VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, MARCH 26, 1984 NO. 10

Harch 26, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. rm. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR-. NEARY: Tape 349 EC - 1 Order, please! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the I have already discussed this matter with the ' Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) and he agreed that I could h~ve leave of the House to make a short statement. Mr. Speaker, I rise to give recognition today to a great Newfoundlander who will be inducted in May of this year into the Canadian News Hall of Fame.

He is a journalist who has won widespread respect, not only in his native Newfoundland, but the .respect of all of Canada as well in winning the National Newspaper Award for Feature Writing in 1968 and the Stephen Leacock Award for Humour in 19'81. Mr. Speaker, the man of whom I speak is none other than one, Ray Guy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - whose rapier wit and pen were formidable weapons in the political wars of the 1960s and the 1970s. There are only a few veterans of these wars now left in this House, Mr. Speaker. I feel sometimes that maybe' Mr.

Guy should perhaps bring his pen back to the I Newfoundland arena once again. As one who has provided Mr. Guy with some of the fodder, Mr. Speaker, for his writing 1 941

Marc h 26 , 1984 Tap ·e 349 EC - 2 MR . NEARY : Mr . Speaker, I know first-hand of the strength of his parti cular unique brand of humour. There are time s that ,.,e thought that instead of being a great writer and a great writer of satire that he was an s. o.b. Nevertheless, Sir , he has done Newfoundland great and is now being honoured as a great Canadian literary figure . Here is a small toast, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to make to Mr.

Guy : It is written that the pen is mightier than the sword/ It must be , because your books are a big hit.j So,may I wish you the very best and p~ ay/You never misla y that sword from where you sit . SOME BON • MEMBERS : Bear, hear! MR • MARSHALL : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER {Russell) : The hon . the President of the Council . MR . MARSHALL: Mr . Speake .r, I certainly rise on the government side to support that motion presented, I might say, in a rather peculiar fashion 942

March 26, 1984 Tape No .. 350 HJ - 1 ·MR. MARSHALL: in some respects,by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). Mr Guy is undoubtedly a distinguished Newfoundlander who has certainly made his mark on the journalistic scene. He I"ight also, Mr .. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman made oblique references to references to him, .be styled .as a revolutionary as well,because he contributed to a great extent, I think most people will agree, to a revolution which occurred.

And I do not think we will get into what that revolution resulted in,but you do not have to lo~k too far to see what the revolution did result in and he contributed to that. Indeed,Ray Guy with his .humour and his ability as a journalist is another indication of the young breed of Newfoundlanders who have ma:de their mark on the Canadian scene and we are certainly very proud that he has attained this very justifiable award and we add, with all members of the House, our congratulations to Hr. Guy on this great achievement. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTE .RS MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Commencing the month of April 1984, the Motor Registration Division of the Department of Transportation will be inaugurating an entirely new computer system to register motor vehicles, licence drivers andperform related work. This, Mr. Speaker, is another in a long list of improvements that have been developed in my department in recent years. 943

·March 26, 1984 Tape No. 350 MJ - 2 MR. DAWE: For example, in 1981 seat belt legislation was introduced in this House and became law on July l, 1982, after an extensive· public awareness campaign. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have consequently become leaders in Ci3-nada in wearing such devices and this has resuited in fewer serious admissions to our hospitals. In 1982, the Motor Registration Division introduced a method of staggering the issuance of vehicle licence plates.

This has resulted in a much improved service to the motoring ·public in that certain vehicles are registered at certain months of the year rather than all having to be registered before the March 31st deadline. Also, Mr. Speaker, on April l, 1982, Newfoundland became a member of the Canadian Agreement on Vehicle Registrations which is a plan of truck registrations whereby those involved in the Intra-Provincial Trade enjoy a greater deal of flexibilit y of operation and reduced fees. This plan requires drivers to pay only according to the number of kilometers they drive in each Province.

This latest improvement to the Motor Registration ~ivision of my department, Mr. Speaker, this on-line computer system, will further enable our staff to provide a much improved ·and faster service to the motoring public. Upon entry of a vehicle or driver transactions, the data contents are verified for accuracy and if acceptable the Motor Registration files will be updated and licences will be issued immediately. With 944

March 26, 1984 Tape 351 PK - 1 MR. DAWE: the implementation of this system the motoring public will no longer have to be issued temporary documents with regular documents to follow within a certain p~riod. of time. With such an immediate up-dating, all driver and vehicle records will be changed to reflect such / inform- tion as validi-ty o'f documents, changes of name or address, transfers of vehicle ownership ~nd information on traffic violations and fines. This system will be invaluable to the police as an enforcerrent tool since it will provide immediate identification and status of records. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: Further enforcement facilities have been included to identify veh ·icles l::y serial number, colour, owner's name, make and geographic location. In designing the system,every effort was made to try and use elements or information that conform to standards used in other provinces. Hr. Speaker , this new on -1 ir~e system of issuing driver's licences has also made possible the implementation of an organ donor consent form whereby motorists will be able to indicate their desire to donate parts of their body for transplanation or research.

The organ donor form is an attachment to the driver's licence and forthose motorists wishing to become donors the required information and conditions can be indicated on the form and remain attached to the driver's licence. MR. NEARY: Why do you not donate your brain to science? MR. E IMr-'lJ : For you it would be a minor operation. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. DAWE: In the case of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), if he wished to s:Ionate his brain it would certainly be minor surgery. I SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 945

March 26 , 1984 Tape 351 PK - 2 MR . DAWE: For those who do not wish to become donors,the form can be removed from the licence. Organs can be removed at most of the major hospital centres with programme co -ordination being provided by the Health Science Centre at St. John's . A pe:nnanent 24 hour te lephone listing has been established at 737 -6600 to accept all donations. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Bear, hear! 946

March 26, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. CALLAN: Tape No. 352 SD - 1 The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, in responding to that Ministerial Statement 1 I might say that, number one, of course, I believe that most provinces across Canada already have most of what the minister mentioned there. He went . back two or three years and talked about s~at belt legislation and so on but I, along with the minister, compliment the staff of his department because all of these things obviously would have and could have been done if the minister had never existed, it is just par for the course.

And as I said, most of it borrowed, the ideas are borrowed from other provinces. But we welcome it and I guess it means that perhaps the next step that the minister will be taking is going into the point system as they have in other provinces .of Canada. But anyway there is nothing new there and th.e minister was really scraping the bottom of the barrel, I think, to come up with a Ministerial Statement today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Finance (.Dr. Collins) 1 He was here and left again.

I do not know where the minister is. He is· coming again now. I have a couple of questions, Mr. Speaker, regarding the Come By Chance oil refinery. Of course, I am sure the minister is aware as I am -I was informed on the telephone this morning by a Petro-Sanada official-that the Come By Chance oil refinery will be scrapped in the not too distant future. I am sure that the minister is· aware of that as well. But on March 16, just over a week ago, Mr. Speaker, I asked the minister several questions about the Come By Chance oil refinery ·. The 947

March 26, 1984 Tape No. _35 2 so - 2 MR . CALLAN: minister gave no indication at that time that today' s announcement was itl11l"inent. 'he minister must have been aware of today's announcement a week ago,so why did the minister not tell us,not tell this Bouse a week ago when I asked him some questionS ' ,why did the minister not tell us what was about to happen at the refinery? Why did the minister a week ago evade my questions regarding the refinery? Did the minister not know? Was the minister not aware a week ago what was about to happen? Or was the minister so ill -informed on this matter as he is, for example , on budgetary matters? 948

March 26, 1984 Tape No •. 353 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: Would the minister come clean on this matter? Would the minister come clean on it? What is the future of the Corne By Chance oil refinery? MR. SPEAKER (Russeil): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, Petro Canada has made a release ori ·the future,and I am sure the hon. member has read i t . MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, the rninister 1 I am sure, has read it as well.

But last Fall I asked hirr. questions and the minister evaded them and he evaded them a week ago and it seems as though the minister plans to do the same thing today. Mr. Speaker, the scrapping of the refinery, would the minister tell the House does this mean that the storage tanks as ·well;will be dis- mantled and carried· away? vJhat about the assets of the sale of the parts· in the refinery? Fill this Province get any money from the assets of the sale of the refinery?

In other words,was that part of the agreement that this government made with Petro Canada when they passed over control of the refinery? ~·Jas there in that agreement a clause which said that in the event " of a scrapping sale that this Province would get some of the money from the sale of these assets? The taxpayers of this Province have invested approximately $50 million in that facility, Will the Province be getting any money from the sale of the assets? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, there was a very bad agreement made about the Corne By Chance refinery, I forget what year it was but sometime back in the 949

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 353 DR. COLLINS: 1960s anyway, \.rhen this Province was put on the hook for monies going into th~ refinery with very little prospect of getting the monies back, no agreement~ whereby we would get NM - 2 it back if things went wrong 1as of course they did and they were . bound to do because of the way the whole thing was set up. So I do not know if tha.t is what the han . member was referring to when he said was there an agreement put in place when \ve put our money into this refinery to get it back . As I say, there was absolutely no agreement made at that time about that situation.

Now Petro Canada subsequently bought the refinery. They bought it at a considerably lower co st than the amount of mo ney that went into it. At no time did the Newfoundland Government own the refinery . We were a minor investor in it with very little protection for our inve st ment at the time it was made . When Petro Canada bought the refinery they undertook to do their very best to rehabilitate and to reactivate it . They have now had the refinery for 950

March 26,1984 Tape No. 354 ah-1 DR. COLLINS: approximately five years, they have made strenuous efforts in a very, very difficult, almost impossible,really, world oil market,especially in terms of refineries 1and they have now announced today that theyare at the end of the line and that they see no prospect that it can be successfully rehabiliated, and they, of course, can now dispose of the refinery as they see in their own -best interests. They are the owners of the refinery. They had an obligation with the former owners of the refinery to give them·a certain amount of notice,which they have given.

They also entered into an agreement with us and they had no obligation to do this because 1 as I mentioned,we were not in an ownership position at ~ny point in time, perhaps we should have been, and if so there should have been something put into the agreement back in the 1960s. But anyway we never were in an ownership position but they did enter into an agrement. or an understanding with us to keep us informed as to how the situation was unfolding. They did that, they did that 'approximately a month ago.

I informed this House at the time that they had told us that the situation was still not such that they could see their way way clear to rehabilitate the refinery. I informed the House that we said, 'Would you please go back and review every prospect that you possibly can and try to come up withas _definitive an answer to your future plans as possible?

Because, of course, everyone ~s beginning to understand that after five years or longer monthballing the possibility of rehabilitation and reactivation are becoming very, very, slender and,even though there are only a small number of people working out there now 1they have an increasing feeling of uncertainty. So Petro 951

March 26,1984 Tape No. 354 ah-2 DR.COLLINS: Canada undertook to do that. They said, 'We will try to get back to you before the end of the month.' It is now before the end of the month,and they have been back to us a number of times. · And as the han. member has indicated 1 they made a release today saying that in their best Judgement, and they do not think they will have any cause to change this judgement, there is no possibility that the refinery can be rehabilitated by themselves or anyone else. Mr. CALLAN: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. The h~n. member for Bellevue. A supplementary, Mr.Speaker.

Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I should ask a supplementary to the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor). When I asked the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) a couple of questions a week ago 1 one of the questions was handed to the Minister of Development and I asked what was the Department of Development doing to try and find a developer or whatever for the Come By Chance refinery. And let me quote from Hansard, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Development said, "In fact,we have had discussions with 952

~ March 26, 1984 Tape 355 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: 11 companies who may perhaps be interested in being involved in Come By Chance as part of a petrochemical complex. And from my perspective, at least at this point in time, it would certainly seem to me that if Come By Chance has a 'future, it may :10t be as a pure refinery but as a refining operation in conjunction with a petrochemical complex,and there is ~ome interest in that.' The minister categorically says, 'We have had discussions with international co~panies that have some interest.' Let me ask the Minister of Development (Mr.

