ouJ~ fi .sh plant.s closed. That is what he said.

Is the Prouincia1 Govern1IIE!nl:. objecting to the closurE• oF i'lny fish plants suggested by Fishery Products International, or are you going to accept Jock, sl .ock and baJ~rel tA.that FishE!ry Procluc l:s International is recommending? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minisl":er of Fisheries . No. 52 lO

MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I think the House wiJ.l recall that about a week ago the han . Member stood in his place and said he knew then what plants were going to be closed. I am surprised he would even ask me the question. If he knows, then why does he ask the question? I can tell him now that I do not know. I do know that a number of options are being looked at, as you wo u 1 d ex p e c t . There are go i n g to have to be some changes, adjustments and readjustments, but certainly at this point in time we are not aware of what plants F PI wiJ.l be closing. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Grand Bank. MR.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I regret, Mr . Speaker, that I was correct on the reported closure of the St. John • s fish plant. I was hoping I was going to be wrong. I am hoping I will be wrong about any closure of any Fishery Products International plant in this Province. And if this Government wants to prevent that, they can object and consequently do so. My ftnal supplementary to l:he Minister: When can we E!Xpect to h''!ar what fish plants Fishery Products International will be closing in this Province? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER : Mr.

Speaker, I can only say that I suppose once all the options ar·e investigated and thoroughly assessed by FPI, once there is a better understanding as to what L8 DE!CernbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI quotas wilJ. be availablE! to lhE!In, then, I expect, FPI 1Aii11 do t.uhat has to be done. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is faitn to say that in our negotiations with FPI we have found thE!rTI to bE! operating in good faith, dooing the best they can in a very bad situation.

I can only tell the Member and the House that I havE· enough confidence in that Company, and its Directors and officials, to know that they will do what they have to do and no rnorE!, in terms of plant closures. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader oF LhE• Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the PrE!mier, IAJhE!n it is convenient for him to do so, and rightly so, has made an :issue from time to time of Lh1:! out-migration of NeiAJfoundJ.andE·rs and Labradorians from this Province . Earlier today, Mr . Speaker, Dr.

Doug House, l:he ChaiJ"rnan oF LhJ:• Economic Recovery Comud .ssion, caused people all over this Province to wal<e up to IAJhat Lhc•y thought IAJa s a bad dream, c?~nd l: hal was Dr. House on thE• CBC Monli.nq ShotAJ saying the following, and 1 quote, 'We may have to do IAJhat Newfoundlanders have been doing for centuries, move outside t.h:i.s Province . Thal: might be thE! bL'•st option. 1 NotAl, Mr. SpE!aket", IAriJ.J. the Premier tell l:he House IAJheLI·l, :'r or not this po1icy as iH'l.icuJaLed by Dr. House this mor·ninc3 is shared by the GovernmenL? No. 52 R8

AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS: Yes, he did? MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, he did, Mr. Speaker·. Go down to CBC and listen to the tapes. We have the tapes, Mr. Speaker, and we will run downstairs and get thern if the Government so wishes. I am not fooling. It was said, and we can produce the tapes if you wish to listen to them. Now, the question I wish to ask the Premier is this, Mr. Speaker: Will the Premier tell the House whether or not this policy as articulated by Dr. House is shared by the Government? If it is not, when is the Premier going to yank Dr.

House from the airwaves and put on a spokesperson who will, in fact, articulate Government policy? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : What we really need, Mr. Speaker, is an Opposition that will tell the lAJhole truth and not just part of the truth and so cause deception. That is what WE! really ne!?.d. Not.u, Mr. Speaker, I just finished a rneE!ting tAli th Dr. HouSE! and the Economic Recovery Commission. As a matter of Fact, I discussed with Dr. House the interview.

As a matter of fact, I have a copy of l:he tape and I listened to it and I can tell the House that the Opposition Leader has not disclosed to the House the whole truth, he has taken a few phrases out of it and has distorted totally what Dr. House said. Dr. House was not announcing L9 D(:'CE!rnbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI policy of the Government, Dr. House was anstAJering spE!cifically a question put by a reporter, and he told the rE•porter of al l the opportunities available for retraining and what would be available, and he went thr·ough all of that . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS : Mr.

Speaker, I will be happy to report to the House if l:he hon. Members want it, but it is obvious they only want to hear a distorted version. They do riot want to hear the truth. NolAJ I arn quoil:e happy to report the truth . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) the whole tru th and nothing but the truth. PREMIER WELLS: That is right. And it is no mistake that the oath you take in court SWE!ars you not simply to tE:!l1 the truth, but the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Because, Ml". Speai<E!r', :i.f" y 0 U d 0 110 t , y 0 U Can dE' C !·d V E!

ITIO I~ t?. effectively by telling a simple portion oF l:he tr·ut:h than you cdn by telling a lie. What Dr·. House did tJJas anst.uer thE! nr:•tAJst.uornan' s question about what a] Ler natives were open, and l:he l:rainintJ l:hat would take p1ace. He SFH:<11ed all of this out. And l:hun Lhu nl:'lAJS interviewer carne back and asked another question: 'Could this ITIE!an lE•aving the ProvincE·, too?' And he said, 'Yes. And this is not unusual . People have leFt the P r o v i n c e b e F o t" l~ a n d t h c:• n , tJJ 1·1 rc' n circumstances are better, Lhey t.uill come back IAJhen l:her r::~ are No . 52 [~9

better opportunities. • Now that is what Dr. House said. To say anything else would be to do what the Opposition have been doing for seventeen years, burying their heads in the sand. afraid to face the reality. AN HON. MEMBER : Right on! That is what you did in '71. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SIMMS : Talk about deception! MR. SPEAKER: The han :·- the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Premier must be awfully concerned. He had Dr. House in to run through the tape, obviously. Now. Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the Premier, the master of deception when it suits his needs to be the master of deception, is it - AN HON. MEMBER: That is what you are . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker, can you silence the han . Member, or get him, ~s a backbencher, l:o get up and ask a question if he so wishes? MR . SIMMS : For a change, yes . MR. RIDEOUT : Is it the fundamental policy of this Government and the Economic Cornmi s sion that. in fact. thE! best option For Newfoundlanders is to pack up thE!ir bags and leave this Province. as l:hey have done for LlO December 12, 1989 Vol XLI centuries?

Is that what the Premier is trying to te11 thE• people of this Province through his spokesperson. Dr. HouSE!? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker . And it is a gross misrepresentation of anything Dr. House said to suqge s t that that is what he said. He did not. fhe hon. l:he Leader of l:h•:! Opposition is inaccurate in his representations to the House. Mr.

Speaker, here is the rE:'aJi ty: The Statistics Canada E•st .imate, and I do not know if it is accurate or not because it is only an estimate, so I caution Members, they estimate that in 1989 the population of Newfoundland is going up to 570,000, and increasing for the first t:i.rne in six years. Finally 1.ue a1~e rnaybe going to get back to where we were in 1983, getting back clo se to where we were in 1983, in LE•r'I'Tls or population. It is happening in 1989. But we do not know wi th certainty that it is. Becausr:­ this is on 1 y an E! s t i.ma t e , I can no ·1:: put it forward as l:o ta 1ly reliable.

It may be• that i L ha ~; no t y e t r e a 11 y s tar L e d l: o increase, because tAle havE• no t.. hi:·\cl time For our policie s to reAlly take hold and improve. But tAJhat I can say. Mr '. SpE•akE>l ~ . and advise Lhe House, l:ht!l~e a1~r':!, as of November this year, 4,000 more people Lui l:h Full-yr'ar jobs in this Province than there IAJer' E! in November last year. Now while the hon. Member s wer e in office th r:!y foo1E!d t:·.h erns elve s and al':ternpted t:o Fool l:.he l"esl : ol : l:.h e ProvinCE!, bu t therE ! IAJe rE! tho sr:' or · u ~; IAJho IAJer c• nol : mi slr•d by Lh is , by No. 52 RlO

creating these make -t.uork jobs and pretending that they were really doing something of lasting value. Instead, all they were doing was putting band-aids on the cut and the injury without really dealing t.uith the fundamental problem. We have taken a different approach. Mr. Speaker, we were specifically authorized to do it by the e1ectorat:e of this Province voting for a real chang e, and that is the real change we intend to 'implement. MR . SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR . RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier is taking a different approach all right, and that is to close the whole Province down, as the unemployment statistics show for this time over twelve months last year. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier this: Will the Premier confirm to the House that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians this morning, having listened to Dr . House, Chairman of t:he Economic Recovery Commission, would be justified in looking at this Commission as a burn-your-boats commission, a resettlement commission, a mobility commission, a get -out-of Newfoundland and Labrador cornmissJ.on?

Is that what this Commission has bc::>en set up to do for thi s Province? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Prc?.mier . MR . WARREN : TeLl the truth . PREMIER WELLS : No, Mr. Speaker. I am that thE! peop le of this have more intellig ence look only at onE! phr·ase in answer l:o a specific Lll DE•cembE!r 12, 1989 confidont Province than to that tAla s quest:ion, Vol XLI that they l!.Ji.ll look at and lis l:l:·n to the whole of it . If they do, they tAd.ll see that l:hey are encouraged by Dr. House to E!xp ec t be tter t hi n g s wi t hi n t hi s P r o v i n c c?. and to look first and forern os L within this Province.

But, Mr . Speak er, Dr. Ho use?., bein r3 a man of honesty and in tegrity, when the newspaper reporter sa id to him, 'Dr. Hous e, in addition Lo what you said, does this al so men. n that some people will leave the Province and look For work els ewhere?' Dr. Hou se, qu ito honestly said, 'Well, yc'.:!s, [ can expect that that would happen, too . That has bE!en happ eninq for years in the pa st. But as sc •on a ~> there is better opportunity, as soon as we haVE! ti.1nc :• to Cl"eat.e bett er opportuni ty hc::'re, l:hey ca n be G!XpectE!d to comE! back, as th r::•y have done in the past, as well. MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Member For Burin Placentia West, one minute . MR. TOBIN : Mr.· SpE!aker, now that Dr'. !·louse has said this morning, and [ q u o t e , ' We m a y h a v e L o d o tAl h <'\ l .. other Net.ufoundlandc:!rS have bec:on doing for cent u r :i.E! s , movE! o u L. s :i cl c::· the Province, !:hat rnir3ht be Lhe bE!S l op t::ion', let me ask l.hr:· Minister of Municipal ~nd Provincial Affc:drs, not;.J tha L. llt" .

House has articulaLed a resettlement program ouLside Lhe P r o v i n c e , i F he lAI i l.1 l 'i v C:! u p l. o his commitment and announce tn this House, as he has said he would, the Capital Wo1~ks Pr·o~ll"i'\IIIS, and if l·:hc:.>re t;.Jill be a dc:•ni,::~l ol: water and sewer services to communities t.uhoi.ch Dr. House hds suggestE!d tAJi.ll have t.o ITiovc:· outs:ide the Province? MR. SPEAKER : No. S2 1\ I I

The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, the Capital Works Program is in the process of being finalized right now. As the han. member knows, it is priorized by the regional offices. Health and Environment are the two most important factors and will continue to be the two most important factors, Mr. Speaker.

There is no question that economic conditions in a given area are important, but the health situation in a community with water and sewer, and the environmental impact upon a community with the conditions that exist, are the mast important criteria and tJ.Ii.ll continue to be, and are identified as such in the criteria as we rank the various communities. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired . Order, please! PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, might I ask leave of the House to read precisely .IAJhat Dr. House said? If the House is interested in the truth, I IAJould like leave of the House to read it.

Could tAle have leave of the House to table it. No? Okay. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A couple of points came through in Question Period that the:~ Chair would like to comment upon at this point for the sake of parliamentary language in the future. TherE! tJ.Jere two incidents that the Chair would like to refer to. The first one was the rE!rnark made;! by the hon. the Lc;!ader of Lhe Opposition to the effect that the L1.2 DPCc;!mber 12, 1989 Vo 1 XLI Premier was a master of deception. In the House we are not to impute motives to han.

