March

29, 2000

RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Joyce, MHA Bay of

Islands, substitutes for Mr. Barrett, MHA Bellevue, and Tom Rideout, MHA

Lewisporte, substitutes for Mr. French, MHA Conception Bay South.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

The first item of business is we have the minutes of

our previous meeting, a meeting to discuss the Estimates of the Department of

Fisheries and Aquaculture. We need a motion to accept the minutes as circulated.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Before introducing the minister, I will ask

the members of the Committee to introduce themselves, starting with our friend

to the far right, Thomas.

MR. LUSH: Tom Lush, MHA Terra Nova.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Ralph Wiseman, MHA Topsail.

MR. RIDEOUT: Tom Rideout, MHA Lewisporte.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA Windsor-Springdale.

CHAIR: Bob Mercer, MHA Humber East.

I am sure you know the procedure that we will follow.

Just before we do Eddie Joyce, Member for Bay of Islands, is sitting in this

evening replacing...?

MR. JOYCE: Percy Barrett.

CHAIR: Percy.

MR. JOYCE: As usual.

CHAIR: The process that we will follow this

evening is we will ask the minister to open the deliberations with opening

comments. We will then ask the Vice-Chairman, which for the purposes of this

evening will be Mr. Hunter, to respond and then we will ask other members of the

Committee to ask questions alternating back and forth until all the questions

have been exhausted or the members themselves have become exhausted, whichever

comes first.

The way in which we will do the Estimates, which was

agreed upon in yesterday's meeting, is that we will do all of the discussion and

debate under heading 1.1.01, which will allow the members free range to ask any

questions that they wish when it becomes their turn. That is the process we will

follow, so if the Clerk would call the first head.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, welcome to the Committee. I

ask you, if you would, to introduce your officials and to remind your officials

that when they speak into the mike that they clearly state their name for the

purposes for the gentleman standing up here being ever present and doing the

recording for Hansard.

Mr. Minister.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is a pleasure to be here. It is always one of my

pleasures to be here at the Estimates Committee to face the questions of such

intelligent members of the House of Assembly. I always look forward to the task.

I hope that you had a good supper, whoever was attending that supper. I couldn't

get there myself, I had a soccer game to go to. There are certain things that

come ahead in life and that is where I was.

I want to thank you for the opportunity. Len Clarke is

right behind me here, he is the Director in our Financial Operations, or looks

at finances for us; Dr. Mohammed Nazir, to my left, is the Assistant Deputy

Minister of Forestry and Wildlife; Martin Howlett, further to the left, is our

Assistant Deputy Minister of Agrifoods; and Bob Smart is the Deputy Minister of

the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

I just want to take a minute for a quick opening

statement. This department is a department that is really everywhere in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a department that, I believe, is taking on more

value on a continuous basis in the rural economy. There are a lot of challenges

with the management of these natural resources that we are dealing with, but

there is also a lot of very good opportunity starting to come out of it. In the

forest sector we have seen some major advances by the sawmill sector, where a

lot of new technology has been added and we are getting a better value, and more

value, in the forest sector.

The paper companies themselves are investing a lot of

money. This year it will be about $45 million between the three paper mills of

capital investment, which is a high amount of money, but with that also, as I

said, the sawmill sector has been growing. We also, on the Island, have a

deficit in our wood supply which is a challenge for us to overcome. We are

looking there at the possibility of a de-inking operation, we are evaluating

with the companies the economics and feasibility of a de-inking operation which

would certainly help us on the Island portion of the Province for the long-term.

That sector, while it has challenges, is a big

opportunity and it is a big employer in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We face

challenges with making sure the land base that we have is protected, making sure

that, at the same time, with the wildlife resource that we have, that we are

also ensuring the protection of our wildlife resource while we carry on the

other activities.

On the agrifoods side, I believe right now is probably

one of the most exciting times that we have had in agrifoods development. We

have more proposals now to our department than I have ever seen since I have

been there in two-and-a-half years. These are a wide variety and a diversified

group of proposals, different types of agrifood development, nutraceutical

development that is just starting to take off, different sectors that are

organizing themselves, that are putting game plans in place. This really bodes

well for the future in the short term and long term because these sectors are

organized and they are coming forward. They are not just asking in a

disorganized way, they are asking in an organized way for some resources and we

see some very decent opportunity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador arising out

of diversification. There is a whole different range of sectors that are

starting to move in that area.

On the overall, the other

section of this department

which doesn't get talked about too much is inland fisheries. The department has

the responsibility for inland fisheries, the licensing aspects of our rivers,

and that resource is a tremendous resource for our Province. We have the largest

number of Atlantic salmon rivers in North America:160 to 170 rivers scheduled.

It is a great resource and we are looking at ways to get more opportunity for

our people with that resource, in a tourism way. The tourism industry there is a

very great possibility with those resources, but again they have to be taken

care of.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to be here. I am going

to leave it at that and entertain any thoughts or questions on any issues. I

look forward to it.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ray, if you could ask your questions and then we will

go on to Tom Lush.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Minister,

department heads, and Estimates Committee.

Mr. Minister, I believe that Newfoundland and Labrador

today has a big challenge ahead of us with respect to forestry especially. With

sustainable forest management requirements now, it is difficult to balance

between who harvests what resource we have. I believe that the resource we have

today is certainly being profitable with respect to the paper companies. It

seems like they are having quite a big investment, increased production and

increased profits over the past couple of years, and I believe this department

has to be really responsible to make sure that this continues.

Having said that, Mr. Minister, I am very concerned

about the small sawmill operators in Central Newfoundland. I get a lot of calls

from individuals who are very worried over their livelihoods being taken away

communities and close to their operations.

I do not know if the minister has any plans to address

the local sawmill operators in Central Newfoundland, but I do hear a lot from

them and they are having quite a bit of trouble getting suitable answers from

your department. I am wondering if you have plans in the near future to address

some of the concerns about these operators on their wood supply, particularly

one Baxter Butt in Springdale and Beothuck Logging in Triton, which operates on

the Trans-Canada, just outside South Brook there. They have been calling me,

concerned that their operations are being jeopardized. In rural Newfoundland

today we have to try to sustain employment for the smaller communities, so could

you bring me up to speed on what is being done for the small sawmill operators,

particularly in Central Newfoundland?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your question. We are working on a

strategy to get a long-term plan in place that allows sawmill operators who are

serious about staying in business and want to stay in business, and who want to

advance.... We are looking at ways now and we have identified, really, a

strategy to do this, where we can get some longer-term commitments from, for

example, the limits that Kruger has and Abitibi has - that the long-term

commitments be given to sawmill operators. That has been the goal, I think, of

the department for a long time. A number of those arrangements have evolved and

have worked out for a fairly large number of sawmill operators, but some are

having a struggle because they seem to have trouble in negotiating with those

companies.

Our Crown land operations overall, for the most part,

are in fairly good shape in the sense that whatever we have in Crown land we try

to push through sawmills; but the challenge is, there is a deficit there. In

some areas we have had a reduction in the AAC, the Annual Allowable Cut, so it

is a challenge to ensure that they can have an appropriate wood supply.

