British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, October 5, 2005

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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, October 5, 2005 Afternoon Sitting Volume 2, Number 1 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC FIRST SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation .......................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services .......................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Deregulation ...................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sports and the Arts........................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Acting Legislative Comptroller..................................................................................................................................................Brent Cunningham

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)...................................................................................Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP)....................................................................... Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon. Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Bennett, Hon.

Bill (L) .....................................................................East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ..................................................................Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)..........................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon.

Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ............................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) .............................................................................North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)................................................................. Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) ..............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP)......................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ............................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ....................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...................................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...................................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP)............................................................................ Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) .................................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)...........................................................

Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)................................................................ Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)....................................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP)............................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) .................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)..............................................................................

Nanaimo Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................ Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)....................................................................

Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP)......................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)......................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L)...................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ....................................................... Peace River North Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon.

Wally, QC (L)............................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)................................................................ Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ......................................................................................... Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)........................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...................................................................Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon.

Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) .....................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP).......................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ..............................................................Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ........................................ Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP).......................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ......................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon. Carole (L)..........................................................

Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) ......................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) .......................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) ......................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)........................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ...............................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................. Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North....................................................................................Bob Simpson Cariboo South................................................................................... Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ....................................................................... Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke ......................................................Norm Macdonald Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville................................................................... Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................................Doug Routley Delta North........................................................................................

Guy Gentner Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay ............................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin ............................................................. Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson..........................................................

Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .......................................................................Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ............................................................................Sindi Hawkins Langley................................................................................................

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca........................................................................John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...........................................................Michael Sather Nanaimo ...........................................................................................Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville..........................................................................

Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston.................................................................................. Corky Evans New Westminster ........................................................................Chuck Puchmayr North Coast .........................................................................................Gary Coons North Island.................................................................................... Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ....................................................

Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................. Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain................................................. Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .........................................................................Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast.....................................................Nicholas Simons Prince George North .........................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .....................................................................John Rustad Richmond Centre .......................................................................... Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ............................................................................... John Yap Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon.

Murray Coell Saanich South..............................................................................David Cubberley Shuswap ................................................................................ Hon. George Abbott Skeena ...............................................................................................Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................

Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ....................................................................................Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge...................................................................... Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ............................................................................... Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock..........................................................................

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.................................................................. Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings...................................................................... Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington ........................................................... David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway...........................................................................

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara.................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ........................................................................Carole James Victoria-Hillside................................................................................

Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary ............................................................ Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................. Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet ..........................................................................................Harry Lali

CONTENTS Wednesday, October 5, 2005 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................... 455 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ............... 456 World Teachers Day J. Horgan Substance abuse services on North Shore K. Whittred Aboriginal cultural events on North Coast G. Coons Kay Meek Centre for the Performing Arts R.

Sultan Women's resources in Nanaimo L. Krog Government assistance for Okanagan fruit growers A. Horning Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ........................................................... 458 Conflict-of-interest guidelines for 2010 Olympic Games C. James Hon. C. Hansen Funding for 2010 Olympic Games and role of Auditor General H. Bains Hon. C. Hansen Legacy project and Mount St. Joseph Hospital J. Kwan Hon. G. Abbott Terms of sale of Terasen Gas to Kinder Morgan C. Evans Hon. R. Neufeld S. Simpson N.

Macdonald Softwood lumber negotiations M. Farnworth Hon. R. Coleman Compensation for sawmill workers B. Simpson Hon. R. Coleman Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ..................................................... 463 Teachers' Collective Agreement Act (Bill 12) (continued) A. Dix B. Ralston D. Chudnovsky H. Lali N. Simons Hon. S. Bond H. Bains S. Simpson S. Fraser C. Wyse B. Simpson

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ..................................................... 503 Estimates: Ministry of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Deregulation Hon. R. Thorpe M. Karagianis C. Trevena

455 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 The House met at 2:02 p.m. Prayers. Introductions by Members Hon. J. Les: I'm pleased this afternoon to introduce to the House Randi Hermans, who is a teacher- librarian in the Chilliwack school district. In fact, she is the vice-president of the B.C. Teacher-Librarians Asso- ciation. She teaches at Evans Elementary School in my riding. A few years ago she taught at East Chilliwack Elementary, where I joined he r with a class of students and read a few books — East Chilliwack being the place where I started my schooling many years ago. I ask the House to please make Randi welcome.

C. Trevena: I, too, would like to welcome a guest to the House: a sometime teacher-librarian, Fred Robert- son, who teaches grades three and four at Port McNeill. I hope the House will welcome him. Hon. J. van Dongen: Today in the visitors' gallery we have two special visitors from the republic of Trini- dad and Tobago. His Excellency Arnold Piggott, High Commissioner for the republic of Trinidad and Tobago, and Mrs. Allison Wendy Kitson-Piggott are making their first official visit to Victoria. I ask the House to please join me in making them welcome. H.

Bains: Today in the gallery is Shelley Wilcox, who has been a teacher for 20 years. She is from my constitu- ency of Surrey-Newton, and she helps teachers with integrated technology and curriculum. Please join me in extending a warm welcome to Shelley to the House. [1405] Hon. W. Oppal: It is a pleasure for me to introduce Brian Hue, a teacher from David Thompson Secondary School in my riding. I'd ask the House to give a warm welcome to Mr. Hue. S.

Simpson: It's a pleasure for me to introduce one of my constituents, Suzie Mah, who is an elementary school teacher in Vancouver, grades six and seven, in the Greater Vancouver Distance Education School where she teaches 34 students. These students come from Whistler to Delta. I would hope the House would make her welcome. Hon. O. Ilich: I'm very pleased to rise in the House today to welcome a tourism industry delegation from Guangzhou province in Ch ina. They represent the tourism administration of Guangzhou province.

They came to Vancouver today after visiting Los Angeles, Chicago and Toronto, and this morning they visited Butchart Gardens here in the capital city. The group is led by Mr. Mah. I'm especially pleased because we are currently negotiating an approved destination status with China, through the federal government. We hope to welcome many more delegations to our province over the next number of years. So I hope they will go back to China and spread the word about what a fabu- lous province we are.

I would like everybody to wel- come them and wish them a great day in the best place on earth, beautiful British Columbia. R. Austin: It is my pleasure today to introduce one of my constituents, Maryka Gregg, who is a teacher- librarian from school district 82. Maryka teaches at Clarence Michiel Elementary School in Terrace. She's also the chair of the working and learning conditions for the BCTLA. I ask that the House please welcome Maryka. I.

Black: It is my pleasure to welcome to the House today ten students from Simon Fraser University, with whom I had the pleasure of sharing lunch and enjoying the fine fare of our dining room. I'd ask the House to make them feel welcome. J. Nuraney: I, too, have the pleasure of welcoming a teacher-librarian from my riding of Burnaby- Willingdon, Pat Perinow. I would ask the House to please make her feel welcome. J. Rustad: Today visiting in the gallery is a con- stituent, Carolyn Rowland. She's an elementary teacher, and she's also the pa st president of the Prince George District Teachers' Association.

I look forward to meeting with her later this afternoon, and I ask the House to please make her welcome. A. Horning: I am pleased to introduce to the House today a special guest, Angie McRitchie, who is a teacher a n d l i b r a r i a n i n m y r i d i n g o f K e l o w n a – L a k e C o u n t r y . Would the House please make her welcome today. R. Hawes: I rise to make three introductions today. The first one is Brandon Langhjelm. He's a member of the Young Liberals and a director of my riding association at home.

I also have the pleasure of introducing, from ar- guably the best independent school in British Columbia, Mr. Parker, who is a grade 11 teacher, with 25 of his stu- dents from Meadowridge Secondary School in Maple Ridge. Could the House please make them welcome. Also in the gallery today is Norma Eaton with Sophia Pacino. Norma is the director of the Cosmetologists Asso- ciation of British Columbia and represents 18,000 women and about 10,000 businesses in British Columbia working hard to make British Columbia a better place. Could the House please make Norma and Sophia welcome. [1410] Hon. I.

Chong: We're joined in the House today by a constituent of mine, Karen Lindsay. Karen is a long- time educator in Victoria with 22 years of classroom teaching and four years as a teacher-librarian to her credit. While she resides in my riding of Oak Bay– Gordon Head, she is actually currently a teacher-

456 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 librarian at Reynolds Secondary School in Saanich South. I'd ask the House to please make her welcome. H. Bloy: It's an honour to stand here today and introduce students from Simon Fraser University — the B.C. Liberal group. Th ey've been extraordinarily hard workers on a number of campaigns across the province through this last election, and a couple of them were from the riding of Burquitlam. We have Woosang Lee, the president, and Silvester Law.

We also have Brandon Langhjelm, Brock Ste- phenson, Jacqueline Halliburn, Derek Turner, David Yau, Henry Ma, Richard Ly, Shaun Webb and Yang King. Would the House please welcome these dedi- cated, hard workers from Simon Fraser University. N. Simons: I'd just like to draw the attention of the House to a visiting group of Young New Democrats in the gallery from the University of Victoria. Please let them be welcome. R. Cantelon: It is indeed my pleasure today to in- troduce to you a constituent, Dorda Pitaway, a teacher at Georgia Avenue School. Would the House please make her feel welcome. J.

Nuraney: I have one more guest to introduce. I have the great pleasure of introducing a very special guest, Rayyann Alibhai-Maherali, who is a student with the Meadowridge School in Maple Ridge and a granddaughter of a very special friend of mine, a per- son called Sadrudin Nasser Alibhai. May the House please make her feel very welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: In the gallery today are two very good friends from Salmon Arm. Nancy Cooper is a former colleague at Okanagan College and today is a city councillor at Salmon Arm. With her is her husband Harry van Warden. Harry is special for a whol e lot of reasons.

