Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 10

December 4, 1975 Tape no. 327 Page 1 - mw NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Mini ster of Justice): I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, ; "An Act To Provide For The Restructuring Of The Anglican Diocese Of Newfoundland." 6Dd also, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The SuDIIIary Jurisdiction Act;" MR. SPEAKER: Answers to questions for which notice has been given. BON. B. PECKFORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I would like to revert to notices.

MR. sPEAKER: Does the bon. minister have leave to revert to Notices of Motion? It is agreed. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I give aotice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Empower The St. John' s Municipal Council To Raise A Loan For Municipal Purposes Dy The Issue Of Bonds." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER : The bon. Minister without Portfolio. HON. R. WELLS ( Minister without Portfolio): Mr. Speaker, I would like to enlarge somewhat on the very brief answer given yesterday when ·a question was asked by the bon. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan). This concerns the Gull Island project. Since yeeterday, Mr. Speaker, we have had an opportunity to be briefed fully by the member for Nas~upi (Mr. Goudie) and by the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation which, of course, are involved in this matter, and I would like to take a moment, Mr. Speaker, to outline the facts as I understand them, There were three contracts let in the Gull Island area. One was a contract for a piece of road which was let to the O'Connell Company, and that contract we are informed has been completed so that we do not have to concern ourselves with it.

The two contracts with which we are concerned were:

(1) The road contract of Lundrigans Limited, working on the road from Goose Bay to the Gull Island site. 807

December 4, 1959 }!r. Wells, Tape no, 327 Page 2 - mw That contract has been about ninety per cent completed. This is the e!ltimate of Lundrigan!l Limited and also the estimate of the Hydro Corporation. The amount of work that is left of that contract is insignificant, and does not affect, injuriously affect any project that might be going on in the area or any persons in the area. The reason for that is, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a small loop road belonging to Labrador Linerboard Limited which takes in the area which the contract was to - as it were, go straight across.

So the new road was to have been straight across a small piece of territory, but the loop goes around it, so that it still can be used. When the decision was taken by the government to delay the Gull Island project for a year, then, of course, the Hydro Corporation, through the consultants, informed Lundrigans,and I think we must remember also, ~r. Speaker, that Lundrigans Limited were intended and intended themselves to be finished this contract in any event by the 19th of December.

But because of the impending freeze up in Labrador, it was thought wise to bring this matter fully to the attention of Lundrigans Limited. That was done, and Lundrigans Limited are in the process themselves of making arranRements to get some of their equipment out into other parts of Labrador or out of Labrador so that it would not be frozen up all winter and remain idle. So that is the question with respect to the road contract. As I say, nobody is hampered ~r hindred or prejudiced by the stopping of that contract.

It was virtually finished anyhow • With regard to the second contract to Lundrigans Limited was the contract to build the large camps which ~~e necessary in the area. Unlike the road contract, Mr. Speaker, that contract had hardly been begun, It is estimated that perhaps as much as ten per cent of the work had been completed but that is a conservative estimate and it was probably less than that. So that it was felt, and I think wisely, Mr. Speaker, that rather than carry on with that contract and b•Hd a camp which would not be necessary for the coming immediate months, 808

December 4, 1975 Tape no. 327 Page 3 - mw that it was better and adequate to rely on the camps that were already in the area and to defer the construction of the large new campsite until the project is ready to proceed. Otherwise, 809

December 4, 1975 Tape 328 PK- l Mr. Hells: ----- ~lr. Speaker, the camps would be there in the area, built and finished before the project is ready to proceed and would be subject to the usual deter1 oration which occurs ,.men a hun dinr; is not ready for use but has been completed. So it was felt in the interest of the wise expenditure of money that it was better to defer that project until the whole Gull Island project begins to move ahead again.

There is the other matter, of course, which was raised by my hon. friend across the House yesterday, and that is the djsadvantage to business firms and persons who might be put out of work in the area by reason of these decisions. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the government is concerned and cognizant of this. Every effort, of course, has been made and will be made by the Hydro Corporation to ensure that the least disruption possible takes effect.

To that end it is planned by government immediately, and when I say immediately I mean within a matter of three, four, five days, to arrange a series of meetings be~~een government,Hydro and the people of the Goose Bay- Happv Vallev area so that they can be fully briefed on the nature of the delay, the possible expectations as to duration of the delay and also that they can be fully briefed, and I mean both the individuals who may be concerned with jobs, also the businesses which may be concerned with work which would normally come out of this project, so that both,every interested person can be fully briefed not only on the delay of the Gull Island phase of the project, but also on the Phases of the project which will be continuing, namely, the transmission line and the tunnel, and , of course, by transmission line I feel also I should include,and the government should include,the transmission line which is absolutely vital in the interests of the Labrador part of the Province, and that is the transmission line which will go down into Goose Bay-Happy Valley.

So that is the position, Mr. Speaker. And we feel that it would be better for these meetings to take place in Goose Bay-Happy Valley rather than in St. John's. To that end we feel that a number of 810

December 4, 1975 Tape 328 PK- 2 Mr. Wells: high , ranking government people and Hydro people should visit, and will visit Goose Bay after the appropriate arrangements have been made,but within the next few days to give a very thorough briefing on t'Qis whole matter, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: It has just come to my attention that there are seven young students from Grades IX, X, and XI from Francois in the galleries and they are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Hugh McGettigan.

I hope that all hon. members join me in welcoming them to the House of Assembly and in wishing them a stay which will be interesting and instructive. RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR~_!)OODY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I am quite in order or not. I would like to ask the Leader of the House to revert to Order 3, the Presenting Of Reports By Standing And Special Committees, this is the second annual report of the Newfoundland Liquor Licencing Board, - ~EAKER: Does the hon. minister have laave to revert? Agreed! MR. DOODY: - and it is a matter of getting it on the Table.

It answers a lot of the questions, !.think, that have been on the Order Paper about who owns which lounge, and how many have been issued, and what the data and statistics and so on are en the Liquor Licencing Board. And with your permission, Sir, I would like to table that report. 000 MR. NEARY: ------ Mr. Speaker, could I - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. Member for LaPoile. Just a moment please I am not sure whether the hon. Minister was rising on a point of order or privilege or on what. MR. PECKFORD: I was on answers to questions for which notice had been given. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the hon. gentleman have leave to -revert? SOME HON. MEMBER: Agreed. 811

December 4, 1975 Tape 328 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Two oral questions that were !lsked to me a couple of days ago, Mr. Speaker, one by the bon. Member from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) relating to the designer fees on the water and sewer project in Conception Bay South. I would like to table the answer to that question. And secondly, reply, if I may go on,to an oral question asked by the bon. Member for Eagle ·River (Mr. Strachan) I guess, concerning the incorporation of Rigolet.

The incorporation of Rigolet has been deferred until the Spring of 1976 as have all requests for incorporations from around the Province at which time they will be reviewed. Any incorporations that had been committed, those commitments will be lived up to, if you will, but any new ones that were on the board just this year are being deferred until the Spring of 1976. 812 .

necemher 4, 1975 Tape 329 O'RAL OUBSTIONS: MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile (¥r. Neary). IB-1 MJ>. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, I would l:l.ke to put a question to the ¥inister of Tourism, Sir. Would the minister inform the House if 1t is correct or not that the Norma and Glarlys will terminate her voyage at Panama? Hhile the minister is on !'.is feet, "''ould he also tell the House how many ~f the original crew are still on the Norma and r.Jadys, if they will be flown home for Christmas,or if any of them h~tve quit in Panama and come back home?

Just what is the status now of the lonr. voyage, the colorful voyage of the Norma !!_~__i!1_adys? I'T'. SPEAKEJl: The bon. Minister of Tourbm. Hf!. Hir.KEY: l'r. Speaker, - MR. MORGAN: Uere cones a det;dled explanation. ~. HI CKEY : - let me first of all say, Sir, that the voyage is still on - AN liON. ~lJIFR : !lear! "ear! Mr. HICKEY: -bigger and better than ever. SOME RON • ~~BF.l?S : !lear! Hear! ~. PF.rKFORn: Keeping her sails up. MP.. HICKF.Y: I hope to be able to give the House details because I know it 1s a very interesting project to all bon. members especially.

I hope to he able to provide complete details, possibly tomorrow, if not certainly by ~'onday as to the continuation of the voyage and maybe a short progress report to date. lo!ith regards to the other part of the question, I cannot tell the hon. menber exactly - I certainly can check and find out - but I can say, vr. Speaker, that to my knowledge three people that were on board are not now there. One, I recall, came home because of sickness in the family. The other two I would not want to say exactly why they are not aboard, except to say, ~r.

Speaker, that I or any of my staff have no control over wno is on boarc1 that vessel or for how long because that authority , the captain has absolute authority, absolute freedom - SO~ HON. lfffi'BFT:S: Hear! Hear! 813

nece~her 3, 1975 Tape 329 IB-2 '!J'. HICTCEY: - to hire or dis~iss and therefore ~··~ have nothing to C!o ••ith the matter, and certainly we are neveT" going to sugp;est to th<' captll.in th2t he hire someone or keep someone or do anythinr: else. Pe ts in C01111T\Ilnc1 anrl nohocly e 1 se. 1'1'. SPEJ\Y.F!': The hon. mel!lber for 'Rurgeo-Bay n'Espo:l,r (''r. Si!'11110ns). HR. NEARY: What about the ere~·• coming home for rhristl!l:o.s? '!J'. HH'Y.F.Y: ''r. Speaker, I have no knowlec1 ge - HR. Sl'EN<Er>: Order, please! Order, please! The han. member for Burgeo-Bay D'E~poiT" (~r. Simmons) has the floor. W.

SH'l''ONS: Thank you, ''r. Speaker. I have a question f.or the ~'inister of Forestry and Agriculture. T understand that he has recently been Acquainted "Hh the fact that the timber stands in Bay J'l 'Espoir ~·hich are accessible by road to the Conne River mill are limited to the point that, I understand, they Hill run out of timber supply, a cutting supply, within about three months. I believe he has been acquainted with that infonl'ation. I am tvondering if. he could brief the House as to ~·hat 11tep11 hi.s department Hill be takinp: to ensure they have a continued timber supply? f-'T!.

Sl'FAKET': The han. ~'in:lster of Forestry and Ar,ricu1ture. 'fP. POllSSEAH: t•r. Speaker, T had t.rhat T thought was a conficlent:fa] meeting '":i th the Conne ~'iver sawmi 1] enterprises people this rnorning, but, apparently I had not had that confirlential meeting. Fe had a cl:f scussion this morning about it. Some cmest:f.ons were raisecl by the people operat:f.ng the sawmill enterpr1 se and I undertook certain commitments to them that I think at this point in time it is not advisable to make known.

Rut if as the hon. member has suggested they have some concerns about the near term supply of. ••ood, - and J think :fn all of my replies I suggested the te= that I am advised - I never once ~ysel f said that that is the case, and I th:f.nk throughout the whole situation that luts occurred dmm there, that I have always suggPsterl that we think it :fs a successful enterprise. ~~e certainly do not t••flnt to see any term:fmttion of it nor c1 ose clown. r.ert;tin pojnts lo7E're brought to my <Jttention as sup,p;ested by the hon. !"'el'\ber for the clistrict this mClrning. He certainly intend 814

necember 4 , 19 75 'rape 329 IB-3 to check them out. We ~nlJ have someborly go do~~ in the area. And t ma~e the comMi tment to the people this mornin~ that I would be back to thero by the end of next week, obviously to determine 1.ilether or not they have a prohlel'l with regard to immetli~tte supply ot woo<'. So sn~etime hy the end of next week> or sometime during the next ~eek, J should be in a position to tell them. I Am advised that they have sufficient wood down there . They suggested this morning they di~ not.

So, until I have somebody go down in the area an~ meet •-i th them and go in and see just ~mat the prohle!l\ is there , I am not in a position to more fully answer the question. Rut, I will be towards the en~ of next week, by the end of next .. •eek, p<>ss:lbly sometime clur:lnr, the week. 815

------- December 4, 1975. Tape 330 RH - 1 tffi. SPFAKER: The hon. memher for LaPoil~. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice, Sir. Would the Minister of Justice indicate to the House if there is any significance to sending additional R.C.M.P. personnel to Happy Valley - Goose Bay? Why is it necessary to beef up the detachment down there, the biggest in Newfoundland? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. RON. T.A. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I was not aware that there have been any additional men sent to the Goose Bay detachment of the RCMP, but they do not have to consult with me if they want to increase their detachment. May I say that I have had very strong representation during the past two or three years from that area that we should insure that there be a sufficiently large number of men stationed there to look after the policing requirements of the entire area.

