• • • • e • • •e • • • VOL.J PRELTIIINARY UNEniTEn 1'RA.."SCRIPT HOl!SE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:no p.rn: TtTEST'AY, JUNE 13, 1978

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4305, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair • MR •. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN : 000 Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct the House's attention to .the fact that yesterday· a very distinguished Newfoundland public servant in the · person of Mr. Malcolm Mercer died.

He , served for many; .many years with the Conunission of Government in the Department of Customs, subsequently joined Canada Customs in Newfoundland and then was promoted in. his latter years to a very senior position outside.the Province • The late Mr. Mercer was a native of Upper Island Cove. Hon. gentlemen will recall that his son, Mr. Keith Mercer, served for several years as Law Clerk of this· House and presently is Assi·stant Deputy Minister of Justice. I am sure hon. gentlemen would wish to join with me in extending our· condolences· to the widow and family of the late Malcolm Mercer. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY.: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House join with the Government House Leader and· the members on the government side in extending-our deep sympathy and sincere condolences to the family of the late Malcolm Mercer, especially the_ gentleman who sa·t in this House with us for a short while. I believe he is now Assistant Deputy'Minister in the minister•s·department, the Minister of Justice. We would also, Sir, like to extend our deepest sympathy to the ·family of the late Mr. Mercer; 9986

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4305, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: STATEMENTS' BY MINISTERS The han. Minister of Forestry Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to announce today in conjunction with the Honourable Marcel Lessard, Federal Minister of Regional .Economic Expansion, a one ·year extension to the Canada/Newfoundland. Subsidiary Agreement of Forestry; an extension until March: 31, 1979. This extension to the original five-year agr.eement will permit the expenditure of approximately $8.4 million in this fiscal year under the joint agreement.

This amount represents the balance of $54.9 million that was agreed to be spent by both governments on the development of the ·Province •·s forest resources. All programmes under the agreement,with the exception of the land acquisition project, are cost-shared 90 per cent by the federal government .and 10 per cent by the provincial government. The land acquisition programme involved the purchase of some 500,000 acres of underutilized freehold land and was cost-shared S0/50 by. the federal government and the Pr.ovince •.

The remaining.funds which have been allocated by the Federal/Provincial Management Committee of the Forest Subsidiary Agreement will cover expenditures·in the following programmes: Forest Management $90,0001 Harvesting and utilization techniques $449,0001 Access roads $3,052,0001 Forest inventory $831,0001- Forest protection $550;000; Forest improvement $1,505,.0001 Administration $1.9 million for a total of $8,431,000.

In. forest management the· bulk of expt:mdi ture will be on the area of Management Plans and Survey's where temporary personnel will be hired to carry out timber cruises in order to' better define the timber volume to be 9987

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978., Tape 4305, Page 3 -- apb MR. MAYNARD:- cut in order to maximize utilization. In addition regeneration surveys will be carried out. In the area of Wood Harvesting and Utilization; the. programme of trials for removal of timber from sttep slopes using cable logging technology will continue. The objective of the programme is to adapt this logging technology in Newfoundland conditions • 9988 , ..

• • • • e • • • • • • .:'une 13, 1978 Tape :lo. 4306 There ~1ill be t~-10 machines used ~;hiC:, are described in the s t;ttement. Cre1~s to u!?e the machines ~dll be trair.ed in ~!ay·-or have been trained in 'f~y. O!)eratior.~ are expected to start this month and a forestry engineer has been assigned to each machine. r.~e ~rogr~e of integrated lop,ging •·rill be continued this year.

The objective of t!tis rrogra~e is to more fully utilize the forest resource by ensuring that the l::.rger trees are used for sat-1logs :md smaller for I'ulpwood production. ·This programme Pill increase the level of forpst utilization and the availab:tli ty of sa1-rlo~s to the sa1·11!1illin~ industry but at the same time ensurint' the continued econ~mic sunply of pulpwood to the pul? and paper indust~:. Studies are also ~lanued to dcte~ine t~1c o~ti:nur. size for Sa\-Jlllills in the Provi~ce, .ns ~-:ell as to exarilin3 :aar!·:.e ting problens and potentials for the sal£illers.

Studies on improving .th·~ sa¥;r..ill desi,;ns to suit t~·~ local conditions ·.~ill also be continued. wh.ic~1 -~s coucerr~.ed with t~e utilization of t~e er~.t:.:-e tree above t:~e stur.-.p, •;ill be ce.rried out to establis;-, ti:c costs anc productivity levels and to dete~i::e t~U! use of chips ~rcduc~d ·~y t~~is method.

Th.e trials cluring l9i2.-7? ~-,:..ll te co:tductzci cr .. co~verti:1g the llarciHooL ·i::\tn chips t:::1i.c!: \·.:-t:l ~c uszd to ~roduce enerr,y to replace inported oil for staa" ,;e:1erntion i~to pulp and ;:>apcr indust=y. -::-.e sar,::'! cc:-.ce;:: t ca..~ be! e~::e:lC.ed for usi11r; the :1ard-:•iOod ar.d 3o.ft".vooU ::hole tree chips as ra~-7 material for t~1e r::a:1ufwcture of pulp and pe.per. ~::ill co:1t:.!:ue i:1 orCcr ~o provide access i:1to ti~ber resourc~s 9989

I J~:::e 13, 1978 Tape :~o. 4306 as Hell as providing access i::~to some • of ~:1e currently remote ti~.ber stands in localiti<!S renoved fro':!'. areas in need of salvage but 1.;hich require access to ti:l:bcr. T:1is year's ~10rk t·iill cons is:: of ::1e oocpletion of 32 projects started previously, tl;e • co=enoenent and completion cf 13 new ro:?.d proj ccts as ~{ell as a major effort to upgrade or replace appro:cir..ately t•,uonty bridges to bring them up to hea"'' industrial or commercial traffic standards.

Most of t!1e ne~.; road projects Hill be • in the Clarenville, Lewisporte, Ba,ie Verte, !iort!'lern Peni;:;sula· areas of :::1e Province. These ne~" projects 1-1ill total sotte 28 niles of road construction. Under forest inventory, the funding • ,.:ill p.ermit the continuation of t:1e l:<.nagement Inventory progra=e. Nine thousand line· ldlometers of colour aerial photography of \-/estern ;md Central :lewfoundland '"ill be acquired during 1978 for. tc1e appraisal of timber stands. In addition, 3, 000 line • 'kilometers of special ir.frared photo3rapl:y· '·!ill ::e flmm for assessing bucborm killed timber.

During the commi::~g Su!llr.\cr field surveys '"ill be carried out in Central l'e;,;fcunciland to collect field date>. and to assist i:1 the preparing of forest type maps. In collaboration •e ;;i th the pulp and paper indus t:::y, a start ':·Till le. made on the establishment of a· net~·JOrk of per!:!anen~ sa;;1ple plot!" to ::1onitor :.r.:e gro":vth on a Provir:.ce-':·,.:.C::e basi:;. In Forest Protection, funds h:we been • rrovided to complei:e thP. purchase of t;le Province's seven::h toater- i;onbcr.

ProVi3ion ls also made to cocplete the installation of the islar:d-•Tide iTHF radio telephone systea for forest fire protec<::.n:-1 ar-.d su!'pression. This t~ill give ad~quate comnur:.icc>.t:!.o:1 to ::11 • productive forest areas. I:1 Lrtbrador, the pro~rar:rrne t.:ill r'rovitie a;:-, airc::-aft for :>.erial sun•eilla•1ce for f:lrest fire c:\etectio;::. ···hicil ~-:ill t;i~;e adequate ~rotecti~r:. ':o that, ~art of t~1e Province . • 9990

• • • • e • • •e • • • June 13., 1978 Tc!'e :'-To. 43(Hi In addition to effo~ts i~ Forest Protection, bere t·rill be significant effort made toParcs :~e !'rot,le:n created by major insect anc! disease pes:s of the forest. I::1 particular, funds ;-rill be available to enable the Province to keep constant liaison ;;ith the Canadian Forestr; Service and the forest industry to monitor outbr'eak:;, ;\Ssess tree conditions and damage.

This !~formation •.d_ll then be used to develop laree scale salvage programmes ?nc! ?lans f~r major control strategies • In the area of forest improvement, se,reral activi:ies lnll be undertaken and th<>se incl:Ide.: Reforestation, Pre-commercial Thinning, Site 'Rt~clamation, Christmas T!"ee nemonstration Trials and Control Burnin~ • $575,000 has been allocated to the Reforestation ~rog!'a::une .1.r.. ·~ i ·3-! 79. !:>urin;:; this period~ =..evelopment of tc-:e ,.:ooddale cbrsery ''ill be largely completed and 3.dditional land areas "Will be cleara.i for grmdr,g se:ec!li:-.gs. · t.t p;:eser.t, ~:1er~ are approximai.:ely 10 w.illi.on tr·ee s.:e~:l:L.i1~s ;;:.t ~·iocC.:iale: t>~i t~1 3 !rillio;J. scheduled for outplanting ~uring the 193: :ie:ld sea:::on.

The :!aunt ?earl Green::ouse :-;ursery is scheduled to­ produce, approximately 250, :JOO c:mtai~e!" tr.:e s2edlings tl1is yea;:, 9991

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978., Tape 4307, Page 1 -- apb MR. MAYNARD: while a smaller size greenhouse nursery will be completed at Goose Bay. In addition, two pieces of scarification equipment will be tested at various. locations· throughout the Province. The precommercial thinning programme that began in 197l.will be continued and expanded in 1978. This programme is aimed at reducing the number of trees per hectare so as to increase the growth rate·on the remaining better quality trees. Approximately 3,200 hectares will be treated in this manner and the total cost of the programme is $600,000.

The Site Reclamation programme was designed to bring back into ·production those areas currently occupied by undesirable or non-merchantable trees will be continued. Approximately 243 hectares will be made ready for planting ·in 1978-79 for a total cost of $300,000. A project to demonstrate the feasibility of producing good quality Christmas trees from young balsam fir stands will be concluded this year. In addition, trials will be conducted to assess the practicality of using Controlled Burning to reduce the slash content on cutovers to facilitate planting. The total cost of these projects is $8,500.

Both of us, the hon. Mr. Lessard and myself,were very pleased. to be·able to announce the extension· to this ag.reement and· I would say; Mr. Speaker, in conclusion,. that we are already into very active negotiations for a second five-year forestry agreement which hopefully will be able to conclude by the time that this extension runs out in 1979. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Buchans·. MR. FLIGHT: The hon. the member for Windsor - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaking on behalf of Her Majesty.' s Opposition, we on this side. certainly welcome the statement made by the minister. 9992

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4307, Page 2 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: It points out again, Of course, the dependency we have on Ottawa, $8 million, ninety to ten. MR. NEARY: It is a joint statement made by·the·minister. MR. FLIGHT: .It is a joint statement and, of course, the minister is defending and bragging about the 10 per cent that the Province put into this $8 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, I suspect that Ottawa puts in the money but the provincial Department of Forestry. decides how they are going to spend it. I am going to take a second, ·if I may, to whip through this, Mr. Speaker.

I have noticed that in forest management - I do not know if the minister can answer or not but I am wondering if any of the funds designated·for forest management under this programme, this $8 million programme, is going to be spend on Price limits.or Bowater limits?

I am wondering if in the theory of putting all saw-log materials to sawmills as.opposed to going to the mills, if this province has started discussions with Price (Nfld.) ·and Bowaters for that kind of a programme, a programme that would see all our saw-log materials go to the mills, lumber mills and the surplus, which would be more than the paper companies would require anyway., the surplus going to the pulp ·mills? It has been talked about long enough, Mr. Speaker.

Most of the sawmills in Newfoundland today are .down, shut down, and the reason. they are shut down, there is no other-reason in the world except the timber is not available to sustain their operations and Price (Nfld.) and Bowaters refuse to allow them access to their timber limits. And until the minister takes a position on that with Price (Nfld.) and Bowaters, that they will indeed relinquish limits to support our sawmills, then he can spend all the money he wants coming from Ottawa and he will 9993

• • • • • • • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4307, Page 3 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: not solve the problems of the sawmill industry in this Province • There is some reference to ~he fact, Mr. Speaker, that the papermill companies are now talking about, and thi~ may be .a new theory, talking about using hardwoods for steam generation. In other words,. oil is getting so e·xpensive they are looking at generating steam and providing all. their heating requirements with hardwood.

Well, let me .ask, why do they not do it with softwood? .Why do they not go into the stands that are dead.now, moribund or dead,.the five or six million cords we are talking about, and salvage that and use it - we may find a market two years down the road for our hardwoods - it is dead anyway, it is on / their limits, why do· they not burn that instead of cutting our hardwoods and using it for steam generation? It is a possibility if they are so interested in salvaging the budworm killed timber • The access roads, Mr. speaker.

