VOL. 2 NO. 8 PRELIMINARY \:JNEDITED TRA."'SCRIPT HUUSE OF ASSE!".BLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.ffi. - 6;00 p.m. 1'HURSDAY I M.li.RCH 16, 1978 I· t .I

Order, ;?laase! :~. SP2 .. \.:G:.:~: The :1on. tl1.e Prel!lier. ::r. Speaker, on ~:arch 2nd. oi' this year l r:oceived a letter fro;:J t:1e ner-JJer for Grand Falls ('lr. "'Lundri.;an) to t!"le effect, a.nci I •.vill read the l~tter: "~~y tiear Pratnier: :L~ :i..£ '.·~:i.:: .. Gi.ncere ra.:;re: tll.::t I :aust .:2G.vise ]OU o£ -::.y i.t1t2ntion :o r~sibn oy position .:J.S :·!ir:istcr of -',_,ural Z.ev~lopment iir..d Pu'Jlic ::or:~:o uitc1 your C-overw.ent. tTYou :1ava asked oe to delay i!lY intent:::..on for a f~t< days for reaso_ls w:1ich t;e :1ave discussed.

Out of r~s~Ject for your r=~uest I advise t~:::!.t t:1y Jeci.sion · ... ;;ill become ~~f:ctive rriciay, :!c..rch 10~ 197~. ·!~u are clearly a~;arc of ::.:.y r:2aJcr .. s. ! c.acr..ot s~:-ve t~1e Govertl!jlent ':-tith .:~ny pride •;}r feeling of self worth as the ::em~er fvr Gran.\ Falls >vit:hout sorr.e :1onourable: realization of the public commitment:> tJhic:1 you an~ I made a year ago. "-:ly personal ap~;reciution fer the opportunity to associate an~ Ho:rk 'dth Government durinz t:1e last two ar.d a half years. "Personal regrets for uy decision." :!r.

Spe..-l:;.er, that ';.;as received O!.l ::..arcll Z:!.·i. ~ and as !.lost hon. ::1.:mbers nre 3uu.re T:u L;~d'' Joh~:son and did not rctur-;-, l.itltil aarch :!.3th. _·-...-,.y <lel'"Y i;.1 a•1.r..ouncing •·•as for the reason that I w:mted personally to revie:. the situation <~ic~ t:•e ~ember for Gra!Hi Falls. I had :1.oped to })e able to pereuade him to see the gove=ent 's point of vie'W' and Cabinet's poit.t of vie>r as to what has to be done in this Province. Because I feel very strong!.y, Sir, that Ca'binet :1a3 the responsibility to ;let on behalf, as t:1.ey see it, 668 -- .. , --·- - ----

of s .. Jecific district or aa:.-.,. one Sl:J~clfic i~1diviC.ual w (;:r. Lu."ldric;an) llas [:et >iith his dis::rict :'arty association and advist:!ri thew ~1hat was allegedly in t:1e Jud:;et.

I t!1.ink, as ~nost people reali2:c on 1:Joth sides of the '!:louse, a~d particular ?eople '.7llo T .. :ere in C2.bincts ::,e£ort:, it is a funda::-:.ental re·;u.ire:.z:.ent of ~11 parli.:rBents and all Cabinet :mir..i.::3ters t:;.at a. buC.;;et, or I ~:auld. li::e to say, Sir, Defore fi:J.i3:.!ir:;,; J?erson.3.l friend. ~!e i.s a perso:1 ~ .. ·ito baaically is a very LinG. any individual may ":Je, as lonz ,:s tl.~.e Cab:!.net system is such as it is, uenbers of that body have no choice but to abide ";,y the decisior. of Cabinet or resign their portfolio.

Al.1.d m~der t~;ose ci:::cu!:!stances I very regretfully have had to, and have accepted, the resi;;na~~i.Jn ,Jf tD.e hon. me:n.ber. HR. SPEAKER: Tl'e hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~r .:'l. LO\JE: :·ir. Speal:er, },efore I ::take ny short cornnent 'Jn '\7:.::t the ?rernier has just saiJ 7 n.sy I 2.s1: the Pre.nier tlii.s Ci l~!scion? -J .t.:; t:.t: hor:.. ~iit·.ister of ~ural :Je•telopmer.t fired by t~te Pre:':.i.ier or J.ill ::. ~ =' -:-esi~:.1?

I zot the imJ:lression ile ::_ave a le:.: ter of resi~nation, The P::-e;r:ier 'C.CH tries to sive tlle ir.i.pression ~rJpa.r.:r~tl:.r ~\·.at 0ecause o£ .=. :,•each o£ Cabinet solidarity he :1as been asked !:o t"esir,n, in ot\1er 'mrds fired. Could the Pre:nier clarify tl1at? It is very clear, i•;r. Speaker. The hon. t.lember re3i6fled his position. Thank you, Sir. T'1is is not a very joyful G69

- 3 .. ~_uty on :.1y p.a..rt. It is al~;.r..ys s~d -:-h~n a -;;ublic servant, an electecl public servant like a ::inister of: tl1e Crown, is forced to resiGn his portfolic- on :,;roU!lds of principle. I have nothing but praise for the cti.nister himself since he has chosen to resibll from his portfolio because he c:mnot live "'i::h, iJr. Speaker, he cannot live with a breach of public trust, .1 :Jree.ch of conmitnent by the government l~hich he belongs to. r-::port..:d ~·-:ords ~re c.orrect, -:~te public cotr'mit-:::1ent ::tade to the r·~ople l'f Central ~:evrfounclar1d last year that there ·.;auld ':le .:u: e~;.2.usion to a hospital in t~nt area, that cor'.mitmer..

t) Sir_. accord ins to the F!inister. 7ill r:ot 'l:e lived u::; to in t:1e forthcomin;; ~t.:dg~t, ~ud t~~ere.Eore b.e ::..us t resi;r .. is clear, Sir, to us on this side of the Ilouse, nnd to most of t!1e peopl~ of tl:<= Frovince, that t~1e prascnt goveJ::r.ment is cruwbling bE..:fore ot1r very ~yes., ma.i:lly because, "'".!­..J.L.J..' 670

March 16, 1978 Tape 233 PK - 1 MR. W. ROWE: it is a governme~t which has made his own bed, it has made promises and commitments to the people of this Province, and now, Sir, finds that promises easily made are difficult to add up to. SOME RON. Mh'MBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. gen~leman having concluded his remarks,still I feel that I should continue- l was not aware when I interrupted that: he was about to conclude- and that was with respect to

Section 91, page 84,Beauchesne, "When the minister makes a statement on govermnent policy it is now firmly established that the Leader of the Opposition or the Chi~fs of recognized groups," and in our practice spokesmen on their beh;!li,"are entitled to ask explar..ations and make a few remarks, but no debate is then allowed." Having said that,obviously the han. gentleman has completed his rt~rks. MR. fl. ROWE: I was not,as it happens, Mr. Speaker. I was not finished. I sat down because Your Honour called order. MR. SPEAKER: I misunderstood the han. gentleman.

C~vi ously I am not precluding him f ran continuing his remarks. MR. W. ROWE: For the sake of clarity, Mr. Speaker, let me alsc ask the Premier if he happens to know, although a letter might be directed to Your Honour if it were the case, if he happens to know whether that han. member intends or is resigning from the House as well, or is he staying on in the House of Assembly? I do not know, Mr. Sp~aker, That will be up to the han. meT.ber himself. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of ~he Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, one further question, if I may? Has that han. member being ~~pelled from the P.C.

Caucus by any chance, Mr. Speaker, or is he still a member of the P.C. Caucus? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: No,that has been only a habit of the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Shame! Shame! G71 i . if ' ·'

March 16, 1978 Tape 233 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Before calling the next routine order I think I should point out that the prohibition of debate with respect to Statements By Ministers is operative toward han. gentlemen to my left, and members making the statements as well. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: - I rise to beg leave to present a petition on behalf of eighty-one parents of the communities of Middle Arm, Burlingt!:>n, and Smith's Harbour in my district. And the prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, is very simple. I do not know if it is a good time to be asking for funds or not. MR. W. Rm'ffi: Better today than tomorrow. MR. RIDEOUT: Better today than tomorrow. That funds be allocated to build a new school in the Middle Arm, Burlington, Smith's Harbour area. This petition,as I said, Mr. Speaker, is signed by . eighty-one residents whose children presently attend the all-grade Pentecostal School at Middle Arm. Now the school in question, Mr. Speaker, is a very old one. It is outdated, it is over-crowded, and in fact it is totally unsatisfactory.

It is so much so, Sir, that the parents of those students are concerned not only about the educational impairment of their children but also about the physical health of the students who napp2n to be attending that old,dilapidated and run down building. The Pentecostal Assemblies School Board of Newfoundland is presently, and has been,! understand, for the last couple of years working on plans to build a new school i~ that area, be it at Middle Arm or in the centre of the area at Burlington, so:cK~,;loere in that area. But so far, Sir, the issue has been finances.

Now in view of the urgent need, in view of the state of the building itself, and in view of the impairment of physical health of those students,! would ask the Minister of Education, Mr. Speaker, if he would take a special plea on behalf of those parents to the 672

~larch 16, 1978 Tape 233 PK - 3 ~tr. Rideout: Denominational Education Committee, which I know shares out the money that this House appropriates for the building of schools every year . And, Mr. Speaker, I do not want the ~,ister co get ~P and s1o:.~ 3h i.t off on t't<! D.:::.c. That is not the inte •\t of a:be petition .

We must remembe~ that it is our money,the taxpayers' ~ooey of this Province that the D.E.C' s are spending, and some prio-.ities ought to be set up when we cave buildings that are ocviously dilapidated, obviously run down, obviously not fit for students :o attend school in, ~hen ~ome leadership and some prior~ty m~st be established , 1 would ask the minister to take that l~~d ersh ip, and to take a spec~al plea to the D.E. C' s and attempt to have money alloc~ced this year for the building of a new Pentecostal School ic Middle Arm area. SJ, Mr .

Speaker, I enthusastically and whol~heartedly Sl'pport che ?rayer of the petit i on . I commend it tc the House,ask that it be laid on the table and referred to the department to which i.t relates. SOME RON. hEMBERS: Rear, hear! G73

!1arch 16,1978 Tape No. 234 AH-1 :>JR. SPEAKER: Ron. member fo• Conception ~ay South. HR. NOLA:": Mr. Speaker, very briefly I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend and colleague to my right and in response to the - it is not the largest petition ever presented in this House of Assembly, eighty-one residents, I believe, signed it - MR. RIDEOUT: Parents. MR. NOLAN: -or eighty-one parents.

But it is significant, all the more significant perhaps because eighty-one parents may not be t:;.e grea=est polidcal arm that have ever been waved in a public assembly in this Province, but what they are doing in fact ~s speaking on behalf of the students,and we have an obligation, particularly to students in.th~s Province. We are going to- and I do not know what provision will be made in the current :Sudget 1of course,for educational capital improvements and so on in the coming year since I = not privy to the contents of tl:.e Budget.

But I do know th3t i.::, c>.s we are .informed,see fit for example to spend hugh sums of public money on,say,the extension of this building,which we are informed . . is going to happen,and many other items that will see many other public dollars spent on in the next year or two,well then surely we must,if we have any kind of priority sense at all,look to the stud~ts whc• may very well be suffering in a manner that will retard I their growth as human beings in this Province,not only now but well . ,. into tneir adult life unless we provide them with the proper educational facilities and the personnel to carry out the educational needs of t:hese people.

The people in Middle Arm are appealing to us now as l.egislators,through their member,to see t:o it that in the Budget that is brought down by the Minister of Fi&ance on Friday that provision will be there for this and so many other educational needs :hat are 8cre&ming to be \ "J.adled. hy this al11J.ini6 tration A look at any figure will tell you that during a by-election you can spend $471,000 in one district in this Province. 674

March 16,1978 Tape No. 234 AH-2 A.'i liON. l1EMBER: · Against the lalv. ~~R. NOLAN: Against the law apparently. All we are asking ~ow is to listen to the prayer of this petition, Mr. Speake~, and see that it is answered. Eight-one residents are now asking for our help. All they hear,unfortunately, sometimes through the public press, is the name callin~ that we hear in the House of Assembly.

I suppose if I were to unleash a personal attack on. the Minister of Education now I would no doubt make headlines tonight and perhaps tomorrow. '!his is some kind of an indication of the sign of our t~es~ b·.1t what I 3ll1 saying is that I hope that t!lis petition will rec.eive the attention and hopefully the funds that it deserves in the coming Budget on Friday and that our friend,the new Minister of Finance,who is noted for his kindness, generosity and public spirited awareness as has been demonstrated by his leadership and Justice in t~is Provioce - God help me! - will be s hmm "i' i n the budget on Friday.

So we certainly support this petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF~~: Ron. member for Terra Nove. ~m. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I stand to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague. I can appreciate the concerns of the people on whose behalf he has presente1 the petition. Too many schools, Sir, in rural Newfoundland in particular are inadequate today in terms of modern day education,lacking the modern conveniences and the modern facilities that students 675

:1arch !6, 1978 Tape 235 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: should have in 1970, lacking facilities that result in an inferior education. So I have no hesitation at all in wholeheartedly supporting this petition - HR. :TEARY: Rear, hear! MR. LUSH: - knowing quite 'well that there are schools in my own district that suffer from the same inadequacies, in Eastport, Port Blandford and Musgravetown.

