VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 24, 1981 NO. 66

June 24, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms):· Tape No. 2737 EL - 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. In view of the upcoming meetings with the premiers and the governors, would the Premier tell us about any negotiations he has had with Quebe~ about sales to the United States, any neg­ otiations he has had with Quebec in the last six months? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opp- osition does not seem to understand the position of the Government of Newfoundland in that we have - MR. STIRLING: MR. DINNi actually. MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: That is a good pitch. He does not understand anything That is very true. Oh, oh! Order, please! I refrain from making any derog- atory comments on the Leader of the Opposition for obvious reasons. The Leader of the Opposition is a wonderful man, a wonderful man. I hope he stays there for a long time, Mr. Speaker, for five or ten years at least in his position. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Forever!

PREMIER PECKFORD: The longer the better. Anyway the situation is government policy on the question that the Leader of the Opposition raised is that there is a legislative and constit­ utional obligation on the Canadian Federal Government, as we in­ terpret the existing BNA Act, which they have just acknowledged in the last number of days. 7321

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2737 EL - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: So our discussions and negotiations have been with the Canadian Federal Government because it is they who must act in the first instance as it relates to the whole question of the transmission of hydro-power. So our negotiations started last October.

They went on through the Winter and the Spring and culminated in a positive movement by the Federal Govern­ ment acknowledging that they do have the obligations that up to then, up to yesterday or three or four days ago, they had never acknowledged they had, and ·therefore there is movement• imd until that has been clearly identified,when their intent of introducing legislation becomes actual legislation so that then we can actually deal• it is at that point in time that the NEB beccmes operative, an application to the National Energy Boarj becomes in order,and then the Govern- 1<.2nt of Quebec 1 along with other interested parties,can then state their case as it relates to that particular application.

The long and short of it being simply that the Province of Newfoundland has always taken the -position, this government has always taken the position that our dealings on this matter must be with the Canadian Government. That has borne fruit in the last couple of days. ilR. STI RLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): of the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Leader MR.

STIRLING: I take it that the Premier,who under- stands all things and knows everything there is to know about this, is now admitting that there have been absolutely no discussions with the Quebec Government or Hydro Quebec of any sort for the last six months. Would he confirm that? 7322

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2738 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I never said that, the Leader of the Opposition (~rr. Stirling) did. I do not understand everything but I do understand certain things for which I am responsible. And that has to do with the whole question of transmission of hydro-elec­ tricity and the export of power or the utilizing of the surplus that might be available at the Gull Island pro­ ject and Muskrat Falls. All I can say to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is that in the first i..;1Stance, and we have been proven right in this case - the Opposition did not think we were right, a lot of people in Canada did not think we were right, but even the Canadian govern­ ment has now acknowledged that we were right- that there is an obligation upon the federal authorities to allow . for the same rights to apply to the transmission of electricity as now applies for oil and gas, and in that context that is step number one in order for us to be able to have an opportunity to negotiate sales West for Labrador power. MR. L. STIRLING: MR.

SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Leader As the Premier knows,we cannot enter into debate. No matter how much misleading information is given 1 on this side we can only ask questions. Now the Premier has not answered the question. Yesterday in the discussion he indicated that the transportation corridor was not really what he wanted ; what he wanted was to use the Quebec grid for the transmission of power and to pay our own way for any upgrading in that grid.

And I ask the Premier again - I mean,he played games with the first two questions saying that is not what 7323

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2738 ow - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: he said, that is not what I said - I ask the question now to the Premier,in view of the fact that they had anticipated that the federal government would give them the transportation corridor as the Prime Minister .had promised them over a year ago,and he has lived up to his promise ' but the preferential route that the Premier explained in great detail yesterday was to use Quebec's grid. Does he accept the fact that since it is Quebec's grid that has to be upgraded,that at some point you have to sit down and discuss with Quebec the use of their grid? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) about - Oh, I do not know how long it was going on, it must be close to a year - he was not on exactly the same line of questioning as the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirlinq) is nm •r, hut it is similar. At least, it is similar insofar as it had to do with energy and insofar as the member for Windsor - Ruchans did not under- stand the process. Now I can liken it to the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

Does the Leader of the Opposition not understand that once it is acknowledged and legislation {s passed amending the National Energy Board Act then what happens is that the National Energy Boar d adjudicates upon an application for the transmission,either for wheeling through a system or for a dedicated power corridor - does the Leader of the Opposition not understand that - which therefore, makes redun dant and irrelevant the question he asked about the government of Quebec? SOME HON. MEMBERS: !-1R. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: in a supplementary. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition 7324

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2738 ow - 3 MR. L. STIRLING: ~. Speaker, it is a peculiar ki nd of thinking that can cause us on one hand to be very proud of our provincial resources, our provincial rights and then to have the gal l to stand up and say tgat he is exoecting some ­ body to take away the rights that Quebec have over thei r own grid . Now everyb ody in New£oundland could understand when we were asking 7325

~ - June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2739 NM - 1 MR. STIRLING: for a corridor, a clear cut corridor across Quebec. This was the great right that we wanted and the federal government said, "You can have it," and they have now given legislation. But that was not what you were talking about yesterday. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: are you? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh! You are speaking for Quebec now Order, please! Maybe, Mr.

Speaker, maybe the Premier can explain what his colleague, the Premier of Quebec, maybe he can explain what his colleague,whose view of Canada he appreciates much more than the Liberal view of Canad? , when he says, "We will be displaying in front of our American colleagues •1ur inability to resolve differences through negotiation , " are you now saying that there have in fact been no negotiations with the Quebec Government for the last six months? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had answered the question fully. I do not understand the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) when he says that there is - there is not, you see, under our constitutional and legislative things as we understand it, and all the federal bureaucrats agree with us on this, and the people who we have negotiated with, that there is no difference in requesting that we have equal rights with other Canadians in the transmission of energy goods in the methodology of that transmission,whether it is wheeling through an existing system in Quebec or a dedicated corridor. The differences are one of nuance and not of substance.

The dedicated corridor involves Quebec land and the wheeling involves the Quebec transmission system 1 if in fact it is available,if there is a surplus or there is some room there for it 1 which will then be adjudicated by an independent, impartial agency called the 7326

June 24, 1981 TaP.e No. 2739 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: National Energy Board. So the whole question that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) is posing just in- dicates that the Leader of the Opposition does not seem to understand the process and that for full equality to be established for the transmission of energy products, both the wheeling and the delegated corridor are integral parts of that whole situation.· And I cannot understand how the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) cannot understand that to be so, admitted by even the federal people. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, the hon. Leader It is becoming very obvious, Mr. Speaker, not only to me but to people throughout this whole Province, where there is no roads agreement in effect, no jobs being created, is that nothing has been don~ except the propaganda related to this whole question, nothing but propaganda and pass­ outs to the Newfoundland people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: you now admit - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh! Order, please! You are trying to confuse people and Oh, oh! Order, please!

Do you have a question in there? Th~ question I would ask - and yesterday the Premier in his rhetorical manner said he would table all the correspondence and all the propositions that he has made to the federal government, which he has not done yet, Mr. Speaker - I would ask the Premier if he would also table all of the correspond­ ence that he has had and all of the propositions he has made to the Province of Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 7327

June 24, 1981 Tape No . 2739 NM - 3 PREt-tiER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker, you know, I do not in tend to table all the discussions and correspondence we had with the Province of Quebec in this ~~ tter, at this point in time, given that it is a highly sensitive matter . MR. STIRLING: You have not had any. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, I did not say we did not have any discussions with the Province of Quebec. What I am saying is that the whole question - and the only reason why we are .as far ahead as we are right now on this whole negotiation,and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) had better watch his co=ents now very carefully because in a few minutes I will demonstrate that he is 732A

June 24,1981 '~'ape No. - 2740 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: incorrect so I would ask the Leader of the Opposition to be careful of what he says because there .are things here that-MR. STIRLING: I anxiously await that. PRFMIER PECKFORD: Okay, then you will be proven wrong again. And I do not want to see the Leader of the Opposition embarrassed. I want to see a very responsible Leader of the Opposition who is going to constructively criticize government. MR. STIRLING: see that Leader .

You will get your chance to PREMIER PECKFORD: All I am saying, Mr.Speaker, is that it has been recognized by everybody in Canada who has looked at this situation that the federal government are the people in the first instance who must move in order to see the transmission of electricity happen. And this has been admitted by the Prime Minister, this has been admitted by Mr. LaLonde, this has been admitted by all the friends of the Leader of the Opposition opposite,and I cannot understand why they have not told them so. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): MR. NEARY: The hon.member for LaPoile.

Mr.Speaker, I was going to ask the Premier a question but he is in such a bad, foul mood today perhaps I will direct my guP.stion to the Minister of tHnes and Energy (Hr. Barry)- that is providing the Premier will let him ar-.m.,rer the question because we understand there is dissension between the two hon. gentleman over the matter of offshore and the energy policy in this Province. But the wor~ t~at ~s coming out of Halifax these days, Mr.

Speaker, site of the biggest offshore exposition every held in Canada, the message that is coming out is that the representatives from Newfoundland fear that Halifax may get everything and Newfoundland will get nothing from the offshore. Dorothy Wyatt,the mayor of St. John's,who I 7329

June 24,1981 Tape No. 2740 ah-2 MR.NEARY: presume is a good Newfoundland, Mr . Millan ':his morning, Dr. Stuart Peters, Mr . Steve Millan, ~ resident of the offshore directorate,and a Miss Cant\ ·lell from Bowring 's, I think it is, they all seem to think that Newfoundland is goina to - i~~ the oil boat, if we have not already missed it, and ti1at most of the benefits will go to Halifax.

Now the ordinary Newfoundlander has been feeling this way for so me time, that the government has no~ been conducting themselves in a sane, sensible, common-sense way and their shouting and blaspheming has caused Newfoundland to lose a lot of the spinoff benefits that we should have received now to Halifax to Nova Scotia . What does the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) have to say about that? MR . SPEAKE:R (Simms): The hon. Minister of Hines and Energy. Z.1R. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to see th at the member has been allowed to ask a question,and : suspect that it was just because the Leader of the Oppositi on was frightened away by what the Premier indicated he would be tabling lately . He sat down awfully fast. Mr. Speaker, 7330

June 24, 1981 Tape 2741 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: the member opposite is not quoting his newspapers correctly today. The statements that he has made, I believe, have been attributed to Her Worship, the Mayor of St. John's, to Mrs. Cantwell and to iir. Peters. And, you know, we have a democratic system here. They are entitled to their opinions. They happen to be wrong opinions, but they are entitled to their opinions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. BARRY: Mr. Millan did not make that statement and therefore there is nothing to correct as far as his statement is concerned.

The Government of Newfoundland's posltion is that there may be a slight little bit of influence in the fact that the Province is the owner of the resource , the Province will be licencing those who develop the resource, the Province has been and will continue to be setting conditions for the issuing of those permits which will see maximum benefits to this Province, and if we have the support of members opposite, and if they would mqke true representation to their Liberal colleagues in Ottawa, we may maintain the significant impact that we have seen here in the offshore, and,indeed, it will continue to grow.

