Manitoba Hansard — 28 November 1988 (Sitting 86B, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-86b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

1048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 868 - 8 p.m., MONDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1988. ISSN 0542- 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANI TOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Steve BURRELL, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, Wi lliam CONNERY, Edward Hon. COWAN,Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Hero�d, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENrtS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon.

GAUDRY, Neil Gll;; LESHAMMER, Harold GR�Y, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HA�APIAK, Harry HAflPER, Elijah HELWE R, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAI\..OUREUX, Kevin, M. M Aii..OWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MII\!ENKO, Mark M l"fCHELSON, IBonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. OLESON, Charlotte Hon. ORCHARD, Donald Hon. PANKRATZ, Helmut PATTERSON, Allan PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROCH, Gilles ROSE, Bob STORIE, Jerry TAYLOR, Harold URUSKI, Bill WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy YEO, lva CONSTITUENC Y Osborne St.

Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Con cordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Aiel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Virden St. Boniface Minnedosa Ell ice Kirkfield Park The Pas • · Rupertsiand Gi ih li . . Logan Transcona lnkster EI 11J ,WOOd Assiniboia Morri� 'Branlion West Seven Oaks River Eas t i· Rossinere Gladstone Pembina La V erendrye · Radisson. Rhineland Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Turtle Mountain Springfield St. Vital Flin Flon Wolseley lnterlake St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 28, 1988. The House met at 8 p.m . CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-U RBAN AFFAIRS Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I call this meeting to order. We are on 2. Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg, (

b) Transit Operating Grant $ 16,485, 000 - lhe Memb er f or S t. Vital. Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): On page 1 1, it says promote the public transit -(Interjection )- page 17? I th ink I said 11. "To promote publi c tran sit as a viable transpo rtation alternative to the p rivate aut omob ile in view of the nvironmental , social and economic benefits associa ted t with incre ased tra nsit ridership." Right here , that I can reca ll, we have t hin gs li ke the Law Courts , the Woodswort h Building , the Norquay and the Legis lature .

This is the most crowded place for parking and the biggest nuisance in the whole of the Province of Manitoba . I wonder if the Minister has done anything in this viable transportation alternative to have some Incentive or some program that would encourage the employees of the Government of Manitoba to ride buses. An Honourable Member: I think they have probably been charging them for parking. Mr. Ron: Yes, other than starting to charge them. Have they any innovative ideas or are there any programs that have been promoted to deal with Government employees in this area? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): There are a couple to provide a good transit system ~ so they will. I guess the other one , tongue in cheek, J is the parking one.- (Interjection)- No, to charge for parking . I am just using that tongue in cheek . You have a DASH system throughout the city. I am not saying It is the end-all to all, but at least it is there and also It is to provide a good transit system .

That is what they have been trying to do, and to provide that transit system for everybody , whether they are around the Legislative Building or whether they work at the University of Manitoba or whether they work at the St. Vital Mall or whether they work at Polo Park , whether they work at-you could just keep on going on . Wherever they work, the whole idea of the city transit is to provide a transit system for everybody throughout the city. Mr. Rose: I am interested in all these places around the City of Winnipeg.

I am wondering, the place that is by far-the Minister knows it from when he was in City Council , he knows it from when he is in the Legislature-that from here , for three or four blocks in every direction is the worst congested parking in this entire province . Never mind about programs about DASH buses . Does the Minist er anticipate any specific programs aimed at relieving the congestion here by using, as he puts it, viable transportation alternatives in this area of Government emp loyees of the Manitob a Governm ent? Mr.

Ducharme: Just to mention it again, it is to provide a t ran sit system for e very body and provide a tra nsit system w hethe r it is busy here or whe ther it i s busy anywhe re. Our whole concept is to provide a good transit syste m along with the coo peration and along with the negotiations of the City of Winnip eg. Mr.

Rose: So what I am hearing from the Min ister then is tha t their method of an innovative transportatio n alternative fo r the people in this immedia te area , whether it bo Governmen t employees or elsewhere , is jack up a parking fee and that might discourage them from bringing their cars downtown. Mr. Ducharme: No, that is not what I said. I said tongue in cheek , and I said that. All I am saying is it is up to the City of Winnipeg and the province to provide good transit coverage for everybody. That is what their goal is and that is what that particular statement is.

I think we will work cooperatively with the city to come up with programs to work in and provide that transit system that is necessary throughout the City of Winnipeg . Mr. Chairman: 2.(b)-pass . 2.(

c) General Support Grant $6,900,000-the Member for St. Norbert. Mr. John Angus (St . Norbert): Mr. Chairperson, through you to the Minister . Is this where you would be funding extra programs for the City of Winnipeg Police, for instance, or the termites or river control? Mr. Ducharme: No, we are providing it out of the Capital, not out of this one. Mr. Angus: Could you just tell me then what the General Support Grant is for? Mr. Ducharme: It is an unconditional grant based on city salaries . It was originally related to the payroll tax. *

(2005) Mr. Chairman: 2.(c)-pass . (

d) Special Education Transfer Grant, $2, 100,000- the Member for St. Norbert . Mr. Angus: It is indicated as a one-time grant and yet it is a forever collection cost. Mr. Ducharme: This is a one-time $2, 100,000 from Urban Affairs . Whatever results with the negotiations 3528

Monday, November 28, 1988 with the City of Winnipeg and the Government to offse t that , that will come up as we negotiate along the way with them . Probably the Minister of Fina nce (Mr. Manness) is quite invo lved in there. We felt that this was unconditional to offset that. That is our share. There was more than that involved . Mr. Angus: Just to see if I have got it straight then, there Is an expense that accrues to the city for the collection.

The loss of Interest, I guess , is the expense that is going to be taken away from the city because they will no longer have the collected taxes to be able to deposit, which they used to collect the money to offset the expenditure of doing a collection . Now the $2 million is a one-time shot to offset that expense because you are taking that away from them . Is that accurate? Mr. Ducharme: Yes. The total was 6 million, I think , is what the city gave. Our portion of that that came from Urban Affairs was $2, 100,000 and that is to offset the interest revenue lost to the City of Winnipeg . Mr.

Angus: Revenue of the city is going to be short $4 million by their figures in the collection and it is n9t being offset by any other Government department. Is that accurate? Mr. Ducharme: It was also offset by some tax-sharing agreements . They did not lose another $4 million . They actually reimbursed a total of almost $6 million. Mr. Angus: You are referring to the transfer grants that would have gone to them or should have gone to them anyway from the federal Government? Mr. Ducharme: We were saying that we did not cap their earnings .

That was a negotiation and it was agreed to by the City of Winnipeg in negotiations . Before we came to these amounts, we sat down with the City of Winnipeg, had the meetings wilh the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), myself, the Mayor, the chairman of Finance, City of Winnipeg, and they agreed to this settlement for this particular year. Mr. Angus: Okay.

Just so I have got it clear in my head, notwithstanding what the previous Government did and notwithstanding the politics of whether we agreed with what the former Government did or not , the transfer of money that came from Ottawa, that should have gone right through to the City of Winnipeg , you have negotiated with the Mayor and the Executive Policy Committee that they will accept those transfer payments and $2 million additional to offset the expenditure, the revenue that they are going to lose through the process of collecting the school board taxes. Is that accurate? Mr. Ducharme: Not the collection .

The loss of the interest revenue . Mr. Angus: Okay. Could you just explain to me then? It says it is a one-time grant and this is the only time you are going to be doing it. Do you want to advise me on that? Mr. Ducharme: As far as we are concerned at Urban Affairs, it is a transitional one-time grant that they can at least adjust. That is the settleme nt we cam e to with the city on the loss of interes t revenu e. We say this is our portion of that transitional grant. Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr.

Chairperso n, just so I understand, I think what was happen ing here is that the city and the municipalities were hold ing ont o money that they were collecting on behalf of the school divisions , and by holding it in their pot, they were able to make interest on it, but we all recognize that the school divisions were borrowing at the other end because they were waiting for the money that was accruing to the m and being collected by the city. I think this benefits everybody . The school divisi on gets their money faster .

The municipalities and the city get some offset and I would assume some time to prepare in the long run to absorb that into their budg et. to have some offset and to absorb it because that money really is not the irs in the first place . I just wanted to make one final point to my colleagu es • and that is that this grant was made uncond ition ally to offset, just so that you do not think that there were never unconditional grants. Mr. Ducharme: This was one way of getting the moni es whether you want to say how it is or not.

Ail I can say is that this particular Government did negotiate and not send a letter saying that we will now cease doing what we did in the past. We know that the auditor s had for quite a number of years suggested that the money be passed on at a quicker pace. What we did is we sat down with the City of Winnipeg and we negotiated and felt that for this year anyway that they not just go to them and say we are cutting you off. etc. We did sit with them . Whether you want to call it an unconditional grant or not, it was one way of puttin g it and showing up in the operating of Urban Affairs. *

(2010) Mr. Chairman: 2.(d)-pass . Resolution No. 138: Resolved that there be grant ed • to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $44,81 1,000 for Urb an Affairs, Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989 - pass . 3. Urban Policy Coordination : Provides urban policy formu lation , planning advic e and inter-go vern mental liaison with respect to Urban Affairs. Provid es for the province 's share of expenditu res relat ed to impro ving the core area of the City of Winnipeg and pro vid es for the effective participation of core area resi dents in employmen t and developmen t opportunitie s. (

a) Salaries $362 ,700-the Member for Logan. Ms. Hemphill: Mr. Chairperson , I have a couple of areas I would like to discuss under this secti on. One is the legislation and the amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act . I know that we went thr_ough this in an earlier

section and the Minister seemed to be saying 3529

Monday, November 28, 1988 that it was his decision , that he needed more time to study and that he was not ready to go with major amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act because he needed the additional time and he wanted to talk to people . I guess one of the questions that I would have is why is he moving on the amendments that he is moving on? Why did he choose .those out of all of the very significant recommendations and needs that there are? Why has he not moved a little bit faster and presented It as a package?

I would have thought that one of the advantages of being on City Council is that you would have really had a lot of experience and knowledge in being able to come in as a Minister, and get a handle very quickly with all the studies and all the information that was already there on what initiatives you wanted to take in this very important area .

I think there is a lot of disappointment with the Cherniack study and White Papers and recommendations that are around , that there is going to c ontinue to be the deficiencies and the problems • that could be helped a great deal (1) corrected and (2) ' helped with the City of Winnipeg . So why did you choose the ones you chose and why are you not moving a little faster in this important area? Mr. Ducharme: Even if I do know all the answers, still think that I should consult with the city.

Also the people who worked on the Cherniack Committee have not only criticized our particular administration but they did criticize the previous administration for not acting soon enough . I remember when they were taking some shots at the previous administration in the same regard . The ones that were proposed were actually - except for one , and that was the one of the Auditor , and the reason why we moved on that one was quite a stir at City Hall in regard to a couple things that went on.

I am not going to mention any names , but one particular · group of one sentence for an individual that was probably involved with financial , the other ones were asked for, and they were asked for by the prev ious administra tion in the last year, year and a half , the other ·housekeeping amendments . One of them was asked, l or they were asked , for you , and the legislat ion was , already prepared for those, or almost completely prepared, so we could bring those on with the number of councillors .