Members, and it is the opinion of the Chair that to suggest that somebody is a master of dE!ception is certainly imputing motives and ought not to stay on the record. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition did not mean to do that and it was just a ITI<:t'l:tE!r of expression. If the Leadc~r of t·.hc:! Opposition would wi thdraw that remark, then t.hat !AJould c1c,.ar up the matter. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy l':o withdra!AJ anything that i.s not . parliamentary if th€~ Pr·emic:!l~, and we have not checked any Hansard, but if the Premier !Ali.11 agree l':o withdraw the same r~':'fE!I~enCE! to rnc::• about accusing me of being deceptive and deceiving the Housr::! and deceiving the people of Newfoundland and Labrador by allegedly only quoting part of certain documents. I had no intention of deliberately trying to mislead the House or whal':ever. AN HON. MEMBER: The Premier should be as kod l:.u do the samE!. MR. SPEAKER : rhe Chair !Ali.ll certainly rc:!ft'r l~o the rE!marks by thE!

Pr·r:'ITlier, but 1 did not hear the Pr,:?.mier· say it in t h E! s arne 1 i g h t , b u t t h e C h a :i r· lA I j 1 l certainly look at i.t dnd 1nake no exceptions. I think to I"PFer· to anybody as being decoiving or to use the noun deception is certainly unpar1iamentary . n11:?. other s l:atern~:!nt that the Cha:i.r hds been hearing fr·om tim~=:! to t.i1111:> from ·an 1·1on. M~:!rnber is to suc,lqE•st, !Alhen an han. Member· is. speaking, that he should 1 tell the tru l:h. 1 For someone to make that statement:, 'tell thP truth,' :is No. 52 I~ 12

obviously an inference that an hon. Member is telling a lie. And as hon. Ml':Hnbers know, that is not supposed to ~1app1:!n in this House on ei the'r side. Hon. Ml':'mbers are supposed to tell the truth. MR. TOBIN : On a point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: On a point of order . MR. TOBIN: I listened, Sir , very carefully to what you had to say . On Friday past, when I t.~.Jas spe,aking in debate, an hon. gentleman s hou l:.ed across the House 'lies, lies, lies.' I brought it to the attention of the Speaker but nothing t..uas done about it.

It is also recorded in Hansard on Friday, and probably Your Honour would like to deal with that as well. MR. SPEAKER: I will do so . Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR . GILBERT: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Yesterday the Mernb(:'r for· KilbridE! as ked 1r1e a couple of questions. I told him I wwld gE•t an answer and report back.

The ·questions t..UE!re: I want to ask the Minister lAJhich part of the Province and which cornrnunitiE!S, or lAJhich isolated a r ~~ a s o f t h e i. s l a n d p a r L of t h e L.13 December· 12, 19B9 Vol XLI Province, would qualify to have l:he D•:1partrnenL of Transportal:.ion, equipment and staff work on private property. Further to the same question, and I want. t.o c,1sk the hon . Minisl:t:.~r l::o b•~ mol"•:> d£~finite to them, t..ui.11 hE! tell mE:! if St. David's and St . Fintan's area would qual. i fy u ncJ e 1n Provincial policy or equipment used on private property.

Answer: The Member was recently provided with the Department's policy on the use of equipment within the Province on private property. He is now asking t.uhi.ch part of the ProvincE~ spE!Cificalh qualifies under this policy. [L is impossible to identify these areas at any given point~. in l:.i111e, because circumstances are constantly changing. An isolat ed area which does not have acu,ss t.o any privately owned piece of equipment t.oday rntghl have access to such equipment next week . The s e r e q u e s t s are d r::• a l l~ w·i l:. h a '' they come in to the Deparl::ment, and are assessed as per our policy .

The second question he asked, [ want t6 tell the hon. Minister . that I guess, Lht' most. 'i.1npor l~dn l~ part of the pol ic y is Lhat equipment cannot be used at .:1ll unless there is no othe r equi .plll(•nL availabl•::. in the i1nnwdial :.c· arei'\, and I k n ot.&.J for· a r· a c t t h a l~ ~; l.. David's and l~he ~3t. 1---.inl~.an's c\lni'A do not have this type oF equipment available, so probably, it: tAJOtlld q u a 1 if y . B u t , M I" . S p e a k e r· , :r tAii:-Hl l .. t h e h o n .

M i n i s t e r L o c o n F i I" rn l: o this House that the cleparlntenl.a] s·taff and l::'quiptnent lAJic'l"e snen November 9th, doing work on the private conunercial propPrl:y, Ot•Jnt~d by the Member For SL. George's. AnstA.Jt:.>r: Government E:~quipllll:'rll':. lAii:tS not used on thE! pr·ival..e pi"OPE'I"Ly ot..uned by the Member for ~:) l~. Georgr~' s on Novembr:H' 9 Lh Ol" dny ol.:he1n dat.e. As a I"Ot.tl "'ine No . ~) 2 1\ J 3

maintenance act.ivi ty, departmental staff are constantly reshaping shoulders along the all-paved roads. On November 9th, 1989, the Department placed a tandem load of shouldering material along route ll-04, which passes in front of property owned by the Member for St. George 1 s, and if this is the incident to which the han. Member for Kilbride refers, I cannot see how it could be inferred as work on_ private property. The material was spread, using a departmental grader, which is considered to be normal maintenance operation.

In fact, the Robinson 1 s unit placed and spread approximately thirty-one hundred cubic metres of shouldering material on this and other roads in their maintenance area. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I undertook to find out information about the layoffs at Abitibi-Price, and if I have the correct quote here, the han. the Me~ber for Grand Falls indicated that it t.uas in fact 2'71 jobs and not 250 jobs. I undertook to determine whether or not the figure they gave us originally when they advised us of 250 was accurate.

We are now told that there are 2'~5 union jobs and twenty-six salaried jobs, which totals 271 jobs altogether. Not all of those are in Grand Falls, eight_ or ten, I believe, are in the Botwood area. The othe•r thing the han. gE!n ·tlernan said is that in reality it was going to be 420 jobs, those 271 plus another 1'~9 spares, lAJho t.uould now be absolutely out of lAJork and L14 December 12, 1989 Vol XLI would be 1 o s t too . r h a t. part of the representation is totally inaccurate, Mr. Speaker. fhe only accurate part of it is that thr:'lnE! are, in fact, 149 spares.

It is possible, although not at this stage certain, thal: the 149 spar1:-s may in fact be reduced sort of proportionately, depending upon how the employees rE!Spond to l:he layoff or early retirement options and so on. This rnay affect t-.:hr:• numbers. It could be t-.hat th1::-y may be reduced by fiFteen or · twenty, but there t.uould s U1l bE• a very large nurnber, or perhaps a]] of those numbers as spar1:!S. rhat is the information, I haVE! bE!en advised by company officials this morning. Now, I do not have p E! r s on a 1 kn01.uledge.

I cannot guaranl:.(!e l':he han . member that is right, but I undertook to find out the information, Mr. Speake in, and that is the information I obtained. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . This is an answer to a question on the Order Pape _r, QtH:'sti .on 4-0, ft"OITl l:he member for Kilbride. lie asked, what were the number of tendered contracts which were extended beyond thr::· iHCE:>ptecl tender price? fhE•re lAIE!tne s-ix. What was the exl':ra cost Lo Government For extending these contracts? It was $367,500.

A 1 s o , pro v i cJ o a 1 i s t o r l: he contracts which lAJer'e ext:.encled, <.Hid the location and description of l:he WOlnk PI"OVidE!d. They lAJE'r 'e Merits Cove dnd Back Ha.r·bout~ l~oad, extension to Contract 23B9; pavinc,1 L. o o p R o ad a t H i 11 v i e lAJ , e x t E! n s i. o n 6689; paving 120 fnE•t .rE!S of r'0<:·1cl in No. 52 R lll-

Portugal Cove South, extension 1689; project 5689 extended by 700 metres off Route 70 to the end of Salmon Cove because tender costs were lower than estimated; project 3989 extended by 360 metres, to include a bad

section of the Bareneed road; project 10388 extended to include paving of the departmental roads in the communities of Southern Labrador. Orders of the Day MR. BAKER : Order 22, Mr . Speaker. Motion, second reading of a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Mining Grant No. 11 (Conveyance of Minerals) Act, 1966. 11 (Bill No. 46) MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS : Mr. Speaker, this is a minor Bill to delete two words. Back in 1888, on December 20, that is 101 yt~ars ago, a mining grant 1.1.1as issued in the Pelley 1 s Island area to all the minerals exct'?.pt gold to an area of land. The old Uo lume 1 was lost in which this was registered, so back on March 25, 1966 a new Act called, 11 The Mining Grant No. 11 (Conveyance of Minerals) Act, 11 tuas passed by this House conveying the same minerals.

We have a company that is working the ar ·e a and that company made a request to us to include gold as part of the minerals . Normally give all under l:he mineral giv e an area and all expJ.oration, understand at Mineral Acl: we rights wben we for mineral U.IE! cannot 1.uhy 101 years LIS DecernbE!In 12, 1989 Vo 1 X Ll ago they excepted gold in this particular circums l~.ance.

Geologically, everything we know about the area would shc11.u gold as probably a by -product of copper, lead or zinc mineraJ.ization, probable copper mineralization like at the Whales Back or Litt .1e Bay mines in the Springda] E· r:n·r:!a, SO We do nol: knDIAI IAJhy il~. IJJOU.lci have excepted go1d. No one can understand that, and we are suggesting thE! arnE!ndrnent nou.1 that. tuould de 1 e te these l:.IAIO IAIOI"cl s FI"Om this particular piece of legislation. That. is l:he int :.:•nt of Bill No. 4-6. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Meniht:!k. MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . It is good to see l:he!

M"in.is l:.t~r oF Mines and Energy making some minor changes to this particular Act . It would be rnore inl~eresting, or­ course, to able to sl:and and~~:)::'! him making some energeti .c chang e~; to some of our other Ac l~.s . r:t i.s indeed a housekeE!pi.ng piecE! or· legislation, bringing this particuJ.ar piece oF pr·opE!rl:.y :inl:.o the other mineral properties in the Pr·ovince and in line under the Minerals Act.

OF cour se, p,:.lh,y' s Island was one oF the original mining sitt::'S in t.h·is Prouince, dnd contributed greaLly to l..he lAJea] l.h of Lhe Province in those particular days, bcHk in l.hr:· 1800s. [t ha s a lol: of rrrininq districts, such as in rny CllAlll, i.n Menihek. We alu.Jays r·ecoqn"i.z~:! hotu much they can conl:.ribute economically, but Liley also contributed cultur ally and po1i-tically. [n l:he ca·:;e of l..he cultural actiuities and l..he contribution of Pelley's [sl and, [ understand that the ancesLors or our House Leader, LhE! hun. Mr. No. 52 I~ l':,

Simms, are from Pelley's Island, so they have made a contribution politically and culturally. We do not have any problem on this side of the House with bringing into line this particular piece of property and encompassing it under The Minerals Act. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: If the Minister speaks now, he closes the debate. DR. GIBBONS: I thank the han. the Member for Menihek for his comments on this.

The reason I am rising today to talk on this, actually, is that on Thursday and Friday I arn going to be visiting his District of Menihek, to have meetings with both companies in that area, because that is the major area of this Province in terms of mineral exploration and mineral development. I close the debate. On motion, 11 A Bill.

