Manitoba Hansard — 9 March 1981 (Sitting 33A, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-33a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No. 33A- 2:00p.m., MONDAY, 9 MARCH, 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 9 March, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Ha rry E. Graham (Bir tle Russell): Pres enting Petitions . . . Read ing and Receivi ng Petitions . . . Pres enting Reports By Standing and Special Commi ttees. MINI STE RIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Char leswood ): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief but happy statement to make to the House. Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that you, Sir, and all Manitobans are extremely proud of the spectacular victory by the Kerry Burtnyk Rink, in winning the Canadian Brier Curling Championship yesterday. I am sure that all Manitobans will want to join us in extending congratulations and lauding the sportsm anship and the skill of the As siniboin e Memorial Club's youthful rink of Kerry Burtnyk, Mark Olson, Jim Spencer, and Ron Kammerlock. They have again put Manitoba in the very forefront of the curling game by bringing back to the province the Canadian Title, I believe for the 21s t time in the history of the Brier.

The best wishes of Manitobans go with them for continued success as they compete in the Si lver Broom World Championship later this month. May I also extend special congratulations to the Assi niboin e Club for the outs tanding and unprecedented feat of having captured two national championships within two weeks. Two weeks ago, it will be remembered, Kerry Burtnyk's clubmate, Mert Thompsett, skipped his rink to win the Canadian Junior Championship.

I would also, Sir, observe that Brandon has been selected as the site for the 19 82 Brier, and that the Burtnyk victory this week will create added excitement as Manitoba defends the Championship Tankard on home-ice next year. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I too, would like to extend our pleasure and I am sure this is shared by all members of this House, on the spectacular victory that indeed was achieved by the Kerry Burtnyk rink yesterday. Mr.

Speaker, we too, are most anxious to see this rink proceed to compete in the Silver Broom World Championship and I am sure that all Manitobans will be with this rink in heart, in seeing this rink pr.oceed towards victor y at the Silver Broom World Championship, and all our thoughts go with them in their endeavours. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of Activities under Sections 11 3( 1) and 11 4 of The Insurance Act. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside) introduced Bill No. 39, The Ecological Reserves Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rh ineland) on behalf of Mr. Len Domino (St. Matt hews), introduced Bill No. 40,

An Act to amend The Chartered Accountants Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this time I would like to introduce to the House, 12 students of Grade 12 standing from Precious Blood School in the constitu ency of the Ho nourable Memb er for St. Boniface. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that we would like to express favourable comments in respect to the Minister of Economic Development's decision this morning to launch a review of the Rural Small Enterprises Program, and I want to therefore ask the Minister, when was the decision made on the part of the Minister to launch the review of the program?

Was a decision arrived at just this past Saturday, or was it determined some time back; and if it was determined some time back to review this program, which has been in operation for over two years now, why did the Minister not make this announcement during the review of its estimates? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Stur geon Creek): Mr. Speaker, the review of the program was commenced approximately two-and-one-half months ago on the basis that is required in the agreement to have a review of the program and it has been commenced. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then further to the Minister: Can the Minister advise whether or not the review will be of an independent nature, done by those outside his department or will the review be done by the very offic ials that are pr esently administering the program? MR. JOHNSTON: It's being done by an independent group, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, then further to the Minister: Can the Minister advise us as to who is doing this review? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I will get that exact name for the honou rable member before the Question Period is over. 1441

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. PAWLEV: Mr.

Speaker, then further to the Min ister, is the Min ister committed to continue in this program for five years or is the Minister prepared, consequent upon the results of his review, to scrap this program and replace this program by a program that will indeed embark upon some form of economic strategy tha t will provide the small busine ss commun ity of Manitoba with some assistance in dealing with their rising in terest rates and dip in retail sales, rather than the program, as one busin essman commented upon the program in Saturday's paper, a pr ogram that in fact demonstrates that this government is sticking it to the small busi ness community in the province?

MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the program has had 14 5 applications approved, which is a total of $2.7 mill ion, by the Federal and Provi ncial Government which goes into the economy and the building up of small business in Manitoba ; but $2.7 million is not really the corr ect figure, Mr. Speaker, because we only put in 50 percent and the applicant puts in the rest. There has been $7.1 million inv ested in rural Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. The Small Busi ness Program was a very small part of the Enterprise Manitoba Program to assist small busine ss in the Province of Manitoba, within the rural area of Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to address a question to the Min ister of Economic Development.

Inasmuch as there are reports that $2.7 million of government money has been spent thus far on the Rural Small Enterprise Program with relatively few jobs being created, and since there is some suggestion that many recipients of grants would have started up or expanded anyway, will the Mi ni ster assure this Legislature that steps will be taken immed iately to see that procedures will be tightened up so that ther e will be less likeli hood of mone ys being squandered in the future? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the guidelin es were tightened up approximately six to seven months ago.

Fi rst of all, the gentleman, to the Leader of the Opposition, who said he referred to the province leading him down the wrong path, and I don't think those are the exact words; I can only say that the Leader of the Opposition, the Mem ber for Selkirk, asked for a report on that particular busi ness and he was given a comp lete update on it, I believe no more or less than a month ago. I have asked my department this morning if there's any further news to what he has already and we wou ld certainly provide it for him, Mr. Speaker.

The guidelin es of the program definitely have in the pamphlet that is di stributed that the person would certainly have to have the funds to advance the busi ness. Mr. Speaker, the unpubl ished guidelin es, which the applicant has to send to the department, will be on my desk this afternoon and we will be taking a review of that. I can only say, Mr. Speaker, I don't think anybody would really apply for assistance if he didn' t have some ideas of expanding. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well I'd like to the Min ister a supple mentary question, and I might add that there is a direct quote of a firm stating that they would have expanded anyway. My question relates to Arc Stone Enterpris es of Br andon, Mr. Speaker . A representative of that compa ny, which is now unfortunately in receiver ship, has ind icated tha t his company was forced to expand to take advantage of the grants. How many firms, Mr . Speaker -(lnt erjection) well this is the report in the paper. They were forced to expand to stay afloat. So my question is, Mr.

Speaker, the people of Manitoba, who are paying for these grants, have the right to know; how many firms in Manitoba are taking advantage of these grants and are being forced to expand, simply in attempt to stay afloat? MR. JOH NSTON: Mr. Speaker, I know of nobody who has been forced. The person applies for a grant and the Arc Industries referred to in the paper were the com ments of the foreman. I've asked the department to check into that statement regarding that very thoroughly so that I will have the report on my desk.

I also think the people of Manitoba should have the comments from the owner of the busi ness, not just the foreman. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EI NARSON: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I'd like to add ress another que stion to the Mini ster of Economic Development; a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please. A sup plementary question? The Honour able Member for Brandon East. MR. EI NAASON: Yes, a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is it correct that Mr.

Clair Coburn of Atom-Jet Industries in Brandon, who is reported to have received a small enterprise grant is also one of those indi viduals who was selected to comment on the Manitoba situation in the Min ister's television adver tising program on why we should stay in Manitoba? And if the Mini ster is not sure, would he verify that this indeed is the same individual? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOH NSTON: Mr. Speaker, the gov ernme nt didn't select anybody. The advertising company went out and asked peopie in different areas to make comments. Yes, I believe, Mr.

Coburn is the person who owns Atom-Jet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JU NE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Mini ster res ponsible for Autopac and, Mr. Speaker, the 1980 Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Ins urance Corporation stated that Autopac has spent approxima tely $1 million on the impr ovements to the Eaton Place location. Can the Min ister advise whether there have been any 1442

Monday, 9 March, 1981 additi onal expenditur es on that property since October 31st, 1980? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Government Services. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (M orris): Mr. Speaker, may I suggest to my honourable friend that you place that question before the Board when they appear before the committee which I hope will be very shortly. MS. WESTBURY: Well, Mr.

Sp eaker, I was addressing the question to the Minister responsible rather than to the Board who were appointed by the government and it was my understanding that the Treasur y benches usually answer questions of members of the Opposition benches. Is the Minister then not prepared to answer any questions relative to Autopac, Mr. Speaker? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, any matter dealing with the administration of Autopac is a matter that I believe would more properly be answered by the board or by Mr. Dutton.

And since provision is made for them to appear before committee to answer questions such as that, it would seem to me that wou ld be an appropria te opportun ity for my honourable friend to get answers to all her questions. MS. WESTBURY: Well then, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister is willing to answer a question relative to the government's policy on property on which the government holds the lease and I refer particulary to the Bank of Montre al Building at Portage and Hargrave on which the government held a lease effective until November 19 82, and can the Minister then tell us please what the present status of that lease is, according to government policy, and to what use that building is being put at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Government Services. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm afraid that I am going to have to take that que stion under advisement in order to determine just precisely the property that she is referring to. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to dir ect a qu est ion to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Due to the fact that de facto the International Joint Committ ee has now ceased to exist because President Reagan has not replaced the resigning members, and that there is only one person left who is on the International Joint Commission Board, can the Minister ascertain as soon as possible whether these steps in any way represent a danger that perhaps the United States is not giving its same commitment to the International Joint Commission, which is the only effect ive protection that the Province of Manitoba has with respect to the flow of waters from the United States to Manitoba? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. ENNS : Mr. Sp eaker, I bel ieve really the concern is premature in this instance. It's a long traditional practice of appointed persons in the American system to resign when the administration changes. No t a bad practice, by the way, Mr. Sp eaker. Really at this point in time there is absol utely no ind ication that the present administration in Washington do es not intend to appoint members to the Joint Commission; I would suspect that is the case.

The Commission, of course, is one that is called for by the treaty arrangements of the Bound aries Water Treaties between the two countries, and it would only be if these appointments were not made that we would have cause for concern. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a supplementary question.

In view of the fact, and I am only able to say this from media accounts, that in the past the resignations have been announced concurrently with new appointments, and this time the resignations have been announced and there have been no concurrent announcements of new appointments, could the Minister ascertain as to whether or not there is any concern on Canadian parts with regard to this procedure? MR. EN NS : Mr. Sp eaker, I would be happy to pursue that question with Otta wa officials.

I would have to presume that with such a goodly number of items pertaining to the work of this Commission, not just the Garrison Project here in Manitoba, but the acid rain question in central Canada, that the need for the Commission being fully staffed, fully manned, would be apparent to both countries involved. But I will take the advice of the Honourable Member for Inkster and attach that concern along to any other concerns that we will be advising External Affairs re the pending visit of the President this week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary. MR. GR EEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the Minister's present solicitude with regard to the existence of the International Joint Commi ssion, which we regard as a civilized way of dealing with these questions, would the Minister also think it useful to contradict, to repudiate, the cavalier way, in which the Pr ovinc e of Manitoba through his prede cessor, sought to satisfy some petty political di fferences in Dominion City, by repudiatin g the report of the International Joint Commission, with regard to the Roseau River and therefore putting all activit ies in Canada's vie w, with regard to International Joint Comm ittee reports, which we should be endorsing, rather than repudiating, so that the United States will not take similar action and repudiate reports which they don't happen to agree with.

MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I have learned long ago, in this Ho use, that the Ho nourable Memb er for Inkster has a favourite debating technique and that is to make an assumption first of all, and assume that assumption is right. I don't accept that assumption in this instance and therefore his su bsequent eloquent argument do esn 't follow through. 1443

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. SPt=AKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: My question is to the Mini ster of the Environment. Last Saturday there was a leak of hydrogen sulphide from a tank car on the CN line in the town of The Pas, and I wonder if the Mini ster could tell the House exactly what happened in that case and what involv emen t or what action was taken by his department, or will be taken by his department. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON : Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker.

The information that I have received from my officials on it indi cates that a CN train headed for Thompson made a stop in the rail yards at The Pas on Saturday and that the car was owned by Montana Sulphur of Billings, Montana and was being shipped to INCO. it contained hydrogen sulphide and a slight odour of hydrogen sulphide had been detected in the yards. CN perso nnel contacted the local fire depa rtltie nt, who in turn, contacted Canutek in Ottawa. They in turn contacted EMO and the duty officer contacted a representative of our Provincial Environmental Control Services.

Workpla ce Safety and Health were duly notified as well, and levels of emission were checked in the air surrounding the car and in the yard and it was determined that they were not at any hazardous levels. Our understanding is that all of the cars were checked out and the shipment and they were satisfied that whatever caused the incide nt was repaired and it took about 30 minut es for that. The train was then released at 3:00 a.m. to continue on to Thompson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Sp eaker, I wonder if the Min ister can confirm tha t this toxic, and unde r certain cir cu mstance s explos ive chemical, was leaking in an area which is located beside a bulk gas and oil storage area and also near two residential areas. MR. FI LMON: Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that at the present ti me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR.

McBRYDE: I wonder if the Mini ster of the Environment cou ld confirm whether this was the same chemical being shipped by the same chemical company, to the same mining company, that leaked in the same area about the same time last year, and whether the Minis ter could tell us whether the Province of Manitoba in his Environmental section, will be investigating this incident or whether they'll be leaving it entir ely up to the CN to investigate the problem. MR. FilMON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, in fact I've asked my department to prov ide me with additio nal information and to look into the incident further. MR.

SP EAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: My question is the Minis ter of Labour, and I'd ask the Min ister if he can inform the House as to what action he or his department is taking in response to the allegedly wide spread practise of some temporary help agencies, failing to forward unclaimed wages at1d unclaimed benefits to the Provincial Government, as required under The Payment of Wages Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Labour. HON. KEN Ma cMASTER (Thompson): Well, Mr. Speaker, we read with some confusion the same

article I think the Member for Churchill read. I say confusion because the

article that we read in the paper today is so incomplete and so inco rrect that our department didn 't really know how to go at it. We are presently going to contact the writer of the article, the reporter and the newspaper and review with them the confusion of facts and the lack of facts and the in correctness of the particular article. MR. COWAN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps the Mi nister can then be more specific as to what is confusing his department and himself in this

article and what inaccuracies they have been able to find in that

article and provide the Ho use with that information at this time. MR. Ma cMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I don't wish to waste the time of the House of going through what our department has found as ina ccuracies as relates to that article. We intend to talk to the reporter who wrote the art icle and talk to the newspaper themselves. MR. SP EAKE R: The Ho no ur able Memb er for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN : Mr.

Sp eaker, I would alm ost be certain that the Mini ster would want this to be made public, as it has already been made public through the media, and that he would want to use every opportunity that he has, to correct the public record. We would ask him specifically; we do not consider it a waste of the Hous e's time. We'd ask him specifically right now, to point out exactly what ina ccuracies were found in that

article . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is repet itive and I would suggest the Honourable Member has already asked the question previously. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I can rephr ase the question.

I would ask the Mini ster if, as well as meeting with the media reporter, he is going to dir ect his department to investigate the situation because they have said in the newspaper that they don't have the staff available to make routine in vestigations and therefore there must be special in vestigations; I'd ask him if he is going to dir ect his department to make special investigations in order to ensure both himself and this House, that there is not any widespr ead abuse of the process. 1444

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, if you were to go by the headlines and go by the story, you would believe that there was widesp read abuse of this particular situation. We'r e satisfied there is not widespread abuse of the situation and we're also satisfied that the story is again, I repeat, fairly, completely, incorrect. MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie. HON. LLOYD G. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to dir ect a question to the Minister of Agriculture, if I may.

Can the Minister report to the House on the announcement of the $15 mi llion distributing storage plant being built at Bloom Siding just west of Portage Ia Prairie, for the storage of anhydrous ammonia? MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, to the Member for Portage and the rest of the people of Manitoba, I hope to give it a lot better coverage than the weekend paper gave it in the City of Winnipeg. When in fact, Mr. Speaker, we see an invest ment of some $15 mi llion to servic e the agricultural community in rural Manitoba, I'm indeed very pleased. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I would appreciate the co-operation of all members of the Chamber, so I can hear the answer, anyway. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, it's interesting, again the members opposite do not want to sit and listen when something positive happens in rural Manitoba. We are indeed pleased , Mr. Speaker, that the confiden ce is there to servic e the agric ultur al community. I notice in the Portage paper where in fact they gave them tremendous coverage and we are pleased to see that kind of development is taking place in Portage Ia Prairie. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, just by way of a further question to the Minister of Agriculture, I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture could advise, rather than damning the press for their failure to report, just what has happened to that quarter of a millio n dollars worth of communicators that his government have hired in the last few months. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I did not really criticize the press for not having it, I was indicating where it happened to end up in the press, but it's unfortunate that the only time members opposite can talk about fertilizer or something that would support the farm community is a leak that takes place in The Pas that in fact is under control by the peo ple who are handling it. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Manitoba can judge on where the positive input is coming from and I have to say that I am pleased that it's coming from this side of the House and I am pleased that those kinds of announcements are being made. MR.

SPEA KER : The Ho nourable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Labour and it arises out of reports that the nurses at the three municipal hospitals are considering going on strike now that the City of Winnipeg has rejected a memorandum of agreement that supp osedly was accepted by both sides. I would like to ask the Minister if he's investigated this matter to determine whether in fact there has been bargaining in good faith on both sides? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Sp eaker, the

partie s the mselves are in the negotiating pr ocess and whether the nurses have taken to strike or not, that do esn't dete r the fact from the pos sibi lity of negotiations with all parties. MR.

PARASIUK: I would like to ask the Minister if he in fact has reviewed this situation in view of the fact that it is not the first time that the City Council has turned its back and reje cted, in th e fi rst instance, an arbi tr ation award with respect to firemen, and now in this instance, a memorandum of agreement that supposedly was reached thr ough their negotiators at their instructions, and now that it became publi c they've tu rned their back on that particular memorandum of agreement, leaving the whole situation in limbo, and the public facing a very serious situation as a result of that.

Is he satisfied that collective bargaining took place in good faith in that first instance, and took place in good faith in this particular instance? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I can understand the dif ficulty of the Memb er for Transcona not understanding the negotiating process, never having been there. He has to appreciate that what has taken place today, in my opinion, is in fact part of the negotiating process. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: Seeing as how the Minister of Labour isn't particularly concerned whether in fact we have a strike at three municipal hospitals that will further plug up other hospitals with elderly people, I'd like to ask the Minister of Health, if they have developed any contingency plans to ensure that elderly people in the three municipal hospitals will indeed be looked after and will not plug up unnecessarily other hospitals through their removal because of a breakdown in the collective bargaining process? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): No, Mr. Speaker.

I was asked that question I bel ieve on Friday, and I replied that we have developed no contingency plans in the conventional sense. I said on Friday, and I repeat, that the province doesn't intend to see the chronic care long-stay patients in the municipal hospitals, including polio patients, depri ved of their nursing care. 1445

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Kildona n. MR. PETER FOX: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Attorney-General and ask him whether he's received any communi cations from the Energy and Chemical Workers Union, Local 68 1, in respect to a complaint that indicated irregular practi ces by the RCM P in appr ehen ding and stopping a number of pickets? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERC IER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I received a letter from Mr. Martin of the Federation of Labour. MR.

FQ)!(: Wo uld the chie f law officer indic ate whe ther he will be having an in vestiga tion to consider whether there was due process in respect to enforcement on the hig hways of Manitoba? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have asked my department to review the allegations tha t are contained in that letter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Me mb er fo r Min nedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is di rected to the Minis ter responsible for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporat ion.

A headline report in last Friday's paper indicated that the Jan uary housing starts in Winn ipeg were down 47 percent from last year. I wonder if the Min ister could inform the House what is the situation with housing starts in February compared with February last year in the City of Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question. I would like to say that the February housing starts in Manitoba as compared to the January housing starts in Manitoba for this same year, were up by 17 5.7 percent. Further to that, Mr.

Speaker, the change of February 19 81, as compared to February 19 80, showed an in cr ease of 484.8 percent. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mb er fo r Rossmere. MR. VIC SC HROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: My question follows on the previou& questio n. Fir st of all, I trust that those aren't mobile homes being readied to leave the province, but whatever they are, in view of the fact that he has these statistics ready at this time, can he tell us what the percentage in crease from February of 19 77 to February of 1981 is?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Consum!:lr and Corporate Affairs. MR. FIL MON : Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice and bring that . . . MR. SC HROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Min ister advise as to the in crease in February of 1981 over February of 19 78 then? I'm sure he would have that at his finger tips . MR. FILMON: No, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I don't have that right at my fingertips, but on the other hand I do have the information that ind icates that from Febr uary 1980 to Febr uary 1981, in Saska tchewan housing starts were down 26.9 percent. MR.

SPEAKER: Or der, please. The Hon our able Member for Rossmere. MR. SC HROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just so we can get the percentages int o some perspective, I wonder whether the Mini st!:lr might tell us how rnany houses were built in Manitoba in February of 1981? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: 484.8 percent more than in 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EI NARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to dir ect this question to the Min ister of Agriculture.

This qu estion is on behalf of the farmers of Manitoba, who are in the production of dairy butter and those who may wish to get into that busine ss. I wonder if the Mini ster of Agriculture has had any consultation with the Federal Min ister of Agriculture and the Canadian Dairy Commission in regards to the prices that farmers are receiving for dair y butter and if he has not had discussions with him, whether he could inform the members of this House whether he will have discussions to decide whether inc reased prices on dairy butter could be realized as compared to the price of other dairy products? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWN EY: Mr. Speaker, I have concern about some of the developments that are taking place within the Dair y Industry, p<!rticularly on the process of co nsultatio n between Federal and Provincial Governments. I've had a letter from the Federal Mi nister of Agricultur e to di scuss the national dairy policy, but in that letter, Mr.