But if members opposite continue to support the Prime Minister in his attempt to rip these resources away from this Province, then there could be a very real threat to both employment and to business opportunities for our people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MRo NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member Mr. Speaker, I got the impression from all four names that I just mentioned, including 7331

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 274.1 MR.- NEARY: Mr. Millan, that it is about time that the provinci~l government got away from just going after the throat; I think Mayor Wyatt said it is time both governments got away_from each other's throats on this particular matter and stopped the shouting and stopped the arm waving and the wild-eyed accusations and the blasphemy. EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: _ Tell her to get her own house · in order at City Hall. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Millan definitely stated a change of provincial policy in Halifax. If he was quoted correctly, Mr. Millan said - MR.

MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: First of all, the hon. gentleman is ~g a speech, and secondly, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is quoting form a newspaper, and I believe that newspaper is the Daily News. In Beauchesne, Page 131 Oral Questions - MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: What do you mean by that? Well, anyone can draw his own conclusions. Paragraph 358: "Questions should - MR. STIRLING: Fisheries (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) the Minister of Order, please!

Yes, they did an excellent editorial this morning on the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). Very perceptive, excellent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it says, "Oral Questions: Such questions should not inquire whether statements made in a newspaper are correct". And, Mr. Speaker, you know, 7332

June 24, 1981 Tape 2741 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: there is a reason for that, because the people in this House, elected to the House, are the ones who ask the questions, it is not the people who did not get into the House '"ho are allowed to ask questions from outside the House . MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, ·to the point of order. 733:3

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2742 SD - 1 ~1R. SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: my questions on Mr. Millan, AN HON. HEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Just for the benefit of the House, in I was not quoting from any newspaper. You were so. I certainly was not. To the point of order, my understanding is that the hon. member was making a reference to comments in the newspaper,but I did not understand him to quote directlv. In a~y event,he is aware of the reference that was quoted. and he can judge that in asking his questions. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) involves a statement made in Halifax where Mr. Millan was a guest speaker, had to do with a government policy, provincial policy on the offshore. Did Mr. Millan correctly state the government policy,that this government would prefer not to take the offshore question to court, that Mr. Millan said, and I presume he was speaking for the minister and for the government,that that was not the place to settle the issue, that the government-at least he himself if not the government would prefer to see a negotiated settlement 1 which is a change from the policy of six months ago.

Is that policy now the policy of the Newfoundland government, the one that Mr. Millan stated in Halifax? MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, with respect to Mr. Millan making policy, unlike the administration that the hon. member played a

part in at one time, it is the ministers in Cabinet in this administration who make policy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. BARRY: - and it is the public employees of this province, good, hard-working,dedicated employees, who implement the policies and take direction from the policies decided by Cabinet. That is step one, 7334

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2742 SD - 2 MR. BARRY: Step two, Mr. Speaker, it has been and continues to be the position of this government that the only way in which we are going to see a proper and an early settlement of the offshore minerals dispute is through constitutional and political negotiations,and a settlement which will be arrived at along the lines of that offered by Prime Minister Clark and which is supported by the other main opposition party in the federal government and which should be supported as well by the party to which members opposite bear allegiance but unfortunately it is not the case.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER [Simms): Final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile , followed by the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is just like music to our ears over here because that is what we have been suggesting now for the last several years 1 that there should be a negotiated settlement, Mr. Speaker, that is what we have been saying for several years past 1 that the only way - as the minister says himself - the only way to get a proper and early settlement is through making some kind of a deal. MR. MARSHALL: MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A po~nt of order has been raised by the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is making a speech again, a bad one but still a speech,and this is Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: Well,this is the hon. member 1 s second supplementary; he should not require much

preamble. I would ask him to ask his question . There are others who wish to ask questions. 733~

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2742 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: So in view of the fact that the minister nmv has stated a change of policy, that the only way to get a 733R

June 24, 1981 Tape No. ~743 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: proner and early settlement is through political negotiation, would the minister now tell the House if in future there will be no more blaspheming or shoutinq and roaring and bawling from one end of this countr ·: to the other by the Premier, that the minister will now go out and do the same thing as he did with Erco and carry out negotiations in a common sense way in order to bring about this early settlement that the bon. gentleman just spoke about? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Energy. MR. BARRY: The bon. the Minister of Mines Mr.

Speaker, it takes two to tango 1 It takes two to negotiate, it takes. two to settle. This govern­ ment has always, always, Mr. Speaker, since 1972 taken the pos­ ition that this is an issue which cries for a political settle­ ment, which cries for the Federal Government to recognize leg­ itimate, God-given ri~hts of Newfoundlanders,and instead of trying to take them away from us, they should be sitting down to discuss the way of making sure that together we can see that these resources are developed for the benefit of Newfoundland, for the benefit of all of Canada. But, no, Mr.

Speaker, there has never, until the recent statement by the Prime Minister 1 been any indication that the Federal Government was prepared to enter into any type of serious discussion to try and resolve the issue. The Premier res­ ponded very quickly, very positively to what appears to be a change in the Federal position. We welcome that;if that is the case, we welcome that chanqe. Ne will respond positively to any subsequent carrnunications from the Prime Minister, but we are now a1vaiting a response to the Premier's letter.

And with respect to blaspheming, we have not yet deified the Prime Minister of Canada unlike the member and his colleagues opposite. 7337

JW1e 24 , 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR . BENNETT : MR. SPEAKER: MR . NEARY : Tape No . 2743 EL - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon . member for St. Barbe . I yield . The hon. member for . La·Poile. Mr . Speake r, I am glad to hear now tha.t - ordinary Newfoo,ndlanders 1.;ill approve of that policy just announced by the han . gentleman, which is something new . This is a new policy, brand new. Ordinary Newfoundlanders will approve of that , that they are prepared now to sit down to the table and negotiate . No1.;, will the han . geJ:i'tl eman tell t .he House how much time we have?

Because the situation according to Mr. Millan aga i n 1 if he is quoted .correctly , the situation concerning Bibernia , it seems to be reaching a crucial stage . Now, how much time do we have in order to negotiate this settlement? How much time do we have before the oil c:::ompanies want to get into production on Hibernia?

And will the minister while he is answering the question tell us is it a fact that most of the spin-off benefits that , because of a better political climate in Nova Scotia , better economic climate, that the spin-off benefits, the real benefits so far from our offshore have gone to Nova Scotia, would the han . g~ntle ­ man care to comment on that? 733A

June 24, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Tape No. 2744 DW - 1 The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, now that members opposite are seeing that a frank, courageous, strong defence of Newfoundland rights gets results,as it did with respect to Erco, ·as it has gone with respect to the pow~r corridor across Quebec and as I know it will do with respect to getting our offshore mineral rights - SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. L. BARRY: opposite see - SOME HON. MEMBFRS: MR. L. BARRY: Oh, oh! Hear, hear! - now, Mr.

Speaker, that members Oh, oh! - now that they see that this ' government is acheiving results, they are trying to jump the bandwagon, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. L. BARRY: They are now, all of a sudden, they have been in agreement with the government of this Province, there has been no opposition over there on any of these issues for the last two years. Mr. Speaker, it is about time we had some constructive opposition opposite.

I urge members to take a stand, to have the courage to get up and take a stand,not just on these issues but on the other important issues facing this Province 1 whether it be the fishery, Mr. Speaker, which again because of poor federal management is facing a crisis, whether it be hydro-electricity, whether it be offshore mineral rights,whatever! For Heaven's sake it is time for the Opposition to take a clear stand. Are you with us or 733!i

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2744 DW - 2 MR. L. BARRY: are you against us? Are you with Mr. Trudeau or are you against him? Make up your mind, Mr. Speaker! Make up your mind! Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to how time that we have to settle,we have as much time as it takes to see Newfoundland win its just rights. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. T. BENNETT: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! The hon. member for St. Barbe. If this goes on for long, Mr. Speaker, I will wonder if they are thumping their desks for me or if they are thumping their desks for the hon. minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. T. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe).- June 6th. we have this advertisement by five members of the government asking people to join in their efforts to main­ tain Eastern Provincial Airways services in and out of Deer Lake.

Now I am wondering if this mean~ - 1 do not see the minister's picture with the group of five and I am wondering now if there is a division, if the minister still believes in the two airport concept or if he has lost support of the two airport concept by having five from the Humber area supporting only the Deer Lake airport? I am wondering if the minister now is going to still support the two airport concept or if he is taking sides too? MR. SPEAKER: MR. R. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, the policy of this government as it relates to a number of transportation matters in this Province is well known. We are supporting the status quo as it relates to the two airport system in Western Newfoundland 1 and have done so for some time. As a matter of fact,the government has prepared an interven- 7340

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2744 DW - 3 MR. R. DAWE: tion proposal and have submitted it to the Canadian Air Transport Commission and that has been done a? recently as last week. We have to hear back from them. We definitely support the two airport system in Western Newfoundland 7341

June 24,1981 Tape No. 2745 ah-1 MR. DAWE: as we support the airports all throughout this Province. The

article indicated by the member from St. Barbe (11r. Bennett) is a prime example of the interest that members on this side of the House take in their particular districts and is an effort on behalf of those people to encourage other residents of the district to assist government in its proposal to keep the ·two airport concept. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BENNETT: Oh, the interest, Mr.Speaker . A supplementary to the Minister of Transportation (Hr. Dawe). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR.

BENNETT: Oh, the interest that has been displayed by the hon. persons who I sus per.+: paid for this themselves because I doubt very much if the government would pay for this ad. It would be inter,.., .... ~ rr· "n:r:. t.'!e minister to tell us who paid for such ad which I understand cost hundreds of dollars, half a page in the Western Star. But,however,for all the interest being displayec I was not approached and I am a member for the area that is adversely effected by the elimination of services out of Deer Lake. I was not approached looking for support .

And I sit across the House and I speak about the airports continuously. Myself and my colleagues are very much in favour, Mr. Speaker, of the two airport concept. And I am wondering if the chips wer~ down 1as they appear to be - Eastern Provincial making up its mind to fly out of one airport once the chips are down I am wondering now which airport the minister himself will support? MR. SPEAKER: That is a ~ypothetical question and the hon. member might wish to rephrase it. MR. BENNETT: I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if indeed the minister does still support the two airport 7342

June 24,1981 Tape No. 2745 ah-2 MR. BENNETT: concept when indeed Eastern Provincial has decided they are wanting to leave Deer Lake, They stated they are going to lea ve Deer Laye·But I have not heard anything from the minister in the House of Assembly or through the media supporting the two airport concept. And, Mr. Speaker, adding to that,when the minister does respond I wonder if he would tell us if he met with the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Jean- Luc Pepin) in Ottawa during his recent visit and what the results of these discussions with regard to the sirport might have been? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The han.

Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.Speaker, it would be certainly helpful if the hon. member opposite could ' clarify his question somewhat. It is very difficult in fact to decide whether there is a question there.

I have stated publicly,and I have continued to do so to the group that were down from the Ministry of Transport some time ago 1 my feelings on the two airport system in Newfoundland and I have continued to do that repeatedly in meetings I have had with the Deer Lake Town Council and a number of people representing interest groups in Western Newfoundland .-\nd my position is the same as it has been all along, it is the same as government's position. ··re do support the two airport system. As it relates to rreetings I ,1ave had with Mr.

Pepin as recently as yesterday 1 these are a part of ongoing discussions with the Department of Transportation and as soon as information from that meeting is such that it should be made available to the public 1I will certainly do so. 7343

June 24, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. HISCOCK: Tape 2746 EC - 1 The hon. the member for Eagle River. We have thirty-five seconds remaining. My question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy and it is with regard to Newfoundland Hydro wanting a rate increase. Because they have now had to finance the CFLCo loan,it has now gone up from 7 per cent to 8 per cent to the consumer.

