Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, June 23, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M, RUSSELL Number 39 . ...., . ..

June 23, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P,M. Mr, Speaker in the Chair, Tape no. 973 Page 1 - MRW MR. T, M. DOYLE: Mr, Speaker, I would like to make a statement on behalf of the hon. the Premier. MR. E.M. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, I rise not to be difficult but I never before heard of a private member, unless something has happened since yesterday, the honourable gentleman has been sworn into the ministry -it would be quite in order for another minister to make a statement on behalf of the Premier, I am not trying to be difficult. I have listened to the statements. I think it is a good point of order, Sir, MR.

ROWE (W.N.): I can get up and make a statement, can I? MR. DOYLE: Mr, Speaker, I would ask the hon. the House Leader to read the statement,please, HON. W.W. MARSHALL (Minister without Portfolio): I want to make a collective statement, Mr. Speaker. It has long been acknowledged that rural Newfoundland offers many unique attractions which are sought after by tourists from all over the world, People who visit our outports return to their homes loud in their praise of'the hospitality, scenery and uniqueness which they have found.

It if becoming more and more obvious that the vast majority of visitors to this province wish to live in this typical Newfoundland atmosphere during their vacation, Unfortunately, housing facilities in these areas have so far been generally inadequate, In attempting to remedy this situation, I am pleased to announce that my government are in the process of arranging a survey which will be conducted this summer throughout the rural areas, with a view to establishing a series of what might be called "Newfoundland Hospitality Homes," in time for next year's tourist season, These homes are to be operated by the people who·own them and they will have from two to four bedrooms and 3088 .... , 1•

June 23, 1972 Mr. Marshall Tape no, 973 Page 2 must offer a high standard of cleanliness as well as comfortable sitting, dining and sleeping accommodations. The survey will locate suitable homes throughout the province. While most Newfoundland outport homes are in attractive locations., there are, however, areas which will be difficult to promote as it must be remembered that not all our visitors will be content with just relaxing in the front yard. Suitable homes must be reasonably close to some form of fishing or perhaps be near some point of historic interest.

Of course, a clean beach in the area would alRo be a most favourable asset. When established in time for the 1973 tourist season, this project should become a source of revenue in many areas of rural Newfoundland. Similar projects in Ontario and in Ireland have proven that a hospitality home can make as much as $2,000 a year. Therefore, in addition to providing tourists with a typically Newfoundland atmosphere, we will at long last be expanding our tourists outside the urban areas.

It is planned that the project will fit into the terms of reference of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation so that home owners may qualify for assistance in improvements and/or renovations. The survey this s1.nnmer will be carried out by teams of university students who will be assigned to various parts of the province, They are expected to complete the work by the end of August. It is then planned to assemble the information with a view to publishing a directory of available Newfoundland hospitality homes by next spring.

This project will come under the direct supervision of the hon. member for Ferryland, parliamentary Assistant of the Premier,who will have the close co-operation of the Tourist Develppment Office in this unique undertaking. The government believe that this project will meet with the approval of all Newfoundlanders and especially those in the rural areas of the province, as it will further serve to develop these areas which are so important to the economy of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I might add to this that this is one of the measures which this government intend to take 3089

June 23, 1972 Tape no. 973 Page 3 with respect to the development of the rural Newfoundland areas, a promise which this government, this administration has maintained for the years when it was out of power that it would do when it got into power. It is a sad, sad fact that it is as a result of the direction - MR. ROWE (W,N.): Point of order, Mr, Speaker, At this point in the day's proceedings the honourable minister is permitted to make a statement on government policy, he is not permitted to get involved in debate or any other thing, except the statement of government policy. MR. MARSHALL: Of course, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member for White Bay South has made a valid observation and point of order, but I would just conclude by saying the statement speaks for itself and is a part of the implementation of the policy which this government intend to adopt towards the neglected part of our province, rural Newfoundland, MR. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, I can only concur with what the honourable gentleman says about the statement, speaking for itself. I can understand why the Premier is absent. He did not have the gall to read it to the House.

We will wait for a year and we will see what comes of this, I wonder if the minister could indicate or perhaps the Premier's substitute, the parliamentary assistant (there are two ) what the estimated cost of the survey will be this year? This may not be the place to ask it, maybe in the Tourist Development Vote in the Department of Economic Development. Could the minister give the House and the waiting public of the province any indication of what it will cost? Who will select the teams so forth and so on? MR.

MARSHALL: Mr, Speaker, again with respect to this matter, I think that the hon, Leader of the Opposition will concur ~hat perhaps this is a question which could be more 3090 rt

June 23, 1972. Tape 974. Page 1. properly be left for the department to which it relates, when the estimates come up. HON.A.T.ROHE(min. of Health): Mr. Speaker, in view of the publicity given the recent escape from the Hospital for Mental & Nervous Diseases by a twenty year old inmate. It is necessary to fully explain the situation at the Hospital and to give full details surrounding the escape. Mr.

Speaker, during the good weather, spring, summer and early fall the long term patients at tlu~ Hospital for Mental & Nervous Diseases who have shown no recent evidence of dangerous behaviour and to have behaved well at the ward level are given a privilege to go for walks on hospital grounds escorted by trained psychiatric nursing assistants. The privileges are granted by a hospital board consisting of a medical director, a psychiatrist, the nurse and nursing assistant A privilege is rescinded immediately should a patient show any suggestion of possible abnormal behaviour.

No patient is allowed unsupervised walks that has been extremely dangerous. The recent escape,a staff member followed the patient and was careful not to confront him in such a way as to precipitate unreason.able or aggt·Pssive behaviour. Eventually other hospital staff arrived. The pafient was apprehended by the hospital staff without any injury to the patient or to the staff. He was then handed over to the Newfoundland Constabulary to be returned to the hospital. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the choice that faces the staff at the Hospital for Mental & Nervous Diseases is a risk of an occasional patient running away from supervised walks 1 as happened recently 1 or to deny all patients their fresh air and exercise. The hospital considers the second alternative 3091

June 23, 1972. Tape 974. Page 2. to be inhumane. The youth who escaped was twenty years of age and has been in the hospital since 1968. Although he has shown considerable aggression towards staff in the past in recent times he had been behaving somewhat better and permission was given for him to go on this supervised walk. On June 20, he was walking with seven other patients and two staff, when around 3:30 P.M.he left the group, running from the hospital grounds with a staff member giving chase. The second staff member returned the other patients to the hospital and informed the head nurse of the escape.

The nurse informed the supenrisor,Then he and the other staff member also gave chase after the escaped inmate. The youth was followed across Topsail Road through brush and fields. The staff did not go close to him because he had found a pitchfork and was carrying it with him. When the staff approached the head of Forbes Street and Fairview Acres,they were informed by a man that the patient had been in some houses and had threatened some people with the pitchfork.

I am informed that within five minutes after the staff's arrival on the scene the area was surrounded by police and at least eight members of the hospital staff. Within an hour the patient came out of the woods 1 went into a store and immediately the staff and policemen were informed.A member of the staff surprised the youth from behind and the police returned the man to the hospital. I think it should be pointed out that it was after 4:00 P.M. when the youth was caught and thllt there were four offduty staff members who remained behind to join in the search.

I feel the quick action by the staff and the full cooperation by the Constabulary and the R.C.M.P. prevented what could have been a serious incident. Dr. Walsh,the Medical Director of the hospital,informs me that the staff member who followed the yvuth carried out the hospital policy and that he followed him and kept sending word so that the hospital staff were aware of and able to catch up with the youth, so apprehend him. 3092

June 23, 1972. Tape 974 . Pa ge 3. I might say that after the escape 1 Dr. Walsh himself went to the area while the search was in progress. The Department of Health is very much aware of the 1•roblems at the Hospital for Mental & Nervous Diseases.This latest incident again points out the urgent need for further priorities lo the hospital. But thankfully incidents such as this are relatively few and far between 1 but I thousht the !louse should have full details in view of the publicity. MR.ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I think anybody who has ever been involved with the Department of Health will understand the situation which the minister describes and indeed subscribe to what the minister has said, He has put it in perspective when he said one has a choice between either restricting the patients to the hospital grounds o~on the basis of medical advice,allowing them some privileges This is not the first such instance we have had, There have even been more tragic ones, there was a case two or three years ago when a gentleman who had been seen by two separate psychiatrists,all of whom recommended open ward privileges, that gentleman left the hosp.ital,went a short distance to his home and Twill not say murdered his wife, because that is a conclusion in law but 3093

June 23, 1972, Tape 975, Page 1 -- apb was charged with murderin11 his wife, was found incompetent to stand trial is still at the hospital. The only thing I would say is that I re11ret that the minister has inadvertently used the word escape. I was always told that the word was elopement, because the hospital, as he himself said the other ni11h~ is not a prison, and to use the word escape implies that it somehow is a prison. It is not.These are people who are ill and who need treatment and receive the treatment.

The minister may have set some public fears at rest, I hope so, but the problem will be with us for a long time yet to come. ORDERS OF THE DAY: ~•r. Speaker, before Orders of the Day are called ,might I direct a question to the honourable ~inister of Fisheries? Has the vessel which was enroute from Burgeo to Torbay,to take the catch from the fishermen there,arrived? If not, has the minister any idea of the arrival or what is the position to date? HON. R.L .CHEESEMAN (MINIS'rER OF FISHERIES): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in connection with the ouestion by the honourable member from Fogo, the trawler arrived off Torbay this morning, came to anchor I guess and started to take fish from the crews in that area this morning. I have no late report but,as of about eleven o'clock this mornin!' or eleven thirty, the operation was progressini> satisfactorily and the only thing now is what the quantity of fish is going to be in the next day or so.

There does not seem to be any problem as far as the operation itself is concerned, and hopefully it can take a fair ouantity of fish and get out as ouickly as possible and get back to the plant. MR. WINSOR: Would the honourable minister mind a supplementary auestion? In view of the very warm and humid weather, has he given any thought to splitting and salting the fish in case the fish 11ets bad enroute to Burgeo? 3094-

.lune 23. l ~72 . r.,rc 0 7 5. Par.e 2 - · nph ''ll . CHEESEMAN· In connec-1 lrn with that nuestion. lfy. Snco ker. in consultnt:lon with the nJ1ml. we thouj?.ht It would he oc\vj1101,Je. rdrcl vou.

T shC'uld ,-erhnns o,,,,lify thi.s ~,hole thinr hv swinr that tld s is in the nature of ex,,ediencv and must of neccssitv he 11nmethinr of nn expe r Jrrentnl naturE> Lo try and ep.se the situacinn, Aut I h11vr alreadv 1n con11ultation ~·1th the- pl ant alerted thc-r- lo the f'OAsihiJ I t v of some fish hP:fnr soft hN·nus<>, lnev:lt111'lv. in thl,; kfn,l of 1,•P;,th<>r 1md undl•r Alriost 11nv Condit fnns,;u; the honourable me-mt-er ~•ill l•e wel 1 11wnre, thPTf' Is o 111-eJfhoorl of some soft f:lsh. ~n, in c•rde r co forest.oll nny cor,,r,ltc-at:1001; or tn 11ttlize fully th<' r,rocluc-t.wl' have 11l r.<>1Hlv l'lnde nrr:inp,ements r,r, 1 o.;hnutd sa", askecl therrt tn rnnl<e nrranpements that lf on th" o ut· turn of thr r.i t ch 11 nerccnta;e of it is in fnct not fit to f'n " ' raipht lntCl fr<•!-!h fish onr.r;ic1.,ns, i.t \'ould he spJit nnd saltrd. yes. l'R_.

W1NSOll_: Tn ntl1er words. tlwy ore f'<'ttlnr rid of their fis h, they 11re nnw nblc to sell che1r fish. tfR. c::mmsro-•AN · offerinr today. Thnt ls rorrect. They ore takjnp , nll tlie ffsh '~:.1:. ·.B_.~,9_1-1_F_'_ Mr. Srenh•r. 1 wou lei lJ kc tn direct a ouPstion to the Hinist.er of F'.ducoti<'n. l'n,; the mini.seer h11d a chance tn check 1.nto "iss Norman's case any furthc-r and does he hnve iinvthinr new to report Lo the l!ou se? 3005

June 23, 1972 Tape 976 MR. CARTER: No, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing new to report to the House. ~- ROWE(F.W.): Mr. Speaker, another question to the honourable Minister of Education 1 in the absence of the Premier. Could the minister inform the House if and when he intends to bring in legislation before the House in order to amend the Education Act and the Newfoundland Human Rights Code in order to ensure that religious freedom will he protected for these individuals seeking certification to the teaching profession? MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr.

