Manitoba Hansard — 20 December 1994 (Sitting 14, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

- - Sixth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VoL XLIV No. 14 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, December 20, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Member5. Constituencies and Political AfT'iliation lilaul Constituepc;y &m ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARREIT, Becky Wellington NDP CERILU, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK., Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin- Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY,James, Hon. Arthur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel P.C. EDWARDS, Paul St. James Lib. ENNS, Hany, Hon. I..akeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon.

Ctarleswood P.C. -EVANS, C1if Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRlESEN,Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. Gll.LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. GRAY, Avis Crescentwood Lib. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. lflCKES, Geot"ge Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkstc:r Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris P.C.

MARTINDALE, Doug BUirows NDP McALPINE, Geny Sturgeon Cieclt P.C. - McCORMICK, Ncmna Osborne Lib. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina P.C. PALLISTER., Brian Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone P.C. ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain P.C.

SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kiikfi.cld Park P.C. SVEINSON, Ben La V erendrye P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP Vacant River Heights Vacant Flin Flon

- 673 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, December 20, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MA TIER OF PRIVILEGE Sale of McKenzie Seeds Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege. As is part of our rules and is the tradition in terms of matters of privilege, it will be accompanied by a motion.

In phrasing this matter of privilege, I want to indicate that it is a matter of significant concern to us not only in regard to the particular matter I will be dealing with but in tenm of a number of similar items, items of significant public importance that have not been scrutinized by this Legislature and have not been scrutinized by a committee of this Legislature or in fact been the result of any discussion in this Legislature. While I am referring today to the circumstances surrounding the sale of McKenzie Seeds, it could apply to the Winnipeg Jets.

It could apply to a number of issues of major public importance and the contempt which this government has shown in handling the public discussion and public debate on those important issues.

I want to remind members of this House of the principles of Canadian Parliamentary Law, because this applies particularly to this case, which is outlined in Beauchesne Citation 1 which indicates that the principles of Canadian parliamentary law are: to protect a minority, restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority and to enable every member to express opinions and give abundant opportunity for the consideration of every measure. That is something that I will show, Mr. Speaker, has not been followed in the case of McKenzie Seeds.

I want to go further to outlining why we believe this is a matter of privilege. First of all, as members are no doubt aware, your role is to determine whether there is a prima facie case of privilege, and then it is up to the House to decide from that point on.

I want to stress, as is outlined in Citation 24, that when we are talking about parliamentary privilege, it is the "sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, and by Members of each House individually, without which they could not discharge their functions and which exceed those possessed by other bodies or individuals." I want to stress it refers to matters, refers to traditions, the roles of members of this House and of the House generally which enable them to follow in terms of fulfilling their obligations as a member.

I want to suggest that I can go further and establish, as I will show in the next fuw minutes, that there is not only a question of whether we have been able to fulfill our obligations as members of the Legislature in the case of McKenzie Seeds--we have not--there is a question of the degree of contempt shown by this government in refusing repeatedly to allow any avenue for consideration or discussion of the McKenzie Seeds sale. I want to outline that, Mr.

Speaker, because I believe there is clear evidence of contempt First of all, today, by press release, we have the antlOUilCeiirnt that McKenzie Seeds has been sold We have-[applause] Well, it is interesting that members opposite applaud We have requested a copy of the sale. The govermn:nt has refused We have requested a copy of the sale through Freedom oflnformation. The govemmenthas refused We have requested, for the past six months, that the committee on McKenzie Seeds, which did not complete its sitting in the last session of the Legislature, be called, and the government has refused to do so. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we find today, without any statement by the minister in this House, without

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 any debate whatsoever, without anything being said in this House beyond the questions of the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), -we now find today that McKenzie Seeds has been sold We believe the govemor.nt has shown contempt for this Legislature, as it did with the Winnipeg Jets agree~rent and as it is doing with the McKenzie Seeds sale, Mr. Speaker, and it is of concern obviously to people in Westman and Brandon, many of whom have questions about the sale. "'

(1335) It is of concern, Mr. Speaker, because we know of the fact that this govem~rent has been wanting to do this for many years, going back to the Sterling Lyon administration initially, and now is, in the dying days of its mandate, selling McKenzie Seeds. Apart from the politics of a govem~rent that is so arrogant as to make important decisions in the final mmths, in the dying days of its mandate, we believe McKenzie Seeds and the sale and divestiture that is part of the announcement today should be subject to scrutiny by this Legislature.

We believe this govemirent has shown contempt for ~rembers of this Legislature, for the Legislatme itself, Mr. Speaker, and for the people ofBrandoo, of Westman and of this province as a whole. We demand to have scrutiny of the sale. We demand the govem~rent put on hold any sale, and we demand that we have our ability, as is part of the privilege of the parliamentary system of Irembers of this House, to have the opportunity to scrutinize that sale.

That is why I move that the failure of the govemment to allow the scrutiny of the sale of McKenzie Seeds be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. Hon. Jim Emst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat surprised that the member for Thompson would stand on a matter of privilege with respect to this matter. In no way has he indicated any kind of prima facie case whatsoever. First of all, the intentions of the government were made known back in March or April of 1994 when in fact we did indicate that we had an unsolicited offer for the purchase of the company.

We indicated that we were prepared to consider offers m the purchase of the company based on six conditions. Those conditions were made well known, and as a result of those conditions, a number of offers came forward. 1hey were evaluated by the government, and it was then detennined that one would be selected Other events overtook that which caused some delay in determining that all of the conditions could be reasonably ~ret. 'Ihere is no iotmt of trying to hide anything from anyone. That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Mr.

Speaker, this has been well known for at least eight or nine months, and the intentions of the government have been well known over that period of time. As a matter of fact, discussions actually took place the last time the committee ~ret to deal with McKenzie Seeds regarding this sale, so hpw they can claim today this is a secret, I have no idea, no idea at all.

If recollection serves ~re correctly, I do not believe there was a question of privilege raised with respect to the sale of Manfor, and I do not believe there was any question of privilege raised with respect to the sale of ManOil, and I do not believe there was any question of privilege raised with respect to the sale of Manitoba Data Services, all of which were sold mi the saire kind of basis and the saire kind of plan. 1here was no iotmtion--in fact, to make an argument even that there was some kind of intent to not involve the Irembers of the Legislature is, quite frankly, silly. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, if you go through Beauchesne' s-and it does not take you very far you can actually go right to the very first clause, where it will talk about parliamentary responsi- - -

- - December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 bilities of members and being able to hold the government to account for actions that they take. I believe that there is a bigger issue to this. It is s~t symbolic in terms of what it is that this goveDltlrDt is doing on not only McKenzie Seeds but other issues. I recall when we used to have a minority goveDltlrDt, and the minority government was UJ.Jch JD)1'e accountable, made available more committee meetings and so forth, so that opposition members and, in fact, government backbenchers would be, in fact, able to put forward questions and try to solicit exactly what it is that the government was attempting to do. •

(1340) But since the Filmon team received that majority government, what we have seen is a government that is prepared to go on a course in which it does not want to share the directions with other members of this Legislative Chamber. We could talk about McKemie Seeds. We have made requests. We have made written requests. We have made oral requests for information, but to no avail. You can talk about the Faneuil and the commotion that is going on in that area, the Lotteries Corporation, the Winnipeg Jets.

In fact, had it not been for the Provincial Auditor, we would never have gotten the government to admit to sorre of the problems that they had entered into. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you, even though the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) brings up a valid matter of privilege, I would argue, but it is a nmch broader abuse of the Legislature and the whole process in which this goveDltlrDt, the Filmon govellllrent, has not really provided members of this Legislature the opportunity to hold them accountable in a nmch more sincere fashion.

I would encomage the goveJlllrent, because there is a good chance that if this ruling does not necessarily go in favour of the opposition or Beauchesne citations that the m:mber for Thompson made reference to, that the government should take very seriously what their responsibilities are and provide for opposition tm:nbers the opportunity to be able to debate and to have committees meet on a regular basis and, at the very least, if you do not want to sit down in committees or inside the Chamber, to provide us the information. We have a right to that information.

Honour that right and give us the material that we need in order that we can provide nmch more creative aitical analysis of what exactly this government is doing. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank all honomable members for their advice on this matter. A matter of privilege is a serious concern, and I am going to take this matter under advisenrnt to cmsult the authorities. I will return to the House with a ruling. PRESENTING PETITIONS Improvement of Highway 391 Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Robert Francois, Fred Hart, Ella Moose and others requesting that the government of Manitoba consider reviewing the state of Highway 391 with a view towards improving the condition and safety of the road. Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Reg Piche, Jean Gilbert, Carolyne Lynch and others urging the Minister responsible for Education (Mr. Manness) to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable m:mber (Mr. l.aimureux). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read. An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read.

676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 Mr.