We have been looking at each case. A number of them we

have worked out in the last year. As a matter of fact, I think on Abitibi lands

it is fair to say that they have been fairly cooperative and that a number of

the major sawmills are straightened away in a sense of their security, they feel

much better. Their production levels have been very strong, they have been

investing in their plants. As you have indicated, there are two of those and one

in particular which we have checked on, and I was checking on it again today. We

will have some more information on that for you tomorrow. Mr. Butt in Beothic is

another one that has been ongoing.

The future for this industry and for those sawmillers

is going to be a challenge, but we are dealing with the two major forest

companies. What we are saying to them is that it makes much better sense to have

as much wood go through these sawmills as possible, but we are also saying to

the sawmills that the way they have been doing things needs to change also, for

a better utilization of wood. It has been a two-pronged approach.

We are looking at a strategy now which could be a lot

more aggressive in the next six months, it could be fairly aggressive in the

next six months, in working out longer term arrangements. In some areas the AAC

is a challenge because it may have been reduced and I think that is the case

there, where we are talking about. Every effort is being made to get a wood

supply that they can count on for the longer term. In certain situations there

will be times when we are going to have to all sit down and try to figure out a

solution to it. That is the approach we have been taking to it.

Any comments on that deputy, or anyone? No one? Okay.

MR. HUNTER: One particular sawmill operator

brought to my attention that some of the larger sawmill operators, or the

integrated operators, were being favoured over him, particularly in one area

that he had been trying to get wood for a long period of time. Wood wasn't

allowed to be cut, but all of a sudden now this other operator is in cutting

that wood. He has questioned the reason why he couldn't cut it when he was told

that he wasn't allowed to cut it because the department didn't want it cut at

the time. Now another operator is in cutting it. That might be something that

you might have to look at for that operator.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, I was just reading over

the Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance program for farmers. It says here

that Newfoundland and Labrador received $2.35 million annually out of a $1

billion fund set up by the federal government for the safety net, which was

split $665 million for basic Safety Nets, and $435 million for Agriculture

Income Disaster Assistance program. I am wondering: What is Newfoundland and

Labrador's position with respect to percentage of production in Canada? This

amount of $2.35 million, what percentage is that compared to the percentage of

production? It seems like a small amount of money with respect to $1.1 billion.

Is this money going to be Newfoundland's only allocation of funds from that

amount?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thanks very much for the question,

Ray.

I will give a comment on it and then I will ask Marty

Howlett or the deputy to comment on this. When you look at the Canadian scale of

agriculture we show up like a small blip, I believe, compared to Alberta,

Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and even Nova Scotia. I think in Newfoundland and

Labrador we probably have 900 to 1,000 farm units. They may have nine times that

in Nova Scotia. The way that formula is calculated, a lot of it is on - there is

crop insurance involved there, protection for farms when they get into some

disasters, as the West is going through right now. It is based on an average

income level over the last three years. These are all calculated out. They

measure up where each of the sectors in each province are and the contributions

they make and a formula is devised.

Would you comment on that, Mr. Assistant Deputy?

MR. HOWLETT: Thank you very much, minister.

The Safety Net (inaudible), I guess, for Canada is

broken into two envelopes. One is called an AIDA program which is the $415

million you talk about, and with that one the money follows the hurt. In

Saskatchewan and Manitoba, for instance, this year where they had a real problem

in grains, that is where most of the money would go. The $665 million is in what

we call the Safety Nets envelope number one. That is where our $2.35 million

comes from. Before the recent allocation, Newfoundland's piece was $1.2 million,

so we have increased our allocation from $1.2 million to $2.35 million. That is

the biggest increase in the country to any province out of the new allocation.

That roughs out to almost a 100 per cent increase. A lot of the other provinces

probably would range anywhere from maybe a 15 per cent, 20 per cent to 25 per

cent increase.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Further to that, we will put so

much matching dollars in there. I think it is around 30 per cent. This year we

will have close to $4 million to allocate for the development of agrifoods in

the Province which is more than we have had in a long time for this type of

agreement. Nova Scotia may have received $5 million to $8 million out of this

whole thing, but their industry is bigger. Our industry is growing but we use

these monies in a very flexible way, and these are grant dollars mostly, I

believe, where we can allocate to different sectors. We have had very good take

up on this. The increase in funds this year is very welcome and it is going to

help us out there this year do a lot more in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It

is a good program and if we had more the better, but this year we will have more

to allocate which is very positive.

MR. HUNTER: I also recognize the fact that the

silviculture program has been increased by a couple of million this year plus

there is probably more interest amongst the paper mill operators to get involved

in silviculture this year. That is certainly a big plus this year, Mr. Minister,

and I am happy to see that.

I am not quite so happy to see, when we get into the

Estimates on the tree nurseries, that it has been pretty laid back for the last

few years. Is there going to be any point in time in the near future where we

will see a lot more activity being added besides what your increase for this

year? Is there going to be more activity at the nursery, particularly the one in

the Bishop's Falls area?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Hunter, thanks very much for

the question.

We have been looking at the tree nursery, looking for

ways to expand, actually to diversify that effort there. As a matter of fact,

our cranberry development is now going on there. If you have not had a chance to

go through there in the last few months, I would encourage anybody who is

traveling towards Grand Falls to go and have a look. How much do we have? Over a

million vines growing - ?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: - a great production of the

cranberry vines that we are developing for the industry this coming year.

We have taken that facility not just now for

silviculture, for growing seedlings, but we are now diversified into cranberry

development and there may be some applications further for that facility. It

could be nutriceutical. There a number of things we could do there yet, so the

department has been very inventive.

Does anybody have any further comments on that?

CHAIR: Dr. Nazir.

DR. NAZIR: The minister has already mentioned the

cranberry production for the tree nursery. We are producing about 7 million

trees and about 1 million cranberry vines. In addition, we are investigating now

diversification into faster growing native as well as exotic species in

Newfoundland.

There is a program being developed. We are doing it

locally, as well as participating at the national level. We are looking at more

faster growing species such as scotch pine, our own white spruce, some of our

own vines which are growing very well. They have been tested in Newfoundland, so

we are diversifying. If we get more funding, either through federal or

provincial sources, we are positioning ourselves in such a way that in the

future we will be able to respond to those increased requirements for tree

planting. The nursery is beginning to grow some of those additional species, but

at a small scale at this time. We are designing the program in such a way that

the program can be expanded very quickly.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are also looking at having

discussions with the federal department of forestry. There is some interest by

the federal government now in getting back potentially into some funding

arrangement, back into forestry again, which all of the provinces would like to

see them do. We are going to see what happens this year, but we are going to be

having a discussion in the next few months with the federal government. If we

can get some more funding from them, then certainly it would be a big help.

This whole idea of looking at faster growing

plantations and different types of trees, I think, is an excellent idea. We are

hoping that can take - we are going to make some decisions on that in the next

year. If that if the case, it would be long term. It would be for the future,

but if we can cut the time lines on tree growth for ten, fifteen, or twenty

years then it would be a big help.

Of course, I am speaking here and trying to be as

knowledgeable as I can, knowing that the Chairman of the Committee here is a

very knowledgeable person. He is pretty quite tonight, but he is very

knowledgeable in forestry so I might have to ask him a question later on myself.