Speaker, he invited the Milk Producers Marketing Board of Onta rio , he invited the Milk Producers of Quebec to partici pate, as well as the National Farmers Union to sit in and partici pate in that meeting; but he did not see fit to invite the Provincial Government to participate, but in fact sit and ob serve what was going on; something, Mr. Speaker, that I do not think is in the best in terests of the Federal-Provincial negotiations and I think he's got his thinking somewhat reversed. lt should be all the dairy farmers of Canada as well as, Mr.

Speaker, the Provincial Governments and have such or ganizations as the Farmers Union and Farmers Or gan izatio ns sit as obs ervers at this particular time. I am going to be looking forward to further dis cussions with the Federal Min ister on such imp ortant issues. 1446

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his answer.

In view of that answer and because of the problems I recall having, when I sat on that side of the House insofar as the producers of butter were concerned and also in regards to the plants throughout the Province of Manitoba in th e production of butter, and the concern that they had of their elimination because of the lack of concern the Federal Government and previous Provincial Government had in regards to the farmers producing dairy butter, I wonder if the Minister will inform this House as to whether or not he's going to also take those things into his discussions when dealing with this particular problem.

MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the point that has to be made is that when we do discuss agricultural policy, and particula rly with the dair y ind ustr y because there is a large segment of it controlled by the Federal Government, that in fact that we do put the case of the Manitoba dairy farmer before the Federal Government and we plan to do that, Mr. Speaker, in a very effective way. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and congratulate him on the construction of that duplex, which certainly helped the figur es in construction in the past year. Can he give us the number of housing units constructed in January, howeve r, rather than the percenta ges and a comparison of the past year? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the number of units constructed in February of 198 1 was 193. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Minister if he has any idea of how many houses or housing units were demolished in the same month or destroyed by fire? MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USK IW: I wou ld like to ask the Minister of Agriculture whether he would care to clarify for the Assembly a statement that he gave with respect to the role that he thought the Canadian Wheat Board should be playing on behalf of the Grain Producers of Western Canada, and whether or not he considers the Wheat Board Adviso ry Committee of any use in its present form? MR. DOWNEY: Well, with some of the recommendations that are coming forward, Mr.

Sp eaker, I would think that some of the recommendations should be questioned. The reason I say that is because they have suppor ted the return of all the feed grains to the control of the Canadian Wheat Board, which in fact would force Western Canadian farmers to sell their gr ain to Eastern Canadian feeders at less money than they can get on the international market. That was the case last fall. I don't know what the specifics are at this particular time, but I think with that kind of advice the farmers of western Canada would be a lot better if they didn't have it. MR. USK IW: Mr.

Speaker, now that the Minister has confirmed that he sees no useful role for the present Advisory Commit tee to the Canadian Wheat Board, what is he recommending that should replace that Advisor y Commi ttee, whether it should be another producer group and whether or not he believes that the elected process to that Commit tee is not working to the advantage of the Canadian farmer? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, as the Member would try and have the public believe, I did not say that the Advisory Board could not play a useful role, I was more talking about the advice that they were giving the Canadian Wheat Board.

I think there's a lot more room for farmers to ha ve input to the Canadian Wheat Board, something that they do not have today. I think that there are many instances where in fact the poli cies that are being fol lowed by the Canadian Wheat Board are policies of the Federal Government. The appointed senators who do not represent any farmers in Western Canada. In fact, I think, Mr. Speaker, there should be some major changes that would give farmers the proper input and control into their marketing board for their grains, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final supplement. MR.

USK IW: Mr. Speaker, I want the Minister to confirm or otherwise the fact that elected advisory commit tees to agencies such as the Canadian Wheat Board are considered to be the approach and the best way to get across to the Whea t Bo ard Commis sioners the rank and file, or what others would call grass-roots viewpoint of how the Wheat Board ought to be operating, and if that is not satisfactory to this Minister, I wonder if he could clarify for us just what methods he would propose since he has no confidence in the Adv isor y Committee as it's presently structured, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, there are one or two difficulties that I see with the Advisory Committee and that, of course, is that there are grain companies as well as producers at large elected to the Advisory Board and I think that that's a concern that many people have had, that it is in fact controlled by the Grain Companies, that's one concern of the particular setup. Another one is, Mr. Speaker, as I've indicated many times, I do not believe with the policies that we've seen coming from the Wheat Board, that in fact it's representing those farmers who are the - it's supposed to be working for their best interests.

As much as it is in the areas of our other producer boards, which operate within the provinces, where in fact they are represented by producers who are elected to th ose boards, whether it's the Dairy Board, whether it's the Broiler Board, whether it's in fact the Turkey Board or the Egg Board, they are producers representing themselves in opposite ways in which the Canadian Wheat Board represents the 1447

Monday, 9 March, 1981 farmers thr ough appoi ntments by the Federal Government without the control of any farmers having any say, just as advisers to that particular body. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Time for Question Period having expi red we' ll proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DA V MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, if I might just advise the House of two matters.

Firstly, it is likely that on Wednesday of this week we will introduce Interim Supply after dealing with the E!ills that are on the Order Paper that d<!Y. and one other small change with respect to the order of the Estima tes tha t I' ve dis cussed with the Opposition House Leader; following a completion of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment and Finance in the House, Education will follow Finance and precede Energy and Mines. Mr. Spaaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources and Mr.

Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs and Environment, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpo wer. CONCURRENT CO MMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR.

CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I believe it was left off last week . . . and the Member for Churchill has first signal and I see. the Member for Logan is trying, maybe signal as to which one wants the floor; I am quite willing. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, will we go dir ectly into Civil Service ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRVDE: Mr.

Chairperson, my question to the Min ister relates to some quite lengthy comments I made earlier in terms of the safety of logging truck drivers and my intention was to take the Hansard and se11q it qver to the Minister of Hig hways as well, so he could fully aware of that situation. I think that is one time that our debates didn' t reco rd, so I don't have that opportunity.

I wonder if the Min ister could just ind icate to me whether he has an opportunity to talk to the Mini ster of Highw ays about that problem of logging truck dri vers having to climb on their loads when they are overloaded or whether he has had an oPf'J!'tft!Jnity to explore that further, and if he hasn't, whf'Jther he will do that with the Mi nis ter of Hig hways. MR. CHAIRMAN: The 1-jonourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr .

Chair man , once I get through with my Estima tel'f, ! hope to explore that, not only just in passing po[wersation but to have a good talk with the MiniS tt:!f pf Highw ays on it. lt was for your sake, Mr. Chair man. I considered it a very valid point that the Mef'l§t=!r fgr The Pas raised as it related to truck drivers am:l UJe dealings they have with the roads in the manner in which it's loaded and unloaded; it was a good point. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Just briefly, perhaps the Min ister can use this opportunity to elaborate upon the comments he made in the Question Period in respect tq the inconsistencies in the

article on job agencies and accusations th<!t they were violating the labour law, which the Min ister sugg ested at that time did contain ina ccuracies and some confusing statements, so perhaps he can use this opportunity to be more specific in what he found to be ina ccurate in that article. MR. MacMASTER: I don't in tend to be mo re specific except to tell the member opposite that there was a great deal of information given to the reporter by our department which was not included. There were portions of the information left out which gives the

article a misleading perspective. There are facts and figures in there that by themselves give misleading information and misleading ind ications. The department has simply said to me that they want to review the entir e

article because in fact they say it's more than mi sleading; some portions of it are in accurate, and we intend to thoroughly review the article; intend to thoroughly review the information that was given to the reporter; thoroughly review the entire situation of the agencies t!lat they are making reference to, and when I have all that information, we intend to deal with it. MR. COWAN: When the Mini ster has all tha t information, is he prepared then to provide it in a public way to the Opposition? MR. MacMASTER: I intend to deal initially with the

article itself because it is miliilfili'!d ing, and therj3'S no question, that information as to what the situation, I can make available, there's no problem with that at all. MR. COWAN: If that's the case and even although we would like to discuss the matter further now and would like the Min iStt:!f to be able to provide us with some mqre inf or mation now, I guess we are going to have to accept the Mi nister's reticence in respect to pro vidin g that information. I hope that it is only necessary in order to allow him time to fully appraise hims elf and acquaint hi mself with his department's objections to the

article and that it is in no way reticence which would be in tended to take hi s answers out of the public realm. Because I think as the

article was a public article, it was a front page article, as it has left an im pression, I believe it is important that the Min ister also publicly provide his depart ment's answer to that, whether in fact it makes the department looks as if it's doing its job or 1448

Monday, 9 March, 1981 not. I think it's only fair that when an issue like this is brought forward, that the Minister be prepared to make the types of public statements on it which will clarify the issue, either that something is going to be done, if in fact there are inadequacies in the system as it exists today or that in fact the information contained in the article, according to the department, is not what it should be and the Minister would then provide the correct information. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, I intend to do that about this

article and I intend to do it about future articles. There's just been too many articles in my opinion that have left the public with a viewpoint that is not always totally correct. So I intend to research particular articles very thoroughly if the public is being misled, as I think they are in this particular article. MR. COWAN: Well, the Minister has now opened Pandora's box, because he says or he thinks there are other articles which are misleading as well. Can he be more specific as to what he believes those articles were? MR.

MacMASTER: I didn't say others in the past; I said if there's others in the future, I intend to. MR. COWAN: Wel l, the Minister is indicating he didn't say others in the past, but he said others in the future. And now not only is the Pandora's box he's opened, but he's opened as phrophet and I only hope he's wrong, although all of us have to take it upon ourselves to review

article as they come out and to correct them where necessary, where we belie ve it is necessary and try to get the right information out. I don't want to belabour the Minister's Salary and I assure you that I have personal reasons for that, as we are shortly going into the Environment Estimates in the other committee and I will have to be leading off in there. There are other questions that I would like to ask. I guess it will just have to wait for another opportunity or perhaps my colleagues will discuss those issues in more detail.

I just want it on the record that the reason that we are not discussing them at this point, is because of the two-committee system and that some times we find it necessary for us as MLAs to miss one committe e in order to live up to responsibility in another committee. But I do want to talk about one specific issue before leaving this committee and that is in respect to the Swift's closure. And I would just like to read into the record an excerpt from a letter to Mr.

Bill Blaikie, MP, Winnipeg Bird's Hill, from the Minister of Manpower and Labour, dated September 25th, 19 79, in which he is quoted as saying, "Our information is that other plants in industry are operating below capacity and will be capable of handling the expected increase in the supply of livestock in regard to the Swif t's closu re ." Yet when we find the Chair man's report from the Joint Manpower Adjustment Committee, we find that in fact there were no jobs that were - perhaps I should go back and read another quote from that to make certain that we have all information available to us.