Oerk (W"Illiam Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: TIIAT in July 1994, the Minister of Education introduced an action plan entitled Renewing Education: New Directions; TIIAT this report will make physical education an optional course in Grades 9 to 12; TIIAT the physical education curriculum should be regularly reviewed to ensure that it meets the needs of students; TIIAT the govmmrnt is failing to recognize the benefits of physical education such as improved physical fitness, more active lifestyles, health promotion, self-discipline, skill development, stress reduction, strengthened peer relationships, weight regulation, stronger bones, reduced risk of health diseases and improved self-confidence.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly mge the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. •

(1345) Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Leonard Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the proposed changes to the Manitoba curriculum would have no physical education required for students after Grade 8; and

WHEREAS the social, intellectual, emotional and physical benefits of physical education have been proven through extensive research; and,

WHEREAS requiring physical education for high school sends a message that physical activity is important for life and encourages high school students to make life choices to stay active and it fits into a preventative health strategy; and,

WHEREAS many parents, students, medical professionals and educators, health and recreation specialists are urging that physical education be increased in schools. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Education to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Dispense . The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the proposed changes to the Manitoba curriculum would have no physical education required for students after Grade 8; and

WHEREAS the social, intellectual, emotional and physical benefits of physical education have been proven through extensive research; and,

WHEREAS requiring physical education for high school sends a message that physical activity is important for life and encourages high school students to make life choices to stay active and it fits into a preventative health strategy; and,

WHEREAS many parents, students, medical professionals and educators, health and recreation specialists are urging that physical education be increased in schools. - -

- December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Education to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable nrmber (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the proposed changes to the Manitoba curriculum would have no physical education required for students after Grade 8; and

WHEREAS the social, intellectual, emotional and physical benefits of physical education have been proven through extensive research; and,

WHEREAS requiring physical education for high school sends a message that physical activity is important for life and encourages high school students to make life choices to stay active and it fits into a preventative health strategy; and,

WHEREAS many parents, students, medical professionals and educators, health and recreation specialists are urging that physical education be increased in schools. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Education to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Reid). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the proposed changes to the Manitoba curriculum would have no physical education required for students after Grade 8; and

WHEREAS the social, intellectual, emotional and physical benefits of physical education have been proven through extensive research; and,

WHEREAS requiring physical education for high school sends a message that physical activity is important for life and encourages high school students to make life choices to stay active and it fits into a preventative health strategy; and,

WHEREAS many parents, students, medical professionals and educators, health and recreation specialists are urging that physical education be increased in schools. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Education to consider maintaining physical education as part of the core curriculum from kindergarten to senior high. Housing Authorities Voluntary Boards Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable nrmber (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly shewth that:

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994

WHEREAS thousands of Manitobans depend upon public housing as affordable housing geared to their income for themselves and their families; and

WHEREAS these units are particularly important for thousands of low income seniors and single parents; and

WHEREAS the provincial government upon the request of the federal Liberal government has increased without notice the rent payable for tenants; and

WHEREAS the federal Liberal government has eliminated all funding for new public housing; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has abolished the voluntary boards of public housing authorities and made other cuts to the public housing program in this province. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister responsible for Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider cancelling the recent unilateral rent hikes and restoring the voluntary boards of the housing authorities. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present the Annual Report for the Department of Natural Resources for the year 1993-94.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 220- The Environmental Rights Act Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), that leave be given to iDttoduce Bill220, The Environmental Rights Act (Loi sur les droits environnementaux), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, it is a proud moment for me to introduce this bill today after having presented arguments in favour of such legislation in my former career in the private sector.

This bill, for the first time, empowers all Manitobans to become stewards of the environ ment by establishing the right of individuals to take legal actioo to protect the environment against damage and to help ensure a healthful environ ment, but also empowers people to initiate a government investigation into allegations of environmental damage. As well, the bill protects employees who blow the whistle on polluting employers. By the way, Mr. Speaker, a minister cannot waive these fines. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD SmartHealth Contract Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, about a week and a half ago, we asked questions to the government concerning the Royal Bank's SmartHealth $100-million health proposal. At the time, the govemment indicated that they had not signed the contract, but they were developing the contract and would make it available to all members of the public. Since this issue has been raised in the public, we are getting considerable feedback from citizens who are very opposed to the government proceeding with this proposal with the Royal Bank.

Yesterday, oo a natiooal radio show, the Privacy Commissioner from British Columbia said: I regard the Manitoba example of the Royal Bank as a thin edge of the wedge because of all of the poweroftecbnologyand technocracy and the cost efficiency of bigger and bigger databases in both the public sector and the private sector and then interlinking of those databases so the distinction between the private and public sector disappears. -

- - December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 I would like to ask the government today, will they table their proposed contract, so that all of us can be assured of the validity of the comments made by members opposite about the privacy of the public dealing with their own health records and the Royal Bank proposal? •

(1350) Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition has referred to comments made by the Privacy Commissioner for the province of British Columbia, I believe. I would invite the Privacy Commissioner for British Columbia to make himself or herself aware of the opportunity that I have made available to the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), and I repeat it for the Leader of the Opposition.

We would be pleased to offer honourable members and the Privacy Commissioner any kind of a briefing that is necessary to provide assurances for them and for members of the public. The public health infonmtion system is going to be implemented in such a way that the privacy we guarantee today, to the extent that we can, will remain the highest priority or, I would say, more than likely be enhanced. I do not think the honourable Leader of the Opposition realizes that when he takes the position he takes, he defends the kind of system where people's health records are found in the back alleys of Winnipeg.

I do not support that. We want to put an end to that, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, this is a hundred-million dollar agreement that this government is entering into with a subsidiary of a private bank dealing with the health records of all Manitobans. We do not need the political Ihetoric from the minister. Either he has the intestinal fortitude to table the draft document or he does not And it appears to us that he will not table the document. I would like to ask the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey), will he table today the draft contract for all Manitobans to see, and will this government allow the public to debate this issue of where they want their health care records to go, and hold off signing this $100-million six-year agreement until after the election so the public can have a say on this agreenrnt rather than the Tories signing away our health records on the dying days of their mandate? Mr. McCrae: I think, Mr.

Speaker, what is becoming clearer and clearer with every day that New Democrats and their friends get involved in the debate about health care improvements in Manitoba is that they want to preserve a status quo about which they complain all the time. Our mission here in Manitoba, as it is elsewhere in this country, is to make improvements so that we can generate the kind of outcomes that we should be looking for with the expenditure of ftmds and all of the expertise that is put to work in Manitoba to create a healthy environment and to work with those who require health care services.

Honourable members opposite, in every utterance, it does not seem to matter whether it is an improvement or if it is a problem, they want to preserve what we have had which was dying and which would have died if it had been left in the hands of New Democrats. We were spending $500 million less six, seven years ago, Mr. Speaker, on health care than we are today. Members of the opposition seem to want to take us back to those days. I do not want to go there. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I can only assume that the minister is hiding the proposed contract and is unwilling to provide it to the public.

Desktop Management System Request for Proposals Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a final question to the acting Premier.

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 In June and July of this year the government developed a proposal to commercialize or move into the private sector the desktop computer systems in Manitoba. Now you would think after theW ang fiasco that this government had learned that they are not very good at doing this in terms of the costs to the taxpayer and the ineffectiveness of their technology. This proposal is selling all the government inventmy in the desktop information system and the technology assets which of course is information to the public.

I would li1re to know whether the government is proceeding with this proposal. I will table a copy of it. The target date is January of 1995, and again, what will the impact of this be on the cordideotiality of citizens on their tax information and other information in light of the fact the government has no privacy information in this province? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, unlike the opposition members who want to leave all kinds of accusations and inaccurate informatic:n in the public, Mr.

Speaker, the project which the ~mber refers to is in the process of being discussed with the managers within the system 'Ihere has not been a final decision made, but we are looking at better ways of operating a more efficient government, as we have demonstrated in many areas. I am ex~ly surprised at the Leader of the Opposition, whose members raised a matter of privilege today on McKenzie Seeds and he does not even ask a question on it, Mr. Speaker. So much for how mixed up that party is. A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. Sales Agreement Tabling Request Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, in the dying days of this government, with no moral authority, with no authorization from the Legislature, with no mandate from the people, the government has sold a multimillion dollar public asset. In privatizing McKenzie Seeds, it has transferred control of the company to Toronto and opened the door of uncertainty with the possibility of jobs being eventually transferred out of Brandon. Will the minister now table the agree~nt of sale as a courtesy to the Legislature and in the interests of open government? What has this minister been hiding? What has he got to hide? •

(1355) Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister responsible for A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd.): Mr. Speaker, ooe of the m>st telling c~nts that has been made during this debate was a letter written by an employee of McKenzie Seeds who says: Stop playing politics with my job, please. Just a little background on this. When that ~mber was minister in charge of McKenzie Seeds, he says: Frankly, the seed business is the last industry that we want to be in. He says that the deal fell through because Ferry Morse was unwilling to guarantee that the Brandon plant would krep operating for more than two years.

He said. if the U.S. company had agreed to remain in Brandon, we would have approved the sale and possibly assisted them to put up a new plant. This is the s~ ~mber who cast aspersion on the MDC company. He says he has no documentation on this, but they were having a problem with its bankers. He says, I have not seen the ag~nt, and he condemns it. This led, of comse, to the dlaracterization of that member as a rumourmonger. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, this is absolutely pathetic.

The ~mber has asked the question; the govennrent does not have to answer, but if they do not want to answer, they should sit down and not waste the time of this Legislature. We would prerer that they answer the question. Where is the contract? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I think I had better advise all honourable members, we have a matter - -

- December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 681 of privilege under advisement at this point in time. I have done it in the past. The only reason I allowed the honourable member to put his question was because you were being taunted by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) for a question, so when I allowed the question, we have an answer. Now, unless you have another question on a nomclated department, I will accept that question. Do you want to try another one? Crown Corporations Privatization Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandoo East): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder whether the government will be engaged in selling other companies in the same way, without giving information to the public in Manitoba, without tabling any reports? What do you have to hide? Tell the people what you are hiding. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister m Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr.

Speaker, I submit that the only reason there is some uncertainty surrounding this issue is the inaccurate information that the member for Brandon East has put out in the public and in the press, indicating items like 80 percent of their market is in eastern Canada, indicating that Brandon is not a good place to do business, which led the- Point or Order Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, you just ruled that because of the matter of privilege being taken by yourself as notice, I was not to ask questions on this particular company.

Now the honomable minister is getting up, talking about the company that he is not supposed to be talking about. So I say he has no business getting up here and making snide remarks. Mr. Speaker: Well, the member for Brandon East does have a point of order, so I caution you, sir, in your answer. ••• Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, this would apply to any questions the members might ask, and it led the Brandon Sun to conclude, while there is a need for prudence, there is some need for factual accuracy and there is no need for hysteria. Mr.