Thank you.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, do you have any plans in

the near future to go with a bog reclamation program? Because that is probably

where cranberries have to be grown, in boggy areas. Are there any plans for

doing that this year? I know last year there were some grants made available to

people to open up certain areas and I do not know if that happened. Did it

happen in the past year? If not, is it planned to go this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Could you repeat that again? Is it

log reclamation?

MR. HUNTER: Bog.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Oh, bog. I thought you said log.

Bog reclamation, yes. I will ask the Assistant Deputy Minister, Martin Howlett,

to answer that.

CHAIR: Mr. Howlett.

MR. HOWLETT: To answer the question, yes, we are

continuing to develop peatlands. Last year there was a concentration on

development for cranberry production. We developed four pilot projects of

roughly five acres apiece in four different areas of the Province. There were

twenty acres. We have continued doing some work for private operators who are

operating in sods and vegetables. We have been cleaning some ditches and

expanding some of their acreage.

This year we do have plans to do some more work on

cranberries. We are going to have, I think, two new pilot projects and there

will be a small expansion on two the existing ones, mainly for vine production,

so we can get geared up so that when the private industry - and we have some

demand now - when the demand increases for vines, we will have a resource for

material.

The other area, I guess, will be the private

individuals and peat on farms. We also have some requests for some peat work on

some of our community pastures. That is basically, in a nutshell, the plan for

peat development for this year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Further to that, the peatland

resource that we have has excellent potential for agriculture. We are now going

at it very hard. We have met with a number of companies, one of them McCain in

particular, in New Brunswick, and they were very interested when they saw the

peatland acreage that we have on the West Coast and Central Newfoundland. They

were very interested in what we are going to do in the future as to cranberry

development, because we have probably some of the best acreage on the Eastern

Seaboard. In the development of a cranberry industry you can cut your costs by

probably 50 per cent if you have the good peatland that we have, so we have a

strategic advantage. We have five or six private companies in the Province that

have some farming backgrounds, that have put forward proposals which we have

accepted, that are going to see this industry in the next three or four years -

in two or three years we are going to have an actual industry start up, and one

that is going to be right in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It can be very

positive for the long term. Once those operations start - fifty years, the vines

are?

WITNESS: Fifty to 100.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Fifty to 100. It is annually.

Those vines - the first three or four years are to grow and then, once they

start, you get your first crop. It is on an annual basis, the same vine, for

fifty years. It is a great industry. It could become a great industry in this

Province, we think.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, one concern that I do have,

particularly lately, since a lot of people are putting a push on the firearm

registration, do you anticipate any problems with enforcement and problems with

a higher level of poaching because of people not wanting to register firearms

and probably not applying for a big game licence so they probably will do - the

poaching will increase? Do you anticipate any problems in the near future

because of this firearm registration? Are you addressing that, or are you

thinking about it? Are there any plans for your department to investigate to see

if poaching is on the increase and the reason why? Is this firearm registration

a part of that reason? Have you any plans for dealing with that problem?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question, Mr.

Hunter.

That is a federal policy that has been brought in. We

have the wildlife populations that we take care of, and our enforcement division

takes its efforts seriously. Last year there were 1,600 violations reported for

which charges were laid or warnings were issued. We have been more aggressive

about it but, on that issue, that is a federal issue. A lot of people have a lot

of different views on that issue about the federal gun law. We will have to see

what occurs in the coming year. I think it is January of next year that it comes

into effect? Yes.

Any comments, Dr. Nazir? I don't know if you have a

comment on if we are expecting to have problems with enforcement on that issue.

MR. HUNTER: I see in the Estimates here, you

increased your budget by $450,000 for enforcement. I don't know if that was in

anticipation of any problems or not.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Again, thank you for the question.

No, we are looking there to do more wildlife

management work, plus a more aggressive approach on the helicopter hunting

issue. We want to get at that a little more on the enforcement side. Some of

those monies we use for that, plus doing more evaluations of our big game at

least.

DR. NAZIR: As the minister has said, the federal

legislation deals with registration of the firearms and (inaudible) regulations

there, but our mandate is more enforcement of wildlife and forestry regulations.

In terms of our role in delivering the federal regulation, there is an agreement

between the Department of Justice, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

and the federal government. Under that agreement, our department has been asked

to be the field agent in terms of some aspects of the federal regulation, and

that is related to the training aspects. We have a training program. We have

combined the two training programs, the firearms safety side as well as the

hunter safety side. That is where we come into the picture, and we are paid for

our services which we render to the delivery of the federal requirements under

the legislation.

In terms of what impact the federal legislation will

have on the hunters or any violations, in all of the hunting communities, there

is a certain apprehension that all these hurdles, all these additional

requirements, may discourage some people to own firearms and therefore may

impact on the number of participating hunters. So our concern is from that point

of view, not from a violations point of view, because those violations would

happen regardless of whether the gun is registered or not. We do not know at

this time what the impact will be.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, do you plan in the

coming year or in this Budget to do more in-depth research study on the pine

marten? Are there any plans of getting a greater amount of research on the

habitat of the pine marten? Some people are crying out that a handful of pine

marten are taking up too much of the forest, and loggers are telling these

people: The pine marten live in new growth areas too. I understand we must

protect the pine marten. I am not speaking against that. I am just wondering if

there are any plans to do a greater research study on that aspect, and is there

something to be done in the near future?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question, Ray, I

appreciate it. In the 1930s the pine marten on the Island portion of

Newfoundland was declared endangered - it goes back that far - it was declared a

species that we had to be very careful with. A lot of work has been done. As a

matter of fact, we are very proud of the work that has been done. A number of

studies have been done, and we have had a full-time staff on this evaluation

around the Province. Even in the harvesting plans of the forest that we do now,

we take care to look at all these issues up front instead of worrying about it

later.

We just declared a pine marten reserve on the West

Coast, which is now in the process, for the next number of months, going through

public scrutiny. We have a fairly large area that was negotiated with all the

different line departments and the public. Our Chairman here tonight was very

much involved in that process and we thank him for that effort.

A lot of work has been done, and it has been done

within the environment of the fact that we are in a tight wood supply situation.

It has been tough to do. People think that you should just go ahead and do it,

and some people advocate for that - protect the pine marten and take fifty,

sixty or one hundred square miles of forest area - but you also have other

challenges that you face. The government, together with the agencies and

together with the public, in particular on the West Coast, for example, has been

able to put forward a proposal to protect and, at the same time, to have other

activities occur. That is the goal. Even outside of the reserve, in the Main

River area, we did some work with the pine marten there, Dr. Nazir. We have done

some studies and our wildlife officials have worked with the paper company there

to work that out, to have a protection plan in place. Even without having a

reserve, we can still have protection plans in place for the pine marten.

We are very proud of the record. We have had one of

the best records across the country. Our wildlife division is one of the top

wildlife divisions in North America, and its level of staffing is well

qualified. We have a qualified staff and they have done a great job. Probably

not with enough resources, but with the resources they have they have done a

great job.

MR. SMART: Perhaps I could add something? On your

specific point of the impact of pine marten study areas on logging, either for

sawmilling or paper making purposes, we do have a study underway in conjunction

with Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, which is in fact a study that is focusing on

logging in a pine marten area to determine what impact that logging could have

to test the hypothesis that you can in fact log in these areas and not have a

significant impact on a pine marten population.