An Act To Amend The Mining Grant No . 11 (Conveyance of Minerals) Act, 1966. 11 read a SE!Cond time:~. ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, on tomorrow . (Bill No. 46). MR. BAKER : Order 25, Mr. Speaker . Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act -ro Amend The ElectricaJ. Power Control Act," (Bill No. 54). MR. SIMMS: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKE I~ : The:~ hon . the Oppositi9n House Leader . MR. SIMMS : Ll6 December 12, 1989 Vol XLI If I may, just a IJJord before the Minister stands.

I have to make the point, and il.. should be understood by the House, that we are doing this, I guess, by agreement through discussions the House Leader and I haVE! had. The Minister IAiill not be here on Thursday or Friday, which would have been tht?. probable time l:his Bi11 might have come up fol" second reading.

Members rnay recall. i L had been intended ·to movE• back t.o Committee of the Whole today to discuss the Fishery BiLL and ol:hE'In matters, but by agreelnE!nt - and r would like to make it known, because l:his pieCE! of legi.slat .io n, again, has not gone Lo the Legislative Review CornmiU :ee ·- lJJ t:' are agreeing in this particular instance, but agreeing only to this : I understand it . i.s going to the Committee on Thursday. MR . GOVER : Tomorrow. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS : Tomorrow . Mernber·s do no L. k nouJ what they are talk 'ing abotJt. Listen to the Member for Bonaui sl..a South.

This particular Bj-lJ, The Electrical POlkJE!r Cont1nol Acl:, has not gonE! t:o Colllrnitt:ec:'. Am I r i.~Jhl_ or wrong? AN HON. MEMBER : You are right . MR. SIMMS: sO,CiOe's_,_e v (:' r y body apo 1 og i.z e ') SOME HON . MEMBERS : We apologize . MR. SIMMS : --· No. 1)2 I~ 16

Okay . Anyway, having made that point, here is the agreement the House Leader and I have, and t.ue want to make sure this is understood. It is not intended to debate this Bill today, we are merely allowing the Minister to introduce it today and then my colleague, our critic, will simply adjourn the debate and the intention is to move b a c k to Comrni ttee of the Whole. I would like the House Leader just to sort of acknowledge For the benefit of my colleagues on this side that ·this is not something secret, because we were not advised of this yesterday. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Government House Leader. MR.

BAKER: Mr . Speaker, in response, I hardly know how to begin. The Opposition House Leader says this is being done by leave or something, or is he simply making the point that he and I have had a conversation, finally? He has been saying that we have not been talking For some time and that we have had a conversation. Maybe that is the point he is trying to make . AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR . FUREY: ThE:~re is no J.eave rE!quirE!d. are you talking about? We are Government. We set the agenda . Wha l~ the MR. SIMMS : We had an talking to (inaudible). MR. FUREY : agreement.

I the junior was not Minister Well., clam up and just Li .s tE!n to us. We set the agenda. L17 DE!CE'rrtbr:•r 12, ].989 Vol XLI MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, ph'ase! MR. BAKER: I did have a conversation with the Leader of the Opposition first. and then the Opposi t~.ion House Leader, concerning the fact that I believe I announced t.ue lJ.Jere going ahead with Bill No. 26 yeste!~clay. the Fisheries Bill. but that I intended to call Orders 2? and 25. and I gave the reasons. I do not want this int erpreted, Mr .

Speaker, as being any ldnd of an agreement that thin•::JS have l:o go to the Legislative Committees before they are introduced in second reading in the House. I do not want it interpreted as any kind of agreemE!nt in any lAJ< c'Y possible. rhe GOVE !rnln lc'nl: calls the Orders on all days excep t Private Member 1 s Days, and it-. is a courtesy we extend La Lhe Opposition to ll=!.ll Li'lE!Ifl ahead oF time what we plan to do, and, then, if there are any situations that change those pJ.ans. to advise them as quickly as possible oF the changes in plans. Mr.

Speaker, therE! lAJi ''s no a g r e e me n t • i. t tAl a s s oi rn p l y <'ln ad v i s i n g o f t h e 0 p p o s i L i. o n c:-1 s lJ) t.uhat tAJas going to happ1:•n t:odc~y in a spirit of co -operation. Motion, SE·cond rE!aclin<:J or · a biJJ, " A n A c t r o A rn 1:' n d r 1·1 !"! F 1 E~ c L r· i c a 1 Pow~r Cont:ro1 Act " ( fh11 No. ~)LJ). MR . SPEAKER : The han. the M:i.nister ' of' Moir H:•s and Energy. DR. GIBBO~S : Thank you, Mr. Speaker' . Mr. Speaker, on May 25, in the ~ Throne Speech, we served no tice thai~ t.ue as a Coverrl!nenl~. tAJOuld be No. 52 1\ l '/

reviewing legislation regarding the generation, distribution and supply of electricity in this Province. We are doing that, and in the next Few months we are going to be bringing in a Bill regarding The Electrical Power Control Act that is going to have substantive changes to this particular piece of legislation, and will then warrant proper discussion, proper review in the Legislative Committee and so on. At i:his time, we are not ready to bring in significant changes to this legislation.

What we are doing today with Bill 54 is the bare minimum required to implement what we talked about in our Budget a few months ago, of integrating the Power Distribution District of Newfoundland and Labrador into Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, and phasing out the power subsidies that are now being paid to the District.

So these are the bare minimum amendments required to do this thing only , to phase out the subsidy, provide recovery of losses this year related to l:he subsidy, and to delete, basically, references in The Electrical Power Control Act to the Power Distribution District, therefore, integrating it fully in the role of the District into Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The amendments are broken into two parts, sorne, part one, to 'take effect retroactively April 1, because we basically started phasing out the subsidy with this year 1 s Budget, and, part two, to take effect as of January 1, 1990.

IF we look at the Bill, the most significant thing here is in clause 3 which sho1.us the addition of a

section 4.1 regarding forecast costs; 4.1(

a) talks about the subsidy for the period April 1 to December 31, or the phasing out Ll8 DE!CE!rnbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI of the subsidy For that period, therefore, the accural of losses by Hydro during that period, when the subsidy paid would be part of the $20 million for the first year that we are still going to provide for, 1989-1990.

Section 4.1 (

b) regards the loss1~s that would accrue after December 31, 1989 as the subsidy gets continually phased out; and part (

c) regards any losses regarding the implementation of a guaranteed fee. So these changes that are talkc::>d about in this particular Bill, part one, really do this only, except for deleting the references to PDD, the major part of it to phase out the subsidy over a three year period.

Part 2, starting tJ.Iith

Section 1~ of this Bill, again the samE!; and

part 5 (b)(

i) introduces a new definition for 11 rural cu s tornE!rs. 11 Rural customers are these people who were previously sE·r·ved by l.he Power Distribution Districts, so the use of the phraSE! 1 rural customers, thc::>n, 1o~.Ji.ll be SE'I''n throughout this particu1ar par'l. or this Bill.

Section 6, shows amendments to

Section 3, of The Electriud f>olo~.Jer Control Act, this is l.he restatement, then, of the poli cy regarding electricil:y in l.he Province. The declaration of policy whereby the rates to be charged arE! going to br::! J~easonab1e and not unduly d:iscr'iln:inal ~or·y, that is no change from at present; (

b) has a minor change lo~.Jhich basically ties the ral .E! of electricity l:o Forecast: cost. For onE! or morE! years. Previous1y iL talked about costs for a three year pE•riod based on C:'l sL.udy oF future costs for t:hat per·iod, or No. 52 R 1 B

some other period; 3(c)(

i) and 3(c)(ii) have not changed at all. And there is a deletion of a

section in the old Act that was referring to the PDD. So a new power poJ.icy is now as stated in

Section 6 of this Bill. On the next page, 7,

Section 9 refers to some amendments to

Section 6 of The Electrical Power Control Act and repeals the former

Section 6 and replaces it with the net..u wording, but, again, there is no substantial change, actually, from what was in the former

Section 6. It:, again, allows for thE! int(~gration of POD into Hydro by deleting the references to that, particularly into

Section 2. The same thing in the next Section.

Section 10 of this Bill deletes the words 1 PDD 1 and replaces those words with the 1 Hydro Corporation 1 • Further down in

Section 11, referring to

Section 9 of the Electrical Power Control Act, we are only adding the words 1 0r rural customers 1 ther1"! in this particular section. No other substantive changes throughout

Section 9. fhe old

Section 9 is rE!placed by this new

section 9, bul: really all it does is add 1 or rural customers 1 to that particular part of the Bill . As we go further, no real substantive changes .

Section 15 is repea1ed and again you can sE•e tn

section 15 l:h1:' addition oF 1 and rural customers 1 at the end of 15 (i). And i.n 15 (ii). on l:.he top of page 9, the addition of 1 nor a rural customer 1 • So no significant changes, othE!r than these minor changes to allow l:.he integration of the PDD with Hydro. There are some other minor conSE!qUE!nti.a1 alflendrnents further dotJJn. One regatnds l:he inspection L19 December 12, 1989 Vol XLI of wiring standards. This is notJJ added to this particuJ.ar B:i.LI. so that no power will be given unless a facility has bN!n inspE•ctecl appropriately and approval given . And the next

Section 1 Non --payrnenl: of Charges 1 , this is a s l:andarcl

Section being plac1:!d in this Act: and bEdng put here, aga·in, bHcause of the integration of l:he PDD tArilh the rE!fE!rence l:.o 1 !"ural customers 1 • So il: is nol: tneaJ .ly a change from present policy. Assets and li.abi1tl-:i .es of the PDD as a result of these atrwnclrn1:•nl:.s will rest wi.th the Newfound land and Labrador Hydro Corporation, Aad the forrnE•r Act., tAJh:i .c h implemented the PotJJer Dis l:r·ibu t. ion Districts, The RuraJ E 1 e c l: r i F i c a l:. i o n A c t , tAJi l 1 b r:• rE!pealed upon itnplernent.al:.i.on of these amendments. MR. HEWLETT: Mr . Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Ctn!C'Io!n 13ay . MR . HEWLETT: Min. SpE!aker, pursuant.. ln l.hr::- agreemenl: bl::>t.tJJe(!l1 Lhe ltAJO ijou se Leaders, I adjourn debaLP unt..iJ later in the week. MR. SPEAKER: rhe Mernbt?.r for Cr' •'r' ·n 13t'ly adjourned the debate. I am sure tJJhethE!r ·- MR. BAKER : Mt" . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : rhe hon . Lhe CovE•rntn~:•n t LE!ader. MR. BAKER: l1a ~. n rr l. ijo usC:! Ml". Speakr:'ln, in tenns ol that is perfec~ly okay. procedure All it No. 52 1\ I 9

means, then, i.s I lAJi.ll call a different Order of Business now and I call Order 3. MR. SPEAKER: rhe Chair wants to k notAl what has happened hE!re. MR. BAKER : My understanding, Mr. Speaker, is that the Opposition has moved the adjournment of the debate on this particular Bill because they want an extra day or so to get ready, and that is perfectly okay with me. We can go ahead and call that Order again some · other day; Thursday, Friday or the week after. I would now like to call Order 3. MR.

SPEAKER: Order 3. fhe Motion is that I do now leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to discuss an "Act To Give Effect ro The International Convention On The LatAJ Applicable To Trusts And fheir Recognition." On motion, that the House rE!SOlve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider said Bill, Mt". SpE!aker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! A B i 11, 11

An Act r o The International The Law Applicable ThE!ir Recognition". Give EFfect To Convention On ro Trusts And (BilJ. No. 30) Motion, that Lhe Commit tee report having pas sed thE! Bi11 without amendment, carried . MR. BAKER : Order 4. A BilL "An Act Respecl:.ing The l..20 DE·cernbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI United Nations Convention On Contracts For The Internationa1 Sale of Goods'. (Bill No. 31). Motion, that the Cornrni t LE•e rE!port having passed the Bi 1.1 tJJi.thouL amendment, carried. MR. BAKER: Order 6 . A Bill, "An Act To Anwncl The Education (Teacher Training) Act." (Bill No. 4-8).

