Time: 10:00 a.m. LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA Friday, 7 March, 1980 OPE NING PRAY ER by Mr. Speaker. INTRODU CTION OF GU ESTS MR. SPE AKER, Hon. Harry E. Grah am (Birtle- Russell): Before we proceed, I should like to draw the honourable membe rs' attention to the gallery , where we have 28 students of Grade 11 standing, from Daniel Maci ntyre School, under the direction of Mr. Rohf. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Membe r for Wellington. We also have students from Grade 2 to 7, from Gunton Commu nity Christian Acade my, under Mr. Hambe rg.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Education. We also have 23 students of Grade 3 standing from Anola Elem entary School, under the direction of Mrs. Hadden. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield. On behalf of all the hon ourable me mbers, we welcome you here this morning. Presenting Petitions ..• Reading and Rece iving Petitions ••• PRESEN TING RE PORTS BY STANDING AND SPE CIAL COMM ITTEES MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Radisson. MR.

ABE KOVN ATS: The Comm ittee of Supply has considered certain Resolutions, directs me to report progress and ask leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Me mber for Dauphin, that the Report of the Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STAT EMEN TS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONAL D W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a number of documen ts: Return under

Section 20 of The Public Officers Act; Return under

Section 66 of The Legislative Assembl y Act; Re turn under

Section 13 of The Special Municipal Loan and General Em ergency Fund Act; and the_Sta teme nt of the Public Trustee of Manitoba; and the Public Accounts for the year ended March 31, 1979 ; and the Report of the Provincial Auditor for the year ended March 31, 19 79. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAM ES E. DO WNEY (Arthu r): Mr. Speaker, I have a stateme nt which I would like to make, and I have copies here for distribution. Mr.

Speaker, this govern ment's comm itment to the fam ily farm in Manitoba's agricultural sector is evident through the many programs, not the least of which is a decision to lease hopper cars to improve the grain movement on the prairies. This morning, I am pleased to invite all mem bers of the Legislative Assembly to participate in a ceremony, on Monday morning, introducing the first of the hopper cars leased by the Province of Manitoba which will assist in the moveme nt of the grain off the prairie provinces to the port facilities.

It was just last Novem ber that we finalized agreem ents for this important investment to not only western farm ers, but to the economy at large. And I am very proud of the Agriculture Department, which has expedited the matter to the degree in which they have. So that on Monday morning, complete with Manitoba decals, the first of these leased hopper cars will be in service. - 479 -

Friday, 7 March, 198 0 The moveme nt of grain has, Mr. Speaker, been a problem for ma ny years, and there have been many meetings and task force assigned to deal with this specific situation. There have been many improvements, but many more improveme nts are needed for the agricultural sector to ensure the future of the significant aspect of our economy and the province. Prem ier Lyon will assist in the loading of the first of these cars at Fort Whyte at 11 o'clock on Monday morning, and I would like to invite you, Mr. Speaker, and all me mbers of the Assembly, to join in this cere mony. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Membe r for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Speaker, we appreciate the fact that the Minister is in a position to indicate that the Gove rnme nt of Manitoba is in a position to assist in the moveme nt of grain to western and easter n ports, presumably mainly the Lakehead ports.

But I would like to suggest to the Minister of Agriculture, and the govern ment, that what we witness here is a responsibility in the movement of grain placed upon the shoulders of the Legislative Assembly, indeed, the Parlia ment of Canada, notwithstanding the fact that there is a statute in the books of Canada that require the railw ays to move grain at statutory rates. Now it is sad, Mr.

Speaker, to note that the Govern ment of Canada, over many many years - in fact, in the last decade-and-a-half - has been unable to enforce the statute to the extent that the railways, since that period of time, or during that period of time, have neglec ted their statutory responsibilities, in effect have been on strike for lack of compensation as they allege, Mr. Speaker. I believe this is not the way in which we should be proceeding.

I believe that while it is an interim meas ure, what is required is either reinforcement of present legislation so that the railw ays would be put in a position of having to fulfill their obligations pursuant to the statutes of Canada. And failing to do that, Mr. Speaker, then the responsibility, obviously, of any government, is that they assume the responsibilities that the railw ays refuse to carry out. Mr. Speaker, I, in ma king those comme nts, welco me the fact that in the interim we have to have some thing. But this is certainly not the way that the business of this land should be carried on. MR.

SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN Mac MA STER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a stateme nt to make and I have copies. Mr. Speaker, tomorrow is International Wo men's Day. It is an event which grew out of struggles by New York garment workers, and out of the cam paign by wome n of all political strifes for the right to vote. In recent years, Canadian women have recognized this day by keying in on the problems with crimes of violence and rape which wome n face.

This year , women in Manitoba have expanded their program to include a Law Conference at the University of Manitoba, and there are activities at the International Centre in the YW CA. I think this is a good time to remind ourselves that, as leg islators, we must continue to work on behalf of women. We must never forget that women still face special problems. Society itself must continue to improve the opportunities for women to work wherever they want, and whate ver job they want , whethe r it be in the home or in the private and public sectors.

Every mem ber of this Cha mber has a wife or a daughte r or a grandmother. We all had mothers. We are fortunate that two of our colle agues in this House are wome n. As the Minister responsible for the Women's Bureau, and as a husband and as the father of a teen-aged daughter, I want to recogn ize the contribution and the accomplishme nts of women of Manitoba, and I want to pledge our gove rnme nt's continuing support to help the Manitoba women meet their special problems and concerns. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Membe r for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Well, myself and my colleague s on this side of the House, of course, want to join in in offering congratulations and pledges of support to the wome n of the Province of Manitoba, and indeed to the women of Canada, in the whole. I think we must make special note that this is International Women's Day, and extend our congratulations and our support to all women throughtout this world. It is, perhaps, an appropriate time to review some of the contributions that have been made by wome n to this society, and also some of the contributions that we have made, as - 480 -

Friday, 7 March, 198 0 legislators, to enable women to share, to take their fair place, to take their fair share, in the good> and the services that society produces. I speak quite proudly right now as a mem ber of the New De mocratic Party, a party that brought the best Fam ily Law legislat ion to this Province of Manitoba, and also as a me mber of a Legislature and a mem ber of a party that is commi tted to furthering the cause that wome n so strongly fight for in these days.

I th ink it is an appropriate time, as we are discussing the Women's Bureau today in the Estimates pr ocedures, and I look forward to carrying this conservation on during that discussion that will follow the question period today. Thank you. MR. SPE AK ER: Notices of Motion ••. Introduction of Bills ... MOTIONS OF CONDOL EN CE MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STER LING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I have three Motions of Condolence to present to the Assembly this morning.

Perhaps the House would permit me to make a brief preliminary comme nt, mainly for the benefit of our three new members of the Legisla ture who have joined us since the last session, to indicate that during each session where former me mbers of the Legislature have died in the intervening time, it is the long custom of this House to move Motions of Condolence to the relatives of the deceased. It is significant, as the new me mbers will notice, Mr.

Speaker, that each Notice of Condolence is moved in precisely the same wording, and the motion is customarily moved by the First Minister, seconded by the present mem ber of the House who sits for the electoral district for which the deceased sat, and then responses are customarily made by the Leader of the Opposition and other mem bers of the House who may have known or who may wish to make some contribution to the Motion of Condolence. So, with that brief word of explanation, Mr. Speaker, I should like first of all to bring to the attention of the House, the death of Mr.

Joseph Wawrykow, who was first elected to the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba in the general election of July 27 , 19 36, as the CCF Member for Gi mli. He was re-elected in the general election of April 22, 1941 , and he was not a candidate in the general election of 194 5. Mr. Wa wrykow was born on April 25, 19 08, in the District of Dneister, near Gimli, where he obtained his elem entary and his se condary education.

After gra duating from the University of Manitoba in 193 2 with a Degree of Bachelo r of Science and Agriculture, he taught school before returning to the university to obtain a further degree in Education. He was the principal of the Fisher Branch High School from 1934 to 19 36, a me mber of the CC F. As I mentioned, he was elected first to the Legisla ture in 1936 for the Constituency of Gimli, re-elected in 1941, and his contemporaries at that time reported that he served ably as a membe r until 19 45, when he retired from act ive politics.

In 1943, he joined the Seeds Departm ent of the Manitoba Pool Elevat ors as a director of seed purchasing and public relations officer. He held various positions with the Manitoba Pool, and retired only in 1973, having acted as Manager of the Seeds Department for the previous seven years. He was a devoted mem ber of his church of the St. Nicholas Ukra inian Catholic Church for over thirty years, and held a number of positions in the councils of that church . He was survived by his wife, by his daughter, and by his son. Mr. Speaker, in not ha ving known Mr.

Wawrykow personally, I bring to the atte ntion of the House the death of this me mber who served this House faithfully for the period when he was in this Chamber, and I have the responsibility and the honour to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that this House convey to the family of the late Joseph Wawrykow, who served as a me mber of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereave ment , and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active commu nity and public service, and that Mr.

Speaker be req uested to forward a copy of this resolution to the fam ily. MOTION presented. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minister of Education. - 481 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 HON. KE ITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, as the present me mber for Gimli, I feel honored to have been asked to second the Motion of Condolence for Joseph Wawrykow. Although I did not have the pleasure of knowing Mr. Wawrykow personally, his contribution to his constituency and our province certa inly indicates an outstanding career of service and achievement to others. Mr. Wawr ykow, as has been mentioned, was born in the Dniester district, some four-and-a-half miles northwest of Gimli, and attended the school of that name.

It is interesting to note the great emp hasis placed on education by the early Ukrainian settle rs of the Gimli area. The Dniester School was built in 1909, Mr. Speaker, one year after Mr. Wawrykow was born, and it became a two-room school in 19 20. One can imagine the excitement and pride of Joseph Wawrykow and the other students when the second room was added to their school.

He continued his education, as has been mentioned, at the University of Mani toba, graduated with a degree of Bachelo r of Science and Agriculture, went on to take a Bachelor of Education degree, and subsequently became a teacher and principal in the Interlake region. Joseph Wawrykow, Mr. Speaker, exemplified a large number of young Manitobans of Ukrainian descent who recognized the value of education and pursued it in the face of great hardship and personal sacrifice.

His election at the age of 28 years to this Legislature marked the third time in Manitoba's then short history, that Gimli constituency had sent a Manitoban of Ukrainian ancestry to this Legisla ture. Mr. Speaker, it is significant that up to the year 1941, 10 legislators of Ukrainian descent had been elected in Manitoba. Joseph Wawrykow was one of those ten le gislative pioneers. He served his constituency well from the years 193 6 to 194 5. Upon retireme nt, he joined Manitoba Pool Elevato rs, and of course his ability was wel l-recognized there and he rose to the position of Manager of the Seeds Depar tment.

A dedicated commu nity work er, Joseph Warwykow was a long- time membe r of St. Nicholas Ukrainian Church, and served on the church council and as a faithful choir mem ber. His other commu nity services included work on the Board of Directors of the Progress Credit Union. Joseph Wawrykow's outstanding record of service to the people of Manitoba, as a legislator, his unselfish dedication to his comm unity as a citizen, his efforts to improve the society in which he lived, are the mark of a man who took his responsibility as a citizen of this province seriously. Mr.

