Volume XL I Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Numbe r 23 30 Ap ril 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader. the Opposition House MR. SIMMS: I wonder if before Statements By Ministers I might be permitted to offer condolences and ask that condolences be sent on behalf of the Members of the House of Assembly to Angus Bennett and I believe Trevor, who is the son of nurse Myra Bennett. There was a fairly good

article in the local paper the weekend that described her background. She was known, and we have all heard of her I suppose, as Newfoundland's Florence Nightingale. She passed away on Thursday past at the age of 100, as I understand it. I did not know her personally, but I often heard of her - she came to Newfoundland from London, England, in 1890, and she was for many years the only source of medical aid in the Daniel' s Harbour area on the Northern Peninsula. One of the people whom she delivered said that she delivered all the babies and she pulled all the teeth up in that particular area for many, many years.

She also had a membership in the Order of the British Empire, which was afforded her in 1936. She also had a membership in the Order of Canada in 1974. So it might be appropriate and I am sure the Kember opposite would like to support it. KR. FUREY: Kr. Speaker. Ll April 30, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side would like to align ourselves with the han. Member's fine comments about an outstanding Newfoundlander. Everything the Opposition House Leader says is correct. This lady was an outstanding Newfoundlander and Labradorian.

She gave selflessly for many, many years along the Northern Peninsula when services, particularly medical services, were not available through some very difficult periods. And we on our side would like to align ourselves and ask that the House send condolences, particularly to Mr. Angus Bennett who survives the late Mrs. Bennett and the family, particularly Trevor Bennett who is a former Member of the House of Assembly who represented the District of st. Barbe for a number of years in this Assembly.

We thank the han. the Opposition House Leader for bringing this to the House's attention, and we certainly concur, Your Honour. Oral Questions KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Kember for Humber East. KS VERGE: Kr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. It is about his Budget, which the Provincial School Trustees Association called, 'the most regressive Budget for education in living memory.' Kr. Speaker, the Minister's Budget No. 23 Rl

eliminated funding for all the hospital schools in the Pt"ovince, outside St. John's. Last Tuesday, the Department of Education gave layoff notices to the teachet"s at the Central Newfoundland Hospital in Gt"and Falls, Westet"n Memot"ial Regional Hospital in Cot"net" Bt"ook, and the Cut"tis Hospital in st. Anthony. My question for the Minister is will he conf inn that this budget cut was a budget measure designed to reduce spending and not an education decision, designed to impt"ove the quality of education for children who are hospitalized? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MR.

SIMMS: The question was for the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker. DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in the process of preparing for the Budget, we examined the operation of hospital schools, as we reviewed many other issues. We did it as a regular part of the budgetary process, but we also did it because there were requests for new services of this type in other hospitals throughout the Province. We found there were hospital schools in four hospitals.

After the review, we concluded that because of the very short length of stay in three of the hospitals, and because of the requests for extending that service to many other hospitals in the Province, we would terminate · the three and retain the Janeway Hospital School because of the long-term nature of many of the patients there. Mr. Speaker, we are in the process of developing alternate instruction for students who must stay for long periods in these L2 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI three and other hospitals throughout the Province . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Humbet" East. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Education had consulted people at Western Memorial Regional Hospital, he would have learned that during 1989 one of the two teachers employed by his department there taught children hospitalized fot" five days and more, and additionally taught some 200 children hospitalized for shorter stays. Kr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Education is why did he and his officials not consult his Department teachers employed at the hospitals in Grand Falls, Corner Brook and St. Anthony? Why did they not consult the Newfoundland Teachers' Association?

Why did they not consult the administrators of the three hospitals affected, in arriving at that budget decision? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, we did have a lot of data concerning that. In fact, one of the first things I saw when I arrived in the Ministry last year was a proposal from former years that these schools be terminated. So we had a lot of data to terminate them. We did review all the schools, and we found out that many of them were very short term. Now, let me tell the bon. Member the good news.

The good news is we have alternative program for students who stay for long periods Ro. 23 R2

of time. We have a home tutoring program for children who are unable to attend school for extended periods. We have up to, I think, $150 a month to help students who stay at home for long per-iods and who need instruction, and who are able to take advantage of instruction. Secondly, Mr. Speaker-, we are going to work with school boards to ensure that no student is disadvantaged as a r-esult of this. Let me tell the han.

Member that I have talked with, and heard from students - I have heard from students, I have not talked with them - I have talked with persons involved in the hospital schools and I have heard from students who are in these schools, and after a conversation of this nature, one person in the media said, Well, after hearing both sides of it, this is a very reasonable position this Government is taking. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I reiterate that the Minister and his staff should consult the teachers in the hospital schools, the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and the administrators of· the hospitals affected. Will the Minister now confirm that the Department of Education analysis of the Home Tutor Program has concluded that that program is seriously flawed and it is quite inappropriate to address the needs of children in hospitals? Will the Minister confirm that the pay scale is ridiciously low?

Will the Minister confirm that the Department has, in the past, had great difficulty engaging teachers L3 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI for the Home Tutor Pr-ogam? Will the Minister confirm that this is a ad hoc approach? And, will the Minister confirm that the Department does not even entertain applications for home tutors until children have been out of school for two weeks, and typically, once an application is received, the administrative machinery takes another week to process an application? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I have not heard about the serious flaws, but I am not surprised. Since I became Minister, I have found a number of programs of the former Administration seriously flawed. I am not surprised that it is seriously flawed. I can assure you that we will examine the Program and we are going to make sure that no student is seriously disadvantaged as a result of this action. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HEARIJ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the han. the Minister of Finance.

In his Budget, this year, the allocation of money for school boards for transportation has not increased over last year to any degree, and the boards are concerned there will be a serious shortfall. Will the Minister assure us that if there is a shortfall, the boards will not be the ones left picking it up? No. 23 R3

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I am not too sure what he said. He asked if the school boards were r-unning out of transportation money would we supplement them, or would we put money back into the Budget, or increase the amount of money in the Budget? Mr. Speaker, the transportation budget for school boards is fixed now, as I understand it, or it will be when we pass it through the House, and they will have to live within that budget. What we have to realize, Mr.

Speaker, is that this Provinces does not have money to slash around on every possible thing; we have to be careful with our money. If we can find better ways of doing things, then we will have to find better ways of doing things. It is by no means clear that the way school transportation has been handled in the past is the best way, so I think we are hoping that boards will look at their transportation budgets and come up with an appropriate way of handling the transportation needs in their districts.

The thing is, all the problems in education or any other thing are not necessarily solved by slashing out more money. All that does is prevent money from going where it is needed. MR. SPEAXER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HEARU: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the Estimates discussions a few nights ago, the Minister of L4 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Education stated that one of the things they would be looking at would be making the transportation system more efficient, perhaps by getting larger firms which would be more efficient and, consequently, the overall tenders would be smaller, thus saving money in the transportation sector. Would the Minister of Finance tell us if this is one of the things they are looking at? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN: Mr . Speaker, I must be very frank with the hon.

Member and tell him that we are reviewing a lot of things in education this year. We want to ensure that we are getting the best possible return for every dollar we are spending in this Province. I can assure the hon. Member that we are looking at transportation, we are looking at the overlapping of services. I had a person in my office this morning who indicated that in his part of the Province there were buses going in opposite directions carrying students, and perhaps the whole thing cou ld be co -ordinated; no intention, of course, to put people out of business in this Province.

What we want is the most efficient use of the limited dollars we have for education in this Province, to provide the best possible education for every student. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - the Capes. MR. HEARIJ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can easily understand why the Minister of Education got up to defend the Minister of Finance Ho. 23 R4

.... after his answer to the first question. I will ask the Minister of Education, following his comments the other night about larger operators, is it factual that the Department of Finance, in conjunction with the Department of Education, are looking at encouraging large firms like Day and Ross, from outside the Province, to come in and take over the school bus transport operations, thus depriving a number of small operators across this Province of the livelihood they have been making over the years? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN: The answer is no, Mr. Speaker.

We are trying to consolidate the whole school bus system to provide the best system possible at the cheapest cost. That is our intention and we are looking at a variety of options for doing that this year, as we are looking at interdenominational sharing, we are looking at a number of other issues to ensure that we get the best value for the limited dollars we have. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR • SPEAKER: The bon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Premier.

Several months ago, the Government announced its decision to build a campus in Central Newfoundland, as he is aware, to LS April 30, 1990 Vol XLI accommodate first and second year university programs which are presently being offered in some parts of the area, and submissions on locations were requested several months ago. In addition to that, of course, a small Cabinet Commit tee heard verbal presentations weeks ago now, the Budget was presented, a lot of people were expecting an announcement, and no announcement. Then it was announced that the decision had been delayed, in fact, to the end of April.

My question to the Premier is, since today is the end of April, can we expect an announcement today, or will there be another delay? If so, why the delay? What is the reason? What is the new target date, or is it to be an indefinite delay? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I want to make a kind of a concession, that on this issue the Government is not as efficient as it hoped it would be. We had hoped, I think in the statement in February - MR. MATTHEWS: You are yourself. not DR.

WARREN: very efficient When the Premier read the statement last year, the Premier indicated that February, I think, was the deadline. We found, in February, that we had so much data, so many excellent proposals we needed more time. Perhaps I was incorrect in suggesting we might be ready in a month or so - I think I said a month or so. All HOil. KEMBER: That was in February. No. 23 RS

DR. WARREN: In February, yes. Well, it is taking a little longer. There is no rush on this, Mr. Speaker. We want to make the right decision, and we are going to make the right decision. I will not indicate when that decision will be announced, but we hope it is in the not too distant future. MR . DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

The Minister will recall in the examination of her Estimates I questioned her on labour legislation and when we might expect to see some of that long-awaited legislation. I questioned the Minister on pay equity in the public service, and when we might expect to see a bill on that. Quoting from the Minister's remarks she said, 'It could be three or even four years before we see that legislation. ' Now, I want to ask the Minister why that would take so long and if the labour movement generally is aware of that time frame? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

MS COWAIJ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The gentleman across the way, my hon. critic, knows that was a comment made in jest by a number of us to him at the end of the meeting. I said the plans were L6 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI not undeLWay immediately. We certainly hope to be addressing the matter with more speed than the past Government, however, it was not in the works for this particular session of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Just to correct the Minister, that was not said at the end of the meeting, it is on the record as being part of the meeting.

But, anyway, I will not pursue that, Mr. Speaker. We are given to understand that all the details for pay equity have been worked out and negotiated and agreed upon. This was all done, I believe, at the Treasury Board level, even before the present Administration took office. Would the Minister explain, then, at what stage of development the legislation is? Of course, if the Minister cannot answer it, then maybe th _e President of Treasury Board would . Would the Minister explain what stage of development that particular bill happens to be in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR.

BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure I understand the question. It seems to me that there are two or three things getting mixed up here. In his

preamble, the Member mentioned the general legislation in terms of labour relations in the Province. In terms of pay equity, as the Member knows, this was started quite sometime ago, before we took Ro. 23 R6

office. In the last yea~. the meetings that involve both T~easury Board officials and union ~ep~esentatives, Government and Union have been working ve~y steadily on the pay equity in pa~t of the public servic -e. It is ve~y. ve~y complex, and involves a complete examination of all the classifications and all this kind of thing. It is a slow p~ocess, and ft was recognized f~om day one that it would be a slow process. The work is being done by both Government officials and the Union reps.

Everybody involved with that process, from everything I can gather and from the frequent newsletters these people out out, little communiques they put out, everything is progressing extremely well and as soon as they have finished their examination of all the classification levels and so on, then pay equity will be introduced into the public service. We have in the Budget this year, I believe somewhere between $600 million and $700 million - $600 million to account for pay equity. What I am saying to the hon.

Kember is this, that the process that is in place, it is being worked on by both management and union, both are satisfied with the progress which has been made abd, as soon as they have everything put together, then it will be done. MR. DOYLB: Legislation will be introduced? MR. BAKER: We cannot come and legislate and do this on our own without the proper consultative process i I am sure the Kember would not suggest we do so. And as soon as that process is finished, if L7 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI legislation is necessa~y it will be int~oduced. MS VERGE: You do not know yet? MR.

BAKER: Well, maybe the Membe~ for Humber East would like to make all the decisions herself and not let the union and management people wo~k this thing out . They are working it out, Mr.Speaker, and we will have pay equity in the public service in the very near future. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Kember for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Just so I correctly understand and I will not misunderstand the hon. President of Treasury Board, is he saying that legislation will definitely be introduced in due course, after all consultation has taken place between the union and Treasury Board?

Is he saying legislation will definitely be introduced? Have I misunderstood him? I thought he was saying that quite possibly it might be introduced, but maybe it will not be. MR. SIMMS: If it is necessary, he said. MR. DOYLE: If it is necessary, you said. Well, it was promised by the Premier in this brochure. He said pay equity legislation would be introduced in the public service, so I am asking him if it will or if it will not be? MR. SPEAICER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAXER : No. 23 R7

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What I am wondering about here is if there is some little game being played. I will say to the Member again that pay equity will be introduced in the public service of this Province. When the details are worked out and the complete examination of the classification system is done, pay equity will be introduced. I do not want to close any doors or talk about definite paths until the consultative process is over; I do not want to usurp the work of that Committee.

I do not know if the Member is talking about pay equity only in the public service, whether he is talking about the rest of the Province, or whatever. In the public service it will be introduced, there is no doubt about it. MR. DOYLE: Will there be legislation? MR. BAKER: It will be introduced as soon as the work of that Cornmitee is finished. And if it requires legislation, the appropriate legislation will be put to the House. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Kember for Grand Bank. KR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Fisheries.

I am wondering if he is able to inform the House if he has looked into reports of the last three or four days, corning from Nova Scotia, that there is a deal in the works that ties the Burgeo operation, the Burgeo plant, to a sale of the Canso plant? Has the Minister investigated this particular L8 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI report coming from Nova and can he inform the what the details investigation might be? MR. SPEAKER: Scotia, House of of his The han. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have, and we cannot find any foundation for that rumour. My officials talked to Mr.

Murray Collican, who is Vice-President, I guess, of NatSea, and he could shed no light on it, so I assume it was only a rumour. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. KR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for his answer. I just asked the question because there was some concern expressed publicly by the Union Local Chairman in Burgeo over the last number of days. I wonder if the Minister of Fisheries, on a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, could inform the House what is happening to the NatSea proposal for the shrimp operation at the Southside plant?

Is that still in the works, and can we expect things to fall into place there over the next few months? KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. KR. W. CARTER: Kr. Speaker, I have no reason to think otherwise. They did tell us some time ago what their plans were. They have not said anything since then to indicate there has been a change, so I am assuming that everything is going along as Jlo. 23 R8

.!!J planned . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MA TT HEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a further supplementary to the Minister. I heard a report over the last couple of days which tells me that NatSea is tying up the Cape Verde, or has tied it up in the last two weeks, that most of the crew members have been let go and National Seal is transferring that particular vessel to Nova Scotia. I am wondering if the Minister knows that, or is aware of it, because that sort of flies in the face of what we have heard about St.

John's being a trawler port, an unloading facility for the fish caught north to be unloaded here and then trucked to Arnold's Cove. I am wondering if the Minister is aware of that, because that is not only going to be bad news for st. John's, it could also be bad news for Arnold's Cove. Is the Minister aware of this? If so, could he inform the House again of what his findings have been? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that, but I give an undertaking now that I will have it looked into and if I have something to · report back, I shall do so tomorrow.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you. MR. WARREll: Mr. Speaker. L9 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Minister responsible for Wildlife, I would like to direct my question to the Pt"emier. Mr. Speaker, I past weekend responsible for there would be big game this Premier advise decided there hunt this year? MR. SPEAKER: think during the the Minister Wildlife indicated a Sunday hunt for year. Would the if his Cabinet has will be a Sunday The han. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I heard what the Minister said at the time, and he said nothing at all like what the han. Member just represented. My recollection is that he said the Government had received a number of representations to consider two or three possible alternatives, one of which is they could possibly consider Sunday hunting, another of which was no, they could prohibit hunting on one day a week, Sunday, another was a possible combination of it, and that in due course the whole matter would be considered. For the hon.

Member to now represent it as a statement that the Minister said there would be Sunday hunting is totally inappropriate. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Kember for Torngat Mountains. KR. WARREll': Thank you, Kr. Speaker. No. 23 R9

In view of the fact that thousands of big game hunters in the Province during the next few days, if this Government will follow the practice of previous years, will be advised as to whether they were successful for a fall hunt or not, and

whereas many hunters are concerned about whether there will be Sunday hunting allowed, and

whereas last year's guide had in Sunday hunting as being allowed and, I understand, this year's guide does not have that quotation in there, would the Premier advise whether there will be a Sunday hunt or not? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I can only go from my observation. I would have to check back to the record. But my recollection is that we have not had Sunday hunting in this Province for at least fifty years. I do not think it is necessary to make a sudden decision now, before Kay. In due course the Government will consider all aspects of it and will make a decision on it.

I understood that was what the Minister said the other day. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, we just wanted to try and correct the Premier. In fact, there was Sunday hunting in the Province a couple years ago, but it was not by law; after the court ruling or appeal, you will recall. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, it has nothing to do LlO April 30, 1990 Vol XLI with my question. T asked the Premier a question earlier which he deferred to the Minister of Education.

I would like to ask him another one, and I hope he will take the time to answer it himself. Back on December 18, nearly five months ago, the Premier at that time, in announcing a decision of Abitibi-Price to close down its number 6 paper machine, will recall, in fact, part of his statement talked about the company's view that changes they were making at that time would result in a more competitive and efficient enterprise.

He also said, 'As a further demonstration of this commitment, the company has advised' - advised him, I presume - 'that it was actively considering the development of a new hydro power project to increase the generating capacity at Grand Falls. Since that occurred five months ago, can the Premier tell us where that matter stands now? Will the project get off the ground this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the matter is under active consideration at this moment. Company officials have met with the Minister of Engery, they have met with Minister of Development.

It is expected they should be in a position to make a final determination on the issue within about thirty days. That is the best I can say at the moment. KS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAICER: The hon. the Kember for Humber No. 23 RlO

East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I would like the Minister to tell the House when he will release to the House and to the Public of the Province the interim and final reports of the Arts Policy Committee, chaired by Dr. Patrick O'Flaherty. I understand the Committee gave him the final report a month ago today, on March 31. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received the final report, and there was an interim report prior to that from Dr. O'Flaherty's Committee.

Both reports are under active consideration now by my officials and myself. We will then proceed with recommendations to the Government. In due course, Mr. Speaker, we will be releasing the reports to the public and to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I would like the Minister to explain how he can justify withholding these critical reports from the House and the public for more than a month.

Also, I would like to ask him when his Department will proceed with filling the vacant position of Director of CUltural Affairs, how the Government will recruit applicants for the position, and how the Government will select a Lll April 30, 1990 Vol XLI person to fill this vital position? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, we delayed the appointment of a Director of Cultural Affairs at the request of DL"". 0' Flaherty and his Committee.

They asked us to do that because they wanted to have input into the cL""iteria and the mandate of that particulaL"" person. So, at his request, the Committee's request, we delayed the appointment. But now that we have the report, it is final, we have the opportunity to examine their recommendations, and when we are ready as a Government to make a decision and proceed with the appointment of that particular person as well as implement, I would hope, some of the recommendations within the report, we will pL""oceed with both the appointment and, I would think, implementation of many of the L""ecommendations. MR.

DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Kember for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. The Minister is aware that the Supreme Court of Newfoundland recently ruled that both the union and the non-union shop may operate simultaneously. That is a practice, as the Minister is aware, that is known as double-breasting. That ruling, I believe, is to be challenged in the Supreme Court of Canada by the Trade Union Movement and, of course, it could be many years llo. 23 Rll

before that particular case gets to the Supreme Court of Canada. I would like to know fLom the Minister, what happen~ in the interim? What does the Minister see as the resolution of the problem, let the case go to the Supreme Court of Canada which could take a number of years? Could she indicate what a possible solution might be for the interim? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The matter is being actively pursued by my Department at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Well, that is fine, Mr.

Speaker, but it does not answer the question. The Minister indicated in the Evening Telegram, I believe it was in March, that she had met with the Building Trades Council at that time and said that a progress report on legislation on double-breasting would be forthcoming. Of course, we know legislation has been promised on it. Then she said there would be hearings on the matter, and then she indicated, at the Estimates Commit tee, there would be no hearings. Would the Minister clear up the matter for the Trade Union Movement? Will there be legislation or not? Will there be hearings or not?

And if there is to be legislation, when is it coming? MR. SPEAXER: The bon. the Minister of Ll2 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I have ~o rn e difficulty with this little gam e that keeps being played by my partlculac- critic . He keeps changing his vocabulary all the tlme and then trying to tC'ip me up with it herP. in the House. He talks about inquiries, then he talks about hearings, and I really do not know what he is talking about. To me, they are different things.