And I would urge the minister rather than go to the DEC's, to ~o to Cabinet and ask if we cannot change the structure of the way that funds are allocated for capital expenditures for building of school buildings, I think a formula that goes up to J.9fl0 rnthout any increases at all, which means the money that education school boards are getting torlay to build schools have a dollar value of back to ::en years ago. flo I would ask the minister to go to hi~ Cabin·~t and see if ~~e cannot change that structure of financing education for school construction. SOME RON. MEH.BERS : Hear, hear! HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. ~!inister of Mines and Energy followed by the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. "'R. PEC:KFOP.D: - - Mr. Speaker, I should like to go on record as fully supporting the petition just presented by the hon. member for Baie Verte - Hhite Bay (Mr. Rideout). I am pretty familiar trlth the communities of Middle Arm, Burlington and Smiths Harbour and can confirm that the prayer of the petition ~nd the remarks by the hon. n~eml"-•;r are very, very vaiid.

The preserrt school structure in Middle ;.:-m is antiquated, worn 011t, and there is a dire need for a new school building in that area - absolutely no question. I t~ould even go so far as to say tbat of the many areas that I have visited around the Province in the last year cr sc perhaps the Middle Arm/Burlington/SmithG Harbour area is in ~re need of a school structure than some of the other areas .I t. " that have been badgering their school boards and their politicians in government for such buildings. It is badly needed in that area.

I would suggest to the hon. member that it be considered by the residents 676

~!arch 16, 1978 Tape 235 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: of the area that the new school buildi~g ~o in Burlington rather than in ~liddle Arm, because Burlington is the co~nity that is in the center of the three - there is Smiths Harbour to the North and then Burlington and then eo the South, Middle Arm. That area, Mr. Speaker, is perhaps not as ~vell known as many other areas of the Province. It is on the North Shore e>f Green Bay on part of the Baie Verte Peninsula and the road that leads from the Baie Verte highway goes down to just those three co~unities.

And it is not near some of the larger ceneres like LaScie,and some of ehe s~aller communiti~s near LaScie get services because they are near larger centres and have a major fishing facility there. Suffice it to say, Mr.

Speaker, that the people of that area are very hardworking fishermen, a very vibrant logging and pulptvood operation is going ahead there at the present time, and the people there, I am sure, would be delighted ~o . find out in the next year or so - the Pentecostal School Board with its headquarters in Windsor, in consultation tvi th the DEC, with the s~pathetic naggling by the Minister of Education - would be glad to see a neu school building be committed to that area within the next year or so, and I fully support the prayer of the petition and the rem~rks made by the han. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. ..q>,.

SPEA.X!':R: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans • "fR • FL IGlr. : Hr. Speaker, I would like to su•>po rt t~e petition so ably presented by my colleague. And I rise in self- sym1lathy, Mr. Speaker. One of the first things that I did as a member of this hon. House was to present a petition to the present minister on behalf of the people of Badger, a town situated right on the Trans-Canada Highway, a town whose children are being bused to Grand Falls, a distance of seventeen miles. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when I presented the petition, the prayer of the petition was to ask that the school busing syseem as they knew it be discontinued, be stopped, and that high schools be built in the town of Badger. And I expected that petition to be supported by some people, but the fact is. Hr. Speaker. that practically 677

:rarci1 16, 1~78 Tape 235 EC - 3 ev~rybody in the Rouse of Assembly, as Your Honour will remember, supported that petition. The minister got up and waxed eloquent as to how he belie ved the schools should be built, that tl".e l".overnment of Newfoll!ldland shocld use so1::e of the S2SO million, the ?ne - third of th'! provincial budget, the y should have some say as to how the funds were allocated and spent. !~r. Speaker, that was two years ago.

Shortly after, I drew to t he ~jnister's attention that the children of another community in Newfoundl2.nd, lluchans Junction, were being bused twenty-one miles - kindergarten children leaving ho~.e at eight o'clock in the MOrninst, ! ~aving home before li~t and Frriving home after dark. And he go t ur and was surprised end cor.nnitted himself to look into the situation. NR . SPEAKER: Order, please ~ I shoulc point out to I ! .1 J G78

Tape 2J6 ;--. , • l the han. gentlemen that a reference ta ~ an analogous situation in some other community for the point of vie1·1 of comparism tiOUld certainly fall within, in ~.Y opinion,_ the ambit of the ~ tanding D_derc;, but the han. gentlemen will recall that after his first sentence he :1as really addressed himself to a petition of twCI years ~enc:= '.lith resrect to a different scilo::J1 in a different area.So I ~auld ask the han. g entle~en to confine his remarks to the material allegation of the petition. Han .rn:=:nber of :!i ndsor - llLrchan 's. '1R.

FLIGHT: Thank you, Your Honor. \iell, Sir, I need not refer to th~ previo~s petitions,I would refer to the situat1on as it exists. This mJy apoear to be tongue-1~-cheek, it may appear to be facetio•Js,but there is "one department of gov~rnment in t~is Province that concede we c~uld do ~Ji thout, In two and a half years as a member ~ith all the problems that I have~had presented to one with regard to a lack. in the Department of Education have not be·::n ab1 e~ not once been able to have gone to the Depart~ent of Education in this building and to have got a situation str~ightened out.

I have been told time and time agai~ it is either DEC's - Mr. Soeaker, a poi~t of order. ~lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, p1ease! Actually the Chair intervened and the han. gentleman ~ at the same ti~e. !1Y understanding is that a point of order rr:ay-·be made at anj time except du~ing a'di~iiion or ~hen ~he-thiir-is giving I I a ruling. So having said Qrder myself think the rules would suggest that I make my ruling and then if the han. gentleman's point is a different one obviously he may well go ahead. 679 I I . ! • F I~ \f

·1arc i1 16 , 1 978 Tare 236 ov; - 2 r'R. SPEAKER: I will ~oint out to the ~on. gentleman to my right that he is no~ g~tting into really an area of debate on the policy of the Department of Educa- tion and this would not be permitted at this particular cim~. Hon. member. '!R . FLI GHT : Than~· you. :'r.

Spe3.ker. ·,Jel .l ~ Sir, I _will simolv end my remarks and my sup?ort by askina ~~e ministe~ if in dealing with the orayer of that petition ,: .- because 1~e all know that in order to deal with the crayer of that peti­ tion 'the structure of the Department of Education,as the hon. member for Terra Nova pointed out,has to be changed,: the minister has got to be given some authority as to how the funds in the Department of E1ucation jre soent? A~d so, Sir, I would suggest that the minister,~nless he is prepared to tackle that basic problem,will not be able to assist or to answer the prayer of the petition.

Sir, the petition clear:y ask;; _ for a school in ~Iiddle Arm,and a school cannot be built in Middle arm unless the minist~r is prepared to take on the DEC's and call the shots on how the money in the Department of Education is spent: At tr.is point that they are not doing that. I whole-heartedly support the petition. "'12 . SP5AKER: Hon.Minister of Education. ------ 'II~ . I!OUSE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to spea ~ a few 1·1ords to the petition. The petition asks that the :1inister of Education or the government allocate funds for a school in Middle Arm.

I have exolained this before,that we have a comr.litment to -:;-the Denominational Education Committee for a oerioc of ten years,giving an amount of money, I believe in the past year it was something in the vicinity of $14 million,·- - it escalates a million dollars a year for the next couple of years and levels off and that carries on until about 1~33. 680 i\

!~arch 16, 1973 Tane J ~I - 3 '~P.. HOUSE: The Denominational Education Committees then, of cJurse~9et this money on a oer capita basis for the denominations represented and priorize and determine where schools are going to built. Under the present legislation,and I guess under ~he acts that we cam2 into Confederation with,it is pretty difficult to change that,if we want to change it,beca~se they have their responsibility for building schools and we supply funds to tilem.So right now at the present time no governr~ent, whether it is this one or the past one,can allocate moneys for a school.

The moneys are allocated throuqh the Denomina- tionc·.l Education Co~1mittee, r-Jo 1~ in this oarticular case it i1appens to be the Pentecostal DEC. Thev have one boarc throughout the Province and they llave a list of the schools that they have, .a piio~iz~i list. ~n~ T ~" nnt knnw exactly where the Middle Arm school stands •. C~rtainly I will discuss it with the pertinent DEC. ~~R. SPEAKER: Han. member of Bay d'Espoir. ~1R.SirHI!ONS: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to rise and give my support to the petition.

I was not very sure whether the minister had supported the petition or not • ,_ t1 e d i d n 9 t s a v so • and he or n h" :-, 1 v ~ :-, n u 1 r1 n n t. h P ~ n P"' k-i n n in this instance, Mr. Speaker, if he is not speaking in suroort of a. petition. rtr. S;Jc:aker, just to clarifv- ou do not understand the system. t:R. SH1t10NS: We understand, it is the minister we are concerned about, Mr.Speaker.

Just tp clarify a point made by the i1inister of t~ines and Energy a moment ago, the bulk of students of this particular denomination are resident in • t~'!ddle .ll.rm rather than in Curlin~ton, and the lof)ical olace to have the s c h o o 1 i s vr here they h ave i t r i rJ h t no vr , i n r • i d d 1 e ll, m . C u t , o f co u r s e • t }1 a t i s a c' e c i s i o n f o r t !1 e :n tc. 171 a 1: e . ~- n u 11 b e r o F the students in 3urlinoton are of the inter~rated group and there 681

'ia rch 16, 1978 Tape 236 · 011 - 4 :1R. S Iii:JONS : in the case of elementary school in Burlington-or in the case of high school,bused into Gaic Verte. t1r. Speaker ., in risino to support the petition I '.:auld just like to appeal to the 1dniqer, t . - GG2

March 16, 1978, Tape 237, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: being the day before budget day,to ensure - as I am sure he already has done so - that there is an adequate capital amount in the Budget, the budgetary conditions as they relate to education, to take care of the increasing needs of the various school boards, to erect the schools'and to affe~t the necessary renovations and improvements. Now he more than anybody else in this House,as a former superint~ndent of education who fcught this cause long and hard,ought to be aware of the increasing capital requirements.

I have no dispute with the way the mo~eys are being allocated. That is not the problem the DEC's are having, Mr. Speaker. They have no dispute with the way_ the fu:J.cls are being allocated; their problem is that they cannot get the funds to allocate. They cann_ot get the funds to allocate for this purpose and that is where the buck stops very much with the minister and I would hope he will reflect the concern he had in his former office as a superintendent of education and see that the increased amounts are embodied in the budget document tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of fifty-six residents of the community of Hopedale. '!'his is one of a series of petitions which I have received over the Winter concerning the service on the Labrador coast, the whole Labrador coast as far as transportation is concerned, with the Twin Otter service during the Summer which we had inaugrated last year for the first time. Since I have a series of them and I could present them at other t~es, I will try to keep my anger for further petitions and at the moment try to present just as coolly as possible some of the facts 683

March 16, 1978, Tape 237, Page 2 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: which face us in support of this petition. We are talking about aircraft at the moment which are giving a service to the Labrador coast, single engined Otter aircraft which can only fly under VFR rules, that is visual flying rules, not under instrument flying rules. These single engine aircraft, and I do not mean to defend Labrador Airways by any means at the moment, but these aircraft were stopped production of in the late 1950's. It is impossible to get any new aircraft ever since the late 1950's.

Most of the aircraft used on the Labrador coast were built in 1949 to 1953. These aircraft are now old, inadequate, in many cases you could say falling apart, but virtually because there are no spare parts to be obtained anywhere - they are no longer being manfactured - the only way you .can get spare parts is to take apart another aircraft and use it for spare parts. This is the kind of service that the people on the Labrador coast are subjected to and what they are petitioning for is a Twin Otter service which was tried last year.

And why we are going for Twin Otter is that the Twin Otter aircraft is the only aircraft which is of use in theArcticor the North. It opened up the Northwest Territories. Since it can land in a very short space and it has a long wing span it can therefore withstand the conditions and the shocks cf landing,certainly on the sea if on floats, or on the ice if on skiis. So what we are asking for is an extension of a subsidy since the Twin Otter aircraft is an extremely expenive aircraft to operate.

The population on L~e Labrador coast does not warrant some of the •' expenses and the costs incurred by that kind of aircraft. You cannot fly Queen Airs into some of the communities, we do not have the airstrip 684 :~

March 16, 1978, Tape 237, Page 3 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: length, you need at least 3,000 feet, probably 3,500. On some of the airstrips already built we are looking at ~500 or 2,700 feet, 3,000 is the maximum. A Twin Otter is the only ai~craft which can land on the airstrips, a Twin Otter is the only one which can be used during the Summer on floats. So what \·re are asking for here then is a continuation or a subsidy to assist the comp2.ny, or whatever company, regardless of what company it is, co allow the Twin Otter aircraft, the only safe aircraft,to come back on the Labrador coast and provide a service.

As long as we are going to continue to use the single e!lgine aircraft we are goL1c; to be freezing cold, suffering from air crashes. I car' forecast we will have more and more. I myself have been dcwn a number of times. I think almost everyone who has been on the coast and has travelled in those aircraft has been down,or stuck in places a I. nunmer of times, and this will continue as long as we I use these single engine aircraft.

I must commend the bush pilots of the North, the Joe Gibbonses, the Ian Masseys, and the Mike Burnses, the Bill Eatons, who have been flying under terrible, terrible conditions for years c.nd years, subjected to m'.lch criticism which they do not warrant because they cannot upgrade nor change unless they get the new aircraft. I hope that the minister will respond to this in a favourable light and see that we get a Twin Otter service during this Summer. SOME HON. MEl.ffiERS : Hear, hear! . f . I 685

March 16,1978 Tape No. 238 AH-1 MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table this and refer it to the department ~o which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Naskaupi. HR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to take a moment or so to add my support to the petition presented by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). I WaB one of the people on the inaugural flight last Summer of the Twin Otter when it was converted for float use on the coast.

On that day we flew from Goose Bay to Makkovik to Cartwright to I think Charlotteto~ , Mary's Harbour an~ back to Goose Bay in a period of somet:hing like six hours, and that I think normally would take probably two or three days by the single Otter or single Beaver service. I have also flown that coast when it has been thirty and thirty-five degrees below zerc in the cabin of the rE•gular ; the outdated Beaver aircraft.