The business assessment was brought in simply because the City of Winnipeg wants to act in their assessment for January of '89. They want to get going on their business assessment so they could wrap up all the differences in those assessments and also their tourism tax is also involved in that one. They were quite insistent that if we could bring any legislat ion in, in this particular Session , that would be one that they would really like to see brought in. That Is why those ones were brought in at the time .

The councillors , as I explained earlier-was that because it would be a long time before the Boundar ies meet again, and there was some consensus out there that at least they would know of any proposed legislat ion that would bring in the 23, and the 29, and the maps have been drawn that way that they meet. Once they come forward with thei r recommendations, they will come forward to the Minister and then they will go back out again into the husting so they can have those meetings again , and hope they take forward in January , and that they know which way they are going for the election of the fall of '89 .

We tried to keep them down to the min imum as we could and that is why we brought those in. *

(2015) Ma. Hemphill: Mr. Chairperson , I realize that in most questions related to this , the Minister will probably say that he is going to talk to people and has not made up his mind finally, but I am wondering if he can give us-tip his hand a little to us-some indicat ion of whether he is concerned about beefing up the role of the community committees , both in terms of their role in what they do and the resources that they have to do it, which I think is being seen as a problem . Mr. Ducharme : Without tipping my hand, I am a firm believer in the community committee system .

I think it has been great and that is why the numbers of 23 are the minimum amount that I think politically you could probably operate under. With the community committee system, it is the 23 number and if it is the wish of the Legislature, that is what they wish , they will be up to 29. I think in the Cherniack Report they did mention 24, but the indicat ion with the numbers at 23 is that you can operate and still hold on to that history of community committees and the boundaries that we have been used to. That is probably one of the reasons , and that is one of the reasons why 23 was used .

I can only go on record that I have always supported the community committee system . Ma. Hemphill: These are sort of a number of short snappers that I want to cover in this area . There was some mention of the additional zone earlier . Is there any thought to the elimination of the additional zone? Mr. Ducharme: I would hate to mention any elimination of the additional zone , because I have promised the additional zone people, and that was the meeting last July, that we would consult with them very thoroughly before any decisions were made .

They gave that impression that they said they were not heard properly before and they wanted to be consulted on any changes . So in fairness to them and in fairness to the Municipal Affairs Minister, who also was meeting with them , I would not want to mention was going to be done with the additional zones. All we know is that any indication we got from City Hall and any indication that I got from my own experiences is that the additional zone , the way it is now , is not working to what it was intended for. Ma.

Hemphill: I wanted to once again commend the Minister for the decision in terms of going beyond the urban limit line for the major development and I guess standing up against continued loss of agricultural land , standing up for the reports that say we have all of the land inside the urban limit line that we need to develop our city to the 21st Century , I think, and standing up for the people of Manitoba who would be paying the 3530

Monday, November 28, 1988 additional taxes , at least for schools and other Mr. Ducharme: The one you are referring to, I have Infrastructure like that . sent it back asking for further informat ion. One of them was a possibility of an action plan to be included and In light of the fact that that decision showed what to let us know what-even if it was a draft, so at least I think most people in Winnipeg believed to be a bad we knew what they were proposing for that area . I have decision but very poor process in terms of decision . not-received that.

That was about- making admitted to by City Council themselves ;'···· meetings with the developer after the presentation had been made, coercion by some members of City Council to other members to make the decision to support it, does the Minister believe that, for instance, he is introducing conflict-of -Interest leg islation for the province, which I assume is beefing an already present Conflict-of-Interest Act, does he believe the same should be present for the City Council and is he going to support my Bill for electoral expenses reform when It comes up in the House? •

(2020) Mr. Ducharme: I will talk on your Bill, whether I think that conflict of interest should be coming in at this time, especially since I have ordered - I know there are two provinces that have conflict of interest set aside. Myself, I have ordered those and I have not received them yet. I have ordered their legislation on that and I look forward to receiving those so I can do a comparison . I honestly hope that that would be one of the items that would be brought forward in the overall amendments that we do bring forward.

You mentioned also the decision that I made , the Member has to appreciate that the draft was not approved by City Hall until April of '86 and I left in March of '86. There were changes while the draft was going on. As you can probably appreciate, the first draft was done-Plan Review. I went into my closet at home and dug it out and it was Plan Review 1981.

I want to just mention that in that particular little-the first brochure that they brought ou, on page 8, two things that they suggested when you talk about the "sprawl." It is current policies restricting development west of the Perimeter Highway and North Saskatchewan Avenue should be maintained . In other words, that Is one thing that they mentioned in their whole urban sprawl. They mentioned the 12,000 acres will be designated for suburban sprawl. Even at that time, these were two real important parts of that plan that came forward .

So it was not too difficult to probably make that particular decision because they stayed, even at that time , in very initial stages that when we started and all of us sat down going through this process, it started even a couple of years before that. That is one thing we always talked about at City Hall. That these two areas would probably be the last and I felt that, if we were going to have an amend ment to Plan Winnipeg, this was not an amendment. I a m not knocking the city councillors . I felt that this was now a major change in that particular Plan Winnipeg, not just an amendment. Ms.

Hemphill: I wonder if the Minister can give us an update on the status of the reclassification of that

section of south St. Boniface . I think he had asked for additional information . Ms. Hemphill: You have to approve the reclassification? Do you approve the- Mr. Ducharme: Yes. Ms. Hemphill: You are waiting for the information? Mr. Ducharme: Yes. I have a little conflict in that particular one because I sat on the community committee. It is very unique. I sat on community committee when ii went to a Community Committee where we approved at community committee that particular

section because we felt it was tying in. with the concept of what was going on in South St. Vital. Now I am in a different role where I have to ask for additional information. I have asked for that additional information now that it has gone through the hearings . When I get that information , well then of course I will make a decision. Ms. Hemphill: I would just like to ask a few questions on the Core Area Initiative. One of the big problem s of the new Core Area Initiative was the movement of the cash flow, getting approval of project .

We had community organizations and programs out there absolutely starvirig and literally, in some cases, going down the tube because the money was not flowing . Has that, whatever was causing the problem , been dealt with? Is money flowing now for all those projects? Mr. Ducharme: We did have a problem in the spring , but now it is all flowing. I have not had any complaint s since then . •

(2025) Ms. Hemphill: There is one area, the business program that gives money to businesses, I think, that has boundaries that include some of Main Street but not all of Main Street. It is my understanding that there is some discretion allowed in relation to those boundaries . When a project comes up, and I can give you a good example of Best Care Cleaners on Main Street which ended up being two doors away from another pro ject that was approved , a business that has been there for 20 yea rs.

Long before anybody was trying to save Main Street , they were providing service to the peop le of the North End and indeed all over the city, have renova ted the upper part of their building for residential living and have met all of the fir e and safety b y-laws of t he city and t herefore, I believe, have been a very long -tim e good citizen of the city and particula rly o f Main Street, a place where a lot of businesses would not care to s truggle to make their livelihood .

I thought it was very disappointing that when we asked for flexibility for approval of a grant to give some supp ort that it was denied on the basis that they were 3531 • •

Monday, November 28, 1988 just outside of the boundaries . When there is discretion and it is not used, then it is not very useful. I am wondering if his staff can advise what happened in this case. I want to make two points . If discretion is not ever applied, then you might as well not have it there, or the boundaries should be altered so that, I think, more of the Main Street, which is really struggling to revitalize itself and needs a bit of help from Government , should be included. Mr.

Ducharme: Under the son of Core or the second Core Program , the three levels of Government that did set the boundaries, at the time they set them, said there was no discretion at all. To change it now, the P.A. stipulates quite clearly that there is no discretion whatsoever in those boundaries . You are referring to the neighbourhood of Main Street. Under that program, there is no discretion at all. It is clearly indicated and I think there were reasons for that . I think John remembers under the first one some of the problems • we had when we did move around in some of the boundaries .- (Interjection}- Yes. Ma.

Hemphill: Is any consideration being given to the daughter of Core? Mr. Ducharme: All I know is the monies are just flowing now and you are in the middle of it. I would not want to suggest whether we are going to any other Core Programs or what have you. Our Government was one of the originators of the first Core Program under Sterling Lyon with Gerry Mercier when he was Urban Affairs Minister, and it was carried on by your Government and then renewed under the previous Government along with the Conservatives , so that is where we are at now.

What I will do though , if you want, I will look at this oxample that you have brought forward and I will get back to the Member in regard to that so, if there is any way that we can show some light, I will get back to the Member . Ma. Hemphill: I wonder if the Minister could give us an update on the status of the East Yards. •

(2030) Mr. Ducharme: Okay, the East Yards now , since we took office in May, the market has been approved . Most of any monies that were coming to the East Yards were approved by the previous Government except for the market . The market had to have the approval of this particular Government . They would like to have had it approved earlier, but we did approve it after we consulted with The Forks people . The site clearing has been completed by the CN Railway to remove and relocate the former East Yard rail fac ilities .

The Forks National Historic Park , as you are probably aware , including the riverbank promenade , has been completed by Environment Canada Parks on the nine-acre site adjacent to FRC's property and there have been other works carried out in regard to that . We have now hired a good general manager from the city. Now we have a general manager who will probably take a very, very active part . The only thing I can say about the yards is that now we have the land and it is probably one of the most important pieces of property in the City of Winnipeg .

Now that we have accumulated the land, I have made it quite known before that let us not just be in a hurry to fill it up. Let us take our time in filling up that particular large piece of land and do a real good job on it. As you can probably appreciate, the major factor was getting that land. That is the key, not just to go there to build buildings and put facilities. Now that you have the land , I think the very important key is now to do something important with it. Other than that , that is the update on The Forks . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for St. Vital. Mr.

Rose: I just have one question on the core area and I would lii<e to know what the Minister's view of it is. Before I go; into public life, I heard about this core area and I thought it was a really good objective and then, when I got on City Council, I toured some of the projects in the North End of Winnipeg . I am somewhat disturbed now to see all the core area money that is not being spent in the core, and I think some of it outside the core is money well spent but I have other problems in some of the areas.

I would say that if core area funding remains about where it is and the actual core is getting a little bit starved and I still consider and I am sure most people in the city still consider that it is most needed in the true core of Winnipeg . Has the Minister any philosophy that he would use his influence, as a one-third partner now that they are the Government, to redirect or direct the money back to where it was intended , and that is the most needy part where there are the most social problems , and that is in the core of Winnipeg . Mr.