Speaker, it is very important, I think, that as a member of the Legislature, every member has a responsibility of putting accurate information out in the public. *

(1400) Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I have a gmera1 question to ask this minister and indeed to ask the government. Is it this government's position that they are selling profitable Crown corporations for purely ideological reasons? It does not matter how practical it is to maintain them in the public sector, but on principle, they are going to dispose of everything because of their ideology. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, a former minister once said that a government has no business owning certain companies, and this government looked at some opportunities, unsolicited opportunities that came forward, put out some guidelines for that, and this is a tremendous opportunity for a former Crown corporation to take advantage of some of the synergies that are involved with partnering with other companies across this country. A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. Sales Agreement Tabling Request Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader or the Second Opposition): I want to respect your caution on the issue of privilege which has been put before you, Mr. Speaker.

Nevertheless, I believe it will be within the confines of what you have said to reflect on what the minister has said, which is that he is coocemed that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) and others are putting inaccmacies on the record and are speaking about this deal in inaccurate ways .

682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 He has a way to remedy that within his own power, and aside from the issue of whether we have a right to that document, which I leave to you to decide upon, my question for this minister is, what is the reason that that contract is not being made public?-because we have a letter of rejectioo from the Freedom of Information officers. I am sure the members do. Ours is dated September 30. I understand that. I understand that in the context of the negotiations of the fall.

We now have a press release from this government heralding the conclusion of that agreement. My question for the minister: Given that the negotiatioos are over, what is his remaining reason for not allowing the release publicly to members of this Legislature of the contract that this government has signed? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister responsible for A.E. McKenzie Co.

Ltd.): I know the Leader of the Liberal Party will be consistent with the previous Leader, and I would suggest that pe:rbaps he read her comments when we had our last meeting on the annual report who wholeheartedly supported government's divesting of Crown corporations. This has been a very open process in that we submitted preconditions that helped to answer questions that came about as a result of some unsolicited bids. We will make public all that we are legally able to make public. There is some third-party confidentiality around some of the information we have.

This has been a very open process in terms of public meetings, press conferences that have taken place. The CEO of the particular Crown appeared before city council in Brandon, answered any and all questions, appeared on open-line radio shows, Jret with the chamber of commerce. This has been a very open process. We will commit to making public all that we are legally able to. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicates that the press conferences and press releases of his government should satisfy us. Well, they do not. He goes on to say that they will release all that they are legally able to release.

This request for information is now three months old Can the minister table the legal opinion he has received as to what part of the contract he can release and what he cannot, because we have received contracts in the past, particularly the Repap deal and others where parts were blanked out, and we accept that. There are certain confidences which nrust be respected Where is the contract so that we can do our job other than through press conferences and press releases from the goveiDIDCD.t? Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not accept that the member indicates part of my answer.

I also said that there has been a public meeting with the chamber of rommen:e, with the city council, open line radio shows, meetings where many people from within the comm.mity were present, including the member for Brandon Bast (Mr. Leonard Evans). I have indicated that this has been an open process. We will release all that we are legally able to release. Faneull Corporation Contract Tabling Request Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I will eagerly await the minister releasing the contract, because there is no substitute for the release of the agreement to which we are legally bound My final question, in the same vein, is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism on the Faneuil deal. A second Freedom of Information request was placed by our office. A rejection was received October 5 to any of the terms and conditions of the Faneuil deal which this government signed, a $47.2-million contract with MTS, as well as over $17 million in loan guarantees to that company. - -

- - December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 683 My final question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism is: Why can the people of this province not have access to the contract that was signed between this government and Faneuil representing close to $70 million of obligations on behalf of the taxpayers? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, first of all on the McKenzie contract and arrangements, the minister has clearly said that we are prepared to provide what we are able to do legally so it does not impact on the company which has been purchased in good faith, which we believe will continue on not only to guarantee the jobs in Brandon but a major expansion in job opportunities better off for it. As fur as the other contract the member refers to, it is the telephone corporation that in fact has that contract with the work that is being done. Any information again that is able to be provided will be provided. [interjection] Mr.

Speaker, he keeps asking questions from his chair. We will be as co-operative as possible to make sure that the public are clearly brought up to full speed as it relates to the information with the deals this government carries out. SmartHealth Contract Tabling Request Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, while line-ups grow in our health care system and while the health care system deteriorates, what does this government do?-they are entering into a hundred-million-dollar contract with the Royal Bank for computers. How do we know about it?-from a two-page press release.

Will the minister, today, categorically assure this House that they will table the contract with Royal Bank for computers prior to spending one cent of taxpayers' money on this? Hoo. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, initially the concern raised by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) had to do with the information that is important that it not be shared with the wrong people. I accept that. I want the honourable member and his Leader to understand and look back on the Drug Program Information Network which came into effect in July.

The honourable members will be aware that privacy was an issue in that regard, and we put together a committee composed of various people representing the comrmm.ity and the population. We have every intention of doing the same thing with respect to the public health information system. With regard to information that we can make available to the honourable member, just as soon as we are able to do so we will make that information available. APM Management Consultants Contract Tabling Request Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr.

Speaker, how does this government expect us to have any c:oo1i<blce in the process they are putting in place, because we requested details on the Connie Curran contract and her living expenses of $130,000 and, yes, we got back invoices, but on this contract, censored out is information as to how this $130,000 was spent. How can we have confidence in information on the $!~million contract when they will not give us information about the Connie Curran contract that is already concluded? Hoo.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): I do not think there has ever been a time when there has been more openness in the relationship between the Department of Health and the people of this province when it comes to the health system and the system that we want to build together in this province. You cannot move as far as we have without the consultation and the input that we have had from people right across this province from comer to comer.

684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 The honourable member asks how he should have any confidence. There is not a thing that I remember announcing in the last year-and there have been many very positive things that have been brought forward-there is not one time that I have heard the honourable member say that he is ronfident in what we are doing. So it is very hard for me to answer him and say, well, you are going to be confident, because that honourable member never is. •

(1410) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, we have a consistent pattern, not just in today's Question Period but throughout the entire year, of a reluctance of this government to provide information to the public. My final question: Can the minister explain why, on the details of this $130,000 in living expenses for Connie Curran, the government censored out information on this document, why they would not provide information as to how this money was spent? Why did they censor the information? Mr.

McCrae: 'Ibe honourable member refers to information he has no doubt obtained under The Freedom of Information Act and the mechanisms under that act I will take the honourable member's question as notice and contact him further with respect to details. . . Winnipeg Development Agreement Arena Funding Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the minister responsible for the Winnipeg Development Agreement. Constituents have called me voicing their concern that dollars for the inner city will be going to the arena.

I would like to ask the minister if she will guarantee that Winnipeg Development Agreement dollars will go towards long-term jobs for the people and not for a new arena. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I indicate to the member that we have had no discussions about Winnipeg Developnrnt Agreement money going towards an arena. The whole purpose of the program is to address the areas the member has identified: community development, labour force development, strategic initiatives for the city of Winnipeg. Nothing about the arena has been discussed in that agreement. Consultations Mr.

George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr . Speaker, I would like the minister to guarantee that there will be no dollars going to the arena and also, will the minister ensure comnnmity groups such as Point Douglas Residents' Association, 1\ntle Island Residents' Association, Gilbert Park Residents' Association, CEDA, Social Planning Council and other organizations are consulted and have input in prioritizing dollars spent under the Winnipeg Development Agreement? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I am very happy that the tmnber has identified certain groups that I have a special interest in and that I know he has a special interest in as well. By all means, we intend to stay in touch with those groups, make sure they have access to us to providing ideas. We already have some projects going on ·in the initial stages with certain of those groups. They have contributed ideas to this point We welcome their ideas in the future.

That area of the city will certainly be considered as part of the agreement as are other parts of the city, because we are not limited to just one geographical area this time which is good because Gilbert Park, for example, is outside the original limited geographical area. I reassure him again that we have had absolutely no discussions on an arena as part of this agreement Employment Creation Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, in my first question I was asking for a simple yes or no, that there be no money going to - -

December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 685 the arena under this agreement. It was just a yes or-no answer that I was looking for. Also, will the minister develop a partnership with business and labour to ensure long-term jobs are obtained for graduates for many training programs? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, one of the aspects ofthis agreement that we hope to see come to fruition is the ability to have partnerships with business, with labour, with nonprofit groups, community organizations, as well as the three levels of government, of course, which are the three levels putting the project together. So I can say to the member that we will make evety effort to ensure that we have that kind of input depending upon the willingness of groups to co-operate, and I reassure him again that the Winnipeg Arena debate is not part of this agreement debate. Tender Process 114 Garry Street Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, over the last number of years, we have raised numerous questions about contracts entered into by this government. I would like to ask a question to the Premier related to another contract, this to do with 114 Gany Street, a tender for 65,000 square feet of space which was awarded to Marvin Investments. I would like to ask the First Minister if, oo.ce again, as was the case with 280 Broadway, whether the government has moved away from the process of looking only at the lowest tender and why this particular contract was awarded to Marvin Investments. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, if 280 Broadway is the old Investors building, then that was the lowest tender that was accepted. So we have moved away from no principle. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, it was not the lowest the first time around. It was not the second It was not even the third lowest. The government reheld the .tenders.

My question again is in regard to 114 Garty Street and what the circumstances are and why Marvin Investments Limited of which Barty Shmkarow is a partner just happens to have been awarded this particular contract, despite the fact there were a number of other bids-there was at least one which put in a lower price-and also the fact that govemm:nt is now leaving space in Eaton Place which is at a lower rate than what they have awarded this particular contract at, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Filmon: I want to just correct the member opposite.

On 280 Broadway, as in any tender, the government always puts in a clause that says the lowest or any tender not necessarily accepted, and by retendering, we saved a million dollars for the taxpayers of Manitoba. He is opposed to that, Mr. Speaker, and that is why the New Democrats have left this province with billions of dollars of-because of their stupidity, because they believe that you ought to just throw money away. We do not believe that, and we do not accept his solution that we ought to pay a million dollars of taxpayers' money more than necessary for any property. Mr.