He's the manager of the employment assistance office in Salmon Arm and does a wonderful, wonderful job there. I can tell you that he is an invaluable asset to our constituency office there and does a great job. Even more special, he is one of those wonderful British Columbians who today are receiving a long-service award, so I think we want to extend special congratulations and welcome to him. Hon. P. Bell: It's always a pleasure for me to be able to introduce someone from my constituency.

Today I'm espe- cially proud to be able to introduce a neighbour, a friend and a great teacher from Prince George North, Raine Hard- ing. Would the House please make her very welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) WORLD TEACHERS DAY J. Horgan: Today is World Teachers Day. First cele- brated in 1994, World Teachers Day was put in place by the United Nations agen cy UNESCO to recognize the vital contributions teachers make to the intellectual, cultural and social growth of our communities all over the world. Today I'm very proud to stand in this place to cele- brate World Teachers Day, and I am pleased that there are teachers in the gallery joining us for that opportu- nity. It is a day to recognize the teachers of B.C. and to let them know how very much they are valued, re- spected and appreciated.

Teachers play a crucial role in helping shape our children in the communities that we live in. The role teachers play should never be underestimated or un- dervalued, for without them our society would not grow and prosper. Teachers are the people we entrust our children to every day. As I said yesterday, these are the people that help many of us through challenging and perplexing childhoods in the past, in the present and into the future.

Teachers all across this province guide our children through tricky math proble ms, teach our children the history of our country, coach our soccer teams, sponsor clubs, teach cello, chaperone at dances and many, many, many more extracurricular activities. [1415] This is their day across the world, yet in British Columbia it's a sombre day — regretfully, a sombre day. In Manitoba today the Legislature is celebrating and honouring teachers. Here in this place we are a bit more sombre, and that's unfortunate.

Despite the situa- tion, I urge all members of this place to join with me in acknowledging the absolutely incredible, invaluable role teachers play in the lif e and vibrancy of our prov- ince. SUBSTANCE ABUSE SERVICES ON NORTH SHORE K. Whittred: Four years ago the communities of the North Shore began a journey to address the plague of substance abuse. Our substanc e abuse task force is tak- ing a comprehensive four-pillar approach to dealing with drug addiction throug h prevention, treatment, enforcement and harm reduction. This task force brings together partners from across the community spec- trum.

It includes Vancouver Coastal Health's mental health and addiction unit. It includes the North Shore Youth Safe House, the school districts of West Van and North Van communities, five separate municipalities, the Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh first nations, the West Vancouver police and the RCMP. Every organization that can effect a positive change is stepping up to the plate in this community endeav- our. It's looking at issues and innovative solutions in- cluding drug courts, community treatment programs and preventive programs for youth and families.

I would like to commend the task force and all its part- ners for their hard work an d creative solutions. Work- ing with the province and with the recent $7 million announced to fight crystal me t h , w e w i l l b e c l o s e r t o solving our communities' drug problems.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 457 I commend the North Shore community for the model they have demonstrated. It has become a tem- plate for other communities to follow. ABORIGINAL CULTURAL EVENTS ON NORTH COAST G. Coons: I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak about two celebrations that occurred in my rid- ing this past weekend. Lax Kw'alaams, a Tsimshian community outside of Prince Rupert, hosted more than a thousand people at a three-day event that honoured their elders and youth.

Lax Kw'alaams band council, chiefs, matriarchs and residents officially recognized the completion of Tuck Road that leads to their village from the ferry dock. A trip that took one hour and ten minutes now takes 25 minutes. Also celebrated was th e village's $16 million in- vestment in TFL 1 and the Terrace licence, which will bring a large component of the northwest forest indus- try under local control. One of the highlights wa s a grand opening of the leisure centre and pool — actually, with a waterslide, elder centre and renovated rec centre.

The completion of this project grew out of the input from the youth in the community. What a tribute to them to see their dreams come true. Lax Kw'alaams not only respects the past through their elders, but they have honoured the future through their young people. I also had the privilege of attending the raising of four totem poles in the village of New Aiyansh. Raising four poles at the same time has never been done before. The totems represent the four tribes of the Nisga'a Na- tion. Each tribe — the wolf, eagle, killer whale and frog — told their story through what is termed as a Breath of Life Ceremony.

Residents and many visitors physically and emotionally participated in this cultural event. The four totems, which bring together the Nisga'a as one, are located in front of the villa ge of the New Aiyansh gov- ernment office. It's a sight not to be missed. In closing, I would like to thank Albert Tate, an internationally acclaimed art carver, for inviting me and taking me under his wing to join the eagle clan for the tribal picnic and evening festivities. [1420] KAY MEEK CENTRE FOR THE PERFORMING ARTS R.

Sultan: I ask this House to celebrate the opening of the Kay Meek Centre, a new $10-million cultural jewel located in my riding. The project, a joint venture of the Kay Meek Foundation and West Vancouver school district 45, features two state-of-the-art theatres: a 500-seat main theatre and a 200-seat studio theatre. It's an example of generous private philanthropy com- bining with innovative public school management. Kay Meek, a longtime supporter of the arts, died at age 91 on the very day her dream of a learning-based performing arts centre had its first performance.

That first performance featured the African Children's Choir. It has 35 children, ages seven to 12, from Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda — children who call themselves the princes of Africa, because they lost their parents to war and to AIDS. Proceeds will help keep them in school. You couldn't find a dry eye in the house. Another memorable performance I attended re- cently featured the gospel music of our own Marcus Mosley's Good Noise Choir. West Vancouver politi- cians don't usually jump up and shout hallelujah, but I was tempted.

Finally, our high school students offered audiences their version of the musical Grease — with references to Brylcreem, fast cars and pregnancy — which for me brought back alarming memories of King Edward High School. Here we have a new cultural asset built by one of the truly superb teaching units of our provincially funded public school system, facilitated by the dreams of a lady who wanted to help the kids.

I invite you to dig out your worst shoes and attend this month's Kay Meek fundraiser, the Sneakers Ball, and check out what our dedicated teachers, talented students and smart management can offer — good entertainment and great education. WOMEN'S RESOURCES IN NANAIMO L. Krog: I want to talk about the Nanaimo Women's Resources Society today. It has a proud 25-year history of providing service to women in Nanaimo. Since 1981 it's been an organized non-profit. Its staff and volun- teers have always been available to help women in crisis.

They serve some 300 to 400 clients a month dur- ing the 60 hours that they can actually afford to stay open — just 15 hours a week. October is Women's History Month, but there's not much celebration at the Nanaimo Women's Resources Society since they've lost their core funding. They had to lose their executive director, and they have to strug- gle to make their rent ever y month. In September they managed to raise $1,700 at a beer-and-burger night so they can stay open for another three months. Nanaimo has one of the highest rates of single- women parenting.

Child poverty, the rates of teen pregnancy, spousal assault and illicit drug use are higher in Nanaimo than the B.C. average. Nanaimo female single-parent families earn $4,500 less per year than the B.C. average. Co mpared with other communi- ties in B.C., Nanaimo has th e second-highest rate of dependent elderly women. Between 1997 and 2002 Nanaimo saw a 130-percent incr ease in family violence and, more recently, a steady and sharp decline, obvi- ously, in accessible legal services. This centre provides free counselling, legal clinics and workshops, and free computer, photocopier and fax services.

It offers prog rams to help women with substance abuse, a free clothing exchange, parenting support — even free diapers, soap, bus tickets and more. They are keen to continue their work in our com- munity, but without support it becomes almost impos- sible for them to do so. So particularly as we celebrate

458 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 Women's History Month, I would ask this House to recognize the important work that the staff and volun- teers at this agency do, but I also ask this House to con- sider its obligations to all citizens and groups that re- quire our support in this province. GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE FOR OKANAGAN FRUIT GROWERS A. Horning: Orchardists in my riding of Kelowna– Lake Country and across B.C.'s beautiful Okanagan are facing a financial crunch that's putting a damper on what normally would be a bumper-crop year in 2004.

U.S. fruit is glutting the market, lowering prices and making it tough to turn a profit for close to 1,000 grow- ers. The good news is that a federal-provincial pro- gram, the Canadian Agricult ural Income Stabilization program, exists to provide a financial safety net for growers. But Okanagan grower s are finding it difficult to tap into the program, which is based out of Winni- peg.

There are also cultural and language barriers for Indo-Canadian growers trying to access CAIS. [1425] Some growers are simply throwing up their hands in frustration with the application process, as evi- denced by the fact that only 20 percent of growers have applied to CAIS for assistance with last year's low crop returns. The truth is that CAIS has great potential. That's been proven by how success ful the program has been in helping farmers close to its home base in Manitoba, but the Okanagan is a long way from Winnipeg.

The federal government needs to seriously look at having an Okanagan-based representative from CAIS who can work face to face with our local growers and assist them in navigating the CAIS bureaucracy. That kind of face-to-face contact would also be of huge assistance in breaking down cultural and language barriers that may be keeping many Indo-Canadian orchardists from tap- ping into this aid program. This is a simple fix but one that could make a huge difference to B.C.'s fruit grow- ers.

I also want to acknowledge the proactive work of the provincial Agriculture Minister in bringing federal representatives to the Okanagan Valley to assess the problems and work towards overcoming the barriers that our growers face. Oral Questions CONFLICT-OF-INTEREST GUIDELINES FOR 2010 OLYMPIC GAMES C. James: Can the Minister of Economic Develop- ment define what constitutes a conflict of interest and an apparent conflict of interest? This morning he said it was complicated. Does he have a better answer for us now? Hon. C.