The reports that I have received during the past year or so from the former member for Labrador North, Mr. ~~oodward, and from one or two conununity leaders in the area is that the liaison between the RCMP in Goose Bay, Labrador is of the highest calibre and that they are very happy indeed with the law enforcement agency in r~ose Bay, Labrador. MR. SPEAI<ER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the House Leader as a result of his ministerial statement.

Am I correct in understanding that it was Lundrigan's decision to stop the work or terminate the work on the road from Goose Bay to the Gull Island site? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. 1.JELLS: As best I understand the matter, Mr. Speaker, it was the decisions which was taken by the Hydro Corporation but in con­ sultation with Lundrigan's so that Lundrigan's would not be prejudiced and would be given an opportunity to phase down their operation in the area. ~IR. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could the minister indicate .· 81-6

December 4, 1975. Tape 330 RH - 2 exactly or approximately, I guess, how many men have been laid off on that particular project, that is the road project from Goose Bay to Gull Island,and also at the time indicate to the Rouse, Sir, how many people are being laid off as a result of the termination of the work on the cam'Psite of Gull Island? MR. lo/ELLS: No, Mr. Speaker, that is information that I have not got at the moment and I am quite sure we could get it from Lundrigan's Limited as these men would be on their payroll.

Insofar as the road work is concerned, I understand that Lundrigan's had phased down their operation as the contract was nearly completed and should have been completed in any event by December 19th. But I can certainly endeavour to either through the appropriate department or through the Hydro Corooration ask Lundrigan 's Limited if they would supply that figure to us. MR. ROWE: A further supplementary, ~~r.

Speaker: Would the minister while he is doing that undertake to find out how many companies under contract with Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro or associated in anv wav with the Gull Island site, how many companies have laid off men or will be laying off men and how many men will be involved? ~m. >TF:LLS: On a point of clarification, Mr. Speaker. Would the hon. member want me to,or government to draw a distinction in giving the figures between those who would have been laid off anyway and those who may be laid off by reason of the phase down. Is that what the hon. member is speaking of? MR. ROWE: Hr.

Speaker, if I could reply, I think that would be very useful information. Essentially what we are trying to find out is how many people are being laid off as a result of the deferment on the Gull Island project? That is basically what we are trying to find out. How many people are going to be laid off by Lundrigan's or any other company associated with the Gull Island project. And as a further supplementary, if I may, ~!r. Speaker, could I - MR. ROBERTS: Who is asking and who is answering now? Have the two of you settled this out? 817

Oecember 4, 1975. Tape 330 RJl - 3 MR. ROWE: I was just explaining, Mr. Speaker , to the bon. the House Leader what I meant by my question and 1 said that the infor­ mation that we asked for would be useful, an actual breakdown as to who would be laid off anyway and who would be laid off as a result of the termination of the contracts as a result of the deferment of the Gull Island site work.. The supplementary, if I may, Mr.

Speake r, while I am still on my feet is,could the minister also, I guess he would not have the information on hand, find out for the Rouse what equipment is in transit to the Gull Island site? It is my understanding that at least one firm has shipped a considerable quantity of electrical appliances to the site. I:t is in shipment. lvould the minister undertake to find out exa~tly ho'~ much equipment, what equipmen t is in transit or has been shipped to the Gull Island site and what would happen to that during the deferment period? 81~ ·

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 331 tm- 1 MR. WELLS: companies so that we will be able to find out? MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would love to be in the ministry, be a Minister of the Crown to answer the bon. member's question, but privately I would be happy to indicate to the minister the name of at least one company. But I am more iaterested in finding out, you know,what other COW!panies have in fact sent material to the Gull Island site and what is going to happen to that equipment or material or appliances this year or the next eighteen months or twenty-four months or thirty-six months.

Is it a loss of money to the Province? Is Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro going to pay for this material and is it going to deteriorate over the years? MR. WELLS: Let me say in response to that, Mr. Speaker, that there are two positions really involved in all this. One is the legal position between Newfoundland Hydro and any people with whom it may have contracted. If a contract has to be phased down, a contract that has been entered into, well of course there is a mechanism between the contractor and the contractee to sort out this and arrive at any fee or charges or penalties that may be involved.

In other cases of course, it would be extremelv nebulous to determine whether a person in fact had hopes of a job or hopes of supplying something. The bon. member's question, Mr. Speaker, is somewhat vague. I would appreciate it if he could tell us who he is talking about, what business and it would help me very much to - MR. ROWE: Okay. I will do so privately. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Would the minister inform the House if he has yet finished his investigation into why the icebreaker, federal icebreaker, was pulled out of Happy Valley before the CN coastal boats had an opportunity to unload their freight and if so would the udnister tell the House the reasons behind their leaving so quickly? . 819

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 331 NM- 2 MR. SPEA.~ER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ~RGAN: Mr. Speaker, after receiving enquiries from the Happy Valley Town Council and the Chamber of Commerce, Labrador North, my department contacted the CNR to determine if the information that we had received from the residents was correct, that the boats left the Goose Bay area more than half loaded, the Glencoe and the Bonavista. To date we have not received the information from the CNR to confirm this.

We are hoping to get the information within the next number of hours and when we do get the information, if it is correct, my department and myself will be making representation to the Federal Hinistry of Transport to determine why the icebreaker left the area without apparently making attempts to keep the channel open. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the minister inform the House if shipping in and out of Happy Valley is now complete for the year and if it is would thP- minister tell the House how it is going to be possible for LundrigaJs or any other company to get their equipment out of Labrador if shipping is finished for the year? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, these two CNR boats were the last boats scheduled for this Fall to provide boat transportation to the Goose Bay area but the road from Esker Railway Station across to Goose Bay right now can accommodate transportation of goods into the Gull and Churchill Falls and I assume if they do move equipment from the area, if they do, they will use that means of transportation . MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, my learned, my colleague is quite - un-learned, not learned. We are in another forum now.

But my colleague is quite right in that Lundrigans Limited I understand are now in the process of moving some of their equipment across that Esker route. MR. NFARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir, could tell the House if the government intends to proceed with its plan to incorporate the community of Burnt Islands into a 820

December 4. 1975 Tape No. 331 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: local il!lprove111el'lt dcistriet or 11!1 the 111atter beins deferred and what for~~ · o.f JRUDicipal aovermlient will Bumt Islands now have as a result of the goveftlleJlt 'a !leW poliey? MR.. SPEAXER: ~ The hon. Minister of ~i.cipai .lffair~t. 821

December 4, 1975 ~lr. Peckford. Tape no. 332 Page 1 - mw Mr. Speaker, many months ago the people of Brunt Islands requested some municipal status and at that time they were eager to corporate as a Local Improvement District.

As they went down the road towards that kind of incorporation it became evident that not everybody in the settlement or community would be satisfied with that kind of municipal government.And secondly, because of the recently released report on municipal government in the Province, the Department of Municipal Affairs had indicated, by telegram, to the committee who instigated the incorporation that we would not consider at this time incorporating Burnt Islands as a Local Improvement District nor are we in favour of incorporating any other settlements in the Province with that kind of municipal status but rather we would undertake to incorporate Burnt Islands as a town council if and when the proper procedures were carried out by the local residents.

Because a commitment had already been made to the people of Burnt Islands some time ago, long before any new policy of no more incorporations, we would proceed with the proper process having been gone through by the people to incorporate that settlement as a town council. MR. NEARY: I thank the han. minister for his answer, Sir. I would like to direct a question to the Minister without Portfolio, the Government House Leader, in the absence of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Sir.

Would the minister tell the House what action his government has taken to strongly object to the closing of the airport tower at Happy Valley -Goose Bay, if the government has taken any action on this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: I only know, Mr. Speaker, that continuing meetings have been going on between the department and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the appropriate department in Ottawa, which in the case of the '!ower, of course, would be the Department of Transport, the Ministry of Transport.

What stage they are at, that I do not know, but we can endeavour to find out for the hon. member. 822

December 4, 1975 Tape no. 332 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: ~r. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education as a result of an answer to a question that I asked a couple of days ago, and he answered yesterday, where he indicated that the boards have their own regulations with respect to school assessments.

Is the minister giving any consideration to making the regulations regarding the collection of assessments and back assessments, making these regulations consistent with the regulations for School Tax Authorities and, therefore, make people who are being assessed, make the formula more equitable and fair~ Because under the present circumstances I feel that the people who are being assessed are being discriminated against. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the bon. gentleman has already asked the question part. The hon. Minister df Education. RON. W. HOUSE (Minister of Education): Mr.

Speaker, that would require legislation. The legislation states now that the boards may use their discretion in these matters. But we are discussing it with the Federation of School Boards, and hopefully it will be dealt with through these channels. So there are discussions on it. MR.. SPEAKER : The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education, Sir. Would the minister tell the House whether or not the investigation that is being done into the Salt Pond Vocational School is yet complete?

If there is a special investigation being conducted into the affairs of the Stephenville Vocational School or upgrading centre? And if there is a special audit or investigation going on in any other of the vocational schools throughout Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Educatio n . 823

December 4, 1975 Tape no. 332 Page 3 - mw MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know who should answer this, myself or the Minister o.f Justice. There has been an investigation into the Salt Pond School, and the police.investigation, I understand, has been eompleted or just about completed and that is being dealt with by the Department of Justice •. There is another investigation into another school. There is a police investigation into the school in Stephenville, the upgrading school at Stephenville. That is incomplete as yet. HR. NEARY: That is the only other .school? ~. HOUSE: Yes. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, Sir. Would the minister tell the House if his government has taken any action to launch a full-fledged inquiry under the Public Enquiries Act into the transfers of properities in Newfoundland and St. John's especially and in the Province as a whole over the last five years involving second mortgage c01JIPan!es, real estate firms and agents and certain lawyersin downtown St. John's? MR. SPIYU{ER: The hon. Minister of Justice. 824

nece~her 4, 1975 '!'ape 333 IR-1 MT> , RH':TG~AN : No, ''r. Speaker, we have not nor have we seen any evidence ~'hich "oulc'l indicate the broad, S\~eeping statement just made by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile (Hr. Neary). Hay I assure this Rouse that every case that has been reported by the department respons:!t-le for the administrat1.on of the legislation governing the trading of real estate in this Province has been investigated vigorously, and wherever the ev:! cl.ence ~'arrants, prosecutions have been taken ancl will be taken. ~'R . NMRY : Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

Is the minister aware that his own Crown attorney made a public statement to the effect that this fraudulent - ~'P , SPEJ\KF.ll : nrder, please! 0rc'ler, please! I believe the question is now being phrased which would tenc'l to bring in points of debate. ¥!'. NEAP.Y: 1 ~ell, ·~r. Speaker, maybe I can rephrase the question, Sir. Is the minister aware that his own rro~~ prosecutor made statements to the effect that this practice is wiilespread and should warrant an investipat:!on? ~m • J1I CJOIAN : No, ~'r. Speaker, I am not aware of that.

I a~ aware of the fact that the rrown proeecutor 1enjoying freedom heretofor unknown in this Province,did state that other prosecutions may be taken :If the evidence so inil:!cates and that - ~"R. NEARY: He sa:!il the fraudulent practice . was lii'idespread. MR . lUCK Ml: - in his opinion there are two or three cases 1-1here prosecutions tv:! ll be instituterl.

I repeat so that there can be no misunderstanding, that whenever evidence comes to my department~and it does not come to ~e personally hut comes to a Crown prosecutor, that if the ev:!.dence shows that there has been a breach of the law, that without delay prosecutions have been taken and will be taken anrl wil] be prosecuted vigorously. ~m. NEAFY: But who has the onus of responsibility of seeing that the lat< is carrierl out? y.rn, HI~AN : 'J'he onus of responsibility vests with t11e as J'in:! ster of Justice, 1-!r. Speaker. ~!ay I assure this House that it is being discharged 825

December 4, 1975 Tape 333 IB-2 quickly, fairly ;md ~1ithout fear or favour to anvone. Penr! Hear! ''T'. SPEIIKE": The hon. member of Trinity-Bay de ''er,le (¥r. F. Rowe) . ><!'. F. T>f'\HF.: I •mul d l :Ike to eli rect a quest:! on to the ''in:! ster of ~"un:l.cipal Affairs and Pousing, ''r. Speaker. I believe MY colleague, the member for I.ewisporte (>'r. Hhite) on the Order Paper relating to artesi;m "'elJ s, hut I have specific question that can wait no longer.