Ashton: We do not accept sweetheart deals and changing the process-280 Broadway, Mr. Speaker, and I am asking now for 114 Garty Street. I would like to ask the Premier, since the question was on 114 Garry Street, why the conttact was awarded to Marvin Investments. Are we not paying enough to Mr. Shenkarow through the management fees for the Winnipeg Jets, sharing the cost of the Winnipeg Jets, or is this another way of indirectly funnelling taxpayers' money to support the Winnipeg Jets deal that this government signed? Mr. Filmon: I repeat, Mr. Speaker, this member for Thompsoo. would prefer the government to pay

686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 a million dollars more in lease fees than necessary for building space. I do not accept that solution. I do not accept anything that he brings to the table because usually it is factually wrong. Immunization Nurse-Managed Program Ms. A vis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

It would appear that the Manitoba Medical Association has been hard at work trying to come up with ideas on how to save dollars in the health care system, and the formal Manitoba Medical Sezyices Council, which has been established by this govemnrnt, has representatives on it from the minister's office. One of the innovative ideas that this council should be looking at in terms of saving money in the health care system and not jeopardizing quality of care is the idea of having nurses giving innmmizations for children, not the physicians.

Will the minister ensure that this particular idea is brought forward to the Manitoba Medical Services Council and is discussed and debated fully as to the merits of the idea? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, aside from the suggestion being made, which I will pass along, I am pleased to point out to the hooourable member that earlier this year, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) announced to the annual nurses' meeting that we would be engaging with the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses in the establishment of nurse resource centtes in Manitoba. Worlc is underway in that regard.

We have been working with Dr. Helen Glass's implementation committee, and I expect in the vety near future to see some proposals, so that we can get going on that proposal, but I will pass on the member's suggestion to the Manitoba Medical Services Council. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary to the same minister. The Manitoba Nurses' Union did a survey this fall, a survey of the public, and it said that 86 percent of Manitobans felt that having nurses giving vaccinations to children was appropriate.

Will the minister not only pass that idea along, but, in fact, ensure that that particular issue gets on the next agenda at the next meeting of the Manitoba Medical Services Council? Mr. McCrae: I do not think there is any question but that Manitobans vety nmch support the appropriate use of nursing professionals in our comnnmities. You know, this is the !50th anniversary of the Grey Nuns in Manitoba. Ever since the beginning of nursing in Manitoba, nurses have been playing a role.

We talked about the Home Care program starting about 20 years ago here in Manitoba, when in reality the Grey Nuns started the Home Care program 150 years ago in our province. I think all honourable members have already joined with me in calling attention to that particular event in Manitoba's history. As I say, we intend to continue working with the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses to assme them and to assure Manitobans that we are using the skills that are there to the maximum extent possible. •

(1420) Manitoba Medical Services Council Agenda Items Ms. A vis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to the minister. Can the minister indicate to us if other organizations and groups such as MARN and the MNU are allowed to present agenda items to the Manitoba Medical Services Council?-because I get the distinct impression from my first two questions--with answers that have nothing to do with the issue-that I am not sure this minister is going to pass that on. Can he indicate today if organizations and groups involved in health care - -

- December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 687 can present agenda items to the Manitoba Medical Services Council for full debate? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, there is nothing stopping the honourable member or anyone else in Manitoba from presenting their ideas to the Manitoba Medical Services Council. There are two c<rehairs, and it can also be done through my office.

If anybody has a suggestion they want to bring to the attentioo to suggest that something go on the agenda of the Manitoba Medical Services Council, they need only get that done through the c<rehairs or through my office. As I have already said to the honourable member, I would be pleased to pass on the suggestions she has made. Forage Producers Compensation Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, last year the Manitoba Forage association, with support from Keystone Agricultural Producers, presented resolutions to the Minister of Agriculture requesting compensation for producers province-wide for losses incurred during the inclement weather in 1993. Can the minister tell this House what response these producers received from the minister and what support for their requests? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice.

I am aware that some of the leaf-cutter bees have in fact received support from the Disaster Assistance Board I have advised the remaining members, some of whom have written directly to my office, to make the appropriate claims. The issue seems to be that not all parties affected filed the necessary documents claiming support from the Disaster Assistance Board Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicates that other producers were provided compensation.

Can the minister tell this House why 40 producers to this point in the Lac du Bonnet area have received in excess of $560,000 when the proposal made by the forage association province wide was a million dollars? Why $560,000 here when a million dollars by the forage association was asked for? Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat the answer that I just gave him principally because these producers filed and filled the appropriate forms out.

I might also say, and I say this without fear of favour, that the producers were aided and provided these forms to fill out and they made their claim to the Disaster Assistance Board I am aware of the fact that not all producers of alfalfa seed have made their claims. I have asked Mr. Sid Reimer the director of the Disaster Assistance Board to reopen the file, if you like, and consider any additional claims. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr.

Speaker, just speaking to the forage association yesterday, there is no respoose from this g()VeJil11lf'Jlt whatsoever through the disaster relief fund fur any other producers in this province. There is not any. Can this minister assure that these forms and applications will be provided to all the producers such as they were to the producers in the area of the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Pramik)? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Speaker, in the well-established pattern, when the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board examines disastrous situations, whether they are flood or wind or storm, it is up to the citizens of the area to file with the Disaster Assistance Boan:l for the assistance program The issue that the honourable member from the Interlake brings up is a simple fact of the matter that a munber of alfalfa producers failed to file the necessary forms with the Disaster Assistance Board

688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 Forest Management Agreement Louisiana-Pacific Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, we often hear this government in forms of brochures and pamphlets making a strong commitment to sustainable development. We on this side of the House want to ensure that all new jobs are sustainable and in a sustainable commmity. In the Forest Management Agreement signed by the province and Louisiana-Pacific, the government agreed to an annual allowable cut of 900,000 cubic metres of hardwood in the Manitoba forest

section in western Manitoba. ~o;--ever, the province's own five-year plan mdicates there are only 578,290 cubic metres. Will the Minister of Natural Resources or the Minister ofE'nvironnrnt (Mr. Cummings) indicate what studies have been done to indicate that there actually is the additional amount of wood that is required and that the harvest we are going to have in that area will be sustainable and we will have long-term jobs- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I very ra.tely thank members when they ask a question, but in this case, I want to thank the member for asking that question. It is most appropriate because we are sending out letters to thousands of people starting as of today. I am having a press release, as well, indicating that we will be making information available to all the people throughout Manitoba, and that we will also be having open houses. We will be having all the technical information in teims of how allowable cuts get arrived at. So it is most timely that you asked the question.

I want to give the member assurances that all that information is going to be made available. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact that they are communicating because there is a concern as to how this goal will be achieved Mr. Speaker, another group of people is the independent loggers who met with the minister asking for some long-term supply of wood. I know there are 50,000 cubic metres that have been set aside, and we are assuming it is for independent loggers, but they have not heard from this minister.

Can the minister indicate clearly when these independent loggers are going to be given assurances that they will have a long-term wood supply, rather than applying for the 150 cubic metres? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I do not know when the member has last spoken to some of the permit holders, but I have asked my staff from time to time whether there has been any further concern expressed To date, after we have given the assurances to the operators that we have adequate supply for them, there has been no further concern..

This also will be dealt with at the time that we have the open houses, when we will be going out and explaining exactly what is available, for whom, to whom, the allowable cuts. Mr. Speaker, I am anticipating that we should be in a position to have .the open houses and all this information available by the end of January, and it will be ongoing from there on. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I want to let the minister know that there are people who are still asking questions.

I am in contact with them Can the minister indicate whether, at these hearings, he will be addressing the concerns that are raised by people who use the mountain for a recreational facility? This is a tremendous amount of wood that is going to be taken out of the mountain areas. Can the minister give assurances that there will still be the recreational areas around the lakes and that they will be protected? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, in the Forest Management Licence that I have signed together - -

December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 689 with Louisiana-Pacific, these issues are all addressed in there, but this information is also going to be made available. In the Forest Management Licence, we address the area of sustainable allowable cut. We address the area of wildlife. We address the area of fisheries. We address the area of recreation. All of these things are part and parcel of what is happening there. So if the member has a little bit of patience, all this information will become available. Manitoba Product Stewardship Program Board Representatives Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment The Manitoba Product Stewardship program the minister has announced will be administered by a corporation established for this purpose. Can the minister advise this House what groups or interests will be represented and when he intends to make announcement of the composition of the board? •

(1430) Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister fl Environment): Mr. Speaker, in a general sense, we will have representation from consumer organizations, from industry that is affected by the recycling regulations, by municipal governments and the Province of Manitoba. Those will be the general categories. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired ORDERS OF THE DAY Mr. Speaker: Honourable government House leader, what are your intentions, sir? Hoo. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call Bills 8, 9 and 10, please. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BillS-The Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act Mr.

Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), Bill 8, The Off Road Vehicles Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les vehicules a caract~re non routier, standing in the~ of the honourable member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I adjourned it on behalf of my colleague the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). Mr. Speaker: Okay. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Highways and Transportation explained the other day, this is a fairly innocuous piece of legislation involving four main policy proposals. I suppose the most significant one was the introduction of staggered registratim periods for off-road vehicles, hopefully commencing March 1, 1995.

This is to be implemented by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. although I am not sure how MPIC is going to do that as of March 1, 1995, unless this Legislature decides to come back relatively early in the New Year and pass the legislation, or unless there is agreement to pass it before Ouistmas at this particular sitting of the Legislature. I am not sure what the implications are of that Maybe the government might wish to comment on that at some point.