The last ti me he was shouting at me because I was going to have an inquiry or something, and now, today, it is that I am not going to have hearings. I do not know really what he is up to. If he wonders if I am going to consult with the affected groups, of course I am. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired. On behalf of hon. Members I would like to welcome thirty grade VI students from Pius X Junior High School here in St. John's accompanied by their teacher, Ms Margaret Best. SOME HOH. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Presenting Reports by Standin& and Special Committees DR. GIBBOHS: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBOHS: No. 23 Rl2

:1 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the annual report of Mineral Licences and Mining Leases issued for the period April 1st, 1989 to March 31st, 1990. These licences and leases were issued by the Department of Mines and Energy under the Mineral Act, 1976. I note, Mr. Speaker, that during the past fiscal year, 16,641 new claims were staked and 292 new licences were issued, in total there were 59,820 claims in good standing as of March 31st past. Notices of Motion DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978, with respect to Offshore Petroleum Development". Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act Respecting A Reduction In The Newfoundland Offshore Area Corporate Income Tax". Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Conunittee of the Whole on Supply to consider Certain Resolutions for the granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Kines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: Ll3 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Canada Newfoundland Atlantic Accoc-d Implementation Act and the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of Treasury Board. MR . BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act to Repeal The Parliamentary Commissioner Ombudsman Act." AN HON. MEMBER: Shame! Shame! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: You better tell the Minister of Justice. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader. MR. SIMMS: 0 0 0 the Opposition House Just on a point of something, a point of order, I guess. I wonder if the Clerks could tell us at the Table or maybe the Government House Leader remembers it should have been under No. 23 Rl3

Reports of Standing and Special Commit tees. When we extended the working tlme of the Committee on the Rules and Procedures, Standing Orders, did we not extend that Committee's work until the end of April? Do you recall? Because if so today is the end of April and I do not believe we have a report ready. So we would require some kind of a reference or extension. The Clerk is quickly looking. Maybe she can check it and go on with other matters and come back to it. AN HON'. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS: Well we should deal with it, if it is necessary. MR. SPEAKER: Just to speak to the point of order.

It is not a point of order, it is a point of clarification and we will leave it at that. We could check it out. Petitions MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member · for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREll: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a number · of petitions that I will continue to present until this Government reacts in a positive manner to the request of those petitions. Mr. Speaker, this petition to the bon.

House of Assembly is signed by the resi4ents in Main, 'We are concerned that the Government of LU April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Newfoundland and Labrador has reduced the Labrador air subsidy and has therefore unacceptably increased the burden of transportation cost on the residents of this Province who live in Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity this past weekend to visit Labrador - a number of communities in Labrador. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, in all fairness to the Government that was elected just over a year ago, that one of the biggest blunders that has ever been made by a Government is this callous attitude of cutting out the Labrador air subsidy program and reducing by $100,000 the Budget for sports and cultural groups. And I would say, Mr. Speaker, and I can see the nodding and the interest of some of my colleagues opposite that they are also concerned about why this Government has, all of a sudden, Mr. Speaker, decided to pick on the people in Labrador. Now, Mr.

Speaker, today I received a letter, I will table the letter, a copy of a letter and it was addressed to the hon. Minister responsible for Recreation and Youth and I will table the letter, I will read it, but I will table it because I am sure it will be three weeks time by the time the Minister responsible will have a chance to see his mail. 'Dear Mr. Gullage: I was very much taken aback by the cuts to the Labrador Subsidy for Sports Teams and the 20 per cent subsidy for travellers going from Labrador to the Island. It will serve to downgrade the calibre of athletics in this part of the Province.

The teams from Labrador have proven to be competitive in No. 23 RU

p~ovincial tou~naments o~ p~ovincial meets. The oppo~tuni ty to move on to pr-ovincial o~ nationals have always been a motivating facto~. However we will not be able to afford to attend such meets o~ tournaments now that travelling funding is cut. It costs teams from Labrado~ the air fa~e plus the ground t~ansportation." I think this is one thing the Government opposite does not realize, that besides the air fare, the~e is still the ground transpo~tation that the rest of the people in the Province have to pay fo~. so this is an ext~a burden. "Teams f~om the Island a~e spa~ed the high cost of ai~ travel.

To get f~om Makkovik to Goose Bay, it costs $140 ~eturn per passenger and then, from Goose Bay to St. John's, it is $590. In the interest of maintaining a competitive level of sports in Labrador, I strongly urge you to work towards reinstating the travel subsidies." Mr. Speaker, I have tabled that letter. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that this Government opposite has two Members from Labrador, and I heard one peep on one short newscast from the bon. the Member for Eagle River that he was disgusted with the cuts this Government has made, one little peep, and he has not said one word since.

He said that the day it was announced but since then, he has not said one word. MR. PARSOilS: He was told not to say anything. MR.. WARREll: He has been told that if he wanted to get into Cabinet he could not rock the boat. And the Minister, the bon. the Kember for llaskaupi , LlS April 30, 1990 Vol XLI is so inte~ested, Mr. Speaker, that Sunday night, two weeks ago, the Libe~al Association in Naskaupi had a meeting to look for a new candidate. Now that shows the level of cespect the people have foe the Member fo~ Naskaupi. It is because he is not doing anything, Mr. Speaker.

Before I close -· I have only one minute - I want to say one mo~e thing, and I am conce~ned about this: There is a travel package for Government employees in Labrador that they have been voting on for the last numbe~ of days. Tomorrow night, they will have finished voting on this travel package, a good travel package; but I hope this Government will not use that travel package as a scapegoat for a program that has been in place for the last twenty~two years. That is what the Minister responsible for Treasury Board is aiming at.

He is planning to use this travel package as a way of getting out of the air subsidy program. In closing, I say to the Minister, remember, there are more people in Labrador than those who work for Government. I refer this petition, Mr. Speaker, as I will many other petitions, to the Department to which it relates, and hopefully, the Government will come to its senses, will wake up and remember that Labrador is part of this great Province of ours and if you do not do something about it, Labrador will not be a part of this Province very much longer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HOil. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAICER: The bon. the Kember for Menihek. llo. 23 RlS

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, I am rather disappointed that some of the Members on the other side of the House would not speak to such an important issue to the people of Labrador, especially people on the other side who have private members there with a particular knowledge of Labrador and a particular knowledge of this program and how important it was to the residents of all of Labrador, not just the people in Torngat Mountains District or, indeed, the people in Makkovik, specifically, where the hon. the Member for Torngat received a petition and very capably presented it to this han. House.

It disappoints me, as I suggested, that other people on the other side of the House would not speak to this petition. In fact, it shows to me that they lack a true understanding of what is occurring in Labrador and thus they cannot deliver the services to Labrador. That is a very big disappointment not just to me, but to all the residents. AN HOM. MEMBER: What about the hon. Member for Eagle River. MR. A.

SNOW: I am sure the hon. the Member for Eagle River will be able to speak up in months to come about particular issues in Western Labrador and other Members, Members in Cabinet after a period of time will be permitted to speak up and articulate their personal views of some of the problems of residents of all of Labrador. And in this particular case I just want to address the problems associated with the travel subsidy program that had been initiated twenty-four years ago by a Ll6 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI previous Liberal Administration, not this regressive conservative Administration that we have here today.

They were an Administration who had recognized the needs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Thank you for your protection. It is unfortunate that the people in Cabinet do not understand the problems associated with this particular program that had been delivered because if they did understand they would have indeed come in with a subsidy program that would be more benefical to the people of Western Labrador.

In this particular Budget they took $3 million per year extra from the people of Western Labrador through their payroll tax; $3 million per year and cut out a $600,000 amount from their Budget, an expenditure that goes to residents of all of Labrador for a program to enable people to have more feeling of togetherness, if you want to call it that, to be able to travel to and from the Island portion of the Province in sporting, cultural events, and also for other reasons that people would want to travel to this Island portion of the Provine~.

It is unfortunate that they also do not recognize that indeed the people in the Island portion of this Province derive a great terrific benefit from the people travelling from the Labrador portion of the Province to be able to participate in particular events here on the Island. The Bo. 23 R16

local Car-ol Player-s in Wester-n Labr-ador- t!"avelled for year-s to the Island por-tion of this Province and presented drama at Dr-ama Festivals. Some of them have even left their residences in Weste!"n Labrador and come out to live tin the Island in places like Holyrood and Avond~le, and br-ought great success and p!"ide to their communities. So you can see ther-e is a benefit.

If you disregar-d the people of Labrador- and their- concer-ns and their- needs as to why ther-e should be a subsidy in place, if you do not have any concern for- their needs, as is evidenced by the reaction in your Budget where you slashed and gutted these par-ticular programs, have concern for the people in your own Districts here on the Island portion of the Province who can der-ive a fantastic benefit by having people from Labrador come out and participate in cultural events, athletic events and that type of thing.

Indeed I am sur-e you have had r-epresentation from different communities on the Island portion of the Province, because the people out there recognize it. It is unfortunate that it has not been articulated well enough to you in your Cabinet discussions in that you would see fit to cut this particular program by $500,000 or $600,000. To suggest it was done for budgetary reasons is ludicrous in the fact that you have a $10 million surplus, and you gut and slash a program that only put $600,000 back into the peoples pockets of Labrador, and driving them to other provinces. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: L17 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time is up . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. A. SNOW: If I could just have one more minute, Mr. Speaker-, to clue up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. MR. A.

SNOW: I would suggest that the Special Cabinet Committee that has been struck by the Premier comprised of five Member-s of Cabinet would hurry along and finish up their meetings, make recommendations and come in and suggest to this House, and indeed the people of Labrador and the whole Province, of a better subsidy program to be put in place for the years to come here in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, just a few comments.

Because the letter the Kember spoke about alludes to the fact that we do not have a program in place for recreation and culture, well, in fact, that program is still in place. I do not know why he would make the comment that we are no longer providing subsidies with that part of the program. I think the hon. Member will know, No. 23 R17

as was just said, we have a g~oup of Cabinet Ministe~s, a Committee st~uck, to look afte~ this whole a~ea of tcavel subsidies in Lab~adoc. I think we should await the outcome, but we should not imply in the meantime that ~ec~eation, sports, fitness, cultu~e. and that whole a~ea has been eliminated, because I stated in this House that in the interim, while the Committee was working, we would leave the prog~am in place. AN HON. MEMBER: You cancelled it already. MR. GULLAGE: It is in place, and cancelled. It is not It is still in place . MR. SPEAKER: it is not cancelled. The han. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. I will pcesent anothec petition on the same issue, Mr. Speaker, and this is from the community of Rigolet. It has the same concerns, Mr. Speaker, and the same concerns are what the Minister just said. Those concerns are that there have been events cancelled because of the Minister's statement. Over 200 people could not go to Nain for a sports meet because of the Minister's announcement a month ago.

I say to the Minister if he . is going to come into this House he had better go and tell everybody, every sports group throughout this Province, and he has the means to do it , go in to the communi ties and announce that this program will continue. Because, Mr. Speaker, the five member Committee that the Premier Ll8 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI has announced is nothing but a farce, nothing but a down~ight facce. You do not need five Cabinet Ministers to decide - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I just requi~e that the Member give us some information related to the petition.

