Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 18A (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-18a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 22 March, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees ... MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Fin ance. HON. VIC SCHR OEDER (R ossmere): Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I have a statement I would like to make to the House. Mr .

Speaker, on Friday, March 19 th, the Fed eral Governme nt di stributed copies of the Fiscal Arrangeme nts Legislation which it will present for second reading in the House of Com mons early this week.

The most im portant provisions of the new legisla tion are: fi rst of all, replacement of the current 10 - province national average form ula for calcula ting equal ization payments with a new formula which uses the average taxing capacities of only five of the 10 provinces as the standard for determining payments; and second ly, the elimi nation of the so-call ed revenue guarantee component from federal establ ished pro grams financing payments for health care and post secondary education.

The EPF cutback was consis tent with the announce ment which the Federal Mi nister of Fin ance made in his Budge t in November. The equalization fo rmula change, however, represented a departure from the November Budget proposal. In the Budget the Fed eral Government had suggested using a sing le pro vince, Ontario, has the standard for calcula ting equal ization and it wasn't until early February at the Fir st Mi nisters' Conference on the Economy that Ottawa indicated it might be prepared to move away from that position.

However, its intention to introduce leg isla tion to provide for a five-province standard was not con fir med until Frida y. Simi larly, it wasn't until Frida y that we received confirmation that the federal leg isla tion would contain provisions to authorize certain special measures to assist our province and some others. Fir stly, a transitional equal ization adjustme nt payment for the first three years of the new arrange ments and, secondly, population recovery adjust ment payments which represent cancellation of cer tain prior year equal ization adjustme nts arising out of the 19 81 census fig ures.

While we comme nd the Federal Go verment for the adjustments, our calcula tions indi cate that Manitoba sti ll faces the large st loss in relative terms of any province over the next five years. We now estimate that compared to an extension of the present arran gements, the cutbacks for Manitoba will total 62.9 mill ion in 1 982-83; 12 2.3 milli on in 19 83-84; 17 2.4 mil li on in 19 84-85; 223.1 mill ion in 19 85-86; and 248.6 mil lio n in 19 86-87; for a total over the five-year period of $828.3 milli on.

These figur es exclude the effect of 667 so-called income tax offsets resulting from the tax changes introduced in the November Budg et. The net fig ure for Manitoba for the same fiv e-year period, taking tax offsets into account, is $719 .3 mil li on. On the basis of that net figur e, we sti ll face a fiv e-year loss equivalent to about $2,800 for an aver age family of four. While this is down from the 3,600 orig inally forecast, it is sti ll more than double the national average reduction of $1,2 00 and well ahead of the province with the next largest loss, Quebec, at $2,300.00.

Estima tes for all provinces are in clude d in a backgr ound paper which I have tabled along with the statem ent I am making. It is imp ortant to emphasize that these estim ates take into accoun t the transitional equal ization adj ustment payments provided for in the federal legisla tion. As Mr . MacEachen indi cated in his statement in Winnipeg on Saturday, these adj ustments are now estimated to total 16 5 milli on for Manitoba over the next three years; 82 mil li on in 19 82-83; 56 milli on in 19 83-84; and 27 mil li on in 19 84-85.

Those figur es are substant ial and welcome, but it must be remembered that they are as large as they are because the basic payments onto which they are being added are com paratively low. For example, the Federal Government is now projecting our 19 82-83 equal ization entitle ment includ ing the transitional adjustment at $431 mill ion. However, without the $82 milli on transitional adjustment payment, our basic entitlem ent under the five-province standard form ula would be about $349 mill ion.

That figur e can be compared to the most recent estim ate of our entitle ment for the current year '81-82 under the present system of $392 milli on and the most recent estimate of our entitlement for '82-83 under the present system of $452 mill ion. Over the last few weeks our government has indi cated to the Government of Canada that while we prefer the five province standard to the sin gle prov ince Ontario standard as a basis for calcula ting equal ization, we felt neither was consistent with the princi ple of equal ization, which is to become a permanent part of the Canadian Cons titution.

