Manitoba Hansard — 21 May 1996 (Sitting 37, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-37

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 37- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 21, 1996 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation J'tolame Constituenq l'atly ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P BARRETT, Becky Wellington NDP CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.DP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charles wood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC. HELWER, Edward Gimli PC. HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West PC. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne NDP MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC. NEWMAN, David Riel PC. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PITURA, Frank Morris PC PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa PC. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON, Eric Rupensland NDP ROCAN, Denis Gladstone PC SALE, Tim Crescent wood NDP SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

Kirkfield Park PC STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere PC TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP

2357 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 21, 1996 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Seasonal Camping Fees Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Harold Lanings, Ken McMaster, Francis Asper and others urging the provincial government not to increase seasonal camping fees by such a large amount. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I beg to present the petition of Audrey Sloan, Larry Hofmeister, Barbara Murray and others urging the provincial government not to increase seasonal camping fees by such a large amount-especially when it snows. Home Care Services Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Delores Faulkner, Andrea Kaston, T. Knight and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to private home care services. Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I beg to present the petition of Bruce Clark, Gale Haines and Gary Lawlor requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I beg to present the petition of J.A. Goodwin, Bonnie Cham, Dawn Kidder and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of John Hryshko, Joseph Cloutier, Larry Gariepy and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It

2358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 199 5, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care: and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands ofcaring front-/ine service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humb(v pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the A-finister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr Leonard Evans). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. *

(1335) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honou rable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read" An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and -

May 21, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2359 THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Commit tees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Cumm ings (Minister of Envir onment): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1994-95 Annual Report of the Clean Environment Commission. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Status ofWomen. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Aff airs): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1996-97 for the Mani toba Seniors Directorate and also for Manitoba Urban Affairs. Hon.

Jim Ernst (M inister responsible for Sport): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for Sport. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 26- The Labour Relations Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that leave be given to introduce Bill 26, The Labour Relations Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to.

2360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 Bill 57-The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 57, The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act;

Loi sur la divulgation de la remuneration dans le secteur public, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 54-The Municipal and Various Acts Amendment Act Bon. Leonard Derkach (M inister of Rural Devel opment): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay ), that leave be given to introduce Bill 54, The Municipal and Various Acts Amendment Act (Loi concernant les municipalites et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 59- The Powers of Attorney and Mental Health "'

(1340) Amendment Act Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), that leave be given to introduce Bill 59, The Powers of Attorney and Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi concernant les procurations et modi:fiant Ia

Loi sur Ia sante mentale, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 60- The Law Society Amendment Act Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cwnmings), that leave be given to introduce Bill 60, The Law Society Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Societe du Barreau, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii61-The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996 Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that leave be given to introduce Bill 61, The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1996 (Loi de 1996 modi:fiant diverses dispositions legislatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS (continued) Bon.

Leonard Derkach (Mi nister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, may I ask leave of the House to revert to Tabling of Reports. Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to revert to Tabling of Reports" An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Sup plementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Rural Development Expenditure Estimates and also for the Decentralization Expenditure Estimates.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon forty-six Grade 9 students from St. George School. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render). We also have twenty-five Grades 7, 8 and 9 students from Parkland Christian School under the direction of Dave Friesen. This school is located in the constituency - -

May 21, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2361 of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Bead ingley Correctional Institution Temporary Absences Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, last week we were asking some very direct questions dealing with an unfortunate murder, an alleged murder of an individual in Inwood, Manitoba, by a person who is alleged to be on a temporary absence from the correctional system here in Manitoba. When I asked the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) last week whether in fact the riot at Headingley played any

part in the temporary absences, the Minister of Justice said in the House that there were no special criteria applied to the release of inmates, and further went out into the hallway with the media and answered the question that the Headingley riot played no

part in the release of this individual or any other individual who was released with the temporary absence programs. The next day we read, and it is certainly consistent with what we have heard, that many people in the correctional system stated that in fact the riot did precipitate the release of some inmates. Between 62 and 70 inmates were released.

I would like to ask the Premier, why can we not have in Manitoba a Minister of Justice who will just tell us the truth straight up on these straight questions, and will the Premier give us a Minister of Justice who will tell Manitobans the truth when tough questions are posed in this Chamber? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that the Minister of Justice did provide the information accurately and that the releases were made within the existing criteria. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, the minister refuted the fact that the riot played any part and was contradicted later on by line correctional officers that we talked to and by senior correctional staff. It is regrettable today that the Premier has not taken action on a Minister of Justice who, to a large degree, is not being straight with the people of Manitoba. Can the Premier explain to Manitobans how the government could release an individual on a temporary absence policy who had two previous convictions of assault causing bodily harm within the last 12 months?

Where under the Filmon government criteria does this temporary absence policy fit, and how can this person get released if it was not for the fact that the government accelerated the releases due to the riot? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think that the member opposite is being manipulative with the facts, but I believe that the person to whom the member refers is the person who is charged with an offence that will be before the courts and so I am unable to provide him with a response to that matter. 1r

(1345) Mr. Doer: I asked the minister and the Premier the question not only about the discrepancy between what she said, that the riot played no part on the releases-in Hansard-and the answer we received the next day from senior correctional officials, not only the discrepancy on the facts that were posed in this Chamber, I am also asking a policy question to the government that is responsible for the policy of temporary absences.

I would like to ask the Premier, how does the policy of releasing an individual after seven weeks of a 16-week sentence who has had two previous convictions of assault causing bodily harm, how is that consistent with the Premier slamming the cell door? He should have told the public he was slamming it open rather than slamming it closed on behalf of Manitobans. How does that fit? [interjection] Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, the member opposite says, sit down- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Vodrey: Do they want the answer or not?

2362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 Madam Speaker, I, too, am referring to Hansard and the questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition, not the questions that he posed. The question was: "Were there any changes in governm ent policies based on the riot?" That was the question asked. Madam Speaker, my answers were clear then and are clear now. To my knowledge, there was not any change in our policies. As a matter of fact, I made it very clear that our policies are among the strictest across Canada.

Indi viduals who were assessed, having met the time frame for temporary absences which is stricter than in most other provinces, and also the criteria, those individuals assessed by professional correctional officers were those inmates who were considered for release. Had it been under the NDP when th€..'Y were in Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the member well knows that I am just not able to speak about an individual who is accused, what their past record is, what they are currently in the institution for. I am just not able to do that.

As the Attorney General, the information which I have to speak about an individual does come forward in court when there has been a charge laid. Madam Speaker, the member across the way, as he says even today, gave out information last week which was incorrect He admits that today. He gave out and he continues to give out information. He has, over the process of more than a week, continued to try and put out inform ation which he has had to later go back and correct, which is what he has done today.

Madam Speaker, I am not able to speak about- governm ent, those individuals would have been released Madam Speaker: Order, please. long before that. Headingley Correctional Institution Temporary Absences Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is for the Minister of Justice. Last Thursday it was our information from the Provincial Court that Mr. Rouire was serving on weekends. It has now come to our attention that indeed he was serving consecutive days at the time of the riot.

My question to the minister is if- and I quote her word s-there were not any special criteria given for temporary passes because of the riot, would she possibly explain how she could authorize the release of an inmate like Mr.

Rouire given our information that he was convicted February 6, '95, driver impaired, failing to comply with probation; April 10, '95, assault with intent to resist arrest, three counts of theft under a thousand; May 24 last year, assault, caused bodily harm, resist arrest; August 8, '95, assault, caused bodily harm, failure to comply with recognizance; March 4, break and enter, failure to comply with recognizance? How could he be released if there were not special criteria? How could they release him, having served less than half of his time? How could she do that? Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, our rules are quite clear. A very specific question was asked about the policies of this government, and this minister of all people should not lecture our critic about misinformation. I would like to ask you to not only call her to order but ask her to withdraw the comment she made about our Justice critic who is trying to get some straight answers from this Minister of Justice. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * *

(1350) Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, to quickly complete her response. Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much. It was the member for St. Johns who admitted that he was wrong last week and has attempted to correct on the record this week. Madam Speaker, he may feel the freedom within this Chamber to say whatever it is he likes about a -

May 21, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2363 particular individual who is currently charged before the court. I am not in a position to say that; however, I have answered in the broad sense that there were not changes to the criteria which are among the strictest in this country. Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, my supplementary is, would the minister who should recognize that we are not dealing with a case before the courts but rather her temporary pass policy and her truthfulness, will she tell Manitobans who made the decision to release Mr. Rouire? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, again, as in the case of all inmates who receive temporary absences or who were released at the end of the sentence, the decision was made, to my knowledge, as I am informed by my department, by professional correctional officers. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minister who 1s responsible for this department, for this decision and who said last week, and I quote, that some inmates have been released within approximately two weeks of their sentence completion, now admit that the word "some" actually meant at least 63 and that "within two weeks" was wrong, that some had months left to serve, that she misled Manitobans? Will she admit that and just get out of the way of justice in this province? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, as I explained last week, last week there were questions regarding temporary absences.

I am attempting to give the information as it is available to me. Some inmates, also, as I explained further Friday, were released at end of sentence time. So we are dealing with two separate opportunities in which inmates would be released. One is on a temporary absence, one at end of sentence, decisions as always made according to our criterion in Manitoba which was made stricter with our rigorous-confmement criterion in February 1995. However, Madam Speaker, as I said, I have been informed that there was no change in criteria either for temporary absences or in the criteria applied against those eligible.

However, members across the way have indicated some public debate. There is public interest in this area and so, in the interests of that public interest, I think it is important to have a third party review this because we believe that people should in fact know, and though I have explained the situation, I am prepared to very specifically add this to Ted Hughes's review.