I would like, and there is another situation with access roads, most access'-roads built on company limits the . contract goes normally to the paper companies, why.is that? Any access roa.ds built by a contractor in this Province creates jobs, access roads built by the paper companies on their limits do not create a new job. I am not convinced. that they are subject to any type 9994

• • • • e • • •e -· • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4308 GH-1 MR. FLIGHT: I am not convinced that they are subject to a type of inspection. The only people who abuse the roads anyway are the paper companies that are building them, and I am not too sure, Sir, Price (Nfld.) or Bowaters do not bid, on. the Trans-Canada Highway. He will not e:et any bids from Price or Bowaters on the Bonavista Loop Road or the Great Northern ·Peninsula Road or the T·rans-Canada,so why should we accept bids from them on forest access roads? And, Mr. Speaker, we are building ·access roads.

We built access roads last year and there is no indication that the access roads we built last year are going to be used for the purpose of salvaging timber or harvesting timber this year. So, Mr. Speaker, on this.' forest access road situation, .I .think the whole ·area needs to be taken a look at. Price (Nfld.) loves to brag about the fact that the Province has never funded access roads. Well, we started funding them on Price limits last year, and there is no evidence at this stage that that road we funded to the tune of three or four million dollars is going to be used for the purpose of cutting this year.

It may indeed, but there is no evidence right now it will be, and that presumably was a ·road built to salvage budworm infested: Now, Mr. Speaker, $54 million have been spent under this agreement, so that means that Ottawa funded about $48 million over the past four ye~rs. We knew about the budworm problem in this Province. In 1971 the infestation became very apparent. The signs were there that we would be in for an ·~pidemic. One could wonder what would have happened if the hon.

Minister of Forestry had decided that I am going to use the bulk of that $54 million - never mind the administration, never the mind the 'Christmas tree special~ never mind experimenting with cutting timber off of slopes. Price and Bowaters in this Province have been cutting for fifty years and they have not worried about salvaging the timber on the various slopes. If it is not economical to cut, they are not going to cut it.

And the minister can bring in what forestry equipment he wants and run tests· on cutting timber on slopes of rivers or on steep··land~ if it is not economic for Price or Bowaters, they are not going to take advantage of it anyway. So, I do not know ~~hat purpose it really serves unless. the minister can stand up and that he has got a commitment from Price or Bowaters that they will use 9995 /

• ·- • • • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4308 CH-2 MR. FLICHT: ------ that equipment if the government proves it is a good investment. Right now the Newfoundland government is too free with the easily accessible timber with Bowaters and Price for Bowaters and Price to even be concerned about getting into the timber that is far removed from the mills or that is in any way inaccessible. They will never go in Lloyd's River, Lloyd's River valley; those kind of areas.

Price· (Nfld.) is not going to go in and cut that wood while we are prepared to let them keep the choice limits in this Province; so -that ·could well ·be a waste of money unless the minister is prepared to tell us that Price (Nfld.) and Bowaters have agreed to use that kind of logging equipment if it pans out. So, Mr.

Speaker, given the state that our forests are in right now, given the total,absolute lack ·of forest management being practised on Bowater and Price limits, some of the programs listed in this that have been approved by Provincial Government. is a waste of money and is not recognized in the priorities. Better to have taken the _whole $54 million on recognizing that we were about to be faced with the kind of a problem we got right and now and to have spent it in preparing our forests and protecting our· forests against the kind of budworm infestation, the kind of an ep_idemic we are facing right now. So, Mr.

Speaker, one can go on and on. I notice that some of the $8 million will be spent on funding of a water bomber. I wonder was Ottawa aware of the kind of shenanigans that went on with the purchase of that water bomber? There is an old saying in Newfoundland:'Whoever pays the fiddler, calls the tune: AN RON • MEMBER: - Agreed that they pay 90 per cent . 11R. FLIGHT: Yes·, but I wonder have they been aware up to now about the shenanigans that went on in buying it. Maybe someone needs. Mr.

Speaker, maybe someone needs to make Ottawa aware of the way their money is being·handled in the purchasing of water bombers and that kind of thing. They may have been able to save themselves half a million dollars, and that with another half a million dollars we would have had to build access roads or kill some budworms. Now, Mr. Speaker, in forest 9996

• June 13, 1978 Tape 4308 GH-3 MR. FLIGHT: improvement - here is a direct question for the • ' minister. It says "In the area of forest improvements, several activities will be undertaken and these include: reforestation, pre-:-commercial . thinning, site reclamati'ori- and never mind the Christmas tree demonstration, that is just .Junks and controll~d burning. Will any of that activity take • place on Price and Bowaters limits? • • • •e • • • 9997 •

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4309 EC - 1 ;.tR. FLIGHT: That is the only question, !lr. Speaker, that· is irnportant to the forestry in this Province, because if this is going to take place on Crown limits, forget.it. Most of the sawmills that are shut down, certainly in cy area of Newfoundland, are shut down b~cau~e there is not enough timber to sustain their operation: In other 1-1ords~ we have cut outselves out. The Crown land limits around the Central ~ewfoundland area been cut over, the cut is in, there are no logs left.

So what is the point of talking about forest ~anagement, thinning, reforestation, site reclamation, on Crown lands in this Province when the bulk of the timber producing area of Newfoundland is either in one way or the other owned by Price (Nfld.) and cont~olled either by freehold grant, by licence or by timber limits? MR. SPEAKER: . Order, please! I must point out to the bon. 3entleman that if our procedures under Ministerial Statements are to remain clear and nbt become a~biguous or clouded, one of the requirements is brevity, and that an bon. member replying may make brief comments.

I am certainly not going to define 'brief'. The sensible approach there is that it has to be in comparison with the length of the statement. I usually understood that to be that the reply should certainly not exceed half the length of the statement - certainly should not exceed the length of the statement. We are now at the point where it equals the length of the statement. So I think certainly it should be less long than the statement to which it is a reply . i-!R. FLIGHT: Thank you, llr. Speaker, I will wind up very quickly now.

What I have said has been said Manys a time. jy problem is that we are having a bard time getting through to the minister . 9998

• • • • • • • • • • June 13, 19i8 Tape 4309 EC - 2 HR. FLIGHT: And maybe Ottawa in funding these projects 90/10 should have a little more to say since it is obvious, Mr. Speaker, in view of the mess the forests are in in this Pro~ince, that Ui to this point we have done nothin'g only dance to the jig of the paper companies. There is absolutely a total lack of forest management. totally and absolutely on the paper companies• limits. All the t'imber in Newfoundland that we are talking about is on their limits, so spending $54 million in the.last five years should have been directed to corr.ect·ing ti1at situation.

Artd in responding to the minister I would suggest to him that the next ~greement he signs with Ottawa for monies to be spent on the forestry, that the problem that we are talking about, the problem on the paper companies' limits, the problem that we have to spend our money in the way that will improve and protect the forestry of this Province, because up to now it has not been done. We are grateful for the $8 million, Mr. Speaker, and we would hope that the ~ini~ter would use a little more discretion in the way he spends ihe next $8 million. SO~E HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! l·IR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees.· AN HON. "HEl·IBER: ~To. MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. gentleman have leave to revert to petitions? Agreed! PRESENTTNr. PETITIONS ~R. FLIGHT: Mr.· Speaker, I rise, Sir, to present a petition, probably one of the biggest petitions pressnted in this session in the House of Assembly, and it is in connection with the spray programme. It is a petition that comes from the Gander area, and although it was on very short notice, I want to tell the House that I did notify t~e member for Gander, the hon. ~inister, that I was 9999

I June 13, 1978 Tape 4309 EC - 3 :!R. FLIGHT: going to present a petition. • And, !!r. Speaker, I t.•ill read the prayer of the petition. It says -and this petition, by the way, is signed by 3,400 plus peo~le - AN HON. :·IE:·!BER: Hotv many? • MR.

FLIGHT: - 3,400 plus - "Because the spray programme will not. wipe out the spruce budworm and there is evidence that the budworm will be contr~lled by natural Qeans, and there is a lack of research on the environment • and health effects of the chemical, matacil, that is being used, we, the very concerned citizens of ~ewfoundland, urge the government to reconsider its decision to spray the spruce budworm with matacil until more research has been • done concerning the effects on .human health." Now, Mr.

Speaker, in rising to ~able this petition and to support it, it has become very clear now, the issue of the budworrn in the Province is broken into • two areas; one is the concern whether or not spraying will indeed have an adverse effect oti the budworm, whether indeed it will do anything to countei the infe~tation and protect our forests. And we only have again, as has been said so •e often, to look at other provinces that have hac a s~ray programme for twenty-five years and they are worse off now than when they started. So that is one area. But then there is another ~r~a, and probably a more important one.

People • are becoming afraid of the long-term o~ short-term effect that the chemical, matacil, will have on theit well-being and on their health. And every day, Mr. Speaker, there are things being publicized, new facts are comi~g out that add • to that concern . And I would think the basis of this particular petition, 3r. Speaker, is that particular fear. I . I cannot understand the 3overnment being so adamant . • 1.0G00

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1~78 Tape ~o. 4310 1~. F1..IGHT They have decided to spray t~ater supplies. There is no ~~ay, !!r. Speaker, and the Clinister knows it; that you can spray 'dthin two miles of Gander Lake and not have so~e of the spray under drift situations land in Gander Lake or on tolm \lf Gander itself. I do not understand, if a spray prop.ramme is absolutely and totally necessary, VThy it is they are so headstrong and ad2.mant and ~1iil not ccncede to res\)onsible requests t:..at, ''You do not spray our tm-ms and you do not spray our <Jater systems." Jl.nc!., 1!r.

Speaker, this is the basis of this parti·cular petition. .1\nother fear is co:nir:g in here, 7•lr. :;'peaker, and t!1at great statement that t!le minister just gave is a fear t!lat ~~e are going to spray this year; the!'e is no evidence that the r.overnment is looking at 'm;•thing else other than a S)r.:::y prograrnr.te. '·1e may 'Gecone de_-e~ndane··on a spray programme. There is no evidence that they are going to insti:ute forest management programmes or things that tvill allow Xewfou."1dland to withdraw from t!-:e spray programme.

There is a '!ery _great danger that the paper companies and the ·('.overnment Hill see spraying as a panacea and will go on. If the Gover.lment is in a position next year to say that the egg count is dm-m, whether it goes dot-m naturally or as a result of the spray programme they ~Till claim success and t<e coulc!.. go nn into another spray programme ,and another spray prograr.tl!le ,. and loc!:ed in, and become dependent upon a ~pray programme. c-:r. Speaker, it is a fact and it cannot l:e denied, the directions on the can - Listen to this and tvoultl it not frighten you to death, l'r.

Speaker?- "Do not breathe •: the directions on the can at Gander Airport, "Do not oreat':le vapours or spray mist. Keep·all unprotected persons out of the operatinR area or :;here there is any danger of drift.'' :-:ot;, !.'r. Speaker, you cannot S?r-•.y­ in this P!'ovince '·1it~.ir- t:I·To or. three miles of a tot-Tn and ?e sure there are not people unprotecterl in that areo.. He are spraying Hith a c':enical He \nov;· nothing of. \·ie ti'ill all l:not-7 t:lvo or three years from no1-1. '-!e t.OOOt.

• • • • e • • •e • • • June 13, f97B '::ape :co. 431C 1'.!-2 are being guinea pigs. The people of '!ewfoundland cannot understand that and they are going to petition t:!le Government by the thousands to stop that spray ~rogra~me or, select a chemica:!. that at least 11e knm<~ of the danz<"rs that lie in wdng it. ~:r.

S:>t'.ake::-, time is running out and I implore Governnent to consider ·some of the prayers of t!~e petition:, some oi the t-Tishes of the people of N~lvfoundland: By way of the people who signed this petition -1Ms is very int~resting to note Glenwood is totally, a!l the minister knows, dependent on the (o_restry of this Province, and the only people in GlenvTOod tvho refused to sign that petition Here company management people, the only people. •;~ho refused to sign the petition . $o, Hr. Speaker, my tim.e has run out.

I support the prayer of the petition and lay it on the table to the minister to whom it relates. ;.;p_. SPEAI:F.R: !!!t. ~lEARY: Ron. member for LaPoile. 1·lr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the.;_Jetition so ably presented by my colleague, our spokesl'lan on Forestry and Agriculture,_Sir, on behalf of 3,400 cons~ituents in the Community of Gander and sui:rounrling area. I congratulate the·hon. gentler.:an, Sir, for bringing the ~etition before the House. This is t!;.e crucial Heel:, ~ .. r. Speal~.er, as far as the spray programme is concerned.

As soon as the minister gets favoural:lle Peather conditions, tve understand that· the poisonous chemical, 1~.at:acil, "'ill be squirted around various part so ,,f t!le Province, and the minister sa:'s that his political life is on the line. ::ell, Sir •. I ••ould rat iter go to 1:-at for the lives of 525, ')I)() :.Jewfoundlanders than I ;;ould for the hon. gentleman's political life. I tvoul:-l say to that, "Hov,;ash'' and ''So 1vha t? '' :.;r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has been !:'a.!·:ing a :10002

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1~7D Tape ~Jo. 4310 ~~T-3 r.ontracl.ictory statement l~herever he roes in t:;:.s Province saying t~at they 1Vill not spray •;;her. the lvind is over five miles an hour, and the peo::>le '·?ho are rloinp. the spraying sav an:.l'f-There from four to tllelve miles an hour. And .