Is the Minister a•~are of the fact that there are a number of artesian •~ells drilledlpart:lcularly in the d:lstdct of Trinity­ Bay c"e "er,le and T "'ould expect throughout the Provtnce, dr:!J lee' that have a pump install en and a J ight meter installed, but for "'hich there have been no distribution lines lain to the homes, and the peorle have to pay for the light bill but they do not have water cominp. to their hol'les because the:! r nistribution 1 :!.nes are not instal lee'? lire you aware of this? VP. SPF..AKET': The hon. "in:fster of Municipal Affairs ann Housin!!. MT', PErKFnrn: Yes, '-'r.

Spenl<er, I am a•rare that there are quite a few wells arounn the Province, artesian weJJs that are ~r:!]]ed that have no pump houses on the~. I am also aware that there are artesian •·eJ 1 s Cld 1ler around the Province that have pump houses on theM, and other plnces "'•here there are artesian ,,,e] l s drilled with pump houses with p;ut:la] c'istr:l.hntion lines to some of the houses in the comi!lunities concerned. ronseouently 'V.'e h11Ye a substantial amount of mnn~y neec'ec' to either complete pump houses or to begin putting rlistr:lhntinn lines into houses. The answer as to if I am aware of it is yes.

Hhat can be rlClne about it,which could quite concejvably be a supplement..,ry,is that we cannot, we can do very l:ltt]e about it unt:ll 1 97fi tJhen a new capital budget for the lJater services division of the Department of ~'unicipal Affairs is okayed by @:ovemment so that we can go ahead and finish some of the projects that have begun in 1CJ75. ~w. SPF.AY.EP: ~e hon. Mjnjster of Finance - I correct the hon. gentleman - has been indicati.ng for some time that he wishes, I presume, to ask a questjnn. 826

ecember t., 1975 Tape 333 I ll-3 ~. DOODY: It is not really a question, Sir, it is a correction to an answer that I gave the hon. membe:r for Lal'oile(Vr. Neary) yesterc:l .ay. T. think that I missed the - _l"R• NEAP.Y: a mistake. You are forgiven. It is the first time you have made SO~ liON. ~'D'BE;RS: Hear! Hear! 1-m. DOODY: The bon. member asked a ques.tion relative to the situation '<dth the employees at WaterfQrd Hospital and I :tndiel!.ted to him that we had no knowledge to the situation to which he referred. In effect Sir, there are t11'0 separate situations.

One is the collective agreement which we had already entered into with the employees at the hospital. There was an outst~ding question on that on contact pay wh1ch was referred back to the conciliation .board and on which the chairman and his colleagues, 1'r. Easton and his people~ have now reported to government and to the union on, and both sicles are now s.tudying it. I think that this was the report to which the hon. member was referring. I answere ·c:l in terms of another situation at the Waterford Hospital ,,>h.fch is a pensions problem which Professor Dyer 827

December 4, 1975 Tape No, 334 NM- 1 MR. DOODY: has been engaged by government to look into and that one had not arrived on my desk up to that time. I misinterpreted it. MR. NEARY: Does the minister have a report on it? MR. DOODY: It arrived yesterday. MR. NEARY: Is the minister going to table it? }ffi DOODY: Well the minister is going to read it first and then the minister will decide whether - ~R. NEARY: Table it after. MR. DOODY: - he will table it or not. That is one of the prerogatives of a minister. So, Sir, I just wanted to correct the record.

I did not want to have the hon. member feel that I was trving to deliberately - MR. NEARY: You are forgiven this time but do not let it happen again. ~. SPEAKER: The hon, member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. Rm~: ~r. Speaker, I thank the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing for answering my anticipated supplementary and since he has answered it would he now avail himself of the services of Newfoundland Information Services and announce to the whole of Newfoundland that no money will be made available for further distribution - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. ROWE: No, I am serious, Mr.

Speaker, and I will give the reasons. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: Is there a point of order, Mr. Speaker~ MR. SPEAKER: Yes, the hon. gentleman should take his seat, MR. ROBERts: He has called you to order. MR. SPEAKER: The question being put by the hon. gentleman was in my opinion, out of order. MR, ROWE: Mr. Speaker, may I attempt to rephrase the question - MR. SPEAKER: Ask another questionl Yes. MR. ROWE: And I am doing it on behalf of hon. members opposite.

I am asking the question that would the minister make public the statement that he has made here today in order to save a great number of phone calls and letters 828

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 334 NM- 2 coming from constituents with respect to these artesian wells? That is the simple question I wish to ask. MR. WELLS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. member has made a statement here today then it has been made public, There could be no more public place. MR. NEARY: I put a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir. Would the minister inform the Rouse what action the government is going to take on badly needed iaprovements to the cable car across Northwest River? MR. M>RGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am fully aware of the needs for improvements on the cable car after carrying out first of all an inspection by the engineers in my department approximately two weeks ago in conjunction with the inspectors fro• the Department .of Manpower and Industrial Relations under The Elevators Act, and also from my own personal inspection last weekend. I am quite aware of the situation and improvements will be carried out in the near future. SOME ~ON. MEMBERS : Hear! · Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir . MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Education, I understand there has been a fair amount of confusion in education circles as to the implications of the decision not to go ahead with the final phase of the pupil-teacher ratio, the new formula. I wonder would the minister indicate whether there will be any net reduction in the present teaching staff as a result of the decision not to proceed1 !1Jl, SPEAKER: The bon, Minister of Education. MR.

HOUSE: As I understand it, the clause 13 in the regulations governing 1 states something to the effect that until the population goes below twenty-five to one there will be no loss of present staff. That is what I have been saying, Mr. Speaker. I think there is something like 313 pupils less this year than there was last year throughout the Province, Some boards are up and some are down. That clause 13, that has been in effect this past two years. As far as I know it is still in effect. 829

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 334 NR. SH1NON~ Supplementary, Hr. Speaker, in effect the minister agreed that there may be districts which may suffer a net loss in enrollment this year, so that - SOl-IE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~.A!:,LWOOD: Throughout the whole Province. t'R. SI~NS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Do I un,:Iei-s·tand from the min~ter that there will not be any net reduction in the teaching staff thi!! year as a result of the government's decision not to proceed with the final p}Jase as it effects teacher-pupil rat}.o1 f'R. DOODY: The bon. member was - ml.

SPE,AKE·R:_ Before the hon. ininister answers I have to point out that we are il.t the end of the oral .quesU.on period but I do not wish t;o leave the bon. minister in tht:! pos:l.tion there and I certainly would allow him to answer the question. 'MR. HOJlSE: I just want to say that :l.f a board went below its status it will loose teachers, if it went below that twenty-five to one that was anticipated, if it went below that. That is all. MR. SMALLWOODj_ Are tbere £ewer students in the whole Province this year? 83'0

December 4, 1975 Tape 335 PK- 1 MR. H~ Yes, 331 fewer this year than last. MR. SMALLWOOD: In the whole Province? MR. HOUSE: Yes. ~----- MR. SMALLWOOD: In all classes? ORDERS OF THE DAY MR ':.-.WELLS: Order 3. MR. SPEAKER: Order 3 - ComMittee of Ways and Means, the adjourned debate on the sub-amendment. Before the hon. gentleman picks up - I raalize that he adjourned the debate- I was going to ask for the guidance of bon. members in this respect.

Frequently when people are speaking and they get close to the forty-five minutes then whoever is in the Chair obviously wishes to inform them, and one does not like to interrupt in the middle of a sentence and wait for a natural pause and sometimes there is no natural pause or bon. members are being extreme}y fluent. What I was going to suggest is that one of the officers at the Chair would send the hon. member a note to the effect that there was five minutes left. Is that an agreeable procedure? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agreed. MR._ SPEAKER: The hon. Member from LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Would Your Honour tell me how much time I have left, please? AN HON. MEMBER: Fifty. ~· NEARY: No. I got about twenty-five minutes I think. AN HON. MEMBER: Fifty. MR. SPEAKER: Fifteen.! understand. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, when I adjourned the debate on Tuesday,! think it was, there are so many major debates before the House now, Sir, that I do not know if the other members are as confused as I am, but it is a job to keep up with what debate we are now.

And today we are on the sub-amendment in case it escapes members' attention, we are on the sub-amendment to the amendment to the Budget Speech, the main motion. The motion is that we adopt - or that Your Honour leave the Chair and we debate Ways and Means. 831

December 4, 1975 Tape 335 PK- 2 !1!.. __ N~a_ry_E._ Mr. Speaker, again I am - the way that the amendments are being put this session, Sir, leaves a fellow like myself in a very difficult position, because you really do not know whether you should support the amendments or not. I intend to speak separately, Sir, on the amendment that was moved by the Leader of the Opposition and I may be persuaded to support that amendment. I may be.

I have to hear further argument on it but as of this moment I believe I ~rill have to support the amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition, not because I want to, Sir, it is very vague and indefinite, but I will give my reasons when I speak in that particular debate why I am supporting that particular amendment. And I am almost tempted, Sir, to support the sub-amendment because there are so many examples, Sir, of why, in my opinion, the government have borrowed unnecessarily, or,as the sub-amendment states,inordinate swelling of borrowing on the part of the government.

When I first heard that I thought it was some kind of a disease, inordinate swelling. I was going to call upon my hon. friend the Member for Humber East, is it? Or Humber West? Humber East. MR. NEARY: ------ Humber East - to explain to me what was meant by inordinate swelling. I thought it was - the government was getting the gout. DR. FARRELL: ----- There are other forms of inordinate s-.·elling There are other forms of inordinate swelling. Well what part of your anato~y? DR. FARRELL: Around the abdomen. MR. __ N~_ARY_E._ Around the abdomen. DR.

FARRELL: Yes. -------- ~~N~ I could think of another name for it, Sir, but nevert .heless it is a very good description. It is a very good description, Sir, of th.e government's policy that they have had for the last three or four years of borrowing. My hon. friend from TWillingate (Mr. Smallwood) must have stayed awake at night, Sir, trying to figure out the proper wording, and it finally dawned on him something that could really apneal to the news media and to the people of the Province, inordinate 832

December 4, 1975 Tape 335 PK- 3 swelling, and that eould almost apply to anything, Sir, but it is a very good deseri .P.t1oft.. But nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, even thouAh I realize that this goverament has been on a wild spending sJJree for the last three or four years, and that they have refused to eompel Memorial University that is whipping $35 million out of the public treasuey this year. that they have refuaecl to ask the University to ~ive this House a detailed aeeoUQ.t of how they are st~ending tha:t $35 miUicrn. And tbat would be reaaa enough, I suppose, Mr.

Speaker, for voting in favour of the 11111enc$,ment. You know, I have given the House, Sir, all kinds of reasons why they should withhold money ft".om the Universi .ty, . 833

December 4, 1975. MR. NF.ARY: Tape 336 RH - 1 not give them another red cent until they disclose how they spend that money. But nevertheless, Sir, they do not seem to care. They are still passing it over on a blank cheque basis to the university and as a result, Sir, our university this year, so far, have had three convocations, three convocations,and people flown in from all over the world to get their honourary degrees and their honourary doctorates. I remember a picture on the front page of the Daily News of the hon. Premier out in Corner Brook getting his honourary degree.

I do not know what the degree was in. Perhaps my colleague - in law, an honourary degree in law. But what amused me about it was this particular thing he had on his head. It looked like a big, flat cow's dung, Sir, dried up that was laid on the top of his skull. There are people, Sir, in this world who should never wear a hat and I am afraid that the hon. the Premier is one of them. I may get an honourary degree in law, Sir, but I doubt it very much. I have a better chance to get an honourary degree in political science than I do in law. But they had three convocations, Sir.