The Member for Tocngat Mountains says it is the same thing. The Chaic would better be able to decide how the debate is pcogressing if the Chair heacd the pacticular pcayec of the petition. Would the hon. gentleman address the pcayer of the petition? It may not be a point of o~dec but the Chair would just like to hear the pcayer of the petition. MR. WARREN: It is identica l to the last one, Mr. Speaker.

" We are concerned that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has reduced the Labrador air subsidy and has thereby unacceptably increased the burden of transportation costs on the residents of the Province who live in Labrador." It is the same prayer of the petition and I say again that the Committee that the Premier set up is nothing but a downright farce. It is nothing but a delaying tactic. Mr. Speaker, you do not need five Cabinet Ministers to decide whether a program that has been in place for twenty-two years can work or not.

It has worked for twenty-two years to the satisfaction of the people in Labrador. All that is wrong, Mr. Speaker, is the Premier, because of his one-man show, is afraid to say to the people in Labrador, we will not cut out the Labrador Air Subsidy Program. I say again what I said earlier, it all boils down Ho. 23 Rl8

to what the Ministe~ ~esponsible fo~ T~easury Boa~d is up to. He believes that by satisfying the people who wo~k with Government in Lab~ado~ he will satisfy the othe~ people in Lab~ador, and I say to the Ministe~. no way, Si~. The people who need it the most are the ones that will be hu~t the most. M~. Speake~, I will continue with my petitions day afte~ day, after day. Th~ee mo~e a~~ived today and I will p~esent them until this Gove~nment comes out with an answer. Whether or not it is up to the time the House closes I will continue to present my petitions. I have them he~e on health care. I am surpdsed, Mr.

Speaker, that my hon. colleague has petitions that he will not present in this House. I believe it is incumbent on every Member who receives a petition f~om the people they represent to present that petition in this House of Assembly. That is the least thing we can do. I believe the han. Member for Eagle River should present the petitions he has received and if not, one of those days, I am going to come in with copies of those petitions and I will ask Your Honour if I can present them, because the people want their petitions to be heard in this hon. House. Mr.

Speaker, I say to my hon. colleagues opposite, do not waste any more time in deciding what needs to be done. The Premier was in the Government when the decision was made in the first place to institute the Program, so surely, goodness, let us leave the program in place so that at least there can be some relationship between the people of Labrador and the people of the Province. I say, Mr.

Speaker, that in four or L19 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI five yea~s. if this Gove~nment keeps on the path it is now on, the path it has set fo~ the people of Labrado~. there is a very short distance to the Quebec/Labrador borde~. and I am af~aid that is where they will turn. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader. the Opposition House MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, as it appears nobody from the other side is going to get up to ~espond unless they are pried up, perhaps I can say a few words which might provoke somebody on the other side into getting up.

I speak in support of the petition so ably presented by my colleague and friend, the Member for Torngat Mountains, who, as I have said on previous occasions, has shown his intensity time and time again. He represents the people of Labrador without a doubt, without question. He pursues matters, nothing gets in his way, and he is not afraid to raise matters in this Legislature on behalf of his constituents. He is frequently supported by his colleague, the Kember for Kenihek, the other Kember for Labrador.

Both of them do more on this side of the House to improve and to fight for improvements for the people of Labrador than the entire Government caucus - the entire Government caucus - which also has two Members on the Government side. KS VIRGE: From Labrador. MR. SIMMS: How, Mr. Speaker, I want to No. 23 Rl9

address this topic briefly, this topic of the cutback in the Labrador Travel Subsidy Programs. I say programs because we are referring to two programs here, as I understand it; both have been affected. One was the 20 per cent rebate program, which individuals could apply for, which was cut out or eliminated completely. Last year, as I understand it, approximately 6,000 individuals from Labrador applied for that 20 per cent rebate - 6,000 people from Labrador, Mr. Speaker, applied last year for that rebate, that 20 per cent rebate. MR. BAKER: You fellows lowered it. MR. SIMMS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, lowered it, but eliminated it. MS VERGE: we may have this crowd They like people when they are down. MR. SIMMS: The President of Treasury Board keeps shouting out we lowered it, we lowered it. You would not know but it was some kind of silly little game he is playing. The fact of the matter is, this Government has eliminated it, that is the point, and 6,000 people applied for that 20 per cent rebate, Mr. Speaker, 6,000 Labradorians, I presume, people who live in Labrador. Now, that is a significant number of people when you consider that the people of Labrado r are isolated.

That ~s just in this one travel pt"ogram I am talking about now. The people of Labrador are isolated. The Kember for Eagle River agrees 100 per cent; he agrees with everything the Kember for Torngat Mountains is saying; he agrees L20 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI with everything the Member for Menihek is saying; and he agrees with everything I am saying. The only problem is, he is not allowed to get up and say it any more, Mr. Speaker. That is the big problem. And that is very unfortunate. I always had a lot of respect for him.

I thought he had the intestinal fortitude and the courage to be able to stand in his place and speak out on behalf of his constituents. Obviously, they have gagged him - the Government have gagged him. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is just one program. The other program, of course, is the sports travel subsidy, I guess for sports groups and cultural groups. That one, which used to provide a 75 per cent subsidy to students participating in these activities, has been cut down to a 50 per cent subsidy, and adults have been cut from 50 per cent down to 25 per cent. Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it, that particular program cutback amounts to about $100,000. As I remember the announcement by the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, it was a $100,000 cutback, and I think there were 7 , 000 people or 8, 000 people included in all the groups that participated in those programs. Now, Kr.

Speaker, for a lousy $100,000 they cause all that pain, grief and sorrow, and inflict all that kind of pain, grief and sorrow on the people of Labrador who are isolated and who have a feeling of isolation, and it is just being magnified because of decisions that are very insensitive, such as these kinds of decisions, Kr. Speaker. So I say in conclusion, the Government, as I understand it, and the Premier, found the heat. The No. 23 R20

Premier was finding the heat, because we were raising it day after day in the House, the Member for Torngat Mountains and the Member for' Menihek in par'ticular, and they finally said, well, we have to get r'id of this heat somehow, so we will do what we have been doing for' the last year', we will send it off to a committee to study. But what did he do, Mr'. Speaker? What did he do? You talk about a pr'ogram here that cost in total somewhere ar'ound a half a million dollars, 400,000 and 100,000, $500,000 are cut and what did he do Mr. Speaker?

The Premier' set up a special Cabinet Task Force - I hope it has more success than the one headed by the Minister of Forestr'y, by the way - which is made up of almost one-third of the Cabinet, five Member's of the Cabinet, to address this big question of a $400,000 or a $500,000 cutback. What takes so long? That was weeks ago, before Easter. What takes so long? Can they not sit down and look at it and say, well, boys and girls, or men and women, ladies and gentlemen, we have to find this? We cannot do this, it is not fair to the people of Labrador.

We cannot isolate them any further, we have to bite the bullet, we have to give them that, we will have to reinstitute that Labrador travel program. Let us report back to the Premier so he ·can make a statement in the House and let us get out of this. They do not seem to have sense enough to deal with those kinds of questions, they do not seem to have sense enough to deal with priorities and this, Mr . Speaker, I submit to you in conclusion, is an absolute priority and we call on the Government to hurry up, get its act together, get the Cabinet back L21 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI together'.

If a third of them are dealing with it, there must be somebody intelligent enough on that Cabinet Committee of five Minister's. I am not sut'"e who is on it. The Minister' of Finance, cer'tainly, would not have any input into it at all, the Ministet'" of Recreation may have. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Gentleman's time is up. MR. SIMMS: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I hope they wake up and hurry up and respond to these concerns. Orders of the Day MR. BAKER: Motion 5, Mr. Speaker.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Mineral Holdings Impost Act." (Bill No . 27), carried. on motion, Bill No. 27 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. BAKER: Kr. Speaker, I wonder if we could do numbers seven to ten as a unit to save all the procedural time, and then do twelve to seventeen. I was thinking about separating the two groups. MR. SIMMS: You want to do them all? MR. BAlCER: Except Ho. 11. KR. SIMMS: Numbers seven to seventeen. No. 23 R21

MR . BAKER : Seven to seventeen, with the exception of number eleven. MR. SPEAKER: On motion, various Ministers introduced various Bills, as agreed to by the two House Leaders. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce the following Bills entitled: "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting The Provincial Court," (Bill No. 13)~ "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Savings Plans Act," (Bill No. 29); "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act," (Bill No. 35); "An Act Respecting Enduring Powers Of Attorney," (Bill No. 40); "An Act To Amend The Small Claims Act," (Bill No. 41), carried.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Works, Services And Transportation to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Dangerous Goods Transportation Act And The

Summary Proceedings Act," carried. (Bill No. 37) Motion, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro Act, 1975," carried. (Bill No. 31) Motion, the hon. the Minister of Municipal And Provincial Affairs to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act Respecting The Creation Of Regional Service Boards Throughout The Province, .. carried. (Bill No. 38) Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Young Persons Offences Act, .. carried. (Bill No. 36) Motion, the bon. the Minister of L22 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Employment And Labour Relations to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Labour Relations Act, 1977," carried. (Bill No. 32) On motion, Bill Nos. 13, 29, 35, 37 and 31, 38, 36, 32, 40 and 41 read a f ir:-st time, order:-ed r:-ead a second time on tomor:-r:-ow.

MR . BAKER: Order 3, Mr. Speaker:-. MR. SPE:A.KER: Concurrence Services. Motion, Social The hon. the Member for La Poile. MR. RAMSAY: Mr. the Speaker, Chairman being absent - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I rise today, with of our Committee Just before the hon. Member proceeds, I am wondering whether the House has agreed on the times that will be given in these. The hon. Leader. KR. SI!UfS: the Opposition House Mr. Speaker, I would just like to make a comment. First of all, I will make another comment, since you have given me the opportunity.

It was our understanding, of course, and from reading Hansard. that the first Concurrence Report to be called today would be the first one, which is what the Government House Leader said, which would have been the Resource Estimates Committee. Unfortunately, I had a call from the House Leader just prior to the House opening, which indicated he had changed his mind again, which is not unusual, but we are quite llo. 23 R22

p~epa~ed to debate this one. With ~espect to the speaking o~det", I think we have agt"eed to follow the p~actices and tJ:"aditions of the past in ConcuJ:"~ence Debate. The Government House Leader, I am sure, wi 11 J:"espond to it. I believe it is fifteen minutes foJ:" the Chainnan, fifteen minutes foJ:" the Vice-Chainnan, and then ten minutes for anybody who wishes to stand and debate, and there is no restJ:"iction on the number of times you can stand or anything like that; it goes on for three hours. That is the practice, I believe, and that is what I understand. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader. the Government House MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is proceed debate. a very sensible way to with this particular I know there are a lot of Members on this side who are very anxious to get involved, and I am sure Members on the other side are as well. This allows more Members of the hon. House to participate in the Concurrence Debates. I think it is an excellent procedure that we have been following over the last number of years, and it should continue.