I want to dra<l to the attention of the l'inister of Justice that l:is colleague, the :-'inis ter of Forestry and Agriculture,is breaking the Provincial Pesticide r.ontrol Act, and the r..inister should rlo :>ot1ething about it, t~.at states thilt e•mry !1erson Hho keeps,stores or transports a pesticirl.e, or herbicide, shall .:'o so in a manner t!1at ensures that tl{e special precautions, or ••arnings; on t!-le label of il pestic_ide, or a !-lerbicict.e, :'ac!~age, 1->hich is marked 'poison' , or 1-1ith the synbol of the sbtll and crossbones, con:ply uith t!-.eir o;-r.1 la.'.·-''!3 and rublish t:~e .t-1.:ir:1i:1~S in full.

And here, ~~r .. £pcal:er, on tl~at barrel is a s!·.ull and crossbones, and this is a ::erox copy of the lat>el that I have in my hand, a skull and cr_?ssbones, ::iarked, 'Danger and that is co::trary 1.0003 Poison'

• • • • • • • • • June 13 ~ 1978 Tape 4311 GH-1 MR. NEARY: to the new provincial Pesticide Control Act, unless the Minister advises every citizen of this Province to dangers of that chemical and the dangers of some of them were just outlined by my hon. colleague there. The dangers are harmful if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin,. do not get in eyes, on skin or in clothing, do not breath vapous or spray mist. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman tells us that there is no danger· .involved in matacn, and this is taken right off the barrel and a xeroxed 'copy of the label on the barrel - the warning being put out by the chemical company.- do not get in eyes; if spilled on skin, wash immediately with soap and warm water. Well, if you are out in the country, if your kids are out camping anc! they are going on a little hike, Cubs, Guides. 4-Hers,·all over this P.rovince now, ready to go this week, next week, to go out in the country.

How are they going to get the warning ·that the spray plane is overhead or three or four or five miles away and the spray is going to drift in over their little bod.ies? Mr. Speaker, I think it is a crime against the people of this Province. And I think the minister should stop it immediately,· Sir, stop it now, ' before it is too late. I want to congratulate, Sir, I want to congratula~e the anti-spray groups of Gander, Glenwood, Springdale, St.

John's, Stephenvi n e, Grand Fa 11 s, Corner Brook, Conne River and other communities affected by the spray program that have put out a 1 ittle information piece today, ·put out this warning to the people, and if the people of the Province want to get a copy of this they can write their M.H.A., they can write me or telephone me or write any· M.H,A. on this side of the House. I suppose if they got·in touch with the.llfinister's office they might even get a copy of this.

But I want to congratulate.these groups here for putting out the only piece of information,- the only informational piece that is available to the people of this Province. The rest of it is a 11 propaganda and jargon that is put out by the minister's department. At the bottom it says,"Please write or phone your M.H.A. or the Minister of Forestry today and demand this informatiOI'\. The 1 i fe ·you save may be your own". I ask hon. gentlemen to think about that before they go ahead with their spray program tomorrow or next day . 10004

• • • • e • • •e • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4311 GH-2 MR. SPEAKER: Han. member for Conception South (Mr. J. Nolan) followed by han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. T. Lush). MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my han. friend from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. G. Flight). We are now in a situation whereby we are about to start - when does it start, incidentally,· exactly?. AN HON. MEMBER: It was supposed to start Sunday but it did not get favourable weather conditions. MR. NOLAN: AN HON; MEMBER: MR. NOlAN:. MR. NEARY: Alright, so it might be spraying today then?

It could be spraying anytime. It could be spraying now. They have got these big pombers - MR. NOlAN: Nc\'1, we are supposed to be on this side politically ambitious but we are not so politically ambitious that we want the minister removed because he louses this program up - that he endangers the lives of young people and so on - not likely. That is the kind of altar of sacrifice he intends to go on. You know,he is not forestry's answer to Joan of Arc, I will guarantee you.

This situation now, as I understand it, is one that could have horrendous results, and· I suggest to you that the minister with the officialdom at his disposal has no guarantee that he provide to anyone in this Province as of this moment that the young lives of the young children who will now be going on holidays and out into the various camps and so on around this Province will not be endangered. The unfortunate part about it is this that the damage could be such physically that down the road it may take two or three more years before the real problem is discovered. But let it be a matter of record, Mr.

Speaker, and this is important to remember and people will, that to the best of my knowledge only one member opposite has even risen once to indicate his concern and·his cautio·n and the· call upon his colleagues to take another look, and for that he almost got the order of the royal boot. But he took a chance and he got nothing but a slap in the face for it from what I can hear, if that is parliamentary, Mr. Speaker, figuratively speaking. This situation now is one that many earnest people without 1.0005

• • • • - • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4311 GH-3 MR. NOLAN: any - they are not i.n the pay of a.nvone in government or any political party, -they are not involved or in the pockets of the paper companies~. they are genuinely concerned people ~ parents, people in universities,· ·loggers, -.:hospital workers, -.labourers. In almost every field they are.crying out,"Do you know what you are doing?", and the fact. that the minister is prepared to sacrifice himself on the political altar is not good enough, It is.too· late 10006

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4312 EC - 1 MR. SOLAN: and it is not the remedy, it is not the antidote • Now the Minister of Justice is also going to be very, very, very much on the carpet if this thing goes through, because he has, in my opinion, ~r. Speaker, in speaking to this petition, abused the House in the past with refusing to provide proper information. Well, he cannot wipe his hands clean like a political Pontius Pilate on this one, because the law is clear . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I must point out to the hon. gentleman that he is now, in my opinion, entering quite directly into an area of debate . MR. NOLAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe Pilate said the same thing. But anyway, this is a situation now where if it is the law of the land, the Queen's First Minister looking after the justice afiairs of this Province cannot stand idly by and pretend he does not know, it is not within his area of jurisdiction and so on. So what do we have?

We have the Minister of Forestry directly responsihle.because he is the man who is obviously the one who convinced hi• colleagues in Cabinet that this shoulc be done. lie had to sell the programme to Cabinet and had to sell it to the Treasury Tioard; secondly, the Minister lf Health, most directly involved, but let us look at the other side of it and that is that without the approval of the Minister of Justice or action on his behalf it could not have happened in the first place .

And this is what ~ewfoundlanders will remember. ~ot only that, but from the information we have, the food that is necessary for thousands and thousands of birds in this Province will be removed, will be ruined and they, too, will be gone. The terrible part about it 10007

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4312 EC - 2 ~lR. ::CLAN: is we understand - and I am sutject to correcti6n on this - that as a result of former spraying that certain soil ·\,as taken, I believe, from diff~rent par~s of ~his Province, sent to Ontario, and has not been returned, or at least we do not have the informati~n from the minister. This is a very, very serious matter. It·. is not a partisan political issue as the Xinister of Tourism, I am sure, will testify, but it is one that we are all responsible to some degree for, and ~very man who remains silent on this issue will be jud3ed accordingly.

I certai~ly support the petition. HR. SPEAKER: Terra Nova . HR. LUSH: this petition. biggest issues, The hon. the me.rnber for Mr. Speaker, I rise to support This aerial spray has become one of the the biggest public issue in this Province today . People are concerned, disturbed and frustrated. Mr. Speaker, I presented one of the first pcititions from the residents of Port Blandford who were concerned because this spray was going to be poured over an area very close to their cornrnunity, within a half mile and within the \•atershed area. I presented that petition.

So far we have not been hearing too much from the people of Port Blandford since ~at petition because they have not been organized like the people in Gander, but I can assure this hon. House that they are concerned about it and worried and frustrated. It is stran~e that the government can be so insensitive to the wishes and the des{res of its people. k~owing that the vast. majority of the people of this Province do not want the forests sprayed particularly when it is cl~se to residential areas and close to water supply areas and watershed areas.

And it is strange, ~r. 5peaker, that the sovern~ent will go ahead with this 10008

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4312 l:C -- 3 HR. LUSH: spraying programme ~nowing that it is ineffective, that the results show that spraying is ineffective in controlling the spruce budworm. ~r. Speaker, we have the spruce .budworm because of neglect of our forests and because of exploitation - that is why we have the spruce budworm. And the only way that we can control the spruce budworm is through a good forest management programme, and that is what we are lacking.

The companies, the big pulp and paper companies, have not been forced by this government to carry on .a forest management programme, allowed them to cut out the economical wood and left t~e kind of wood, the kind of forest, the kind of timber on which the spruce budworm thrives. SOME BON. MEMBERS: P.ear, hear! HR. LUSH: And that is where we have made the mistake, Mr. Speaker. The ~nly solution to the spruce budworm is forest management, and what we should be concerned about right now for the preservation of our forests and for the preservation of jobs for our people in the future is prevention.

The minister, bimself, has indicated this is ~nly a short-term solution. Mr.Speaker, I say it is not a short-term solution, it is just a stopgap measure. AN HOi::. HEi·!BER: :-1R. LUSH: It will make it worse. And what we have to 'get going on, Ur. Speaker, is a good, scientific forest r.1anagecent programce. And the Budget of this year will indicate, the priorities of the government will indicate how seriously they are viewing this matter. For example, 1000S

• • • • e • • •• • • • !<.T-1 ::r. Speaker, the 197e-197~ budget is up just about $J,o)I)Q,()I)

I) over last year's budget. Insect control has increased by $1,720 /l"~, just about $2,000,000, 1~hile :~crest ~nagement is reduced by almost the same amount, $1,6'll,f.l)0. c·!ow, get' this again, that for insect control, for the aerial spray this year, . the budget has increasecl. by $1,720, !1()0, just abo.ut $2 ,ono ,(l'J'l, ;~hils t for forest management i:: has almost decreased by the same amou.'lt. :>o, He -:an ''ee .:hat is happening is that the forest management has become subservient to spr~ying. ~e Government is putting more emphasis on spraying.

TI1e ~oney that the Government is using for spraying this year has been reducecl. from what they should be spending for forest nanc.gement. ':'he only cure, the only solution, the only long-term solution to cure the spruce bud1rorm, to get rid of the spruce budworm, and this is what He have, a t'overnnent that _is taking the money from forest managet:1.ent and putting it into insecticide spraying wh.en 1~e kno1.; that it is not effective •.Jhen, incleed, it can rnal-:e the . situation ;~orse. ·Er.

Speaker, that is a terrible situation 1-1hen 1.;e knoH that the evidence is there, ·Hhen 1ve knm·1 the cure for t:1e spruce budHorm, and 1<1e are going in the reserve situation, taking money to spray that could be used for forest management, reducing the ~oney spent on forest r.1anagement by $2,:J:'JI),r.'ln and p11tting that into a spray programll'.e ar.;ainst the 1vishes of the people. and I thin\--. thnt is a te.r.ri.,le move and I 1vould hope t!1at the minister woulcl reverse ~is decision immediately. !-;?,.. SPEAKER: Eon. nember for Stephenville. ~~r.

Speaker, I rise to su-pport the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Vindsor-lluchans C-~r. "light). t think 1-Tith regard to the spraying prop:ram"'e t!1e Governnent is playiq; a cat-and--mouse game "ith the general public as reearding the information that they are entitled to \ave. For e:(ample, -;.rhen t:te r.oven!"'.ent 's o'·m rei;uJ_a.tior:s state that t!1ey should strictly ar1:1ere to the instructions :1.0010

• • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4313 on the contc>.iner, and the instructions on the container state that ·the contents, the chemical, is dangerous and poisonous, and it. should follo~r special procedures. Just to give you an example, Sir, of ~rhat. is required of an indi-.-idual if h.; is caught in a spray area, the instructions on the container Natild say, "!.lo not b'reathe the vapour or the spray mist." So, ·if you are a fisherman on some lake, or nearby, or just travelling in the •mods, and t!1e aircraft comes over and sprays, they are asking you to stop breathing. i'!mv, that is ridiculous.

Also, on the container thP.re is a notice to the seller. It ·says, "Seller's guarantee shall 1:-e limited to the term set out on the label and subject thereto the buyer assumes the risk to persons or properties ar:!.sing from the use or handling of this prorluct and accepts the product on that cor..dition. '' c!m·•, :~r. Speaker, if the earns Here c':.".n:;ed, if it .,as an intlividual spra:•ing his ·o~m lots a.nd infecter'. some other area :-earby, the outcry from this t'overnr.1ent would he so loud that I am sure it 1-10uld take the top off this building. It l·rould never spray in St.

John's. ~:ever! :!R. :!CEIL: .Anrl this is another poi··.t. Hhen you look at the whole Island they are spraying over on the Hestern _part of the Island where from all indications, the egg count masses are dm·m and it is bela'' .the critical level; in Central :\e1vfounc!land it is on thP. borderline; but over here on t'1c :Z:lst Coast, on the Avalon Peninsula, :.vhere it is still at the dangerous level, they are spraying. ;.;ny? If they are not spraying in this part of the Island I·There the bur:Forr.J is very· serio:.ts, ,.rhy spray in Central !1ewfoundland? h'hy snray in \·.'estern ;;elvfotmdland?