In our view, the form ula which presently comes closest to that principle is the full ten-province national average fo rmula which is now in effect and we emphasize strong ly that our fi rst preference was to see that form ula continued. I indica ted to the House on Friday that there was some possibili ty that I might meet over the weekend with the Federal Mi nister of Finance when he was in Winnipeg. Mr . Mac Eachen's

schedule did not permit such a meeting, but it now appears as if we will be able to arrange a meeting in Ottawa in the near future. At that meeting I intend to urge the Federal Mi nister once again to modif y his legisla tive proposals in order to ensure that Manito bans receive equitable treat ment. I remain optim istic that he will gi ve favourable consideration to our position. I will keep the mem bers informed of further developm ents in the negotiatio ns. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Moun tain.

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): I thank the Mi nister for his statement and for mak ing this information availa ble to the House. It is useful for us, of course, to have at last so me accurate information because it now appears evident that the cutbacks as li sted in the information in the statement just made by the Mi nister are indica ted to be in the range of $63 mil lio n,

whereas just last week the Fir st Mi nister was saying that they would be at least $10 0 mill ion. It is im possible though to com ment on a situation as complicated as this without having an opportunity for study.

I can only say that I think it's unfortunate that the Federal Mi nister of Finance di dn't see fit to meet with the Manitoba Mi nister of Fi nance over the weekend to dis cuss an issue as im portant as thi s, and in keeping with the government's stated intention to have better relations with the Federal Government, it seems that they are in fact not making great prog ress in that approach and that although they in a statement indi cate there has in fact been a cutback.

I note that the Federal Mi nister of Finance is quoted as saying that indeed there is no cutback at all and that funding is really being increased. I sim ply urge the Mi nister, Mr. Speaker, to take a rather tough negotiating stance with the Federal Governm ent to try and see that Mani toba is not treated in a way that no other province is being treated. It is evident from this information that Manitoba is being treated more harshly than any other province and I think that Mi nister and his government are going to have to take a very tough stance if they hope to protect the interests of Manit obans. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Energy and Min es. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table nine copies of the Comm ission of In quir y into surface ri ghts in Manitoba. I am just gi v ing nine copies out; thi s is a xerox copy and in the interests of economy, I'm just going to table nine copies. If there are mem bers who wish additio nal copies they can contact my office. MR. SPEAK ER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bill s INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions I dir ect the attention of honourable mem bers to the galle ry where we have three school groups. We have 15 students of Gr ade 9 standing of the Ken Seaford Ju nior High School under the dir ection of Mrs. Roberta Carrns. The school is in the consti tuency of the Honourable Mem ber for Kil donan. We also have 25 students of Gr ades 5 and 6 stand ing of the lnkster School. These students are under the dir ection of Mrs. Philli ps and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mi nister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs.

There are 49 students, Gr ade 9 standing of the Mur doch MacKa y Collegi ate. These students are under the dir ection of Mr. Ptashynsky and the school is in the const ituency of the Honourable Min ister of Energy and Min es. 668 On behalf of all the mem bers, I welcome here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHE RMAN (Fort Garry): Mr .

Speaker, my question is to the Hon ourable Fir st Min ister and I would ask him, Sir, whether in view of the govern ment's vocal and highly critical objections to increases in the personal care per di em while they were in Opposition, can the Fi rst Mi nister advise this House whether the new 60 cent inc rease in daily personal care fees announced ot the weekend conforms to his governm ent's posturing of the past four years and to its im plie d election promise to elderly Manito bans? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr .

Speaker, I'd like to think this happens to be something that I have the responsibil ity for so I'll endeavour to answer it and I would like to thank the Min ister to gi ve me the occasion to answer this because it could be mi slead ing the way it appeared in the newspaper. According to the poli cy that we had before, the cost was 10 . 75 on December 31, 19 81 ; automa tically it would have been 11. 25 on January 6, and 11. 75 on April 1, it is now 11 .35. It went from 11 .35 in January for that added three months. It was 10 .7 5 and I think the im portant thing is the percentage of di sposable income.