The Minister also said, "In addition, an expected increase in livestock supply should also help to alleviate the situation as this will enable other plants and industry to hire many of the effected workers." And yet when we get the report from the Joint Manpower Adjustment Committee, we find that in fact other industry, in the meat packing sector, were unable to hire many emp loyees coming off of the Swift's line, and I ask the Minister if that is expected to be the situation as well in respect to Maple Leaf Mills? MR. MacMASTER: I haven't got a viewpoint on that particular situation.

I do know that it was said and I don't know where, that some of the other plants were in fact operating with Jess than capacity as far as stock went. Now whether they were carrying more people than was necessary and could in fact take up the extra stock which went someplace with similar numbers of emp loyees, I don't know, and I can't tell you what will happen to the Maple Leaf situation. I haven't had the latest update on that particular committee. MR.

COWAN: Is the Minister's department doing any follow-up studies on the emp loyees who were laid off as a result of the Swift's closure in order to determine in fact if their programs are efficient and are working? MR. MacMASTER: Not a study per se, I haven't read the last document, I can't remember what the last document said as it related to relocation and other jobs that were available for the Swift's people. MR.

COWAN: The reason I asked these questions is because throughout the Swift's closure episode, we kept getting assurances from the Minister of Labour, from the Minister of Economic Development, and the Minister of Agriculture that this was not going to have that profound an impact on the economy and that in fact, I think the Minister's words were that the empl oyees were going to be gob bled up by other emplo yers and that there wouldn't be that great an impact on the individuals.

As a matter of fact, in that Jetter which I quoted from earlier, the Minister is quoted as saying, "While we are also concerned with events that might have adverse effects in terms of higher consumer prices, or in terms of general negative effects on the economy, we have no reason to believe that the closure of the Swift's plant will have such effects in Manitoba." But, if you read the report and the conclusion of the Chairman's report on the Swift Canadian closure, he says, "The closing of a plant of the magnitude of Swift Canadian Limited Plant in Winnipeg has a very direct and serious im pact on tile local economy as a whole and a very specific and serious impact on emplo yers in related indt.;stries and their emplo yees who are dependent upon the plant for their livelihood as well as Swift's employ ees.

The im pact of closing the plant therefore becomes very important not only to the individual emp loyees but to the community as a whole." I think those are two contradictory statements and I would hope that the government would take these plant closures more seriously in the future because they are having a definite impact on the economy, the y are having a definite imp act on indi vidu al empl oyees, and it's something that we will bringing 1449

Monday, 9 March, 1981 forward during the course of this Session, I hope. I expect to be able to bring it forward during the course of this Session by way of a Private Members' Bill or Resolution perhaps if necessary, and we 'll be discussing it at that time. but I didn't want to let the Estimates slip by without having those on the record, because I think they are imp ortant statements and I hope they do encourage the gov ernment to take more positive action.

Normally under this provision of the Estimates it is customary for the critic to make a closing statement of some length, and I just want to assure the Mini ster that I am going to make a closing statement, but because of my other ob li gations it won't be of that usual length. I wo uld also assure the Chai rperson that I have tried to move as quickly as possibly through this portion of the Estimates and intend to follow through with that assurance to him. I wo uld just like to take this op por tunit y to welcome him back to the Chair , and note that he is looking very healthy and relaxed and rested.

But the Estimates this year, Mr. Chair person, and you mis sed some of them, although you were here for the most of them, have been generally di sapp ointing for Members of the Opposition, and I think for the public as well. There were a fe w areas in all fairness that we beli eve a goo d job has been done by the department, specifically in the area of the Career Resource Centre and specifically in the area of fir e protection in the north and we have in very strong terms commended the Mini ster for his dir ection and his efforts.

In equally strong terms, I think it's imp ortant to condemn the Minis ter, because he has to take ulti mate responsib ility for the department, wher e we believe they have been negligent in their duty. We are es pecially co ncerned about what we perceiv e to be a lack of priorization for activities of the department in the occupational health and safety area. We are disapp ointed that the Mi nister has chosen to reject the advic e of the Advis ory Council in respect to the designati on of mand atory committees as provided for under the Act.

As you know, as it was determin ed in our conversations earlier in these Estimates, the Advis ory Cou ncil rec omm en ded a proc ed ure whe re by far more commit tees would have been developed. That advice was passed in the Advisory Council and forwarded to the Mini ster. The Min ister, for a number of months, and perhaps years now, has been assu ring us th at he was awaiting the advice of the Advis ory Council, before moving on the further designation of committees.

When he got that advice, it appears as if he rejected it. lt appears as if he in fact took the advic e of others, or perhaps made a decision on his own to proceed in the way that he did and we think that that is to the detriment of the many workers who wo uld have benefited by a larger group of mandatorily designated comm ittees. The Min ister and I and others have chosen to dis agree on this. He beli eves that his process is better than the process put forward by the Advisory Council.

I believe that the Advisory Council had the right idea in respect to these comm ittees and we do fe el that a dis service has been don e to the thousands of workers, who would have had the protection of manda torily desi gna ted Wo rkp lace Safety and Health Commi ttees, if the advice of the Advisory Council had been follow ed. We also have to point out that there are no regulations under The Workp lace Safety and Health Act as of yet. We had expected them. They had been promised to us by the Min ister in Estimates passed. There are none. He says that there are going to be some coming forward shortly.

Perhaps we will have to wait until next Estimates to see if that prom ise is upheld. However, given the experie nces we 've had in previous Estim ates where those promises were made and not fo llowed thr ough , we are so me what sceptical, that in fact they will be followed through in this case. Those regulations are imp ortant. The Workpla ce Safety and Health Act cannot stand alone. lt must be im proved, it must be clarified, it must grow with our experie nce. Regulations are an essential part of that process. They supplement the act and without them, you are not allowing the Act to be as effective

an Act as it should be. We are especially di sappointed that the Mi nister could not bring forward more in fo rmation and highlight more progress on the two special programs, which were outlined in last year's Throne Speech; the carcinogen study program and the hearing loss study program. There are no regulations that are put before us yet, although the Min ister indicates they will be coming shortly. He did that last year.

The gov ernment has admitted to the priority of these programs by announcing them in the Throne Speech and yet we see that very li ttle appears to have been done, or at least very little that the Mi nister can provide detail on has been done under these two programs. We said that before, we said that we felt the problems were too large for these programs to work effectively in the way in which the government was pursuing their objectives.

We have said that there needed to be more people involved; that there needed to be more resources involved, and we have recognized, along with the government, that these are pr iority areas and any delay in them is a di sservic e to the workers of this province, so we have to condemn the lack of action or the apparent lack of actio n, or at least the lack of detail, on what has been accomp lished under those programs .

In the area of prosecutions, we believe that the government has to play a mor e active stance, and we've di scussed this matter before and we 'll discuss it aga in, but we do think by not pursuing an active stance in respect to this concern that they are in fact allowing many reticent employers to continue not living up to the act because they know that it is unlikely that they would prosecuted for any violations of the act We are also concerned that informational bulletins and newsletters which were promised in Estimates past have not been developed to the extent to which they were promis ed.

We know that in order to fully enable workers of this province to enjoy the full benefits of the act, they have to be informed as to their rig hts, they have to be informed as to hazards they may face , and they have to be kept generally aware of new developments with the legislation within their own workpla ces, and the informational bulletins which were promis ed and the newsletters which were promis ed could play that sort of role. We 1450

Monday, 9 March, 1981 note there have been some informational bulletins that have been brought out and fo rwarded by the Mini ster, howeve r, we believe that there have not been nearly enough. We are conc er ned about the staf fing levels remaining wha t I consider to be far too low in the Workpla ce Safety and Health Division. We would have liked to have seen an incr ease in staffing, more of an incr ease, there was an incr ease in staffing, but more of an incr ease in staffing and mor e of an incr ease in funding in order to make that program work better. lt can be done.

I need only mention to the Mini ster the incr eases in staffing and funding that were applied to the Career Resource Ce ntre . I woul dn't want to take that money away from them. They play a very vital and imp ortant role, howeve r, I do think that the Workp lace Safety and Health Division was worthy of that sort of an incr ease and that sort of a staffing level as well. We do not think that the government has placed enough priority on Workpla ce Safety and Health. We think that the statistics bear out that charge.

We know that as we find more and more information out about the hazards which workers face , we know that we need to put more and more of a priority behind our efforts in protecting them at the workplace. We are also disappointed that the Mi ni ster is not going to be appointing a Chief Occupational Medical Officer as had been promised in earlier Esti mates, expli citly so. Ther e was no doub t in my mind, because there was no room for in terpretation of the statement.

The Mini ster had promised that he would be appointing that person in short order at last year's Estima tes, and we talked about it before in other contexts and he had promised before that he knew the problems and that he was going to be providing us with that requir ement as under the law.

The Min ister is in fact in violation of the law by not fo llowing thr ough on his ea rli er pr om is es; not because he promised it, but because there is a requirement in the law that there shall be a Chief Occup ational Med ical Office r and the re is not allowed any di scretionary power on the part of the Min ister; a di scretionary power which he has taken upon himself. So, for that, we think he has to be severely criticized because not only is it a lack of action but it is a violation of the Act.

In respect to the em ployment standards and violations of the act, and the Min ister refusing to make public the in formation which is of a public nature anywa y, through filing in the county court system, we again criti cize the Minist er.

We critic ize the Min ister that he has chosen to take what appears to be a very cumbersome and bureaucratic method to provide some protection to domestics in this provi nce ; that he has not chos en to er ase discrimi natory provisions of the law which exist now, which have existed for quite some time, I might add, and his government is not the only government to fail to deal with that problem. But we do believe that given the information of today, given the activity in other jurisd ictions that this should have been action on the part of the Min ister.

And again generally as to the labour statistics in this province, we have given the statistics in the beginning of the Estim ates, through our opening remarks, we 'll just go over them briefly again. We think that they are imp ortant because they show a failur e of the gov ernment to provide the type of in novativ e and imagi nativ e programs which would encourage the development of jobs in this province. lt must be noted that in 19 80 as compared to 1979 our unemployment rate is up. lt is higher this year than it was last year. That is at a time when the Canadian average unemployment rate stayed the same.

That is at a time when five other provinces showed decreases in their unemployment rate for the same period; Manitoba's incr eased. That translates into an in crease in the number of unemployed, 1, 000 more persons on average this year in 1980 were unemployed as compared to on average in 1979. That's a sign ificant incr ea se in the numb er of unemployed; that at a time when net out-migration is taking place at unparalleled levels.