Hansen: I would be pleased to refer the member to the conflict commissioner, who is an inde- pendent officer of this House, and the conflict-of- interest legislation. I'm sure she can find her

definitions there. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: I'd like to present to the minister a specific case to speak about conflict of interest, since he seemed unable to do it earlier. As you know, Mr. Speaker, Con- cert Properties is considering a bid on Olympic facili- ties. Concert's chair is leading the Vancouver organizing committee. Another Concert director sits on VANOC. Concert's president headed up the Olympic Yes cam- paign. Could the Minister of Economic Development tell us if that's an apparent conflict of interest? Hon. C.

Hansen: Concert Properties, at the time that the bid was put in on be half of the city of Vancou- ver, made a commitment to the people of British Co- lumbia that they would not bid on Olympic construc- tion. We expect them to live up to that commitment. I have talked to Jack Poole th is morning, and he has as- sured me that Concert Properties has not and will not bid on Olympic construction. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. C. James: I'm sure many are pleased to hear that, but it doesn't take away from the issue.

Can the Minister of Economic Development please out- line the conflict-of-interest guidelines that are in place to ensure that government will protect tax- payers on the construction of Olympic facilities? Hon. C. Hansen: I'm sure the member is aware that VANOC is a federally chartered not-for-profit society independent of the provinci al government. Therefore, they do not fall under the conflict-of-interest legislation that we have in place for the province, but they do have in place their own conflict provisions. They have actually gone to the extent of putting in place an ethics adviser within VANOC.

I am very confident, in the case that is in the media today, that they are living up to those conflict-of-interest requirements, because Con- cert Properties has not and will not be bidding on Olympic construction. FUNDING FOR 2010 OLYMPIC GAMES AND ROLE OF AUDITOR GENERAL H. Bains: We're talking about taxpayers owing $600 million. The Minister of Economic Development has trouble getting straight answers as to how taxpayers are being protected. Given these concerns, will the government now agree to give the Auditor General full oversight over Olympic spending? Hon. C.

Hansen: I'm pleased that the hon. member, the critic for the Olympics, asked the identical question

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 459 in estimates in Committee A last night. I will give ex- actly the same answer today as I gave to him on that occasion, which is in Hansard, and that is that the Audi- tor General of British Columbia is an independent offi- cer of this Legislature. He has the authority to review all commitments made by the province of British Co- lumbia to the Olympic Games. He does not need to h a v e d i r e c t i o n f r o m u s t o d o t h a t .

H e h a s t h e p o w e r and the independence to in vestigate any and all as- pects of the commitment that the province has made to the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games. [1430] LEGACY PROJECT AND MOUNT ST. JOSEPH HOSPITAL J. Kwan: Of course, the issue with the Auditor General is around the budgeting, and the watchdogs around the Legislature are not getting more money to do the work that needs to be done. Having said that, I'd like to move on to another issue. Last April the then Minister of Health said un- equivocally that the government had no plans to close Mount St. Joseph Hospital.

In fact, her statement came after the opposition raised the concerns coming from families and patients at the facility. At the time the minister said the opposition was fearmongering. Yet shortly after the election, the Provi- dence health authority released a study entitled Provi- dence Health Care Legacy Planning Projections , which revealed the authority does indeed have plans to close the hospital. The authority currently operates St. Paul's Hospital and Mount St. Joe's.

The report cites: "The goal of the legacy project is to consolidate those two remaining acute care sites onto one site." Does the Minister of Health still stand by his col- league's earlier statement that the government has no plans to see Mount St. Joseph Hospital closed? Hon. G. Abbott: I certainly do stand by my former colleagues. In fact, I sit by them here each and every d a y , a n d I ' m ha p p y t o s t a n d b y t h e m o n t hi s i s s u e a s well. The member quotes from the planning equivalent of the Dead Sea scrolls. This is not only an antiquated document, but also an inaccu rate one.

The hospital in question will not be closed. It is not part of the consid- eration around the legacy proj ect, and I'm glad to reas- sure the member on this point. I look forward to seeing her ability here to take a straight answer to, perhaps, a difficult question. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Kwan: That's very interesting. Maybe the minis- ter should actually tell that answer to Providence. They released a document two months after the election, stating: "The goal of the legacy project is to consolidate these two remaining acute care sites onto one site" — two months after the election.

Who's telling the truth — Providence or the government? Hon. G. Abbott: Or (c)? Has the opposition got it hopelessly muddled? My guess would be on (c), actually — that they have got this hopelessly, hopelessly muddled. The straight answer to the question is that the legacy pro- ject does not involve Mount St. Joe's. It does not. The member should be very happy abou t that instead of try- ing to create issues where there are no issues. TERMS OF SALE OF TERASEN GAS TO KINDER MORGAN C. Evans: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Welcome back, Minister. The business

section of the New York Times ran an

article on August 27 of this year, and it was titled "Memo to the United States: Pay Attention to Canada." The American author interv iewed for his

article Sena- tor Pat Carney on the softwood issue. He wrote: "She wants the Canadian government to begin scrutinizing American investment in Canada. She pointed in par- ticular to the…$6.9 billion acquisition of Terasen, a Canadian natural gas pipeline company, by Kinder Morgan." Then the writer goes on to say: "Memo to American business: Pay attention to th is. It could cause trouble. That goes double for you, Richard Kinder. As a Texan, and president of Enron in the mid-1990's, you are on friendly terms with President Bush. You should whis- per in his ear to settle this thing fast.

It's in everyone's best interest." Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. C. Evans: It's all right. Let them holler. Minister, here's the question. Mr. Speaker: Member, put your questions through to the Chair. [1435] C. Evans: Oh, sorry. Hon. Chair, please put to the Minister of Energy the ques tion: will you ask the B.C. Utilities Commission to put on hold the Terasen deci- sion for 90 days to give Mr. Kinder a chance to talk to Mr. Bush? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm certainly not here to start telling Mr. Kinder who to ta lk to and when to talk about anything.

As far as th e proposal of Terasen Gas, there was a procedural hearing on September 9, where the B.C. Utilities Commission, which is a quasi-judicial body in British Columbia, heard presentations by s t a k e h o l d e r s a s t o w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n i n r e g a r d s t o this proposal. The B.C. Utilities Commission actually decided to have written presentations made, and they have given till October 17 for those folks that actually wish to put forward their yea or nay to make that to the B.C. Utilities Commission.

460 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 We respect the B.C. Utilities Commission in its ability to look after British Columbians in the best interests of British Columbians without political inter- ference. We don't intend to politically interfere with that process with a quasi-judicial body. We expect that they will make the de cision amongst about four other bodies that this proposal would have to go through, including the Canadian government, to make them in the best interest of Canadians and the best interest of British Co lumbians, which they have done over the last four years. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. C. Evans: My supplemental is also for the Minister of Energy. It would appear to me — and, I think, to all British Columbians — that the government actually does have a position. Pat Carney, the senator who ne- gotiated the free trade deal with the United States; the New York Times ; now the President of Mexico and the Prime Minister of Canada all expect that the govern- ment of British Columbia might have an opinion about this sale. The minister sent his staff to the Utilities Commission to say, on purpose, 29 words.

"We have no opinion on hearings." So, minister, you have sent a message. Mr. Speaker: Member, direct your…. C. Evans: Through the hon. Speaker, maybe the minister could please tell us if he doesn't think his statement to the Utilities Commission rings all over North America as a position and a message and an invitation to plunder. Hon. R. Neufeld: Interesting. At least the staff from the Ministry of Energy and Mi nes stayed till the end of the hearing, unlike the tw o members from the NDP caucus who left shortly after saying what they thought should happen.

What we have done in British Columbia is return to a B.C. Utilities Commission that is not interfered with by government. Unfortunately, over the ten years pre- vious to our government, under the government of the member who has asked the question, who was part of government…. His government continually wrote di- rections — secret directions — to the B.C. Utilities Commission about what they should do with decisions made in backrooms by their cronies. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Hon. R. Neufeld: We took that process and changed it, and we put back in the B.C.

Utilities Com- mission the authority to make these decisions on behalf of all British Columbians. We should all be reminded: this is a publicly owned company traded on the stock exchange. Maybe the member doesn't understand "publicly owned." That means that a lot of people across this province own Terasen — shareholders. In fact, pension funds from unions own Terasen. They, at the end of the d a y , w i l l h a v e t h e a u t h o r i t y b y v o t i n g i n e x c e s s o f 7 5 percent whether this sale should go through or not. The shareholders of Terasen will make that decision. [1440] S.

Simpson: It's interesting that the minister talks about the hearing. He would note, if he had attended the hearing, that the only people who spoke opposed to having public hearings were Kinder Morgan and Terasen. Every other British Columbian said: "Let's have hearings." But that's the public interest, not his interest. As people will know, Kinder Morgan has been fined over $5 million for environmental violations. They have faced 44 violations on environmental mat- ters. They are facing $100,000 a day in fines by the U.S. Department of Transportation if they don't deal with these within 120 days.

On Mo nday the Minister of En- vironment said there is nothing for us to worry about on this matter, that they will meet all the environ- mental standards. So my question, considering how poor Kinder Morgan's record is, is to the Premier. He is the author of the five great goals, including the best environ- mental standards in the worl d. Can the Premier please tell me: does he agree that the idea of not paying atten- tion to environmental considerations in this sale is, in fact, meeting his five great goals? Hon. R. Neufeld: We have strict environmental rules in this province.