Though he is able to review anything which is a concern to him, I will very specifically add the administration of temporary absences during and after the riot, whether or not correctional officials acted unlawfully, whether they acted unreasonably or whether they changed the criteria for release to increase eligibility. Headingley Correctional Institution Early Releas�Sexual Offenders Ms. Diane McGitford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my questions are also for the Minister of Justice.

After the Headingley riot several sexual offenders were prematurely released into the community though some had refused to take the counselling which facilitates understanding, assists in preventing recidivism and is supposed to be necessary for early release. Furthermore, I understand that not one was referred to the community notifications advisory committee, although one offender was serving 18 months, which suggests he posed a danger to the community.

My question to the minister: I want to ask the minister if she now is usurping the workings of the community notification advisory committee and personally deciding when it is in the public interest to alert citizens about the presence of a sex offender in the community. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, let me explain to the member that at the end of sentence there is a review and that in the past at approximately two-thirds of the sentence, inmates were in fact released.

Though it was called earned remission when the other side was in government, there really was not anything earned about it at all. When we moved to rigorous confinement, we changed the regulations and at two-thirds we have now said to people, you must earn your remission. In earning your remission, you should participate in programs; yes, you should in fact show that you have made some steps towards your rehabilitation. That was this government's rigorous confinement, so do not let them ever suggest that there was anything rigorous about what they did. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

2364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 Mrs. Vodrey: Well, they can laugh, but they certainly did not support it even when it carne forward to be more rigorous. However, Madam Speaker, there were in fact three inmates who were injured at the time of the riot and these three inmates were, to my knowledge, considered close to the end of sentence, and though they did not participate, they were in fact assessed by correctional officers. Their release was not on a specific authority or any paper that I signed. They were released under the direction of professional correctional officers. "'

(1355) Early Release-Domestic Abusers Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, given the minister's frequent commitment to end violence against women, both sexual and domestic violence, I want to ask the minister if any domestic abusers were released early and, if so, had they completed their counselling and anger management work? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the members across the way seem to be trying to put forward again further information to confuse the public.

They are using the term "63." Sixty-three is not the number of people who were released at the end of sentence time period. That is the number that you are using and I do not believe that number is correct. However, in terms of the numbers of individuals who were considered at the end of sentence-now, be very clear about what we are talking about-I am aware of the three of whom I have spoken to you about today, three who were injured within the riot, who had met the more than two-thirds criterion of serving their sentence, who were injured in the riots and were released on medical and humanitarian grounds.

Further than that, I will have to check with my department about anyone released at end of sentence, which was what the question was. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, the question was, were any domestic abusers released early and, if so, had they completed their counselling and anger management work? I want to ask the minister, if this is the case, how early release of these kinds of offenders against women and children help in ending violence and protecting community. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, well, as I said, we have a process of earned remission in which individuals are to take

part in programs to assist in their anger management and to provide rehabilitation in the area of domestic violence. I have explained that there were three, to my knowledge, who at end of sentence were released because they had met the two-thirds serving requirement, somewhat more, and also were released. Their release was on medical and humanitarian grounds. In terms of other information, I have said to the member I will have to check with my department and find out any details and provide her with that information. Coalition to Save Home Care Report Recommendations Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, this morning we saw the release of a report on public hearings conducted by Manitobans. The report is superior to anyt hing ever done by the governm ent and strongly recommends against privatization. The report raises concerns about privatization such as private operators skimming money from the system, the confidentiality of information that the clients hold and private operators being given a private monopoly. The report calls for specific responses from the minister.

I would like to ask the minister today, will he commit to provide specific public responses to every single one of the issues raised by Manitobans who took the time and energy to produce this outstanding document, Madam Speaker? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to tell the honourable member that, as a result of the ratification of the tentative agreement, we will have full restoration of home care services. I would expect that by tomorrow we should have everybody who was admitted to hospital returned to their homes where they ought to be.

The honourable member is looking for commitments; I commit my efforts to carrying out the spirit and the intent of that collective agreement arrived at by negotiation. -

May 21, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2365 *

(1400) Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health, who has avoided public hearings, who has avoided public scrutiny, at least commit in the House today that he will respond to the excellent suggestions and the excellent recommendations made by this group of Mani tobans who on their own shamed the government into reversing their stand on privatization? Will he at least take the time to respond specifically to every one of these recommendations? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the only avoidance is the avoidance of the honourable member. He avoids the fact that we live in the real world.

The honourable member was there at the Holiday Inn when I was there with about 500 or so home care workers and we were add ressing the issues that evening. I was not avoiding any issues when I was on the picket line in Brandon with the strikers and talking about home care and health care. The only way we are going to all get through the changes that are being imposed on us by the federal government with their cutbacks is together, working tog ether, locking arms and working together to see that we can bring about the best outcomes that we can for the clients of our home care system.

That is what I have been doing and will continue to do. Home Care Program Privatization-Nursing Services Mr. Dave Chorniak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health work with the overwhelming majority of Manitobans who have said they do not want privatization in the health care system, and will he tell us today, now that his plan to reduce privatization has gone from 100 percent to 20 percent, will he outline for us what the plans are for the nursing component of home care and the home support workers who are not part of the collective agreement?

Will he tell us what the plans are for the nursing component privatization and the home support worker privatization that are not part of the collective agreement? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member has just proved what I have been saying about he and his colleagues all along: when you do not have the evidence, make something up. He just fmished saying that we moved from 100 percent to 20 percent. He knows full well that what was on the table initially was a 25 percent competition in the city of Winnipeg only and through negotiation we worked that to 20 percent.

That seemed to me an honourable kind of compromise to be making. The union agreed with the competition in the home care marketplace to the extent of 20 percent. The honourable member cannot have it both ways. His own union friends have, by way of negotiation, come up with an agreement that we are prepared to live with, that they are prepared to live with, so the honourable member cannot come here and call it something that it is not. Communi ty Health Centres Home Care Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question too is for the Minister of Health.

The Coalition to Save Home Care did something which this government should have done and that is to have some form of public hearing to allow for clients, home care workers and other intere sted Manitobans to make presentations to the government. One of the recommendations is No. 6 and it states: examine other alternatives to the existing system, notably the Quebec model, which are also not for-profit publicly funded. We have, in the Liberal Party, been encouraging this government and this Minister of Health to look into the possibility of community health centres as providing home care services.

My question to the Minister of Health is, what is this minister prepared to do to ensure that community health centres will have a prominent role to play in the delivery of home care services? Bon. James McCrae (M inister of Health): We will certainly take the honourable member's suggestion, Madam Speaker. If the community health centres want to make some proposals, if they want to get involved in the process that we are about to embark upon, that would be welcomed as well. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, what is the Minister of Health prepared to do in order to facilitate community health centres to be able to participate in the process in terms of a workshop that would allow them to be better

2366 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 able to put in a bid through the whole process of the tender? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, we are extending to all interested parties as much assistance as is necessary for them properly to put their bids before that part of the organization that would be evaluating the bids, so that if a community health centre or some other agency out there has an interest in putting forward a bid on these contracts, let them be in touch with us. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the minister if he would concur with the remarks set forth by the community health centres, which was sponsored by the Manitoba Nurses' Union, in which it states, 30 years worth of studies in Quebec, Ontario and Saskatchewan have demonstrated that community health clinics are a better way to deliver health care. Does the minister concur with that and, if so, what is he prepared to do? Mr.

McCrae: In their more recent reports, the Manitoba Nurses' Union has indeed made some helpful observations and even some recommendations which, if carried forward, might indeed improve the outcomes in health care in Manitoba. We have said that we appreciate those types of recommendations coming from the Manitoba Nurses' Union.

I think we have been working-and our budgets demonstrate, I believe, that we have been working closely with the community health centres to ensure that the work they do in our communities is relevant to what the communities require, and there is lots and lots of evidence that is happening, Madam Speaker. Hughes Inquiry Tempor ary Absences Examination Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Given the minister's reporting that she has asked Mr.

Hughes to include the matter of the T.A. policy in his revie w, would the minister possibly explain to Manitobans that if in fact there has been no change in the temporary pass policy, why is Mr. Hughes asked to examine no change in policy? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Mi nister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the reason that I will be asking Mr.

Hughes, as I will be very specifically now asking him to examine this issue, is because this has become a matter of public debate, because it has become a matter of public interest and because I think it is very important that then a third party review the process and be able to report to Manitobans. That is why I will be asking him specifically, though I did say earlier, on the areas which he is free to examine he could examine that on his o�n. I believe it is important to specifically ask him to do that in the interests of the public. Minister of Justice Examination Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): My question to the minister is, would she explain, given that the issue before the public of Manitoba is her truthfulness and her lack of responsibility, accountability for what has happened her e-would she agree to allow Mr. Hughes to examine her under oath so Manitobans can understand what this minister is saying to them? Ron. Rosemary Vodrey (M inister of Just ice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I think it is very important to make sure that Manitobans know that I have been truthful to the best of my knowledge at all times in the answering of all questions.

To suggest an)thing less is just plain \\Tong. I have in fact been truthful to the best of my information, the best of my knowledge at all times, the information that has come to me from professional correctional officers. Of course, I and others will be happy to co-operate with Mr. Hughes in an)thing that Mr. Hughes asks. Manitoba Hydro Customer List A vail ability Ms. Mar yAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

With today's announcement of an agreement in principle to undertake a joint venture between the two major power utilities here in this province, Manitoba Hydro and Centra Gas, we have seen another step in the eventual road to the privatization of our Hydro utility. My question to the minister is, will the minister tell us if Hydro's customer list and other account information - -

May 21, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2367 will be made available to its largest power competitor in Manitoba? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, first of all, I must take issue with the premise of the member's question. This is a step that I think creates great efficiencies for these two utilities. They are allowed to service their clients in a more efficient manner and as the Public Utilities Board has indicated, in fact demanded, that Manitoba Hydro just do that to ensure that rates are sufficiently low cost.