There is an area being logged that has pine marten and

there is another control area that is not being logged. You can check your

population of pine marten before the logging starts, check it again afterwards,

and then compare it to the area that wasn't logged at all to see, at least as a

start, in fact what impact the logging does have. That particular point that you

raised is, in fact, the subject of a study right now on the West Coast.

MR. HUNTER: It will be continued, ongoing?

MR. SMART: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: There is another subject, Mr.

Minister, that might be a little touchy to a point, and I hesitate to get into

it because I am not quite sure -

MR. K. AYLWARD: Come on with it, boy.

MR. HUNTER: I understand there are ten chicken

producers on the West Coast who are left high and dry, quotas gone, investments

gone, and they don't know where to turn; all of them, or most of them, will

probably end up losing everything they have within the next short period of

time. I wonder if the minister has any plans to look into that situation and see

what can be done in any sort of way for these farmers. Are there any plans?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I was going to say thank you for

the question, but on second thought I am not sure. I am only kidding, I

appreciate it.

We have communicated with the farmers who are former

IPL owners. We have communicated in writing to them the position of the

government, but at the same time we believe that a lot has been done for them

thus far. The farm credit debt, which is the federal Farm Credit Corporation,

has written off approximately $4.2 million of personal debt of the shareholders,

which is the twenty. That is about eleven to twelve families, I believe, Marty?

It is about probably ten families over all because it is husband and wife

mostly, quota holders, shareholders. That is probably ten to twelve families out

of twenty. Four point two million dollars has been written off of farm credit

debt which didn't have to be done when we were in this process that we are in.

We were pushing for it to be done from our end to the federal government. We had

been pushing for it for the last seven months to ten months in the different

processes that we were in. It was pre-IPL debt also. It wasn't debt that they

took on. They had it before they went into IPL. That is the significant effort.

The next question we are wrestling with then as a

government is what is the responsibility that we have. We have offered to help

with the transition, in the sense of the programs that are generically available

with HRD Canada and Human Resources and Employment for workforce transition, and

we are also taking application under the AIDA program to see whether or not they

might qualify, which is a generic program again. A few of them are asking for

direct contribution, a direct kind of compensation. We believe that they also

took the risk like we did as government. Nobody likes to see anybody be in

financial difficulty. I am the last person, I am sure everybody else in

government is, but my question is: How far do we have to take the

responsibility? Right now, that company is now a new company that has taken

over, it is really moving ahead. We are very excited about the new ownership and

the new investment that is going into the facilities. We are hopeful that

eventually things may work out for the farmers on the West Coast.

The East Coast has been able to negotiate. The growers

have been able to negotiate a new growing arrangement with the ACA, but the West

Coast is still problematic. We are looking at different ways to try to do it,

but direct compensation is a question that we have given an answer to. We don't

feel we have that responsibility, but there are other things that we might be

able to do. We have offered to do that and we are working with them to do that.

That is where we sit.

MR. HUNTER: Those are all the questions I have

until we get into the Estimates.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I want to thank you also on behalf

of your - Fabian Manning and the Opposition there - for the little chick I got

today. I do appreciate that.

WITNESS: What?

MR. K. AYLWARD: See my little chick there? I got a

little chick today from the Opposition. I appreciate this. It helped stir my

spirits today. I do appreciate that. Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Mr. Lush, and then we will go to Mr.

Rideout.

MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I only have two simple questions, one for forestry and

one for agriculture. I have a short

preamble first and a short closing comment

after the two questions. The

preamble is this. We often hear people talk about

the great resource potential that we have in this Province, that we ought to be

filthy rich, that we ought not to be in the present economic malaise that we are

in, that it is just that we have squandered and mismanaged our opportunities. I

just want to apply that to our forestry resource. What, really, is our

potential? Where are we in terms of meeting our needs with respect to our three

big operations, three mills, Stephenville, Corner Brook and Grand Falls, and

then the many commercial operations that we have, plus supplying the domestic

need? Because I am sure that is still there. Where are we in that regard?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate the question, Mr.

Lush. It is a very interesting question you have just asked. We really have a

resource that we are taking full advantage of in this Province. We are getting a

lot of economic value for it, big time economic value in seventy-five to eighty

communities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a demand of 2.4 million

cubic meters and we are able to supply on this Island, excluding Labrador,

around 2 million. So we are operating right now with a 2 million cubic meter

annual allowable cut and we have a demand from the three paper mills plus the

sawmill industry and the domestic cut of about 2.4 million. Then you ask the

question: Where does the other 400,000 come from that we are short? That comes

from being brought in from Labrador - some of it off the Coast, some of it out

of Goose Bay - it comes from Nova Scotia, it comes from Quebec. We have been

bringing in chips from Quebec in the past couple of years to the Stephenville

mill and we are value adding somebody else's resource on the Island of

Newfoundland. That is what we have been doing to make up the difference.

There is a way to solve the deficit. We are looking at

a de-inking potential operation. We are pushing the industry to evaluate and to

look at building a de-ink operation within the Island, and if they were to do

that that 400,000 cubic meter difference could be made up by a de-inking

operation. Then we may be able to free up also some more wood for the sawmill

industry on the Island which is what one of our goals is to do. We are also

working very hard right now to get the Coast of Labrador - we have a proposal

call out. The proposals are in for the Coast in the Cartwright and Port Hope

Simpson areas, and we expect to be able to make decisions shortly on those

areas. For the first time there is going to be significant employment and

development in both those communities in forestry. With the new road going in we

are going to see some access to a good wood supply. The chips can come out of

there and go into the Stephenville mill, potentially. That is one of the things

that we are looking at.

That resource is really developed. There are almost

15,000 people working if you look at the whole forest sector. It is a big

industry, fully developed. The three paper mills are all in excellent -

environmental records have been cleaned up. Millions of dollars have been spent

in the last five years in each of those mills. They are value adding their wood

supply and now our sawmill industry is value adding even further that wood

supply, but we have a deficit. If we can get a de-ink operation potential that

would really help us for the long-term, and getting Goose Bay online. Besides

the Coast of Labrador, we are also working now with the Innu. We are talking

with the Innu about Goose Bay and I am hopeful that we will be able to get

something to move there in the next couple of years, maybe in the next year or

so. There is a big wood supply up there that is over-mature timber in Goose Bay.

We have to start dealing with the wood supply there. A lot of jobs can be

created right in the Goose Bay region that can really help the Goose Bay area,

all of the people in that region. On the Island we have a very mature industry.

People ask: Have we reached our potential? We have

reached our potential in the sense that we are using the resource that is

available. Can we do it and utilize it better? That is what we are looking at

now. We are trying to utilize it better to squeeze out every bit of economic

benefit we can get.

MR. LUSH: What are we doing in terms of insuring

sustainable yields? What are we doing to insure that future generations will be

engaged in the forest industry? Are we satisfied with that initiative, with that

effort?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Again, thank you for the question.