They are as strong as any rules there are around North America. Whether Kinder Morgan owns Terasen, or whether Terasen continues to own Terasen, those rules and regulations must be adhered to. We take the en vironment seriously, unlike an administration past. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister, take your seat for a second. Members, the courtesy was directed to listening to the question. The courtesy should also be extended to hearing the an- swer. Hon. R. Neufeld: We take seriously our environ- mental concerns here in British Columbia.

We know that the rules and regulations we have in place that are administered by the Oil and Gas Commission, by the Ministry of Environment and by numerous other min- istries are adhered to regardless of the ownership of Terasen. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S. Simpson: Well, the minister has certainly dem- onstrated: anything for a buck, including destroying

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 461 our environment. I'm very disappointed in him and disappointed in the Premier for not thinking this is an important enough issue to comment on. Kinder Morgan has a long and serious track record of environmental violations. The problem we have is that the B.C. Utilities Commi ssion won't look at those matters unless they get special direction from the cabi- net. They just don't do that. We now have the U.S. De- partment of Transportation doing the job and putting Kinder Morgan on notice that they need to clean up their act within 120 days.

My question is to the Attorney General, who has responsibility for the B.C. Utilities Commission in this government. Since the Premier won't deal with the issue, the Minister of Environment won't deal with it, nor will the Minister of Energy, will the Attorney Gen- eral at least hoist this application — d i r e c t i t t o b e hoisted — until the U.S. Department of Transportation finishes their business? If you won't do the investiga- tion, they'll do it for you. Will you hoist it until the U.S. investigation is completed? Hon. R. Neufeld: I want to draw the attention….

I know the member tries to say that we don't have a good environmental record in the province. We have an excellent environmental record in British Columbia, and we continue to move forward with that. You know, contrary to the last administration, who actually ordered the B.C. Utilities Commission to tell B . C . H y d r o t o b u i l d a p i p e l i n e f r o m t h e U . S . t o V a n - couver Island, interestingly enough, to build a gas-fired plant on Vancouver Island and to actually give direc- tion to move land out of the ALR, given by the member for Nelson-Creston when he was Minister of Agricul- ture…..

It's interesting that none of those members opposite have any idea what a quasi-ju dicial body is in British Columbia. We respect that qu asi-judicial body to actu- ally work in the best interests of British Columbians and Canadians — along with the federal Competition Act, the Investment Canada Act, approvals under the Water Utility Act and numerous others — to move this forward. There are lots of pension plans around… Mr. Speaker: Thank you, minister. [1445] Hon. R. Neufeld: …British Columbia that own shares.

I might bring to the attention of the room that the Leader of the Official Opposition owns some shares in Terasen, and I would assume that she's going to be there saying no at that meeting that takes place shortly. N. Macdonald: Terasen Gas serves 880,000 busi- nesses and homes in 125 different communities. Local governments across B.C. are concerned about the sale to Kinder Morgan, and they're concerned that nobody is taking the time to respond to their concerns. My question is to the Minister of Community Ser- vices.

Has she met with local government representa- tives to address their concerns about the sale of Terasen, and what is she doing to help them get the information they need? Hon. R. Neufeld: At UBCM, I met with numerous communities during my m eetings. Actually, I don't recall it being brought up once, and I'm not sure…. I'd have to go back to my correspondence, but I don't be- lieve I've had one letter from a community yet. I think the communities across the province of Brit- ish Columbia understand fully how this works. They understand fully that the B.C.

Utilities Commission will make sure that everything that is done, regardless of what it is, is done in the best interests of British Co- lumbia and the best interests of Canada so we can move this great province forward as we actually see investment, maybe, in this province from others to make sure that we continue on the path that we're on. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. N. Macdonald: The question is for the Minister of Community Services. What she would know, which the Minister of Energy does not know, is that the UBCM passed a resolution.

The resolution was unani- mous, and the resolution st ated that officially the UBCM will be asked to petition the B.C. Utilities Commission for public hearings across the province. The Minister of Community Services knows that, so I'm directing the question to her. The government has the power to make those pub lic hearings happen. This time to the Minister of Community Services: why will she not help local governments get the answers that they're looking for? Why is the government refusing to allow the B.C. Utilities Commission to hold public hearings? Hon. R.

Neufeld: Just a few minutes ago I re- sponded to that question, which said that the B.C. Utili- ties Commission set out a time frame for written sub- missions. That will end on October 17. At that time the B.C. Utilities Commission still has the authority, and in the order that they laid down, to hold oral hearings across the province if they so deem it. Until we see what the B.C. Utilities Commission's decision is on October 17, again, we will respect that quasi-judicial body in moving forward in protecting British Columbians in relation to this proposal by Kinder Morgan. SOFTWOOD LUMBER NEGOTIATIONS M.

Farnworth: Given the importance of the moun- tain pine beetle epidemic in British Columbia to the economy of British Columbia and to the economy of this country; given the fact that a respected Conserva- tive Senator, who helped negotiate the original free trade agreements…. Given the commentary that has come out of the United States; given the opinion, for example, in the New York Times , a very well-respected journal in the United States, about the opportunities to

462 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 link — in the case of the sale and the principles behind the sale — energy and solution to softwood lumber, my question is to the Premier. [1450] Has the Premier considered the linkage between energy and softwood lumber as one option that could be used to help bring a resolution to the softwood lum- ber dispute? Hon. R. Coleman: We are presently in discussions on a pan-Canadian position to go forward to the Americans. There are some very important meetings coming up shortly with regard to that position.

That will drive an agenda that may or may not get us back to the table. We know in discussions with the people on this file, both north and south of the border, that tying something to that today would be counterpro- ductive to the negotiations we wish to undertake, and it would not be successful in the long term for British Columbians. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: These negotiations in various forms have been taking place for more years now than many of us can remember.

We need to be using every tool at our disposal to ensure that the best interests of British Columbians and Canadians are achieved at a negotiat- ing table. So my question would be: has the govern- ment then rejected the linkage of energy to the resolu- tion of the softwood lumber dispute? Hon. R. Coleman: I'd remind the member about the success of the former NDP government with Nanoose Bay and the issues with th e Americans that did not work for British Columbia. I also want to remind the member that this is a na- tional trade file. It is not a provincial trade file.

There- fore we work with the federal government and our colleagues across the province s as we bring something forward. I agree that this has gone on way too long. We want another NAFTA decision today — another one, on top of another one, on top of another one. But if we con- tinue to actually work at this thing in the manner I think we are today, my feeling is that we may have an opportunity in the next 60 days, a window of an oppor- tunity, to do something and be successful.

If that win- dow closes at that point in time, then I'm happy to sit down with the federal government and discuss what other sanctions may be necessary. We also have to do that because we demand that the Americans stay within the rules of the trade boundaries that we expect them to trade with us on. We're not going outside of those and doing sanctions until we have the proper legal remedies available to us within the WTO and other trade agreements so that we can operate properly as Canadians. We're not going outside the rules because some- body thinks we should go outside the rules.

We're go- ing to be the ones that will negotiate in good faith. We're going to be the ones that will be honourable and accept the deals we make, and we'll stand up to and honour the deals we make with the Americans in the future. COMPENSATION FOR SAWMILL WORKERS B. Simpson: Forestry workers all over B.C. have lost their jobs during the last four years, and many are working part-time, specifically because of policy deci- sions made by this government.

In recognition of this reality, when the government brought in the Forestry Revitalization Act it promised that workers who lost their jobs would be entitled to severance pay, and companies would be compensated as well. Today we know that companies have received that compensation, but the government seems to be picking and choosing which workers are entitled to severance pay. To the Minister of Forests: why did the revitaliza- tion strategy not take into consideration that sawmill workers would also lose their jobs and include these workers in the compensation package? Hon. R.

Coleman: I was just at a meeting yesterday in Saskatoon with the Ministers of Forests from across this country. We sat in on a presentation from CIBC World Markets, an expert on world markets with re- gard to forestry, and they said this: there is one jurisdic- tion in North America, one jurisdiction in Canada, that's actually made the tough decisions moving forward to make their forest industry sustainable.

He also told us t h a t t h e f o r e s t i n d u s t r y i n N o r t h A m e r i c a w i l l g o through at least one to three more years of difficult times as changes are made to make it a sustainable in- dustry if governments, co mmunities and industry can think forward on how this is going to look in the future. It's easy to stand here and make some comment with regard to what may or may not have gone on in a p e r i o d o f t i m e . I r e m e m b e r s i t t i n g i n t h i s H o u s e .

I r e - member the announcement in Prince George: 21,000 jobs under the jobs and timber accord. [1455] Not one job was delivered under the jobs and tim- ber accord. We lost thousands and thousands of jobs because the NDP government didn't deliver. We are going to deliver on a forest plan for British Columbians to make it sustainable for the citizens of B.C. long-term. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Simpson: I appreciate the briefing on the minis- ter's meeting, and I appreciate his passion about job loss. That wasn't my question. My question wasn't about history. It was about the current moment.

In this moment this Liberal government has policy that is cre- ating job loss. That is a to ugh choice, and as the Minis- ter of Finance said, it's all about choices. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 463 B. Simpson: The tough choice has been made. What I asked was: why does this government dis- criminate between forest workers on the land base, who are harvesting, and forest workers who work in the sawmills, who are losing their jobs? Why the discrimination? Why are sawmill workers regarded as second-class citizens? And will the minister change the compensation package to address that? Hon. R. Coleman: Different employment environ- ments and different responsibilities under employment and investment with regard to EI in Canada….