Could the Minister of Mines and Energy provide us with the information how much was the original loan, what interest is now being paid on that loan;and how much more capital we have to pay on the CFLCo loan?Because of rules of this government and regulations, the Board of Public Utilities cannot - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is a question that requires a great deal of detail and statistics and perhaps would be more appropriate for the Order Paper. I would suggest the hon. member put that on the Order Paper. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, apart from all that, it has been answered many times in the House before.

It was $160 million initially, if it is the same one that he is referring to - $160 million of which $30-odd million was allocated for water rights and the other for the purchase of CFLCo assets. MR. HISCOCK: MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Will you table all of that? Mr. Speaker, it has all been tabled. Order, please! I tabled a response to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I gave him the periodic interest rates applicable and it is all there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 7344

June 24, 1981 Tape 2746 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! I have indicated the question would be more properly put on the Order Paper. I can also tell hon. members the time for Oral Questions has now expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table some documents to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the negotiations between the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada have been ongoing since last October and before as it relates to the positive movement that was taken the other day by the federal government in indicating their intention to introduce legislation as it relates to a power corridor through Quebec. I have given a list on top of the documents to make it easy reference for the Leader of the Opposition.

I just note,by way of tabling 1 a proposal that went to the federal government on March 3rd of this year which delineated in clear terms the kinds of amendments to the National Energy Board Act which would be necessary, which included wheeling as well as power corridor. It has been consistent, the Minister of Energy's (Mr. Barry) letter to Mr.

LaLonde after a meeting in December; my own correspondence with the Prime Minister in establishing the meeting and getting the meetings underway, right up to, and I might say to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, in contrast to some of his questions today, "Thank you for your letter" - this is from the Prime Minister after the announcement was made on Sunday. We received it 7345

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2747 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFBRD: after the announcement was made not before -''Thank you for your letter of March 13th!'-which was my last letter to him~'in which you discuss the subject of trans­ mission of electrical energy through the Province of Quebec. There is no question that we are in full agreement about the potential benefits to .be derived for Newfoundland and Labrador and Canada as a whole from the development of the Gull Island site on the Lower Churchill.

I also concur that a key factor in determining the economic viability of this project will be the availability of markets for surplus power. I understand that my colleague, the bon. Marc Lalonde,has recently written to Mr. Barry putting forward the view that without guarantees in their future o~ somemarkets the Federal Government will want to assess very seriously the financial risks before the project went ahead. "In light of the above, I am most appreciative of the information which you have made available to me and to Mr. Lalonde.

We are, at this time, contemplating the introduction in Parliament of amendments to the National Energy Board Act protecting electrical transmission. The mat­ erial you, your minister and your officials have put forward in the recent exchanges of views '!...-the meetings that were held that the Leader of the Opposition said were not held-"has helped to clarify the nature of some of the problems involved and will greatly assist us in our consideration of legislative and · other means to encourage the development of the Gull Island project.'' This is the Prime Minister of Canada. "I understand also that Mr.

Lalonde has indicated his suppoEt in principle for a programme of engin­ eering studies on the Lower Churchill and I trust that this can proceed. I hope that these actions confirmfor you the urgent priority which we too attach to the need to resolve outstanding issues related to the development of the Lower Churchill." 7346

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2747 EL - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: And I replied to the Prime Minister this morning and I want to table this letter now. I have telexed it to the Prime Minister this morning because I think it is ex­ tremely important in the response that he gave yesterday. 'Thank you for your letter' - telexed dated June 19, 1981- 'informing me of your intention to introduce an amendment to the National Energy Board Act respecting electricity transmission.

Your intention in this respect represents an im­ portant step in the direction we have been seeking but there are two important points which I wish to bring to your attention. The first relates to timing and the second to the nature of the proposed legislation. 'On the question of timing 1 it is extremely important that legislation to facilitate free inter­ provincial trade in electrical energy be introduced as soon as possible. I am hereby requesting that the appropriate legis­ lation be dealt with by parliament prior to its Summer recess.

While we have not seen the text of the proposed amendment, it is my understanding that it deals with only part of our request and provides for the creation of a dedicated corridor through neigh­ bouring pro vinces. •our original request 1 as confirmed in my letter of March 13, 1981 and in a proposal put forward at the officials level'- of which a copy is being table here toda y ­ •requests that legislation be introduced which will provide access to a dedicated power corridor and also provide access to inter­ provincial transmission facilities through the Province of Quebec and other neighbouring provinces.' SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: 'To reiterate, we are pleased with the initiative taken by your government. I hereby request that the proposed amendment be broadened to cover both a dedicated power corridor as well as the ability to wheel Newfoundland power through the Quebec system. ' 7347

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2747 EL - 3 PREMIER PECZFORD: 'Such legislation should be intro- quced in parliament as soon as possible and its passage approp­ riately expedited in view of the pressing national and provincial interest in Labrador power dEi!velopme .nt .' I hereby table and therfore provide as exhibit A, B,C and D to Z the amount of meetings and discussions we have had with the federal officia ls since last October . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): This being Wednesday, Private Members Day, I call motion number 6. SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAZER: Oh, oh! Order, please!

I call motion number 6, which is moved by the hen. member for St. Barbe (T.Bennett).WHEREAS the high cost of living in this Province has placed an unbearble bur­ den on those who are dependant on gover~ent assistance;AND WHERE­ as we profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opp­ ortunity for all;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House urge the govern ­ ment to take measures to make adequate provision for those for whom society is responsible. Moved by the hen. member for St. Barbe. 734A

June 24, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. BENNETT: Tape No. 2748 NM - l The hon. member for St. Barbe. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I feel very strongly that this is a resolution that should gain the support of every member of the House of Assembly. It seems to me, since I remember, in very short time, in very short years, we have had such a change in the structure of our survival, the survival of people who find it very difficult, Mr. Speaker, to provide for themselves.

Some of the reason I put forward this resolution, a resolution of this nature consequently I feel will get the unanimous support of the House of Assembly. It seems to me, at this time in our particular society, that we are entering into what appears more like the law of the jungle, Mr. Speaker, rather than being more or less our fellow's keeper. It seems to me that gove~nment of today, not only, Mr. Speaker, on a provincial level, but basically, primarly our provincial government that we have in place at this time, they seem to flog and they seem to abuse their position as government in governing.

They inflict upon people unbearable taxes. In my opinion they do not return to the taxpayers of the Province, who have contributed to the treasury, they do not return to the people who are dependent on government for their very survival. So you can understand, Mr. Speaker, why I am anxious to put forward such a resolution. I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that we are very lucky as Canadians to live'in such a country as Canada where most of the major benefits can be gotten from the Canadian society, benefits that have been brought into being by a good strong, . aggressive Liberal Government in Ottawa, a government that sees the needs of people, recognizes the needs of people, respects it and does something about it. 7349

June 24, 1981 Tape No . 2748 NM - 2 MR. BENNETT: Ne have too much discrepancy on our provincial level when so m~ch is being done on our federal level to alleviate the anxiety and the hardship of the people of this Province. I am not totally aware of how other provinces operate, of what their policies are with regards to helping people of their provinces, but I am becoming more and more aware of how our provincial government operates,and I am becoming more and more aware of how they neglect the needs of people who are dependent upon them .

I can cite so many examples in the Province at this time, examples where I wish the various ministers of this government would, t-lr. Speaker, put their knowledge and their skills and their abilities' put it together for the benefit of the people of the Province. A few days ago I was speaking to a young man who lost his wife and left him with six childre .n to support. The policy of this government is to afford that young man, who is less than 73sn

_ _a- · June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2749 SD - 1 MR. BENNETT: thirty years old,or probably he might be past thirty, but he has six children to support and the Department of Social Services will allow him $60 a month for a housekeeper. consequently, Mr. Speaker, that young man is obliged to stay on welfare. He is not a skilled tradesman, he is not into an industry where he can make great dollars to raise and educate his children, so this young man is dependent on government aid, government assistance.

If he leaves his children to seek employment, he looses any assistance that he would get from the Department of Social Services - the meager $60 a month would be cut off. Now I feel, Mr. Speaker, myself that a young man in a position like that should be encouraged to seek employment. He should be awarded a lot more than $60 a month so that he could go out and seek gainful employment and raise his family in dignity.

At this time this particular young mar: - and no doubt we have hundreds of them around the Province in similar circumstances, who lose their housekeeper when they lose their wives by one means or anotheri and in this case it is a sad situation that I speak of - this young man finds it very difficult to get employment. Not having a trade, not being into the fishing industry where he can make substantial dollars, he has got to work by the sweat of his brow wherever he can get a day's pay and that day's pay can be a little as $3.45 an hour to support six children and himself and the housekeeper. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I said earlier that we are lucky to belong to a society and a country as great as the Canadian society under which we live. And I had other calls from my constituents who wonder why they have been cut in their benefits from the Social Services Department in our government. And when I do research - like I have one here in front of me, an inquiry, which says, 'Why have we been reduced 7 3 5 'I

June 23 , 1981 Tap·e No. 2749 so - 2 MR. BENNETT: in our monthly payments of $185 down to $172 a month? ' N0\4 $185 a month for a person to su.rv.ive on is not a lot of money - $6 a day or less . But when I do the resear .ch to find out why th.is person was reduced from $185 to $172 per month 1 1 am told it is because the Canadian government in Ottawa increased the allowance under the Canada Pension Plan. 735?.

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2750 NM - 1 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the government this year increased assistance to social service recipients in the order of ten per cent to accommodate inflation. While the ten per cent was not enough,the same thing applies to Ottawa. Ottawa increases its aid to people to allow for the high cost of living and the inflation. But when Ottawa increases its aid to the people through Canada Pension or other means, the government here takes it away, Mr. Speaker, which is most unfair. And I would like for this government to do something about it. I think they should change that policy.

They have the power. They have the wherewithal. They make this money available and in view of the fact that Ottawa pays fifty per cent of all social services money into the Province anyway in the first instance, so it is most unfair that people should be treated in this manner. When they do get an increase in assistance from Ottawa, this government takes it away • •even though it is meant to serve the same purpose.

This government gives an increase,after we flogged them and insisted they give an increase they finally give into our demands and give the people in the Province an increase, people who are dependent upon them for very survival ' then when Ottawa gives an increase this government takes it away. I am most anxious, Mr. Speaker, to see.that changed and I think that the people of the Province who get increases from Ottawa should be allowed to keep those increases, kept for what they were meant to provide for in the very beginning, the increase in the high cost of living.

Even in many parts of our Province we find not equal and in my resolution here I suggest, Mr. Speaker, the second paragraph, AND

WHEREAS we profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opportunity for all. Now I feel that we are certainly not 7353

IlL June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2750 NM - 2 MR. TULK: living up to what we profess to be, what we profess to support. When I hear my hon. colleague, who represents Labrador, suggesting that in government operated stores they pay as much as $3.60 or $3.80 for a dozen eggs:just because people live on the Labrador and you pay $1.50 or $1.60 in St. John's, now that is not equal rights for all. We can find a terrible amount of discrepancy in the system and it is long past due when we should be doing something about it. As soon as this government came to power, Mr.