In the last twenty years, the silviculture effort has

been a very dedicated effort with a lot of funds put forward by the industry and

by the governments of the day. That has been to secure the wood supply in the

future. The reason we say we have a deficit is that we could allow more wood to

be cut if we wanted to meet the demand but we would not be sure that we could

count on that wood supply for the future and that is why we do not allow it to

be cut.

The 2 million cubic metres that we say we are allowed

to cut on the Island is what our officials, our professional foresters and our

science people deem as an allowable cut that we can sustain for the future. So

it is evaluated and that is sustainable right now. So, 2 million cubic metres is

sustainable for the future. The silviculture work that we have done in the last

twenty years that is going to start kicking in in another fifteen to twenty

years will see our forests allow us to do more harvesting. Our annual allowable

cut will be able to be increased because our silviculture work and all this

investment for this long term will start kicking in. In the short term we have a

deficit on the Island, but in the long-term we will be able to expand harvesting

capability if we keep doing what we are doing with the silviculture work.

MR. SMART: Perhaps if I could just add a piece to

what the minister said. The process of determining how much wood we will allow

to be cut, the annual allowable cut, is a very comprehensive detailed process

that takes about two years to complete. We will set a new AAC level for the next

five years. We will set that new level in April 2001. The process of determining

what that level should be started eight months ago so it is a very concentrated

effort. It takes a lot of resources, a lot of consultations with the science

community and so on. It is very detailed and that is how the level gets set.

One of the things that does not get considered and

does not get factored into how much wood should we cut is this: we do not factor

in how much wood does the industry want. We have a concern when there a deficit,

but we do not take into consideration in establishing our AAC how much wood does

Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, Abitibi and the sawmill industry want. That is not

a consideration. How much can we cut on a sustainable basis? We will establish

that level. If that means that the current fibre deficit for sawmills or paper

companies goes up or down, well, that is one of the outcomes of it. We are

driven by exactly your point, sustainability and being able to keep this going

forever as opposed to cutting a lot of wood to maximize economic gain in the

next twenty years and then having to pay the price for the following twenty

years.

MR. LUSH: I grew up in a logging community.

Nothing else but. There were two people unemployed, or not involved in the

logging business. One was a furrier and he was a deaf mute. The other person

said he was sick. He died, so we all thought he must have been sick. We did not

think that at certain points. I just make the point that I grew up in that

situation. There were six sawmills in the community six miles long, and within

2,000 feet of me where I grew up there were two saw mills. Every morning I was

awakened by a tractor and whatever else motorized the sawmill.

There is almost literally today, because of the

involvement in the logging industry, a forced culture shock, if you will. I am

just wondering whether or not we have sufficient education programs around to

inform our people of the necessity of protecting our forests and respecting our

forests. We have to start with the young people. I will say this: in the

community where I grew up, I know that a lot of people do not respect the

forests the way they should. I believe many of the small sawmill operators and

the small-time logging operations do not understand what we are trying to do,

and do not understand the significance of having a well-managed forest.

I just wonder to what extent - we are engaged in

educational programs, I think, for example, again in Glovertown and Gambo, in

that area, where we have forestry offices - and whether or not some of our

people should not be involved in going to the schools if we do not have it in

the program. I can see, if I were a teacher there, using these people, utilizing

the forestry people, to come in and lecture to the high school students and the

other students, to inculcate into them the necessity of caring and managing our

forests, because that is where it has to start. I just wonder what kind of an

effort we are putting on educationally, if you will, to ensure or to help us

achieve the goals that we are trying to achieve.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Again, thank you for the question,

Mr. Lush. It is a good question.

There is a lot of work being done. We are redeveloping

a new Web site for the Internet - forestry and wildlife - and we are going to

have a very lively Web site that people can access from schools, at home and so

on, because that is one way to really make that information available to

everybody in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Our officials are in the field. We are very much

emphasizing that they get into the schools, and a number of them are doing it.

We are also going to be coming this summer with an education awareness program,

amongst a number of lists of other initiatives, that we are calling Forest

Renewal 2000. We are looking at a program of interagency initiatives, working

with the federal departments on this, where we will do some advertising about

the forest industry, talking about how the wood supply helps our economy, how we

need to take care of our wildlife resources and so on. We are looking at a very

aggressive kind of campaign, I suppose, to just talk about the resource and how

we need to take better care of it and what it is doing for us already and so on.

We will be doing that over the summer. We are also going to have a conference in

Grand Falls-Windsor that is being hosted by the council, our department and the

industry, to discuss forestry of the future, and we will extending invitations

to all members of the House. We have also talked to the industry, the major

paper companies, and we have told them that we want them to help us put out the

message about what this resource is and how it does contribute to the economy.

Dr. Nazir?

DR. NAZIR: In addition to the problems the

minister has mentioned, the department is also involved in two or three special

initiatives. One is junior forest wardens, in which we support the young people.

There are clubs throughout the Province that participate in them, get involved

in the outdoor activities. They get education and environmental aspects in

forestry, and the need for protection is inculcated in them and they become our

ambassadors. That is one program. It is a volunteer program but we do support

financially and with some technical support.

Another program we have is called EDUFOR. That means

we train the teachers in terms of what type of forestry education they can offer

in the school system. They would have some chapters in the curricula which are

on forestry and we help the teachers deliver those. We support them financially

and have annual meetings with them, the science teachers which delivered those

programs.

In addition to that, we are involved in a non-profit

organization called Newfoundland Forestry Protection Association. We

participate, along with the two pulp and paper companies, the Canadian Forestry

Services, and Newfoundland & Labrador Lumber Producers Association, through

funding as well as staff contribution. That organization also runs programs

which are aimed at public education for forest protection. In fact, they are

considering expanding that program into a more broad-based type of educational

programs.

We encourage all our staff, as the minister has

indicated, to go and visit the schools, and the schools have open communications

with them. They are invited to the school system, to go and make presentations

(inaudible). We can always do more, but these are some of the things we are

doing.

Thank you.

MR. LUSH: Now I just want to pursue the one on

agriculture a little bit. Again, the question is much the same as the one that I

asked about forestry. What is our potential, agriculturally? I am thinking about

the growing of veggies, the traditional staple root crops. I am just wondering

where we are in comparison to eight or ten years ago? Are we decreasing in

production? Are we increasing? Are we standing still? Is the government

encouraging people to get into agriculture, or do we take the view that there is

no economic endeavour worth pursuing in that particular area?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you again for the question,

Mr. Lush.

Actually, agrifoods in the round table that we had -

we had a sectoral round table over in Gander I believe it was. I think it was in

Gander, Bob, was it? Yes. We had a sectoral round table just a few weeks back, a

couple of months ago, and we also - with the rural discussions that were held on

jobs and growth by the government and also the rural committee of the Cabinet

that was traveling the last couple of years, agrifoods is one of the major

recommendations and one of the major areas of interest of the different zonal

boards out there. We are very excited about it. There is reason to pursue,

aggressively, agricultural opportunities; but what we are saying to the

different groups that are interested out there is, if you would get organized we

will help you. We will help you get organized, but you have to get organized.