Frankly, I've heard too many times, or read too many times, how this member always talks about how this is going to be a terrible thing in the Cariboo and the sunset industry in British Columbia. I'd like him to move away from Chicken Little and "the sky is falling" and even look in his own backyard at the 60-plus jobs and at the tens of millions of dollars t h a t we r e i n ve s t e d in Du nk l e y Lu m b er in y ou r r i d - ing to create new jobs because of the policies of this government with regards to good business practices and good forestry. [End of question period.] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: In this chamber is continued sec- ond reading debate on Bill 12 and in Committee A, for the information of members, the estimates of the Minis- try of Small Business and Revenue. Second Reading of Bills TEACHERS' COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT ACT (continued) A. Dix: I'm pleased to rise and speak to Bill 12. [1500] I was reminded a little bit, in listening to the mem- ber for Nelson-Creston last night, of the words of Thomas Paine many hundreds of years ago — some of the most profound and passionate words ever said about politics, I think, and some of the most insightful.

When he said that perhap s the sentiments…. He was talking about his book Common Sense. He said: "Per- haps the sentiments contai ned in the following pages are not sufficiently fashionable to procure them a gen- eral favour.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it the superficial appearance of being right and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom, but the tumult soon subsides; time makes more con- verts than reason." I was reflecting on the attitude of the current gov- ernment towards education, an attitude that has privi- leged confrontation and lack of respect towards people in education — teachers, students and parents — over the last four years. It's an attitude that has led ministers in this House to rise six times with legislation taking away rights from teachers — six times. This is number six.

I think we need to reflect on the impact of the changes made over that time by this government, not just on teachers but, in pa rticular, on students. I think about it. We know what the big numbers are. The big num- bers from around British Co lumbia are 2,500 teaching positions cut; 113 schools closed ; in particular, cuts to special education teachers, 17.5 percent — almost one in five special education teachers cut; teacher- librarians, 23.4 percent.

I'm go ing to return to that in a moment, because it's a fu ndamental question about how we deal with questions of literacy and education for the future in British Columbia. ESL teachers, so important in my constituency , cut by 20 percent as a direct result of these legi slated measures, which no- tionally were about the government asserting its will in this Legislature over the interests of groups and society — in this case, teachers. You know, in my constituency of Vancouver- Kingsway….

It's a constituen cy I'm very proud to rep- resent, a constituency that represents people who have come here from around the world here and are living together and striving to make a better life for them- selves. In my constituency there are today 1,562 stu- dents learning in classroom s that are so large they would not have been allowed prior to 2002. Think of that. Think of the fact that every serious study of class size says that larger class sizes hurt students.

Think of the fact that many, many students — the largest per- centage of students in British Columbia — who are learning English as a second language are in my con- stituency. Think of the need s of special needs students, and then think of that number — those students who are being shortchanged. We have to remember that those students don't get that opportunity to be in el ementary school twice. This is their opportunity, and it's an opportunity that this government has hurt by its policies, by its vendetta against public school teachers — which has had for victims the interests of students.

The British Columbia Society for Public Education, which is largely a group of parents in Vancouver, did a study over just one year of the impact of the govern- ment's cuts on education in Vancouver. I see my col- league from Vancouver-Quilchena over there. I'm sure he'll be particularly interested in this. [1505] They reported that fu ndraising in Vancouver schools, usually on essential items, was over $600,000 in the 2003-2004 school year. Mostly what was being bought was computer and software equipment.

The number of counsellors fell by 2.6 percent just in that school year, the number of teacher-librarians by 5 per- cent just in that school year. The largest classes, across the board, were in math and science — three classes, including one in my constitu ency, of 36 students in

464 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 math. They discovered that all secondary schools in Vancouver, all of them, charge course fees — the most frequent fees for hospitality foods, French, math and art. [S. Hawkins in the chair.] They discovered wide disparities between schools. One school reported having only three research- standard computers, while another school had 31.

So the impact of the government's measures — dressed up as an attack and a war on teachers as a collective bar- gaining issue, but in fact, a cut to the quality of educa- tion — f e l t b y s t u d e n t s i n V a n c o u v e r h a s b e e n p r o - found. In my riding of Vancouver-Kingsway at Grenfell School, there are rooms that used to be used for storage that are classrooms , because the Minister of Education won't fund a capi tal project to add class- rooms.

At Norquay School in my riding, there is one half-time teacher-librarian, 2.5 days a week, in a school with a high ESL population, with 650 stu- dents in it. Why is this the case? This government took away the right of teachers to negotiate and to protect ratios for teacher-librarians in public schools in British Columbia. I think it's important to reflect, because the gov- ernment and the Premier freq uently talk about the im- portance of literacy in ou r public schools.

They fre- quently wax eloquent on the question, but the fact of the matter is, since the Premie r became Premier, one in four teacher-librarian positions has been lost — one in four. What is the work teacher-librarians do? The work they do is fundamental to literacy. In some households, it's true, parents are in a position to buy books and get lots of books for their children, but the only other place for most children — particularly children in my con- stituency of Vancouver-Kingsway — to get access to books is to borrow them. Us ually, where they have to borrow them is from their school libraries.

We see not only the effects of the loss in resources, the cuts to books. We have libraries in schools in my riding, at Collingwood schools, that are virtually empty of books. The Premier talks about the value of literacy, and yet the libraries are lacking in books, and they're lack- ing in librarians. Teacher-librarians are essential to working with ESL teachers, who have also been cut, to assuring that ESL students have the same opportu- n i t i e s t o s u c c e e d i n l i f e a s a l l o t h e r s t u d e n t s .

I n f a c t , they have cut those programs, in particular, and they've cut them because they have taken from collec- tive agreements the rights of teachers, and they have inserted changes by legislative diktat that have hurt students. When they try and portray this battle, this fight for public education, as a fight of them on the one hand and a union on the other hand, they are wrong. This is about students. My father-in-law was a great man. He was school trustee in New Westminster.

He passed away a few years ago, and when I speak of teacher-librarians, I think that in some ways I'm giving voice to a real pas- sion of his life. He came to this country from India. He taught in Newfoundland. He taught in northern Que- bec. He served as a school trustee. He fought to fill libraries with teachers. He fought to fill libraries with books. That was the drive of his career as a school trus- tee. He believed in it, and sadly, when he passed away…. The new library, in the riding of the hon. member for New Westminster, Queensborough Middle School, is named after him. It's the Vasant Saklikar Li- brary.

I think the government in its effort to drive through legislation, in its ef fort to pick a fight with teachers, has made a seriou s mistake to the memory o f s o m a n y p e o p l e w h o h a v e f o u g h t t o e n s u r e t h a t teacher-librarians play a valued role in our educa- tion system. It's made a serious mistake in targeting its cuts to them and in using those cuts as part of a fight with the BCTF. It's wr ong, what they're doing, and it's shameful. Let me just say this. It's not just the cuts to educa- tion that have had a profound effect.

We in this Legis- lature should be thanking teachers every day for the contribution they make. In th e last four years this gov- ernment slashed day care funding. They slashed in- come assistance rates. [1510] I was meeting with child development workers last week. There are more than 7,000 children and infants between the ages of zero and five on waiting lists for child development, for assistance. The chal- lenges that are coming to our public schools are grow- ing. The government, by it s policies, has contributed to that challenge.

Rather than picking figh ts with teachers, they should be meeting with te achers. We've had Ministers of Education in the last fo ur years…. There's one who is no longer in politics who was the Minister of Educa- tion for three years and never met with the BCTF. I think she met with them once for 15 minutes. Never met with them — can you imagine? Teachers, the most valuable workers in the public sector, contributing in our public schools, and the Minister of Education won't meet with them — yet six pieces of legislation by diktat in here.

They talk to teachers through the television set; they talk to teachers through Hansard. It's a shame. B e f o r e c o m i n g t o t h i s L e g i s l a t u r e , I w o r k e d a s a representative of parents. I worked as the executive director of Canadian Parents for French. I had the op- portunity to meet teachers and visit schools in 40 school districts. I remember going to Hazelton. Hazelton, British Columbia, has a French immersion program. It's the smallest community in Canada with a French immer- sion program. The school — Field elementary in Hazelton — is 40 percent aboriginal.

They wanted French immersion as well. Teachers and parents and students and the community got together and fought for a program, which not only teaches French immer- sion but teaches Gitxsan language and culture. Can you imagine that?

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 465 That's what teachers do in the community. They do remarkable, unusual things to allow students to suc- ceed, to allow students in Hazelton to have the same opportunities as students in the riding of the member for Vancouver-Quilchena and myself. What an ex- traordinary thing. I know a teacher in Quesnel, in the riding of my colleague from Cariboo North. There was a grade four student who was having great difficulty, who was de- fined as a student with special needs, and who wasn't succeeding in school.

They met with the parents, and they decided that maybe French immersion was an option for them. Now, French immersion is a program that starts in kindergarten in Quesnel, at Baker School — a remarkable school in downtown Quesnel. It's very, very difficult to take up a program in grade four, but teachers in that program ha d decided that any student at any age should have that opportunity. This student, two years ago, joined that program.

I met that student recently, and that student, because the teacher took all of the extra time needed to allow that student to succeed, is now succeeding near the top of his class and feels a sense of confidence, of achieve- ment, of self-worth. He's going to do great. Imagine that. And this go vernment views teachers as the enemy. It's a shameful thing. It's counter to all our experience, all of our indi vidual experience in life. We all know the contribution teachers make. It is, I think, shocking.

This summer I attended even ts with students across my riding — students from Windermere and Glad- stone, secondary schools in my riding — on Canada Day and other celebrations throughout the summer. At those events, those students, as they participated in events, were always supported by teachers giving of themselves, giving extra time, giving, giving, giving. And what do they get from this government? What attention do they get from this government? The government won't talk to them. They won't meet with them. They won't speak in the debate. They won't say anything. They give messages to teachers.