With respect to the member's question about lists, obviously part of this is for this joint venture to share services such as meter reading and billing, and that involves exchange of information with respect to customer lists and where we have joint customers. Manitoba Hydro-Centra Gas Joint Venture Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, will the minister guarantee that the ownership of this new joint venture will be controlled by Manitobans? Hon. Dar ren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, this is a joint venture between two utilities.

The part of the joint venture that is Manitoba Hydro's is owned by Manitobans. We are the trustees of that investment. You know, members opposite want it both ways. When Manitoba Hydro went to the Public Utilities Board and asked for a rate increase, the Public Utilities Board in giving them a less-than-requested rate increase challenged them, in fact demanded of them to find ways to deliver services more efficiently. I ask honourable members opposite, should we have two people going to the same house to read meters when one can do it?

Should we be charging the ratepayers of two utilities double postage to send out two bills when one would do? Surely not. What they are asking is that Manitoba Hydro take money out of their customers' pockets to pay for inefficiencies and that need not be the case. *

(1410) Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my fmal question to the minister: Will he confirm that the newly reorganized Manitoba customer services business unit, which this minister and his Hydro executives just announced over a month ago, is now a prime target for elimination as a result of this joint venture? Mr. Pr aznik: Madam Speaker, absolutely not. If members opposite would take the time to get out of Jurassic Park for awhile and look at the future, they would realize that in the energy business today it is absolutely critical that our customers for energy are able to fmd competitive sources for that energy.

Manitoba Hydro and the gas utility working together to find new ways to be efficient and to provide new services between the two utilities that meet the needs of our common customer base is the future. Quite frankly, if we took the advice of the members opposite, we would ensure that Manitoba Hydro would have no future and would become an inefficient company and have to be privatized. This is the future to ensure a strong, competitive utility that is on a very strong financial footing. Linnet Geomatics International Inc. Contract Cancellation Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I want to table a document entitled Towards Developing a Vision and Action Plan for the Advancement of Manitoba's Geomatics Sector. The seven-year agreement with Linnet Geomatics has been an absolute failure in terms of its own directions. We have less than a third of the jobs of Canadian average in this sector. We do not have a base map in Manitoba that comes up to national standards. We are 1Oth out of 1 0 in terms of the quality of the base mapping information we have in Manitoba. I want to ask the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) whether he accepts now that on the basis of this study we are way behind the rest of Canada. Will he cancel this contract, end the monopoly and let Manitoba's industry begin to develop in a rational way?

2368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have not had an opportunity to see this study, but I do not accept very much of the analysis that is normally provided by the member for Crescentwood. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, in light of th{: fact that virtually all other players in the geomatics industry are prepared to go on record now saying that this has been a failure as a strategy, will the minister responsible for this agreement announce now that the monopoly will end on schedule, December 1996? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I have to express a little bit of disappointment at the approach that the member is taking because I have always been very open ·with information to the members opposite whether it is to do with flooding, whether it has to do with a European fur union and the same thing with Linnet. A few months ago, I had a two-hour briefing for members opposite trying to bring them up to speed of the complexities of the Linnet operation. At that time-[interjection] Madam Speaker, it is a complex matter.

At that time, I offered, after two hours of bri efing, to any member interested, that the CEO from Linnet would open his doors and give them all the information basically that anybody would want. Nobody has taken up that offer. I will tell you something. The disappointment I have is that the information based in the news release that the member for Crescentwood has just put out today does not have all factual information. In fact, there is a lot of the information that is not right. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, ·will the minister responsible for Linnet and the Linnet contract not agret! that the information in his own study by the Nordicity group in Toronto is in fact factual and correct, represents the truth in regard to the development of this industry in Manitoba, points out that many of the things that this government said had to be done seven years ago have not been done yet and that the jobs target is only at one-quartt!r of what it should be in terms of Linnet's 0\\11 promises to the government? Mr.

Driedger: What I would like to confirm is the fact that Manitoba and Linnet are known as leaders in terms of data information. We are kno-wn as leaders, and that is an accepted fact out there as well. Madam Speaker, the member is making reference to the 320 jobs and the $80-million investment that was required to bring it to that point. That was part of the projection at that time. I have to tell you that Manitoba has invested $5 million over the last years and we have 65 jobs that are involved right now, and that $5 million that Manitoba put in has basically been work in kind.

So the record is good I extend the offer again to members opposite, anybody that wants to have more detailed information, the CEO from Linnet. Bruce Graham, has offered, come and have a look, come dmm and investigate instead of making stupid statements to the public. Treat�· Land Entitlements Status Report Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker. my question is for the Minister of Northem and Native Affairs. About a month ago the minister was indicating that the settlement of treaty land entitlement was imminent, and he made similar comments last week to the Manitoba Mining Association meeting.

I would like to ask the minister what stage the negoti ations are at with respect to TLE and Manitoba Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker. a very timely question from the member for Rupertsland. Over a month ago, we held a very top-level series of discussions with the treaty land entitlement chiefs and agreed to or arranged a method, I think, of settling the outstanding issues. The federal government was brought into that by the chiefs. There was an exchange of correspondence which I believe lays the basis for that arrangement.

Currently, I understand, over the last month or so the treaty land entitlement chiefs have been working with their o\\n members. Going back. there have been a couple of particular Issues that had to be dealt with internally by those chiefs, which I understand is now happening. There was also an -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2369 outstanding issue between the Government of Canada and the treaty land chiefs with respect to legal costs for their solicitor which is in the process of being resolved. So, from a provincial prospective, I think we have worked through, in principle at least, most of the detail and we are awaiting the treaty land chiefs and the federal government resolving their outstanding issues so that we can get on with pencilling or signing an agreement in principle. Mr.

Robinson: Madam Speaker, to the same minister: I would like to ask him about the status of negotiations with the Mathias Colomb First Nation as well. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, again, another very timely question. A key to our involvement on treaty land entitlement was the offer we as a province have made to the treaty land entitlement chiefs to get on with selecting specific land and getting agreement on specific land selections and flowing that land to specific communities as those selections are agreed to.

With respect to Mathias Colomb, we made that offer to them to get on with specific selections in the area which was under dispute with Repap in the cutting area. They have gone back. There has been some exchange of correspondence, and I think we are getting very close to actually sitting down and getting to specific land selections.

One problem that has delayed this is the Mathias Colomb band, quite frankly, in that area had not made their own decisions yet as to which land they would request, and they have been undergoing a pretty extensive process to make those decisions before they came to the table with their requests. * (1 420) Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, my final question is a very brief one.

Given the support of the town of The Pas, of Repap, the Manitoba Mining Association, amongst others, encouraging this government to settle TLE in this province, I would like to ask the minister whether or not this government is committed to making this issue a major priority. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, not only are we absolutely committed to settling this, part of the disc ussions we had with the treaty land chiefs was that even if Ottawa would not conclude an agreement with them, we as a government were still prepared to get on moving specific agreed-to selections into a trust or some vehicle in which those communities could then use the land while they were waiting to fmish their negotiations with the federal government. So we in the Filmon administration are fully prepared to move land, as we get an agreement, without an agreement with Ottawa. So we have been prepared to do that.

With respect to Mathias Colomb, as I have indicated, as we get specific selection-some has been done to date-but in the area that was the subject of controversy, as they pick specific lands and we reach agreement on those specific lands, we are prepared to move them into whatever legal vehicle is necessary pending transfer to reserve status. Elk Ranching Disease Transmission Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, on December 21 of last year, the Minister of Agric ulture announced that his government would be implem enting elk ranching without any public input on what is a very controversial subject.

Since then, there has been a case of what is equivalent to mad cow disease diagnosed in Saskatchewan m domestic elk. Will the Minister of Agriculture agree that, in light of this diagnosis, this is not the time to start elk ranching in Manitoba, and will he put this plan on hold rather than putting at risk the domestic cattle herds in Manitoba? Hon.

Harry Enns (Min ister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, as a modest cattle producer myself, I certainly am more than aware of the current difficulties that the cattle producers are having not just in Manitoba but throughout the country, so let me assure her that I would be very concerned about putting at any risk that promising agricultural industry. With respect to the question of elk ranching, I hope to be in a position to introduce for second reading into this House very shortly the principles of the bill, and I would invite the honourable member to take up the issue at that time.

Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

2370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. During Question Period on May 8, 1996, I took under advi sement a point of order raised by the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) concerning words used by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in responding to a question. It was contended the First Minister imputed tmworthy motives to the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh) when the Premier said, "The only sadness, Madam Speaker, is that this member opposite should stoop so low as to try and profit by a situation in which people's lives were at stake and people suffered." Having reviewed Hansard, I am ruling that there was a point of order, and I am calling upon the First Minister to withdraw those comments. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, accept your ruling and withdraw those comments. Madam Speaker: I thank the honou rable First Minister. * * * Madam Speaker: I have a second ruling for the House.

During Question Period on May 13 , 19 96, I took under advi sement a point of order raised by the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) concerning words spoken by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Dov.ney) in responding to a question. The opposition House leader's point was that the Deputy Premier stated that the member for Thompson had broken the rules of the House in making refi!rence to the Premier who was out of the country. The opposition House leader, in raising his point of order, stated that he had made no specific reference to the Premier's inunediate presence or absence in the Chamber on May 13.