Motion, that the:' Cornrni t Lee rE !por L having passed the Bill tAriLhout amendment, carried . MR. BAKER: Order 7. A Bill, "An Act RespecLin~J ThP Department Of Works, Servi .c1:0S and Transportation 11 • (Bill No. 33) . MR. SIMMS : How many Clauses are there? MR. CHAIRMAN: Eighty-six . MR. SIMMS : Moue all eighty-six Clauses . On motion, Clauses 1 through 86, carried. Moti.on, that the Cornrn :iLLe(:• l"c•pOI"l:. h a u 'i n g p a s s '" d l: h e B i 1. 1 tAli 1: h o u L amendment, carried. MR. BAKER : Order· 8 . A Bill, "An Acl: To ArnE!nd l"he Local Road Boards Act.". (Bi11 No . 34) .

Motion, that thr:' CorntTt:i l..l .. E'P t"t:opOI" L having pass1::>d l:h1:- Bill lAJiLhouL amendment, carried . MR . BAKER : No. 52 r~ 2 o

Order 5. A Bill, 'An Act Respecting The Department of No. 26). Fisheries . 11 (Bill MR. CHAIRMAN : Shall Clause 1 carry? MS DUFF: Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon . the ME!mber for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF : Mr. Chairman, I t.l.lould like to continue some remarks in relation to The Fisheries Bill this afternoon, before we finally adopt that Bill .

Yesterday I went into some detail in the four minutes that I had to speak about my very serious disappointment over yesterday's announcement tha -t NatSea would be closing, and that that disappointment did not only relate to the fact that there was going to be a serious job loss in my community, but related more to the fact that at least as I perceive it, and as I think many of the people in St . John's perceive it, the GoVE!rnmE!nt let that plant go without a fair fight. AN HON . MEMBER : ·Thr.d ~i. ·s- not true .

MS DUFF: They did not get mad, they did not g1':!t tough, they did not tab~ action, and thro're is certainly room to believe, and I l1ope [ am tJJrong, that in the message thPy g a v E! l: o N a t i o n a 1 Sea , i f i t t.l.l a s not E!Xact]y that it j_s alright to close the St. John's plant, it certainly was an implied message that that lAJas a b~'!l:l:er opt_ion than L21 Decernbc:!t" 12, 1989 Vol XU closing Burgee or Arnold's Cove. with no real attempt to go for the only fair and humane option. tAJhich would have been to keep all plant s open on a shared downtime.

I thought the Government, perhaps, had far too much sympal:hy l~Jil:h l:he long-term business plans or international companies like NatSea, and it clearly is par··t of their business plan to downsize their fishing plants so thc:~t they can deal with the overcapacity they have in E!Xisting pJ.ants, not only in Newfoundland, bu l:. in NCllJa Scotia, and that thE! pE•oplE :! or :.-31' John's, particularly the fi sh plant workers, have be en 1r-:•cl t:o slaughter like sacrificial lambs becauSE! it did not mattet~ E•nough to this Government to Fight for them.

Now, I arn a lit:tle less 11tad and a little bit happier having heard the comments from the Minister of Fisheries today lAJho says that he is now going to fight, l:ha L he -Ls going to try and insist on keeping that plant opE!n on d1at"e<J downtime, that hE! is going Lo clo something about the Factory freezer trawler licences, and he is going to recognize !:he value oF that particular plant tn the inshore Fishery on the northeast Avalon. I most CE!rtain1y hope he will make good on that commitment.

And if he does, 1 tAlill be !:he Fir·sL per·son l:.o congratuJ.atE• h:irn, because I l:h in k it is imminently possible. I know how credibJ.e NatSea c<:·\n be·. b e c a u s t~ I s a t a n d 1n '"- l~ tAl i I~ h l: h l:' 111 with thE! Cj _l:y of ~'lt . John's Council. BuLLer tAJould noL melt in the-ir mouths lAJhen they try Lo t_r:•JJ you hotAJ tough it is .:tnd hotAJ important it is, but: they are d corporate g-ianL who have diversified extensiveJ.y into mult.i--nal:_ional tnat~kel: .s, ,·utd notAl, No. 52 lVI.

IAJhen they have participa·ted in the good times in this Province, they are just not prepared to participate in the bad times and I think they have to be made to do so. We are all talking as if this is temporary, and everybody is saying that it is a temporary closure until the stocks rebuild, but for some reason or other, and I can well understand it, the fish plant workers do not believe that if this plant closes it is a temporary closure, and, quite frankly, neither do I . I think it depends to a great extE!nt on how much faith you have in the fishery, and what your long-term agenda is in terms of the 'fishery.

And things I have heard said, both by National Sea and by this Government, certainly lead me to believe that it is part of the long-term agenda of both the company and the Government to downsize this fishery, which may be all well and good if what you are talking about is the macroeconomics of international industry, but it does not do a darn thing for the microeconomics of the individual fish plant workers who are going to be laid off with a pitiful compensation package no matter where they are.

I know for the past 17 years oftentimes thE! previous GoVE!rnrnent was c1niticized For moving in and subsidizing certain industries in this Province in order to make them economic enough to stay open, bul: the reason they did that is that they had the re•al compassion to understand that the microeconomics of human individuals is important. r listened yesterday to \:he hon . the Member for Stephenville talking about how important it was L22 December 12, 1989 Vol XLI to save tht:.~ capital so that you would have - the Member for Lapoilc ·- some money to use dotAJn the road sometime when you want to make everything very rational, and criticizing, certainly by implication, the previous Government for having moved in, whether it is the mining sector, the forestry sector or the fishery sector, to subsidize \:hose industries.

But I think you also have to realize that extensive layoffs deplete the capital, whether it is put directly into the business, or put into IAJelfarE! payments or other forms of support: for laid off workers, but they do not only deplete th10! capital, tht::>y deplete the self-respect and the dignity of the workers, and, l:o 1ny mind, that is a far mon• v:i ,ab1r:=• option.

Now, the workers at National S1~a do not. like this GoVE!rni'fiE!nL, takE:' comfort in the fact !:hat NatSea have said,- and I underl:i.nE• that word 'said 1 , l:hat l:hey an?. mothballing this plant for reactivation, because th'''Y do not believe it. And how can they believe it IAJhen th1:dr OtAJn Mernbt:!r yesterday in Hansard said, 1 L.r::·t rnE• say in closing, Mr. Chail"lllan, r will tell you I have noL g:iven up.

I have given up on this piece of steel on the SouthsidE:!, on the configuration of a plant. but. r have not given up on the people .' Now, iF Lhe member says 1 I hav1:! given up on this piecE• of stE·c·1. this configuration of a plant, 1 then that is pretty devastating, because the member, b~·>.iny a member of Government, certainly :is in d position to know more UJ.:'In [ do about what the real agenda of Government is, and Lhat says l:o Ill(' that in spite of Lhe more optimistic co1nmenl:s oF l:.ht> MinistE•r of FishE!riE!S, the ITic•mi:H=•i". and I · knoiAJ he 'Ls a frus \:rated No. 52 r~ 2 2

member today, must really feel that this plant is gone. That is all I can read From these comments. MR. MURPHY : (Inaudible). MS DUFF : That is exactly what was said . I just want to mention for a moment the question of the real state of the fish stocks. NotAl, I know we have the Harris Report and I am not going to underplay the seriousness of the crisis that !Ale have right now in the fish stocks, but it has certainly been denied by Na tSea, from their own research, that the fish stocks are in as bad a condition as is bl~ing said . Even Dr.

Harris, himself , although he certainly is not prepared to backtrack on his re c omme nda t ions, has indica t1:=!d that thE! research that went into developing those figures on the fish stocks was certainly not what it should have been, and I think there is a very real chance, because the research needed to be done a lot better, that the actual situation may not be as grim as it is being pointed out to bE! today.

It does not matter hot.u many graph charts you do or how many computer printouts, if it is garbag1?. in it is garbage out, and you can refinE! bad research as much as you like and not get any nearer to the truth. What the Fi sh plant workers would hav e liked, given that tl'll;!re are questions about the necessity for th e stock reductions, is for Govr:'rnm1:>nt to negotiate a period of grace for th em un til the Federal Govern e ~t can bE! pushE!d to do IAihat it shoul.d have don1 "! a long l~.irne "ago in l~et"ms of rnanag:ing these fish stocks, and th at is get a better handle on the facts.

That is what they are asking !:his Government~. to do, to L23 December 12, 1989 Vol XLI negotiat e a peri od of grac e so that no plants m!E!d to clo se, a\~. least not in the Nati onal Sea configuration, until tJJe knolAI a little bi ·t more about ~ t.uhat tJJe are talking about. Because if Lhe plant closes NatS ea has no intention of ever opening il again, because it does no\ : Fit in with their corporate plan.

I only want to makE! one rtJOJ "e comment, because i\: has becoJn!O· very clear to me, while si tti ng and listening to \:he cornrn1 :!nl:s on this, how important it · is for t.lr is Government to have a grl:!aLI:!r say in the management and jurisd:iclion of the Fishery. W1:> knotJJ th10· Government of Canada d:i.cl a lousy job, ·probably because l~h1:!y do no\: understand the fishery as lAJC:~ll a~:; they should, and because Llwy do n o t p e r h a p s c a r e a s tTl u c h a s l: h E:~ y should. It 111ay nol: be:! as important to the Government of Canada as it is to thE! pE!Ople oF Newfoundland and Labrador.

Brian Peckford knetJJ that . li1:> understood, if he undersLo od nothing e 1 s e , that l: h 1:> F is I'H? r y lAid s more than a corporate boLtom line , that it is part of the whole weave, the warp and lAJnof ' if you like, of \:he lil:e oF Newfoundlanders, their politi cal. social, economic lih~, their family LifE!, the:i .r cliqn:i l.y, U1C::~it~ pride, their identity, whatever you want to call it . lhere is n o \: h i n g a s i 1n p o r t.

Cl n t- ,::1 s L lw fishery :i.n Lhts f>t~ov:i .nc:e, <.·"1cl therefore he Fought like a clog, some say li .kE! a c:r·ack:i .r:·. unl:i .J. he got Lhe Federal GoVE!rnrrH'n l~ L.o agree to place that whole issue of fisheries jurisdiction on a rnl~et:i.ng For lhr::~ Fir·st . Mjn ist.E•rs i~h the nurnb10'r on~C'! pr·ior·-Lty i\:em, <:tild we now have a Premier who is telling us that we do not ne ed more jurisdiction because we wnuld not have l:he ability Lo E'X('Jnci·.~e No . 52 IV 3

it. I hope the Premier tJJi.ll change his mind on that issue and recognize the importance of that issue to the Province of Newfoundland. I hope that the one bright spot that tJJe are going to hear in the economy of this region is not going to be that CN Marine have agreed to have a year-round service out of Argentia on the Clara and Joseph Smallwood, because that will make it possible , not only for mother 1s sons to leave Newfoundland. which is what they !'nay have to do if we have any more plant closures in this Province. but they will have to take their mothers with them.

I would only say once again to the Minister of Fisheries from today I think you are on the right track. Keep fighting and do not stop fighting until they agree to keep that plant open on a part-time basis. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 1 carry? rhe han. the Minister of Fish1:!ries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Chairman, I just wan~: a few very brief words Bill. to have on this I wan t to rep 1 y to some o f l: he statE!rnents made by the Leader of the Opposition during second reading of the Bill, and I note from his comments, Mr.

Chairman, that he supported the ini tiatiVE!S tJJe are now taking with respect l:o the reorganization of ·the Dt'partment of Fishl!!ric?.s. and· h1?. supported the action we have taken with respect to abolishing the Fishing Industry Advisory Board and incorporating it into the L. 211- DE•CE!rrtbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI activities of the Department of Fisheries. I welcome the hon. Leader 1s support in that regard. He was critical, Mr. Chairrnan, in CE!rtain areas and. I supposE!. being Leader of the Opposition, that is what one would expect.