Speaker, I join with the mem bers of this House and all citizens of Manitoba, in expressing my deepest sym pathy to his wife and membe rs of his family. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . HOW ARD PAW LEY (Selk irk): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to say a few words in respect to the Condolence Motion in honour of one Joseph Wawrykow. Joseph Wawrykow was one of the pioneers in our movement. He worked hard during the 19 30s on behalf of the forerunner of the New Democratic Party, the Co-operative Comm onwealth Federation.

Having been born in Gimli, and having taught in Fisher Branch, much of his early political activity took place in working on behalf of the CCF during those years. In 1938 , he was elected to the Manitoba Legislature, and in the period 193 8 to 194 5, they were difficult years - membe rs are fully awa re it was the years of the Second World War, the years in which there was a coalition gover nment in operation in Manitoba - and Mr. Wawrykow's leade r at that time, S.J. Farm er, in fact, sat as a Minister of Labour during a portion of the period of time in which the late Mr. Wawrykow served in this House.

After 194 5, Mr. Wa wrykow contributed the remainder of his working life toward the co-operative movement and towards the credit union movement.

And there is no question that through the endeavours of Joseph Wawrykow, the political field, the early construction of the Co-operative Com monwealth Federat ion, his service within the Legislature, in proposing legislation that was of benefit to Manitobans, his later work and his church, the credit union and in the co-operative moveme nt, that in fact he contributed thoughout his life towards developing a spirit of co-operation, a spirit of brotherhood, the service towards a better provincial comm unity for all to live in. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge. - 482 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 MR S. JUNE WESTBU RY : Mr. Speaker, on behalf of those Liberals who have sat in this House in the intervening years, may I join with previous speakers in extending sincere sympathy to the family of this distinguished former member of the Leg islature, Joseph Wawrykow . QUESTIO N put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . LYON : Mr. Speaker, the second Motion of Condolence is in respect of a distinguished mem ber of a distinguished family of Manitoba, name ly Nicholas A. Hryhorczuk, a name that is well-known in the political anals of this province. Mr.

Hryhorczuk was born December 19, 18 88, and he died last Nove mber 23, in his 90th year. He was first elected to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba in the general election of June 29, 1920, as an independent farm er representing the electo ral division of Ethelbert. He was re-elected in 1922 as a me mber of the United Farmers of Manitoba, in 1927 as a Progressive, in 19 32 as a Liberal-Progress ive. He was defeated in the gen eral election of July 27, 193 6, but was again re-elected in the general election of April 22, 1941 as a Liberal-Progressive membe r of the Coalition.

He was agai n defeated in the general election of October 5, 19 45. So he served, but for a period of four or five years, continually from 1920 until 19 45. He certainly was one of the distinguished senior veterans of this Assembly. He was born, as I mentioned, in 1888 in the old country, in Kolomaya, in Western Ukraine. His family em igrated to Canada in 1897 and settled in the Drifting River district , north of Gilbert Plains. He married Mrs.

Hryhorczu k in that area as a young man, and she was a very young girl at the time of the ma rriage in 1905, and in 191 1 he moved to Ethelbert where he established a business and re mained there until 1978 , when he became a resident of St. Paul's Nursing Home in Dauphin. I ma y say as a personal aside, Mr. Speaker, that it was at St. Paul's Nursing Home in Dauphin in October of last year that I had an opportunity for a good visit with Mr. Hryhorczuk. We talked about his time in the Legislature.

We talked about his late son, Mike, who was known to many of us in this Legisla ture, a forme r distinguished me mber from Ethelbert constituency, who was a one-time Attorney-General of the province and a me mber of the opposition in early days when some of us in this House serv ed, after 1958. His mind was excell ent. His hearing had failed a bit, but he had lively rec ollections of the personalities and of the people and questions about all of them. And he told me on that occasion, Mr.

Speaker, how extreme ly proud he was that his grandson, Boris Hryhorczuk, was carrying on in public service in the Province of Manitoba, as the Deputy Minister of Government Services. So he was alive and well to all of the situations going on in the province, and it was a delight to be with him. And it was only a matter of a few weeks later that he was taken from us. He was a very active participant in the Ukrainian culture in his own area and throughout the province.

One of the founders of the Ethelbert Town Hall, a very active me mber of the Drama Society, he was instrumental in a number of commu nity activities which still bear his mark, and the subsequent mark of membe rs of his family, down through the years. He served in this House under the premierships of the late Premier John Bracken and the late Premie r Stuart Ga rson. It's of significance to note, Mr. Speaker, that he and Douglas Campbe ll were the two living membe rs of the 1922 Legislature which saw Prem ier Bracken become the Premier of this province. Mr.

Campbell is now the sole distinctive survivor of that hardy group of early legislators from 19 22, who were membe rs of that first Progressive Govern ment , in 1922 . And Mr. Cam pbell, to this day, can give you a very accurate and a very com pelling story of how he and Nick Hryhorcz uk, and the other membe rs of the Progressive Party , lit erally interviewed the men who were being sought to be Leader of the Progressive Party in 1922 , because they had been elected without a leader. And the man that they were to select was then to become the Premier of Manitoba, and how Mr.

Bracken had turned them down and went back to the University of Manitoba in his car, and then was subsequently call ed back to the meeting and later was convinced to take on the lead ership of that party, and then became the Premier of Manitoba for a span of some 20 years. - 483 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 Nick Hryhorczuk was at that meet ing. Nick Hryhorczuk was one of the supporters of John Bracken. Nick Hryhorczuk was thereby part of the very com pelling political history of our province at that time. Mr. Hryhorczuk, as I've mentioned, participated in many ma ny community activities. He was a person who carried a zest for life in himself, and you couldn't help but be electrified when you were around him because there seemed to be that spirit of "go" with him at all times.

He devoted his life to proving, by his own actions, that the Ukrainian people in Canada could promote and remain true to their ethnic heritage , and at the same time be exem plary Canadians. And, Mr. Speaker, I can think of no more exe mplary Canadian than Nick Hryhorczuk. That he in turn instilled in his family that sa me kind of com munity and public service, is something for which all Manitobans owe him a deep debt of gratitude. His son, Mike; to whom we paid respects on his death in 1978, carried on that marvelous tradition.

And of course, as I've mentioned before, the fact that his grandson is carrying on in public service was a matter of great joy to Mr. Hryho rczuk as recently as a few weeks be fore his death. So, Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to move, seconded by the Honourable Me mber for Roblin, that this House convey to the fam ily of the late Nicholas A. Hryhorczuk, who served as a me mber of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereave ment, and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of act ive comm unity and public service, and that Mr.

Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this Resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McK ENZIE: Mr. Speaker, it was July, 1978, that this House expressed the condolences of all Manitoba and Canada, to the family of the late Mike Hryhorczuk, as the First Minister has just related to the House; and today we are expressing the condolences to his father, a very unique situation where a father and son had the distinction and the honour of servi ng for those decades in this House. Mr .

Speaker, I found it very interesting in checking the rec ords of the 1921 session of the Legislature regarding some of the things that this learned and great man did as a Member for Ethelbert, and I found that he served on the Standing Orders Commit tee, Printing, Agriculture and Immig ration and Municipal Affairs during his first term.

And, upon further review of the Legislature and his record, I noted an eloquent speech that he made, I think it was on the 4th of March, 1921, pleading for the dropping of the word "foreigner" in connection with the settlers who were representing other than British nationality in this Legisla ture. And in that same speec h, Mr. Speaker, he was very very critical of the Winnipeg Free Press, and pointed out that the people of his group, or his constituency, are not the ones that had brought up the bi-lingual issue during the 1920 election campaign. Nor, Mr.

Hryhorczuk said, had it ever been discussed at any of his campaign meetings. So, it's very interesting through time how issue was still around in those days and has been with us over those years. He went on further, in that particular speech, to accuse the Winnipeg Free Press of attempting to break up this newl y-formed farmers' party, which he was so dedicated to, and of which he was a member.

The records show as well that he was very critical of what he described in his speech as "that famous officer of the provincial government" who was in charge of Manitoba's schools in those days, for not entertaining petitions from Ruthenians - he described his group as Ruthenians - as to how they wanted to operate their public schools and educate their children in the Ethelbert area.

And one of the re marks that struc k me, he said: "Give Ruthenians some opportunity and they will manifest that they are capable of performing wonderful things," said this very learned and Honourable Me mber for Ethelb ert, as he closed his rema rks on the 4th of March, 1921. So, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to have the honour and the privilege of seconding this motion. He was a very close friend of mine for all the years that I've represented Ethelb ert, and no words of mine can express the high esteem, the respect, loyalty, devotion and the down-to-earth friendship of this truly outstanding Manitoba pioneer.

Over the years of his extreme ly useful and very important role in life, he gained the undivided loyalty of an enormous wealth of friends, neighbours, and people from all walks of life. - 484 -

Friday, 7 March , 198 0 And, as the record shows throughout his life , he gave really of his skills and talents as he continually went about striving for the better quality of life for all ma nkind, but especially those of his constituents who arrived in Canada - and particularly in Manitoba - as they were imm igrants from the Ukraine and Eastern Europe in those days. So, Mr.

Speaker, I repeat the quote from the honourable me mber of that day in 1921: "G ive Ruthenians some opportunity, and they will manifest that they are capable of wonderful things." This great Manitoban gave many Ruthenians, and Manitoba citizens, from all walks of life that opportunity. Mr. Speaker , it is my pleasure to second the motion. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAW LEY : Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to ha ve the opportunity to associate the opposition with this motion.

In reading some of the ba ckground of the late Nick Hryhorczuk, one certai nly is impressed by the fact that we are today honouring a very strong individual, one that was of independent mind, yet very dedicated and very com mitted to those principles which he stood for, and served for a quarter of a century in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. And I'm sure very few of us will be able to share that privilege to serve a quarter of a century the people, the province and Manitoba in the Manitoba Legislature all the way from 1920 to 19 45.

During that period of time, Nick Hryhorczuk, of course, represented his own area with industry and with principle, and at the same time was alw ays very very conscious of the contribution by the Ukrainian people to the development of the Province of Manitoba, very very conscious of need to extend an understanding of the Ukrainian culture language throughout, so that it could in, fact, play a very im portant role within the Manitoba heritage. And probably one of his finest contributions in that reg ard is that his son, Mike Hryhorczuk , became the first Ukrainian Cabinet Minister in the Province of Manitoba.

And then, as the First Minister mentioned, of Ukrainian origin; and then, as the First Minister mentioned, the fact that Boris Hryhorczuk later became his Deputy Minister within the present gover nment. So, we, today honour an individual, strong, com mitted, lengthy public service, one that represented something very very solid, very meani ngful, to the provincial commu nity. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Membe r for Fort Rouge. MR S. WESTBU RY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Liberals, I wish to join in honouring the memo ry of Nicholas Hryhorczuk, who served in this House for a nearly a quart er-of-a-century.

He died only a few months ago, Mr. Speaker, and it's ha rd for some of us to believe that he sat as a Membe r of this Leg islature before many of us were born. Mr. Hryhorczuk was active in many areas of his community, and particularly in encouraging the preservation of the Ukrainian customs and heritage. Following this distinguished ma n's example, Mr. Speaker, membe rs of his family ha ve continued to make significant contributions to the province. Reference has alr eady been made to Mr.