Speaker, as the question is couched,in terms that the honourable member is not up on the matter of ?OVernment policy, of what the government intends to do in the future. ~ :._SF_EAKER: I think I have to agree that it is asking a ~uestion on the matter of government policy and it is out of order at this time. nn motion that the House p:o into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: ~----- -- JM - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: 1131(03) (02): Order! Heading Xl - Social Services and Rehabilation: MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilation last night in this honourable House made or implied some charges in connection with the administration of housing assistance, materials to repair houses in the Electoral District of Bell Island. The statements were as damaging, Sir, as they were vague. Mr. Chairman, I request tbis honourable House to ask the minister or that the minister be required to make the target of these char~es specific.

Is he attacking the administrative and field staff of his department, Sir, or a merchant or a group of merchants on Bell Island or elsewhere or are his charges to be regarded as an attack 3096 . ct

.lune 23, 1972 .f ~I - 2 uro n i-he intrirtty of me as the member of thf' l!o use of. Assem hly fo-c Rell Tsland who was his prwdccessor in rhe fio• lal ServicPR por tfolio? T TE!CJ\iest the 1!011se, Mr . Ch.1irma n, to insrrn r t the rd.nistcr co make sneciFic the r ar~e t of hi R r hArrcs and furthrr thAt he t hen nrod,we the evi<lemcr to suh s t nnt:111,.., I hi>M ;,nrJ thot. ~•, .

Cha1.r oian, I t' there• ii,; any r enl inclil'Atio n nf rhe •~iR,1se c,f puh .1 lc 'nnr1i- nn Tl@l 1 li-lanr' thar tlw re ensue A jucl1.cjnl en<l11 f rv, 1111 i nvesti.<-<1ti1•n bv the l'f'M!' o r :ir>v chem M• n mi R<"h:I evous Ii he I . t'R, HTC.Kl::Y: . ~ -. . - . - . !'Ir. C.h::iirm-rm. bC"forr l <teal with t h e 309 7

June 23, 1972 Tape 977 (afternoon) PK - 1 MR. HICKEY: matter at hend in any specific way,I would like to correct one statement that appeared in the news media last night, and I believe it was the Leader of the Opposition who made the statement. I stand to be correct but at least some member from the opposition made it. In conunenting on what transpired in this Honourable House last , night it was implied that it was rather vague as to whether or not charges had indeed been made by me against the honourable member for Bell Island.

But a statement in fact was very clearly made by, as I say 1the Leader of the Opposition or some other person on that side,to the effect that I had made a very vicious and vile attack personally, a personal attack on the honourable the member for Bell Island, May I first of all - MR. ROBERTS: I said that. MR. HICKEY: Okay. Mr. Chairman, I intend to deal with that first. But first of all I would just like to quickly say that as long as I have been in this House, I have not initiated or even when provoked involve myself in any personal attack on any member of this House. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, dating back to 1966,when I first took my place in this honou~able House, in my maiden speech I outlined very briefly and very quickly that I did not come here to involve myself in any personality contest or assassination, That I would make no statements without they being well founded and when having made such statements I would not retract them. Those words, Mr. Chairman, are recorded in Hansard for anyone to dig out, Since that date I have been the subject and target of many personal attacks. There is nothing left, Mr.

Chairman, to be implied or said about me, But, Mr, Chairman, I take that as part and parcel of that which goes unfortunat~~y with the profession of politics in this Province. But I will not stoop so low nor lower myself to the level of those who carry on in such a manner. Anyone 3098 - ,.,.

,une 23, 1972 Tape 977 (aft ·ernoon) PK - 2 MR. HICKEY· who wishes to involve himself in a personal attack on me may do so, hut may not expect a rebuttal along the same line or level. So I therefore deny categorically making any personal attacks on the honourable membP.r for Bell Island and no matter how I am provoked or how many times I shall not ever do so.

Furthermore, Mr. r.hairman, all ready in the text of Hansard yesterday afternoon and last night 1 on two separate occasions,T repeated the fol.lowing statement, tam not sure it is goint to he verbat{m because it is from memory . somethinr, to this effect - that whatever I had said, whatever I say now or whatever I shall say in the duration of discussion of those estimates must not be misconstrued as any personal reference or attack on the honourable memher for Bell Island. llut that my criticism and remarl ·s are directed rather to the honourablf! gentleman in his capacity as minister and insofar as the honourable gentleman is concernec\,whom 1 replaced in the department or which I now head.

Whatever my remarks may be in the f, ture discussion of those estimates, Mr. Chairman, I want it understood and 1 want them accepted along those lines. I therefore made no personal attack and I am therefore guilty of no such charge. In view of the hassel that took place last night,the finest hit of twisting and foot work that was every performed in this House was performed last night 3099

dune 23, 1972 Tape No, 978 NC - 1 MR. HICKEY: by hon. gentlemen on the other side, some hon, gentleman, because not all participated. Words misinterpreted, a case made out of nothing. In terms of charges against the hon. gentlemen, there were no specific charges of corruption against the hon. gentleman. Mr. Chairman, it is not really in keeping with the rules of this hon, House that one reads speeches every day and I as a rule do not.

So, Sir, what I said last night was off the cuff, to use the old Newfoundland expression, But having witnessed such a fantastic job of twisting the facts and words last night, I have decided what I shall say today,in answer to those remarks,will in fact be read and are written, I therefore make the following statement. I have reviewed the transcript of my remarks made in the House of Assembly last night with reference to the situation on Bell Island during 1971-1972 relating to building materials and the scandalous situation that the facts revealed.

The facts that I have outlined to the House show that the honourable Member for Bell Island, while Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation 1 during the period in question, was aware of what was happening on Bell Island but did nothing to correct the situation, That the then minister abused his power and authority as minister to interfer in decisions made by the officials on Bell Island, That the then minister condoned,if in fact he did not cause much of the situation, That the facts revealed incompetence on the part of the then minister and abuse of his authority.

There is evidence of many irregularities which should be investigated. I did not state last night and I do not state now that the hon, Member for Bell Island was involved personally in the circumstances of corruption that are evident,but as minister he is responsible for the conduct of his department and certainly involved himself in decisions made on Bell Island,both as member and minister, 3100 .....

1':we , o . 978 NC - 2 MR. HICKEY: to a far greater extent than normal. As I said last night, if the likes of this were to go on while I am minister, 1 would be responsible for it. The Member for Bell Island is certainly responsible for the situation on Bell Island last year and must accept that responsibility. l certainly do not intend to retract or change any statement I made last night and as a result, Mr. Chairman, I am asking now that a judicial enquiry be established to in fact establish the facts and the responsibility of those involved in the scandalous abuse that occurred on Bell Island during the financfal year 19 71- 72. 3101

June 23, 1972 Tape no. 979 Page 1 - MRW MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, first of all let me say quite emphatically that on our side,and I speak for my colleague in particular as well as for all of us, we welcome this enquiry. I found the whole proceeding last night quite distasteful. I have looked through the Hansard, which was supplied to us through the good offices of the Leader of the House, the staff of the House. I am seeking professional advice as to whether or not a question of privilege is in the words. Since I did not get the transcript until about 2:40 P,M. , Sir, I have at this stage nothing I could say.

We do welcome the enquiry. I think it is the only way to resolve this matter. Whether or not there were any personal charges against the gentleman from Bell Island, we will leave that by one side. The fact remains there were very grave charges made respecting the administration of the department. I think even the minister and I are on common ground with that one. I think the government have done the right thing to inititiate a judicial enquiry, My colleague had previously requested it, I believe on the airways at lunch hour and indeed in his statement here. We will put the matter to the test.

The charges have been made and for my part and for the part of this party, Sir, they should be investigated. If there is anything wrong, then let it come out and let the consequences that muse -•'follow, let them follow. I suppose it is too early to ask who is going to be on the enquiry. I assume that it will be one of the judges, be it a Supreme Court Judge or a CJunty court Judge, it should be a judge. I assume that the enquiry will be in public. The Minister of Finance last evening said that this is something that he would have had in mind.

I aos\lllle, it goes without saying, that all involved will be entitled to be represented by counsel. I assullle further that all the relevant papers will be produced. Oqviously, my colleague will have to have access to official papers because most of the information is contained in these official papers. Now with that I do not feel that it would be in order to say a great deal more on that point, Sir. The enquiry should be set up as quickly as possible. When we have the report of the enquiry, then we 3102 ,--,, ,

June 23, 19 72 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 979 Page 2 will know what to do. I submit the matter should wait until then. Let me, however, before I sit down deal with the comments of the gentleman from St, John's East (Extern) about the statements I made last evening, I did in fact make statements on two radio stations, I would have had on the third but they did not ask me.

On both CJON and VOCM I did them on tape.in which I said that the minister had made a vile and vicious personal attack upon my colleage, the gentleman from Bell Island, That obviously is a matter cf. opinion, Your Honour, As a matter of opinion, I still believe it to be so and I may add , having read the transcript quickly - I read quickly the transcript of the remarks made by the honourable minister in the committee last evening, Sir, J stand by that, I think it was a vile and vicious personal attack, The committee, if it is in order, can debate that at any length they want, I do not know if it is in order or not.

Every one on that side has said - th e Mc n • f ac.L the minister says he does not consider it so, does not make it so. It is a matter of opinion, Everybody in the province will form their own opinions. I have mine. I did make the statement. I cannot deny that. I would not deny that. The only other thing I would say was to repeat that I found the entire business distasteful last evening. I am not imputing blame on any one individual or any one side.

I have stood in this House, Sir, time and time again and as have other members - the hon. member for Carbonear, the Minister of Health,has said so when he introduced his estimates the other day, when he lead off with a statement to open the discussion on his salary vote. Many members have said that they do not want personalities in it. Well last night, Sir, we saw a disgusting exhibition. I am not imputing blame. I am not saying that any one individual or any one party is to blame. I am not saying that it is more than one. I am just merely commenting that we saw a disgusting exhibition .

We saw what I consider to be a vicious personal · attack, My colleague may have provoked him . He called a plan 3103

June 23, 19 72 Ta.1,e no. 9 79 Page 3 Mr. Roberts h II of the lllinister's hair-brained. That is not personal. It is a description of a plan. I only know what I read here. I have not seen the full Hansard. The Hansard begins with the minister saying, "I think it is about . time we took the wraps off." He went down hill from there. But that is another matter, Your Honour and whether or not it is a question of privilege, we will see. But such things as accusing the honourable gentleman of having bought re-election, 3104

June 23, 1972, Tape 980, Pape l -- aph obviously a rather low person;il attack. If the committee wants to debate it, if it. is order, Sir, I will gladly debate it. I rather think it is not in order HP , CHA IRJ-iAN • . -------- Order! At this sta~e the Chair feels that. the discussion and debate has to be strictly relevant to the headinp: 1131-03-02, lon1t- · tenn assistance. Since there is no motion with respect to a matter of privilege be.fore the House, or in fact no other motion, except this headinp. of expenditure, the discussion should he strictly relevant on this point.

The Chair has permitted a certain amount of leeway because it was obvious there were certain matters left hanp.:i.np. which had to be cleared up. But at this stape, the r.hair feeJs that rather than go into detail, into the matters discussed in the llouse last night, this may or may not be 11 ru1tter of pdvilepe to he read at a later date. hut at this point the Chair rules it out of order. ~- ROBERTS'. Thank you Your Honour.

I had no intention of ro:!nl! any further with it by the way, but -- - I appreciate Your Honour's latitude in allowing (ii) the matter to he raised and allowinp. le.mre for this side to reply to the statement made by the minister. I am ouite willing to let the matter drop and merely to express the hope that this judicial enQuiry will be set up as Quickly as possible, so they can p.et to work as Quickly as possible. Inc:!dents lilre tM s do nothinl! to enhance public life in this province.

Political debate is one thing, I am all for it,as hard as any siile can pive it or as iiny side can take it, but incicients such as we saw last nip.:ht, Sir. p-o far beyond the normal politic,"ll debate and I am glad the poverrunent are settinp up this enouiry. Let us get it done Quickly and let us pet it to work as ouic~lv as possible and let us not talk about it any more until we have the report at which stage we may or may not have something to discuss. Before we leave that point, "r. Chairman, I want the 3105

June 23. 1972, Tape 980, Page 2 -- apb indulgence of the Chairman for a few short moments just to respond to some of the statements made by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. The hon. gentleman is going ••. ~~E..:.. Mr. Chairman, I think we are entitled ••• MR. ROBERTS: May I raise a point of order, Sir? ~R. CHAIRJ,!AN: What is the point? MR.

ROBERTS: Your Honour has ruled that the debate is to be relevant to whatever the subhead,(! forget, 1131 something) if hon. members on that side wish to reply, I for one would have no quarrel with that, but I would ask that Your Honour assure us of the right to reply. If we are going to have a debate, each side must get in it. Each side has now spoken, the minister led off. Your Honour permitted that, Your Honour permitted me on this side to make a short reply then Your Honour made a ruling.