Speaker, almost the very next day after they came to power- and I have been scoffed at in the House of Assembly for mentioning this before, and I stand to be scoffed at again and I will be scoffed at in the future - as soon as this ,government came to power they cut out Joe Smallwood's mothers' allowance.

Now if the hon. gentleman opposite who controls the Treasury, if the hon. gentleman represented a rural area and visited his constituents like I do, the people who need this help, the people who have not got the money to buy books for their children in the Fall, and boots to put nn their feet in the Fall of the year when school starts; undoubtedly the hon. gentlemen who represent St. John's can find such discrepancy too, they do not need to go into rural areas. But it is more obvious in rural areas because we are still living in a more humane manner, .where we visit our neighbours and treat ~hem like 7354

June 24, 1981 Tape 2751 EC - 1 MR. BENNETT: human beings. We have not yet succumbed to the attitudes that are evident and displayed in the city, in the concrete jungles. People need that $200 in the Fall of the year, Mr. Speaker. The Canadian child's tax credit is a help that people now get, coming from Ottawa, and I would very much like to see this government do something of that nature, especially in the Fall when our children need to go back to school.

I have a letter on my desk from a constituent today asking for some kind of help, any kind of help, where a widow with a child of seventeen, just gone through Grade X having done excellently, and they are living on the subsistence of welfare - a family of four, I believe. The eldest boy is eighteen now very shortly and going into Grade XI. And the mother is very concerned because she cannot afford to have that boy go tprough Grade XI next Fall without some kind of help. He is not able to get work this Summer, which, Mr.

Speaker, fifteen years ago and even ten years ago was unheard of for young people to be unemployed. In the district of St.Barbe it was unheard of. There was a surplus of employment, there was a shortage of labourers. There were more jobs than there were people to accommodate them. But what has happened since we .have Tory times in the last ten years? MR. NEAR Y : Hard times. MR. BENNETT: It is hard times. I really do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that this government realizes and understands. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, they travel around the Province.

I do not think they are in communication and in contact with the people of the Province. I do not think they know anything that is happening outside of the Avalon Peninsula and the overpass. They certainly do not know what is 7355

June 24, 19"81 Tape 2751 EC - 2 MR. BENNETT: happening in St. Barbe district. If they knew, I think there would be legislation to support and to change - help to change, at least, the unbearable poverty of some of the people that we have. And I say some of the people, Mr. Speaker, I do not say all of the people.

We have people who are making a very good living, but through the very good living that they make, Mr.Speaker, they contribute to the Treasury, to the payment of taxes which this government inflicts upon them, and the idea of taxing one source-is to aid the other source to develop industry and to help people get into industry and to help people who cannot help themselves , now that is a general idea of taxation. We have had a lot of freedoms around the Province, around the Island and,indeed, Labrador.

We have lost a lot of that freedom in a very short time which could make people reasonably independent,~here they could get land to grow potatoes. The policy of this government, Mr. Speaker, will not allow people to get land. Crown land is sitting still. It is just out there growing to weeds and our people cannot get this land. By the time they cut through all the red tape to acquire ten acres or two or a hundred acres, by the time they cut through all the red tape of government bureaucracy and pay 7356

June 24, 1981, Tape 2752, Page~ -- apb MR. BENNETT: for an expens1ve survey and document all of this. People of the Province are unable to acquire land. By the tLme they get the piece of land approved that they can grow theLr potatoes on, they have gone out to the factorLes of Ontario seeking employment to support their families back here, they are paying the tax to the Ontario or Alberta governments, terrible disorganization. I wonder if the rest of the Canadian governments across Canada, I wonder if the rest of the provinces are disorganized as this Province and this government seem to be?

I heard the · Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morganl yesterday, in his usual criticism of Ottawa, suggesting that his government can organize the fishery. Well, Mr. Speaker, if building ice plants in one community and a fish plant twenty mLles down the street in my district is a prime example of theLr - if this is an organized government, if this is organLzation, look, up in Bartletts Harbour we have two ice making machines where there is no electricity to make ice with those machines.

They have been there for four years and they have not turned out a ton of ice and we are hauling ice from the other side of the Island. We have ambitious people up there who want to get into industry. We have this government, our Minister of Fisheries, flogging Ottawa about their licencing system when, if they did their work_, we would have plants on shore. That i.s not Ottawa •·s responsibility. Build your ice plants, put the power to them, make your roads to them. Last year there were several fish plants in my district that suffered because this government could not find any dollars.

Cow Head alone was looking for $30,000. I went to the minister and I said, Look_, $30,000 can turn on this fish plant and give us $4 million worth of cash flow in that little community. And this government laughed 7357

June 24, 1981, Tape 2752, Page. 2 -- apb MR. BENNETT: at that kind of expenditure, $30,00.0.. If you do not go in with . a $30.0 .,0QO expenditure to activate a little, tiny fish plant, and then turn around and tax the people to pay it back, if you cannot do this kind of tliing they will not look at it at all. There is no question about i.t, Tory times are hard times. I have photographs here I would like to show ~he hon. gentleman. If I relate from them - I told a friend of mine I would return these photographs to him so if I am asked to table them I should.

But I would like the hon. gentleman to look at our methods of clearing and turning on our agriculture in a district as I represent, where we have such arable land. Since I have been here I have had hon. gentlemen suggest to me, You do not have arable land in your district. We have the best ar .ab.le land. That is the reason we have a good woods industry, that is the reason Bowaters - we have the biggest kind of timber and where there are good timber stands there is good soil beneath . it and people can grow potatoes.

But when you have such arrogance on the part of government, they will not spend $2,000 or $3,000, or $5,000 or $6,000, $10,000 or $50,000 to help to develop this land. Mr. Speaker, there is so very little that can be . done about it , and still these people sweat their hearts out to make a living and develop the land. Mr. Speaker, they do thls.to pay taxes and to be independentt and they pay taxes and they support their chi .ldren and their famili.es ·. Mr. Speaker, I wish I had more time to talk. about thls resoluti.on that I have put forward but I shall, hoepfully, ge.t another chance.

I realize I have only one minute left,but I challenge every member of this hon. House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, to get 735R

June 24, 1981, Tape 2752, Page 3 -- apb MR. BENNETT: up and display his feelings for the people of this Province . And if we profess to live in a society wit~ equal oenefits and equal rights for all, if we profess to live in a society of this type and this nature, if we do not profess to live in a dictatorship, Mr . Speaker, I cfiallenge ever y hon. person in this House of Assembly to display their feelings 7358

June 24, 1981 MR. T. BENNETT: important resolution. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. S. NEARY: Tape No. 2753 DW - 1 on this, in my opinion, most Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. The bon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words in support of the resolution put down on the Order Paper by my colleague the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett). The resolution basically, Mr. Speaker, deals with matters related to people who are unable to fend for themselves in our Newfoundland society.

It has to do with people who are unemployed, people who are underemployed and people who are receiving social assistance benefits. In other words, people who are neglected by the government. So , Mr. Speaker, we are basically dealing with three groups of people - no, with four groups of people - we are also dealing with the handicapped. We are dealing with,nurnber one, people who are unemployed through no fault of their own, people who are underemployed, underpaid, people on social assitance and people who are handicapped, sick people and disabled people. So we are dealing with four groups of people. Now, Mr.

Speaker, th~ group that I would like to deal with first are the people who are on social assistance. Now any society, Mr. Speaker, can be judged on the way that it looks after people who are forced to go on government assistance of one kind or another. Any civilized society is judged on the way it looks after people who through no fault of their own are forced to receive government assistance of one kind or another. And that includes, in this Province, to a large degree people on 736n

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2753 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: social assistance. Now the people on social assistance today, Mr. Speaker, in this Province, I would think on the whole are being grossly neglected by this government~ you have children going to school in this Province who are undernourished. I think it is right to say that in our society today, ·in our Canadian society, our Newfoundland society,that nobody will starve to death unless, of course, it is an outright case of neglect, a neglected family .But ~obody really starves to death today with all the social welfare benefits that we have. But it is possible, Mr.

Speaker, for children to be undernour­ ished.

And I would suspect with the slender allowances, with the meager allowances that are paid for social assis­ tance in this Province that the government have not kept pace with the cost of living.And with inflation in this Province,.with the slender allowances that are being paid,that you have children going to school in this Province, you have children today out there in Newfoundland and Labrador who are undernourished because people cannot cope, they cannot make ends meet~ they cannot buy the food necessary to properly nourish , t0 provide nourishment for their children. The same thing applies to rent, Mr.

Speaker; this government has a crazy policy of 7361

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2754 SD - 1 · MR. NEARY: paying rent for people who are on social assistance. It is virtually impossible,-next to impossible for people on social assistance to rent a house with the rates that are set by the Department of Social Services. The ·rates are almost identical to what they were ten years ago.

And everybody knows the way the rents have increased in this Province. it is virtually impossible for people on social assistance, in the low income bracket and on unemployment insurance, to keep an adequate roof over their heads, to find a suitable apartment or house that is wind proof and water tight. It is nigh impossible, Mr. Speaker, and yet you hear people every day, I hear them myself, criticize people on social assistance. They say, 'They are living too high, they are getting too much now'. I hear some of the open line hosts express that view and some of the editors of newspapers especially the Torygram.

The Torygram cannot lo.ok at anything objectively in this Province, everything has to be looked at tunnelvision, buttoned down mind, narrow-minded. A good example of what I am talking about is in today's Torygram, there is an

article there - pass me that 'Jim' , will you? there is an

article there about a press conference that was held yesterday - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Torygram? What do you mean? The Torygram, the Evening Torygram. There is a big item on page 3 in connection with the drug prescription programme. Just listen to this, Mr.

Speaker, and then read the story. 'Charges against pharmacists are un­ founded and misleading.' And if you read the story, the pharmacists admit, openly admit - I mean, how dense and how stupid must the editor of that paper be after reading the copy passed to him by the person who attended that press conference to put in a headline like that when in actual fact what the pharmacists did was confirm what had been said in this House by the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and my myself? They 7362

June 24, 1981 Tape No . 2754 SO - 2 MR . NEARY: confirmed itand what the headlines should have been in the Evening Torygram :~ as 'Charges aga in st pharmacists are true ', that is what is should have been, or 'Cha rges against pharmacists are unfounded and misleading,so say the pharmacists .' But not that, no, 'Charges against pharmacists are unfoun deC. and misleading '. \'iell, read the

article . I challenge anybody to read it and see if it does not confirm w~at we have been saying in this House about the pharmacists charging - the minis ter confirmed it - $4 .00 for every item on a prescription , charging $4.00 per prescription that is brough in . And the phamplet the minister sent out only recently indicated that they could give 100 days supply of drugs . The pharmacists have taken it upon ~hemselves - and the mi nister is nodding, yes, that is so- to say.' No, we are only going to give you a month's supply of dru gs;so that they can get three prescriptions - $12 instead of $4. And that is confirmed in that

article . And the gall of the narrow-minded, buttoned-d own mind of the editor of that paper who cannot see beyond the Tory Party of this Province. He and Wick Collins, there are two of them left in Newfoundland. cannot see, 736:1

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2755 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: they are so narrow-minded and their minds are so closed and so buttoned down that it is shame- ful, Mr. Speaker. The reporting by these two gentlemen is shameful, it is absolately disgraceful. And the people of this £'rovince - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: They should be taken to court. for creating false information to the people of this Province be- cause the people out ~here throughout the Province pick up the newspaper and expect to find the truth. All they do,day in and day out, ~re find items that are slanted, that are slanted, Mr. Speaker. MR.