What a waste of the taxpayers' money, flying people in from all over the world, big banquets, all kinds' of expenses involved to bring people to get their honourary degrees, three. They could have done it in one. They did not have to have a convocation in Corner Brook to open that Regional College. I think they could have managed to get it open without all that extravagance and waste. And that is why I say, Sir, that - you know, $35 million is a lot of do-re-me. It is a lot of francs. It is our money. It is the people's money and the people have a right to know how that money is being spent. Anyway, 1-lr.

Speaker, having used all kinds of reasoning and arguments of ' ~hy I feel I should vote in favour of the amendment, I still find it very difficult indeed to support the amendment because it would handcuff the government of this Province and rob it of the opportunity to exercise its 0wn good judgment in future borrowing, even, Mr. Speaker, if our present load of debt per capita is greater 834

December 4, 1975. MR. NF..ARY: Tape 336 RH - 2 than any other Province of Canada and even, Mr. Speaker, if our credit position in the money markets ·of the world puts us in the position of having to pay higher rates of interest than any other Province in Canada. I do feel, Sir, and I have felt all along that the ousting of BRINCo from the Churchill Falls Corporation was poorly staged, poorly timed an~ resulted in a non-warranted burden to the provincial taxpayer. But, Mr.

Speaker, there is no point in this House or anybody else crying over spilled milk at Churchill Falls or for that matter at Stephenville or at Burgeo or around Conception Bay, with beauty parlors and funeral homes and so on. That milk, Sir, as far as I am concerned is water under the bridge and I hope that now in the closing months of 1975 that the present administration will have learned its lesson and think twice or even a hundred times, Mr. Speaker, before adding another single dollar to the provincial debt. What we have to do now, Mr.

Speaker, is to try and repair the damage that has been done to the credit of this Province, try to repair the damage that has been caused by all the mistakes that have been made by the administration over the last three or four years. And I do hope, Sir, as my han. friend from Twillingate CMr.

Smallwood},that it is not too late to rectify these mistakes, that it is not too late to get our finances back in order, because like the hon. gentleman from Twillingate, Sir, I would hate to see the Province have the doors of the financial institutions of this world, the banks and the bond houses, I would not like to see these doors closed to the Minister of Finance and to the government and to the people of this Province. That is a very great possibility,as my hon. friend pointed out in his great speech the other day. 835

December 4, 1975, Tape 337, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: It has happened before, Sir, and I hope that it will not hapnen aRain, when our Minister of Finance and the administration approaches these financial institutions, that the doors will not be closed tight. But this is a real danger, Sir. And really, Mr. Speaker, it is the only thought that should be uppermost in the minds of all of us in this hon.

House and especially uppermost in the minds of the administration and the Minister of Finance - who is now headed for the elevator ROing back to his office - when they are borrowing and spending at the rate of which they have become accustomed over the past three-and-a-half or four years. Mr. Speaker, the best part of this sub-amendment was not in my oninion the amendment itself but the excellent lesson in economics delivered by the professor himself from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) in introdu 'cinR it, Sir. I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that the 111e111ber1 s combination of eloquence and common sense, economics will no doubt, Sir, affect the thinking of every member of this hon. House, and that it will impress upon the members, whether they sit to Your Honour's left or to Your Honour's right, but especially to Your Honour's left, the need to proceed with caution in the future. The signals are up, the red lights are flashing and the Minister of Finance knows that better than anybody else in this hon . Province. MR. DOODY: I have signed my last note. MR. NEARY: The minister has signed his last note.

He might have signed his death warrant, Sir, I do not know. Well, Mr . Speaker, I hope and I sincerely hone, Sir, that the minister and the administration will PaY attention to the warning that was given by the old professor, the master himself, the former Premier of this Province, the member for Twillingate in that great speech that he made in this hon. House on Tuesday nast. What a lesson, Sir, in common sense economics. I hone, Sir, it did not fall on deaf ears. So with this faith and belief, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the amendment has already served its purpose and that there would be little point, even if such were possible, Sir, that a majority of members of this hon. House would vote in favour of it and thereby handcuff the government in exercising judgement in the interest 836

December 4, 1975, Tape 337, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: of our people. Should however, Mr. Speaker- and this is the note that I am goin~ to end up on and I think this is very important and I hope that ' members will pay heed to what I am sayin~-should however, Sir, the government at any time abuse this responsibility then the people themselves will provide the answer when the Province is faced witp its ne~t provincial election. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Is the House ready for the question put forward in the sub-amendment? MR. J.A.CARTER: Mr. Speaker- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER (Collins): Is the bon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.A.Carter) speaking on the sub-amendment? MR. J.A.CARTER: Yes,Your Honour. HR. SPEAKER (Collins): Agreed, with leave of the House. The bon. the member for St. John's North is recognized. MR. J.A.CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I take it that I am recognized in speaking to the sub-amendment. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I take it that since this is a sub-amendment to an amendment to the resolution we should form a Committee of Ways and Means.

In other words this is the Budget Speech and since the Budget Speech permits very wide-ranging debate I would assume that any amendment or sub-amendment would permit equally wide-ranging debate and therefore, I do not feel constrained to confine myself within the limits of the 837

December 4, 1975 Tape no. 338 Page 1 - mw ~lr. J. Carter. text of the sub-amendment. But first of all, Mr. Speaker, before I get into any formal debate, I would like to congratulate your, yourself, on your elevation to the present office which you hold and particularly I would like to congratulate the Speaker upon his elevation. Unfortunately I was not present when all the members were sworn in • . Myself and the Minister of Provincial Affairs, it is called now, were sworn in together at a later date.

However I would like to say, for the sake of the record, that had I been here at that time, I would certainly have voted for you and for the regular Speaker. I think that the person we have chosen as Speaket will do great credit to this House of Assembly, and I look forward to the day when the public galleries will be filled with people, not coming here out of curiosity, but coming here out of respect. It may be suggested that since we cannot offer the public bread that, therefore, lfe may be offering them a circus. I suggest that there will be no circus here.

There may not be much bread, but there certainly will be no circus. I would also like to take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to welcome my old friends and sparring partners that I see scattered throughout the House - MR. ROBERTS: On both sides. MR. J. CARTER: - and also to welcome my, what I hope will be new friends and new sparring partners on both sides. This House is a very good testi~g ground for those who would like to engaee in public life. Perhaps I should get to the text. The amendment, of course, suggests that, in effect, without going into the wording of it,that the budget is no good, and, _.

I suppose by implication,that the government is no good. And then the sub-amendment,moved by the gentleman whose name escapes me for the moment, suggests that we should not do any borrowing. He suggests that we should throw out the whole thing. Well, I feel that these are excessively simplistic solutions, and I intend to try to look for some more complex approach. Mr. Speaker, every good political speech,or every political speech, or every sp·eech that pretends to be political should have three aspects. It should 83=8

Decembe~ 4, 1975 Mr. J. Carter. Tape no, 338 Page 2 - IIIW find something to praise, something to bl811le and something to view with alarm. Well, in the first place, I am going to find something to praise and what I praise, what I find to praise is this government's attempt to close the gap. We have a budget that- any budget, of course, is just a prediction- but this tries to bring our current acc.ount spending . into line with our cunent account earnings. And I think it shows a willingness on the part of this government to face facts.

Facts are not always very convenient, they will not fit into the proper slots, but I think our government is trying to face facts. I might hope that it would be a little more realistic. I think that this docu:ml!Ilt, this document here, this adjusbnent to l ·ast year's budget, this modification of the bud~et, called the Fall Budget 1975, is a genuine attenq>t to close the gap. But I would like to go on and say that future budgets will not be able to raise very much more in the way of t;axation, that future attempts to close this gap will involve cuts in spending rather than raises in taxes.

I think hon. members, if they will just bear with me while I go through the various major headings of income, will agree with me that we cannot raise much more money by way of taxation. 839

December 4, 1975 Tape 339 PK - 1 ~.!'_._J..:.. Car_ter_;_ To start off with,on pa~e 11 of the Fall Budget the gasoline tax this year, it is predicted that $34 million roughly will be brought in. I think our gasoline tax is now the highest in Canada, it is 25 cents per gallon - On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. ~entleman will allow? ~.___f!RTER_j_-!L;_ Yes, MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, there is too much disturbance, I want to hear what the hon. member is s~ying, every syllable of it,and I am being disturbed by visitors somewhere outside the Chamber.

MR. £.ARTER (J) : I thank the hon. member for his interjection because I ~ finding it equally difficult to concentrate from background noise. The point seems to have been handled by itself. Our gasoline tax is now quite high and I would suggest that it cannot go much higher without causing people to burn less gasoline and to bring in the law of marginal returns. Our retailed sales tax which is nov 10 per cent, although off on clothing, which I would suggest has been a great improvement, is predicted that we will take in $126 million this year.

I would suggest that if the retail sales tax were to go up any higher or if its application were to be broadened we would posAihly take in less rather than more, or certa~nly we would not take in as much more as we would hope to. The next large heading is the tobacco tax, and although one piously hopes that by raising the tobacco tax more people will stop smoking, I would suggest that governments raise to~acco taxes in the hope of taking in more money. But if they do raise the tax further more people will stop smoking - AN HON._MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR._CARTER_(J). - and it will have a negative affect.

AN HON._MEMBER: No,a positive affect. MR • .f!!_RTER (J): The personal income tax I think cannot go much higher without causing people to find it not worth their while to earn the extra dollar and so on and so forth. I think we have almost reached the limit of the provincial sources of taxation. This is

December 4, 1975 Tape 339 PIC - 2 Mr ~-..!!_. __ Carter: perhaps to be regretted, but I think that any future changes in the tax structure would have to be in the line of lowering of taxes than of raising them. These are hard facts. These are facts we have to face. Therefore any future budgetary changes will have to be in the nature of savings, and that is not easy. But I take issue with anyone who suggests that the answers are simple. I am not an economist, but I have had occasion to look at a textbook of economics and the formulaes and the laws that they talked about are incredibility complex.

One of the big factors, of course, is the money supply. Now we do not have a printing press for printing money in Newfoundland, although I think past governments or the former government certainly acted as if they did, and the money supply, of course, is directly tied to the velocity of the rate at which money is spent, If money is spent faster the same amount of money will do more work. Then there is the concept of demand pull, that is to say that if there is increased demand for a commodity this will tend to raise the price.

It is often compared with cost push, which is the theory that if something costs more,naturally more has to be charged for it in order to make the same marginal profit and prices go up. And only this week, Mr. Speaker, a prominent economist suggested that for some reason or other Canadian were saving too much money1 and this might be a cause of difficulty. This struck me as being very odd, but here was a responsible economist suggesting this. Then there is the problem of resourcea 1how plenti£~1 they are, how scarce they are,and more importantly, where they are.

We have discussed the possibility of our woods operations being increased, and from the little knowledge I have of woods work, it is awfully important where wood is, If someone would pay you $10.00 a cord at the stump it might be worth your while to go into logging operation. But when you have to cut it around Grand Falls and bring it to around Stephenville it may juat not be worthwhile even at $70.00 per cord. The biggest 841

December 4, 1975. Tape 340 RH - 1 !!r..:....:!. · _Cart~!'.2. single cost in wood is moving it about. Then another factor, of course, is an intangible is public confidence or public expertation and since all economics really is an attempt to predict lvhat people will do and since people are notoriously hard to predict this just is another complication thrown into the whole formula. I have mentioned the law of marginal returns which is the complication that occurs when you try to raise taxes. And of course, there is the federal deficit over which we have no control.

We can have as many federal or provincial conferences as we like but we are not the federal gqvernment nor do we control the federal government, They seem to go on their own merry way and that seems to apply whichever party is in power, provincially or federally. A Liberal Provincial Government seems to have as little power over a Liberal Federal Government as a P.C. Provincial Government has over a P.C. Federal Government. This is just a sad fact of federal-provincial politics.

Then, of course, there is foreign exchange over which none of us have any control, federal or provincial government~and there is hoarding and dumping,war and peace, war and rumor of war. So anyone who suggests,and I hope no one, Mr. Speaker, in this debate will suggest, that the solutions for our economic ills are simple. They are anything but simple. They are incredibly complex. AN RON • MEMBF.R: And painful. }ffi. J. CARTEF:The hon. gentleman says they are painful. They may very well be painful but they are certainly complex. So, I praise the government for its effort to close the gap. Now, something to blame.