Ducharme: Could the Member mention to me what areas is he talking about outside the core? I was not aware that we were doing that. Mr. Rose: I would rather be positive than opposed but I do not have any particular problems about continuing to buy places outside of the core, as I would consider it anyway, like the Tourist Hotel. I would think that would be more a priority north of the subway in the north . end of Winnipeg . Those are the sort of things I am thinking about. Mr. Ducharme: There has been no money spent outside the core . The hotel you are talking about, that St. Boniface

section , is now in the second core agreement and it was in the first one . Mr. Angus: Mr. Chairperson, let me just pick up a little bit on what my colleague from St. Vital is suggesting. I guess , Mr. Minister , we have opportunities . We can either continue with the flow and go along with the way 3532

Monday, November 28, 1988 things were or we can stick our oar in the wate r and say it is time to look at amend ing this agreemen t to a certain extent . Now when you see North Main deteriorating as quickly as it is and as badly as it is, and yet you see areas like Osborne Village and St. Boniface getting core area money, you have to ask yourself is there not an opportunity to readdress the investment of this money for the betterment of the core area , the whole of the core in the centre of the city ?

I suspect , and I do not want to put words in the Member's mouth , but it is a legitimate concern , a legitimate point. I think , Mr. Minister, you have got an opportunity to drive your stake into the ground and say you should be bringing some new initiatives to the board and asking them to re-evaluate the investment of their money. Mr. Ducharme: I would say that if you were redoing a new core program that probably then you could look at the boundaries . However, you have to remembe r that most of them were into the third year of the second program.

By the time you have probably negotiated , you are going to have completed the program. The cash flows are going through and I am suggesting that North Main and that will be looked at at that time . The three Governments are looking at the

section you are referr ing to and they always have . It was the will of the Governments when they set up this core program, and that was the city, the province and the feds, when they looked it up and when they did do the renewal , they felt that these were the boundaries that they felt were necessary . I think that to be honest with you, and I am being very, very upfront, is that you can always hope that you can maybe go into changing boundaries, but I would suggest at this time that there would not be too much success in that. Mr. Angus: Perhaps a new question then , through you, Mr.

Chairperson , to the Minister, is have you even tried? Mr. Ducharme: No. I think that you could try through advising them of the projects as they come forward , which ones are priority in that particula r area . That would be one way of doing it. Also to add , to the Member , I think when I came in most of the monies were already spen t and subject for. That is what I am trying to say. There is very little left . Let us put it that way.

Most of it will be done now and to open it up, changing the boun daries and going back and redistributing those priorities would be- what I am saying is most of the mon ies have been spent already . Ms. Hemphill: Just to pick up on tha t a b it, Mr. Chairperson, I just wanted to let the Minist er know t hat when we came into Government the firs t agreement had all been negotiated and was all dotted . The "t' s" were crossed and the " i's" were dott ed, and part of the plan was under - the train ing and emplo yment agency was to build a college and it called for spending about $7 million on a facility .

We took a very stron g position and said we are not going to build the colleg e. There is lots of space around here. We are not going to spend three years not training people while we build a building . We said an absolute " no" when - I want to let the Minister know that it was when it is in your jurisdiction , as it was in Educat ion, when I was t he Minister , you have quite a bit of clou t. You are the deliver ing author ity and you , I think , hav e more opportunities when you are the deliver ing auth ority to say we deliver this service, this program , we know a lot abou t i t.

We do not think this is the way to do it. So I want to take except ion to his point that onc e it is nego tiated you cannot go back . As the deliver ing authority in the jurisdictional area, I think that you could make some points to the point that there is very little money there, because I want to pick up on the North Main . We have really dressed up north of Portage and we have got luxury condos that we are building, and we are paving the riverbank from The Forks down to the Legislature .

But one of the problems is that we still have people sniffing glue and drinking Lysol all along the way, and we are not dealing with some of thos e ' issues. North Main is trying to save itself, the community , the North Main Revitalization Development Centre , with very little money and very little help or suppo rt from other. people . I think it is one of the cases where the initiative is coming from the community . It is coming from the businesses them selves. They are ask ing for only a little bit of help, and I th ink we should do what we can .

A l ittle bit of mon ey to you probably is a lot of money to them . I would just say try, if you try then you say, I did it; but if you do not try, you never know. Certainly , i f there is any poss ibility of another agreement being negotiated down the road , I think there should be a cut off of places . Inasmuch as I like going to Osborne Village and I enjoy the ambience as much as anyplace else, they should be cut right off of add itional money and money should be ploughed into the area s that really need it, like Main Street.

I would add other areas lik e Ellice and Sargent , Selkirk Avenue , places that have a lot of potential to have comme rcial areas with a lot of colour and character that will add to our city but have been neglected . Mr. Ducharme: First of all , all th e sections yo u I mentioned are included in t he cor e. I t hi nk t he Neighbourhood Main Streets and Small Busines s had 5 m illion in the allocation . To make it clear to the Member , that was the frustrat ing part when I cam e into office . I think the only thing that was not commi tted and alloca ted was the publ ic market in The For ks.

Everyth ing else was allo cated, 95 percent of everything was already done by the previous Governm en t. If the Mem ber is saying that we go back now - I do not k now how I cou ld do it and go back to her previou s comm itment s by her Govern ment .The peopl e that they had appo inted to the Advisory Committee and the peopl e who th ey appointed to g o over all the projects . To rehash them I say that because of the time eleme nt that we have now got , t hat eve rythi ng has been comm itted , that reall y all we a re n ow doing is cash flowi ng it. We have got hard ly any say in that particular prog ram .

All we a re doing is handing the mone y over. Because of the advice, the way it is set up, the Adv isory 3533

Monday, November 28, 1988 Committee meets and there are probably programs in there that have been agreed to that maybe you question , but that is the way the Core Program was set up. All the monies were allocated before we got in office . •

(2040) Mr. Chairman: 3.(

a) Salaries - pass . 3.(

b) Other Expenditures, $103,300-the Member for St. Norbert. Mr. Angus: With the permission of the other members at the table, perhaps we can pass everything right down to the Minister's Salary and then have a general discussion on that and question~. Mr. Chairman: We have to pass them line by line . Mr. Angus: Pass them then . Call them out and pass them and tick them off. Let us go. Mr. Chairman: 3.(

b) Other Expenditures-pass; 3.(

c) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Agreement :

(1) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions-pass ;

(2) Payments to Other Provincial Departments-pass; 3.(

d) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Renewed Agreement :

(1) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions $666,200-pass ;

(2) Payments to Other Provincial Departments $2 ,299 , 700-pass ;

(3) Departmental Expenditures $776,000-pass ; 3.(

e) Canada-Manitoba ARC Agreement : ( 1) ARC Secretariat - Other Expenditures $13,800-pass . Item 3.(

f) Riverbank Development : ( 1) Salaries $48,900.00. Mr. Ducharme: I believe that 3.(

e) is not finished . Mr. Angus: Is the Riverbank Redevelopment something brand new or different? Mr. Ducharme: It is a provincial initiative only. That is the Riel Park . Mr. Angus: Riel Park? Where is that located, Mr. Minister? Mr. Ducharme: We hope eventually right behind the Legislative Building . Mr. Angus: I see. Mr. Ducharme: We call it the Louis Riel or behind the Legislative Building. Mr. Angus: That is correct. That is what they addressed it as. They called it the Louis Riel. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Are you disappointed, John? Mr.

Angus: I thought it was in the Riel constituency , Mr. Finance Minister . Mr. Ducharme : The real Riel Park is, and there is some in the Omand's Creek, too . Omand 's Creek is in there also. Mr. Chairman: 3.(fX1) Salaries $48,900 - pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $61,600-pass; 3.(

g) North Portage . Redevelopment $175 ,500 - pass. Resolution No. 139: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,507 ,700 for Urban Affairs , Urban Policy Coordination, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989 - pass . 4. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets - Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Agreement:

(1) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions;

(2) Payments to Other Provincial Departments;

(3) Departmental Expenditures $3,200,000-pass; 4.(

b) Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets - Agreement for Recreation and Conservation for the Red River Corridor $16,000-pass; 4.(

c) Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg $12 , 720,000-pass . Item 4.(

d) Riverbank Development $70,000-the Member for St. Norbert . Mr. Angus: May I ask, Mr. Chairperson, through you to the Minister, is this in addition to the other $110,000, as capital to go with this $110,000? Mr. Ducharme: That is additional, and I will get it for you and find out which one it is for. Mr. Rose: Could we just finish with the St. Norbert one and I will get- Mr. Ducharme: One is for the Omand's Creek, $50,000 , and $20,000 is for a study . There was one riverbank that we own, the City of Winnipeg , between Main and Gomez on the Red River, Pritchard Dock.

We own the property there and we are doing a study ·on how it can be best used. Mr. ·Rose: I notice that even though it is a very small amount of money on Riverbank Development, not only in the City of Winnipeg but all of Manitoba, and that this , some if not all, most of it is all in downtown Winnipeg .

Does the Minister, because of the deterioration of this great resource of the City of Winnipeg and indeed of the province, anticipate as was promised by the previous administration-maybe not the same amounts of money-any appreciable increase in the amount of funding to bring our riverbanks up and stop the erosion and crumbling that is taking effect from one end of the city to the other almost? Mr. Ducharme: As you can probably appreciate, the . money in repairing riverbanks is a very, very costly item just to do a study on one little piece of property they own , $20,000 .00.

I know in The Forks there are some monies for riverbank redevelopment enhancement . I do not know what it is-$5 million-so we are hoping that we will be able to tap into that , but that is only in the City of Winnipeg , right downtown. Mr. Rose: Specifically, and I certainly realize, having been to many, many meetings and seminars, etc ., on the Red River, but I guess we will all agree that it has been studied to death. I think any questions that need 3534

Monday, November 28, 1988 to be asked about the erosion on the river in the City of Winnipeg have all been answered . They certainly have been to my satisfaction, and now specifically to a constituency that has lots of riverbank, and that is St. Vital, my constituency, does the Minister anticipate somewhere in his term of doing something to correct and stabilize the riverbanks in Winnipeg? Mr. Ducharme: For one who Is also in a constituency surrounded by rivers, the Seine on one side and the Red, it goes quite a length, and probably one who also Is in an area where the Member for St.

Vital overlooks part of the riverbank, that is In my constituency that he lives and overlooks, this particular Government has not looked Into, If you are looking at helping the private people, no, definitely not. We have not looked into it at all and that Is a whole new ball game altogether to be looking at helping the private people because it is just such a monster. I guess that is probably why people have studied it to death .

We did not spend the $20,000 on this piece of property to study it to death because this is our property and legally we could, if we do not do something with it, after our study, probably be held liable close by, and that is probably why this one will lead to more than a study, because this is property that we own that is crumbling. *

(2050) Mr. Chairman: 4.(

d) Riverbank Development-pass; (

e) Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets - Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Renewed Agreement :

(1) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions $3,899,900-pass;

(2) Payments to Other Provincial Departments $1, 192,000-pass;

(3) Departmental Expenditures $1,875, 100-pass; (

f) North Portage Redevelopment $775 ,500-pass . Resolution No. 140: Resolved that tt>ere be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $23,748,500 for Urban Affairs, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989-pass . We will return then to item No. 1., Administration and Finance, and we will ask the staff to leave the table . On behalf of all Honourable Members, we thank them for their contribution. Item 1.(

a) Minister's Salary $10 ,300-the Member for St. Norbert . Mr. Angus: Mr. Chairperson, I did not get an opportunity to ask the Minister his philosophy or his position when we were talking about some of the City of Winnipeg amendments, and I am not intending to get deeply involved in them but I would like to ask a couple of things . Headingley is an example , the Headingley study, where they were proposing they would be seceding from the city, what is the status of that? Mr.