Also it must be noted that the labour force growth was the lowest in the countr y, that it was one half of the national average at 1. 7 percent, and that the inc reases in empl oyment opportunities suffe red a simila r fate under the last year of the Conservativ e Government. Those are all areas of concern to us. There are others, but as I said, unfortunately I have to be in the other comm ittee as soon as I can, and what I have tried to do is highlight those areas which we feel should be priority areas with the gov ernment.

We do not in tend to belittle any of the other areas or denigrate any of the other areas of concern that we have by not mentioning them at this point , but we do believe that these had to be specifically pointed out. I thank the Mini ster and the comm ittee for the op po rtun ity to do that. I kn ow we will have opportunity in the futur e to discuss them in more detail. MR. CH AIR MAN :

Be it resolved that there be gr anted to Her Ma jesty a sum not excee ding $1 ,590,400 for Labour and Manpower - pass. SUPPL V - CIVIL SERVIC E MR. CH AI RMAN: We are now in the Civil Service Estima tes, Page 21 , 1. (a) - the Honour able Min ister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I have an opening state ment in re lati o nship to the Civil Servic e Commission. I would lik e to take this opportunity to review some of the activities undertaken by the Civil Service Commission over the past year in impl ementing gov ernment pol icy as it re lates to pers onnel manag ement.

Much of the activity of the Civil Service Commission during 19 80 was dir ected towards the ongoing development impl ementation of many of the programs and in itiatives that were introduced and di scussed dur ing last year's Estima tes. As an example, Mr. Chairman; much of last year's debate focused on a decision of the Commission to delegate recruitment and selection of authority to certain departments, as provided within The Civil Service Act. During 19 80, ten such delegation agr eements were concluded and approximately 500 competitions were successfully conducted under delegated authority.

As indi cated last year, these competitions were subject to close audit and review by the Civil Servic e Commission to ensure that the competitions were conducted in accordance with the standards and 1451

Monday, 9 March, 1981 criteria s�t out in the delegation agreements and The Civil Ser�ice Act. Some 300 competition audits were completed during 19 80 and contrary to what the members opposite would have lead us to believe last year, the process has been working extremely well with dep artments having exercised their delegated authority both responsibly and effectively. There· has been no evidence of an increase in appeals or grievances, as a result of delegation, and adminis tratively the process ing time ha s been significantly decreased.

Recruitment time from the start of the advertising process to a formal job offer has been reduced from an average of 56.5 working days to less than 40 working days, for those departrn!':lf!tS with delegated authority. As ei'IF,h Hepartment completes one full year under the deleljfjted authority agreement, a compreil€lll§ive audit report on the department's competitions will be completed and a formal report provided to the Commission and the department concerned.

Signi ficant effort has been devoted by the Commission staff over the past year towards the development of a management classification and compensation plan for emp loyees currently excluded from 'the various collective agreements. This exc luded ma na gement profes sional group and government has not been reviewed or evaluated in over ten years. The objective of the classification plan is to re-establish equity and consistency in classifications among senior management positions across all departments of government.

The job evaluation process has been developed by the management consultant firm of Hay Associates Canada Limited and has been successfully and extensively implemented throughout the private and public sectors in Canada. The evaluation of the 700 positions to be covered by the plan has been undertaken in co-operation with departmental management through a series of three job evaluation comm ittees, which recently completed their work.

As mentioned in last year's annual report, the development of the mana gement classification and compensation plan is a first phase of a broader proposal for management and executive development. The second phase, which will commence development in the coming year, will include the introduction of performancy evaluation, manp 0\4'ftf planning, special ized executive development and training, and imp roved methods of executive search.

The overall objective is to strengthen management identity and to develop an integrated approach to those areas, which can contribute to upgrading the level of management skills in government. lt is interesting to note, Mr. Chairman, that since 19 72 th(l Provincial Auditor has repeatedly comrne'ri)ed on the lack of an organ ized and comprehensive program to identify, develop and upgrade manager or resources in government. He has stated that in his opinion such a system is requ ired to provide for a continuous supply of qualified managers for the staffing of key positions in government.

In his most recent annual report, the Provinpi�! � Hf:jitor has commented, and I quote, "The overall proposal now recommende d by the Comm ission and approved by government when fully imp lemented should meet all the ob jectives expressed in my concerns. The conti nued development and implementation of the management classification and COfllR�r\�C)tion plan will comprise an imp ortant ongoing actiYity of the Commission during the coming year." · · The year 19 80 was <'l-!§P a significant one for collective bargaining, with �11 )he major Civil Service bargainin g groups.

Cpii� F,tjve agreements were successfu lly negotiatfld with each of the major bargaining units for a )wo-year contract term, from March 22nd, 1980 to Miuch 19th, 19 82. In addi tion to the largest bargaining unit represented by the Ma nitoba Government Emp loyees' Association, collective agreements were also concluded with the Manitoba Association of Crown Attorneys, the organization of professional engineers, the Manitoba fl4�fljpal Association and the Legal Aid Lawyers Association. Each of thes€l latter agreements were also negotiated for a two-year term.

Other areas of activity of in terest to this Comm ittee, Mr. Chair man, include the continued develop ment and refinement of the Equal Employment Opportunity Progrqrn, provided through the Civil Service Commission.

Over the past year the office concentrated its effqn� on the establishment of strong working relationships with various agencies within the commun ity, the development of client referral system, and the provisions of career counselling and training services. · In addi tion, a ma jor su rvey was un dertaken covering approxim ately 7, 000 civil servants to determine the existing distribution of members of the target populiitions and to identify the career needs of these and · other emplo yees within the Civil Service.

The survey had a signi ficant return rate of 53 percent and will form the basis of program planning over the next few years. In the Budget Estimates that are before you, Mr. Chairman, 1;11 be requesting an ' lncrease for the Equal Employment Opportunity Program, bot!J with regard to additional staff and funds, in order to expand and further develop such services as Outreach Recruitment, Career Counselling and Training. In recognition of 1981 being declared the International Year of the Disabled, specific attention will be given to the hai]P,iF,?,pped over the coming year.

To this end I have §eflt a communication to all Mini sters of Government asking for the support and co-operation of their departments in this endeavour. Staff of the Equal Emp loyment Opportunity Office will be ini tiating followup conta ct with each department to determine areas where the hand icapped might t>e 13ffectively employed.

In ordj'lr tq further its objectives of encouraging sound personnel management practices throughout gove rnment, the Civil Service Commission has developed a Personnel M,anagement Reviel.l{ Program designed to moni tor, ·evalt:jate and promote the development of personnel management within the Commission and departments of government. The program will provide for the monitoring and review of Personnel Management Programs on a joint consu ltative basis with the departments. lt will encompass a review of all aspects of personnel mana gement und er the provisions of The Civil Service Act.

Some ob jectives of the program 1452

Monday, 9 March, 1981 are:

(1) To evaluate the effectiveness of personnel mana gements within government and mak e recommendations for improvement; to motivate and assist departmental management toward developing and im proving their personnel ma na gement programs, and to keep the Civil Service Commission and the Mi nis ter responsibl e advis ed of any problems concerning personnel adminis tration, along with the appr opriate recomm endations for a corrective action. Finally, Mr.

Chairman, I can report that over the past year, the Sta ff Training and Dev elop ment Branch of the Civil Service Commission ha s continued to offer a wide variety of courses and workshops designed to im prove and develop the kn owledge and performance of employees within the Civil Service. As ind icated in the annual report, the branch attracted 2, 899 participants during 19 80 through courses and seminars designed to assist in developing technical, supervis ory or management skills in order to improve performance in many areas, directly related to daily job requirements. Within this year's Estimates, Mr.

Chairman, funds are being specifically provided to expand the delivery of training programs to include rural and northern areas, where the delivery costs are extensive. Over the past year the Commission has been working with the Federal Government, Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba Telephone System to establis h joint trainin g agreements, whereby employees of each organization will have access to training programs in areas such as Northern Manitoba.

This joint effort will no t only in crease the availability of training programs to employees in northern and rural areas, but it will greatly reduce the cost to any one of the employers. The foregoing, Mr. Chairman, outlines some of the activities undertaken by the Civil Service Commission over the past fiscal year, along with an indication of proposals for the coming year, which will be reviewed in greater detail during discussion of this Department's Estimates. In addition, Mr.

Chairman, I would refer the honourable members to the 63rd Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission, which provides a com prehensiv e outline of activities of the Civil Service Commission during the 1980 calendar year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKI NS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Min ister for that opening statement and I want to say that we hop e to ex amin e the report of the Commission in some detail. I want to say to the Min ister that I am glad to see that last year's Civil Service Commission is still in place.

I think we had considerable discussion last year about the tenure of the members of the Commission, and I see that the Mini ster has in the main left people in place which I think is a good feature because there has to be some continuity as far as the Civil Service Commission board members are concerned.

One of the concerns we had last year was the seemingly untenuous position that some of the members of the board did have because they were up and down and that was one of the problems, and I want to say to the Minis ter I appreciate the fact we are dealing with the members of the Commission that were in place last year. There are other aspects of the department that the Mini ster spoke of and that was the recruitment and selection which now encompas ses ten departments and the auditing of the recruitment and selection by the Civil Service Comm ission is a good feature.

We will have to wait and see in a period of time just whether the program that has been embarked upon by the Min ister bears fruit in the future. There are some aspects of the health program that I wish to raise with the Mini ster later on when we get to that part of the Civil Service Commi ssion Report. There are some aspects of the emplo yee health and counselling services that are a bit disturbing and I would just like to alert the Min ister that I wish to discuss that with him at a later date when we deal with the report itself.

We welcome the opportunity that members of the Civil Service Commission get to employment, and also to educational programs that he has been discussing. We'll discuss those in greater detail when we get to them. I would like to know at this time if the members of the Commission, and I believe I asked it last year, of the 19 Commission meetings if the Min ister could give us the attendance of the present members of the Commission; how many meetin.gs they attended.

Also if he could give us the length of service of the various members of the Comm ission; I see there are a couple there that have been there quite some time, in particular Mr. John Pankiw, who I remember when I was on the Winn ipeg School Board, he was a mem ber of the Adminis tration of the Winnip eg School Division and I imagine he still is. I just wonder how many years of service he has rendered to the Commission. Other than that, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to make a long opening statement. I think we should get down to the busi ness of examining the Civil Service Commission Report.

There may be some other statements that other membe rs of the Opposition which to make. At this time I would just ask the Mi n ister if he could reply to those two questions and then we will allow other members to if they wish to make a statement. MR. CHAI RMAN : The Honourable Minis ter. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the members of the Com mis sion are Mr. Hun ter; he's been there approxima tely two years. He attended 16 meetings last year. Mr. Allan has been on the Comm ission seven to eight years. He attended 19 meetings last year. MR. JENKI NS: Mrs. Allan. MR. MacMASTER: Mrs. I'm sorry, Hazel Allan. MR.