If you look at the dairy industry, it has a tremendous

success story in this Province when you have such a large geography to overcome

to make it economical. We are now 100 per cent self-sufficient and going up

continuously. Our production is going up by over a million litres again this

year. We have about forty-eight, forty-nine, or fifty farms in the Province and

they are all good, technically. We have some great farmers out there in the

dairy industry. Where we were fifteen years ago, we were not self-sufficient;

now we are. We are self-sufficient in eggs, in egg production in the Province,

when we were not so many years ago. Now we are.

Our vegetable production can go up. There are three or

four areas of the Province that we would call agricultural areas, that we are

working on right now to try to get them to get organized. The Codroy Valley,

everybody talks about the Codroy Valley. Well, I am working on that one

personally, along with our officials, to reinvigorate people in the Valley to

look at getting back into farming and getting the land freed up

We are working in your area there. We are working in

Central Newfoundland, Bishop's Falls. We have a new vegetable storage facility,

Central Vegetable Co-op, which now can offer their vegetables year round to the

Sobey's and the Dominions of the world. We have agreements with Sobey's and

Dominion that they will enter into contracts with our vegetable farmers if they

can get the right product, grown the right way. They will give them a guaranteed

contract at a certain price. They are ready to do that. The market is ready. The

market can take it, for example, in vegetables.

The sectors that are really - for example, cranberry

development. The reason we are looking at that is because the price is high.

Once a person invests in it, they have a long-term future because they can get a

good price for the product. If you are going to do vegetables and potatoes you

compete with P.E.I. We are going to encourage people to get into vegetable

production, but they may want to diversify besides potatoes because they have a

big competitor. They have to be able to make a living at it. We are saying: Look

at how you can make a living at this, and we are going to help you do it.

There are a lot of very good opportunities there. In

the nutriceutical sector, we have tremendous opportunities here that have been

identified. MUN Botanical Gardens is working us now, with the industry, to look

at plant production that can be exported out of the Province. The St. John's

Wart production that we are looking at, the trials we have been doing, are

excellent. You look at Markland Cottage Winery. If you have not been out to

Markland Cottage Winery - and we have two other wineries in the Province now -

if you have not been to that one, I encourage everybody to go. It is a

tremendous experience to go there and see what is going on, and to see the high

valued-added product that we are getting.

In short, there are very decent opportunities. We have

more applications than we have funding for, but now we have even more funding

this year. We have a lot of young people looking at farming in Newfoundland and

Labrador for their first time. We have more graduates coming out of the Nova

Scotia Agricultural College than P.E.I. has over there. We have about forty to

fifty students at the Nova Scotia Agricultural College. A lot of them are coming

back and going into farm units, and they are going into Central Diaries. Look at

Brookfield Diaries. Tremendous success stories in processing facilities. Now our

chicken industry is getting straightened out, and that I think is going to be

stable for the future. There are a lot of good opportunities, and a lot of young

people are starting to look at it.

How is that, Mr. ADM or Mr. Deputy? Is that all right

or what? It is exciting, actually.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Lush.

We will go to Mr. Rideout and then to Mr. Joyce.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have two or three areas I would like to briefly

explore with the minister and his officials. Before I do, I would like to take

the opportunity to thank the minister and a couple of his officials in

particular who were very instrumental in helping us solve what would have been a

grave injustice to a certain couple of operators in the district that I

represent. When anybody takes the initiative as the minister and some of his

officials did to make sure that that wrong was corrected, I want them to know

publicly that I appreciate it on behalf of those constituents. It was only the

minister and the minister's office could do it. I am delighted they were

proactive enough and saw the right that ought to be corrected enough to do it. I

want to thank both you and the officials who were involved in that process with

us and tell you that it is greatly appreciated by me and by them.

Having said that, there are just two or three areas I

would like to ask a couple of questions in. I noticed in the cranberry business

there were some indication that there are four projects ongoing and two new

starting this year. Could the minister tell us where the present projects are

ongoing and where the new ones are anticipated to be started up?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I will let the ADM give you some

more details on that. In Bay St. George region I think there are two sites.

There is one in the Marystown area and one in the Terra Nova area, I think it

is, in the Bonavista North and Central area. I will get Marty Howlett to go it

in more detail.

We had an independent consultant come from outside the

Province about three-and-one-half years ago who identified sites around the

Province, and gave us a written report that said: If you are going to develop

the industry here, you concentrate on these areas. That is the kind of

groundwork that was laid, that is the plan that is in place. By going into

different geographical areas of the Province we are also looking at weather

patterns and seeing how the vines are going to respond. There are six altogether

now and we can provide more details. They were all through proposal calls.

Marty, would you like to add anything to that?

MR. HOWLETT: As the minister said, we had a

private consultant come in and look at a number of areas in the Province, a

number of peat sites. He looked at, I think it was, somewhere around twenty-six

sites. There are three components that are very important when you are looking

at cranberry production. One is an ample supply of water, a second is a good

supply of good quality sand, and the last is a good peat site.

When you go in to develop a site you have to have it

as level as a table. That way it allows for flooding, for harvest, for frost

control and so forth. The initial four sites were Frenchman's Cove on the Burin

Peninsula, Terra Nova, Highway 490 and Deadman's Bay. We have looked at some

other additional sites this year. There is another area in Terra Nova, there is

one in Grant's Pit, there are a couple of more on the West Coast, and they, as

we speak, are being assessed by our officials. We have had this consultant look

at them and give us some recommendations on the suitability. There are two we

are going to do a small expansion on. They are Terra Nova and possibly Deadman's

Bay, and that is for volume production specifically. Because the volumes that we

have produced - at the tree nursery we brought in 20,000 plants from tissue

cultures. We propagated them to in excess of 1 million vines last year with over

800,000 being planted in the field. This is the first winter for them being

overwinter. Things are looking good with them. I visited a couple of sites in

the last month or so. If you went and looked at one of the sites - Terra Nova is

a good one to look at - you would think you were looking at five or six hockey

rinks in a row where they are flooded and a perfectly level ice (inaudible).

That is what we are looking at this year. What we have

been doing is trying to follow the consultant's recommendations almost to a T,

because if you do not have those three components you are going to run into

additional costs and so forth. He tells us, I guess, and a lot of people, for

instance, how it is in B.C. when you visit some of the sites out there. They

tell us that we have a real advantage with our peat. As you know, we have in

excess of a million acres which has pieces thirty acres and larger and they say

you should have about thirty acres for a viable operation. The plants, as the

minister said earlier, will last anywhere with good management - because

basically what you are into here is water management - with good management your

plants will produce anywhere from fifty to a hundred years.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thanks for that information. Could

you tell me whether or not the consultant ever looked at the Horwood bogs and

the Horwood-Stoneville area?

MR. HOWLETT: I could not tell you exactly, no.

Because we looked at twenty-six (inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: We can get it for you.

MR. RIDEOUT: Could you (inaudible)?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Absolutely.

MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) and whatever the result

of the look might have been.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We can have him go look if he

hasn't but he probably did, actually. He might have.

MR. RIDEOUT: I have reason to believe it might

have been looked at so if you could get the information for me at some point, I

would appreciate it.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) think he did (inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible). We will have it for

you.