MORGAN: They are entitled to their own opinion MR. NEARY: They are not entitled to their own opinion, they are not entitled when they are doing a straight news item to slant it and to try to belittle people and downgrade people. Is that the Thomson policy? Is that the Thomson phil- osophy? Mr. Speaker, never before in the history of mankind have we seen news so slanted in this Province, so slanted that there should be a Royal Commission investigate the newspapers for slanting the news. MR. MORGAN: They do not cover you anymore. MR. NEARY: Oh, they do cover me. I get lots of coverage. Mr.

Speaker, in their own little cute way, in their own subtle way they try to undermine credibility of people in this Province. And all they are doing is insulting the intelligence of Newfoundlanders because this - MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: And themselves. I beq __ your pardon? And themselves. And themselves. They are still fighting Confederation. 7364

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2755 EL - 2 MR. MORGAN: You are not only attacking people, you are attacking the press. MR. NEARY: No, I am not attacking the press, Mr. Speaker, I am attacking two - ·rwo, and I will name them. The buttoned-down mind of the editor oi the Evening T~r~gra~- in this Province and the gentleman who writes the other column. SOME HO N. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And rightly so, Mr. Speaker, because the people of this Province expect when they read the newspaper that they are getting facts, that they are getting news items that are based on facts and not on fiction , are not slanted.

News items should not be slanted. I have seen item reported in the Evening Torvgrgm _~-- from this House, little snide remarks into the news item. That should not be allowed, Mr. Speaker, and I do not mean that we should muzzle the press, either. But what put it in my mind now is ·the wayfuey come down on the people on Social Assis- tance. You wogld not know but the y were all living in the laps of luxury.

You would not know but they were all living like the Premier of this Province,who has a house, a gift of a house, rent free, light free, telephone free, complimente of the taxpayers of this Province; a motor car and a chauffeur to drive him around and two or three bodyguards, two or three cars and helicopters and airplanes to fly him around,and an expense account. You would not know but all the people on Social Assistance were living like that in this Province, when in actual fact the y are not, Mr. Speaker.

And I would submit that most of the Newfoundland people who are on unemployment insurance, who are under- employed, receiving low wages and people on Social Assistance and Senior citizens are living below the poverty line. A lot of them are living in substandard housing that you would not put goats, you would not rear goats in some of the houses. And you cannot blame it on the individual, Mr. Speaker. There is no point in somebody getting up on the other side, some of 7365

June 24,1~81 Tape No. 2756 ah.-1 MR. NEARY: up on the other side, -some of the wealthy crowd on the other side getting up and saying, 'Ah, it is their own fault: It is not their own fault, Mr. Speaker. And this policy of forcing people to go to work: Mr. Speaker, they are saying this government,after they took over in 1972 1did away with assistance for younq, able­ bodied Newfoundlanders, y~ung men and women. There is no social assistant policy in 'this Province for young Newfoundlanders from 1 say 1 seventeen up.

When you reach the age of seventeen you are taken of the assistance, and the government uses the argument let them go out and find a job. Well 1 where are they going to find a job to when we have the highest unemployment rate in Canada? We have record unemployment in this Province. Young men and women cannot get assistance. Their parents are on unemployment insurance or on the old age pension or on a OVA allowance and they cannot, they are not entitled in this Province - I think it is the only Province in ' Canada where young able-bodied men and women are not entitled to social assistance in their own right.

The only Province is here in Newfoundland and that is contrary to the Canada Assistance Plan. The Government of Canada pays fifty per cent of the cost of social assistance in this Province; the government that has been so blasphemed by ministers and by the Premier of this Province, pays fifty pe~ cent of the social assistance programme. And the philosophy and the spirit of the Canada Assistance Plan is that everybody will be assisted if they can establish need, immaterial of what caused that need. Young people are unemployed, they cannot find jobs.

They are in need and they go to the government and the government has refused to assist them. As far as I know it is the only Province in Canada with that kind of a policy . Nm;r they have a new one, Mr. Speaker, they have a new gimmick now~ they are 7366

June 24,1981 ·Tape No. 2756 ah-2 MR. NEARY: disqualifying people from social assistance . on the recommendation of what they call private investigators- private into key holes. investigators who go around peeping Mr. Speaker, I had a case today of where a lady was denied social assistance on the recommendation of a private investigator who said she was living with a man. She had two children, she . is living common law so the private investigator said,and it is not true. The woman was not living common law. They cut off her assistance.

The pr:!.vate investigator ,whoever he is, this pint-size Dick Tracy "that the minister has running around the Province, did not even have the courtesy to interview the woman or to interview the man that she was suppose to be living with. He just made his report without the courtesy of an interview of the two people involved and on the basis of the report of a private eye, of a pocket size Dick Tracy , her assistance was · cut off and now the woman is desperate, panic stricken. Mr. Speaker, there is no harm to say that Tory times are hard times. We do have hard times in this Province at the present time.

We do have hard times. We have a record number of people on social assistance.We have record unemployment. We have a record number of people on unemployment insurance. 7367

June 24, 1981 Tape 2757 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, if these three ingredients do not make a recession or a depression I do not know what does. And the government are burying their heads in the sand, paying no attention to it at all. MR. CARTER: Do not shout so loud! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is enough to make you shout. I only wish I had the voice so that everybody in Newfoundland - the government does not have the courage to bring the television cameras into the House. The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) goes out yacking on television that the Opposition is keeping the House open.

I challenge him now: bring in the television cameras and let the people see who is keeping the House open. Let the people see. They do not have the courage to do it. They are depending on the likes of Wick Collins and the editor of the Evening Torygram to pump out their spleen, their slime and their dirt and their poison. They are depending on that, and as long as that happens there will be no microphones, no television cameras brought into this House.

So I would like to have my voice loud enough that it would go out to every corner of this Province so that the ordinary people would know that at least there is one voice in this House that is fighting for their rights. Bring in radio and bring in the television cameras, that is the only way, Mr. Speaker, the truth will get out to the people of this Province. So I hope my hon. friend's resolution does some good.

I hope that every bon. gentleman on this side of the House, at least, will stand up for the ordinary people of this Province who cannot cope with ' the high cost of living in this Province, who are given very slender and meagre resources. 735A

June 24, 1981 Tape 2757 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: I know the hon. gentleman now will come into the House, get up and say, 'Oh, yes, here is what the rates are now; here is what they were ten years ago when the Liberals were in.' It was a different situation then. We had low unemployment in this Province and the cost of living at that time was not as bad as it is now. But the rents were more generous than they are at the present time. People are being forced into slums. People cannot get shelter or accommodations for the rates that are being paid by this government.

They cannot even get into a slum house these days for these rates. I think it is shameful, Mr. Speaker, it is disgraceful, and I tell you this, that I am proud to be able to support a resolution of this magnitude. It is truly a Liberal resolution, Mr. Speaker. It shows that members of this side of the House have feelings for the people out there who are being neglected by society. What does the resolution_ srty? MR. DOYLE: The hon. member has not read the resolution yet. MR. NEARY: Yes, I do know what the resolution says, I do not even have to refer to it.

"BE IT RESOLVED that this House urge the government to take measures to make adequate provision for those for whom society is responsible." Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt that the resolution will be defeated. The government cannot think of anything except their wealthy friends, the oil sheiks and the oil kings. All they can think about is oil and gas and probably more gas than oil, Mr. Speaker. So I suspect this resolution, like all other good resolutions on this side of the House, is doomed, because all they can think of on that side of the ' House is gas and oil and their rich friends. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. 735~

June 24, 1981 Tape 2757 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, this resolution is put forward by the Opposition, and the last speaker stood on his feet and condemned everybody around him except the real culprits who are responsible for the high cost of 7370

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2758 NM- 1 MR. MORGAN: living in our country today, not only in Newfoundland but across Canada. They attack the open-line hosts. First of all they attack the open-line hosts, those people who happen to express freedom of opinion every day of the week if they want to. We are living in a free democracy, surely they are entitled to their own opinion. Then he chooses to attack the people who write their opinions in the newspapers, Mr. Wick Collins in particular. Oovious re~sons why he attacked Mr. Collins because last week his

article w·as very devasting in the attack he made on the Opposition. And it was not an attack, it was true facts. He put forward his ·opinion as he saw it. He sits in the gallery quite often. He sees what it is happening in the House. He sees the Opposition being so ineffective. MR. THOMS: You would think he would be bored. MR. MORGAN: He recognizes the importance of having an effective opposition in the House. Without an effective opposition you cannot have good government. And that is what is bothering me, the fact is we do not have anymore an effective opposition. MR. THOMS: MR.

SPEAKE~ (Butt) : And the hon. gentleman is - (Inaudible) . Order, please! Order! Order! MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I sat here and listend to the two speakers so -far in silence and I want the gentlemen on the other side to give me the same courtesy. Mr. Speaker, t:1e fact is, as I rrentioned last week - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: - the fact is, ~~· Speaker, that when politicians stand and debate in the House,unless they have the courage of their convictions and lay the blame where the blame should be laid - MR. HISCOCK: Where is that? 7371

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2758 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: Ottawa. Where else? MR. HISCOCK: Ottawa? MR. MORGAN: Let us look at a few things that have been ha?peninq in the last - SOME,,HON. ME ~1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Does anybody in the House recall the last general election? Does anybody in this House recall the last general election? What happened? The people of this country were deceived. The biggest fraud ever perpetrated on the voters of Canada. .. .. SOME HON. MEr1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order! MR. MORGAN: Why? Why, Mr. Speaker? Because here is how it was. MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible) • MR.

MORGAN: Because the Liberals came in, they brought in the people who were - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. Please, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ask the hen. member for Eagle River to restrain himself. MR. MORGAN: I recall watching the activities in the House of Commons and they brought in the people in wheel- chairs who were sick in the hospital, they brought them in that night for one purpose, to defeat the Tory Administration. Why?

Because they had brought in a good, common sense budget to try to bring the economic affairs of our country into some kind of stability in the person of John Crosbie. AN HON • MEMBER: Who? MR. MORGAN: In the person of John Crosbie - AN HON. MEMBER: Go on, boy. MR. MORGAN: - who had every business community across the countr y believing in what he was saying and what he was doing. Sure enough the Opposition comes in and says, "No, 7372

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2758 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: it is bad for the country of Canada. We have got to get rid of the Tories, they are going to increase the price of fuel." MR. HANCOCK: MR. MORGAN: You are not that stunned are you? Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, they are going to increase the price of gasoline in the country of Canada, the Tories, those bad old Tories. Get rid of them. That was the slogan of the Liberals in the House of Commons. Get rid of those bad old Tories. Mind,you will not be able to afford to drive back and forth to work every day because the cost of gasoline - eighteen cents a gallon increase.

My goodness, Mr. Speaker, it went on in the House -what? - a twenty­ four hour debate in the House of Commons. We have got to get rid of those bad Tories. They are going to increase the price of gasoline by eighteen cents a gallon. Now, Mr. Speaker, the people across the country now realize and understand how hypocritical, how really, really hypocritical that position was taken officially by the Liberal Party of Canada. The Opposition man who brought the motion in cannot stand it now,you see.