Ducharme: We met with the official delegation today and we indicated to them that we would probably-Headingley has written to myself as Minister just recently, indicating they want to go to referendum. We will probably go that route , but before we would do that we would make sure that with the city, when we do go with a referendum, it is very, very clear to the people anyway, what they are voting on.

It is not just the idea they are voting to go on their own , to indicate to them that there are sections that will have to be negotiated with the city and what have you, the boundaries that they would be pulling away for, if the city was to get the areas that they are considering . I think by sitting down with the city, before we go to the referendum, clearly indicating to the people what they are voting on , I do not know whether the city would object to them withdrawing . There seems to be two points of view at the official delegation this morning and that is what we were left with.

We clearly indicated to them that we had waited for them to finish the negotiations and we felt that process should go through, that process that was started by the prev ious Government and the Urban Affairs Minister, and we felt that by allowing them. through the fall, they have had ample time to get any of their differences they have. They have clearl y indicated to us there is nothing more they could have I. put on the table.

Mr: Angus: I think that it is important that if Headingley becomes part of the additional zone, it is fairly obvious that the people in the additional zone have more of an opportunity and perhaps it is easier for them to develop properties . I speak, Mr. Chairperson, through you to the Minister , of properties in La Salle and Oakbank which are only a few miles from the city limit line and from the Perimiter Highway where there are several hundreds of acres of property being developed.

While I respect the decision that he has made in terms of Headingley and the proximity and public awareness that was heightened because of the proposed development, it seems to me that to have one department, Urban Affairs, trying to control urban sprawl and another one, letting it expand willy-nilly, is counterproductive. I would urge the Minister to talk to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings) and propose a freeze on construction and building in the additional zone until such time as the Governme nts that are affected can really come to grips with the t problem.

It does not solve the problem by simply saying , it is not in my depar tment . It does not solve the problem by simply saying to the people in Headingley , no, you cannot build there; or to the City ot" Winnipeg , you cannot build there. If they are feeling that by seceding they will be able to be masters of their own fate and develop a larger tax base and things o f that nature , you are only compounding the problem . I am not sure if the Minister wants to comment on that. I have two or three other items I would like to bring to his attent ion befor e I continue . Mr.

Ducharme: This was brought up by our selves along with the City of Winnipeg. It was also brought up by the Municipal Affai rs Minister suggesting tha t all you are doing is going from one department to the other if they do pull away. You have to remember that they have other things to consider that are quite unique from East and West 3535

Monday, November 28, 1988 St. Paul and that is the water problem out there , which as you could probably appreciate, I think, in part of your area where you are, they are hauling their water . That is another thing they have to consider. These things are brought into consideration . I thank the Member for his suggestion about the additional zone. I know a plan .would have to be provided _but again, that plan could be changed around. We will make sure when we are in our discussions that the people of Headingley know where they are coming from and that we remembered.

It did come up this morning in regard to, hey, they will just have an easier time . We know where the problems have been . I agree with you . The problems have been in the additional zone. We have turned around to the city and said you cannot develop here , you cannot develop here, and you cannot develop here. Yet, right along that green buffer that was supposed to be there all of those years just did not happen , it did not stay as green buffer zone . Your comments are very well received and they were brought up this morning. Mr. Angus: Mr.

Chairperson, just through you, one of the issues that was subject of questions and discussion and serious concern to all Members of the Legislature was the policing circumstances at the City of Winnipeg . The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) of the province agreed to personally look into the policing situation . Can he enlighten us? Has he shown any leadership in terms of what is happening with the police in the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Ducharme: As you appreciate, when they were discussing that, the Minister did bring it up. He came to the official delegation and he brought it up to Mr.

Lunney or to the official delegation. We were given an update- Mr. Angus: The Premier, you mean? Mr. Ducharme: The Premier did . This was discussed at that meeting . As you can probably appreciate , they were involved in their arbitration at the time. They were Involved in arbitration at the time with the City Police so we felt it would not be a good opportunity at the time to start negotiating , while the negotiations were going on between the city. The mayor was away today. It seems to be a pet of the mayor 's. The mayor was not there at today 's meeting .

I can honestly say it was not discussed at this meeting. It was discussed at the previous official delegation meeting but not this one . Mr. Angus : I understand that the Premier was absent from both meetings . Mr. Ducharme: The Premier did send a message on to the other one via the Minister . Mr. Angus: The Minister was there? •

(2100) Mr. Duch arme: First of all, I said the Minister and the Prem ier did. It was very, very strong that we put it on the age nda. It was on the agenda and we did discuss . The Premier was not there today simply because, as you can probably appreciate, he booked a flight to Ottawa about a month and a half ago, along with tickets to the Grey Cup, and not just in the last couple of days . He booked it about a month and a half ago along with his flight . His flight was all arranged. That was his priority at this time . I cannot question him for that . Mr.

Angus: The role of the Minister of Urban Affairs is a large role and one that I think provides the Minister with an opportunity to really show some leadership . I am disappointed that this Minister, for whatever reason, is ad hocking his way through The City of Winnipeg Act and is not addressing some of the very serious concerns he and I have shared for a number of years in a more aggressive fashion. He has indicated that he is going to be bringing forward better legislation, more legislation and looking more seriously at specific programs .

I would encourage him to do that and to address some of the problems such as North Main, which is a very, very serious problem and a very real problem, policing in the City of Winnipeg, the additional zone , the quality of the rivers , the infrastruc ~ure problems , and while I agree that it costs an awful lot of money If you attempt to do all of these things, I think, Mr. Minister, it costs us an awful lot more if we do not address them, and I would encourage you to take some positive action in relation to the City of Winnipeg . Mr.

Ducharme: I am a little disappointed that the Member has suggested that I have . not taken a leadership role . We did come into office in May and we did come into the Session in July. I think I have had a very, very good discussion with not only an official delegation but many of the councillors at the City of Winnipeg , as well as with administration .

I will assure the Member that I can only reinforce that the reason why I did not come forward-and I do not think I am ad hocking any of The City of Winnipeg Act-I believe that the amendments that were brought in were amendments that would have been brought in whether you took into consideration the Cherniack Report and everything else . I am suggesting to the Member that after careful consideration-I have been accused by different people of not consulting with the City of Winnipeg on the numbers - I want to assure the Member that he is aware of the White Paper that came down .

I am glad he has talked about the problems of the additional zone, about the people surrounding the additional zone who expressed to me and the Municipal Affairs Minister last July when we met them that they wanted to consult, and we felt , when we were going to the Session, that we would have the opportunity to sit down in the early fall with these people and get ready to bring our legislation in. I am looking forward to more of a leadership role for the next turn around when our budget for the City of Winnipeg is already determined .

As the Member appreciates, that is determined in March of every year and I look forward to sitting down with him and maybe coming forward with some new ideas . I am sure that the Member knows that I- 3536

Monday, November 28, 1988 Mr. Angus: I would be pleased to work with you. Mr. Ducharme: I am glad he will, and I will call on the Member when I have, and I am not afraid to call on the Member for ideas because I want to use his expertise also. We mentioned over there they - never mind, I will not get Involved- Mr. Chairman: Order, please. Ma. Hemphill: Just a very short statement, Mr. Chairperson .

I think I actually want to reiterate some of the points that my colleague made about areas that we also would like to see initiatives taken in, and that Is the environment, I think, protection of the riverbanks , looking at getting some more help to places like Main Street revitalization, and I guess a big one is the Inner City.

We did not really have a chance to find out what the attitude and the priority and the philosophy of the Minister Is and he might want to just add a few comments on that but, as we all know , a few short years ago we had a dying Inner City and with a lot of collective effort by all levels of Government and the community we are turning that around, but we really have to keep up that momentum . We still have the oldest houses, some of the oldest housing stock in the country. Sixty-five percent of our housing is rental housing and we know we have to turn that around from rental to ownership .

We know that we have a serious problem with slum landlords and with the quality of housing that many of our families have to live In. I am wondering if the Minister sees that as a priority for his Government and what initiatives his Government is taking and what they will take to continue the momentum that has been generated in the past years . Mr. Ducharme: I think I expressed in my original remarks or my opening remarks about the core area, that I sat with the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) when we were on City Council.

I am not saying everything we did and everything we looked at was turned the way we thought It would turn out , but we have learned by those mistakes. One fortunate position, I have seen it start from what we called the dream that it started with. It had a couple of sleepless nights . However, the core area, in perspective , has worked out very, very well . There are always going be questions . People questioned North of Portage, but heck, what would we have there if North of Portage had not developed? People blame that the south of Portage is dying . Well, a lot of the south of Portage was dying anyway.

Now we have to look at ways that we do not just put shopping on the south side. We have to look at things that will blend in with the north side of Portage . So I think Winnipeg has come a long ways in the last seven or eight years in regard to core and North of Portage and I am in agreement with you, if you lose downtown Winnipeg, then we have got a problem . Also, the other perspective is you have to realize that when you are doing suburban-everybody calls it suburban sprawl-you have got to remember too that when you build a housing development there is only one place to build a housing development.

There is not the land available in the City of Winnipeg-I am talking about in the core area - to do the housing development. The idea is not to ignore it, the City of Winnipeg core area and revitalization, as you have spoken, but let us be rational, you are not going to develop an area in the City of Winnipeg with a housing development th at you see in some of the suburban areas because the land is there. So I am saying that I agree that we must keep up the core area improvements that we have been doing , and I have been a supporter of that. Ma. Hemphill: Mr. Chairperson, just one last point.

I wish that when the Minister has an opportunity to talk to his colleagues in the City of Winnipeg that he would pass on to them, since they were so kindly passing out these lovely " Wlnnerpegger" pins, that if they cannot count any better than that-did you pass them out through you? Mr. D.ucharme: Maybe I should answer- Ma. Hemphill: I was going to say if they canno t count any better than that , we should make all their grant s conditional. Mr. Ducharme: I think we should answer that.

I think in fairness to the other people in the City of Winnipeg is that-I know our caucus phoned over, and I know the Liberal caucus phoned over and we got 24 and I do not know how many they got. So those caucuses phoned over and maybe you could have used your connection with the Mayor that you have developed over the long period of time. I gave mine to Mr. Plohman. An Honourable Member: He appreciated it. Mr. Ducharme: I hope he does, but I mean I am just saying that there was no way that we tried to ignor e it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr.

Ducharme: Before we do that , I would just like to say that we have appreciated the system and that I will definitely call on my colleagues and other people. I Mr. Chairman : 1.(

a) Minister 's .Salary - pass. Resolution No. 137: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $499,200 for Urban Affairs , Adm inistration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989-pass . That concludes the Estimates for the Departm ent of Urban Affairs . Thank you for your cooperation . * (2110) 3537 ' f

Monday, November 28, 1988 SUPPLY-LABOUR Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: When we last met, we completed (

h) the Pension Commission . We are on (

j) Grants , $6,500-the Member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Aahton (Thompaon): When we finished Estimates last time, I was expressing in no uncertain terms my concern and the concern of our caucus in regard to the cutback that took place in funding of the Labour Education Centre, particularly in view of the fact that the Labour Education Centre's elimination of a grant was justified in terms of the financial situation of the province .