But, by and large, I gaUlE!r from his comments that he supported the Bill and could not offc:!r l:oo 1nany objections to it. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Memb,:!r For St. John 1 s Eas l: in I'H:>r few remarks - I just carne in on the tail end of her cornrn,::>nl:s; [ was at a meeting - talked <:·1bout the plant on the southsid1 :! of l:.he harbour and the nE!ed to kE!E~p that. p 1 a.n t in read inc :! s s For reactivation. We haue talked aboul: that.

We havE! had 1nc::•el:inqs with the various ofFicials, peop1P of NatSea, on that very rnal:l:E!r. [ am encouraged by the fact that they are . moth b a 11 in g the p 1. an l: rather than L.t.Jalking alo~Jay r·l~orn j t. but by virtue of the Fact they an>. mothballing it., it certa:inJ.y ~liVE!'; hope that at some point~. i.n ti.1111:> down the road, maybe the plant Ci'trl reopen, and I certainly hope it does.

I bE :!li eve, if the fish sL(Icks rehabilitate, as we thLnk they wi 11 , if L.t.Je a p p J. y the pI" opE· I" management regi.1ne <'lnd i'ldhul" '=' l:o the normaJ. practice s or conservation, Lhe Fish s l~.o cks lAd ll rebuild and that fish pJan l. to~dlJ th1:!n be back to L.t.Jhat i.l: lAJas b1:!1--0I"t> tl1is tragic sE•t oF' cir·curnstancc::•s occurrc:-d. fhis morning lAJe talb:'d about . L11e problE!tTl t:.hat could ari~ ;t:• L.t.lilh r e s p e c t l: o l: h e i n s h o I" c:! f i s l·ll~ I" y i n S t .

J o h n ' s a n d . c o n t r a r· y t o lAJ h a L i.'l 1 o l: o F p e o p 1 c~ t h i n k • a n d [ s u s p ~~ c l:. a Jot oF' people in Lhis House. certainly in Nc:?.tAJFound1c 'lnd. one is No. 52 1\2 'l

not inclined to give St. John's credit as being a major inshore fishery port. In fact, I believe outside of Bonavista and maybe two or three other inshore fishing ports, St. John's ranks very high : Yesterday, the Premier and I met with the union, and at that meeting was Mr. Charlie Roberts, a well-known St. John's inshore fisherman. I have known Charlie for a number of years, and when Charlte tells me something, I believe him, because I think the man is sincere, and he has b«:·en at it long enough to know tAJhat he is talking about. Yesterday, Charlie told me that from the inshore- sector alone, in St .

John's, the trap fishery, normally there would b1:.> a landinq of four and one-half to five million pounds of fish. That is a fairly substantial quantity of unprocessed fish. In fact, that would sustain a fairly large feeder plant operation. Fet?.der plants say, give them three million pounds of put-through, and they can justify keeping the plant in operation. 1 dm told that the fishery in St. John's will produce an amount of Fish in excess oF that. In fact, thE! four and onE!- ·-half mJ11ion pounds is a Vt:!ry conservative estimate.

Charli .e was telling me that From other sources, quite likely that amount could be almost doubled. We talked abou ·t it, and Ulis morning I invited the union to come to my ofFict~ at 8:00 a.m. and we ha':d a furthE-r discussion on that matter, becaus1;,! it c1:.>rtainly does not give me peace of mind knowing that come spring, when the trap fishery is at its height, that fislwrmE!n i.n St .

Jol1n's t.~.li.l.l L.2 5 DE!CC::•mbE•r 12, 1989 Vol XLI have to want to necessary happening. until the and fish Fishermen prospect fish. dump their landings. r take whatever action is now to prevent that from I do not want to tAJai t traps arl'>. in l:he t.~.Ja l:t:;!r are in the bocd:s and the are the n fa c ~'! d tAli t h l: h '?. of having to dump the :i t~ We talked about: a nurnbE!r oF things. For examplE!, we tAJonde r·r:•cl maybe if NatSea would be interested in reactivating the plant purely as a seasonal operation.

We kno!AJ that the pl<:H1 t is capable of pt~ocessoing about 60 million pounds of Fish a y c·at~, and we know that it is very, very unlikely, indeed it is a certainty, that a ligh l: quan ·t-.i l:y 0 f f i s h lAI i 11 n 0 t c (l m (' r r 0 Ill l. h (' inshore Fishery. Rul :. it rniqhl: wel1 be! that thr:'t~e lAJ:iJl be E·nouqh inshore landings to wan· ant 'l:hat plant being kept open as a seasonal plant to accornrnodal:e l::h ,:• 1990 trap fishery, and rnaybr::• yr::•<H's beyond 1990 . Certainly, rny Pl"Opl:?. are discussing that possibi lity with Mr.

Cooligan and the other gentleman, who is Henry Demone, Chief Executive OFFicer of NatSea. We cannot very IAJE !11 Lc-1 l l:ht:'m to do it; Nal:Sea is a pr·ival:e company. Gran ted they opc!t"a l .. E• by leave and licence of the Government -of Newfoundland and Labrador, but as a prival:l:! co1npdny lhey do have certain rlghls and Cl?.rtain prerogatives, and r do nol: think the Pt~ovince ::L~; i.n any p o s i t i o n t o f o r· c e t h t· rn L: o In e --· o p e n that plant if it is not the ir intention to so do. I t h i n k t h i s tJJ i 11 b e o f t n l: 1:;! r e s l: l:.o thE• hon. the Mc•n1be1 " rot~ ;:; l...

John's East, and oF cour·se 111y friend frorn St. John's ~)ou th, the ques t.i on arose. by Lh1:> union. and I mu s t g .i v E' c r· E• d j l: , L he v o u n q lady, Linda Hyd,:'!, [ ~1('l)(;!ln IIIC!l: a No. 52 R2 1i

more articulate and better spokesman. I am not just saying that for political reasons, because I have nothing to gain by saying that. But I have to say that she handled herself extremely well, and the points she rnade this morning were well made and were certainly well taken. She was a credit to her union and to the people she represents. But we did talk about that, and she raised a point and a very valid one, that NatS1'.'!a occupi1:;!S a very valuable piece of real estate in St. John 1 s Harbour. In fact, you have hE!ard the expression about things being as scarce as hens teeth.

Well, land on the waterfront of this Port, St . John 1 s, is as scarce as hE!nS teeth, there is just no land to be bought. Mr. McCurdy, the union rep, reminded us how long and how hard they had to work to find a place to provide an inshore boat basin for the inshore fishermen. I think eventually they came up with Prosser Rock , I think it is called, and that is far from ideal. But under the circumstances and given the unavailability, if that is the right word, of a better site, they were lucky to get that. So the question came up, uJhat could possibly happen to the NatSea premises?

Is it possible, For example, that one of these days NatSea might get a gE!nerous oFf•:!r from some offshore supply company who might want to moVE! in and buy that waterfront property. buy that big and WE ·ll-constructed metal building as a warehouse or a place j n tA.Jhich to conduct certain typ~s of businesses? And, you know, the morE! we thought about it and talk1 ~d about it, \:he more likely thclt appeared to bE! a reasonable prospect. fhat L26 DE·CE·tTtbc•r 12, 1989 Vol XLI company is obviously strapped Fotn money.

It is a lAJe11-known fact. that NatS•:-a is not . a Wl c!aH:hy company any longer; thE!Y haVE! a very substantial debt load, and they are not flush wi t:h money at this point in time . So tAJho is to say that if an attractive offer were to be made for l:he purcha se of that property, as indeed could very well happ•:!n, th1::!n tA.Je t.~.Jant t.o be sure that that does no l happen. We want that pr•:-mt~;(!S Lo remain as a fishing pr·ern ises, and as a site of a very major and a very important fish processing facility. I now have my people checkin•] with thE!

Registry of Deeds cHid Companies and checking with the owners of National SE•a to ge t l::he de t a i 1 s o n the 1 and o n 1.1.1 h i c h l : h <?. building is E!rectE!d, to find out if it is leased. I understand that is leasehold land , and Nat;,)E!C.'' has a certain lease on the premises. I haVE! askE!d rny people to find out what the details are whE~n the lE!ase is up fotn I"E'IlE!IA.Jal, and to find out, as well, if it is possible that the National Harbours Board, who is Lhe landlord IAJho otA.Jns the J i'lnd, tAli -11 be ablE! to give this Pt"ou ·ince l:lw right to first refusal.

If an d tAJI'll:>ll that land l='U<?r gcH'S up f'o1n sale, the11 I beJiPve l:hr:• Pn)Vin ce should have the option Lo putncha s1:> that land and, jn :U .s t.~.dsclorn, hopefully, allotAI :it Lo r1::!llld in there as a fish proce ssing facili l:y. We c.u··~ tak inq tAJha t·e<H'r stE!pS can bE• taken Lo ensurE· that that: happens .

Becaus1:>, <iS [said a rnolTIE!nt ago, therE' is a clan~~f'l" that if it is left tAJide opt'n, Lh1 ''n quite conceivably one or Lhe se days we could learn that one of l:.h<~' big off -shorE! cornpan]es, Mul:dl or some other company, when HibE!rnia is stc:-unUng, t"u shed ·in and bought that and _you can Forqel: No. 52 roo

it then for all times as a fishing facility. So that is being looked at. Certainly we are going to talk to NatSea about the possibility of providing maybe a seasonal operation, thereby heading off before it starts the problem that I believe wiJ.J. surely ar·ise come spring, that of ~here being too much fish and too little processing capability. We know that in other years the arE!a from Cape St. Francis up in my han. friend's District, St. Mary's the Capes, had a reasonably good fishery.

Last year, for example, the Fishery would have been a total disaster were it not for the factory freezer ship that t.uas stationed in the Harbour. Of course, the Polar Storm, which tAJas engaged by my Department, moored itself I believe in River Head, St. Mary's - The Capes, in Petty Harbour and other parts of that area, and bought surplus fish. I forget the exact number of tons that were bought, but I do know that the amount of fish tha·t t.uas salvaged by virtue of that operation made the exercise extremely worthwhile. AN HON. MEMBER : fhe Cape North (inaudible) . MR . W.

CARTER: The CapC::' Not~th , as my friend reminds tne, tAJas stationed in Placentia Bay, and I understand that it, too, succeeded in purchasing a large quantity of fish, again fish that would - AN HON. MEMBER : Petit .FortE• and ParadiSE! . MR . W. CARTER: Petit Forte and Paradise. fish that wou1d ot:h,:>rtAr.is'::> have L27 DecernbE•r 12, 1989 Vo1 XLI been dumped. Mr.

Chairman, if there is one thing thaL th~is Province cannot affor·d r·ighl: notAl­ one thing - in light of all t:hr::o publicity we are getting becau se of the depleU.on of out~ fish stocks and the cost that tAiill b1:> incurred in coping with that problem by both the Federal Government and the Province and, of course, by the prival:e SE!Ctor, if there is onE• thing lAJE! cc:1nnot. afford to allow to happen il:. is l:o have one pound of fish dumped in this Province during D90 and succeeding years, because thaL would be sending an entirely wrong message to the powers that bE:!, Lo the other f i s hi n g c o u n l: r i e s o F l: h e world.

For examplE!, how caul d rny h on . f r i e n d , U11:'! P ,~ (•llti u r , rationalize his comments lhis morning to the Spanish Ambassador when he made a strong case ror conservation, For Spain l:o takE! a more responsible attitude towards the fishery? 11ow cou1d tAle rationalize that kind of a statement if we were to allow Fish to be dumped in this Province, with all the headlines 1t will generate next summer, because we did not have l:he capac'il:y l:o process that fish? It lAJou1cl rni'lke a j o k e oF aLl t hal:. tAle h <.'1 v ''! b n ,,. n saying and all that tul':• have bc :•c•n d o i n g .