Hansard shows that what was said by the opposition House leader was, and I quote, "sin ce I did ask this question of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) before he le:ft on his overseas trip" and he further went on to say, "or do we have to wait now for the Premier to return from an overseas trip before we can get any resolution of this critical issue?" I believe that there was implicit in those statements a reference to the absence of the First Minister, and that is contrary to our rules and practices. I would ask the opposition House leader to withdraw the words he spoke. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): I withdraw them. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Thompson. Further, I am asking the Deputy Premier to withdraw what he said in regard to the honourable member for Thompson, that is. and I quote, "I get equally as upset with the member for Thompson who keeps breaking the rules of the House". as it is clearly unparliamentary to allege that another member breaks the rules. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I withdraw. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Deputy Premier. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS YM- YWCA Women of Distinction Mrs.

Sh irley Render (St. Vital): It is my pleasure today to bring to your attention the winners of the YM YWCA Women of Distinction Awards Din ner held Wednesday, May 8, 19 96. Each year this event gives us an opportunity to honour those women in our community who have excelled in many fields of endeavour, fields such as community volunteers, teachers, professors, busin esswomen, scientists, nurses. doctors, lawyers, fitness, recreation and sports professionals. artists, musicians, public servants, athletes and cultural activists. This year marked the 20th armiversary of the awards ditmer.

The original format for the awards \vas to choose winners from specific categories such as the arts or community service. In 19 91, the format was changed to the selection of five award winners without defining categories. This year, the women of distinction were : Di ane Dwarka, first multicultural information specialist of the Manitoba Education and Training Library; Yvonne La Freniere, Manitoba's Special Ol)'mpics coach, fundraiser, strategic plarmer and communicator; Anne Jorowsky, founder and director of Share Christmas, a - -

May 21, 19 96 LEG ISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2371 program that collects, refurb ishes and distributes thousands of toys for needy Winnip eg children each year. * (1430 ) The fourth was the Women Business Owners of Manitob a. This group provides peer support and ideas and sharing among female entrepreneu rs. The fifth award winner was Ginnie Hasselfleld who introduced new concepts to busin ess, education and social group s, established cross cultural consulting, created and developed the first computer-based training program in North America on diversity management.

Although there were only five award winners , it should be noted that all of the 25 nominees are outstanding women who are dedicated to their work and to their communities. I am especially pleased to tell you about the recipient of the Gerrie Hammond Memorial Award of Promise. Her name was Hygiea Dela Cruz from River East Collegiate. Madam Speaker, I now ask you to join with me in congratulating all of the YM-YWCA women of distinction . Evergreen Foundation of Manitoba Mr.

Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, this spring I had the pleasure and opportunity to attend the Evergreen Foundation of Manitoba Third Annual Dinner at the Arborg Community Centre. This event was held to honour this year's inductees to the Evergreen Foundation Hall ofFame. All of this year's inductees have contributed a great deal not only to the education system but to the community as a whole. Their dedication and contributions to improving their communities will not soon be forgotten .

In recognition of their achievements and contrib utions, I would like to honour the hard work and dedication over the years of Mr. John H. Menzi es, Miss Sigurbj org Stef ansson and posthumously to Mr. Sigurdur G. W opnford on being included into the Evergreen Foundation Hall of Fame. In addition to reco gnizing the new inductees, Madam Speaker, the Evergreen Foundation also took the opp ortunity to award scholarships to two outstanding persons from within the community.

One of the scholarships was awarded to Tanya Kozera from the community of Fraserwood, who is a mature student currently attending the University of Manitoba with the intention of receiving a physiotherapy degree. Miss Kozera is currently studying in England for four mont hs. The Evergreen Foundation also awarded a scholarship to Kimberly Arnold. Miss Arnold, who is from Gimli, is currently in the third year of a bachelor of arts program at Brandon Univer sity. She hopes to pursue a masters degree in either social work or psychology.

Again, Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate both these students on being awarded the Evergreen Foundation scholarship s, and I wish them luck and good fort une. Brandon Wheat Kings Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, over the course of the past few weeks this House has heard many well-deserved accolades credited to Manitoba's Western Hockey League champions, the Brandon Wheat Kings. This past weekend, in Peterborough, Ontario, the Wheat Kings took their quest for the Memorial Cup to the semifinals against the host Peterborough Petes and fell just short of their goal.

Yet, while I am certain that the members of the team and all of their loyal fans had hopes of a tournament victory, this Wheat Kings team will be remembered as champions for its own special reasons. I have been fortunate to get to know many of these players and their families personally, and I had the pleasure to be in attendance this past weekend to bear witness to see these quality individuals in action. While they did not bring home the Memorial Cup, I am proud of their gallant effort.

Picked to finish fourth in its own division by many at the be ginning of the year, this team, led by 17 Manitobans, ignored the hockey experts as with a combination of speed, size and solid goaltending, they proved themselves to be the class of the western division.

2372 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 19 96 The Wheat Kings did more than repr esent themselves well on the ice, however. This group of young men trave lled throughout western Manitoba, the northwest United States and Ontario and repre sented our province as worthy ambassadors .

Madam Speaker, at a time when the media seems focused on what is wrong with our young people, I hold this group up as an exmnple of what is right with Manitoba's youth Madam Speaker, in the years to come, it will not be the scores or the standings that this team or its players will be defined by, it will be the character and class with which they conducted themselves and repre sented our pro vince. In that regard, every member of this team is a true champion.

While I am certain that each member of this Legislature jo ins with me in congratulating the Memorial Cup champion Granby Predateurs , I am equally certain that each Manitoban recognizes the best team, defined by more than what takes place on the surface of the i:ce. calls Brandon home. Along with my colleague the honour able Minist er of Health (Mr. McCrae), we offer sincere congratulations to each member of the team and their coach Bob Lowes, and I wish them well as they prepare to defend the Western League championship in the 19 96-97 season.

Congratulations are also in order to Bob Lowes and his wife Shelley who gave birth to their son while the team was in Peterborough . Thank you. Madam Speaker. Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Entertainment Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation runs three casinos in Winnipeg, controls the operation of video lottery termin als in lounges and bars and runs all of these at great profit, to date more than $23 0 million annually. Apparently this is not enough . The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation plans to spend over $1 million on robotic sirens to lure gamblers into the casinos.

McPhillips will have a mechanized bm·bershop quartet and Club Regent a robotic calypso band. Whatever happened to real music? Manitoba has long been recognized as having talented, successful local musicians. Money spent on robots could have been spent on local bands which would generate employment and add to the tax base. Manitoba could have copied the intelligent Regina casino model but, instead, the Minister respo nsible for Lotteries (Mr. Stefanson) went to the U.S. and spent one million Manitoba dollars on robots.

The current governm ent claims to be worried about gamblers crossing the border and losing their money. This is a problem that \\ill not be redr essed with wailing, windup toys. Living, breathing musicians might have helped people. The government continues to display greed when it comes to the operation oflottery schemes in the province . They drag their heels when it comes to sharing revenues with rural municipalities and First Nations communities and now with local musicians. It is time to take a close look at the progressive revenue sharing plans of sister pro vinces , first Saskatchewan but even Alberta.

It is time to show some regard for our culture and heri tage. Leave off the Philistine practices and stop insulting Manitoba by purchasing expensive Disn ey products with our Manitoba revenue . Thank you. North Dakota Museum Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker. I had the pleasure of attending a ribbon-cutting ceremony and an opening of the North Dakota Museunt located at Pembina, North Dakota. and accompanying me was the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Dmmey) for this province and his wife Linda.

The Pembina state museum will serve as a regional museum and a state historical society for Nor th Dakota and a state tourism centre. The people of Pembina, North Dakota built a 11 0-foot high tower with an 85 -foot observation deck which will allow\isitors to view the whole of the Red River Valley in that area. The museum store offers regional books and gifts for sale and it ,,; ll offer also a permanent exhibit gallery featuring fossils, tools of the fur trade, of the steamboat era, and of the American Indians and the Metis people.

Also, of course, one of the features will be a disp lay of the Selkirk colonists and agriculture. and the tmportance of the transportation industry to the region and this to\\n . - -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2373 I think it is important to note, Madam Speaker, that Manitoba finished a $1 00-million twinning of Provincial Tnmk Hi ghway 75 this last year to the town of Pembina, and the American market that has opened up to Winnip eggers and Manitobans in export of agricultural and manufactured goods is only second to one other province in this country. We have incre ased our export sales by 31 percent this past year to the U.S.

The people ofPembina, North Dakota recognize the potential of the traffic down 1-29 and 75 high way and also the potential that the trade-negotiated agreements have offered to them. They have taken advantage of that. They are building a tourism industry and we congratulate them for doing that. That is, of course, in conjunction with the Manitoba tourism centre that was built last year, and we certainly welcome that new initiative by North Dakotans. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr.

