Manitoba Hansard — 12 March 1981 (Sitting 36A, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-36a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 12 March, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Rec eiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports By Standing and Special Comm ittees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report for 1980 of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: At this time I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery on my left where we have 21 students of Grade 6 standing from Chancellor School, under the direction of Mrs. Pickett. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. On behalf of all the hono urable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, to the Min ister of Economic Development: We are aware of the fact that a possible helicopter plant in Gimli has always been very close to the Min ister's heart, because it was the Minister that gave such a helicopter plant extensive coverage, Mr. Speaker.

Then I ask the Minister this question: Due to the fact that the company has announced that it had arranged $40 million in private financing and all that it awaited was cle aranc e from FIRA and from Imm igration officials in Ottawa, then I ask the Mi nis ter why did he state in this Ch amber on February 11th of this year that he was not aware of where the West German company is trying to obtain its money? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Mini ster of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition just answered my question, his own question.

He asked me if I was aware of where they were obtaining their money. I received a telex from them, at least one of my staff did on December 15th, saying tha t they had arranged some financing. The telex also invited, it didn't say that they would pay people's way from 1611 Manitoba to Germany. lt said it would invite us in early January to be there towards the end of Jan uary to look at the prototypes. We have never received an invitation and, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of the way they are raising their money. lt could be from banks or private people, I don't know. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it appears that the Minister responsible for Economic Development isn't much aware of anything pertaining to the operations of his Department. I further ask the Minister whether or not the company has been offered specific space at specific rental rates in either Gimli or in Winnipeg, and further has the company been provided by the province with specific information as to tax rates, land prices, lists of suppliers, estimates of heat, water, hydro, and other costs such as telephone? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the company made a request, although the

article says they didn't, we have on record requests of funding, requested from them which was made to us approximately a year ago. At that time, I wrote Mr. Heydecke, pointing out our position in the Province of Manitoba. In that letter I told Mr. Heydecke there would be available to him reasonable office space at 155 Kennedy Str eet, where he or some of his staff could work out of, on the basis that they were to indicate that they were serious in going ahead with the project in Gimli, Manitoba. Mr.

Heydecke, on three occa sions was accompanied by my staff to the Gimli base, and at that time they were shown with their accountants from Burch, Findlay, McFarlane the published rates in the Gimli project up there, the Gimli Park. We also made it very clear that when he asked us verbally, we had nothing on file, Mr. Speaker, at one time wanted us to expropriate the farmland around and sell it to him. That wouldn't be acceptable. Then he asked what the taxes were in the area; he asked all the different questions about land prices. These are readily available to his accounting firm or his lawyer, at any time, Mr.

Speaker. I may as well clear up the next question, Mr. Speaker, regarding informa tion. The

article says, when he spoke about the $59.60, he says, - this is to Mr. Jerry Gunn, signed by Mr. Mitchell of my department - "I understand that your clients in West Germany on the helicopter project are looking for a comprehensive directory of potential Canadian suppliers to the aerospa ce indus try. I also understand that you have been supplied with a list of companies in this country that can produce certain aerospace components, but this does not include the list of foundries and other general backup facilities.

I am enclosing a copy of the Mani toba Trade Dir ecto ry, which outlines all the services for manufacture and distribution within the province and which can be made available to your client. "I recognize that this is not the national listing, but should be of some interest to you and your associates. Should you desire a reference for the availability of manufacturers on a national basis, I suggest you contact the Canadian Manu facturers Association at 408-428 Portage Avenue, in Winnipeg

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 and they can supply you with a 1980 Canadian Index at a cost of $59.60 plus 2 cents postage." Now. Mr. Speaker. "There are also various trade indexes available for reference in our departmental library and there is one of the trade indexes available there and the public is encouraged to make use of them. I am sure that through these various sources, your client will be able to arrive at a good cross

section of potential suppliers across Canada." MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, further to the Minister of Econo mic Dev elopme nt, is the Minis ter of Econom ic Dev elopme nt indicating today, in this Cham ber, tha t he has provided to the representatives of the helicopter comp any all information requested by that helicopter company, or indeed that there is still some information that that company is awaiting? MR. JOHNSTON: If the Leader of the Opposition would read the

article that he's referring to, I believe that one of the officials of my department stated, that we feel that we have provided the information that has been requested from us, certainly the information in writing. The official also said if there is more information they require and if they're not satisfied, they could contact us and we will do our best to supply us. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition with a fourth question. MR. PAWLEV: Mr.

Speaker, since the company has not req uested any funds from the Province of Manitoba; and since the company has indicated that the delay and the holdup is due to inability on its part to obtain information from this government; and since this government is represented by this Minister of Economic Development, who has given this matter his top priority, his top priority: Can the Minister advise whether or not he intends to instruct his department to undertake a complete review of his department's handling of this matter? Furthermore, Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise whether or not he will review his general policy pertaining to providing information to potential new businesses interested in coming to the Province of Manitoba? MR. JOH NSTON: Mr. Speak er, we had a brief review this morning, and I'm satisfied that the information to this company, that they requested, was provided. I have said if they feel they need anymore. it will be provided. I don't know what more I can tell the honourable member.

When he talks about the review of supporting companies to come to this province. when we have a list of over 300 companies or more, that have started business in the Province of Ma nitoba through DREE gra nts or Information Assistance from our department, etc., I would say that the department is doing a very good job working with people at the present time, Mr. Speaker. The position of the province, which I outlined to Mr. Heydecke last February; it was outlined to him again by one of the officials of my department on 1612 February 24th of 198 1, it does not change. The helicopter ompany which is owned by Mr.

Heydecke or lead by Mr. Heydecke must provide a business plan for the Federal Government and until that time, until they do that, I can assure you that the province will not be making any move on that particular program. We did a study on it The study was three-quarters paid for by the Federal Government and one-quarter paid for by the Provincial Government; the study apparently does not satisfy the Federal Government at the present time. If the company is not able to satisfy the Federal Government, I can assure you the Provincial Government will not be moving on it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEV GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour, in view of my failure to make any impact on the Minister of Consumer Affairs. Is the Minister of Labour aware of the Greater Win nipeg Ga s Com pany standard instructions regarding service to their own service people, which called for, amongst other things, free inspection of all residential appliances and adjustments as required on all gas burning portions of the appliance; cleaning of all domestic fur naces, boilers, water heaters, refrigerators, when requested?

Is he aware that in view of the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Que stions of awareness are hardly questions seeking information. Would the honourable member care to rephrase his question? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, is it of concern to the Minister of Labour, in his capacity as Minister who has conc er n over indus trial disp utes, tha t the Winnipeg Gas Company is prolonging an industrial dispute by taking advantage of the fact that they are no longer supplying services to their customers? Mr. Speaker, I would like a Page to provide the document to the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

KEN MacMAS TER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, work stoppage issues are won and lost in a variety of ways. Let me suggest to the Member for lnkster a different line of thinking. He is suggesting now tha t the go vernment or tha t the Greater Win nipe g Gas Com pany is now cha rging their customers for a service that previously to the strike was allegedly given for free. Mr. Speaker, there is a possibility that union leaders could consider that advantageous to their position and I say to you this, Mr. Speaker, for consideration.

If I was a union leader and had some people out on strike and I found the person that I was striking against was doing something adverse to some of its customers, I would do, I think, what the union people are doing in this case. They're making a fair amount of noise about it, they're bringing it to a lot of people's attention, that the customers in fact allegedly are suffering some lack of service that they had before the strike and it's creating public pressure on the company to get themselves damn

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 well back to the bargaining table. That's what I might think if I was a union leader. What I might think if I was president of the particular company would be kicking some of my advisers in the you know where for allowing that type of public pressure to be generated on behalf of the union. MR. GREEN: In view of the fact that all of the advice the Minister of Labour has given and all of the pressure has no effect whatso ever on the Minister to whom the Gas Com pany reports, Mr. Speaker, the Minister to whom the Gas Company is responsible through the Public Utility Board.

Would the Minister, in view of the fact that this is an essential service, now consider it having had no effect on the Government or on the Company and consider convening an industrial enquiry, not for the purpose of intervening in the dispute but to determine whether an essential service company is refraining from providing services to the customers to whom it has an exclusive franchise of services, to determine whether they are doing that in order to save money and prolong the strike? I ask the Minister whether he aware of the Gas Company's advertising, which says, Mr.

Speaker, that trained and licensed Gas Com pany servicemen are on call 24 hours a day to provide a free inspection, adjustment and advisory service? Again, Mr. Speaker, I want this document made to the Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I suppose the Member for lnkster should be excused from not understanding what I was saying. I suppose if I look opposite, the Member for Kildonan and Logan would be the only two that have had the years of union experience that would understand in fact thal you use a lot of weapons when there's a work stoppage.

What I've said to you, and it's recorded in Hansard, I believe to be a valid point. I believe that the union people feel that way. it's a pressure point that's being applied at this particular moment, and the union people don't need to be told what to do about that particular advantage that they have today in this dispute. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister now appears to have changed his song from last year, when he said that the only person who understood the labour relations has left the New Democratic Party and now sits here where I am. Would he, Mr. Speaker, would he -( lnterjection) Mr. Speaker, those were the Minister's words. Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister consider, since two weeks have elapsed since this matter was brought to his attention, and there is neither a settlement of the strike, which I agree should not be brought about by any kind of government intervention, nor is there service to the customers of Manitoba Hydro such as has been promised by the Gas Company. Would the Minister consider convening an industrial enquiry not to settle the strike but to determine whether the Gas Company is fulfilling its responsibility to the customer which it has an obligation to serve by The Public Utilities Act ... MR. SPEAK ER: Order, please.

I believe the question is repetitive; if the member cares to rephrase it. 1613 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the first question was answered on the basis of not under my lack of understanding, I am repeating the question on the basis of the Minis ter's lack of understanding because he didn't answer it, and I'm merely asking him whether he will now consider convening a public enquiry to determine whether the Greater Winnipeg Gas Com pany has deliberately prolonged this strike because it is saving money on the amount of services which it is supposed to provide to its customers. MR.

MacMASTER: Well, the first thing I'd better clear up is the statement that I said last year and there is no question. The Member from lnkster understands the philosophy. We're talking about strikes and we're talking about negotiations, and there's only really two other people in this House that understand it. On that side in particular the Member for Kildonan and the Member from Logan who have years of union experience, have gone thr ough the conciliation, arbitration, negotiating in strike problems - they understand it.