I think that the Twin Otter service can provide an invaluable service to the coast in te~s of moving of passengers, moving of freight, etc.,an~ if it all we nead is a subsidy or t~e extension of a subsidy to bring that type of service into opera~ion while airstrips are being built at various communities along the coast then I think it should be done. I support the prayer of the peti:ion. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. members have spoken, tne megber for Naskaupi(Mr.

Goudie) and the member for Eagle River (Mr.Strach~) my colleague who presented the petition in the first place ha~e already stated articulat~ly and in a saccint fashion the need for this extension of a subsidy for the Twin 6tter service on the coast of Labrador so I will very briefly merely add my voice of support to the petition. I have not spent the time on the coast that the hon. member opposite has or my c~lleague the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) put I have spent same time flying up and down 686 ··- I I' I ~ ,; . ~

Marcil 16,1978 Tape No, 238 AH-2 liiR. W. ROWE: the Labrador coast, Sir, and the demands of safety alone, Mr. Speaker, require that this subsidy be extended and that the Twin Otter service be renewed, put into effect year round for the service of people ou that coast. Weather conditions alone, Sir, also demand it. My hon. friend the member for Eagle River(Ur.Strachan) was stranded in his home attempting to get to the House of Assembly for some eigh~ to ten days because of weather conditions which are not unusual or unknown in the area of Nain.

I understand, Sir, without being an expert that if there had been a Twin Otter service in effect the delay wo~d not have been nearly as long. I mearly point to that fact not because I hold and brief for the hon. member and his desire to get back and forth but if this happens to him then it happens to residents on the coast on a regular basis.

And, Sir, without going into any of the other reasons for having this extension of a subsidy to get a Twin Otter service on the coast of Labrador these two matters alone demand that this petition be given a sympathetic hearing by the Minister of Transportation and hopefully the Budget will bring down enough money to allow the Twin Otter service so that safety and weather conditions will no longer be the problem that they have been on the coast of Labrador as far as air transportation has been concerned, Mr. Speaker.

I take great pleasure, Sir, in supporting this petition and commending it to the hon, minister. illl.. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker. The hon. minister followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, it is not too often I get up to support petitions but in this instance I think it. is a petition that certainly warrants the support of this House, 1t should be given every consideration. lfe spoke yesterday about a resolution on Labrador, I mentioned to scme great length the problems of transportation. 687 ! I • I . ~ f '· t: 4

M rc n lo, l9 7b '1'ape , o. 238 AH- 3 Ia l'1R. ROUSSEAU: These single engine aircraft are not the best venicle in tne world for transportation and provide some of tue hazar _ds as ment.ionee1 by the previous speakers but I do wish to st<m.d and fully support the pe·tition. I hope that something can be ,done in the future to make the air · service and transportation syst~ along the coast of Labrador a much better one than it now is. MR • . SP~R: Ron. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by my hon. colleague :he member for Eagie Rive -r (Mr.

St-::~chan) an beil.al.f of fifty-six of his constituents in :he c:oDIIJl~ity of Hopedale. I understand from my hon. colleague that there will be other petitions following requesting improvements in the air service in ~orthern Labrador. Mr. Speaker, in supporting the prayer of the pet.ition I want to pay tribute, Sir, to Bert Patey, Mr. Furey - What is Furey's first name? George. t. J ! '· 688

Tnpe ::o. 239 :rr. Jl3rt Patey ~.tl ::r. Geor~e Eurey anU the pilots and the ground crew that work for Labrador Ain-;ays. TLtey are doing a fantasti::. job, Sir, a tremendous job unC.er very ciffict'lt circu:=~stances to supply the people in 11oth :>orthern and Southern Labrador wit:t air services, which is concernel. It is tl'e o:tly >my that you can zet in and out of tl,ese cor..muniti~s,apart fro'!! the slm.- co2stal 0oat service i:1 t:v~ Sun.rJJ.ertime. It i.s their hi:;h·va.yJ ~ ·fr. Speaker.

T1:.12:y vrill ;1ever :tave a Trans-CauaJa IIi;;;~n;ay in ?!iort:lerr_ Labrador in our lifeti::le, and li·'iybe in our childrer.' s lifet:_.rne. There L; no way. So the people will ~ave to depend on air ser~ice &nd the air service t~c:.t is prese:1tly be in~ I_)roviUG.\-l by Labraior :".ir ... ·-9.ys, under very Jifficult ::.ircuiiiStar..ces, involved the use of Eiu~la eng::Tle aircraft t:;.nt are only hein:; used, as I understan'~ it .:1t t:1e pres2nt timeJ in ~~ewfoundland. :~owhere else in Canada are. single en~:!.ne ai~craft being used to trar..sport ;assen3crs bac!~ and forth.

They are considered in o.ther parts of Canada I to be unsafe, as my hon. colleague, the Lead2r of the Opposition, ,, 1: point~d out. And I think from this stanc!po in t alone, Sir, t!te :iinistcr of Tr~nsportation should approve this subsidy, which is not very much. '·!hat are <{e talking about, ::r. Spenker, i-:1 the uay of a sul,sidy? 11e are tal~~ in;; ,r halieve,abo:.lt $50, 'JOO or :)6'J ,000. No . ~!.? .• '11::_\!.\Y: No? Here th ~n that, are t\'"e t:llki::.g al.;out $70,000? :::.:t. DOODY: ::ore th= that. ~IR. :lEA;?.Y: Are we talking about $HJO ,000. . r A '.:lit more. HR.

NE..\I'.Y: Less than that? !1orc than that or less th:m t!!at? Do I hear Sll0 .00 0? 689 r. J

''~:::ci1 16, 1978 T! -· 2 Do I hear Sllo,r~o? :~R. DOCJ'JY: Gettin;; ·;ar::t. One million ~ol:a~s? '!r. Sp.e.al::.er, :1ow c.a .. 1. you put value on ~1uu:ar.. lifa? Ani if we are talking about a subsidy vf $12C,QCO, Sir, $ll5,CJC, $120,000, a:-~d Soutl1ern Lab::rador are no~ moving bacl~ o.:td forth :.Jore .so t:12.n iwo-;r if l::.f :o.on. f::-i~nc.!s realize it or not,but zctciub cut of .l B.:: .. P..-~r aircrn.Et, Jr a C~s::;na, ..J.nd settirlJ i:1to a ~~1in :Jtter i,; l..:..: .. e. sct!:i:t.; uut of a T/oll..:3~;as;on into a Cadillac, o::- into the :'r~J:.i:::::'s Lincoln Continental.

And I believe, Sir, that -· ::n. .. F. ~O~:Z; Or your Ra!:lbit. It is like getting out of T.Y ~bbit into tJ:e :'J·cnier' s Lincol:1 Continent::U.. '3ut t:1is is a very reasonable request, ~Ir~ ~pt:ali:.er, anU I do hope t~1.at t:~e new ~.in.ist~r of !rnnsportation and Communciations will give lt favourable CO!lSi~erution.

Tl1e deposed ninister refused to carry on that service ~fter tae experiment~l stage. ?;,e peo~le were very I had an occasion ~o go to ;-lortr ern Labrador shortly after the service uas discontinued, As a matter of fact I :1aJ t:.~ ;?rivile;,;e uf spe:J.ki!'.;:_ a.t tl:e firs~ sit-do,,m political ban'juet in 3ortltera Labrador, i1eld in the co=unity of Nain, back in Oct:ober. And one of tf!e points t:1at I stressed at that banquet, Sir, is that I ~1ould go back to St. Joht~ ',; and I would go on tlte floor of the - ' 690

- 3 :!F.. :. :::iJtY : !iouse cf .\sse::bly in t he ::e:.-c s :. ::tins of the :iousl' an<! I l:o:.tlc f::.gut tooth nucl ~;L!. to tty to :;~t a !:tin Ot t e r service :or t:.he people i n :~o rt i1c::n and So~.:thern L=.:·racior . Sm:E UON. :::;::.:;;;?S: :l\ . SP:..\:C:t:. ror :azle :'.i\•er (~tr . Stra : hsn) . I l!pen t ·. :air 3IIIOU'\~ ?t time La!> ra~or CO:lllt, ju~ t out of t he St rsi ts am! t he >:ar; •-.

"ari> cur ! '·.:!"e trava~ec th:!t :·;cole coc::>tlin e in .;oaJ.l !.>oat ;.:ys&l! on ;;ur<C!l:'e>us occosto ns, as :~ nat ter of :act, nne! 1 kno:~ t.:he l:in d.s of tran S;>O!:Catlor. pr oblems th:!C the pe<Jple t h ere hav'! a~t: r.er.ce You know, tbere are a lot of people, especially in Sout:1crn Labrador, ! guess i t is also true of sol:'.c a r~as sti.i.l !.n :icrt::er!\ L:I !:Ir acor ~ •·iiler e they !.ave t ~'O hou:es aru! t !:e trar • .::;po::t "ltion Jiff i cult ies to uove faui ly and enouz ll :;oods ;;:-.d services to l:eep them going f rom inlo:md in t he :,ay, in :::!r-J ' s ifz.rbour, out to Ba ttle 'tarbour or }'nttis Cove, o r 1.nto InC:ion !!ari>ollr or out ::o 691

March 16, 1978 Tape 240 PK - 1 ~JR. PECKFORD: Lodge Bay, or out to Square Islands from Charlottetown, or out to Port Hope Simpson to Sandy Hook or William's Harbour or George's Cove are pretty immense. And, you know, any transportation improvement in the way of a Twin Otter is highly favourable to the people who live on that shore.

They have many, many problems to contend with, and if one even looks at trying to put a road around some of the little harbours in those communities,that is a major, major undertaking because of the rock that a contractor or anybody else or council has to contend with it is almost impossible, Hence this improved service of a Twin Otter is highly favourable achievement, and I hope we can see rit, the government can see fit to improve the service there to ensure that when the new strips are built this whole Twin Otter service will be fully operational to give at least the residents of the Labrador Coast that swift and efficient system to make them feel that much more a ~art of the whole Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few comments on the petition. Last year the cost to the taxpayers of subsidizing the service,which is a very much needed service,in regards to transportation to the Coast of Labrador, the Northern Coast of Labrador, was in the vicinity of $180,000 paid to the only licenced carrier on the coast, in this case Labrador Airways,issued licences by CTC in Ottawa.

I understand now that a second carrier will be moving into the area in the very near future with a carrier service, only a chartered service, but the present service by Labrador Airways is a scheduled ajrfare service, which means that there could be over the next couple of years - and I say hopefully;competition is always good in my view-that there will be a third carrier apply for a licence on the Coast of Labrador.

The fact is that it is the individual choice of the carrier, the licenced carrier on the coaat as to what type of service he wants to implement, in this case Labrador Airways last year,on an experimental basis, brought in a Twin Otter aircraft,not subsidized by the Newfound!and taxpayers, on their own in{tiative, and a good move, to thest out the service 692

March 16, 1978 Tape 240 PK - 2 Mr. Morgan: and to find out the satisfaction of the service to the residents concerned. Naturally and quite obviously the satisfaction was quite good, it was welcomed by the residents, a good service, and Labrador Airways is now asking for, I understanQ, a petition, a subsidization of that type of service. It is obvious that the residents will want an improved service. They have seen the Twin Otter. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I know the hon. gentleman, Sir, would like to ~ave his remarks go on the record of the House correct. And the hon. gentleman just made a statement that Labrador Airways were asking for this service. No,it is not Labrador Airways, Mr. Speaker, It is the people in Northern Labrador. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well there is a distinction. My hon. friend is not lobbying, he is not lobbying for Labrador Airways. My hon. friend is lobbying on behalf of his constituents, and - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - there is a great distinction, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! ·There is no point of order before the Chair. 'j'· ;. 1 MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the fact is last year that the only l ~ carrier, in this case Labrador Airways,brought into service this kind of Twin Otter aircraft aervice and it was found to be satisfactory by the residents on the coast, and now the residents are asking for that type of service to be brought in by the same carrier. There is only one carrier licenced to do that kind of service on the coast, that is I . Labrador Airways. What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that we would I* .IL I ~ ' welcome - SOME RON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! I ~ ... '{ G93

Mat:ch 16, 1978 Tape 240 l'K - 3 " The only cart:ier, Mr. Speaker, is Labrador Airways that can supply che kind of ser~ice. !t is t:he only licenced cat:rier on che coast that can supply a scheduled airct:aft servi ce, a scheauled airfare s~ice on the coast. The ochet: one is d icence nO\.' issE;d to G.ander Aviation co carey out a chartered service on the coast, a difference, a big difference . -" 694

Tape. :Jo. 2!;.1 l ~:r. Speaker, c=:.~l ·J= us on this side I am sure would agree that 1-1e would like to see an i1:1proved transportation service to tte Coast of ~abrader. The fact is ~:hat we c:.:-:e now paying out $180,000 in subsidy to that one carrier, Labrador Airways. If a secand or th±rd carrier moves in it is obvious to me that they ~7ill ·.·ant •subsidization as cmll. There are a nu:::ber of questions that rc1:1ain unans"ercd but I am sure that ::ty c.')llea,;ue, the l'!ir.ister of T,;rill ::12.l:e every att(;.m?t as 3. governn~ent to su;ply ~ satisf<J.cto:-y tr:msportation service.