Is it because the major part of tl1e population is in this area and they control the votes, they are the 'in' c;:mn!?. But for the .·little people, the people far.ther away, the sr.1aller numbers of pepple, it does not ma~e any difference. Shame! 10011.

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1971} Tape No. 4313 RT-3 "r' . :·!GlE IL : That is terri'Jle, ::r. Speaker. \·!hen our C-overnlilent is doing things on strictly a nUI:lbers 'Jasis, it is ri(\iculous. TI1ey have no faith in the individual, in the human aspect of man. AN EOl! • ~!E'·!BER: ? .'P.. !·!CilEIL : The Vinister of Justice. will have to ansver. Hr. Speaker, I ~<oultl ask t!1e Government to reconsicer this tvhole spraying programme and to stop imme<iiately and not take the position 6at this cher.U.cal matilcil is innocent until proven guilty. !t is poisonous, it is guilty until proven innocent. ~-tR.

HEArtY: A?1. HOlL 1·:E!·:BER: t'll.. HEARY: :-!R. SPEAKER: AN HON • l·!E·!BEP,: ;~l; F.ON. :-!D'J3r:lf: MR. SPEAKER: NR. HODDER: to make That is. r~gh_t • No response. Not a sotmd from over there? The hon. member for Port au Port. t'obody ·at all. Is t~.1at the member for Gander? Hon. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I have some brief comments 10012

• • • • e • • •• • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4314, Page l -- apb MR. HODDER: on this petition which was so ably presented by my colleague form Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) . The one thing that has struck me since this whole issue has come to the forefront in the past, perhaps, six months, is that there:is all sorts of information coming across,I suppose,all members' desks on the problems with the spray but yet· the Department of Forestry and Agriculture has not seen fit·to give information as why they should spray.

It seems to be a one-sided affair • In my estimation the government have.not made a case for spraying in this Province in any way, shape of form and more importantly, they have not made a case for the chemical aminocarb or matacil. Now·the history of spraying,as it has been done in New Brunswick and in other areas of the country, is to spray first and ask questions afterwards.

The· history has been that first they just spray on the chemical and when people notice disastrous· consequences and disastrous effects, then they start asking questions and then the governments concerned decide to change the spray with a new one and then the whole process starts over again. I believe in the Province of New Brunswick this has happened on ·four separate occasions. No, I believe five different types of chemical have been used. Now we.have one which is totally unknown, no one knows anything about it, it is the latest unknown of the chemical sprays, matacil, aminocarb. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR.

HODDER: Now, last year New Burnswick sprayed 1. 5 million acres, that was in 1977, with matacil. At this time, at this particular time there are no studies that have been done to show the effects that it has had on the Province's forests, there have been no studies, no :1.0013

• • • e • • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4314, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: reports on the damage it has done on the chain of life in New Brunswick's forest. Now, I refer hen. members to an

article which was in the Canadian Journal of Science. and Technology, published June 1976, volume 9, number 3, and the final conclusion was this, and they were talking about the New Brunswick spray programme which is the only one we can look at; it said, "Spravina is an energy intensive attempt to bend nature to conform to the forest industry's narrow concept of how a forest should behave. The operation is unstab.te .in the long-term since it only increases the chances of occurrence of what it was originally intended to p·revent." MR. NEARY: That is right . MR. HODDER: Now, Mr.

Speaker, the spraying that we are doing in this Province, eveh while the budworm count is lower and lower and lower, and I was told this morning by one of the chief foresters, that the larvae count on the west coast was even lower than was expected - MR. NEARY: That is right. MR.· ·HODDER: The Premier or the minister, I am not sure which, but one of those gentlemen said in this House that they· would- I believe it was the Premier who was reported assaying that they would reconsider if the count was down; MR. NEARY: The minister is so stubborn now he does not want to admit defeat . MR.

HODDER: Here we have a situation where once we spray these forests we can never know what will happen afterwards. MR. NEARY: That is right . MR. HODDER: Because we will have killed off possibly birds, we do not know. I was told this morning that the stone fly on which the trout feed, this particular spray will kill that. Now, what will be the long-range effects? What will be the long-range effects on the chain 1.0014

• • • e • • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4314, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: of life in the Newfoundland fOrests? We are told there will be no. effects but we have ~een given no reasons why. I have also been told that matacil, which is registered in canada only, the back-· . gro.und . E~ffects are not released, that people cannot get these particular studies, those that have been.done. All we have is what is. on the back of. the matacil ·can which says that in spray areas people are not suppposed to breathe the mist. Well, if you cannot breathe· the mist!

Another question that I asked here in this House not so very long ago was, ·"Will th·e minister be informing the public of precise times when areas will be sprayed?" 10015.

• • • • • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4315, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: The minister did not answer this question and I understand that the people will not know. A friend of mine, I will tell the minister, told me that·he will pay an all~expense ·trip into the spray are for the minister·with all the amenities, if the minister will come in,when it is being sprayed, himself. If the minister wants to take me up on that I will certainly look after it.

The thing about this particular spray, matacil, is that only after a comprehensive environment impact study, a most comprehensive study can the effects ·of this particular chemical be ascertained. No such extensive study has been under.taken ever. This is a new chemical and until such a study we should not touch it until the chemical is proven safe by the government. It should not be sprayed, we should not follow the experience of the New Brunswick government where you spray first and ask questions afterwards and that is what is happening in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. MCISSAC: Mr. Speaker.

MR; SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. George's. MRS. MCISSAC: I just want to have a few words on the topic. I certainly do not want to see matacil sprayed in Newfoundland this year. I do not think that we have enough information on it. We can go ahead and spray this year but we do not know what the results are going to I be next year or the year after. I do not think that it is worth _the chance. Maybe it is a last attempt·,.

I do not know, maybe it is a last attempt and it may be a go9d thing if we sprayed this year, the government sprayed this year and it turned out to be a wonderful thing and there was no eggmass next year. It may be a good election issue but I ·would hate to look at it that way. 10016

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4315, Page 2 -- apb MRS • MCISSAC: I cannot see why we should take chances on poisoning the people of the Province or injuring their health in any way by spraying something that we know nothing or very, very little about. Now, if we know so much about it, I would like for the minister to put out - I mean, he is always sending out statements by the rninfster. ~v. does the minister not give us all the information,all the detailed information he has and all the confirmation he has that rnatacil is a safe spray., a safe chemical to spray?

From the evidence that we have on this side of the House it is not safe, it has not been proven. It is not registered in the·u.s., it is not registered in Great Britain, we are taking a chance on using it. We have to look at the wildlife as well as human life. We have fishermen in the woods this time of year. The woods ·are full of fishermen, campers and everything else. Here they. are in there, they do not know when the spray is corning on anymore than I do. They could be out spraying today, those people do not have any idea they are there' and they are sprayed.

Now, is the minister satisfied to go into the middle of the environment, into the centre and be sprayed? I certainly would not want to be. To get back to the water supply, I think that the minister should take a second· look at this. I think that this is something that is going to destroy the government, and do not ever forget it. The government is not doing themselves any good by going ahead and forcing this down the throats of the people • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MRS. MCISSAC: This is sorne.thing that people are against.

While I do not stand here with petitions with thousanus of names on ·them, I still get the flack when I go in my area. I know what the feelings of the people in my . 1.0017

• -· • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4315, Page 3 -- apb MRS. MCISSAC: district are; they do not want the spray, they want to know and want to be sure that it is safe. If they do not get it dir~ctly they can get it indirectly, they can get it through the wildlife, they can get it through fish, they can get it through water supplies •. There is·just no way that people are satisfied, they are very, very concerned and very unhappy about it. I think the minister would- do well to just take a little bit of time out and think about what he is doing.

Go to the people, let the people decide whether or not they want a spray programme .. Give them a chance. Those peop·le do not want their children poisoned. MR. FLIGHT: Windsor Lake. Try Windsor Lake, two miles of Windsor Lake. MRS. MCISSAC: One of the ministers, or one of the merr.bers mentioned that it is no worse than alcohol. Well, we have a choice if we want alcohol. If I want to go out and fill up with alcohol I have a choice. But if I am standing here· and there is a.plane going over spraying me, I do not have much say in that, not a.bit. Then, what about the leakage?

There was leakage in Stephenvilie, there was leakage in Gander, do you mean to tell me that that is a well controlled programme? I think the minister should be ashamed of himself to call that matacil spray programme a well controlled programme • SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NOLAN: Hear, hear~ .Resign! Resign! 1.0018

• June 13, 1978 Tape 4316 EC - 1 l!RS. HciSAAC: I think if he goes ahead with • the like of this the way that he is going about it~ without the knowledge that is necessary and ~ithout knowing that this is a safe chemical, I think that he should resign. But it is too late for the minister to • resign when half the people in the Province are poisoned ' and the nat~ral predators are destroyed. And from what I understand, on the West Coast, in my area - I have talked to the forestry people out there - they do not say • anything. I believe that they are not allowed to say anything.

But I kn~w that the egg· mass is down about SO per cent in my area. I was home from Wednesday until Sunday. I took the time'out to go through the different • areas of my Province and go in the forests and just take a look at what is going on.

Tbe students who are out there now who are doing this survey are having a difficult time to find spruce budwor~, and I think that the egg count • is dot;n . ~ow if the minister is so concerned abo~t the forests, why is he allowing the wood.that was cut by Newfoundland and Labrador Linerboard that was turned over to 3owaters left on the South~est Bro~k road - why is the minister allowing that wood now to be buried by a contractor if there is a shortage of wood in this Province?

I think· there are a lot of things the minister should take a look at before he starts trying to poison the reople of this • Province, not directly but indirectly. And the natural predators are something that in 1968 - and the minister was ~ot respon~ible for that and neither was this administration. llut in 1968 or 1969 ·there was 'a spray • programme done that destroyed. the birds and all you could see was a crow or a gull, and all the natural predators were destroyed. And· it is only in the last year or so that you will see those little birds coming • back again .

And as fa% as I am concerned, the birds 1.0019 •

• • ) • • 8 • • •e • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4316 EC - 2 MRS. MciSAAC: are what could d~stroy the •pruce budwor~ and save the forests. And I think that what you are going to have to do is probably concentrate on forest access roads ind get out the wood and chip it if necessary, at Linerboard, and store it. much . Thank you very SOME HON. ~EMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: :-!R. H. COL"LI~S: Hear, hear~ The hon .. the Minister of Health. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, it is n6t very often that I stand in this House to either present a.petition or to support a petition.

In fact, in th~ eleven years in which I have represented the district of Gander, I have never been asked to present a petition. There has never been any reason for me to p·resent a petition. In this present session, Mr. Speaker, ~here have been two. The first one was presented about a ~onth ago by my friend, the bon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) with regard to the Crown lands policy in regard to cabins. He presented a petition corttaining, I think, around sixty-eight or seventy names - I have not seen ~ copy of it - supposed to be from the people of Gander.

After the petition was tabled I did get up and have a look at it and there was no Gander resident's name on the petition; there were several from Glovertown, there were several from Frederickton, there were several from Carmanville and so on and so forth. Now, ~r. Speake~, there is one thing I would like to make clear today.

This particular petition which has been tabled here today, at least the member who tabled it did say that the petition was fro~ the Gander area and I believe that a lot of the names were collected in th~ shopping mall i~ Gander at a desk which was established by a couple of doctor friends cut there, and I think it is fair to say that a great number of people 1.0020

• June 13, 1973 Tape 4316 EC - 3 :·!R. H. COLLINS: who freq~ent that mall are uot • exa~tly che people from Metcalfe Street and MacDonald Drive and Cotten Avenue an~ Cowan's Avenue and other places, they are, a lot of them, from the outlying areas. However, after having made that point, Mr.Speaker, • what we are-considering ~ere today has become a very .. emotional is'sue in ciewfoundland. And it is very difficult to deal with issues based on the emotions of the people . . Add a little ingredient called politics to that and then, • of course, it becomes almost impossible to deal with .

Now we ha~e seen the political element at work here. It is not without coincidence that the e.entleman who presented the petition today happened to be the campaign • manager for Mr. Doug Sheppard, who is the Hayor of Gander, who is the second mayor to have tun against me out there. So you can always put two and two together, Mr. Speaker. HR. ~lEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. • HR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. ~-1R. NEARY: I would submit, Sir, that the hon. gentleman is entering i~to the realm of debate, but apart from that, Mr.

Speaker, 1 believe it is according to our Standing Rules that a member can only stand in his place , and indicate that he is supporting a petition, and an hon. gentleman • • • .10021 •

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4317 Page 1 - ms Mr. Neary. cannot get up and speak against the petition. If you rise in your place you have to support it. I would like for Your Honour to enforce the Standing Orders of this House, the rules of this House. ~!R. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this is not a point of order. I have heard hon. members opp.osite, in a

preamble to a question or a

preamble to what they are going to say about a petition, go on and on for days and get away with it, because we are the kind over here that we never draw attention to it. Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned, I would like to continue • _MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order, the Chair will rule. Obviously an hon. member when speaking is assumed to support·a petition and in· speaking may only support a petition. I au not aware that the hon. gentleman is speaking.against the petition. I would point out that hon. members may not enter into the area of debate. The hon. ~inister. ~!R. COLLINS: ~1r.