I c C.'\ n t e l. 1 y o u n o tAJ , M ,~ . Chairman, that tAJe hdve no intention of allotAJi.nq l:ha L l:.o happE·n. So, givE•n a11 lhE!Se concE•t"ns, Mt". Chairman, it rnight tAJ1"1l b1:;! l:hat there is justificat.ion for the NatSea p1ant to reopen strictly and purely on a seasonal basi s, maybe, l:o accornrnodal:e l:.he inshor'~ f i s h e r y . I r E! c a 11 , t:IAJ o rn o n L h s ago, entertaining a delegation from Bau1:i .nE!, Pouch CovE", PorLugal Cove, forbay ~nd parts of St. John's, and I beJ.ir:~ve <Hll:! or Lt•JO Ft"om . · l:he hon. Metnbet~ Fot~ No . 52 R27

Fe1nryland' s District, IAJho came to my office desperate, begging me almost. to make sure that the plant in Witless Bay would be rebuilt. They understood the problem, the time constraints, they understood the fact, of course - MR. CHAIRMAN : The han. Member's time has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave . MR. W.

CARTER : They understood the constraints under which we operated and the fact that to rebuild that plant in these present circumstances would require me to come up with a pretty good explanation, because it could be said by others that there we are, allowing plants to close in one area and then encouraging plants to rebuild almost in the same area. But we took a chance on it. These people said, Look, we need that plant. If we do not have it, we are going to be in real trouble. So we took a chance and we started action on attracting a new operator .

Luckily, we found that nrO!W ope!rator and I arn happy to re!port today that come 1990, the fish plant in Witless Bay will be rebuilt and will be fully operational. In fact, to ensure that. it dorO!s, tA.Je have required thr~ new ope1nators to post a bond- I believe it is a cash bond - in trust with the Department, guaranteeing the Department and the fishermen against the eventuality of that plant not being in operation and not being rebuilt, as is outlined in their proposal. L28 DecernbE•r 12, 1989 Vol XLI Mr. Chairman, I thank l:he hon. Members for leave to a1low TnE! to say these few remarks.

I can assure the han. Member for St. John 1 s East and l:he gentleman r=or St. John's South, that while we have no responsibility For what happened to that plant on Lhe Southside, and I am being quite honest, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, the rnanagernr:!n t. of fish stocks does not fall vri.thin the ambit of the Provincial Government. Despite that, IAJE' intend to bend over backiAJards t:o do everything humanly possib}E! to ensure that the hardship that will be imposed on the people affected, will be minimized as much as possible. Thank you very much, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR.

CHAIRMAN: The han. the Member for Ferryland . MR. POWER: Mr. Chairman, I IAJant t:.o say a 11:!lAJ words about the Bill itself and about the fishing industry in Newfoundland, in particul.ar as 'it relates to National SE•a' s c'losut "E! of the plant on the Southside. Although I agreE! IAiit:h sornr:' o\ LhE• things thE!

Minish~r just:. said, dnd I obviously concur with some of his comments about the need For the glut fishE!ry to be lakE!I'l can• of, the plant in Witless Bay which is badly needed, if you talk to individual workers who are displaced at National Sea Products this week, they wi.ll sL.iY LhE!Y an,~ not in very much agreemenL with what the Minister has said or with what the Provincial GoVE!rnrnen L hds done. In fact, almost 8V(•tny worker I have spoken Lo, sotTtE:• of whom live in my District , 'in Bay Bulls, PE!tty Harbour and Lhe G.o!Jlds, and some of Lhe people tklho No. 52 f08

live on Shea Heights, are absolutely disgustE!d, becauSE! ·they feel they have been deserted, absolutely deserted by the Provincial Government in this Province. That is the reality of what the workers feel. Now, we all know the fishing industry is in trouble, but these individuals who live on Shea Heights, and who live in my District, honest to God believe that the Provincial Government did not stand up and fight for them as individual workers in this Province. They really believe the NE!WfoundJ.and Government concurred with a large international company which says it is better to lay off some people in St.

John's than to lay off people in Burgee or Gaultois. Now, I want to say to the Newfoundland Government and to the Minister, if that is the attitude you have, you are going to find it very, very difficult to get re-elected, to get any support in St . John's or the other urban areas of this Province; when you look at the problems in Grand Falls and the problems in St. John's.

If anybody thinks it is easy or easiE!r or less difficult to make a mortgage payment on Shea Heights than it is to make one in Burgo=:!o when you are not working, if anybody thinks it is easier to pay on a pickup in Burgee when you are not LIJorking than it. is in St . John's wh,?.n you are not working, then aLl. I can say is, the Minister of Social Services is going to have an awful lot of people on his doorstep.

Because the reality is that it is probably more difficult to make your payments, to keep your family together in an urban area when you are unemployed than it is in a rural area when you are unE!mployed. NotAl, it: is not easir::•r in either place; but anybody t.uho L.29 DE!CE•rnbr::·r 12, 1.989 Vol XLI thinks tt is easier in an ud) <''n arE!a dOE!S not understand the lAJay people have to live in an urban centre.

And I will tell you there is an awful lot of people at that plant on the Southside who are saying, why did not the Newfoundland Government demand of National Sea, demand - now you can say we have no control ovE•tn t.hE!TTI because they are a big company and it is the Federal Government's fault, and the fish quotas an~ .in trouble - but why did Lhe Newfoundland Government not demand instead of closing down 500 individuals, 500 farnili.':'s in ~3 t. John's and aLLowing tt,~.Jelve months work in Burg eo, tJJhy did H11~ Newfoundland Government not demand, order, d:ir1 :!ct that you must keep the St.

John's plant open for six monl:hs dnd kC !I)P Burgee open fo1n six months, t.Hld let it work that lAJay until Lh1:> fish stocks rebound . NotAl, tAJhy could you not do that? Now with a11 due credit. to illY differences lAJi.th Brian Peckfor·d over l:he last coup1E! oF Y')aJ"S, [ guarante~~ if he was s :i L l:ing over· in that seat he wou1d not have sat therE! chairing a Cabin<:•t CoHlllli l.l. E!l'! and 1 is ten in g to N a U.u n a l ~3 ~~a Products saying, 'WE! aJ"e just g o i n g t o d o t h i s . ' (l n d l: h ''' o Uw r

part is that tl'd.s has happenr-cl so quickly and so easily, wiLh so much concurrence by the Federal Government and by Lhe Provinc ial GovernrnE:'nt, that. iL noto~.J sperns that. when these internal:.ional cOJllpanies come in, they knolAJ thE•y iH'e not going to b,, in f-,)r a l'ldt"d l:.iJrl!?; they know they at"e gcd .nq Lo be in For a logical, S(:'quenl:ial, rati .onaJ. analysis oF lAJhy they h<.'tue to close down plants. And the other thing [ uJa n t Lo sa.y~ Mr. Chairman, is that: 1 dill s j ( k and tir':'d, al sa·, as d Mr::•tnber No. 52 f\/9

represL:?.nting an inshore fish·ing District, of listening to the sanctimonious FPI and National Sea Products. If you listen to those two companies, the only culprits in the fish stock problem are the Portugese, the Spanish, and the poor old scientists up in Ottawa who did not have enough money to do research. Talk to some of the draggermen who worked with National Sea and FPI, and five years ago, when they finished dragging up off the coast of Labrador, the sea was white, absolutely white with fish that was thrown away because it was not big enough to be really profitable fish.

National Sea and FPI deserve to take some of the blame for the destruction of the fish stocks in this Province, but when you listen to them, they did not do anything wrong, they were always concerned about the stocks. ·I find in National Sea's comments this weEd< almost the same disregard for thL:.=!ir employees; the way they let the announcement go on, almost trying to gel: the Minister of Fisheries and the Provincial Government to make the dirty announcement for them. They treated their workers with the same disregard they treated the fish stocks.

No wonder their company is in trouble, and their company is going to be in more and more trouble. And lAJhen I hE!ar thL':' MinistPr of Fisheries saying today that maybe some of the solution for the plant on t:he Southside is to ope:>n it up as a seasonal plant, the Provincial Government better be very. very careful of trying to do thc:•se things in an ad hoc manner. How can you open up that large plant on the Southside of St. John's and say you are going to be a b 1 e to s .a tis f y your U . I .

L.30 DE!Cember 12, 1989 Vol XLI requirements, ten weeks work or twelve weeks work, and you are going to be able to do i l: on lhe inshore fishery, when already on the Avalon Peninsula you have an awful lot of small inshore fish plants which are not going l:o get resource short plant fish bE !cause of the cutbacks in quota? Wh~~re~ are all those fish plants along the=>. southern shore and in Conception Bay going to f:ind f"i.sh stocks to satisfy their workers?

So all you aJ~e going l:o be do:inq if you open up that large plant on the Southside that only has access to a couple of m:iJ.lion pound s of fish, is you are going to hat;e /1.00 workers trying to satisfy their U.I. out of it, you are going l~o find that all you will do is displace. Somebody on Lhe Southside rnay get U . I .. bu l somebody in other parts of the Avalon Peninsula will not . So you have to be very, very careful .

And I say to the Minister, as this thing starts. and as j t. unF 'oJ.cls with FPI doing the same:- th:inq, our Provincial Government and our Federal Government has to start saying to these cornpard.c::•s that they hauL:> a responsi.bilil:y to these workers. It is not just Lhr:• Minister of Social Serv ices who has to worry about these poople now. I found in the National ~)c'a announcement this uJeek a v e r~t callous disregard For a lot of long-term employees, and 1 Rlso find a Vo'!.ry poor Understanding O[ the social dE!Tnographics oF i:Tyinq to live in a city <:'ls oppo sed to living in rural Newfoundland.

All T can say ·is l IAiiH1t to encourage l:he MinisL t!r of FishE•ries, when FPI comes :in and w h e n N a t i o n a 1 S e~ a c o mE! s b a c k tAli. l~ h some::• rnot~e bad nr:•tAJS, to s.Lar·t:. putting up a re~l fight. At least No. 52 rn o

.. let them know when they go back to their corporate board room that they cannot come into Newfoundland and take us for granted, that tJJe do have control over fish processing licences, if nothing else, and there are things we can do, and to not start those meetings and negotiations and dis cuss ions with the attitude that we really cannot do anything, the fish stocks are in bad repair, and the people ar·e going to get laid oFf anyway.

I can only encourage the Minister of Fisheries and the Government to take very hard stance with these companies when they come in tJJith some very bad news for us over the next few months. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I am only going to take a moment, because I already overextended my time in my previous remarks. My colleague from Port de Grave wants to take

part in this debate, but I think, while it is fresh on our minds, I have to respond to some of the things that my han. friend and colleague across the way just said . First of all, he talked about Government taking responsibility for the closure of the NatSea plant . Mr. Chairman, that is not correct, and I think the han . Member knotJ.Js that. Looking at aLl. l:he facts, then he must know l:hat this Pr·ovince, even though, I suppose, tJJe can demand anything and we can insist on anything and tJJe can cajole and tAle can beg and we can do everything e1se. But the decision to close the St.

John's p1ant tAJas that oF l:he officials of Lhe National S1~a Producl:s Company. That decision IAJas a corporate decis io n made in thE! board rootn oF that company. Now, Mt ". Chairm an, ther·e are LiAJO Ul D'~cemb,~r 1.2, 1989 Vol X U different situations in th e Province. National Sea was not subject to a restructuring agreement, it tJ..Jas not l::he subjr::!ct of a privatization annange!TIE!rlt, as is the case with FPI . Fishery Products International, as .'Al(' aJ .l know, was restructured, subsequently privatized.