MR. DOODY: Now for the bad news. HR. J. CARTER' Something to praise, something to blame. I blame the mistakes that we have made for the past twenty-five years and merelv to list them is to recognize. One does not need to debate them, they have been debated so often. I will just list them not in any special order. Certain ones hring to mind, like ERGO, that has already been 842

December 4, 1975. !fr. _ J.!.. Carte_r...:_ Tape 341'l RH - 2 discussed here during this debate; Come By Chance, if one is to believe what one hears, the only thing they are able to do is to make crude oil even cruder. There is the Linerboard Mill which costs us, on capital - it is called capital but I would suggest it more like a current account expenses, something of the order of $30 million per year. There was the rubber factory,which mercifully closed.

There was the battery plant and the chocolate factory and then of course there is the Arterial Road which is not adding to our resources or not adding to any solution of our problems. I think it is very, very sad, it speaks ill of a government that will complete an Arterial Road but will not double the size of the existing main feeder roads that bring traffic in and out of St. John's. I think that this is a sad commentary upon our common sense. But more than that~and I think here I find much greater agreement among both sides of the House, is the lack of full disclosure on the part of Crown corporations.

I would hope that when the next budget is brought down that the budgets of the Crown corporations, all Crown corporations, including Memorial University-and I have nothing but the highest regard for Memorial University. I had the honour to attend that institution and graduate from it and I have nothing but the highest regard for it and it is because I have such a high regard for it and I wish its standards to remain high that I suggest that its budget should in future be absolutely and thoroughly debated in this House of Assembly.

There is nothing wrong with a full open debate and people who suggest that more progress is to be made by keeping things quiet, I think are very much mistaken. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR.~- _!:ARTER: So, the reason we came out of the caves, we advanced caves, ~lr. Speaker, is that at some point in our history mankind learned to criticize himself and to learn by his mistakes. And if this House is to he anything more than a partisan forum we are going to have to learn to give and accept criticism, sometimes harsh, always I hope constructive. But 843

December 4, 1975 Hr. J. Carter. Tape no. 341 Page 1 - mw We are going to have to learn to do it and the sooner we do it the better, and there is no better heading to criticize ourselves than under the heading of the budget. Now what I am going to view with alarm is the following, and I feel it is extremely alarming. For the past twenty-five years- we have heard debater after debater,speaker after speaker- that is to say, a person who speaks, not the Chairman of the House, say that we should industrialize and that has been made the God of the only hope for Newfoundland.

But I would not suggest for one minute that we turn away industry. I would not suggest for a moment that we view industrialization by itself as bad. But I suggest that we cease and desist, as soon as possible, this excessive worship of smokestacks. Smokestacks are not monumerts. MR. DOODY: How about steady jobs? ~. J. CARTER: I hear someone suggesting that industrialization brings steadv 1obs. I would ask, how many steady jobs or how steady are the .1obs that Erco has brought? How steady are the jobs that the refinery and the linberboard mill have brought?

Now I know that the two outstanding examples which are ~iven are Grand Falls and Corner Brook. Without the paper industries there, they would merely he logging camps, if thllot. AN HON. MEMBER: And Wabush. MR. J. CARTER: And Wabush. I think I heard some hon. member mention Wabush. I qm not suggesting that industry be turned away, but I am suggesting that we should not pay through the nose for industry, We should not try and drag in industrialists. And one merely has to name certain past industrialists to deplore them. The names spring to mind, I do not even need to mention them.

But they were disastrous for Newfoundland and history will recall that we would have been better off without them. We have four great resources, renewable resources, and they are: the fishery, forestry and farming, agriculture. I would add minerals except that minerals are not a renewable resource. The more you 844

December 4, 1975 Mr. J. Carter. Tape no. 341 Page 2- mw take the less you have, but we seem to be blessed with a great store of minerals so I will for the time being add them to my list. I would hope that more and more of the dollars that are earned through mining would stay in Newfoundland. And I would not turn away practical suggestions for further processing of these materials here. But I think that a Province which neglects its natural resources, its natural renewable resources, does so at its peril. The former member for Grand Falls, Mr, Senior, and I had the pleasure of taking a helicopter ride from St.

John's to Buchans. And the operator or the pilot flew us at a level something below 200 feet. Those of you who have flown in a helicopter - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. J. CARTER: Fled. Fled. - will agreed that you can see the land that you are flying over in great detail. And we flew -over a great deal of wooded area, because if you curve up over that part of Newfoundland on your way to Buchans, you have to stop at Gander to refuel. If you fly that route, you fly over the most heavily forested area of Eastern and Central Newfoundland.

And anyone who suggests that our forestry resources are not great just has not looked at them. They are immense and that istn spite of the criminally wasteful forest fires that we have endured in the years, 1960 and 1961, that is in spite of those, and the many forest fires before and since. Our timber resources are enormous, but they are not always and not all that accessible, But they are to just an onlooker,or to a man in the street, they seem to go on for mile after mile after mile and some of them I swear have never been touched~are yet untapped. Farming, of course, will always be marginal in Newfoundland.

Our soil is not good nor is our climate reliable. 845'

Dece~her 4, 1975 Tape No. 342 mr- 1 MR. J. CARTER: I think that much more, well I know that much more could he done,and I do not wish to get into an involved technical debate at this time, but I think that you will all agree, all bon. me!lbers will agree, that much more could be done in the realm of agriculture. As for the fishery I do not pretend to be wise enough to be able to say much about it except that some nations seem to be making a lot of money out of our fish and I only hope we can get a practical 200 mile li~it and make that money ourselves.

Somebody is making a lot of money out of the fishery, somebody will always mske a lot of money out of the fishery. I hope that that soaebody will be ourselves in the future. So what are the conclusions that I come to at the end of it all?

Merely that we should look for and accept great constructive criticism because there are no simple answers and unless we are prepared to look at everything in an analytical light and to look for free open and constructive debate, If we stick with partisan, .1ust . take !»ATtf""" positions and hurl insults back and forth across this floor~andi feel I am as capable of doing that as any other bon. membe~ 1 I think that if we do that then we will not find the answers that we must find and I am sure will find.

But I would hate for anyone to suggest the answers are simple or that the answers necessarily lie in the direction of industrialization. I would like to see that God dethroned to some extent, not entirelyJ~ut certainly downgraded, So with ~hose few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I would end my speech. MR. SPEAKER (DR. OOLLIN~lJL_ Is the House ready for the question?

The question before the House in the sub-amendment, proposed and seconded, is as follows: that the following words be added to the amendment, "and deplores the inordinate swelling of the public debt of recent years and urges the government to limit severely for the foreseeable future the amount by which the debt is increased." Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Those in favour please signify by saying, "aye", those against the motion by saying, "no." 846

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 342 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I for one and my colleagues are quite willing to have a recorded vote on it. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The Houae will divide. 847

necember 4, 1975 Tape 343 nN niVISION MR. SPF.AKEr (nr. Collins): Order, please! IB-1 I believe hon. members are aware that they are voting on the sub-amendment and those in favour of the motion please rise. The hon. I!r. Smallwood; ~·r. Dawe; vr. Callan. Those against the motion please rise.

The hon. the ~!inister of }!unicipa] Affairs and Housing; the hon. the I1in:!ster of Transportation and Co111111unications: the hon. the ~inister of Tourism; the hon. the ~inister of ~anpower and Industrial Relations; the hon. the 1'inister of Health; the hon. the ~'inister of Soc:l.al Servi.ces; the hon. the }'inister of Provincial Affai.rs and Environment; the hon. "the Minister of Justi.ce: the hon. 11r.

Hells; the hon. the Yi.nister of Finance; the hon. the ""inister of Industrial and l'ural nevelopment; the hon. the }'i.nister of Fisheries; .the hon. the ~inister of Public lvorks and Services; the hon. the ~inister of Forestry ancl Agriculture; the hon. the Hinister of Education; ur. Cross; ~'r. Power; Mr. Young; !lr. Goudie; I<r. Hinsor; J'r. Dinn; 1'r. Patterson; ~·r. Carter; 1-fr. Woodrow; Dr. Winsor; Mr. ~arshall ; the hon. the Leader of the Opposition; }'r. Hodder; Mrs. l"cissac; ~lr. Canninr;; "r. l'_m~e; ~r. ~immons; 'lr. White; 1'r. Pins or; Mr. Flight; 1'r. l'ulrooney; Yr. T>irleout; ~'r.

Nolan; 11r. ~'cNeil; }'r. Neary. ~'R.. SPEAKF.P: I declare the motion 1 ost. The hon. the member for I.ewisporte ('lr. lfuite). S0}1E HON. l"EMBJlRS : Hear! Hear! Y'R. h'HITB: First of all, Sir, as is the custom in the House I ~10ul d like to conr:ratulate You Honour on being elected Speaker of the chamher for at least the next five years, Sir, or ten years. How 1'1\lch longer, of course, clepencls on the outcome of the next r;eneraJ election. 1 take a note from a former speech by the 11ember for "'~'j lJingate U'r.

Smallwood) when I point out that you hold a position, Sir, ~mich has been held by some of the outstanding figures of our parli.a111entary history. nne of the greatest figures in Newfoundland history, Sir, Dr. 848

nprember 4, 1975 Tape 343 P.\-2 llillilllll rarson, who hanr.s second from the left above my hon. mt'!m\>ers, "'a11 once Spealrt>r of. the Pe>uRe an,! even a common fishenn11n, Str, ~·.P. l>enny of r;orbonear who is located .1ust behind u:e here. I 'i,tould li~e to con(!ratulate as \o•ell the member for St. John' 11 South (!' r. C:ollin~;) and the member for Ron11vista North (~'r. Cross) on their appointments here in the legislatu re. I am sure , ~·r. Speaker, each will llhow the tolerance necessary towards new member s of the chamber as we speak. 849

necember 4, 1975 Tape No. 344 NM- 1 :<r.. H111TE: l'r. Speaker, before I get into my few remarks let me add a personal note to certain members who~ I am pleased to be able to !lerve this Province with. The t!ember for St. John's lvest (t!r. Crosbie), Sir, althou~h he is not here today, he just made it in the election, Vr. Speaker, but J am sure that that ~•ill not restrict his activities here in the House of Assembly. ~lr.

Speaker, let me congratulate t~e hon. member on the recent selection of his son, Ches, as Rhode Scholar, Ris son and I once both worked to~ether at CJON and I would be remiss, Sir, if I did not say his son was quite an ardent wo~ker indeed and his awarding of the 'lhode Scholarship comes as no surorise to me, The hon, ~ember .for Twillingate (:Mr. Smalh•ood), t•r, Speaker, what a stroke of luck that ••e new members of the Hou<:e have the ~ood fortune to be able to benefit from the vast experience and kno .. •led~e of this gentleman. "r.

Speaker, "e s:lt here side by side, as do our districts of Lewi•porte ;md Twill:lnf!ate, a fact which I m:lght say, Sir, caused me some anxious moments dur!n~ the recent election particularly as the hon. ~entleman must drive throup,h my district to reach his own. T would like, Sir, to congrat11late the hon. Ml'mher for Tw:lllinp,ate on the recent Fiftieth Hedding Anni.versarv celehrations. The hon. the Premier, Sir, Mr. Speaker, an acquaintance of mine of sorts clurinp the past feH years, a man who I found just as hard to rea~h as a reporter as I do to get information from here in the Chamber.

The mcmher for Kilbride (Mr. Wellfl), Sir, I note his discline in stature from a physical sense, of course, and somethin~ some hon. members here present should take note of in view of the great number of heart attacks toe are experiencing tho!le days. The member for r.rand Falls n1r. Lundrigan), Sir, the member for r.reen Bav (Mr. Peckford) and of course the loquacious member for Bonavista South n•r. Morgan) - ~ ~· NEA~V: Hear! Hear! }11>. WHITE: - all sometimes friends and somettmes contemporaries, Sir, B50

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 344 NM- 2 MR. WHITE: outside the House, and I look forward to debating with them during the years ahead. The Leader of the Opposition , (Mr. R9berts~, Mr. Speaker, one of the most brilliant individuals in public life in Newfoundland today, I maintain, Sir, and Newfoundland is poorer off, Mr. Speaker, because he is sitting here instead of over there where the hon. the Premier sits as I am sure he will some day. And of course, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearv). How tragic it is, Mr.