They strip their contract by diktat in this Legislature. That's the response of the government. It's not good enough, hon. Speaker. It's not good enough. The position of the Minister of Labour, the position of the Minister of Education…. It's like — we all re- member — the debate in the 1984 federal election. They say they have no option. The system's broken, they say. It's just broken. It just ha ppened out there. It's like an accident they saw in the st reet. They saw it, and they saw that the car is broken. You wouldn't believe, hon. Speaker, that they broke it . Yet they did. They broke the system.

They say they had an option. Well, let's review what they've done. Let's review what they've done over the last few years. Let's review those six pieces of legislation during a period when they weren't meeting with teachers or their representatives. [1515] I should say, before I start down that road, some- thing about that. There's a continuing effort by gov- ernment ministers and their supporters, sometimes by editorialists, to demonize the B.C. Teachers Federation because government ministers and editorialists find it inconvenient that teachers get to vote for their own representatives.

You know, at times, I have found it inconvenient that Phil Hochstein is presiden t of the ICBA. I find that inconvenient, but that does n't stop me from meeting with Mr. Hochstein. That doesn't stop me from meeting with other representatives. It's not my choice who the president or the executive dire ctor of the ICBA is; it's the members of the ICBA. It's not the government's choice who represents teachers; it's teachers. This con- tinued effort to disparage their democratic rights is wrong. We've seen six pieces of legislation.

Let's review the government's attitude — what they've done and their attitude toward teachers. First, as we know, in 2002 they stripped the collective agreement: the class-size provisions, the limits on the number of special needs students in particular classrooms, the ratios for teacher- librarians. Stripped from collective agreements. Not the business of teachers. In other words, working condi- tions don't apply. You can't negotiate working condi- tions, something that everybody does. Members of the Legislative Assembly negotiate working conditions. We have a committee where we negotiate working conditions.

Some of the members of this House are on it. We get to negotiate working con- ditions in the best interests of this place — hopefully, in the public interest as well. We get to do that, but teach- ers don't get to do that. That's where they started. Where do they move on to? This was maybe the most profound insult to teachers, it seems to me. When I went around to schools as executive director of Cana- dian Parents for French during the 2003-2004 period, the decision by ministers an d members on that side of the House to take away the professional status of teachers through their changes to the B.C.

College of Teachers…. Those efforts deni grated teachers as a pro- fession, and they did that wi thout consultation, by leg- islative diktat. It was wrong. They did it at the same time as they were giving self-regulating status to other professions — to car dealers and other people in soci- e t y . T h e y w e r e t a k i n g i t away from teachers, without consultation. Again, the number three shot, and it continues on to this day: legislation after legislation after legislation because somebody has told them that it is in their po- litical interests to attack the B.C. Teachers Federation.

It seems to me that the government is on a profoundly wrong path in this regard. I wanted to just briefly say about this that we're in now…. The government says that the system is broken, that it can't be fixed, that they have to legislate. As we noted, they've said, essentially, to teachers that you can't negotiate working conditions, you can't negotiate salary. And then they ap p e a r s h o c k e d . I t ' s l i k e Casa- blanca. They're shocked that there's gambling going on in here. They're shocked that people can't come to an agreement.

466 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i t w o u l d b e i m p o s s i b l y n a ï v e , and I don't think the government's impossibly naïve, so it must be deliberate. They've invented collective bar- gaining by Franz Kafka in this discussion. They have said to teachers: "You can't negotiate anything, but you're being unreasonable by not negotiating." That's their position. Hon. Speaker, it's worse than that, of course. We all know that in the 1990s there were agreements negoti- ated between government and teachers.

We also know that in those agreements, teac hers made real sacrifices to improve the quality of education, real sacrifices to reduce class size. They were courageous decisions by the leadership of the Teachers Federation of the day — courageous decisions that they made. There were deals between government and between government and teachers and their representatives.

When this government came to this House by legis- lative diktat and stripped away those agreements and then went on to demean the professionalism of teach- ers, I think they demean the role of government in this province. [1520] It seems to me that th e government forgets some- thing. Sometimes we all forget it. I think all parties for- get it sometimes. We value, I think, the force of law too much, our ability to pass legislation too much. All par- ties pass a lot of legislation.

The NDP in office passed, I think, in the 1990s — the member for Nelson-Creston was here; I was here for some of that time — almost 500 bills. This government has passed hundreds of bills. Passing bills is, in a technical sense, relatively easy. Somebody writes the bill. It doesn't take very long. This is a very short bill. Someone writes the bill, you bring it in the House, you have a majority, you ram it through and it's passed.

Compared to other actions you can take, like mobilizing people for genuine action, build- ing community support, initiating a successful pro- gram or negotiating a collective agreement — even spending money requires the collection of taxes and decisions about spending money — passing laws is easy. This government has done it six times to teachers, six times taking away their rights. Passing laws is easy, but it's not the easy road to go, it seems to me. In fact, it's not the right road to go. Negotiating collective agreements can be a long and arduous process. Anyone who has been involved in it knows it. The B.C.

Teachers Federation knows it. The members of the government know it. It requires patience. It requires determination. It requires imagina- tion. It sometimes requires courage. However, if you're successful, if people come into a room and come to a compromi se, to an agreement that they can both walk out of, then everybody…. It doesn't just have the impact, it seems to me, of having a good deal and a nice press conference and everything else. It forces everybody in the system to have responsibility because everybody in the system had a role in the deci- sions that were made.

Too often, in the case of health workers and in the case of teachers, this government has taken the easy road. It's imposed a solution that takes away people's dignity and their role. It doesn't allow teachers or hos- pital workers or nurses or whoever it might be the slightest ownership in the result. It's not surprising that this leaves people — teachers, nurses, hospital workers, ordinary people in this province — frustrated and an- gry about their government. Whatever one might think about the different posi- tions taken by parties in this dispute or any other dis- pute, this is a negative result.

What it says to me is that these disputes, for this government, aren't about health care or education. They're about power games. This government has been taught that they needed to pick an enemy and fight against an enemy. In this case, it's going to be teachers and their representatives, and they're going to drive it through. But it's a terrible mistake, because teachers do not approach this issue the way the Premier of this prov- ince approaches politics. It is not a win-or-lose proposi- tion. They work in the classroom. This is their life. This is what they've trained for. This is their passion.

This isn't a game. For the Premier, it's a game. Six days before the elec- tion he invents some sort of issue involving teachers. He pretends they're going to go on strike in the month of June. He pretends it. He creates a contrived issue to cre- ate division to drive his point home. That's how he treats education. He treats it as a contrived game. Well, teachers don't feel that way. Students don't feel that way. The parents that I represent don't feel that way. They feel passionately about education. They know it's a day-to-day task that everybody has to work hard at to succeed.

Politicians like the Premier forget that laws are blunt instruments. What laws are best at doing is to set minimum standards, the minimum standards for envi- ronmental or labour standards. The government has some lessons to learn in that regard, I might say. But that's what they do. But wh en laws are imposed solu- tions on individuals — and we've seen this on every kind of issue imaginable, from gun control to legislated solutions to collective agre ements…. When they im- pose solutions on people, the minimum becomes the maximum.

The goodwill necessary to really perform well on the job, to go the extra mile, is gone. Everyone ends up sticking to the letter of the law — and in edu- cation, that is no good as a solution. [1525] When it comes to education, surely what we want — what teachers want, what parents want, what stu- dents want — is more than the minimum. We want our classrooms to be palaces of learning. We need it to compete in a modern society.

We need them to be pal- aces of learning, and this government has taken away those palaces brick by brick — larger class sizes, get- ting rid of ESL teachers, getting rid of teacher- librarians, not filling libraries with books. This is what they've done — six pieces of legislation attacking

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 467 teachers. They've decided th at the minimum should be the maximum. People on this side of the House, parents and teachers in B.C. — we want more than that. We want smaller class sizes. We want libraries filled with books. We want libraries filled with teacher-librarians. We think it's a shame that, because of government action, there's a librarian in Norquay School only two days a week for 650 students. We say that's a shame. We say that's not good enough. The government responds with legislation attacking teachers.

Well, for my part, I think that there's a better way, that the government still has time to come back from the brink. The government still has the time — and the fact-finder's report shows that — to listen to teachers, to respect teachers and to sit down and negotiate with teachers. There is nothing inevitable about this legisla- tion. The government created the conditions of it. They control one side of the bargaining table. They are not an honest broker.

They've go t to take their share of responsibility and go back to the table and negotiate an agreement in the best interest s of parents, of students, of teachers — of all of us in British Columbia. That's what they need to do. If they do that…. Sometimes good policy and good politics are the same thing, it seems to me. I think the Premier's wrong. I don't think he gets much benefit from attacking teachers and st udents. He'll find that if he treats teachers with respect, teachers live a life of respect. They teach respect every day.

If they receive respect from a Minister of Education and a Premier, they will give it back in spades in return. That's what we need in th is discussion. That's what we need in this debate. We need a government that finally treats people working in education with respect, because the work they do together is the most impor- tant work we can do. If for no other reason…. They need to treat teachers with respect for the future. When I worked at Canadian Parents for French, we did numerous reports on te acher shortages.

The gov- ernment of British Columbia, rather than engaging in needless confrontation with teachers, should be work- ing with teachers to promote teaching as a profession. There are numerous areas of teaching today, in language education and sciences, where there's a shortage. Ten years from now there'll be a shortage. What message is the government sending to young people when they show such disrespect to teachers? What message are they giving them? They're giving them a message that teaching isn't a valuable profes- sion. That's their message.