I pointed out how ridiculous it is for this Government to use that as an argument in cutting back the centre, given the fact that it had increased revenues available to it, given the fact that much of those revenues went to tax breaks for businesses . I pointed out, as a matter of fact, that the amount of funding for the Labour Education Centre was less than 1 percent of the amount that this Government has rebated this year in the form of the payroll tax .

In reviewing Hansard , I note that the Minister said he had been in discussion with the president of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, Wilt Hudson , in regard to the situation for the Labour Education Centre next year. I would like to ask the Minister, is he now suggesting that there might be some chance that the Labour Education Centre will be funded in the upcoming year? Or was this just a false hope on our part that there would be some reconsideration on the part of the Government? Hon.

Edward Connery (Miniater of Labour): There is always a chance for any group to have funding and I would not close my doors to any proposal from any group to come forward, and as I mentioned that to Mr. Hudson, if they had some ideas and thoughts of funding, we had a fairly good discussion on it, that our department would entertain a request . Mr. Aahton: Well, I am trying to get a specif ic idea because this year the centre had been included in the previous Government's proposed budget. It was cut out by this Government, as I said for what I thought was a flimsy excuse.

Is this Minister saying that it was only for this year or is he suggesting that, yes, perhaps they can request funding, but they are liable to get the same answer as last year? The reason I am asking is because the Labour Education Centre is faced with a rather critical series of decisions about its own existence at the present time. The cutback in funding from the Government , I would say is nothing short of devastating in terms of its operations . It needs to have some firm idea as to whether it has to cut back its functions rather severely , in fact , elim inate a number of its significan t functions .

Or is there any prospect for it receiving funding next year? So, I would like to ask the Minister , on what basis is he making these suggestions or is he just politely saying, well , they can ask but good luck to them . Mr. Connery: The Member should know that the Labour Ed had a fair bit of surplus this year because they had 3538 not been able to fully staff their complement at the centre . We also wrote off $64,000 that , according to the contract , we could have applied for a return because it had not been expended . So we felt that this year, and what transpires next year, who knows?

We will entertain in many ways-I am sure there will be changes in other things, additions and deletions another year. These are discussed on an annual basis, and my discussion with Mr. Hudson was that if they were going to request , well, then we would entertain it. So what would come out of it, as you know, that would be the decision of Cabinet-if we sent it to Cabinet. Mr. Aahton: Once again , I think the Minister 's answer is a non-answer and I hope it is clear on the record because I would not people to get any ideas about what the intent of this Government is.

Obviously, all the Minister is saying is they will listen to anything and probably will not act on anything . The Minister knows full well that there were considerable additional revenues available in this Government process. Yet the Government trotted out this rather poor and lame excuse that somehow it did not have the money to fund this Labour Education Centre, and as I tried to do last time, I tried to get the Minister to put on the record the real reason why the Labour Education Centre was cut. I will give him another opportunity . Is it, Mr.

Minister , obviously not the fact that when you were in Opposition, when the Conservative Party was in Opposition, they attempted to describe it as the Labour propaganda cen~re and those were the exact words of the previous critic for the Conservative Party? That was part of the Conservative Party 's agenda when it was elected, which was to get rid of the Labour Education Centre because of a rather narrow-minded political agenda, despite the fact that it served the major purpose for working people in this province, and has also actually served a number of companies .

In fact, I am surprised the Minister has not mentioned that . He has always talked about the labour side Of the Labour Education Centre , and it has also worked with many companies, in terms of educational programs. Is it not a fact that the money was available this year? Is it not a fact the Government chose to cut the Labour Education Ceritre because of its agenda, its right-wing agenda, and because of its previous bias toward the Labour Education Centre as outlined by the current Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) when he was Labour critic for the Conservative Party? Mr. Connery: The Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) continuously tries to put on the record that our Party is opposed to unions and the labour movement which is totally erroneous and false, but it is something that he continually tries to do. We are doing and will do and continue to do many things for the labour movement to support them and to shore up the needs of workers in this province. So while he tries to put on the record certain things , I refuse to accept those as being the facts . *

(2120) Monday, November 28, 1988 Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, I reminded the Minister of a comment that he often made in committee when he was a critic . That was a phrase he used and that is talking about program and answers. It seems whenever a direct question is put to this Minister in his Estimates or in the House we get a programmed answer, as was the case this time . I can debate exactly where the Conservative Party stands in regard to unions, in regard to working people. I asked him a direct question on this particular line item In the budget.

I asked him particularly why, when the evidence clearly points to the fact that the stated reason was not the actual reason for the cut, why it cut back on the Labour Education Centre? I think the fact there was no answer indicates very clearly the only reason the Labour Education Centre was cut back was because of the political agenda of this Party and that is their right, I suppose, as a Government. It is their right to cut back funding to a facility that has done an excellent job in this province .

It is their right to Ignore the concerns of working people in this particular area, because it has done an excellent job for working people . I suppose it is their right to give whatever excuse they want for it, but I think the record should be clear that the only reason that the funding was cut back for the Labour Education Centre was because of this Government's agenda. it is certainly not pro-labour or pro-worker . It is most definitely anti labour and, in the case of this particular centre, that is why it was cut, because it was not in fitting with the agenda of this Government. Mr.

Connery: As the Member knows full well, when the cut was made, I stated very clearly it was a matter of our Government's priorization, and where were we going to put the money In the best interests of Manitobans? As you know, we are clamouring for money in the health care sector , in community services , education, which are all very crucial items . The decision of this Government was to ensure that our health care and community services, and so forth , were to be funded . That was an area that we thought needed it less because they did have a fairly good surplus .

We left the money in that we could have requested back . We know that they did an educational function which was appreciated . We felt there was enough money there to carry on the educational function they were performing . They did a good job of training and WHIMIS and so forth . Mr. Chairman: 2.(

j) Grants-pass . 2.(k)

(1) Pay Equity : Salaries $214 ,000 - the Member for Radisson. Mr. Allan Patterson (Radiaaon): I am just curious in the Salaries . As I mentioned , look ing at some other salary lines under Labour, one would expect that given that the staff remains static , something in the more or less normal career increments, and cost-of-living across-the-board increases , but here is three Professional/Technical, it is something in the order of about 20 percent increase over the year for those three positions . I am just wondering what is behind this particular amount . Mr.

Connery: I guess it is that old saying, "charity begins at home," and they made sure that pay equity was good there . You know how fine that-yes, when they filled the position they filled up with a higher range and that is where the higher salary came in, it is still the same numbers but at a higher range. Mr. Patterson: Different individuals ,1ired as replacements in turnover during the year. Mr. Connery: Yes, more experienced people. Mr. Patterson: Is that the same three individuals? Mr.

Connery: There were positions to be filled and they were with more experienced people at a higher income and salary, that is why it looks like a higher amount. As you know, about 5 percent is about the normal with pay equity and incremental increases and the normal 3 percent. Mr. Patterson: Just another matter here, I was looking i at the Activity Identification and I noticed on the bottom ] of it, "Researches and develops job evaluation and pay equity implementation techniques ." I am just wondering what is meant by researches and develops job evaluation techniques.

I wonder what is the need for the department to be into that type of thing . Mr. Connery: It was to help the various sectors in the original group of pay equity to assist them in developing their strategy and analysis and models . As you know , not all of every sector used the very same model. There is an awful big range of different companies , for instance, A.E. McKenzie and then you get to Channel Area Loggers, Leaf Rapid Town Properties . Some of these required assistance to develop their strategy from pay equity . Mr.

Patterson: The department assisted in developing their own job evaluation and techniques or is it just the process of getting implemented. There is nothing particularly new in job evaluation techniques and it takes relatively minor adjustments to most of the established jl ones to apply them to pay equity. , Mr. Connery: A lot of them did not have established systems and the department helped significantly with some groups that required a lot of help. Some have, as you know, like Manitoba Telephone Hydro, Manitoba Telephone , have a lot of internal expertise .

Some of the smaller corporations do not have that expertise available and so the bureau worked with them to develop that expertise and the model that they used for pay equity . Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Second Opposition): We note that there is a cutback that we raised in the House from the Budget that was presented originally last February to this Budget that would exemplify the commitment between the two Government s in terms of the Pay Equity Program. I want to ask the Minister a couple of questions. Has the health care sector pay equity program been 3539 h

Monday, November 28, 1988 completed and what is the cost of those negotiations in terms of its overall cost? Mr. Connery: It has not been finally settled. It is the only one of the components that are not finally settled yet. Mr. Doer: I understand the MHO and the employee organizations did reach an agreement . Is the Government holding up the agreement or is it held up in some other place? Mr. Connery: There are some areas still under final consideration. The Government is committed to the legislation, but there are still some problem areas that have to be worked out and hopefully very, very shortly . Mr.

Doer: He did not answer the question. Is it being held up by the Government or is it held-as I understand it, they have reached a settlement . Is the Government not ratifying the settlement or is it withholding approval of the settlement? Has the Minister consulted with the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard)? Is the Minister of Health opposed to it? What is the status of the statutory requirements in terms of the time lines? Mr. Connery: It is a provisional agreement that has not been finally ratified . We hope within a day or two we can have some announcement on this . Mr.

Doer: So is there any change from the orginal agreement between the Government and the tentative agreement and it is only subject to Cabinet ratification , or is it being altered in some way, shape or form? I am trying to find out where-in the cup to the lip where the slippage is, Mr. Chairperson . •

(2130) Mr. Connery: The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchatd) has met with the health groups and so the final outcome, we hope that will be announced very, very shortly. Mr. Doer: Is the Minister of Health interfering with the pay equity process in the health care field? Mr. Connery: The Minister of Health is not going to abrogate the legislation . You can be sure that the legislation will be followed . Mr. Doer: So we can expect that announcement by Wednesday, I am to assume from your answers to the question . Mr. Connery: I hope very soon-very, very soon. Mr.

Doer: A further question: is the Minister satisfied with the fact that the pay equity at this point in time, or the situation with women and men in terms of wages in Manitoba is higher than the country but lower than where it should be on an hourly basis or an annual basis, etc .? In h is first six months of office, has there been any change in the 68 percent or so rate between women and men, and does he feel that pay equity is necessary in the private sector and he should embark on those consultations with the affected organizations? Mr.

Connery: The numbers apparently have not moved all that significantly , both federally and provincially. As you know , our Government is committed to continue with pay equity . It is a matter of how quickly we move and, as you know , when we took office we decided that the best procedure, best line of action , was to evaluate what had transpired . As you know, when we took office, the final ones were not in for what was legislated, were not in yet, and we had not had a chance to analyze them . As you know, there has been quite a range of amounts of cost for pay equity amongst various sectors.