JENKI NS: Attended how many meetings? MR. MacMASTER: Nin eteen. Mr. Pankiw has been there approximately six years; attended 18 meetings last year. Shi rley Bradsha w ha s been there approxima tely two years; attended 12 meetings last year. Mr. Ha rt has been there approximately two years; attended 17 meetings last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think if the comm ittee would allow us to go, we're breaking our law and just 1453

Monday, 9 March, 1981 staying on 1. (a), we'll get down to 1.(

b) and then we can go through the whole round. The chairman rules this .. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, there's no Minis ter's salary. If we go to (

b) we're just talking about Other Expenditures. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, okay. MR. JENKINS: Item (

a) would be where, if we wish to speak about the Civil Service Commission as per se, that is where we are going to have to make the statements. MR. CHAIRMAN: You are right, you are correct. 1. (a) - thE! Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASI UK: Mr. Chairman, I just trying to see whethe r there's an organizational ch art. (I nterjection)- Oh, right here at the beginning, okay. Do you also have an ind ication of the number of people who are em ployed by the Civil Service Commission per se? Is that on any page, I haven 't had a chance to really go through the report? MR.

MacMASTER: There were 63 last year, there's 65 this year. If the member would like, I can give him a broad breakdown, just to give him an idea; he can fit it in. Under the Civil Service Comm issioner aspect there's four. Under Personnel Services Division there is 47, and under Staff Relations there is 12. Twelve and 47 is 59, and four is 63; I was right. And this year we are asking to increase it by two - one-and a-half equal opportunities, and half for staff training; so that's the two we want this year. Is that broken down enough? MR. PARAS IU K: I thank the Minister for that information.

I would like to ask the Mi nister about a phenomenom that I think exists amongst any bureaucracy where you set up a staff group like the Civil Service Commission with its staff to perform personnel functions, and departments then want to have that function perform within their department. We have it with respect to Information Services, in terms of the in formation func tion provided by government, where you have Information Services within one department, and yet over the last few years we'v e had a proliferation of In formation Service's officers attached to departments.

Is that phenomenom happening with respect to personnel and staff, and if so, how many departments have personnel sections that in a sense take on some of the functions of the Civil Service Commission? MR. MacMASTE R: The departments by and large on a good numb er have had personnel functions and personnel people sometimes titled, sometimes not titled for many many years. We have - I suppose it started with me, because I am such a great believer in a personnel function.

I think it's so terribly terribly important to the wellbeing of a company or to an organization or to a government, and when the Civil Service Commission people first started to talk, and I was talking with them about the benefits of a department having their own personnel function and truly having it running credibly, with emphasis on ability and seniority and promotion and the whole system as it relates to personnel, it was well received by the Civil Service people, the opportunity is there within the Act, there was no major changes made, it's already proven out in one of the very, very key areas where recruitment of personnel has reduced from 56-1/2 working days down to, I forget the figures, I think it's 40.

That is so terribly important, as I hope the Member for Transcona can appreciate, if you're running with 30 people, 40 people, and during the course of a year you have a one or two or three person change, be they promoted, transferred, or go to another department, or go out to private enterprise, whatever. lt's pretty important to get as much notice as possible that it's going to happen and that you get on with it and fill that position as quickly as possible. I'm pretty pleased that it's reduced. I have to tell you that I'm not satisfied that 40 working days is good enough.

The Civil Service people know that, we want that time cut, we think good mana gers are requiring 30 people, if that's what they require and they need them, generally speaking, full time. So we've already seen one very real good indication of it, that there are some advantages. The question that the Opposition was onto last year and we have watched it very closely, was, well, it may work, and God bles!l you if it does, but we're damn sure there's going to be a lot of grievances and appeals and that.

We have watched this very closely and there hasn't been any ind ication of increased appeals or grievances as it relates to the departments doing it. We have monitored it, we have audited them, and we are really satisfied, Mr. Chairman, that it's working reasonably well. MR. PARASIUK: Well, if the Min ister is indicating that the recruitment days for staff has decreased from 64-1/2 days on an average to 40 days, I can appreciate that that is a good sign.

I wonder if that takes into account senior people within the Civil Service as well as more junior people, in that we do have a situation where senior people have not been appointed for long, long periods of time, and I'm wondering whether in fact his figures take in to account the senior people. We have had some Deputy Min isters, for example, who haven't been reappointed or haven't been appointed for seven, eight months, and I think one of them has been an Acting Deputy Min ister for something in the order of two years. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, the delegation of authority and what we're talking about here does not apply to people above the Senior Officer I category. I thought, I guess it was my ignorance, but I thought the Member for Transcona would know that we're dealing with less than the particular type of position he's talking about; I know what it is, and we're not talking about the Civil Service Commission dealing with Deputy Mi nis ters, we're talking about Senior Officer I, below that. That's where the dramatic decrease in the filling of the positions and the time period has taken place. MR.

PARASIUK: I know that they are excluded and that you deal with people below Senior Officer I, but when you throw out general statistics, I thought maybe that that was on the basis of the overall 1454

Monday, 9 March, 1981 number of civil servants, and that's the statistic that you were using. Perhaps it just applies to those people who are comple tely under the aegis of the Civil Service Commission. That's the clarification I wanted. MR. MacMASTER: The average, I understa nd, includes everybody. MR. PARASIUK: Because as I said from the point of view of Civil Service morale, that is the morale of civil servants generally, it breaks down if senior people are not appointed, and there are many departments where there are a numb er of open senior positions that have been open for some time.

The Department of Health, the Department of Community Services, I'm not sure, the Information Services tells us that there are two departments there, but yet there are, in some respects, a close integration; there is a close integration between those two departments, and a num ber of Civil Service positions there of a senior nature have not been filled.

They have been acting for a number of years, and the same thing holds true with the Department of Economic Development, where there seems to have been a fair amount of confusion and lack of control, and from the type of comments that I have been receiving from people, a decrease in morale at that level.

So I can appreciate the Minister's pride in seeing the recruitment days dropping for people, but at the same time there seems to be a couple of areas at the senior level, which although not under the direct control of the Civil Service Commission, certainly has repercussions on the morale of the Civil Service, which I think would be of concern to the Commission and the Minister responsible for the Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a) - pass - the Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, I want to deal with the Civil Service Commission as listed on Page 8, dealing with the appeals received and the appeals heard. There is one item here that I just don't quite get the category that is set out here. There's the types of appeals initiated , gr anted, denied, and then we come to cine, not accepted. I wonder if the Minister could explain just what would be the criteria for the Civil Service Commission not accepting an appeal. Is there a certain mechanism whereby the Civil Service employee goes into this appeal mechanism and is it a wrong type of an application that they make?

I wonder if the Minister could explain that. MR. MacMASTER: Strictly time. It's like a grievance procedure where you have X amount of time to put in a first stage, second stage and third stage and then you wheel and deal with the company in an effort to set up an arbitration case, the same type of time factors apply here, and that one case that was not accepted was because of time limits. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, there were two. There was one dealing with reclassification and another dealing with suspension that were not accepted.

The initial appeal was made and then, from what I understand from what the Minister says, there is a certain time

schedule that they have to go through and the applicant for the appeal did not proceed with it? What is the difference between not accepted and withdrawn? I can understand if a person wants to withd raw, he may have got further information and decided that his appeal wasn't of such a nature that could be considered by the Commission, but I would respectfully suggest that a person facing suspension should be aware of the criteria and the

schedule that he must follow, and if the Minister could just give us a brief outline of just what that

schedule is. MR. MacMASTER: I misled the Member for Logan when I was dealing with one I was correct and I was incorrect. I was dealing with one, as he pointed out there were two. One was a time limit, where the time limits were expired. On the suspension one, it was misdir ected. It had been sent to the Civil Service Commission and it should have gone to arbitration. That's the two. On the withdrawn, that happens in all segments of society and the member can just think for a minute and think of all kinds of things that were withdrawn for a whole host of reasons. MR.

JEN KINS: I thank the Minister for that information. That now makes a bit more sense than what you said before. The Commission itself in the Dep artments that now have the function of recruitment and selection, do they do a complete audit on the recruitment and selection or do they just do samples of the recruitment and selection that had been made with the delegated authority to the department? MR. MacMASTER: There's a complete audit done and I think last year we spelled this out, that there be a complete audit done and there is being done for the first full six months; from there on, it's at random. MR.

JENKINS: Of the ten departments now, how many are new ones from last year? I remember Labour and Manpower was one last year. I just wondered what new one that we have added since last year? MR. MacMASTER: If the member would be kind enough to look at page 9, Del egat ion and Recruitment of Selection. April, March, April, March, April, March, March, March, April, May, May. It tells you. MR. JENKINS: They're relatively then at the same time? Then they would have all passed their six months total analysis of the Recr uitment and Select ion.

Could the Minister give us a breakdown of how many since the six months peri od, probationary period, I guess that's what you would call it for the Recruitment and Selection in the department, how many were done on a random basis, department by department, in the following six months? Maybe in some cases that's not a fair question, because I see some of them are March. Well, the ones in March first, should now be in that first category because we're now into March the 9th today. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, while the Minister is getting that if he could get us the total that the 14 55

Monday, 9 March, 1981 department have looked at and then give us a breakout of what they have looked at after the six months probationary period has come into effect department by department. If he can't get it right now, perhaps he could get it for a later date. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we're trying to get a breakdown, but there was 215 audits took place in departments that had designation. We also did 61 audits on departments who do not have delegations, so it's a general policy to audit certainly at random all departments, so that the member knows that other departments are being looked at also.

Now, we'll try and break that down. it's maybe a little difficult, but we'll see if we can get the breakdown, we just have the large numb ers. MR. JENK INS: Of the 21 5, that's the breakdown that if the Mini ster could get it, how many were the compulsory analysis and how many were of the random, and if I understand the Mini ster correctly then the 61 fig ure that he gave us was of departments that have not been delegated the authority of Recruitment and Selection and they, the Recruitment and Selection Comm ittee, still function in that matter?

Dealing with the personnel policy admin istration, this again I guess is the function of the Commission, dealing with educational leave. I see that approval has been granted for nine. Is that an increase or a decrease from last year and how many of the people we had on educational leave have returned to the service? MR. MacMASTER: There were three approved in 1979, and there were nine app roved in 1980. MR.

JENKIN S: Of the ones that we have had, of the three that were appr oved in 1979, ha ve they completed their educational leave or are they still on educational leave, and of ones that we had prior to 1979, have any of those people who have been on educational leave returned to the service of the Province? If those figures are available, they would be appreciated. MR. MacMAST ER: I'll try and get those figures. MR. JENKINS : In the special merit increment, we have six approved and three declined. What is meant by special merit inc rement? Are these heard on appeal or are they recommendations of department heads?