Wi~dsor), in view of today's announce­ ment, what happens now? Did the minister know what he was talking about last week? What happens no~ to the plant and the prospects? What happens to Come By Chance now? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Development. MR. WINDSOR: The han. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, obviously that question was answered a week ago. Nothing has changed in that regard. We have had discussions with international companies that· had · .. an interest, they still have an interest and we will continue to pursue them. MR. CALLAN: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The :1on. t~1e nember for Bellevue. ER. CALLAi.'i": Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the liinister of Finance (Dr. Collins) a question. We have out there, Mr. Speaker, the infrastructure for an offshore development site. We have a $20 million wharf out there. Come By Chance is a deep water port. ~t has all of the infrastructure, the roads and everything_ else there. Let me ask the minister 953

March 26, 1984 Tape 355 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: what does the ~inister see for the future of that area? Will the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), will the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor), will ministers of this administration' be working like they were working, for example, to reac:tivate Bai·e Verte and St. Lawrence? Will this administration and will the Minister of Finance be commissioning studies to see what alternate plans can be put in place ·for that site, Come By Chance, now that the refinery is going to be gone? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as the han. member pointed out, there is a wharf out there. !t is a deep water wharf, at least it is a wharf that can accommodate very deep draught, very large ships but, of course, it is not our wharf, it is the federal government's wharf. They put it there, I believe at a cost of something like $20 million,and it is in their posses~i~n and they own certain works in front of it and so on and so forth. If there is anything to be done with that wharf now, I am sure the decision will have to be made by the federal government. I have no doubt 954

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 356 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: that we will be discussing the matter with them about the final use and disposal of that wharf. I would point out, Mr.

Spe~ker, also that in making the announcement today Petro Canada said that they would anticipate that the dismantling of the refinery would be completed by the end of 1986 and that in the meantime they will develop a plan in conjunction with the Government of New~oundland and Labrador~ that is,they will keep us informed, they will consult with us, They will be the ones responsible for actually drawing up the plan because it is in regard to their property, but they said that they will do it in consultation with us over the next couple of years. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: I presume that the han. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is aware that in the 1979 Provincial General Election the present Leader of the Tory Party, the present Premier cif this Province (Premier Peckford) , announced as one of the planks in the party's platform that the oil refinery would be· reopened in ninety days. Now if the han. gentleman is aware of that, could he please tell the House why that commitment was not honoured? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I will be glad to receive from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) some document saying what he just said. I have never seen such a document. 955

Mc;rch 26, 1984 Tape No. 35(5 Nl4 - 2 MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEARY: ~1r . Speaker. 1,381 days over- due now the Prerrier's promise . Some 1,471 days have gone by, minus 90,is 1,381 overdue . Now, Mr. Spe~~er, let me ask the Minister of Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) a question in connection with the oil refinery,because the Minister of Finance (Dr .

Collins) in his reply to my colleague a few moments ago said that there was no obligation on the part of the original owners of that refinery to give revenue, or to honour their obligation to the Province. Now, Mr . Speaker, we all know what happened in the case of Eastern Provincial Airways , The administration there opposite left the final say for EPA go a couple of years when they could have had the 'final say . Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Justice this, There were two or three companies established to build and construct the refinery, Shaheen Natural I c Resources and Ne\o~foundland Oil Refinery Construction Limited , 956

=.I:- March 26, 1984 Tape No. 351 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Could the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) tell the House if in any of these agreements the company was on the hook and the Moores' administration let Shal;leen Natural Resources of.f the hook? Our rights were protected, Mr. Speaker, we were the owners of that company in the , event o.f default on the loans and so forth. Now would the hon. gentleman tell the House if in any of these agreements- and if the hon. gentleman does not want to answer me now he can do his research, go back over the agreements and read them because I remember it very vividly, Mr.

Speaker- that· Shaheen Natural Resources was cornrni tted to the Province but it was the Moores' _administration; the same as· this administration let Eastern Provincial Airways off the hook , the Moores •· administration let Shaheen Natural Resources off the hook? Would the hon. gentleman confirm or deny this ·? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): · MR. · OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge the · Moores •· administration did not let Shaheen off the hook on any matter. When it became bankrupt any rights that the governrnent~ad were exercised.

There _.was· certainly no deal that I am aware of ,and I am sure anybody else is aware of between the M~ores' administration and Shaheen Natural Resources, I think was the name of the company, and the companv went bankrupt. But T am certainly not aware of any action that the government could have taken and a benefit accruing therefrom to the Province after Shaheen Natural Resources went bankrupt. MR •. NEARY: MR •. SPEAKER: o _f the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. speaker. Supplementary, the han. Leader MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is answering my question off the top of his head. But I 957

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 357 so - 2 MR . NEARY: recall, Mr . Speaker, that there were a number of clauses in these agrea~ents that protected "the public interes~s and,through the transfer of shares and so forth and so on 1 the Moores' admin .istration left the public investment , the taxpayer investment, unp~otected 958

March 26, 1984 Tape 358 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: and , Mr . Speaker , that is where the trouble started. But I would submit to the hon. gentleman that he go "back and read the agreement and he will find out what I am saying is correct. But let me ask the hon. Minister ·of Finance (Dr. Collins) another question in connection with that refinery that was alluded to by my hon. colleague. · This is a very valuable asset .. that is being scrapped, Mr.

Speaker, and no doubt Petro-Canada will receive tremendous revenue through.the scrapping of this resource, and the taxpayers of this Province have $47 million invested in that refinery. What happens? Is cthe administration there opposite going to sit back , lay back and let Petro-Canada scrap that refinery and take the revenue and put it into their own coffers? Or will the administration there opposite make some attempt to recover some'of the $47 million that was invested by the taxpayers of this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, let it be quite clear on this, The Smallwood Administration entered into a terrible, terrible, terrible deal with the Shaheen interests, ·- - a total, you know, blowout, abust. No investor in his right mind would have gone in en the grounds the Smallwood Administration went in on. Once they had gone in that way and circumstances occurred that did occur, that is, when the oil problems arose in the Middle East and so on and so forth, when all these things occurred there was no way that Newfoundland had any chance of getting its investment back.

When this administration carne in we were left with this terrible thing on our hands and we worked at it day and night for many - -- - months,. The only protection "to.'e could get was through the agreement by Petro-Canada to keep us informed about certain things and to make their best effort. We had no hold over them as an owner, our 959

March 26, 1984 Tape 358 PK - 2 DR . COLLINS: investment had gone down the drain about ten or fifteen years before that, and the best we could get out of it,as I say,was to be kept informed by Petro -can ada,who are now the legal owners , They bought it from the people in Gr-eat Britain to whom the ownership of the refinery had devolved due to the bankruptcy of the Shaheen outfit and so on . So for the ho:t· member to suggest that somehow or other we can get monies back from the refinery now, it is cuckoo land, it is fairyland. In so far as great revenues that Petro -Canada will get from this, I am sure Petro -Canada will ha ve their own 960

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 359 HJ ·- 1 DR. COLLINS: ~~ords to say on that. But the information that we had wht;m we looked at the refinery a 1ong time ago,before it was certain what would happen to it,we . found that the breakup cost would hardly be covered by the sale of whatever assets were salable. In other words, it was at most a break even point. There was no great benefits to anyone from breaking up, dismantling the refinery and trying to sell parts of it. MR. Nlj:ARY ~: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Oppositon a supplementary. MR. NEARY: good deal when it was made. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, this was indeed a What made it a terrible deal was what the Moores administration did when thev changed the agreement. Sm.'!E HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL : MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, a point of order. The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is making a speech oe~ending his, the Smallwooo administration, which, thank God, is long since ·defunct. Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wants to make a speech,let him talk about the hundreds ; of millions of dollars that was saved to the Province of Newfoundland as a result of renegotiating that. The Province today would have been liable for what Kleinwort, Benson had to pay. But, Mr. Speaker, if he wants to enter into debate,we will debate with him at any time,but it is not the time to talk about the defunct Smallwood administration which the hon. gentleman was a proud member of and which plunged us into near bankruptc ~ 961

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 359 MJ - 2 HR. MARSHALL: in this Province but for the advent of another government. r.ffi. NEARY : To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tb that point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to submit to Your Honour that th~re is no point of order, that I am , merely asking questions of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and the han. gentleman obviously seems to think that I have touched a nerve.

As the han. gentleman is aware, it was the changes in the agreements and the transfer of the ownership of these companies that made it a terrible deal and that was done by an administation that th~ han. gentleman was a member ofr Uon. members can go back and check thier Cabinet directives and ·check the agreements and they will see that this is true, Mr. Speaker. So I would submit there is no point of order. We are allowed a little bit of a

preamble, Mr. Speaker, and I was about to put my question to the Minister of Finance. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order 1 the Chair did recogn ~ ze the han. the ' Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) on a supplementary question and 'certainly there is hardly a need for any kind of

preamble in asking a supplementary question. It did appear that members on both sides were entering into a kind of debate on this issue. I would ask the han. the Leader of the Opposition to pose a question. MR. NEARY: Mr. S~eaker, I was about to ask the Hinister 962

March 26,1984 Tape No.360 ah-1 MR. NEARY: of Finance (Dr.Collins) if he would undertake to table all the Cabinet directives that have heen issued on the oil refinery at Come By Chance since the administration took office on January 18 ·,19.72 , lay the information on the table of this House and let the member? of the House and the media be the judge of who made this a terrible deal? Would the han. gentleman undertake to do that? AN HON.MEMBER: From the beginning of the deal? MR.NEARY: Yes, from the beginning of the deal. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the han.

Leader of the Opposition is up to a lot of nonsense again. All this information was made public over the years, the whole sorry tale was laid out. Mr. Shaheen stood in this House and was questioned by members of this House through the piece. I mean/to suggest that this matter has not been thrashed out and the whole hopeless situation laid out and the finger pointed where the blame was is ridiculous. And I am sure the media will not be taken in ' by such ' a barefaced subterfuge . MR.NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The han. Leader of the Opposition.

MR.NEARY: I am not sure if I understood the answer to the question that I asked the han. gentleman. Is the han. gentleman refusing to table the Cabinet directives in connection with the changes that were made in the agreements on the oil refinery? Is he refusing to table these Cabinet directives that have been issued since 963

March 26,1984 Tape No. 360 ah-2 MR.NEARY: 1972? And if he is refusing 1 why is the han. gentleman refusing? Why cannot this inforrna~ion be put on the ·table of the House to be scrutinized by the pre ·ss and by the people of this Province and by members of the House? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Again, Mr. Speaker, the little game that is going on here, I am sure that anyone who has attended this House for any length of time knows all about it. Everyone is quite clear that Cabinet directives and Orders-in-Council are never made public. That is part of Cabinet secrecy.

Now what the han. member is trying to do is give the impression that that only applies to this case and therefore government has something to hide. Government does not table, never has, never will table Cabinet directives and Orders-in-Council. But what has been tabled is the whole sorry mess. And I will take this obligation in mind: I will ask the Clerk of the House to go back through the files and dig out all the information that was made available. There was voluminous quantities of it.

