LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 27 May, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - FLOOD AND EMERGENCY EXPENDITURES MR. CHAIRMAN, H. Ha rapiak: The Com mittee will come to order. We're on 1. Fl ood Control and Emer­ gency Expenditu res. Mr . Mi nister. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, as this lin e imp lies, the explanation is it "Provides for expendi­ tu res related to flood ing and other natu ral disasters.

In clu des munic ipal flood gr ants, departmental flood expenditu res, Man itoba Fl ood Disaster Assistance Board and other related expen ditu res." I' m advised tha t the item her e mak es provision for the following. Mo st of the mo ney th at's involved in this for flood pert ains to the 1979 flood and its af termath. $500,000 is co mm itted for payout of a recent legal settlement and I don't have details of that, Mr .

Ch air ­ man, but it's a matter of pa ying out co mp ensation for floo ding. $100,000 is expected to meet an appeal on claims by Winnip eg. $35,000 will be spent by the Department of Natu ral Resou rces on minor out standing bridge repairs, again occas ioned by floo ding and $100,000 will meet mis­ cellaneous appeals generally thr ou gh Govern ment Services, through tha t Department.

The balan de of the funding is the re to deal with as the li ne imp lies "emergency expen ditur es." An exam­ ple of tha t is the recent settlement in conn ection with loss of bees resulting from spra ying opera tions that were carried on and tha t generally typifies this item. You will note that it makes reference to the Fl ood Disaster Assistance Board, it's the same board that has been in existence, I think, for a numb er of years. It 's chair ed by Elswood Bole and the vice- chairman is Syd Rei mer . The board has been very effective and consider ed very reaso nable.

I think the same ch air ­ man has been the re dur ing the lifetime of several adminis trati ons and I expect th at will conti nu e to be the case. Tho se are all the remark s I have, Mr . Chairman. This item really is, as the line ind icates, for eme rgency expen ditu res, primarily used in respect to floods. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS : Well, Mr . Chairman, I don't think that we have any reason to prolong this to any length. The item of int erest, of cou rse, is the su bstantitive one, the half -milli on dol lars for settlement of some out stand­ ing legal claim.

The Min ister has ind icated that he hasn't got the details about tha t. Perhap s he could at least outl ine in gener al terms wha t tha t par ticular claim is.

The other onl y notic eable item that I take some exception to bei ng includ ed in thi s amount is tha t I don't think tha t un der thi s item we should necessarily be the patsy for a decision made by the Depar tment of Health; namely, that for its good reaso ns instituted the Baygon spr ayi ng and su bsequen tly did some damage to the beekeepers in Man itoba and out of this Flood Contr ol and Eme rgenc y Expen ditu res - I su ppose maybe it's the seco nd term "Emergenc y Expendi­ tu res" that comes un der, so I only raise it on tha t point .

The only other is, this does not incl ude, as some of us perhaps were un der the impr ession, some of the flood protection works in the Valle y, dikes, Red River Val ley town. Thi s is cle anup of the past flood prim ar­ ily. Can the Minis ter give us any fur ther indic ation of tha t one major item tha t he ind icated was the su bstan­ tive item in this vote, the half -a -mill ion dol lars. HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr . Chairman, I apologiz e for my lack of detail on tha t. I was under the im pres­ sion that all of this information would be avai lable thr ough my depar tmen t. It wasn't the case.

Mo st of this funding is paid directly out of Fina nce. I think the Flood Disaster Assistance Board makes a finding and then the mo ney is requ isitioned. I think it pri marily works un der Govern ment Services, but the fund s are appropr iated out of Fina nce, so I did n't have the inf ormation. Wha t I' ll un dertake to do is, I' ve taken note of it and tomo rrow in the Ho use, in answer to a qu estion, I could vo lun teer the inf orma tion then. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, the Min ister has antici­ pated my action.

If the Min ister ag rees to accept as notice my que stioning of that amount aiad to have the detail to us in an answer form, then I have no fur the r que stions on this item. I defer to my col league. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Em erson. MR. A. DR IE DGER: Thank you, Mr. Cha irman, I just have a few qu estions. Du ring the time when the Flood Protec tion Program was in pla ce, cost sh ared with the Federal Gov ernment at tha t time, and deadlin es were set and pr obl ems arose because of the dea dline s. Many people had not comp leted the work.

I think we discussed this to some degree un der the Mi nister' s Estima tes. I think some whe re along the lin e, if I' m corr ect, I think we left almost $1 million on the table tha t was not expende d in terms of tha t program. Many applic ations were replaced, but had not been un der­ take the work because of weather conditions, No. 1, and lack of cont ractors tha t were prepared to do tha t work at that time .

I think appl ication was made by the previous admin­ istration for an extension of that time element and I' m sur e this Mi nister would feel the same way tha t if at all possible th ere should have been an extension of tha t time . 2803 I' m just wonde ring whethe r any of the se people tha t did no t ma nage to get und er the wire for various rea­ sons, whether th ere's still a possibili ty or probabil ity tha t this Min ister can maybe get in touch with the federal people and see whe ther th ere's a cha nce of maybe ha ving some of these people get their Flood Protect ion Program in place, in terms of diking around their properties, etc.

Many people took advantage of

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 it, but the re was a lot of appl ications that somehow did not get their work comp leted. The re were a lot in my area specifically and this is why I raised the qu estion. I still get confronted with it to this day and I' m sur e the Min ister does to some degr ee. I' m wondering if ther e's any way tha t maybe ther e's a possibili ty of exten ding this program some where along the line for a period of time during the sum mer mont hs - it wou ldn' t be any good in winter time - so tha t some of the se people could take advantage of this program. HON. A. MACKLING: Wel l, Mr .

Chairman, I hav en' t had people approach me on it, but certainly I' ll look into tha t and see whet her it's possible. I migh t say tha t our experience with the Federal Gov ern ment of recent years doesn' t make me too optimistic, but if you don' t try you can' t suc ceed. I don' t know what the vol umes are. It may have just missed getting in under the wire. I' ll look at tha t and cert ainly I would sympathize with tryi ng to provide some assistance for those people, because it wou ld make good sense to do so. Th at's all I can say. I' ll lo ok into it.

I can ind icate to the memb er what the results of my enquir ies are. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. To the Min ister, I would appreciate it if the Min ister could maybe give me an up date on some of the informa tion. I am sur e tha t the comm ittee un der Elswood Boles probably has this inf orma tion as to how many applica­ tions or how many requ ests th ey had after the dead­ line passed. The fact that, un for tuna tely, mone y was left on the table tha t was not expended is, I should say, un usual tha t this happened. Conditions at tha t time, when the dead line was set, sort of dictated it.

As I indic ated, weather conditions and lack of contr actors -(Int erjection)- Wel l, if the Mi nister wants to change chair s with the prev ious Min ister, I' ll go after him in the same way. The other qu estion I have is, the Mi nister has referred to a $500, 000 li bel suit tha t is being antici­ pated may be a cour t case? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, not li bel. Libel is an action in law, saying some thing indecent about someone else, so you mean it's a $500,000 claim. Appar ently ther e's been a recent legal settlement and I have n' t got the details on it, but I will get them. MR. A.

DR IED GER: I un derstand tha t this pro bably is one claim that is being dealt with. Could the Min ister, possibly at the same time , find out whether there are any other clai ms tha t are outsta nding that have not been dealt with un der this program? It seems odd tha t we have one major one for $500,000, and I know of in dividu als who are not hap py with some of the thing s tha t have happened, whether there are any others that are un derstanding at this time ? HON. A.

MACKLING: My note ind icates that one large one , the $500,000 one ; $1 00,000, an appeal on a clai m by Winn ipeg; and then th ere's $1 00,000 cover­ ing miscellenous appeals and the re may be a numb er of appea ls, obvious ly, involved in that, which are being handled through Gov ernme nt Services. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The que stion tha t I have then is, if the Min ister is che cking this out, the major one is with the City of Win nip eg, is that my under standing? HON. A. MACKLING: No, the $500,000 one , I don' t have the detail on the $500, 000 one and I' ll give you the detail. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: The $1 00,000 miscellaneous claims, I wonder if it would be possibl e, as clo se as possible, if the Min ister could provide tha t inf orma tion as well as to the claims tha t are outst anding on tha t one? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes I will, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIR MAN: I. Flood Control and Eme rge nc y Expendi tu res-pass. Resolution No. 12 8 -

Be it Resolved that it be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exeeding $1 million for Flo od Control and Em ergency Expenditur es for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983-pass. That conclude s the Estim ates on Flood Control and Emer gency Expenditur es. Comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - LEGISLATION MR. CHAIRMAN, J. Storie: This commit tee will come to order. I direct the mem bers' attention to Page 3. We're here to consider the Legislation Estim ates, Item No .. In demni ties, Page No. 3, 1.(

a) Memb ers. The Honour able Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: It' s cust omar y when any depart­ men t's Estima tes are put before the Hous e tha t the Min ister mak e an opening statement. Would the Mi n­ ister be prepared to make a statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr . Ch airman, my statement will be very br ief, to the Honour able Member for Vi rde n.

As on e memb er of the Board of the In ternal Economy in prese nti ng the se Estima tes to the Hous e, I bel ieve tha t most memb ers are aware, tha t if the y have any specific qu estions with respect to the item sh own and in any other areas deal ing with mem bers' services, in demni ties and que stions dealing with retirement and al lowances, I will attemp t to get the information for the honour able memb ers and we'll try and sup ply the info rmation to them as best as I can for the hon ­ our able memb ers.

This being a new role for myself as one member of the Board of In ternal Economy, I will attemp t to answer and serve the memb ers of the Assem bly as best I can on behalf of His Honour , our Speaker. 2804 MR. CHAIR MAN: l. (

a) Mem bers; 1. (

b) Speake r's and Deputy Speake r's and Deputy Chairman' s additiona l In demn ity-pass. The Memb er for Arth ur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Ju st for clarific ation, you 're on 3. on page 3, is that correct?

Thur sday, 27 May, 1982 MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on Item No. 1. (b). Speaker's, Deputy Speaker's, and Deputy Ch airman's Addition al In demni ty. MR. J. DOWNEY: Ok ay, I'm sorry, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.( b)-pass; 1.(

c) Opposition Ho use Leader. Party Whip s-pass; 1. -pass; 2. Retir ement Allow an ces In cl uding Refunds of Contributions (Statutory) -pass; 3. Mem bers All owances (Statutory) 3. (

a) Cons tituenc y Al lowan ce-pass; 3. (

b) Living All owance- pass: 3. (

c) Com mittee All owance-pass: 3. (

d) Mi leage All owance. The Honour able Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: On the Mi leage Allowance, could we have the figur e? I bel ieve from time to time the amount paid for mi leage is upgraded and I think we get the same rate as the Civil Service. Could the Mini s­ ter ind icate to us what tha t rate is? HON. B. UR USKI: Yes, thank you , Mr . Chairman. In terms of the southern por tion of the province, south of 53, the rate is 20.3 cents per kilome tre up to 9,0 00 kilo metres per year; between 9,000 and 18 ,000 kilo me­ tres. the rate goes to 15 .6 cents a kilo metre; over 18 ,000 kilo metres, it's 14.4.

Tha t's south of 53. No rth, it's sligh tly in creased for th ose mem bers nor th of 53 - 22.9, 17 .8 and 17 .3 on the respective mile ages. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr . Ch airman. on Item (

d) Mileage All owance, who qu alifie s for mileage allo wance? HON. B. URU SKI: Yes, I bel ieve the legisla tion is qui te cle ar in terms of memb ers whose constitue ncy boun darie s are outside the City of Winnip eg. The y would qual ify for mi leage from their residence to the Legislative Assembly on the basis of that distance. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman.

I would like the Honour able Mini ster to advise whether he think s tha t it's a fair system in alloca ting mileage al lowance to a const ituenc y tha t wou ld be just borderi ng the City of Winnip eg and out side of the City of Win nip eg, whe­ reas th ere are mem bers in the City of Winnip eg who have pro bably a larger area to cover and maybe even farther to come to the Legislatur e then a cons tituenc y that's just adjoining the City of Winn ipeg. Would any consideration be given to somebody whose residence, whose norm al residence or even no t normal residence - is outside of the City of Winn ipeg.