Speaker, after having said that, I should say this, that as the ;·inister of Health for this Province, I have received the best advice that I can get from the federal authorities, including the Health Protection Branch of the Federal Department of Health and Welfare, from the Food and Drug Directorate of the Department of Health and l?elfare, from Agriculture Canada and other places and other agencies. And to the best of my knowledge the best advice · I can get there is no inherent health danger in the use of matacil as a spraying material. Now the Minister of Forestry - SOME RON. ~MBERS:. ~ffi..

COLLINS: Oh, oh: - will nod oubt be haVing some words to say as well. But I can understand the concerns expressed by the people, 1.0022

• • • • e • • • • • June l3, 1978 Tap.e no. 4317 Page 2 - ms Xr. Collins. not only of Gander but of other areas of the Province. I do not believe that the right message has been getting through to them. And when the Hedical Association of this Province comes out in support of a programme outlining·to the people that there is no danger to the health of the people, then I think, Mr. Speaker, those people should listen. MR. NEARY: They did not say. that. I have members of the Newfoundland Medical Association on record as saying that they are against this. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir followed by the hon. gentleman for Bay of Islands. }!R. RIDEOUT: The Hinister of Health spoke for -five minutes and said nothing. Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to go on record as being in favour of the petition. I think it is important that I say that. SOME RON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! HR.

SIMMONS: It is important that I say that because we just saw the Minister of Health stand up and make history in this House by being against the petition and use the guise of support to be able to stand and say a few words, to take political cracks at people who were the campaign managers for various people ·and that kind of thing. What a disgraceful show, Nr. Speaker. Thirty­ four hundred people.- we got a lot of Liberal support in this Province, Mr. Speaker. I will tell you that. It is growing every day. But I Hould venture to say that many of those 3,400 are not necessarily Liberals.

They happen to be people who signed a petition out of a general concern, divorced from politics, }fr. Speaker, a genuine concern. And to have the member for Gander, in whose district many of these people live, slander those people today and insult them, Mr. Speaker, by suggesting that theywere politically motivated in 10023

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no .. 4317 Page 3 - ms Mr. Simmons • signing a petition, ~en he should also give us credit the .. for a very ~en oiled machine if :te thinks that generally - MR. LUSH: Outrageous. }ffi. SIMMONS: - that ~e could get 3,400 people, all ~ith political motivations, to sign this kind·of petit~on. What a warped mind, Mr. Speaker, What a warped mind. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us talk about another minister ~ho I had great admiration for last ~eek 1men he talked about the spruce bum~orm problem, the Minister of Tourism. l~ow he undertook to do something, Mr. Speaker.

He ·undertook to ask his Cabinet colleagues to review this issue. He undertook to ask his Cabinet colleagues to revi~ this issue • 1-'R. NEARY: They ignored it. MR. SIMMONS: No, no! Let us hear him first of all. This is a beautiful opportunity_. for the minister, }lr, Speaker, unless he has changed his mind about this matter since last time·he spoke, this is a beautiful opportunity for the 11inister of Tourism n~ to report back to the House on ~hat Cabinet did once he ~ent to them and asked Cabinet to revie~ the matter. Let him now give a progress report.

The last time ~e had a petition like this he undertook to do something for the House, for the people of N~foundland. What is the result of that, Hr. Speaker, will he now tell the House? Will he now tell the House what Cabinet did? We know the Premier's version of ~hat he did. He slapped the minister on the knuckles. But what did Cabinet do? Hhat did the full-time part of this administration do? What did Cabinet do, ~r. Speaker, after the minister took his request - and ~e cannot doubt that he took it, because ~e have his ~ord on that, that he 1vould take it to Cabinet for a review.

Now ~hat kind of a hearing did he get in Cabinet without divulging Cabinet secrets? Did he get a hearing? What it raised at all? Did he get an undertaking from ·cabinet? Or did they slap him on the knuckles like his Premier did? Let the Minister of Touri1>m report to us no~, }!r. Speaker. A ~ord for the Pinister of Forestry if he is listening. 1.0024

• • • • e • • • • \ • • Jt!ne 13, 1"7P. Tape ::o. 4318 ~T-1 I understand noH that this spray prograir.l'"·e, be it safe or unsafe, is almost useless at ·this particular til'le, t3at the ooment in ti111e has been lost, that it is past the critical stage nm~. There are many of us setting the impression - Quite apart from the safety a,;;Ject t<~hich has ·been· covered here very t·re:l by my colleagues today and t<ith w!1ich I want to identify, I raise the other equ<>.lly practical question of vrhether any point is served.

I knm~ there is a contract ongoing and they are going to have a lot of rnatacil on their hands if they rlo not spray it all over the people and that kind of stuff, but othen!ise, is there any point served now in controlling the spruce budvror;n, I asl<. the 1·!inister of Forestry. It is my understanding at t!"lis point in time, in calendar time, we are either at the point Hhere the t·!hOl<;! thing is useless or Hill be ~>ithin a feH days. He are almost past the critical stage no~; in terms of it having any effect on the control of the t>udtvorn. ?-low, that is a fair question, Hr.

SpeakP.r. hlill the oinister of !"ores try indicate to us t·rhether any purpose is to be ser-1ed now, or ~~ave '"e lost the opportimity, if that is the t<~ord that can be a]'plied to a homicicle mission - Have t<~P. lost the moment in time Hhen this should have been done? I understand it is a hit ·Iate and perha;:>s the ninis ter· can respond to that. I also understand, l~r. Speaker, from Forestry officials T:1e r.;ember ·fer f.t.

George 1 s (:·rrs. ~lc!saac) says they are not talking, t~ell they are talking to some pP.ople - Officia.!.s of .the· minister's mm department tell me that the egg mass count is dotJn substantially, and t!1ey '·,ave figures and dccumentation to r;ho~' that it is down ·substantially . Indeed, 'the crisis is past, I al'l told anrl the spruce budt.rom is al:>out to take cara .1f itself. One other point, l'r. Speaker, the arP.a to 1:-e sprayed, I think it is very signific:mt if ?OU lool: at the !;'al:eup of the Cabinet. St.

John 1 s Centre is lo.arr:!J.:· a Rreat forestry <list rict' the rn~mhet for f. rand J3ank e•r. Iiic!·~Gan) "5.: iOt involver{! the ~,~~ber for. ·LaCraC.or \!est is r,ot invclvr:rl: t~e· Prewicr is r-.ot invo!.ve0. It i$ a political .1ecision, ·:r. ~r-aa!·.~r, a political :lecision. :"1e. l"aicrity - (ina1.t:-ti1?le) :1.0G25

• • • • e • • • • • • June ..__,, 1~7:; Tape !:a. !~31~ t.T ··2 ~-To , no , J"I.O • !:.old on r.ov: l'o not be so dur.:!:. Do not l·e sue!-: ch:nce:s. Do not be so stunned, Jir.!, as 'the rcember for St. John's Centre (!-~r. ~~urp!'.y). It is a political decision, :~r. Speaker • The :!inister of Fores>,::-y hiT-self said on T.V. ::'::: other :~ay, "C.ven if t>e had a real problem in the Avalon, He ;.;ould not spray here because 1.;e are too close to people." ~"\.;.• HON. ?iEHBE~.: Hear, hear! !·!'nat is so different ?.bout the people out around Corner !lrcoJ.:, ~~r.

Speaker, or the people around Gander, or Springdale, or those places? Are they lesser beings for sane reason? It 1-1as a political decision. . They kneH they could not get aHay ,.,ith it here, Hr. Speaker, because of the sheer numbers involved against them . The:l hoped to brazen it through. The opposition is there. It is kin<:'. of dissipated in that some is in Conne ?iw~;:, ant\ .>or·.'.e is in Sprin!!.dale, and some ::.s in Corner Brook. It is someHhat dissipated, not as concentrated as it ,.;auld be here on the Avalon.

T'1ey :.-.n<Y,r they_ 1·7ould have lost none of their political scalps, hut perhaps their scalps ot~:endse, had they tried it in here. .\ncl t:..e ·r..inis ter is at least a ':lit honest 1-1hen he goes on television, C.?. C:., anrl tells them. ''\~e could not have it :1ere because He are too close to people." I t·•ill have llim kno~1 he is pretty close to ;:-eople out there including 3 ,4(1" t·ino signed t!1is petiti<;>n, sor.~e others w'~o have signed t!le petition t-re Hill :1ave ready for tomorrow, and other _petitions ,.,e tvill have a feu c!e.ys frow no1·1. 'r.1e point will be made, ~·rr .• 0-pea!·:er.

It might tal~e a little lenge:;: ~ecause the people happen to live out in the sticl·.s instead of in the Avalon, but He tvill get the messap:e througJ:.. eventually. If they thought this I•' !IS a sound political decision they are 80ing to ':>e doins .~o~e secane\ thinking on this uitl!in a fel'' clays if they are not too stunned to t!link about it altogether. The hon. menber for !lay of Islanrls . 10026

• • • • e • • • • • June 13, 1~78 :m.. ~·iOODROH: 1 !R. l'OODROIY: SO:·!E 1:10!·T. l'E!·:TIETlS : · '!R. SPE.\.~ER: l.P .• HOODRC!i': Tape :·1o. 4328 r!r. Speal,er - - the great forestry of - (inaudible) :tT-3 In rising to support on this - o~. oh! Order, please! Order, please! In. rising to make scr;;e remarks· on this petition, Hr. :::peaker, first of all I think we all have to reaEze t'..at ·this is, at the present tine, an extremely controversial topic and in listening to· the speakers from the opposite side of the House I heard the I<Ord>used, "I think", not the.1;ords, "I knm/' .. 'To''• l:rr.

Speaker, I am certainly conce:ned about the spraying because after all the livelihood of Central and ''t;>Etern Kewfoundland depenc!s upon our forests. I Hent last year twice, on-:~ ~dth severel members from the Opposition - He lvent, lYe ·,:1ould. say, from Corner. Brook

• • • • • • • • • • June -13, 1978 Tape 4319 r::c -· 1 ~!R. ;.;QODROW: out to Stephenville and I flew over the Serpentine back to Stephenville over the Port au Port area again, and I certainly was deeply depressed to see hbw the forests had been destroyed by the spruce budworm. But I understand, ~r. Speaker, that there were no ill effects from the spray that took place last year. In fact, if I read the thing correctly, I understand that it helped our forests. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is very seri-ous.

The unfortunate thing about this topic is that we are tossing this around in the political arena and_ it is going to have a terrible effect. This could hllve { a devastating effect upon the lives of half of our Neto1foundlanders. So I am trying to look at it this way, Mr. Speaker: We have had scientists - !et us place it in the political arena for a while - we have had scientists from the Opposition side and from the government side of the House: we have. got the ad~ice from both of them .

Surely, in fact, the bon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture is not doing this, for example, just to suit himself - he has already placed his seat on the line. I heard him say that out in Stephenville on Sunday. So surely to goodness, in fact, he is taking this with the administration and with those who are directing him. In other words, is he a fool, Mr. Sneaker! Are all the members on this side of the liouse fools or crazy? I hope to goodness they are not. ~r. Speaker, I had one letter from Corner Brook o~ this. And I asked the gentleman - ~e was a teacher at the trade school.

I received this letter about six weeks ag~. And I said to him, 'c-low listen, the best thing for you to do is to get a petition taken ~p and I will present that petition in the House of Assembly. A:; ;IQ;:. :IE:-!!!ER: ~ut will you support it? 1.0028 .

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1973 Tape 4319 EC - 2 HR. I.;QODROH: Of course, I will support it . I will support anythin~ that is go~d for the Province. A:{ EON. HE}!BER: :-JR. ~-iOODR0\1; SOME ~ON~ MEMBERS: :·IR. SPEAKER: l·IR. 'ilOO DROW: Arc you supporting this one? I am not finished yet, Hr.Speaker. Oh, oh! Order, please! I wou~d say, if the Opposition, Hr. Speaker, were serious about it they would keep it out of the political arena and put it to a non-political committee. Now I would also, Mr. Speaker, have to support the minister for the stand he has taken. l•!R. SH!MONS: HR. SPEAKER·: HR.

S D!~!ONS: A point of orde~, Mr. Speaker. A point of order has come up . Mr. Speaker, I believe the member for Gander, now the member for Say of·Islands (Mr. Woodrow) is really chopping away, eating away at· a very important tradition in this Hous~, namely, that when there is a petition there is opportunity for the person presenting the petition on behalf of certain p~ople and then for others who speak to rise and express their support of the petition.