Gillesh amm er), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

As noted, it will be in the Chamber, Labour followed by Civil Service Commission followed by the Department of Natural Res ources and the continuing consideration of the Esti mates of the Department of Family Services in the commit tee. * (14 40) Madam Speaker, before I moved that motion I should have indicated that I believe there is agreement amongst all members of the House that for Thursday morning next we would waive private members' time in lieu of the Estimates process which would start at 9 a.m. instead of 10 a.m.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House waive private members' hour Thursday morning, and continue in Committee of Supply from 9 a.m. to 12 noon? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: And the Supply motion, Madam Speaker. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Family Service s; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Labour, the Civil Service Commission and the Department ofNatural Resources.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concur rent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. De puty Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon thi s

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume conside ration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last met it was considering item 1. Administration and Finance (

e) Management Servi ces

(4) Policy and Planning (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 52 of the Estimates book and that is $704,700. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Serv ices): Mr. Chairp erson, on a couple of previous sittings of thi s committee I undertook to get some information and provide it to my honourable friend the critic for the New Democratic Party and also for the Liberal critic, so I am now going to table with the committee the grants to external agencies for 1996-97. I believe the critic for the Liberal Party would be the member for The Maples if it is the same critic as last year.

Also, I undertook to get some information on overexpenditures in the deputy's and the minister's offices for my honourable friend for the 19 94-95 fiscal year. Under the transportation line, the overexpenditure was $1 6,900 and that was as a result of three trips, one the deputy, myself and staff went to Chicago to visit Project Match which is a project run by the community for single parents on social allowances. That is when we were doing our consultation and work around the single-pa rent initiati ve. The other two were international conferences that the deputy attended.

One was by invitation of the federal government, the U.N. Summ it on Social Services in Copenhagen, Denmark, and the other was the Global Welfare Conference in Norway that were attended. There was an overexpenditure for $2,900 on the Communications line, and that was as a result of a very busy year in the Department of Family Services with us

2374 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 being the lead department on International Year of the Family and the public consultation process that was part of a single parent initiative that ended up in our decision to imp lement the Taking Charge! pilot pro ject with the fe deral governme nt. On Supplies and Services, there was an overexpenditure of $8, 100 and that was increased costs fo r fa x, fo r photo copying, computer maintenance and office supplies, again because of the very busy year with International Year of the Family and the single parent initiative.

Under the Other Expenditures there was an overexpenditure of $11,100, and a considerable: amount of that money was as a result of the conf erences attended by the deputy internationally and the Chicago trip that both the deputy and I attended. Staff training, business meetings regarding program pl anning, all of those things were a result.

I would like to indicate, although there was a considerable overexpenditure in 1994-95, although the final figures are not tallied fo r 1995-96 with the exact actuals, that we are almost at budget maybe slig htly overexp ended, very slightly , and that would be a result of my travel by invitation of the Premier to the Western Premiers Conf erence-it was in Saskatchewan--and my duties on the ministerial council by request of the Premier. So we are down; 1994-95 was an unusual year as far as expenditures go, and those kinds of trips were not fo reseen when the budget was set. Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burro ws): Mr.

Chairperson, I would like to thank the minister fo r providing answers to those questions and also fo r providing the grants to external agencies list and also fo r agreeing to have staff here fo r Family Disputes later this afte rnoon. Is the minister prepared to answer questions about the grants to external agencies this afternoon? Mrs. Mitchelson: They are within various divisions. will answer what I can if staff are here to provide those answers.

Rather than having staff coming back and fo rth, ifthere are certain questions that need to be answered at a later time, we could put staff on notice when they are here under their line, and we can answer those questions then. Mr. Martindale: Okay. I really only have questions speci fically about CNIB . I think most of the other que stions will come under departments like Child and Family Service s, and I think my questions on CNIB are mostly polic y issues. If the minister is prepared to answer those this afternoon that would be appreciated. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think, yes, we probably have some staff here in the room that could help \\ith answers to questions on CNIB , if we could just take a minute to have them come to the table. Mr. Marti ndale: I would like to begin with general questions and then move into more specifics.

Could the minister tell me if she believes that in a general way, because her department gives substantial amounts of money to the external agen cies, and using CNIB as an example who get a grant this year of $968,000, whether she believes that the government has an important role to play. or even has a role to play in providing some guidance and direction to these external agen cies? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr Chairperson.

I thank my honourable friend fo r that question. because although we do provide support to external agencies to deliver a lot of the service that very \ulnerable people need through the Department of Family Servic es. I think we always have to measure the success of those dollars spent by the outcomes that we see as a result of the expenditure. In many instances it is a considerable expenditure. *

(1450) I think from time to time it is important that we evaluate the kind of service that is being provided with taxpayers' dollars to those organizations that are there to deliver a service fo r the people who require that service. I think it is extremely important that, although we do not want to be hands-on as a government depa rtment-othenn se we \Vould deliver the sen·ice ourselves-we do expect there is value fo r the dollar that is provided and that the people who need the sen·ice are getting that service. Mr. Martindale: I can appreciate that the minister does not want to run these agen cies.

On the other hand, in the past, when there have been problems in external agenc ies. stafffrom the minister's department have gone in to help them through their problems or crises. I think the - -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2375 government has a role that is greater than just measuring outcomes, so I would like to ask the minister if she is willing to provide direction to agencie s, because in many of these cases the government is the major funder. Mrs. Mi tchelson: Over the last number of years, the Dep artment of Family Services has embarked upon a process to have service and funding agreements with all of the external agencies that we provide funding to, so we know what service we are purchasing at what cost.

CNIB, if that is what my honourable friend is referring to, we are attempting yet to get that service and funding agreement with them. Absolutely, if there are people who are supposed to be receiving a service from an agency that we provide tax dollars to and those services are not being received, it is important for us to find out why and to try and ensure that those who are being served are receiving the help they need. Mr. Martindale: If the minister's department are in the process of negotiating a service and funding agreement with CNIB, then perhaps my questions are quite relevant and timely here.

I guess I will get down to some more specifics. Individuals have raised concerns with me about the membership process or the membership by laws of CNIB, saying that they are not open, because it is a very complex formula where people have to be nominated for membership, which is really quite unusual. I think part of the problem here is that their constitution I believe goes back to something like 1918 and has not been moderni zed.

Is this the kind of issue that the minister, in negotiating the service and funding agreement, would be willing to raise with CNIB and suggest that they at the very least democratize their membership process? Mrs. Mitchelson: We too in the department have heard the issues that have been raised today by my honourable friend. We have been in dialogue and discussion with CNIB, and they have agreed to conduct an internal review of their organization and operations. It certainly is one of the issues that can be looked at in con junction with negotiations towards a service and funding agreement. Mr.

Mart indale: I guess I would like the minister to take a little stronger action than just acknowledging that there is an internal review underway. My understanding is that clients ofCNIB wishing to become members must complete an application form, acceptance of the app lication for membership must be proposed and seconded in writing by two members in good standing, and the application is forwarded to the council for consi deration. The application must then be approved by a majority vote of the council.

I think this is a very convoluted membership requir ement which I have never heard of before in any other organization, and I am wondering if the minister would be prepared to say to CNIB that this is really unacceptable. Mrs. Mi tchelson: My understanding is that the rules and regulations that govern CNIB come from their national body. I do not know whether at the local level how much impact they actually have on making change in that respect.

But I want to go back to saying -and my honourable friend raises a good question-there is an is sue always around support to people who need support, whether it be directly from a government department or those external agencies that we fund. This is one issue that my honourable friend raise s. There are others that have been raised around CNIB, and we have attempted through the department to the best of our ability to try to facilitate a positive resolution to some of those issues. There was an issu e around the deaf/blind community that we worked very aggressi vely on to try to find a solution.

I think we have come up with a solution that everyone can live with. I want to assure my honourable friend that if there are iss ues and circumstances where people are feeling that the money that we are providing to an external agency is not doing the kinds of things that need to be done for the people who need their service, that we look into that and we try to fmd a resolution. I make a commitment to that and to the community.

We collect and spend, on behalf of taxpayers, a cons iderab le amount of money in the Department of Family Services, and if the dollars that are being spent are not going to serve the people who need our help, we need to look at ways of finding better ways of ensuring that the services and the programs get into the hands of the people who need those programs and those service s. Mr. Martindale: Well, it seems to me that it is an is sue of more than just the quality of the service that is

237 6 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 19 96 provided. I am also concerned about how consumers of the service are involved in delivery and in decisio n making, and some organizations I think have be:en quite progressive involving consumers. In fact, the first time I heard the expression "consumers" was when I cochaired a conference for the Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba branch, and they involved consumers on their board and in all their committees. I think that is a very good model that other organizations should try to follow.

With CNIB, there is no reason why they cannot have more consumers providing service and on their board of directors and on committees so that there is more accounta bility in terms of the service that is being delivered. Right now, I think there is a lack of accountability and I think there could be improvements. * (15 00) Is the minister in favour of seeing more consumers on the board and on committees so that they have a greater say in how services are delivered? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I cannot ultimately determine who might be included on a board or on comm ittees.

What we can do as government is ensure accountability for the dollars that we provide to agencies or organizations to deliver services on our behalf, and if those people who are needing the service are not getting that service, we want to ensure that there is accountab ility. We will have to look at some way of ensuring that whoever is delivering the service is doing it to best meet the needs of the people who require the support.

I cannot and should not, as the minister, interfhe with an organization and their by-laws or rules and regulations, but I can say to you that if an organization that is delivering service on behalf of my department is not delivering the service in the appropriate, accountable, efficient fashion that needs to happen, we can take steps to indeed ensure that that service gets provided in a way that is accountable to the people who need the support and the help. Mr.

Marti ndale: Well, I think that this minister has considerable clout, because the grant to CNIB is almost a million dollars a year, and I think that is reason enough, since this minister contro ls the purse strings, to exercise some of her authority and provide direction to the organization.

One of the complaints that was passed on to me and I assume to the minister as well is that the agency is mana ged from the top down and that, although divisio nal regions and branch offices can set up advisory boards and com mittees, they are prevented from initiating policies or actions unless approved by the national council or are within existing national policies. So the organization appears to be quite hierarchical.