Would any con­ sideration be given to tha t type of a memb er? HON. B. URUSK I: Mr. Chairman, I should mention to the honour able memb er tha t the re is a limi t in terms of the nu mb er of trip s per annum and th at is 26 trip s tha t the mi leage is covered. The legis lation. as I un der­ stand it, is qu ite clear and it's statutorily prov ided if th ere will be any chang es. I am sur e most ch an ges to The Legis lative Assembl y Act have come about in the main through consu ltation and discussion between the parties within the Ho use, and negotia tion.

If ther e will be any chan ges or any deviation from the present statute, tha t wou ld have to be presented in terms of amendme nts to the Act. In terms tha t the memb er speaks of, where consti­ tuency bounda ries are borde ring Winnip eg, the y have to be outside the city lim its and the residence of the member wou ld have to be outsid e Winn ipeg as well, in terms of where a memb er normally resides to qu al ify for tha t mi leage.

While I can appreciate memb ers within the ur ban area havi ng expenses in terms of the comin g to and forth from the Assem bly, I pres um e. in terms of the history of the leg islation, tha t rural mem bers who have had to live away from hom e. com­ ing into the city to either do business an d/or live in during the Session would quali fy for this all owance. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I wou ld just lik e it to come to the Ho no ur able Min ister's attention tha t the re could be a rur al mem ber who would in all probabi lity have farther to come than an ur ban mem ber, but I would think tha t it would be a matter of maybe just two of thr ee mile s might be the dif ference. For instance, and I am no t looking to make any chan ges at this time, but I would lik e to make the Honour able Minis ter aware of it, the memb er who represents Spri ngfield, who lives in Sp ringfield, migh t only have an extra five miles to drive mor e so than the Memb er for Transcona and receive his all owance.

You know , I'm not here to beat the drum forthe Member for Transcona by any means, at least not the sitting member that's the re right now. I think tha t ther e are some inequal ities here and I think tha t it should be looked at. HON. B. URUS KI: Mr. Chairman, fir st of all, I think it is qui te clear that memb ers of the Executive Council are not eligi ble for th is al lowance, but the member gives a "for instance," and I gu ess no matter where you set the boundar y at any po int in time, tha t decision becomes arbitr ary in terms of where you mak e the ru les initially.

Whil e I appreciate an argume nt can be made by the honour able member saying, wel l, it's not qui te the same, one can also look at other areas - not only in Mem bers' Allowan ces - when you do have bound aries tha t has to be a form of. if one can put it. discri mi na­ tion when you do draw bou nd aries, for example, in terms of insur ance bou ndar ies. 2805 Ther e are boundar ies which insur anc e comp an ies, whether it be public or priv ate, the y have set boundar ­ ies in terms of rati ng territories. For tho se people who are living near that. th ere are argu ments on both sides of it.

Th ere is that po int the honour able member makes tha t th ere are very clo se differences. The se are the rule s at the present time. If the memb er. I'm sur e, has some ideas how to better the system, I wou ld hope tha t he would even commun icate with myself or with the Speaker in terms of some ideas or with his Caucus people who would be dealing with our mem bers in terms of any futur e change s. I think he should make his views kn own to his own member s so that kind of a discussion can take place. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I will take to heart what the Hon­ our able Mi nister has just sugge sted. tha t if I have any better views, any better ideas, that I should bring them to the attention of the Legisla tu re. I think tha t one of the best ideas I ever had would be to see tha t the Memb er for Nia kwa, who has a residence out in Meni­ sino, is also given a car all owance. I would just men-

Thur sday, 27 May , 1982 tion that. you kn ow. as a passing remark to the Hon­ ourable Mini ster. HON. B. UR USKI: Wel l, Mr .

Chairman. one has to examine the remarks tha t the honour able memb er has made because if the honour able memb er's constitu­ ents are residents in tha t area and he does live th ere, obviously he wou ld be entitled to that. but if his con­ stituents are within the boun daries of the City of Win ­ nip eg and because one chooses to have a residence somewhere else other than the constituency tha t he represents, tha t is entir ely up to the honour able memb er and wou ld not fall with in the scope of the legislation. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Memb er for Min nedosa. MR . D.

BLAKE: I just don' t know what the Memb er for Niakw a's majority was in the Menisino last election but. Mr . Chairman. just as a po int of interest going from the sublime to the ridicu lous. the Memb er for Ch urchill who lived in Chur chill at the time when he was clai ming mileage all owance. th ere's no road into Ch urchill, so the y asked him to clai m rail mile age which go es way up into Saskatch ewan and back in again. It would have been far cheaper for him to fly but he clai med mileage on the rail miles. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)-pass -t he Memb er for Pembi na. MR. D.

ORCHARD : Ju st one clarific ation from the Min ister. Wha t did he say tha t mileage was per kilo meter? HON. B. UR USKI: 20.3 cents up to 9.000 and 9 to 18. 15.6 and over 18. 14.4. MR . CHAIR MAN: (d) -pass; (e)-pass - the Memb er for Arth ur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman. I want to mak e a few commen ts on this po int. I think it'll pro bably be in thi s area and there's two po ints I want to make; one is the secretarial staff tha t are avai lable for all memb ers of both the Opp osition and the backbench of the gove rn ment.

In what is ta king place within the discus­ sions between the two parties I would hop e tha t the re would be serious cons ideration given to expanding the amount of secretarial service tha t is available to all memb ers. As I un dersta nd it. Mr . Chairman. we're on 3. (

e) which is Secretarial and Research Assistance, I think I'd be in the proper area. -(I nterjec tion) - Wel l, Mr . Chairman. statutory or not, it's still a po int I want to make and I think this is the place to do it.

I do think the imp ortance of tha t to give better repre sentation and to better service one's consti­ tuenc y. tha t kind of sup port should be given to mem bers and I want to go on the pu blic record as publicly sup por ting tha t, because I think it's no t a matter of a lot of mo ney. but it's a matter of prov iding a service which would better serve the constit uen ts within each memb er's constituenc y. I think tha t's really the job we're here to do and tha t is to provide the best possible service to the constit uenc y.

The other po in t I want to mak e on the Research Assistance and. as well, I want to ackn owledge the inv itation which I received through the Speaker's office to go to the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Wel­ land Canal System some two to th ree weeks ago or a month ago. I dropped a note to the Speaker thanking him. but I think the kin d of effort that is put forward in fund s to provide the opport uni ty for memb ers of all the Legisla tive Assembl ies thr oughout Cana da to look at the different areas of imp ortance. par ticu larly to Western Canada and par ticu larly to Mani toba. The St.

Lawrence Seaway System is imp ortant to Mani­ toba, because appr oxima tely 90 percent of our gr ain mov es thr ough tha t particular port and I think I, as a memb er representing rural Mani toba, hope full y. would be able to have a better un derstanding of the kind of costs. the kind of exercises tha t have to take place to drop the grain from Thu nder Bay some 600 feet to when it hits sea level. That is a su bstantially greater distance than I am sur e most Man itoba farmers would reali ze. This was my fir st opp ortu nity to see it.

I think for some strange reason I had the feeling tha t once gr ain got to Thu nder Bay tha t it was pretty well ready for export, but it has to go some 1,500 mile s fur ther to get to the -(I nterjection) - well. the mem ber's say­ ing. we are not in Agricu ltu re. I want to make the po int. The other po int I want to make in this area. seeing the Minis ter of Agricultur e is here and maybe he woul d tran smit this message on to some of the people who have the responsibili ty for handling of gr ain, but if it wasn't for the gr ain moved thr ough the St.

Law­ rence System and out of eastern Canada and out of Canada in total, Canada as a nation would be pretty flat on its econ omi c beh ind. because cert ainl y th ere is no other com mod ity movi ng in the Gr eat Lakes sys­ tem. The re isn't any ir on ore coming up because of the depre ssion in the aut omobile ind ustry; I think the re is some 20 percent of the Domini on Mari ne system; the sh ips are not in service because of the depre ssion.

And the po int again has to be made - the imp ortance of agricu ltur e in Canada is once again risi ng to the su rface and I think the people who are negotia ting on behalf of the farm com muni ty, when it come s to sel­ ling our commo dities and when the y're trying to put th eir case before the po liticians in Ottawa who are in control of the Wheat Board and tran sportat ion sys­ tem. have a pretty imp ortant and big bargai ning tool in the ir favour. I think the people. par ticu larly the Mi nis­ ter of Agricult ur e who is sitting here. shou ld be very much aware of it hi mself.

I think that to again make the po int. if it wasn't for the agric ultur al indus try. the in come for all of Canadians wou ld be pretty mini mal and I think we wou ld be in a far greater depre ssion than we are at the present time. 2806 Mr. Chairman. again I think that any monie s tha t go into the Speaker' s area of all ocation for the se kind of exchan ges. I want to fully support and would hop e that memb ers opposite see fit to conti nue on and think in tha t same way. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. B. URUS KI: Mr. Chairman.

I thank the honour ­ able memb er for his rema rks dealing with Secretarial Assistance and Research Assistance and I want to go on record as well for the honour able mem ber to tel l him and hi s colle ague s tha t I think it was appreciated by all mem bers of the Hou se. when they had the reins

of gov ernme nt, in terms of pro viding offices for MLAs, the movement into better accom modations for MLAs to be able to serve their constitue nts. I give them full marks in adv ancing along tho se li nes. The y made positive mo ves in tha t area and I think it should be ack no wledged. I' ve said it many time s thr oughout this provi nce privately, bu t I do make it and ack nowledge it here speaking tonight publicly for that move.

But I' d lik e to know from the honour able memb er whether when he speaks of Secretarial Assistance, is he speaking of assistance in terms of constitue ncy work, in terms of the riding; whether or not th ere should be the abil ity to set up some office within the riding; whether ther e be some part -ti me secretarial help to take phone calls and do some office work for the memb er, or is he rela ting that pri marily to the Caucus Office when memb ers are in Session within the Assem bly.

I' d lik e some clar ification from him so that I could better under stand his feeli ngs and his needs in terms of serving the people of Ma nitoba better. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to bela­ bour the situation. I would sugge st that it wou ld be best with in the buildi ng, a greater amount of secretar­ ial service right here dur ing the Session and probably some during the rest of the year. but not spec ifically to enter into cons tituency offices and tha t type of thing. No, I was speak ing specifically about sup port staff in the secretarial pool system. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Memb er for Conco rdia.

MR. P. FOX: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I'd lik e to add ress the few remark s in regard to secretarial help , the imp rovements tha t MLAs have had and, of cou rse, all of the other amenitie s tha t have developed. I prob­ ably am one of the few who is mor e aware of how mu ch has transpi red since I became a memb er because when I fi rst arrived her e, it was strictly a matter of sink or swim and you got a secretary between - at tha t time we were an Op position of 12 - we had one secretary for the 16 , 18 weeks tha t we sat, and tha t was it. We didn't even have an office.

We got a sho ebox to put our papers in and take them home with afterwards. I real­ ize tha t today we have qui te a lot mor e in the way of services to the mem bers but I'm afraid tha t lik e so many other thing s, because it just happ ened, because it occu rred and it gr ew lik e Topsy, it really isn' t ade­ qua te and it's a far cry from what we really need in order to serve our constituen ts and, of cou rse, do an efficient job for the public of Mani toba. I have to say tha t th is, I want to exp lain, applies both in Oppos ition, as well as in gove rn ment.

I'm sur e that the Min isters, pro bably because the y're overwo rked , whoever hap pens to have a minis try, don' t always see the pa rliamen tary system fu ncti onin g, and the kind of a system it is and how good it is. Yes, it's got its drawbacks; it isn' t perfect. I' ve been a student of sys­ tems from around the world and I find that the one we have is probably as good as any that I'm aware of. Nevertheless, it can be imp roved upon, and the only way it can be imp roved is if the mem bers thems elves can get the tools with which to do the job adequately.

The fir st job is tha t the y have an environment within which to work. Now we have part of tha t, but un fortu- 1982 nately it's segregated. You'r e opera ting in different little pods, which makes it also diffi cul t to have the adequa te secretarial service. At the present time we have phone s downstairs. If you 're using the phone downstairs, you tie up you r line and someb ody tryi ng to get hold of you from the outside can't do a darn thin g.

Certainly the y can get hold of you upstairs, if the y recall tha t num ber, but then their message is th ere and as I' ve said, you really aren' t getting your commun ications as you should. I bel ieve one of the things tha t could be done just to improve the system as we have it, is that the telephone system could be inf orme d to revise the numb ering system so that our calls could be transferr ed one way or the other to us right down ther e.