As I read it, MPI will implement a staggered registration renewal system for motor vehicles commencing March 1, 1995, and ny understanding is that they would like to do that also for other vehicles as well. I notice in reading this further that MPI is planning to introduce a staggered registration renewal system for off-road vehicles upon expiry of the current registration cycle on September 30, 1995.

690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 At any rate, in principle I do not think we should have any diffirulty with this because staggering the registration is good for the owners of the vehicles, and it certainly makes for better and more efficient operation of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. There is also reference, Mr. Speaker, to giving authority to the Registrar of Motor Vehicles to suspmd, cancel or refuse to renew off-road vehicle registrations for an owner who is indebted to the Registrar or to the MPI.

I do not know how prevalent that particular problem is, but obviously it is a big enough problem to want to try to correct it through this particular means. Another policy area relates to increasing the property damage threshold from $500 to $1,000 for all off-road accidents. They are raising the threshold up to $1,000 for off-road accidems and requiring them to be reported to the police. In other words, no longer will you have to report if it is under $1,000 damage. I suppose that is in recognition of increasing costs of such vehicles that have taken place in this province.

Fourthly, there is a reference to a change to provisions regarding certificates provided by the Registrar as evidence in court to ensure the legal admissibility of those documents. All in all, Mr. Speaker, it is fairly innocuous legislation. I do not see that we would have any difficulty supporting its passage to the committee stage. I think it is important though that it go to committee, because it is important that Manitobans have an opportunity to be heard on all legislation brought by this House. I know from time to time we do make exceptions, such as the Food Donation bill the other night.

But even at that we may have made a mistake because there may have been groups out there, poverty organizations, other social service agencies, that may have wanted to say something about that particular proposal. Likewise here, even though this looks fairly innocuous and relatively noncontroversial, nevertheless there may be some elements of it that members of the public who do own and operate off-road vehicles may have some insights to offer with regard to this particular legislation. Mr.

Speaker, having made those few remarks, as I said, I have no problem to see it passed to the committee for committee stage approval. There may be others in my caucus who may wish to speak on this bill, but with those few words I would conclude my remarks. Thank you. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak on Bill 8, The Off Road Vehicles Amendment Act, that was introduced by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay) just a short time ago. I appreciate the comments that the previous speaker, the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans), has put on the record here today with reference to this piece of legislation. I have a few areas here relating to some of the items on this legislation, as well as some of the com:ncots that the minister had made when we did second reading on this bill. Of course, the minister made reference and bas provided once again for us, and we thank him for that, the spreadsheet on this piece of legislation, which allows critics in the opposition, Mr. Speaker, the opportunity to look ftnther into the intemions of the government when they do make legislative changes.

We thank the minister for bringing forwaid this spreadsheet. His department has been very good with that in the past, and we appreciate their efforts. In the legislation, Mr. Speaker, and it bas been referenced by my colleague the member for Brandon East that the govemment intends to make four changes to The Highway Traffic Act, dealing with off-road vehicles, in registration and insurance, et cetera, and of the four areas, there is a staggered registration process that the govemmcnt is now entering into, I believe, as part of the Autopac 2000 process.

Also, there are some changes with respect to the powers and the authorities of the Registrar in dealing with off-road - -

- - December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 691 vehicles, changes in the reporting for damage claims as a result of accidents and also changes regarding certificates provided by the Registrar with respect to court actions. Mr. Speaker, of these four changes, of course, as I have indicated, two of them are with respect to needed changes for Autopac, for MPIC, in dealing with the Autopac 2000 requirements that they are hoping to bring forward this coming year, which would allow MPIC to move towards a staggered renewal process. In the last session, we had the opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, to debate a piece of legislation in this House which we thought was a good move, even though the minister indicated that it was a piece of housekeeping legislation. It allowed for changes in the mandatory registration. At that time, the minister had explained and we understood that the old practice at that time was that off-road vehicles were registered for a three-year period and that there might have been some confusion in the minds of the public in that the insurance for those vehicles was only for a one-year period.

To change that confusion, it was better, I suppose, that the registration period would be changed to coincide with the insurance period for those off road vehicles. *

(1440) So we supported that legislation at that time, even though the minister called it housekeeping at that time, as well, I believe, and now we have a registration period that is the same as the insurance period. We hoped that the confusion would be changed and that those who are operating off-road vehicles would. not only register for each year period. but would also seek out and obtain the necessary insurance for their protection and for the protection of members of the public.

I believe that this change, as well, will allow for further protection of the public by moving to ensure that the off-road vehicles are insured and registered I am sure all of us can relate from time to time to cases that may have come before us where individuals may not have registered their off-road vehicles.

Of course, this may occur at times when accidents unfortunately take place and we find, to our dismay, that there is no insurance attached and that those who are injured would not be protected So I think that we have to ensure that the Registrar has greater powers in the sense of protecting the public safety in these matters. The government is now moving towards a change for a staggered renewal process for the Autopac 2000. As the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans) has indicated, we are not sure how they are going to arrange to have this accomplished unless we are able to pass this legislation through today or tomorrow. If this House is to adjourn and we do not have the opportunity to debate this legislation until some time into the month of March and it calls for the implementation of this legislation starting in March of 1995, we are not sure how this legislation would come into being if it has not passed through this Chamber and received the approval of this House. The current registration period for the registration of off-road vehicles, Mr.

Speaker, cwrently runs from October 1 of the year to September 30 of the following year. There is now going to be an assigned renewal date that will dlange in that individuals that are going to register off-road vehicles will have that renewal date attached to a fixed period of time in which the JmeWa1 will take place and be calculated upon an individual's birth date plus four months.

We are not exactly sure whether or not it will be at the end of that four-month period that the registration has to take place, as the current licensing process calls for, but we suspect the minister will be able to provide us with some further details on that when we move into committee and have the opportunity to ask some questions on this legislation. This staggered renewal process, of course, Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, will fall into line with the vehicle registration process to which MPIC is m>Ving with their Autopac 2000 and also will tie in the off-road vehicles with that.

The question I have and I guess would be on the minds of members of the public in dealing with

692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 this legislation is that it is the government's intention and MPICs intention to put into one file all of the registrations for all of the vehicles that an individual might have registered in their name. Well, we all know, Mr. Speaker, it is a common occurrence when we move to February 28 or February 29 in a leap year when we get our Autopac bills and they come due, there is always sotre disrussion about the lliOOUiltS that we have to pay.

Now by this process, we are not only going to have to renew and pay for our vehicle registration and our insurance at that time, but we are also going to have to pay for our off-road vehicle registration fmther adding to the costs that an individual must bear at that period of time. Whether or not those costs occur at the person's birth date plus four months or at February 28 or 29 in a leap year, nevertheless there is going to be a higher cost lumped in all at the Sllire time. It is going to make it financially a bit more difficult for an individual to afford those costs. I look;ed at s~ of the comments, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister made with reference to this piece of legislation, and I am not exactly sure on the intent of his comments. He made reference to the fact, and I quote from Hansard page 620, the average cost of a snowmobile is $10,000 to $12,000. Well, I am not sure where the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay) is buying his snowmobiles, but the ones that I have looked at in this province here in costs would average in the range between $5,000 and $7,000.

So unless the minister knows of a Cadillac model that costs $10,000 or $12,000, I am not sure where he is getting his information, unless he was making reference to the fact that the $10,000 to $12,000 is an average claim cost for the MPIC in settling out accident claims that are brought to them. Perhaps the minister could explain that when we move into committee stage on this piece of legislation. 1he minister also referenced the fact the staggered renewal process and there will be a day of choice for the customers in this process in renewing their registration for off-road vehicles.

We are not exactly clear on what that means, if the individual will choose within a 30-day time frame like we do for the current licensing renewal process in the birth month, Mr. Speaker, or there is something else, some other intention that the govemment has in mind for the renewal process. 1his legislation also allows for a change in the threshold reporting of off-road vehicle accidents in that unless there is injury to an individual or to other third-party property, I believe it is, the individual-the current reporting method is $500 for just pure accident damage to that off-road vehicle.

That is going to change to $1,000, which, I believe, acconling to the figures that the minister's department has provided, indicates that the majority of off-road vehicle accident claims are for above $2,000 in value. So it should, hopefully, simplify the reporting mechanism to ensure that claims that are less than $1,000, there would be no need to report unless, of course, there is injury or third-party property damage.

This legislation also empowers the Registrar to have an increase in the powers that the Registrar currently holds with respect to the registration of off-road vehicles. 1he Registrar, we know, aa:ottling to this legislation, will have the powers to suspend, cancel or refuse to renew off-road vehicle registrations for an owner that is indebted to the Registrar by fiillure to pay for fines or to pay for any of the costs associated with the registration and/or NSF cheques that an individual may issue in paym:nt for the registration or payment process.

We think that is a fair and reasonable process to give the Registrar those powers. An individual shoo1d be responsible for any payment of debt that they would owe to the Registrar for any of the process. We also note, Mr. Speaker, in this legislation, that the Registrar is now going to be empowered to use a lithographed signature in the presentation of documents towards court evidence. This is something that I believe the Department of Highways and Transportation ran into problems with a short time ago, in that some of the documents that they had produced in court for - -

December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 693 evidence were rejected as evidence and were not allowed to take

part in those proceedings. Of course, that jeopardized the actions of the Crown in representing the interests of the department of Motor Vehicles. Now that the Registrar will not have to sign the 100 or possibly thousands of documents that would come by his desk in a day for the purposes of fulfilling the needs of that job, and the lithograph signatme of the Registrar would be acceptable for the purposes of evidence in court. There are also changes in the government's intention to introduce the vehicle inspection program. We note that there were some difficulties.

Although the government did not quite come clear on the full details of why they are delaying their Private vehicle inspection program that they were talking about last year, we think that they would have taken the necessary steps. Even though they indicated that it was moving towards the fulfilment of the Autopac 2000 provision, we think there has to be some other reasoos why there is a delay in the implementation process in that the private vehicle inspection points, from my understanding, have been sought out and have been approved.