The Manitoba division is a division of a national organization, but their funding is from the prov ince of Manitoba in large part, so I think that the accou ntability should be to the taxpayers of Manitoba. I think that the minister has the authority and the where·withal to require more account ability m Manitoba. Would the minister agree? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, although my honourable friend and I might be saying things a little differently, I think we both agree that tax dollars that are spent to deliver any sen·ice to people who are in need. need to be spent in an efficient and an effective and an accountable \\ay, and the dollars should be going into the hands of the people who need the sen·icc through pro gramming or direct sen·ice delivery. If. in fact. that is not happening, I cannot control the exact direction that any organization or agency takes. but I can. in fact. control how the dollars are flowed to ensure the sen·icc is delivered.

So I do not think we arc saying things differently. think we both have the same ob jective. and that is to sec that the clients or the consumers have the best program possible to meet their needs, and I am committing today, as I have committed in the past and to many who come into my office and sit around my table and express concern about the sen·ice that they are receiving. if. in fact, there is not accou ntability for the tax dollars that are being expended. we are going to have to find a better way of delivering that sen·ice, and I am committed to that. Mr.

Martindale: I am wondering if the minister believes that the most effective way to provide this service is through an agency that has a monopoly on pro viding the service and is not controlled by a group that it is supposed to sen·e. Would it not be better to have control in the hands of people who understand the needs of the client group the best and to make changes to ensure that that is possible? - -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2377 Mrs. Mi tchelson: I need to clarify that we are not the only funder ofCNIB. The service that we purchase from them and the service agreement that we are trying to get put in place provides for vocational rehab . That is for job finding, job placement, for vocational counselling and for career path development, so that is what our dollars flow for through CNIB. The United Way is another fairly significant funder of CNIB, and I know they get some money from their national body or national organization.

I still go back to saying that we will, we do, and I do, meet from time to time with consumers of the service, plus the CNIB, and my ultimate goal is to ensure that the dollars being granted to CNIB are used in the way they should be used to ensure that the services that we purchase from them are being provided to the clients that need that service. I am prepared to meet at any time with any group of consumers or any individual consumer that feels that their needs are not being met, and we will try to facilitate a solution. Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for those answers.

She can be sure that the people who met with her staff and the people that I met with will be given all those answers . They will be happy to hear that the minister is going to meet with them as well. On the list of grants to external agencies, can the minister tell me if the grants are frozen at the previous level or increa sed or decr eased? Mrs. Mitchelson: The grants provided on this listing all received a 2 percent reduction in this year's budget, as did grants right across government, except for daycare centres and homes and child and family services agencies. * (1 510 ) Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask some questions on line 9. 1(e). I have been reading the annual report, and it is just a little gold mine of inform ation. If I can go back to that line- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. 9. l. (e) 4 or 5? Mr. Martindale: Policy and Planni ng. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Policy and Planning, that is where we are . Mr. Martindale: Well, just to help the minister and her staff, I am on page 20 of the '94-95 annual report, and I read with intere st the

section on intergovernmental rela tions . I would like to ask the minister how much money was spent approximately on the International Year of the Family? Mrs. Mitchelson: There was an International Year of the Family Secretariat that was set up that was separate. You have to reme mber that this was back in 19 94-95. It was not this last fiscal year, or it is not this fiscal year, so any curr ent inform ation, I think that may be available, but it is not information that would be here today. I can try to get that information. It has probably been answered at some point in time.

It may have even been answered in Question Period last year or the year before . I know there was a certain budget appropriation for International Year of the Family, and I could try to get that information and provide it, but it is not readily available today. Mr. Martindale: I think it was in the area of$200,000 or $300,000, approximately. Could the minister tell us why no staff or money has been allocated to the International Year for the Eradication of Poverty? Mrs.

Mitchelson: My honourable friend may recall, I arrived in the Department of Family Services partway through International Year of the Family or the organization of that, and the organization had been going on for about a year previous to the actual year that celebrated International Year of the Family.

My hono urable friend will recall, and I am just reminded that it was the federal government that reached out to provinces and asked all of us to participate in International Year of the Family in some manner, and they had an organization or a secretariat that came out and spoke to all provinces and were partners in that initiative , spearheaded by the federal government . So provinces did respond , and I have to say that for the dollars that were spent in organization in the province of Manitoba we received great benefit.

I think that communities responded in a very major way, and there was a lot of media participation, a lot of in-kind contribution and a lot of organizations that participated, but it was spearheaded by the federal government and the

237 8 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 19 96 informa tion and the packages were distributed to provinces by the federal government. So it was by invitation to participate that we participated, same as the U.N. Year for the Eradication of Poverty. I would have anticipated that the federal government would have co ordinated som ething. We have not been contacted in any way, and there has been no initiative to respond to by provmc es. Mr.

Martindale: Well, it really does make sense for this minister not to sponsor an international year for the eradication of poverty in Manitoba since she reduced social assistance rates and increased the level of poverty in Manitoba. So at least the minister is being consistent. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess Manitoba is not unlike British Columbia, which has a New Democratic government, or Saskatchewan, that has a New Democratic government. I think both of those governments participated in International Year of the Family by invitation of the federal government.

I have not heard from or been communicated to by the NDP min ister of social services in British Columbia or Saskatchewan that they have any initiative that they have undertaken to respect this year, so I take some exception to the comments by my honourable friend that he would single Manitoba out when he knows that his cousins in the New Democratic Party across the country have not initiated anything to, I am not going to say celebrate, because it is nothing to celebrate, to do an)thing in a proactive way in their respective jurisdictions. Mr.

Martindale: The minister had a role in hosting and chairing meetings at the official ministerial level when, I guess, she was the senior minister for social services for all the provinces or when it was her turn as the minist er to host, and hosting that meeting in Winnipeg has already garnered considerable publicity. Since the minister has already apologized on national TV for some of those expenses, I think it would be unfair of me to repeat them on the record here.

However, I would like to ask a couple of questions about things that are not a matter of public record yet, and that is, how much did it cost to hire a comedia n for the dinner at Le Beaujolais restaurant, an impersonator, I understand? Mrs . Mi tchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we do not have a breakdown for that. I understand that the request that came from the media around the Folk Arts Council entertainment was provided to the media, and I will have to get some breakdo\\n and some detail and provide that information on specific breakdown. Mr.

Martindale: Were there any expenses that might have been paid for by the minister? Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Chairperson, in what respect? Mr. Martindale: Were there any expenses that were not paid for by the minister's department that might have been paid for in some other way, for example, by the minister or even reimbursed by the minister personally? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, in relation to expenses for the ministerial conf erence, I may have had personal expenses that I paid for, but there would be nothing that would be related to the conference. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 9. l. (e)

(4) Policy and Planning (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $704, 700- pass; l. (e)

(4) Other Expenditures (b) $223 ,00 0-p ass. 9. l. (e)

(5) Residential Care Licensing (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: I believe that this was part of the minister's department that I asked the staff to do an investigation, and they did and some recommendations were made. I appreciate the prompt follow-up to my inquiries by the minister's staff in residential care licensing and, in fact they are going to do a reinspection I belie ve in June of this year. So I will probably be in touch with the staff again to see if the problems were perman ently cleared up or whether they had to reprimand the agency again. I have no questions for l. (e) (5). Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 9. l .(e)

(5) Residential Care Licensing (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3 I I ,200 - pass; l. (e) (5) (

b) Other Expenditures $3 3,3 00-pass. 9.2. Income Security and Regional Operations (

a) Central Directorate (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,1 49,900. * (1 520 ) Mr. Mart indale: I believe this is the part of Incom e Security that is responsible for investigating allegations - -

May 21, 19 96 LEG ISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 237 9 of welfare fraud and responsible for overpayment recovery. Is that correct? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes. Mr. Martindale: Well, I have a number of questions here. Could the minister tell us how many phone calls were received by the welfare fraud line in the fiscal year '95-96? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, from the end of June 19 94 until the end of February 19 96, there were around 6,200 calls. Mr. Martindale: What was the result of those calls? How many were considered for charges of some kind or another? Mrs. Mitch elson: Mr.

Chairpers on, as a result of the calls, there were 723 cases closed, and there was corrective action taken for assessment of overpayment for 297 cases. Mr. Martindale: How many charges were laid? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, charges are laid in conjunction with the Crown and the police. There have been very few charges laid. There are two different processes that can be used. One is char ges under the Criminal Code, and the other is charges under The Social Allowances Act.

I do not have the exact numbers, although I can indi cate to my honourable friend that it is a small number, and I will get those numbers and provide them. Mr. Martindale: I thank the minster for that. We will come back to that later today or tomorrow then. I see the ministe r's staff have their calculators with them today, so could they tell me what percentage 723 files closed is of 6,200 complaints? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it is about 12 percent. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me what percent 297 is of 6,200? Mrs. Mitchelson: It is about 5 percent . Mr.

Martindale: I assume that in addition to the welfare fraud line that staff are constantly doing inve stigations. I wonder if the minister can tell me how many investigations were done by staff in the department in addition to the welfare fraud line. Mrs. Mitchelson: We do not have that here, but we will get some stats and provide that information. Mr. Martindale: I understand that the investigation unit or audit unit are looking at all kinds of government recor ds. I wonder if the minister can confirm that staff have access to wills and estates. Mrs.

Mitchelson: The information that we do obtain from time to time, and it is all information that is publicly available, if it is through the Land Titles Office or whatever, if it is public information, that is information that we can use through the department to check. Mr. Mar tindale: Well, let us just go through the list here . I understand that court information regarding wills and estates is being checked for possible welfare fraud. Is that correct? * (1530 ) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes. Mr. Martindale: And alimony payments? Mrs.