I have listened to the member for some time and I was getting the drift of what he was saying, basically that he was in favour of the government's stand, which, Mr. Speaker, if yo~ read the prayer of the petition - I tried to read it, but it is not on the table at the moment, it is now being scrutinized by the member for Gander (Mr. H. Collins) to see if the people on it are first class citizens or second class citizens - A:·l !!ON. :!Ei-lilER: i!R. si:·:um;s: Yes, right. - so I am not sure of the exact prayer.

But as I understand the prayer, it asks the government not to spray, very specifically not to spray for health reasons - that is the prayer of th• petition . 1..0C29

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape 4319 EC - 3 l1R. S INHONS: How the member for Bay of Islands (Hr. Woodrow) is saying he supports the minister, and of cour~e, we know what the minister's ~osition is, that he is in tavour of the s~ray programme. So the member cannot have it both ways, either he is for the petition or he is against the petition.

Now I ao not trying to deny him the right to speak, but if he is against tha petition I will just say to him in all kindness, this is not the place to let his vie•s be kn~wn. 9e can do it in the Throne Speech Debace or in some other place, but he cannot stand and use the guise of supporting a petition to mount arguments which are i~ direct contradiction of the p·rayer of the petition, itself or the objective '~hic'h the petitioners would achieve. He is speaking now in direct violation of that stated objective in the prayer of the petition. And I submit, Mr.

Speaker, not wanting to cut him off because there are other opportunities in the Throne Speech ~ebate .for him to speak, but it is not the place for him to record his contrary views to this particular petition . 1.0030 .

• • • • e • • • • • June 13, 1978 }fR. NEARY: }fR. SPEAKER: my left first .. Tape no. 4320 Page 1 - ms A ~oint of order. I will hear the hon. gentleman to MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman admits that he baa .not seen the prayer of the petition for a good reason. I took it off the table a minute ago • MR. NEARY: Put it back on the table. Put it back where it should be, on the table of this House. XR. SPEAKER: Order, please!. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, would you ask -Mr. Soeaker, is .there any way that a member can stand on his feet without being abused by those two characte~s across the way, Sir?

If there is, Sir, I would ask that you ask these gentlemen to keep their remarks to themselves until I finish my point of order . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege of the House. }fR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I· would like ·to draw to Your Honour's attention that there bas been a.breach, Sir, of the privileges of this House inasmuch as a member has taken a .petition that was presented to the House about a half an hour ago, Sir, by the me~ber for Buchans.

The ~ember, Sir, asked Your Henour leave of the House to put the petition on the table of the House and be referred to the department to which it relates. It is my opinion, Sir, the member for Grand Falls (}!r. Lundrigan) is not the department to which it relates. The petition has been stolen off the table ·of the House, Sir. It is now being circulated amongst the members on the government benches, Sir, and I ask Your Honour to instruct the Sergeant-at-Arms to go and seize the pe.tition and put it back on the table of the House where it belongs until it is dealt with by members on both sides of this House.

SOt!E HON. ME!-ffiEF.S: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: :10031

• • • • • • • • June 13, 1978 ~. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Tape no. 4320 Page 2 - ms On that question of privilege, Your Honour. The han. Government House Leader. MR. HI~AN: I do submit that the bon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is shockingly abusing the point of privilege and the question. of privilege of this House. Beauchesne says very clearly that points of privilege are matters that should be very seldom raised. Anyone knows, a child of ten would know , that anything that is tabled in this House so long as it is within the environs and confines of this House is accessible to any hart. member thereof. MR.

NEARY: ~~ .• HICKMAN: After tabling it. And to make a suggestion; to make an accusation in a most unparliamentary manner, I submit, Mr. Speaker, is an abuse of the privileges of this House. AN RON. ~ER: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on that question of privilege. Order, please! On the point of privilege which I thin~ can now be disposed of. I do not regard that there is a point of privilege as such. It is, I think, better procedure when a document is tabled, and there is only one of them for.that document to be left on the table.

And for any bon. member who then 1<1ishes to see it may go and see it or read it or refer to it. If an han. member feels that he wants a copy of it, then certainly arrangements will be made for a photostatic copy of it. }'R. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: But as long as there is only one copy then it certainly is preferable that that copy remain at the table. For example, a couple of weeks ago, there was some material tabled which was quite voluminous and there the procedure was that it would not be distributed until at .least some copies were made.

So it certainly is preferable, unless and until there are copies available. that one copy rest at the table which will then give an opportunity to any member to read it at the table or to examine it or to scrutinize it. So I think that will look after that matter. The petition actually should be returned to the table. 1.0032

• • • • e • • • • . • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4320 Page 3 - ms H'R. SPEAKER: Now the point of order which preceded that - ?'R. NEAFY: How do we.know it is. all there?. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Otder., please! - was with respect to the methodology • of. speaking to petitions. There was no doubt that an han. member is not allowed to speak against a petition. The Chair assumes, -when it recognizes an han. member, that he is speaking to it, that he is supporting it• If an han. member is to state that he is opposed to the petition or speaking against it, then he would be out of order.

I suppose there is a spectrum of. intensity of support. A person could support it very strongly and then perhaps a person could support it quite nominally perhaps - ~!R. ~IOODFOW : "Lukely." l·!R. SPEAKER: - yes, "Lukely" a person could support it, if there is ·such an adverb. m:.. 1\!00DROW. : Mr. Speaker, to a point of - MR. SPEAK~R: But unless and until a person has clearly shown that he is speaking against it, then I think the Chair must assume that he is speaking for· it anywhere within that spectrum of voiciferously to "Lukely." 10033

• • • • e • • • • • June 13, 1~ 73 :'R • . r.:oor:r.c:;: l~en I ,,·as interrupted by the - SO~T llON. :T.W!F.RS: the five minutes has expired. ~'F .. ~?OODROH: ~'R • SPEA~R: Tape llo. 4321 RT-1 To a pob.t of nrder, l~r. Speaker. Oh, oh! Orde::.-, please! I regret to inform the han; gentleman A point of order, ~!r. Speaker. A point of order •. ~ .. ~ .• HOODRO~..r: vlhen I '~as interrupted oy the !lon. member from - Not the hon.' cro,vd, I ~~ould not use that word as it is often us~d l•lhen I was interrupted, t!r. Speaker, I uas saying that the minister bas taken a stand and I congratulate ~im for taking a stand.

It s':1o,vs · that he '1as guts. is - l!r. Speal~er, to shaH :..oH controversial t!lis .topic SO!·:E !ION. :mmERS: l)h, oh! ~·~. SPEAY..F.!t: Or~er, please!· Order, please! Order on both sirces! I realize that the 'Jon. gentlem<>.n ·l1oes •dsh to add some remar!cs to :.is previous subr.>issic·n anri that !-.is time has expired and ·that he, ~limself, has not - SO~!E HOH. l!E?'~E!l.S: Oh, oh! ~!'!'.. SPE!':.I:F.F.! Crder, please!

Or<'er, _please! ~~e, ~imself, has no!: •.t3eC personally ~1is entire .five mi:1utes ;ut th~ ru.!.zs are suc:1 that if the_five minutes is eXJ)ired, it is expirP.d, and it ·,:auld 0e improper for ti-.e to allaH him now to continue unrler t!1e r,uise of a point of order. '!:1c only Hay the han. gentlenan ·can continue as can any r.on. me1:1ber is, of course, by ur..;:nimo,.ts conser.t. SOclE 1'.0" • YJ:::·l:DE?. S : :·.::R. ~;OOD3.0!·1: SOY"" ;;c;-.;. I·rt:!~ER~ : have consent? :;o, he clces not. IJh, oh! :·!r. Speal~er - Order, please! ~ocs tl-..:•. hon. gentleP.an In t~e political fielt:l . 1.0034

• • • • • • •e • • • June 13, P7~ .,., :.:!.. .... :-::R • nconr..mr: saying. :·.::R. SPEAKER: DR. J . CCLLES : 7tT-2 Ordo~r, please: - ~•hie!"! sho"~ as nonsense t-r!l.at you are The hon. member for St. John's South. Fising in support of this petition I ~-could like to make a few points in regard to that support. The first point in regard to the support, I think that any petition t~at comes in. here clearly means that there is a concern on the ;?art of a nuinber of citizens; and this is clearly set out in this petition. In that ·regard I certainly support the petition. Secondly, .

I •..;ould support it if the spray programme is to be a single operation against. the spruce ~ud,.•orm. If tllis is not to be just an opening gambit, in other '"orrls, scJ!",e means of just getting initial contz:ol and t:1ereafter go on to a fuller control programme, I 'muld he against the spray progratnl!le.

If, on the other hand, c:..is is to be a means of getting on top -of an acute enerp.ency situation almost, and t':len ~:ringing up the other forces, I feel that I can rmpport the concerns of the citizens expreBserl in this petition, but I Foulr1. ''e reassurP.-1. ::::: such a method. -r11e third point I hava t01ere is this th.at I understand. the concerns really -::elated to !>ealth, and I t:1ink it should be cle2.rly, as clee.rly as tole can, set· out ,.,h. at the health :1azards are here.

If there are no he2.lth hazards, then clearly the petitioners can :;c reassnrecl: :':"hey still have t:le right to petition but t!l.e:,c <could then be petit:O-oning Pitl)out full knoHledp.c. T. •;ould li':P., therefore, to just give the information available to me, personally, in regard to the healt!-, ~-,e.zarcls in te=.s of tl:>.is sprey progra="" ;;:1.r1 t!'.e cr.enic.?.l being used.

As I mentioned in the 1-'ouse a .1.1 ttle '·chile a eo, the ini'ono.~t:i.on that I i1ave is that if you put all t!"1iS spray ll'aterial th<>.t is ')<~in:; uswl in the Gander are'l cliro;,<:tly into r-ander Lal:e it st.C.1_ ·.-:ould :1,)t get above the safety level set out hy the Fe<]eral .r.overnment . In addition to the.t, 1 tool ... the opportunity of lool·.ing throug!1 the Index ':e(!icus for 1~77 in reg.ar-:! to the latest research ~·iork in "':.eye's syrvlrome. ~~ye' s syndros'= is t:-~e particular :10035

• Tape ::o. 4321 :'.T-3 • D!l. • J • COLL WS : disease process that comes to the fore 1vl:en ones talks of a forest spraying. Just he fore going int·o that, '-'r. Speaker, I might mention that recently I got a piece of literature from 1·;ayne t'niversity Hhich is the centre for Reye 's syndrome research, and this • ·outlined the .. progral!!D1es that they follo~l in conducting their researches. In none of the items set out there '"as the forest spraying one of the areas being lookec intc·.

And this is confirmed by - In the :n·!ex :.•ed{cus even though this is quite a rare disease, Reye's syn~ro~e, in children, • there were something like tr.irty•five to forty articles in the HorJ.d literat~re, and not one of these articles -They covered many areas but not one of these articles dealt 1dth chemical spraying. !!ear, hear! • DF.. J. COLLINS: So, the information I have is th~t the ;1ealth hazards, even though the spraying of anything, I ;vou!d suggest, is undesirable • • • • -- • • • 10036 •

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4322, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: unless there is come counter- vailing benefit the health hazards from the spraying are of such an order that I would not have thought that they would be a big consideration considering the risks to the economy of this Province if the forest management situation ~ot.out of hand . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. MURPHY: Very nicely said. It is good to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about. MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. The hon.· the Minister of Labour· MR ..

ROUSSEAU: I have another petition that I ·would like to present to the House of Assembly. SOME Hot-'. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ MR. ROUSSEAU: Does anybody want to speak? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: I will decide when I want to speak in the House. I do not have to be told by the Opposition when to speak in the House. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. MORGAN: I will decide when to speak, I do not need 'Steve Neary' to tell me to speak. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: Order, please! Order~ The hon. the minister.

This is the second petition I have received from my district within a couple of weeks • I received it today so I am not going to sit on it and I am not going to leave i.t until ·tomorrow which is Wednesday. SOME HON. MEMBERS:. MR. ROUSSEAU: SOME HON. MEMBERS: yesterday. MR. ROUSSEAU: Sit down! Sit down! Oh, you got yours, did you? We got ours the day before Well, it might have come in yesterday. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I must say that the hon . member from Eag1e River (Mr. Strachan) did mention that he 1.0037

• • • • • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4322, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: had some calls on it, and I had a number of calls on it besides the names on the petition. It is a very serious petition to the people of Labrador West in that .it is a petition signed by some 500 or 600 peopl~ who·are.protestin~ the possibility of the establishment of premixer, a batch plant at the intersection which leaves the Labrador City - Wabush road to Ferment down to Dooley Lake·. I would like to read the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, if I may.

"That we the residents of Dooley Lake, Summer cottage area, vigourously protest the proposed operation of a batch plant on the Inlet River at the North end of Dooley Lake. The prevailing winds Northerly winds in Western Labrador would ultimately cause the entire provincial park and cottage to be blanketed with the same sort of dust pollu~ion that envelops Labrador City - Wabush, the discomforts from which we sought to escape within this non-industrial environment.