So I am not sure why the govem••rJ 11, at this ~.has not moved in that direction, since that was their intention. Members of the House had the chance to voice their concerns, and, of course, we were opposed to it at that time. Now it appears the government seems to be delaying the implementation of that. I am not sure of the exact reasons why they would delay that implementation. There is also another change to this Bill 8, Mr.

Speaker, in that it will make changes to, I believe it is, subsection 55( 4) of The Highway Traffic Act with respect to owners or operators of off-road vdricles that may have been under the influence or may have consumed substances, Mr. Speaker. I reference the fact alcohol may play a role as the minister has made reference to in his comments, the number of accidents we see in the province of Manitoba in relation to the operation of off-road vehicles. •

(1450) The minister referenced that in 1991-92 there were 108 off-road vehicle claims with an average first-party property damage claim of $2,100 approximately. In '92-93 those claims jumped. They over doubled from 108 to 227 which is alarming in itself, but the average dollar value for those claims also increased from $2,100 to $2,300. In this past year, for which the minister has provided statistics for us, there was a slight decrease in the number of off-road vehicle accidents from 227 down to 220, but there was a fairly large jump in the average claims cost from $2,300 up to $2,700.

So the costs are rising in that area. The minister, as I already indicated, has refurmced the fact that quite often there is alcohol related to some of the accidents that occur with off-road vdllcle use, and the government has made some changes with respect to subsection 55( 4) of The Highway Traffic Act and has replaced the current legislation through this legislation with two separate sectioos relating to the immediate the immediate suspension of driving privileges for a six to 12-hour period with an individual found to have a blood alcohol content of .05 milligrams or .08 milligrams. Mr.

Speaker, there is also a provision here that is separated out from the old legislation that applies to the right of an individual to apply to the Licence Suspension Appeal Board in the event of a suspension imposed under The Off-Roads Vehicles Act. So if an individual feels aggrieved by the process, there is always that appeal mechanism.

I would hope that members of the public, when operating a motor vehicle of any type, whether it be vehicles on the highways or roads of this province or the off-road vehicles, would refrain from the consumption of any alcoholic beverages or refrain from being under the influence of any substance. These are and can be dangerous mechanical equipment, and I think we have to ensure that we operate them in a safe fashion.

694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 There have bec.-n some complaints with reference to off-road vehicles in that I saw some correspondence and some comnwnications that c:atre to my constituency office from those that are owners of Polaris snow machines and that they drew to my attention and to the attention of my colleague for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) the fact that Polaris snow machine owners are now being assessed a higher premium for the registration and insurance of their vehicles, their snow machines, higher than other snow machines that others may be operating in the public.

Now MPIC has indicated that this is a result of a higher number of thefts of Polaris snow machines. My colleague has indicated here that Polaris are good snow machines. I am sure there are many good snow machines that are available to the public. We hope that they would be designed and constructed in such a way from the manufacturers that would hopefully reduce the incidence of theft for these machines.

We hope that MPIC has played a role in notifying the manufacturer of the increased incidence of theft and that it is causing increased costs for the owners of these off-road vehicles and that it would give the manufacturers some reason to go back and to redesign their antitheft mechanisms on these off-road vehicles. We hope MPIC has played that role and has notified the manufacturers of Polaris snow machines as they would for any machine, because MPIC has obviously access to a greater number of statistics relating to these additional costs and the additional mnnber of thefts.

Therefore, I think it is only reasonable that they would have the reason to go and notify the manufacturers of these changes and these statistics. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) There are other areas, Madam Deputy Speaker, of this legislation that I will not go into at this point, and we hope that we will have the opportunity to ask the minister various questions with respect to the staggered renewal cycle, with respect to the changes to the Registrar's powers and with respect to suspension, cancellation or refusal to renew vehicle registrations.

We will have some questions with respect to provisions for the reporting thresholds, questions that we have, and also questions about some of the comments that the minister had with respect to statements that he made in this House just yesterday.

I will be the last speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, from our side of the House, I believe, on this piece of legislation, and we look forward to tmmbers of the public coming out to committee to add their conunents to the conunents of members of this House and any concerns that they might have with respect to The Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act and, of course, any other issues they might have on their minds related to the use of off-road vehicles. With those few comments, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to add my comments on Bill 8. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Call the question, Mr. Speaker, on Bill 8. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [agreed] House Business Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of House business, the House leaders have had some discussions of recent time, and I would propose, followed by appropriate request for motions, a scenario such as follows. We will consider Bills 8, 9, 10, 6, 4 and 3 up until around 4 p.m or shortly after, following which we will consider Bills 203,214, 216, 217 and 218. Mr.

Speaker, we would waive private members' hour, and we would seek leave not to see the clock at six, if required Following all of that, I propose to put the adjournment motion on the Order Paper. - -

- - December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 695 Mr. Speaker: Did you want to waive private members' hour now? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I would ask if yru would seek leave of the House to waive private members' hour. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I would seek leave to not see the clock at 6 p.m Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House that I do not see the clock at six o'clock? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Thank you, Mr Speaker. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Clair) Bill 9-The Wills Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: Second reading of Bill 9, The Wills Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les testaments). Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): The purpose of this bill was, I think, well described by the minister, and it takes me back to my period, not long ago, in law school, when we studied very intensively the provision in The Wills Act, which is relatively unique to Manitoba, which says that you need not comply with all of the fonnal requirements for making a will for the courts to recognize that indeed a will or a testamentary disposition has been made.

That particular provision, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thought at the time, and I still think, although less so, was a great contribution to the law of wills, not ooly in Canada, but in other common-law jurisdictions in the world, because what it said was that there are more important things than strict rules. The more important thing was the real intention of a person who makes a will. We recognize that this bill does not have an application to hundreds and thousands of Manitobans. Nonetheless, it can have a critical impact on cases from time to time.

I think it is important that the legal system, the justice system, allow access by people to their intentions. The legal system should not be there simply to put up barriers of formalities that really thwart the needs and intentions of individuals. We know that since the provtston under consideration was passed by this Legislature, it received an

interpretation consistent with its intention on a couple of occasions. Then I say, unfortunately, in 1990, our Court of Appeal, in the Langseth estate case, appeared to say that some compliance with the fonnal requirements was required. This was somewhat frightening to those who had seen the provision as representing a liberal and purpose of approach to the

interpretation of wills, because what that said was that at least one of the fonnal requirements required for wills set out in The .Wills Act had to be complied with, whether that be the signature or the dating or the witnesses or even the wording. *

(1500) That led, of course, to the Law Reform Commission presenting a report to the then Minister of Justice on December 14, 1992. In the Law Reform Commission report, the commission identified the difference between requiring substantial compliance with the formal requirements for wills that was exhibited in the Langseth case with what, I think, was truer to the original intentions of the provision, and that is that there be a dispensation power, in other words, the cowts be given the power to dispense with all the formal legal requirements required for making a will.

The Law Reform Commission concluded that The Wills Act shruld be amended and that the provision under consideration have the wording changed as set out in Bill No. 9. We support this amendment to The Wills Act I might add that it appears that the wording accurately sets forward the intention of

Section 23 or the provision in the act as originally drafted and as well the intention of the Law Reform Commission, which we support.

696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 With those COIIlllrllts, Madam Deputy Speaker, we look fOiwan:l to moving this bill along. Thank you. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me pleasure to speak to this Bill 9, The Wills Amendment Act. On behalf of our caucus, I would like to say that we appreciate the work of the Law Reform Commission, as always. This act addresses a Court of Appeal decision which gave a narrow

interpretation on complying with the former requirements of wills and frustrates the intentions of makers of wills. We look forward to this bill moving to committee and we hope during the committee hearing sometime in January we will hear submissions from people in regard to this matter. We look fOIWard to this bill moving on to committee in January. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is secood reading of Bill 9. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [agreed] Bill tO-The Trustee Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To cmtinue debate on second reading, Bill 10, The Trustee Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les fiduciaires). Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Deputy Speaker, the amendment proposed to The Trustee Act is not too unlike the amendment proposed to The Wills Act in that it allows for a more generous and liberal application of the laws to circumstances. I am fiuniliar with the Law Reform Commission considerations and report on the topic of what is called ethical investments. Essentially what this amendment purports to do is to allow trustees to make investments on behalf of beneficiaries that do not consider only financial criteria.

I think it is JDlCh more common today that all of us make investarnt decisions not simply based on the expected rate of retmn, but on other considerations, whether they be religious, whether they be moral, ethical, whether they be environmental, perhaps. I know myself of the offerings of green stocks on the market, and they are very successfully llllliketed and widely accepted in our conmnmity. People are making a decision.

They are saying that it is important to invest in sustainable devcl.opn:r.nt. important to invest in green ventures more so than it is to get the top dollar that I could with perhaps some other investment. It is not uncommon for investors now to recognize that I001'al decisioo. making has to be acknowledged as legitimate. We have seen, for example, investments avoided in South African businesses. That is one example that is recent.

When they want to invest in certain offerings made by conmnmity economic development initiatives or such investment vehicles as the Crocus Fund in Manitoba, it may be that the predominant reason for the investment is not merely financial, but there is a balance that is required. Oearly, when one makes a decision for oneself, there is no review, there is no accountability in law as there is for a trustee. When one is a trustee there is still a requirement that decisions be made with financial criteria being predominant.

Indeed, the only measure of prudent trusteeship, this bill says, should not be financial criteria so long as safeguards are in place against an unreasonable financial detriment occurring from the investment So the provision appears to balance that recognitioo. that noofinancial criteria have a role to play and should be legitimized. At the same time it appears to be saying that there still must be prudenoe in making the investment decision by the trustees.