Now, if there is to be any tiling more, Your Honour, then I submit, on a point of order, it is out of order unless we are to relax the rule and allow a debate. MR. CROSBIE: On that point of order, ~r. Chairman. Just let us get the sequence of events right. The matter was led off by the member for Bell Island, responded to by the member for St. John's East Extern, the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, then the Leader of the Opposition had a few comments and in order to conclude this matter it is only right that we make a few comments. AN HON. ME!'AllER: (Inaudible) MR.

CROSBIE: I do not intend to get into any long debate. I just intend, ~r. Chairman, to make it quite plain that in our view there was nothing damaging,as being vague 1 in what was said by the hon. minister last night. This was not a matter, and anyone who has looked at tQe transcript or heard the speech, it is not a matter of any vile or personal attack on the member for Bell Island, it is a matter of comment on the conduct of a minister of the past government. It is auite in order in this House, the same as the conduct of any member of the present 3106 -~-· .... ,.

June 23, 1972, Tape 980, Pa~e 3 - - apb ministry. His conduct as a minister is a valid subject of debate in this House. It was a vali,1 sub1ect of debate when the Pstimates of the Minister of Rducc1tion were discussed. Our conduct as mjnisters, the conduct of hon. ~entlemen opposite when they were ~inisters is the sub .1ect that should be discussed in this House and the thinr:s discussed by the hon. ~inister of Social Services and Pehahilitation last nil)'ht were auite in orc1E'r, because thev de;il with ah11ses,if the facts are established 1 in a<lninistratjon and the conduct of .i detrn.rtment of ~overnnent.

They are public affairs and public funds an<l they were auite in order to be discussed. Frankly, if that is distasteful, f-'r. Chairman, thPn situations like this, the corollary would he that situations like this should never be revealed and never discussed in the House of Assemblv and that is obviously ridiculous. Whether 1.t is distasteful or not, it was not,in our view, }fr. Chairman, :mythi.np to do with personal! tiPs. ThesP are all valid matters for discussion as matters of public policv, what occurred last year. 'fatters such as thjs are 11lways a valid 1rnriect of discussion and comment in this House.

Anyone who lool·s thronr:h the trimscript will see how f aj rly the minister dealt wj th it. AN HON. ¥EMBER· (Inaudible) '~_: _ _9_R_O~~B_I_E_: We do not want to P-et into a Ion!? discusidon. I can point out other places there and the whole nub of the matter actually ... AN HON. 1'1El-'llF.R · ---- --- -·~ ~ Clear cut cases? One, 3107

June 23, 1972 Tape 981 JM - 1 MR . ROBERTS : buying their way back to the Assembly. MR HICKEY: -----·---- Mr. Chairman, if we want to go into the debate, we want the facts. ~ _CROSBIE: We do not want to go into debate. MR HICKEY: If we want a war, let us go. MR CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, in concluding, the nuh of the matter is this, as was said by the minister last night: There is only one man responsible for this,the honourable gentleman opposite who headed that department and if the likes of this were to go on in the next year I would be responsible for it and I would be man enough to come here and take my medicine or if it were this bad I would not sit here, Mr. Chairman, because I would resign. These are questions of responsibility of a minister. MR. ROBERTS: That I agree with.

With that statement I do agree. ~ ~ !._OSBI~ As far as a public enquiry is concerned,I discussed this with the Premier today and he is in agreement with having a public enquiry. He cannot be here this afternoon,although he would have liked to have been. We have not contacted anyone yet but we hope to obtain a judge of either the Supreme or District Court. It should be a public enquiry and/ as you know, under the Public Enquiries Act it is up to the Commissioner whether he holds some sessions in private or public.

We would certain hope that it would be in public but we cannot interfere with the Comm.issioners discretion if he decides certain - MR. ROBERTS: Will documents be made available on this matter, ~~S~~~~IE: Oh certainly, yes. Obviously these documents would have to be. Documents would be available. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: You cannot investigate a matter like this unless - 3108

.lune 23, 1972 Tape 981 .TM - 2 MR. ROBERTS : Well, that is 1'1Y point but I am - MR, CROSBIE· The files of the administration are open. So as soon as ---· - -- we can get the concurrence of a responsible independent person it would certainly be set up. MR. ROBEPTS: The sooner the better. ~ .__CROSBilfL That is enough on that now . M_!l_: __ H_I_<~.19~!_: Mr. Chairrn,m, mav I ask one question hefore we continue, I have heard the remarks from the Leader of the 0pposition with regards to his comments last night 11nd T have no desire to contin11e this kind of debate but I am not goinp: to sit here, 1-'r.

Chairman, :m<l he branded as someone who involved hiTT1self in oersonal attacks. I aJI" inst not -standing for that and I ask Your Honour rir,ht now to tell me if mv comments insofar as the remaining estimates are concerned for mv department are r,oing to be J imi ted to _iust 2 close-mouthecl performance. Am I goinp to give information to the tax payers and the recipients of my department in this province or am I not? If I do and it happens to reflect on the administration or in fact the incompetencr of the former minister 1 am l now again invoJving myself in a vile personal attack?

Let me have some direction, Mr. Chairman, before we pursue this matter further. MR. CHAIRMAN : The honourable minister is asking the Chair to rule on a hypothetical question. If the honourahle minister in the course of debate strays from the matters which are relevant to the sub-headinr-s in the estimates or if the honourahle member breaks one of the stand inf! o;rders of the House I then the Chair or. one of the honourable members of the House would hrin~ him up.

Apart from that the honourable minister has ,.as any other mem~)er of the House,comnlete freedom of speech to present what he desires to present to the House. M_R_:__li_I~L_ Mr, Chairman, I think Your Honour misinterpreted my question. My question is simply this.in the discussion of my 3109

Jun e 23 , 972 Tape 981 estimates and to justify the expenditure for this year, am I not: free t:o comment: on the manner of administration in this department: during the past: year and t:o illustrate changes and what: is not going t:o happen in the coming year? Will this be misconstrued as personal attack? That is all I did last night and I am accused of it today. I ask for direction now Your Honour before I pursue the matter further. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable minister I believe is raising a point on which the Leader of the Opposition could make a comment. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I can say quite simply, Mr. Chairman, that 3110 .m - 3

June 23, 1972 Tape ·No. 982 NC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I have no objection to the hon. gentleman saying, alleging, trying to prove, whatever you want, that my colleague or any of us was or is incompetent anymore than he could have any objection to our trying that in reverse, Whether or not what he says will be a vile and personal attack is first of all a matter of opinion and secondly iL would depend enti1•ely on what he said, If he said something was a vile and personal atlack,it woulJ be that but if not he is as free as the flowers in May to hammer at 11s, MR.

CHAIRMAN: I would brlng to the attentioP of the honourable Leader of the Opposition, with respect to the use of the terms 1 ~ile 1 • and I believe the other "vicious", "v:I\E> and vic:ious" I believ<' was one phrase that waH used, as the Chair sees it , i.t is OP the border of being unparliamentary. If I co'lld site a , ouple of examp1E· which have been held to be unparliamentary because of beior. acutsive or/and insulting; ''viJ lains'', "vicious and vulgar'', these are terms which have been held to be unparliamentHry. Now the.

Cl-iai r has permitted the le rm "vile and vicious" or it has been used and it was not hrnught up on a point of ordet at lha• · time, However, the Chair feels that this could be consid€,red abusive and insul tinp. language if continued and depending on the d r cums tances. So the Chair just felt it should bring this point to the attention of the honourable the Leader of the Opposition.

With respect to the discussion, the Chair feels that what has happened is an example of the danger of permitting general discussion without adhering to the standing orders which rec;,<ire strict relevency on the estimates, After thP general minister's statement is made and comments hy other members on this statement, the standing orders then require strict relevence with respect to each subhead of expenditure. ".'he honourable l>lember for Bell Island has risen and I would :1-,sume wishes to make another comment on this point. Again the 3111

June 23, 1972 Tape No. 982 NC - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Chair, since a certain amount of leeway has been given, the Chair feels the hon. Member for Bell Island sho-uld be permitted to speak and the hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation has also indicated he wishes to speak,but at that stage the Chair feels that further discussion on this point will probably be out of orde~. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, all I want to say is that last evening when this vile, per~onal attack so called was made. MR. HICKEY: We are away to the races again. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Chair has just brought the attention of the honourable the Leader of the Opposition to the use of the phrase " vile and personal", "vile and vicious", and while the Chair cannot find specific reference to the word, "vile", page 130 of Beauchesne does refer to the word "villain" which I would assume has the same derivation. Accordingly the Chair rules that the use of the term as applied to an hon. member of this House, the use of the term "vile" is out of order and would ask the honourable Member for Bell Island to take notice of this. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

However, I consider the whole issue myself, personally, is unparliamentary. Sir, I want to say to this House that there is nobody in this hon. House who works as hard at politics as I do. The hon. members on the opposite side realize that. But, Sir, this is far removed from politics. This is not a political matter.

I can debate the issues in the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation with the hon. minister, debate the issues, Sir, and the hon. minister may accuse me of being incompetent and I may think that he is a fool, Sir, and we both could be wrong, So I can debate back and forth with the hon, minister, but,Sir, no member of this hon. House, in my opinion, has a right to come into this House 3112 ..•

June 23, 1972 Tape No. 982 NC - 3 MR. NEARY: and attack anothP.r member's character or his honour or his integrity and therefore, 3113

June 23, ' 1972, Tape 983, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I welcome this judicial enquiry and I hope that the government will keep it above politics and.as my colleague the honourable Leader of the Opposition has stated, I would like to see a Judge of the Supreme Court conduct the enquiry. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: I concur with the honourable Leader of tbe Opposition. I would like to see this enquiry conducted by a Judge of the Supreme Court so that it would be kept above politics, and let the chips fall where they may, Sir. MR. HICKEY: ~r. Chairman, I hope this ends this kind of debate.

I am just going to make a few brief remarks. The hon. gentleman says for someone to come in here and attempt to start or engage in a personal attack or attack someone's character, he well knows from where he speaks. I have been the subject of it for five years. The reason I raised the question, Mr. Chairman, and ask for .•• AN HON, MEMBER· (Inaudible) --~-·· --- ----- - MR. HICKEY: By the hon. gentleman who accused me of having to resign from my department. Now, will I recite MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! order!

The honourable minister now is out of order in that the minister is referring to previous debate in this honourable House. If the honourable minister would speak to the matter that has been raised by the honourable member for Bell Island, and again the Chair realizes that the Chair is placing certain restraints on the honourable minister's debate. However, the Chair feels that the only way that any control can be kept over this debate is if the Chair insists that the debate remain as narrow as possible at this particular time. MR. HICKEY: Fine, Mr. Chairman, I am quite prepared to abide by Your Honour's ruling.

All I ask is that the hon. gentleman abide by Your Honour's ruling and discontinue such nice words as, fool, clo~m and all of this business, The question I asked,! asked for direction. The reason I asked for this is because my remarks last night were branded a personal, vile attack, but we have settled that part. 3114 !.'

June 23, 1972, Tape 983, Page 2 -·- apb ~r. Chairman, in continuinP- to discuss my estimates, if I continue to point out the weaknesses of the former administration under the hon. rentleman when he was minister, is that a personal attack? Would the hon. rentleman on the other side continue, dare to attempt to show the Minister of Education as bein!! incmnpetent? We had almost two weeks of that. Was that a personal attack?

If in fact it were then hon. p:entlemen on the other side, every sinple one of the.r.i are p:uilty. ~o now, let us continue with the estimates and, as the hon. gentleman says, if he wishes to de.hate the issue then let hiM sticJr to the issue and I assure him that t·1e w5 ll pive hil'l all the debate he wishes. On motion, 1131-03-·02, carried. On motion. total subhead 1131, carried. On motion, total subhead 1132, carried. ~'R. CHAIIDIAN: Shall 1133-<H, carry? ~'R. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, before we pass the Child Welfare vote, I would just like to make a few hdef remarks.

I would li!-e to say that possibly out of the entire efforts of my department, there is one area that I am certainly nrepared to p,ive cre.<lit to the. hon. irentleman whom I replaced in my department, especially with rer-ard to the efforts that he made in the adoption proP-ramme. :-1r, Chairman, I am betnP- ouite stncere. We have made great strides in the adoption proP-ramme :In the past three or fC'1ur years and we are cont:inutnp. to il'lprove tn this area. While we agree hasically wtth the pror:ramme, there are some chimp:es that will he Made.