It is all most unappetizing reading because of the terrible deal that the Smallwood administration ' put this Province into but I will ask the Clerk of the House to dig out all this stuff and load it up on the table and then if the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) wishes to be a masochist and go through it he is quite welcome to do it. I am sure the press does not rieed to do it because they kno\'7 964

Ma.rch 26, 1984 · Tape No. 361 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: if they would look up their own files they will know what was said about this terrible deal right from the word go. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: gentle~~n, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (.Russell): of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the hon. Supplementary, the hon. Leader My question to the hon. gentleman was whether or not he would table Orders-in-Council and the answer the hon. gentleman gave was that Orders-in-Counc~l are private and confidential. That is not so, Mr. Speaker.

Orders-in-Council are sent to the Public Accounts Committee, they are sent to various committees of "the House, they are sent to various organizations around the Province. I have seen Orders~in~council all over the place, Mr. Speaker, so the hon. gentleman cannot hide behind that statement he just made that Orders-in-Council are private and confidential. In actual fact, they are not and they have never been. The h.on. gentleman does not know what he is talking about, Mr. Speaker.

Let me ask the hon. gentleman again; would the hon. gentleman undertake to table the Orders-in-Council that have been made on the oil refinery· since January 18, 1972? Yes or no. MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: request!" The hon. Minister of Finance. Yes or no! What a dramatic Mr. Speaker, we can go on like this· forever, I suppose, but Orders-in-Council are not displayed a.ll over the place. You do not find them in barbershops .. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: You do not find fish and chips wrapped up in Orders·- in Council and that sort of thing. 965

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 361 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: Cabinet secrecy. Orders-in-Council are part of Sometimes the substance, the meaning and the effect of an Order-in-Council is passed on because it has to be passed on to someone, but the Orders-in-Council themselves are not the subject for public reading and public scrutiny.

The substance OL the Orders-in-Council reaching back to not only 19,72 but reaching back to the 1960s when this terrible deal was struck in the first place - why anyone would want to d.o it, you know, boggles the mind - but anyway from the time this terribl~ deal was struck back in the 1960s by the Smallwood administration, the substance of those were tabled in this House in the various statements and the various · releases made. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell) _: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, every time I go down to the grocery s·tore I see on the shelf two little rolls or 'four little rolls in a package called 'budget', and every time I look at this little package on the shelves of the stores I cannot help but think of the hon. gentleman and his budget. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman obviously · is refusina to table this information. These Orders-in-Council, Mr. Speaker ! th .e hon. gentleman might not find them in the barbershops, but they are commonly distributed to the Public Accounts Committee, 966

March 26, 1984 Tape 362 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: I have seen organizations get Orders-in-Council sent~, Mr. Speaker, so therefore, the hon. gentleman cannot say that these matters are private and confidential. Now, let me ask the hon. gentleman ;;:nether question that my hon. colleague allud~d to in his opening questions,. Mr. Speaker. lvhat about the storage tanks? Are they going to be dismantled and tak 'en away? Also, Mr. Speaker, what will happen now when Hipernia goes into production? Does it mean that we will have to build another oil refinery in Newfoupdland?

Has the administration abandoned the idea of refining oil? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: question. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I am asking a Has the administration now abandoned any idea they might have had of refining and processing oil in this Province and have they given up on a petrochemical industry for this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as the statement by Petro Canada said, they will be fairly soon bringing forward a plan to implement the decision annotinced today. The effect of that decision will extend over approximately a two-year period.

They will be discussing the whole matter with us. I am sure that the oil tanks themselves will be in that plan, and,when that plan is brought forward, we will be ., able to see what they intend doing with them. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) also asked, 'Are we going to build a refinery?' He is very imprecise in his use of words. I do not know what he means by 'we'. If he means 967

March 26, 1984 Tape 362' EC -2 DR. COLLINS: the Opposition, they are not going to be in a position to build anything. If he means government, government has never at any stage said we are going to build a refinery. If he means we, the people of ~ewfoun.dland, I cannot speak for the private sector in this Province. If he means \o~e, as ·canadians, again I cannot speak for the private or the public sector in Canada. 1-lho does he mean by 'we'? 'Are we going to build a refinery in the future?' If he can define his question, I might be able to make a shot at ans\.Jering it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): MR. BARRy: The bon. the member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, I would direct this question to either the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) or the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) or the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor). In light of the decision to dis­ mantle the Come By Chance refinery, have there been any discussions with respect to, at the very least, maintaining the tank storage facilities in the context of a need for such tankage from a Hibernia dev€lopment? 968

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 363 - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member was askin~ have there been any discussions about the tanks. Yes, there were discussions about the tanks. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: And has there been a decision to maintain those tanks for use in any future Hibernia development? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, I do have to go back to Nhat the statenent p ut out b 'f netro r.anada said and what I said. ~hey will bring forward a plan for implementing their decision and I am quite sure that the disposal of the tanks will be part of that plan and they will be discussing that plan with us over the ensuing months or however long it takes to put the plan in place. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue, a supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) what happens to the eighteen employees who are presently employed at the refiner.·r.? ~ImV" soon will they be laid off and will there be alternate employment found for them by Petro Canada? Can the minister tell us that? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, we do have firm undertakings from Petro Canada. They will make very effort to find alternate employment in their own operations,either here or elsewhere in Canada 1 for those eighteen employees. And if a particuar employee, or one 969

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 363 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: or two employees cannot avail themselves of that, because the positions are not there or they do not ~vish to do it or they do not wish to move away or whatever, there will be the usual severance pay type of arrangements put in place. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The time for the question Period has expired. Before we continue,it is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries todaY. the Mayor of Makkovik, Mr. Toby Anderson, and the Town Clerk, Mrs. Myrtle Groves, from the district of Torngat Mountains. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

ORDERS OF THE DAY: Motion, the hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Livestock Act," carried. (Bill No. 4) On motion, Bill No. 4 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Elevators Act," carried. (Bill No. 3) On motion, Bill No. 3 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Boiler, Pressure Vessel And .

Compressed Gas Act," carried. (Bill No. i). On motion, Bill No. 2 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 970

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 363 NM - 3 On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on SuJ0olv, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 971

March 26, 1984 Tape 364 ·PK - l COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! We are discussing a resolution pertaining to Bill 10, Interim Supply. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we have another example before us today of why this administration have a reputation for closing up industries, for shutting everything down in this Province, a shut-her-down administration. Mr. Chairman, back in the 1979 - by the way, Mr. Chairman, I have to say this,that we do not need a lecture from the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) on what we are currently debating before the House, we are well aware it is the Interim Supply Bill. But, Mr. Chairman, what is happening is that the administration there opposite is asking the House to approve $600 million , over $600 million or over 25 per cent of the total budget, Mr. Chairman, so that the administration there opposite can carry on their same policies . can proceed on the disaster course that they are on. And, Mr.

Chairman, the reason why we are debating from this side of the House the way that we are is because we are trying to convince the administration to alter their course, to change their course, to change their direction, Mr. Chairman, because as hon. members are aware,the administration is on a disaster course. They have one failure after another, Mr. Chairman, one failure after another. They have no success. They cannot point their finger at one success they have had in the past twelve years, since the Tories took over in this Province, just one string of failures after the other. So, Mr.

Chairman, we have no alternative on this side of the House when the administration are asking for three months supply,or $600 million to carry on the 972

March 26, 1984 Tape 364 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: s·arne tired, worn out policies. So we have to take advantage of the situation to try to persuade the administration there opposite that they are on a disaster course, that they are going to ruin the economy of this Province, that they are g~ing to push Newfoundland over the brink and into oblivion forever. Mr. ~hairrnan, we h~ve an incredible financial mess brought about by the mismanagement and the incompetence of the adrnipistration there opposite and .that is : why we have to debate the Interim Supply Bill the way we are debating it.

So now I go back to how I started my few remarks there a couple of moments ago, and that is , Mr. Chairman, to point out to the House the fact that the administration there opposite,led by the han. gentlernan,prornised the people of this Province back in 1979, in a provincial general election_ MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: No-, when he was elected leader. When he was elected leader. Yes, when he was elected leader of the party just prior to the election, and then during the election ~epeated his promise. And what was his promise, Mr. Chairman? What was the han. gentleman's promise?

To show you what kind of a track record the han. gentleman has, his promise was that ninety days after he became Premier of this Province the oil refinery at Corne By Chance would reopen, ninety days. 1·,471 days ago. the han. gentleman made that promise. MR. TULK: No, 1, 4 72. MR. NEARY: Leap Year,that is ·right. My han. colleague is a~solutely right. I made a mistake here in my calculation.

As this is a Leap Year, 1,472 days ago the han. gentleman -~ade a promise the same as he did on April 6, 1982 1 when he promised the people of this Province if they gave him a mandate the han. gentleman would deliver an offshore agreement. 973

March 26, 1984 Ta9e No. 365 . MJ - l MR. NEARY: ~~d now they are hedging on that, they are saying now they cannot deliver an offsho.re agreement, they are going to wait until after the next federal election. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman was not given a mandate to play political games. ~~R.. ~UL::C: . Tell them ~:~hctt Hr. !'Ulronev said tonay .· MR. NEARY: ~'Vhat did Mr. ~1ulroney say today about it? Re .ad the Evening Tel egr am toda y and see what Mr. 1-l:ulro .ney said about it. He said that it is very unlikely - Mr.

Chairman, listen to this .- it is very unlikely- do you have his exact quote there? - ver y unlikely that Mr. Trudeau even if he wanted to could give the resource back to the Province. HP .• TUL:C: "ho says that? MR.

NEARY: 'The federal PC leader sa ys he feels the ~ "tremendous wealth" of Newfoundland's offshore resources should "fli..rs1!: and forerrost" :' benefit the Province, which in his opinion has ~~not gotten a fair share from Canada so far." Mulroney stated his position in a meeting with the Financial Post's editorial staff .• 'Mulroney said after the Supreme Court of Canada ruled Newfoundland did not have jurisdiction over its offshore resources, he 1•'ent to the !!ouse of Commons and encouragedEnergy Minister Jean Chretien to immediately llsend a signal ~ to the Province to start negotiations.

The basis of such negotic.tion::>, '~ulroney- ~sad.:d, must be that 'benefits go principally to the people of Newfoundland." In considering the issue he has come to the conclusion' -listen to this .. Mr. Chairman, I want the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and the hon . the Premier to hear this - 'In considering the issue, he said, 'he has come to the conclusion that the federal government mush ensure early development of the resource and devise a formula that ensures ~ewfoundland and Labrador will be the first to benefit.' 974

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 365 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: 'Mulroney said he doesn't anticipate the federal government giving Newfoundland jurisdiction of the offshore.' ~~R. TULK: Who? MR. NEARY: Mr. Mulroney, the great Tory, the hopeful, the great white knight on horseback, the saviour of the Tory party,so we are led to believe by the crowd there opposite. 'Mulroney said he doesn't anticipate the federal government'- and listen to this, Mr. Chairman, just listen-" .•. the day when the Prime Minister can sign a piece of paper and say I am hereby giving you the offshore ... that's gone," he said.' Let me repeat that, Mr.

Chairman. What did the Tory leader say, the one that they are placing their hope in? He says, " ..• the day when the Prime Minister can sign a piece of paper and say I am hereby ~iving you the affshore •.. . that's gone." 'Even if the Prime Minister did say that, Mulroney said, he could "no longer deliver the goods" if the provinces said no.' Mr. Chairman, do I have to repeat that again?