I do not know if the Member has them but the University of Manitoba, for instance, was a three-year increase in the total wage settlement, the University of Winnipeg was 1.6, St. Boniface College 1.2, Brandon University 4, and even as low as, for AFM, the Alcoholism Foundation, was .02, Manfor was .7. So it varies with the specific employer as to how much of an increase and the blend and a whole lot of various factors that can influerce it. Mr. Doer: One would be led to believe that the data from last year and the data that the Minister has now quoted demonstrates that (

a) it is not chaotic, and (

b) it is not costly in terms of projected cost of payroll to begin to achieve equity between men and women in our society. So the data would lead one to believe, I would think , that the private sector is an obvious next objective of the Government . I understand the political reason why you are saying that we are watching it and we are reviewing it and we are looking at it, but I was wondering, given the experience, why the Minister is not recommending to his Cabinet that they not proceed into the private sector . Mr. Connery: We are doing an extremely large amount of consultation .

We have just sent out packages to people in the private sector, to the schools or the school districts, to municipalities, to give them the package to let them have a look at it, let them come back to us, where we want to ensure that what we do is going to be fair and equitable . This Government has always that it is committed to ensuring that women in the workplace are getting equal pay for equal value of work and should . So there is no lack of commitment in that particular process but it is a matter of implementation and timing .

The last thing we want to do is have some real glaring errors which we did not foresee and have us into problems that maybe we will have difficulty getting out of. Now having said that , if it is going to cost some money, that is fine. Women should be paid properly in the workplace . I support that fully. At the same time we have to recognize that there is a cost . Within the Civil Service alone, it is $16 million which is not an insignificant amount of money and when we look at all of these, it is a significant amount .

When we are looking at the Civil Service, that is paid for by the taxpayer, and rightfully so, if it is women getting paid the rate that they should . Let us also remember that while we 3540

Monday, November 28, 1988 call it "pay equity" it is an unequal pay equity because, depending on the employer or the Crown corp or whatever, depending on the mix of people, the mix of women versus men, the value of the men 's jobs with the women that all of a sudden we see people in a given category getting paid a different wage than somebody in another Crown or another group or whatever. So that has led to some unequal wages amongst people . Mr. Doer: I appreciate that the consultative process Is necessary in proceeding to any stage of this very important area .

I Just ask the Minister to-In his six months now on the job and with the experience he has had looking at the situation in the workplace across Manitoba, and given the fact that women's wages are still in the below 70 percent range, does the Minister now feel that pay equity in the private sector should be developed by his Government, implemented in a legislated way, notwithstanding the way in which it is approached? Mr. Connery: Well, the Premier of the province said publicly that he would not legislate pay equity into the private sector .

Having said that, I met just this morning with the Chamber of Commerce to discuss pay equity along with affirmative action in the private sector. They are also going to do some models because we believe that once people see, and it is the fear of the unknown and it is the fear of something that they do not know and what is the cost going to be. I believe that when a lot of people see that it is not a significant cost, it is not the big thing that is going to do, but it is going to bring some women in the workplace to the realization of income that they should have that that will change .

I think we will see a voluntary program that we want to wo1 k with whatever groups to develop it, to encourage it, because it is in the private sector that most of the jobs are available. We are looking at 500,000 jobs compared to 18,000 in the Civil Service . As you know, the intake of people into the Civil Service is so low that even if all of the new outside recruits, positions were given to the affirmative action people we still would not significantly change the numbers in a hurry.

So it is in the private sector, in the Crown corps and in the other external agencies that we will see the opportunity for affirmative action , but the pay equity sector we are working with the Governments and we are working with the other groups , with them , discussing it so that they will come back to us. We want to take a look in the private sectors, what sort of models for pay equity to ensure that it is a model that will work before we go into it and then find out we have made some mistakes and then get real animosity towards it. We want to ensure that it moves and it moves smoothly . Mr.

Doer: How long will the Government utilize the voluntary methodology if it fails to change, and in fact if things go backwards in the next year , will it contemplate changing their way of delivering pay equity from a voluntary to a Legislative format in the private sector? Mr. Connery: The Member said ii it was going backwards . How do you mean going backwards? Mr. Doer: If it stays the same- Mr. Connery: The percentages of what women earn compared to men? I am not sure you have read the arguments made by different groups that women do not make as high a percentage as the men.

Some opt for certain jobs because they are going to raise a family so they do not try to get into the higher paid jobs. That has some reflection . This could be true. I have not had an opportunity to study these arguments . After the House Session we will have more time to have a stronge r look at some of these argumen ts and have our departments do some backup work on it, yes. Mr. Doer: Does that mean that the Minister does not believe that some of the pay discrepancy is based on occupational gender-based classification in our society ? Mr.

Connery: I think there are possibilities there wher e in fact there is fact. Mr.

Doer: If there is fact and if, after a year, the voluntar y system is not able to succeed , would the Minister be looking at dealing with that fact of the gender-based classification reality in the private sector and the public sector that has been addressed to some degree by pay equity, would he be willing to look at that experienc e in a year, which would be 18 months since their mand ate in terms of moving the way indeed their colleagues did in Nova Scotia , albeit they did it the day before the election was called, but moving into the private sector with the Conservative Government in Nova Scotia? Mr.

Connery: I think we will continue to look at all departments along this line, to say in a year, six months or two years, we will be monitoring, viewing . Your previous Government , your Party, will be quite surprised with some of the things that we will be coming forward with . We are a proactive labour group that since rely believes in promoting the worker, not worrying too much about the labo ur uni on or the employer per se, but the worker, who is our main concern . If we see that there are inequities in the workplace, we will continue to work .

Who knows , I cannot say today what we are going to do exactly a year from now. We will be observing it. When we see that there is a need for a change, then we will be bringing forth proposals. •

(2140) Mr. Doer: I have the words " review , consult, monitor ," a lot of fairly indecisive words , nice political word s but very indecisive words from the Minister. For the women making 68 percent of salaries of men and for the women who are mak ing tha t on th e bas is of gender -bas ed classifications , not work of value i n terms of classificat ions, what real hope can this Minister hold out in terms of his Government for those people besides just the politically correc t words that do not mean anything in terms of action , in terms of the bot tom line? Mr. Connery: The Member says that we only- review , only discuss , only, only, only, which in this particular 3541 •

C) Monday, November 28, 1988 case we are reviewing . But as he knows in the minimum wage, the construction wages and so forth, we did not review and discuss . Yes, we reviewed and then we came in and came through with the recommendations to increase those wages. Those are facts . As a Government we do review where it is necessary and then we make the decisions. Of course, the Member knows that we are making decisions on a continuous basis and consulting on a continuous basis.

We feel that the consultations we are doing in pay equity at this point will reap more benefit in the long run than having ploughed ahead before having observed what we had already done. I think that is what the previous Government was doing, ploughing ahead . I think they maybe would have been sorry if the models were not right and some real problems arose. Politically it was an excellent decision to make, but in the realities of making it work I have some reservations. In fact I think it was an error. Mr. Doer: So you think the existing pay equity program is an error? Mr.

Connery: No, the existing one was not an error, but there are some glitches and there are some minor problems that we are reviewing. Before we move ahead into new waters, we want to do some consulting and reviewing to ensure that the next step that we embark on, and I am saying the next step, we want to ensure that it is properly conceived and the models are there to make it work well. Mr. Doer: What is the next step and when can we expect it then? Mr. Connery: As soon as we have finalized it, you will be the first to know. Mr.

Doer: If I was to go and speak to the women who are making 68 percent of men , based on classification tomorrow, I can give them no hope from this Minister after all the wheat and the shaft are separated? Mr. Connery: We want a model that will work in these various classifications . The previous Government did not study what had happened, were not taking the time to study the models that they had in place in the sectors , and were moving ahead in my estimation before they had done this study .

The dangers were that they would have had some very inappropriate models possibly and caused more problems for the cause of pay equity, and really employment equity. I look upon it in the work force as not just pay equity but employment equity for all people . Besides just women, women of visible minorities, women with handicaps , and men with the same target groups. Mr. Doer: So what was such a major problem in the models that the Minister has reviewed over the last six months that would not lead him to move from the positive exper ience .

You said there were a few minor " glitches " that would not allow him to move with that experience into the private sector? Mr. Connery: It is the model that needs redefining , having the male comparability in various sectors that we are going to go into . As you know it is compared against male dominated jobs so, depending on the mix and so forth, that there are some concerns. We are doing this and I can give the Members opposite, each Party, we do not know how many we have of what we are mailing out . You have got that already . So you are very aware that we are really serious about consulting .

We are not being facetious. We think it is a well-done model. In fact, Roberta has done an excellent job so that was one of the- An Honourable Member: Roberta is not the one I am worried about . I am worried about the Government. Mr. Connery: You are worried about the Government . That is one of the few good things that your Government did . You brought in a good member for the director for pay equity . I am complimenting this particular individual who is at this table today . We have a lot of good employees . In fact most employees are good . Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Chairperson, a minute ago we heard the Minister say that the Labour Education Centre was doing such a good job. That is essentially not the point . They cut the funding . It is the same thing with regard to pay equity . The previous NOP Government budgeted $649,800 this year, the same budget . The current amount is-and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong-$315,500 .00. Now where is the commitment in that? Where is the commitment to pay equity in school divisions, in municipalities , the next sectors to be brought under pay equity according to the plan that was adopted?

I will get into probably the most important one in a couple of minutes when I hear the Minister's answers on those questions in regards to the private sector, but where is this commitment that the Minister keeps talking about? Mr. Connery: Well, as the Member should know, we had we carried on and had they carried on, if they had still been in Government , there would have been an overlap of the finalization of a very large segment which was 23 health units and so forth. Because we put it on hold to review it, that portion was cleaned up.

There would have been a need for a lot of extra staff because it would have been finalizing one

section that had been the legislation and at the same time bringing in new. So you would have been doing two sectors at one time which would have required a lot of extra money in staff, mainly staff , but because we put on hold to review and we are doing the review as these other ones are being finalized. Now the clean-up of those sectors will be finished and the staff will be free then to implement the next step without having to have gone for additional resources . Mr. Ashton: The previous Government increased the allotment not just for salaries but for other expenses.

Salaries have been increased by over $100,000; Other Expenditures by $160,000; and now this Minister is saying that he has put it on hold, that explains the cutback . Once again, whether the Minister justifies the cutback leading to putting the program on hold or the putting on hold leading to the cutback, it is six of one 3542

Monday, November 28, 1988 and half a dozen of another . This Government has slowed down the process of implementation of pay equity . So I ask the Minister once again, where do all those words that he has put on the record come into play? I mean how are they worth anything more than the words he said about the Labour Educat ion Centre where he went and he cut the funding down to zero? Mr.

Connery: It does not sink in I guess to the Honourable Member for Thompson having never been in the business side or understanding or working with large amounts of money that when you duplicate your work, you double your cost, and that duplicat ion would have been only for a very brief time because those others would have been finished-this way, and it was not done to save money, but it was done to ensure that the program we had an opportun ity to review .