Speaker, how tragic indeed, and people all over Newfoundland are mourning the fact that the hon. member is no longer an Opposition critic. Mr. Speaker, I hope to demonstrate, Sir, during the next little while why I intend to vote for the amendRent put by my hon. friend, the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. Here we are, Mr. Speaker, all fifty-one of us, all elected to serve the Province, elected to make laws, Sir, and of course, Mr. Speaker, we who are members of the Opposition elected to suggest, probe and ask questions.

But it seems to me, Sir, that something has happened to parliamentary form of government in this Province. It has become an adversary fora instead, Sir. Why is it, Mr. Speaker, that ministers of this government find it so difficult to answer questions? Why is it, Sir, that ministers such as the members for Green Bay, and Bonavista South, and Grand Falls, play little games, Sir, instead of giving detailed and sensible answers to questions when put by members of the Opposition?

Answers to questions, Sir, I maintain, and to the people of this Province, are entitled to answers in this Chamber and they are entitled to have answers to the 600 or 700 questions that are on the Order Paper. Mr. Speaker, during the past few weeks I have been going through some of the debates of this Legislature during the past few years, the past twenty-five years or so and I find that even on Opening Day and a few days later, most of the questions that have been put on the Order Paper have been answered and here we are, Sir, two weeks or more in this 851

O~ember 4, 1975 Tape NO. 344 NM- 3 Chalibe~ and hardly any of the quest;J.ons answered so far. Or is it, Mr. Speake~, an at.telllpt by the. 89Ye'ftlaDt to c:over Up • Sir, au attempt to bide the. truth from onr people. Ob yes, Mr. Speake.r, a covering up of inforD!ation and let me give you some eX81111)1es. The member for Grand Falls. • Sir,. the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development (M'r • Lundrigan) refuse!! to table d~ails of loaM and t:rants in connec:tion with his llural Development Department. Sir. Why, Sir? Why is that :tnfor:mation not made public: to the people of Newfoundland? Is it because there is something· to hide. Sid WUl some people be 85·2

December 4, 1975 Tape 345 PK- 1 Mr. White: embarrassed, Mr. Speaker. It makes no difference, Sir, information such as that should be made public, embarrassment, Mr. Speaker, or no embarrassment. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Peckford), Mr. Speaker, has so far refused my questions with regard to water and swwer projects that ~·Tere deferred after the cutbacks following the September 16 election. Does he too have something to hide, Mr. Speaker? Were all districts in Newfoundland, Sir, treated equally? Did not Green Bay get cut like my district, Mr. Speaker? Why cannot we find out, Sir?

Why must this information be hidden and covered up? Why, Mr. Speaker? Are we not entitled to know how this government decides its priorities, Sir? The Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, refuses to table paving contracts in the House as he was asked to do a few days ago by one of the hon. members on this side. Why, Sir? Do we not have public tendering any more? MR. MO~<?AN: Yes we do. MR. WHITE: Well, if so, why are not the contracts tabled? We are entitled to see them, and see what is going on. Those are examples, Mr. Speaker, of just the past few days in this House.

What about the past few months', Sir, when Newfoundlanders were kept in the dark about the financial position of this Province? In the opening statement in the Budget, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance admits this cover up of information, Sir ,, he admits he knew all along. Why did he not tell the people? As a local columnist wrote in one of the daily papers a little while ago, Sir, "Does the need to be re-elected warrant a false economic outlook for Newfoundland~" Does it, Mr. Speaker? Does it warrant the emotional trauma inflicted on the people of this Province?

Oh how they played, Sir, with the emotions of our people. Oh how they lifted them up with promises, and dropped them with the facts after the election, Sir. Unfair, Mr. Speaker, very unfair indeed. The people of Comfort Cove-Newstead 853

December 4, 1975 Tape 345 PK- 2 Sir, did not deserve to have tenders called for water and sewer, and then, Mr. Speaker, the lowest tender identified only to have the project deferred. Did they deserve that kind of emotional shock, Sir? I suggest not. Likewise, Sir, in Embree in my district, people getting sick daily because of contaminated water.

Their hopes were raised during the election and prior to it, Sir, by this government, before September 16, only a matter of time before they have good drinking water, and then they have to hang their heads again because the deferment is announced by the Premier and subsequentially by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Peckford). Yes, Mr. Speaker, I maintain it is a cover up of information in this Chamber and in this Province. No government, Sir, has the right to play with the emotions of people, raise · them up and then drop them, Sir, mercile~Rly down.

All of the information was known this past Su.aer, Sir, and perhaps even earlier. Why was it not released? We all know that, Sir, only one reason: Sir, the greed for power, the covering up for greed, the greed to be re-elected to obtain power once again in this House and in this Province. It is okay, Sir, for the Member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) to stand and talk in platitudes about this personal campaign, about he did not hide the facts, about how the time has come for sound,aenaible debate here in this Hou~e. But, Mr.

Speaker, I do not intend to let these hon. gentlemen forget their sins as quickly as this, in future debate, Sir, maybe, but not in my first speech in this Honse. Not, Mr. Speaker, after the charade of this past year and this past Summer. The $1 billion budget, Sir, was that part of the cover up too? How much information was hidden for the sake of votes, Mr. Speaker? What about the cover up on the Lower Churchill project, Sir? The big blow up in the Straits of Belle Isle? Scandalous, Sir, when it is viewed in terms of the statement made by the Minister of Energy in this House just a few days ago. 854

December 4, 1975 Tape 345 PK - 3 LabradoJ:." Linerboard, Mr. Speaker - when will the government come clean on it? When, Sir? ·Are we to believe what we hear in the street, Mr. Speaker? ls the govermaant aga:Ln, Sir, I ask, concealing information? I thiuk we should have a debate - the Labrador Linerboard here in this House, Mr. ·Speaker, just like we are going to have a debate on the Lower Churchill. The project, Sir, should be investigated, Labrador Linerboard Limited. What about the ·shipping contracts, Mr. Speaker? Is the government proposed to put them on the Table of this House to be viewed by bon. members? Have they heen changed in recent months? That is something we should know, 855

December 4, 1975, Tape 346, Page 1 -- apb MR. F. WRITE: Mr. Speaker, Let us have a debate. Some hon. members who were not here in the last session, Sir, who had Many things to do with Labrador Linerboard Limited are here again now and it is a good chance for all sides to make their views known and to get it out in the open once and for all. Equalization, Mr. Speaker; was there a cover up there as well, Sir? Did the government know what equalization grants would be,or are we to believe the minister when he says it was based on hope, Mr. Speaker?

Was the entire bud~et, Sir, based on hope, hope that Ottawa would be more ~enerous, hope that the civil service would settle for 18 per cent? Oh they knew, Sir, they knew. If they did not know, Mr. Speaker, they do not deserve to be the ~overnment of this Province. Come-by-Chance, Sir; there again an example of coverin~ up. Again, Sir, they knew and did not even have the decency, Mr. Speaker, to remain silent on the project.

Instead, the bon. the Premier talks about expansion when he knew full well the refinery existing there at the present time was in financial trouble, Sir, and he should have said nothinp, or told the truth. The government says it is trying its best, Sir, to come to grips with the crisis facing us in Newfoundland. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, one way to do that is to cut out the needless expenditure on this creature called Information Services, this agency that the member for LaPoile so proudly talks about in recent weeks. What do they do, Sir? In Heaven's name~ what do they do?

I have been watchin~ since I came here, Sir, and this is a t~ical example, the one I have here, there are five press releases, Sir, for one full week - November 20 to November 26 - five nress releases, Mr. Speaker. Two come from the Newfoundland Sports Federation and three are from government sources. Mr. Speaker, I would like to know how much each press release costs. I suggest perhaps in the thousands to get them around. What else does Information Services do, Sir? Is there something else they do besides write press releases? If there is, Mr. Speaker, we should be told. If there is nothing else they do, Mr.

Speaker, I maintain that particular or~anization of govern~ent should be disbanded, Sir, or someone put in charge who can dig out some facts and get to the bottom of it. Goodness knows, Sir, the need to release

December 4, 1975, Tape 346, Page 2 -- apb MR. WRITE: information is great enough in this Province. The things I have mentioned alone would take up several weeks, I suggest. The government talks about the sales tax. Once again I suggest it is socking it to the little guy in Newfoundland. Another· 2 per cent on building materials, Mr. Speaker, another 2 per cent on automobiles, another 2 per cent on toys, Mr. Speaker, and the minister has the gall to stand in this House or to appear on television and say that sales tax is almost a luxury tax in Newfoundland. Almost a luxury tax.

Shelter, automobiles, appliances, some luxuries, Mr. Speaker, some luxuries indeed. Why not the corporations, Mr. Speaker? Why did they not get hit in this particular budget? Is the minister afraid that the President of the Board of Trade might go to a Kiwanis meeting and condemn his, Sir? It is no wonder that a majority from the other side of this House come from urban areas of this Province, Sir. That is where their buddies are 1 Mr. Speaker, the buddies they are protecting by not increasing the corporation taxes, It is scandalous, Mr.

Speaker, when you hear stories about the Royal Bank of Canada with a forty-two point something increase in profits so far this year and the Bank of Montreal with a 46 per cent increase and then there is no additional corporation tax put on in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, there are two - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. WRITE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. members, if they do not mind, I would like to speak . Mr. Speaker, there are two amendments being discussed or were being discussed here, Sir, The sub-amendment which I voted against was in some way to restrict borrowing of the government. Mr.

Speaker~how could I have voted for that, Sir, coming from a district where twenty ef twenty-one communities have no water and sewer. Hopefully, Sir, borrowing will bring them water and sewers and some of the basic services that many districts represented by bon. members of us already have, Sir. And I hope that with borrowing, Mr. Speaker, and with co-oueration from Ottawa that this government gets out of the habit of puttin~ $35 million arterial roads in St. John's. SOME HON. MEMBF.RS : Oh, oh! MR. WHITE: No, Mr. Speaker. That is right, Mr. Speaker, for arterial 857

December 3, 1975, Tape 346 , Page 3 -- apb MR. WHITE: roads. Thirty - five million bucks could pave every road in rrry district and put water and sewers in every cm.unity. No, Mr. Speaker, l did not vote for the sub-alllendlllent, I did not vote for the sub-amendment. It is the amendment, Sir , that condemns this government, it is tbe amendment, Sir, that deplores the cover up of the amendment. It is the cover up, Sir, 858

necember 4, 1975 Mr. White. Tape no. 347 Page 1 - mw that needs to be exposed and that is why I am for the amendment and will vote for it this day. Mr. Speaker, all of us, fifty-one lawmakers, Sir, let us do what we were sent here to do, Let us get the information in the open, Mr. Speaker. Let us open the vaults, Sir, and bring up the ·files and let us see if collectively, Sir, we cannot use our creative talents to bring more prosperity to the people of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. minister, it would probably be an opportune time to draw the attention of the House, which has to be done no later than 5 o'clock;to the items which will come up on the debate for adjournment at 5:30 p.m. I have received notice of three of them: One from the hon. member for LaPoile ~r. Neary), related to his question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries, a question with respect to the dumping of fish during peak periods of the fishing season by fishermen.

The second notice has been given to me, I believe the next two, the second and third, by the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir, one relating to his question to the hon. Minister of Industrial Development, a question related to the Burgee fish plant, and the third matter this afternoon, notice being given by the same hon. gentleman with reference to his question to the hon. Minister of Fo~estry and Agriculture and referring to the supply of timber for the Conne River sawmill. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I have only been in the House, Sir, since 1972, and I think this is the first time in many years that I have heard such a simplistic and naive approach towards the criticism of a Budget Speech in that many years. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons), the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White), have tried to put forward the official Opposition's case of why they are against, in many instances, the Budget Speech brought down a few weeks ago. To me it shows a total lack of research, a total lack of understanding of the financial position of the Province and 859

December 4, 1975 Mr. Peckford. Tape no. 347 Page 2 - mw perhaps some~mat in their minds, they believe that everything runs so simply i~ government that you only have to take a cursory glance at the budget, you only have to take a very cursory glance at the Auditor General's Report or at the Public Accounts Report to understand some of the more intricate details of our dealings with Ottawa, in our equalization grants and in our own dealings financially in the Province. It is just amusing, Mr, Speaker, to listen to the han. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) try to make a case that this government has tried to cover up a lot of the facts ~ealing with the financial situation of this Province. As the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) has amply pointed out,with tangible things in his hands such as the Public Accounts Report, the Report of the Auditor General, who is supposed to be the watchdog on the finances of the Province, who has access to all kinds of information, which would indicate to him where and when the government is falling astray or doing things which it should not do.