MR. RIDEOUT: The post-TAGS $81 million program,

minister, that was finally signed up several months ago, we talked about that in

Estimates last year, if I recall correctly. The tenor of my comments at that

time was to try to encourage you and your department to, not exclusively, but

certainly to try to steer some of that funding into new agricultural initiatives

in different parts of the Province. Of course, speaking as the representative

for the District of Lewisporte, I am principally talking about Comfort

Cove-Newstead, but there are precious few areas of this Province where there is

extremely good agricultural potential and that is one of them.

I do believe that we need to be able to take funding

and put it into areas of sustained economic ability, like agriculture. My

understanding is that we are still only scratching the surface in producing

traditional root crops: potatoes, cabbage, turnip, that kind of thing. I think

the market is unlimited, as I am told. We cannot produce enough yet on this day

in the year 2000 in this Province to even meet our own needs. So in terms of

creating economic activity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, in the few good

agricultural areas that we do have, what better way to create sustained economic

development? I think one of the ways to do it is to take as much of that funding

as you can fight, scratch and get your hands on and put it into agricultural

development in areas of the Province where agriculture has a chance.

Perhaps it is more of a comment than a question, but

can you enlighten the Committee on whether you have had some success in that

regard, and what we might be able to look forward to in this fiscal year in

terms of that and, in particular, enhancing agriculture infrastructure in the

Comfort Cove-Newstead area?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate your comments and

they are absolutely accurate. We are looking at areas where, for example - we

say dairy and egg production, where they were maxed out we are doing well,

everything is stable. The chicken industry can expand now but she is going okay,

the processing is there. The vegetable side is competitive but now we have an

agreement with the markets. Markets will buy. Now we are talking to the areas

that are already into it, that have the land base, that can do it, and we are

saying to them: What do you need to expand?

For example, with the new Safety Nets agreement which

needs to be finalized through Cabinet, we pretty well will double the amount of

money that we have this year: last year compared to this year, coming up this

year. This is grant funds that we can give to a farmer who may want to expand a

vegetable storage facility, for example. We put $150,000 in the last two years

into the Bishop's Falls facility, and they want to aggressively expand that

further. We are looking at those areas you are speaking about and, particularly

in your area, if you want us to come out and have a look or to talk to them

about how they want to expand a little further, we will have more resources.

The fur industry, for example, which is in rural

Newfoundland areas - is it fox farms?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. K. AYLWARD: For our fox farms we have a

strategy. We went through post-TAGS and we received about $750,000 or $800,000

out of that agreement just recently. That is now helping to expand and develop

those farms, and a feed kitchen facility was put in place on the Bay d'Espoir

highway.

If you haven't been to one of these fox farms these

are something else. It is challenging for them but they are really coming

together. That is an industry we have some money for from that agreement. We

received again hundreds of thousands of dollars just about three or four months

ago for cranberry development. We have proposals in now I would estimate for

probably $4 million to $5 million for a variety of initiatives which are all

agricultural based and they are all with organized plans - here is where it goes

- and dedicated to sectors that we think - not that think, we know - that the

private sector will take and run with it, and they want to take it and run with

it.

It is being aggressively pursued. For example, there

is an IAS committee now for agrifoods generally, but there are three or four IAS

committees working on different sectors with HRD. HRD money is flowing into

these projects, we are leveraging that up. We have also, just recently, had a

discussion with the Farm Credit Corporation, and we said to them: We want you in

the Province to expand your investment into these sectors that we are

identifying. We want them on board. We have met with the CEO from Regina and we

are saying: You come with us and we are going to do an MOU and they are going to

agree to invest money, to set up loan programs for cranberries and for other

sectors that want to expand. It is coming together.

MR. RIDEOUT: Good, and thanks for the answer,

because I think it is one of the areas that you can have real sustained economic

growth in rural Newfoundland and take some of the pressure off of traditional

industries like fishery and forestry where it has gone down -

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is right.

MR. RIDEOUT: - in certain parts of the Province

because of a lack of a resource base and so on. You can really turn, I think,

the attention in certain areas where the proper conditions exist.

I just want to switch gears totally. I have one other

question that I want to bring to the minister's attention. In the big game

license renewal applications that came out this year there was, I believe, a big

yellow sticker or flyer in the middle of the book, telling people that if they

didn't have a firearms acquisition certificate, I believe, or a gun registration

by a certain date you could not buy ammunition in this Province.

I would like to ask the minister, what is the legal

basis for that position? My understanding is that people had completed hunter

capability courses and were issued hunter capability certificates. I can't

understand that it would be - I can't see that it would be the federal

government intruding on the provincial right to regulate business and so on,

that would be the legal basis for it. Could the minister explain this? I have

had it raised with me a number of times, particularly out around the district,

and I have not been able to get a satisfactory answer to it yet, to be honest

with you.

MR. K. AYLWARD: On the buying of ammunition, we

put that in at the request of the federal department responsible. The buying of

ammunition, Bob, do you want to comment on that?

MR. SMART: We don't take ownership of the firearm

regulations, or the certification and so on. What we were requested to do -

given that we do send out big game hunting applications to a very large segment

of the population who are presumably gun owners, we were requested to include,

in the document we were sending out, this brochure. We did it as a courtesy to

get that information out, but we don't have jurisdiction over or responsibility

to interpret it. We simply pass the information along through our channels.

MR. RIDEOUT: Nor, I assume, is it something that

the Province would be looking at from an enforcement perspective?

MR. SMART: No, we have no responsibility for

enforcement of those rules either.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is right. We do not enforce

it. We enforce wildlife regulations and so on.

MR. RIDEOUT: As a courtesy to your federal

cousins.

MR. K. AYLWARD: As a courtesy, and if I had known

what flack I was going to get from some of the boys around the Province, I can

guarantee you that I would have reconsidered that one. I guarantee you.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you.

Those are my questions.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Sir.

Go ahead, Dr. Nazir.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce, and then we will go to the

Wiseman.

MR. JOYCE: No questions.

CHAIR: No questions?

MR. JOYCE: Only on some of the Estimates. When we

get into the Estimates I will have a couple of questions.

CHAIR: Alright.

WITNESS: There are a couple of questions that I

would like to ask.

MR. RIDEOUT: You can ask them as you go through

(inaudible).

WITNESS: As we go through, yes.

CHAIR: What we have done in the past is, we have

called the heads from 1.l.01. to the end. If you want to ask some questions on

the specifics of the details, now would be the time to do it.

WITNESS: Let me not interrupt the present flow of

the Committee.

MR. HUNTER: There was some question in my mind

with 2.2.02., Fire Suppression And Communication, page 129. I would like to know

if the minister, in his estimates for the coming year, allowed the same increase

in temporary firefighters as last year. From my understanding it increased from

$50 a day to $75 a day. Will that same increase apply this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: So in the Estimates here there is not

a real big increase in the amount from budgeted last year to what you have

budgeted this year. I was wondering if it was allowed in the estimate for this

year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, it is. Basically, depending

again, it is an estimate as to what we are forecasting, but if we have another

hard season like we had last year then our budget will be over and we will have

to - I think the $75 rate is fixed?

DR. NAZIR: The casual firefighters rate which you

just mentioned, they get hired for fires which are extraordinary. If our people

who are our regular staff as seasonal firefighters can respond and put out a

fire, they will do that,;but if we need additional people then we have the

casuals and their rate comes into affect. Our budget is designed to carry our

seasonal firefighters, not the casual firefighters. Casual firefighters are

added when there are extraordinary fires, larger fires for which we need

additional help, and for that we always go looking for additional money though

special warrants because we cannot forecast fires.