Well, I have a different message for them and for all British Columbians. We need to rally around the teach- ing profession, around teaching — some of the most v a l u a b l e w o r k a n y o n e c a n d o i n s o c i e t y . W e n e e d t o rally around that so that we have teachers who are supported now and so that future teachers, young people today, see teaching as a profession that is wor- thy of their effort and interest, that is valued by their society, their government, their Legislature, parents — valued by all of us. That's what we need in this debate.

I want to say in conclusion that there is always an alternative. This is a government that has been on one track for so long that it has lost its way on this ques- tion. There's nothing but spin now. They talk about 35 meetings in this discussion — 35 meetings. Well, when there's nothing on the table from one side, it might as well be 750 meetings. The government has to come to the table. They are party to this discussion. They have to come, meet and talk to teachers. They have the power in their hands to have a real solution to this problem — one that benefits students, one that im- proves public education.

I know that, between teachers and the government, we can come to that solution. I urge them to withdraw this legislation, to go and meet with teachers, to spend a s l o n g a s i t t a k e s t o c o m e t o a n a g r e e m e n t , b e c a u s e our children deserve it, because teachers deserve it and because British Columbia's society needs it. [1530] B. Ralston: I rise to speak in opposition to Bill 12. Sometimes members on the opposite side and many of us here, as well, look to the private sector for assistance in solving issues of public policy.

While I wouldn't recommend that on every occasion, in this particular case I do have an analogy. I don't pretend that the pro- duction of cars is anywhere near as important to us as w h a t t e a c h e r s d o i n s c h o o l s , b u t t h e r e c e n t F o r d C a n - ada negotiations are perhaps a lesson for the govern- ment in how to conduct an d run a proper collective bargaining process. In the recent discussions, Ford Canada was tar- geted by Canadian Auto Workers as the first auto company up to bat in the negotiations.

They were led by their chief spokesman Buzz Hargrove, who — as members will know and perhaps recognize, I'm sure — is no slouch when it comes to the process of collective bargaining and is recognized nationally as a very capa- ble negotiator of all sorts of collective agreements. But what happened there was that the company negotiator, Ford's Stacey Allerton Firth, managed to pull off the negotiations, settle the agreement within five days and was praised by Mr. Hargrove as the best negotiator that the company had ever put out. There was a lengthy interview with her in the busi- ness

section of Globe and Mail, and what she said is that she tried to set a tone which aimed for collaboration rather than confrontation. Issues were talked out, rather than fought out, in an atmosphere of mutual respect. She was interviewed further and was asked to give some maxims or tips on how to achieve these kinds of results in collective bargaining. What she said, and I'll quote some of them because I think they may be of assistance….

These are the kind of analogies from the private sector that perhaps the government or the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Finance or Minister of Education, who give these directions to their nego- tiators, might wish to consider. She said: "Be honest. It's tough to reach a deal if there is a hidden agenda or one side doesn't have all the facts."

468 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 That's a company negoti ator for a multinational company in a very competitive industry, talking about how to conduct collective bargaining. I commend that to the members opposite in considering how to con- duct negotiations in the future. She goes on to say: "Re- spect the other side. They represent 12,000 people, and that's the heart of our business." Again, a chief negotiator for a multinational auto- mobile firm in a very competitive global industry is talking about how to conduct collective bargaining — and very successfully.

She also says: "Train your team. Teach active listening skills to make sure everyone un- derstands what the other side is saying." So rather than embarking on confrontation with a predetermined agenda, perhaps the government, I would submit, ought to consider the words of Stacey Allerton Firth at Ford Canada as a model of how to conduct negotiations, because those seem to me to be very helpful hints that the government thus far has not followed. W h e n w e t u r n t o t h e n e g o t i a t i o n p r o c e s s i t d o e s appear, I would suggest, that the government has a predetermined agenda.

Contrary to what Ms. Allerton Firth says and her caution that it's tough to reach a deal if there is a hidden agenda, I would submit that it's at least partially hidden and has been hidden for some time. But it's becoming very apparent with the intro- duction of this legislation in this session of the Legisla- ture. [1535] The report of the fact-finder was received on Fri- day, September 30 — just past. The legislation that we're considering, the Teachers' Collective Agreement Act — perhaps a misnomer — was introduced on Monday. On Tuesday — that's two days ago — a bar- rage of advertising commenced in the media.

It would seem that the report from Mr. Connolly, the Associate Deputy Minister of Labour, was given very little if any consideration, since the legislation was introduced within two days and the time horizon for placing the ads was on the same day — Friday. So one would tend to question, and I would subm it with good reason, the sincerity of the government in requesting a report from a fact-finder and then not proposing to act on it in any way. It was significant, as we ll, that the advertisements that were placed — and most people in public life know something about advertisements from their own campaign….

The Minister of Finance, when confronted by very simple questions about the cost of those ads, did not answer those questions here in this House. The Minister of Finance is new to her role but has some considerable experience in the past in business as a director, which involves a fiduciary duty, and as a chair of the board of a large public organization. Fidu- ciary duty requires that you shepherd and treat with respect the finances of the province. Given that she's the Minister of Finance, it's her solemn obligation and duty to oversee the spending of money on behalf of taxpayers of this province.

She was asked the questi on: "How much did these ads cost?" There are really two ways of answering that question. One could be, "I don't know," which would suggest that if she didn't know, she ought to have known. Perhaps in her role as a new Minister of Fi- nance she didn't know enough to ask that question of her staff. Or secondly, she did know and chose not to reveal that to the Legislature, given that that might be politically embarrassing to the other side of the House and therefore was a strategy to be avoided.

To simply say, somewhat disingenuously, that the matter will come forward in public accounts nine months from now…. While it's factually true, it really evades the important question of her responsibilities as Minister of Finance to simply assure the public that she knows what's going on in her own ministry.

I in par- ticular was very disappointed by that answer, and I'm sure many people in British Columbia were very dis- appointed by that answer, given that this appears to be a pre-orchestrated campaign coincident with the re- ceiving of the fact-finder's report and launching straight into legislation without any time to explore the opportunities that the fact-finder's report opened up.

A s t h e m e m b e r f o r M a l a h a t – J u a n d e F u c a p o i n t e d out, the fact-finder's report did offer some possibilities for consideration by the minister in giving his direc- tions to his negotiators, and let's not be disingenuous about this. The negotiations, although nominally con- ducted by a public body on behalf of the government, are directed by the government and by the relevant ministers in question, I would submit. It's simply a legal fiction to suggest otherwise.

When we're talking about negotiations, the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Education certainly have the power and the obligation to direct the negotiations in a manner that they choose. Indeed, the Minister of Labour is handling the file and is aware of the steps taken in the negotiations along the way and has indeed held forth here in this House about steps that were taken in this process. So he's acutely aware of the proc- ess. But it seems to me that within the fact-finder's re- port, there was a possibility and there remains a possi- bility that the government may choose to explore.

What the report says on page 2 is that the BCTF — that's the representatives of the teachers — also ex- pressed an interest in exploring options for entering into dialogue with governme nt directly to discuss the public policy issues relating to learning conditions and, in particular, class-size levels, composition of all classes, the number of sp ecial needs children in any one class, a system of guarantees that the levels and the conditions established by the legislation are adhered to and remedies in the event that there are breaches of the established policy. [1540] The BCTF articulated a pr ocess that is parallel to the collective bargaining process with different partici- pants, government and BCTF, but linked to and con- cluded at the same time as a collective bargaining framework.

Given that the legislation…. I'll get to the

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 469 rather sorry legislative history in the 2002-2003 era. Given that those items are no longer part of the collec- tive bargaining processes, by virtue of the actions of the government in that period, it still remains, in my sub- mission, a creative solution to the dilemma that's posed to the BCTF — which the member for Vancouver- Kingsway described as Kafkaesque bargaining, where you can't negotiate wages and you can't negotiate working conditions, but you're expected to meet and resolve a collective agreement.

This opportunity remains open and was, in my view, an opportunity that could be seized upon by the government to reopen negotiations, rather than initiate legislative action to extend the collective agreement without any further discussion. It is recognized very clearly by the B.C. Court of Appeal — lest the government's public argument be accepted — that what goes on in the classroom — the class size, the number of children in a classroom, the composition of that class, whether there be special needs children or children wh o are learning English as a second language….

All of that is properly described as working conditions or a condition of the employ- ment relationship. Indeed, in a decision by the B.C. Court of Appeal, Mr. Justice Lambert of the Court of Appeal confirmed that. I'm quoting from the decision: It seems to me that it is significant that the subject of class sizes was negotiated in collective bargaining between teachers and school boards before the 2002 legislation and was clearly, in the past, regarded by the parties as a term or condition of employment.

The fact that the sub- ject of class sizes can no longer be negotiated, nor have any place in the collective agreement of the parties, does not make the subject any less a term or condition that af- fects the employment relationship. "So I" — states Mr. Justice Lambert of our Court of Appeal — "regard class size and aggregate class sizes as a significant part of the employment relationship." I understand that the government applied for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada, and that was denied. That's the law of this province.

The Court of Appeal has recognized that, notwithstanding what happened in 2002 and 2003 of stripping those matters from the collective agreement, they remain, in the view of Mr. Justice Lambert, a si gnificant part of the em- ployment relationship. If the government wants to follow the suggestion or the opening provided by Mr . Connolly, then there's a process recommended and an opportunity to begin that negotiation, which the government has — by the introduction of this bill — apparently rejected. But it's not too late.