Ilut fortunately last 3'c.:>.r 'le were successful o..s a goverr~ent in nesoti.:J.tin~ '=_,.it~ the =ederal .::;cvernrilG:::~ a na~cr c=~.irstri,~ development }lroLrc:t:.;-r::.te for L.:=..Lr.J.2or. 'rLle situation is, :rr. Speaker, if the ho~-nob.3 would keep quiat over t~ere,~r. Spea~eJ:: the situ<1tion I; I is '.vit:: the aew aiz:strips and the efforts of botl-. gover=ents co:nbi;.;.~d :;e look forward to an i:-Jproved transporl:a.tion s2rvice aircraft ,;ise to the Coast of Labrador. " ., ~ so:m ac·N. J:JE:mr::Rs: llear, !.ear !

The hon. ~I.inister of Trnnsportatior. aDC: :o1.l.E.unic£1tions . :rr. 3peakar, :lnJ.C:!_lSto=ed .1.s I am to public cor...,.~c~~r~.t and c~p::..ble p=eC:ecessor I have to, in all l.~.or..esty ..=.nd. t\1e air service on tlte Coast of Labrauor. ~ve re:1lize how important· i!: is. \ve also realize cf course that there is a cost element involvG:d. Ti1e competitive aspect that the ~·!inister of Tourism has raised is certainly one that \qe have to keep in mind. Nevertheless ''e are f:..tlly aw·are of the problem. He kno"' the advanta;;es of the Otter as 695

o97G : :R. DOOJY: of travellin~ in ~otn to have k..rtown people, Sir, close friends of many of us i1ere in t~is hon.

J:ouse, ~•ho have been killed in ue:lav:.lland 125' s' so I clo not really think that necessarily means t:1at w-e arc going to eli!J.inate air accidents by c~1aneing the aircraft. to e ... ·.:awi.!.l-:! t~1~ v.r~l.ole thing i .. 1 the cont:~:t of the funds t:1at i:lr2icat=d that ·~e ltas se,eral other petiti.ons cot.ti.~g behind it. ~'e Hill clo everythb.;; that 1.re ;1ossibly can 1J"it:!in t!:e lir:tits of the fimmcin;;; ability of t!H~ ?Tovince t,, su;:>ply t;1e best possible service •·le can for the people on the Co<>.st.

T;:.e :~on . .:li:1is ter of Ju~;:::.ce. ::r. 3psa: .. er, I taJle 3t--8eial ,;arrar .. ts for t:H~ t~ast year \vhic:~ \-.'ill ::,~ of gre2.t interest. Iti there a ilig increase in t!1em? I _I l)h no! ~f:Ul I have to resign? There are quite a fe,.·: mo:-~ than last :re.:J.r. No. :1o. There are seven copies in ease :1on. ;;entleuen t:wught there Here se"<.7 en files full. The ~on. :~tinister of 'C1uc:_tio~. I ·oish to table departmental regulations, of ::onies, The >!e!lcrial Hniver~ity Cur!aci.u Pen;.; ion Plan r:.et;~llut:lons l anci l..11~ Local Scl~ool T.:~~.: }_Mentitteot ?..e::;ulations.

The :,.on. ':..~ader of t1H; 'J;lpos.itlon. ~!R. H".N. l'.OHE: Than:: you~ Sir . 696

~" arc h 16 , 1 978 Tape 242 EC - 1 !1R. W. ~T • ROWE : A question for the Premier, Nr. Sp~aker. In order to clear up the confusion now existing in the public mind as a result of statements made by a ~ertain fo~~r minister, Mr. Speaker, would the Premier now confirm or de~y for the House reports of the former ~inister of Rural Development that the extension to the Grand Falls hospital is not going ahead in this financial year? MR. SPEAKER; The han. the Premier.

PREMIEP, :-fOORES: 11r, Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition well knows that with the Budget coming dolvn to~orrow, that is a matter that is dealt with in the Budget and certainly t·~ere will be no confirmation from me one way or the other until that document has been tabled by the ~Unist.or of Finance in this House. SOl·!E RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh: ~ • T~ . N • ROl·IE : !1r. Speaker, a supplementary • NR . SPEAT<ER: A supplementary. ' !R. Tv. N. P,OHE: I am well acquainted with the constitution, Mr. Speaker.

It was the Premier's colleague, the. lfinister of Rural Development,who saw fit to give this informatio~ out publicly , and I wanted merely to clear up the confusion that exists in the public mind. This government is not unprecedented in giving out information hefore the Budget, ~y the way, Sir. Well, Sir, a supplementary nn that question concerning extensions of buildings generally.

Will the Premier indicate to the House whether there exists an Order-in-G~uncil or a Minute of Council or any form of Ca~inet aprroval as to the extension of this Confederation Building or the building of an entirely new Confederation Building? SOlfE HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ~. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all, Hinutes of Councils are,as the hon. member once again well k-nows, confidential documents, but I will say that there is no agreement at this time for the expansion of this building. It is something that has been contemplated 697 I -i i ,_. ! (-.

March 16, 19 78 Tape 242 EC - 2 PREMIER MOORES: bv the government for a period of time and it still is. And when it is ready to be announced, if it is, it will be so done, but ~t the present time there is no undertaking, nor any commitment to build such a building. MR. NOLAN: A s•~pplementary, ¥r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South, a supplementary. 1-!R. C'!OLAN: In reference to the question addressed by the hon. the Leader of c:~e Opposition.

The Premier in the last session o~ the one before, in answer to a question, in fact, from me, as will be pointed out in the Hansard I asked if a committee of this House coulrl be appoint~d to 1-:Jok into c:~e need for additional space for civil servar .. ts.

The Premier at tnat c:ime his ans,var, and I am subject to correct :ton, was that it seemed like a very good idea and that ~e would certainly consider it and look into the possibility of setting up a committee from all sides of this House to study the need for additional space for the Civil Service, the various boards and so on, so that you would not be into the kerfluffle that occurred before on th@ possible extension of I· this building. I am wondering what the Premier's current position is on that matter? MR. SPEAY.ER: The hon. the Premier. PREI'HER MOvRES: The fact is, Mr.

Speak~r, we had a full repc:•-rt done by a group in conjunction with the federc:.l government and ours~:ves as to what office space was needed, which was the most ecorcomic way for it to be carried out. We are study in~ chat particular document. I am still not .,pposed to the idea of a committee as such to sit do•"''l and look at the final ramifications of such a report. It is the sort of thing that, in my opinion, gets badly out of proportion sometimes politically, and if that would help the situation and make government more efficient we vmuld be glad to do it. MR.

SPEAKER : ~e hon. member for LaPoile followed t -;. by the hon. gentleman from Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. 698

!'arch 16, 197 8 Tape 242 F.C - 3 }1r. Speaker, in the matter of construction of the three hospitals that have been promised in the Province, the one at Clare~ville, the one at Channel - ~art aux Basques and the one on the Burin Peninsula,and the extension to the hospital in Grand ealls, would the Premier indicate to the House if it is possible to renegotiate with the Government of Canada the agreements that were recently negotiat~d for Tourism and the government's supporting a golf course for Terra Nova?

Is it possible to divert this money, to renegotiate these agreements with the Government of Canada to get this money to be used to construct and expand hospitals - A.~ RON. ~ER: (Inaudible) 'fR. NEARY: Yes, ~r. Speaker~ is it possible to rearrange their priorities so that the go,1ernment of this Province can renegotiate with the Government of Canada to have this money,instead of being spent on billboards and tourist chalets and on golf courses, be used to construct hospitals and expand the hospital at Grand Falls? MR. W. N. ROWE: Hear, hear! A good question! PRnUER ~100RES : ~!r.

Speaker, the hon. member missed also the need for the expansion of the hospital at Placentia, I think, the one at Bonavista, the Janeway Hospital,which critically needs help, the Grace ilospital,which certainly needs help as well, You know, there is still a great need for acute bed hospitals, but regarding the qu.estion in federal - Al'< RON • }JDffiER: (Inaudible) PFH'IER 'JI'OORES : Are you answering the question? AN RON. II~~ER: I am asking one. to/hat is the Premier doing - PREXIER MOORES: It is amazing to me, Mr.

Speaker, he cannot even wait to ask this question, I mean, and well, any-way we will not comment on that. But the fact is that the federal government just last year went out of the cost sharing of hospital operation and capital so I hardly would expect that they would start opening up any arrangement 699 ~~ . . ,

Harch 16, 19 78 t;C - t. PREMIER MOORES: now for the construction of hospitals. The answer is we have talked to th.e federal government, we talked to them when they got out of cost sharing. They searted the health programme, they started ho~ital cost sharing with the Pro~4nce and once it was established they have decided that that is no longer the method they want to go. And as the bon. Rouse knows, it is now in the fol:111 of block funding based on indexing. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. 700 - ~ {. !

March 16, 1978 Tape 243 PK- 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the han. Premier aware that "here is money in various departments in Ottawa, in DREE, and so forth, looking for programmes, ami that in negotiating with the Government ~f Canada, for instance, for the Tourist De-velopment Prcgr=e that seems to be an awful waste of taxpayer.s money, and the golf coGrse and S'J forth, and the Government of C.omada looking' for j.Jb creation programmes, Mr.

Speaker, acrl Premier Lougheed the oth~r Jay stating publicly that this is the year to build r.ospitals", does the Premier not think that this gover:Jment could .:onvince tne Government of c~nada that instead of wasting their money on foolish projects, Canada Works anC. that sort of ching, thc.t the n:oney could be used to look after the health of our people by construcing new hospitals and ~zpanding the hospitals that are now brusting at the seams~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOOE.ES: Mr.

Speaker, I agrae "ith the hon. member ''hen he says a lot of the Canada Works monies are not a priority in the manner they are spen". I also agree with him when he says that such things as golf courses, which the federal goyernment themselves took as part of their arrangement for parks.are not of the top priority either. But I do not agree with him in any way when ha says there is DREE money lying a:_oundjwaiting for application for spending. We have several agreements before DREE now. We have had them there for several months, and the fact is - that they are based on resource development.

They are based on the development of the Province with an economic background. And far from the sort of waste the hon. member refers to,to say that there is money avc.ilable just for application is misleading this House in the worst manner, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman in his answer to me, Sir, indicated there are a number of agreements now waiting to be signed by DREE and so forth. Now it is a matter of priorities, Mr. Speaker, 701 . t t I. i I i

March ~6, 1978 Tape 243 PK - 2 Would the Premier indicate the kind of agreements that are waiting to be signed by DREE and various other government depa"~ents? Should they rate top pri~rity over the health of our p2ople? Should they get priority o•1er, for instance, putting an extension on the children's hospital that is bursting at the seams? The Grand Falls Hospital where people have to be trought in and put in the c0rridors? Channel-Port aux Basques where you have a firetrap?

Are ..:hesE: agreements the Premier is talking about, do they rank top prio;·ity or should the health of our people be put ahead of some of these things that are included in these agreements? And would the Govern~ent of Canada be receptive to a proposal from this Province that instead of wasting their money that they put it into hospital extension and expansion, and building new hospitals as the administration having been promising the people stnce 1972? MR. SPE:\KER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr.

Speaker, as I said the federal government have made it very clear that they are not getting involved in health expenditures in any province in this country. They feel it is a provincial responsibility, and they have made that very clear to all provinces.

The agreements that are presently before DREE, and there are several of them, but a few of the proposals,! should say, rather than agreements, is the polytechnical institute where training, particularly fisheries training,is goi~g to be a very large factor in the future; there is one on rural development, for the development of rural Kewfoundland in small business development particulary; there is one on the fisheries, which is,I would suggest,of very great magnitude and importance if we are going to get the economic development going in this Province. There is a huge one for Labrador.

And I think even the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) will agree that that is a neccesity for the people of that very large area of the Province. So basically, Sir,there are lots of opportunity for the federal government to help in the development of this Province. SOME RON. ~!EMBERS: Hear, hear! 702

HaTch 16, 1978 Tape 243 PK - 3 :MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir foll,owed by the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South. ' SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Premier. Last night in a television show which he appeared on, The Watson Report , is the item I want to refer to, .As we know he went national last night~ he did not do awfully well, but he went nat:ional anyway. In view of his startling admission, Mr.

Speaker, that his heart and soul is not really in this seal hunt, that he himself could not participate, an4 t:hat lq.nd of thing, will he now tell the House which side he is on, Mr. Speaker? Is he on the side of the seal hunt campaign, Mr. Speaker? smm RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! :MR. SIMMONS: Or is the Premier, Mr. Speaker, really in bed with the people, the crowd - SOME. HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! :MR. SIMMONS: - is he really in bed with a crowd that want to put ari end to the seal hunt? :MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea:r! :MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! 703 ' '{ ·i ' '! .! {.

March 16, 1978, Tape 244, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Before the hon. Premier answers, I should point out that questions which are argumentative are not permitted. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, even by someone with such expert knowledge of getting on the bandwagon late, it is too late for the bon. gentl~~an to suggest that now. SOME HON. MEI,.IBERS : ---- Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier is awfully preoccupied with the bandwagon. It looks like he has missed a few band~qagons.

If you can judge by his high cheeks he has missed a few bandwagons the last couple of days. AN RON. MEMBER: He is in the (Inaudible) you are laughing at. MR. S H1MONS : Yes, whether bandwagons or perhaps wagons. I would recommend wagons to the Premier. Mr. S?eaker, would the Premier clarify the remarks he made on the Watson Report last night. He did leave a lot oi people wondering where he did stand - and my question was not all that facetious - it left a lot of wondering where he stands on the seal hunt and whether he is wi~h us or against us on ~~is one. MR. SPEAKER:Tbe The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if that is worthy of an answer or not. The people of this Province know exactly where I stand as far as the seal hunt is concerned. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: As I said last night, I do not think the killing of any animal, when watched by people who are not normally exposed to it 704 L r·: ' f ~. •II t J ~:

March 16, 1978, Tape 244, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: it is an unpleasant sight, it is a gruesome sight, it is not something that - AN HON. l-1EMBER: vfuat about hunting? PREMIER MOORES : I have been exposed to that and I enjoy it. :!-1R. FLIGHT: Sure! He enjoys it! PREMIER MOORES: Sure! Of course I enjoy it. I make no bcnes about saying that. But, of course, I enjoy fishing as well. The fact is: Sir, that I think it appeals to people's be?t emotions, people in urban settings who have been taught that cruelty in any form, as they visualize cruelty, is something that upsets them.