There are two ways of budgeting for forest fires. One

is, you anticipate your abnormalities and budget it. The other way is, you

budget the minimum ongoing budget and then look for additional money if the

extraordinary fires come. Our (inaudible) is the latter one, where we budget

whatever is the ongoing activity and look for extraordinary funds. If we do get

a lot of fires and end up hiring additional people, money has to come through

special warrants.

MR. HUNTER: Out of the Salaries, 2.2.02.01., on

the same page, for last year it was $2,840,200. Is that the salaries for -

DR. NAZIR: For seasonal firefighters.

MR. HUNTER: For seasonal firefighters?

DR. NAZIR: Yes, mostly for seasonal firefighters.

MR. HUNTER: Does that include the temporary ones

that you hire on, like social services people too? Does that money come out of

that?

DR. NAZIR: No, we do not hire any social services

people (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Last year, I know, some of the people

called me complaining about the $50 daily fee they were getting. They were all

social services people.

DR. NAZIR: When we call for people, we do not make

any distinction between social services, whosoever is available.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Right.

MR. HUNTER: Yes, but the ones that came forward

were a lot of social services people.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Sure.

DR. NAZIR: That would be fine.

MR. HUNTER: They did not want to work for $50 a

day because they were only allowed to make $150 a month. Working fifteen and

sixteen hours a day, they were complaining about it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Also the fact that there was not

adequate transportation there to get to and fro, because a lot of the people did

not have their own transportation.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: So was there anything budgeted in this

year's budget for transportation and meals on emergency fires?

DR. NAZIR: We did not have any problem getting the

number of people we wanted, but at the same time the rate now seems to be

acceptable to the people. We try to make an effort to provide the meals when

they are at a fire, but technically they are supposed to provide their own; but

we do provide.

MR. HUNTER: I think the biggest problem was the

$50 a day. When it went to $75 there were quite happy.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, they were, and we talked to

them directly about that.

MR. HUNTER: So that is going to be in place again

this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, the minister increased it 50

per cent.

MR. HUNTER: You don't want them starting fires to

get paid.

There was another question on page 137, under 4.3.03.

There were no Salaries revised for 1999/2000. It is left out there, as well as

Employee Benefits. Does that mean there were no employees for last year - or

employee, I guess. That was for the Farm Business Management Initiative. There

wasn't anybody hired for that position?

MR. HOWLETT: That is quite right. What we do is,

we allocate in that money one salary. Where the agreement was late being agreed

to and signed, that was not done; so the same salary, as you see, is there for

this year, as we have an agreement signed with the federal government. That is a

cost-shared agreement, farm management.

MR. HUNTER: So there will be someone hired this

year for that program?

MR. HOWLETT: There will be one salary, depending

on the projects and so forth. What we do in a lot of these cases, we make a

notional allocation and then it depends on the project approved.

MR. HUNTER: I guess the same would go for page

138, Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance. You budgeted $300,000 last year and

there was nothing drawn down in the year for Grants and Subsidies. Was that

program not initiated?

MR. HOWLETT: That is again a federal-provincial

program. What the federal government agreed to do with us, they did our

administration of the program for us because of administrative costs, I guess

ours being one of the smaller ones in the country. What they did was, they paid

up front for us and we will pick it up this year. Our last year's piece will be

picked up this year. There was some money spent but the federal government spent

it, I guess, front-end loaded for us, because it was easier to administer. So we

will pay two shares this year.

MR. HUNTER: We don't mind the feds spending their

money first. We don't spend (inaudible).

MR. HOWLETT: That is a good negotiation.

MR. HUNTER: That is pretty well all I have to ask

questions on.

MR. RIDEOUT: Head 4.1.01., Soil And Land

Management. Is there an allocation to help farmers clear new land? If it is,

would it be in this particular area where you would find it?

MR. HOWLETT: No, there is no allocation in there.

That is just our soils people. The only area that we have now that we could get

some money for land clearing would be possibly in some of the safety nets

allocation. That would only be for non-supply managed commodities.

MR. RIDEOUT: Would you mind explaining that to me?

MR. HOWLETT: Okay. The safety nets allocation that

you see on page 137 -

MR. K. AYLWARD: Supply managed commodities are

like eggs through a marketing board, dairy through a marketing board. Anything

through a marketing board is supply managed - not a chicken, for example;

non-supply, like vegetables, that type of thing. Vegetables could-

MR. RIDEOUT: That is what I am interested in.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, you want explained the land

and vegetables, that you can come through that agreement. We have done that

through the safety nets agreement. That is where we use funding for that.

MR. RIDEOUT: There is funding available for

opening up new land and clearing new land and that kind of stuff?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, in your facility you might

want to put some further storage (inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: Is there a dollar amount per acre

now? How does your formula work?

MR. HOWLETT: I think in the last program, which is

now expired, it was $1,000 per acre up to 75 per cent of the cost. I think that

is the way it worked. That way the farmer contributes his share in cash or in

coin, whatever makes it up.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We had, let's say, in the last

three years, 300 farm units were able to get grants of anywhere from $5,000 up

to $25,000, $30,000, or $40,000. A lot of them are taking advantage of it and

trying to do things they need to do.

MR. RIDEOUT: Opening up a few new acres each year,

I suppose?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, a few new acres each year.

MR. RIDEOUT: Good. Thanks for the information.

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Any further questions?

MR. JOYCE: I would like to make a comment, Mr.

Chairman.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Out our way, in the Corner Brook area,

you never notice things until there is a problem. You never know how much it

affected the whole West Coast when Kruger was on strike. As we all know, over

the last number of years Kruger has modernized a lot of their machinery. Every

time there is a machine modernized there is a lot more added pressure on the

wood supply. On behalf of the people of the Bay of Islands I would like to

commend the department for their ability to stay ahead of the demand on the wood

for the West Coast of the area because if the mill in Corner Brook happens to

fail it is going to be a disaster for the West Coast.

Along with a few officials - the minister, Bob, Marty

and Mo - there are a few people who I have been dealing with in the Bay of

Islands, and I would like to thank all you guys for all your help to help all

those people. I thank you very much on their behalf. It has been a pleasure

working with you guys on their behalf.

Thank you.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We appreciate it.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Are there any further questions from any member of the

Committee?

There being no further questions I call for a motion

approve the heads 1.1.01 to 4.6.01.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.6.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, gentlemen.

The next meeting of the Resource Estimates Committee

is tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. in the Committee room. We will be looking at the

Estimates for the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology. Until tomorrow

evening then.

Mr. Minister, to you and your staff, thank you very

much for your courteous attention to all of our questions this evening and for

the forthright manner in which you replied.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and

congratulations on your appointment, sir. (Inaudible) aware of that. I told John

Efford that in my next speech on this department I would be saying that this

department, when you put together agrifoods and forestry, has a bigger GDP than

the fishery of the Province. Of course, he really liked me when I said that.

Thank you very much for your time tonight folks, and

thanks to the staff of the House of Assembly.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The Committee adjourned.