I would like to say that one of them is the matter of adoption month. }fr. Chairman, we do not believe that cont:i .nuinp. with adoptton month is the direction in which we should he poing. There is the fr,ar that havinp an adoption month, one month durtng the year when people, when special emphasis are placed on the adoption programme and when there is possibly an tnflux of applications, the possibility of a hurrted 1ob of investigating may be done, the result beinp, of course, that wronp: placements 3115

June 23, 1972 Tape 984 (afternoon) PK - 1 MR. HICKEY: could be made or in fact errors could result. For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I believe what we should be doing,instead of having an adoption month,is continue to advertise our programme and point out to the general public that every month of the year is adoption month. We will also discontinue, Mr. Chairman, publishing photographs of the children available for adoption. There will probably be two samples, one of a boy and a girl. Mr.

Chairman, the idea of publishing the pictures of children available for adoption indeed is very distressing to the natural mothers of those children. Their natural mothers are inclined to continue to look to the papers to see if theirs is going to appear this month or this week or what have you. We do not feel it is necessary . Fo1 that reason we propose to change that. However, Mr. Chairman, the adoption programme in general is to continue as it has in the past 1 with the exception of a few changes such as outlined.

And as I said earlier, I am quite sincerly, I commend the former minister for the efforts he made and I feel sure that in this area, if in no other, a firm foundation has been laid on which we can built and eventually hopefully solve the problem of the large number of children that are available. On motion 1133-01 carried. On motion total subheads 1133 through 1135 carried. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chainnan, we passed the vote en the Girls Home and Training School. There is a little information I would like to provide. There are a few general comments I would like to make.

First of all, I would like to clear up any misunderstanding,as a result of comments made by the former minister with regards to the superintendent of that institution~ Mr. Chairman, he was not fired or dismissed, as was indicated. I am very disappointed that that remark was made. The lady was transferred from that institution to a position at headquarters. She is a very capable lady in her 3116

June 23, 1972 Tape 984 (afternoon) PK - 2 MR. HICKEY: present position, well qualified, professional in every reGpect. I resent any suggestion by anyone that she was dismissed or in fact transferred for any reason other than general change of policy and improvement in the administration of the home. At a later date, Mr. Chairman, there will be changes announced with regards to this institution to further improve the overall administration. On motion total subhead 1136 carried, MR. W.N. ROWE: 1152-01 - '-Ir. Chairman, is this the subhead under which welfare officers salarie s come?

I want to make a few remarks, Sir, of a specific nature concerning a matter affecting my own district concerning wh ir.h the honourah le minister is al ready aware, but 1 feel 1 have to give it r,uhlic utterance. Several weeks ago, T guess it is a couple of weeks ago now, I was contacted by some neople, some of the ,~. dfng citizens of the Town of LaScie, in mv Di.strict of White Bay South, with the disconerting information that the welfare office was ahout to he moved fr, ,m that town some forty mil es away nver dirt road and pretty poor dirt road.

I might 3dd, there is a lot of traffic over the road and there is ,m industrial development there, mining development which causes that road to deteriorate very rapidly, to mnve the welfare officer to llaie Verte. As soon as 1 got word of the move, Sir, I contacted the honourable Minister of ~ocial Services and Rehabj]itation and informed him of the uproar hy the people of LaScie and 1 might add in the surrounding cnmmunities, some in my district and some in the D'l.!\tric.t of Green Ray.

During the course of our telephone conversation the minister mentL 1 ned to me that what he would be doing would be postponing that move until he could get some reaction from the people of LaScie as to whether it was in fact a proper move to be made, the transferal of that welfare 3117

June 23, 1972 Tape 984 (afternoon) MR. ROWE , W.N. officer to Baie Verte. Some time later I heard from the people of LaScie that the welfare officer had in fact been moved before they had had PK - 3 any opportunity at all to voice their opinion by way of a petition or any other way. Now I am not saying that the minister, I hope the minister is hearing what I am saying, I am not saying that the minister deliberately broke his word to me, All I know is that the minister informed me of what would transpire namely that the welfare officer would not be moved until some reaction was received from the people.

Yet within ~?o or three days after that the welfare officer was moved to Baie Verte. I am not saying he deliberately broke his word to me. However, I did convey that message to the people of LaScie and they were reasonably satisfied• They were going to look into the matter and decide among themselves as to whether the welfare officer should be moved or not. But before they got a chance to do so, he was moved,after I had conveyed the information,that he was not going to be moved, to the people.

I do not think the minister deliberately broke his word or when he was telling me that he was not going to move the welfare officer, he was going to postpone the move that he meant at that time to continue with the move. I think perhaps the pressure of the department or ordinary lack of memory in a specific case like that or merely an oversight on the minister's

part caused him not to continue with the assurance which he had given to me. In any event, Sir, the people of LaScie subsequently, I think to a man and to a woman,sent a petition to the honourable minister protesting the move of this welfare officer. Sir, during the time that I formed a part of the administration, similar attempts were made by the Department of Welfare at that time, to centralize some of the offices, particularly this one in the District of White Bay South and to move them all to a central location. 3118

June 23, 1972 Tape 984 (aften:ioon) l'K - 4 Mll. ROWE, W.N. As R result o f pressure I was able Lo bd1,g to bear, as member for the district, not politically nr~ssure but pressure which I brought to hear thinldnit .-,nd kn"wfn g that I was arcing in the hest interest of the peor\e of l,aScie, move forestalled. l was able t o r,et that Because 1t Reemed to me, Sir, that lt ~as not in the bes t interest 0£ the reorle to have all t.he c>ffices, whether welfare or 1,ealth or otherwise,centralized in one area in the dii;trict or one t ,,wn 1n any district in the l'rovin ce of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The reason l wanted to make sure of this in the case of LaScie was for this simple fact, n lo vel y tmm ttke LaScie, 1,2"10 people n r J,500 neople, a fairly viahle popul:-1t\on unit,il'l u:yi.ng to pul l Itself up, tn huild ur its social can1.tol, to huild up its government servir;es . 3119

June 23, 1972 Tape No. 985 NC - 1 We were able to get a doctor stationed in LaScie a year ago and that has been a great contribution to the town, We have been pressing to get other government services put into LaScie and to me it is a retro~rade,an unprogressive move now to have an element of government services, such as a welfare officer, move forty or fifty miles away,over a gravel road, to the Town of Baie Verte.

The minister says that he is going to give it a test period, a trial period over the summer months, and I hope that during that period of time it will come home to him that it was not a wise move to make. I am all in favour of having larger centralized offices in the province so that you can have a degree of specialization in some of these offices, Mr. Chairman, so that in a place like Baie Verte you can have welfare officers, or social workers, or welfare workers of various kinds, who do have a degree of specialization, Of course this can only be administered from a central town affecting a whole area.

But in the case of an ordinary, and I do not mean ordinary in a depreciatin~or derogatory term in the case of an ordinary welfare officer, Sir, it does not seem to me to serve any great purpose to have the welfare office move to a central position and he has to go down two or three days a week I think to LaScie in order to hold clinic there. The people of LaScie are fearful that these types of government services are going to be pulled away from them and they are going to be left sort of out on the periphery of things, out oa the margin of life in the province.

They would like to have their fair share, not for the sake of having it but for the use that government services can be put to they would like to have their fair share of regional offices, whatever they are called, offices located in that town. So I would like to ask the minister to describe to me,so that I can convey to the people what exactly is the point of moving an ordinary welfare officer-away from a town like LaScie, What is the 3120

June 23, 1972 Tape No. 985 NC - 2 point of discomforting the people there? What is the point of making it more difficult for the people to gain access to the welfare officer? 1 am not only thinkinp in terms of those people who get relief of various kinds, social assl.stance or long-term assistance or short-term assistance. I am not thinking only of that, I am thinking of the idea of having a trained personnel of government in a town which is located,somewhat divorced from the larger tm~ts of the province.

What is the point of removing this trained government personnel from that area?Because there are definite benefits to society, to the social welfare of a place like LaScie. He is a man to whom people could P,O for advice.

I know from - without divulging a11y secrets that I gained when I was in the administration or as member for the dist ri.ct, 1 do know that there are some problems in LaScie and places like LaScie, particularly with young people, a t~ndencv toward some delinquent activities of various types, and the removal of an officer like this is certainly not goin~ to have the effect of tempering or toning down or trying to get rid of some of these delinquent tendencies, Sir.

As a matter of fact, the reverse would be true and we will see that the removal of this element of government authority, government advice, government consultation, will have :tdverse effect particularly on the young people of a place lik,· f,aScie. So I urge the minister 1 in this specific instance, to rethink, to reconsider the move, the transfer that he made in that respect, I would imagi-ne 1 without knouin~ 1 that the same thing has happened in a few other towns and communities in and around Newfoundland and Labrador. I really question the validity of chis tyoc of r.entralization. I do not disaFree.

I do not say that a p!ace like J.aScie can have a welfare officer who is especially trained to deal with prnblem children or a welfare officer 3121

June 23, 1972 Tape No, especially trained to deal with delinquent children and etc., etc., various specialties within social or welfare training. All I am saying is that in a place like LaScie and the communities surrounding LaScie, they should not have taken from them a welfare officer and therefore be deprived of this element of government service. Because certainly 1 without saying anything else ahout it, in my opirion it fli.es in the face of the present administration's stnted policy of trying wherever to bring government to the people. I hope that they did not merely mean that in the political sense.

I mean cabinet ministers or members will he more accessable to the people, I hope that they meant it in this sense, that all government services will be more easily accessable to the people of ~ewfoundland and Labrador. But by moving this welfare in LaScie and I would imagine in other cases, they are not doing that.

Sir, they are doi.ng the reverse and I do not think that this type of centralization serves a very valid or good purpose, "Ill, HICKEY: Ifr, Chairman, first of all let me deal with the aspect of the problem raised by my hon. friend,with regards to the conversation that we both had in relation to this matter. First of all I can say that there was certainly no chan~e of mind on my

part in terms of the conversation we had in connection with the moving of the welfare officer at that particular time. It came about because within a matter of two to three days I believe from the time we discus,;;cd the issue, the welfare officer was due to move and certain arrangements had been made, Maybe I can go so far as to say that if I had to think of dealing with it immediately, maybe the welfare officer would not have moved as quickly as he did. I do think,however, Mr.

Chairman, in fairness and I do not think I would be honest if I did not admit this, that ultimately I think he would have moved because I could not provide a constructive, reasonable argument to my offici.als to keep that official at LaScie, 3f22

June 23, l':J72 Tape No. 985 NC -- 4 ;md neither could T n•fnse 1 as it uere., just for pure pol it lc.:al reasons nor any other reason wit\10ut therr, bt>inr. just ii iablc, Lo expe, iment as il were in a situation which I Irst and forer~ost is to imprl,vf, the service that we provi,le to t:1t· people of that r,encra L area ancl in particular the Town of l..1S< i(, an<l as well, from an economical point of view, to save Tl'Dney, iMpr,)VC the sfc'rvic.:e in tern1>l of the decision making process. '-Ir, Chairman, l" 11ere 11re other areas in the province 1vhich are under~oinp, simil i.u tests .-is it were.

I th ink that is the rl~ht word to use. Certai11lv i.a~cie is not t•w onlv one. I want my hon. friend to know that. We ,,re not necessad 1 y pi ck iur. on that particular area, It is p.7rL of /l policy wh lei, ,-ms again devised by the former administration. T ;in the last ln thP world, ).Ir. Chairman, to knock a policy until I can n·;,lace it 1-.'ith ,me better. l aP,ree with m)• hon.

I dencl that attcn,pts possibly to move the particular officinL w\,o mi.P,ht h:1ve been tl;crc, failed or maybe the political stde of it won over the. administr::ittve side. llo11,ever, I gave my hon. friend's assi,; tant, I believe, or one of his office staff an assurance by telep!ione when I discovered that the v,ove had in fact been made 0 As far as 1 was concerned it was a test move, it was a situation that 1 wanted to experiment with now,even Jc1ore so now than my offid.als,because th,· :tdministration, tlie administrative part of my department, my senior officials af; Hell as the regional people at the field level were recommending this. ~!r, Chairmi'ln, thr> Arguments they were 11sin~ to iustify it were indeed sound.