He brought the motion to attack the Newfoundland Government, instigated by his colleagues in the Opposition, to bring forward a motion which reads as, "AND

WHEREAS we profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opportunity for all,

BE IT RESOLVED this House urge the government," it did not say which government, obviously referring to this government here 7373

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2759 DW - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: government here dealing in a partisan wa y as the y always play it, Mr. Speaker, a partisan way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! Order, please! MR. J. MORGAN: Now if the Opposition spokes- man, Mr. Speaker, if he had brought in a motion asking us, the House of Assembly,to urge the federal govern­ ment to try to do something about the high cost of living to all Canadians,then I think Mr.

Trudeau in Ottawa, despite his arrogance of the day would maybe sit back and think, 'Well, what is going on down in Newfoundland when we have a unanimous resolution here passed by all members of the House 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: asking us in Ottawa - (Inaudible) yourselves. Mr. Speaker. Order, please! - asking us in Ottawa to look at some of the things that is going on affecting the common folk of the country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. J.

MORGAN : And let us look at sane of the things affecting the =mon folk of our country, if you want to call them that . Let us look at sane of the things that has happened today in our country. How many hundreds of Canadians today are losing their hares because they cannot afford to renew their I!Drtgages?Is that the Newfoundland governrrent,Mr. Speaker?!bw rrany Canadian:;; across the country toda y are losing their homes? Losing them! Mr. Broadbent a few days ago stood in the House of Commons and said he could count thousands of them.

He had a list of thousands of Canadians who could no longer hold their homes .and no longer had a home to li ve in. Wh y? 7374

.,. June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2759 DW - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: Oh, because the little Government down in Newfoundland with a half million people is causing inflation! That is the problem! Did he say that? No, indeed he did not! Indeed he did not! Mr. Speaker, indeed he did not! Indeed he did not! You see, if we are going to be sincere as politicians let us call a spade a spade and lay the blame where the blame should be laid. And let us give credit where credit is due!

The fact is that right now there are these thousands of Canadians losing their homes because of high interest rate which is not influence by a half million people in Newfoundland. There is no way we have influenced that kind of situation affecting all of Canada, where the federal Minister of Finance (Mr. MacEachen) decides to sit back - and I saw a big headline across the Halifax Herald recently v.hich read, "Mr. MacEachen Decides To Do Nothin_g--", a big headline, "Mr. MacEachen Decides To Do Nothing". And that is exactly what is going on today in Ottawa. Exactly what is going on! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

J. MORGAN: Because the federal minister and the federal government are refusing, Mr. Speaker, to act on important issues. Let us look at a few more factors. Let us look at inflation. I recall the Prime Minister who was still in office, the Prime Minister in the last election campaigning across the country that he was not going to let inflation be controlled by the economy of the U.S. - a quote from Mr. Trudeau. He was not going to let the economy of Canada to be guided by the economy of the U.S.

He was not going to let the inflation rate be governed by the inflation rate in the U.S. and that is exactly what he has done the very opposite. He has allowed the inflation figure in Canada be increased month after month because of the infla­ tion figures increasing in the U.S.A. 7375

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2759 ow - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the high interest rate, the high inflation rate right now is 11.5 to 12 per cent across Canada. And then suddenly out of the blue, Mr. Speaker, a little while ago there was a decision made in Ottawa which was going to be of great benefit to all Newfoundlanders: They were going out to acquire by ~eans of n~tionalization, nationalization, a part of the oil and gas industry in Canada. They wanted all Canadians to tak .e part and 7376

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2760 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: share in a company which they would b~nefit from by holding shares in, 1 A company which would benefit all Canadians,' was the quote from the Prime Minister's office- all Canadians. What were they going to do? They were going to buy, the federal government was going to buy and purchase by means of the tax- payers' dollars a company called Petrofina. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

MORGAN: Petro-Canada was going to acquire, a Crown corporation was now going to acquire Petrofina. So I listened very attentively and I said, 'Now, how is this going to benefit Newfoundl~nd?' I mean, the quote from the Prime Minister was, it would be beneficial to all Canadians. ~urely he does not recognize us as not Canadians. we are all Canadians, we are all part of Confederation. MR. THOMS: I do not think you fellows are. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if one member in this House can stand up and tell me the benefit of the acquisition of Petrofina to any Newfoundlander- I will defy him to do it, or her,because, Mr.

Speaker, the fact is that it costs Newfoundlanders four cents a gallon on every gallon of gasoline purchased at the fuel tanks - four cents a gallon to do what, Mr. Speaker, to do whatp. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: To purchase a company which does not have an outlet, a service station in this Province, has no intention of having a service station outlet in this Province and 1 therefore 1 will have no benefit whatsoever to Newfoundlanders. That is an example of the kind of thing Ottawa is doing which is having an effect on the cost of living in this Province. 7377

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2760 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker,. somebody mentioned, I think it was the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), he very casually mentioned unemployment insurance, we have so many Newfoundlanders unemployed and we agree, all of us, on this side, we have too many unemployed and the ultimate aim of our government is to get down to a point where we will have a very low unemployment rate. But if we have unemployment - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: Nhen? You have been here ten vears now. - Mr.

Speaker, surely we have one conciliation, there is, every year, very good seasonal employment; the fishery is one source, construction,you see, a second source, the forestry a third source, the tourism a fourth source and on. we go. There is a source of seasonal employment but what does seasonal employment mean, Mr. Speaker? It means that they have to work a certain number of weeks and qualify to receive unemployment insurance benefits. And what did we see last week, Mr. Speaker, coming from Mr. Axworthy, what did we see? Did we see some improvements to Newfoundland's problems?

Did we see something from the new federal Minister of Manpower, Mr. Axworthy? MR. HICKEY: Axworthy, he has the right name. MR. MORGAN: He has the right name. He gave us the axe alright 1 to the point where one of the Liberal members of Parliament, Dave Rooney, stood up and said, 'I cannot support my government if we are going to have these kinds of measures'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MORGAN: And that is the kind of thing that the member for down the St.

Barbe Coast should have said in his motion this afternoon -'he was opposed to these kinds of actions which are having a detrimental effect on the low income people in our Province' - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: - because, Mr. Speaker, it means, 7378

June 24, 1981 Tape No . 2760 SD - 3 MR . MORGAN: now , that i .f these amendments are passed in the House of Commons hopefully common sense will prevail, hopef u lly people like George Baker , whom r have respect for although he is on the opposite side :t;orm wllat \"e are, people like George Baker, a couple of members from the same caucus 7379 ,.

June 24,1981 Tape No. 2761 ah-1 MR. MORGAN: in Nova Scotia and hopefully by the kind of good opposition being provided by good Newfoundlanders like John Crosbie and Jim McGrath, that the federal government will not bring forward thesekinds nf amendments which are going to adversely effect the low income people of our Province. It is not just those people out there on social assistance 1 we are talking about hundreds of Newfoundlanders and maybe thousands who are low income earners. There are more than just those people on social assistance.

There are those people who go out to work, who have a job as fast as they can take it and work for a period of ten to twelve weeks -ten weeks, eleven weeks. And in some places in the Province they are lucky to get ten weeks of ernployment,whether it be in a fish plant, whether it be working with a construction company, building a road, whether it be building a forest access road, doing a bit of logging, whatever it may be, Mr. Speaker, they are lucky to get ten weeks.

Now ,the federal minister in his wisdom, the great man who is going to do things for the poor of the country, is going to bring in regulations and he is going to ~ncrease the number of weeks required to qualify for unemployment insurance. He is going to make it now , Mr. Speaker, up to fifteen and possibly twenty for those people in the work force 1 and higher for those joining the work force for the first time. Is that the kind of thing that is going to help the cost of living in our Province? Is that the kind of thing that is going to help the problem we have with the unemployment? No, Mr. Speaker. No.

Why did not the opposition's spokesman, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) talk about thesekindsof problems? Now, Mr. Speaker, he talked about welfare. Oh, what a man to talk about welfare. What a man to talk about welfare. I will leave that to my colleague here,the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), who knows more about the problems of the social assistance people in this Province 73sn

June 24,1981 Tape No. 2761 ah-2 MR. MORGAN: than any other minister we have ever had in this administration or before, the most knowledgeable man who can talk about social assistance problems. But he is not going out, he is not going out and making those personal ministerial decisions as we saw made on Bell Island that warranted a magisterial enquiry. He is not doing that, Mr.Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh,oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I only have five minutes left and I want some order from the Opposition. He is not going out interfering with the process.

He is not going out there using his authority and deciding this man gets a case of beer and that man gets something else as was the case over on Bell Island. The fact is he cannot stand this kind of thing. This is fact. The Magisterial Enguiry shows it as fact. Oh, no, Mr. Morgan do not dare bring up thosekinds of things because it is back in the past.Let him attack my colleague the Minister of Transportation who recently resigned from his portfolio, let him attack him, let him attack Mr. Dinn and anybody else in this House but do not dare attack him. I am not attacking, Mr.

Speaker, I am merely giving the facts and the facts speak for themselves. And what a man to talk about welfare and people on social assistance cannot get this and cannot get that. The hypocrisy of it all, Mr.Speaker. The fact is if he and his colleagues were sincere they would begin with a major problem right now, a major problem 7381

June 24, 1981 Tape 2762 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: in our Province.

I would venture to say that it will be so major in the next six or seven weeks, it is going to warrant the attention of the Prime Minister of the country in personal interference, he is going to have to personally interfere in a problem which is going to come to some kind of a drastic point not dramatically put forward by the Minister of Fisheries here in Newfoundland, not dramatically put forward by Gen~ge Baker, a Liberal member of Parliament, not dramatically put forward by Dave Rooney, not dramatically put forward by Jim McGrath or John Crosbie as was the case in the House of Commons in the last two days, but by the people themselves, the fishermen; 1,423 fishermen right now , as of the time I speak, are having half of their total earnings that they are earning this year taken from them by Revenue Canada in a very inhumane way of treating Newfoundlanders or any Canadian - inhumane, no feeling for their families, no feeling for what the end result will mean to their families; 1,423 of these families are left with as low as $9 and $10 a week to live on - $9 and $10 a week to live on with a family of five and six.

MR. HISCOCK: Go across to Labrador. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, these gentlemen can · try to push things and twist things all they like but the facts are out there. Mr. LeBlanc can come down and go to the West Coast and go back and say, 'Well, I did not hear from any fishermen about these problems.' The reason why, Mr. Speaker, was he went to Blue Beach to meet the fishermen. He met with one fisherman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: A big me ·eting he had in Blue Beach. AN HON. MEMBER: Nonsense. MR. MORGAN: No, I am not talking nonsense, I am talking facts. He met with a Mr. Dunphy, one fisherman 7382

June 24, 1981 Tape 2762 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: in Blue Beach on the Port au Port Peninsula. That is the kind of meetings he had when he was here. But, Mr. Speaker, the fact is that if he wanted to talk about problems, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) order, you are. MR. MORGAN: Was the hon. gentleman a fisherman? Mr. Speaker, the fact is that these problems are going to come to light in very dramatic terms, because it means that these fishermen who want to earn a living from our natural resource - MR. HODDER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ A point of order has been raised by the hon. the member for Fort au Port. MR. HODDER: If the hon. gentleman opposite is speaking for the record and to the people of this Province, he has the obligation to tell the truth. He has that obligation when he speaks. Now, what the Minister of Fisheries just said about the meeting at Blue Beach was not correct and I would ask the minister to clarify and to correct his remarks, please. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That is not a point of order. The hon. member will have ample time to address himself to it. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the fact is that these people I am talking about, if the Opposition wants to bring forward a resolution to talk about the problems of those people who are on low incomes, having difficulty in making ends meet, there are 1,423 of them right now 7383

June 24, 198 1 Tape 2762 EC - 3 . MR • MORG!>.N: who could use the attent .io:p. of every single member of this House, because if tl:ley do not get some attention from somebody - I had to wire the Prime Minister last Thursday, and it was not just I who was wiring him, it was 1,423 fishertnen who were wiring him asking for help, asking .Ottawa to .stop tb:e kinds of tactics being carried out by Revenue Canada in the inhumane treatment of these fishennen, inhumane to their families.