Additionally, the river along­ side the ·proposed plant location, the· banks of which offer choice camping_ sites, empties into Dooley Lake and drainage from a cement operation would pollute both the river and the lake in the immediate vicinity of the provincial park, golf club and our cottage area, all of which is situated at the North e_nd of the lake or along the Northwestern shore near such inlet.

For someone to suggest that there would be no pollution from such an industrial installation is grossly irresponsible and comparable to utterances that the tailings discoloured Wabush and II Shabogamo watershed is not polluted. We question that these same environmental·experts would be prepared to fish or swim in the muddy, re~ hued filth which is all that remains of the once crystal clear forty miles stretch of 10038'

• • • • e • • •e • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4322, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: drink from it • wilderness water let alone To permit a similar fate in respect of Dooley Lake and its rivers would be inexcusable and intolerable and we must insist.that action be taken immediately to protect this recreational area by prohibiting the operation of a batch plant or any other industrial undertaking within pollution spewing range of our air or water." My name appears on it enthusiastically as a supporter of the petition, Mr.

Speaker. ·As I say, in this area the people in Labrador West;· landlocked as they are,for the most part have a problem in respect to recreation. This is probably, per capita, one of the highest used recreational areas in the Province during the SUmmertime for those young people who do not have the seniority,.or other people who cannot get out because of the great.cost. They use this to quite an extent.

I have taken the matter up already with the officials of the department, yesterday, because, as I have said·, I have rec'eived other phone calls and .letters on it, and today with the minister, ·and they are holding it up to take another look at it. I think it is a question where somebody. says it is a mile from the park·. It is a mile from the park but it is almost at the intersectionof going down to the park. This is one of the areas in our wilderness in Lanrador and I think the same thing applies to the Island of Newfoundland, we do not want to see this sort of thing.

I sweat over four years to have included in the Labrador - DREE agreement an industrial park. I took a lot of flack for it until we finally got it, and we got it. Mr. Lessard called it Rousseau's dream, and it was, it was the only part of the DREE agreement we got. That is the place where a batch plant should go, in that industrial area, and not in a ·t0039

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4322, Page 4 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: recreational area that means so much to the people of Western Labrador . MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) why do they want it? MR. ROUSSEAU: I have no idea why. I cannot fathom a reason why because there is now an industrial ·park there and they can do it there., why put it out there? But apparently there was a pit that was used there prior to the park being put there. MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible)· MR. ROUSSEAU: No, it is - well, referrals have gone out to the various departments.

It is a permit under Crown lands that they have applied for. i have asked them to hold it up and it is up to the minister. I would hope that every. sympathetic consideration would be given to it. I do not want t9 inconvenience the company that is providing jobs up there but.there are other opportunities in other areas to do that. It is a very, very important item for-the people of Western Labrador 10040

• • • • • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4323, Page l -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: and like I said,per capita, I would think that more people use that park than any other park in the Province. I would heartily endorse this petition. I would ask the very sympathetic consideration and understanding of the department of .

Forestry and Agriculture, the Crown Lands Division, and the minister to make certain·that such a thing will not happen to one pf the very few wilderness areas that we have in Labrador, in Western Labrador especially • As many people know, the companies own most of the area up there and there is very little· opportunity for the people to. have'their own recreational area. I fully and enthusiastically support the petitiorl, I ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates, the Crown Lands Division of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, as I have said we have copies, I think. The member for LaPoile· (Mr. Neary) has a copy of the petition. I am glad the minister presented the petition. It was very timely. I heartily endorse the prayer of the petition. We have received a number of calls over the last week concerning this problem. The people of Labrador City and Wabush have very little opportunity to get out during the working year, out from Labrador West and so the Dooley Lake area and the whole wilderness area around there is very important to these people.

The question of building a hatching plant very close to their site of recreation and enjoyment, pollution free enjoyment, is:very important. I support the petition. I believe that in .Labrador West where 15,000 or 17,000 people are living with a great deal of pollution around them, 1..0041.'

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4323, Page 2 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: ore mines, the dust • pollution from the iron Also the Southern Lake area, the Wabush Shabogamo Lake area, which is red, absolutely red with tailings, an .area which should be investigated as well because it is .extremely polluted • . I thin~: there are two problems in the West as far as pollution is concerned, one is the dust from the problem and the other is the tailings. emptying into this forty mile watershed which is absolutely .red.

I think the only area left to the people there. is the Dooley Lake area and now a batching plant is going to be situated there for convenience sake. I do not think there was any other reason; just pure convenience sake. I think it is very timely that this should be stopped before they proceed too far. I agree with the minister here, that the industrial park there was created for that purpose and why they did not locate there, or why they did not look at a site there I do not know.

I do not understand the reason for it, but I think the people are very right in getting up very quickly and very angry about it since it is the only recreational area they have left. ! support the prayer of the petition and hope that others will feel that this question is a very serious one and will also look into other areas of pollution in Labrador West which I think should be looked into because itbis a serious situation, as I have said, especially the watershed area which was once a crystal clear lake and river system but is now filthy.

Although experts·, again some say government· experts, have indicated there is nothing wrong with it., I am sure that no member in this House of Assembly would either fish or swim in it let alone drink the water from it and I think that area needs to be looked into. I support the prayer of the petition • MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. :10042

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 1978, Tape 4323, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Collins): MR. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. Mr. Speak.er, I fully support the petition from the residents of Labrador City and Wabush in relation to the possible pollution of both the water and the dust and.the camping rounds in Dooley Lake. The park there is a provincial park operated by the Parks Division of my department.. In fact, I will go so far as to say, Mr.

Speaker, I would like in the future for the minister responsible for Crown lands and Crown land permits, that whenever an application is made by companies concerned in setting as in this case, a batch plant, or any kind of a plant that is going to affect the recreation areas, that the Crown Lands committee must and should refer the application to the Parks Division, Department of Tourism so. we can have our say.

In most cases, I would imagine, our say would be negative, we would not approve any kind of a facility to be established in an area that is going to affect a recreation area, and in particular, a provincial park. So I would like to make the recommendation, in supporting the petition, that in future applications made of that nature, before they are approved by the Department of Health and the Crown Lands Committee in.the Department of Forestry and Agriculture and other departments, that also the Parks Division of the Tourism Department be involved as well so we can put a stop to this kind of thing in the future.

I support the petition fully. MR. SPEAKER(Collins): MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, the sponsors of this petition·, Sir, were good enough to send me along a copy and my colleague and I discussed it a couple of days ago. We received our copies the day before yesterday. So we discussed it and we decided·to hold off until today • Today was the deadline and either my colleague or myself was going to table the petition because we felt that thehon. 10043

• • • • • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4324 Page 1 - ms }<r. Nea:ry . gentleman had it going on three days the same as we did. Hell maybe there was a delay in the mail. Al.'l HON. ME}ffiER: ~:F. NEARY: Outside the building. Outside the building. That is why 1~e gave the minister a jump on it. We did not want to come in and try to upstage the minister. So I support the petition, Sir, although the hon. gentleman mentioned in his support of the minister, the hon. minister, that he thought it should be put in the Industrial !ark.

Well now, Sir, I do not know if .that is the kind of an industry that should go in the industrial park. Hould that be the place to put it? You are still going to get these smokestack;; spewing out dust arid ·smoke and fumes out in the Industrial Park. I think it is the kind of an industry that should be put off somewhere by itself,. because in the Industrial Park you are going to have - it is going to be fairly clean, I presume, a clean area, the Industrial Parks that I have seen around, like Donovans Industrial Park and the one we have outside Port aux Basques there.

Certainly, I would not want to see that kind of an industry go in there. All it ~~ill do is mess up the place. 1-lR. STPACHAN: 1-'R. NEARY·: any difference Well, I do not know. It does not make Tf you pu~ it in the middle of an Industrial Park, you are still going to have one heck of a mess on your hands. And the 500 or 600 people, Sir, who signed the petition - I presume this is motivated by the people who have the summer cottages dotrn there - HR. ROUSSEAU: Everybody in the area signed it. MR. NEARY: - everybody in the area. Well, I know, but it was motivated by them, and I agree·with that, Sir.

I think that this area should be reserved for the. people who li,ve in Wabush and Labrador City 1.0044

• • • • e • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4324 Page 2 - ms Mr.~ that they should not allow themselves to become blanketed with dust and pollution fn the· river and this plant spewing out dust ·and muck and dirt. Most of the people in Labrador West, Sir, like the outdoors. It is probably one of the better forms of recreation that they have, the wildlife, the outdoors, camping and that sort of thing, skiing • And I think it would be a shame, Sir, to destory the place where they camp and where they have their summer cottages.

So I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I hope that before the hen. minister who is responsible for the environment passes in his resignation, Sir, that one of his last acts will be to put a stop to that plant from going in that area • MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Naskaupi. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, I take pleasure in standing to support the petition which was presented by my colleague from Menihek, the Minister of ~abour and Manpower, signed by 500 or 600 people, I believe, and it relates to a hatching pi ant - I think was the name of the unit that is being installed there - which I understand, at least, is used for the manufacture, if you will, of asphalt. We have one in the Otter Creek area of Goose Bay, Hr. Speaker_, and I can tell you that the environment is suffering as a result of it with the tar and the pitch and everything else· that is lying around the area.

But this petition, I believe, dralvS attention to a couple of items as they relate to Labrador, number one, the environment which - we have a vast part of the country up there and the possibility of polluting that· environment through this sort of an effort and you compound the situation in ~'enihek district ·••hen you think of the f.ron ore dust and the tailings tvhich the hon. member for Eagle River (Hr. Strachan) ·referred to.

And then you consider that there is so much space in the area tvhere this sort of a plant could be erected, it seems a little ludicrous to me that anyone ~10uld want to install such a hatching plant in what has been -classified as a recreation area. :10045

• • • • e • • •e •· • • • June 13, 1978. Tape no. 4324 Page 3 - ms }'r. Goudie. I support ·the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, and would hope that the appropriate minister will take action. M R. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir: MR. SIMiONS: Just a brief word in-support of the petition. The Dooley Lake area is one that I know somewhat having done some cross-country skiing there and ski-dooing and also some su1!Dilertime· activities as well.

It is a delightful area, and I know that the people in Labrador City ~ Wabush enjoy it particularly, because it is one of the few areas that they can go really. HR. ROUSSEAU: It is the orily one. MR. SI'I1MONS: It is the only recreational area. That is right, _exactly. And I only spent, myself, two or three months in the Wabush area some years ago. But every time I go there I get the distinct impression that people would like to have some place to go outside the i11D1lediate enVirons of the two towns concerned, and this is an absolutely delightful spot.

With the landmass we have, certainly around Labrador City, there is no need, Mr. Speaker, even if there only a two and one-half per cent chance of any pollution or dust problem, there is no need, with the land availability we have, to put that plant anywhere near a recr2ation area. There is no need at all. It is just that simple. Now I understood from an exchange in the House a moment ago that the environmental people have approved that and that kind of 1..0046

• • • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Mr. Simmons. MR.MURPHY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. MURPHY: MR. SIMMONS: Tape no. 4325 Page 1 - ms - needs On reference from Crown Lands. From Crown Lands, yes. Environmentally, it does not affect anything - and whatever Crown Lands decide to do, you-know. Yes, yes,. okay. Well~ perhaps that clarifies it somewhat. I cannot understand how it cou.ld be approved but then again I do not understand what a batch plant is. It is some kind of a cement· bulk plant or something of that natu"re as I understand it.

And from the ones I have seen there is a fair amount of dust emanating from it. do not care what the environmental controls are. Dust is dust. And say, Mr. Speaker.- perhaps the best way of characterizing this - I sa~ that any ~an who spends eight hours a day in the pellet plant in Labrador City, eating the dust, should not hav€ to go out and eat the dust.with his supper out in Dooley Lake in the evening· or on a Sunday. It is just too much - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: That is right, exactly, exactly, and that is the issue, Mr.

Speaker, that if there is any kind of a risk here at all - and it seems to me that there is - that the last place _it should go is in a campsite or summer cottage. It is a beautiful spot out there, and those who have not been to Labrador City should make it a point when you go of seeing this particular area~ It is a choice location. It is a delightful spot for a provincial park which is-operating there and for the cottage area and an all year recre~tion spot is.· what it is - a year round recreation spot, I think it is fair to put it that way.

And· this must be preserved_, and I certainly support the prayer of the petition presented by my friend from Menihek . 10047

• • • • • • •e • • • June 13, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: Tape no. 4325 Page 2 - ms NOTICES OF MOTION: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For Change Of Name." (Bi 11 No. 64). 'MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour. .MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask ·1 eave to introduce a bi 11, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Teacher (Collective Bargaining) Act, 1973." (Bill No. 66). ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR·WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour. MR.

ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member for Baie Verte -White Bay (Mr. Rideout) is in·the environs of the House I suppose that I might give the answer on record and maybe his colleagues - he brought up the question yesterday about the ILO and the banning of asbestos ·mining, and I undertook to check it out for him, and I have a note here, because I wanted to check and make.sure what_ the situation was before I said anything.