All these kinds of things are never quoted by the hon. members of the Oppositiqn when they attack. They do not use the information which is at their disposal, which by House orders we must give. This kind of information is never used to indicate, in a concrete and constructive way, just exactly where the government has been going wrong in its spending. And, Mr. Speaker, to indicate and to try to accuse the government of a free-wheeling spending spree over the past few years just does not bear up under any kind of scrutiny. It is very interesting to notice, Mr.

Speaker, that the highest percentage increase in the budget of this Province did not occur in 1972-1973, it did not occur in 1973-1974, it did not occur in 1975- 1~76 it occurred, Mr. Speaker, when the Liberal Party was the government of this Province in the year 1970-1971, when there was a thirty per cent increase in the budget from one year to the next. The highe _st increase in budget from one year to another, since this party has been in power, was in 1974-1975, when the percentage increase was twenty-three per cent. And yet 860

nec.ember 4, 1975 Tape 348 IB-1 }'P • PE(1{F0l'J'I: the Opposition, the Libera] Opposition can ~ccuse this present administration of going on an expensive spending spree in the past three years when in actual fact that ''ery party when it was in po~1er was re.sponsihJ e fe-r the largest percentage increase in a budget from one year to the next. no you call that, ~'r. Speaker, a spending spree?

One would think that in order for this administration to be accused of that kind of spending spree we would have to have spent a lot more than 23 per cent from 1974 to 1975, a lot more than 14 per cent from 1973 to 1974, a lot more than 11 per cent from 1972 to 1973. In my opinion, ~r. Speaker, and I submit to you that this does not indicate, these are the facts, this does not indicate any kind of spending spree by the present administrat:! .on. Add to that, ~r.

Speaker, the fact that inflation was most rampant ln these years since ~•e have come into office, acld to that the fact that inflation was more rampant since 1972 to 1975 than it was previous to that, and ad.d to . it 1as I have already said, the fact that our percentage increase has been less than was the case before we came into office, and then you can accuse,the Opposition can accuse this administration of g6ing on an expensive spending spree, forgetting all about fiscal responsihilities? ¥r. Speaker, under scrutiny those kinds of accusations just do not stand up. That do not bear the li~ht of day.

They do not bear the light to the facts that they have access to, in the same way, as I have access to them. So that if these two hon. gentlemen on the other side had done their homework they ~muld have found that far from a spending spree, the present administration has followed a policy of reasonable •rise spencl:!n~ over the past few years from 1972 to 1975 and the facts bear it out. Now, ¥r.

Speaker, as a matter of fact from 1965 to 1971 the increase :!.n the budget of the Province of Newfoundland increased by 117 per cent when inflation was not a factor to be cons:!.clered, 117 per cent from 1965 to 1970, five years of Liberal administration. Yet we are accused by the Liberal Opposition of going on a spending spree! 861

necember 4, 1975 Tape 348 IJI-2 ~. l'Er.KFORn: . 'r. Speaker, a few other facts which might enlighten the newcomers to the House of just exactly what the situation is in rel a.tion to other expenditures by this administration. t•7ould you believe, ~r . Speaker, that in 1965, ten years ago, one decade ago. that the total expend:l.ture by the nepartment of Education on current :md cap:ltal account ">as $29 million? Hould you believe that only ten short years ago that was the .total expenditure on education in 'this whole Province.

That looking at it today, the 1975 estimates in~icated a total expenditure of $246 million in ten years. We "•ent fro!" $29 million to $246 million and would anybody care to challen~e the following statement, ~r. Speaker, that the educational authod .ties in this Province are any more pacified or content with the present expenditure on education in this Province,anymore so than they were in 1965? no we have total solidarity with the administration :In the way education and the amount of ~oney is being spent on it from the educational authorit:l.es :l.n this Province?

Tlo we hear nobody talking about the pupil-teac.her ratio in 1975 because we have gone from $29 million to $246 million? Is there :tnybody in this Province nm.• saying that there are too many students :In a classroom? Is there any board in this Province saying, I am bankrupt in 1975? Oh, yes, ~'r. Speaker. ~'any of them. And I suggest to you that today even though the expenditure has gone from $29 million to $246 millton that we still have many of the same problems in 1~75 in education as we did in 1965.

So that even though the expenditure has :Increased enormously, astronomically over a ten year period, we still find ourselves in that bind. Ts anybody here going to contend that one cent of that $246 million should not have been spent on education in 1975? ~otherhood, Yr. Speaker, motherhood! Nobody can,:l .n this House, contend ~dth e~ny degree of validity 862

December 4, 1975. MR, PECK FORD: Tape 349 RH - 1 that we should not have spent that 1we should not have spent that much money on education? Is there anybody here, Mr. Speaker, would contend that in 1965 when the total health expenditure, capital and current was $31 million and in 1975 it is $179 million, when we hear people on the opposition side saying, you have deferred this hospital in Clarenville and that one on the Burin Peninsula and all around the Province, is that motherhood, Mr. Speaker? Ah yes, it is when we are dealing with the sick of this Province, it is.

And can anybody find, has the opposition been able to find anywhere where we could have cut that $179 million? No, Mr. Speaker, it cannot be done. It is impossible. And yet we hear accusations of cover up of spending unwisely, indiscriminately around this Province when we have tried in the last three and a half years to continue a policy that was even started by the previous administration of providing those social amenities that are basic to any society in the Western World let alone the whole World. There is nowhere we could have stopped. And yet we did not put any in the fisheries, Mr. Speaker.

We have done nothing on resource development in this Province, absolutely nothing. We have only gone from $3 million in 1965 to $22 million in 1975. So it goes, Mr. Speaker, down through all the various govern­ ment departments, $46 million in 1965 in highways to $215 million; $4 million in municipal affairs and housing_to $46 million. And the hon. member for Lewisporte can indicate in his speech, Mr. Speaker, that there is no water and sewerage in Embree yet, that we are not in a position to go ahead with the distribution lines in Comfort Cove after the DREE line was put down to the fish plant. Ah yes!

But we are on a spending spree, Mr. Speaker, only as long as we do not service every community that the people in the Opposition want us to service! That is when we are on a spending spree. There is no spending spree if there is a water and sewer system in Embree. There is no spending spree if there is a water and sewer system in Comfort Cove or in some of the other municipalities that come under the aegis or are represented by people in the opposition, no spending 863

December 4, 1975. Tape 349 RH - 2 ~. PECKFOPD: spree then, ~tr. Speaker. And the cutbacks on water and sewer facilities do not only apply to opposition districts. They apply to all districts in the Province and everywhere. And to indicate Mr. Speaker, as he did, the member for Lewisport (Mr. F. White) that I refused as Minister of Municipal Affairs to provide the information on the deferment of water and sewer projects is not true. I have not refused. I have not refused to give the hon. member from Lewisporte the information Which he requested. I have not refused it, categorically have not refused it.

And so why should he take it upon himself to- day, to get up and say that I had? I have not refused to give that information. As a matter of fact that information will be forthcoming. But, Mr. Speaker, we only have twenty-four hours in a day the same way as the hon. gentlemen opposite. And when you have forty-five or fifty questions or more to answer for your department to the House it is impossible to get all the information together and across to the bon. members on the other side in a week or two weeks. It is impossible.

Patience, very often, enters into this a little bit as well and to indicate,because he is only been a new member, perhaps I am being unfair to him, but to try to indicate that after two or three weeks he expected all the government ministers, all the ministers over here to have all the answers to all those questions by December 4 is being somewhat unrealistic and how the operations of the government departments work. So, Mr. Speaker, there has been no spending spree. There has been no cover-up. Look, Mr.

Speaker, I ask the members on the opposition side to go get the budget speeches that were presented to this House from 1949 to 1971 and compare them with the kind of information that has been given in the budget speeches from 1972 to 1975 and there has been a wealth of information given. On the Lower Churchill , it was in this bon.

House last Spring that the hon. minister responsible for the Lower Churchill gave a progress report and information concerning the Lower Churchill and we have recently given a further progress report on just exactly where we stand and how much money will be expended on that project 1n 1976. Is that information? Is that cover up? 864

December 4, 1975 'fr. Peckford. Tape no. 350 Page l - mw And you cannot, Mr. Speaker, give information, as the hon. member for Twillingate (~r. Smallwood) knows a lot better than I do, on matters like Come-by-Chance and some of the bigger projects that are presently being negotiated and tslked about and discussed in London ·today or yesterday or the day before. It is impossible. You cannot do it. And it is all right for you to give a motherhood statement, you must let the people know,the people have a right to know, the people this and the people that and the people something else, and we all believe it.

And we all understand it. But you cannot do it on major products that are in jeopardy, You cannot release information that is going to affect bondholders and investors in major projects in this Province. We would be then accussed - you are damned if you do Rnd you are damned if you do not, Mr. Speaker - we would then be accused of sacrificing investment money in this Province, and letting it go down the drain. We are not interested in industry. We have just sacrificed $20 million that some group down in Texas were going to put into a bond issue that we have floated down there or wherever.

So it is nice and proper and it sounds nice and gets the press that we are not releasing to the public all of that great information which is necessary to those in a democratic system, Mr. Speaker. Oh, yes! It sounds great. But it cannot always be done at the times in which it is demanded. But let our record, Mr. Speaker, stand for itself. Let our record stand for itself. We have produced the information on all the major pr~jects in this Province, financial and all the other considerations there, We have done it. l~c have done it on the Lower Churchill.

We have done it on Come-by-Chance, and we will do it again when all the negotiations and things are finalized, and report to the people's House on what the situation is on all those things. And all the bon. members on the other side have to do, and it is easy - the hon, member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) knows this, the bon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) knows it - tba& it is quite easy if you do your homework on the Budget Speech or the Public Accounts 865

December 4, 1975 Tape no. 350 Page 2 - mw or the Auditor General's Report, there is information there. You have not exhausted your research capabilities or that of the Legislative Library in bringing to the hon. House information and make - not charges - but make points that are valid ag,ainst the government. MR. ROUSSEAU: \lhat about the one the Leader of the Opposition made the other day with your bonds that they were not all taken up. Is that true? MR.

PECKFORD: No, and that is another point somebody brought up the other day 1 which was dangerous in itself in bringing it up,about a bond issue, the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation down in New York, a $25 million bond issue had not all been taken care of. That is not true, Mr. Speaker. That is untrue. Where he got his information, I do not know. That does not help the credibility of the government, of your guvernment. Corporation tax, as if we could raise a lot of money on corporation tax. Corporation tax, that is a great one.

You are going to raise a lot of money on corporation tax-even though it is another lovely motherhood statement. Nail the corporations, nail big business. We have the highest corporate income tax in Canada. Newfoundland, 13 per cent; Prince Edward Island, 10 per cent; Nova Scotia, 10 per cent; New Brunswick, 10 per cent; Quebec, 12 per cent; Ontario, 12 per cent; Manitoba, 13 per cent. The great New Democratic Government of Manitoba only has a corporate income tax of 13 per cent. It is tied with Newfoundland.

Saskatchewan, another Socialist Government, 12 per cent; Alberta, 11 per cent; British Columbia, another Socialist Government for now anyway - there seems like there might be some problems out there in the next week or so - 13 per cent. We have the highest corporate income tax in Canada right now. And as free enterprisers on the other side as we are here, we must be careful what we are sayin~.

We are trying to attract -well most of us, I think, agree that we still have to attract the right kinds of industry into this Province with a balance to try to cultivate what is already ours, like the blueberries or the bakeapples, an~ other industries that are labour intensivP whPTP vnu get into processing. But there must be some balance. 866

necember 4, 1975 Tape 351 IB-1 M"R. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not bel:!. eve in saying categorically~no industry into this Province, no big industry. You have got to take each one on its own merits. You know, this kind of a blanket statement, Mr. Speaker, does not go down well with me at all. MR. WHITE: no not look for them. ~~. PECKFORD: Oh, ho! That is what you do, as the pamphlet the hon. member for LaPoile U•r. Neary) indicated yesterday. }!R. J'OBERTS: Salesmanship. 1-'J' .• PECKFORD: Oh, no question, no question. So, t<r.