I can be corrected if the Member from lnkster has been involved in that process from a practical viewpoint rather than a legal viewpoint. Maybe he has. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Speaker, to precisely answer his question, I don't think at this stage that there's a need for an enquiry. I do know, and maybe it's public and maybe it isn't public, but I don't think that it's confidential that the two parties are in fact talking. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to ask the Minister for Economic Development if he can indicate whether or not the lack of funding was partly the reason for failure to reach an agreeme nt as between the Province of Manitoba and the helicopter plant people in Gimli. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of whether it was lack of funding from the province or the Federal Government that stopped the helicopter program from moving ahead or not. They made a request as I said, to us, for some funding regardless of wha t the newspaper

article ma y say, approximately last February. lt was not granted. We in the province agreed with the Federal Government to do a study; the study was returned to us. There was a request by the Federal Government to do a business plan. We also informed them that they would have to find their financing, we informed them that the Gimli Park had not been rented at this time and that it would be on a first-come, first-serve basis. They were up there three times. I don't know whether it was the lack of funding from government that stopped it or not. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that the Minister acknowledges tha t there was indeed a request for provincial funding of the helicopter plant proposal for Gim li, could he indicate why the

Thur sday, 12 March, 1981 province chose not to provide any funding for that plant? MR. JOHN STON: I thought the answer to the question is obvious. Would the province provide funding before we had had the report from the consultant, which was paid for by the Federal and Provincial Governments? Would we go into funding of an aircraft that did not have proper certification, the way the previous government did? No, Mr. Speaker, we would wait until we had reports from the consultant.

The consultant's report was in; the Federal Go vernment has read it; the Federal Government has asked for a business plan; the Federal Government has asked for that on the basis that up to now it is a paper company; the Federal Government asked for it because their representative went to Germany and found that there were only two helicopters in a crate on the border of Switzerland. Mr. Speaker, the company had not presented to us any kind of reason for the Provincial Government to go into it; they haven't satisfie d the Federal Government at this point either. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe anyone would suggest that the Government of Manitoba advance moneys to a proposed plant operation wherein it is deemed that it is not a viable proposal. My question of the Minister, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not the province at least indicated to the firm that they would be prepared to fund, to some degree, that particular plant if indeed the consultant's report was positive? MR. JO HNSTON: The provinc e, Mr . Sp eak er, indicated that if the report was favorable and the Federal Government - who are the experts, Mr. Speaker?

We ·do not have experts in the aerospace industry, as such, in the Province of Manitoba. There is a department of the Federal Government that has, under Indust ry, Trade and Commer ce, a special section. We rely on them for a lot of advice. Mr. Speaker, we have indicated that we would take a look at the whole project if the report was such that the Federal Government believed that it would be viable. Mr. Sp eaker, I don't think that the government can do any more than that, other than, Mr.

Speaker, that we did indicate that if they were serious about moving into Gimli and could produce the financing and everything that would be required, that we would consider letting them have the space in Gimli at a reasonable rate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. GERA LD W.J. MERC IER (O sborne): Mr. Speaker, last week the Memb er for Burrows asked me a question with respect to transfer of liquor vendors' permits. I am now advised by the Liq uor Control Commission that transfers of liquor vendors' permits are being processed, as received, with no delays.

With reference to new liquor vendor applications, there are cur rently 22 applications involving 20 different towns and villages, and these requests are being held in abeyance pending receipt of the report from the Mini sterial Advisory Comm ittee on Liquor Control and the applicants have all been advised in writing. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCH ROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Economic Development.

In view of the fact that that portion of the Enterprise Manitoba Program providing grants to ru ral businesses is not achieving its goal of expanding our econo my, will the Min ister rene got iate tha t agreement with Ottawa in order that those funds can be used instead to reduce interest being paid by existing businesses, which are in serious trouble because of the economic mismanagement of this government and because of the higher interest rates brought on by successive Federal Conservative and Liberal Governments? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, I would just like to briefly say what I said, there are no experts in the aerospace industry in the province. There are very good people in aerospace in the province, but within our department we do not have the expertise the same as the expertise that they have in Ottawa. lt is very hard to answer the honourable member's question, Mr. Speaker, because I don't agree with him about the economic condition of the province. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, if these are the good times promised by the Tories in 1977, I wonder when the bad times are going to come.

I would like to know how many of these businesses that have received these grants from this Minister would have expanded in any event without those grants? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the present study that is being done on the program, I can tell him that the cons u ltants have been in conta ct with approximately 67 or 68 of the people who had grants from us.

The indication at the present time is that over 60 percent of those questioned said they would not have gone into the project without the assistance of the Provincial Government, and others have said that they would not have been able to buy as modern equipmen t without the assistance of the program. We hope to have the full report very soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I too would welcome that report, but I would again ask the Minister to determine, while he is getting this report, how many businesses would still be in business had we had some interest rate subsidization, such as Lambair and many of the other businesses that have bitten the dust in the last year, if we would have used that money to subsidize those rates, which were brought about by the Conservative and Liberal Federal Governments, instead of pouring the money into other businesses which appeared not to have needed it in the first place. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the member has had it explained to him five times. I think I could go to Ha nsard in my Es tima tes last year and see questions from him. The Enterpris e Ma nitoba Program has five sections to it. it is a $44 million 1614

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 program. The last section,

Section 6, is the Rural Incentive Program. lt is $5 million over five years, of which the province puts in $2 million over five years. lt was designed to help inc rease the manufacturing and to expand the manufacturing in the rural areas. There are approxi mately 465 man ufacturing com panies in the rural area of the Province of Manitoba and that has to be corrected. This program was brought about because there was nothing for those small manufacturers in the rural area to help them expand or help them to go into business. There were all kinds of programs, DREE, FBD, everything else for small people.

The provincial government and the federal government sat down and came to an agreement that we would try, which cost the Provincial Government $2 million over five years, to try to do some thin g to help expand the manufacturing in rural Manitoba. If the honourable mem bers on the other side don't want to do that, they should stand up and make it known right now. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Minis ter of Economic Dev elopment, the Min ister of Economic Deve lopment has left the im pression that the com pany was seek ing funds.

Will the Min ister acknowledge that the $3 million to $4 million which were involved in the initial discussions between the Province of Manitoba and a helicopter company were the result of an indication by officials within his department that there was a slush fund within his department that could provide $3 million to $4 million; that that was later found to be incorrect; that statement was then withdrawn by officials within his department and that ever since that particular stage in the negotiations, the company has not requested any funds whatsoever from the Government of the Province of Manitoba? MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Sp eaker, I know of no indication made by my department; I will check it. As far as I am concerned, I know of no indication that was made by the department since I have been in the department, but we have gone through the files, and the Province of Manitoba has never made it known to anybody that we had a slush fund. The Province of Manitoba says that they would consider each indi vidual application. Tha t has been the statement that we have always made. Mr. Speaker, there was a request made in February of 1980. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, the Min ister has indicated that the plant is not viable and that is cert ainly not for mem bers on this side of the Cham ber or elsewhere to dete rmine. But it is interesting, Mr. Speaker, and I ask the Minister to advise why he announc ed this project with such tremendous fanfare, with such extensive coverage, in the midst of the Federal Election in 1980, in order to try to salvage the sinking ship of the Progressive Cons ervative ca ndida te in the Co nstituenc y of Selkirk-lnterlake? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Sp eaker, it was with the greatest disappointment of this government that that project was ever annou nced at that time. Mr. Speaker, the announcement was made about the 1615 helicopter plant in Gimli by a federal member; it was a Conservative federal member. lt was made by that member, not the member running in Gimli, and it was made after there was information given to him by the helicopter people, not this Provincial Government, and that's just another misleading lie by ... MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Economic Development, or the so called Minis ter of Economic Devel opment. My question to that Minister, as there seems to have been -(l nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I appreciate the levity of the Chamber, but if we could have some decorum to go with it. I would recognize the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, this is no laughing matter. The bungling of the Department of Economic Development may be a joke, but it is no laughing matter.

My question to the Minis ter re sponsible for Economic Development follows on the light of media reports, which have created considerable doubt as to the competence of that Minister. The Minister says that he had complied with every request from those individuals promoting the helicopter report. Is the Min ister now prepared to table copies of the correspondence requesting that information from his department, as well as his replies and the material tha t he says was atta ched to those replie s in response to those requests?

Is he prepared to table them so that we can see, so that we can judge, in fact, if they have responded accurately, effectively, and efficiently to those requests for information? MR. SP EAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr. Speaker, the member knows how to receive tabled correspondence, or requests for corre spond ence. The re was a tremendous amount of verbal conversation between the two parties. I can assure the honourable member that, according to my staff, they have done everything that they believe possible regarding the requests from the company. Mr.

Speaker, we made our position clear last February; we waited for an invitation from the wire that was received on the 15th of December; we had no invitation; we reiterated our position on February 24 of 1981. Mr. Speaker, the position is this, that the company must satisfy the Federal Government with a business plan and prove the viability of a business plan, and if the Federal Government wants to go into it, fine. The Province of Manitoba is not moving on the helicopter program until all of those things are done. MR. CO WAN: I think this side's, the NDP Opposition's concern ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

If the honourable member has a question, he may state his question.

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is: What process does the Minister's department use. what process has the Minister developed in order to generally respond to requests for information from industry and other individuals who are seeking to locate their industry in the Province of Manitoba? Can he ind icate now what the general response to those sorts of requests are, because this issue goes beyond this one incident; this issue goes into the way that Minister has failed to live up to his responsibilities in his department? MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the last person would worry about making any statements about my competency would be the Member for Churchill. In fact. it wouldn't bother me a bit. Let me inform you that the department is such that we get all kinds of requests and we follow up all kinds of leads. When you are dealing with business, there's no set process, but we do have a process of fol low-up and correspondenc e, etc ., with our development officers that work very well. lt works very well, Mr.

Sp eaker, because we have been involved in the last two years in approximately 300 businesses that have come to Manitoba or expanded in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, it is not I alone who is concerned with the Minister's com petence. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question? MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, as there are many who are concerned with the Minister's competence, can he. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Has the honourable member a question? The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Is the Minister prepared to table the study which he indicates was done on this particular funding and this particular project by the Federal Government and the Provincial Government? Is he prepared to provide a copy of that study to the House so that we can examine it and peruse it, as I think should be the responsibility of the Opposition? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Sp eaker, the mem ber wou ldn't understand it anyway, but I would be pleased to table the study, Mr. Speaker, on the conditions that are usually found or done in this House. The study was three-quarters paid for by the Federal Government, Mr.

Speaker, and I will contact the Federal Government and if they feel that the study is such that they would like to see it released, if there's an Order for Return I would do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Due to the light snow cover this winter and the possible threat of a drought, I wonder if the Minister has any plans in the department that the farmers will have the backing of the government and the department in the event that we don't get any more moisture than we've had all winter. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I have requested that the department bring forward a report on the soil conditions as well as any information that is available from BUS, work that is being done on their predictions of the moisture conditions as well as looking at the alternative programs, Mr. Speaker, that may have to be re introduc ed this year to alleviate some of the difficulties if we were to have drought conditions. However, Mr. Speaker, if we are to have warm dry conditions in this country, then I do prefer to have them in Janua ry and February.

MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of another Minister. I wonder can I ask the Minister ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. You can have a supplementary. There are other membe rs that haven't had a chance yet. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed to the Minister of Urban Affairs, and refers to the request -( Interjection) MR. SPEAK ER: Orde r please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS.

WESTBURY: To the Min ister of Urban Affairs: My question refers to the request of the City of Winnipeg last November relative to having vacant lots approved for low-cost infill housing in the city approved by the Minister for second mortgage assistance under the Manitoba Home Ownership Assistance Plan. Has the Minister yet given a reply to the city on th is matter and if so, what is the reply, please? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, that matter is still under consideration but I expect it will be resolved very shortly. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please.

The time for Question Period having expired we'll proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADDRESS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Sp eaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital: 1616

Thu rsday, 12 March, 1981 THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for a copy of the statements of Thomp son, Dorfman, Swea tman, itemizing the total charges of $240,908.04 paid to them for services provided to the Commissioner of Inquir y into Manitoba Hydro as referred to in Sessional Paper No. 54. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources, Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker, that's not Interim Supply, Interim Supply will be tomorrow, it will just be the two committees today. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee with the Honourable Member for Rad isson in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Health. CONCURRENT COM MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HEALTH MR.

CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We're on page 74, (c X1) the Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: The Minister was g1v1ng us some figures on this two nights ago and I was wondering if he could just quickly give us the figures for this year as compared to last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, is the Member for Transcona referring to the patient populations that MR. PARASIUK: That's right, patient populations and staff, I think, just to give us some idea of patient to staff ratios as well. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, I can do that.

With respect to the staffing, at the two major mental health centres, Brandon and Selkir k, total staff man years at Brandon are 63 1 . . MR. DESJARDINS: No vacancies? MR. SHERMAN: Well, we have some vacancies but what we have managed to do is keep the vacancy level down very low through the filling of positions quickly and on the basis of term staff, and that mechanism has enabled us to keep our vacancy rate low, both at Brandon and Selkirk. I'll just check with my chief psychiatrist to see whether we have a figure on the vacancies. The vacancy rate at Brandon is runnin g 1. 8 percent.

The total vacancies as of February 28th .I'm advised were 11 out of a total SMY complement of 63 1. At Selkirk the total SMY complement is 474. 1617 The vacancy rate at Selkirk is 1.3 percent and it amounts to six vacancies as of February 28th. At Eden, I don't have the staffing at Eden, but as you know it's admini stered by the Menno nite Churches, but I have got the patient population and out-patient population at Eden and we can certainly supply the committee with the staff figures for Eden.

On the patient populations in Brandon, the in patient population in December of 1980 was 555, compared to an in-patient population one year earlier of 574. At Selkirk the in-patient population in December of 1980 was 370, compared to an in-patient population one year earlier, December, 1979, of 39 1. At Eden, the in-patient population in December of 1980 was 37 compared to an in-patient population one year earlier of 43. Did the honourable member ask for the out-patient populations too? MR. PARASIUK: Yes. MR.

SHER MAN: The out patient populations : Br andon, Dec em ber, 1980, 1,618 compared to a figure one year earlier of 1,488; Selkirk, December, 1980, 1,235 compared to a figure one year earlier of 1,549; Eden, December 1980, 74 1 compared to a recorded figure for one year earlier of 1,328 but my officials advise me that the 7 41 is the number of patients actually under active treatment on an out-patient basis at the end of the year and the figures for earlier years at Eden actually included all out-patients carried on their records, many of whom had no longer been receiving active treatment.

So it is hard to com pare. (I nterjection)- well, that's true, too. So there's really no reasonable comparison the re. I gue ss the most reasonable comparison, or the most meaningful comparison, would be to give you the previous year for Eden. December, 1978, it was 1, 139 and that compares with December, 1979 of 1,328 and December, 1980 of 7 41. So you can see that the updating of the records has changed the mathematics substantially. MR.

PARASIUK: Can the Minister give an indication as to why the number of out-patients in Brandon has increased, while at the same time the number of out patients has decreased in Selkirk and decreased in the Eden Centre at Winkler? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I don 't kno w whether I can offer a fully satisfactory answer to that question, other than to say that with respect to some of our mental health centres, we have different commun ity outreach programs in place than those that are in place in other communities and there are also di fferent forms and structur es of support available in different commun ities. lt doesn't reflect either any shift in direction or emphasis in terms of program mi ng.

As a matter of fact, through the Communi ty Health Directorate, we are hoping to intensify and expand the ability of the department to deal with this particular health problem in the community and outside of the institution. lt doesn't reflect any general change in prevalence of mental illness but there certainly, from time to time, are aberrations in respect to regional incidents of illness, mental and otherwise, and I'm not sure that I can provide any more satisfactory explanation than that. I can look into it for the committee. • • •

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDI NS: Mr. Chairman, it should be normal that as you have less people in the in population, the out-population should grow. I think that is recognized and I think that is one of the aims of the department. providing there are facilities to take care of them also. Now, could it be in Selkirk, that Selkirk is closer to Winnipeg?

Could some of these people be coming in, for instance, from psychiatric wards of different hospitals and could it be, also, that there is a change in the personal care homes, that some of them are now in personal care homes? MR. SHERMAN: Certa inly there is a greater capacity to deal with some of these problems in Winnipeg than in some other parts of the province, and Selkirk would no doubt be a bigger beneficiary of that than Brandon would.

We have, in the last year. put into place the acute emergency psychiatric facility at the Health Sciences Centre, which can handle emergency cases right off the street on a 24- hour-a-day basis. We have the MacEwen Residence fully operating now at 56 beds on the St. Boniface Hospital campus. We have the thrus t of the Communi ty Health Directorate moving into higher gear and no doubt the suggestion that the Member for St. Bon iface makes goes some dis tance in explaining the change. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, the amounts ind icated here under (c), has there been any underexpenditure or is the amount shown here the amount that is expected to be spent in this year? I realize the general - I'm not talking about the general salary increase. MR. SHERMAN: We don't expect at this point in time to have an underexpenditure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I would like to go back to the figures again and look at both the in-patient and out patient , expecially the out-patient di fferences between Brandon and Selkirk. They both have inverse trends.

The out-patient number in Brandon is increasing, while at the same time it is decreasing in Selkirk, yet according to your own Annual Report, the Brandon Mental Health Centre has a catchment area of approximately 210 ,000 residents and Selkirk Mental Health Centre has a catch ment area of 780,000 people.

So I can appreciate that you might have some differences with respect to the in-patient population, becaus e you mi ght have a bigger capacity. a bigger plan at Brandon, but in relation to out-patient services , I would have thought that Selkirk would have had a higher num ber of out patients than Brandon. if in fact the catchment area is at least three times greater. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think the only explanation of that is the facilities that are avai lable in Winni peg, we have psych iatric departments and psychiatric out-patient capacity at six hospitals in Winnipeg now, and that speaks to primarily, much of the catchment area in which Selkirk would consider itself involved.

I think the addition of the facilities in Winnipeg to which I have referred and the Community Mental Health Dir ectorate and the force of commu nity mental health workers in Winnipeg, combined with the six psychiatric departments in out-patient capacities in Winnipeg hospitals, makes it possible to reduce the demand and pressure on Selkirk for out patient services to the level reflected in these statistics. Brandon is in a somewhat different category in that respect. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if I could correct something left on the record the other night when we were talking about the statistics for mentally ill persons and post-mentally ill persons in Manitoba, when I said that there were 800 in foster homes and 14,000 in an out-patient capacity and I think we cited 5,000 on sort of continuing treatment, but not regular out-patient treatment. The 14,000 figure was in error, Mr. Chairman. lt reflects out patient visits and would reduce down in numbers of persons to about 5,000 persons, 14,000 out-patient visits. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, this is not too serious, but the staff man year that you gave us for the year between Brandon and Selkirk comes to 1, 105 and that's what you're requesting this year. lt seems then that you were operating on a certain amount of small number of unauthorized staff at this time who were borrowed from somewhere else because you were given 1 ,092; you asked for 1,092 according to your figures, unless there's a transfer somewhere else. MR. SHERMAN: Well the figures that I've given include a request for . . MR. DESJARDINS: I am talking about what you want, not what you have now. MR. SHERMAN: Right. MR.

DESJARDINS: Then your vacancies would be way less than that; you would have practically no vacancy at all, because you gave us 11 out of 631 and six - that's 17 vacancies between the two places - and you are asking for 13, so you have got only a vacancy of four. MR. SHERMAN: No, the vacancies that I gave, 11 at Brandon and six at Selkirk, are as of February 28 on the present complement, but we are asking for 13 new positions, five at Brandon and eight at Selkirk. MR.

DESJARDINS: I understand, but you are saying that when you gave us the information, you gave us the vacancy that was an actual vacancy as of that date, but the staff man years, you gave us what you want, you have included your increase in there, the 17 increase. MR. SHERMAN: That's right. For 1981-82, the staff man year figure. MR. DESJARDINS: That's a little unusual. That gives us, you know, a vacancy of one ... 1, 105 was 1618

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 the figure that we were given between Brandon and Selkirk, and this is what they are requesting. What they have now is 1 ,092. What had been authorized last year was 1,092, but he is giving us the vacancies out of the present. it's not that important. MR. SHERMAN: That's correct, Mr. Chairman, but we intend to fill those new ones immediately upon April 1 or April 2, as fast as we can. But it is correct that the total staff-man-year complement that I have provided for Brandon of 63 1, is the 1981-82 figure that we are putting in front of the commi ttee.

At the present time, th at total of 631 would be 626, because we are asking for five new positions. In the case of Selkirk, the 1981- 82 request is for 474, and at the present time it would be 466 because eight are new positions. The vacancies are vacancies on the existing complement, not counting the 13 new positions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, just one question. Can the Minister advise whether there are an adequate num ber of psychiatric nurses, or whether there is still a shortage of them?

Can he give us an idea how both institutions or all institutions, are dealing with regard to the question of psychiatric nurses? Is there a shortage in Manitoba or do we have as many as we need? MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Chairman, we don't have enough psychia tric nurses in Manitoba, and psychiatric nurses are really in the vanguard of this whole health field, psychiatry and mental health, and we look to our psychiatric nurses to carry the initiatives and the main workload in this field. I know the commi ttee recog niz es them as the vital professionals that the y are, and we don't have sufficient.

We are very much encouraged by a substantial increase in enrolments in our Psychiatric Nurse Training Program in the professional training com potent of the depa rtment and of thes e Estima tes, which will produce for us a major increase in psychiatric nurses for Brandon, Selkirk, and the Manitoba School within the next two years in 1980, Mr. Chairman, we graduated 52 psychiatric nurses and that com pared with 43 in 1979 but it also compared with 61 in 1978.