A lot of these people ha.ve been giving huge sums of money to people who are basically rip-off artists, people who are in it £or the funds they can raise. I thought I said last night about the quality of life of our people, the traditions, the value of the hunt itself.

Whether we look at it from the humane point of view, whether we look at it from the conservation of the herd point of view, whether we .,, ' look at the economics of it itself, irrespective of which was we look at the seal hunt, Sir, the fact is that it is a way of life in this Province and anyone who '1'70Uld suggest otherwise, even by innuendo, I would say is running into real tr01lble in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ].1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The han. member for Conception Bay South. ].1R.

NOLAN : I wonder,on the same topic but hopefully in a slightly different vein, if I could address this question to the han. the Premier. He will recall no doubt, as will the former Minister of Tourism, that I tabled in this House two years ago, I 705

March 16, 1978, Tape 244, Page 3 -- apb MR. NOLAN: believe, a number of articles from The New York Daily News concerning this very matter, and expressed some concern about it. I now express the concern again. For example, the Minister of Tourism recently signed an agreement with the federal government on ~~e new tourist agreement for this Province. I submit that as a result of Mr. Davies and his gang that he has succeeded to this extent, apart altogether .from the killing of seal, Mr. Speaker, in making Newfoundlanders appear to be a bunch of barbarians and savages~and uncaring. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would call to the hon. gentleman's attention the stipulation of Standing Order 3l(

c) and express the hope that his question will be imminent. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. What I am asking is, to what extent in the Premier's opinion we are going to have to send off, in an nonpartisan sense, if you like, speakers across this land to speak on Newfoundland's history and so on. There has been so much attention publicly and nationally that is allegedly bad about this Province, it has to affect our tourist industry. How does the Premier visualize this particular problem? and I ask it in all seriousness. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all, obviously,there arepeople who have a very 706

aarch i.o,l978. Tape ••o. 245 Ali-1 .l?liliHL::R HOOKE~: derogatory opinion of the people of this Province because a promise has been made by people such as Brian Davies and others. However I think because of what has happened tber~ are a great many responsible newspapers, radio stations, television outlets wno tav~ in fact came out very strongly in favour of the people of this Province. So wnil>t there has been a negative aspect,I ~ould s~ggest Newfoundland has !lOt only cecome better known but there has been a tremendous amou,"'lt of iJOSltive word; written as '-'ell.

So i1r.>pefully it will be bene f i ·:ial. l1R. SP~R: iion. member for LaPoile, followed by t :1e non. gentle~n for Port au Port and Terra Nova. I understand that the government, or the Premier and the ministers 1met on the eight floor this morning, had a Cacin~t ~eeting. Would the Pre~ier indic~ c e to tie riouse if the matter of the increase in electricity rates came ·.1p at that meeting and if the go•rernment turned thumbs down on the increase as recommended by the Public Utilities 4oard? PREMIER NOORES : Mr.

Speaker, as I did not get back from Ottawa until l:JOp,M~today I can assure the hon. member that there is no official position gone forward from any Cabinet meeting that was neld thia morning. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. 1~£ARY: Could the Governmeat House !.eader tell the Hou~e w~1ether or not the Inatter C3111C up for discus~;;io::1 this moming'Z If not,wt,en will a decision oe taken ? Nr.

Speaker, does the ;;overnment intend to rubber stamp the recommendations of the Puolic Utilities Board or will the government be turning thumbs down on the recommendation for a fourteen per cent increase in electricity rates in this Province? Mr. Speaker, is the Government House Leader going to answer the question? 707 i !

o!arch 16,1978 Tape l~o. 245 Ad-2 lYJR. W .ROwE: uecisions made by Cabinet - MR. CALJ...A.\1: The minister can announce anything at all. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House then, Sir, the Hir..iste.r of Justict!- the acting Premie:::-, the Minister of Finance, Government House L~ader, member for Grand Bank, fcture magistrate - Wot.ld ~ile han. gentleman tell the House if a decision has been ta~en on the matter of increased electricity rates in this Province? Has a decision been taken?

If not could the minister indicate wnen a tiecision will be taken and whether it will be against the increase in electricity because of all the examples of extravagance and wa.;,ta that came out during the hearings, ex;:ravagance and waste on tue part of Newfoundland Hydro? l'JR • SP E.:U.;ER : Hon. member for Port au Port. ~JR. HODDER: Hr. Speaker, a que;;tion fer the - Is the hon. gentleman going to answer the q'Jestion? tlR. SPZAi.ER: Order, please! If an hon. gentleman does not get up then I have to call the next questioner. MR. W. ROWE: Answer the question, 'Alec!

Al.'l HON MEMBER: Not a word in his cheek. ~!R. W. ROWE: Answer the ctues tion, 'Alec.' MR. HODDi:R: Hr. SpeaKer, a question for the "Minister of Transportation and Communications in his capacity as Chairman of the Uoard of Di'Cectors of Labrador Linerb•Jard Limited. The minister in a television inte=view yesterday sajd, I believe the words were that major const=uction of the Stephenville Liuerboard mill while the mill is being convert:ed will give a shot in the ana to the area and he also said that it would take six to eight months to install machinery there.

Is the government planuing to co~vert the mill itself or do they have a buyer for the mill? ~!R. SPEAJ~R: Hon. minister of Intergovermental Affairs. ~JR. DOODY: Excuse me,Sir, I missed the last part of the 708 I - l .,. 11 \

~larch 16,1973 Tape i~o. 245 AH-3 MR. DOODY: question. HR. liOllDER: 1 asked if the government were planning to convert the mill themsel~es or if they do indeed have a buyer for the mill? MR. SP~: The hon. minister. Ti1e answer to the last p.art,and I am glad I asked for clarification, the government has no plaps at this to ~onvert the mill itself.

The exercise at the present time that is ongoing is the encouragement of private.enterprise to take on tne ;Jroject and to invest some of their o·wn capital money into a conversion of the mill to a product whicil will be profit.;ble, reasonable, s~nsiblc and logical for that particular area and that par~icular operation.

That does not certainly exclude- some governmen>: pz.rticipation somewhere along the line~but it is not the primary consideration of government ac this point to :i.nvest the necessary funds for conversion, The part of the question which relatec. to the length of time which it would take to convert the mill frcm the present linerboard operation to bleached craft pulp or a newsprint mill varies from manufacturer to manufacturer or from company to colllpany,so the ti;ue span that I gave was a rather large o:te and had to be bec~use of the rather indefinite point at which discussions are in tnis particular ·.point in time.

The ma1or obiect of t'IP. interview was to let the people in the area know that discussions were going on, t.hat they were of a r.onst!:Uct:.ve nature 1and · that there is indeed a &reat jea~ of optimism and hope for the eventual conversiou and reactivation of the ?lant at Stephenville. 709

March 16, 1978 Tape 246 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Would the minister make public any negotiations that Woods Gordon had with pr?_spective buyers? And will the minister inform the House what firms have shown interest in the mill? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation az:~d Communications. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. manber' is aware there has been Divestiture Committee appoi~ted and has been in being for sometime.

Represented on that group are representatives of the two unions directly involved in the prior operation, a ~ember of the Harmon Corporation - I think it is the Harmon Corporation or of the Joint Town Councils, one of the groups active in the are~- and these people are members of the Divestitu~e Committee. The other people on the Co~ittee are members of various goverrJment departments, and of Woods Gordon, and they bring in outside expertise as they need it.

But to that extent, Sir, the discussions and negotiations that have been taking place during the past months are public, but they are public on~y to the extent that they are a knowledge of the people whose names I have mentioned, or at least whose titles or

definitions I have given. I certainly would not be in the interest of the ultimate objective of the people of the Province to make public the discussions that have been going on with the various companies. I do not think that there is any company would seriously consider following up the procedures if they were going to be discussed publicly the way that most of us in public life would like to see them discussed. So I think we are going to have to wait a little while - MR. HODDER: A supplementary. MR. DOODY: - before we proceed. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner.

MR. :!ODDER: The minister in his television interview which I referred to earlier made very favourable comments about the mill's prospects. Now does this ~ean that the minister is telling the people of Bay St. George, hang on, do not sell your houses, do not take a job in Iran, hang on because things are going to be good? Or is he just trying to keep up optimism in case there is an election or something like 710 ~ t I

March 16, 1978 Tape 246 PK - 2 Mr. Hodder: that? In my estimation, you either have to tell the facts and let the facts come out or say nothing. What is the minister trying to do here? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. wnat the minister is trying to do is something that perhaps the Opposition party is not familiar with- the minister is trying to tell the absolute and undiminished truth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DO-:JJ:IY: What ~•e are trying to do is trying to acquaint the people in the area with a situation - MR. SIMMO~S: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. MP .• W.

ROWE: What about the Twillingate by-election? A point of privilege has now come up. MR. SINMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister has certainly cast aspersions on every member on this side of the House, but I rise on my own behalf that he intimated that we over here do not tell the truth. Now we :nake a deliberate effort to cia so, Mr. Speaker; I do for my part and I think I speak for every colleague over here. And the minister haa to retract that statement, that bit of innuendo, that somehow he has the monopoly on truth · and we are incapable of telling the truth. SOfiE HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR.

SIMMONS: That is shameful,even from the minister. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, in all humility, and all seriousness at no time did I intimate that bon. members opposite were n0c capable of telling the truth. What I intimated was that there were occasioas in the past when they had told something less than the completely undiminished truth. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh, oh! MR. DOODY: Now if han. members opposite want me to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh, oh'. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 711

March 16, 1978 Tape 246 PK - 3 MR. DOODY: If han. members opposite want me to withdraw that, Sir, I will be most happy to do so. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. DOODY: If they feel they are not capable of telling the tntth, that I misconstrued the thing, I will say, well I will take the whole thing back, I will start again from scratch. What I was trying to do - MR. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman has withdrawn? MR. DOODY: Completely, i=evocably, and unequivcc.ably.

What I am trying to do is answer the question of the hon. member opposite which was, what was my intent in giving tn:!.s l.nterview to tne press relative to the status of negotiations and the ongoing prospects oi the mill in the Stephenville area~ It had nothing to do with upccming slections, as the han. member suggested in his

preamble. To the best of my knowledge there is no imminent elect:ion in that particular part of the Province, Ifthere were I would certainly be very, very interested and very, very concerned, and I think the people out in that area would be very, very happy at the prospect. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: What I am saying, Sir, is that tae Province, and the people responsible for the operation of the economy of the Province, are doing everything that they possibly can to reactive the mill and to try and provide some econcrnic opportunities for the people who live in that area.

That does not mean to suggest that anybody who is living in that part of the world whc get~ an opportunity for a job, and I think it was lran the han. member mentioned, should turn down the opportunity if they get ~ job in Iran. I think there a~e many people in the Province who are looking for jobs, not only in that part of Newfoundland but in many parts of Newfoundland, and I do not want to raise hopes or give out false expectations or to make people feel that there is a resurrection tomorrow that is going to solve all the problems in the Bay St.

George area. ~'hat I simply gave was an unexaggerated and a very accurate summation · of the situation as it stands to date, and I hope to be in a position to do that from time to time when called on. I 712 0. ' ,, ., r

March 16, 1978 Tape 246 PK - 4 MR. DOODY: am not interes ~ed 1n raising false hopes or in giving false impressions . MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated that I ~11 recognize the bon. gentleman for Terra Nova next . M.~ . T. LUSH: Mr . Speaker, a question for the Minister of Labour and Hanpower. In view of the recent layoffs of 350 men at Labr£dor City, wi~~ IOCC, I wonder if : he minister can inform the Rouse whe ther or not he took any initiatives or the government took any efforts to prevent this situation fro m happening? 713 t . t

7 March 16, 1978, Tape 247, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: We certainly did. The figure is not 350,it is considerably less than that,and by the time the twelve weeks rolls aro~~d it will probably be considerably less than 300. The number is not now 350,although I do not have the official numbers ye-'c. It would not be 350. We have held meetings with the company, we put it point blank to them and asked them not to lay off.

Their position was simply this, that plants where they w~re selling in Europe, who were operating at 60 per cent capacity, they were selling half their product to and because environmental problems they have had, and start-up problems, they had plant that was operating at 2900-plus people - 2925 or 2950 - they felt that on a study they had done the number of people needed to operate that plant was around 2550 or 2600. We asked them not to go ahead with the layoff; they said they had to and proceeded with it. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

LUSH: Can the minister assure us that there will be no further layoffs in Labrador City or in Wabush? I understand that the company at Wabush is contemplating similar moves. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: First of all, I can only say what I feel. The evening I heard it, the next morning I had an opportunity to talk with a senior official of Wabush Mines. Wabush Mines is jointly owned, it is a conglomerate of seven companies.

Two of the companies happen to be DELFASCO and STELCO, and wi~h the Canadian pipeline going ahead, I would be very surprised if any layoffs ensued at WabushMines. Indeed, Wabush Mines 714 _I . t

7 March 16, 1978, Tape 247, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: appears to be one of the better operating iron ore operations now in North America, probably,with the prospects of the pipeline, so they have not indicated to me the possibility of any layoffs. What happens there, so that I arr. certain that everybody ~nderstands the situation; in December of every year the companies which are involved in the operation of Wabush !!lines, Pickands - Mather,the managing agent,and the other ~ompanies, including DELFASCO and STELCO,give in their requirements of iron ore for the year.