Because I am afraid I have not got the e;;r of the han. gentleman. 'Even if the Prime Minister did say that, Mulroney said, he could "no longer deliver the goods" if the provinces :said no.' If the provinces said no they could not deliver the goods. ~d now they are telling us - and now he is leaving .. ~To wonder he is running away. After Question Period every day he scoots out of the House, Mr. Chairman. He cannot stand the heat. 'Even if the Prime Minister did say that, 'l.e could "no longer deliver the goods" if the provinces said no.' So what are we talking about, 975

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 365 MJ - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman? We are talking about a Constitutional change which will be vitually impossible to bring about at the moment because you have to get the agreement of at least seven provinces of Canada. And so that is gone down the tube. Now what are they going to hang their hat on next? The Premier said he·would deliver an ,agreement, 'Give me a mandate.' Just the same as he said 1 I will open the oil refiner~ 1,382 days ago,if you give me a mandate. ~~d 1,382 days later the _oil refinery is being scrapped and taken away and sold.

The taxpayers of this Province have lost $47 million or more because of transfer of ownership, because of changes in the agreement that were made by the Moores administration, another Tory administration. They cannot deny that, ~x. Chairman, and the han. gentleman, as I said during the Question Period, cannot hide behind the fact ·that Orders-in-Council are not for public consumption. What silly nonsense. What silliness, Mr. Chairman. I will bring up some Orders-in-Council from my files tomorrow. ;·~. DI~T"!: Where will you get them? MR. NEARY: Do~m in my office. Mr.

Chairman, I did not get them c'lcMn at . the telephone company. I am not on the payroll of the telephone company or I was not before and after I became a member of the Cabinet. MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: I ~.;as not a I!!UShrcx:rn grower either. I am not being bribed by the telephone comp~ny, Mr. Chairman. 976

March 26,1984 Tape No. 366 ah-1 MR.NEARY: so if I were the hon. gentleman I would just keep quite. The Orders-in-Council, Mr. Chairman, to which I refer are public information, they are in the public domain. So the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) can very easily lay on the table of this House the Orders-in-Council showing the changes that they have made. I have them somewhere in my file if ~ can only find them. MR.CHAIRMAN (A ylward ): The hon. member's .time has elapsed. and Ma,npower. MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, we are supposed to be on Interim Supplybut the hon.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) sets the tone for the debate just about every d~y and I would like to deal with a couple of the points that he attempted to make. With respect to O~ders-in-Council. The hon. gentleman knows that Orders-in-Council are generally not public documents. The only ones that I know were public documents were back in his day,when Mr. John. C.Doyle would go around with an Order-in-Council saying , 'I have here from the Newfoundland government $119 million.' MR.SIMMS: Where would he carry it? MR.DINN: He carried it around in his back pocket,given to him by Joey.

The hon. member did not know what was going on even though he was in Cabinet but these things used to be given out, Orders­ in-Council, so tnat rtr. Doyle could go over to Europe and peddle that to build a linerboard mill. He would go over with an Order-in-Council saying, 'I have $119 million that the Newfoundland government 977

March 26,1984 Tape No. 366 ah-2 · MR.DINN: will guarantee and now I can build a refinery. Come on over to Newfoundland, I mean,these guys are easy pickings. And now he is bringing up another smoke sc~een here tqday .with resp~ct to · the refinery. Well,let us have a look at what happened with the refinery. Mr. Smallwood signed an ·agreement with Mr. Shaheen and the agreement basically said, here is $35 million~that we will give you, approximately $35 million,plus any interest that accrues bec~use of giving that $35 million cheque to Mr.

Shaheen 1 here it is, go on out now and see if you can build an oil refinery for us out there in Come By Chance. You can have the land and you can have whatever else you need. And if there are any worries in the money markets of the world about this refinery we will guarantee it, the Newfoundland government will gu~rantee every penny any b<:-nk, Kleinwort, Benson or ECGD may put in jeopardy on that refinery. Here is $35 million and we will pay for that, do not worry about that and here is an agreement whereby we will guarantee any losses or .anything else on that refinery. Well, Mr.

Chairman, that was another complete disaster in this country and if we had held to that agreement, if that agreement had not been changed , which it was, but if that agreement had held when the refinery went bankrupt we would be on the hook now for $600 million. That is what this ·Province would be on the hook for and the Province would almost have to declare bankruptcy,or it would have to pay out this $600 million. But what happened? MR.SIMMS: That is not the way he described it. 978

March 26,1984 Tape No. 366 ah-3 MR. DINN: This is not the way the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) describes it, no. But he is talking about Orders-in-Council. Yes, Orders-in-Council were fairly regular things in those days. MR. SIMMS: Yes, I know. MR. DINN: Mr. Smallwood would go down in front of the London window and he would be having a Cabinet meeting by himself as the former Minister of Finance, Mr. Crosbie, would say. He would have his Cabinet meeting and he would make out his little Orders-in-Council. One for Mr.

Doyle saying, 'Here is $119 million, go over and pay it to Latin Europe and we will guarantee anything. Go out and build a linerboard mill in Stephenville.' And, 'Come on in,Mr. Shaheen, we have lots of money. You do not have to take any chances with us. Here is $35 million. We will c.over all the interest. And not only that,if there is even a thought that there might be a loss~ SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR.MARSHALL: We will pick it up. MR.DINN: I mean,hon. members will get the documents because the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) has asked the Clerks of the House to put all this together.

It is all there in documented form and the hon. member can read it. It is about that thick 1 it will all be put together for the hen. member but he will not read it. He will go around in his little smoke screen. He goes around like that little fellow on 'Peanuts.' What do you call that little 979

March 26,1984 Tape No. 366 ah-4 MR. DINN: fellow on Peanuts that goes around in a cloud all the time? Well, that is like the hon. member over the~e. ·He goes around ,in his little cloud. But that is basicall~ 980

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 367 SD - 1 MR. DINN: what happened in the refinery thing. Just to explain to the hon. member again, $35 million up front and,' go out, Mr. Shaheen, we will guarantee. anything else4' Now that is what happened. So they went out and they got their money and they built a refinery. · We:tl, Mr. Shaheen Caf!l~ in again .one day ·-'tO the former administration, Mr. Moores, and he said; 'Mr. Moores 1 we are going to build a petroch .emical complex. How do you like that?' Well. Mr. Moores says, 'Well,we are an the hook for anything that you do out there now. If you have ali of this arranged, Mr.

Shaheen, why do we not change this agreement so that we are not on the hook? I mean, we have to build roads and water and sewer,and we have things that the government has to do. We cannot be on the hook for the oil refinery at Come By Chance. 'And Shaheen, in his great, big way 1 ' says, 'Well, there is no problem there, Mr. Premier, we can change that. Get your boys up and we can do another agreement·' So up came the phone and the lawyers came in and did a new agreement.

Well 1 as · a result of that agreement,we were on the hook for the original $35 million because that was already paid out,but we were on the hook for nothing else after that. Okay,so what happened? Mr. Shaheen signed the new agreement, the Newfoundland government ~as off the hook. It ;is all th .ere. The Clerks of the House will get it together for the han. member. He should know about it. It is all public, you know, the press know it, the people of Newfoundland know it. And then what happened?

So we are on the hook for $35 million,and wear~ still on the hook for that, we are still paying the interest on that and so on. That is what we are on the hook for out in Come By Chance, But if we had gone :Oy the way the agreement was originally written,we would be on the hook for $600 million. Now does everybody hear that? Is that clear to everybody? If we had remained in the same agreement as signed by the 961

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 367 SD - 2 MR. DINN: han. member's former leader, Mr. Smallwood ,we would have been on the hook for $600 million, approximately ,plus or minus · a few cents. That is what happened. The han. members like to get up and downgrade 'and say things about Mr. 'Moores' bait, what Mr .. Moores did was basically renegotiate that so that he saved this Province $565 million that we are not on the hook for today ·. That is o,n~ of those deals that we are not on th .e hook for. So, Mr. Chairman, that was renegotiated •.

We are still on the hook for $35 million, way back, plus the interest on that, We are still on the ·hook for that and, of course, we will never get out of debt for the things · the . hon. members have done. And we did the same thing with the Upper Churchill, of course, we had to buy · back our rights there. But that is basically what happened and, yes,at that point in time Orders-in-Councils were a fairly free thing, you see. Mr. Doyle used to have them in his · back pocket and 0ne Order~in-Council was worth $119 million or-thereabouts, you know, plus or minus a few cents. Mr.

Shaheen used to get them and he would put his in his back pocket with the $35 million cheque, he would go over and negotiate a deal with the money markets · of the world, whether it be the Export Credits Guarantee Department of Great Britain or Kleinworth Benson or whoever 1 he would get them all to come over 1 and 1 'Do not worry · about it,boys,because she is all guaranteed'. MR. SIMMS: And bring them down to the private dining room. MR. D:;I:NN: Oh, yes, they would go down to the private dining room and they would drink up a few glasses of wine and ~·7i3 .lk off with their $119 million, no problem.

And who would not start a business on that basis? 'Does the hon. gentleman was to start a refinery tomorrow? Here is $35 million, and anything th.at is a possibility you might lose we will 982

March 26, 1984 Tape 368 EC - 1 MR. DINN: guarantee it and the people of Newfoundland will pay the cheque. Do not worry about it. Go on over and see what you can do.' MR. SHill-iS: I might give it serious consideration i£ you have a couple of minutes. MR. DINN: Certainly. Okay. Well, you know, unfortunately, that kind o£ a deal is not in place right now. Han. members or people in the investment community or private entrepr~neurs can come into this government now and put their proposals there. He will have a look at them.

There might be some assistance that the government can give through a truly recognized prograr:rre. I mean, there are none o£ these under the table jobs anymore and there are no Cabinet meetings held down in front of The London, New York and Paris in front of the mirror down there. It is all done .fairly according to correct procedure, you know, according to the parliamentary government we have in place today; it is not a one-man rule anymore.

And that is basically what Haeres, I gue3s, \Jill be given credit for in this Province, for bringing Qe~ocracy back to this Province whereby all the elected people in this Province have a say in what the Hell is going on around here. And the hon. member is quite right: In his day it was relatively easy, it was an easy thing to get an Order-in-Council. Their Orders-in-Council were worth fortunes. Can you imagine an Order-in-Council to build a linerboard mill for about $119 million, to walk off with it to build a linerboard ~ill? !·1R • S H1MS : There was nothing to it. How much was the mushroom factory worth? MR.

DINN: Well, I mean, we are not going to get into the mushroom factory. The hon. member has 983

March 26, 1984 Tape' 368 EC - 2 MR. DINN: some information here. I vmuld like to have rrore time. We only get ten minutes in these debates, Mr. Chairman, and I suppose we will have another ten minutes when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) or somebody else gets up and brings up ~~ese red herring that he is always bringing up; you know, Orders-in-Council are all over the place. They are down in the barber shop and they are in wash rooms over in Halifax1where he gets some more of his informatioDt or down in Panama. It used to be that way. Mr.

Doyle used to have the odd one in his back pocket worth a few coppers that he could peddle. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. DINN: My time has expired, Mr. Chairman? Well, thank you very much. I will get back at the hon. member a little later. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Leader of the It is really sad and pathetic indeed when the only defence the administration has, when the only spokesman they can put up to defend their incompetence and their mismanagement is the likes of what we just heard.

The little fellow, all he can do is - I suppose he learned how to plug in a telephone when he was down with the telephone company. He may have learned to plug in a telephone but I have grave doubts. But is that the best that they can put up, Mr. Chairman? to lower the debate in this House to about the lowest level that I have ever seen debate sink, Mr. Chairman. The administration should hang their heads in shame if he is all they have to put up as their spokesman, the likes of him -low class; no stature, no class, no 984

March 26, 1984 MR. NEARY: just rotten to the core . nothing else about that . recognize him. MR. HODDER : MR. NEARY : Tape 368 EC - 3 intelligence, Mr . Chairman, So therefore I will say I should not eve .n bother to Do not stoop to that level. ~o, I should not stoop to that level.if that is the way they are going to rebut our charges in our debates, Mr. Chairman. At least the member for Trinity North U·1r . Brett) had sense enough that when he is not fami~iar with a 985

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 36 ·9 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: subject, he has sense enough to sit there and not get embroiled or involved in something that is over his head. The hon. g~ntlemari, Mr. Chairma~ who just took his seat showed what an ignorant incompetent he is when it comes to this matter MR. SIMMS: Unparliamentary. MR. NEARY : - it is parliamentary- when it comes to the matter of the oil refi nery. So that is enough, I am not going to say anything else about that. But, Mr.