As of Janua ry 198 1 we have a total of 141 psychiatric nurses under training; 99 of them are in the first year of their two-year course and 42 of them are in the second year. Provided we retain them all, we'll be graduating an additional 42 this June and we'll be making every effort we can to retain a maximum of that 99 who are in the first year and would be graduating in June of 1982.

The projected first year enrolment for September 1981 coming up, is a further 104, so the man power need is certainly being addressed, but the answer to the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks' question really lies right in those statistics and in those efforts that are being made to build up the intake and the size of the graduating classes. We do not have enough psychiatric nurses. For that reason under, I guess it was 2.(

a) Operational Support Services Admin istration, in our Estimates request we .are asking $378.8 thousand in the coming year as against $285,0 00 in the year now ending for 1619 psychia tric nurses at Brandon, Selkirk and the Manitoba School, for those training programs. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Mem ber for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated the enrolments and the nurses that are now in training and that some would be graduating in June of this year, but what he said basically was that he hopes that will fill the need if however, they choose to stay on in Manitoba.

Is there any reason that the Minister feels that they may not stay on in Manitoba, that they wouldn't be inclined to remain in Manitoba since they've gotten their training here? MR. SHERMAN: Well the only reason, I guess is the endemic one that we always face in Manitoba, the lure, the attractions of other jurisdictions.

I think that the new wage contract that has been put into place between Manitoba Health Organizations and the RN's, the Manitoba Organization of Nurses Asso cia tions, and the kinds of things that we recognize that we have to do in our collective agreements with the MGEA, will go some distance to encouraging psychiatric nurses to stay here plus, quite fran kly, I would hope that the re is some psychological support and encouragement that's being offered by the department itself.

We believe and I know that some people can categorize it partly as rhetoric, but it isn't rhetoric, I believe that we have majo r chal leng es in the psychiatric and mental health field, and I have talked to the Registered Psychiatric Nurses Association about it. I've certainly had many discussions with Dr. Roy Tavener and other of our psychiatric advisers about it.

I'm hoping to demonstrate that through the new facilities that we are trying to bring on stream like the MacEwan Residence and like the chronic psychiatric facility that I am proposing in my capital program, which I will be introducing as soon as we get to the Commission phase of the Estimates, that we are demonstrating to our mental health workers, our psychiatrists and our psychiatric nurses, that we mean business in the field of mental health and that there are many challenges here and they will be recognized and properly rewarded for staying here.

As I say, that may sound like rhetoric, but it's part of the job and I intend to follow through on it, but we do of course continually face the blandishments of other jurisdictions and the rating enterprises of other jurisdictions and we are caught in that competitive picture. But I have no reason to suspect, in direct answer to the honourable member's questions, that we will not be able to retain the major proportion of those 141 nurses who are now in training in the psychiatric field. I am aiming to retain all 141 of them. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, when the Mini Bter mentioned the agreement signed between the nurses and the MHO, and that of course is registered nurses, that these nurses would be under the MGEA I assume. it's a two-year agreement. Is the Minister satisfied that the agreement that was entered into in 1980 and now runs until the end of 1981, that the salary levels are adequate to attract the psychiatric nurses which we're badly in need of, so that they will tend to stay in Manitoba? - .

Thur sday, 12 March, 1981 I recognize that new facili ties migh t be an attraction, but in the final analysis I suspect that the rate of pay is a major reason why people leave or stay. I am wondering whether the Minister is satisfied that the MGEA agreement dealing with psychiatric nurses, which is quite separate from the one signed by the registered nurses with the MHO, whether he is satisfied that it's adquate to attract and keep at least a su bstantial number of the 141 in Manitoba. MR. SHERMAN: Mr .

Chairman, the Honoura ble Mem ber for Seven Oaks knows that we are in the middle of a two-year agreement with the MGEA and I expect that when the agreement comes up for rene gotiatio n that the re will be considerable discussion of the legitimate wage levels deserved by those iri the psychiatric nursing component, and I can assure the honourable memb er tha t any reasonable request will have my support. Not all the psychiatric nurses of course are in the MGEA. Those who are hospital based are under MONA, but Brandon and Selkirk are certainly in the MGEA.

I'm advised by my chief psychiatrist that with respect to the psychiatric nurses in Brandon and Selkirk the situation is stable. At Brandon we have not had any resignations. We have lost 30 psychiatric nurses at Selkirk over the course of the last year, most of whom, 25 of whom, went to the new Seven Oaks Hospital - stayed in the province, but went to Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: The 11 SMYs and 6 SMYs that they have been talking about at Brandon and Selkirk, are they for psychiatric nurses, these additional SMYs, and in any case could the Min ister give us a breakdown of the make-up of these 13 staff man years? MR.

SHERMAN: Yes, at Brandon the five positions include three nurses. MR. MILLER: Psychiatric nurses? MR. SHERMAN: Yes. One Assistant Co-ordinator of volunteers; we have about 100 volunteers who are attached to the Brandon Mental Health Centre in this field; and one Administrative Secretary, necessary in clinical records. At Selkirk the eight requests include five nurses. MR. MILLER: Psychiatric nurses? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, psychiatric nurses, some of them forensic; two workers for the Independent Living Program.

I might say that the Independent Living Program at Selkirk operates as an alternative to the Foster Home and Boarding Home Program. lt uses 15 group homes, having three or four clients each; four two-bedroom apartments, and nine single apartments, to accommodate a total of 88 clients. All those ciients need a degree of guidance and support from the staff and that's for the Independent Living Program functions. We need two additional workers for that program. The eighth position is a worker for the Home Finder Service.

The placement in homes of treated patients is co-ordinated in Winnipeg region through this service at Selkirk. lt co-ordinates about 100 homes which accomodate 350 clients. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the psychiatric nurses, the Minister indicated about 30 had left the Selkirk Hospital; 25 to Seven Oaks, and five I guess just left.

If 30 have left, have they been replaced by other psychiatric nurses, because the vacancies at Selki rk are only 6 SM Ys, so the question comes to mind that if 30 psychiatric nurses have left Selkirk, how can the vacancy rate be only 6 SM Ys, unless of course you've replaced them? MR. SHERMAN: Over the course of the year, that was the turn-over rate, and some of them were replaced by psychiatric nurses, some of them were replaced by nurses aides. I go back to the first question from the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks; no we do not have enough pyschiatric nurses. MR.

MILLER: What it boils down to is that because you couldn't get pyschiatric nurses, you've had to simply replace them with nurses aides, who don't have the training but their bodies are needed, and so you've done it that way. Okay that's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Just following through on then, there's a provision that when you get the nurse you would hire the nurse, so are some of these nurses aides, are they on term, or . MR. SHERMAN: Yes. MR. DES JARDINS: They're on term. They're in other words temporarily filling in for a position that you are trying to get. MR.

SHERMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: Now could you give us the same rundown pretty well as you did with nurses for the pyschiatrists or pyschologists that you have? MR. SHERMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: Maybe if the commi ttee is willing, maybe you can go through all of them, not only in the institution, because it is kind of related. I know you have some in Forensic and then also in Psychiatric Services for Children and so on. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, the medical staff at Brandon consists of 19 practitioners - 19 in total on the medical staff, 5 of whom are qualified pyschiatrists. MR.

DESJARDINS: Five are qualified and then what are the others? MR. SHERMAN: The others for the most part are G.P.s, all of whom took pyschiatry in ... MR. DESJARDINS: You don't have psychologists in that at all? MR. SHERMAN: Well there are psychologists, but I'm just ... MR. DESJARDINS: Not in the 19? MR. SHERMAN: No, the medical staff is 19 and the total number of pyschologists at Brandon is ten. At Selkirk the medical staff num ber is 16. Six of them are qualified psychiatrists and the total num ber of psychologists at Selkirk is eight. 1620

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. DESJARDINS: Would you prefer that we deal with all psychiatrists now who are employed by the department or do you want us to look at Psychiatric Services and Forensic and so on. In Community Health Directorate, I imagine . . . MR. SHERMAN: Well it doesn't matter to me, Mr. Chairman. lt might be simpler to deal with them as individual categories in the estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1) - pass; 2.(c)(2) - pass; 2.(c)(3) - pass; 2.(d)( 1) - pass - the Member for St. Boniface. MR.

DESJARDINS: I see that you have three less staff man years this year than you had last year, but there was also an inc rease of three with a Community Mental Health Directorate. Am I right in saying that this is just a kind of transfer working together? MR. SHERMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: That's it then, so there's no . MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's what has occurre d. The y'v e been de leted from this appropriation and transferred to the Commun ity Mental Health Directorate. MR.

DESJARDINS: Then can you give us how many psychiatrists that you have there then and maybe - we've passed Community Mental Health Directorate, but that might give us a chance to reopen it, in view of the fact that there have been some transferred. MR. SHERM AN: Forensic Services totals nine SMYs. There are two sections, of course, adult, which is at the Health Scie nces Centre, and children's, which is at the Manitoba Youth Centre. In adult ... MR. DESJARDINS: You said nine. That's in only one of them. The total is 13. MR. SHERMAN: Perhaps I moved ahead too fast, I was dealing with Adult and Children's Forensic.

Let me start with the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute and the Eden Mental Health Centre. There are two SMYs at the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute. They are former em ployees of the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute who elected to remain in the Civil Service. They are seconded to the Health Sciences Centre and paid from this appropriation. One of them is a psychologist and the other one is an activities aide. There are similarly two staff positions at Eden, which are Civil Service positions and paid from this appropriation. One of them is a psychologist and the other is a social worker.

Now that accounts for four SMYs out of the 13 for 1981-82 that we're looking at. Now before I move to the nine in Forensic, there are two psychiatrists and one physician who provide medical services to the Eden Mental Centre. They are all on contract to the Board of Directors. MR. DESJARDINS: They are salaried, but not part of the staff man years, they're not part of the 13? 1621 MR. SHERMAN: That's right, they're not part of the 13. They're not part of the 13, they're not part of the SMY complement. MR. DESJARDINS: Which ones did you transfer into Community Mental Health Directorate, the three positions? MR.

SHERMAN: Those ones that are on co ntract now are the ones that are trans ferred to the Community Mental Health Directorate, in terms of where their salaries will be paid from. MR. DESJARDINS: But are they not as a staff man year und er the Comm uni ty Mental Health Directorate. MR. SHERMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: Oh I see, I thought you just had the salary and not the staff man year, even though they are on contract. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(2) - pass - the Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, I just wanted to get a response from the Minister as to whether in fact there has been any feeling that the service provided with respect to Forensic Services is insufficient. I can recall last year there was some debate on this whole issue. MR. SHERMAN: Well the service that's provided by those who work for the province in this field is certainly excellent and certainly exceptionally good. There is no question that we need better forensic facilit ies, better for ensic service capacit y and capability. We don't deny that.