MR. Mac MASTER: Th ere are on occasions recommenda tions from your department head through to your department, the entire department, that special merit for outstanding work in a particular field be given consideration and there isn't that many of them, but there are regulations that apply; they are simply the Commis sion may on the recommendation of the Mini ster of the department concerned approve the granting of the special merit increment equivalent to one step in the applicable pay range to an emp loyee on the emplo yee 's ann iversary date or at any monthly ann iversary date deemed appropria te.

A special merit in crement equivalent to one step and the applicable pay range may be granted only once to any emp loyee in any twelve-month period and may only be granted within the pay range for the class of the position to which the employee is assigned. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here now with the Min ister, but we had qu ite a discussion on the previous department, where we were talking about none mandatory retirement at the age of 65, and I see that there are four cases where the Commission has granted employment over age 65.

I wonder if the Mini ster could explain what those four positions are and what were the extenuating circumstances since The Civil Service Act states quite specifically that the age of retirement will be 65. Was it not possi ble for the government to be able to recruit people to take these places and for what length of time was the extension of employment granted for over the age of 65? MR. Ma cMASTER: Again, there are reg ulations within the Civil Service Act that deal with that. (

a) they must retire and then they're taken back on a term, normally for one year. We have to assure ourselves that the extension does not prevent the promotion of a member of the Civil Service who is qualified to fill the position, no qualified person can be found outside the Civil Service to fill the position held by the retiring member, the retiring emp loyee is ph ysically and mentally fit to continue the employment, and the extension is required for the purpose of completing a project or assignment. Those are the four categories which it can fall into. MR.

JENKI NS: Then, in other words, the Mini ster is saying that these four people, the Commission was quite satisfied that it was not possible at that time to recruit someone and that they are there just for a one-year term period. Do these people, at age 65, if they continue in employment as a term emp loyee, I'm not sure, I guess term emp loyees are not eligible for pension or pension benefits, or even payment into pensions, am I correct in that assumption? MR. MacMAS TER: They cease contributing, yes. MR.

JENKINS: While they are emp loyed over the age of 65, and I realize at that age they are entitled to their pension that is due to them, do they receive their pension as well as the employment at the same time, or is there a stipulation that they would not draw it until they had officially retired? MR. MacMASTER: For less than six months they do, if it's over six months, it's deferred until their one year term is completed. MR. JENKI NS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIA CK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

These four emp loyees were kept on at the request of the employing agency. I assume that's correct, yes, the Mini ster nods his head. How many applications were made by emp loyees who wished to stay on and were not accepted for a lengthier period? MR. MacMASTER: The Civil Service Commission only deals with those that are brought forward by the 1456

Monday, 9 March, 1981 employing authority. And it was four, and they dealt with it. MR. CHERNIA CK: If an emp loyee wish ed to continue beyond 65, what procedure would he use? MR. MacMAST ER : He has access to his department head, he can speak of all the virtues of himself and the abilities he has and the way he feels about it, and see if he can convince the employing authority that they should give consideration to it. MR. CHERNIA CK: Well then it's clear, Mr. Chairman, that the employee has no right to go to the Civil Service Commission itself. That becomes clear from what the Min ister said.

If he cannot sell himself to his employer, employing agency, then he's finis hed, I gather. Does he have any rights for review? MR. MacMASTER : No, I wouldn't believe so. If it's felt by the employing authority that for just reason that he should be let go, then he's let go. MR. CHERNIA CK: The Ci vil Service being responsible for recruitment, does it list the experience and the qualifications of a retired person for temporary hiring by the Manitoba Government? MR. MacMASTER: Once a member retires, he ceases to be the responsibility of the jurisdiction, which is, of course, the Manitoba Government. MR.

CHERNIA CK: Mr. Chairman, that doesn't quite answer my question. I assume that the Civil Service Commis sion keeps records of people who are available for employment by the province, and I'm now speaking of temporary employment, where it may be necessary for a department to ha ve temporary personnel available to them, or for such period of time until they can fill a job with a permanent civil servant, does the Civil Service keep a record of people who are available to go to work? MR. MacMAST ER: Yes, we still keep the file, Mr. Chairman. MR .

CHERNIA CK: And if an employing authority in the government is in need of temporary skills or temporary help and advises the Civil Service of that, does the Civil Service look through its list of personnel to see whether they could be us ed, regardless of age? MR. MacMAST ER: Yes, that could be done. MR. CHERNIA CK: There's a slight difference in wording. I said, does it, and the Min ister said, that could be done. I'd rather get an answer to my direct question; is that the practice? MR. MacMAST ER: I think I answered the question.

I'm not going to play games with words with the member, I answered the question, the files are kept, if you were the Deputy Min ister of Highw ays and you wanted an experienced engineer and you thought there was one that had retired and wanted to know what his qualifications are, you could obtain them. MR. CHERNIA CK: Mr. Chairman, if the Min ister thinks I have nothing else to do than come here and play with words with him or anybody else, he's badly mistaken. I want to get it clear.

He is saying, if a Deputy Minister, of let us say, Hig hways, wants an experienced person and asks for a file on a person, then he could ask for him. That's not my question.

I want to know whether, if a Deputy Min ister needs a person who's experienced in a certain line of work, and that person is not readily available for full-time employment or if he doesn't need him for full time employment, and he goes to the Civil Service and says, I need somebody with certain qualifications, does the Civil Service maintain a list which it can submi t to the Deputy Min ister saying, these are people available, and will that list include people who are over the age of 65? MR.

MacMASTER : That very scenario could take place if a person was retiring and said, I want my file kept active, I'd like you to make people aware of my talents if they so inqu ire, then certainly the Civil Service could do that for a particular department. MR. CHERNIA CK: Well, Mr. Chairman, now that we've established that the Civil Service could do it, my question originally was, does it do it? And that's not playing with words, there's a big difference between what it can do and what it does do. Does it do it? MR. MacMASTER: Where information is sought from the Civil Service Commission, they will provide it.

The information is available. MR. CHERNIA CK: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to arrive at an understanding of the practise of the Civil Service Commission. I want to know whether they ha ve lists ava ilable, as I believe they do, of prospective employees with varying qualifications. My impression is that they have a list of people who are available to do work, and that they maintain that list. And my question was is, on that list do they include people who are over age 65, not whether they can or not. it's obvious that they can. My question is, do they? MR. MacMAST ER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I an swered the question, and I answered it very precisely. If a person says that they want their name put on such a list, and they want themselves and they want their talents made available to others who choose to seek them for possible part-time, full-time emp loyment, then that information is available. MR. CHERNIA CK: Mr.

Chairman, it appears therefore, that any person who wishes to be listed, be that person age 17 or 70, can in form the Commission of the availability of these services and the Commis sion then ma in tains a list, which is available for review by any prospective emp loyer within government. That's what I understood the Min ister to say. If I'm wrong, I wish he would correct me, because it then appears to me that people who want employ some one with certain skills can go to the Civil Service Commission and find out who has in formed them that he or she is available, which is fair enough.

There's no other way you can get them on the list, except of course, that the Commission is aware of all the retired people; the Comm ission kno ws what their skills were when they retired. And 1457

Monday, 9 March, 1981 I'm assuming from the way the Mini ster answered my question, that the Civil Service Comm ission doesn't keep a list, nor bother to suggest to the retired person that he or she list themselves with the Civil Service Commission, but will only do so when asked by the emp loyee to do that. I assume that is the correct procedure. Mr. Chairman, I assume that when a person retires from the Civil Service they get some kind of documentation informing them of their rights and wher e they stand in relation to pension and retirement.

I want to suggest to the Min ister that wh atever information they are given in that routine way, should include an invitation to be listed as available, if they want to be listed as available, for any other jobs within the Civil Service, in the event that such jobs arrive. I wonder if the Min ister would consider that as a positive way of dealing with people who have served the province and may wish to continue to offer their services. MR. MacMASTER: Well we could consider making that precise offer to them, I suppose, but it doesn't happen like today and tomorrow you retire.

We start wo rking with people who are coming up to the retirement stage, approxima tely six months. Now it migh t be seven or it might be eight, but approximately six months we start working with them and talking to them about pre-retirement and talking to them about their pensions and whatever else is necessary. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I didn't know that. lt sounds like it's a very good policy. I assume that there are certain pension options that take place, that are discussed before retirement.

I would guess that wou ld be some thing that's necessary and possibly some fringe benefits that may be continued on after retirement. I believe the term life insurance is one of the possi bilities to be maintained, and I assume that's wha t is being discussed. I'm wondering if there's a brochure of some kind that is being offered, that could be made available to us so that we can see what is being given. MR.

MacMASTER: Yes, I can get the brochure that we do in fact deal with and in addition to that I could get a general rundown of the people within government who talk to these people, because you know, the member can appreciate there's a variety of people that talk to them. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Min ister.

I think that could be a really worthwhile thing to have and something that for good public relations, could be made better known to the public and also since I believe that government generally is a good employer, that it often is a good example to other emp loyers as to how to deal with its servants, so I thank the Min ister. I'm looking forward to seeing it. I would say that I'm disappoi nted that the gove rnment has not moved on the question of making a joint right to consider re-employment. For example, Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster has made it clear that no employee is granted the right to ask for continued employment, unless he can persuade his immediate employer to do that. lt occurs to me that a person coming off the payro ll of some department at age 65, might well be able to fill a simi lar job in another department, but that department might not know that he is available for that work. And that it would be commendable for any employer to recognize the skills and ability of a retiring employee and if that employee wishes to continue to work, to make it possible for him to do.

I ack nowledge the fact that the Minis ter has indicated that he and his government refuse at this stage to grant the right of continued employment to employees, so I'm not discussing that now.

But what I am saying is that it would be good employer emp loyee relations when you 're dealing with the employer - I think Manitoba is the largest employer in this province - to ensure that people who want to continue work, have that opportunity available to them, if the employer wants to keep him on and the employer being the Province of Manitoba, that need not be limited only to the department which knew him, but that it could be circularized amongst other departments. I wonder if the Min ister would consider that as a suggestion. MR. MacMASTER: We can certainly consider that.

The whole age 65 thing as I mentioned to the member before is being considered and where we're going with that, we're not certain now, but that's a valid point. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Min ister's reaction. I know that he is not ready to move and I'm not telling him that he should move, nor do I have the answers which he is seeking.