Mitchelson: There is sharing of information between Maintenance Enf orcement and our office. Mr. Martindale: And Autopac settlemen ts? Mrs. Mitchelson: When we are providing for basic needs through social allowance for any individual, there is a waiver form that is signed that allows us to check information in order to receive the payment. We use that, I guess, in var ious ways to determine eligibili ty. Mr.

Martindale: I am familiar with the form and the authorizations but, if the department is going to get inf ormation about Autopac settlement s, then presumably they are making contact with Autopac and, if so, do they have some sort of agreement to get that information?

2380 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 19 96 Mrs. Mitchelson: We do not have a formal agreement with Autopac, but there is some informal dialogue and disc ussion. But we would not check anything unless there was written consent of the individual. Mr. Marti ndale: I have been told that the reach is going back approximately 10 years in order to verify possible welf are fraud. Is this accurate or not? Mrs. Mitc helson: It all depends on the nature of the case.

There may be instances where if there is an indication that there may have been some fraudulent activity that we would go back several years, but it is on a cas e-by-case basis. I am informed that it is based on the inf ormation that exists around the individual circumstances. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that the key to ensuring fm ancial accountability is frequent contact between clients and program administrators. Can the minister tell us what the average caseload is of financial workers to clients? Mrs. Mitchelson: We have two types of workers. We have financial workers and the case cow1s ellors.

Financial workers have a caseload of about 400, and the case managers have a caseload of around 250. Mr. Martindale: Have those caseloads been going up in recent years or are they relatively stable? Mrs. Mitchelson: They are relatively stable. Mr. Martindale: My understanding is that city Social Services staff may have ratios of st aff-to-cases of up to 1 to 800. Is the minister aware of this? Mrs.

Mitchelson: We do not have that kind of detail on the City of Winnipeg and their staffmg arrangements , but it is very difficult for us to compare, because they do organize their workload, I am told, in a considerably different fashion than we do. We may gain more information and have a better understanding of how the City of Winnipeg mana ges their caseloads and th1�ir staff to-client ratio as we move closer to understanding what a one-tiered welf are system will look like in thf: City of Winnipeg. We do not have that information. They are not employees of my department.

I guess the question might best be asked of officials at the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Martindale: Does the minister plan to keep most or all of the city Social Services staff on when the two systems are amalgamated, so that we do not end up with very high ratios of staff to clients? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think it is premature to even speculate on what a one-tier system might look like in the City of Winnipeg. Presently, we have a steering committee and a consultant working together to develop a business plan.

Once we have an understanding of �hat that business plan might look like, then we will be able to determine more easily what needs to happen with the one-tiered system. I guess the main focus of that system would be to try to ensure that the best senice available for the client is there and that we run an efficient and an effective system with support, where it is needed for employment opportunity or for training, recognizing that the focus on any system that we have in place has to be on employability first.

That is what welf are reform is all about, trying to ensure that everyone who has the ability to work has the opportunity to seek employment or to find training that would lead to employment. Mr. Mart indale: Is the minister moving to direct deposit for provincial social assistance clients? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, that is one of the systems that we will be looking at when we look at building a new program for one tier. We are not doing it in the interim, but we will be looking at the feasibility of that. Mr.

Ma rtindale: Does the minister realize that in addition to possibly some advantages of direct deposit that one of the disadvantages is that there is less contact between clients and social assistance recipients, and \\ith elec tronic banking it means that someone could potentially be out of province or out of country and it would take much longer for this kind of welf are fraud to be detected? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, of course, all of that v.ill have to be taken into consideration. I think we need to look at the pros and the cons of any change.

As we are building a one-tiered system in the City of Winnipeg, one system or the other will have to change and there will - -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 23 81 have to be something take place, so we will pursue that as we move along. I want to indicate to my honourable friend that we are a little ways away from a one-tier system. We are looking a year down the road. I do not think we want to rush into somethin g. We have made the commitment to do it and we will do it, but I do not think we want to rush into putting in place a system until it is thought through in a very compreh ensive way to ensure that we have the best system possible when it is up and running. * (1 540) Mr.

Ma rtindale: Well, if it is only a year down the road, I better ask my questions now. It might be too late next year in Estimates, although given the amount of time it took the minister to proclaim The Vulnerable Persons Act which has not been proclaimed yet and Taking Charge ! program which took a long time to get off the road, I may get a seco nd crack at this . But just in case I do not, my concern is that when the two systems are amalgamated that the worst possible outcome would be that the lowest common denominator of each system would be adopted, so a numbe r of questions flow from that.

For example-and the minister and I have had this out in Question Period bef ore-I believe that many of the staff in the city Social Servi ces system are better trained because, fo r examp le, they have many more people with social work degre es, Maste r of Social Work de grees , than I believe the province has. So I would like to ask the minister if she plans to keep on those staff who have social work degre es. Mrs. Mi tchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think it is premature to comme nt even on what the system might look like.

We have a steering committee comprise d of senior officials at both levels of government that are working together. There has been a commitment by the City of Winnipeg at the political level to pursue a one tiered system, and they have asked us many times to-it ju st does not seem to make sense to them to have two levels of government delivering a welf are servi ce. Given our welf are reform initiatives, and the announcements that were made most recently , some of those that are now on provincial welfare will become employabl e.

We have always had the unemployable caseload at the province, and the city has had the employab le caseload. It is very timely when we look at changing the definition of who is employable and who is not to determine how to best manage that system. You can imagine there would have been a fa irly major outcry if we had-once we made the decision to change the work expectations for single parents with children in school, if we decided to transf er those over to the municipal caseload because they were now employa ble, you might have heard a major outcry from the City of Winnipeg.

So we are going through a time of change and a proce ss of change. You know, my honourable friend thinks that the staff at the City of Winnipeg is better than the staff that is hired in the Department of Family Services to deliver a service . I mean, he has an opinion. I am not sure what that opinion is based on, but I guess the key issue fo r me is not what qualification s, whether it be a social work degree or a financial management degree or whate ver. What is the proper mix of prof essio nals in our new system to deliver the best service possible to the clie nts that need that service?

I cannot tell him today. Unless he has got better inf ormation than I have, I cannot say today who is best to deliver that service . I think we have to go through the process, recognizing that it is a significant change, a very major change, and we are looking at two levels of government coming together as one, with the province having the ultimate responsi bility to deliver the service. I would not e ven suggest today that staff at the City of Winnipeg are better able to deliver the service to those that will be part of a provincial government program in the future, whethe r it be a year or two years from now.

We may have to go through a transition period, but I have confidence that we have many good employe es at the province in the Department of Family Services and I am sure they have many good employees in the City of Winnipeg. What the mix will be when we move through the process, I cannot predetermine today, but I do want to indicate to my honourable friend that I think our fo cus has to be first and fo rem ost on the client who needs the service . We have to build a program around how we can best respo nd to those client needs .

I say again, I am not an expert today, and I am not prepared to make any public statement confirming or denying who will be there at the end of the day to deliver the service. I would hope that any responsible minister or government, in fa ct, would

2382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 19 96 make the right decisions when all of the fa cts and all of the inf ormation are presented in front of that minister or that government to make those decisions in an informed way, understanding that there will be a new system. There will be an amalgamation of two departments, one from the City of Winnipeg and one from the Province of Manitoba.

I just say to my honourable friend that I am not sure I would have the answers; I am not sure he has the answers or has any expertise in the field to make the determination on whose staff is better, the province's or the city's. I think it is unf air to the staff in both systems to try to make those comparisons without any accurate inf ormed process that has taken place to date.

I have to say that I pref er to wait to have those who have been challenged with the job of coming up with a new system and a new process put the options on the table fo r discussion and fo r decision making, once those options are there that are fu lly researched, and I can be fully inf ormed. I would hesitate to make any comment one way or the other. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister. An Honourable Member: Not yet. Mr. Martindale: Thank you fo r the promotion, Mr. Chairperson. I think there is a connection between the qualifications of staff and service to clients.

I think trained staff such as those in the city's Social Services have been very good at provid ing counselling and providing referra ls, both to nongovernment agencies and to employment training programs. I think the city has done a much bett€:r job in terms of the number and variety of employment programs and in the adequacy of benefits, which we will get into in a minute.

Could the minister confirm that the province will absorb approximately $2 0-million worth of expense that the City of Winnipeg taxpayers currently bear, namely the cost of social services, and that when that happens, the Minister of Urban Aff airs (Mr. Reimer) is going to cut the grant to the City of Winnipeg by approximately $20 million? * (1 55 0) Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, my honourable friend, without being informed in any mea ningful fa shion, it is sort of predetermining what might take place.

The whole basis in all of the discussions that we have had at the political level with the City of Winnipeg has been that in fa ct this will be a revenue-neutral process. [interjection] You know, my honourable friend again says, well, is that not how you are going to do it? In fa ct, if I had all the answers today, I suppose I could just go ahead and do it, but I do not have the answers. That is why we have a steering committee, both levels of government, officials at both levels of government, and we have a consultant who is looking at the business plan.

Then, if we approve that business plan, how do we go through the implementation, the transition? All of those issues will be dealt with at that level and through that process, but the premise and the understanding has always been that it will be on a revenue-neutral basis, and that will be the basis fo r negotiation between the two levels of government through the steering committee as we move through the process. I do not have the answers to those questions today. If I had all the answers I would be able to make the final announcement and start moving on a one-tiered system, and I do not. Mr.