I don' t say we should have a second phone but we should have a system whereby a ligh t wou ld ligh t up to tel l us ther e's an outside call coming in and we could put it on hold - someth ing of that kin d. In regard to extra secretarial help, I really think that if we were to get any mor e, it wou ld be an inefficient way of opera ting to put them into the pods, because you'r e starting to du pl icate services.

I' m of the op inion that what should really be done - and I would imagine this wou ld have to be a little bit on a lon g-term plan­ ning - is that thi s legis lative second floor should beco me a legisla tive floor onl y, so tha t the memb ers could have a Caucus Room and their offices together, where you could get efficient service from the secre­ taries th at you have without havi ng to run arou nd, have a double filing system, upstairs, downst airs and so on.

The other thing that I think and th at's a long -term pl an, but I think what really has to happen is tha t we, as memb ers, have to start discussing and arriv ing at consensus instead of worrying about what the press is going to do to us, because no matter how much we spend in thi s regard - and I' m going to be open and fr ank and the y can print every word of it - if we spend $1 milli on, it's about one twenty-fifth of a percent of the total Bud get of the province and if tha t means tha t we can do a better job for the people of Ma nitoba, then I think it's mo ney well worth spent.

So I' m saying tha t we really have to have a hard look and we have to start to co-operate and the other thing tha t we have to do is set up an all-mem bers com mit­ tee. As muc h as I appreciate tha t two Mi nisters and the Speaker may have the best interests of the rest of us at heart, since the y are Min isters and since the y are Speakers, the y're very busy.

I' ve been in the Chair as a Speaker and I know tha t many of the thing s that I thought that mem bers wou ld like, I fo und out after­ wards the memb ers were not really int erested in, because you are sort of aside and apart from the mai nstream of the Legisla tive Assembly when you' re a Speaker and the same thing applies as a Min ister. 2807 So. conseq uen tly, I think an all-mem bers com mit­ tee wou ld pro bably serve us mem bers and serve the public muc h better, because we would come up with ideas tha t would save the pu blic mon ey, give the pub­ lic the inf ormation and the services they requir e and at the same time make us better MLAs.

Thank you, Mr . Chairman, MR. CHAIR MAN: 3.(e)-pass; (

f) Speaker' s Expenses. The Memb er for Virden.

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr . Chairman, while I realize tha t the su bject here is one tha t is a statutory fig ur e that is set by The Legislative Assembly Act, I think that we have to take a look at the office of the Speaker. I kno w the former memb er who was just speaking and was a Speaker can probably give the Legislature a lot of inf orma tion on some of the expenses that are involved within the Speake r's Office tha t it's absol utely imp os­ sible to cover by an amount such as $3,000.00. I will give you an example and I know it probably will be covered un der It em 4.(

b) or (

c) or some thing down there, but next year, the Province of Ma nitoba is expected to host the Canadian Commonw ealth Parli­ amen tary Conf erence here in Mani toba. The cost of tha t conf erenc e will pro bably exceed $1 25,0 00, $1 30,000, so it will be a spec ial consi dera tion for tha t one year, but that isn' t the end of the parliame ntar y activities.

Parlia mentary activities go on all the time and I think when we're making up our Estimates, probably we should have an item in the Estima tes deal ing purely with pa rliament ary matters, the various parl iament ary gr oup s that Ma nitoba bel ongs to, the memb ership s that we have to pay to belong to tho se assoc iations so that mem bers thems elves would get a better idea of the activities of the various pa rliamen­ tary associa tions, their activiti es and the benefits that can accrue from taking an active part.

I raise the issue now because we are dealing with expenses tha t deal with the olfice of the Speaker and the Speaker is the president of the various pa rliamen ­ tary associa tions of which Ma nitoba is a mem ber.

So I suggest to the Honour able Mini ster that in futu re, when you are considering the preparat ion of Esti­ mates, it might be worthwhile to have a separate item in the Estima tes dea ling purely with pa rliamen tary matters, so tha t mem bers woul d be able to take a lo ok at tha t par ticular item and the y wou ld beco me mor e cogniz ant of the fact tha t th ere are various pa rliamen­ tary activities to which they are mem bers in full right and the benefits tha t are accr uin g to them from th at mem bership .

One of the other thing s about that is the ongoing act ivities tha t occur in the Speaker's office when we have visiti ng dele gations, usually the responsibi lity of the Speaker to entert ain, to ho st visiting parli amen­ tary gr oup s. Si nce you don' t know at the be ginning of the year how many visitations you can have or the size of them or the length of their stay, I sug gest to you that the figur e of $3,000 is a very arbitr ary one to beg in with. How ever, it is statutory.

We do have an excellent secretary to the Board of Int ernal Economy and I am sur e he probably can, un der Othe r Expenditur es, find a dollar or two on the odd occa sion, but it does leave the activities of the office of the Speaker pretty tight as to fina nc es on what the Speaker can do with respect to visiting pa rliamen tary group s. So I just raise it now for the benefit of other mem bers of the Assem bly who may not be aware of th ose activities th at are ongoing by the Speaker on your behalf . MR. CHAIR MAN: The Memb er for Concordia. MR. P. FOX: Mr .

Chairman, I too would like to join with the Memb er for Virden in in dicating tha t it is un for tuna te tha t we are mem bers - it's not unf ortu nate that we're memb ers - but it is un fortu nate tha t we don' t all ocate mon ies for particip ating as mem bers of the Commonw ealth Parl iam entary Associa tion, that is at the interna tio nal as well as at the Canadian regional level. One of the thi ngs tha t I found dur ing my time was that one had to get some of these mon ies out of different al locati ons.

For examp le, the du es for the CPA if I recall cor­ rectl y - I don' t know where they come from now; the y may be here, but I have n' t been able to find them - came out of the Executive Council and out of Domin ­ ion Provinci al Relations bu dget. Wh y it was th ere, I don' t kn ow, but tha t was a numb er of years ago and tha t's the way it was at that time. Possibly, the Clerk for the In ternal Economy can tell us where they come from now or the Mini ster can. I bel ieve that there are a numb er of sem in ars tha t we are attending. I find no allo cation for them in here.

I know tha t we are going, but where the mon ies are comi ng from, I am not aware. Possibly, we can have that explai ned to us. Fur ther to tha t, I think as pa rlia mentarians, we should be exchan ging inf orma tion and lea rnin g from other pa rli ament arians. I kn ow tha t often they invite us. There have been inv itations to B.C., Al berta, Quebec, and I am not aware tha t we were able to reci procate except on special occas ions.

I think tha t we should because if we are going to belong to the famil y of parliamen tarians, we can learn from each other and that also makes us better at carr ying out our func tions as MLAs. I think tha t is essential and I would concur with the Memb er for Virden tha t we should have a parliam ent ary al lowance in here and tha t it should reflect the needs of particip ating as parlia­ ment arians in Canada and abr oad . MR. CHAIR MAN: 3.( f)-pass - the Memb er for Radis son. 2808 MR. G. LECUYER : Mr . Chairman, I want to concur with the last two mem bers who have spo ken.

I want to bring up a matter that I think is very muc h related to what the y have tal ked about. The Memb er for Con­ cordi a was tal king in terms of exchanges in itiated by the various provinces to give an oppor tuni ty for the mem bers of the var ious Legislatu res to meet and exchange on various issues which would be pertinent to both gr oup s.

Th ere is another program which is started on a pilo t basis this year by the Centre for Legisla tive Exchange which has been opera ting for, I am given to und er­ stand, some ten years now between the Canadian Govern men t at the federal level and their Amer ican coun terparts. For the fir st time this year, the y in itiated the program on a pilot basis whereby representatives of both the Gov ernment side and Oppos ition sides of the various Legisla tu res would get together on two or th ree occa sions dur ing the year to exch ange on some of the cu rrent issues.

It is not a program that is int ende d to comp ete or detract from the CPA progr am. It is a program which is uniqu e in itself and I want to read a passage from a letter wh ich the Speaker has received, a copy of which he has sent to our Caucus and to the Opposition Cauc us and I have had occas ion to discuss this a little bit with the Chairman of the Opp osition Caucus. I know that at least one member from our side of the

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 Ho use and a memb er from the Oppos ition side has gone and benefited from this pr ogram al ready this year. "The idea of the Cana da-Leg islative Visits Pro­ gr am for which" - and this is the Director who' s writing this - "I am solici ting your sup port, really gr ew out of repeated advice from pr ovincial memb ers who have particip ated in our Cana da-U .S. Legislative Visits Program." It 's not a very costly pr ogram. Actually the amou nts wh ich are req ue sted of the various pro vinc ial gov ernm ents represents less than the cost of the air fare to

part icipate in the se programs. Si nce it is a distinctive program whereby the format is different from the CPA in tha t onl y a small numb er of parlia­ mentarians wou ld meet to discuss a single pu blic issue no t with the idea of arri ving necessarily at a consensus, but to get experts to present the pertinent facts in that par ticular field.

The financial contr ibu tion s requested, as I stated, are act ually small enough that the y should not cut into any funds available to the CPA but agai n, I repeat, I think from tho se who have par ticip ated in this pro­ gram with whom I have talked have told me that the se programs as far as the y kno w are well planned, well organ ized and well worthwhi le. I think tha t mon ies should be provided to sup port this program. Thank you, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Mini ster. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr .

Speaker, I' d just li ke to advise honour able mem bers tha t alth ough some of the que s­ tions tha t the y have raised with respect to all owances and expenses deal ing with other matters of the Speaker's Office, th ere is, within the Bud get, an item for (

d) a br eakdow n which I can give to the honour ­ able mem bers. Th ere is going to be some preparatory work done for the CPA Conf erence and th ere are funds provided for, of cou rse, memb ership s into the conference, the expenditur es, expenses of mem bers in terms of travel and as well expenses for mem bers attending the conference there. But th ose items are consider ed in the un der 4. (

d) and mem bers who have commen ted on involvement in the Parliame ntar y Associa tion and dif ferent Can ada-wide research group s and I take their commen ts and consid eration should be given to see what par tic ipation the Assem­ bly should take in terms of being involved in the se group s, so tha t memb ers can better inf orm them­ selves in terms of what is happ ening with in our parli­ ament ary system in this countr y and even in other cou ntrie s, in order to have and par ticip ate in the research tha t is done .

I can say as a memb er of this Assem bly, I' ve had the occa sion to attend two or th ree CPA Conf erences and as wel l, I was on one exchange. I bel ieve it was through the group tha t the Member for Radis son spoke about . It was wh ile I was Mini ster responsible for the Civil Service. We had occasion to travel to Washing ton to deal with issues in the United States deal ing with equal em ploy ment oppor tun ities, the Civil Service and various other leg islative mecha ­ nisms tha t are in place in the United States.

I fou nd tha t exercise from a min isterial po int of view very worthw h ile and fruitful in terms of kno wledge and scope as to what is happ ening elsewhere. So I appre- ciate the com ments of the honour able mem bers in the se areas and it will be up to Mem bers of the Assem­ bly to consider the scope and the amount of involve­ men t tha t we wish to take in some of these organ iza­ tions tha t they have raised and tal ked about. MR. CHAIR MAN: 3.(f)-pass; 3. (g) -pass; 3. (h). The Memb er for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr .

Min ister, I wonder if you could give us an expl ana tion of what this item really consti­ tutes and how it's expended? MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Min ister. HON. B. UR USKI: I'm advised, Mr . Chairman, tha t this all owance is for the Deputy Speake r's Expenses and I'm advised, as well, in the last decade it has never been util ized -(I nterjec tion)- it may have been, but from the reco ll ection of staff here tha t in the last numb er of years it has not been expend ed. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Memb er for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

I think tha t I can confirm tha t and I can pro bably tell you the reason, I didn' t know how to get it. I think tha t it's a go od expense and I think the Deputy Speaker is entitle d to tha t extra $5.0 0 for whatever it is tha t he needs for expenses - or is tha t 500? Now, I' m really sad tha t I wasn't able to get it.

I think it's a good expense; I think that the Deputy Speaker should be allow ed to have tha t expense for eme rgenc ies or for whatever, but for nonp ol itical pu rposes and I think tha t it's a legitima te expense and I just want to bring to the attention that it hasn't been used, at least dur ing the prev ious gov ernm ent' s time in office. MR. CHA IRM AN: 3.(h) -pass. 4. Other Assem bly Expenditur es 4. (

a) Leader of the Official Oppos ition Party 4. (a) (1)- pass; 4. (a)

(2) Salarie s-pass; 4.(a)(3 ) Other Expenditu res-pass; 4. (b) -pass; 4. (

c) Salaries. 2809 The Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, I believe the Ho n­ our able Memb er for Arthur raised an issue which I think pro bably could have fallen und er this category and that is dealing with salaries of sup port staff within the Legislative Assem bly Building here, and I bel ieve the po int tha t he raised was one tha t is cert ainl y of conc ern to us.