It is now 28.09, had we kept on with the poli cy without changing the leg islation or rescinding the Or der-in-Coun cil, they would have retained 26.4 per cent instead of 28.9 percent. So, Mr . Chai rman, it is based on the estim ate of cost-of -l iving increase and consu mer price index. As added information to my friend that's so interested, under their polic y they would have retained $1 27.90 and they are retaining $1 40.04. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHE RM AN: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Hon ourable Mi nister of Health, I wonder if the Mi nister can advise whether this decision will remain in effect after April 1, or whether Cabin et will reverse this deci sion within the next few days as was the case with his fir st decision at the 1 st of Januar y. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. MR. DESJARD IN S: Mr. Speaker, if we feel that we've made a mi stake, we'll reverse the decision. We're not too proud to admit when we're wrong. MR. SHERMAN: A fur ther supple mentary, Mr . Spreaker.

I would ask the Honourable Mi nister of Health whether this decision represents a conc lusion to the study that he said he was carrying out to exam ine all aspects of the application of the personal care per diem, and the staged or phased method that was introduced by the previous government and has, I -

22 March, 19 82 migh t say, been impl emented by a numb er of governments with univeral personal care programs in this country that provided for regular increases, dove tail ing with pension increases or whether this is just an interim decision and he is sti ll pursuing that study? MR. DES JARDINS: Mr . Chai rman, we're con tinually studying our polici es.

I thi nk I can say without doub t that there will be regular increases and the time to increase, I should not say regular, it won't be any policy like you had before that automa tically - it would n't be automatic but it would be regular - it will be based, I bel ieve, on the total funds that they are receiving and whatever is left with the people them selves, but we have not reached a final decision on this at this time. MR. SHERMAN: Mr .

Speaker, in view of the fact that the increase is as represented by the Honourable Mi n ister of Health, 60 cents over a specific period of time rather than a $1 over that equal period of time , can the Mi nister advise this Hous e whether the historic ratio that was observed by the government of which I was a mem ber, Sir , and by the previous government of which he was a mem ber, the historic ratio in Manitoba whereby personal care pensioner resid ents have always said that they were prepared to pay their way and always paid approxim ately 23 percent of the cost of the program and the provincial taxpayer and Treasury pick ed up the other 77 percent, whether that historic ratio is being preserved or whether it's being distorted under the new rate schedule?

MR. DES JAR DINS : Mr . Speaker, this historical ratio has been defined by the member who has just spoken, because I think that in the years the former govern ment, the New Democratic Party government or the one that started this progr am, fir st had it covered under hospit aliz ation and I think there were only two increases. There was no historical ratio with a certain am ount that was asked to pay - then the former governm ent at that - we're not tied with any histori cal ratio.

We're just more interested in mak ing sure that the people have enough, that they retain enough money to lead a fair li fe in their decl ining years. MR. SHE RMAN: Mr . Speaker, would the Honourable Mi nister not concede that historical ratio was designed specifically to do that to ensure that they had suffi cient di sposable income and that any examination of the di sposable income tables over the last nine years since the program came into effect will dem onstrate that ratio has preserved that, that it's not necessary to dis tort that ratio. MR. DES JARDINS : The ratio has changed qui te a bit.

In 19 74-75, di sposable inco me was 32. 1 and in 19 78- 79, 25; so if the memb er would consider that keeping the ratio, he's got a funny way of keeping things. MR. SHE RMAN: Mr . Speaker, I would ask the Hon ourable Mi nister of Health to check his records and check his tables. I'm talk ing about the ratio of support for the program, a program which now costs approx im ately $13 0 milli on a year and which at its outset cost about $25 milli on a year.

The resid ents always carried 669 about 22-23 percent of that load and always expressed a desire to do so as long as they could do so, and if Provincial Treasury picked up the other 77 percent. MR. DES JARDINS: Mr . Speaker, I think we have an example of what the diffe rence is between the two governm ents. My friend just explained that in his days they were interested in what portion they would pay. We're more interested in what kind of portion, what will remai n with the people to see if they can get along, and that mi ght vary at certain time s. MR. SHE RMAN: Mr .

Speaker, one final question, would the Mi nister not concede that the ratio and the tables were always structured so that that di sposable income kept increasing. There might have been one or two anomalies, when because of things the Federal Governme nt did it increased at a more substant ial rate or level than would have been no rmally the case. But we couldn't account for specific provisions such as the Federal Governments introduction of the addi tional $30 a month bonus in January of 19 80, which was a Federal election campaign promise.