At the same time that allowed the first segment that was legislated to be cleaned up and to be reviewed and , because it was done in that fashion, it did not require the duplication of employees . •

(2150) Mr. Ashton: I do not know if I should even comment on the Minister's comments. He has made those types of comments before. I do not really think that one has to have been a big businessman to be a Member of the Legislature in this province. I think that we all bring one basic thing in here and it is common sense and that is what I am talking about here. The Minister is saying about this great commitment this Government has to pay equity and yet he has put it on hold, using his own words . It has been put on hold. We have seen, despite the fact that the current phase of pay equity has been completed-it was completed just a few short weeks ago according to

schedule that there has been no commitment on the part of the Government to the next stages and very important stages , school divisions, for example, where are 19,600 odd employees . How about municipalities where there are close to 13,700 employees and probably the most important, Mr. Chairperson , the private sector? The Minister can talk all he wants about knowing the business sector and what not. Does the Minister not know that 336,000 women, 76 percent of women, are employed in the private sector? They want some indication of where this Government is going to proceed .

There was a commitment made by the prev ious NOP Government to bring in pay equ ity in the private sector during the normal course of the Government and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that it would have been brought in probably this year or next year as par t of the normal four -year term of the Government had it not been for the mid-term defeat . I am asking the Minister to put aside some of his personal attacks and deal with the issues. Where is the commitment of th is Government? Mr.

Connery: The Member should know that Assiniboine South School Division decided to voluntarily implement pay equity, and our department is working with them to help them . They are finding some real difficulties because of the low numbers of males to compare with . They are having a difficult time finding a model. We believe this is something that was valuabl e to go into it before we said " yes" to all the scho ol divisions , that we would take a look at a couple and find out where the real problems are so tha t we can help them all in a row.

If we get a whole bunch of school divisions trying to implement pay equity and having a real difficult tim e, I do not think we would have done anybody any good . This way we are going to have the opportunity of this experience to then come up with a model that will assist us in implementing pay equity in the schools . But I can assure you that in our consultation , and I do not know if the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) has a list , but we sent these out to many, many groups, such as the Manitoba Association of School Trustees , School Superintendents , the Schoo l Business Officials , the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools , other schools . We are looking at the Internat ional Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Manitoba Food and Commercial Workers, MGEA , Manitoba Teachers ' Society , Seven Oaks School Division. I do not see the Chamber of Commerce in here .- (Interjection)- Oh, I see, these are the school divis ions.

Then we are looking at the municipalities , which is another large group , and if you look through them , there are a very, very large numb er of them . If you loo k at the women 's community , key parties , we have gon e to over 20 organizations there , I am told , to consult with them. We are looking at the human resources , which is the Canadian Public Personnel Management Association and the Human Resource Management .

In the private sector , we are looking at the umbrella groups: the Canadian Federation of Independent Business ; the Canadian Manufacturers Association ; the Chambers of Commerc e, Manitoba ; Winnipeg Chamb er of Commerce ; Canadi an Labour Congress ; Confedera ti on of Can adian Unions ; Manitob a Federation of Labou r. We could go on and on and on the Manitoba Dairy Association , the Manitoba Feed Industry , the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association .

So the Member can see that in our effort to consult we have not been selective but we have gone to all of the g roups , so that we do not want to star t with one grou p and then when it is completed , start slowly with another . We want to look at all of the concerns tha t we have and add ress them. This is a responsibl e Government. I thin k this is the proper way to go to ensure that the next step we take is going to be prop erly conceived . This is wha t I would ca11 a pilot on these, to have a look a t them .

We a re going to ask some businesses to do a dry run , not that it would be implemented , but c;to a dry run on pay equity to see how it would affec t them. We have got to do it among different sectors of the business community because every sector could have some different experiences by the number of men in the work force , the value of those male jobs, and that imp acts on the pay equity for women. Mr.·Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister is suggesting that the difficulty with school divis ions is related to the 3543

) Monday, November 28, 1988 significant number of female employees , the lack of comparative job classes . Is he not aware of the fact, for example, that in terms of hospitals, the numbers of employees eligible for wage adjustmen ts, which means the number of employees in female-dominated classifications, by and large women but not necessarily strictly so, that the figure was 85 percent? So how , first of all, can we proceed in hospitals , which we are doing, but not proceed in school divisions?

Also, does the Minister not understand the concern that has been raised in the Legislature about proceeding in this ad hoe way in the sense that it creates more confusion than it does create order ? I mean up to this point the Minister even himself admitted , despite the complaints of the Conservative Opposition, I might add, which I have heard ever since we have introduced pay equity in this province, that it has been working well. In fact, all the Minister could refer to, in response to the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer), was to minor glitches .

It has been working up to this point in time, because it has been programmed, it has been comprehensive and because it has been organized. My question is why now has this Minister moved away from this approach? Why is he now talking about tri al runs in the Assiniboine School Division? Why has he put on hold - using his own words-the next stages of implementation? Why, in particular , has he made no commitment whatsoever for the private sector? Now it is fine to talk about consultation . The Minister talks about this letter and the various groups that are here.

He already has the stand of many of these groups on the record in favour of pay equity, particularly moving it into the private sector. I guess what I really ask is th e bottom line , what is the commitment of this Government? It has already said "no" to pay equity in the private sector unless it is on a voluntary basis . We all know it is on a voluntary basis now. There is· no pay eq uity to speak of in the private sector as a whole. There may be individual companies. I am sure there must be a few. In fact, I know there are a few that are voluntarily brought in, but the voluntary system just is not working .

Neither has it worked in the public sector itself. It took the Government, the NOP Government , to take a leadership role on this. I might add, leading the country and many other jurisdictions are now following us in our example, to say the voluntary approach has not worked , that women deserve , as a right, pay equity, and we have to proceed in an orderly way. So why is this Minister now reversing that? Why is he not looking at the experience of the pay equity? Why is he now, to use his own words, putting things on hold, putting pay equity on hold , those are his exact word s.

Why is he not proceeding in an orderly manner to implement it next in school di visio ns , next in municipalities and then in the private secto r? Mr. Connery: Let us be sure that we put it on the record that when the Bill was passed to implement pay equity, it was supported by the then only Liberal in the House, the Member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) and all of the Conservatives unanimously supported the implementation of pay equity. I think the Member should know that the legislation really was constructed and developed for the public sector. There have been some problems in the public sector .

For it to work in the private sector, we think we will have to maybe develop different models. That is why the consultation process is to go out to them and talk with them . We think this is the appropriate way. We will bring it in when people realize that, yes, they can be implemen ted properly and sensibly. There is not going to be a backlash. As you know , there was some opposition to it from certain sectors in the public sector. If we do the models and it is shown to work effectively and clearly and not to be out of sight as far as money goes, then it will be welcomed when the legislation comes in. Mr.

Chairman: I see we are running out of time. Is it the will of the committee to pass this item this evening? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, I also have a continued series of questions . If the Minister wishes to suggest that the Conservative Party has been fully in support of pay equity, I suggest you read the comments of the previous Conservative Labour critic. I can read them back to him . He sat in caucus with that Member . I think the position of the Conservative Party was quite clear. It certainly was not the kind of support the Minister is suggesting.

But I want to ask specifically, in terms of the private sector, because as I said that is where the greatest inequity exists, first of all, in terms of numbers. In fact, 76 percent of women in the labour force work in the private sector. But also not only in terms of the number of women , but also in terms of the wage gap. I believe the figure in the public sector is that women make approximately 81 percent of the wages that men earn upon average . The Minister can correct me if there is an updated figure on it. But in the private sector the figure is closer to the 60 percent, it is in the 60 percent range .

So there is a far greater inequity that exists in the private sector. If the Minister has further information on that to update us in that regard, I would be very interested hearing that when we next resume the sitting of the committee. Mr. Connery: It should be known that the previous Government realized themselves that they could not do everything at one time, because they know, they brought in legislation to cover a certain portion of the public sector. The Civil Service was first and then came the 23 large health care units and the universities.

So they realized that it had to be implemented in a staged fashion. The only difference between them and us is that they were going to carry on before they had an opportunity to review what had been implemented and there was not time. As you can see, we are doing models in the private sector. We are doing models in the public sector. We think when we move in the next stage that we will have a much more reasoned and much better piece of legislation to work with . It will move much more smoothly. • (2200) 3544

Monday, November 28, 1988 Mr. Chairman: The hour being ten o'clock, committee rise. SUPPLY-ATTORNEY-GENERAL •

(2000) Mr. Chairman, Mark Minenko: Order, please. I call the committee to order again . We are continuing to consider the Estimates of the Department of the Attorney-General. I believe when last we left, the Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) was finishing up his question. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Paa): Yes, Mr. Chairman, I had spoken briefly and the Minister was going to get back to me on the question of additional judges being put in place In the Dauphin area, which may serve in Swan River or in Pelican Rapids . I am wondering if the Minister has that information now. Hon.

Jame, Mccrae (Attorney-General): Yes, the matter Is presently under review by the department . I had discussions with the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for courts just after the House adjourned for the dinner break and I am advised that the matter is under discussion in that branch of the department. To say more at this point would not be very useful but the matter is being reviewed. Mr.

Harapiak: At the same meetings there were questions from the Native people to see if there could be a bit more involvement from the elders of the community when they are dealing with the sentencing and to be dealing in cooperation with the judge who Is holding the hearings. I am wondering if there is any active consideration being given for having some involvement with the elders from the communities in the judicia! system at all. Mr.

Mccrae: I think Governments , certainly the Government of Manitoba, the present one, is becoming more and more aware of the positive input that Native elders have in terms of discussions about corrections policy and sentencing and so on, and I think the public inquiry Into the administration of justice and aboriginal people will undoubtedly have something to say which may very well echo some of the things I have been hearing from some of those very Native leaders that the Honourable Member and I are discussing .

I think the Government today is listening and perhaps the previous Government had been listening more than ever before in the history of Native justice in the Province of Manitoba. I think that is a positive sign and I can tell you that I certainly have an open mind when it comes to Native justice issues, open enough to accommodate the public inquiry into Native justice Issues. We will be very interested in the report that the judges make to us. In the meantime, other discussions are ongoing. •

(2005) Mr. Harapiak: I am pleased that the Attorney-General has an open mind to it because that Is a ·topic that you hear quite often in the Native community because there is a lack of respect for the judicial system and I think if there could be more involvement with the elders then I think there would be more respect in the community to the sentences being handed out . Just one of the areas that I would like to raise that has already been raised previously, and that is in the area of crime prevention in The Pas. The committee that was previously operating under Sergeant Garry Williams .

It was very popular at that time and it was new in the community . There was a lot of public interest because previous to that there had been no involvement with the public . They worked on several very worthwhile projects, including Safe Grad, Neighbourhood Watch . (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Edward Helwer, in the Chair.) There is also a program put in place for dealing with children in low-income housing units, youth justice . There was a committee dealing with all those issues and there was a lot of public interest at that time.

Since that time I think the people who first volunteered are quite often the more enthusiastic people and I think they are probably getting burnt out. There was imlolvement from the school boards and appointment from the community council, as well as the Chamber of Commerce and the The Pas Ministerial Assoc iat ion Recreation Committee . There was a lot of involvement in the community and there was an awful lot of interest. Since that time there has been a change in a transfer of the staff sergeant who was previously started up the committee . He was a full-time person at that time .