Chairman, in due course the story of hm¥" the changes were made back in the 1970s by the Moores Administration, the previous Tory Administration, will get out. And not only changes made, Mr. Speaker, but I have to point out to han. members of this House . - are their memories that short that they do not remember? - I should not have to reminn them - MR. CARTER: Who are you talking about? MR. NEARY: - that on the board of directors of these companies was none other than three prominent Tories. MR. CARTER: Who? MR. NEARY: Who were they? Mr. Crosbie, Judge Hickman, and Senator Doody were on for Newfoundland. MR.

CARTER: MR. NEARY: You do not ha ve to criticize them for it . Mr. Chairman, I am saying they were on there to protect the taxpayers' interest, to protect the Province, that is why they were put on there, three honourable and brave gentlemen. And, Mr. Chairman, I might point out again for the benefit of han. members of this House,when the biggest bankruptcy in the world was looming 986

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 369 NM ~ 2 MR. NEARY: on the horizon, not one of these gentlemen on the board of directors of these two companies knew the circumstances of the bankruptcy. MR. CARTER: Sure ~hey did. MR. NEARY: They did not. MR. CARTER: They knew he would not pay for his oil. He never paid for his oil first nor last. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, as I say,the story will come out in due course. I have all the information somewhere in my file. I have the Order-in-Council.

I was just going through my old records ther~ I will find it eventually, that back in the 1970s, because of transfer of shares, because of a change in the status of the company, the Moores Administration, the previous Tory administration, let the owners off the hook. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have my own suspicions as to why that happened. I have my own suspicions, because at the time, if hon. gentlemen will remember, at the time in this House we had a debate on the oil refinery and on Ataka.

And, if hon. gentlemen will recall,I asked the Premier of that day if he had ever heard of Ataka before the oil refinery went bankrupt 1 and he told me that he had not. And so,if han. gentlemen will recall again,I trotted out a letter and laid it on the table of this House to indicate that Mr. Mooores,who was the Premier at that time ~as aware of Ataka, did knm·T of Ataka, even though han •. gentlemen there opposite may not have. And how do I know that, 14r. Chairman? Well, I have here in my possession a letter that was sent to Mr.

Moores on August 29, 1974, prior to the oil refinery going bankrupt, when he kept telling this House he was not familiar with Ataka. I will read the letter just to refresh han. gentlemen's memory. 987

March 26, 19 84 Tape No . 369 NM - 3 MR . NEARY : "Your Excellency Premier Moores : I would .like to take the liberty of submitting to you a general proposal for the development of the iron ore resources of the Julian Lake deposit as attached herewith . Since this proposal is based on information gathered from the steel mills of Japan .who have studied the Julian Lake deposit from the general information which they have gathered from reports of the Wabush Lake project and the Wabush Iron Ore Company, and Carroll Lake project, 988

March 26, 1.984 Tape 370 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: uwhose operations are adjacent to Julian Lake deposits,and because the geographical, physical and climatical conditions are similar,we feel that the layouts equipment anq the estimate cost .s are very realistic, except for the fact that it must be understood that all estimates are subject for review and adj"ustmemts when actual feasibility studies have been completed. I would appreciate it very much if_ you would kindly study the proposal and give me your candid opinion and comment , so that this proposal could be refined further.'' Now who is that signed by?

Now,remember this letter was written before the oil ref ·inery went bankrupt, before the administration opposite then cared to admit that they even heard about Ataka. ·Now who is this signed by, this letter to the Premier? It is signed by non other than Mr. s. Takagi, Managing Director of Atak~ Company Limited, Mr. Chairman. So we. can see, Mr. Chairman, the wheeling and dealing that was going on in the Cabinet at that time.

And we can see how deals were being made with the Japanese over the Julian Lake iron ore deposits, while at the same time they were turning a blind eye to what was happening in the refinery because the Japanese felt that by giving these unsecured loans and guarantees for the refinery that they were investing in their long-term future in this Province. MR. CARTER: Would the hom. Leader permit a question? A serious question? MR. NEARY: Sure I will permit a question. MR. CHAIRMAN (Ayl:ward) : The hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) on a question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave. MR.

CARTER: A serious question to the han. Leader of the Opposition. Does he,in his opinion, believe that 989

March 26, 1984 Tape 370 PK - 2 MR. CARTER: John Shaheen ever intended to pay for any of the oil that he got and contracted from the Japanese? MR. CP..AIR.."1AN -'(Aylward) : MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, that is a question I cannot answer. That ques.tion would be better directed towards Mr. Shaheen. But I do have to say this to the hon. gentleman; the hon. gentleman will remember _,.this debate because he was here 1 that the Premier of that day cannot plead ignorant, cannot say that he did not kn .ow what was going on.

Now the three gentlemen who were on the Board of Directors,Messrs. Crosbie, Doody, and Hickman, may not have known what was going on because Mr. Moores was going around behind their backs wheeling and dealing with the Japanese, making deals with the Japanese, Mr. Chairman. And I do not what _to rehash that debate over again 1 but I raise this merely to illustrate to the House, Mr. Chairman, that there was an agreement, a firm agreement whereby the taxpayers' invesbrents in that refinery were protected, and the administration there opposite gave up the final say, gave up their right.

The three gentlemen who were on the Board of Directors at that time 1Crosbie, Doody and Hickman, Mi. Chairman, in my opinion, did not keep the administration fully informed as to what was happening in connection with that refinery. Maybe they were disinterested,maybe they did not want to have anything to do with a Liberal project or a Smallwood project, but the fact of the matter is that· there was three members on the Board of Directors representing the provincial government. MR. CARTER: from Shaheen, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: ,They could never get answers Mr.

Chairman, they were on the Board of Directors and no money could be spent on the construction of that refinery without their say-so or no transfer of shares. The . status of the company could not change without an 990

March 26, 1984 Tape 370 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Order-in-Council, that is what I am trying to tell the hon. member. MR. CARTER,: from Shaheen. MR. NEARY: We could never get any answers Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman says, 'We could never get the answers. 1 The fact of the matter is that the hon. gentleman was in the driver's seat. MR. CARTER: MR .. NEARY: supporting was. I was not. Well 1 the administration that he is MR. CARTEP..~ MR. NEARY: No, they were not. They =uld get no cooperation fran Shaheen. · And they let it go, Mr. Chairman, they let the final say go.the same ?~ ~hey did with EPA. MR •.

DINN: And saved $600 million. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. MARSHALL: Orucr, _please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Chairman, actually we could have sat down and passed Interim Supply , I suppose, really. Does the hon. gentleman wish to pass Interim Supp~y? MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. MARSHALL: Does the hon. gentleman wish to pass Interim Supply? MR. NEARY: Well, if you do not wish to say anything, I ~ill get up and speak again. MR. MARSii;ALL: Well,okay. Mr.

Chairman, nothing gets the hon. gentleman going more than to have to get up nnd come to the defense of John Shaheen • I mean 1that is all, just mention John Shaheen, Mr. Chairman, and the hon. gentleman is off in orbit. This particular refinery and the position we are in now is another example of the lack of sensible development plans that this administration and the previous administration 991

March 26, 1984 Tape 370 PK - 4 MR . MARSHALL: was left to try to unravel. I want to deal with one thing though that shows the hon. gentlem .an understands the subsequent ~ons any more than he understood the initial ones because,remember,that t~is refinery was originally,as the member ~or Placentia (Mr . Patterson) indicated to me,envisaged on the carriage of orange juice , They were going to take - imagine anything so absolutely cr;zy~ -they were going to refine oil here and bring it down South , down to Panama or wherever it may be, 992

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 371 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and that they were going to unload the ships and they were going to bring orange juice back to the people of this Province. Now,can you imagine, Mr. Chai:tman; anything more sensible in this day and age as you look backward and you see that the han. gentleman supported a proposed industry that was going to bring orange juice to the people of this Province, Mr. Chairman~ The hon. gentleman has been juiced up ever since on Mr. Sqaheen. What a great imperial concept that was.

That was the nature and extent of the depth of the enquiry into the feasibility of that particular project. Now it is too bad the hon. gentleman is going,because there is one thing that I do want to draw to this attention, which he just does not understand,which is apparent by the words that he is uttering here. He thinks that the so-called transfer I of the shares somehow or other were detrimental to this Province. The transfer of those shares, Mr. Chairman, resulted in this Province being freed from a liability of between $140 million and $200 million.

Kleinwort, Benson were the financiers of that project,and,as the project was set up it was set up as a holding company,and it was only set up as a holding company by the han. administration there opposite for the purpose of tax protection from federal taxes to this particular project. So the shares were held at the ~ime by the government of the Province with an option to repurchase by Shaheen as soon as the indebtedness was repaid at a nominal sum, purely and simply for the purpose of tax protection.

And there was never any real ownership in the sense that there was a beneficial ownership in the shares of that particular corporation, because it was protected with an option, and 993

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 371 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: an option to,as I say, to transfer them so there was a tax benefit because it was a provincially owned corporation in the pure technical, legal sense and the project could operate 1if it operated · with a profit without paying taxes. MR. CARTER: A tax benefit to Shaheen. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, a tax bene ·fi t to Shaheen, and of course we know,very sadly,it never operated as a profit, it operated ata loss. But that was the reason for it. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the so-called transfer of the shares, whatthe transfer of the shares di~, and they were achieved by the Moores Administration in its early ~days, in effect the transfer of the shares relieved this Province of a very substantial and considerable liability. It was an exercise in great dexterity in itself in order to achieve this particular transfer.

And what happened was this: There was at I the time discussion, I do not know how 1 in the name of Heaven, anyone ever contemplated an extension to the refinery, an extension to what happened to be a defunct refinery, At the time when the refinery was being opened, we remember with what hoopla and fanfare it was opened, with the ~ being used, and people going down to New York and getting on the QE II and coming up to Come By Chance. I unde~stand the QE II has never been paid for first nor last.

But at the time of the opening it was agreed,with the approva~ of the people who provided the financing, Kleinwort, Benson, that the shares be transferred away from the government of this Province to the people who were the beneficial ownel!s. 994

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 371 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Chai:cnan, the net result of that is this, that it fre .ed this government from a -liability of about $140 million. In fact ,it fre .ed this ·government from · the liability which Kleinwort :, :Benson .and . t.he .financie -rs had ultimately to shoulder themselves. Because you . see, Mr. Chairman, the Government of Newfo~dland would have 1 in a legal sense 1 owned those shares 1 there would have been in effect, although there may be a· lot of people may want to argue about legalities and all the rest of it, but it would have put th is Province in a position of having to honour 995

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 372 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: the indebtedness of that .crown corporation in the event of a default 1 purely and simply because it was a Crown corporation. Now people can say 1 because it was a Crown corporation 1 it was the corporation which owned the debt and not the- government 1 but it is a fact that it would be very difficult indeed ~or any government to allow a corporation in which it had shares to go into bankruptcy and not honour the debt. So,as I say ,the han. gentleman never understood the project at its inception. You mention Shaheen and, you know, he just goes bonkers.