For example, in keeping with the policy which has been in effect,it tends to remove the isolat:!on of decision making. The poHcy is really geared to do away with one-1n.1n offices which are costly on the one hand, which dL> not nece,;sarUy, T clo not believe that anywhere in the province is there a stenographer in a one-man office, 3123

June 23, 1972 Tane 986 which tends to slow un the decision-making process,which tends to hreak down the service or certainlv provide a service far less than JM - 1 the level that we want to provide. So there are many reasons for doinr away w:!th the one-man office. Mr. r.hairman, I would like to assure mv honourable friend that in concurrinp. with the decision,it having been made I was not in the slightest wav nep.Jip,ent insofar as keeninp in mind and bearinp. in mind very seriously the points that he raised with regards to (

a) leadershin in the community, (

h) the need for this kind of leadershin with emphasis on the problem such as delinquency and other matters pertaining to child welfare, (

c) the need for such leadership in the community from a p:eneral point of v1ew. All of those thinps, Mr. Chairman, I can assure my honourable friend that I put forward to l'lY officials and in fact I can say that with TT!Y deputy minister we snent a considerable al!lount of time beating this thing back and forth in a kind of critical fashion, mavbe disapreeing with one another on times in a healthy sense and hop~fully with a view to coming up with a sound and practical solution.

Finally, !-fr, r.hainnan, my <lr>nuty minister an<" other officials convinced me that, and I am certainly proud to admit this, that there was nothing wronp: with experimenting, there was nothin~ wronr. with testinr. this kind of situation to determine the value of it, to determine the savings of it, to determine the improvement in terms of service and then again to look at the community or the Town of LaScie without the welfare officer heinp there. Pe are keeping a watchful eye on the situation, I can assure him of that. I know that he has the people of LaScie verv much at heart and their best interest at heart.

I assure him that we do too and I will in no way refuse to reverse that position 1 unless it can be nroven clearly that the service is better, that for economic reasons it is sound and that indeed 3124 . ' (.'

.Tune 23. 1972 Tape 986 ._n.f -· 2 in our opinion the town is not lackinr, without the presence of that welfare officer on a full time hasis. I think one other imnort:mt point I shonld make is th/lt in :novin.<> that officer from I.as<' ie to flaie Verte we /Ire not removinr the inage, as it were, or tl,e nhysical structure in terms of representation of r,y itepartmPnt. 'T'hc offjce which hr occ11>"ied will rcF1ain as a suh· office. The oi'ficer will he availllble to the neonle of that town the S/ll'lP numhf>r of hours, the s;imc mll'lher of <lavs ner week, ner month an<:' what !,.,ive vot1.

There is certainlv no clecre/J.se or hre;i.kdown in the service ;me' as I have inc1ic:ited it is all ?,earec1 to imnrovement of the servic-e. possible savinr of func1s,:as nart nf :in overall policy of the forrlC'r adrdnistr:Jtion ~-,hich I al" not nrenarP-d to 1nst write off and chanre for the sakP of jt, as I s11ic1, until T can come up with a more sound onl". One other noinL !fr. r:h;1irman, hefore I take . mv seat.

From an economic point of view the 0ne nan offic:e,whPrever a sitm1ticm like this exists,nresents T'!anv nrohlems,sor.ie of which I have ;iJ. rearlv ontltned from the point of vie1,• of secret.<trilll helo which this i>overnment cannot necessarily afford. The other thinR is housinr of the officers. An officer who is in a 0ne-man officP has as much ripht to <lecent housinr as his counterpart in a larrer centre. This ultimately results in thfs <lepartment or this zovern~ent providin~ housinP in some instances. Mr.

Ch11irman, at a cost of not less than SZ0,000 and sometimes $25.onn 1mc1er the policy, apain which is a policy of the former administration. We <lo not have the answer to the housing problem of onr officers jn terms of cuttin11: 1,ack or ch;m!'inr. it in terms of making it more econo~ical. Mr. Chairman, until we do,this is a verv real proble~ and this is an area which we have to take into account. So this is still another reason why our noliry of discontinninr- the one man office exists. I hope that hetween myself and my officials,who indeed 3125

June 23, 1972 Tape 986 JM - 3 are exp·ert and professional in this area, we will be able possibly to come up with a different policy. There is nothing, Mr. Chairman, that I would like better than to be able to say that we retained the one man offices even if they are in larger nwnbers than we have them now. T think the more representation we have across this province the better. I could not ap,ree with rnv honourable friend more when he savs that our policy of hrinr.ing rovernment to the peonle indeed should be reflected at the field level. I think, Mr.

Chairman, that we are livinr up to that hut I think we also have to do it with the economics of it and with the calibre of service very much in mind. So I assure him that the issue is hy no means closed. It is on an experimental hasis and I am sure that he and I will discuss it again,hopefully to the mutual satisfaction of both. MR. _ROT·!E(W.N.): HhE'n is the experiment? 'ffi. tJ1CKEY: • a - • • •- ._, _ T co not think any nefinite date has been pinned down, Mr. Chairman. but I would sugpest that a final and definite decision will be made before the cold weather sets in, before the winter sets in.

This as I say ap:ain is the right time of the vear to do it,while we have the bit of fine weather. On motion , r :1h--head 1152, carried. MR. !-/OO_J?_t:J~ R-~ 1154(01.): Mr. Ch;:iirman, I would like to ask the honourable minister if it is possible that he can sur,nly me with the number of eTl'ployees that are emnloyed with Northern Labrador Services. If he does not have the information available ~ayhe he could do it at a later date, get the number of people who are employed with that particular division. I am not asking for the whole of the department, Mr.

Chairman, I am just asking for the employees in NLSD division. I was very pleased to hear announced in the House yesterday that Rose King, a personal friend of mine and who worked on the Labrador Coast for a number of years, had been elevated 3126 . , ,_.

.lune 23, 1972 Tape 986 to the post of assistant tlpnutv "li nis ter. l tnu;t thnt hp will not he removed to a ny r.rN1 t de;•ree from his Tesnons1.hll l ty in t 11C' Dr.pnrtment of NoTt lwrn L:ihr:ic!or .'lffa lrs :is 1 feel he hos h een a "t'eAt nsse t over thE.' yean: to t 1:n t r,.<11:tlcul1n: dennrtment. I wou1,1 hnt e to see him ll'Oved in another 1lirecti.on so :is we 1-11.11 h11ve a relapse mnyhe attentinn in tha t d<'p11rtne n c.

This is all l h.we t.o 11av, If the hono11r:-ihlc n1ni$ t <'r could sup rl y 1;1e wit h th<' ,rnmes n f the neo n] c tha t are di t'cetl v C'm" toye,1 with the serv:I ce, [ would 111•nre c iA te 1 t . }fR_._J!ICK.f:.Y: ( wi ti jus t r P'1 1v to th11t first , Mr . rh:iinimn. nnd then my honour ah 1 t• Fricn,1 cnn f(•e I fre>!' to •mse :iny n11c>st Lons Ll•,"lt he !rn.s. 1 fll'l sure h<> tines not want Lhl' nan<>s hut 1,e w.>nts thr munhe r. ~1:R.:.~OQD!:."_R_D · Tht• names ;1nr! the numh<'r . ''R . HICl<f'Y: 1'hP 0/ll"C'S __ ., __ _ 3127 .TN - I,

June 23, 1972 MR, HICKEY: Tape no, 987 Page 1 and the nwnberr I do not have the names. of course, available right now. The number is fifty-eight. Mr. Chairman, I think for the benefit of the news media I should point out that I got the impression from reading "The Daily News" this morning or at least the impression was left that my department was about ready to pull out of Labrador,from the point of view of Northern Labrador Services, in terms of the depot, I would like to say that I am sure this was just a typographical error or a human error, I am sure there was nothing meant by it.

I feel it necessary that I correct that statement. Mr. Chairman, it is not the intention of my department to do that at this moment, In making my couonents last night,! think where possibly the error might have come about, I realize that when one is making comments like this it is difficult for reporters to get everything down.

What I said in fact was that this government feel in terms of Northern Labrador Services, where we provide or where we are an island maybe unto ourselves, a government unto ourselves, in certain regions of Labrador, where we provide the merchandize services, where we market, where we do almost everything that is done by government in the province, I feel that a good policy would be (I think i_t is fair to say that this is the direction we are heading) wherein when we develop Labrador the sections of Labrador which we are now in, which are fairly well developed from the point of view of depots, that we give serious consideration to passing this kind of business, this aspect of life in Labrador, the supplying of merchandize, the marketing, that we involve the residents, Mr.

Chairman; that we pass this over to the private sector, as it were, the free enterprise system wherein those people themselves and others who are interested and who are capable can take over where government leave off. Mr. Chairman, may I assure my honourable friend and all three people or in fact all the people of the great region of Labrador that it 3128 G'

June 23, 1972 Mr. Hickey, Tape no. 987 Page 2 is not the intention of government to pull out just like that, to make a change just like that. It is, however, the intention of government to attempt to upgrade and improve on the services that we are presently providing. If, that is,we were to find people who could provide the services that the Northern Labrador Services are providing now at those depots, If we could find people under the free enterprise system to do this, I think it would be much more practical, and alwavs being assured that the level of service would not only be maintained but in fact improved.

I think it would permit this government, Mr. Chairman, to move further afield in Labrador into some of the areas that Northern Labrador Services are not now operating in and possibly break new ground there by startin~ of in the same manner as we did in such places as Nain, Makkovik, David's Inlet, Hopedale and to set up a service there 1eventually with the view to doing the same thing, develop the area, develop our people in those areas and then to attract some private enterprise people in to take over. Mr.

Chairman, it is the general policy of this government,as clearly stated time and time again, to make Labrador a good place to live, to bring equality to the people of Labrador,and to this end this government will continue to work, I believe I mentioned last night. for my honourable friend 1 a question he raised with regard to the fish plants at Makkovik. I can tell him that it 1s the government's intention to continue on with that programme and hopefully this year to get involved in1 to put a fish plant at Makkovik, Our experience last year in Nain was very successful.

We certainly made great strides and great changes in that community. There were so many changes, Mr. Chairman, or such a change I should say or maybe I slrnuld say that it was so successful that the rising expectations of the people there resulted in all kinds of rumours and allegations during the winter with regard to fuel and food shortages. Admittedly, Sir, there were items of food that were short at Nain and at other depots. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that this will continue until we devise some different svstem 31~9

June 23, 1972 Tape no. 987 Page 3 Mr. Hickey. of supply. I do not think it is the fault of government. I do not think it is the fault of my officials, I think it is just one of those things,that it is geography, ice and a lot of other things. Maybe it is a lack of funds to provide the required services in those areas. But, Sir, it is a matter which we are very concerned about. I believe I indicated in my remarks yesterday that mv colleague,the Minister of Labrador Affairs, my colleague,the Minister of Supply and Services,and myself certainly will be getting together to discuss this most important issue.

It is our hope and it is our intention to do everything possible to ensure that shortages do not exist in the coming year. With regard to the fuel shortages, Mr. Chairman and possibly now is the right time to set the record straight, it was simply and strictly a piece of politics. It is not for me to say who initiated it or who was responsible because, Mr. Chairman, while there might have been shortages of certain food stock, certain commodities, while the supply of stove oil was getting low, there was in fact no shortage of fuel in Nain at any time during the past winter. Mr.

Chairman, it is unfortunate that when people have developed to such a degree and in such a short time as the people of Nain, in terms of rising expectations, in terms of amenities such as oil stoves and what not,as they have there now, that somebody would take this issue and kick it around as it were.I hope that we have heard the last of it. I hope that during the coming year those responsible and those people who are so interested in the people of Nain,and I certainly do not refer to my hon, friend from Labrador North 1 and of people who do not sit in this House, I hope 3130

June . 23, 1972 . Tape 988 , Pa r, e 1 -- apb rm. WOODWARD: Jvfr. ChaiTT1an, the situation that developec1 last winter and the controversv over the fuel oil shortar:e that the T"inister has mentioned in the Community of N:>in, 1 must sav riJ?ht now,at this particular til",e, that I wholeheartedly apree with him. JJopefully he is not point:lnp the finper c1t me when he th:fnks in terms of playinr: politics with the livlihoorl of the peonle in the Northern Communities of Labrador. This is far beyond nnlitfcs, M'r.

C:hairman, and far be it from me or from anyone else to i ndul!!'e in such tactics as to r,lay politics with the livJ ihood of tl1 ose people. Co1!1111entinp on the retail stores, I would like to ndd somethinp that has nossibly happened and a hit of history concernin !! the retail stores in La.brador North. It is a fact that thi,s was set up some year:ci aro l,y the Hudson's Bav rornpanv and the viahilitv of it could not supnort the private sector operatinp retail stores in Labrador.

C:onseouentlv. the C:ommission of r.overnment in turn took over the stores in 194 2- L, 3 anc1. they WE re run as .!:'overnment stores until such time as t!LSD 1,,ent in, in the early years of Confederation. I stiJl do not thinlr, Hr. rhairman, that we have the economic stah:1,li ty or the vinhili ty i.n the COl'llllUni ty l•>her.ebv you can support col"IDerci a l enterpr:1 .se.