Nicholas Hryhorczuk' s son, Michael Hryhorczuk, who became a Membe r of the Legislature for the sa me constituency of Ethelbert in 1949, and who became the first Manitoba Cabinet Minister of Ukrainian origin, having been appointed as Attorney-General. Nicholas Hryhorczuk' s daughter, Mrs. Nadia Ewanchyshyn, has served for many years as an ald erman of the town of Dauphin, and I've had the privilege of serving on volunteer organizations with Mrs. Ewanchyshyn. As we have heard, Boris Hryhorczuk is Deputy Minister of Government Service,s following an exemplary caree r with the City of Winnipeg.

And many times in the City of Winnipeg, I heard him speak with great pride of his father and grandfath er, and of their contributions to our province. Mr. Speaker, on beha lf of all Liberals , I join with previous speakers in the motion of sympathy to the family. QUESTIO N put, MOTION carried. MR . LYON : Mr. Speaker, many of us in this Chambe r knew, and I think it's no exaggeration to say loved, Abe Harrison. Abe Harrison was first elected to this Assembly in a by-election on June 22, 19 43, repres enting the then electoral division of Killar ney as a Liberal-Conservative coalition candidate.

He was re-elected in the general election of 19 45 - 485 -

Friday, 7 March , 19 80 as a Progress ive-Conservative, on Nove mber 10, 19 49 as a Progressive-Co nservative Coalition, on June 8, 19 53 - again as a Progressive Conservative, June 16 , 19 58, May 14, 1959 and Decmembe r 14, 1962 . He retired from the Legislature, and did not seek re-election in the election of June of 19 66. So, in all, he sat in this House for some 23 years.

During that time, in the Roblin adm inistration , he served as Speaker of this Chamber, in your role, Sir, from October 23, 1958 to February 27, 19 63, and later on was Minister without Portfolio from February 27, 1963 until May 15 of 1966. When you think of Abe Harrison, you think imm ediately of Holmfield. And Holmf ield is that excellent little village that lies just a few miles to the east of Killarney. And when you think of Holmfield, you think of Harrison Milling Company - and if you've been into Holm field, the largest building in the com munity is the Harrison Elevato r and Milling Company.

And if you're fortunate to go over there and go into the office, you can find still, today, so far as I am aware, home -ground flour, you can find good home bran, you can find the kind of unadulterated cooking ma terial that Manitobans, pioneer Manitobans, were famous for producing at the Harrison Mills. Abe was a mem ber of a pioneer family that had settled in that district, Mr. Speaker, some considerabl e numbe r of years ago. He received his education there, he carried on that fa mily milling and grain business with his broth er and his sister until their retirement.

And then subsequently his two sons, Bill and Errick, carried on the business, even though they had taken train ing in the law and practiced law in the Town of Killarney. One of his sons still lives in Holm field, as a matte r of fact, Mr. Speaker. He and his wife Amy, who many of us are privil eged to know, graced this House and the social part of our relationships in this House for many many years. Abe was the kind of a man who was very very self-effacing. As I say, Sir, I had the privilege of serving in this House while he sat in your chair.

He was not a Speaker, as other me mbers will recall, who tried to enforce his will upon the House. He listened caref ully. As he would say sometimes from the Chair, "I may not always be right , but I'll try to listen and do the best that I can." And in many ways, that typified Abe's life. I don't know of anyone who disliked Abe Harrison. I have yet to find anyone who was an enemy of Abe Harrison, because he was not that kind of a person.

He could find and make friendships am ong all groups in society and with his kind of good humour, quiet humour, and with his interest in his respsonsibilities as a member, he was a delight to be with and a delight to serve with in this House. He served in the Cabinet, as I mentioned, of wh ich I was a mem ber, for some three years before his retireme nt. And again, he was not one of those who would take the lead in many of the major discussions that would be going on, but his quiet voice and his quiet wisdom was certainly not lost upon his colleagues in the Cabinet of that day.

Abe had a deep understanding of human nature. He had a deep understanding of his fellow man. And he had seen all of the foibles that his long life had given him the opportunity to see of his fellow man and was prepared, I think, with God's guidance, to accept man as he found him and to make a friend of every man and every woman as he found them, and to be assured that, in doing so, he was fulfilling that higher moral and ethi cal rule that all of us would aspire to follow under God's guidance. Well, Mr. Speaker, he is known and fondly rem embered by many of us in this Chamber.

It was my pleasure, not only to know him and to work with him in this Chambe r and in the Cabinet room, it was my pleasure to have visited him on a numbe r of occasions in his constituency and to be in his constituency and, as recen tly as 197 6, to be at his home in Holmfield and to visit with him briefly. Mr. Speaker, we will all fondly reme mber Abe for the characteristics that I have described and for ma ny others that oth ers in this Chambe r can recall, activities and acts of kindness that he carried out on their behalf.

And so it is with a very great deal of pleasure and honour, I should say, Sir, that I move, seconded by the Honourable, the Member for Rock Lake, that this House convey to the family of the late Abram Willia m Harrison, who served as a me mber of the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereave ment, and its appreciation of his devotion to duty and a useful life of active comm unity and public serv ice, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Rock Lake. - 486 -

Friday, 7 March , 1980 MR . HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise at this occasion, to ha ve the opportunity to say that I have had the pleasure of representing the constituency that the late Abram William Harrison had the honour of re presenting for 23 consecutive years, name ly Rock Lake and Killarney, as was mentioned by the First Minister. Abe Harrison was a man of great courage, was a man of his own convictions, and, as was indicated by the First Minister , a very quiet-spoken person, and I have had the honour and pleasure of knowing Abe Harrison for at least 25 years.

And I can recall in the days when he was in this Legislature, I used to discuss with him matt ers in our com munity of problems of individuals, and I alw ays found him very compassionate. He was the kind of man who believed in the free enterprise system, but at the same time, understood and had com passion for his fellow man. I should like, just for a moment, to dw ell on Abe's private life. His fam ily originally ca me from Ontario, as I am given to understand, and they settled in Wakopa, which is a sma ll community in southern Manitoba, where they built a grain elevator.

And, as the First Minister has described to you this morning, just over a year ago, they celebrated the one hundredth anniversary of that elevator and flour mill being in the Harrison family. And it was my pleasure to be able to one of those guests to visit the Harrisons in assisting them in celebrating that great occasion. I should like to say here, Mr. Speaker, that the Harrison Flour Mills at Hol mfield is the only independent flour mill operating in western Canada today.

Getting back to Abe Harrison's political life, and ha ving had the pleasure, as I said, of serving the area that he re presented for 23 years, I used to travel around the commu nity, talk to people about Abe Harrison, and as the people knew him, there is one tribute I think that is most fitting. And I can't think of a finer tribute to make to any one individual who has given 23 years of his life to duty, to his community and to his country. And Abe, Mr. Speaker, was known by the people who have come to know hi m so well, as "Honest Abe". And as I got to know Abe Harrison, I come to realize how true this was.

I also want to say to his family that , while Abe Harrison was a very quiet spoken person, he used to make comme nts about various things. And I always took note and listened, because Abe Harrison was one who gave me a good deal of advice and guidance, which I have been better for in my serv ing of the people of the community in the constituency of Rock Lake, and also the Province of Manitoba. And I, Mr. Speaker, wish to thank the First Minister for allowing me the opportunity to second the Condolence Motion to his wife and his family. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns. MR. SAU L CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, me mbers on this side join with all membe rs of the Legislature in this Condolence Motion that is before us now. It's a fine tradition, that has become accepted in this Legislature , to recall to membe rs of the House - and through them to recall to Manitobans - the services that have been given by colleagues of the past. I suppose that when we deal with the Condolence Motion of a person who has been departed from this House for so long that none of us knew them, that we have the opportunity to reflect on the tradition that has been left to us, of the service of those who have gone before it.

And it is less of a sense of bereave ment for those people we did not know than it is, of course, for those that we knew and with whom we worked.

On the other hand, it is a feeling of satisfaction that we can recognize that people who have served in the Legisla ture for many years - as is the case of Abe Harrison and those other two motions we've already dealt with - that after having served in this House, they ha ve continued to serve the commu nity of Manitoba in their own particular commu nity, for many years, and had the good fortune of li ving long after having left this House, and continuing to make their contributions to society.

In the case of Abe Harr ison, I find that there are only four of us in this House today, who did serve with him as membe rs of the Legisla ture at the same time. In my case, my first four years of this Leg islature coincided with Abe Harris on's last four years. And I re membe r him well, not as Speaker because at that time he was a me mber of the Cabinet and sat in the second row in the corner seat.

And I re mem ber him as a kindly, fine, gentle person whose every action showed courtesy and consideration, and it is a memo ry that I have which makes me feel very warm in recollection, of ha ving worked with a coll eague - 487 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 of a different political belie f but one who, like all others, had a sense of need to serve and to wish to contribute. That is why I think it is fine that we recognize the service of our former colleagues, and, as I say, join on behalf of membe rs on this side, with all other me mbers, in support of this motion. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Boniface. MR . LAURENT L. DESJARDIN S: Mr. Speaker, 22 years ago, when I first entered this House as somew hat of a crusader that was going to change many things, the man sitting in the Chair that you now occupy was Mr. Abe Harrison.

As you probably know, I wasn't always an exa mple of decorum, and rve had my innings with different Speakers, but I can say that I never won any with Mr. Harrison. I also, as the Me mber for St. Johns mentioned, rem ember him, not for his fiery speeches, but for being a decent man, a human man, a down-to-earth, unassuming man, but always had dignity. The First Minister is so right in saying that nobody, but nobody ever had Abe as an enemy. I don't think there are too many Speakers that can say that , or for that matter, too many me mbers of this House, but this is one thing - you could not get mad at Mr.

Harrison. It's a pleasure and an honour for me, also, to join the previous speaker, to pay tribute to this man who served his country and this province well, and join in the Motion of Condolence to his family . MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Me mber for Virden. MR. MO RRIS McGRE GOR: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to join the Condolence Motion in honour of Abe Harrison. I sat with Abe from 1962 to 19 66, and the quiet diplomacy which he displayed certainly im pressed me as a new me mber, and his fairness in debate.

I reme mber the support I got from Abe Harrison on a resolution that I had presented at that time to do with un employment insurance for farm labourers, and I remembe r the rather rocky start it started. But his support and his words got that particular resolution back on the proper track, and late r approved. And Pll alw ays reme mber Abe for his rather quiet, deadpan humo ur and a little chuckle that followed, and I would like to join the rest on the motion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge. MR S. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On behalf of all Liberals, and in particular those who have sat in this House over the years, both with Mr. Harrison and since his retirement, may I join with other speakers in extending sincere sym pathy to the membe rs of the family in the loss of this distinguished former me mber of the Legislature, Abram Harrison. QUESTIO N put, MOTION carried. ORAL QUESTIO NS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAW LEY : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Further to the state ment that was provided to the House yesterday by the Minister responsible for energy , the Minister of Finance in which he outlined a disposition of lease rights pertaining to oil, the giving away of a considerable part of the heritage of Manitoba, and in view of the recent state ments by the Premi er of the Province of Newfoundland, Brian Peckford, to the effect that Newfoundland intends to obtain an equity interest in the develo pment of natural resources within the Province of Newfoundland, my question to the First Minister is whether he will be consulting with his colleague, the Conservative Premier of the Province of Newfoundland, in order to ascertai n whether or not there is not the real feasibility of a different route for Manitoba to pursue, a route that's not too dissimilar from that which is being pursued by his colleague, the Premier of the Province of Newfoundland? - 488 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . LYON : Mr. Speaker, I am alw ays happy, of course to have my honourable friend's doctrina ire advice as to what should be the policy with respect to mineral developments in Manitoba.