So fifteen minutes for the introduction and response, and then, although Members do not have to use their ten minutes, a maximum of ten minutes for speeches beyond that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for LaPoile. MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now that we have clarified the L23 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI timing and the proceduJ:"e we wi 11 follow, I was saying that the Chairman of our Committee is unable to be with us today and I will, on his behalf, just give a brief report on some of the things we covered as a Committee, and some of the deliberations that were undertaken by the Commit tee.

I might note that the deliberations were quite extensive. The Committee ran often quite beyond the time required to examine the detailed Estimates and certain policy areas, I guess, the Government has planned. Being a new Government, in power for the first year, you have certain things which Members of the Opposition, having been fanner Ministers of the Crown, were very interested in, having quite a good knowledge, I might add, of a lot of the matters which the expenditure estimates addressed.

Our Committee undertook an examination of four specific departments of Government under the Social Services Estimates: the Department Department Department Department of Social Services, of Justice, of Health, and of Education. the the the Now, I might note that the Government has seen fit to increase the Budgets of all four of these Departments of Government by quite substantial numbers.

You might note that the Department of Social Services received approximately a $17 million increase, the Department of Justice received an $8 million increase this year, the Department of Health was increased by a whopping $74 million, and the Department of Education was increased by $43 million. The commitment of this Government to the Social Services sector in a No. 23 R23

time of economic uncertainty, and a time of fiscal restraint, provides a view as to where the priorities lie, the priorities of a Liberal Government. The priorities certainly are stated effectively with the Department of Social Services, a strong Liberal policy that we will help those who are unable to help themselves. Not to imply in any way that the former Government did not do this, it is just a matter of the method and the way in which we will do it. The certain elements under our examination of the Department of Social Services which I would like to note, was the creation of fifty new front line positions.

The hon. Minister is quite pleased to be able to put some advertisements in the paper. Social workers in the Province, of course, are required, the need being quite high, in consideration of some of the social problems that are inherent in the social fabric of the Province. A few other points for the Department of Social Services which I would like to mention: There is a $1 million contribution for the HUB in consideration of the, I suppose, way that provinces in general have dragged their heels in addressing the needs of individuals who have physical or even mental handicaps. This is one effort in this way.

Now this only, of course, addresses the concerns of disabled people in the St. John's area but there is a certain element of that community that effects change throughout the Island and as a community hopefully this kind of contribution will help them to grow. I want increases L24 to also mention that were made the for April 30, 1990 Vol XLI foster parent's allowances and grants by the hon. Minister and his Department.

I think this i.s cet"tainly not the end- all but it is a very definite step in the right direction in addressing the needs that have gone to a point, I suppose, of not being fully addressed when improvements can be made in support of Her Majesty • s Government who are certainly interested in seeing this kind of new policy implementation. Under the Department of Justice discussions went quite a bit more extensive than last year's budget estimates.

I guess the Vice-Chairperson who in the past was fresh out of her chair as Minister of Justice really understood a lot of the Department at that time and exactly what the initiatives were. She was a little more intense on her questioning of the Minister this year and in so doing brought to light a few different aspects of the Department that I would like to note. One was the Legal Aid difficulties with having, as she noted, the lawyers, the legal community in the Province, to address the Legal Aid question, a point which brought considerable discussion from both sides.

The Minister so eloquently putting forth his arguments for some of the questions that were put and also a general view, I guess, of the legal system in the Province. The question of the difference in fees for prosecutors versus the defence attorneys in Legal Aid matters was brought up, there being a substantial deficiency in the amount paid. Another thing I might. note was the full-time representation that is now required due to a court judgement No. 23 R24

by lawyers throughout the Province, as Legal Aid counsel - to be available by phone on weekends. There has been a system set up to fix this difficulty that the court did address, that Legal Aid lawyers in one area or another, do have to be available for consultation by anyone who is charged throughout the week and also now on weekends. That matter, along with the increase in police personnel, to assist with the difficulties caused by the overloading of the police system, given the increase in sexual abuse cases that have strained the system to a breaking point, I would suggest.

So these are some of the things that were discussed in the Justice Estimates and the Minister handled himself quite capably, I must add, and came with the smallest number of officials actually. Not to imply, I guess, that the number of officials has anything to do with the quality of a Department but he came well armed and I do not think his officials really had much of a chance as the hon. Minister was overflowing with words and knowledge at the time. It was an interesting evening, I might add. We finished up a little late, not to complain, but to say that things did not go on with stones unturned.

The Department of Education was also extensively examined and the Minister is also extremely interested in his Department. He has an extreme personal interest in education in general and the philosophy that we hope to follow here in the future as far as the way we will approach the future of education in the Province. Some things sharing mentioned were of facilities the by L25 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI denominational groups.

Something which, I must add, it was pointed out that the actual monetary value of say getting rid of the denominational school system which sometimes we hear calls for, may not be as much as a financial saving as might otherwise be implied. But over all the Minister in his initiatives on the white paper on post-secondary education were quite well received. I might note there was some representation made that the location of the Western Community College Headquarters in Stephenville was ·quite a good initiative to decentralize even more by a Member who was visiting the Committee at the time.

And the Member for Stephenville actually made that point, that the decentralization outside the two larger centres is a very worthy effort and congratulated the Minister and his Cabinet on taking that initiative. And as well the identity of the Marine Institute as a separate entity was noted and I might add that this was addressed very ably by the Minister in his response that the University will be used as a resource type thing to combine the University with the Marine Institute, without keeping its own identity would be detrimental.

But to attach the Marine Institute to the University along the granting of degrees, and also to allow for a certain factor which will allow us to gain research monies and that in the future was very important. Also in the Department of Health, if I might clue up. Improvements in Labrador were noted and were quite well received. I know the bon. Minister has made a firm commitment to Labrador, and the Labrador Coast, and as well the llo. 23 R25

improvements in cancer treatment research has hit home to me quite recently within my own family, some form of cancer struck a member of my family and I suppose it only takes a certain element of yourself being involved to realize the improvements and you then understand a little better I think. Also noted were the opening of hospital beds and the hiring of new nurses or the rehiring I suppose of permanent nursing positions, permanent nurses to positions throughout the Province. These were good initiatives which were implemented by the Department.

And I might add in total we are looking at about $143 million increase in total in the social services sector under Budget Estimates. So the commitment has been made there. The other area of commitment which our Government has made is to the area of economic development and I feel with the economic development as one Member so ably put it to pay the bills, hopefully to foster new economic development in the area, in the Province in general and specific areas of the Province, specifically, we should be able to increase the tax base that we can then utilize to improve our social services sector more. Mr.

Speaker, I thank all members of the Committee, the hon. Vice-Chairperson and other Members, Ms Duff, the Member for st. John's East - she was quite well prepared, I might add; also the Kember for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) was there occasionally and the Kember for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hearn), I recall having his input as a former Minister of Education. L26 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI With that, I will defer to the hon. Member opposite who will have, I suppose, the Opposition comment on the Budget Estimates which, I might add, were passed without amendment.

There was a bit of sweat at one point but the hon. the Member for St. George's, (Mr. Short) who also was quite an avid participant in the proceedings, one who was not too happy, at times, with the procedure we followed, but who had quite some input into it, after all. He held his own with the rest of us. AN HON. MEMBER: Held his cool. MR. RAMSAY: Held his cool. It was an enjoyable time with the Committee and I defer now to the bon. Members opposite for their comment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East. KS VERGE: Thank you, Kr. Speaker.

I thank the Kember for LaPoile for his report of the Government's version of the Social Estimates Committee deliberations this year. I regret that our Chairperson, the Kember for St. John's South (Kr. Murphy) is not here today to participate in this concurrence debate. I must say, as Vice-Chairperson, I worked well with this Chairperson. There were some logistical difficulties, mainly caused by the Meech Lake Rescission Debate going on before the Easter break, where scheduling was difficult for a while, but we Ho. 23 R26

.. did manage to co-operate in carrying out all the hearings and, as the Member for LaPoile reported, our Committee examined in considerable detail the estimates of four of the largest-spending Departments of the Provincial Government, in the order in which we dealt with them, the Estimates of the Departments of Social Services, Health, Education and Justice. I must pay tribute to my colleague on the Committee, the Member for St. John's East (Ms Duff).

Both she and I have a lively interest in all four of the Departments whose Estimates we dealt with, and perhaps, at times, some of the Ministers on the bot seat thought of us as double trouble. Our questions were wide-ranging. We dealt with philosophy and policy, as well as the specifics of the Estimates. At times, some of the Government Members tried to limit our discussions and force us to stick to particular numbers in the Budget.

We pointed out that the House Estimates Committees, since they have been operating, some ten or eleven years now, have established the practice of looking at philosophy and policy, for how else can the House evaluate the adequacy of Budget provisions unless we look at particular provisions in a broad context? We found that the first two Ministers we questioned were quite political in their approach. They are the Ministers responsible for Social services and Health. They routinely, in their answers, referred to what had gone on for the previous seventeen years.

Both those Ministers are quite backward-looking and I was relieved to hear the Minister of Social Services, in the full House L27 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI the other day, concede that it is time, at last, for him to look to the future. I welcome that pledge on his part. As I mentioned, both of these Ministers tended to be quite political in their approach.

I think the most extreme example of this occurred when I questioned the Minister of Health about the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases in the Province and he tried to correlate the incidence with which party was in power provincially, explaining that the rate of gonorrhea has gone down since the Liberals took office. Mr. Speaker, both those Ministers gave as an excuse for every deficiency and every shortcoming of their estimates - federal funding. Both those Ministers used the refrain of federal cuts. Mr. Speaker, I am not an apologist for the Federal Government.

I deal with issues as they arise on their merit. I am here to represent the people of Humber East and to further the economy and the society of Newfoundland and Labrador. And I am not going to hesitate to criticize the current Federal Government which is PC or any other Federal Government. It seems to be a fact of life that there is tension between provincial and federal governments of whatever stripe.

When I was a Kember of the PC Peckford Cabinet, we had to go head to head with Federal Governments lead by Prime Minister Trudeau and on occasion the Federal Governments lead by Prime Minister Clark and Prime Minister Mulroney. In the case of the restructuring of the deep-sea fishing industry in the early 1980s for example, we spared no effort to ensure that plans which the Federal Government, the Ho. 23 R27

deep-sea companies and thei~ majo~ c~edito~. the Bank of Nova Scotia, wanted to abandon we~e in fact kept open. M~. Speake~, to be fai~ it is necessa~y to point however, out the of the the total • ii' numbe~s on page Estimates showing that revenue f~om the Fede~al Gove~nment to the Provincial Government will be growing by $42 million this year over last year. In trying to deal with the Federal Government's deficit the Federal Government has frozen established programs of financing designed for the Province to operate post-secondary education institutions and programs and health care institutions and services.