I bel ieve when this recycl ing of mem bers' offices took place last year, where there are gr oup s of mem bers in rather large offices with indi­ vidu al office space, th ere is cert ainly a need th ere for one additional staff in each one of tho se gr oup offices. I would hope tha t the Board of In ternal Econ omy consi ders tha t request very care ful ly, because I think it's a very reaso nable request. I'm sur e memb ers on the gover nmm ent side who also have tho se offices will find tha t there is need ther e as wel l.

Ther e are many activities in po litical parties that are qui te properly Caucus activities, but there are also the in dividual needs of memb ers, and when the y have their in divid­ ual offices the needs of tho se indi vidual mem bers can be serviced qui te well if there was additional secretar­ ial help in the various group s of offices such as roo ms

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 13 2, 13 8, 15 1 I believe it is, and two or th ree at the others. So I wou ld ask the Min ister to consider tha t request very seriously for additional secretarial staff, especially while the Hous e is in Session. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Ch airman, I thank the hono ur ­ able memb er for his com ment s.

If the memb er will recall, when I spoke to the Mem ber for Arthur , I indi­ cated and I asked him, I wan ted to find out his views whether or not the assistance in terms of secretarial help should be here within the fac ility, whether it shoul d be as well sup ported, or in the riding in which better service could be provided to the mem bers' constituents. I presume tha t some where th ere's probably some discussion going on now as to wha i better ways we as memb ers can serve our constitue nts, the people of Man itoba, in as effective a way as poss ible.

Of cou rse, one of the ways is to provide mem bers with further secretarial assistance in terms of doing necessary office work; in terms of typi ng; in terms of answeri ng the phones; in terms of letter answeri ng; in terms of filing. Whether tha t should be done as well, so tha t greater use of tha t perso nn el could be made in the areas where we directly effect people who sup port us by cas ting their ballo ts as MLAs in our own consti­ tuenc ies.

I presume there has to be some dialogue and pri ority-set ting, whether it should be that some assis­ tance is here dur ing the Session, or at the same time whether tha t assistance should be, as well, provided in the riding while mem bers are here. I'm gu essing. I don' t know whether the member is part of his gr ou p's team in terms of discus sions th at are going on now. If he is, I'm sur e tha t he will mak e, and is making his views kn own.

For myself as a memb er, alth ough I happen to be on the Treasury Bench now, my perso nal prefe rence - and I say to the honour able memb er qui te ca ndidl y - woul d be to have office assistance in terms of a better contact within my constit uenc y, to have people there. While we do have the use of our Executive Assist­ ants, being on the Treasury Bench, but th ere will be a time when we all are MLAs, and my perso nal prefer­ ence wou ld be to have assistance where I can better function for my constitue nts in the riding, where there can be day-to-day in constant contact.

At least even if it is on a limi ted part -time basis, even if it was a half-a­ day, it certainly would assist myself as a ru ral memb er - I speak as a rur al memb er - far mor e. Because after the Session I have fou nd in terms of filing, in terms of typ ing, in terms of doing thi ngs that I felt could be done by some secretarial hel p, tha t the cl oser tha t help is to where I reside in terms of my consti tuency, would have been a greater benefit to myself. MR . H. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr . Ch airman.

I just want to po int out to the Honour able Mini ster that what he is talkin g about as far as constit uenc y and secretar­ ial assistance is a statutory item. We don' t get a vote on it in the Es tima tes here at all. Any chan ges in that wou ld requir e chan ges to The Legislative Assembly Act.

But what we're tal kin g about here is the Estima tes of expend iture of the Legisla tive Assem bly, wh ich are budge tary items tha t are open for discussion and debate on the floor of the Ho use, and are matters, I suppose, that if the mem bers of the Assembly in their colle ctive wisdom wanted to incr ease a sum the y probably coul d. I have never heard of it being done and likewise they could also, by a coll ective vote of the Legislatu re, reduce some of tho se sums. But we are now tal kin g about bud getary items that are items of expendi tur e which we can discuss qui te properly at this time.

It was in that context that I was addres sing my remarks to the Hono urabl e Min ister who is charged with the responsibili ty of shepher ding these Esti­ mates through the Hous e. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr . Chairman, just a brief com­ ment to the honour able memb er. While the honour ­ able memb er is techn ically correct, I bel ieve tha t any discuss ions dealing with services to memb ers really woul d be, in all fairness, part of a package.

Whether or not there wou ld be the need for leg islative chan ges or not leg islative chan ges, they would be discussions tha t would deal with an entir e discussion of services to mem bers. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c) -pass; 4.(

d) Other Expenditur es. The Honour able Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, un der Other Expendi tu res, the Min ister indi cated he had a break­ down of tho se amou nts and was qui te prepared to give it to the mem bers here. MR. CHAIRMA N: The Honour able Minis ter. HON. B. URUS KI: Mr. Chairman, part of the 19 2, 600 th ere is a budge tary item of 47.4 for the Speaker' s Office, where there is a breakdown of various expen­ ditur es deal ing with memb ersh ip fees; of the larger ones, travel for CPA and the CPA Conf erence.

Th ose are the th ree largest ones, they would make up approx imately 40,000 of tha t 47, 000; the other seven would be dealing with office and expend itu res within the office. The remainder of tho se expenditur es, th ere are monies for the Chamber, for the Comm ittees Branch, $5, 000 for the Caucus Offices deal ing with - yes, the Gov ernme nt Caucus Office and the Opposi­ tion Caucus Office, app roxi mately $55,000 for both office s, and the Leader of the Oppos ition's Office of $20, 500.00. Tho se wou ld be basically the largest compone nts of that $1 92,000.00. MR. CHAI RM AN: The Member for Virden. MR. H.

GR AHAM: Did the honour able memb er say the Leader of the Opp osition' s Office? I believe it's already accounted for un der It em 4.(a) (3). 2810 HON. B. URUS KI: I mu st apologize. The member is correct. The figur e I quo ted, the Leader of the Opposi­ tion's Office was taken care of in the other one . I missed one item. The bulk of the item of cou rse in terms of office expenditur es is the Clerk' s office with the sum of $82,500, the bulk of which being tele­ phones and postage, appr oximately $38,000 of tha t office expenditure. MR. CHAIR MAN: 4. (d) -pass; (

e) Ha nsard -pass; ( e) ( 1) Salar ies-pass.

Thur sday, 27 May, 1982 (e)

(2) Other Exp enditur es - the Memb er for El mwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, just briefly, this matter has been discussed before, but I do want to say to the Mini ster tha t one of the thi ngs I think wou ld pro bably help Ha nsard and cert ainly would help this Chamb er was if th ere was some improve ments made in our P.A. system. I have always felt tha t this was ina dequa te, that when someone is spea king and a coup le of years ago when we had the old system, there was an ampli­ fica tion of voice which meant tha t the person on mik e, their voice wou ld carry and the y would be the domi­ nant speaker.

Today, everybody has equal voice vo lume and punch, and when th ere is hecklin g going on the speaker is drowne d because of the fact that his voice is basically natur al and the hec kler s' voices are basically natural. I think some thing should be done to imp rove the audio system in the Chamber. The other thing I say in regard to Han sard is tha t Hans ard was more interesting a few years ago, in tha t I think mor e of the int erjections often made by such lum inar y presences as the Memb er for Pembina wou ld be picked up and reported.

Even in Ottawa, where all the y do is to put down "o h, oh," which is a pretty poor translation of some of the thi ngs that are said down there, in Man itoba ther e were some of these interjections from time to ti me. Ob viou sly, they can' t all be picked up. Ob vious ly, they can't all be identified, but a person reading Han sard today comp ared to a few years ago, I think would find it far less interesting because it tends to be prec isely wha t the speaker said and a lot of the interjections which cont ain some of the colour , which is no w going on, are ign ored.

So I simply say tha t I don' t kn ow ho w this hap pened. I don' t know why some of the int erjections are dele ted or no t in clud ed in the Hans ard record, but it certa inl y makes for less interesting and colour ful reading. Now, one thing, Mr. Chairman, I want to say in par ticular to mem bers on both sides of the Ho use is that th ere is equ ipmen t that is used by Han sard tha t I think should be either mor e readily available to the Caucu ses or the Caucu ses should have their own simil ar equ ipment, and I speak par ticu larly of the word proces sing machi nes.

I think in the day and age tha t we are at in the 1980s that each Caucus could use equ ipment lik e tha t, to use the printo uts, to use the mem orie s, to use it on a sort of a comp uter basis, a storage basis in relation to existing secretarial and research staff. I mean, think it's time we go t into the 1980s and ther e's other equ ipment like that. I think ther e is some limit ation no w on photosta ting equ ipment and so on. I don' t think th ere should be.

I think tha t each Caucus should have a machine tha t the y can use to the best of their judgment and abil ity and without paying for it, which of cour se is the prob­ lem. I think tha t eac h Caucus shoul d have such equ ipment and it should be available to them for their dutie s. Mr. Chairman, this type of equ ipment available to elected memb ers has been used widely in the States for at least 20 years.

I kn ow tha t in 1964, I attended the Democratic Convention in Atlantic City and at tha t time, as an observer to see Lyndon Joh nson pick his Vice President, Hu bert Hump hr ey, after pl ayi ng a lot of games with a lot of people, I learned that most 2811 sena tors and congr essmen had access to equip ment whereby they were, in effect, early word processors and other types of machi nes.

So I simply say tha t when we are considering our own requi rements, I think that we mu st consider, in addition to staff, machine s tha t are available tha t will help us execute our duties and responsibil ities and that should be a major concern of MLAs as well. MR . CHAIRM AN: 4.(e)(2)- pass - the Honour able Mi nister. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr . Ch airman, I wou ld just like to speak on two points tha t the honour able memb er has raised deal ing with the amplif ication system tha t we have in the Chamber.

I bel ieve tha t memb ers, if the technic al people wish to tune you up, you will be amp lified loud and clear right thr ougho ut this Ch am ber. I heard the honour able memb er very well and that can be accomplished, but I believe that - if I un derstand it - the original intent for the new system was eventually to provide simu ltaneous translation in this Cham ber, and this, if you amplif y the speaker's voice at tha t po int in time, tha t co uld no t be accomp ­ lishe d by pro viding for simul taneous translation and tha t was one of the reasons.

The item tha t I am holding in my hand is calle d -y ou could hang it in on e's ear. It is really an aid for mem bers to be able to hear. As I un derstand, in Ottawa the y have used this piece of equ ipment for many years and we should not as mem bers here be at all intim idated that we may have a heari ng problem because we are wearing the earphones.

The y are her e for the use of mem bers to make sur e tha t the y pick up the speech of a mem ber, but as I und erstand it, the whole evo lvement of this new system was to provide for a simul taneous translation and that is why the amplifica tion was done away with with in the Ch am ber.

With respect to additional equ ipment and word pro­ cessing, as I under stand it, tha t service to memb ers was elimina ted for the time being by His Honour , the former Speaker, when we were in Oppos ition because mem bers were using the word proce ssing equip ment, as I un dersta nd it, at least in the Speaker's view at tha t po int in time, in excess of the budge t tha t he may have had.

I can advise the honour able memb ers tha t the Department of Gov ernment Services will be and is going to be, sh ortly after the Session ends, dealing with both Caucus es to conduc t a review to see whe ther or no t additional equ ipment such as word process ing should be and can be established within tho se offices to better provide services for mem bers. MR. R. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, I do not lik e nor do I intend to use ear phones.