I would like to see commercial enternrise and T would 1:1.ke to see those communities developed along the same lines as the normal community in the island portion of the province. /\s I said before, I think that thi.s has to be a verv )!radual move. You cannot riove the pover.mnent partic:lpat:l .on out of the communi.ties and consequently leave a vacumrn or leave it to the husiness sector, because of the fact that if we do thi.s then I think the cornmuni.ties will suffer, We have a very sad history, Sir, in Southern Labrador, where we have had mobile husiness-tyr,e ll'en cominp. down from the 3131

June 23, 1972, Tape 988. Page 2 -- apb Island of Newfoundland,establishing themselves during the summertime in the most viable communities, where there are the larpest numbers of fishermen and oullinp up stakes in the winter and leavinr the few people or the livers stranded, without any means of coMmercial support or suuplies during the winter months. This is not realtively new. It is goinr on now In Southern Labrador goinP, back to 1970, where we had a number of ctlll111\unities that dirl not have fuel oil, gasoline for their skidoos, and things of that nature for the winter.

It seems to he very primitive for this day ap.e, but it did exist. So, if we remove the governnent sector from the communities, without first ma],inp a detailed and comprehensive study of what is takinp_ place, we would he probably leaving ourselves open to criticism. I think in this respect, although I a11:ree with the minister th11.t there should he some means whereby we should encourap-e nrivate sectors to move into the comm.unities, we must monitor the situation and only take the government concern out at the time that we feel there is no need for government there.

If we were to do it in an overnight srrt of deal,! think that those communities would possibly revert back to some de~ree to the days before we had able people like Ross King and his Department of Labrador Services. I think, 1-lr. Chairman, that is should be watched very carefully, although there are a number of people now in the communities who have expressed to me their willingness to ret into private business in the communities. I trust that the }'inister's department will encourage them to do so.

Then again, as you are the biggest contributor and the communities _are relyir>g solely and wholly on the government depots, they should not be removed hastily 1 leaving the people again stranded, As for breakinp new ground and moving further south into Southern Labrador, I am sure that most of the honourable members, maybe not the honourable members but some of the honourable members, 3132 {.'

June 23. 1972, Tape ()88, Page 3 --- apb I am sure that the honourable memhcr for Fo~o is familiar with what has happened in the co111111unity of Rigolet through NLSD participation. I am very nle11sed to hear, and I do not know if this is premature or not, that there are stronp intentions of this particular department movinJ! as far south as Black Tickle. In the event that this does happen, I am sure, Sir, that this will be welcome news to the people of Black Tickle and no rloubt we will ret representation from other communities in Southern Labrador requesting this type of service.

Whether they will be eJ igible for it or not, I thfnk depends on the discretion 11nd thought that the honourahle minister and his officials put into it when in consultation with our great contrihutor to this programme. /Is I saj ,1 yesterd:w. ninety percent is contributed for the indian people by the ~erleral r.overnr,,ent and for the Eskir,,o sector there is two-thirds or sixtv-six nercent. In this case, Sir, as we ro throurh the estimates, further down I will be askinp: ciuestions to explain the different tvnes of functions and where the houses are r-:oinp to be built, but they will be very hrief, Hr. Chairman.

HR. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, I would be remiss in my duty if I did not make some comment. Now that the he11t of the day is coolinr a little, I do not nropose to nrolon!? this committee dehate by goinr. into the history of Norther Labrador Affairs. I can entertain this committee for ouite sor,,e time. heeause. Hr. Chairman, I represented that district for sixteen years in this honourable Fouse. l"ror, mv experience I J,now what has happened there.

I have seen it happen. 1 am very pleased to hear from the honourable minister of the appointment of Ross Kinr to the position of Assistant Deputy Hinister of his department. As a matter of fact, 1 introduced ~ass King to Labrador. He well rPcalls the trip he macle with MP or with us when he went to his first stntion at Hopedale. I am sure that he 3133

June 23. 1972, Tape 988, Pgae 4 -- aph was not long there hefore he discovered that all the thinps I told hit11 ahout the !)eop]e and the Eskimos of L/\brador were exap:perated somevhet. hut nevertheless, a lot of . ,_.

June 23, 1972 Tape 989 (afternoon) }fR, WINSOR: it was good information. Now, Sir, let me just give you a short,. brief background why the government is in the trading business in Labrador. I will PK - 1 deal frist with the Indians·. In Newfoundland there are at present, that is in Newfoundland and Labrador, t•po groups or tribes of Indians, one kno~m as the Montaignais, numbering I suppose, I do not know what the exact number is now, I would guess between 400 or 500. The other tribe or group are the ones at Davis Inlet known as the Naskaupis, numbering about 250, I would imagine.

When I first met the Indians in my first visit to Labrador, Sir, I saw some pretty heart-Sickening conditions. I saw when all the Indians in Northwest ~i.ver and Davis Inlet were living in canvass tents. I had the experience of going into not one tent but several tents and witnessing 1 not at the precise moment, but witnessing the birth of a new born baby on green boughs.

Sir, when I was asked hy the previous Premier of th is Province, if I would be interested in running as a candidate in Northern Labrador, I without any hesitation said I would be glad to do so, because I felt there I could make some small contribution in bringing about a better way of life to those very unfortunate citizens, In 1936 and 1939, I knew of no Indian that could read or write. However, better days dawned, I should go back and say that the majority of Indians in Newfoundland and Labrador are Roman Catholics, except maybe for one or two who migrated from Chima.

But the vast majority, I would say now perhaps one hundred percent are of the Roman Catholic Faith. The spirtual part of the Indians came under the Diocese of Newfoundland and Labrador, I was very happy on the opening of the Churchill Falls to greet my friend who was then Father O'Brien but who has since been elevated as Monsignor O'Brien. Monsignor O'Brien and I travelled that coast a good many 3135

June 23, 1972 Tape 989 (afternoon) PK - 2 MR. WINSOR: times together and we had an opportunity to reminisce and compare what the conditions were like then and what they are like now. Sir, but better times dawned for the Indians of Labrador during Confederation. as a matter of fact the exact year,1949,when the spiritual part of the affairs for the Indians were taken over by the Oblate Fathers. Now I think every station in Newfoundland and Labrador is manned by an Oblate Missionary. They are certainly making a good contribution and doing a good job.

So, Sir, there it began and in 1959, September 1, the first school was started at Northwest River. In the next February, I think, I am not sure of the date, however that is immaterial, I witnessed the opening of the first Indian school in Northwest River. Consequently, today many of the Indians, both at Northwest River and Davis Inlet,can now speak English and,as a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, in some cases they are further advanced than we are. It is not uncommon to find an Eskimo and an Indian in Labrador that can speak three languages, Eskimo, Indian and English.

I might say, in many cases their English is, of a much higher calibre than a lot of us Newfoundlanders and myself included. So here we have the Indians from what they were and where they have come since then. The first Indian school was started at Northwest River in 1959, consequently, homes were built. Sir, from those canvas tents there came a home, a wooden house constructed for every Indian family both at Davis Inlet and Northwest River. Now today there is not one Indian living in a canvas tent only by choice.

Now they go sometimes up in the woods and naturally they like to spend a few nights in the canvas tent. But, Sir, the progress which has been made towards improving the living conditions of the Indians is just fantastic. It can 3136

June 23, 1972 Tape 989 (afternoon) MR, WINSOR: only be appreciated, it can only be appreciated bv people who have had the experience with Northern Labrador down through the years. PK - 3 The Eskimos, Sir, I do not want to take up too much time, Mr, Chairman, but the tskimos they go back as far as 1752, when the first missionaries came or sailed from London in the little vessel "Hope" on May 17. They sailed across the Atlantic, I think it was the Missionary Hierarch who was in charge of the Moravian Mission in England at that time.

He arranged for the expedition of the "Hope" with the purpose in mind to establishing the Moravian Mission in Labrador among the Eskimos. But, Sir, an unfortunate incident happened and that voyage did not prove as successful as it was first thought it would.

But to make a long story short, they did arrive at Hopedale,after a considerable time and a stormy passage across the Atlantic, and the four missionaries went on shore in Hopedale and this is where the name of Hopedale originated, it was taken from the ship " Hope" and called the Bay of Hopedale, But, Sir, those missionaries 1 as one can imagine,during their daily chores of trying to discharge the ship and building winter quarters were pretty frustrated, but nevertheless they had something within them that gave them the will to carry on.

So the final day came and the"Hope" 8-,iled back to England,intending to go hack to England but a short distance north of Hopedale it was met by a group of Eskimos in their canoes and the captain of the ship was persuaded to come ashore and barter or trade furs with the Eskimos. This he did, taking four of his sailors with him, in the only schooner they 3137

June 23, 1972 Tape No. 990 NC - 1 had or possessed.But after several hours the mate became very worried and that lingered on into days and nights.However, winter or fall was closing in, the captain and the four other accompanying sailors did not return and the mate of the "Hope" decided to weigh anchor and go back to Hopedale, which he did.

On arriving Hopedale he said to the four intended missionaries, ''we do not have sufficient number of men to man the ship back to England and therefore I would ask you to consider and join the ship and deliver it back to its original port in London, So this they did and that was the first phase of establishing the Moravian Mission in Labrador. In 1758, I am not too clear on this but I think the Moravian missionary/under the guidance of Von Zinzendurf I think it was, was determined to establish the Moravian Mission in Labrador.

So he sent one cf his missionaries or his carpenterfin the name of Von Zinzendurf 1 to Greenland to get to know the Eskimo and speak their language. This he did and after several years after Von Zinzendurf came to Labrador and st,rted the first Moravian Mission at Okak Bay, then it extended on to Nain, Hopedale, not in this order but up north as far, in my day at least,to Rama which is approximately one hundrerl and seventy miles south of Chidley.

The Mor~vian missionaries then had the responsibility of,not only the spiritual responsibility of the Eskimo but they had the responsibility of supplies and the Moravian Mission bought their supplies across the Atlantic in their own ship, known as the "Harmony". There were two such vesseil.e, ''Harmony I" and "Harmony II~' It became so financially involved that the Moravian Missions could not carry on and they relinquished to the Hudson Bay Company.

I am sure the older people of Northern Labrador can tell you many wild stories of just how they were treated by a private enterprise,in the name of the Hudson 3138 , . . , ... ,

June 23, 1972 'llape No. 990 NC - 2 Ray Company, but that is many many years ago. But, Sir, in 1942 the Hudson Bay Company discovered that it could not financially carry on bringing in supplies and taking hack the produce of Labrador, So without much warnin~ they came to the Connnission of Government and said; "we arP pulling out of Labrador." So whowere going to take care of the Indians and Eskimoes in that territory?

The Commission of Government undertook to try to attract private enterprise to go in there and there were several offers, as I recall, but the offers were so financially rewarding to the private enterprise that the government solved jt in their ,.,isdom, not to grant any franchise and the conditons were that any deficit that they encountered would be paid by the government. So the government . , ai~ain T say in their wisdom, started the trading operations in Nnrt.hern Labrador. Sir, it has been a terrific operation.

They have done wonders, of course with the help of the Federal Government, I do not think this province could financially carry on the responsihility of providing provisions, stores, and what not for the many people in Northern Labrador without the help of the Federal Government,which they did. At first it amounted to $200,000 1 That was in 1959.

Then it increased until now I think it is about $1 million a year, But, Sir, I would have one word of caution to the hon. minister, I would not like for him to give too much thought or at least not serious thought to taking or changing the role of the Department of Northern Labrador Affairs in Nolrthern Labrador. I think it would he an in.1ustice to the people up there if we are to once again go back to priva~e enterprise because, Sir, the people of Northern Labrador are able to purchase much less. Their prices are much lower than you could find in communities, even just outside of St.

John's, For that reason, Sir, I would be very much afrai4 that if we got into the private sector or the private enterprise to operate Northern Labrador,someone would be the loser and I am afraid that the good of the Eskimo and the Indian tribe or race would probably be the losers, · 3139

June 23, 1972 Tape No. 990 1 NC - 3 However, that is not to say that we should not interest small business people to get interested in bringing in supplies that perhaps the Labrador cannot always find it possible to keep in stock. The minister spoke of the shortage of supplies. That has always been the case and I am afraid it always will be. The natural geographical location of the area and the ice, you Know they are ice bound and snowed in for practically eight or nine months of the year and it is just utterly impossible to keep all of the desired products, fresh vegetables, etc. on hand in Northern Labrador.

However the Department of Northern Labrador Affairs, under the direction of Mr. Ross King, endeavoured at all times. I do not really recall when there was an emergency, when people went hungry because of shortage of any food in Labrador. Sir, I saw the Indians and Eskimoes in Labrador pretty hungry. I saw on one occasion,when we were going up to Davis Inlet, in 1938, the store was operated by the Hudson Bay Company, when the Indians were watching for days, This was a spring when we had an'awful lot of heavy Artie ice to deal with and we were late in getting in. AN HON.