Speaker, there has been no cover up, and if the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay n'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) wants an explanation for the $30 million or $20 million he said was missing in the budget, I am not going to go into it here, but I have it here on paper for him. If he wants an answer to it, it is right here and I would be only too happy at any time to explain to the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay n'Espoir(~~r. Si1111nons) just exactly the story on that so callecl $20 million or $30 million that he allegedly saicl was missinr,. AN RON. }'E 'llE"R: Tell us now. '<T!.

PECKFOllD: Hell, it is rather detaile!l .• I have not got - but I would he only too happy, I have it here on the paper. I want to jndicate we have it here and I can explain it to you. It is quite easy to understand and so on, what occurred there, and I would be only too happy to explain it. There is no cover up there, none whatsoever. The information is r:l.ght here for the hon. member for Conception Bay South ("r. Nolan) or for Burgeo-Bay n'Espoir (Mr. Sjmmons) or anybody else. None whatsoever, no attempt to cover up that kind of thing. The hon. Leader of the Opposition said in his speech, Mr.

Speaker, tell honestly - I think he used the worcl - tell honestly where we are. You know, ''r. Speaker, to me the budget speech pretty clearly indj cates to all who ~rant to read it - and H you read the charts and aJJ the rest of the thing to do with the Province - it clearly indicates where we are. We are in a pretty precarious situation as a Province, and "re are attempting through tax increases to improve 867

nece~her 4, 1975 Tape 351 IB-2 M1'. PECKFOT>n: that situation, to :lnclicate to the bonrl holclers, to inc!icate to the people who ~rish to invest :In this Province, that we are try:lng to do our part to bring our ship in order. The hC'In. member for Twillingate (r1r. Smallwoo«:

l) I think has exaggerated in his sub-amendment to make a point and a very valid point. In its clegree I do not agree with it but in itA tone it is right, it :Is valicl, that t~e have to be careful in borrowing.

If we :l.nd:lcate to the financial community that ~1e have to clepend on that ~re are tl\king stringent measures to put our current "house" in orcler, then I think that t~e shall be able to continue to borrow, perhaps not at the same rate as we have in the Jast five or six or eight years but to borrow at a rate that will allm~ us to continue, perhaps somewhat slowecl down but still to continue to pave roacls and install water and sewer systems and put some pump houses on those wells that we talked about. We are, l'1"r.

Speaker, tell1 .ng honestly to the people of Newfoundlancl where we are. ~onebocly made the comment, ¥r, Speaker, that without - the unclerstatement of the century - that ~Jithout the ~ovemment of Canarla tJe would he in sacl shape economically. You know, I mean, thl\t has been hammere~ to cleath ever since I was old enour,h to 1:1 sten to 1\ racljo or rel\cl a net~spaper. It is a knmm fact. That :Is t.>hat r.onfecleration ~·r. ~peaker, :1.~> 1!.1 J about. Tloes anybody ever stop to wonder what this country :Is all about?

That is the whole point of it, to bring everybody- for the wealthy provinces to help the poorer provinces so that the averar:e ~Til 1 p:raclual] y come up, SC"I that then the country ~rHl l,e a better and stronger cotmtry. NobC"Idy disagrees with that. ~T :I thout the r.overnment of r.anada v7e are J ost, dead. lve will all !';O to Toronto, "r. ~peake. r. It begs no ans t.'er. Hhat can you say about :It, the stnt.ement l.:lke that from the Leader of the Opposition, I think it m•s?

Phether it is a Liberal or a P.r.. or an NDl' or whatever is up there, that is a fact that vYe have J<not-m ever since - the member for TH:IlJ:Inr.l'!te (''r. ~mallwooC.) l!'.ade a major contribution in bringing it ahout, no ouest:lon. Fho here so far, r'r. Speaker, ~as 111ent:l.oned-the hon. member 868

nee-ember 4. 1975 Tape 351 IB-3 for Letdsro rtc.> Cl'r. tfuite) says, shelter is very important, 'r. Speaker. Shelte r, "e should nnt tax shelter. Well, we have tried to get around that, ~·r. !:peaker, and nobody has 111entioned to date that we have attempted in this budget, in a budget that r aises taxes, to help shelter, - I"Jl. 1-llllTE: One wipes out the other. ~'R. I'Ec:RF'OPI': To help shelter - 1-!Jt. I~ITE: One almost wipes out the other. 869

December 4, 1975 Tape 352 PK- 1 $600.00 to each person who gets involved in the first new home, which ~11 start January 1. That is an attempt to assist housing, to help shelter. And we have removed the tax completely on clothing. We cannot be accused, Mr. Speaker, of not trying to assist. The positive part~ of this Budget have been completed ignored of course by the Opposition. If they were a little bit more constructive and enlightened, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest they could both commend various measures. Surely everything we do over here is not ne~ative, Mr. Speaker.

Surely there is something in that Budget that indicates that the government of this Province is doing something in a positive way in some sector of the economy. From the speeches that we have heard to date there is no indication by the Opposition, and this has been one ~f their faults ever since they have been over there in the last three or four years, one of their faults that a lot of people talk about around the Province is that they cannot seem to create or organize a balanced approach which they are suppose to do as an Opposition. So we are trying to help the housiag industry in this Province. AN RON.

MEMBER: Hear, hear! -------- MR. PECKFORD: We are. It was the Liberal Government in Ottawa who a couple of years ago,which was a political move of the first order, brought in the $500. grant which is now g6ing to be phased out on December 31, and this was one of the reasons, among others, why we brought in the $600 in Janurary 1. So it does help them in a real way and a positive way, which was going to be phased out, Mr. Speaker, on October 31, and on the first part of October I wired Mr.

Danson and indicated to .. him and put pressure on him to keep that $506 in until the end of the year which later he agreed to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS : --------- Oh, oh! MR~P~CKFORD: A budget is a yearly thing, you know, and then we have to look at it again and then budget again in the same way as you do with your own income, You cannot project two or three years down the road:! suggest,if you do it. 870

December 4, 1975 Tape 352 PK - 2 ~ RON. MEMBER: What about an AHOP programme. AN_.!!ON._~MBER: Or a LIP progra111111e. MR. PECKFORD: It was announced several weeks ago,as a matter of fact,that is the revised AHOP programme which now provides mortgage money to couples, as well as couples with children. So, Mr. Speaker, in answering the questions put !.forward or the criticisms put forward by the bon. Member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) who ~ved the amendment, the bon. Member from Lewisporte (Mr.

White) who spoke on it, all of theae points can be answered reasonably by the government with no problems whatsoever. Mr. Speaker, I am looking for more information. Nr. Speaker, when I talked earlier aboat the percentage increase in budgets over the last ten years or so, I talked about that even in the time of rampant inflation, percentage increase in the budget was less now than it had been from times past. Just let me indicate to you, Mr.

Speaker, just how drastic this inflation has been. t have hear a number of water and sewer projects and what the cost was on those projects when they were designed years .• ago and what the cost would be now. In some cases from 1965 to 1975 the coat has tripled and quadrupled. I know of instances where a water and sewer system, for example, was su~pose to cost in October 1974, it was suppose to cost $500,000 or $600,000, and in April 1975 the cost was $1.1 million, $1.~ million. Then one talks about this spending spree that the Province bas been on over the last foar or five years.

Under any kind of scrutiny or research, Mr. Speaker, those kinds of accuaations can be answered fairly clearly and without much problem at all. Mr. Speaker, the bon. Member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) made a great deal out of the fact that how come we mis• interpreted or miscalculated the amount of equalization payments? 871

December 4, 1975 Tape No. 353 NM- 1 MR. PECKFORD: And you know he, Mr. Speaker, indicated that someone, and these were his words, someone in Ottawa told him last Spring and confirmed to him again•I think, only in the last few weeks, this someone, this great fiscal expert in Ottawa, this great fiscal ~~d in Ottawa that he has a direct line to, indicated to him that,you know,this Newfoundland Government down here, they did this all upside down. I mean they just do not know.

Our Treasury Board people and our Minister of Finance and so on, are just not all that tuned in on how you calculate these equalization payments. Well, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. member's benefit, it can be shown quite clearly that the kind of prediction that we made this year on equalization payments is comparable with the kinds of predictions that has been made by the provincial government over the last ten years, and that in each year there is always this fluctuation in the equalization payments. MR. Sfo'ALLWOOD : That is right. Every year since it began. MR.

PECKFOFD: Well, I have gone back ten years and found that the - MR. SJo!ALLWOOD: The hon. minister can go back ten more years with that. MR. PECKFORD: Right. MR. DOODY: The same thing. MR. PECKFORD: Exactly, and it is - MR. SMALLWOOD: Sometimes too much and sometimes too little. MR. PECKFOR~ Right. Exactly. It works both ways. MR. DOODY: I will present the statistics later on. MR. SIMMONS: That was never in question. MR. PECKFORD: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir did indicate that - MR. S!Mfo'ONS: I said that last Spring. MR.

PECKFORD: Okay, Mr, Speaker, could I have some order- here, The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir can have his day in court as well. But he did indicate or I did interpret, or understand what he said to mean, whether that is what it was supposed to mean or not he can clarify later, indicated that there was somebody in Ottawa who had told him that we were 872

December 4, 1975 Tape No, 353 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: not really living up to the confidence which was bestowed on us as fiscal agents for the Province and I suggest to him that he is totally wrong on this matter, that we can prove, by facts and figures to - Now, Mr. Speaker, on that very point, will the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir release the name of that gentlemen or gentlemen? Will the hon, member release the name of that person who gave him that information? Who is he? What is his position? Does he work in Ottawa with the Department of Finance up there?

If he is willing to charge the government with being incompetent financially to run the affairs and to calculate the equalization payments from Ottawa he should also be prepared to back up that kind of a statement and one way he can support this argument is release to us, this great fiscal God in Ottawa,so that we can then determine whether he has the capability to really analyze this equalization formula so that we can then find out whether that kind of a statement that was made by the hon. member is valid or not. And I suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, to just say someone told me that we were incompetent of calculating within some degree of error what our equalization payments were supposed to be, has very little validity. When under scrutiny that kind of statement falls by the wayside completely.

And we can show, and if the hon. member wants it, the Min~.ster of Finance will give it in his remarks, and we can go down to the Department of Finance and we can explain t·o the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir what happened on the $20 million or $30 aillion that be allegedly said was lost , we can tell him what I happened on the equalization payments, ezplain to his satisfaction, after ~ny, many months of teaching just exactly the score on those two supposedly valid points that he brought up on his amendment. So, Mr.

Speaker, this government is aware that there is a lot to be done in this Province, We are aware that unemployment is rising daily, There is a place in my district now, Mr. Speaker, which about three weeks ago had 100 per cent employment. Nobody unemployed. And today there is about 100 per cent unemployment, due to the Linerboard, Price and Bowater8 shutdowns, in the community of King's Point, where everybody is a logger just about, and 873

December 4, 1975. Tape 354 RH - 1 rrr.. PF.CKFO!'T): everybody was working with both Linerboard contractors, Bowaters and Price, tremendous employment situation down there over the last two or three years. I was startled, Mr. Speaker, on that point to hear on the radio this morning that the expenditure of the UIC Commission in the first nine months of 1975 was $2.4 billion, $2.4 billion. And I think myself, Mr.

Speaker, that as I indicated sort of briefly earlier that the approach that must be taken by the Province of New- foundland is not either one of all heavy industry or no heavy industry, all handicraft and small industry and no heavy industry. There must be a good balance of both. We must not - we cannot afford to close our doors on any kind of industrial or economic development. If it can be proven that we can have a market for processed blueberries or blueberry jam or something and we can employ 150 people, by all means go ahead and develop it.

If by the same token we can see on good terms to the Province, on reasonable terms to the Province that we can get a mining company or any kind of industry which is environmentally sound under the standards set by Environment Canada and Environment Newfoundland, then they should be allowed to come in here. We take over industries that have, for · various reasons, got into trouble and which we have helped save to keep 3,000 or 4,000 jobs, so that on either score we should not close the door. tife have, Mr.

Speaker, and I hope when we get into debate on this to have a chance to speak at more length on it, we have, in my opinion, absolutely no choice but to go ahead and develop the Lower Churchill River and its hydro resource. There is no turn~ng back on that kind of a project anrl ~ve go ahead within the means, financial means of this Province. And I still cont