Pm sure that when the Minister of Mines comes to his Estimates, he will detail to the Leader of the Opposition, and to the membe rs of his party, what has been happening in geophysical exploration in Manitoba as a result of Manitoba, once again, becoming competitive in terms of not being a force-fed partner in mineral and/or geophysical exploration in this provin ce. But I can merely say to him that from time to time, of course, we consult with all of the Prem iers of Canada with respect to the various policies that they put forw ard.

I consult with my neighbour and colleague, the Premi er of Saskatch ewan, who has not slavishly in any way followed the policy that is being advocated by the Leader of the Opposition, and I can reassure him that we have - unlike hi mself, Mr. Speaker, we have no doctrinaire hangups at all. Our policy, however, will be di rected by what is in the best public interest of the people of Manitoba. And I must say, Mr.

Speaker, that the announcement yesterday by the Minister of Mines was an examp le of how the new policy is succeeding in Manitoba, because the am ounts that have been earned by the Treasury far outstrip the am ounts that were earned when my honourable friends were in office. And far from giving awa y, as my honourable friend would use the term, giving away mineral leases in Manitoba, the terms of the lease are from one to five years, Mr.

Speaker, and they are put up for public tender, and the public purse of Manitoba is benefiting in a way that they never did when my honourable friends had their closed-circuit version of state oil companies operating in Manitoba - state oil companies that never ca me into existence, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to revert to my earlier question, and simply ask the First Minister whether he has consulted or whether he intends to consult with Premier Brian Peckford, Province of New foundland, pertaining to equity involve ment of the public in the development of the na tural resources. Has he consulted, does he intend to consult, this so-called doctrinaire position that has been outlined by his col leag ue, the Premier of the Province of Newfoundland? It doesn't require a lengthy answer, just an indication of yes or no. MR. LY ON: Mr.

Speaker, all Conservat ives that I am awa re of are non-doctrinaire, they are empirical pragmatists. My honourable friend ought to look up both words, and he would find out that im pericism and pragmatism can best serve the public interest rather than 19 th Century ideology, which my honourable friend follows so slavishly. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I know that according to the Rules I have no right to demand an answer.

But again, I am wondering if the First Minister has simply overlooked answering the question which I have made in a spew of verbiag e , because again I was interested - I am sure me mbers of the House are interested - factually whether the First Minister will be discussing with Brian Peckford the thrust in the Province of Newfoundland pertaining to equity involv ement. MR . SPEAK ER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Me mber f or St. Johns. MR . CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to address a question to the Minister of Tourism.

In view of the indications by his predecessor Minister of Tourism last year that membe rs of the Tourist and Convention Bureau would be attending a convention in Breezy Point, Minnesota, of the Manitoba Bar Association to attempt to persuade them to hold future conventions of the Manitoba Bar Association in Manitoba, could the Minister of Tourism indicate to us what efforts have succeeded in persuading them in regard to this year's convention ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any efforts on the part of the Tourist and Convention Association at the present time. I am - 489 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 aware of the efforts that were made last year, but I am not in a position to report on that right now. I would take the question as notice and let the me mber know. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder, then, whet her the Mininster could indicate if there is any special effort that is being made by his department directed to Manitoba organizations in an attempt to have them hold their conventions within Manitoba so that Manitoba dollars are spent in Manitoba, and so that there is no loss of balance of payment by Manitobans holding their Manitoba conventions outside of the province and outside of Canada? MR. JOHNSTO N: There certainly is, Mr . Speaker.

If the honourable me mber had taken the time to attend the Canadian Outerwear Fashion Show, which was held by and sponsored by the outerwear fashion manufacturers of the province of Manitoba, he would have found that it wa s done by Canada, Manitoba, and attracted 450 buyers from United States into this city, in this province, just this week. All efforts are being mad e to have Manitobans have their conventions he re and Canadians, Am ericans and anybody else. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns with a final suppleme ntary. MR. CHERNIA CK: Mr.

Speaker, now that the Minister has taken the opportunity to talk about some success, and I recogn ize that, which has nothing to do with a convention of a Manitoba organ ization being held in Manitoba, may I ask the Minister whether he is aw are of th e fact that the Manitoba Bar Association is proposing to hold its convention this year in Fargo, North Dakota, on June 5th to 8th, 1980; and if he is aware of that , what is he doing about the attempt to change it; and if he is not aware of it, wha t is he prepared to do to attempt to persuade them to stay in Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTO N: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the first statement is wrong. The Manitoba Government had a lot to do with helping the fashion industry ha ve it here, and so did the Canadian Government. I can only assure you that I am not aware until now - I ma y have been neglectful in not know ing it - but I am not aware that the Manitoba Bar Association is ha ving their convention in North Dakota aga in. I can only say that we would do everything to try to per suade them othe rwise. But I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that we don't have an iron curtain around Manitoba, and we are good neighbours with the people of North Dakota. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GR EEN (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, apropos the first questions that were responded to by the First Minister, can the Minister of Mines tell us what the present value of the public interest in the mining find at Flin Flon is - the one in which the public of Manitoba, in partnership with Granges Exploration of Sweden, found a viable mining devel opment in northern Manitoba. Has the Minister recently evaluated the public wealth which has been created by that deve lopment? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there have been some estimates made on the value in terms of the number of tons of minable ore that are there. There also has been some speculation based on rate s of return from the point of view of copper prices or base metal prices. But, Mr.

Speaker, none of these come into any real world of reality until such time as the development of the mine takes place , and I can advise the House and the Member for Inkster, that continues to be pursued, and I expect that hopefully, some time during the course of the year, we are able to announce to the House that there is some progress that is going to be made on that site. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for Inkster. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Mines confirm the previous advice that if the public wished to dispose of that interest at the present time, they could get for it, - 490 -

Friday , 7 March, 198 0 Mr. Speaker, more money than was spent by all the exploration that was carried on by the public of Manitoba during the years that we decided that we had some ... MR . SPEA KE R: Order please, order please. I believe the question could be considered to be hypothetical. The Honourable Membe r for Inkster. MR.

GREEN: ... him to confirm a present fact, that the present value of that devel opment, if the Crown wished to sell it to a private interest, would result in the public treasury rec eiving more money than they have spent in all of the development projects that they undertook when the people of Manitoba were going it alone and with private interests in partnership. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, the membe r's entree into this area of speculation was by way of the announce ment that was made yesterday regarding the expiration for permits to undertake develo pment or exploration work by the private sector. But, Mr. Speaker, the membe r has now taken it into the area of mining. I think it would be appropriate to advise the House and remind the mem ber that the forme r govern ment undertook a f airly extensive oil exploration program, gas development program, spent hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and didn't even ge t a teacupful, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr.

Speaker, he's conveniently ignoring the fact that they got zip re turn on their oil exploration work, but he wants to now cover that up by speculating there may be a return in mining. Mr. Speaker, it's quite possible that there will be. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. May I suggest to the honourable me mber that the answers he' s giving ha ve a tendency to provoke debate, and I suggest that this is not the particular time to be inviting debate. We are here to elicit information during the Question Period. The Honourable Me mber for Inkster. MR . GR EEN: Mr.

Speaker, I note that the honourable me mber is refusing to answer as to how much the public treasury and public wealth is being benefited by the state, by the public involvement. If, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the Minister's rema rks that we did not discover a teacup, is it a lie, as reported by Manitoba Mineral Resources Limited in its annual report, tabled by the Minister yesterday, that the company had oil income totalling $1 5,668 from its interest in five wells jointly with Barrie Petroleum Limited, and four wel ls with Copperhead Oil Company, and income and total production of 3,124 barrels of oil resulted in income of $3,493 in addition to that? Is that a lie as reported in this state ment ? Well, Mr. Speaker, is my honourable friend saying that this is not a teacup? MR . CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, in relative terms the answer still stands. But the me mber is ignoring a very extensive program that was undertaken, financed entirely by the provincial govern ment during their tenure, financed entirely by the taxpayer, that resulted in absolutely nothing, Mr. Speaker, and was the subject of discussion and controvers y in this House for many many months. And he ignores all of that. Mr. Speaker, to ge t back to his question with regard s to mining. There is informat ion contained in the report, I believe, in that regar ds with the mining location in the Flin Flon area. He can gain information from that.

Until it comes into further development, the real figures will not be known, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Lac Du Bonnet. MR . USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance just what the position of the govern ment is with respect to the increase of interest rates in the United States, and how that may affect Canadian interest rates, and wh ether or not measures are being planned or undertaken vis-a-vis the Govern ment of Canada , or in co-operation with the Government of Canada, to assure Canadians that they will not be subject to the same interest rate surge that is now occurring in the United States. ? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. - 491 -

Friday, 7 March , 1980 MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, that course is clearly a federal matter, and that decision will made by the Bank of Canada and the federal govern ment. At the present time, there is a 2 percent or so spread between the Cana dian rate and the American rate and the Canadian economy seems to be surviving , and I trust that the Bank of Canada will follow the policy it ha s been following in resisting increase s that will tend to track the American rate. However, they are, I know, watching it very very closely.

There are many considerations that have to be taken into account, and at this point in time, at lea st, we are running that degree below the Am erican rate and we seem to be surviving and perhaps they will continue to do so. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would indicate wh ether or not his office is at least attem pting to convince the govern ment of Canada, and through the government of Canada, th e Bank of Canada, that interest rates should be held down to the extent that it's possible within practical limits? MR . CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, we've been advising the Bank of Canada and the governor of the Bank of Canada of our feelings in tha t regard , which I, in reply to a question the other day, stated that we hope that with it being an inexact science or an inexact art, and if they had to err, for goodness sakes to err on the low side of the interest rate schedule, and they seem to be doing that. Our feelings to them are well-known. We have lobbied them consistently for the last two years in that regard. MR. USKIW: Mr .

Speaker, is the Minister now indicating that the former Finance Minister, who's been defeated in the last election, was wrong in his policy of following the Americ an increases with Canadian increases? MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, again the former gover nment - during the tenure of the former govern ment was the period when the Bank of Canada did decide to not maintain a Canadian rate higher than the Americ an rate, and in fact started the practice, began the practice, of bringing the Canadian rate and sustaining it below the Am erican rate, to the point where it is now at the 2 percent level below, and consistently ran anywhere up to 1 percent or so above the Am erican rate prior to the Clark govern ment in Ottawa. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Elmwo od. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General. Since the government is considering disma ntling the Manitoba Liquor Control Comm ission and all owing sma ller stores, grocery stores, etc . in Manitoba to handle the sale of liquor, has the Attorney-General given consideration to the fact that, should small stores be allowed to sell liquor, that there could be more holdu ps, and that there may be less control in terms of the sale of liquor to juveniles? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Gen eral. HON. GERAL D W.J . MER CIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, the premise of the Me mber for El.mwood's question is totally inaccurate. There is no intention whatsoever to disma ntle the Liquor Control Com mission. The review comm ittee ha ve been requested to consider the advisability or inadvisability of making recomme ndations with respect to revisions of the Act, and procedures under the Act, and regulat ions under the Act, and to take into consideration employee concerns, industry concerns, concerns of the public, trends in other jurisdictions, and to make rec omm endations with respect to that ma tter. There will be a full series of public hearings, Mr.