MEMBER: \vhen was that? tfR, WINSOR: In 1938. However when we did approach the approaches to Davis Inlet, three canoes came out and we had to stop the ship and unhatten the hatches and throw a few half bags of bread, bread came in the half bags then, down in the canoes, and they went ashore.

Sir, their resistance was so low, when we got to the anchorage and started to discharge, the first thing we had to do was discharge molasses. bread and lard, that is a sort of a greece.' But within four or five hours, where their resistance was so low, at that particular time, we got around to discharging again, the whole tribe of Indians landed along-side of the vessel, all loaded drunk. Loaded drunk because the strong molasses had made them so,because their resistance was so low in the beginning. AN HON. MEMBER: Strong molasses? 3140 fl'

.June 23, 1972 1:apt> No. ')')0 NC - 4 ~]HNSOR: StronR molasses, it was like the old navy ruffl. f.o , '-Ir. SpeahH, L trust for thP benefit of the members of the House who .,re not famillnr with the hrckground llS I f: why tho 1:overnment is in the pns1Ll,'1l, or in the! positJon it Is, in supplyi nr suppli es to Northt,rn 1,abr:idor , I tru"t t'hnl wlth this llt tle background le w llJ hcl p members , e!lpP<"nJ lly the new ""embers, to understnnd a 1 i ttlc hot tcr thal it wns no t 11 ,·ho ice in the bep,1nninp , forthe r,ovc>rnment.

The chol c<' Lo ~o inlc- L,tl>rncl or vos forced unpon the Commis-; lon of Covcrnl"enc ,ind r thld . It wn,. ,, Godse nd that it happened thnt way . ••~. 'fURPflY: 'Ir. Chnlman, Just hc,fore it pa~scs, I thouP.h' chat f wnuld say 1ust one or two shnrt wrr<ls, \/ith referenl:<' to Norrhrrn 1.nb r ;,dur l-i>rvlrt' ind my sho rt exper1ence with it, frol'\ wh,tt T lrn.ve hr,1i:d every th !nr. 1,ns '1een p,ood.

There are com1>lai11ts fror1 some s o 11rce s Lhnc th•·• · do not cnrry the stocks that you fln<l (ll1 l.'nter StrCf'l hut T rhink I he11e ore natural comp lai nts that you r~taive from ~nm• p~>p l c ~ul 1 om sure that the '1eMhl!r Cor Lnt,rodor ;,o rlh and the fomer mc~hl!r nre really more nware of what is hci 11" done than w11at T ;nn. nut l :1m :ilwnyi; nt n loss to understand 3141

June 21. 1972 Tane 991 J!-1 - 1 just where the position of the Minister of Labrador A-"fairs comes into all this. In the 1forth as far I understand.there was Federal involvement.

There is Northern Labrador Services, there is the memher for Labrador North. there is the Minister for Labrador Affairs an<! if ever you are talkinr 11hout renresentation or being over represented I think Labrador 'forth has to be the place in a] 1 of Cana/la They still have R ~reat number of nrohlems,but my feelinr is that there hRs to be !l cominr torether somPwhere aloni, the line with the department we are discussinr, now, with the Denartment of Labrador Affairs anrl with the representAtives from the Federal and Provincial Government, as representives 1 otherwise no one Jr.nows where the other is goinr and this has been my exnerience and I sav it has only been a very short period with them.

We certainlv need,and I believe Hr. King will agree with mF> on this, sol!'e centralized nart,and I would sav Happy Valley-Goose !lay where all this communications woul<l take place, I am sure there is no l!mre conversant person than the Member for Labrador 1'forth ,because everybody and his brother is on the phone. It is nothinr. to receive fifteen or twenty phone calls. The member receives them and I am sure the Minister of Welfnre receives them and then the last one is the Lnbrador Affairs , I r,uess - AN HON. MEHBER: (Inaudible). MR.

MURPHY: I <lo not know how concerned you are but I p,uess you are ·-- -- " - as concerned as we all are, Mr. r.hairman. but we all receive these calls . That is the point I am getting.There seems to he a ~reat need of a coming together of different grouos to consolidate somethinp. there. MR.

WTNSOR: Wou]d the honourable minister indicate that those calls he is referring to came more from Northern Labrador or Southern Labrad.or1 In my experience I got very few calls from Northern Labrador but scores and scores and scores from Southern Labrador. ~m.. ~f[JRPHY: Well, I think that Southern Labrador in recent days would .3142

June 23. 1972 Tape 991 JM - 2 outweigh the others hut iust thP same we are gettinr ca] ls and it is not the number of cal ls T am talkinr abo11t but each of these departments are retting calls fron the same peonle. This is the point Tam trvinr to make. t am very hanpy that JHack Tickle has now become R nart I understand of Northern Labrador Services. So T do not kl"ow if thev are still goinr to retain the name of Northern Lahrador Services or if we are RoinJ! to call it Coastal Lnbrador Services. I ci1ink it is something, Mr.

Chairman, tlrnt we could all havP a look at and work out to the best advantare of the coastal residents. ~IR. HICKEY: Mr. ChRir'T!lan. there js somP infor!'lation I Panted to J!ive on some items raised by some honourahle members. First of all my hnnour,ihle friend from Labrador Mort~ exnressed aeain concern over the tal~g about nulU.np out of' that areR. '-!av I iust al!ain emnhasize th;,t this is not the case. ~:. _r~.<~n_WA~: Mr. Chc1irman. T did not say thev were nulJinr; out of ):orthern Labrador Services. I mere] y Meant pullin,i>: the ret,ii 1 business out and havin~ it replacC'c. hy the nri vate sectn r.

T ~icl not refer to !ilLSU services per se nullinJ! out of the area hut l referrec1 to tlw retail stores beinf' replaced,which I feel thev sh0u]d he,hut it is eoing to take a neriod of time, but not the total services. Sir. HR. HICKEY: Right. This is the impression T ~ot from hi~ that he was referrinr to the r:et;iil services ancl again T s:w it is not the intention of f!,OVernment to do this hut tliat this is one nossihi.1 itv into the future. The other thinr., Mr. Chaiman, in regard tn housin~ in that area.

There are soMe new houses to he built. '!'here are eirht to be huil t at ~ain, three, at David · s Inlet, five ,1t t]oneciale, four At nostville. five at )'-1;?.kkovU· ::mci four at Rip.:oJ Pt for a total of twenty_: nine. There are also some house renairs to he made ,it ~1ort)1 T)e.s t River. '!'he only other thin,., Mr. Chairman, that T want to sav hPfore the vote passes is that aJ!ain concern was expressed with reparcls to 3143·

June 23. 1972 Tape 991 JM - 3 Mr. King and his nc-w aopointment. '-!av I assure the committee that Mr. Kin~ will continue to be responsible for Northern Labrador Services and the entire ooeration in his new ;ippointment. 1'!R. lrf.NSOR: Mr. Chairman, maybe the honourable minister wouln like to answer this one. Is it now the intention to replace Mr. King with ;i 2'entleman with sil'til;ir knowl<'d?e as Mr. ¥ing has?

I think it is verv import;mt that his rep] 11ceMent hPvP a knowledp.e of the people of Labrador and I am sure he wil J hear that in mi.nil when the appointment is considered. ~m. 1-l.T<cKEV: Mr. r.bairman, I can assure l'lV honournble friencl that this is r1 Matter which is being p.iven carPful consideration at the moment. There are n1anv people who in fact we could put there who have some knowledre,hut we will wait. In fact Mr. Kinf.' will carry on until we choose this man 1mc' we hone and we know we wi 1.1 choose very wisely with th:1.s thought in mind. MR. 1-!(l()J)l•:ARD • Mr.

C.hai.rm;m, if I may be nermitted, 1ust a few brief comments concernin~ the comments made by the honourable 1-!inister of Labrador Affairs. T think it is onlv 1ustifiable at this time for me to say this,that this sector of the NLSD does not necessarily apply to the whole of Labrador, it is the northern communities, I am sure the honourable Minister should be familiar with the ap:reement tlrnt WP have with the 'F'edPral Department of Inc1ian Affairs regarding this particular thinl! 1 if he is concerned about the job that he is doin~ as Minister of Lahrarlor Affairs as such.

Again I may say that I think when the honourable minister does pay a visit to the coastal communities of Labrador anc1 see the involvement of NLSD and the <lependency of the natives on this particular department that he will become more aware of the programme that is taking place and he will himself personally 1 if he wants to do the iob as Minister of Labrador Affairs,trv to fit the programme of his department in with that particular department. I am sure there is a j?:reat need for it, Sir. 3144

June 23, 1972 Tape 991 .JM .• 4 You have a representative in Hanpy V;,lley thr1t I personally took to the Labrador Coast 1 who exnlained some of the nrovincinJ nrograr:unes, not as many as I would have liked to ht1ve had exn lained to theTT', I am sure with you and the Minister of Social Services anrl Rehahil:ition and indeed the Minister of Supply and Services;this whole division, Sir, is entwined into three ilPpartments anrl vou could have a great contribution to it. Hopefully, Sir. you will see fit to do your tour of Northern Labrador anrl become familiar with that nart of the nrovince. ~-- _l:!_I_~~O..B_: Mr.

Chairman . on the trading of supnlies and produce. the marketing of thP nroduce produc-.ed in Lah rador, name 1 v fish. fresh fish, salt fish, artic char and what have you, hr1s the minister considered having the marketinp done bv either the Salt fish Marketinl! Board or through the nenart'llPnt 0f Fisheries? lv!R. HICKEY: 'fr, Chairman, the marketinr of the ft.sh, the 1:1rtic char, the cod fish and everv other species of fish caught in Lahr.ador is presently being marketerl by the Sa] t Fish Corporation. Th:ts was triecl by the former administration.

I believe it is a good policy. ~he results appear very Rood and it is the intention of my department to continue. For quite a number of years, Mr. ChaiI'T'\an. there were losses in this area and I think we are. beginninf' to r,et our hea.d ;,.hove water now. The prices that we are recc ~.vin? for this product are better. There is increase in markets. Pe ilre marketing in the U.S .. Eurone and various other markets.

I think !):enerallv i.t is fair for me to say that the Salt Fish Corporatjon has ha.d some kind of hreak-throuph anrl until such time as apain we can fi.nd some reason to improve and deal with someone else,I think we shall continue this policy. NR, HOODl?ARD: Mr. Chairman, just hriefly iust one ouestion on the - ;nst to set the record straip.ht on trading supplies anrl produce. Is this total of this cost recoverable from the peonle in the communities, from the retail stores? Is the total cost of this recoverable in the 3:145

June 23, 1972 Tape 991 JM - 5 retail from the stores? }IR. llICKEV: What j tern are you on? "'1R. H00DWARD: We are on tradini:- supplies and produce. Tt is .llSli (03) (02). I understand that 3116 , . . ,

June 23, 1972, Tape 992, Page 1 -- apb this is recoverable by your resale from the stores. ~ '.·. HI~}.<~Y: I am surprisec1, it is. (1n motion, 1154-03-02, carried. ~. WOODWARD: --- --·- - - Hr. Chairma11. just briefly, seeing that this has risen from $26,000 to $85,00(1, Mavbe the minister could briefly explain the increase and his programme. }'R • HICKEY: Pr. Chairman, that is to pay for the maintenance ... MR • WOODWARD: Just briefly. it is not putting into our educational system, and it is not under the ... }fR. HICKEY: It is for the maintenance and cost of the ne1~ dormitory ;it Northwest River. ~'R.

H.N.ROWF.: The whole amount? .. -·-- · -- - ~qi. HICKEY: Yes • . ·- - - - .. - On ~otion, 1154-04. carried. 'rp_. WOODWARD: ..--- --··-- · 1'fr. Chairman. perhaps the minister would he l<ind enou?.h to give me A breakdown of h1.s nrogramme for each community this year and the amount of money that is going to be spent in each community. Mlt. HICKEY· Mlt._ ~-/OOD_}-!_ARJ): }fR. HICKEY· !-'!r. Chairman - The honourable minister can pive it to me later. I have already r,iven it. The honourable gentleman probably was not listening or was not aware, He was probably thinkin?. of somethinr, else at the time.