We are talking about Interim Supply and the estimates and the hon. gentleman wants to talk about past history and Shaheen. But even though he is talking about past history and Mr. Shaheen, Mr. Chairman, we cannot allow to remain on the record the inexactitudes which will result as a result of accepting what the hon. gentleman i:s putting forth. In actual fact 1 the hon. gentleman, as· I unders·tand him, is saying that somehow we lost our rights by transferring of those shares. In actual fact we were bound to transfer those shares anyway; if there had been a profit we would have lost them anyway.

But the real test was, Mr. Chairman, before th .e loss· actually occurred, what happened is the shares were transferred and as a result of that there was a saving of liability. And it was a considerable saving of liability because this Province today would be th .e poorer by $140 million to $~00 million as a result of that. MR. CALLAN : More than that. MR. MARSHALL: Even more than that, the ho~. ~entleman agrees. MR. CALLAN: Yes, because of the Premier's procrastination on the offshore. MR. MARSHALL: Well,anyway,the han. gentleman is about as sensible as his leader,and that is not saying too muchr you know. 996

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 372 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: But that is the situation. As r say, the han. gentleman wants to talk in the past. We are talking today about Interim supply, we are talking about the estimates of 1984. We are not talking about Mr. Shaheen,who is long since gone, thank God. We are not even talking about the culpable negligence that the han. gentleman was a party to when he was on this side of the House. What we are talking about, Mr. Chairm'>n, is Interim Supolv, and I invite the members of the Opposition to do the same. As I said on Friday, the han. Minister of Finance (_Dr.

Collins} has delivered his budget. In that budget there are many beneficial items 't.hat are there for th.e purpose of debate. There is the hospital construction at Salt Pond; there is the continuance of the Clarenville hospital; there is th.e continuance of the planning with respect to the Central Newfoundland Hospital; there is the finalization of the hospital in the Leader of the Opposition's (J1r. Neary) district, in Channel - Port aux Basques, which is about to be opened.

There is plenty of room there for debate w·ith respect to th.e new super fi'sh company and the implications of that and its affect upon the people of this Province. There is the possibility of debate with respect to the initiatives taken, through the Minworth Corporation, to reactivate the mines in St. Lawrence. There is a possibility of debate with respect to the new graving dock that is being made possible as a result of a contribution by this government to'the capital cost thereof. And it is a disgrace 1 I might add, Mr.

Chairman, that the government has to do it because that is a federal Crown corporation, CN. And 1 once again, in order to get the federal agency to comply with its obligations- and I have to say that this federal agency is· very sympathic to the people of this Province and would wish to get it from the federal governmen~- - the provincial government has had to jump in again as it did with respect to th.e synchrolift. 997

March 26 '· 19,84 Tape .No. 372 so. -3 MR. CHAIRMAN (.KcNicholas) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: So there is that to debate, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please~ The bon. member's t±me has elapsed. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just invite the bon. gentlemen there opposite to talk about relevancies of tlle day. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. BARRY: The bon, member-for M.ount Scio. Mr.

C.hairman, it seems that at this stage the only \.;ay that the Come By Chance refinery might be saved wou.ld be for the goverrun·ent to· sit down and negotiate an agreem.ent with the federal goverrunent with respect to. the 6ffsho're1and to see that one of the conditions of such an agreement , a condition which the federal goverrunent should .be susceptible to in terms of maintaining local content in terms of getting probably the 998

March 26,1984 · Tape No. 3 7 3 ah-1 MR.BARRY: most efficient method of utilization and refining of the product of Hibernia,one of the conditions should be that we have a indigenous oil refinery, an oil refinery operational within the Province of Newfoundland. Now that has always been'one of.the basic premises which I understood government to take, that government would not participate in or co-o .perate in any plan for the development of the Hibernia oil field 1or of other oil fields for that matter 1if discovered 1which would not see an operating oil refinery'within this Province.

I believe it is incumbent upon government to indicate whether it has changed its position now, wl\ether 1 if it has th,e opportunity of negotiating an arrangement with respect to offshore development, whether with the current government or with a future government, has it scraped the notion of having an operational oil refinery in this Province?

If that is still an important consideration for government,then I submit that this latest development of Petro Canada,indicating that it wishes to scrap the refinery, this latest development is another indication of the imperative urgency of this government sitting down with the Government of Canada and negotiating a deal with respect to the offshore. HR. CA..~TER: What kind of a deal can 'ile have when we have lost everything? MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, if that were the attitude there would not be very much done with respect to the offshore.

I would wonder,then,why the government has decided , for example, to maintain the Petroleum Directorate? Obviously there is the hope and the anticipation and the expectation,as there'sho~ld 999

March 26,1984 Tape No. 373 ah-2 MR.BARRY: be, that there can be a deal made with the federal government. Now the member opposite, the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) apparently must have spent the weekend ~eading Mr. Jackson's

article in the Evening Telegram 1 which was carried as an editorial statement by the Evenihg Telegram. And I must say it just goes to show the simplistic analysis of the Evening Telegram on the offshore issue. I can understand Professor Jackson,who might not have been involved all that long on the offshore until he became convinced by the regular propaganda sheets that are produced by the Premier, but I have some difficulty in understanding how the Evening Telegram could accept such a simplistic statement of the offshore position. I had the opportunity to write a little letter to the editor in reply after reading this

article and if the House does not mind I will just read this. I will be happy to table it if the House so wishes, Mr.Chairman. It is addressed to the editor of the Evening Telegram, St. John's. I do not know when it will be carried. I hope it will be carried before we get an opportunity to debate the 1 OD-D

March 27, 1984 Tape No. 37 4 MJ - l MR. BARRY: Private Member's resolution of the member for St. Mary's- The Ca,pes (Mr. Hearnl_,which is the first resolution corning up on the Order Paper this Wednesday,on the offshore,to be followed. by my own resolution in two weeks time. I said, 'Dear Sir: Professor Jackson's analysis of the offshore resources issue carried in your paper on March 24, 1984 was disappointing. Like him I disagree with the conclusions of the Supreme Court of Canada.

Unlike him I bel·ieve that we can do something in the near future to bring about agreement with the federal government and Constitutional change to reverse the effects of the court's decision. Professor Jackson contradicts himself. · On the one hand he states that no agreement is nmT possible with the federal government, on the other he suggests that our only salvation lies in having a political will. The political will to do what? Apparently to bring about Constitutional change. Does he think such change is possible without agreement? The Jackson analysis was flawed by several unsupportable assumptions.

First he refers to "those who have plotted to deprive us of our resources and kee p us poor". In the same vein he mentions, uthe infamous and despicable pressure of a centralist thinking regime!'. Now in the thirteen years that I have been involved in the offshore cause,I met many who disagreed with my view of the law and with my concept of \'lhich govermnent powers should be held by the provinces and which by the federal government.

But their disagreement was the result of beliefs sincerel y held rather than of any sinister p~ot. t Second, Professor Jackson assumes that to be a true Newfoundlander one must avoid questioning whether the Peckford administration is approaching the offshore issue in the proper fashion. He decides that the Premier has integrity and sincerity,and he ignores the criticism that the Premier,by his image of confrontation 1001

March 27, 1984 ·Tape No. 374 MJ - 2 MR. BARRY: •and inflexibility,may have done more harm than good in the task of explaining the justice of Newfoundland's case to our fellow Canadians. Those who question the effectiveness of the image projected by the Premier are, he believes, fragmenting and weakening Newfoundland's cause.'Indeed,' says our philosophy professor, 'they are all either "political enemies of Mr.

Peckford" or "activists and lobbyists whose business it is to blame governments for everything anyway" or "cowardly pessimists" or "politically ambitious to cash in on New;foundland's present vulnerability" or "carping" or "cynical or resentful" or'- and this is the real laugh, this is supported by the Evening Telegr ·am, by the way -'or wishing to '. 1'advance media careers".' He lashes into the Newfoundland journalists and says that all of their comments are obviously designed to advance media careers, and the Evening Tele gram's editors support this.

I think the editors should have a little chat with their reporters. 'And I thought that attributing base motives to those with whom one disagreed had been discarded as a valid philosophical tool for discrediting arguments. What,I wonder,is the professor's view of the place of an Opposition in today's democracy? Does he believe that people cannot have the same objectives as the Premier and be just as interested in promoting Newfoundland's interests,but be concerned about whether he is going about things in the right way?

IThird, Professor Jackson wrongly assumes that the Newfoundland Government can now make an agreement with the federal government only by impliedly assenting to the Supreme Court of Canada's view of Newfoundland's historic status. I say 1002

March 26, 1984 Tape 375 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: llwe can, if we have the political will to do so, negotiate an agreement with the federal government which, if it did not immediately lead to the full package of rights associated with ownership, could contain a clause expressly disavowing the court's con­ clusions and reserving our entitlement to continue to work through the political process for constitutional recognition of such rights.

And if the professor is saying that Newfoundland can never -negotiate an adequate agreement with the federal government until the latter acknowledges our entitlement to full ownership, I say we will never know until we tr,y. Professor Jackson's state­ ment that "All -ci:1e miG.G.le ground has been swept away by the decision," is the traditional cry of the political extremist. The Premier was prepared to negotiate on the basis of something less than full ownership before the decision and nothing has changed except that getting a proper deal now may be more difficult.

Our bargaining power may have been weakened by the Supreme Court's decision and the loss of legal rights but it ' has not been destroyed. Our moral and political rights remain. 11 The Peckford administration should be engaged in a cross-Canada media campaign to convince other Canadians of the equity of our cause and to put political pressure on before the next federal election." I have just another paragraph to go. "The Premier should request the federal government to immediately recommence negoti­ ations. It will not be necessary to accept whatever is offered" - 1003

March 26, 1984 Tape 375 EC - 2 IIR. TOBIN: What is this? MR. BARRY: It is a Letter to the Editor. "The federal goverrunent should show its sincerity by indi~ating a willingness to sweeten its last offer" - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: listen now. I think hon. members should MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! MR. BARRY: "The federal goverrunent should show its sincerity" MR. CHAIRMAN: elapsed. MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Smill HON . HIJ.lBERS : MR. BARRY: t1R. CARTER: MR. BARRY: Order, please! The hon. member's time has Just four or five more lines - By leave. No. m'1at? Not by leave?

By leave, yes. Thank you, just to finish the letter. It is a great letter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no! MR. CHAIRMAN: elapsed. The hon. member's time has The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just a word or two on the hon. member's comments. He has a bit of an advantage in that he had his remarks all written out and no doubt he sat down over the weekend and laboured over them, revised them and rewrote them and so on and so forth, so his comments sound very good. But I think that if one looks at many of them, you really have to wonder.

For instance, one of the remarks he made was, 'Where does the professor think the Opposition stands?' You know, it is alright 1004

March 26, 1984 Tape 375 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS: for the Opposition to take various positions because that is a duty of the Opposition. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is what we have always said in this House, that this is a matter where all Newfoundlanders have to support a supportable position and our position has been a supportable position.

It has been presented to editors across the country and they have supported it, it has been presented to people in the petroleum industry across the country and they have supported it, it has been presented to most, if not all, of the provincial governments,and most, if not all of them have supported it. So ours is a supportable position and our situation is that if you read our proposal, can you point out where there is something wrong with it? And no one has ever actually pointed out anything wrong with the proposals that we have put on the table. So we say that we have supportable proposals there.