Speaker, at which membe rs of the public will ha ve an opportunity to express their views, either at public hearings or by way of submission to the review committee, Mr. Speaker, and we'll have to await the results of tha t review which will involve extensive consultation with the public. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for El.mwood. MR . DOER N: Will those extensive consultations with the public also include extensive consultations with the law enforce ment agencies ?

Because it was the head of the RCM P's Crimi nal Investigation Branch who today was quoted as saying that he was concerned about the possibility of more hold-ups in sm aller stores and less control by storekeepers, - 492 -

Friday, 7 March , 1980 should this occur in dealing with juveniles and minors. So I ask the A. G. whet her the RCM P and the Winnipeg Police, etc ., will have an opportunity to have an input into the deliberations? MR . MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, th ere's no question that the concerns of law enforcement authorities in the province will be given serious consideration. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Elmwo od with a final supplementary. MR . DOERN : Mr. Speaker, I would also ask the Attorney-Ge neral if he could ensure, for the benefit of the opposition, that mem bers of the front bench attend Question Period.

Because only a few mom ents ago there were six Ministers missing, now the Premier has walked out and there are four Ministers •.• MR. SP EAKE R: Order please. Order please. May I point out to the honourable me mber as I ha ve recently, it is not proper to make rem arks about the attendance or the absence. The Honourable Membe r f or El mwood. MR . DOER N: On a point of privilege, I do not believe that the me mbers of the opposition can properly perform their function if they are faced with a decimat ed front bench .

And when we have six Ministers missing, and now five Ministers missing, we are not all owed, and are unable to ask questions of the govern ment, and this is depriving us of our right s as me mbers of the opposition. MR . SPEA KE R: Order please. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, I beli eve that the attendance of the treasury bench has been excellent and there are occasions when Ministers have other meet ings, have business of the govern ment to attend to that is unavoidable.

This morning, of course we've had an unusual circumstance in that we've ha d Motions of Condolence go on until sometime after 11 :00 o'clock. There may very well have been meetings that were scheduled for 11:00 o'clock which were made, not realizi ng that Motions for Condolence would go that long and that Question Period would be extended to this time. Mr. Speaker, if there are question that me mbers opposite ha ve, there are Acting Ministers who can either answer the question or take the question as notice and provide the information at the next sitting of the Legisla ture. But overall, I think Mr.

Speaker, the attendance of Cabinet Ministers during Question Periods, has been very good. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Membe r for Elmwo od on a point of order. MR. DOERN: On a point of order, two points. First of all, the Condolence Motions were indicated several days ago so Ministers were aw are of th e procedure, and secondly •.• MR . SPEAK ER: Order please. Does the honourable membe r want to address himself to the point of order? MR . DOER N: I'm atte mpting to. The Attorney-General made the point that the Condolence Motions affected the Question Period.

I say to that that notice was given at least 48 hours ago. The reaso n I raise this ma tter is that as soon as Question Period began, three or four Ministers left the Chambe r and I think that the business of the House, in terms of Question Period, should take precedence over departmental matters. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr . Speaker, on the sam e point of order, very briefly and very calmly, I believe that my appointment book, like other Ministers' appointments books get filled up long before 48 hours ahead of time.

I happen to know that there are some Ministers that have kept people who have driven in from the country waiting, and they have gone to see them in their offices. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge. - 493 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 MRS. WF.STBURY : Mr. Speaker, I have a question to address to the Minister charged with responsibility for the Manitoba Hydro. It's regarding the $750,000 set aside for a study of the Burntwood River Hydro proposal. When will a consulting firm be appointed to study this plan? I understand that this appointment has been delayed from month to month. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the Hydro utility has indicated that it is going to undertake these studies. That has been announced publicly.

When they may select the consultants for it is best known to the Utility Board itself , and I suspect that there will be opportunity for the me mber to address the question to the Hydro utility when it appears before the Public Utilities Committee. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, at what stage in their deliberations will the govern ment require the consulting firm to consult the public, including the nat ive population, and can we assure that any consultation will take place before one of the five sites is selected? MR . CRAIK: No doubt, Mr. Speaker.

Apart from the consulting work that the utility may embark upon or engage in, there will be involveme nt through the Clean Environment Comm ission as well, and there will be plenty of opportunity for public input . MR S. WF.STBURY: Mr . Speaker, on another matter, I have a question for the First Minister, which I'll address to the Deputy Premier, if that's the correct title.

In view of the statement made by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs at a meeting with the Morris Mc Donald School Board in January to the effect that houses in town and country should be levied for education taxes as they are in the city of Winnipeg, of course, and in view of the silence on the part of the Chairman of the Assessment Review Commi ssion on what is coming out of his Commi ssion, can we assume that this gover nment policy will be part of the report by the Assessment Review Commi ssion? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I know that that cannot be assumed, but since the me mber has addressed the question in general, I'll take it as notice for either the First Minister or the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for Transcona. MR . PARASIUK: Thank you. My question is directed to the Minister of Health. Can he confirm that the gover nment has turned down a request for capital funds for this fiscal year for Mount Carmel Clinic ? MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. R. (Bud) SH ERMAN (F ort Garry): Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR .

PARASIUK: Can the Minister indicate if funds are being provided in the capital program, future capital program for health facilities in Manitoba for Mount Carmel Clinic , or are funds only being allocated in the future for hospitals as opposed to com munity clinics like Mount Carmel Clinic ? MR . SHER MA N: Mr . Speaker, there certa inly is no discrimination.

If the honourable me mber is inquiring as to whether there is, as betwee n Mount Carmel Clinic and conventional com munity hospitals, where the capital program for the Manitoba Health Services Com mission is concerned, we were not able to acc om modate Mount Carme l's request at this point in time in terms of priorization, but certai nly their request and their leg itimate am bitions remain under consideration by the govern ment for future programs. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Me mber for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, in view of the fact that the government has obviously over-budgeted for personal care homes and hospitals in the Lundar-Ashern -Eriksdale area to the point that the local hospital board Chairman has said that the govern ment wants to push - 494 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 unnecessary beds in that area, would the gover nment rec onsider its position with respect to funding of some of those facilities which the local people say are somewhat over-budgeted, and use some of th e funds saved to provide for the capital facilities for Mount Carmel Clinic, which has been serving the commu nity well for a great number of years ? Would you do that for this fiscal year? MR. SHER MA N: Mr. Speaker, the short answer is no.

The long answer is that I dispute, in fact I reject the suggestion by the honourable me mber that we have obviously over-budgeted in terms of personal care beds in the Interlake. That question has been in some considerable discussion and in some considerable dispute. It was not the Chairman of the Board who said that the. approval offered by the gover nment was unnecessary. Certa inly a spokesman for one sector of that district system has suggested that; there are others who suggest quite the oppsosite. MR . SPE AKE R: The Honourable Membe r for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCH ROE DER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question of the Deputy Premier.

In view of the pronounce ment by th e Premi er this morning that we now have a govern ment which is a govern ment of empirical pragmatists, and in view of the fact that last night there were a number of mee tings throughout the city of Winnipeg at which teachers stated to concerned parents that there were problems with respect to crowded classroo ms, with respect to loss of special programs, with respect to sharing of programs between schools and the busing that that will cause, and the loss of individualization as a result of the lack of funding by the provincial gover nment to the city, can the Minister advise the House as to whe ther something will be done before the board meeting of next Tuesday by the provincial gover nment in order to assist the city of Winnipeg school division to alleviate these serious problems?

MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, there are serious adjustments being experienced by the school divisions, but I have to indicate to the me mber the same reply that has been given by the Minister of Education in this House on a numbe r of occasions, that the first line of exami nation and discussion is at the level at wh ich it's now taking place, and that is at the school board le vel. That is what school boards are created for, and that is what they ha ve done their job at for many, many years.

This isn't the first time we've had adjustments of a serious nature that have had to be undergone in the school systems. While Division No. 1 is the largest division by far in the province, the problems that they are facing, Mr. Speaker, are of the same nature that has been faced by all of the school divisions right across the province for many, many years. There is no doubt that the demographic shifts that are going on and the reduction in school population are causing problems. Mr. Speaker, I read just rec ently where the city of Calgary had faced the problem of closing seven schools in their downtown area. Mr.

Speaker, there isn't a city in Canada that is not experiencing the kinds of problems that are being addressed now by School Division No. 1, and in fact, by, I would think all of the urban school divisions, by having an expanding suburb and a contracing inner belt. That has to be done, Mr. Speaker, and that includes the transportation problems refe rred to by the Member for Rossme re. My own school division went through the same battle over the last five years of the busing from one area to another to try and help solve its problems. They are all going to have to wrestle with the same problem MR.

SCHR OEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A suppleme ntary question. It is my understanding that the Winnipeg No. 1 School Division is not in a position where they are discussing prelimina ry budgets. They are talking about the actual budget this coming Tuesday evening, and in that budget there is a cut of 1. 9, or an addition of 1. 9 students per teacher, at a ti me of declining enrolments because of lack of funding by the provincial government.

And in fact, the Teachers Association is claiming that the provincial input into education is going down in percentage terms, and that the percentage of provincial income going into education is going down at this time. There fore I am asking the Minister whethe r at least the government could send someone down to that meet ing and listen to these people, listen to their problems. I und erstand that nobody showed up last night at all of those meetings throughout the City of Winnipeg from the government. - 495 -

Friday, 7 March , 198 0 MR . SPE AKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRAlK: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education has already addressed this question in the House. I would like to add, though, what appears to ha ve been overlooked, that in addition to the direct grant increase that was announced by the Minister of Education of course, there is als o an increase in the total am ounts of moneys being distributed by way of the school tax, the property tax rebates, Mr. Speaker, that have also already been indicated in the Estimates.

I think, perhaps, that by th e time the two of them are added togeth er, the public school system, with the acce ss they have through their regular taxation flexibility in their own mechanisms, are in a position where they can wrestle with their difficulties, probably as we ll as any other level of govern ment can. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Vital. MR . JAM

E) D. WA LDING: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Acting First Minister, who is the Acting Minister of Education today? Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question, then, to the Acting Minister of Education, and point out to him that I've asked a question of the Minister himself on two occasions as to informat ion specifically as to the value of the Foundation Progra m to Winnipeg School Division No. l. I wonder if the Acting Minister could give me that figure? MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minister without Portfolio. HON. EDW ARD McGILL (Brandon West): Well, Mr.

Speaker, if indeed the me mber has addressed this question to the Minister of Education, rm sure he has taken this under consideration. But, from the explanation which the Member for St. Vital has given me today, it would indicate that it is a mat ter that could very well be considered and discussed when the Estimates of the Department of Education are considered in com mittee, and I would suggest to the membe r that those Estimates will be before the Commit tee of Supply in relatively short order, so tha t he will ha ve that opportunity then. MR. WAL DIN G: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker .

I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Education whether that information as to the dollar value of the Foundation Progr am to Winnipeg No. 1, has in fact been commu nicated to the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, given that it will be finalizing its budget, I und erstand, next Tuesday, and could not or will not be in a position to wait until the Education Estimates come before the House. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, rm not able to com ment specifically as to whether or not the information relative to the Foundation Grant to Winnipeg School Division No. 1, has been discussed directly with that school division.

I will take the question as notice. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St. George. MR . BILLIE URU SKI: Th ank you, Mr. Speaker . I feel like the Jack-in-the-box this morning. Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Health , and I'd like to ask him whether he is prepared to clar ify his state ment that the chairm an of the board of the Lakeshore District Health Board used his two votes to defeat a proposal of his Cabinet to the board, when that statement that the Minister made, both in the numbe r of votes and in the matt er at issue at the board, were both inaccurac te. MR.

SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . SH ERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, what I said was that at a meeting as recently as November or December - and I cannot specify the precise date, but it was in Novembe r or December - when the board met on the issue once again with respect to the govern ment's recom mended position on the development of he alth facilities on the west side of the Interl ake, that the result of the vote of a 12-membe r board was a six-six split, and that , as was his democratic right, and I specified that I recognized it as his democratic right, the chairman of the board had the opportunity to cast a second vote. - 496 -

Friday, 7 March, 1980 MR . UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister chec k that the chair man of the board did not, in fact, cast two votes; he did cast the deciding vote with respect to breaking the tie of the board in question, but that the chair man of the board has not two votes. He has one vote as any other me mber, and he cast that vote in breaking the tie of the board ? MR. SHER MAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable me mber is asking me whether I can che ck that. Cer tainly I can check that.

My state ment is based on information that was conveyed to me with respect to persons in attendence at the meeting and concerned with the issue. I made it in good faith. Certainly I can check it, but it's my understanding that was the situation. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Membe r for St. George with a final suppleme ntary. MR. UR USKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister provide to this House an assessment or an accounting that should be available at the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission of the additional costs that will be incurred should the present Cabinet proposal be accepted by the District Board, the additional costs being of the service that will not be provided by the hospital that is in the area - the additional bussing costs or am bulance costs, and the additional costs in running the facil ity? Could he provide those costs to this House, Mr. Speaker? MR. SHER MA N: Of course I can do that, Mr.

Speaker, and there is no doubt that I will do that , that it will be debated at some le ngth in my Estimates. At that point in time, that information will be made available. I want to specify for the benefit of the Honourable Member for St. George, and so me of his colleagues, who seem to have taken a vocal, if only semi-informed

part in this discussion, that the gover nment ha s ordered nobody to do anything. We are not in a position to order anybody. We wouldn't if we could. What we have done is approved a conceptual course of action. If the me mber municipalities don't want to follow that course of action, they're under no obliga tion to do so. MR. SPE AK ER: Order please. The time for Question Period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day. OR DERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Attorney-Ge neral. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTIO N presented and carried , and the House resolved itself into a Com mittee of Supply with the Honourable Me mber for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower, and the Honourable Membe r for Virden in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General. - 497 -

CO NCUR RENT COM MITTEF.S OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -A TTORNEY-GEN ERAL MR . CHAI RMAN , Mr. Morris McGre gor (Virden). MR. CHAIRMA N: I call the Com mittee to order and I migh t re mind all me mbers at that last night's meeting the Chair felt a little bit concerned with the discipline and I would just like to address it to each me mber: When you do have the Chairma n's eye and you want to have a further supple ment, show him, because I am trying to reac h not knowing, and if you are finished, then I want to look for someone else.

To give the Chai r a little more of a break on it, I hope not to have to do any more, but it might well be some time in the future we would have to ask each me mber to stand, be cause that would clearly, because if you look down he re, the hands are everywhere. Cle arly signal if you ha ve got the Chairman, and you want to follow it up. The Member for Wolseley. MR . R. G. (Bob) WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to raise what I consider is a matter of personal privilege.

Yesterday, the Me mber for Wellington accused me of abusing the privileges of the House and I was hoping, as I say, to share one or two of my personal experiences with membe rs of the Com mittee so that future generat ions, and those coming up behind me, do not sort of lose their rights and privileges. It was never my intention to discuss my case, it was only the present policies which need, in my opinion, an overhaul.

And I suggested that the mem ber certa inly offended me in many comm ents that he made, and I think I probably precipitated that by sort of insulting a couple of mem bers of his legal club by demanding that they be questioned for perjury and be investigated. So I really think that the record will show --(Interj ection)-- Well, th e mem ber raised experiences about his clients in front of this Comm ittee. He talked about cases that he had.

And, you know, the mem ber is the last one to talk about privilege, be cause when he was a mem ber of the City Legal Department, he turned over a privilege file which involved me to Robert Matas of the Tribune, and as a resident of Wolseley, he is the hatchet man for Professor Mills, the new NDP candidate. And I suggest that the Member for Wellington should ref rain from insulting me in further deal ings in these particular Estimates. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 16, 2.(b) (l ). The Member for Wellington. MR . BRIAN CORRIN: Get ting back to business, Mr.

Chairma n, during the past year we have had cause to be concerned, I think, about the disclosure of the na mes of accused. Several prominent people in the Manitoba com munity ha ve been involved in cases which have resulted in a great deal of public em barrassme nt. It certainly has made them the focal point of a great deal of attention, and I think what that has done is precipitate a re-ev aluation of the propriety of disclosing names prior to an accused person being convicted in the courts. Just generally, I would ask, through you, Mr.

Chairman, that the Attorney-General provide us with his opinion relative to publicati on of names in order that the Com mittee have an opportunity to discuss this matter in some detail. MR . CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairm an, let me say firstly that there is, as the me mber is well aware, no law at the present time which prohibits publication of the na mes of persons accused of crimes.

What was started last year under the Federa l Attorney-Genera l was a major review of the Criminal Code of Canada through the Federal Law Reform Commi ssion, and in close consultation with the Provincial Attorney-General's Departments. The election, of course, intervened and I don't know that the new Attorney- General of Canada will be pursuing that - I would hope that he would.

What the me mber raises is a very difficult question, but I think I would be inclined, if he wishes to know my personal view of the matte r at this time, that I would not be in favour of bringing into law a law wh ich would prevent disclosure of the name s of persons until their cases are disposed of. - 498 -

Friday, 7 March 1980 MR . CORRIN: Just a matter of clarification, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. I am not sure which side he took. Could you just say whether you feel that there should be disclosure of names prior to a conviction or that you feel that should be withheld until after the conviction? MR . MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, at the present time I would be in favour of the present system. MR. CORRIN: In that regard, Mr. Chairma n, I suppose it is encumbent on us to discuss the reasons for that.

It seems to me that there are pros and cons on both sides of the argu ment and it is a question, I suppose, of wh ether you wish to fall on the side of social rights, collect ive publi c rights, or individual liberties. On the one hand, Mr. Chairman, I would indicate that I feel that it is manifesting justice to people before the courts to ha ve their names published prior to conviction without their permission. On this point, Mr. Chairma n, I would like to be clear that I feel that the law should be reformed insofar as names should not be published prior to conviction without a person's consent.

Certainly people like Peter Trew - I use him as an example - would obviously wish that there criminal proceedings be held publicly. They wouldn't - people charged as Mr. Trew was obviously would want the public to be aware of the f act that charges were pending and want the advantage, the benefit of having their charges laid open to public scrutiny. On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, I would postulate and submit that it is often of tremendous impact to an individual to have his or her name published in the press respecting the laying of ch arges.

As we all , know not all peop le who are charged -and we had an exam ple yesterday, I think a rather dramatic example, in the McGay College case involving Mr. Dragan, who works for the govern ment and who sat on the Juvenile Justice Com mittee - not all persons who are charged are guilty. Just a short while ago, the Minister saw fit to appoint this individual, Mr. Dragan, to a very important justice com mittee in order that he give assistance to the Minister and the government in the formation of rec omme ndations respecting mat ters of justice policy.

Now I suppose, in re trospect, it's obvious that a person who otherwise is of good character, other wise well thought of in the community, has been subjected to personal em barraS">ment , humiliation. Mr. Chairma n, I don't want to interrupt the flow of ideas as between the respected membe rs, but I would indicate that it's difficult to speak when there's such an uproar. So, Mr. Chairma n, I would submit that there are obvious exa mples of people whose lives have been irre parably damaged as a result of the publicati on of their na mes prior to the determ ination of their prosecutions. I also am cognizant, Mr .

Chairma n, of the age-old argument that the public must ha ve a right to know, because otherwise membe rs of the public would be in jeopardy. A person who is accused of a serious crime could be on the streets, and we should all know that person is possibly an immi nent threat to our well-being. Well, Mr. Chairman, I've always been of the view that's the responsibility, th e protection of the public is the responsibility of the judiciary. That's what interim judicial release or bail procedures are all about.

The judiciary undertakes to appropriately set preconditions for a person's release in order to assure the security of the gen eral commu nity. So, I don't think in these times, that's a relevant argu ment. A se condary argu ment, I suppose equally important to many people in society, is the right of membe rs of society to ha ve all business of the state conducted above-boa rd and in full public view. Well, as I stated earlier, Mr. Chair man, it seems to me that individual liberties could be a matte r of indivdual conscience.

If the law was appropriately reformed to make provision for individuals to waive their right to privil ege an d secrecy, rather tha n simp ly ha ving this public overview im posed on them. on them. So it seems to me that we could enshr ine in law the opportunity, give the opportunity for an individual to determine his or her own fate, to determine whethe r or not he or she wishes to make known to the publi c the fact that he or she is the subject of a prosecution in the courts. But, Mr.

Chai rma n, having spoken to those conc erns and those issues, I don't understand, in these days of mass media - and I stress that we are living in highly tech nological times when the im pact of publication is very different than it was when these . matte rs were first considered and enshrined in our law. When we spoke of these matters as a society 100 years ago, mass media technologoy was unknown. Sure, a person could come down to the courthouse and check the public rec ord and determine whether or not John Sm ith or Jane Doe - 499 -

Friday , 7 March 1980 was the subject of a criminal prosecution. But obviously, it was unlikely that was going to happen, and gener ally , only people of a very serious mind who had good reason to do so would make such a strenuous inquiry. But today, Mr. Chairma n, we live in a very very different world. We live in a world where, because of televis ion and the mass circula tion of mass print media, the news of such a charge can be sent around the entire country in a matter of hours. The Bill Guest case probably was the most notable example this year, Mr. Chairman. I th ink it really underscored the impact of the present state of law. Mr. Guest was not even charged by the Crown. It was

an act of negligen ce,

an act of ommi ssion on the part of a police officer who zealously undertook to trans mit some file documents to the adm inistrator of the court office. So Mr. Guest, as a result of the ne gligence of one person, found hi mself on the front pages of all the newspapers in this province. He found hi mself the subject of news repo rts on televis ion and radio. He's a wel l-known person. Obviously, his livelihood is dependent on his reputation in the com munity insofar as he is a public personality. And, Mr. Chairma n, Mr. Guest was, I'm sure, unnece ssarily and greatly em barrassed for nothing.

Sho rtly thereafter , it was determined that the Crown, I believe, did not wi sh to proceed. A stay was granted. There was no substance or foundation to the laying of the charges. Yet unnecessarily he had to face that. And I think we can all appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that it's a very serious matter. There are people in our commu nity, good people in our comm unity, who do indeed value their re putations, and don't wish those reputations to be the subject of public discourse and controversy. And you know, Mr.

Chairman, the other argument is, if a man is not guilty and he' s acquitted, or if he receives a stay of proceedings and the Crown discontinues the case, that's sufficient. That in itself will establish, to all right-thinking people that the person was indeed innocent. Well, Mr. Chairma n, after ten years in the profession of law, I can say that that is purely nonsense. I have represented clients who have been the subject of publicity , and I can tell you that it doesn't work that way.