May I reneat it? We are building twenty-nine houses as follows: eip:ht at Nain, three at Davis Inlet, five at Hopedale, four at Postville, five at ~lakkovik and four at Rigolet, for a total of twenty-nine. We are doing some house repairs at NorthwPst !liver. On motion, 1154-06-05, carried. MR • WOODWARD: ¥r. Chairman, will the honourable minister tell the cmmnittee if this dormitory is roinr: to be ready for oocup1mcy fn the fall? t-<P. HICKEY· It is due to be reac1y to operate on August 15, }Ir. Chairman. The total capacity is seventy-two -. 3147

June 23, 1972, Tape 992, Page 2 -- apb On motion, 1154-06-06, carried. On motion, total subhead 1154, carried. MR. HICKEY: l'fP... CROSBIE: 1156-05-08, ~r. Chairman, $100,000 short here by error. I would like to move, Mr. Chairman, that we increase 1156-nS-08, homesfor the aged,by $100,000 which would make it $115,700 and that the total for the department, when we get to it, ' increased by $100,000. AN HON. r-t'E't--IBER: ... -- - -·--· (Inaudible) ~fl'. CROSBIE, The Sl00,000 saved in F.ducation has gone over to Welfare. HR. VARSHALL'1 To put on a wing for the Opposition. On motion 1156-05-08 as amended, carried.

On motion, total subhead 1156 as amended, carried. On motion, total subhead 1157, carried. On motion, total Headinp. XI, Social Services and Rehabilitation as amended, carried. Headinp: XV, Economic Development: 'I--~. CHAIRMAN: ·- ____ .. _ . Shall 1501-01 carry? MR. CROSBIE: I have a few preliminary remarks, Mr. Chairman. ~irst I wou]d like to make a few general remarks about the Department of Economic Development and what has been done there in the last four or five months. what we are doinJ? there and what we hope to do there.

There are quite a few things done by the Denartment of Economic Development which would be better discussed on the individual items, because there is so much to cover. If we debate it at all as a general item it p.ets too discursive. But I do not know what the Opposition wants to do on that. I might mention, Mr. Chairman, since it is a popular topic with the Opposition, that under the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, part of the money contained in that vote this year is money that was spent in acquirinp. the shares of Burgeo Fish Industries Limited.

I would sup.gest to the Opposition that the acouisition of that 3148 .... • . , .

June 23, 1972, Tape 992, Pape 3 -- apb comnanv wouln be better cliscussed under the first item in the Fisheries Estimates, because the matter was nerotiated ann completed by the Department of Fisheries. bv the Ininister of that department at the time. I am not familiar with all the details, I just know about it ~enerally. It would he better if thatwere discussed under the first item in Fisheries. However. if the npposition insists, it can be discussed under this item in Fconomic r,evelopment.

In that event, J wnu]d sup;p;est that we leave that item until we have the Premier in the !:louse so that he can p-ive the details of the :irranpements that were made. Having said that. 1 al'\ prepared to debate the acuufsition of the plant, because I think ft was auite a satfsfactory arrangement, all that could be done in thP circumstances. Rut for the full detail ... (Inaudible) t<P.. CROSBJF. · Certainly, we will have an enc,uiry into that and one into the linerboard mill. P1rnt about one into the oil refjnerv too? There are alJ kincls of then , the steel plant, Marystown !"hipyard and T'PA.

I wou]d 1 ike to see enCTuiries fnto about twenty--fi.ve different thin!!S, hut we _4ust do not hnve enour;h imp;,rti;,l nc-onle :In the province tc:, do thel'l. f,N HON. Jlf'lEEJl ·_ What about the rubher plant? }IP .. CROSBIE: The rubber r,L~nt at Holyrood. We could have one hundred royal commissions roinp. here. A tremendous source of employmen~ if we could find the people to do it. AN HON . ~•l'EJ'BER : -·- ---·- ------- - - - It could cure the unemployment situation. ''R. CROSBIE'. - ·-- ---- ·- ·- · - - That is for sure. Now, }fr, Chairman, the first thinf'.

I would like to mention is the new developnent corporation - Federal- Provinci1ll Corporatfon which will be - the agreement should he si1med next wee!<, fi.nally. f,N HON. }IW,-1RFR: -------- -· How many more ••• '-'n. CROSBIE: Well, I could say for anothe .r fifty weeh; and I would he even with the last rovernment. Bec.aui-e they started ft last January. 1971, and left office (was it a year later?) most reluctantly. It still 3149

June 23. 1972, Tape 992, Page 4 -- apb was not in operation but it will be signed next week. It is only a question now of coordinating with the Federal Government and getting a joint release ready. We have been kept in the House so much, afternoons. evenings. that it takes a while to get some of these thinps done. I think most of the members know the purnose of the corporation is goinr- to be to lend money to small, not necessarily small but small 3150

June 23, 1972 Tape no. 993 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Crosbie. in the sense that they will be business enterprises having assets of less than $1 million in this province. I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that the development corporation is not necessarily restricted to assisting manufacturing businesses. The agreement states:(It will be up to the directors, of course, to decide it) "Assistance can be given to the financing of business enterprises by the corporations, shall be restricted to enterprises operating in Newfoundland and Labrador." There is no restriction in the agreement on the kind of enterprise.

It does not have to be manufacturers or a processor. It could be any business enterprise depending on what the directors decide, In addition, because members know that there will be a revolving loan fund of $20 million from the Government of Canada to make loans with and an amount of $2 million provided by the province to invest in equity, that appears desirable by the directors.

Now in addition to the question of assisting business proposals financially, the second main purpose of this corporation or its staff will be to set up a management and advisory service to advise people who have been assisted, to advise them on proper management practices and .how they can improve the management or what they may be doing wrong or where they can make improvements. In other words, a management advisory service which I think, Mr. Chairman, is a very important matter,particularly if the main assistance in this province is going to be given the smaller enterprises.

The overall management of this corporation is going to be in the hands of a board of directors of which the province will appoint initially three and the Government of Canada will appoint two. In the decisions made by the corporation, at least one federal director nust concur or one provincial. It might be a vote of four to one but as long as one provincial or one federal is with the majority, a decision will be made. 3151

June 23, 1972 Mr, Crosbie. Tape no. 993 Page 2 Of course, this board is going to appoint the permanent staff and a very important appointment is going to be the chief executive officer of this corporation, He is going to be the important individual and the officials he gathers around him. As far as the agreement is concerned, there is concern. This should be executed next week, It has been approved by the Newfoundland Government, There can b~ up to ten directors. I think there will be five initially. Its main purpose on the loan fund is to make loans to business enterprises in Newfoundland and Labrador.

These loans are going to have a maximum period of ten years. Canada is going to lend us the money for ten years. We can only lend it out for ten years. The development corporation can only lend it out for ten yea·rs. "Such funds shall be used by the corporation to make loans to the establishment, expansion or modernization of business enterprises in Newfoundland and Labrador provided that the corporation considers that the business enterprise to which any loan is made is viable and could not obtain adequate financing from other sources," That is important, Mr, Chairman, to be noted.

The development corporation is not just going to be lending out money to any one who wants money. They have to be satisfied that the business enterprise for which they want the loan is viable firstly; and secondly, that they could not obtain the money or adequate financing from other sources. In other words,if the particular applicant could get money from one of the commercial banks or some other source they should do that. If they cannot,then the corporation will step in if they feel the proposal is viable, Now it is certainly not the intention, Mr, Chairman, to have this development corporation act as a bank.

They are to take more risks than a bank would. They would be willing to take more risks, They must be satisfied that it is viable, that it has some decent prospect. That should be obvious, of course. There is a clause in the agreement also 3152 . '

June 23, ,1972 Tape no. 99.3 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie. and that is that no loan by the corporation is to exceed the amount of 300 per cent of the, equity capital provided for the project and its directly related operations. The amount of the loans involved will have to be related to the amount of equity 3153

JUne 23, 1972 Tape 994 PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: the applicanthas put into the business or that the corporation puts ·· n through the provincial equity fund. Legal and other operating costg are to he shared between the province and the federal government. The initial duration of the corporation is for a period of five years but that can be extended by the agreement of the two governments. So . Mr. Chairman. the position will be hopefully the agreement will be signed next week, the directors will - we cannot disclose these matters in the Rouse,there might be demands of breach of privilege and all of that.

The direct.nrs will hopefully be appointed next week, the agreement signed, then they have to get the staff and get into operation, Certainly they should be in operation by the end of July. So , Mr. Chairman, once the Devel;pment Corporation is set up, it is to provide assistance for enterprises that have a value, assets less than $1 million. If there are any enterprises or suggestions or projects suggested that do not fall within that scope then the government would deal with them direct.

The next question is; The Development Corporation being set up and hopefully metting the need for assistance to small and medium size business in Newfoundland, which means that the government will not have to deal with the requests for guarantees of loans and the rest of it for those purposes. What is the Department of Economic Development to do?

That is obviously of first importance, It is proposed and the government have agreed that the functions of the Department of Economic Development, once the Development Corporation is set up,will include the following: seeking out prospects. in other words, it wi~l be the job of the Department of Economic Development to look over this province and to ascertain what are the kinds of things that could be done here, what are the opportunities and,having identified those,then to look 3154

June 23, 1972 Tape 994 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: for people, private businessmen and so on to try and start those particular activities, hopefully from within the province, if not,from without the province. Some of this work in the last year or so, Mr. Chairman, was done by T. E. McLoughlan Development Associates,Limited, an outside firm, an upper Canadian firm, but that arrangement with T. E.:McLoughlan has now been tenninated.

So the~ are no longer doing that work and the department's own staff will now have responsibility for this work of seeking out prospects or promotion of mail outs, advertising, general promotion of Newfoundland as a place to locate and so on and instigating studies to identify possible new industries.

The second main functi.on of the department would he selling a prospect once there is a prospect :l.n view, For that purpose a project officer will be assigned, There will be a liaison with the prospect to advise him of the programmes available for assitance, what is available through DREE, what is available throught the federal government, what is available from the province, to assist him in making proper applications for this assistance and to get it as quickly as he can. Now some of this work, Mr.

Chairman, was formerly done or was done last year by Camm Ure Associates 1 Limited,under a contract entered into by the former administration. That contract has now been terminated or has not been renewed and it will be the department's function to undertake that work. In addition the Department of Economic Development has to develop a small but a professional staff with a high degree of analytical experience. Mr. McLean is a great possibility there. Yes, I am thinking of him for a Director-General of Prospects.

What these people would do or what they should do is help to develop the general strategy for the development of this province, to give an input in the overall planning process and to tackle ad hoc projects as they come to the fore from time to time and, in addition, to assist in monotoring the 3155

June 23, 1972 Tape ~fo. 995 NC - 1 activities of companies in which the government have a substantial financial stake, There are quite a few of these as a result of the so-called economic development policy of the last twenty-three years. There are a number of companies which have received assistance from the p,overnment which need much closer scrutiny by the nepartment of Economic Development so they can see what they are doing and whether the p:overnment' s investment is protected or not.

These are some of the things then that the Department must do once the development corporation is set up, Now, Mr, Chairman, there is a committee on functions, established by the Premier and the government and it may be decided that these functions would better be performed .•• AN HON. ~-!EMBER: It is not the hon. Premier. MR. CROSBIE: No this is appointed by the Premier and the government. AN HON. '.-!EMBER: The hon. minister is functioning. MR.

CROSBIE: I do not know how I am functioning, I do not feel too well at the end of the present week, having to stay in this House and listen to the junk I listen to all week. I cannot even get enthusiastic about this subject. I am just p,oing to talk now until the clock reaches six o'clock Believe me, I can do it, I could talk until the clock reached ten o'clock AN HON. MEMBER: We believe you, MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, I am not being challenged.

These functions may or may not continue to be in the Department of Economic Development and that department may or may not continue to be, it will depend upon the reorganization of functions that results from these planning studies. Now we know that that is not a word, hon. gentlemen opposite like, "planning" but as a result of those studies, decisions will be made as to where these functions will be done or what Economic Development will do in addition. Now in addition the Department deals with transportation, parks, tourism, the Power Commission and the Fisheries Colleges. These 3156 ,--.,,

June 23, 1972 Tape No, 995 NC - 2 activities may or may not remain in the Department of Economic Development. As a matter of fact, I may or may not remain in the Department of Economic Development and in fact I am not going to remain in the Department of Economic Development and there will be a change in the Department of Economic Development in due course. AN HON, MEMBER: Are you coming over here? MR, CROSBIE: No, I will remain in the government but will be concentrating my activities in the Department of Finance, Treasury Board and other assignments to which the Premier may direct me.

So do not be surprised if you wake up some morning and hear the shockin~ news that the Minister of Economic Development has been removed from his post and a new honourable gentleman appointed. I can assure you that my likely successor will carry on from where I leave 1 in a most expeditious manner. A.~ HON. MEMBER: You have lots of competition. MR. CROSBIE: Only on the other side.

Mr, Chairman, we are all groggy and we all know we are me~ting tonight and tomorrow and all day Monday, so I will not be too much longer, just another twenty-two minutes, I think I have covered what the 8epartment should do in the future in this line. I could say, Mr, Chairman, we