Now, the hon. member's argument still is, 'Oh, well, that does not matter.' In this issue, the Opposition still has to play its little games, they have to get in a crack here and there. Well, no one objects to the Opposition getting in their crack here and there in the ordinary course of events, but this is not an ordinary course of events, this is a very basic, fundamental thing that is going to have repercussions for our economy in our lifetime and in our children's lifetimes. And if the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) feels that this is fair game just for little Opposition jibes and snide remarks, well, I 1005

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 376 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: really think that he should sit down quietly over another weekend and think through really whether he just looks upon the offshore as grist to the Opposition mill. ·Now, . Mr. Chairman; I will not 1 of course 1 hammer too hard on what the member opposite has said at other times. I would just point out though that on November 5, 1980 in Hansard, the member opposite , when he is referring to a letter that was written by Professor Jackson MR. BARRY: When was that? DR.

COLLINS: That was on November 5, 1980, and he refers to the letter, 11 I think it is an excellent letter, I must say an excellent letter written by Professor Jackman. I do not know if it has been referred to e·arlier in the course of debate. Has it?'~ Some fellow said. - "Never heard of it." "MR. BARRY: The title given in the Telegram of November 6, 1980,'Trudeau's answer to Smallwood'was deceptive, Do you remember? And Mr. Barry goes on to say, "God bless him, he is a marvellous letter writer." But anyway, Mr.

Chairman, to revert t·o the point I was trying t9 make, I would urge the Opposition not to look upon the offshore as just an ordinary partisan issue and therefore the Opposition has a right to make jibs and jabs and jibes and so on and so forth. This is not an ordinary partisan issue. This is an issue basic to Newfoundland's future, to the future of our children, and to the economic welfare of this Province. 1006

.· March 26, 1984 Tape No. 376 NM 2 DR. COLLINS: Now, Mr. Chairman, the other thing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) said, as though he is making some new statement that has hever been made before, "The Newfoundland Government should sit down and reach an interim agreement in anticipation that. at some point in time we may well in fact get our just rights under the Constitution." Now he s_tates that as sort of pointing a finger of scorn at government as though government is not saying that. we are exactly saying that. we are saying we want an interim agreement until such time as the Constitution is changed.

The only slight twist, and I say slight in a sort of derisive way, the only slight twist we put on it is that we are not going to enter into any interim agreement. We are going to enter into an agreement, we are going to fight for an agreement, we are going to negotiate an agreement, we are going to insist on an agreement that fully protects our rights. We are going to make sure that we have meaningful · management offshore. Because that is the only way that we can protect ourselves and protect the people of this Province.

We are going to make sure that we get a very beneficial revenue sharing arrangement,especiallv in the first years,and later on,when we are up to a national average,then there will be another arrangement as seems necessary by the circumstances pertaining at that time. Now that is the type of agreement we are going to enter into. The fact that there is an opportunity to enter into some sort of an agreement does not mean we are going to rush in. We are going to make sure that we do not sell out our position in the interim as well as ultimately. 1007

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 376 NM- 3 DR. COLLINS: And finally, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member opposite suggests that the government should immediately start a cross-country campaign. Well, you know, I do not really have to tell the member opposite this, that would not be something new. We have been doing cross-country work ever since the offshore was discovered out there.

We have been promoting our position both during the Constitutional talks, during First Ministers 'talks, during the Premier's speeches to various organizations , and various clubs on the I>lainland, and in our regular meetings with other ministers• We put forward our offshore case the whole time. So for the member to sort of imply that he is now giving the government some direction in this matter by saying, "Do you not think it is a great idea to start some sort of cross country campaign?" I mean, you know, that is a little bit laughable.

However, we do disagree with him when he says that we do not need to get the message out to our own people. This message that we are sure is so important has been obscured many, many times. It has been obscured by speeches by the Opposition. It has been obscured by unthinking members, especially in the business sector of this Province. It has been obscured by certain members of the Mainland media. And if the hon. member thinks that I am chasing a ghost 1I will dig him out some of the articles which state things that are totally 1008

.. March 26, 1984 Tape 377 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: untrue and a total distortion of the facts as we here in this Province know them, and .as it has unfortunately also been distorted and obscured by some of the people in our own media who sort of just follow on what federal politicians have said, or what Mainland papers have said, they have just gone along with the same old line sowing doubt. It is a reflection, I think, of a lack· of confidence. You 'nlCM, they think if someone outside of the Province says it, surely it must be right.

If they say something and we say something and the two are different, surely we must be wrong. There is that fatal streak of lack of self-confidence in many Newfoundlanders, I do not detect it now in young Newfoundlanders. Young Newfoundlanders now are willing to stand up for their rights as much as any other youths in the country. So I think that is a dying trend and the sooner it dies the better.

But there is no doubt about it that the people in this Province have to be told time and time aaain, they have be reassured of the facts, they have to have the fact~ · recall to their minds because the average person has many things on his mind. In the ordinary course . cf events, we have to make sure that the truth is known throughout the P~ovince and ·'it is vivid in the people's minds in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, we are going to make sure that Newfoundlanders continually are aware of what we know is right about the offshore case.

We are going to make sure that the Canadian nation understands our case well. we are going to fight for an a~t, an interim agreement in the meantime,but it is going to be a good agreement. And,finally 1we are absolutely convinced that the Canadian nation will ultimately give us in this Province what we rightly deserve. There is no doubt about that. 1009

March 26, 1984 Tape 377 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: The Canadian nation takea its time sometimes to arrive at the right conclusion, but this is a democratic country, it is a country with a tradition of devel~pment ·s in many parts of the country, and I do not think they are ·going to throw that all overboard now, I think that ult .imately ,,in the not too distant future, we will gain the day. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr.

Chairman, I will continue with my letter which, as a matter of courtesy in the normal course of events 1I would have expected members opposite to agree to having it presented, but obviously it is hurting, Mr. Chairman. I am ~lad that iJ is getting through to them. •Now I will start the last paragraph, where I say, 'The Premier should request the federal government to immediately recommence negotiations. It will not be necessary to -accept whatever is offered. The federal government should show its sincerity by indicating a willingness to sweeten its last offer made before the I Supreme Court's decision.

If the final offer is not adequate, we can try again after the federal election. But we owe it to our thousands of unemployed and to our weakening business community to return to the bargainin table -as soon as possible. To adpot Professor Jackson's recommendation would be for us to refuse to talk to this or indeed the next federal government until somehow 1without negotiation 1our right to offshore resources has been recognized. This would be the governmental equivalent of the child in order to get its own way holding its breath until it turns blue.

Even if the federal government turns blue, we will have to negotiate ; without preconditions 1to obtain the rights which we all wish Newfoundland to have.' .Now, Mr. Cliairman, I was very 1010

March 26, 1984 Tape 378 EC - l MR. BARRY: interested in the statement by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that there is no need for any cross-country tour, when I read the report in The Daily News on page 3 today, where it ·cello a:.>out the Premier ·having started his cross-country tour with a speech to the St. John's Board of Trade and then 'the Premier taking the next leg of his cross-country tour to LaScie on Sunday, that is yesterday .. Now, Mr.

Chairman, going across the Province is well and good, but I think we all know that 99.9 pe~ cent of the people in this Province support our position on the offshore - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: - · support the position of members opposite on the offs,hore.. And members opposite, Mr. Chairman, are going to be unable to run this red herring that somehow we are disloyal Newfoundlanders, somehow we are traitors - that is gone, Mr. Chairman - because we dare question wheth 1 er the Premier is going about it in the right way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: We are all looking for the same thing, Mr.

Chairman, but that crowd opposite are taking us farther and farther away from achieving our objective. I am delighted, Mr. Chairman, that the Premier is finally recognizing that he is going to have to do a cross-country tour. Now, the only concern I have is, is he going to accept the second part of our message, which is that he should change the image that he projects to our fellow Canadians? The only way, Mr. Chairman, that he will persuade our fellow Canadians of the justice and equity of our cause is if he gets away from this notion 1011

March 26, 1984 Tape 378 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: that it is all ·for Newfoundland and to hell with everybody else, Mr. Chairman, which is not government policy, but which is the image which the Premier is portraying day after day after day in the mainland press. Now, the effect of that has peen - SOME I-ION . Mm ,lEERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: little quiet. Mr. Chairman, I would like a MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. BARRY: I am going to have laryngitis if they keep trying to shout me down. I do not mind shouting them down in return but it gets a little hard on the vocal chords. I know, Mr.

Chairman, _they do not want to listen, I know that they want to try to shout us down if they could. If parliamentary procedure permitted it they would not want to hear anything which deviates from the party line. They would not want to hear anything which raised any question about 'what they are handed by the Premier, by Planning and Priorities, to get up and vote, one after the other, without thought, without criticism, with nothing more than blind obedience, Mr. Chairman.

Now, Mr. ~hairman, there are issues in this Province which merit every member in this House gettingup and giving his own opinion, to give us his own honest and independent opinion, and the offshore resource is one of those. As the public of this Province expect, we have to find out from each member opposite whether he believes that the government of the day is promoting the objectives which we all wish to obtain. Is the Premier getting closer to the objective of getting Newfoundland involved in management of the offshore, of getting a fair share of revenue from the offshore? 1012

March 26, 1984 Tape 378 EC - 3 MR . BARRY : Is the Premier bringing this Province closer to that objective o·r are • . .;e today further away than we were in 1971? Now, Mr . Chairman, if I could just borrow my research notes here from my collea<:Jue : Mr . Chairman, we see Mr. Mulroney irt a statement to the Editorial Board of The Financial Post stating: "The day when the Prime Minister can sign a piece of paper and say, ' I am here .by giving you the offshore; that is gone . " Now, what is it the Premier is nmv V!aiting for? Why will he not sit down 1-1ith the presen .t government? If Mr .

Mulroney gets in, is this not an indication that he will have to bargain hard with him as well? And it goes on to say, "Even if the Prime Minister did say tha t," Mulroney said, "he could no longer deliver the go0ds" if the provinces said no. And I wnuld like to know from the Minister of Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) whether this is so - I had an opportunity t.o look at the Chart.er and the amendment provisions - 1013

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 379 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: as to whether the consent of other provinces is required. Now there are certain things where an amendment to the Constitution of Canada in relation to any provision that applies to one or more but not ali provinces, for example, an alteration to boundaries between provinces ~~~at may be,made by a proclamation issued by the Governor General where authorized by a resolution of the Senate and House of Commons and of the Legislative Assembly of each Province to which the amendment applies. Now is that the

section that applies or is it th~

section which would require the consent of other provinces where it talks about the extension of existing provinces into the territories? Now the Continental Shelf is not ipso facto a territory ·, but will the Continental Shelf be viewed by the courts as a territory so that any constitutional amendment 1which .purported 'to extend the boundaries · of Newfoundland so as to take in the Continental Shelf 1 would that be treated under

Section 42 of the Charter to require the consent of two-thirds of the provinces · that have in the aggregate 1 according to the then latest general census 1 at least 50 per cent of the population of all the provinces? Mr, Chairman, if it is the latter, if w~ are involved in a constitutional amendment that will require the consent of the other provinces,then the earlier that the process is started, Mr. Chairman, the better. The Premier has indicated that right now we have the support of the other provinces for our offshore ambitions.

Tf he waits much longer there are going to be changes · in t.he governments · of other provinces, and th.en the process of educating those gov~rnrnents will have to s·tart all over again. Now the time to start this process is now. And th .e Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) should tell us whether we will have to have the consent 1J14

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 379 SD - 2 MR. BARRY: of the other provinces and, if so, when is the government, when are the members opposite, going to insist that the government start the process of seeing that constitutional amendment comes·about and seeing that the consent of other provinces is received. And that can only be done by commencing negotiations today with the federal government. MR. CHATRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member,. s time has elapsed. The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, one of the good things about the movement of the member for Mount Scio (Nr.