I have represented men who have lost their jobs as a result of em ployers who felt that it was too em barrassing to continue their association in their firm. I think notably of one client I had about four or five years ago who was charged with indecent exposure. He was a salesman for a la rge Winnipeg firm. He was very well known around the province. He had three children. It was a very very serious matter. It was very em barrass ing. His name manag ed to find its way into the newspapers. I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, that his employer didn't even wait for the trial. He didn't even wait. He sacke d him.

That was the end of it. He told him that he couldn't expect any of his clientele to deal with this person, and even though he was sure that he was innocent and that it was all a big mistake, mistaken identity and so on, tha t he couldn't jeopardize the future of the firm and the reputation of the firm and lose the clientele to the competition. And that's realistic, Mr. Chairman, I can understand that. Sal es, for instance, are co mpetitive. It's impossible for somebody to be expected, to be able, to tolerate that sort of situation. We all know that it takes months be fore a case is even dealt with in the courts.

At the very best now, a contested trial, even if a person is in jail, takes five months. Here in the Winnipeg Tribune, Wednesday, March 5th, a few days ago, here's a man going before one of the County Court Judges in Winnipeg, spent five months in custody. I shouldn't mention his na me, bu t his na me was already published. This man , a young man of 26 years of age, was sentenced to a day in jail for possession of stolen property. He had originally been charge d with robbery, a very serious indic table offence.

It was armed robbery , as a matter of fact, involving two marked, armed gunmen who are alleged to have perpetrated an afternoon robbery on October 12 , 1979, involving $1 5,000 in cash. I wish to note that the rec ord should show, and it does, that both charges were dropped. Yesterday night we discussed overcharging and plea barga ining. Well, here we have a case wh ere the Crown took a guilty plea to possession of stolen property, which is a mi nor charge compared to armed robbery, and they dropped the very serious charges of armed robbery. As a matte r of fact, the Crown Attorney, Mr.

Kaplan, it says, told the judge that evidence from the preliminary he aring against the accused failed to directly link him with the holdup. So he spent five months in jail because he couldn't afford to put up the cash bail that had been required. And after all that, was never found guilty of the serious charges originally laid, entered a guilty plea to a lesser charge - and I'm sure the reality was to get out of jail, because his lawyer probably told him that if he entered the guilty plea to a minor charge that aft er five months in jail he'd be on the street in 24 hours. And that' s not uncommo n, Mr.

Chairman. - 500 -

Friday , 7 March 19 80 Bu t the point is that here was a man whose name was probably published in the paper as being an arme d robber, a very serious thing; a man who, using a shotgun, held up a business. And now he's on the street, and he entered one plea to possession of some stolen property. It could be anything. It could be a radio. A transistor radio worth $10.00. But he sat in jail for five months pending that. So, getting back to the original point, Mr.

Chairman, I don't see in these times of mass media penetration, that it's equitable or fair to membe rs of society that they should have im posed on them this burden. It seems to me that prior to the conviction of an accused, an individual should ha ve the right to ha ve, if he wishes, if he or she wishes to have a privilege respecting the publication of his or her name, it does nothing to the state of our justice system, it does nothing by way of contributing to respect for the law, to ha ve mass media publication prior to trials. The last point I want to make, Mr.

Chairman, it just occurs to me, the Attorney-General might say , well, you know, it's the right of people to know what goes on at trials and the public should be able to be informed of the progress of trials . Well, rm not suggesting, Mr. Chairman, that that isn't the public' s right . And I'm not suggesting that the media should not be all owed to be present at trials and publish details of trials . rm just suggesting that it's unnecessary for them to publish the na me of the accused.

You can tell all about a charge , and all about the conduct of the prosecution and so on and so forth and where it took place, and the details, and who is alleged to have been shot, or who was alleged to have been banged over the head, and so on and so forth , but it's in my opinion, wholly unnecessary, prior to a conviction, to publish the ind ividual's na me. I think I would go further and say that there should be no publication until the time for appeal has been expired. Because even there, Mr.

Chairman, there have been serious situations arising where people's na mes weren't published when they were charge d, but were published when they were convicted, and then a few weeks later they launched an appeal, and at the end of the appeal, they received their acquittal. So even there, there is a bit of ha voc that's been played with respect to people's li ves. As I have said, I would ask the Attorney-General to provide some response. I think I have attem pted to be as candid as I can and disclose the position I personally take.

I don't represent it to be the position that's taken by all me mbers on this side of the table, but they can speak their own minds, I think they should. I think it's an im portant subject and one that's long overdue for public discussion and review, particularly if th e Federal Law Reform Comm ission is now engaged in a general review of this law. I think it is im portant that the gover nment of Manitoba make known its position to the Federal Law Reform Com mission in order that they have some idea, some feel, for the position taken by representative people in the various provinces. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Attorney-General wh ether he can state for the re cord why he feels that there should be publication of na mes on the laying of charges. MR. CHAIRMA N: The Me mber for Wolseley on the same subject. MR. WIL50N: Yes, on the same subject, I ha ve a different slant. I believe we should give the names. I real ize it is a sort of frightening and very unhappy experience, but life isn't easy at the best of times. I think possibly the different slant I ha ve is maybe the re-education, if I can use the word, or possibly the enlighten ment of the Crown and mem bers of the Minister's staff.

For instance, if you had staff meetings and they were to be assured that all of them had a "University of Life" degree, that they ha dn't had a sheltered existence, that they would visit prisons, and know wha t happens to people that they do accuse, so that if we are going to go along with and deny the people out there, the public, through the impact of publication, the right to know, then if I was to slightly agree with the Membe r for Well ington I would say that it would have to be, in my opinion, a categorization of the charge s.

In other words, I could see maybe wh ere in some case of say a financial dealing that was not a crime of violence, maybe a comm ercial fraud or maybe an income tax evasion, or maybe something such as leaving the scene of an accident or impaired driving, maybe that type of thing should be categor ized so that that could be kept out, that that is the half-way point I might consider --{Interjection)--.

Well, maybe I haven't got them all correct, but it would seem to me that the ban at the preliminary hea ring , which is in place now, it rea lly only see ms to favour the extre mely wealthy or the people that know the score. First offenders and people that have ne ver been in trouble and people that are poor don't seem to enjoy the privilege of having their na mes not printed. - 501 -

Friday, 7 March 198 0 I would like to say that I have a pearl of wisdom here by the late J.

Edgar Hoover, at least it is attributed to him, it is called "Rules of Investigative Work" and it says, "The Crown should strive diligently to secure the evidence to free the innocent as well as convict the guilty." He has got about ten points, I won't read them all, but I have copies available for anybody that might want to use that type of pearl of wisdom to maybe have the Minister continually have his staff, wh ich is changing constantly, ha ve this type of overview, be cause maybe the chap is a young lawye r just gra duated, and it is common knowledg e that the people sometimes work for the Crown for several years to gain their experience and then go on.

It is sort of like on-the-job training or a Masters Degree or whateve r you want to call it.

But I can't help but think, talking about releasing na mes under this Section, it brings to mind the Jordan case down in Toronto wh ere this particular me mber of the leg al pro fession, a Malcol m Robb, a lawyer, seem ed to be a 20th Century pupil of this Lord Braum there, this fello w who was a real hatchet man in the 19t h Century, who said that by all means and at all ha zards and costs to other people and persons, and in performing this duty he must not reg ard the alarm , the torments, the destruction, which he may bring upon others.

In other words, in that particular case they alluded to this woman's personal life, true or fals e, no matter how tenuous, in order to ge t his client freed. Now apparently that is an accepted matter, that in the case of an accused, a lawyer is sort of a gun-for-h ire and he doesn't question, he does the best of his ability to get his client off.

However, I think it is incumbent upon the Crown to make sure that thei r lawyers are well educated in the ways of life so that they don't go about possibly - the concerns expressed by the Me mber for Wellington that they do jump the gun in very thin situations and have na mes printed of prominent people, people who are sales men, people who are heads of fa milies, the breadwinners.

I think at some point in time that there may ha ve to be considered, and I say I know it is being considered in some states south of the border, that in som e cases where it has been suggested by a judge that the case was frivolous or vexatious at best, that maybe the Crown at some point in time is going to have to com pensate these people for loss of income for having been fired f rom their jobs and having the bank re move their line of credit and the mortgage com panies and so on and so forth.

One has to some day have a book written, and maybe Morton Shulman can write it, or somebody, in which the life of an accused can be well documented so that the gen eral public, who has no dealings with law enforce ment, maybe only once or twice in their entire li fe - I am talking about the la rge majority - that I think at some point in time the life of the accused person, and I couldn't agree with the Me mber for Welli ngton more, that people don't wait for the trial, and that gentle man who lost his job as a salesman probably no doubt has to uproot his fa mily and move to another city.

I just wanted the Minister to get a different slant of what I consider may be a re�ducation , a "University of Life" degree for his staff. MR. CHA IRMA N: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns on the same subject. MR . CHER NIACK: Mr. Chairman, it is on the same Item, and it is periph eral to the subject that has been raised, but I want to speak anyway on that and then develo pment. I think it is an extensive debate that will ha ve to continue on the question of publication.

I don't know wh ether there is going to be a solution today, this morning or this year, but I think it is an im portant subject that should be exp lored and this may well be the proper arena where there is give and take. I want to hear more about it. fut the periph eral thing is the responsibility of the Attorney-Gen eral's Departme nt to make sure that there is no poorly prepared case, wh ich would expose a person in advance to adverse publicly and then falt er. I ha ve not att ended this Comm ittee meeting until now and I am not aware whether there has been any discussion about this Hong Kong case.

But what I would guess from the newspapers is that there was inadequate foundation to carry on the trial, and I am not at this stage prepared to lay blame on anyone. But, Mr. Chairman, I am sure blame has to be laid somewhe re, and I think that to be accountable as the Attorney-General's Departme nt, and he must be, there will have to be a report ma de as to what happened in that trial, how much money was spent, and in relation to that , what is the justification for that and how come it ended up with a stay of proceedings?. I think it was stay of proceedings. So that will have to be exp lor ed.

We will ha ve to lea rn about that and learn whether or not there are occasions when there are frivolous charges laid or charges laid frivolously. The case cited by the Member for Wellington, of some officer who usurped his authority, apparently, and laid a charge to great embarrass ment - no doubt as much em barrassment to the Attorney-General's Department as to the person involved - would indicate a laxn ess or looseness that would have to be checke d and controlled. - 502 -

Friday , 7 March 1980 Whilst listening to the honourable me mbers, I jotted down a list of statistics that I would like to hear, and which I would guess would be within the departme nt. I don't even know , mayb e it's been publi shed, but Pd like to list the questions I would like to have answered to sort of measure the performance of the departme nt, and that's why I assumed that the department may well have this informat ion readily av ailab le or could provide it before this item passes. So I am going to read them, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to know how many charges are laid in a period of time, in a month, in a year, probably in a year. How many of those charges are stayed , which means the Crown itself decided, after laying the charge, not to proceed? How many of these charges are reduced by guilty pleas, which means apparently , a bargai ning? How many of these charges have been reduced by decision of the court or the jury? How many of these charges have ended up with a convict ion as charged? How many of them have been dismissed?

That will give us some sense of statistical accountability wh ich we could then discuss, possibly in relati on to other jurisdictions or to Canada itself , and I assume Statists Canada does have some of that kind of information. I would like to know how many decisions have been appealed by the prosecution, and how many have been appealed by the defence. And I would like to know the successes - and they're not alw ays a clear-c ut success one way or another. And in saying that, I'm not looking again to lay blame, but really to assess the overall picture.