On the basis of OASGIS Manitoba Supplement for the elderly, etc., those ratios and those rates were alwa ys main tained and structured in such a way to ensure that over a gi ven year the di sposable income increased over the previous year. Would the Mi nister not concede that point. MR. DESJARD IN S: Mr . Speaker, I'm not ready to concede anything. My hon ourable friend is talk ing about certain ratios, this is the exp lanation, I'm not questioning that.

I' m saying that when we first ensure the personal care home, I think that in the years that we were there I think we started at 4.50 and when we left office it was 5.75, and that was, in the years we were there, about five years. And from 77-78 the first increase of the Conservative Government was 5.75 to 6.24, then to 6.94, 7.81 , 8.66, and 10 .38, all in four years. So you can't say that there was a pattern estab li shed. There had not been a pattern establ ished.

The pattern establ ished, which you had the right to do when you had the mandate, but we don't have to buy this historical ratio, it doesn't fit with our plans at all. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. HAR RY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr . Speaker, I dir ect a question to The Honourable Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes. Some time in Decemb er the Fir st Mi nister was quoted that Alcan should comp lete its five milli on site feasibil ity study by next February.

My question to the Honourable Mi nis ter is, February has come and gone, can he report to us whether that site study is nearing comple tion, or can he offer particul arly to my constit uents some idea of when those initia l feasibili ty stu di es that the Fir st Mi nister referred to will be comple ted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Energy and Mi nes. MR. PARA SIUK: As I've said later, more recently in the House, Mr. Speaker, Alcan and the Province of

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 Manitoba jointly decided to conduct an indepth joint review of all aspects of the alumi num smelting oppor tunities and possibil ities in Manitoba without any pre conditio ns. And that means that all aspects are being reviewed, fabrication, processing , power aspects, site selection aspects, and while that is going on the work on the specific site analysis has been slowed down somewhat. It was a bit dela yed anyway, and that, the internal joint review, takes precedence over the oth ers righ t now, Mr . Speaker. MR. ENNS : Mr.

Speaker, the matter of the Alc an potent ial site is of tremendous inte rest to my constit uents. I know the honourable memb er would appre ciate that. And I know that the honourable mem bers opposite got a li ttle upset when they did n't agr ee with their advertising poli cy and they started talking about all the negotiati ons that are taking place, with Rey no lds and with Kaiser and with other alumi num com panies. I would li ke to know, is the government cur rently negotiating with any other aluminum company other than Alc an for the siting of a plant in Manitoba? MR. PARA SIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I don't think its any secret that the Province of Manitoba is indeed di scus sing possibili ties of alumi num smelters in Manitoba with other alumi num companies. There's no reason why there coul dn't be the possibil ity of more than one alum inum smelter. Mr . Speaker, in that respect that's an ongoing process that frankly was not pursued despite recom mendati ons to the contrary, by advis ers to the previous government, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENN S: I don't want to break the rules of the Hous e and repeat questions.

I'm well aware, in fact it was part of di scussions that involved several alumi num interests at the time this admin istration was wrong. My specific question is, is the Mi nister now carrying out specific di scussi ons and negotiations with any other alumi num company other than Al can? MR. PARA SIUK: Mr. Speaker, we are pursuing di s cussi ons with Al can in terms of the joint study that we announced at the end of Januar y.

The government is also di scussing the aluminum smelting busi ness and the aluminum ind ustry with other aluminum compan ies that may lead to di scussions, it's hard to say at this particular stage, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS : Mr . Speaker, it leads to a further ques tion, have they specifically pursued any of the negoti ations with the other companies that were contacted by the previous adm ini stration with respect to alumi num plant production here in Manitoba. MR. PARA SIUK: Mr . Speaker, we are, as I think I have said twice alr eady, we are having di scussi ons with other aluminum companies.

That's the thir d time, yes, we are having dis cussions with other aluminum com panies. We haven't precluded Alc an from talking to anyone, Mr . Speaker, in the world, and Alcan certainly hasn't precl uded our talking to other alum inum com panies about the alumi num busin ess, Mr . Speaker. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr . Speaker, I dir ect a question to The Mi nister of Economic Developm ent on another 670 subject.