There is a need for a better and larger, better-equipped Adult Forensic Unit, other than that which you know currently is limited to certain space at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, and we need more psychiatrists and certainly more forensic psychiatrists. We have taken a step in that direction in the addition of a psychiatrist to Adult Forensic this year, but there is no question that we need a new adult forensic physical plant. lt would be my ambition to approve one as soon as possible.

Other pressures in the mental health field have taken priority up to this point in time, but that's not to minimize or underestimate the need for a better forensic capacity. MR. PARASIUK: Can the Min ister be some what more specific? He said he would like to approve a new facility as soon as possible. Does that mean that the Min ister is hoping that there would be one approved and on its way within a year, two years, or what time frame are we talking about? MR. SHERMAN: lt means within a year, Mr.

Chairman, but I would have to advise the comm ittee that it is not in the capital program which I propose to put before the comm ittee this year. But I would certa inly assure the Ho nourable Mem ber for Transcona that it is very high on the priority list and it is my intention at this juncture to ask for it in my next capital program.

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very important area because I would think what we are talking about here basically are part of Corrections, in a sense, and the services that we are going to provide in that respect, to the extent that we end up keeping people to the extent that we just don't treat mentally-disturbed offenders. I think all we do is ask for trouble as a society and it just works its way up the ladder, if we are in fact dealing with youths. into the adult correctional system.

I think that in the cost terms, the costs to society ultimately are incredibly high, both in terms of straight financial costs and also in terms of just the fabric of society itself. So I think that the extent to which we can do some work at an early age and if we had to establish priorities I would like to see the priority established at the juvenile level, in fact, if there is a tightness of money. I think that it is important that we move in this area and move fast and especially move fast with respect to adolescents and youth. MR. SHERMAN: I cer tainly acknowle dge the honourable member's comments, Mr.

Chairman. I would have to say that on the basis of my limited experience and limited knowledge of the field, that I think there is a greater urgency for improvement of our adult forensic capacity than there is for juvenile forensic capacity but I would certainly be prepared to entertain his views on the subject. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( d)(2) - pass; 2.(e) (1) - pass - the Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, maybe I should have brought this subject up under (

d) I want kind of a report. lt was something that we felt was quite urgent last year and the Min ister agreed with us and it had been studied, on child beating, and there is research being done. Now will that be under Forensic or is it under this item here, Psychiatric Services for Childr en? lt wou ld be under Forensic , I would imagine, the research? MR. SHERMAN: No, I think, Mr. Chairman, it comes under Child and Family Services in the Department of Community Services, the child abuse. MR.

DESJARDINS: That's the actual child abuse - that's the actual work, but I was referring more to the continuing research. lt wouldn't come under here because I see in the report that under Forensic, you talk about some of the research - where did I see that? I'm not insisting, I just want to know where we could talk about that. Would the Minister sooner wait until we get under Child Care? lt is a mental disorder; I think there's no doubt about that. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would agree that it's a very serious area of social illness and that we only see the tip of the iceberg in child abuse.

When the two departments were one department, Health and Commun ity Services, under my ministry, we did add to the Health Sciences Centre a capacity to deal mor e effect ively through Dr. Ken McRae's department, with child abuse. But it doesn't really come into the respo nsibili ties of our Forensic Services in the manner in which the Honourable Member for St. Boniface suggests. MR. DESJARDINS: There's no research going on between that and wife beating and . . . I thought there was constant research. MR. SHERMAN: Not in this de partm ent, Mr. Chairman.

I think it would have to be add ressed under Child and Family Services in Commu nity Services. We do have research going on under Forensic Services but it has to do with research into the victim of child abuse and what kind of impact that has on that person's behaviour, not into the motivation for the child abuse to begin with. MR. DESJARDINS: The research is more on the victim than on the offender? MR. SHERMAN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre. We are on 2.(e)( 1), to the member. MR. J.R. (B ud) BOYCE: I wonder wher e the Minister wants to discuss th!! psychiatric services for children.

There were great pronouncements made last year; I was wondering wher e they sit. (I nterjection)- it's the next page, under Psychiatric Services for Children. I see that there is an increase asked for some $1 40,000 or something for the next fiscal year. There was supposed to be a capacity at the Health Sciences Centre and other announcements that were made last year. I don't see any evidence of it in the commu nity or in the Estimates. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, that does come up next in the Estima tes. We are on Forensic Services at the moment. MR. BOYCE: No, we are on Psychiatric Services for Children. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(e) (1) , yes. MR. SHERMAN: Well, this is the line under which that subject properly falls, Mr. Chairman. MR. BOYCE: I haven't got Hansard from last year in front of me but it was annou nced by the government that they were going to considerably expand the services available to children in the psychiatric field and out in the community I see no evidence of it and here I don't see any evidence reflected in the Estimates. Where is this thrust taking place?

There was an announcement made at the closing down of either the ATU or CWU at the Health Scie nces Centre and that was su pposed to be conv erted to handle childr en with psychiatric problems. Perhaps the Minister could report what isn't being done apparently. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are three things essentially that are being done. First is the development of an adolescent psychiatric facility, and I'll come back to that. I know that members of the comm ittee are familiar with that project, at least in proposal form.

Secondly to that, we have recently refurbished and opened the former MacEwan Residenc e at St. Boniface General Hospital, which now is an Acute Care Psychiatric Facil ity with 56 beds, largely devoted to Acute Care Psychiatric Treatment in the adult field but partially available for child and ado lescent psychiatric treatment. There are beds 1622

Thur sday, 12 March, 1981 there available for adolescents. In addition to that, on the Community Services' side, the Estim ates of the Minister for Communi ty Services include funds for a new Adolescent Psychiatric Unit at the Knowles Centre, Knowles SchooL With respect to the long awaited Ado lescent Psychiatric Facility, we are hard at work on trying to put that into place, Mr. Chairman, and if the Member for Winnipeg Centre is frustrated, I can assure him that he is not the only one.

The funds were voted and approved in our Estima tes last year and they are available and the architects are at work on designing the physical plant, there has been no consensus on location of the site. Different factors have come into play during the discussions that have caused people to rethink their positions and rethink their preferences and we don't have the shovels into the ground yet, but I want to assure the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre that I have instructed that that site be found, indentified and sealed down within the next very few weeks and that construction get under way.

The whole project is really under the leadership of our new Director of Childrens Psychiatric Services, Dr. Keith Sigmundson, and he is as ambitious for it as anyone around this table, but we have run into site locale difficulties.

We have looked at a number of possibilities, we were very interested in the old Indian Residential School on Academy Road , the Federal Government wouldn't make that available to us; we've looked at sites adjacent to or on the Campus at the Health Science Centre, but that's a pretty large campus now and there are different opinions as to whether or not it should be on that campus or not; we thought we had a site assured opposite the Misericordia Hospital and that got sold out from under us.

The core area intiatives that have been spearheaded by three levels of government, Federal, Provincial and Municipal, have had an effect on the parameters, the geographical parameters of a search for a site, and all I can do at this junctur e is say to the Member for Winnipeg Centre that I'm at the limit of my frustration on it and I've instructed that we see some action very quickly this spring. MR. BOYCE: I want to thank the Minister for his comments and to sha re with him all of our frustrations in this regard, but he used one phrase in there that caught my ear.

He said, "The funds have been voted ." Is this another man ifestation of the Government even after making much to-do about keeping Current and Capital together after '77? Is the Minister suggesting that he's proceeding with this project as if he has existing authority and the authority is being carried over to subsequent years? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr.

Chairman, but the fiscal year isn't over yet as the honourable mnmber kno ws and the principle of the construction of such a facility has been approved by Treasury Board and by the Cabinet, and the annual impact that it will have on our Budget has been approved and there won't be an im pact as the honou rable member kno ws immedi ately, but perhaps the use of the term "the funds have been voted" might have been a imprecise phrase to use.

The principle has been approved and I have com plete assurance that in our future budgetary projections, the item that's in there to allow for the annua l operating costs and the 1623 amor tization of the Capital Cost of a 25 -bed Adolescent Psychiatric Facility based on 1981-82 dollars with an inflationary factor built-in are assured and will be contained in all our future Budgets, so perhaps the phraseology was a little imprecise. MR.

BOYCE: Is the Minister assuring us that if this money is not spent prior to March 31st of this year, that he will come back to the House and ask for a vote once more for the funds, or is he saying that this money will either be transferred to the Minister of Finance in trust, or is he saying that they're going to proceed as they have in the past with prior authorization for capital expenditures, you know, in direct conflict with their position which they went to the electorate with in 1977, and said that they were imposing in 1978?

I have not had evidence that they have fallen through in that commitment because we had asked in 1978 that the government put on the table a bill which would have wiped out all prior existing authorities. So, is the Minister assuring this Comm ittee and the Legislature that the particular funds, that were voted last year for Capital Expenditure in this field, if not expended by the 31st of this month will lapse? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Mr.

Chairman, they will lapse, but the com mi tment to an Ad olescent Psychiatric Unit is firm and whatever procedure is necessary to secure future author izat ion of the Legislature will be followed. Certainly the concept is a commitment on the part of the Government and the Department of Health. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to underline this point because I certainly don't want to put this project in jeopardy, but nevertheless I would like to see the Government fulfill its public posturing, that they are combining Current and Capital in their financial arrangements.

The Minister once more is telling this Comm ittee that if the mon ey is not expended prior to the 31st of this month, that he will come back for Sup plementary Sup ply Es timates relative to this project during the current Session of the Legislature? MR. SHERMAN: That's what I'll have to do, Mr. Chairman, unless I can find a very quick way to commit those funds before the end of the fiscal year, and that obviously is unrealistic, so that'll be the course that I'll have to follow, the one outlined by the Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, has the Minister under this item or any other item used that particular ploy, which I mentioned earlier, of transferring money to the Minister of Finance in trust, which is one way of expending money relative to the current fiscal year and having it in fact carried forward to the next fiscal year? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman.

I can give the honourable member an uneqivocal answer in the negative on that, and I don't know of any such course of action that has been followed by the government at any time since 1977-78, but perhaps the Honour able Member for Winnipeg Centre has some suspicions in that area; I don't know of any. Certainly that has not been done in the Department

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 of Health or by the Man itoba He alth Services Comm ission and it won't be done. MR. BOVCE: it's not a suspicion, Mr. Chairman, and I wouldn't fault the Minister if he in his judgment thought he should do it that way. I had occasion to do the same thing myself on one occasion, because it was dealt that it was in the public interest to do it at that time. But nevertheless the government has said that they are going to spend the money in the year that it's voted.