We question and we will look forward to presc'lltatioos and the minister's detailed responses to this proposed provision to see if the predominant criteria is still financial. I think that is the main questioo. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, we support, in principle, the amendment to The Trustee Act and look fOIWard to the following stages of this bill. --

- - December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 697 Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me pleasure to rise and speak to Bill10, The Trustee Amendment Act, and once again our caucus appreciates the work of the Law Reform Commission. As already has been mentioned, the amendment clarifies the obligation of trustees who hold money on behalf of beneficiaries making their investment decisions for the money they hold Their first obligation is to maximize the return they make for the beneficiaries.

The amendment states that the trustees can take other than nonfinancial criteria into consideration, such as ethical consideration, environmental or other concerns about a company's activities and not be in breach of trust. In principle, we agree with this amendment I will welcome to bear submissions and the minister's ~nts in committee hearings because in the

Section 79.1 where it says, if in relation to the investment policy and investment decisions the trustee exercises judgement and care that a person of prudence, discretion and intelligence would exercise, those words are open to

interpretation. We will be anxious to hear the minister's views and the views of any submissions during that committee hearing, and we welcome this bill moving to committee so we could bear the submissions of others. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 10, The Trustee Anr.ndtrent Act Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [agreed] •

(1510) Bill6-The Northern Flood Comprehensive Implementation Agreement (Split Lake Cree), Water Power Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 6, The Northern Flood Comprehensive Implementation Act. Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe this is standing in your name. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I am sorry. Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson? [agreed] Mr.

Edwards: Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill represents obviously another step in the process of settling one of the Northern Flood Agreement claims, this one involving the Split Lake Band As many, in fact, I am sure, all in this House recognize, there has been far too long a process of settlenr.ot of these claims under this agreement for the five affected communities and First Nations. I think that it is very important, regardless for a IJ:IOilr.Dt and just leaving aside the specific details of this agreement or some of the others that are being negotiated, to reflect on the history of this.

It is, I believe, some 25 years since the damage was incurred which led to this agreement and is only now leading to some final settlement of these claims. That is, I think, a tragedy of really unspeakable proportions that this has gone on that long without reconciliation and without understanding all of the consequences of those hydro projects.

I would like to think that we and Manitoba H~ and we the 57 members of this Legislature who are representatives in this House have all learned that is not the way that hydro development should occur and can occur in the future. [interjection] Well, the member for Thompson chooses to make light. I do not.

Those members who are making light of this, I think, need to take a second look at the tragedy which all parties, I think, understand has occurred in not settling these agreements long before now so that these people, so that these nations, could go forward into a different and a better future for themselves, for their children.

698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 I think that it is incumbent upon us, upon our Crown corporation Manitoba Hydro and indeed the province of Manitoba to ensure that this type of tragedy over this period of time never occurs in the history of this province again. It has been through repeated discussions at the con:mittee stage with Mr. McCallum, with Mr.

Brennan, with the officers of Manitoba Hydro that I have sought over the years, as the critic on behalf of our party dealing with Manitoba Hydro, to question, continually question and continually ensure that Manitoba Hydro is dealing with northern development in a very different way and msuring that First Nations concerns and in fact the concerns of all residents of the North who are affected are in fact put at the front of the process, dealt with up-front, put into the planning process and made a part of it, and that it is absolutely clear that the concerns of those who are going to be most affected, who are going to pay the largest price for the power supply from which we all benefit are brought into the decision-making process right at the beginning so that they are part of the planning process, and that any of the ill effects of northern hydro development are understood completely right up-front and dealt with and mitigated wherever possible.

That is, I think, not a partisan issue. I think that is the reality, and that is what we have all learned. It is an important time, I think, to reflect on that history as we again review in this House some of the legacy of development which did not consider at the outset the full implications of what was done to communities and nations like Split Lake. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not intend here to get into the detailed discussion about that agreement, about this piece of legislation.

I simply want to put on the record here that it is time again to review the history of this province and commit ourselves again to never letting that type oflegacy happen again. We nwst learn from what has gone wrong in the past and ensure that it does not happen again. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) raised, I believe yesterday, and I share his concern and the coocem whidl has been raised in the comnwnities as to whether or not this piece of legislation and that at the federal level are seen as treaties per se, because that is not only an important legal question but an important question of principle for Fll'St Nations individuals because they believe and want to see these as having the effect of treaties.

I believe that the minister responsible responded and understood the consequences, but I was not sure--and I have reviewed the record to a certain degree from yesterday, but I was not clear as to what his answer was in terms of whether or not these are-[interjection] He is saying okay. I am sorry. He is saying now from his chair that these are agreements and therefore do not take on the legal status of treaties. That is an issue which we will want to question further. I put the minister on notice.

I do not think this is the appropriate time at debate on second reading, but in the committee we will want to have a fuller discussion of that with the minister when this does go to committee. We look forward to this going to that committee stage and I hope hearing from some of the representatives from the community who are most impacted by this agreement. I do not hear today comment on all of the pros and cons of that agreement. I know these are always controversial matters.

What I do say is that woddng towards settlement, working towards a new future is necessary and is positive and we 1Dlst c:osure that with all five of those communities proper compensation is made and we are able to see a new future with those communities and provide for them in a way-we can never completely make up for the damage that was done.

What is being sought here is to create a new future different from the past 25 years in this province for them The best thing I think we can do for all Manitobans is to ensure again that we have learned from the past 25 years and that we c:osure that that type ofhistory does not ever repeat itself in the history of this province. I can honestly say that in my discussions at the committee with Mr. Brennan and Mr. McCallum, - -

- December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 699 I have received those assurances that there is a different approach at Manitoba Hydro. I know the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) sat on the board. Perhaps he is better able than I to talk about some of the discussions which occurred at the board level about this agreement and about those five comnnmities. •

(1520) I think, nevertheless, that all senior employees at Manitoba Hydro, all members of this Legislature would agree that we now know in many respects how not to do northem development in terms of its impact on the residents and citizens and First Nations that make northern Manitoba their home, from which we draw so nmch of our resource base and our wealth in this province. Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to some further detailed discussion on the treaty issue and indeed look forward to comments to be made by I hope representatives from the Split Lake First Nation.

Perhaps others who are affected by the Northern Flood Agreement will present to that conmi.ttee. I do look forward to that. I would go so far as to say that I would look forward to that. It may be a committee hearing we could have early on in the New Year. I do not know what the position of the opposition party will be on that. I do think we need to have some further detailed discussion on the Northern Flood Agreement generally and in particular on this, the first settlement to reach this stage of the five comnnmities covered by that agreement. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Bili4-The Public Schools Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 4, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques), standing in the name of the honourable member for Inkster who has 37 minutes remaining. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Deputy Speaker, I did want to spend some time on this particular bill. Yesterday in the winding down minutes of last night's sitting I had indicated that in principle we support fwther clarification in terms of what will assist administrators in terms of ensuring that trespassers that are in our public schools or the immediate surrounding area, that we are empowering them to be able to do something with respect to it.

In listening to the debate on second reading, as the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) put forwaid, he was very concerned and he put it in the context of the overall blueprint and he asked for clarification from the Liberal Party. As he was speaking, I wrote down the points that he stressed He wanted to know, for example, whether the Liberal Party believes there should be more or less time on language, curriculum development, choice of school, number of school divisions and the teacher training or teacher certification.

Those were issues in which he felt that the Liberal Party had a responsibility in terms of stating what our position was because these were the issues in which he, as a government, was prq>ared to take and put <Xi record, Madam Deputy Speaker. Of course, we do not know what the actual government's position on those particular issues are because only some of them are in fact incorporated in the blueprint. Keeping that in mind, I did very briefly want just to comment because I know--and in fairness to the Minister of Education with respect to the blueprint, it basically covers five major points.

One is the essential learning in which we see the core curriculum, those foundation skills, and he points out the foundation skills of literacy and comnnmication, problem solving, human relations and technology. We have expressed some concerns with respect to this essential learning in terms of the history and the physical education. With respect to educational standards and evaluation, another very important aspect to the

700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 blueprint, he is now suggesting that there be standanl exams, for example, in Grade 3, Grade 6 and Grade 12. The concern that we have is that this govem1Il121t is just talking about an exam that is placed in front of the student and what is going to be the coosequmce of some students that maybe not have the same abilities but do have a vecy good understanding in terms of what is being taught.

If the minister, for example, was meeting with individuals from the Learning Disabilities associatioo or talking to other interest groups or to other teachers, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) would have found out that there is a need for additional information on exactly what this govemnrnt is saying with respect to the standards, evaluation and the purpose.

I can recall during the Estimates when we were talking about the implementation of the current cwria.dlDD, there was concern that the government was doing nothing to ensure that that curricula was in fact being implemented in the different grades. The minister made reference to school effectiveness and talks about the responsibilities and roles of the principal, school board, minister and, of course, responsibilities and rights to teachers.

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, this particular bill does address some of those, or it does deal with some action with respect to school effectiveness, and we applaud the minister oo some of the things that he is in fact doing in this whole school eflectiveness area. We do have some concerns with respect to, for example, the parent advisory council's role, let us say, in the potential having influence to hire principals or fire, release teachers. There needs to be a lot of explanation in terms of what it is the government is actually trying to say.

Again, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that all stakeholders will indicate that, you know, the more you empower the parents to get involved from the commtmity and in fact the parents of the children that attend the school that the quality of education will, of course, improve. With respect to parental and commmity involvement, the fourth tier, if you like, on this blueprint commented with respect to the advisory councils. There is some concern in terms of the make-up of the advisory council.

There is concern in terms of who is actually going to be able to vote at annual meetings for the selection of these advisory councils. Again, the concept is a vety positive one. With respect to Distance Education and technology, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that there is an acceptance from all three political panics inside the Ownber that there is a need for us to expand with Distance :Education, to do what we can in terms of reaching out into the homes and schools of our young people.

This is a wonderful opportunity, and we would like to see the government possibly enter into, whether it is a pilot project, to test this out in a more significant way. We have seen some school divisions that have taken very solid steps in dealing with this particular issue. I initially indicated that there were five, there are actually six, keys.