They have an ~pportunity in March or April to reassess that and the \~abush V.inesdo not anticipate there will be any reassessment because of the fact that the pipeline is going ahead and because of the fact that there is a certain penalty clause - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ROUSSEAU: Because of the fact there are certain costs incurred we are not doing it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ROUSSEAU: Am I answering it too much? Am I? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~.R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

LUSH: In view of the present si·tuation in Labrador City, and I refer to the strike situation, and in view of the fact that one of the reasons given for the strike had to do with contracting out, and in view of the fact that the Bartlett Enquiry made some specific recommendations with respect to contracting out, I wonder if the minister would inform the House when the government intends to implement the major recommendations 715 f - ~ ~ •• .. -t ..

March 16, 1978, Tape 247, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: of the Bartlett Enquiry? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Government is working on that right now, Mr. Speaker. I made an 3nnouncement the other day on - I hope very soon now because of the strike situation, the Iron Ore Company of Canada will be - The han. member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) - somebody said, Thanks. If you do not want the answers gentlemen, I will not give them. It is a very important question and if people do not want the answers and make the suggestion that I am talking too long, I am sorry gentlemen.

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. !"LIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister, I know,would not intentionally accuse me of something I may not have been guilty of doing, but he is indicating that the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans interrupted his answer and I >Wuld like to point out to the minister that it may not have been the member for Windsor Buchans. MR. ROUSSEAU: For the moment I thought it came from there. If it was not the member, I apologize. MR. SPEAKER: In any case, there is no point of order before the Chair.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise under the provisions of Standing Order 23 to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely,the serious strikes ongoing at Baie Verte and Labrador City based on the issues - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 716 ~i. ~ ~ ·' ;~ · ~ '" :t .l:

~~rch 16, 1978, Tape 247, Page 4 -- apb ~tR. RIDEOUT: - of safety and health conditions at those mining operations. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Under the provision of th.e relevant Standing Order and, as hon. members are aware, the precedents of the House,a number of criteria are required,among them the urgency of debate now, an:t following and associated to that the reasonable expectation that there will be an opportunity for debate in the very near future.

With the Address in Reply on the Order Paper whereby in terms of relevance the matters :r.;eferred to of the strikes in Baie Verte and Labrador City, and the health related issues could be debated, and it is my understanding that that order was to be called today, then the provision of reasonable expectation of an opportunity for debate very soon is met and the precedents would not allow me therefore to give the hon. gentleman leave. 717

:!arch 16, 1973 r- 1 Oi!DE::? .. S UF ?III: DAY. . The anendment to the Address in ?.o;ply. T~e hon. me~ber for LaPoile. :ir. Speaker, there is no tr~uble for a Deu1ber to ~)ec.ame >H·:~ll hcadeU. ~1ith such anthuastic collea~es. :rr . Sp:aaker, on a fOi:.J.!.: of privilcc;e. .:':.. ~oint o:E privilege o..pl='.:1re .. 1tly he.s 3.ri.sen. :~r. Spe2.l:::::r, t~1is point shoulL. !:~.ve Des~- :-::..:..sed or.

TucsJ.ay ;hc~·:ever., I hacl to res~arch t!1e ap:_Jroi-'riate ci t2.tio:-!.S .:l:::.ll. the ;o iLit I a2:!1 :.aakinci is ~once min~ t':1e priviler;es of this aou.se. ~ie are ~H!::...n~ su"ujec.tcU, have been subj2ctt;d and are about to be su1Jjected a,::w.in to an unending filibuster. :'Io enci in sight. The hon. 8;e:1tle:::1an' s voj'.ce se~TL15 to 'ue capai.Jle of carrjing h~ t:1rou2)1 severrtl mere cJ.ays.

The citations I cite are :Jtand.ing Orders number Sl("u), Beauchesur: citaticm 119 sub:;ection 2 on relevance a:c.d citation 108 on insolence. ~otwithstanding Standing Order 49(a)and (0) :>f this :Io;J.3e and deauchesne citatio!l 117 (1) and (2) an<:! citJ. tion 119 (1) ar:d (

J) t;-:hiL::;. safc~uarcl .. l me!:l:Jer 's right to speak freely. Under certain circumstances and this is one of t:tem a member nay Sj?eak beyond his alle>tted tine bu·c nowhere is a me;•:ber guara<:1teec.l uali!ll.ited tic.te neither in ~eauchesue nor in our ~ta:-Ldin£; Orders. And when a r.~enber publicly procla.ims :-tSs intention to S?eak for ·1ays on end as if ta set s~Jne kind c•f a r~(:,oyd,ch~n J:: thinlr it is l:iUle for this ::-rouse to act, ·~r.

Speal.;:er~ ~-:i.~ s~)~-=ch so far has Or::en tedious and rer>etitious and t!iat is againEt our Stnndin,; Orders 1 tiJ:le cocsu ni1-1g_, ::1ischievous and ve.:-:atious J in fact 2. !:'at;•ba,: of ranbli7tg3 ,. ; ta:ti::..g Your :ronour 's forebear2.nc~,r 'NoulG. ;:;us;gest, to tl1e limit. So f:1r no precedent has been set. ~{e have ;out . ·• ~-. up ~Jith unliutited speeches before but there has never been a decision allmving unlimited speeches. People have been allowed tc ao beyond thc.ir all-.Jtt2d ti:-:12 but tl:ey ~lave r!ever been t;uaranteed unliuitec! 718

:cc.:::c!: !.5, 1978 :rrt. J a C .. \RTE!t: lac kin:; in the c1on. gentleman ,r would suggest. I therefore invite A ?Oint of order? :m. J . CAl'.'!:ER: No, a point of privilege. of super - I ~en not hear a po int of o r de r 1.-:hile t !'lcra is 2. ~o in t o£ ~ rivi leg ~ in ~ r e ces s . 2ut is J. : .\:'..T:!:::.: :Lt ·ioul d ::c ~ re zt :_: ti..:e ~ t l..c:l...ar c v ul.: -~1.2 Uf ~ :..i s ~in~ Ly now, Sir. i.:l . .3P: .A.:2R ; .:;.;:ssion . ~le a r! :lear! I:1e hen. Leader of the ::Jpposition . :lr.

Spea!~er, first of all, Sir, I only riue, 3ir, not to cli.:!,nlfy that piece of buffoonery but in the :1ope t~1a.t by some frea~:ish a.ber:ltion or lac~~ t:1.e~eof t~1is C.ocs not in e.:t:,7 r.·1ay beco~c a precedent of tl1e Eouse. First of all, Sir, there is no point of privile;e ra.ised. If in f:J.ct t ;<ere was anything germane to oe raised, it s:10ul<l ''ave been raised ':Jy a point of order,;?er::aps.

Second of all, Si=, t:1.e ~oir.t of pri.vile~s,if it 1•.'a::» a po :L:c of privi:_e~c,.u.:.s .1ot ra:!..3.cd at t~~e. e.3rliest possible opportunit y ;a~l.ti thirdly, Sir, ·-re :laY 3pea!:. for a.r.. infinite lengtj, of tine. He do !lOt kno~·J i:llat yetw >Ve 1dll not knml un:=il eternity in fact !1as arisen. oy the hen. menber for W,1at is he anyway? ::m.. :-.'EARY : St. John's :-!orth. St. Johrr 's Nort)<. I hear so littl.o. fro r1 hi!1, •:r. S?ea ker, 719 [ ·

1~7 8 T~pe 'To. 248 .r.: -· 3 :JR. ~l.:>r. ROHE: I do not eve._1 l:1.1.0w 'vilat oeat :1e sit~ in in tl1e ~louse. :!r. Speaker, there is ao point of privile3e involved bu!: simply ti,ere· may be a facetious point of order rais .ed. :Jut I just stand for t:•e record, Sir, to state t1:at there is no ;JOint of privileze nor a l>oint of order.

The hon·. !!lt!m:,er for LaPoile :1as spo\..en for four hours so far a:1d I oyBelf, Sir, fou;:~d it most entertainin.;,as have all members of the Rouse, I would submit., :-:.L.low, Si:: .~ last }ear, one would reccJ.ll) one r,f the ;:rreat I'olitical of one of t:1e ::;re:J.t ,.olitical i:J.stitutions,::r- SmalhJOod ,in this :louse. :lear! :·lear! raise 3. ~· Cint of privilege, 3ir, is a disgusting spectacle ·. ~lear ! :·!car ! 720 li -~ ,, ; ..

March 16, 1978 Tape No. 249 RT-1 MR. SPEAKER: The substance of the points brought up by the bon. gentleman is that the hon. member for LaPoile 0·1r. Neary) is filibustering and, presumably, should not continue. All I can point out is that of course our Standing Orders or prece~ents do not make any direct refe~ence to filibustering as long as one b~ings oneself within the requirements of relevance, parliamentary language and other requirements. As I understand filibustering it is speaking merely to take up time~<md one hears of incidents in tte United Stat.es, fo:r exa:nple, of people reading telephone books.

That type of thir.g obviously ·w-ould not be permitted, But I •,yould -,oint out that the Standtng Orders on a motion of non-confidence make no limitation as to time. As was point~d out, whether it will be unlimited or not, it will take us all a long while co see. But t:he~e is no stated limit as to time, and as long as thf. hen. gentleman brings himself within the rules of relevance, of parliamentary language, then he o;"Jviously can ccnt:;!.nue. I would point out also of course that - I do not think the han. gentleman ~•de this submission but it may have been assumed in his use of the word filibuster.

It may have been assumed. That would be a different case. I think there a person could easily put himself outside of relevauce. Also, of course, the Government on four days of the week controls the order of business. Once the order of business is called then that is that, I think that also would be a guarantee if one understood filibuster in a different sense from the way I defined it which would have nade it out of order on account of relevar.ce. The hon. member is speaking as the introducer of an amendment which is of the nature of a non-confidence motion and the Standing Orders ?rovide no time limit.

SOME RON. ~MBERS: Hear, hear! ~. W. ROWE: I rise on a point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Point of Order. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, during the scurrilous remarks by the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) he accused my hon. colleague here of having bad will or - what were the terms used? rr

MarcO. 16, 19 78 Tape No. 249 RT-2 AN HON. MEMBER: No good will. MR. Y. ROWE: - lack of good will, Sir, which is the definite, unequivoca~ imputation of bad motives to a member of the House. As a colleague of this hon. gentleman, Sir, I ask the Chair to direct the hon. member to withdraw those scurrilous, slanderous remarks. SOMF, liON. t-lEMBERS: SJ.1ama, sha~.e! :-m.. SPEAKER: Ron. member. MR.. J. CARTER: To that point of order, Xr.

Speaker • If necessary I will produce the remark in HansGrd but the hon. gentleman has gone on record as boasting about his ability to make a marathon of this particular speech and if that is not an admission of bad will, I do not know what is. lfR. SPEAKER: Actually, the rules wi~h respect to parliamentary language apply,as I understand it,to what transpir.~s in the House. There are extenuating circumstances of matters which transpire out of the House if they are brought up in this House, but if the hon. gentleman did allege bad faith or ill will then he will be required to withdraw that allegation.

SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: Naturally, Mr. Speaker, I am ill; your hands and if I have said anything unparliamentary I withdraw it unequivocally. However, I am very disappointed that the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) sees fit to take advantage of the rules of this House. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I think ••e should regard the matter as disposed of and the hon. gentleman should continue his speech. !o!R • NEARY : Sir, let me make a reference to what the hen. gentleman just said before the hon. gentleman took his seat.

Your Honour knows full well that I have not broken any rules of this hon. House and I want to congratulate Your Honour,as a matter of fact,and I want to congratulate the Deputy Speaker of this House for doing such an excellent job under very tryicg circumstances in this session of the House when we have had so many personal attacks made on members on this side, Sir, and Your Honour has ruled every time that the remarks had to be withdrawn and the members had ,.., ·') 2• (:.. ' . " ~. ' .. i' '

March 16, 1978 !ape No . 249 RI-3 MR. NEARY: to apologize . We saw another example in this House this afternoon, Sir . That is the only way, Mr . Speaker, we can 1raintain the decorum of this House. It is the only way 101e can maintain lc:w and order in this Rouse. I have to compli=t '!our Honour for doing such s. fine job, Sir , in this r egard. tt is absolutely amazi~g and it is ve=Y impressive especially to me, Sir, who has had to ask so often 723 ;-. !; r • ~

l'larcn 16,1978 Tape ~ o. :Z50 AH-l HR. .N t:AR.i : for the protection of the Chaic. You see, Mr. Speaker, hon. ministers sometimes misinterpret an attack on their department and on their position. They t~~e it personal and they retaliate, Sir, with a scurrilous, personal attactc on tne member on this side who happens to be doing that, who happens to oe zeroing in on that particular minister or department. In ~ctual fact, ~~. Speaker, if Your llonour would check i~nsard and check the records~ ti..:.ere hav~ been no personal re111>1rks made frc•m this sice of tne House ir. this session of the House so far.

All my c.ol.l.eagues have managed to restra~ themselves. ~i liON. }fEMrlER: Nobody has-spoken. MR. NEARY: Well,that is exactly the point, Sir. My han. frieud has said ncoodJ has spoken. Well, Sir, my han. friend and ~is colleagues go outside of this House and say the member for La?oile (Mr. Neary) is the one who gets personal, is the one who attacks people's character, and I have been five uays now on my feet and there has not ceen one personal attack, there has not ~een one sour note. If there is any character assassination, if there is it is coming from the other side of the tiouse.

And I hope, Slr, that the people in the gallery, the press people will take uote of tne fact that my colleagues - none of my colleagues, and I have oeen speaking now for four or five days,have said anything about char acter, have attacked a minister personally. If ~-ou say a minister is incompetent that is not a personal attack, ~\r. Bpr,aker,you are attacking the position. And furthermore, Hr. Speaker, there was no boasting; I have not outside of this House made one reference so far to any of the speeches or the length of time that I intend to speak in this House, no reference at a11.