For example, somebody - and I am not sure that, I don't re ally remem be r who it was - did some kind of a survey to judge all the different magistr ates, which is not an invalid thing to do, but somebody looked at the appeals from various magistrates by Crown and by defense to try and assess whether the Appeal Court agree d or disagreed with the le niency or the harshne ss of sentences by ma gistrates by name. It's not an improper thing to do, and it may be interesting - not that the Court of Appeal is any sma rter or necessarily more correct than some of the magistrates.

As a matter of fact some day Pd like to make a speech about some of the judgments in criminal cases of the Court of Appeal, and the fact that they sit as a three-man court out of six people. And I th ink sometimes, just like in the magistrate's court, the person who judges, the ma gistrate, some lawye rs try to predict the outcome based on who is sitting as magistrate, who the presiding judge is. So me lawyers would also probably try to predict the outcome depending on which three of the Court of Appeal judges are sitting.

And that may be considered to be unkind, unfriendly and maybe improper, but nevertheless I say it with some amo unt of conviction. So, I would like to know whether the Minister can, be fore this item passes, give us the kind of informati on that I have asked for, and I beli eve that its relevance is justified on the discussion that already proceeded in relation to the na mes of people. Now, I don't know really basically the involve ment of the three people charge d with that Hong Kong affair. I do know that the Crown failed, after laying a charge , and the names of the three people are public.

The y have been found not to be guilty and they have suffered , no doubt they've suffered harm of some kind or other , and therefore Pve come back to that case as an exam ple of the points raised by the two me mbers that spoke before I did, and the fact that I think there ought to be some sort of review of the statistics which would indicate the extent to which the prosecution has been hasty or ill-conceiv ed. I do not want, Mr.

Chairman - and I am sure that there must be information available in the department of the success rate of individual membe rs of the Attorney-General's depar tment - I don't want that at all. And when I said bla me should be laid in that case for example, I don't want to hear that so-and-so in that department, that young lawyer, that me mber of the staff, made a mistake. I want to hear where the mistak e lay, in what departme nt , in what sense it did, and I am wondering the extent to which the RC MP may well be at fault in some of these cases. And I say that without too much respect for the attitude of RC M P.

The ir competence, I think, has been shown fairly well, but I'm not sure that they don't provide a subjective approach to what they're doing. And, of course, my doubts are strengthened somewhat by what we are hea ring from the two commi ssion hearings that are going out in the east on activities of th e RCM P. You know, Pm concerned. Can it be, and I just conclude, Mr.

Cha irman , by saying I recently had an interview with RCMP officers relating to some matter that they're investigating that's well over a year old, and which to my mind was inconsequential, some thing that I, as a lawyer, had some contact with, and I wondered the extent to which their sense of proportion or importance was involved in investigating some thing which I could not quite com prehend in being really im portant. To what extent is the Attorney-General consulted whilst investigations of this type take place ? To what extent is the Attorney-General informed that an investigation which crosses - 503 -

Friday, 7 March 1980 inter national boundaries and oceans, and the cost involved, justify the travelling that must ha ve taken place in order to make a charge? I don't think that people should feel secure just because it's too expensive to prosecute, but there has to be some sense of proportion as to cost, as to re le vance , as to dam age from publicity and otherwise. I'm hoping we can get that kind of informa tion from the Attorney-Gene ral. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre on the same item. MR . J.

R. (Bud) BOYC E: I would like to support very strongly the position of the Me mber for Wellington . We, as le gisla tors, can only discuss things when the occasion arises under the rules to discuss them and this is a question, this publication of people's names be fore they are convicted. In my view as a lay membe r of the public, not as a professional lawyer, I don't think justice is serv ed. It strikes, in my view, at the very concept of equity in law. Even in our own Court of Queen's Bench Act it says that equity shall exist as 18 75, and if law and equity, then equity.

I think that we should continually strive for the broad, philosophical concept of equity. And I do not think that the public wheel is served one whit by persisting in this attitude that the public has the right to know what? - because everyone of the agents in the media put in headlines, the charge, and in the back page, it's just the nature, the very instruments that the acquittals , or dismissals, or whatever, don't get the same am ount of atten tion as the charges do.

This is a subject wh ich has bothered me since, in my view once more, a councillor in the city of Winnipeg because of his ac tions in trying to bring some rhyme and reason to pedestrian traffic, was literally harrassed out of this com munity, subsequently acq uitted of the charges that were laid against him, but nevertheless, the damage had been done. Yet people forget that today in the city of Winnipeg we have crosswalks as a result of this man. I never knew him personally , or his sexual propensities, or anything else. But Mr.

Chairma n, th e very concept that our legal syste m is based on, the concept of habeas corpus, that a person is free, and the only time that we can interfere through our instruments of state, is if we have cause to protect ourse lves and say, this man is classified as somebody who is dangerous to society, that the person shall be free. It's not the proper forum really, to debate this in depth, but nevertheless, I appreciate very much the Me mber for Well ington raising this point because it is a very im portant point. And for people to insist and perist, to continue it, I think is wrong.

The only reason at all for having it, it acts as some inhibitor, I do admit to that, that it perhaps inhibits some people from performing anti-social functions. But that's the only reason. As far as the concept of equity in law, as far as the concept of national justice, I think it's an archaic practice and we should encourage the govern ment to review this whole situation with a mind of bri nging this practice current, and I for one, would support the contention that until a person is classified as somebody who has performed something which is a criminal act, that should not be public information. MR .

CHAIRM AN: Order please. The time being 12 :30, I am leaving the Chair to return at 2:3 0. The Chair will recognize the Me mber for Winnipeg Centre. - 504 -

Friday, 7 March 198 0 SUP PLY - LABOUR AND MA N POWER MR . CHAIRMA N: Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson). MR . CHAIR MAN: I would draw the honourable me mbers' at tention to Page 68 of the Main Estimates, Department of Labour and Manpower. The ite m under discussion is Resolu tion No. 89. 1. (

c) Wo men's Bureau, Item

(1) Salaries--pass. The Honourable Minister. MR . MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, as I outlined the procedure I suggested we follow and I got your concurrence and the me mbers from the opposite, just a brief few words about the division, certainly not in detail. We can go into that as we go through it, the nu mb er of people in, the nu mber of people vacant , that type of thing. The Women's Bureau works with individuals, women's organizations, other voluntary agencies, employers, unions, government departments, schools, colleges, universities and others.

It works to promote greater understanding of women's problems and concerns, and encourages action on them. The Bureau deals with issues relating to education, employment of women, and works for the recogn ition of women's contributions to Manitoba. It offers service to working women in Winnipeg and sou thwestern Manitoba. Numbers of people, Mr. Chairma n: Last year there were 6.26 SM Y's; this year we are proposing 7 SM Y's. At present there is one vacancy which will be posted in the very near future. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Me mber for Ch urchill. MR . CO WAN: Thank you, Mr. Cha irperson.

Well, I think it is appropriate, as we had mentioned earlier during the Ministerial State ments in the House this morning, that we do just reflect for a mome nt on not only the purpose of this particular department , wh ich is a department that the Minister has indicated is put in place to promote and to support women in the ir quest for better conditions both in the workplace and in activities that are supple mentary to their work.

And I think that tomorrow being the International Women's Day - a day when wome n throughout the world take time, along with their brothers, to stand shoulder-to -shoulder to show solidarity, to indicate that they are not satisfied with those conditions that face them now, that they recognize the contributions and the progress that they have made in the past, but that they wish to bring the society further along in what seems to be, does not need to be, but appears to be, an eternal search for more equality, more opportunity for all .

There are a numb er of issues that are currently germaine to the discussion of the Women's Bureau's issues that we understand and we know that women outside of this Legisla ture and inside this Legisla ture are interested in promoting that will hopefully, if pu t into place, if reconciled properly, will enable women to take their right ful place in society. And that right ful place, Mr. Chairman, is shoulder-to-shoulder and side-by-side with men.

You know, it is somewhat of a tragedy that there are only two women that currently sit in this House, and that is not to take anything away from those two fine and capable me mbers, be cause they are ser ving not only their sisters, but they are serv ing all of society as well as their constituents, and they are doing a capable job.

And if we wat ch them, although we criticize from time to time, as is natural when put into a situation and environment stich as this, but when we do watch them, we do know, and we have a vivid demonstration and example that women play as forceful a part, and as strong a part and as productive a part as any man in this Cha mber, and that there is indeed no difference , outside of the physical differences, between women and men, and that we should for that reason alone, that we should stand shoulder-to-sh oulder, and that we should share.

It only makes eminent sense to someone like myself that it is wrong when women are making in their daily work a percentage of what men are making for work of equal valu e, for work of a similar nature, equal pay for equal work, howe ver you want to term the phraseology , and there are subtle differences that we must app ly ourselves to in discussing those specific subjects. But it is wrong, the whole issue is wrong that they should be making less than men when performing essentially the same function. - 505-

Friday , 7 March 1980 But it goes beyond that, Mr. Chairperson, it goes beyond that. The tragedy of the situation, the travesty of natural justice in this instance is not that they are making less right now, but as years go on and on and on they are making less and less and less percentagewise. In other words, we are not closing the gap, we are widening the gap. There is something very basically wrong with a society that allows that process to continue unabated , and that is why we stand here today and discuss the efforts of this department.

And that is why we will stand here in years to come, to discuss the efforts of this departme nt, and in some detail, to find out exactly what it is that that gover nment is doing in their attempts to stop this trend, and their atte mpts to not only stop it but reverse it, because it must be reversed until we do stand side by side, shoulder by shoulder economically.

When we go to work, when the woman marches in beside the man into their place of em ploym ent, whether it be into a factory of whe ther it be into a mine or whether it be into an office building or hospital or any one of the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of industrial situations or employment situations in the province, that they march in knowing at the end of the day and at the end of the week they march out ha ving been paid the same remun eration for their efforts.

Because their efforts are as im portant to them as ind ividuals , their efforts are - I am talking about - th e Minister of Natural Resources asked me what is this "m arch " business. I am not talking about Monday morn ing when we all sort of drag in, I am talking about Friday morning whe n we march in knowing that the weekend will be shortly upon us. But that "aside" ha ving been completed, Mr. Chairperson, I don't want to be distracted from this very important issue.

The fact is that they are putting in the same amo unt of ef fort, but that they are not receiving the same rewa rds, and that is a travesty, that is tragedy, Mr. Chairperson. But it goes even beyond that , because when we watch those people walk in or march in or however it may be, whe n we watch them do that, what do we see? We invar iably see more men than women going in; except for a certain number of isolated employm ent areas , we will see more men than women, and that is not right, that is not right.

It is historical, it certa inly is historical, but it is not corre ct, and that is some thing else that we have to overcome. We have to overcome that segreg ation of our society that differentiates us by sex; it also differentiates us, Mr. Chairperson, by our historical background, where we wer e born, wh ether we were born in northern Manitoba or in the urban centres or the rural centres, there is that sort of segre gation. Th ere is also the segregat ion as to what color our skin may be.

There is all sorts of segregations - as to what our reli gions might be - and they are all unnecessary and they are all wrong, every one of them right down the line is wrong. And that includes the segregation that occurs when women try to enter the workforce. That is why we comme nd the Minister's efforts when he tries to get more women into the trades' area. We commend him. Also, Mr. Chairperson, something we are going to do more a