I mean it could have proba­ bly been just as well to have bought 57 ear trump ets and we could have all had the se big trump ets and mo ved them arou nd in the direction of the Speaker and say thing s lik e "eh" or "come again" or "take off" as the Memb er for Pembina would say. Mr . Chairman, the other po int I make to the member is, surely to God, in this day and age whe re people can be sent to the moon and all kin ds of won derfu l techni ­ cal achie vements can be made, some body with half a brain could devise a system whereby you could have a

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 voice amplif ied in this Cham ber as you used to have and also a system whereby you could have simu ltane­ ous transla tions. I don' t know how the y do it, but in the United Nati ons the y mu st have transla tions in a dozen lan­ gua ges and sur ely it's a simple tec hn ical pro blem to have a system where you have French and English and where you have a voice amp lificat ion. If we don' t have the expertise in Hous e, I think we can ea sily hir e some audio person who co uld come in and correct that in a wink of an eye. MR. CHAIR MAN: (e)(2) -pass; 4.(f) -pass. Tha t comple tes the items to be consider ed un der Resolution No. 1. The refore

be it resolved tha t th ere be gr anted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $1,095,600 for legisla­ tion, Other Assem bly Expenditures, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983-pass. Item No. 5. Provincial Audi tor's Office, 5.(

a) Salaries - the Honour ab le leader of the Oppos ition. HON. S. LYON: I notice tha t ther e's an inc rease of someth ing in excess. of $300,000 for Salaries. Cou ld the Mini ster advise as to whether this amount is a natu ral in crease in the Provi nc ial Aud itor' s Office or what proport ion of thi s in crease is attribu table to the fact tha t the practice of using ou tside audi tors in con­ jun ction with the audi tors of the Provin cial Aud itor' s staff is now being either reviewed an d/or discon­ tinu ed by the cu rrent govern ment? MR . CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Minis ter. HON. B. URUS KI: Mr .

Chairman, to the leader of the Oppo sition. If he would wait a few mome nts, I' ll have the explanation in terms of the specifics of the Esti­ mates that are provided for and I' ll provide him with the an swer sh ortly. Mr . Chairman, th ere is a pr ovision within the se Estima tes for 10 po sitions.

Whe the r an assessment will be made on the bas is of - as the au dits of the Crown agenc ies come up the y will be evalua ted as to whether or not the office of the Provincial Aud itor can perform tho se aud its as in terms of costing, as gov­ ernment po licy, with a simi lar or less expensive cost, and tho se cha nges will be made on an individ ual basis as the aud its are being reviewed by the gove rnment. HON. S. LYON: So is it possible then, Mr .

Chairman, for the Min ister to give us a figur e, even though it may be notional at this stage, for the amount that might be req uired for aud its tha t would be done by the Provin­ cial Au ditor in lieu of tho se aud its being done by outside firms for which negotiated fees are pa id? HON. B. UR USKI: Mr . Chairman, I' m advised that the sala ries for the 10 po sitions are appr oxima tely $26 1, 700.00. HO N. S.

LYON: And it's no t poss ible, I take it, at this stage to attribute tho se 1 O extra positions to the requir ement for additional staff that wou ld be necessi­ tated by the abandon men t of private auditing firms doing work for Crown corporations or in deed for other work tha t the Provincial Aud itor, in his profes- sional wisdom, sees fit to have the m do. HO N. B. URU SKI: Mr . Chairman, when the original sh ift was made from the Provincial Aud itor's Office to private aud itors, a rel inqu ishment of 10 positions took place at that point in time.

At this po int in tim e, that same amount of staff man years are being placed back into the Bu dget, but un til such a time as an agency- by­ agency review is made on the basis of costs and pro­ jections, to be very specific to the leader of the Oppo­ sition, I can' t give that determi nation to the leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, I can appreciate that. Tha t's why I was tal king in terms of it being a notional figur e at this stage, because it's app arently a proposi­ tion that has not been finally agr eed to by the govern­ ment.

The figur e I wou ld be interested in getti ng, and it may not be poss ible to obtain it to night but some ­ time before the Estim ates review is com pleted, would be a fig ur e wh ich woul d sho w the totality of the cost of hir ing - in the case of the 10 positions tha t are added to the Audit or's Office - the totality of tha t cost in terms of salary; in terms of office equ ipment; in terms of secretarial staff; in terms of pension benefits; in terms of all of the array of services and infrastructure that go es to sup port any memb er of the Civil Service of Man itoba. 2812 I ask for that figur e, I' m not tryi ng to hide any thing at all, because I belie ve tha t - and it's only a bel ief, I can' t demon strate the com plete accu racy of it - if we were to compute on a per-auditor basis the full totality of the cost of hiring an auditor in terms of what his sick benefits are going to be; his holi day pay is going to be; the fact tha t he or she works for a good emp loyer in the Provi nce of Mani toba, which someti mes thr ou gh ne gotiation and so on, gives better hol iday pay than private emp loyers do, etc., etc., etc. - all of the nu an­ ces tha t go into emp loyment.

I would lik e to see the totality of that figur e in order that we, along with the mem bers of the go vernment who are appa rently mak­ ing this comp ar ison, will have some idea as to the que stion of costs, say, as between contrac ting this profe ssional service from private audit firms or havi ng it done in-hou se as seems to be the de sire of the present gov ern ment.

Now having said tha t, I realize, and the Provincial Aud itor is here and he can co rrect the Min ister or correct me if I' m wrong thr ou gh the Min ister, tha t it has been the practice of the Gov ernment of Man itoba for mor e years than I can remem ber, even in the times of the Schr eyer Govern ment from '69-77 when th ere was a shif t away from the private auditing firms and to have that work done in-ho use, there was still the residual power on behalf of the Provi ncial Audi tor, which he should have, to farm out par ticular audi ts tha t he wanted to have done, in deed to the consterna­ tion - if not the su rpri se- of one of the former Mini sters of Fina nce at a Pub lic Accounts Commit tee Meeting back in '76 or '77.

The present Provinci al Aud itor advised the then gov ernm ent that, of cou rse, he was farm ing out certain work to be done , because tha t was the most efficient way to do it and it had no thing to do with the apparent desire of the gov ernment not to have that kind of contrac tin g-out done. He was doing it out of a pure profe ssional sense of getting it done in

the best way tha t was possible at the time and I pre­ sume tha t he took costs into acco un t. I make it clear, Mr . Chairman, th at I'm not makin g any pitch for profess ional services, be they account­ in g, be the y legal, be they engi neering, archit ectural or whatever, to be total ly farmed out. Tha t has never been the case in Mani toba at all.

The Provincial Aud i­ tor, to the best of my kn owledge, going back thr ough people such as Geor ge Il iffe and some of the distin­ gui shed predecessors of our present Provincial Audi ­ tor, al ways had a fair amount of leeway and a fa ir amount of determina tion tha t the y could make on their own, unencumb ered, if I may say so, by the political bia ses of the govern men t of the day to do what was best in terms of the Provincial Aud itor's job. The Provincial Aud itor, after all, is not respon sible to the Go verment of the Day.

He and his staff are responsible to this Legislatu re and tha t being the case, rather than have a gov ernment make a determi­ nation based up on its cu rrent and some time s un ex­ pl ainable bias against profess ional firms on the ou t­ side hel ping the Provinc ial Au ditor in the massive job that he has, I think it's mor e imp ortant that this Legis­ la tur e be seized of all of th ose facts, because it is the Provinci al Aud itor answ ers to this Legislature, not to the cur rent Mi nister who is answ ering on his behalf, not to the Mini ster of Fi nance, not the Premier of the Day, whoever he may be, but to this Legislatur e and, in deed, the legisla tion establishing the office of the Provincial Aud itor makes his position semisacrosanct in the sense tha t he ca nno t be dism issed by the Gov­ ern ment of the Day.

It requir es a two-thi rds vote of this Legisl ature. So when a determi nation is made by a govern men t - and all govern ments are transient , and no one is in a better position to state tha t axiom than perhap s myself and my suc cessor who will find tha t to be the case - all govern ments are transient, and these determi nations about auditing which goes to the hear t really of what Parliament is all about . You've heard me say on so many occa sions what I believe to be the case, that Parl iament is about the voting of sup ply.

If you didn' t have sup ply to vote, you wouldn 't have as much of a need for Parliament because you'r e ta king mo ney from people, from the taxpayers, and you'r e acti ng as a temp orary trus tee, gov ernment is, to make sur e that mo ney is properly spent on behalf of the taxpayers. It is the job of the Audi tor to ensur e through his own staff and through the staff tha t he is able to hir e from profess ional audi t firms in the Provi nce of Ma nito ba, that this job is being properly done. Tha t's why his job is so key.

That is why his job is put beyond the tran­ sient wh ims and some time s the misch ievous desires of govern ment to change people around and so on. He reports to us, to all 57 of us, and before he makes any fun damen tal ch ange s in the method by wh ich he carries out his statutory responsi bil ity. I merely feel tha t it is incum bent up on the temp orary Government of the Day to report as to whether or not the Au ditor is satisfied with this proced ur e. In deed, in Public Accounts Comm ittee we can que stion the Au ditor perso nally an d-to put it in street pa rlanc e, Mr .

Chair ­ man - he doesn't have to give a tin ker's damn literally about the par ticu lar bias of a gov ern ment of the mom ent. He has the statutory responsibili ty to carry through and I mer ely want to ensur e tha t when the 1982 mem bers of the gov ernment say tha t their onl y con­ cern in matters of this sort is cost effectiveness and havi ng, as I do, a well -kn own view about how the par ticu lar variety of ND Per tha t gets into gov ern ment in this provinc e kn ows very little about cost effective­ ness, when tha t kind of statement is made I want to lo ok into it.

As one memb er of this Ho use, I want to lo ok at it pretty carefu lly, because I am not in the habit of going out and ask ing the ar sonis t to tell me how to put out the fi re; I am not in the habi t of leaving the fox in ch arge of the chic ken coop . Tha t's why the Audi ­ tor's job is extremely imp ortant and why we mus t be satisfied, each of us, eac h of the 57 mem bers of this Ho use, tha t what is being served here is the pu blic interest, not the particu lar mischie vous wh im or anti p­ rofess ional attitude tha t may have been carried for­ ward from one or more Min isters of a previous regi me.

I am very fa mil iar with tho se attitudes and with the antip rofes sion al bias tha t obtai ns in one or two mem bers of the present Treasury Bench which, you kn ow, really does them no credit and does no service to the pu blic interest of Man itoba. So when the state ment is advanced tha t cost effec­ tiveness is the onl y test with respect to whether private audi tors are able to be used by the Provincial Audi tor with respect to out side aud its, the n I think we have to put that statement to the test.

I, as one memb er of the Hou se, want to see all the facts and the figur es that this gov ern ment has in its possession before it makes any rad ical ch ange in the auditing pract ice of the Provi nc e of Mani toba. 2813 I say tha t because the auditing prac tice of the Prov­ in ce of Mani toba is not uni qu e.

All other gov ern ments in Canada, save perhap s - and I don' t know thi s for a fact - but save perhap s with other aberra tions tha t occur in provinces lik e Saskatchewan or B.C. where the y from time to time have social ist governm ents that tend a bit, regrettably, to be some time s antip rofes­ sional. All of the other norm al provin ces in Canada including Mani toba up un til the 30th of November, 19 81, had a mix of private audi tors assisting the Public Aud itor, to the best of my kn owledge and informati on. In fact, the Federal Gov ernment do es, accor ding to my inf ormation, much the same thing.

So what we are merely trying to do is to determine, Mr . Chairman, tha t the su gges tion that has already been made in this Ho use by one or two of the Mi nis­ ters, act uated app arently by some of the funny ideas that flew about in the Schr eyer years, we should find out tha t the auditing practices of the Provin cial Audi­ tor are to his satisfact ion; that the figu res that are being used to justify the alle ged cost effectiveness of doing the busine ss in-hou se are real figur es and tha t the y acco unt for the totality of costs of hir ing extra staff.

I say tha t, of cou rse, because my honour able friends opposite have this penchant for building up a big centr aliz ed bur eaucracy; tha t is part of their ideol­ ogy and they're entitled to it. But dur ing the brief time tha t the y're in office, we don' t have to be in flicted with all of the errors of their ideolog y, par ticula rly, Mr . Chairman, when it come s to some thing as fu ndamen ­ tally imp ortant as the au dit.

Now, the other po int I mentioned, which is axio­ matic, which I have heard the Provincia l Aud itor state on different occas ions. is thi s, and it's so app arent that it shouldn' t have to be stated, but app arently it does

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 for the benefit of some of my honour able friends opposite. One of the advantages of havi ng an outside audit is tha t you bring to the books of the Crown corporation or of gov ernment tha t kin d of exposure to the private sector that people in the outside practice of accountancy have. In other words, they can bring an experience to the work of gov ernment audit that they gl ean in their day-to-day operat ions from doing the books of outside comp an ies and seeing what the dif­ ferent acc ounting practices are. They are up -to-date in every respect.