Al'i l:lOL"; ~;BER: You just finished saying that. MR. i~£A!I..Y : I did not just finish saying it, Hr. Speaker. To be perfectly honeet with members of the douse,I would have finished my few remarks on Friday had it not been but for interruptions 724 i -1 . ,~ ~~ I t

~iarch 16,1978 Tape ;~o. 250 AH-2 MR. Nt:ARY: from members on the opposite side of the House. And let me say this ,lil". Speaker, in reference to tile hon. member for ~t. John's North (Mr. Carter); even, Sir, if I took my sent now in this bon. House we would n~t hear a peep, not a sound out of the hen. gen~leman. The bon. gentleman has spoken.un two or three occasions in this House to give his oWn administration a kind of a backhandea flick, that is all.

The hen. gentleman has done nothing for his district, uothing for tne Province, just taken a little 5Wipe, needling,neealing his mm colleagues or tearing somebody else apart. And so, Mr. Sp~aker, 1-intend, Sir, to finish my few remarks. I intend to finish them in my o~~ time, i~ my own style and I am not going to be provoked by any hen. geutlemen on the opposite side. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, tl~t every hon. member of this douse before this sitting.is over will have a chaJJ.ce to speak.. ~.lr. Speaker, I w~s given the major responsibility of leading off tl.e Throne Speech by my colleagues.

Ti1at is a major responsibility, that was a heavy responsibility that was placed on my shoulders. And in so doing my colleagues undarstood that I would be either carrying on until my speech was finished or I would be moving a vo~e of non-confidence in the government.

And my colleagues know full well that unless the government shuts the House down after we get rid of the seventy-five hours that we have on the estimates, unless the government shuts the House down as they appar..mtly intended to do. snut her <io~'Ii as quickly as they can- the1 have shut down all the industries or a lot of the industries in this Province and now they are going to shut down the only bulwark of democracy that is left, shut down the House as fast as ycu can.

My colleagues on this side understand that they can now make two speeches as a result of the motion that I moved- They can speak on the amendment, on the vote of noa-confidencet and they can speak on the Address in Reply. And not only that,Sir, not only that but each one of my colleagues,if they want to,up to 725 - j . I -i

Haren 16,1978 Tape t~o. 250 AH-3 HR. NEARY: a certain point can move a vote of non-confidence which would allow them to speak for an indefinite period of time. And in addi~ior. to that, Mr. Speaker, each one of my collP.agues when the Budget is Lrou&ht down and the oudget Debat~ starts can 726 . i

1973 :!.51 .r.: -- 1 speak at least once 1 if not tt.·lice in t~e ~udget de~ .. 1te. ::r. Spea~~er, ny lien. colleac;ues are ~ot im:)atient. ~~ :1on. colleagues ar~ ~vaiting ur:.til I finish and ti::e:::1 t!1e ::'.ni:oter of Fisi1eries will follow ne t:1e :!inister of Fi.sheries, if he is in :1is seat and the han. 3G:lt1e"l1an is not t!1ere no\oJ' -in a fe~\, n:inut~s if t~e :ilember for St. John 1 s :lorth l:ould just stop interrupt:n~ nc :!nc t!1r~ 3:!wber for - t~e de..,osed 'linister of Trnnsportation and ~on~•.lnications J if t3e ·.::inister- - :I? ... DOODY: ------- I did :lCt say ~ U:Jd., Sir.

If the !!!inister vould just restrain hinself. The::. just .:;ive -oe a few ;nore ninutes. Give !J.e a fe\·7 ninutes to "ind up :ny few remarl~s. :.T.. :; 1.-A~Y: ::J.:-.. ot~:r:r t':ro or th:-ee 7Jinutes ':7~Sted.. If t~z :ni!'l_ister.s,Sir I if t~~ !'!tir.isters \'lould just control t:leeselv·es, not ~o b~rserl-:: restrain ey re~rks and then the ~~inis=er of Fis:1eries cac r~et U!J on his feet and if the hon. r;entle!!lan so riesires he can tear the hide off us. So, Hr.

Speaker, havir-~ said that I !lO'·' first of 211, Sir, would like to deal 'nth the resi~nation of the han. ~ember £or Grand Falls as :finis ter of r,ural D-;velop1ent. Hr. Spee.ker.. last '·1~el: in this hon. House: if han. T~ntlcr~n Hi~.l ju.:;t recall =h12. 1 veu:~:. ger..tlernan did u.ot i1ear the nE.:\oiS, now i1-:1.S an oprortunity to get into ,,,, ...... \,. l·!r. Speaker, I ;:o'-lld certai.aly reco=2:1d - 727

TaJ!c :~c. 2.51 J:: - ::r. S:;u.a:al:.er, tl~at the hen. G..:!:r..tle~:an '.)e iavit.2d iatc t:~c Cabinet. The han. :.:.inister of Fi~ance 1 1.;ho is also ~liaistcr of Ji.lStice, ~-t.JuJ..d fl_ot let .30 tile Justice I;epartoent so the :1on • .:;er .. tle~an could. slide in. Jut now t:1ere is 3. vacancy aad I could t:·,L~k :>f no tletter t:l~SC! clays, getting in 2,reat share ~nd I c.m. sure j_.)il)tsicc~lly f.lcUd :u~n.tZL~l;.r. ;_Jostcla.ted fror.1 ministers \7ho have r..:siST.-ed? :lou ;.1any :-:1o·:c aoc..-:3 :1e i1avz in :~is poc!'-2t?

The hon. ~entlcman has baen carryiu.g =~1iS resignacio-:.~ 2.round since Uarc:.1 l.Jt"i:!. in the :1on .. ~;;n-.. tle:aan' 3 pcc::.et ai.~d 1 referreC: tn it l~~t \·leak in my fetv r-amark.s here in this han. :-louse ~-;hen I tall~2d kneti on this side of the <:ouse that t:1ere t·7as trouble in t:•e :::~.'ui~1et. ·~....:.

L:neu s:1e ~.r::s ~atting ready to ~o bottom up. ;re kae•.-~, Sir, t!:~t t~1e other ruinisters, Sir, who are on the verge of either gettin:; the flick ':h;o.t cllere are a few backbenchers who are very disill1!sioned with the :~erfo:rrL1.ncf::' of tl--.e ai!!ni!.!istration. ~1=.y are c.heesed off: S.ir ~ t:l,~Y ~ee:-.. violated hy the adr.i.inistration, false promises t:1at h:=.vr= ~1e~n ~ta~:~ ·.~s r·ecially rluri:1g Jy--elections and t1:t• t~ E.ceit£ul~es 5, :1ir J es peci::'.lly~ as I say,>vhen by-elections are helt! in this :;>rovince . ~ ,, 728

March 16, 1978 Tape No. 252 RT-1 MR. NEARY: and during election time. So, Mr. Speaker, we can understand the frustration of some of the ministers. I do not know how ~ feel about the Minister of Rural Development resigning. I have mi.~ed feelings. I am sorry. I hate to see a Minister resign, to be forced to resign. Then, on the other hand, I admire a man who will stand on his principles. I admire a man who will renounce his colleagues for not keeping their promise to the people who live in r.is constituency, in this particular instance, Grand Falls.

I admire a man for that, Sir, and I am sure rJ han. friend has nothing but respect and would tip his hat to the hon. member for Grand Falls for having the courage to stand up for his convictions. Not too many ministers would have the courage to do that. The last time it happened I think it was Mr. Cheesman who resigned. Mr. Cheesman resigr..ed basically for the same reason, non-performance, A.'l HON. MEM!lER: I t:link it ;J<!S ?cars hall. MR. NEARY: Yes. The han. gentleman for St. John's East (~r.

Marshall) resigned from the Cabinet, I think the hon. gentleman should have resigned from the House, or crossed the House, or come over and sat down with my friend from Bay Roberts, because the han. gentleman resigned on the grounds that a certain buddy of the hon. the Premier was going to get an office building over here at Wedgewood Park without calling public tenders. We hear now that the same thing is happening again but I do not hear a sound out of my han. friend, not a sound. MR. MARSHALL: The han. gentleman will be heard when and if the situation arises, which I do not believe it will. MR.

NEARY: In other words, Mr. Speaker, do I understand the han. gentleman as saying, and the han. gentleman can correct me if he wants to, that if a certain close friend of the han. the Premier has an Order-in-Council in his pocket or has an assurance of the contract to put an extension on Confederation Buildingtthat my hon. friend will take a stand? But what kind of a stand? Will my han. friend still continue to support that administration? That is the key question. 729

March 16, 1978 Tape No. 252 RT-2 MR, MARSHALL: I said you shall wait with bated breath. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have waited before with bated breath and I must say I was rather disappointed with my hon. friend. But we saw my hon. friend resign from the Cabinet for a different reason than the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) and the former Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Cheesman. The reasons were different in this way, Sir, that both of these gentleman resigned because of the breach of promise on the part of the Government. My hon. friend resigned for what appeared to be a bit of political skulduggery.

So that was a different reason. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I am happy or sad about the resignation of my hon. friend. It is always, Sir, a bit of a shocker to this House and to the people of the Province when they hear of ministers who are forced to resign. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, the frustration, the turmoil, the chaos inside of that Cabinet? It must be devastating,and it is having a very serious effect on the Province as a whole. Is it any wonder, Mr. Speaker, that we cannot get anything done. There is no leadership, Sir. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I know that resignations sometimes have a tendency to bring people a little closer together because I was once a member of a cabinet myself,and I have been in the House long I enough to know the strategy that will be implemented now. One minister after the other will be told by the head of the Administration, by the Premier, 'Now,boys,we have to stick together. This is our time to stiCk together', and the ministers will fall for it, Sir. Some ministers will fall for it. Some will not. Some backbenchers will fall for it. Some will not.

From now on we will see in this House for the remainder of the session a sort of an expression of solidarity. One minister after the other will get up on his ' . t; 730

Narcil 16,1978 Tape No. 253 AH-1 ~JR.. N£ARY: pins and .oay, "Boy, this is a great government. I am all for it~' even though down deep in the pit of his stomach he may feel like going outside the door and throwing up after having said it. I know, Mr. Speaker, I know what the strategy will be. The orders will go out,"Now,boys,stick together. We have lost one; two will destroy us". Because for the longest time, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if Your Honour has heard any rumours or not,we have been hearing them for months and months and I mentioned it in this aouse since I started to speak on the Throne Speech, rumours about the dissension in the Cabinet, dissension in the ranks . You cannot run a Province that way, Sir; you have to have Cabinet solidarity, you nave to have everybody behind you. Times are difficult enough as they are. But, Mr. Speaker, you cannot support nothing , there is the problem. If you have no leadership, if you have no policy and no platform,-w·ell what do you do?

Do you stand up in the House anc! say, "We are all together. We will rise or fall toge~:her'! They will probably fall together, Sir, like a house of cards. They have nothing to fight for, nothing to crusade for, tile life is gone out of them. They .are qver there, Sir, like a beaten bunch of men, and, Mr. Speak~r, it is beginning to show all over the Province. This problem is not being dealt with, they cannot cope with this, they cannot do anything about this situation, they cannot do anything about that situation, they are making contradictory statements.

You hear a statement one day L~ this House about the policy on the Lower Churchill and the Upper Churchill and the Minister of Hines and Energy the next day will contradict the Premier and then the next ciay the Premier will contradict tha Minister of Hines and Energy,and then the next day the Minister of Justice will contradict the two of them. It is Mumbo Jumbo and we are all confused. They cannot get their act together . MR. iiEARY: That is right. My hon. friend says they cannot 731

March 16,1978 Tape No. 253 AH-2 HR. NEARY: get their act together. Mr. Speaker, I do hope, Sir, I do hope that my bon. friend,the gentleman who resigned today, the han. Hinister of Rural Development, I do hppe the han. gentleman will stay in the House. I hope the han. gentleman will not resign from the House. ~~. Speaker, I say that with one stipulation, I say that with a certain qualification, Sir. I would like to see the han, gentleman stay in the House because I believe in my heart tl~t the han. gen:leman has a contribution to make to this Province, to the people of ti..lis Province.

Now I so happen to believe also, Sir, that tne hon. gentleman cannot make that contribution sitting to your left, to Your Honour's left. SOME dON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. ;-.iE..<\.RY: I am not inviting the han. gentleman to come o~er, It is not my pl~ce, Sir, to invite the hon. gentleman to come over and sit with the Opposition, that is not my place, I am not doing that, tiir.

But there is another spot in this hon, House in whiCh that particular gentleman can sit, I have had the privilege and the honour, Sir, of occupying that position for two and one half years, right down here,Your Honour,where my dear friend and colleague from Bay Roberts (Mr. Dawc) sits. The han. gentleman could sit as an Independent PC or the hen. gentleman could sit as an Independent, period. If the han. gentleman is a strong PC-and I doubt that "Tery much because before the hon. gentleman ran for the riding of Gander - Twillingate, before the han. gentle1nan who is now the ~mber for Grand Fzlls (Mr.

Lundrigan) ran in that riding the non. gentleman was a card carrying Liberal. So I cannot see the meaber for Grand Falls(Mr. Lundrigan) being such a staunch Tory; as a matter of fact I cannot see the han. gentleman being a Tory at all. So I would say that the hon. gentleman has no real strong feelings a~011t the Tories, about the PC party, has no loyalties to the Tory party. The gentleman I would think, Sir, is probably more of a Liberal than he is a Tory. 732 • f. f: ; !

March 16, 1978 Tape 254 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: The hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, and I can only speak personally, I cannot speak for the party, but !·would say personally speaking that I would like to have the hon. gentleman as a colleague, and that is only my own personal feelings, Sir. I am not speaking for my colleagues or for the party. We have a president and we have a leader who can do that. But personally speaking, Sir, I would be very happy to sit in this hon.