Under the Act privatizing Fishery Products International, they undertook to do certain things, one being that thrc!y wou1d bn requir·ed to give the Ptnovinc'~ three months notice of their intentions to close a plant or plants, and that once that noLice tJJa s served , l: hen e i L he I" or b o l: h Governments had it within their power to do certain things, namely, to carefully assess the financial circumstances surrounding the company and t.o offer the company a subsidy l:hat: would offset any losses incurred by that c om p a n y by v i r l:. u e o I' having to continue in operation by order of the Governmenl :s .

That is part of the Privatization Bill. In fact, I believe I have a copy hE!re. If I do, I shaLl t"eacl i L into the record oF Lhe 1-lous,?., becauSE! it doE•s set up quH.-.e clearly a different situation vis-a-vis the sit.uatoion IAJ.:it.h NatS,?.a. fhe Government does hav1=>. Lhat: right, Mt". Chairman, in t.he Cc'\sr;• of NatSea, l:.o oFF<:·r a subsi.dy t.o keep the plant operational , but that is not as si111ple d·; it 1niqht sound.

Because iF Lhat tAJC: :•t"e l.o be undertaken by Lhe Government, then, of course, there is Lhe possibility of the countervail raising its head . lhere are p e o p l e IAJ h o s a y L h a t rna y b E! U1 ~~ countervail threat is being used as an excu~;e For nol: t.aki .nq SUII11? a c t. i o n , b u t , M I" . C h a i r ITI a n , tAle h a v C:" be':'n t.old l:.hat il:. 1~; a v~::•t"Y rPal l: h r E! a l:. , a n d , i n fa c L , i F tAle IAJ c• t" r::• No . ':>2 '' 'l I.

to provide subsidizes under certain circumstances, that not only would the countervail affect l:he company concerned, but it would affect the whole Atlantic east coast fishery. Therefore, any actions taken in that regard with that kind of a threat hanging over, Mr·. Chairman, would have to be very carefully assessed as to the consequences it would have on the future of the Canadian fishing industry as a whole. Yes, I have it here. This is a

section of the FPI privatization agreement, February 17, 1987 Clause 5. It states, 'If the Board of Directors of FPIL at any time approves the permanent closure of a plant, the approved action shall not be proceeded with for ninety days after notice of the approved action is given to Canada and Newfoundland.

In ' the event that either or both of Canada and Newfoundland oppose the approved actions, then FPIL, Fishery Products, shall continue operations at the existing levels and the party or parties so opposing that action shall assume the additional cost associated with the continuation of the existing levels of operations which are incurred after the ninety day pE!riod.

The cost so assumr?d, including the loss of income to FPIL, shall be determined by reference to a Firm of chartE!red accountants agr·eed to by Canada and Newfoundland and FPIL or, in the absence of such agreement, as determined by reference to arbitration as set out below. If both Canada and Newfoundland oppose the action contemplated, the cost associab~d thE!rewi th shall be bo1"nr:~ equally. If any disagreement arises between Canada and Newfoundland and FPIL tJJi th reference to, or any rnat l:r:'!r arising thE!reunder upon which thE!

U2 DPcr:'lnber 12, 1989 Vol XU parties cannot agreE!, thE!n any such disagreement shall be referred to arbitration by a single arbiter in accordance t ... rith The Arbitration Act, which decision shall be bind ·ing and conclusive on the par·ties t:o th:is agreement. ' So, therein, Mr. Chairman, is t.uha t makes NatSea different from FPI. Now, then, let us assume For· a moment that the Province, either working alone or in conjunction with thE! Federal Governrnr:Hll:, c !"los r::! to oppose or to invoke this Clause of the Privatization Agt"E!E•rnen'L.

We have been l:old that all kinds of possibilities exist for problems, the main onr?., oF course, being the countervail . The MernbE!r for Kilbride (Mr R. Ayl.t ... JaJ"

d) shakes his hE•ad. I am noL a lawyer. I am not an expert on such matters. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, the whole business of countervailing tariffs are becoming much rnore sensitive now that we have fr'E!e tr·ade. l"hE•J"t?. is a lot more attention being focused on the countervail Lhan Ult:'l"r:=! tAJa.s before the FrE!e Tr·ade Agr'ee>flJE!IlL became effective. rheJn(:' i.s another pr·oblE!rn, of cou1nst::!, Ml". Chairman. As desirablE~ as i.t 'is to plnovide that kind or Cl sulnicly to ker:•p a fish plant, or a nu11tber of fish plants in opc!rati.on, tAihPn• do~~ s i t end?

There tAla s h a 1n clly a fish plant in Newfoundland last year that rnacle money. r can narne at least a half clozE~n JTic~jor· inshore fish planl:s t.hat lost rnoney, and, I suspE!Cl, if t:hE!Y continue n r? x t year, t.ui 11 con t. in u e to lose monE•y. MR. MAT'TH EWS : No. S2 1n2

May I say something, Mr. Chairman? MR. W. CARTER: Yes, of course. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the hon. Ministe!r giving me this opportunity. In discussions with both fish companies, but in particular with Fishery Products International, since you refer to what I call the key Clause in the FPI agreement, where either party can object to referral to chartered accountants and then pick up the losses jointly, or individually, as Governments. Has Fishery Products International shown the Government what it would cost?

Have they given you any preliminary figures or guesstimates on, say, what it would cost to keep a plant, or two. or three or four plants open? They are saying they lAJould lose money. You have inferred that they would lose money. I know there would have to be a referral to a reputable chartered accountant's firm, that is understood, but has someone looked at a bol:tom-line figure? If the Harbour Breton plant, for :instance, is to operate next IJt'!al~ at the same capacity, or at reduced capacity, let. us say at reduce!d capacity. what would that do to l:he bottom--line Figure?

Has anyone carne up wtth that so that we would have some rough idr:-a as to what we might bE! talking about in the way of a subsidy? MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W . CARTER: I suppose in the have had more past than L.33 DE!Cernber· 12, 1989 month we a dozen Vo1 XLI meetings with FPI and almost as many with National Sea, and t11ose questions, by-the-way, have come up, as to what extent GovernmE!I1t would have to subsidiZE! a plant. or plants, to make them viable from FPI' s point of viE!lAJ. I do not tJJant to start throtAring around figures, because they are still being tAJorked on.

I should inForm the House that we haue - I believe we haue already done it, by l:he way - engaged people lAJho a1"1:! specialists in that Field, chartered accountants, to check the figures, check any Figurr?.s wr?. get from the two co1npani.r:·s. Because while we are not suggesting that these rnE•n <H'E' going to pad the books, or lie, or deceive the Government, CC:!I"ta:i.n1y we want to be satisfied, tAJe IAJcH1t to satisfy ourselves, by prof e s s i o n a 1 s , t h a t: the fig u r e s IAJ e get arr:~ accurate and can be substantiated. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. Member's time has elapsed . SOME HON .

MEMBERS: By leave. MR. W. CARTER: We intend to do that. YE:'ster·day in l:he House onr:~ of l:h(;~ gonl:lt:!IIH~n opposite, it m:ight haue be1:!n Ur(• Member For St. Mary's- rhe Capl:!S, asked our position on the Fish going l:o Nova Scot.ia. I I~E!pl t,,,d that we would do whatever we could to prevent: that from happening, that tAle IAJouJ.d not tak"=' too lei ncl1y to seeing vessels sailing past ~:;t. John's and maybe Burgee or some other plants that were being underutiJ.ized, and Fish being caught. in our t.uaters and taken to Nova Scotia fat~ processing. · And that is true. Mr· .

Chairman. statement and No. 52 IAJP we rndke b<::~se Lha L our I~ 3 3

arguments on four very fundamental principles. We believe that if those principles are applied and adhered to, the principle of adjacency, the principle of historic usage, for example, the principle of economic efficiency, and the principle of economic dependency, who can argue that fish caught on the Funk Island Banks, on the principle of adjacency, should br:1 taken to Nova Scotia and not landed in the plants adjacent to or near the Funk Island Banks or the Northern Grand Banks? Who can argue that we do not have basis under the historic usage principle?

I mean, our forefathers fished those waters, I suppose while the buffalo were running wild on what is now Halifax. Who can argue that economic efficiency is not a sound principle on which to base the fact that that fish should be landed in Newfoundland? Surely it is more economical to land that fish in otherwise underutilized plants in Newfoundland, as opposed to taking it all the way to Louisburg or Lunenburg or Canso For processing, greater distances that are costly and jeopardize the quality of the product. And who can argue, of course, Mr.

Chairman, that economic need or dependency is not a good principle on which to base that argument? Who can argue that Newfoundland does not have greater economic dependency on that fish than do the fish plants in Nova Scotia or any other part of the world? So, in answer to gentleman 1 s question -· get a chance during the han. I did not Question Period, because I try to keep my 1_31~ December 1.2, 1989 Vol XI..I answers short ··· we a1~e rnaki119 a strong case that fish caught in our waters bt':! land~O!d in our Newfoundland ot.uned and ope r·a l:.E!d fish plants. We do it on these four principles.

Now, conversely, if thE!SE! principles are adopted, as !AlE! hope they wil1 be, there ar'E! SOITIE! downsides to it, as well. Whi.le the Province would repatriate probably 8,000 or 9,000 metric tons of fish from Nova Scoti.a by virtue of applying thos1:! four principles, it would have sorne downsides in the Province, because what you are saying then j s last in, first out, pretty well. So it might well be that the mid-distance, the Scandinavian longliner quota would be on the block. rt might t.uell be l:hat a very substantial reduction would occur' in the Resource Short Plant Program. AN HON.

MEMBER: That is a strong likelihood. MR. W. CARTER: A very strong likelihood. 13ul- if we can repatriate 8,000 or· 10,000 pounds of fish frorn Noua Scot'i .a, then that is greater, of coUI"SE•, than these two programs put together . And, hopefully, if we could do that, then il: rni<jhl: well be that !Ali th the PI"OpE!I~ ld ncl of" negotiations, the Newfoundland Government would haue the righL, maybe, to reallocate soll!l':! oF !:hal: fish to a m:i.d--distance fishery Ol" to a Resour·ce Short Plan!:: Program.

I say maybe, and I underline l:he t.uor·d 'mayb1:'! 1 bE!Caus'? u.Je do not haVE! at tl'd.s po-.i.nt. in time the legis 1a ti ue au thori l:y to take that ki.ncl of acl:ion.. But, certainly, it is a case !:hat t.ue would make and make strongly. AN HON. MEMBER: No. ''>2 IBII-

(Inaudible) position on that? MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, yes. I suppose in tl1e history of Newfoundland, certainly since 1949 - I can say this tJ.Jith all honesty - there has never been a more concentrated effort on any given set of circumstances or problems than is being given to this problem. We have had a Committee now since shortly after we were sworn in as Government, and the Federal Government, to their credit, recognized tile impending crisis and immediately set up a Cabin1=:!t Commit tee, headed by a man whom I know very well, The Right Honourable Joe Clark, and on which Mr.

Crosbie is serving and several other - AN HON. MEMBER : You supported them? MR. W. CARTER : I supported them, yes, and I tJ.Jas very proud to do it. Very, very proud to do it. I prob'ably would have done it today if he was running. I have a lot of respect for him, and I give him credit. The Premier and I met with him on August 23, and I can tell you now that we would not have rE!CeiVE!d a better reception or a more attentive ear from a Newfoundlander or from a Liberal MembE!r of a Federal Cabinet.

The rnan lAJas very sympathetic, very understanding, and expressed a great deal of interest in doing something to help Newfoundland over this critical period. But, Mr. Chairman, I was point.ing out, and I am going to take my seat now, that there has b~:!1 :>n a massive effort made in the past number of montlls by officials in my Department - L3 ~.> DeU!ITibE!r' 12, 1989 Vol XU AN HON. MEMBER: Did you iay (inaudible)? MR. W. CARTER: Yes, and he did a for me, too . I through no fault of v f?.ry lost his. good that job one But, Mr.