Could the Minister advise us just exactly, so I can follow it through, where the funds were voted in last year's Estimates for this capital expenditure and the amount of it? MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Ch airman, I believe this particular project was announced under the MHSC capital program, and I think the total cost that we're looking at, of the facility, is approxima tely $2.5 million. Now that of co urse would not all be expended in one year but that's what the total capital cost of the project will be, and the annual operating cost - 25 high intensity care psychiatric beds will run to $1 million a year. MR. BOVCE: Mr.

Chairman, now the Minister has me a little bit more confused. He said it won't be expended over one year. and if it is unde r the Manitoba Health Services Commission, perhaps, Mr. Chairman, we're a little out of order in going into this any further at this time and we could come back to this item when we deal with the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission capital requirements. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wish to say that I join the Member for Winnipeg Centre that I'm extremely disappointed and frustrated. This has been going on for so long.

I was frustrated when I was the Minister. I thought that it wasn't going fast enough and I remember the critic in those days was the Minister and how I was cha stized at the time. We had a long debate on this last year, in fact I would like to quote part of Hansard of last year and I quote something that I said. Mr. Chairman, I also want to touch up on the 25- bed facility, because I have been very disappointed, very surprised and very disappointed. I didn't realize until the Minister spoke this last time that we are no further ahead than we were six, seven years ago.

I couldn't believe that I heard right and I had to check. I still hope that both my colleagues, right here and myself, did not hear right or misun derstood the Minister, because I go back now to 1975 where the government was chastized for not doing enough or there were so many things missing in the treatment of these youngsters that facilities we needed, that we recognized in 197 6.

I might say that if any that were emphasized as being important, as being a weakness of the department by the then opposition, the then critic. or one of the critics for the opposition in those days, who is now the Minister, was absolutely right and he made a point and he made a long speech to say how the bad the situation was. Mr. Chairman. the Minister at that time did not give us the impression that he felt it was in all fairness a priority. but not necessarily the priority and no commitments. He said, "Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the Ho nourable Member for St.

Bon iface," and I'm quoting the Minister, he said, "I won't have any ... to be any excuse next year. I've identified my priorities and I've always included a psychiatric facility for adolescents amongst them." Anyway there is not much point in quoting last year, but we are no further, in fact I think we are further behind. At least that year we had transferred some money; I don't know how we did it, but we had transferred an amount of money to the Commission.

Maybe that's the answer to my honourable friend that ma ybe some of tha t money could be transferred. lt was a small amount; I'm sure that it's going to cost an awful lot more money now. I realize there were difficulties because I had instructed Dr. Tavener, who was as interested as I am and who felt it should have been a priority, to do it immediately. I felt that there was no way that I could go back to the House in another Estimate - I told him that in 1977 - without that being resolved. I am disappointed, I know it's difficult. I have some sympathy with the Minister.

I think they were even talking about the old Grace Ho spital at that time as one of the possibilities, and that's gone. But in the meantime this service is not provided adequately, and it might be now the Minister is saying very clearly - I believe I understood him to say that it is a question of priority, it was just a question of not voting the money or having something else that might have to be done before that, but a question of finding a site.

I would hope and we'll be patient another year, but I would serve notice on the Minister that next year we certainly will be demanding that something be done, that this has gone far enough. Something will have to be done, if they have to buy property or build it in one of the other facilities, this has to be done. it's been going on - it was first approved by the House, in principle, a definite approval in 1976, and then there was some money transferred. I don't know if that's the answer. The Minister was trying to find a way to maybe get some of this money transferred.

I don't know if that's a possibility, but if I remember right, and I would imagine that Dr. Tavener and Peter might remember something on that or Reg Edwards might, but there was a transfer made to the Comm ission for that facility, at least to get it going. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say, I am not trying to find a way to find the money transferred, because I was trying to answer the Member for Winn ipeg Centre, and I believe that there was a certain amount of money set aside as the Honourable Member for St. Boniface suggests, approximately $176,000.00.

That was returned to the Minister of Finance and went back into consolidated revenue. We have in all cases, if we're underspent, th ose mo neys are returne d to the Min ister of Finance. We have not retained any of it. We try to follow that principle which we said we would follow. I can only say, as all members around this table know, we don't look at health care budgets in terms of one year because of the downstream impact of these things.

We have to look in three-, five-, seven-, ten-year projections and the operating costs of that ado lescent psychiatric facil ity are in those project ions, in the base, that we know that the Province of Manitoba is going to have to be working 1624

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 to and comm itted to through the 1980's and the 1990's, so it is there. I don't have to go back and get approval on it again. I will, as the Member for Winnip eg Centre has sugges ted, have to get approval from the House on the expenditure but I don't have to get approval from my caucus or Cabinet colleagues on it. I can't offer any other explanation than the one I have offered. As the Member for St.

Bon iface knows, there are competing inter est groups in these fields and they make for long and tortuous deliberations, but I would agree with him, the long and tortuous deliberations have gone on too long. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that the Minister is quite candid, so what can you say, but I would like a clear comm itment. You see, the Minister scared me again by his last remarks - do you understand that there is competition and so on.

Does that leave the door to say, well, there was another priority, or is the Minister saying now that we want to go ahead; I have the approval of Cabinet; I am asking whatever I need this year from this committee; and the thing is just it's that we are looking and we are busy, and I have gi ven instructions that we have to find a place and as soon as we have this place we are going ahead; I don't have to come back. This is one instance where, or one project, that doesn't have to com pete. lt's already approved. Do we have this assurance? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the comm ittee has that assurance. MR.

DESJARDINS: We'll wish the Minister luck and I hope that there will be a lot of pressure and that we find a way, because it would be quite - it would be a scandal, I would say, if we have to keep on after approving this in 1976 and going in 1982-83 before we start, so we'll bear with the Minister, we have no option, and we hope that next year he'll be very pleased to announce that something is finally being done. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I have a few concerns here. wonder who the competing interest groups are that the Minister refers to.

The way I understand the budgeting process is that you have entities that issue debe ntures, that the Ma nitoba He alth Se rvices Commission in a sense pays off those debentures over a period of time . Now the question then becomes who is going to establish the psychiatric centre for children? Is it going to be the Health Sciences Centre; is it going to be a new institution that will be established? That is a major question. I'd like to get an aswer from the Minister on that issue. Who will in fact be running or establishing or running the psychiatric centre for children? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, an independent board will be appointed to administer the operations of this facility. When I talk about competing interest groups, I am not talking about competing financial interest groups. There's no question about that. The competing interest groups are the same competing interest groups that one lives with in the health communi ty.

Di fferent professionals, di fferent 1625 components of different professional groups, related professional groups and health occupations groups, hospital boards and trustees, hospital administrators, parents groups, advocacy groups, all have their own preferences, as the Honou rable Members for St. Boniface and Seven Oaks well know.

They all have their own preferences for locations of facilities, for functional design of those facilities, for functional programs and . it takes a lot of diplomacy, such as was exercised by the two previous Minis ters of Health and which I try to exercise myself, to keep these interest groups in balance and a consensus never comes easily, but I am the first to admit that this one has gone beyond the point of endurance. MR. PARASIUK: Just to fix this in my mind.

There will be an independent board established, it'll have commun ity representation, that's the way it will operate? lt will have no ties to other groups, it'll be an independent identity? MR. SHERMAN: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.

That was another question tha t we had to resolve, whether it should be established as a unit of an existing hospital and I might say th at Vi ctoria General Hospital was very interested in it; other hospitals were very .. intere sted in it; the He alth Sciences Centre was very interested in it; whether it should be established as a component of one of those hospitals or whether it should be an entirely inde pendent component.

My officials and I have opted for the latter course on the grounds that it will have a higher profile and more influence and more clout if it is not absorbed into and therefore possibly subordinated in some existing hospital operation. So it'll be an independent, non-profit community board that will be appointed to run it. MR. PARASIUK: I would like to have the Min ister consider a particular prospective with respect to location. I would hope that the location would be in some sense downtown in terms of when we mention the inner core.

I think it's criticial that these types of public facilities be easily accessible from all parts of the city. I think the public, and by that I mean government, especially the Federal Government and Provincial Government, have tended in the past to establish too many facilities in one end of the city, and given our transportation system, especially our public transportation system, have not made those facilities as accessible to major sections of the population as should be.

I see something like the Mint out in one corner of the city; I see something like the Federal Taxation Data Centre, which granted is in my constituency, but I was never pleased with a facility like that being in my

section of the city, I would have preferred it to be downtown where everyone would have equal access to it, especially as an employment opportunity. I would hope for some thing like Psy chia tric Services for Children, a psychiatric centre, that this might be in that type of location and I would hope that it wouldn't be something that eats up inner core initiatives money, but I hope it's being considered in that general planning framework. MR. SHERMAN: lt is, Mr. Chairman. In fact, the government has made the decision and instructed the Si te Search Com mitte e that it is the

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 government's wish that it be in the core area of Winnipeg. MR. PARASIUK: I commend that decision. I think that that follows on some past decisions that were made to locate the lab downtown, to locate the parking garage, there was a lot of flurry created about four or five years ago when people wanted to put those things downtown but they are downtown, they are more easily accessible.

I would hope that things like the Enterprise Centre, which is kitty corner from the Mint, which is unde r grant it another Min ister's jurisdiction, had followed the direction being shown with respect to the psychiatric centre. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think that if people in the Province of Manitoba were given an alternative of whether they were going to spend the amount of money necessary to operate such facilities as we are discussing and a little fewer miles of roads, I think that they would opt for this particular facility. lt is my opinion that from the time that the Minister resolves this difficulty of who is going to operate it, it's five years to fruition. it's five years from the time they get together, and I found the conversation very interesting.

They're looking for a site but they don't how they're going to operate it, they don't know who's going to operate it. The fact tha t it's a $167,000 which was voted last year, was put back in general revenue because they didn't expend the money. I empathize with the Minister that if he's talking about $2-1/2 million capital, he's probably talking about annualizing a million-and one-half in current dollars, but nevertheless we're playing games with this thing and it's one of the difficult decisions of government, that they have to decide how it's going to operate and they will be right or wrong.

You'll never get unamimous consent among the professions of how it should be operated, what model it should follow. Gosh, there's 36 different schools of thought in dealing with this, I think there's a matrix I've seen somewhere. Probably Dr. Tavener knows a hundred more, but nevertheless from the time that you make the decisions that you're telling us that you haven't made, it's five years to building this place. Look at Seven Oak s Hospital, for example. By the time you got the board together and the nurses together and every thing else, it's just coming onstream now. I remember my colleague for St.

Bon iface in 1977, most of us who had been involved in this field felt that we were finally going to get something, and five years from 1977 is 1982, so we're talking about 1986-87 before this comes onstream. The acquisition of the property and the whole deal; this is what's coming from what the Minister.