This is in no way, by any sense of implic ation or in nu endo or anyth ing else, any criti­ cism of the Provinci al Audi tor or of his staff. I am sur e he ag rees with this. What it does bring is an enrich­ ment of the kind of job that he and his staff can do with that kin d of injection of outside private-sector expe­ rienc e being brought to bear upon the books of the Crown corporat ions of this province and, ind eed, of some of the departments of this province if the need should arise.

Now I have heard tha t argument advanced by many people and it's an argument tha t I know is no t in disfa vour with the Provin cial Au ditor. I merely put it in, not because it is germane to the que stion of cost, but because it is a factor tha t bears upon the practice tha t is foll owed in most other jur isdictions of using fai rly generously the ou tside services of private audi tors for the benefit of the public.

It hasn't got a heck of a lot to do with cost effectiveness, because the cost effective­ ness is prac tically taken for grant ed in the sense tha t the services that are offered by different auditing firms in clude all of the housing costs, all of the pay costs, all of the pension costs, all of the other costs tha t firm mu st bear, so lh at the taxpayers of Man itoba don' t have to bear it on a conti nuin g basis.

So with out tr ying to make the full and complete ar gu men t tha t should n't have to be made in a com­ monsense Legisla tur e with respect to a practice tha t is foll owed in mo st other civil ized jur isdictions in the world, I merely ask my honour able frien d, the Min is­ ter, Mr .

Chairman, to ensur e that on the que stion of cost effectiveness we be given the totality of the costs that are involved with respect to the hir ing, in this instance, of 1 O new au ditors, all of the matters tha t I have mentione d before includ ing the cost of their offi­ ces, their secretarial staff, the pension benefits, the whole sh ooti ng match so tha t we can be in a position to mak e some kind of an assessment based upon the al leged reason for making the chan ges put forward from time to time by the gove rnment benches. HON. B.

UR USKI: I am advised by the Provincial Aud­ itor, to the Leader of the Oppos ition, on the specific que stion of cost. The direct salary costs and an addi­ tio nal 25 percent onto the direct salary costs tha t are provided wou ld cover all the costs deal ing with pen­ sions, hol iday pay, in terms of the staffi ng costs related to auditing. With respect to furni tur e and office space, the Provi ncial Aud itor occupies space within this building, th ose costs I would not have includ ed, the costs of pro vid in g the furn itur e and the space within the offices. Mr.

Cha irman, the Leader of the Oppos ition indi­ cated tha t it is a worthw hile exercise. You know , I think he should recal l when his govern ment made the ch ange, the transition into both public and private aud itors, and when they moved to the private aud itors, how it was done . Without ask ing for proposals ther e was a directive given, on the basis of gov ernment po licy, that this firm shall be the firm that will be doing the audi t on this agency.

The Leader of the Opp osition should also recall, I give him one specific example, and ther e are other s I bel ieve, bu t the one tha t I am most fa mil iar with was the audit of the Ma nitoba Pub lic In sur anc e Corpora­ tion. The cost of that audi t, and here is where one can get into the argu ment of the scope and the additional cost that migh t be un dertaken, but the cost of the audi t went from - I go from memor y - from $38,000 went up to, I believe, $68,000 in one fell swoop in terms of that aud it.

That audit was pre viously done by the Provincial Audi tor and all the costs would have been passed on to the corpora tion. I'm assu min g tha t in terms of the costs that would have been assessed to th ose agenc ies, wou ld have been tho se tha t I indi­ cated a direct salary cost pl us 25 percent, would be the way the agencies have been bil led. What wouldn 't have been bill ed to the agencie s wou ld be what a nor mal markup or profit wou ld be in terms of tha t agenc y, normal office rental space per audi tor and secretarial, not secretarial help but dea ling with office space that would be re quir ed.

Tho se would not have been charged to tho se agencie s. But on purely cost effe ctiveness, in terms of, and only if one is an aud itor could be able to give the precise answer, if the scope of the audit was simil ar from one year to the next, in terms of the way the audit is being conduc ted, then one has the measur ement of whether or no t there is a direct comp ariso n, and that has to be taken into account if th ere is going to be a change as wel l.

As to whether th ere is a change in scope of the audit tha t is to be un dert aken, whether th ere are new methods, chan ges in opera tion as I un derstand it, tho se ki nds of factors wou ld have to be taken into account with the change in audit . 2814 I' ve given the honour able memb er the way the Pro­ vincial Au ditor bill s the cl ients and the costs that are passed on. Tha t analysis as well will be made by the Treasury Board and by Cabi net as to when and how the Provi ncial Aud itor, and the timing of th ose aud its will be transferred, or not transferred.

In the interv ening time, I un derstand as well that the Provincial Aud itor does, as the Leader of the Opposi­ tion has pointed out, from time to time as necessary, con tract or hir e in dependent firms, private firms to assist as the need arises in terms of the staff. I put down to the Leader of the Oppos ition one way of handling thi s. Th ere is another way; without even chang ing the policies of how to handle the audi ts, the govern ment and the Legisla tive Assembly can say this is the Bud get of the Provincial Aud itor.

Yet he will conduc t all the aud its, and if you don' t provide the staf fing tha t is requir ed to cond uct tho se aud its, there is no alter­ native for the Provincial Au ditor but to go to an out­ side firm and hir e it because if the audit has to be done and the fund s, in terms of staffi ng, are not provided the re is no other recou rse but to go that route. I mean th ere's several ways of handling tha t. We have put it out front, in terms of sa ying tho se were the staff that were let go in terms of the sh ift tha t the gov ernment made at the po int in time that the y made the sh ift. We

Thursday, 27 May, 19 82 are sa ying that upon the review it appears on the recom mendation of the Provincial Aud itor that it will req uir e the same amoun t of staff to do th ose aud its, and when the ana lysis is done at tha t po int in time, tho se chan ges will be made. HON. S. LYON: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Mi nis­ ter for the in formation tha t he has been able to provide tonight, and I real ize tha t the estimate tha t has been given to him as we sit here tonight is only a ballp ark estima te, and it's not the kind of defin itive estima te tha t I think a Treasury Board or this Legislatur e would want to act upon.

We want to know the totality of the cost, and you can't get at the totality of the cost un less you look at the cost of air condi tio ning; the cost of heati ng; the cost of put ting the light s in the office; the total cost tha t is attributable to keeping an au ditor; a profes­ sional person on staff; secretarial; paper - the whole shooting match. You can take a stab at it, perhaps, and say 25 percent is a good ballp ark figu re; we want to see the figur es.

I know tha t the y're perhap s not avail­ able tonigh t, and I mer ely say to the Min ister that before the Treasury Board arroga tes un to itself a decision to change a system which is applied in this prov ince for the better part of a 100 years, cha nged only dur ing tha t br ief period from '69-77 when we had the first Mark One of a social ist gove rnmen t; before the y change from no rmalit y back to abnormalit y, let us get the figur es so tha t each of us in this Ho use to whom the Provi ncial Au ditor mu st report, is seized of the figu res and can have our jud gm ent brought to bear on this matter just as well as the mem bers of the Treasury Board.

I say tha t, because gov ernme nts - to repeat the axiom agai n - are transient creat ur es, and transient creatures should never do irrever sible harm to institu­ tiona l ized systems tha t are the re to protect the public interest. I for one, Mr. Chairman, do not intend to stand idly by in this Hous e, and watch institutional­ ized systems which have a proven worth for the public interest, be changed, sometime s for the spoken rea­ son of being cost effective but rather mor e often , I fear, to serve some kind of blind and pri mit ive preju­ dice of the tran sient Govern men t of the Day. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr .

Chairman, I find the words of the Leader of the Oppos ition very hollow in terms of the comm ents tha t he is making about -(I nter ­ jection) - well, Mr . Ch airman, the Leader of the Opp osition migh t want to make any kind of comm ents he wants about my und erstan ding or not un derstand­ ing, but I say tha t again tha t I find th ose comm ents qui te hollow in terms of him now standing up in his place, and yet when he was the Premier of this prov­ in ce doing, without regard to the system tha t was in place in terms -(Int erjection)- well, Mr .

Chairman, he now calls it a transient system, the way he app ointed the aud itors without calling for tenders, without qu otes. He went and said, "A" firm, you are doing this - one could accuse the now Leader of the Opposition of clear pork-barrel ling in terms of the au dits that he al lowed by govern ment decree. If tha t isn't a transient system tha t was brought in and clearly, Mr. Chairman, he did no t even want to ackn owledge tha t the costs, tha t the direct costs of audit s, and I gave him one example -(Int erjection)- well, Mr .

Chairman, then let the honour able mem bers sho w us how the Memb er for Stur geon Creek, who says it was not done tha t way. I want to know from the Leader of the Opp osition how it was done; how did they app oint tho se audit ors and that the y went out and said, "P rovi ncial Aud itor, you no lo ng er need 10 staff, because by goverment po licy, we are movi ng to the private aud itors and we app oint "A" firm, "B" firm, "C" firm for these kinds of jobs." And, Mr .

Chairman, talk about cost effective­ ness, when an audit overn ight prac tically doub les for one agen cy, how cost effective was tha t change and how cost effective were we? Were the people of Mani­ toba to be well served when they paid double? For what reason, Mr . Chai rman ? I'll tell you for what rea­ son. To be able to tel l the people of Mani toba tha t we've redu ced the numb ers of civil servants in this Provinc e of Mani toba. For that reason alone, Mr.

Chairman, because what we could do is say tha t now we have less civil servants but we are pay ing for them thr ough the no se by havi ng outside contr acts thr ough a scheme of pork-barrel ling, Mr . Chairman, nothing else but. So, Mr . Chairman, let the Leader of the Opp osition not stand in his place her e this even ing and tell us how cost effective his admin istration was in terms of how the y hand led the auditing. That is only one example, Mr . Chairman, of how th ey've hand led the Civil Ser­ vice in the Provinc e of Manit ob a. Tha t was the game tha t was played; a pure shell game; a numb ers game .

Bu t, Mr . Ch airman, obviously it didn 't work. It didn 't work and people did n' t belie ve him tha t the y were, in fact, savi ng mone y because the y knew tha t it did and I gave him one example. I wou ld have to go through the figur es - the one example that I know for certain and the y admit it, Mr . Chairman, tha t it wou ld cost mor e. What did we gain by th ose additional costs? So, Mr.

Ch airman, I say again, I find the words of the Leader of the Oppos ition qui te hollow when he tries to make a case and stand in this Assem bly and indic ate tha t we want to exam ine the records of what the gov­ ernme nt is doing in this area, because governm ents are only transient and the system tha t was in place for eight years is only an aberration and we want to go back to the transi tional, trad itional system in this province. 2815 Mr . Ch airman, in the last 12 years, who has been the aberra tion? Mr .

Chairman , it has been the Con serva­ tive party since, in the last decade, in the last decade­ an d-a-half we will see who has been the aberra tion. We will see, Mr . Chairman, and fr ankl y speaking - (Int erjection)- oh yes, the Honour able Memb er for Pembin a ind icates "you bet we will." Well, Mr. Chair ­ man, absolutely we will. The people of Ma nitoba have jud ged; the y've judged you r admin istration - the one­ term ad min istration and the y will judge again. Th ere is just no doub t about tha t. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr .

Chairman, I want to thank the Min ister for making the level of contr ibution to this debate tha t we have come to expect from him. It's obviously pointless in pur suing fur the r que stions with one so cynic al and one with so little und erstan ding of how profes sional services are obtained and so I'm not going to waste my time, or the time of the Ho use in

Thursday, 27 May, 19 82 trying to get blo od out of a stone or information out of this Min ister. I merely serve no tice that we will want to see in this Ho use and he can give it to his colleague, the Mini ster of Fi na nce or whome ver, the facts and the figur es upon which the Treasury Board of Mani toba makes any dete rmi nation with respect to retu rning to the rather abn orma l system tha t the NOP established in this prov ince in 1969, 1970.

I can onl y say for the record, without getting into any of the detail at all, that of cour se profess ional people are nin e time s out of ten appo inted without tender. If my honour able friend kn ew anyth ing about profess ional life he would und erstand why that is the case and he would un derstand as well, Mr . Chairman, tha t one of the responsibili ties, as I un derstand it, of the Provincia l Au ditor was to negotiate the price of the fee that the aud itors from the outside would char ge.