Chairman, we have mad E! a massive effort and I give a lot of credit, as the Premier did yesterday at tile press confE!rE!nce, to officials on both sides, and to the Federal Task Force. M1~. I<E!n Stein, on a daily basis, is tn this Province meeting with my officials, working hard day and night. There is no regard for time or effort, Sunday, Saturday, it does not rna t ter tJ.Jhat l:iiTle of the week or lJJhat tilllt:' of l:he day.

But there has been a very big effort made, and I rep1::1a t. l.1.Jha t I said a moment ago, that I doubt . :Lf there has been such a concentrated effort made on any single issur: :!S since Confederation as we have seen madE:1 on this issUE!. And it. is working very well. I think the fact that yesterday Mr.

Crosb ie could stand up and announce a number of programs in rE•sponse l·.o the crisis that is imrninr:.:1nl: r-t~om the closing of the NatSea p1ant:, 1 think the Federal Task Force l.1.1iJ l have to agree that most of the initiatives that have been tak en to date, and most of th e initiatives that will be taken, emanated from the Pt"ovinc: ial T 1:1 ~; k Force .

And I think it is Lo !:heir credit and to l:.he crE!d:l. t. o f the Federa1 Task Force Lhat l":hey l.I.IUI~I:! wi1ling to listen and to work 1.1.rith the Provincial Task Force, c~nd when they sat.1.1 a ~~oocl id(:'a, i.l. cJ·i d not rnal:l:er lAJhE!I"e it Cdme From, obviously LhE!Y wer'E! tJ.ri'lJing l~o adopt that idea and that course of action and incorporatE! :i.t. in LI'H"i.r overall plan. So I give full credit: to both Task Fol"CE•s, and I can only hope l":hat Lhoy tAiil.l No. 52 R 3 ':.i

continue to work in co-operation with each other and, at some point in time not too far distant down the road, we wi 11 be able to announce other programs that will have even far greater impact on the future economic diversification of our Province. MR. HEARN : Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Member for St. Mary 1 s -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman .

This is certainly an issue with which we could have a lot of fun playing politics, but it is little consolation today to the people who work over on the Southside, and to many others who will be affected in the next few weeks, that we are in here blaming each other for what is happening in the fishery. I listened with interest to the han. Minister 1 s comments and agree with many of them certainly, as we all do as NE!Wfoundlanders, but as he finished up he was talking about the Task Forces, both of which are made up of very qualified people, and I am sure lAJill do a credible job.

However, their job is not a pleasant one, because their main job is to react to what is happening in the fishery, to put in place support programs, etc., and that, in itself, is a poor substitution For a steady job. So the point is, I suppose, that where at all possible, governments can play a part to try to keep as many of the plants open as possible. What we closure are s E!ei ng he!re with the oF National Sea, and I L36 DeCE!TnbE•r 12, 1989 Vol XLI raised it a couple of days ago, is the fact that a major plant is being closed here in St.

John's. in Newfoundland, a plant that ordinarily processed between 30 million and 4·0 million pounds oF product. That product is not going to be dispersed to other parts of the Province. Some of it wi 11 , but a l a r g E! p e ln c E! n tag e of i t: is going to be brought outside the Province. Unfortunately, when FPI comes down with its decision, undoubtedly there will be plant closures, at least that is what tAle are being told, there wt:Ll bE· consolidation, there will be people put out of work.

And evE'n if things start turning around as of now, hopefully lAJe have hH:. 1nock bottom, and iF we have learned anything at all frorn the experiences of thc:1 past, tAle t.~.Jould think, we would hopE! that lhE· future of the fishery is not a thing of the past, that there j s a future. BecaUSl:;! if ther'1=>. is not, then a lot of us are going to have pretty hard times aheah, and a lot of people in the Province ar'E! in for some pretty desperate times. I am not sure, Mr.

Chainnan, whether or not we are playing into the hands of the compan ies, and For awhile I am going to put on my N.D.P. hat, the one tJJil:h which L.he Member for Pleasantville (Mr. Noel) should be familiar, i:llld I dm sure he IJJill agre~E! 1.1.Ji lh rn(•. We have l~.lAJo major cornpard .Ps, bot.h of whom are now playing both sides against the middle. There are going to be winners on two fronts. fhe consolida ·l:i on is going to enable them to opera te · fetJJer plants 1=-or a larger percentage of the t:ilflE! . Right noiAJ they ar~ operating al: 1naybe anywhere from 40 _., 70 pe~r· c~~nL efficiency.

By closing a nurnb1:>r of plants and E·lirn:i.natinq a nurnb(•r of trawl1:!rs and I.I.Jorkers and people No. 52 R36

in management, and what have you, their operations become consolidated to the t:ime where hopefully they will be efficient. Now, what happens as the turnaround comes, and hopefully there will be a turnaround? The quotas increase, · the companies pick up more product, and the efficient plants that they will be operating now will become more efficient, so the companies become richer. Can you see them five years down the road taking some of the excess product they have gotten and bringing it down to Burgee or Grand Bank or re-opening the St. John's plant, or whatever?

I would suggest to you that the answer is no, they IAlill not. If they are let close plants I said, if they are let close plants - these plants will not re-open. The company is looking at the bottom line, as perhaps companies should . That is why they are in the business, and that is why tJJe are not. We are in here to look after people, they are out there to look after profits and there is quite a di.fference. We are supposed to be concerned tJJi th the people, their bottom linE• is profits. And if they consolidate to make their companies viable, those companies will become richer and richer.

If Newfoundlanders out around today have any dollars to invest, I would suggest to them that they run out and buy shares in FPI and National Sea, which are now at a pretty low price. Because these companies, five or six years down the road, if 'there is a turnaround to any degree in the fishery, will become extremely viable operations, and the priCE! will be paid by the communities, includtng St. John's and the surrounding communities here, who are aFfec t.:~d L37 DE!cernbE!r 12, 1989 Vol XLI by step one. The price has b:)en paid by these people. What do you do about it:.?

That is where the social conscience has to come in, and that is the part Governments have to play. We do have a say in what will happen with F PI . If F PI c 1 o s e s p 1 an l: s , this Government and the Federal Government can go l:o l:hE:~m and say no, you do not . You kN !p that plant open, and tAJe tJJ'ill WOI 'TY about the price to pay afterwards. National Sea: Perhaps th e Provincial Government does not have much clout with Nat:lona] Sea, but the Federal Governrne .n t does .

Because if National Sea is not allowed to transfer l:he 30 llli1l.ion or the 40 million pound of product which it generally proces se s to any other of its facilit':i .E!S, then it might not rush to back away from the Southside. If I were sitting in t:he SE!at of the han. Member for St. John's South, I lAIOuld be putting pressure on my colleagues to talk to the Federal GovernrnE!nt, to suggest Lo them that they not let National Sea transfer its quota From th e plant. rhat is Uw only sav ·iour at present. Because once the jobs are gone, once Lhe planl:.s a1~e downgraded, the chances of rebuilding are uery slirn.

We hdve tiAIO vei"Y rich compani es , on E:! operating mainly out si de the Province, using Newfoundland Product, and l:he oth1?.1" op,~r·al:.ing at least wj thin the Proui n c E!. In the meantime, tAle hav ~~ a nurnb E! r' oF Newfoundlanders who are out of work with no other altE:'rnat .iue except to accept soctal program s put . in place, or l:o pack up and head for the rnain1and. That is nol: a very bright future For Lhe people. I hope that internally , tAiithin Government, lAJil:hin C,'lbinel:, No. 52 R 3 '/

that the rumors coming out are not true, that there are not power plays taking place, that the Member for St. John 1 s South has not paid the price because he tJJas not in Cabinet and because the Member for Burgee was, as we are going to see with the university, where we see the university, if there is one - there should not be one established, by the way. I wiJ.l say that. There should not be a central university. But if there is one established, we wi1.1 see it in Gander.

We will not see it in Lewisporte, where all the original support for the university came from, by the way, and the people who have lobbied and worked and put the whole thing in place came from Lewisporte, but I would suggest to the Member that the university will be in Gander because he is not in Cabinet and his colleague is . It would have been in Grand Falls, but I am afraid it wi 11 not be now. So, I would hedge my bets that it will be in Gander, simply because of the power plays.

I certainly hope that the rumor is not true, that the pressure is being put on the Federal Government and FPI to make changes in their program so as to selectively, to the desires of this Government, close pJ.ants that this Government wants to see closed, and lE!aVe opE!n plants that sit in Districts belonging to certain Members on the Opposite side. I hope it is not factual. It is only a rumor, but it is a very, very strong rumor . In fact, I can go a little bit further than that, but ·we might have more to say on that latr:~r on.

If that is Factual and if you think that politics has been played so far t.~lith this issue, then 1 you ain 1 t seen nothing yet. 1 Because if this Government is going to try to L38 December 12, 1989 Vol XLI manipulate the situation that is as bad as it is, then we ar'E! in for a real racket. Hopefully, as I say, this is not true, bE!Cause this is too serious an issue to play politics with. As I say, our bottom line is people. We should be interested in keeping jobs alive.

We can only do that iF · we tJJork collectively, provincially, federally, and whatever else, because we are being taken for a ride by the companies, number onr:>, in relation to the consolidation and the effect it tJJi.ll have dot.IJn the road, but secondly, in thE! pressure to get Governments to bend, and this Government is starting to move, and I guess e1J1?.n sorne of us are, saying. lAJC: :!ll, lAJE! can keep an extra plant alive perhaps if we lE•l them haVE! the resource short, if we let them have the middle distance, if we let them have the extra quotas that have been given out mainly to Nova Scotian firms, by l:he way. in the last fetAJ years. and tf WE!

J.pt them cut into the inshore allowance, which we should not . But if they get this extra grab, which tl1ey are after, tt. ciPpr:•ncls upon how the quotas come dc11.tJn. lrJ1?. might be able to keep an Pxlra plant or two open iF tAle gel: l~.his E!Xtra product. If we ~rive it to them, and some of lhem maybe we should, whatever is more beneficial. We have to makE! Lhe bE!St USE! of the resource. therE! j s no doubt about that. But Lhey are coming at it from both sides. They are looking for Lhe extra allocations and. in the lllt!i:~n Lirne, they are consolidal: .ing !:heir efforts.

If they get any exlra help, they should be nt<:'lde keup all plants alive in the inter .i111. Because if the Fishery clo~~s tu1 ~n around, hopefully there is hope that we can move out of the No . 52 R3B

present crisis and Newfoundland can stay alive as Newfoundland is. But if we hide our heads in the sand, then it is going to be too late, in a few years down the road, when we have too small very viable companies stay alive, doing exceptionally well to the detriment of, not only rural, but we also have urban Newfoundland affected. The ball is in our court, and it depends on how we play it whether we will be the winners or losers. Right now the score is companies one, and the people of Newfoundland nothing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD : We did not make an agreement, but I was told to be nice and I am going to be nice for a change. I am not going to tell about all the wrong doings of the former Administration for seventeen years, but, I am going to point out that the han. Member for Ferryland .(Mr Power) stood to his Feet and he really said what I said over there IJJhen I !Alas in thE! Opposition about FPI, the sanctimonious attitude that FPI would take when becoming privatized. I ask to refer back to 1987, and would ask all hon.

Members to dig out Hansard, you should dig out Hansard 1987, when FPI was being privatized and look at: myself, l:he Member For Fogo at the time, Mr. Tul k, the ME!mber for St. Barbe, the Member for Burg eo - Bay d'Espoir, the thE!n critic for Fisherir:!S, Mr. Carter and myself, look at Han~ard and see exactly U9 Dr:!cernb(:~r 1.2, 1989 Vol XU what we said about the privatization of FPI, sometime down the road lJJhen the si tl~atton is taking place, and it :i.s taking place today, the impact and the callous way in which private companies would have towards the effect on the fishery of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Just look at it and you will see again how wrong you were in allowing and supporting, the privatization of c