Martindale: A fe w minutes ago I said that the key to financial accountability is frequency of contact between clients and workers. Is the minister aware that the City of Winnipeg Social Services have cut off home visits fo r the time being because their clients are so hostile due to this minister's reduction of benefits fo r single individuals to $4 11 a month? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr Chairperson, I am inf ormed that staff at the city level have indicated that, yes, they have cut back on home visits, but it is more a workload issue than an)'thing. Mr.

Martindale: Perhaps the minister could explain to me the Free Press

article saying that the caseload went up considerably in the city of Winnipeg recently. I wonder what the explanation is fo r that. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess my honourable friend is doing his research from the Winnipeg Free Press

article of last week, I think it was, that does indicate that the caseloads have gone up. I think the

article indicates that staff at the city level have indicated that because they have not been - -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2383 able to fill vacant positions, have not been given the authority to do that, that they have a backlog. I have not had that confirmed by those at the political level at city hall but, noneth eless, our staff have met with officials at the City of Winnipeg and will continue to meet to try to determine what the issues are surrounding that and how that issue can be addre ssed. Mr. Martindale: On April 1, 19 96, the City of Winnipeg Social Serv ices reduced their monthly social assist ance rates fo r children.

Will this provincial minister admit that the main reason fo r this reduction was the standardization of rates which was brought in by this government, I believe, in 19 93? Mrs. Mitchelson: I have to indicate that it was the fe deral government that was cost sharing with the City of Winnipeg the additional rates that they provided fo r children. Money was just flowed through us.

There was no contribution by the provincial government over and above our standard rates and, you know, I think we have mentioned many times bef ore that the rates fo r children in the city of Winnipeg were the highest across the country, bar none, higher than in the NDP city of Vancouver, where there is a New Democratic administration.

Now, you cannot tell me that the cost of living in Winnipeg is higher than the cost of living in Vancouver, and yet the City of Winnipeg made a conscious decision to have the highest rates across the country, and the fe deral government did in the past share the incre ased rates that they provided on a 50 -cent basi s. That money was no longer available fo r the City of Winnipeg when the fe deral government eliminated CAP. I met with the City ofWinni peg and said that they could, on their own, see if they could get fe deral commitment to continue to cost share. I think they tried that and were flatly refused.

So they made the decision to reduce their rates based on the fe deral government decision. It was their decision to make. I know my honourable friend has tried to blame me for that, but, you know, the City of Winnipeg, the councillors at that lev el, are elected to represent the taxpayers of the city of Winnipeg, and ultimately they have to be held accountable fo r decisions that they make . Mr.

Martindale: Why will this minister not just admit that the City of Winnipeg entered into a special agreement with the fed eral government, possibly the only municipality in Canada to cost share with a city on a 50- 50 basis, in order to keep the rates higher, and that at the end of March this year they had a very difficult decision to make , which was to either continue shouldering millions of dollars of expenses by keeping the rates higher or dropping them part way, because they did not drop them entirely to the provincial level, and that the main reason fo r reduc ing the rates was that their agreement with the fe deral government ended, the province had much lower rate s, and they reduced the rate in order to reflect the reality which really came in in 19 93 with standardization, which was a policy of the provincial government?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairper son, I go back again to saying that I suppose we could eliminate the government of the City of Winnipeg and take it over as a province and make all their decisions for them. I am not sure that I would want to do that. The city councillors are duly elected to make decisions on budgetary expenditures and the use of taxpaye rs' dollars that they collect. I repeat again that they have to be held accountable fo r the decisi ons that they make, and we have to be held acc ountable too fo r the decisions that we make through our budget process.

Ultimately, it will be the taxpayers of Manitoba and the voters in the province of Manitoba who will determine whether we have done the right thing or the wrong thing. We know that every decision that we make is not going to be supported by 100 percent of Manitobans. There are going to be people that are unhappy with our decisions, and there are going to be people that are happy, but ultimately the voters of the province of Manitoba will deter mine whether , on balance, we have done a good enough job as a government to be re-elected.

If the majority fee l that way, we will continue to govern, and, if the majority fe el that we have made too many mistakes and someone else deserves the chance to govern the province of Manitoba, that decision will be made . It is out of my hands , and it is out of my honourable friend' s hands, to some degree. Ultimately, we will be judged.

I will be judged based on the decisions that I have made as the Minister of Family Services or whatever other area I have responsibility fo r within government, and my honourable friend will be judged on how successful he has been at being critical of government policy and direction. I stand to be accountable for the decisions that I have made. I think city councillors have to stand and be accountable for the decisions that they make.

2384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1996 * (1 600) Mr. Martindale: Well, I am grateful that this government has not taken over the City of Winnipeg since they have consistently provided higher benefits, to use the current examp le, social assistance rates for children, and I do not know how this minister in good conscience can defend her welf are cutbacks <md also def end standardization knowing that the result was that when the city was forced to lower their rates, for children under one year the reduction was $65 .25 a month, a reduction of 26 percent , which is inadequate even by an analysis by this minister 's own government done by the home econo mics

section of the provincial Department of Agriculture . In their family living costs guides for 1996, the cost of food at home for an infant is calculated at $12 9.3 1, and the amount of allowance that children under one year are getting for everything is $18 2 a month, so food makes up a major portion of what those children need, but according to this government 's own home econo mists, I would say that this amount is inadequate, and I would like to table the chart provided by the City of Winnipeg for their reductions with the percentage reduction for each age group that I have calculated.

I would like to ask the minister some questions about the reduction to allowances armounced, I believe, on March 14 by this government which took eff ect on May 1. First of all, could the minister verify that the percentages that she used to calculate the reducti ons, which I believe is acknowledged in her backgrounder to the press release, are based on the total amount of income and are not based on a reduction for the items that were actually reduced? Mrs. Mitchelson: They were based on the total amount of support provided to individuals.

I just want to go back to my honourable friend 's comments just a few moments ago. I think he might have forgotten that from time to time we have been in agreement on certain issues, not often, but from time to time, and I think in his comments that he made regarding the city being forced to reduce their benefits to children, he has to remember who forced the city.

If, in fact, the fe deral government had maintamed the status quo and continued with the Canada Assistance Pl an and cost-sharing rather than reducing significantly the amount of transfer dollars that went to province s, in fact there would not have had to be a change. The city would not have had to make that decision.

I think my honourable friend and I both agree that we may not agree on the decisio ns that had to be made as a result of less money coming from the fe deral government, but we both agree that the fe deral government has offioaded significantly onto the provinces for services and programs that they used to provide. So as difficult as the decisions were to make, we, in fact, had to make some difficult choices, but they were forced upon us by the fe deral government . My honourable friend does know, too, as we know, that they reduced to a greater de gree their transfers to the provinces than they did intern ally.

So we took the major hit. and. obviously, the City of Winnipeg took a major hit. but those decisions would not have had to be made by the City ofWirmipeg if, in fact, the Canada Assistance Plan still existed and the dollars still flowed to the province s. Mr. Marti ndale: Would the minister agree that the actual amount that people lost, first of all in the category of single parent v.ith two children over six, rather than being 2.7 percent of the total income, it was actually over 5 perc ent of the disposable income items that were cut, namely, food, clothing, household needs, personal nee ds? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, my honourable friend is correct if you look at the basic benefit, but what he is not including is the new supplementary benefit that was added to a single parent with two older children. So, in fact, the impact that looked like it was 5 percent could have been 4.5 percent or less.

We carmot use the standard 5 percent, because the new supplementary- I am having difficulty explaining this except to say that a total overall reduction that we armounced of2.7 percent could have been as high as 4.5 percent rather than 5 percent because of a new supplementary benefit that was added into the basic rate. Mr. Mart indale: Could the minister explain the new supplementary benefit and the amount of money involved? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there no longer is a suppleme ntary benefit. What used to be the supplementary benefit is now rolled into part of the basic bene fits. - -

May 21, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2385 * (1610 ) Mr. Martindale: Would the minister agree that the reduction fo r our single employa bles to $4 11 a month was not 10.2 percent, as the minister said in her background to the press release, but was really in the area of 21 percent of the items that were reduced? Mrs.

Mitchelson: What we did fo r our basic benefit fo r single employables was near what the province of British Columbia just did, and that was to provide $17 5 of basic benefit, and then when you include the shelter cost, because the cost of shelter is less in Manitoba than it is in Vancouver, shelter costs are independent of what the basic benefit is. So our basic benefit in Manitoba for single employables is exactly what the basic benefit in the city of Vancouver would be. I know that our cost of living is less in the city of Winnipeg than it is in Vancouver . Mr.

Marti ndale: Would the minister agree that fo r couples with no children the reduction is not 10.5 percent but in fact much closer to 21 percent of the discretionary items that were redu ced, fo od, clothing, household needs, personal needs? Mrs. Mitchelson: This is exactly the same issue that we just discussed with the single employab les. [inter je ction] I am inf ormed that our rates are still higher fo r childless couples than New Democratic British Columbia. Mr.

Martindale: My understanding is that the budget reductions for social assist ance clien ts, wherein of their budget, will save the government approximately $10 million. Is that correct? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to take a 1 0-minute break? An Honourable Member: Five. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I believe it is the will of the committee to take between five and 10 - minute break. This committee is in rec ess. The committee recessed at 4:15 p.m. Aft er Recess The committee resumed at 4:26p.m . Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

We will resu me the Estimates of Family Serv ices . We were on 2.( a)(1). Mr. Martindale:

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-37
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 37.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	94332f42827ed0834a83ef971a86a7de0a6212ea

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