At least in my mind this is what the Minister is telling Manitobans, that everybody's been pushing and screaming for some deployment of the resources of the province in the field of psychiatry relative to child ren, and we are still as far away from it as we have ever been, except for the emotional commi tment tha t we need it; everybody agrees we need it but nobody is willing to make the hard decisions that it's going to be built out of brick and stone and so many rooms and so much of this, and the people who are going to run it. 1626 Those are the hard decisions which inevitably have to be made. MR.

SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, the five years that the honourable member is referring to, which are usually attached to any project, I agree with him, have been gone through. lt will take us a year-and-a half at the outside, and I believe the projection is 14 months, to build the facilities from the day the shovels go into the ground. The five years that he is referring to have been traversed and those decisions have been made.

We have said it is to be in the core area; we have said it is to be a community board, independent of other hospitals; we have said that the functional design is to meet the following parameters and requirements; and we have been held up on the agreement on the site, that's all. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, that's an admin istrative nicety that the plant will be there in 14 months from the time that you stick the shovel in the ground; I don't argue with that.

But nevertheless, having been involved in opening new plants of different kinds, the opening of the door in the physical plant doesn't start it, it takes at least five years. lt is three years from the time that you get there to shake your staff down and have an operating facility, so when I say five years I am talking about completely operant; I am not talking about just building it.

Nevertheless we have been saying this, that we are going to have an independent board, and until such time as the Minister is able to say it's going to be Mary Smith and Johnny Jones and who else is going to operate it, you know, we're just procrastinating on it. So that the Minister, I feel, should make that decisi on.

The re are capable people of di fferent schools, this is true, but they should be gathered together and let them develop the consensus, not necessa rily the departmental staff, because regardless of who is put together they will have to go through that exercise, and to try to get the board together after a physical plant exists, you are putting them in a nigh on im possible position, I feel. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)( 1) - pass; 2.(e)(2) - pass - the Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Is the Child Guidance Clinic in this appropriation? MR. SHERMAN: The Child Guidance Clinic as such isn't in this appropriation, Mr.

Chairman, but in our staff complement for Psych iatric Services for Children, which has been 17 and is being expanded, or we are requesting expansion to 20 -1/ 2. The psychiatrists that are related to this operation are based at the Child Guidance Clinic and they provide services to othe r areas outside of Winnip eg, including The Pas, Thompson, Selkirk, Beausejour, Winkler and Portage la Prairie. MR. MILLER: All that is shown here insofar as the Child Guida nce Clinic is conc erned is tho se provincial employees, departmental employees, who may be housed or whose offices are at the Child Guida nce Clinic.

The y work out of the Child Guida nce Clinic, but there is no money here for the Child Guidance Clinic as such? MR. SHERMAN: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. MILLER: I am wondering, is there anywhere in these Estima tes where the moneys to help support the Child Guidance Clinic appears? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman. That comes under the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. MR. MILLER: Is the Winnipeg School Division still picking up the 95 percent of the cost for the operation of the Child Guidance Clinic? MR. SHER MAN: I don't kno w whether it is 95 percent, Mr. Chairman, but they are certainly picking up a substantial amount of it.

The Department of Education may provide some, but cert ainly the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 picks up most of it. MR. MIL LER: Mr. Chairman, I am wondering whether the time hasn't come, since the Minister indicated his concern about psychiatric services for children , that we have to look at the method of delivering services. Winnipeg School Division No. 1 took the lead in the early years because there was no other agency that would do it, and I commend them for setting up a Child Guidance Clinic.

But I am wondering whether the time hasn't come when we have to recognize, as the Min ister seems to recognize, the need for these services and that the province has to become more actively involved financially in supporting the Child Guidance Clinic, because the early identification is important and it is in the classroom that many of the problems are first noted. There is a limit to what the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 can do. The bulk of the students in Manitoba are in the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and certainly in Greater Winnipeg, and I know that they are hard-pressed to meet the demands on them.

Without throwing even more of a burden on Winnipeg, they are unable to meet the demands on the Child Guidance Clinic. There are waiting lists, you know, it's very cursory. So I am wondering whether the Minister has given consideration to recognizing the time has come that the Child Guida nce Clinic should really be a provincial thrus t, a provincial re sponsibil ity, accessible to all school divisions, but that it become one of the primary efforts of his department to deal with the whole problem of psychiatric services for children. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know what the boa rd and the admin istra tion of the Child Guid ance Clinic would say about that; I have a good idea what they would say about it. I think, as the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks knows, they are a pretty autonomy-minded, independent group . MR. MILLER: They'll take your dollars. MR. SHERMAN: They will take our dollars and in fact they have asked for some dollars, but they have not sug gested that they give up any of their autonomy, nor have we. The question that the honourable member raises is certa inly a timely one.

We have in fact had discussions very recently with the directors of the Child Guidance Clinic, in my office with one or two other Ministers who have mutual interests in the field, such as the Minister of Education. Certainly 1627 there have been no conclusions yet. The Child Guidance Clinic has asked for a different funding arrangement and they have certainly indicated to us that the y intend to continue to operate in the autonomous way, or their am bition would be to continue to operate in the autonomous way that they do. I am awaiting at the moment a report from my Director of Clinical Services, Dr.

John Eadie, on the whole future of the department, the suggested future thrust of the department in this field of psychiatric services to emotionally disturbed children. I can sug gest to the honourable memb er that my un ders tandin g of the concep t tha t has been developed by Dr. Eadie and his colleagues and that will be coming forward to me, calls for a new provincial initiative with a rather substantial amount of money and expenditure attached to it, that would be quite independent of the Child Guidance Clinic.

I don't whether I am answering the honourable member's questions or not, but he is suggesting we should be looking at taking over the Child Guidance Clinic. My reading of the proposals that are sort of shaping up in my depa rtment present qu ite a different future concept than that. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, when I said take over, I was really talking about the financial burden; I wasn't taking about a takeover of staff and putting them on the provincial payroll; just as, in talking about the children's psychiatric facility the Minister indicated a separate board would be created, in the sense a separate hospital being created. That will simply be funded under MHSC. A similar approach could be arrived at here.

The Child Guidance Clinic could still be, as it is now, admin istered through its own board and through Winnipeg School Division No. 1, but the funding is what I am concerned about, the fact that they have to again look to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for their major funding; whether it's not 95 percent, it's 90 percent, but we both know that it's very high. So I was really looking at that aspect of it. The Minister said, well, there are proposals coming forward which indicate a new and a separate thrust.

I would simply caution him that bureaucracies tend to protect their turfs and try to build new empires, and that I am not sure that the Minister would want to create two parallel and perhaps even competing services, that the ideal, of course, is to make it one thr ust without having the du plication, which otherwise develops and the cracks, you know, that fall between two chairs inevitably. He has answered my question, in that the Child Guidance Clinic has come forward, but so far there is no answer for them. MR. SHERMAN: Well, it's the same taxpayer, of course, Mr.

Chairman, and I suppose the Min ister of Health becomes a little defensive about these things and the Member for Seven Oaks was perhaps defensive himself when he was Min ister. I have to ask the question in all fairness, why should the Department of Health pick up the cost and simply transfer the paper responsibility from one department to another? You are not doing anything for any taxpayers, nor for any services in that respect, if we were to take on the responsibility that Education has in that area, simply a paper transfer.

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I don't care whether it's the Department of Health or the Department of Education; I don't care whose Estima tes it appears in. Basically what I am suggesting is that the Child Guidance Clinic, which has been operating for a number of years, has been a burden on Winnipeg taxpayers and it is high time that the province moved into that field, whether by taking over the Child Guidance Clinic if they want to, or the simpler way is simply to increase its financing and designating them as an agency.

You know, you have services to children; you have the Children's Aid Soci ety, which is an arm acting for government, it is an agency independent of the gove rnm ent, but acting for government, and yet you fund them. Simi larly, I say the Child Guidance Clinic should be funded, whether it is, as I say, done through this set of Estima tes or the other is, to me, immaterial. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $29,550,400 for Health - pass. 3.(a) (1) - the Member for St. Boniface. MR. DES JARDINS: Mr.

Chai rman, the Minis ter, according to the sheet that I have in front of me, appears to be asking for an increase of staff man years of four. The sheet that I have gives me 33 for 1980-81 and a request for 37 in 1981- 82, except that from last year's sheet, I have that 40 were approved. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the discrepancy is explained by the fact that the Hearing Centre staff were transferred out of the head office of Medical Public Health Services into regional field services, into the field staff. (I nterjection)- That would work out to seven, right. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister give us a breakdown of these 37 positions requested? MR. SHERMAN: Yes. Under Medical Admi nistration, that's the central office staff, there wilt be 16 if our Estima tes are approved; 16, comprised of 12 medical officers, 1 program analyst, and 3 admin istrative support staff. That's 16 under Medical Adminstration. Under Epidemiological services, 10; made up of 2 medical officers, 1 health specialist, 7 administrative support staff, for a total of 10.

Unde r Clini cal Services, a total of 5; 2 medical officers, 1 public health specialist, 1 medical records technician, 1 admin istrative support staff, for a total of 5. Under VD Control, a total of 6; 4 specialis ts, and 2 admin istrative support staff, for 6 unde r VD. So it's 16, 10, 5, and 6. MR. DESJARD INS : Where are the four new requested positions? MR.

SHERMAN: They are all under the Medical Admin istration component, in that component of 16; 3 medic al officer posit ions and 1 ind ustrial environmental health consultant, 3 medical officers of health and one we want to establish and put in place, an ind ustrial environmental health consultant. (I nterjection)- They were designed to contain the Honourable Member for Transcona, Mr. Chairman. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, where would we find the Public Healt h Nurses that work for the department?

Would that be under the Department of Community Services working in the field, and the next item Public Health Nursing Services, that's just the Directorate more or less that decides what can be done, right? MR. SHERMAN: That's right, that's the Directorate, and the Public Health Nurses in the field are under Regional Personal Services. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, at one time there was a - I think that has been transferred, and I ask the Minister to correct me if I am wrong or to tell me if I have this thing right - at one time there was a cert ain amount of mo ney given to the City of Winnipeg for taking care of some of the service they were giving in health under Public Health. That was then, I guess, transf erred to the Department of Finance, wasn't it, or Urban Affairs, in funding. Now I think there is a . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, comm ittee rise for Private Member's Hour. Comm ittee rise.