I guess there has been some new priorization of needs in the community so there is not a full-time person on that committee anymore . I just want to ask the Attorney -General if they are still committed to try and assist the crime prevention committee working in The Pas area? Mr. Mccrae: Mr. Acting Chairman , we are interested in crime prevention in every corner of the province . This matter was raised earlier by the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr.

Edwards) and I am not sure if I heard the question put by the Honourable Member for The Pas whether Sergeant Garry Williams is a member of the town detachment or the rural side at The Pas.- (Interjection)- The Honourable Member tells me, Mr. Acting Chairman, that Sergeant Williams was with the town detachment . The Honourable Member , as well as the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), should be aware, if they are not already, that the town policing is a matter of contract between the municipality involved and the RCMP. We would be happy to raise this matter with the RCMP from their point of view.

When it comes to the municipal arrangements the municipalities can have whatever they are prepared to pay for. In terms of the provincial contracts for the rural contract , that is a different matter, but if we are talking about a town detachment those questions would equally as well be put to the town councillors and the representatives at the municipal level, becaus e that is with whom the contract for policing in the town is made. 3545 ,, f

Monday, November 28, 1988 Mr. Harapiak: recognize that is a municipal responsibility but we also recognize that crime rates and high break-in rates in the community are not being carried out by people from the town itself . The police budgets in that community are much higher than any other communities . I think if you compare it with Swan River, although Swan River is two-thirds the population of The Pas, their p9lice budget is three times as high. I do not think it is fair that the people from the Town of The Pas or the surrounding community would be saddled with the high police costs in that area.

I am wondering if there is any consideration. I know this is a grant that comes under Municipal Affairs but I know the Attorney-General would have input in It. Is there any consideration of increasing the $100,000 grant to a higher level than It is at this time? •

(2010) Mr. Mccrae: We have been having very interesting and, I must say, wide-ranging discussions with these Estimates. We really are not at the line in the Estimates dealing with the RCMP contracts . My assistant , regarding that, is sitting up In the gallery, which is a little too far away to get the message through. The Honourable Member talks about a $100,000 grant. I think, if he might remember to raise that issue when we do get to the RCMP matter, it might very well yield in more fruitful discussion.

In any event, I can tell the Honourable Member that this is something that we will be raising with Assistant Superintendent Henry, I believe very soon, as early as tomorrow, this and a number of other issues . The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): 1.(

c) Research , Planning and Eva:·.: · on:

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass . 1.(

d) Financial and Administrative Services:

(1) Salaries $711,500;

(2) Other Expenditures $129,200; for a total of $840,700-the Member for St. James . Mr. Paul Edwards (St. Jamee): If I am not mistaken we are on 1.(

e) now? -(Interjection)- 1.(d). I only have one question. There is an increase in these two, when you combine the Salaries and Other Expenditures, of approximately $170,000 by my calculation . Can the Attorney-General explain what the increase is accounted for? Mr. Mccrae: I think the Honourable Member is looking at the bottom line figure . If I take him up to under Salaries, Administrative Support, there is a figure that increases from '87-88 to this year from $398,500 to $453,000.00 . Does the Honourable Member follow where I am at? I think that might be the main component for any significant incr-eases.

I am advised that this increase includes pay equity adjustments and $22 ,000 for severance pay for one employee . I think if that is the figure the Honourable Member-I think that is where I see the most dramatic increase . That may reflect the increase at the bottom line as well. Is that what the Honourable Member is getting at? Mr. Edwards: Pay equity. Mostly pay equity . The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): 1.(d)(1)-pass ; 1.(d)(2)-pass. 1.(

e) Personnel Services :

(1) Salaries $379,400;

(2) Other Expenditures $35,700-the Member for St . James. Mr. Edwards: I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate to the House how many chairpersons he has appointed to various boards during his term thus far. *

(2015) Mr. Mccrae: I apologize to the Honourable Member for the delay. The count that we have is that we have named five chairmen. Mr. Edwards: The Attorney-General indicates five chairmen. Am I correct in saying that none of the chairpersons ' appointed were female? Mr. Mccrae: The Honourable Member is correct. In the case of all of those boards though, I cannot tell the Honourable Member the case in each and every one of them but I believe that in some of them the vice-chairs are women.

The Law Reform Commission , of course, the intention was to bring the Law Reform Commission in as it left and there was only one vacancy made available by one person leaving the province and that vacancy was filled by a woman by the name of Pearl McGonigal. Mr. Edwards: How many of the chairpersons were Native? Mr. Mccrae: None. Mr.

Edwards: The Attorney-General has mentioned, and again I think it goes back to his June 9, 1988 press release, that there would be new training for magistrates and justices of the peace, and in the House recently we discussed that and I think there was a particular concern that I had that this Attorney-General had in fact appointed a number of magistrates and jus tices of the peace.

Is Personnel Services , I presume, going to be developing a training program tha t the Attorney General has promised for magistrates and justices of tl:le peace, and I would ask him to confirm now that training will be retroactive to those not only who he has appointed but who sit as magistrates and justices of the peace now so that they all may have the benefit of a training program? Mr. Mccrae: Back in June, Mr. Acting Chairman, at the time I announced the Dewar Review, I also announced the training and retraining and seeing that manuals were kept up to date and followed and so on.

There is no way that there can be any talk of training of magistrates and justices of the peace without including in the discussion the Chief Judge of the Provincial Court of Manitoba because we must recognize that the judiciary is independent and separate and apart from Government , from the executive branch of Government. 3546 aluation

Monday, November 28, 1988 So immediately upon dealing with the Dewar Report and shortly after bringing on the new Chief Judge of the Prov ince of Manitoba and Immediately upon bringing in the new-what shall we call him , the reconstituted Deputy Attorney-General - in any event , immediately upon bringing Mr. Pilkey in, the emphasis was replaced, if I can use that expression . In other words the announcement was made first in June and I know that Mr. Toew's committee, the committee regarding The

Summary Conv ictions Act , they have gone to work but I also know that immediately upon bringing Mr. Pilkey on board, the follow-up to the training and the manual matter was taken into account and I have had discussions with the Chief Judge Stefanson as well . So It is not something I can do all by myself . I could not do it without the full cooperation of the Provincial Court and I have been assured of that support and cooperation . Mr.

Edward : I wonder if the Attorney-General could give us a status , a report on the Affirmative Action Program as it applies to his department and the actual numbers of females and visible minor ities that his department has been successful in placing and in particular I look for success in management levels with in the department . *

(2020) Mr. McCrN: I am advised that the less senior levels , we can report good progress , but in terms of specific figures, etc., we can get those for the Honourable Member . To identify or recognize a commitment, one has to examine the actions of a department. I think if you look at the higher levels, you will see some changes in recent months . Certainly, I cannot take the credit for it, but the Legislative Counsel for this province is a female person brought in by the previous Government .

The Registrar General of the Land Titles Office , the Land Titles for Manitoba, Is a woman, very well-known , and with very much credited capabilities . We are very pleased that our Registrar General should be for the first time in history in this province a female person . The relationship that the Land Titles Office has with its new Registrar General , I understand is very positive . Certainly, it is posit ive between my office and the Land Titles Office . I think when we can show that at senior levels we are making some progress in a short space of time , then we are headed in the right direction .

I can point again to a number of the boards that we have appointed which have not been very many despite comments about Black Friday and so on. There have not been very many board changes In my department to th is point . The Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) wants to get going similar to the discussion we had this afternoon I guess. He suggests that we certainly have made a lot of appointmen ts.

I understand there are something approaching 30 boards and commissions under my authority and I thin k t o have made changes on five of them is not unreasonable at about the seven-month point in an administ ration . I have not got all of the details , but I can tell the Honourable Member that if he checks each of the appointments made by this Government since coming into office that we have maintained a significant commitment to women in our society in terms of asking them to take

part in the public administration of the province 's affairs. We have taken due regard of Native people , of visible minorities and handicapped persons in terms of our appointments process . I think we have also done better , if that is the correct word , than the previous Government has and it is our policy to continue In that way, and to see that all groups in our society are properly represented on boards and commissions which govern the affairs of Manitobans . I can point with pride as well to the independent Law Reform Commission and thank Ms.

McGonigal for agreeing to be part of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission . We, in this Party at least, see that as a very important commission in terms of the refo rm of our laws in this province . So I d isagree with the Honourable Member when he suggests that there have been a lot of appointments , a lot of boards changed. That is just not true when taken as a percentage of my responsibilities . Certainly, we are doing the best we can and we strive as much as possible to see that all groups are prope rly represented on boards and commissions . Mr. Bill Uruki (Interlake): Mr.

Acting Chairman , just a question on the area of Personnel Services to the Attorney-General. One of his officers in the Court of Queen 's Bench was charged earlier this year. His functions were in the area of Small Claims Court. Can the Minister indicate what has been the disposition and what has the department done? Has the charge been disposed of and on what basis in handling this matte r internally has the department acted? *

(2025) Mr. Mccrae: I understand an employe e of the department was the subject of a charge . The em ployee involved has undergone significan t rehabil itati on counselling and programing . The c harge has been stayed . Mr. Uruki: Is the employee back performing his earlier duties? Mr. Mccrae: Yes. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer) : 1.(

e) Personnel Services :

(1) Salaries-pass ;

(2) Other Expendi tures pass. (

f) Computer Services : ( 1) Salaries $593 ,700;

(2) Other Expenditures $396 ,800-the Member for St. James . Mr. Edwards : The Attorney -General has mention ed repeatedly, with some derision, that he estimates it will cost $12.5 million , I believe he said, to put title s on the comput er at the Land Titles Office . He says he does not say he did not say th at. Perhaps he will clarify -ihat in his answer wha t he was talking abou t, $12.5 millio n. 3547

h Monday, November 28, 1988 Perhaps he could give this House some background Information and some support for what his department has cost for putting the titles in the Winnipeg Land Titles Office, which by my information are about 500,000, on to the computer so that . the data base is complete, somewhat like they did in Toronto, in Alberta, but a decision which was not taken here in Manitoba . What are the figures that the department came up with to computerize, get the data on the computer? What support does the Attorney-General have for the actua l figures? Mr.

Mccrae: I would ask the Honourable Member to hold that thought until we get to Land Titles in the Estimates. This page has to do with Computer Services and other areas of the department . The Honourable Member has given me my lead and I should answer the first part about the $12 million . That $12 million was a reference to the Honourable Member's question In the House, that we should spend every penny of profit made by the Land Titles Office in Winnipeg to solve the backlog problem . When you take that $12 million , that is only for one year.

The Honourable Member 's suggestion could get pretty expensive over the years . Mr. Edwards: I note that the Activity Identification of this department is to perform feasibility and cost-benefit analysis for the department . I would ask the Attorney General to please inform the House what his cost was and what the Land Titles Offic,e in particular, what their cost was for putting those things on the title . Surely, I am sure they spoke to Toronto and Alberta, provinces that have just done it . They must have some documentation to support what the actu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-86b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 86b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	941ff8d8c23fd6b9495b0fb9342ddce10a8075af

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