That is regrettable. In the case of other provinces, Mr. Speaker, specifically the wealthy provinces of Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia, the Federal Government has frozen payments under the Canada Assistance Plan. Thankfully that has not been done to our Province, and we will continue to experience growth in Federal Government cost-sharing under the CAP. As well the Federal Government will continue to increase payments to our Provincial Government in the nature of equalization grants and that is quite fitting.

So overall in the coming Budget year, in this Budget year, we will expect to get $42 million more from the Federal Government than we received last year. Now, Mr. Speaker, in our examination of the Estimates of the four social Departments, we detected major problems with the provisions for the Departments of Education and Justice. L28 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI In the case of Education, M~. Speake~. this Administ~ation does not seem to have given due impo~tance to child~en's education.

This Administ~ation on taking off ice last May recombined the Ministe~ial and Departmental responsibility for child~en's education and adult education. P~ior to five years ago the Minister of Education and the Department of Education, had responsibility for- the full range of educational services and pr-ograms, education for young children to senior citizens.

At that point, about five years ago, the Peckford Administration split the responsibility, leaving the mandate for children's education with the Department of Education and assigning responsibility for post-secondary education and adult education to what was called the Department of Career Development and Advanced Studies. This Administration reverted to the earlier arrangement. Many people felt that would not disrupt the balance of Government funding for the two sectors of education. However, people are now quite worried because a pattern has emerged in the fir-st year of the Well's Administration.

Right off the bat the Minister situated himself physically in the former office of the Minister of Career Development. He chose as his Deputy Minister, the former Deputy of Career Development, a person with an excellent background in university education but with no prior involvement in the administration of children's education. The Administration for reasons impossible for me to fathom fired two exemplary members of the executive of the former Department of Education with distinguished records in administration of children's No. 23 R28

education, dep~iving the Department of thei~ leade~ship ability. The ~esult has been a bad blow to the mo~ale of the public servants of that Depa~tment. People wo~king fo~ the Depa~tment p~io~ had wonde~ful spi~it. The~e was a g~eat cama~ade~ie among the public servants of the Department of Education.

It is very upsetting for me as a fo~er Ministe~ to see so many of those very special people upset and demoralized now, and I would urge the Minister of Education, who I hope can hea~ what I am saying through the speaker system, to take steps immediately to address the interest of the staff of his Department and try to repair the damage that has been done to their morale and spirit. Getting to the numbers of the Budget, Mr.

Speaker, there is grossly inadequate provision for school board operations, so much so that the Provincial Association of School Trustees, which is the provincial umbrella group for the thirty-one school boards, have said that this is "the most regressive budget for education in living memory." The reason for that criticism of the school boards is that the Government will be giving school boards less purchasing power for their overhead requirements than they had last year.

The change in the Department of Education operating grants for school boards this year over last year is 0. 7 per cent, and that is not even including the school tax equalization component which has been frozen at $10 million. How, Mr. shocking Education, Education Speaker, that would be for any Minister of but this Minister of is one of the two L29 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Members of the Task Fo~ce on Education Financing appointed by the p~evious Administ~ation. This Minister, along with Cec Roebotham constituted the Task Force on education financing. And, Mr.

Speaker, when this Ministe~ of Education was working as a member of the task fo~ce just p~ior to last year's election, he was calling for majo~ increases in the Department of Education operating grants to school boards. The final report submitted just after the election, Mr. Speaker, presumably incorporating the thinking and the beliefs and the recommendations of the present Minister of Education called for major increases in Government grants and increases not to be phased in over time as the Minister now tries to suggest, Mr.

Speaker, but increases to be implemented right away in last year's budget in the 1989-90 budget. And what is the difference between the recommendations of that report and what this Minister has actually done, Mr. Speaker? A difference of about $5 million on school tax equalization, a difference of about $1.5 million on student transportation, a difference of about $2 million a year on debt servicing, plus $15 million which the task force report recommended be added. Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Education studied exhaustively school taxation when he worked at the University.

Some of his colleagues when they were campaigning for election last year promised definitely that if they were elected they would abolish school taxation. What do we have now, Mr. Speaker? Two school taxes. We have the old school tax No. 23 R29

for children's education and now we have the Minister of Finance's infamous payroll tax for post-secondary education. What is really ludicrous, Mr. Speaker, is that the new payroll tax is going to be imposed on the st. John's School Tax Authority, the largest in the Province, so some of the collections of the St. John's School Tax Authority for children's education are now going to be diverted to the Department of Finance supposedly to be paid for post -secondary education, Mr. Speaker. My time is running out. There is a lot more I could say.

I will note quickly that there is inadequate funding for student assistants or teacher aides who are required for integration ~f students with handicaps and learning disabilities into regular schools and classes, over a $1 million shortfall, Mr. Speaker, and the a.nswer is another impulse, another rash, ad hoc, makeshift arrangement of Social Services Community Development funding along with the permanent Department of Education funding. The Social Services budget in question has been slashed by $4.5 million. Mr. Speaker, school busing, as my colleague the Member for St.

Mary's - The Capes said in QUestion Period today, the amount is frozen, there is no proper provision for rising school transportation costs. And while the Minister talks about studying duplication, he is dillydallying and he is not giving school boards any assurance that the legitimate requirements for transporting students from home to school and back will be met this year. Mr. Speaker, school boards have been given a squeeze. L30 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI As I mentioned, Justice, similarly, is seriously underfunded. One of the two greatest deficiencies is legal aid.

Legal aid has had funding problems for quite a while, but it has now reached crisis proportions. Few lawyers in the Province are willing any longer to accept legal aid wo•k because the scale of fees is so low; it ls only half what Government pays pc-osecutors. MR • SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I might just have half a minute, ~ will round it out. The other area of Justice that is underfunded is victim services. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will get back to this later, in the Concurrence Debate. SOME HOM.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: I really was not waiting for applause, but it is nice to get it. I was waiting for the Speaker to recognize me. Thank you, gentlemen. Mo. 23 R30

"" I have to make a couple of comments about the speake~. the Vice-Chaiman of social policy on the Estimates Committee. How many yea~s was she Ministe~ of Education? MR. MURPHY: I do not know how many yea~s, but (inaudible). MR. EFFORD: How many yea~s? Just imagine! nobody can ~ecall when o~ how long she was Ministe~ of Education. That is a good start. But she stands he~e in the House of Assembly this afternoon and tells us or tells the han. House of Assembly that mo~ale in the Department of Education is now at an all-time low, and that when she was Minister it was at an all-time high. Talk about a dreamer.

We have to admire you. I mean, we cannot even remember when you were Minister of Education, or how long you were Minister of Education, let alone what you accomplished. But this Minister of Education, I have to say before I get on to the Department of Social Services, as far as this Province is concerned, is the only Minister of Education since Confederation. Even old anti-confederate himself will agree with that, because now we are seeing some positive things in the Department of Education. But let us get to the Department of Social Services.

I sat in Estimates Committees and I listened to a number of people, almost to the point where I pitied them really, trying to find some questions to ask the officials of the Department of Social Services. MR. SIMMS: They danced around (inaudible). MR. EFFORD: L31 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI No, I do not do that. The only one I can really commend fo~ the job that was done is the Member for St. John's East. I must say that when she did ask questions, they we~e questions relating to the issues of the day.

And each time she asked a question, she congratulated the Ministe~ and his staff fo~ the excellent job they were doing. But the Membe~ for Humber East, being Vice-Chairman of the Committee, made a lot of statements. She started off with saying she was going to ask a question. Ten minutes later, I would ask her to get to the question; she was still making a comment on something that happened back seven or eight years ago. I guess she was so used to me being in Opposition and relating the inadequacies of the Department of Social Services, that she thought she would play the same field.

But no really good questions came out. She tried to get across the point that the fifty new positions we are getting this year, adding to the Department, were not fifty new positions. For about one or two hours in the Estimates Committee that is the point she was trying to make, that we were just filling temporary positions. And we repeated over, and over, and over, and over that we are not filling temporary positions existing in the Department, they are fifty new positions, full-time, permanent positions created for the child abuse unit.

We took up almost two hours of the Estimates Committee trying to get that message across. There are a lot of good things happening in the Department of Social Services; we are making a lot of changes. SOME HOIJ. MEMBERS: Ho. 23 R31

Hear, hear! MR . EF FORD: Thank you. First of all, we have to look at the problems and the source of the problems. It is not very difficult to go back over the last number of years and look at what was not happening. It is very difficult to find what was happening positively in the Department of Social Services, but it is not difficult to find what was not happening. You can go through every program within the Department, and there are eight major programs, and very few of the programs have shown any significant change over the last two decades. Let us go back to the Child Welfare Act. Do you realize, Mr.

Speaker, that 1974 was the last time there were changes made to the Child Welfare Act, and this is now 1990? It is almost fifteen years since any real changes were made to the Day Care and Homemakers Act . AN HON . MEMBER: How many? MR. EFFORD: Almost fifteen years. That is the type of progress we had from the Progressive Conservatives in doing things that were essential to the needs of the day. The only thing they could come into the Estimates Committee and criticize was whether the fifty new workers were going to fill temporary positions or if they were new positions which had been created. That is it exactly.

That is all. All they have to do is read the book. All they had to do is listen to the reading of the Budget. Some of the things which were not talked about in the L32 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Estimates Commitee, some things I would have expected they would have asked questions on, were things like subsidized adoption. That is one thing we are very pleased about in the Department of Social Services. Legislation will be introduced in this sitting having to do with subsidized adoption.

We have a lot of children in the Province, children with special needs out in foster homes, children who have some fonn of disability, developmentally delayed or a physical disability, or behavioural problems, and it is very difficult to encourage people to adopt those children . In fact, a lot of people in the Province are not even aware that these children are out there available for adoption. When you apply for adoption of a child, most emphasis is placed on infants, especially infants to three years of age. You cannot stop that.

You have to do what you can to provide those children for the people and to provide information services, but we have approximately 700 to 800 children in the Province who are being moved around from foster home to foster home year after year. with really no ties, really no family connection. AN HOII. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: Yes, in special needs. All HOB'. MEMBER: What are the actual ages? MR. EFFORD: Ages ten and up, ten to sixteen. All HOB'. MEMBER: And they are not (inaudible). MR. EFFORD: Oh, no. But if so wished, we can No. 23 R32

do it. What we are going to do, Mr. Speaker, is make available, and nobody is obligated to take it or forced to take it, but the money we use to put children into foster homes, for example, if we spend $300 or $400, depending on the child's needs, to put a child into a foster" home, a parent adopting that child can have that money if they so wish to provide for the special needs of that child. if the child needs special transportation, special clothing. special footwear. or a special service because of their disability. whether physical. developmentally delayed. or just behavioural problems. MR.