Some-three weeks ago I was· advised by the Inter-provincial Rel_ations Division of the Canada Department of Labour of the possibility of such a resoltuion being put on the floor of the current ILO conference in Geneva by the chairman of the workers' group, the ex-president of CLC, Mr. Joe Morris. I was told that it was not definite that the resol\otion would be ·put there, but in the event that it was, I was asked what our reaction would be. I informed my counterpart that we would have strong. objection to such a resolution since it would mean the possible loss of a large number of jobs in this Province.

We would join in efforts to make asbestos·production safer for workmen rather than further erode the possibi 1 ity of employment. After hearing the matter ~aised in the House yesterday, I again contacted the Inter-provincial Affairs Secretariat for explicit information on the resolution. They are 1.0048

• • • e • •e • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4325 Page 3 - ms Mr .. Rousseau. still uncertain whether the resolution has been or will in fact be introduced during this year's conference. They do know that the workers' delegate, Mr. Joe Morris, intended to desposit the resolution with the Resolution's Committee at the beginning of the conference. If the resolution is favourably considered by the Resolution's Committee of the ILO, it would have to be debated on the floor of the conference and would in all probability be opposed by employer groups and by government groups.

In any event it could not be considered as a subject of a convention of the ILO which Canada as a member nation would be asked to ra-tify until at least a year from now. There is no doubt that we will have adequate ·opportunity to express our views if the resolution does receive favour during the current session of the ILO in Geneva. In the meantime and to make sure that there is no mistake in the position of this government, the Inter-provincial Relations Division are in the process of sending a telex to the Canadian delegation in Geneva to determine what the current status of the resolution may be.

And just to be sure that we do not get our wires mixed, I sent a telex to the Minister of Labour in Ottawa expressing our concern over the matter with a suggestion that the rights of the workers could be better served by ensuring safety in the wor~ place rather than eliminating their means of earning a livelihood. So in all likelihood if this is_a resolution, it will be debated, and if it meets favour, it will not get on until next year in which we will have an opportunity to go on record as a government. But in the meantime I have to inform my counterpart in Ottawa, the hon.

John Monroe that we would be opposing this situation. Our feeling is tha~ we would like to have this asbestos operation in this Province continue , and that we would continue to support the asbestos industry in this Province and hope that we could by making it the safest operation in Canada and continue. its existence. We will express that in any meetings we have with the federal government in re?pect to any positions they take at the ILO . meetings next year. :1.0049

• • • • • • • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4326 Page 1 - ms ORAL QUESTIONS: MIL SPEAKER: Opposition House leader. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my qu.estion is for the Government House leader, Sir.

In view of the mounting protest, the savage protest over Bill 50 and the passing. of Bill 50 in this session of the House, is the Government House leader now ~1i ll i ng to admit that because of the representations that are being made and the ;nounting opposition of this bill that it will be left over until the Fall session or the next ~itting of the House of Assembly and the government not rush into passing this bill and implementing its clauses until. the people have a chance to study ·the bi 11 and make their feelings known to the government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister • MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, obviously I cannot indicate to the House what government's intention is with respect to the bill other than the intention that was indicated as a result of introducing the bill, that government feels that it is good legislation and hopes that it will commend it and that the legislation will seek the approval of this House. I do draw to the hon. gentleman's attention and the House that it is not correct to say that residents in the area involved ·have not had an opportunity to react to the· bill and the proposal.

Firstly, a biN quite similar to this bill was introduced during the last session of the House last June and was scheduled to come on for debate on or about June 12 of last year and it was suggested that it be left over, and the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing indeed more than suggested; asked that it be held over for a year for p~ople to be given an o~portunity to react· to it.

Over and above that, it is my understanding that that bill to a very large extent is .based upon the report and recommendations contained in the Henley Commission and numerous citizens of this·area appeared before and made representation to the Henley Commission . 1.0050

• • • • • • •e • • • June 13, 1978 . Tape no. 4326 Page 2 - ms Mr. Hickman • I have not ·seen the savage opposition as described by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I have seen requests and heard requests through the media of people wanting some further explanation on particular clauses contained therein, and I b~lieve.that my collegue , . the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing has been ready, willing and able to furnish such explanations and has furnished them in the main to the satisfaction of those who enquired. MR. NEARY: No! MR. HICKMAN: Those who were fortunate enough to see the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housi.ng on a recent programme on CBC would certainly, I think, be struck by the tremendous benefits that would accure to.people in this area when once that bill becomes law. Other than that my colleague, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs <'.nd Housing will, I believe, be .in his place on tomorrow, if not on tomorrow, certainly on Thursday, and it is not the intention to call that bill on Thursday ·sO hon •. gentiemen will once again have an opportunity to ask or to enquire of the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing as to any other·matters that may be concerning them with respect to this legislation. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker; we are not going to wait for the hon. gentleman. ~Je have no faith at all in the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir. We feel, .

M~. :Speaker; that in view of the mounting protests that the bill should be deferred and I am going to ask the minister to reconsider Bill 50, regional government, and lay the bill on the table of the House until the people have an opportunity to have some input in it which they have ·not had. so far. And the minister can ·tell the House all he·wants that this is so. It is not so. It is only now that'the people are getti~g interested in it. And, 10051

• • • • e • •• • • • June 13, 1978 Tape no. 4326 Page 3 - ms Mr. Neary . Mr. Speaker, what they are ma.inly concerned about in the. early stages of this regional government, Sir, is the appointment - MR. HICKMAN: What is the questio'n? MR. NEARY: I am coming to it, Sir.· - is the appointment of members of the board. Now is the government going to reconsider. this matter? This seems to be oneof the parts that the people are violently protesting. Will the minister consider this aspect of it and allow the.councils around the greater St. John's area and the City of St.

John's itself to elect their members to this board .rather than have them appointed that is if the government insist on goin9_ahead with this bill? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR: HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, firstly for the record,· Bil.l No. 50, being a bill, "An Act To Establish The Northeast Avalon Urban Region has been on the table of :10052

• • • •• e • • •e • • • • ~T-1 :~IC:::'?·.:i.: - t~is hen. ~:ause for nuite so~e ti:ne and ho>.s 'oeen ;:-.c>.de ?U,.,lic fer quite sotne til!'e, and there !1<>-',''1 h<!e':'.

Very ~eanir.gful .-:1.iscussio!'ls C(?.tl·:-een the hon. t~1P. '"'i:1ister t"f 'tnnici:pfll :\.ff~irs and Housinz and interestec! _grOtt?S goi:-13 On for a lon-;, !.o~.g ti:1a. !-!it~ respect ::o t:1e other COT':!ne~t: of t':e l1on. :ne!!lber for LaPoile (:1r. 'i;eary) t<ith respect to particular provisions of the i.:ill, tnat surely is the subject r-,attP.r for debate on second readir.£ • l-:e hear that this is a debe.ting forutl and surely t:-.at is the tiiUe to C:ebate that, and ••hilst, I a::1 sure, if i'!Y colleague ,,,as here he HOulcl not object to a debate durin~ Question Period it seer..s to me t:,at it is some•·,hat in violntion of the rnles.

A sup!'let::entary, Sir . Sup?le!:'.entary. Fon. ;,e,.,ber for !,afoile. Foulc! the ninister in<'icate to t::Ce ::ouse t~!at before tl-.is iJill is ra~ed t~r.ough anrJ s~-:_overl do~·:-n t::e t!-!roats of 'tile people ,._.;·,o live in ·t'le greater St. John's area, t::>.e ;.>eor>le the::-.sel •.rP.s ~-1ho live in the outs::irts of St.

John's, in the comunities that are invoJ.•.ret!, if they 1-rill be given a chance by secret ballot ir. a referenc:l.un or a plebisc:!.te to vote Hhetl-.er or not they •.;ant t':e t:;pe of rer;ional sovernment that is sp-:\llec out in this bill? ~;ill t~ey ~e given a:1 opportunity to express their vie•·.'S by secret b.~J.lot 1:-eforP. r-.•e nec';;te the matter he.re in t1":is House? l':on. ~oinister. I a711 on ve~r tic1:-.lish r.roo:::-1 r..o•·t, '~r. ~rea:·.er, ~ecause ! ,qm. going to have to evolv~ a ztrcng ~ri!lCi~le of t:,.e :.ibe::-::zl ~arty as laid c!mm t;y t!1eir lear..er, the ~ig:1t ;'on.

Pierre I:lliott TrudeP..u ~,;~1en 1 .1e Has asked last ?ear, or the ~rear before last, to ~~old a .secret hal lot, across _t::anac!a l:><:fore irr.plener>.ting controls. r•e sai(l t:,at a governnent tolat governs by secret 1;allot i.s ;c.ot governi:1g at all anrl that it ~-1ould he an insult to 1'arlii1v.ent to cv~n S11gg~st ~ as ~:e pnts it, that t:1ere shou~_,.f ~>e plebiscites on ratters t:,at fall ~ . .;ithir~ t~e legisJ.ative 1.0053

• • • • • • •e • • • Jur..e 13, 1978 . ., • ~I'. • Tape :1o. 4327 responsibility of ?arliau.ent • n~ ~ ... 1.-L I have said has t:o be sorne1,·hat tvithout prejudice but, again, I ar.1 preparec to rely on that ~-Tell-established Liberal dogma and doctrine. Eear, hear! I nost definitely Hould not see any nason <v!1y. t:<at course of action should be follolved. ':'C:l.ere will be good de;>ate, I l1ope, in this House, responsible debate in this Eouse - . .., l.w. .... 'iEAP.Y: Do not tvorry. You will get it . -' on this bill.

I !mow we "ill get deaate !Jut I 11as emphasi::ing the tvord, 1 responsible'. · Fesponsible debate.

And I have no doubt - You uill get more responsible debate than tve get responses to fire investigations . ~T .. i1IC!~.An: - !~d I nave no noubt that the hon. gentlenan opposite Hill pay particular heed to the hon. members respresenting this area,as I knoH I Hill, t>rho have har. very close l.iaison <Tith their people - Y2 .• :~EAiY: They are out of touch . - on this very vital matter and I ;rould he prepared to take a calculated risk and stigeest the.':, indeec., they are not out of - The hon. gentlemen >.;-ho represent the areas of St.

John 1 s anr' Fer:-yland and i:onception Bay South and Harhour ~~ain-Rell Is lane'. are, indeed, ve~1 nucC:J. in touch. You are loo!:ine at it from a vantare point on I".ennies ~!ill ~oad. '-T .• srr:AJ.(J:r.: The l1on. nember for l·Iindsor-~uchans to t>e follm-:ed by tl:e ~;on. gentler.;an from Eurgeo-!lay c' 1 Espoir. :"F .. FLIGET.l ~-'.r.

Speaker~ i!l ·t!-:.e ahsence of the T'rei"iier ar.d t!"!.e vinister of Energy, I ~:ant to r.!irP.ct t~is question to the .. ~inister of ?'inance anc:!, ohviously, ~1e l'lay have been the minister ,.,ho should :1ave been as::.ec t1-,e cruest:!.on in t:~e first place, I ;J.n not sure. I ;-;ould '''ant the minister to i!'.r!icate 1-1hether or not r.ollevino !:.rothers 1 tender is still hei!'!g co:-~sidere~ ':-'' l 1yc1ro, 10054

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 107~ Tape 'To. 4327 RT.-3 i·!R. · FL I GilT : t-~hether or not Col~_a,Tino are going to be given t~.e right to d.t!-.d:i:a~~ their tender ann :f.ncrease the amount tendered by around $4 ,son ;oon on the Hinds Lake project, lvhether or not C('l]avino is going to get the right to uithr!ra1~ their tender and increase the amount asked in that ter..der by $4 ,5~!) ,ono? :-s.. SPE.:\l~R; !'.on. Hinis ter. Hr. Speaker, I am not aHare that Collavino t•ere given the right to withdraw their tender . ?CR. IT.IGF.'!: That is ~•hat I am asking.. Are they? That is the question.

Are they going to be given that right? l·:::t. HICI::!-'AN: ~o my knowledge they. are not going to be given the right to. •nthdraw their tender . : 1\. F.: IGIIT: :-:r... SPEAKER: ER. 'FLIGHT : Supplementary, Hr. Speal~er. Supplementary. Could the i!inister of Finance tell the ;:ouse Hhether or not Collavino is cons:!.-J.ered a local coll'pany for the purpose of a ten percent leeway in the tendered price? ~-:e knm< that with the local contracting firms it is Government policy to allat·I the!'! a ten percent · differential in tendered price. :10055

• • • • e • • •e • • • • June 13, 19i8, Tape 4328, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: It does not apply to Collavino Brothers when they are tendering in opposition to local contractors. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge Collavino Borthers are not a Newfoundland company. But I say that, to my knowledge, because the practice has grown across Canada for large national companies to incorporate local companies. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR •. HICKMAN: t may - MR. NEARY: scandal (Inaudible). MR .. HICKMAN: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! For instance; Mr.

Speaker, if They are involved in a I take. it the han. gentleman from Buchans would like some fact