SUPPL V - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Ra disson): Com mittee come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 32 of the Main Estima tes. Resolution No. 39, Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, clause 4, Item (

b) Environmental Management Services, Item

(1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: I was wondering if we could have a descript ion of the co mpleme nt of departmental personnel in this particular branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. GARY FILMON (R iver Heights): Mr. Chairman, the total complement is 65.42 staff man years, made up of 38 in laboratory services, 21. 42 in environmental standards and studies, 4 in programs and legislation and 2 in management. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Mem ber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate when it is he expects to have the annual report for this particular department, ready for distribution? MR. FILMON: I expect about the end of April, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: lt's necessary to put on the record our dissatisfaction with the process as it stands now and tha t is that we have to review the entire Es timates, or it appears that we will have to review the entire Estimates of the department without the 1628

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 annual report being available to us and that makes our task that much more difficult, although it does make the Minister's task that much easier. The annual report as we have said in the past in this this particular

section of the Estimates, does provide us with a great deal of information, a great deal of det ail, upon which we can base a numb er of questions which would not arise otherwise and it is difficult to do as efficient and as effective a job as we would be able to do otherwise, without that report in our possession. So the record should be clear, that it is a disappointment; I don't want to impute any motives; I don't know if there were any motives other than that of just not being able to get the report ready in time, but the fact is it does put us at a disadvantage. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Min ister on a point of order. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, if I may just briefly respond to that. I think the member is yielding the floor to me, is he? Yes, thank you. The reason for this is that in the past there were two separate reports, one from Consumer and Corporate Affairs which was on an annual basis and the Environmental Management Division, which was on a fiscal year basis, and the member probably has a copy of the fiscal year report ending March 31 st, 1980, so he would see the following year has not been completed; we are now regularizing it to combine both onto the same year.

In fact the member already has the first three months of 1980 in the la st report covered , so that's why under that circumstance we're now going to have an annual report for the total depart ment, including both sections on the same year basis and it will be available at about the end of April. MR. COWAN: I accept the Minister's explanation. I think the record as well should be clear tha t immed iately after having completed our review of the Public Utilities Board, it's my understanding that we got the Public Utilities Board report, after having passed that particular item of the Estimates.

That was perhaps a coincidence, perhaps it was more than a coincidence, I don't know, but I do want the Minister to know that it puts us at a disadvantage when we have to go through his Estimates without his annual report and I think he accepts that. MR. FILMON: There's no question about that and I appreciate the fact. In fact that report on the Public Utilities Board has been at the Queen's Printer for some time, Mr. Chairman, and there was only an original report that was tabled with the Clerk so I wasn't able to do anything more with it and hopefully that information will be of interest.

I' ve ende avoured to brin g forward wha tever information has been requested by the other side and if there is anything that I haven't covered, I'll be glad to bring it forward. MR. COWAN: While speaking to information, is the Minister prepared to table the list of environmental acc idents which have occurr ed since the last discussion of the environment Estima tes last year? MR. FILMON: Yes, that report is in the process· of being prepared. I would expect that I could table that information in 10 days to two weeks, Mr. Chairman. 1629 MR.

COWAN: Can the Minister be more specific as to what stage that report is in now, in respect to its preparation? MR. FILMON: A rough draft form, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister be prepared to xerox a copy of the rough draft form and provide it to us on the understanding that it is accepted as a rough draft form and not a finished copy? MR. FILMON: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: Well again, Mr. Chair person, it's di ffic ult to di scuss what has happened in the province over the last year in respect to envi ronmental acci dents, without having the information avai lable to us.

There is one other alternative. Perhaps the Minister is willing to read out the figures that are contained within that report so that we can at least have the statistical data before us. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, it's being prepared in my department - I have not even the rough draft - it's somewhere in the department so I don't have that information as yet and until it gets into a form where it's been checked for accuracy and reviewed, I don't think that I can even give any figures. MR. COWAN: it's my understanding that monthly reports are made to the Min ister in respect to environm ental accidents.

Is the Minister prepared to tabl e tho se monthly reports that have been presented to him, which would in fact be an ongoing analysis and an ongoing statistical review of the environmental accidents? MR. FILMON: The reports in the form that they are available within the department, name companies who voluntarily provide us with information about things that happen on their own property and so on. Because we want to encourage this contin ued voluntary disclosure, I don't think we'd want to give that kind of information out for publication other than in a

summary form which we intend to do, as I said, in the report that will be tabled. MR. COWAN: Here we have another example, Mr. Chairperson, of this Minister being less open with that type of information than the previous Minister and the Hansard is very clear in respect to our request last year for that monthly bulletin to be provided to persons who were interested in the area. But one thing that the Minister has said leaves me somewhat perplexed, that is in respect to voluntary disclosure.

Is the Minister saying that there is a discretionary power on the part of those individuals and industry which have had environmental spills, which would prevent them, or which would allow them not to report those spills to the department? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, as things stand those spills of course and accidents are certainly not provided for under the Act and it's illegal, but at the same time we're aware that if we were to publish the names then it might di scourage people from voluntarily bringing them to our attention and putting us in a position to correct the situation.

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. COWAN: What action does the Minister take to correct the situation when that information is voluntarily provided to him? Can he give an example of several different scenarios in respect to how that information is provided to his department and what his department does in response to that information being provided to them? MR.

FILMON: Basically when it's reported, the situation is assessed by one of our Environmental Officers and a recommended manner of dealing with and cleaning up whatever accident occurred is put forth to the company and ensured that it's carried out, and that could hold true of a spill or anything of that nature. MR.

COWAN: Perhaps the Min ister can provide some information as to the legislation as it exists today, and that's the new legislation which was brought forward in the amendments to The Clean Environrnent Act, which were brought forward by his gover nment and the previous Min ister in tha t particular department. Does it not make it mandatory that all spills be disclosed to the government? MR. FILMON: The Act provides for regulations to be enacted that would require mandatory reporting of all spills, Mr. Chairman. MR. CO WAN: Ha ve those re gulations been implemented? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, currently regulations have been enacted for gasoline and associated products. The definition of othe r types of environmental accidents is currently being worked on for regulation that will be enacted I would say, very shortly. MR. COWAN: Are PCBs, polychlorinated biphenyls included in those regulations? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chair man, PCBs are name d hazardous material and we have the authority to act on them right now. MR. COWAN: By the Min ister indicating that the department has the authority, is he saying that any spill of a PCB substance must in fact be reported to the department? MR.

FILMON: The named hazardous product the Minister, when made aware of even its existenc e, can make a determination of what should be done with it. But the regulations will be drafted to include it and all other potentially hazardous materials with respect to accident reporting. MR. COWAN: What substance has to be reported to the Minister now if there is an environmental accident, or what list of su bstances have to be report ed, given the legislation and gi ven the regulations as they are at present? MR. FILMON: Gasoline and petroleum products, Mr. Chairman. MR.

COWAN: Can the Minister indicate how many spills last year of gasoline and petroleum products were voluntarily reported to the department? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, that would be part of the information that we can provide in the sum mary. MR.

COWAN: lt appears as if the Min ister has come fairly unprepared to these Estimates, perhaps it would have been better to have had them later in the year when he could have been more acquainted with his department; when he could have had more opportunity to put together the type of programs that he assures us are going to be put together; and when he could have had some information which was of a public nature and a readily accessible nature that could be provided to the Opposition.

I'm not saying that that was the intention of the government to put us at that disadvantage but, I am saying that they certainly have put us at that disadvantage by bringing these Estimates forward now, and it was their choice, at a time when they know they can't provide the information that is going to be requested during the Estima tes Debate. We requested this information last year; we've requested it in years previous.

If they have any anticipatory powers you would expect that they could at least anticipate that the questions of a similar nature being ongoing questions, would come forward this year and they don't have the information for us. I'm not certain whether they're trying to throw us off track or I'm not certain that they'v e jus t been inefficient in getting that information before us, but I do find that a very disagreeable situation when we have to ask questions and be told that we won't get answers until a couple of months down the road.

The Minister indicated that they had done a survey on polychlorina ted biphenyls. Can the Min ister indicate how much PCBs are being stored currently by Manitoba Hydro and by Winnipeg Hydro, and in what locations they are being stored? MR. FILMON: Mr. Cha irman, as I said before, approximately 100,000 litres of the total of 232,000 litres of PCB reported in Manitoba is located in Manitoba Hydro converter stations. MR.

COWAN: Is it located in the equipment which is currently being used in Manitoba Hydro converter stations, or is it located in 45 gallon drums which are being stored in Manitoba Hydro converter stations? Can the Minister be more specific as to the form in which that substance is being either used or stored at the present time? MR. FILMON: The equipment, and in drums, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: How much of the substance is being stored in equ ipment, or is currently in use in equipm ent, and how much of the subs tance is currently being stored in 45 gallon drums? MR. FILMON: We don't have a breakdown, Mr. Chairman.

MR. COWAN: Is there storage of polychlorinated biphenyls in the City of Winnipeg in 45 gallon drums to the Minister's or to the Department's knowledge? MR. FILMON: We, to get that specific information, Mr. Chairman, would have to cont act Manitoba Hydro. 1630

Thursday, 12 March, 1981 MR. COWAN: Is the Minister indicating that his Department does not keep de tails on how polychlorinated biphenyls are being stored in the province; as to where they are being stored and in what form the y are being stored, after all the information he provided to us, and all the expectations he created with his remarks about the survey that his department is doing?

Is he indicating that they have done this survey, they have gotten a 10 percent response rate which is hardly one to be specifically boastful about, however it's better than nothing, as the Minister had indicated, and yet they don't know where it's being stored, and how it's being stored? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, that information is available and obviously probably a very thick file, and it isn't available in the

summary sheet which I have brought to the Estima tes. As I am sure the member can appreciate, if I were to bring down all the departmental files on every topic that might possibly be addressed, I would have to bring a truck into this room. I am not sure exactly what information we can make available immed iately. Perhaps he could give us a list of all the various types of information he is looking for and we can ascertain what is available and what isn't. MR.

COWAN: The record should show that we had indicated to the Minister that we would be discussing certain subjects under this particular area, so I'm not certain whether that was one of the ones which we indicated. lt may not have been, because we were discussing it the other day, and one could assume from that, or perhaps it's not an assumption that we could expect them to make nor should expect them to make, that would be discussed again. But what the Minister said was that he could not tell us how or where those PCBs are being stored and he would have to check with Manitoba Hydro. I heard that explicitly.

Is he now telling us that information is available in the departmental files? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, we have a

summary in our files. We wou ld have to dou ble check with Manitoba Hydro to see whethe r or not it has changed since the point in time of inventory, in which they gave the information to us and I suppose whether or not they want it to be released publicly. All of those things would have to be double-checked. They could move a storage container from one location or remove it or place it into a piece of equipment or whatever and we would have to double check and see that every thing that we know is correct according to our files. MR.

COWAN: This whole area becomes more and more confusing as we get deeper into this. Is the Min ister now saying that they have sent out survey forms to find out where PCBs were being stored; to find out how they were being stored; to find out where they are being used; and they developed no mechanism to keep track of those locations and those uses once they found out where they were originally being used. Becau se, if I hear him correctly, what he is saying is we sent this survey form out; we got back a 10 percent response rate; a lot of it came from Manitoba and Winnipeg Hydro. 1631 But since that time w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-36a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 36a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	94e9e1dba7310515ccb04c78da8bec51cc8edb34

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