Yesterday or the other week, Thursday or Friday, having completed the Estima tes on Parks, the Mi nister of Natur al Resources did not ind icate to us that the government had acq uired the somewhat deterior ated assets of the El' nor Hot el. Deteriorated I say because of the fire. Si nce then through news reports I under stand the governm ent now owns the assets of the El 'nor Hotel in the Whit eshell Park at Falcon Lake. My question to the Hon ourable Mi nister is, what plans has the governm ent for the El' nor Hotel and Motel in the Whites hell.

Is this government contem plating getting back into the hotel business for which they have such a great track record? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Eco no mic Development. HON. MURIEL SM ITH (Osborne): Mr . Speaker, I'd li ke to take that question under advis ement. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. ROB ERT BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Fir st Mi nister.

I would ask the Fir st Mi nister, in ligh t of his election promise that he wou ld im prove the qual ity of li fe in small towns and rural comm unities in this province, and in light of his election promise that he would ensure that small busin esses stay in business, I wonder if he could confirm that part of that election promise will mean a 21. 8 percent increase for all small busin esses in Steinbach for school tax purposes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fir st Mi nister. MR. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr .

Speaker, in respect to the question posed by the Honourable Memb er for La Verendrye, the reference to small businesses, one that he is taking out of context, the reference was made to indeed the province con fronted by Manitoba small busin ess arising from monetary poli cies that indeed were supported by the previous government in the Province of Manitoba, and indeed as well initiated and promoted by the Trudeau government in Ottawa. As a result of our opposition to those interest rate polic ies and the manner that they affected Manitoba's small busi ness, we introduced the In terest Rate Rel ief Pr ogram, Mr .

Speaker, not that we anticipate that each and every small business will be prevented from entering into bankruptucy gi ven cir cumstances, but to assist small busi ness that are going into bankruptucy solely due to the runaway monetary polic ies that are commo nly known as Reaganomics south of the Border in poli cies indeed that, as I mentioned earlier, are endorsed and fully supported by conservative fiscal econo mis ts and poli tical conservatives. MR. BANMAN: Well, Mr .

Speaker, in light of that answer I would ask the Fir st Mi nister if he bel ieves a 21 percent increase in taxation for school tax purposes on small business will help that business survive. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, in further response to the

Monday, 22 March, 1982 Honourable Member for La Verendrye, I wish that the Opposition would get their act together. On one hand, Mr . Speaker, we have been con demned for increasing spend ing, in view of the pres ent fiscal situation and continue on to the reasonable level of public service. On the other hand , Mr. Speaker, from practically each question peri od, we have been asked questions by the Honourable Mem ber for St.

Nor bert and now by the Hon ourable Memb er for La Verend rye, to increase within three months, four months of our election spending at a very, very major way beyond indeed even past practice in regard to municipal assistance. We are doing our best, given the present financial situation, but I urge the Opposition to get their act together. You can't on one hand restrain spending and the other hand do, as it has been demanded by honourable memb ers across the way, increase radically spending in other areas. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR . LYON: Mr .

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Fi rst Mi nister is confi rming by in dir ection if not by forthright statement which we are coming not to expect from him or his colle agues, that tax im posed on small business are being increased as a di rect result of their policie s and education, could he tell the House, Mr .

Speaker and the people of Manitoba, how that new broken promise, how that conforms with the statement that he made to the Brandon Chamber of Commer ce only last week when he said and I quote from his speech notes, "Fi rst and foremost the new governm ent feels a profound and fundame ntal obli gation to fulfil! its election comm itm ents in an age" still quoting, Mr . Speaker, "in an age of cynicism about governm ent and the political process, we think it is espec ially im po rtant to keep faith with Manitobans." Mr .

Speaker, would the Fi rst Mi nister, tell us how he is keeping faith with the people of Steinbach and the promise to keep taxes down? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Fir st Mi nister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, in answer to the Leader of the Opposition, this is a government that indeed intends to keep faith with the people of Manitoba. We received a mandate to provide government over a four year peri od. Dur ing that period of ti me, it is our inten tion to do what we can within the li mited powers of provincial ju risdiction to turn the economy around in Manitoba and Mr.

Speaker, to reverse Conservative econo mic policies that as I mentioned before were supported provin cially and federally, so indeed we can undertake the task of insuring that there is less burden upon the homeowners, the farmers, the busi ness people in Manitoba. But, Mr . Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition should not think that Manitoba ns are so unreasona ble as to expect that within four months, four months of the election of this government, that we would be able to erase municipal taxes or indeed even to reduce the increase in municipal taxes in Manitoba.