Barryl from this side of the Hous~ to the other side of the House is· that now it can be a battle of ideas instead of a Battle of words because certainly we were not going to get anything other than words from the scruff that is opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: So it is nice to see that the intellectual level of the Opposition has been raised by at least 200 per cent. Mr. Chairman, I wonder, you know, the hon. member' s letter that h.e has writ ten for the Evening Telegram is rather long and woolly and I doubt if anyone. will read it.

I suggest he. may well have taken the oath that I sugges·ted, I imagine. it was taken in private, r· understand that no agreement is possible with the present federal government. J:t just is not possible to agree . with this federal government. There will be a time when an agreement will be. possible with the federal government, out it will not be until that government has 1015

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 379 SD - 3 MR. CARTER: been changed. Now I hope that it is the government of Brian.Mulroney,but even if it were not 1 as lon.g as it is not the government of Prime Minister Trudeau ,.I am sure that we will be aole to have some sort of a deal. But I \vould like the member for Mount Scio (.Mr. Barryl. or some other -of course, there is no one of his intellectual equal, in fact, only a fraction of his intellectural equal, so I suppose I will not get anything coherent from any· of the other members opposite.

But I was hoping that the member fore Mount Scio would continue on with thi.s debate and spe.ll out exactly what kind of a deal they would recommend, what would they have us sign,. what would they have 1016

March 26, 1984 Tape Ho. 380 MJ - 1 MR. CARTER: Newfoundland sign? Will they spell it out? No 1 they will not spell it out because they are afraid that if they try and come up .with a deal,the only kind of a deal that Ottawa would signtthey will reveal their absolute bankruptcy of ideas. Now I think that the member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) has fallen into a bit of a trap. rr:lhereas it may be true that the other provinces will have to agree to any ownership agreement that may have to be_put into the Constitution, still the federal government by itself can surely agree to a revenue sharing and a management deal 1tlhat has no reference whatsoever- to the federal Constitution, and I think that is the direction in which the answer must be sought. Our government has shown its willingness to set aside temporarily the ownersnip provisions and therefore I think that the answer surely lies in a management and revenue sharing area.

Earlier the Minister of Transportation (Hr. Dawe) pointed out that members should have to donate their organs if they are in an accident,and I was wondering what kind of a monster would be created if the entire Opposition were to get into a fatal accident~ Imagaine~ ~-IoN would you combine the mouth of the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary), the brain of the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), the ideas of the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), with the face of the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), the brass of the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) 1 the looks of the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) 1 and the crust of the absent member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts)~ I think that would create a monster but I will seriously ask that this composite monster, or at least one of them, get up and give us a sincere appraisal of what we should 1017

March 26, 1984 MR. CARTER: it out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 380 MJ - 2 sign for the offshore. Spell Hear, hear! Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Leader of the ~x. Chairman, I am afraid that I could not find words simple enough to spell it out for the hon. gentleman. If I spelled it out in ·just ordinary, Newfoundland 1 common sense language,the hon. gentleman would not understand it, his intelligence is so low. Mr.

Chairman, the hon. gentleman is a farmer and he knows the value of horse manure ·and he knows the value of cow's manure and he knows the value of hen's manure but, Mr. Chairman, he also knows that eat's manure,all it is good for is to create a stink and that is what the hon. gentleman just did. It is pure eat's manure, of use to nobody. Now, Mr. chairman, I want to bring hon. members back to the oil refinery for a couple of moments. Mr. Chairman, earlier today I was accusing the administration of completely bungling the oil refinery just the same as they did with the Lower Churchill and the Muskrat Falls.

If they had opted to develop the hydro potential of the Lower Churchill back in the early 1970s when they took over control in this Province,it would have been feasible, just the same, Hr. Chairman, as it would have been feasible to operate the oil refinery when it ran into trouble. But the problem, .Mr. Chairman, is that bungled it. And what did they do after they bungled it? They gave the refinery to Petro Canada, dumped it, gave it to them for nothing, at fire sale :'Jrices. I do not know if hon. members ~ecall the total cost of that refinery, the original cost of the refinery. The original cost of the 1018

March 26, 1984 Tape No. 380 MJ - · 3 MR. NEARY : refinery was $200 million. In 1969 the r~placement value of the refinery was between $600 million and $700 million. Z.!R. CP-~TER : That is rubbish. That refinery was never me-ant to work . It never did work. It is simple trash . MR. NEARY : There is the eat's manure again. Nr. Chairman, let me repeat what I just said just in case the hon . gentleman manages to distract any of his colleagues \'lho may be thinking about bolting the party and coming over to sit on the decent and honourable side of the House, Mr. Chairman.

The fact of the matter is that that refinery 1 back in 1969,the original cost was $200 million and the repla .cement value, or to build a new refinery, .was beb1een $600 or $700 million. MR. CARTER: It never \'larked . 1019

March 26,1984 Tape No. 381 ah-1 MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, add the inflationa.ry cost .to that , interest rates increasing and so forth,the replacement value of that refinery tqday would be $1000 million, ~1 billion, the replacement value. And the Newfoundland have $47 million invested into it and that is l0~t. t1R. CARTER: ' Pure lies! Lies! r-1R.DINN: You people guaranteed all of it. MR.NEARY: Mr. .Chairman, why does the hon. gentleman not go and play with the telephone cords. f-1R. CHAIID1AN (Aylward) : ~1R.NEARY: Order, please! 1~.

Chairman, the investment of the Newfoundland people 'tTas $4 7 million and they lost that through a manoeuvre in Cabinet when they gave up control of Provinciai Refining. Just the same as they gave up the final say or. EPA, it was a Tory administration that gave up the final say on that refinery. And we have three Tory ministers on the Board of Directors, Mr. John Crosbie,MP, Senator Doody and Judge Hickman,who did not seem to be aware of what was happening. They sat on the Board of Directors, they were appointed by the gentlemen there opposite to protect Newfoundland's investment in that refinery.

I· can tell hon. gentlemen how the money was paid out 1 but I do not want to waste my tim~ doing that and I do not want to get too technical. But I want to say this , Mr. Chairman, that the fact of the matter is that once the administration there opposite gave that refinery to Petro Canada it was doomed,and we said sa in this House. If hon. members will recall 1 we objected to what they did. We told them it was going to be scraped and all Petro Canada wanted was the storage tanks and the wharf that cost $20 million. That is all they wanted to get their hands on. How wise we 1020

March 26,1984 Tape No. 381 ah-2 MR.NEARY: were , Mr. Chairman! Our words have come truel~ The administration there opposite would not listen. Now, Mr. Ch~irrnan, what.has happened today? Well 1 Petro Canad~ put but a news release saying they are going to scrap the refinery and take it away, valued at $1000 rnillion.,and not one cent will go into the coffers of the Provincial treasury. It will go into the coffers of Petro Canada. And they talk about giving things away. Now, Mr.

Chairman, it is even more serious than that 1 because what they are admitting and what they are saying in effect is this, that not a gallon of oil from the offshore development , from Hibernia will be refined or processed in Newfoundland. Mr. Chairrnan,that is what they are saying. They have abandoned any thought or any idea of refining or processing oil in this Province. Do hon. gentLemen think that once Hibernia starts producing oil somebody is going to come in and build another oil refinery? l .

MR.CARTER: Does the hon. member \inaudible) MR.NEARY: Whatever chance we had for a petrochemical industry is gone out the window, Mr.Chairman. And only a week ago the-Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) ,who is not in his seat, told us that people were looking at Corne By Chance to look at the possibility of establishing a petro- chemical industry down there. Was the hon. gentleman fibbing? SOf-1E HON . !1EMBERS : No. 11R.NEARY: He was not. HR.TULK: He did not know what he was talking about. MR.NEARY: He did not know what he 1021

.,: - - -- ----- ~ March 26 ,1984 Tape No . 381 ah-3 MR.NEARY: was talking about, Mr. Chairman. They do not seem to have a handle on what is going on across the way. But let me repeat what I just said, Mr . Chairman, that what has happened today is that the administration there opposite have thrown 0ut the window any chance we ever had of refining and processing oil from Hibernia or from the offshore resources . That is what they have do ne today, Mr.Chairman, and that is what makes us so sad and pathetic apart from the qiveat.,ay. Is it any wonder they are called a shut -her-down administration? MR.CARTER: No ne of tvhat you are -saying is true . 1022

March 26, 1984 Tape 382 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: Oh, no! You did not give the refinery over to Petro Canada lock, stock, and b~rrel. MR. NEARY: I say about that situation. MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, what else can Who O¥nS Petro Canada? What else can I say about it? Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman, they had it in their hands and they threw it away, just as they had the offshore . in their hands and they threw it away when they put the matter before the court.

The biggest throwaway, the biggest giveaway the most colossal blunder in Newfoundland's entire history was when the Premier of this Province panicked and put the ownership Of _the offshore recources before the Newfoundland Appeal Court. The biggest blunder in our entire history! If the han. gentleman's name goes down in the history books, it will go down, Mr. Chairman, as the man who thre.; a'ltay the last opportunity we had in this Province to get a good deal for Newfoundland. Just because of his stubborness, because he cannot stand anything that is Liberal! He hates Mr.

Trudeau, he hates the Government of Canada, he cannot stand to get along with anybody, he wants to fight and squabble with everybody. And he wants to continue his fight, so he told us, until after the next federal election. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is acting in the best interest of Newfoundland and the people of this Province. MR. HODDER: He is hop{ng for another election. MR. NEARY: He is hoping. He has already won two elections. MR. WARREN: On · the backs of the people. MR. NEARY: Well, not on the backs of the people.

He has already won two elections on it, now he is hoping that he can influence the outcome of the federal .election. MR. SIMMS: You are wrong again. 1023

March 26, 1984 Tape 382 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: And, you know, Mr • . Chairman, the fact of the matter is that his strategy is not getting us anywhere. We are on a disaster ' course. The whole Province is just a wel~are state. And the hon. gentleman just lays back and, in almost a sadistic matter, plays his little poli ·tical games. MR. HODDER: He is trying to keep us poor, as far as I am concerned. MR. NEARY: Well 1there is a lot to be said for that, you know. A lot to be said.

Maybe his psychology is to keep the Newfoundland people poor, keep them on welfare,because if you make them prosperous then they might eat you up,just the same as what they say happened to Mr. Smallwood after twenty-three years of Liberalism. They say he educated the people too much. And in the Third World countries .,· leaders no doubt are watching this. If you educate your people , you make .them prosperous they will eat you up. Well 1 that is the same psychology we are getting from the han. gentlemen there opposite. Keep them poor; . that is why b1ey will not stimulate the Newfoundland economy, l·ir.

Chairman. i\1R. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): member's time has elapsed. Order, please! The han. The han. member for St. John's North. ~~. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I cannot sit still and listen to this nonsense without replying to it. In 1977 I went through the plant at Come By Chance, I asked the people who were running it if I might be shown through and they were very cordial to me and they did show me through, they showed mE;l the whole plant. Hy conclusion as a result of that tour is that the plant was trash.

It did not work properly then, it did not work properly before, and,as subsequent of events proved, it could not work. I do not think it could have worked even if 1024

.A. March 26, 1984 Tape 382 PK ..,. 3 MR. CARTER: you had given them the oil. Now what I saw was a refinery or a plant where live steam was pouring out at you, you had to watch your step to avoid being scalded, the flare tower was burning down like a candle, the control room was dirty and,as far as I could see,some of the instrument~ were not working. MR. CALLAN: That is nonsense. MR. CARTER: No, it is not nonsense. I was told later that the large storage tan~s had no agitatbrs in them so that the heavy oil would come in, the heavy parts would sink to the bottom, all they were doing was high-grading the lighter stuff that floated to the top. There was a large supertanker. I guess i