SIMMS: Is that on top of (inaudible). MR. EFFORD: Well. this would have to do with adoptive parents. Adoptive parents do not receive any money in the normal adoption process. When the court awards you a child, then that child is the same as your own natural child. This is for adopting children with special needs. What we are trying to do is accomplish two things: First of all, we want to make people aware that there are a lot of children. a lot of good children, in those particular homes to be adopted. We do not want to say we are going to pay you to adopt them.

What we are saying is if you need the money. the monies are there; we are spending it on foster homes anyway. MR. SIMMS: That program has been in place for a number of years, you say? MR. EFFORD: Wo, we are just introducing it now. This is a new thing. L33 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI AN HON. MEMBER: It is new? MR. EFFORD: We are talking at least 700 to 800. I cannot give you the exact number, but there at"e quite a large number of children. Today we are talking about children ten years and over.

There is sti 11 a significant number of children, ft"om infants to six. seven and eight year-olds. and we will probably reduce the age to seven or eight year-olds when we see how this WOr'ks. This is just to see how it WOr'kS. The other' ser"ious problem in adoption services. Mr. Speaker. is the fact that if you were to apply for adoption of a child - when we talk about a child. an infant to a three year old - you have at least a minimum of a seven year waiting per'iod before you can adopt.

Now that is a ser"ious thing to deal with alone. any parent or parents who want to adopt a child and who have to wait seven years. Let us say. for' argument's sake. parents averaging thirty-five to forty year's old have to wait seven year's. They are for"ty-five, forty-six. forty-seven years old before they get a child. and it could possibly be longer than that. That is the minimum length of time they would have to wait. MR. SIMMS: Why does it take seven years? MR. EFFORD: Because of children. MR. SIKHS: the shortage of Oh, I see. It is not the process. MR.

EFFORD: No. it is not the process. one of the main problems I have to deal No. 23 R33

with, and probably the Minister of Justice at some time would like to speak on this, because 1 have a concern about it, is that the coucts will award and will insist on the Department of Social Services keeping children together with a parent oc parents whecever possible. I have some concerns about that, because there are a lot of cases where a lot of people who, through no fault of their own, have one or two children, in most cases it is one child, and they really cannot give that individual the proper care and the propec services.

That is the reason we end up with a lot of children in foster homes, being moved around all over the place, because of the parents inability to look after those children. But Social Services, according to the courts, must do everything in its power, but it has to be under extreme circumstances only. It is a lot more difficult to take a child from a parent now than it was five or six or ten years ago.

Because more and more today the courts are encouraging, even in cases of abuse in a lot of cases, the courts will, after so much family counselling and abuse counselling, whatever counselling service is needed, encouraging you to try and keep the families together. MR. SPE.AICER: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. MR. BFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXBR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: L34 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I must say I was quite interested in what the Minister of Social Services had to say during the latter part of his comments.

I was not too interested in his first couple of minutes, he was, as usual, a bit political and partisan. He likes to be like that, and he likes to get his colleagues reved up, shall we say, he tries to get them reved up a bit. I must say I have to confess it is the f icst time I listened to the Minister with any degree of intensity, because it is the first time I have heard him talk about a topic that is of extreme importance, and the first time I ever heard him address anything in a serious way, without being partisan. I say this to him sincerely.

One of the reasons we do not hear from the Minister, I suppose, is that there are not too many questions asked of him. MR. EFFORD: You do not have any questions. MR. SIMMS: Well, one of the reasons for it is probably because of the Minister's reputation. His reputation far precedes him, and his reputation is one of being partisan and nasty and stuff like that. So why bother to ask questions of a Minister who is going to treat questions in that manner? I say to him, if the Minister intends to act a little more sensible in the future in answering questions, he might very well get some.

But the very first time we ask one and he gets on with his normal nonsense and partisanship, then he can rest assured that will be his last again. No. 23 R34

But, I must say, I listened with some interest to what he had to say about the adoption subsidy program. I find that very interesting. I commend the Minister, if it is a new initiative, on undertaking such an initative, because I agree with him.

I have had some involvement with the handicapped, developmentally delayed, but physically handicapped people in particular, in my own family, as a matter of fact, so I understand how difficult it would be for parents or prospective parents to want to make the commitment to take on a handicapped person, a developmentally delayed or physically delayed person, because it is a very big challenge for parents to be able to deal with that. I am not even sure if subsidy is the right word for the Minister to be using in the program. MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMS: Yes, it might not be the right word.

I mean, I know what he is saying. If a parent or if a family is prepared to adopt somebody in that category, the Department is prepared to provide some assistance that would be required above and beyond the responsibility a family would have with a normal child, and I think that is a good idea. Mr. Speaker, I only have ten minutes, and there are two or three matters I want to raise for the Minister's attention. Then I want to make a few remarks about the debate on Meech Lake, believe it or not.

Since it is a budgetary discussion and it is wide-ranging, certainly what might L35 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI happen with respect to the end result of Meech Lake and the country would have an effect on our Budget, so I do not think there is any question of relevancy or anything like that. But I do want to have a few comments at the end about that. First of all, I would like to make a few comments on two or three topics related to two or three Government Departments which are covered under this particular grouping, Social Services Estimates Committee. One is to the Minister of Justice.

I asked the question in the House some time ago about the new courthouse in Grand Falls. Every week I am usually out in the Grand Falls District and I see the house that Len built, as they call it out there, and I wonder - AN HON. MEMBER: That was the hospital. MR. SIMMS: Oh, that was the hospital. Sorry! But I have people now asking me, who think the reason the official - well, the same thing could apply to the hospital, for that matter, as we have had a fine, magnificent expansion out there. But there has been no effort or indication, that I am aware of, of an official opening of that beautiful facility.

I think it should be officially opened to give the public and the press a chance to do something on that. Perhaps the regional Minister, the Minister of Forestry, might be planning that kind of a thing. The same thing applies courthouse out there. beautiful facility and Government should get official opening IJo. 23 to the new It is a I think the on with the of that R35

facility. I do not want to be too for-ward here and ask for- an invitation, but perhaps the Ministers involved, and the regional Minister-, might keep it under- consideration. I can assure you, whether- they invite me or­ not, I shall be there, ao they might as well make it official and formal. I wonder if the Minister of Justice, when he speaks . in this Concurrence Debate, might be able to address the question and tell me when he plans to have the official opening ceremony? MS VERGE: And are we going Those of us who courthouse. MR.

SIMMS: to be invited? (inaudible) the Now, you see, I did not ask that question, somebody else did. The Minister might address that. He might also address the question that was raised last fall about security for these courthouses. I noticed he had a comment to make publicly in the local press out in Grand Falls last week about the security issue, but I gather it is no different now than it was before, since talking to some of the judges and courtroom people out there, and that in reality there is no firm, fixed security in that facility. I think there should be. That was the point I was making.

The Minister of Health, when he stands in the debate, perhaps he could tell me when he understands agreement will be reached to have the official opening of the brand new expansion, the fine expansion of the hospital in Grand Falls. · MS VERGE: L36 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI And why did they put in a classroom and then cut the funding for- it? MR. SIMMS: That was my next question, and it goes to the Minister- of Health and the Minister of Education.

I had representations when I was in Grand Falls over the weekend from others at the hospital, at the health care level in the hospital, nurses, for example, who spoke to me on Saturday about this cu tba ck of the funding from the Depart ment of Education. It is education fu .nding , as I understa nd it. But these people involved in the health care sector in the hospital, in Grand Falls, were very, very concerned about this particular decision taken by the Government to eliminate the funding for that teaching position.

Now, the program at the hospital in Gand Falls, as the Minister of Health might be aware, actually is a program that has been in place for sixteen years. It is not something which just came into place a year or two ago and they found it was not working. It has been in place for sixteen years, and some of the students, some of the children who were hospitalized and were students of the teacher out there, were actually students who have been in the hospital for upwards of a month. So, I mean , they are fairly long-term patients. I just think the decision is really a wrong decision, it is a bad decision.

I hope the Minister of Forestry might be able to impress upon his colleagues around the Cabinet table the necessity of reconsidering this particular matter, because I think it is a regressive step and a regressive decision, certainly one that is going to be very, very unfavorably received, I can assure him. · llo. 23 R36

I had calls today from people out in the hospital area, there are petitions being developed and generated now, and I think the Minister of Forestry and the Member for Exploits can expect to receive phone calls and letters and all the rest of it, because that is what they want to do. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am running out of time, but I do want to make a couple of comments on the Meech Lake Debate.

First of all, I have to say, as a Newfoundlander, I am very, very upset with the way the whole debate over Meech Lake has progressed, particularly over the last month and-a-half, and I have to say I believe some of the reason for it is because of the decision by this Legislature to rescind the original approval of the Meech Lake Agreement. I think that was a provocative move that did not help the situation at all, and I expressed my views at the time the debate was ongoing. It was not necessary. In our view, it was not needed at that time, and I think that has provoked this whole debate.

And, unfortunately, the debate, itself is degenerating to an all-time low and we are seeing in this country today, perhaps more dissention than we have ever, ever seen in the past. I think I can say that, except for what happened fifty years ago, I do not know, but certainly, in the last couple of decades, since I have been following politics, I have never seen the dissention that you see and hear about now in our country. I also want to say publicly that I am not very happy at all with some of the public comments made by Federal Government politicians who are political cousins of ours.

I L37 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI am not happy with comments by the Lucien Bouchards of the world, I am not happy with comments of the Joe Clarks of the world, I am not happy with comments made by Robert Bourrassa, I am not happy with comments made by our own Premier, by the way, in response, on occasion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: Well, I am telling you, now, this is how I feel about it. I am not happy with a lot of the comments. MR. EFFORD: You are not happy at all. MR. SIMMS: I am not happy at all, exactly right. The Minister of Social Services has put his finger on it.

I am not happy at all with the way the debate is going on this whole Meech Lake issue. But my most bitter feelings, Mr. Speaker, I have to say, are towards columnists on the mainland like the Charles Lynches of the world and the Marjorie Nichols of the world. MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. Kember's time has expired. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, could I have a couple of minutes, perhaps, to continue on this trend? SOME HOH. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SIMMS: What I want to say about the comments of these columnists is this, that somehow, they are bitter towards the Premier of llo. 23 R37

Newfoundland and Labrador. It is obvious they are bitter towards the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, if you read and listen to their comments. Unfortunately, we, as a people in Newfoundland and Labrador, are tarred with the same brush. That is the unfortunate come-back or fallout fc·om what they have said. So their comments towards the Premier, which have been very nasty by the way, are, in my view, also being directed towards the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that is what I find unfortunate. AH HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS: That is what I do not like.