They are not opposed to paying taxes, t,hey' want to pay taxes, but they want to pay them in a reasonable fashion, not to end up with $9 and $10 a week to maintain their families on. These are the kinds of problems, Mr. Speaker, , Unfortunately, my time is up. I could go on for another hour or so on this topic and other topics. But the fact is that if the Opposition wants to be genuine, let them bring forward a resolution which. can be of benefit to u.s all.

Let us put the blame where the blame should be laid, in the lap of a federal gove .rnment in Ottawa which is insensitive towards the needs of the people of our Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. · SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Ca pe s. 73 84

June 24, 1981, Tape ' 2763, Page l -- apb MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make a few brief remarks on this resolution so ably presented by my colleague and good fr£end from St. Barbe(Mr. Bennett). I would also like to deal with some of the comments made by my hon. friend the Min£ster of Fisheries(Mr. Morgant. MR. THOMS: What? Your friend? MR. HANCOCK: Yes, he is a good friend. Mr. Speaker, I sit here and listen and there are a lot of things that go on in this Province that are the responsibility of both the provincial and the federal governments.

And I think it is about time, to make life a little better for the people of this Province, it is about time that the two of them start co-operating, getting together more often and forget this confrontation att£tude that has been developed over the last number of years, or the last number of months, and to try and have some serious talks and try to look after the basic needs of the people of this Province as is put forth £n th£s resolution. When we talk about the high cost of living in this Province and the unbearable circumstances that some people- and there are people in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, before I go any further, who are literally starving to death. I have them in my district, Mr. Speaker, on social services, who are literally starving to death. I spoke to a woman this morning who just cannot make it, she has to look for a job. She has a three or four-year-old child home - she does not have a babysitter -but she cannot afford to stay horne and support that child because she . £s just not making enough money. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries,a few seconds ago, spoke about the eighteen cents that Mr. Crosbie imposed on a gallon of 7385

June 24, 198~, Tape 2763, Page .2 -,.--apb MR. HANCOCK: gasoline. . I would like to point out to the minister, Mr. Speaker -and I travelled my district during that campaign - that the . Liberals at no time, or in no way, shape or form said that gasoline would not rise. What they did say at that time, the federal Liberals in Ottawa, was· they would not impose immediately an 18 per cent tax on gasol.ine to get revenue for - an excise tax on gasoline to get revenue for the Canadian government. They said they wo~ld not impose an 18 cent tax. They never said first or last, Mr.

Speaker, that gasoline would not increase. They never said that. Mr. Crosbi .e was going to impose an automatic ~8 cent excise tax on gasoline.Along with the tax that this Province is now imposing, it is unbearable on the people of this Province and it is driving the cost of living so high that the pe .ople of this Province are starving to death. On one hand you have the - and I would like to know if the government support the Prime Minister or not, Mr. Speaker.

On one hand we have the Prime Minister of this country trying to regulate the price of gasoline in this: Province so that it will not put an unbelievable burden on the people of this Province,and here you have Mr. Lougheed on the other hand who seems to be in bed with Mr. Peckford, or vice-versa, trying to raise the price of gasoline to world levels, or 75 per cent of world levels. I wonder what side the government now in power in this Province comes down on, whe.ther it be on Mr.

Lougheed's side or on the side of the Prime Minister who is trying to re .gulate . and control and keep the price of gasoline down so we are not putting .an unbearable burden on the people of this Province? We talk about social services and what people are living on. There is a 10 per cent increase on this now, which was passed yesterday in 73BR

June 24, l98l, Tape 2763, Page 3 -- apb MR. HANCOCK : the budget, out just imagine one child and two adults trying to live on $345 a month, Mr . Speaker. It works out to $3. 50 . a da .y, Mr. Speaker , $3.SQ a day per person . And th.at is. not very much to live on. It is alarming to look at the result as you go down . Tlie larger tlie family the less the person has to live on. With four children and two adult s in the family they receive $4 .16 a mont~ and 73B7

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2764 EL - 1 MR. HANCOCK: that averages out to $2.30 per day per person. Mr. Speaker, there is nobody in this House of Assembly who could imagine trying to feed a family on $2.30 a day. There is nobody, Mr. Speaker. I could not do it with mine . AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HANCOCK: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HANCOCK: A lot of it is poor management. Maybe so but I think that - A lot of it is poor management. Well, I agree with the member, but they are so depressed and in such a depressed state that is the only relief they can get .is to either hit alcohol or hit drugs.

That is the only relief they have in sight. But, Mr. Speaker, go down to a family of nine. Seven children and two adults, $513.00 a month, $1.90 per person per day­ AN HON. MEMBER: Plus the Family Allowance. MR. HANCOCK: is true, that is right. Plus the Family Allowance, that It may bring it up to $2.20 a day per person, per child, Mr. Speaker, which is not a heck of a lot, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to get back, Mr. Speaker--and you talk about the cost of living going up in this Province.

If everybody- and I 1 in principle r like my hon. friend said a couple of days ago about the local preference policy, it is great to have a local preference policy but it is another thing to go advertise a local preference policy from one end of the country to the other, Mr. Speaker, I cannot im­ agine what would happen to the unemployment rate in this Province and how the cost of living would go, Mr. Speaker, if the Govern­ ment of Ontario or the Government of Alberta carne in with a local preference policy. I cannot imagine, Mr. Speaker, 7388

June 24, 1981 .Tape No. 2764 EL - 3 MR. HANCOCK: And I can assure bon. members of this House, Mr. Speaker, if something is not done within the next two weeks you are going to see fishermen in my riding taking guns, shooting those whales and you will have every Greenpeace movement in Canada and the United States down here witnessing what is going on, Mr. Speaker. And once again we will be painted as being bar­ b~rians. I am encouraging this type of thing to happen because that is ;the only way we are going to get any action, Mr. Speaker.

I have a meeting next week with the fish­ ermen in my district,pertaining to the whale situation as it is today, and I am going to encourage those people to take guns and dynamite or whatever in their boats to try and destroy those whales so we will get some attention, Mr. Speaker. There are people out there now who cannot feed their families because of whales, the damage that has occurred last year, the year before and this year,and still no sign of a compensation programme in sight. So, I think, Mr. Speaker, it is ridiculous. And I am going to see to it,before this week is over, that Mr.

LeBlanc lives up to his commitment that he made to the people a year ago,when he said there would be a compensation pro­ gramme this year. MR. ~10:l'3Al:·l: (Inaudible) wire the Prime Minister to have him (inaudible) . 73sn

June 24, 1981 Tape 2765 PK - 1 MR. HANCOCK: I am continuously warning him, Mr. Speaker, but it seems to be of no avail. I do not know what happens to the telegrams once they leave Newfoundland, whether they get lost between here and Ottawa. MR. HORGAN: Romeo , where art thou? MR. HANCOCK: But, Mr. Speaker, it is about time-MR. TULK: We all know where Jim Horgan is. MR. HANCOCK : - that this problem was dealt with in a serious manner, Mr. Speaker. It is about time the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) took it seriously and tried 'to come up with a cost shared programme, if necessary, between the provincial and federal government. If not, why in the heck do we need a Provincial Department of Fisheries to begin with? MR. HANCOCK: It may be the minister better wait on Ottawa. It is driving the cost of living up in my area, Mr. Speaker, that whale damage. There are people out there now who had theirtrap moved the day before yesterday about 200 feet down the shore by one whale, Mr. Speaker. Those monsters are about 20 to 30 ton, they just take the trap like it was a little skiff and go on with it.

There is no stopping them, Mr. Speaker. But they will be stopped this Summer. I got an awful feeling that we are going to be painted as barbarians, especially in the district which I representrthis Summer and I hope the heck it happens tomorrow~ But, Mr. Speaker, the cost of living in this Province is the highest in Canada. · It is unbearable to the people who are try .ing to live on fixed incomes. 739 1

June 24, 1981 Tape 2765 PK - 2 MR. HANCOCK: There is no way, I think the hon. Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey} will have to agree with me,there is no way he can expect people in this day and age,a family of nine,to live on $513 a month. It is just not possible. You have to heat your home, you have to clothe your children, you have to send your children to school, you have to try and give them the nutrition that is going to keep them alive, and it is just not possible, Mr. Speaker, for people to feed their families.

And with those few remarks I would like to support the resolution and call upon the government, Mr. Speaker, to try and take some measures - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HANCOCI<: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HANCOCK: h'hat about Ottawa? - bo~h levels of government. Hear, hear! It is about time, both levels of government, Mr. Speaker - when it comes to the people of this Province,if one government is at fault and the other one is not, I will come down on the side of the government who is at fault.

But I think in this resolution here both levels of government have a responsibility , the provincial government as well as the federal government,to look after and try to keep the cost of living in this Province down to what it should be and at an acceptable level, Mr. Speaker. That is about all I have to say. There are other members over here who want to speak and I am sure there are members on the other side. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms} : The hon. Minister of Social Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7392

June 24, 1981 Tape 2765 PK - 3 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, first of all I am somewhat surprised that the bon. gentleman brought in a resolution such as this. I would like to just quickly go through it. It says, "WHEREAS the high cost of living in this Province has placed an unbearable burden on those who are dependent on government assistance; MR. HICKEY: AND

WHEREAS we profess to live in a society based on equal rights and opportunity for all;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House urge the government to take measures to make adequate provisions for those for whom society is responsible." Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a very motherhood kind of resolution, if one took it in a very general term. But what would we be supporting, Your Honour, if we on this side were to support this r.esolution? The question arises, what would we be supporting? The answer to that ·question is, we do not know because the resolution does not say. It just says, to make provisions, to take measures. To take what measures? Whatkinds of measures is the hon. gentleman talking about?

In the middle of his speech he indicated that nobody over here knows what is going on in the Province. AN HON. MEMl3ER: Quite true. MR. HrCKEY: I can assure my hon. friend that is not so. I can assure him khat I know very much what is going on in my department and what is going on with regarc to families and how families are having difficulties in making ends meet.And nobody on this side will stand in their place and deny that the high cost of living today, 7393

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2766 GS - 1 MR. HICKEY: double digit inflation today, aims to having an effect on the families in this Province. Well, I did not hear the hon. gentleman say who was responsible for that. Is he telling this House, Mr. Speaker, that this Assembly, this government, is responsible for inflation and the high cost of living? If we are, what have we done to bring about the high cost of living? MR. HISCOCK: Mount Scio House. MR. HICKEY: Blarney~ You know, the hon. gentleman can come up with all those fancy things he wants to. Mr. Speaker, the fact remains that inflation - MR.