House with the former Minister of Rural Development, especially with his experience that he gained while a member of Parliament, Sir, very outspoken, the very outspoken gentleman sat with my friend, the Minister of Fisheries,in the Parliament of Canada, made a magnificent contribution to the debates, most colourful when the hon. gentleman sat in Parliament, very colourful indeed, did a magnificent job. Time ran out for the han. gentleman; he got defeated, then came back to the Province and ran as a P.C.

That is the only thing I have against the hon. gentleman; apart from that, Sir, I would be ve;1 happy, very happy indeed to have the hon. gentleman sit beside me here to help us to fight the good fight, to help us, to give us, Sir, the benefit of his experience and his ability, to try to fight the major problems, to solve the problems that are facing the people of this Province. The hon. gentleman had told us so often he is just an ordinary little fellow from Upper Island Cove.

And I think I have told the House on many an occasion that I worked and lived with 200 or 300 people from Upper Island Cove for a good many years when they worked on Bell Island. And I will say one thing for the men from Upper Island Cove - they always had guts, Mr.

Speaker, I saw the men from Upper Island Cove walk from Bell Island when the ice was in and the ferries could not get across and they wanted to get home to the North shore of Conception Bay on the weekend; they would take their bags on their back, they would get out on the ice and they would walk twelve miles I to Upper Island Cove to get home for the weekend to see their families. • L ! And, Mr. Speaker, they had the courage, and 'they had the guts. And I would say my han. friend has the guts.

But my hon. friend,in order to prove his sincerity, in order to show, Sir, that he is typical of what the Upper Island Covers 733

March 16,1978 Tape 254 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: are made of, has to now disassociate himself altogether with the administration. The han. gentleman cannot sit in this House and support that administration any longer. The han. gentleman, if he were to take my advice, should now move, move away from the administration. I would be glad to have him, But the han. gentleman does not have to come over and sit with us, Sir, here just to satisfy me, the han. gentleman has a recourse of going down and sitting as an Independent P.C. or an rndependent,period. Mr. Speaker, could you not see the han. member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) over here with his gift of the gab, with his upper Island Cove sense of humour, blasting away, Sir, at the government'? Could you not see it, ~.-Speaker1 AN RON. MEMBER: How sweet it is! How sweet it would be! How sweet it would be, Sir , - AN RON. MEMBER: Sweet it will be! MR. NEARY: - to see the han. gentleman sit on this side of the House with both guns blazing. AN RON. MEMBER: He knows the skulduggery! MR. ~~Y: The han. gentleman, what a ,contribution, what a service the hen. gentleman could provide for the people of this Province.

What a service, Sir, knowing the chaos, k.~owing the strategy, knowing what is going on in the Cabinet, maintaining his silence as a Cabinet minister, but putting forward counter arguments, and counter proposals, and in a subtle way letting the people of this Province know how they are being let down and sold out. MR. WELLS: I believe the hon. gentleman is completely recovered from his flu. MR. NEARY: No,I am not, As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the han. member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) for helping me get my voice back as much as I have. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: So , Mr.

Speaker, without dwelling, Sir, any longer on my han. friend,! look forward, Sir, with great interest to the next move 734

March 16, 1978 Tape 254 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: the next move of my han. friend. My han. friend,so the han. Premier told us,went down to Grand Falls 735

~:arch l'l7S Tape :fo. 255 Jm ·· 1 I2.. Z·:EARY: and consulted ·..rith the com!llittee, the dis trict .,ssociation, t:1e hospital comm:ittee,and said, "Here I ar.~. I ain in your hands. Did I do c:1e ri:_~ht thir.g by resi:;nin;:;?" And they said, "Yes, yes you did. God Jless you." There are too many people, Sir, sitting on the opposite .>ide o::f the '!:louse Hho like t:•e salary, '"ho like the soft,cus~.1Y job they !-~ave, ~..Jho like t~1e glamour and t~1e travellin;::; and t~e privile.:;es t!1at they h2.ve to gi·ve it up ~'ls !!lY hon. friend clid. :ry h0'!.1. friend is not a la\vyer or a doctor.

Hy han. friend has given up today: SirJ uhat. ~hL~tl.: lci ':he .:;alary of a C2.hinet ~~inister r.ou7 $25~ QO'J. :·:R. : .'.CRGA!:~: 'Tite sane as the hon. z;entle=tan's. :<o, Sir, it is not the saue as the han. gentler.:an's. There is very little di~fere::1.ce. :T .• mu.r.Y: There is a biz dHference, Sir. ~·lhen the increases c'lme thruu~~ a couple. of years e30 ·'l C.:.binet :~ini3tcr 's salary I thi~k Over and acove his - ~IR.. ~TEARY: Over and above - No, :;r.

Speaker, a Cacinet :linister today is earning - A Cabinet llinister,I .:auld think,is earning about $32, 000 to $35,000 a ye:lr iu this province to cay. Plus ~•~at - )f!',. ::rzARY: How much? $1:., 1·'10. What you are making. I 2.11 not t.-tl.~ . .:r.c; ;ibout ~e. I a~ ta.l~:.in;s z.bout tl;..e ::1iais t..:r argu.7:tentJ let us say ~:-J.3.t t:1~ i1on. ~cntle::tan v;as only gettir1.3 $13,00J as a Cabil-.. et ::inist:;r, i·;oulC. th~t Ue a fair suill? Fair enough. All right. The oember for cZilbr ide ~Jlw is verj seldom ;;ron~ says ~hat is fair enQU2;~. ~·Jell the hon. :;entle~n is not a doctor 736

Tape ::c. ~ss .r:: - 2 :a. JE.\.:.W: and he is not a la,·rJer. :ie. is uot,I uoul:l :.;ay, according to today's standards not a"il academic although the i::or.. ~entleuan 'i:2.s a tec.cher .::.t one ti.we. ~{(:: may l1ave sane G.if£iculty 1;.:ith tenchir .. :; ~rofession u:U.ess i.1e upgr.J.l~Cd ~li:J.Self. So the ~1011. ge:J.tle!:!an h~s given up $13,000 pl:1s because t:1cre are fringe benefits. :re is allo,.vance. :te :1.:1s given up bein~ able to 2;') down to the !.\Otor pool a~· ...

Q ~et :l Z~ee c.ar O~ce "l ,, a Hhile. !:le has .;iven "J.J} t~le O·::d lit-:.le tri? ~~ith t:;.~ Pre::!lier dovm in 'LaPoile Jay o= do1·m on 3cu.:.J.ette Isl.3.ncl. :!s ::~s ciiveu. up tri~s :Jn L:Jn<.lrigan 15 aircraft to bri!lci DacJ.( :,Jartr-i_cl:se and moose .37J.~ .s.ll tlH!t sort of thing. L1.e hen. :;entle!!lan ::c.s 3iven all that up. lu'l RON. MEMBER: Whose aircraft? MR. NEARY: Lundrigan's aircraft, so I am told. I am talking about the hon. member for Grand Falls what he gave up today. He gave up free hunting licences.

He gave up little trips, hunting trips with the han. the Premier in LaPoile Bay and in Brunette Island and other l -I places, dowr, in Bay d'~spoir. He gave up trips on Lundrigan's aircraft bringing back moose and partridge and all that sort of thing. But these are all little fringe benefits. ·~~ The han. gentleman, I am making a point, is not an academic and he is not a doctor or a lawyer, so he has made a big sacrifice. ·de can :to longer go off on these safaris with the han. the Premier to London and Paris and he can no longer - I do not think the han. gentleman ever took up golfing.

I do not believe the han. gentleman ever went to California but nevertheless, Sir, it is a big decision. And I am sure that the han. member for Grand Falls must have spent many a restless night pondering his future. AN HON. MEMBER: - the ice. MR. NEARY: No, the han. gentleman had resigned when he went to the ice. No, the hon. gentleman had passed in his resignation before he went to the ice. 737 [ t

March 16, 1978 Tape No. 256 RT-1 MR. NEARY: The Premier said that he waited for him to come back so he could discuss it with him. In the meantime, the han. gentleman was out in Grand Falls with his constituents where the han. gentleman should h.:ne been. Righ::l.y so, he took the advice of his constituen'::s and threw in the towel. _ Now, Mr.

Speaker, having done that, having given up $13,000 a year, and the bon. gentleman has a young' family and nothing to tum to except to be a member of this House and draw just an ordinary backbenchers pay, how in all conscience, Sir, can the han. gentleman now sit as my hon. friend, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) did after concie~ing the Government,after bailing out, after tearing the hide off the Premier of the Government - I am talking about the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) now- how could the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) follow the example that was set by that gentleman? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder if the han. member would permit me to interrupt for a few moments. As it is Thursday and at 5:30 P.M. it shall be deemeci that motion to adjourn the House will be before the Chair and the so-called 'late show' will be on, I have to inform the members of the subjects to be debated. The first subject will be debated by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the han. Minister of Justice concerning a police commission, The second subject by the bon. member for Lewispo~te (Mr. ~ite) and the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications regarding ferry services.

The third by the bon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) and the bon. the Premier regarding the Rinds Lake project. Han. member. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will be anxiously looking forward to seeing what move the bon. gentleman is going to make. The han. gentleman has obviously left the sinking ship. Now the question is, Sir, will other 738

March 16, 1978 Tape No. 256 RT-2 MR. NEARY: ministers follow his good example or will they be manoeuvred into a position where they will express Cab inet solidarit y , where they will, because of instructions from the head of the Administration, the hon. the Premier, and because they will be afraid if they do not come out and say, "Bless me,father~for I have sinned but I ~ave no intention of leaving the Administration, I am going to stick with you Premier, good or bad, right or wrong I am going to stick with you, sink or swim"?

Is this the kind of a position now that the other disgruntled ministers will be put in or will they have the courage as my hon. friend from Grand Falls did? Will they have the courage, in the best interests of the people of this Province, to say, "I am sorry, Mr. Premier, but I do not believe in your fiscal policy, I do not believe in awarding contracts without calling public tenders, I do not believe in the policy you followed with Affiliated & Marine ~1etals, I do not believe in your policy of favouritism in political patronage". To give an example, Mr.

Speaker: Yesterday in the Daily News 1I think it was, March 15, there was a picture of the Minister of Rehabiliation and Recreation, nice looking fellow, takes a nice photograph, and there was a caption up over the picture. It said, 'Cheque for $200,000'. The hon. the Premier must be proud of his colleague, he takes such a nice photograph. $200,000. Now let me read the caption, Sir: 'First instalment of $200,000 of a half miilion dollar grant to the Y.M.C.A. to aid in the construction of their new home in St. John's was passed over T~esday night by Recreation and Rehabilitation Minister T.V.

Hickey to President Mary Andrews at the annual meeting at City Hall.' Nothing wrong with that. A noble gesture on the part of the Administration. My hon. friend was commenda~le. The hon. gentleman will probably be down getting ready for the Boston Marathon when it is built. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker,.'At the meeting award of the contract for the structure on New Cove Road near the present facilities was announced. It goes to J ' 739

March 16, 1978, Tape 257, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: N-0-R-D-I-C, Nordic Construction Company of St. John's in the amount of $1,335,000, the lowest of eight bids. The lowest of eight bids. That is the crucial point, the lowest of eight bids. Now, Mr. Sp~aker, I know the government will argue, Well, this is a private organization, that we have no control over this organization, that is it a voll::.nteer group. And, Mr. Speaker, let it be said in this han. House, Sir, that I am all fpr the 'Y' and I support their cause, and I respect the 'Y' and admire the volunteers, and I admire the work they do.

That is not the point at all, Sir. They are going to be passed over a half million dollars of public money, of money from the treasury of this Province, from the hard-pressed taxpayers of this Province and we see this statement, "Construction company of St, John's in the amount of $1,335,000 the lowest of eight bids." Now, Mr. Speaker, the question that I am raising here is did the minister and will the minister pass over this $500,000 without any strings attached?

Will the minister pass over this $SOO,OOO,for instance,without a reference to the preference policy that we heard expounded by the ministerwho resigned on March 10? Are there any strings attached to this $500,000, this half million dollars? Because I want to say before the hon. the Premier leaves this hon. House that the contract did not go to the lowest bidder. The lowest bidder did not get the contract. There were eight bids on that contract, eight bids. And it is stated here, Sir, with the minister - and I wish the minister was in his seat so the hon. gentleman could tell me if it is correct or not.

Well, I know, I ·know it to be a fact, Sir, that the bids were opened in public, 740 ' • t

March 16, 1978, Tape 257, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: public tenders were called, eight firms, eight companies tendered and the statement is made - I do not know who made it, whether the 'Y' made it or whether the minister made it - that the contract went to the lowest bidder. Sir, that is no.t true: The contract did not go to the lo~est bidder. And what does my hon. friend the Archangel think of that kind of policy?

Should we pass out funds right, left and centre to organizations, extensions to fish plants, new buildings and that sort of thing without insisting that the government public tendering procedure be used when public money is involved? Is that a fair and reasonable request? I ask my hon. friend from Kilbride {Mr. Wells), is that a fair request or is it not? MR. WELLS: It may be a fair and reasonable request, but having gone this far and saying they were not the lowest tender, can you say what the lowest tenqer was? MR.

NEARY: Yes, Sir, the lowest tender was approximately - well, the difference was only about $1300 741 I I ,.

March 16, 1978 Tape 258 PK- 1 MR. NEARY: and the lowest bidder was a company,called Bata? AN HON. MEMBER: Bata. MR. NEARY: Bata. Now does that answer my hon. friend's question? MR. WELLS: Does the han. member know, I mean, often there is a reason why a company does not get the job. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my hon. gentleman with his legalistic trainin