I find that sad, and I say to these columnists from the mainland, who, very rarely, if ever, in all of their years have ever commented on any effects or any aspect of Newfoundland life; you have hardly ever heard them say anything about Newfoundland, good or bad, in the past. I would suggest to them that they keep their noses out of Newfoundland's business, Newfoundland's personal business. If they want to debate or write columns on the Meech Lake Accord, let them confine their comments to the topics and the issues that are being debated. If they want to attack the Premier, I do not care about that either.

But, whatever they do, do not attack the people . of Newfoundland and Labrador, butt out of our business, leave our people alone, and do not think that we are very happy at all with what they had to say. It did not help the debate one iota. Especially what Charles Lynch had to say - did not help the debate one iota. I think their comments, L38 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI quite frankly, were despicable and I find that I have to take advantage of this opportunity to make that kind of a comment, because I sincerely believe that what they did was wrong and they should stay out of it.

They are not helping the debate in any way, shape or form. We will get back to it a little later on, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR . EFFORO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to make a comment first, about the Member for Grand Falls. I had expected him to talk about another problem, but I was quite surprised when he got up to tell me that I may get some questions tomorrow in Question Period.

I can assure the han. the Member for Grand Falls that I will change my attitude or my way of doing things no less if he asked me a question tomorrow or he did last week or when was it? last month when I was asked the last question. I will not be political, Mr. Speaker, no more than I was in the past. MR. SIMMS: That was your own question. MR. EFFORO: No more than I was in the past . MS VERGB: You cannot help yourself. MR. EFFORD: In fact, after sitting through today's Question Period I am really getting to the point where Jlo. 23 R38

I think I am going to try to see if I can get some sort of a little business on the go - myself and the Minister of Education, where we might give him some information and write some questions for him, probably a little side business. Because it is really despet"ate today to see the Members reaching and looking at each other, who is getting up next? What at"e we going to ask now? There is still lots of time left. It is too bad, you know, we have ten ot" fifteen people on the opposite side, and with all the questions that you could be asking - you really do not have it togethet".

But pt"obably we will do something to help him out. Probably some of the Membet"s on this side might get up and ask a few questions just to show them how it is done, pt"obably the Member for Bonavista North or Bonavista South, I should say, might get up tomorrow and ask a question. MR. DECKER: I would not mind asking you a question. MR. EFFORD: Yes, even the Minister of Health may even ask me a question. MS VERGE: By leave. MR. EFFORD: Kr. Speaker, there are a couple of other things I want to talk about concerning the Department of Social Services and what is . happening there.

And again we just talked about the subsidized adoption issue the last time I spoke a few short minutes ago and that question did not arise in the Estimates Committees. Another program being changed and worked upon in the Department of Social Services is the mandatory L39 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI t"egistt"ation of social workers. When I was appointed Minister of Social Set"vices last year one of the f lrst things the Newfoundland Association of Social Wot"kers came to me and asked was, would I tcy to bring in the mandatory registration of social workers?

I was surprised because I thought this would have been one of the f it"st things the fanner Minister would have dealt with in the Department of Social Services. They infonned me that fot" seventeen years, and this is not going back seventeen yeat"s and blaming it on the Administration, because this is what the Newfoundland Association of Social Workers told me that they had been trying for seventeen years to tC'y to convince the former Administration to bring in this mandatory C'egistration. And I was quite surprised that it was not done.

So anyway we went ahead and I looked at it and the officials of my Department briefed me on that particular issue and we learned that there was not even any draft papers, there was nothing in the Department to indicate that the former Minister had even considered it. So we set about and first of all got the paper through and we are now introducing it in this sitting of the House of Assembly - for legislation to be brought in under mandatory registration - and we feel very strongly that everybody is going to agree with that.

Because the one thing we have to recognize across the Province are the demands for professional people in the Department of Social Services. Over the last year, one year, two years everybody in the Province is well aware of the difficult cases that are out there Uo. 23 R39

in child abuse in pat"ticulat". It is astounding to know and to t"ealize that thet"e is in excess now of 7,500 cases of child pt"otectlon being wot"ked with in the Depat"tment of Social Set"vices act"oss the Pt"ovince of Newfoundland and Labt"adot". In fact we at"e going closet" now to 8,000 cases and the numbet" of cases that at"e being uncovet"ed are increasing monthly.

And if you are going to deal with those sot"ts of cases and it is not only child sexual abuse it is physical abuse, mental abuse, neglect, and thet"e at"e many diffet"ent explanations fot" child abuse, but if you at"e going to deal with those sot"t of cases and you at"e going to put the family counselling set"vices in place, tt"y to intt"oduce some pt"evention methods afteLWards and follow up you have to have professional people.

It is very important when you place people into a program like that that you have people not only academically tt"ained in university level whether it be a B.S.W. or an M.S.W. but you also must put some training in place once you hire those people on in the particular child abuse unit or the Department of Social Services because each social worker, every person I have spoken to over the past ten or eleven months will tell you, there is nothing that can replace the street training, the actual on the job street training and the training of the people dealing directly with a particular case.

And we are addressing that, Mr. Speaker, right now in the Department of Social Services. I know there has been a lot of doubts expressed by not only people in the Opposition, but people in the general public, and some of the news media have been expressing and asking, and it is a L40 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI natural concern: are we going to be able to fill those fifty positions with people with B.S. Ws or M.S.Ws? And I must say, Mr.

Speaker, as of now, today, although the closing date is May 7 for the competition - if the closing date was today we would be able to put in excess of thit"ty -five people with B.S .Ws into those fifty positions, and we still have a couple of weeks to go before May 7, so we expect by that time, that is another week - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: Pardon? AN HOM. KEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: No, no, these are thirty-five positions outside that are not presently working with the Department. For example, we have forty people graduating this year from the School of Social Work at Memorial University.

I do not think it is a fact that there were not people in the Province available to go to work before but I think it had a lot to do with the sort of negative P R that was coming out of the Department of Social Services. The case loads, for example, 107 cases per workel:' fol:' child abuse. Who would want to get involved in something like that? Not the fact that it was hard wol:'k, but the fact is that it was frustl:'ating and confusing for a person working with childl:'en who were physically, mentally or sexually abused and to know that you had so many cases that you could not reasonably service any of them.

All HOY. KEMBBR: Yo. 23 R40

(Inaudible) . MR. EFFORD: I am going to Labrador tonight at 6:00 by the way . I am going to Goose Bay on a child abuse conference. And then in June I am going down to Labrador for a full week, and we are going to Davis Inlet and we are going to Nain. I can assure the Member for Labrador that this Minister of Social Services is paying very close attention not only to what is happening in Newfoundland, but in Labrador also because we are all part of the one community. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

EFFORD: I just told you I about an hours time. flying into Goose Bay. am going in At 6:00 I am But anyhow, Mr. Speaker, getting back to the issue of mandatory registration of social workers. I was quite surprised that in Estimates Committee, in the two or three days we had an Estimates Committee, never once did they ask a question about the mandatory registration of social workers. Never asked the question: do we have enough graduate social workers, do we have enough qualified people to work within the Department of Social Services?

And they sit here and they wonder why, when I stand up, I have to say I feel sorry for them, because they do not have · their act together, they do. not understand what is happening. L41 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI And we have at least one former Minister of Social Services over there, you would thing at least he would. He does not even hear. You can say this is the interest he has. You would think at least he would have some idea of what the Department is all about. But then I am told by some of the officials in the Department that most of the time the office was vacant. It was vacated by the Minister.

In fact it was vacated more times than the Chair was filled. I cannot get his attention down there at all today, you know. He is not listening. But seriously we hope that this new legislation that is being introduced in the House now, the mandatory registration of social workers will solve the problem that we are having across the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador with not enough qualified people to adequately serve the type of cases that we are dealing with. And today more and more, Mr.

Speaker, and as we go into the future, that is going to be a bigger demand on the Department of Social Services to provide those services by trained people, and to bring in and to give the people we already have in the Department a chance. We have already met with the school of social work to ensure that those people there now who are interested in furthering their education, completing their B.S.W. or their K.S.W. will get a leave of absence to do it. I am talking about providing distance education - providing courses through correspondence through the Grenfell College in Corner Brook.

Hopefully they will put some services in place, then they will be able to take advantage of the courses out there, because it is difficult for people living in .No. 23 RU

Nor-ther-n Newfoundland, Wester-n Newfoundland to come to St. John's. It is expensive, pr-oviding the financial costs, leaving their: families, finding acommodations and so on. So we ar-e going to wor-k ver-y closely with the school of social wor-k and they have agr:eed that they will pr-ovide the oppor-tunities for­ people wor-king in Distr:ict offices ar-ound Newfoundland and Labr:ador to get their courses available so that they can get their B.S .W. and that they will not lose any positions even though some of them are concerned now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. MR.

EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR • SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. MR . PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have been listening to the Minister · of Social Services for the last fifteen minutes. I was out for a cup of coffee in the interim. I agree with some of the things he has been saying with the exception of, in his last couple of minutes, he said that the previous Minister had left his office so often that his chair was not even kept warm. Now, I have to disagree with him on that count, Mr. Speaker.

The other thing I wanted to say was today I had the pleasure of being at a luncheon where the Hon . Mary Co llins spo ke, and believe you me, taking away the poli ti cal side of it, it was rewarding to me that I went to the luncheon and I am sure it was educational for everyone who attended, including yours L42 April 30, 1990 Vol XLI truly. Ther-e was a lot mo re sai d in those few minutes than I have hear-d in this House in manys the hou r. I am not bein g de["ogatory in tha t sens e b ut I th in k the["e are a lot of things out ther-e that should be said. Again, I just br:ought it up because the hon.

Lady is the Minister r:esponsible for the Status of Women and in most ar-eas of concern that we have today as far as our social pr-ograms are concerned, the abuses and whatever that goes along with those social programs, I think you can relate it to women who have strived so hard in the last number of years to bring their: message across to politicians and to people in general. What is happening out there is not desirable and certainly cannot be accepted.

We have seen, over the last number of months, the Hughes Enquiry which certainly placed great emphasis on, and I think woke up a lot of people to what was happening out there. Personally speaking some of the things that have been said were to me sort of a dream, something that you would read about in perhaps a comic book. I never thought that in many instances those things were happening.

I appreciate the fact, and I think everyone else in Newfoundland and Labrador will appreciate the fact, that the Minister responsible for Social Services is cognizant of what is happening and he is trying his best to perhaps do some of the things that need to be done so that this can never happen again in the society we live in. I also have to say to the Minister of Social Services that the 4 per cent increase for social service recipients is not much really. I No. 23 R42

had a call today f~om a constituent of mine who is on social assistance. They a~e a family that do not go out ve~y much. Thei~ environment is such, I suppose, that they are mostly at home. The sto~y related to me was here they are with a son home, and a child not their own, living in the house with them, and they on social services and I certainly appreciated the fact that they were finding it very hard to survive. I know