HISCOCK: Linerboard, Corne by Chance. MR. HICKEY: - why does the hon. gentleman not keep his mouth shut now, he will have a chance to say what he wants to say and get all his nice little digs in later? - the fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that inflation is·a problem of the Western world, not just Newfoundland, not just this country but the entire Western world. But the hon. gentleman would like to blame that on this government too. MR. HISCOCK: Tell about the fisheries (inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Let me say to my hon. friend from St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett), Mr.

Speaker, that , number one , his resolution would have some meaning if it, in the first instance,called o~ the federal government of this country to take some measures and, ~aving won that battle, then to call on this government to follow suit. Well, if the hon. gentleman now will follow my trend of thought, he just might agree with me. Because, Mr. Speaker, in the first instance the initiative has to be taken by the federal government. Monies paid out to social assistance recipients happen to be under a cost-sharing formula with the federal government. Mr.

Speaker, at a time when we need more money from the federal government in the social sector, "7 'l r. I t.Ju'i

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2766 GS - 2 ~- HICKEY: what is the federal government saying? They are saying, Mr. Speaker, that they want to cut the social sector. Mr. MacEachen, the federal Finance Minister, informed his colleagues in the social envelope that they must bring about a trimming of the budget in the social sector.

The hon. gentleman would be more appro­ priately - it would be more appropriate for him, I should say, if he were to appeal to his colleague in Ottawa to back off from those cuts which might well enable this Province and other provinces and territories across this country to do more for those people who need help instead of facing a possible cut, a real possibility of a cut in the social sector. o~, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman might well, instead of corning here with a resolution which asks this government to take measures, have addressed himself to the question of the whole income security system in Canada - and I will give him a couple o£ figures which might set him thinking - the total bill of which is $20.166 billion, two-thirds of which goes into the pockets of the non-poor. Two-thirds, Mro Speaker, of all the money spent in the social sector across this country finds its way into pockets of the people who are not termed to be poor by the standards of living in this country.

If the hon. gentleman in Ottawa wants to do some cutting, he might start cutting in the right places instead of attempting to cut and instead of attempting to balance his budget and correct his balance of 7395

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2767 IB-1 MR. HICKEY: payments and the national debt on the backs of the poor across this country and in this Province. MR. BENNETT: Would the hon. qentleman comment on some of our remarks on the resolution, just as I asked? MR. HICKEY: to ask a question? MR. BENNETT: Does the hon. gentleman want I was wondering if you would respond to our remarks on tl!~s resolution, some of the things which you have control over such as cutting back, once a recipient here gets a CPP increase from Ottawa, things of that nature. I wish the minister would talk on those things. MR.

HICKEY: It is not unusual, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. gentleman to want me to confine myself to my own little shop and the things over which I have control - MR. BENNETT: They are provincial matters not fe~eral matters. MR. HICKEY: because that is convenient for the hon. gentleman to ask me that. He does not want me to say anything about the federal Liberals. He does not want me to say anything about his position which is unknown to this House and the position of the Opposition on the offshore. They have had three or four different positions.

When this government articulatesits position and say, 'We own the offshore and we must have control of the offshore to create employment', when this government says, 'We want shared jurisdiction of the fishery so that my colleague can create more jobs', when this government says, 'We want to develop the Lower Churchill and all the other hydro resources to create jobs' 1 What is the position Of the hon. gentleman? I do not know, I will have to check with my colleagues. Yesterday it was this, tomorrow it might be something else. I have not really made up my mind.

So no wonder he would want me to confine myself in the provincial sector over which 7396

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2767 IB-2 -MR. HICKEY: I have control and not say anything about the federal government. Well,I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to accede to the hon. gentleman's request. He dug the hole for himself when he brought in this resolution and I feel sorry for him. Mr. Speaker, what has this government done? And, Hr. Speaker, I will not go back , although I am greatly ternpted,to when I was Minister of Social Services in 1972, I am going tG resist that temptation. I will not make any pronouncements on what I found or what was there or what I caused to happen or anything of that nature.

That is the past, we will bury it. But, Mr. Speaker, what has this government done during the current fiscal year for the poor of this Province? HR. THOHS: (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Does the hon. gentleman want to rise in his place and oppose the 10 per cent: I challenqe any of you over there. ~1R. HANCOCK: Oh! (Inaudible). MR. HICKEY: Well,then,if you do not oppose it, gentlemen , agree with it. But you cannot make up your ·minds on that anymore than you can on the offshore. Anything, Mr. Speaker, for political expediency. It has been the history of the Liberal Party, Mr.

Speaker, political expediency even on the backs of the poor. I saw it when I was a civil servant. The more people you can get on welfare the better you like it. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not so now. MR. HICKEY: That is so. I saw it on the Cape Shore,my dear man, when I worked there. I saw that when I saw a Liberal Cabinet Minister get up and say, 'You know what side your bread it buttered on,and you will know how to vote, and you know that if you do not vote the right way you are not going to have that bread'. That was 7397

June 24, 1981 MR. HICKEY: Sm1E HON. MEMBERS : MJL HICKEY: Tape No. 2767 IB-3 a Liberal Cabinet Minister. Shame ! Shame ! Shame ! And I sat in the audience and I heard it. And, Mr. Speaker, if there was ever any doubt in my mind to enter the field of politics then I made up my mind that night to help stamp that out. MR . HANCOCK: That was before my time. MR . HICKEY: I know it ~"as. I am not saying the hoh. gentleman is responsible for it . But, Mr. Speaker, let me get on to Mor e interesting things,let me tell hon. gentlemen in case they do not know,what this administration has done this year, just this year.

The budget in my department, Mr. Speaker, is $143 million . A 10 per cent increase in social assistance rate, a 15 per cent increase in foster home rate and regular child welfare allowances, a 20 per cent increase in clothing 7398

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2768 RA - 1 MR. T. HICKEY: allowancesfor foster children, $90.00 per month allowances for .preschool children,which we did not have before. An additional $1.8 million, Mr. Speaker, swelling the budget to $4.2 million, in employment opportunities to help create jobs for people on social assistance, a 10 per cent increase to licensed boarding home rates effective July 1st, and a 10 per cent increase in clothing and personal care allowances for residents of homes for special care. Now, Mr. Speaker, is that all there is to those people whom the hon. gentleman from St.

Barbe (Mr.Bennett), in his resolution,is referring? And the answer, Mr. Speaker, is no that is not all, there is more. To those people the hon. gentleman refers to who are starving to death -~nd I challenge, Mr. Speaker, any member of this House to produce one case where there is anyone in this ~rovince starving to death. I have issued that challenge before and I issue it again today. That is a no no.That is not so. In addition to all of the things . that I have just read, Mr.

Speaker, there is provision for emer­ gency assistance, there is provision for$50.00 additional assist­ ance on top of regular rates, there is provision in my budget for special needs, where there are needs over and above the ordinary, and where there are needs in terms that would be considered to be special. And, Mr. Speaker, there is no level as such on this area of special needs, it depends on the case,it depends on the merits of that case,and it depends on the circumstances in the home, over and above the $50.00 and over and above the regular rates. So, Mr.

Speaker, you know, it is not right to say that there is a system here of social services that do not zero in on the people in need. Every single programme that is in my department is developed in such a way that it zeros in on need, every single programme in terms of money that we pass out is based on the merits of each case and based on need. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not standing here today, and I do not guess I ever will,and say that the amount that 7399

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2768 RA - 2 MR. T. HICKEY: we give,putting it all together,is to replace inco~e, is to be more attractive than employment, gainful employment. What kind of a system would we have if we had that? That would only discourage people, You know, what reward would there be for wor:king if, in fact,it was to be something like that? But, Mr. Speaker, I have not and I will not deny that people are finding it difficult to make both ends meet, Of cour:se they are.

And as long as inflation is rampant, as long a·s it continues to increase, so will they find difficulty and so will they experience difficulty in making both ends meet. Now, Mr. Speaker, my hon, friend from LaPoile (~r. Neary) made some reference to abuse and I just want to briefly comment on it. I accept his remarks in the spirit in which,I assume, he offered them. And I was not here 1 I did not hear the exact words,I just got sort of the tail end of it. I assume that he concludes that some of my. people are heavy-handed in terms of investigating cases. MR. NEARY: Private investigators (inaudible} MR. T.

HICKEY: Not private investigators, a branch of my staff which are called investiga~ors. I mean,they are not _private investigators called in. MR. NEARY: (.Inaudible 1 MR. T. HICKEY: Yes. We have a number of investigators throughout _ . the Province. MR. NEARY: Who are they? MR. T. HICKEY: That is their job. MR. NEARY: Who are they? Are they ex-police? MR. HICKEY: No, no, no, They are more social work oriP-nt~d than anything else. MR. NEARY: Well, identify them. I do not mean names (inaudible) their qualifications. MR. HICKEY: There qualification?

There is no qualif- ication based on like an ex-policeman or anything of that nature. There might be one or two. The qualification is that 7400

June 24, 1981 Ta,pe No. 2768 RA - 3 MR. T. HICKEY: of Grade X1 education and based on a certain background that they have 7 I; 0 1

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2769 GS - 1 MR. HICKEY: in terms of positions that they have held. And very high on the agenda of screening those people, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that they have tact and understanding and compassion - very much. Well, Mr. Speaker, let me make a few remarks with regard to it. Those people have a job to do and they are given a mandate to do it and the mandate is this: that where there is rip-off,'where there is abuse of the program, that is to be found out and dealt with and, Mr. Speaker, I do not make any apology for that.

I am answerable for every single dollar that is in my budget and in my department and I am answerable to the Auditor General; I am answerable under the Financial Administration Act; I am accountable for every single cent that is spent by my department. And, Mr. Speaker, as long as there is money going into pockets where there is not eligibility for that money to go into those pockets, then something has to be done and we are doing it. It is not so, Mr. Speaker, that people investigating will go in and just make assumptions and cut people off allowances.

In fact, I have seen too many cases of recent times where my staff bent over backward9 before they cut people off allowances, where every benefit is afforded a client and there is no prejudging done. Mr. Speaker, I guess the important thing out of all of this, in terms of this resolution, is the fact that there has to be a morb flexible system at the federal level before a Province of this kind, a government which has the problems that we have in terms of revenues, limited revenues, are able to deal with the issues that the bon. gentleman refers to. 7402

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2769 GS - 2 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side support the term 'just society' but we are not the architect of that term. The architect of the just society is Pierre Elliot Trudeau - MR. POWER: MR. HICKEY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. POWER: built. MR. HISCOCK: MR. HICKEY: The architect? Yes, the architect. Oh, oh! Order. I would hate to go into a house he (Inaudible) and his oil.

The hon. gentleman opposite - again it would be more appropriate for him to appea~ to a Prime Minister who must at some time or other have had some compassion in order to coin that term just society and appeal to him to slacken off and loosen up a little bit on his federal funds to make them available to this Province and other provinces. And I can assure the hon. gentleman that every program the federal government will offer this Province or make available to this Province on a fifty-fifty basis, this government will match it every step of the way and do something for the poor of this Province. MR.

HISCOCK: (Inaudible) careful there. MR. HICKEY: I am careful. The hon. gentleman does not have to worry about my being careful. MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible) reception. MR. HICKEY: The hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, does not know what he is talking about when he is talking about anyone in my department not accepting any program on a fifty-fifty basis. MR. HISCOCK: Talking about your department • 7403

June 24, 1981 Tape No. 2769 GS - 3 MR. HICKEY: I am talking about my department, that is what this resolution deals with.