The people of Manitoba are much mor e reasonable indeed than 671 that which the Leader of the Opposition gives Mani tobans credit for. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact, that last year under the new financing arrangeme nts brought in by the then Conservative Governme nt with respect to education financing in Manitoba which saw some thing in excess of $70 mill ion extra from provincial funds put into education, whi ch, Sir , resulted in either education costs being frozen or reduced in every school division in Manitoba with the exception of five.

Can my honourable friend, the Fi rst Mi nister, please tell the House how he is keeping his election promise to the people of Manitoba which in his favourite pam phlet said under the housing section, the burden of education costs which often fall unfairly on low income homeowners would be shif ted away from property taxes. Would he mind telli ng us, Mr . Speaker, how his programs thus far have li ved up to that pho ney promise that he made in the election? MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition last week suggested I was acting lik e a wet hen.

I would ask you to judge who 's acting lik e a wet hen today? Mr. Speaker, I recall a promise, a promise that was made by the now party that sits in the Opposition benches, in 19 77 that they were going to reduce edu cation taxes in Manitoba . I recall, Mr. Speaker, 19 77- 78, 19 78-79, 19 80-81 in which that government virtu ally froze assistance to the municipalities and to the school di visio ns in Manitoba. Then, Mr . Speaker, the year prior to the election, they increased by some $70 milli on financial assistance to the school divis ions in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, this government does not intend to perform in that way. Thi s government intends to con tinue a pattern of assistance to municipalities and school divisio ns on a reasonable basis whether it's a year after the election or the year before the election. MR. LYON: Mr . Speaker, the question is a very simple one, my honour able friend can keep shi ll ying and shallyin g and flim ming and !lam ming and shak ing his feathers all he wishes, but the glue has stuck, Mr . Speaker.

When is the Fi rst Mi nister going to keep his promise to the people of Manitoba which he repeated again last week in Brandon, that in this age of cyni cism about governme nt and the poli tical process, we think it is especially imp ortant to keep faith with Man itobans. Could he tell us how he is keeping faith with the taxpayers of Manitoba with respect to 21 percent increase in education costs? MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, this is a government that is indeed is keeping faith with Manitobans and that can best demo nstrated by the fact, and my reference was in that speech that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to in Brandon, the fact that we have pro ceeded with an Interest Rate Relie f Program insofar as farmer s, business people and home owners are concerned in the province; that we are proceeding with a Main Street Manitoba Program and that we are proceeding with the development of a Manitoba Oil and Gas Corporation to ensure greater return, greater return to Manitobans for their natural resources that

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 properly belonged to Manito bans and that the Mi nis ter of Agricu lture, very, very shortly, Mr . Speaker, after a great deal of consultation will be ann ouncing a Beef Stabil ization Program insofar as Manitoba ns are concerned. Mr . Speaker, I think Manito bans, in fact would for give us in view of the fiscal situation left for us by the previous government, aided and abetted by the Fed eral Government, if we had ignored those election commit ments. But, Mr. Speaker, we intend to main tain faith with the people of the Province of Manitoba. MR. l YON: Mr .

Speaker, can I take it then that thi s House and the people of Manitoba should pay just as much attention to the statement that has just been made by the Fi rst Mi nister in its alle ged fulfillme nt of his promise, in an age of cynicism about government and the political process - we thin k it is especially im portant to keep faith with Manitobans.

Is the state ment that he just made as accurate as the statement that he made in the same speech wherein he said, yet Manitoba is sti ll going to suffer at least 10 0 milli on in Federal cutbacks which figur e has been cut by a thir d today by his own Mi nister of Finance? Mr . Speaker, when he's answering that question would he mind tell ing us when he's going to get his act together running the Province of Manitoba? MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, in reply to the Leader of the Opposition it gives me opportunity to publicly com mend my Mi nister of Finance because I say to the Leader of the Opposition, my Mi nister of Fin ance has indeed done a better job in regard to negotiating a very dif ficult situation with the Federal Government than I would have thought possible as a result of estimates that we had received some three weeks ago in regard to dis cussions that had taken place. Mr .