My honour able friend will perhaps be un aware of that kin d of inf orm ation but I' ve put it on the record merely for the sake of tho se who do better un derstand what we're tal king about. It's not my pu rpose in raising this po int to get into a long diatribe about , transient gov ernm ents or any­ thing of that na tur e at all. But I mer ely say again to my honour able friends tha t the y need not think, dur ing their all too shor t term of office, tha t the y will be making any fund ame ntal chan ges to the institutions of this prov ince without hea ring from this side of the Hous e.

I need not remind the Min ister in que stion tha t it was the prev ious gov ernment tha t gave this provi nce the greatest accoun ta bil ity, in terms of qu arterly reports of the financial statements, which were sup ported by the Provin cial Aud itor. It was the previ ous govern­ ment which acted upon the recomme nd ations of the Provi ncial Audi tor with respect to the combining of the acco un ts of cu rrent and capital, because the Pro­ vi ncial Aud itor had been saying to the prev ious gov­ ern ment that he really could n't tell. He put a footnote in his Annua l Report each year.

He could n't say how mu ch was capita l, how much was cu rrent because flim flamme ry could go on with respect to items being char ged agains t capital accou nts when the y should really be cu rrent account s. So it was our gov ern ment agai n tha t went along with the recom menda tion of the Provi ncial Aud itor, not onl y with respect to accou nta­ bility, but with respect to the method of prese nta tion of the Estimates which, by the way, po litically is not as good.

It was no t as good for our gov ern ment and cert ainl y is not as good for my honour able friends opposite as the previous method, because you could hide thing s in Capital and tha t's precisely what they were doing. But it is better in the public interest that it be done thi s way, and if my honour abl e friends - and I say this in the absenc e of the Min ister of Fi nanc e, who's app arently accord ing to the new spaper, spre ading his gr eat wisdom with respect to hyd ro­ electric energy some where in Cal iforn ia ton igh t - (Interjec tion)- no, I don't object to it at all.

I just make mention of the fact tha t the Mi nister is not here and my com ments are directed particula rly to the Min ister of Fi nanc e tha t any su ggestion of change, any sug ges­ tion that he makes of tryi ng to change the method of accounting which is now in place in this province wh ich follow s, I think, the method of acc oun ting tha t is used not only by the Federal Gov ern ment, but by at least six or seven of the other provinces, if no t mor e than that of Canada, will be met with the same kind of resistance that we will meet with any other attempted badgeri ng of the fu ndam ental institutions of this prov­ ince by tho se who are temporarily in office.

MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Min ister of Natu­ ral Resou rces. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Ch airman, I want to add a few remarks in this deba te to in dicate my concern about the tenor of the Leader of the Oppo sition' s remarks. I adm ire the Leader of the Opposition in the manner in which he speaks. He speaks well; he argue s well, but he destroys his argu ment by arguing so comp letely one -sided and including in tha t arg um ent the use of un necessar y vitriolic, un necessary partisan trigger words that add nothing, Mr. Ch airman, to the otherwise lo gic of an argu ment he's prese nting. I, Mr .

Chair man, want to ind icate tha t the Hono urable Leader of the Oppos ition presents a log ical arg um ent, but it is so completely one -sided. To be fair to this institution, you have to consider the val ue of the Provi ncia l Aud itor's role to this institu­ tion and to the public.

You kn ow, if you were to follow the lo gic of the Leader of the Oppo sition, you wou ld expect at least some of the large private corpora tions in thi s pr ovinc e to be fair to cal l up on the Provi ncial Audi tor or some public audi tor for which the y had no contr ol to audit the books of the private corporation because that, in essence, is what he's saying. You should have a check, a balance.

Now , the sh are­ hold ers of large corpora tions don't have the privile ge of call ing upon the Pub lic Audi tor, someone who is app ointed and he has tenur e to che ck on their own audit ors of their private company, but tha t's the kin d of logic he's sug gesting, tha t you shoul d have some measure of this in society. The arg um ent he's adv ancing really is that you can't trust pu blic institutions. You have to have private insti­ tutions to be a check on them and that's the philo ­ sophy tha t un derli nes the concern and the negative attitude of the Leader of the Oppos ition. He is no t pro- govern ment.

He has, through his ad min istration, been anti -govern men t and the adminis trative mecha­ nisms of this institution are really not all tha t enth usi­ astically endor sed by him and so the Provincial Audi­ tor is govern ment; less govern ment, mor e in the private sector. Tha t's the philo sophy of the Leader of the Opp osition, but tha t ind icates a basic distrus t of this institution and a basic distrust of the role of the Provincial Audi tor. I think tha t, sur e, there may be a role for private auditing and that happ ens.

I don' t think that in the life of this gov ern ment or in any successive gov ernme nt, all audi ts will be done 100 percent by the Provinci al Audi tor because tha t may just not be practical or pos­ sible , but the idea of havi ng Crown corpora tions who are controlled by the people, contr olle d by this Legis­ latu re, accou nted for and aud ited by a servant of this Legisla tu re, tha t makes sense philo sophically, logi ­ cally, accou ntable here. Tha t's the way the system should operate. 2816 I am not saying it should be excl usive, but the Hon­ our able Leader arg ues so much for private enterprise

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 and agains t govern ment. Th at's what is the un derlin­ ing prem ise of his phi losophy; it's negative to him to have to acc ept a greater role for govern men t in society and that's his pro blem. I am sorry he has such a prob­ lem phi losoph ical ly. HON. S. l YON: Mr .

Chairman, on the commen ts of the Min ister of Natu ral Resou rces, I'm sur e that he is aware as I am aware, my un derstandin g - I haven't cracked the statute recently - tha t regardless of whether the actual mechanic s of the audit are done by X firm, Y firm or Z firm, the Provi ncial Aud itor still, acc ording to my un derstan ding, is responsible for that and reports to this Legislatu re. Really, all you are tal king about in terms of this rather odd digr ession tha t was made by the Mem ber for St.

Jame s or the Min ister of Resour ces, is really my honour able friend is argui ng against the propo sition that the Provi ncia l Au ditor should be able to hir e outside hands to do a job for which ul timately and statutorily he is responsi­ ble in any event. I have never heard this Provi ncial Aud itor arg ue against tha t propo sition.

In fact, I put the que stion to him, I think it was in the Public Accou nts Comm ittee of 19 77 and the Hans ard's th ere for checking - my memor y is as fau lty as anyone else's - but my recoll ec­ tion of the discussion with the present Provincial Au d­ itor in tha t comm ittee and that's perhaps where we should be ta lking about this because the Provincial Audi tor the re has a voic e and can say, as he did in 19 77, that he had absolutely nothing agains t private aud its at all because tha t was extra help for him, tha t he and hi s staff benefited from the additional expo­ sur e that private audit ors have to the private sector and that, ind eed, a par ticular audi t of one of the Crown corporat ions had been hande d over by him to a pri­ vate audit or because he thought tha t was the most efficient way to have it done at the time of the Schr eyer Govern men t.

I daresay tha t my recolle ction again was that some of the Min isters of the Schr eyer Govern­ men t were rather su rprised that the Provi ncial Audit or was using that kin d of an approach because it made so muc h sense. We have always, Mr . Chairman, had the mixed sys­ tem in Man itob a and what we are ar guing about is degrees. We are no t arg uing so mu ch about ideology or phil osophy about go vern ment or anyth ing else. Wha t we are ar gui ng about is deg ree because it's alw ays been a mixed system.

It is true tha t norm al non socialis t gover nm ents in Cana da tend to favo ur a greater util ization of profes sional out side firms whe­ reas soci alis t gov ernme nts - and I suppose if I wanted to beco me ideolog ical about this - in service of their rather funny ideas of a big centralized gr owing bur eaucracy which ul timately will contr ol the whole world and the state and so on, want to -(I nter ­ jectio n)- well, no, I'm not getting into that argument at all.

I wish I could attribut e this aberration to some thing tha t has some basis in intelle ct or log ic, rather than she er prej udic e, but all I am saying, Mr . Chairman, is that my honour able friend is a bit mixed up on it as well because he talks about the private sector having access to the Provin cial Au ditor. Wel l, maybe in the great social ist state of all socialis t states someday tha t will come about where big brother audit or who is emp loyed by the Provi ncial or the Federal Govern­ ment will have to pass jud gm ent upon all the books.

I rather have the feeling - and I can't speak for the Provi ncia l Aud itor of Man itoba - I rat her have the feeling that the present Provincial Au ditor has qui te enough to do, thanks very much, and would n't relish the though t, even though his ideological transient masters, for the time being, might favo ur that kind of an approac h. But what rather intrig ued me, Mr . Cha irman, was the analo gy that was drawn by the Min ister of Natur al Resou rces in saying tha t somehow or other th ere's some thing wrong with gov ernme nt. We're not saying that at all.

We val ue and respect the office of the Provinc ial Aud itor and we demo nstrate it by giving him all of the extra tools that he can have in terms of the best people tha t he can draw in, not necessa rily as bu reaucrats, but the best brain power that he can have access to right across thi s pro vinc e. It reminds me and it doesn't any mor e astound me, although it used to, and I used to hear people such as the Memb er for St. Ja mes, the Mi nister of Resou rces, argue in student parl iament s many mor e years ago than eithe r of us wou ld lik e to remem ber, his thinki ng hasn't changed one bit. Not one bit.

He has an absol ute misu nder standing of the private sector and the tests tha t he applies are always amusing. Under our co rporate law, our comp anie s law in Ma nitoba and in deed un der the federal comp anie s law as well, private comp an ies are req ui red to have outside audi tors. All large compan ies, medium sized comp ani es as well, especially pu blic comp an ies, do have their internal auditing staff and wou ldn't it be cozy if they could just do their own books every year.

But in the pu blic interest and for the benefit of shar e­ ho lder s and for the benefit of seeing that things are properly run and even with this protect ion in place, mistakes occ ur and inventories are overvalued and unde rvalued and so on and so for th, but notwithstand­ ing tha t, the law as it applies to the private sector is tha t private sector comp anie s by the law passed by this Legisla tur e are re quir ed to have out side aud itors -are requir ed by law. 2817 My honour able friend is arguing, I think, from a rather sticky wicket when he tries to say that all of the audi ts should be done intern ally by the Provincial Audi tor, even though that's not the most efficient way of doing it, and even though the private sector, Mr . -(I nterjecti on)- what po int of order?

You haven't got a po int of order. MR. CHAIRM AN: Or der please. Or der please. Or der please. The Honour able Min ister of Na tur al Resou rces on a po int of order. HON. A. MACKLING : The honour able member is impl ying to me that I have stated a set of facts which I have not. I have not ind icated tha t all audi ts mus t be done by the Provi ncial Au ditor, no t at all.

You see, the honour able memb er wants to get into this phi losoph ic trap tha t he puts hi mself in, tha t every thing has to be black and white and that's not the case. -(I nter ection)- Wel l, I did not say tha t all aud its had to be done by the Provincial Audi tor.

Thur sday, 27 May, 1982 MR. CHAIR MAN: I do not bel ieve the Honou rable Min ister had a point of order. Ho wever. he will feel better; he has clarified the record. The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: A dif ference of opin ion is not a point of order, Mr . Cha irman. I'm gl ad tha t you. as a new member of the Ho use, have come to un derstand tha t. My honour able friend and I will always have a differ­ ence of opinion until he comes to his senses. but that's not my problem; tha t's his problem. All that I'm saying. Mr .

Ch airman . is that I found his ana logy a rather odd one in tha t he is pr epared as a member of thi s Legisla­ tur e. as in deed we all are, to su ppor t a law which makes one test for all priv ate comp a.nies in Mani toba. but on the other hand. he and his colle ague s tempor ­ arily in office. are saying tha t the same people that we forced by law to do the audit of priv ate comp an ies shouldn 't be helping the Provi ncial Audi tor of Mani­ toba to do the pu blic audi t.

Now. if you can find any lo gic. if you can find any intelle ctual persuasion in that position. then it escapes me. but I think the point has been made even to the point where perhaps the Mini ster un dersta nds it. so I have noth ing mor e to say except this: tha t we want the figur es. We want the figu res tha t are used before any change is made from the util ization by the Provinci al Au ditor of out side firms. MR. CHAIR MAN: 5.(a ) -pa ss - the Hono ur able Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr . Cha irman.

I'm wondering if the Min ister would also be prepared whe n he provides the inf orma tion tha t the Honour able Leader of the Op po­ sition has requested. to prepare com parative inf orma ­ tion for the years imme diately after the changing gov­ ern ment in 19 77 showing the costs of the staff versus the costs of the new aud its and also provide informa­ tion on how th ose au dits were awarded and whether or not any proposals were made in terms of th ose awards when he provides tha t inf ormation. MR. CHAIR MAN: 5.(a ) -pass - the Hono ur able Minis ter. HON. B. UR USKI: Yes. Mr.