The government could have a change of heart, as the member for Vancouver-Kingsway has pointed out. The government perhaps should have a change of heart, in the view of the members on this side. The other thing that Mr. Connolly pointed out is that it was drawn to his attention by representatives of teachers…. I quote from page 3 of his report. This is something, I would take it, that wasn't considered by the government, given the time from which the report arrived on the minister's desk and the legislation was introduced.

The report also goes on to say: "The BCTF went on to add that teacher morale was very low and that the attitude towards and relationships with gov- ernment and the employers co uld worsen if they are further subjected to legislation." The government had that report. This is a respected senior public official who's preparing a briefing for the minister. This is not a partisan document. That infor- mation was before it when it made this decision. Not- withstanding what I would call a warning in that document and notwithstanding the opening that's pro- vided by Mr.

Connolly in that document, the govern- ment has chosen to introduce this particular legislation. [1545] In the introduction to th e bill the minister said, "I don't expect to hear much about the last decade and a half, about the history of teacher bargaining," suggest- ing perhaps that there was so mething over on this side of the House to be apologized for or to be avoided. I would say that I don't think that's the case at all. It is useful to look at the history of collective bar- gaining.

The right to strike for teachers was introduced in 1987 by that well-known left-wing socialist Bill Vander Zalm, the former Prem ier of this province. The invention of the right to strike or the creation of the right to strike was introduced into law by the govern- m e n t o f M r . V a n d e r Z a l m , s o i t ' s n o t a q u e s t i o n o f i t occurring in the 1990s under some nefarious plot by the New Democratic Party. That was introduced by Mr. Vander Zalm. I think that 's important to bear in mind.

It was, quite properly, the culmination of a long campaign and was recognized by the government of the day as a legitimate public policy alternative. That's why, presumably, it was introduced at that time. The member for Nelson-Creston also talked a little bit about the history of the transition to a provincewide agreement, which took plac e in the period between 1994 and 1996. That was a very challenging period, because previously teacher bargaining took place lo- cally at the school district level. The decision was made to create one provincewide agreement.

That was un- derstandably a very difficult endeavour, in the sense of bringing a number of competing agreements with dif- ferent terms and conditions and wages into one master agreement for the entire province. In 1996, contrary to what the minister has sug- gested, teachers and trustees voted in favour of that agreement. So in 1996 there was a negotiation, and there was a vote by the teachers and trustees in favour.

There were, however, some political complications and resistance — from the Surrey school board in particu- lar, I think — which resulted, as the election ap- proached in 1996, in the re quirement to avoid a strike during the election period, which I think all members would agree would not be entirely appropriate. Legis- lation was introduced at that time, but only for that reason. I think it's important to recognize that there was an agreement bargained in that time. In 1998 there was an agreement negotiated directly between the government and the B.C. Teachers Federa-

470 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 tion, so a second agreem ent was bargained. There were, as the member for Vancouver-Kingsway has noted, considerable sacrifices made by the teachers union in agreeing to certain provisions — in particular, some class-size language and, in addition, some agreement to forgo wage increases for a commitment by the government to hire more teachers in certain parts of the province. However, what happened was that the school trustees would not support the agree- ment, and accordingly, the joint agreement by the gov- ernment and the BCTF wasn't supported.

In my view, the minister blurs or telescopes this history of the previous agreements in order to avoid what is the really central change in the relationship between the government and teachers, which took place in 2002, after the present government came to power in 2001. At that point language concerning class size, including the language governing the inclusion of students with special needs, was simply stripped out of the contract.

The government imposed a salary in- crease of 2.5 but funded it only for the first year, so that school boards were left to fund an increase which was imposed and then downloaded to school districts, which resulted in a number of very tough decisions having to be made by school districts. Those weren't decisions that the school districts undertook voluntarily. Those were decisions that the school districts were obliged to take and bitterly com- plained about.

Indeed, in 2003 the then Surrey school trustee and now member for Langley, in dealing with the impact of this legislation upon the Surrey school district — the biggest school district in the province in terms of the number of students — said: "It seems like such an obvious discriminat ion against Surrey, and yet we don't seem to be able to make that clear at the pro- vincial level. It feels like a betrayal. This will hit pretty much every area of our employee groups, including administration. " [1550] Of course, that was then, and this is now. The member for Langley has changed her views, no doubt.

The impact upon Surrey in that period was signifi- cant. In their discussion about school funding, mem- bers opposite sometimes like to point out that the total number of students enrolle d in the province has de- clined. In Surrey, which is one of the fastest-growing cities in the province, the number of students has not declined. However, the number of teachers has de- clined in response to the cuts. Between September 30, 2001, and September 30, 2003, student enrolment in- creased 3 percent — approximately 1,144 students more — and the number of teachers decreased by 141.

There's an 18-percent decline in the number of teacher- librarians, a 19-percent decline in the number of special ed teachers and a 16.4-percent decline in the number of ESL teachers. The impact of those cuts was absorbed by the school district in Surrey in a way that was not the best, in my view and the view of members on this side, for students in Surrey. Unfortunately, this government has chosen confrontation as its first option, rather than ne- gotiation. The words of Ms.

Allerton Firth are apposite here: "If you have a hidden agenda and you don't give the other side all the facts, you're not going to be able to successfully negotiate a collective agreement." So the system may be br oken, in the view of the Minister of Labour, but that's a judgment that he has come to without making the necessary effort to reach a collective agreement. The preparation for collective bargaining is intense, and what Ms. Allerton Firth also says is that it's sometimes necessary to meet people casually before collective bargaining begins.

A number of meetings were scheduled between the Premier and the representatives of the B.C. Teachers Federation over the summer , and I gather that those meetings did not take place. If that kind of message is sent from the highest level to the bargaining process, then it seems predestined or doomed to failure. It's perhaps no surprise that we have ended up in this par- ticular place. When one looks at the report that was tabled by Mr. Wright, it would seem that the plans of the gov- ernment have been set by the Wright report.

The Wright report was a report recommended by a com- missioner, Don Wright, to look at the collective bar- gaining system for teacher contracts in British Colum- bia. Mr. Wright received representations from the em- ployers bargaining association, the BCTF and the school trustees, and made a series of recommendations. All of the recommendations that he accepted were those advanced by the empl oyer and the government, and none advanced by the union. This would, in my judgment, not augur terribly well for success if his rec- ommendations were to be implemented. Significantly, what Mr.

Wright is recommending as a dispute settlement mechanism is what's called "final- offer selection." Final-offer selection is a technique…. I would expect and anticipate that the government will impose the recommendations of the Wright report after they return and after there's an appearance of the pas- sage of time and a consultation.

But in my judgment the result is predetermined, and it is a course of action which, if it's followed, will result in the imposition of final-offer selection. [1555] Final-offer selection is a very drastic labour rela- tions remedy which obliges an arbitrator charged with that jurisdiction to choose between one side's final offer or the other's, exactly as the name suggests. It's re- garded as a drastic remedy which obliges the parties to consider their position and not move forward with a final offer unless they've carefully considered all alter- natives and can live with it.

However, although it's been around as an option for a number of years, it's very rarely been incorpo- rated in any collective agreem ents. That's for a number of reasons, but particularly, it's the inflexible nature of that particular option. A very knowledgable and wise labour lawyer, Paul Weiler, who was the chair of the first Labour Relations Board of this province and is now a professor at Har- vard, wrote in a book about final-offer selection. What

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2005 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 471 he said about final-offer selection is the following, and I'm reading a passage from his book: The fact of human life, let alone the world of industrial relations, is that we do not always do what we are pro- grammed to do. There will be deadlocks, which will re- quire selection of either one or the other's final offer.

There will be cases in which either of these agreements would be unworkable, a situation which could prove es- pecially disastrous for the essential public employer, be- cause, unlike the small newspaper I mentioned, the gov- ernment cannot go out of business. He suggested that if there is to be a dispute set- tlement mechanism, a rang e of alternatives ought to be considered. He's talking about a range of col- lective bargaining options.

He's not talking about legislation which simply strips the teachers of the right to bargain, extends their contract on the same terms for another nine months and obliges them to forgo any wage increase until such time as bargain- ing begins. No doubt the minister is sincere in his view that the process here is broken, but the reason that it's broken is because the government has resolutely refused to change its beha viour and come to the ta- ble and negotiate a collective agreement. It is still possible.

I note with some optimism that apparently the minister is going to meet with representatives of the Teachers Federation, if my information is correct. Let's hope that bargaining can resume and that this bill can be lifted. At this point, though, it's clear that this legislation, as the only option, is th e wrong option. Therefore, that's why we on this side of the House speak strongly against it. D. Chudnovsky: I a m h o n o u r e d t o s t a n d i n t h i s House to speak against this legislation.

Madam Speaker, I have made my professional life in teaching for more than 30 years, so you'll forgive me if I'm a bit emotional about this issue. My feelings are strong, and they come out of my experience in teaching. I have, over 30 years, ta ught at the nursery school level and worked in elem entary schools and high schools and taught at the university level. I've been a teacher in British Columbia, in Ontario and in England.

Over 30 years of teaching, as rough as things have got- ten and as difficult as the situation has gotten and as challenging as the issues we faced have gotten, I have never for one minute regretted choosing teaching for my career. [1600] As a teacher over these many years, I have had the enormous privilege of working with thousands of young people. I'm going to talk about that in the next few minutes, but I also want to say that over those years, I have sat on committees in schools and worked o

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1005pm-01
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1005pm 01
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	96745add096c4a8dd57affcbc727855fc678c904

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