The sixth one, of course, being that of teacher education, and really the only commitment or discussion that has been brought forward with the blueprint, with reference to that, is in fact that there are talks about review and refOIDl of the whole teacher education issue. Madam Deputy Speaker, one would like to think that there would have been a lot more, given the time that this government has been in power, to deal with that issue. It is a major issue, and all the govenmrnt is committing to do is to review and to reform.

At the same time, we have seen in terms of what they have done with the PD days, s~ which we would argue was a bad move. 1be minister, as I said, wanted to know in terms of-because he did not want us to deal with this partirular bill with just the idea of the trespassers, he wanted us to deal with it in terms of the overall blueprint. He asked outside of the blueprint for positions on, for example, the number of school divisions.

It is interesting when he made that remaik, Madam Deputy Speaker-just recently he was given the report from the former Mayor Norrie's commission, which indicated, no doubt, recommendations on what the province should be doing with the school divisions. By the sounds of the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness), he had - -

- December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 701 virtually accepted what Norrie's recommendations are, and we wait to see just how quickly this government is going to be acting on those rec()DliDC':lldations. We would anticipate that we will see this some tim! in the month of January.

I had indicated and had made presentation, and I know the Leader of the New Democratic Party had taken exception to the fact that I made presentation on behalf of the Liberal caucus to Norrie's commission. but in essence, Madam Deputy Speaker, what we had talked about was a question of equity, both at the divisiooallevel in tenm of taxation to services and the whole idea that if you have community-based school divisions, then they should be community based school divisions throughout the province, not just in certain sectors. •

(1530) Now, the minister also asked questions with respect to the choice of school, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a very serious concem that Manitobans have with respect to this particular issue. I think the Minister of Education himself, even though he asks for us to take a position, has not takm any sort of position on this issue. Other than to allude that he would like to see the choice of schools be givm to the parents, he has not given any indication on how that choice would actually be decided.

He also made reference, as I indicated last night, when I was givm a couple of minutes to be able to comment, he quoted from a 1902 Grade 1 textbook, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think the Minister of Education should acknowledge the difference between 1902 and 1994 and the different demands that are on the curriculum and different amount of times allocated in any given day for a student to be able to learn to read or write, and to acknowledge the difference in terms of the students.

H the minister, for example, is trying to say that that is the way that we need to go, back to 1902, what we would see would be a continual falling through the cracks of many individuals that today attend our public school system Yet we do not see any alternative coming from this government That causes a great deal of concern, Madam Deputy Speaker, if not likely the greatest concern that I have, the government's direction in terms of trying, in an attempt to indicate to the public of Manitoba that our education system is falling apart, thereby we need to raise standards and force kids to go through them.

What is going to happen is we are going to see students falling out of the public school system, and the government is not providing any alternative, is quite prepared to write off these students. I find that to be somewhat sad and irresponsible. So when the Minister of Education takes a textbook, this 1902 textbook, and he talks about the Grade 1, I think that he has the responsibility to ensure that it is put into a proper perspective, and I do not believe that he has done that.

The most recent literacy report that he himself released I believe last Friday indicates that Manitobans are on average, across Canada, in fact doing quite well in this area. So, of course, when he makes reference to the 1902 textbook he is saying, the standards across the country, not just in the province of Manitoba. I know, Madam Deputy Speaker, my preference is to see Bill 4 and Bill 3, both education bills, pass to the committee stage. I see that there is some very positive benefit if we were to adjourn today, that the government would have the opportunity to be able to call committee.

We have requested that all bills that pass be called in committee sometime in the month of January to provide individuals the opportunity to be able to express the concerns that they have. There are many educators, administrators, parents and individuals that would like to express their thoughts on the whole blueprint proposal and the specific legislation that the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) has brought forward.

This provides us the wonderful opportunity to do just that, to pass them, and that is the reason why I was wanting to speak to Bill 3 yesterday and now Bill 4 today so that in fact we would have the opportunity to see them go into committee. Madam Deputy Speaker, I did want to address some of the remarks also that were put on the record from the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) yesterday as I sat and listened to

702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 20, 1994 him talk about the whole private school funding issue. I uoderstand that there is a lot of stress that is no doubt going on within the New Democratic caucus in terms of their feeling that they are losing the issue of education and they are desperately trying to discredit the Liberal Party on the private school issue.

I recall about a year and a half ago, I was with the Seven Oaks Teachers Association and indicated to them that just recently I was appointed the Education critic for the party and in the discussions that I had with the Leader of the Liberal Party that we were prepared to be able to look at all of the different policies of the past of the Liberal Party. Mr. Edwants, the Leader of the Liberal Party had indicated that this is an issue in which he himself would be open to see change.

I met with literally, you know, dozens of organizations and individuals and had workshops and discussions in which we talked about this partiwlar issue and at the last Seven Oaks teachers invitation I had indicated to them that the Liberal Party's position on the private schools was to have an absolute freeze. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that the New Democratic Party who was in attendance, contrary to not seeing the government showing up at panels of this nature, at least they were there and they had indicated that it is good to see that the Liberals have come onside.

Last night inside the Ownber we saw the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) try to say that, you know, the Liberals are wishy washy, and Madam Deputy Speaker, you could be no further from the truth. If a political party acknowledges that there is a problem in a certain area and then takes a corrective action to show and den:olstrate to Manitobans that we want to ensure that the public education system is our No. 1 priority, we are going to do whatever is possible to ensure that the public is well aware of that. We had taken a very responsible approach to the whole issue of financing of education.

I recall at one time the New Democrat Party's position was also to freeze private school funding, and then it was at a Seven Oaks School Division meeting in which the aitic then, who is from Dauphin-! am not too sure if he is the critic now-indicated that they wanted to have it rolled back to 50 percent financing of private schools. Is that the equivalent of a flip-flop or are they being wishy-washy? If one wanted to, Madam Deputy Speaker-you know, I take an exception to a number of things that the Leader of the New Democratic Party was saying.

He attempts to imply that the New Democrats do not support private schools in the province of Manitoba. I think that the Leader tt the New Democratic Party should be aware that the greatest increases to private schools was when he was in the cabinet I had received, you know, graphs in which we have seen 38.2 percent increases, 19 percent, 17 percent, 19.6 percent increase, 17.9 pc:rcent increase, 38.2. These are all NDP administration- Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): On a small base. Mr. Lamooreux: Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, the member for Thompson says on a small base.

What the blueprint does not necessarily address is the whole financing of education, and when he says, well, it was based on a small percentage. When the government was receiving relatively large increases in government revenues, we have seen very small increases to the Department of Education of financing of public education. This is not son:dling that just this government could be blamed in terms of inadequately funding education. This is something that has been going on since 1982 where we have not necessarily seen governrrrnt demJnstrating that public education is in fact a priority. •

(1540) So when I look at the blueprint, I would have expected to see something with respect to the financing of education. I believe that whether you talk to the superintendents, whether you talk to the teachers, the trustees, the parents, all of the stakeholders that you will find that there is some disappointment that this government was not prepared to deal with the issue of financing. -

December 20, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 703 Members from across the way ask if we would increase the financing. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, again the Liberal Party has taken a position on the financing of education contrary to what the New Democrats and the Conservative govemment has done. In fact, I would refer you again to go back to the '83, '84 budgets and go right through, you will see that there has been a continual reliance on property tax in order to finance public education. This is a more of a regressive tax than coming from general revenues. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Kevin wants it to come from general revenues. Mr. Lamoureux: Well, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) who believes that we should fight for tax fairness, I do not understand how they can justify downloading or having a more regressive tax picking up a larger share of the financing of education. I do not understand how New Democrats can be as hypocritical as doing that, which really says a lot in terms of their principles on trying to get fairer taxation, but the Liberal Party will stop the drift.

We are committed to ensuring that the further reliance on the property tax will stop under a Liberal administration, and depending on revenues that come in to the government will determine what it is we will be able to do with the financing of education. Madam Deputy Speaker, the reason why I say that is again to point out that under NDP administrations when they had the high revenues coming in, they did not do anything really for the public education in the province of Manitoba.

We have seen a government now which has frozen, which has cut back on public education, and they try to draw the equation that these cutbacks will not have any impact on the quality of education. I do not know where they are coming from because we have seen what has actually happened in the real world by legislation that has been brought in by this government that, for example, has seen professional days cut. In many different school divisions it has been cut entirely.

In some school divisions that have higher reserves they have been able to compensate, which talks again about inequities and how some resources are not necessarily as straightforward as the government would like us to believe. With respect to the bill, as I indicated, we do want to see this bill pass into the committee stage. We believe that it would be very fruitful for all of us to see both public education bills pass.

So again, like Bill 3, I will be the only speaker from the Liberal caucus on this bill and would highly recon:mr.od that all JllClDbers of this OJ.amber pass it into the committee stage, and I would highly recon:mr.od that the minister or the Premier ensure that we are in committee sometime in the month of January so that the public and the stakeholders will have input on a very important bill. I can assure all members of this House that that input is needed and I believe would be well warranted so that when we do come back in session we are prepared to deal with it in a very. quick fashion.

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Ashton: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are prepared to see this bill through to committee. In fact, there are a number of bills that have been passed through to committee already and we are hopeful as well that committees will be called in the intersessional period. I want to say just briefly that while I found the Liberal education aitic's speech to be entertaining, it just amazes me that the Liberals are now saying they are going to go around and-shall I quote another Liberal who said, zap, you are frozen.

They are doing this now with private schools because they led the upping of the ante. They wanted 80 percent, and so now they have some increase in the private schools. If they think they can fool anyone with that hollow promise, I think they are absolutely dead wrong. Quite frankly, I was surprised that this i

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	94b976631bdc8aa0c12ee1a89986fc35c21da8f9

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