Ch airman, I would thinK that we should be able to provide all tha t inf orma tion. I repeat to the Leader of the Op position as well that we will try and have an assessment made in terms of the other costs deal ing with office and furnitur e. but in terms of the figur e tha t I gave him with respect to staff. is the figur e tha t has been widely accepted and has been presented to me. It isn't my figu re.

It is the figur e tha t is used for acc ou nting pu rposes by the Provincial Au ditor and tha t is the normal figur e that is attri buted to all staffing costs. the additional office costs. and it is by Or der-in-Cou ncil and that inf orma tion will be made available. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: I' d like to thank the Mini ster. Mr . Chairman. and without casting any aspersions on the bal lp ark figur e of 25 percent, the figur es I'm ask ing for are the real actual figu res, not the bal lp ark figur es. HON. B.

URUS KI: To the best of our abili ty. we'll try and provide them for you MR. CHAIR MAN: 5. (a) -pass; 5.(

b) Other Expen ditu res-pass. Please see items und er Resolution No. 2 - Th erefore

be it resolved tha t th ere be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,044,800 for Legislation, Provi n­ cial Aud itors's Office. for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March. 19 83. Item No. 6. Om budsman. 6.(

a) Salar ies-pass; 6. (

b) Other Expen ditures-pass. Please see items to be consider ed under Resolution No. 3 - Th erefore

be it resolved tha t th ere be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum no t exceed ing $206,600 for Leg­ islation. Om budsman. for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1983-pass. Re solution No. 4. the El ectoral Of fice. 7.(

a) Salarie s-pass. 7.(

b) Other Expenditur es -t he Ho nour able Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman. dealing with the office of the Chief Electoral Office. I think perhaps this is probably the year in wh ich because an election was rather fresh in our mind. we should be considering the electoral proced ur es and considering the possibility of any change or pointing out some of the weakne sses tha t appear to have been prevalent dur ing past elections. 2818 I refer specifically. Mr .

Ch airman. to the problems that seem to have occu rred in the opera tion of the Chief Electoral Office with the payment of poll clerks. deputy returning officers and rentals of various halls for the cond uct of the poll. It wou ld appear from my reco lle ction that the re was qui te a bit of a hold back in the actual office of the Chief Ele ctoral Office where the y checked and doub le-checked every set of figur es before the y were put forward for payment. Then.

I believe. after they had been ch ecked and double ­ chec l<ed th ere. tho se figur es were then put forward and were che cked and double -checked before the y were appr oved for payme nt. The result was that there was a time lag of six, seven. eight weeks and in some cases even longer before legitima te acco un ts were left un paid. I bel ieve tha t. as a result of tha t. I think ther e should be an int ernal review probably taken of methods of speed ing up the payment of qui te no rmal election expens es. I kn ow it would leave the citizenr y of the province mu ch happier . I kn ow in my own per­ sonal case.

I had nu merous teleph one cal ls from peo­ ple wondering when they were going to get paid. I think tha t this is a go od time now. while these thi ngs are still fresh in our minds, to cause a review to be made in the office of the Chief Electoral Officer probably by him self and two or thr ee other probably in dependent people. to see if there isn't some way of streamlining the payment of electoral expenses tha t are qui te legitima te and do cause an em barrass ment to a num erous amount of people in the province. when th ere seems to be no log ical reason for holding up the payments. HON. B. UR USKI : Mr .

Chairman, I have to tell the

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 honour able mem ber that the re were problems and even I happen to have been on an open -line radio prog ram in the City of Br andon when calls of that natu re, deal ing with expenses which were not paid; this was, I bel ieve, in the month of Janu ary or Feb ru­ ary. Th ere were dela ys in paym ents. Part of it, as I under stand it, was the problem tha t exists, I think, in every ele ction wh ere a nu mb er of the people tha t are hir ed are hir ed basically off the street.

As wel l, I bel ieve the system tha t was set up internally was to try and deal with certai n seg men ts of the bills tha t were th ere and if th ere were problems the whole batch of them were being held. Tho se kind s of reviews, I agr ee, should be under ­ taken to see whe ther or not the possibili ty of even havi ng someone full -ti me assigned from a department in terms of accounting perso ns to oversee tha t the payment s are made as the y come in, rather than wait until ther e is a whole host of payme nts come in and then the payouts made on tha t basis.

But, ther e is no doub t about it, tha t there were problems for several months in terms of payments not being made. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Ch airman, I believe tha t maybe ther e was too conscious an effort being made to make sur e tha t all the che cks and balan ces were in pla ce. I belie ve the same acc ou nts were ch ecked and dou ble­ che cked, not once, twice, but probably th ree and four times by various steps before it got to the fina l pay­ ment.

I would hope tha t th ere is room to remove some of th ose, wha t I call repetitive steps, and expedite the payment of the accou nts so tha t the citizenr y doesn't suffer. MR. CHAIRMA N: The Honour able Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I just won dered if the Min ister might confi rm to the Ho use tha t those receiving late pay­ ments, the y were equally distribut ed between Con­ servative workers and NOP workers. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honour able Mi nister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, to be qui te specific, I don' t kn ow; I can not answer that qu estion.

I think the que stion should be raised with his colleague, the Memb er for St. No rbert, who was the Minis ter respon­ sible, I belie ve, for bringing in the legislation and it was your colle ague s who had the auth ority for hir ing in terms of the staff for the elec tion. I ho nestly can't give him tha t answer, but I bel ieve in terms of the problems of nonp ayment, the y were in many ridi ngs. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: Ju st a couple of comme nts tha t I think would not be inap propr iate at thi s time.

I have par tici pated as a candi date in six or seven gener al elec tions and one by- elec tion. My com ment, which I have voiced to other mem bers of the Legisla tur e since the elec tion of last November, even though we were not terri bly pleased with the outcome of that elec tion, I mu st say tha t in my experience th ere cert ainly came to my attention, I can't speak for other mem bers of the Hous e, as few complai nts about the conduc t of the election as any election tha t I have every been involved in.

I think tha t is a tri bute to the Ch ief Elec­ toral Officer, to his staff, to the returning officers whom the Ch ief Ele ctoral Officer and his staff had an oppor tuni ty to train before the election and so on.

I merely wish to put on the record tha t in every election you have complai nts and some of them serious and legitima te complai nts about people being left off the enu merator's list and so on, but I mus t say tha t at least from my vantage point , tha t kind of mechanical complaint was at a minimum this time and I merely want to put on the record the fact tha t the Chi ef Ele ctoral Officer, his staff, the returning officers deserve a nod of congr atu lations for the good work tha t the y did. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Memb er for Spri ng field. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr .

Chairman, I wanted to rise to concur in the remarks of the Leader of the Op position, no t because I share his lengthy experience in being a candi date in elections; in some ways, I am very gl ad I don' t share that experience, but I certainly was im pressed with the admin istration of the election and having some experience in that field, I can say tha t no t only was the election very well ad minis tered, and gr eat credit should go to a relatively new staff without a gr eat deal of experien ce, who performed very well un der very diffi cult circu mstances consider ing the relative newness of the statute and the man y change s that were made in the statute.

I think also a su bstantial amount of cred it has to go to the former Attorney -Gener al, the Memb er for St. No rbert, who pilo ted thr ou gh one of the most tho ­ ro ug hgoing ch an ges in an Ele ction Act in the history of this provi nc e and mo der nized and upda ted a lo t of the thing s which had been creating the problems tha t the Leader of the Op position refers to. So a su bstan­ tial amount of the credit for the fact that the com­ plaint s were not the re lies with the former Attorn ey­ Gener al and the leg islation he pilo ted thr ough the Ho use.

Tha t does not in any way dimini sh the well earned compli ments tha t the Leader of the Op position has made to the Chi ef Ele ctoral Officer and his staff because they, too, did an excellent job. 2819 On the other que stion, Mr . Chairman, and I mus t say in most in th ose amend ments on tha t Ele ction Act were not onl y sup ported by this side of the Hous e, but this side of the Ho use made a contribution when they were in Opp osition to the improving of tha t Act and making it the vastly im proved vehicle that it is. With regard to the payment problem, Mr .

Chairman, I have to tel l the Memb er for Virden and the Member of the Board of In ternal Economy, who is deal ing with the se Estimates tonight, tha t I solved the problem tha t the Memb er for Virden had very sim ply, by tel ling him tha t the admin istration of the elections had been in the hands of the previous gov ernment when I got com­ pla ints about payment. MR. CHAIR MAN: 7.( b) -pass - the Honour able Min ­ ister of Muni cipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr . Ch airman, I just wanted to point out tha t we should be paying mor e attention in regard

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 to pol ling stations dur ing the elec tions - any elections. I'm not sur e whether - that's been qui te some time tha t we haven't paid too close attention to wher e we estab­ lish our polling pla ces and I noticed that in the Ste. Rose Constituency in the last elec tions that many of the polling stations were in buildi ngs that had steps. There were very very few pol ling stations that had a street entrance and this created a gr eat deal of diffi­ culty for people who are handic ap ped; people who went down to vote on wheelchair s.

Pla ce after pla ce, after pol ling pla ce, we found that older people had to climb two or thr ee steps to get into a pol ling booth and I'm not lev elling that as a criticism. I'm just saying tha t we should, when we do have elec­ tions, ensur e tha t the re turning officers should be instruc ted, if at all possible, to try and find polling places that have street access. Whil e, in fact, there were provisions, Mr.

Ch airman, whereby the returning officer, the deputy returning officer could take the ballot box out on the street to assist someone to vote on the street, but you kn ow, the que stion is, how about the handic apped person who come s to a polling station on a wheelchair and it happened, Mr . Ch aiFman; it happene d in Neepawa. I'm not sur e whe ther it happened in any other pla ce, but we do know tha t in one instance the person in a wheelchair got up to the polling station and waited for some time and finally wheeled away.

As a result of this, he lost his right to vote because he could no t get into the pol ling pla ce. Had it been a street entrance, th ere wou ld have been no problem. I'm just not level­ ling any criti cism. I'm just sayi ng tha t in futur e elec­ tions tha t the returning officer shoul d be advised by the chi ef returnin g officer, if at all possi ble, to try and have pol ling places that have street access. MR. CHAIRMA N: 7.(b) - the Honour able Memb er for Virden. MR. G.

GR AHAM: Ju st in case th ere could be an impression left tha t I was being critical of the oper a­ tion of the Chi ef Electoral Officer, I assure you I was not being critic al of the activities of the Ch ief Electoral Officer in the conduc t of the election at all.

All I was asking was tha t perh aps in the ligh t of the experience, while it's still fresh in our mind, of what some of the complai nts tha t we have had br ought to our atten tion, tha t we could look at possible ways of streamlining the payment of acco un ts after an elec­ tion so tha t the citizenr y of the provi nce doesn't have to wait too long to get their cheq ues. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Spri ngfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr .

Chairman, I'm pleased that the Honour able Member for Virden has clar ified his remarks and tha t he is now insisting tha t the criticism he was directing was not at the bur eaucr acy for the way the elec tion was admin istered and the acco un ts were hand led, but rather of the gov ernme nt tha t admin istered and was responsible for that elec tion. MR. G. GRAHAM: Mr . Ch airman, I have al ways had a fa ir degree of respect for the Honour able Memb er for Spr ing field, but I have to tell you tha t is rap idly dimin - ishing.

It would appear that he has difficu lty und er­ standing or maybe it's possible he does have diffi cu lty with the heari ng in the pla ce. I would assume tha t it was probably difficu lty with the heari ng. No, Mr . Chairman, I am tal king very specifically about the bu reaucr acy that we apparently seem to have in place, whereby the accou nts that have been appr oved for pa yment by the Chi ef Ele ctoral Officer are then fur ther scru tini zed, ch ecked and double ­ checked; the y are then appro ved for payment and then fur ther che cked before the cheque goes out.

I think th ere is far too much bur eauc racy between the Ch ief Electoral Officer's okay and the time tha t the cheque gets to the person who is autho rized to be the recipient. MR. CHAIR MAN: 7.(b ) -pass. Tha t comp letes the items under Resolution No. 4. Th erefore

Be It Resolved tha t the re be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $200, 10 0 for Legis­ lation, Electoral Office, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. That comple tes the Esti ma tes for Legislation. Comm ittee rise. 2820