But since we are talking in the field now of co-operative decisions or two-way decisions, both the employer and the employee, and since it is clear and I know this from past experience, the emp loyer has every opportunity to suggest an extended employment, that the employee should be given the same kind of opportunity to suggest we could discuss at a later date, whether he should have the right to demand or to greive, but at this stage, all I was suggesting was a voluntary request to be considered seriously. I gather the Mini ster will consider that favourably and I appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to deal with the personnel policy and review program reviews that the Comm ission deals with and I see that there has been a determina tion of various policies, but I see that there is now a review directed towards educational leave policy. Who directs this review? Is this a Comm ittee of Cabinet, or is it the Mini ster, or just where does the direction for the Civil Service Commission to review the educational leave policy, or was it on their own instigation, or just how did it come about? MR .

MacMA STER: The Civil Service Comm ission itself, the Board, wanted the review of the education leave procedures, methodolgy, the way in which it's dealt with, by departments. We may find there is some inconsistency. We may find that it's easier under some departments, we may find it's more difficult under others. I concurred in total; I think we should have a broad overall policy, a certain criteria established. it's generally been that way, but I'm not sure if it's as good as we'd like to see it. 1458

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. JENK INS: I would have to agree with the Mini ster that if we are going to have policy it has to be a general policy. If I were a Civil Service emp loyee and wishing to apply for appl ication of an educational nature, what would be the procedure? Do I apply to my immediate - I mean as it is now - do I apply to immediate supervisor, or do I apply to the Civil Service Commission, or just how would I go ab out getting that before the Commission, because the Commission in the final analysis makes the decision? That is my understanding because they app roved nine last year. MR.

MacMAST ER : Mr. Chairman, basically the procedure is you apply within your department, hopefully you get endorsed by your department, and then it goes to the Civil Service Commission. If it does not get the endorsement of the department, you can still appeal to the Civil Service Commission. MR. JEN KINS: Then in other words, like the Minis ter said, if my immediate supervisor did not agree, then I could go over his head directly to the Civil Service Commission and make the application.

In that respect then it makes a lot of sense what the Mini ster has been saying, and what the Commission itself is . . . because there must have been cases of people making direct applications over the heads of their immediate supervisors in order to get that. The conflict of in terest guidelines that are under review at the present time, was this a direction from the Department or was it again initiated by the Civil Service Commission? MR.

MacMAST ER: Departments have requested the Commission to review and interpret the conflict of in terest situation and the Commis sion is now looking at it and reviewing it. it's just for clarification. it's not for prospective changes in legislation in any way. MR. JEN KINS: The Min ister says there is no anticipation that legislation will be in troduced or changes will be made, it will be just for clarification of the Civil Service Commission themselves.

Dealing with the problem of over age emp loyees, or employment over the age of 65, in order that the Min ister is considering some of the suggestions made by the Mem ber for St. Johns, wou ld the Min ister be prepared to suggest to the Civil Service Commission that they review the policies that we are operating under at the present time with some of the suggestions that ha ve been put forth by the members of the Comm ittee? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, that's the exercise that we're going through here, and I sort of respect the exercise.

Members of the Opposition, members of the Government are always entitled to put forth suggestions, the ones put forward by the Member for St. Johns, I said to him, I say to the Member for Logan, they will be considered. MR. JENKINS: The Minister says it will be considered.

Will it be considered by the Min ister or will it be considered by the Civil Service Commission, that is the gist of the question that I was putting to the Min ister, because I think the Minis ter in this area needs to get as much information and expertise as is possible, and perhaps these people do have some expertise in this field, I don't know.

I'm not saying that this should be the final analysis, but I would sug gest seriously to the Minister, that if the Commission is not overburdened then perhaps this is one area that they could come up with some ideas for the Mini ster and for perhaps future government policy, because eventually this question of mandatory retirement, whether we like it or not, is going to repeat itself; it's going to come back. I would certainly say to the Minis ter, I don't have the answer to it, and I don't think anyone around this table has the answers to it. it's a question that I think requires as much study as is possible.

I just throw out a suggestion to the Minister that if the Commission is not overburdened, perhaps we'd get one point of view for the Minister's consideration. MR. MacMASTER : We are seeking points of view from an awful lot of people and the suggestion from the member is quite acceptable. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Min ister for that reply. I certainly hope that he will consider it seriously. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to ask one question in respect to the over 65, there were four recommendations appr oved.

Can the Min ister through his staff inform us of how many people are working at the present time who are over 65, besides those four that were approved? MR. MacMAS TER: I'll have to get that numb er for the Member for Kildonan, but there isn't a great number, but I will have that by this evening if that's MR. FOX: I didn't follow it all, and I was absent and I apologize for that, but I wasn't aware that of those that had received extensions, what length was the maxi mum. Was one year's length the maximum? There may be some just recently received their recommenda tion, or are these four a 12 -month period? MR.

MacMASTER : During the 12 months. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There would be no more than four, except those that were overlapping from last year. The other question I had, and I know you won't have time to get the answer for it this afternoon, was the rate of turnover - if there was any kind of statistics on how many people we were losing regularly from the Civil Service and how many were being replaced, because the graph that we have in respect to the numb er of people employed has been altered because there have been transfers from one department to another.

I would also like to get an idea of what kind of a turnover rate we have at the present time in the Civil Service, for which new competitions have to be created. MR. MacMASTER : Eight to ten is considered a general figure for the last good numb er of years. Sometimes it's low eight, sometimes it's high eight, sometimes low nine, but generally speaking it's 8 to 9 percent, sometimes a little bit higher. 1459

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, Comm ittee rise for Private Members' Hour. Comm ittee Rise. SUPPLY -CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENV IRON MENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radiss on): This comm ittee will come to order. I would di rect the honourable members' attention to Page 32 of the Main Estima tes, Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment. Resolution No. 38, Clause 3. Item (

c) Securities Commission: ( 1) Salaries - pass; (2) - pass; (c) -p ass. (

d) Public Utilities Board:

(1) Salaries - pass - (2) - pass; (d) - pass. Clause 3. pass. The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HAN USCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak to (d)

(2) Public Utilities. Could the Mini ster explain the incr ease under Other Expen ditur es, $342,0 00 to $427 ,000 which appears to be approxi mately a 25 percent in crease? Could he ind icate wha t it is that he antici pates occurring within the Public Utiliti es Board that will necessitate that $80,000 incr eased expenditure? MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, the Member for Burrows suggested that I make my comment now while the Minis ter is looking for the answer to the Member for Burrows' question. On that basis, I am prepared unless the Minis ter is ready? He is ready.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, in response to the Member for Burrows, I can ind icate that the in crease of some $80,000 is due to a variety of factors.

Firstly, there is a 20 percent in crease in the fees paid to professional advisers to the Board, that inclu des lawyers, accountants, engineering consultants and so on, who review the applications before the Board, and there has been general price incr eases of another sorry, that amounts to some $58,000 in total antici pated incr ease, there is a second in crease in general price in creases which is some $9,300, and an anticipation of incr eased workload due to the passage of Bill 10 7 which now brings various items of communi cations under the purview of the Board which had not previously been under the Board's jurisdiction, and that will also be partially addressed by vir tue of an in tention on the part of the government to in crease the size of the Public Util ities Board to add some expertise in the commun ications field to deal with the various applications that might come to it in terms of the telephone system and the cable network and so on, to expand the Board from four plus a Chairma n to six plus a Vice-Chairman and a Chairman.

So all of those various moves are included in the incr ease of $85,400.00. MR. HAN USCHAK: Yes, did the Mini ster say there is a 20 percent incr ease in the fees paid to outside profes sionals and consultants? MR. FIL MON: Yes, that is in part to reflect, Mr.

Chairman, the fact that there had only been one inc rease in the period 19 74 to the present, 19 81, in the fees that were being paid to professionals and so this 20 percent still leaves them in the view of many who are acting as consultants to the Board, well behind the normal fees that they are being paid in their own professional work, but they have obviously been able to provide this service in the past, a service that we need in the Board, and we believe that this is only bringing them up closer to being in line with the normal fees that they would command in their practice. MR.

HAN USCHAK: Could the Mini ster provide is with some comparative figur es that would indicate the rates at which the Public Utiliti es Board paid, I would presume, they would retain engine ers, lawyers, and the like, how the Public Utiliti es Board 's fee sched ule would com pare with tha t of other government departments hiring similar professional assistance? MR. FI LMON: Mr. Chairman, even with this in crease it will be still less than the levels at which they would be paid when hir ed by other government departments to do work for the government. MR.

HAN USCHAK: That's something that I find rather difficult to understand, Mr. Chairman, why the di screpancy in the rates of pay from one department to another, from one Board to another department. lt would seem to me that there would be some co ordination interdepartmentally which would provide for a standard level of fees, you know, without any variation from one department to the next. I can't understand why the Public Util ities Board seems to have shut its eyes to what the going rate of pay is and pays at a di fferent rate. MR. FILMON: As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, it's reflective of the situation that I pointed out, that there had only been one incr ease in the previous seven years, and it is our intention, having regard to this situation, to bring them up in line, but it was felt in reviewing it, that to do it all in one jump would look very very unusual, and very large, and so in fact it is my intention to pursue this again and by next year to bring them up in line which will probably require another in crease next year. MR. HAN USCHAK: You said there was one incr ease - now I want to make sur e that I understand the Mini ster correctly.

He said there was one in crease from 19 74 to 19 81. Is he saying that some time between the years 1974 and 1981 there was one in crease in the fee schedule, and now this is another one. So when, between 1974 and 19 81, was the last incr ease? MR. FILMON: In 19 79. MR. HAN USCHAK: Could the Mini ster ind icate whether that fee in crease of 20 percent, 1979, now really we don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether it was in December of 19 79 or in January of 19 79, because if it were in the latter part of 1979 then it's only a little more than a year which has transpired since the last incr ease.

Is that rate of incr ease comparable with the rates of in crease paid to Civil Service? 1460

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the Order-in-Council that was passed, was passed on January 24th, 1979. I'm advised that the amount of in crease that was put through at that time was less than the incr eases that have been put through for the previous five years for the Civil Service and that's the case. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, when I li sten to the di fficulties the Mini ster has in responding to questions that are related to a Board which is really beyond his perview except of course as it is assigned to him but which has a semi-judicial function, I sometimes wonder whether it wouldn't be better to have those Boards and Comm issions appear before commi ttee dir ectly, so that they could be asked questions which are unr elated to government policies.

However, this is the way it's been all along and I ther efore have to ask the Min ister a question relating to the practice of the Board which I think generally has the respect of the people of Manitoba which seems to function in a way which works in detail and works in the int erests of the people. I was caught somewhat unawares, Mr. Chairman, thinking that we were still on Item (

c) Securities and I was on my way out to pick up my file when I heard your calling of this particular Item (d). So, without my file and speaking from memory, I want to deal with a complaint which I received some time ago from a very indignant user of Gas Services. Because of the change in the billing procedure whereby the meter is being read every two months ins tead of every month and as a result every second m

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-33a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 33a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	954fe3c6f235fe9846db1b6c4d4c889fbfd409a7

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