Speaker, in regard to the general question by the Leader of the Opposition, I have every confidence that at the end of our four year term in government and after assuming government dur ing very diff icult economic and financial cir cumstances, that Manito bans will judge thi s governm ent on a better basis as to its main taining faith with the people of Manitoba than indeed was the case with the previous administration. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, while lis tening to the dec lama tions of the Fi rst Mi nister, I of course approve as do all memb ers on thi s side of the House of the right of the people of Manitoba to make that judgme nt and we suggest that it may perhaps be made sooner than four years in the light of the faltering stance of thi s government in its fi rst few weeks and months in operation. That being the case, Mr .

Speaker, would it not be agreeable to the Fi rst Mi nister to assess as well in that statement that he would like it to be a fair and equita ble and honest appreciation of what thi s government has done rather than one based on phony election promises such as we've been reading to him this afternoon and broken promis es. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, really it puzzles me as to what question the Leader of the Opposi tio n has posed. He appears to be making for the fourth or fifth time a statement that is quite simi lar, one to the next. 672 Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has not made his point; he is not successfully maki ng his point dur ing the question period. Manitobans will judge and they will judge very well at the end of the four year period in which we have been in government whether we have lived up to the mandate which we received and we respect from Manitobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes. MR. PAR ASIUK: Mr . Speaker, I wanted to take the fi rst opportunity within the same question period to cl arify a statement that I had made in response to questioning by the Memb er for Lakeside.

The previous government was advised by his advi sers to meet with other alumi num companies prior to signing any types of agreements with the alu minum comp any, Al can, in order to have a better perception of what the alumi num ind ustry was all about and to determine whether in fact there were di fferent pers pectives and strategie s that other companies might have. That was not done, Mr .

Speaker, but it is true that towards, I think in September of 19 81 , for reasons I don't know, there were certain people in the previous government that did contact other alumi num com panies to start up dis cussions and I just wanted to clarify that for the record. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Turtle Moun tain. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, my question is for the Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes. Some days ago I asked a question of the Mi nister whether or not he con curred with the action of Manitoba Mi neral Resources in sel lin g three oil wells that they had an interest in.

Does the Mi nister agree with that action? MR. PARA SIUK : Mr . Speaker, I'm looking into that. I thought that related to some activity undertaken by MMR during the New Democratic party term of office since December 1 st. I gather it relates to some deci sion taken by MMR dur ing the Conservative term of office. I haven't had a chance to look into that com pletely, Mr. Speaker, and I don't lik e ma king a com ment off the top of my head because I do know that the Conservative government when in office tried to sell off Autopac. I do know that; I do know that they tried to sell off ManFor, Mr.

Speaker; I do know that they tried to sell MacKenzie Seed; I do know that they sold off Mo rden Fine Foods, the Lord Selkir k and a numb er of other things lik e that so I hazard to pass com ment on what the previous government did with respect to any activity. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, now that the member is a memb er of the Treasury Board and is part of that government over there and he was asked the question several days ago whether or not he concurred with that action, would the Mi nister undertake to spend a li ttle bit of his time and review the situation and answer the questions that are put to him in thi s Legisla ture? MR. PARA SIUK: Mr. Speaker, when it comes to my I

assessing actions under taken by the previous Con servative government in its term of office with respect to a whole set of activities, that could be done. One could spend a lot of time going through all the acti ons of the previous governm ent as related to trying to sell off Autopac, bringing in outsiders to do reviews of Autopac, but that would be a backward-looking exer cise. This government wants to look to the future. They want to bury the past; they want to spend time looking at our potential, looking at our opportunities for development, Mr .

Speaker, and spending our time undertaking those efforts rather than spending most of our time trying to look back into the past. We are a forward-looking government, Mr . Speaker, even though we have a backward-looking Opposition. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, at a time that the governm ent is hold ing out great promise for their new Crown oil corporation, it would seem to be of consid erable interest to look at the eight oil wells that the province does have an interest in now. A supplementary question to the Mi nister, Mr .

Speaker. would be: Does the Mi nister plan to leave the fair and equitable royalty system and taxation structure on the oil ind ustry in place which was in place when they assumed government last November? MR. PARAS IU K: Mr . Speaker, we have been meeting with representatives of the oil ind ustry. It's our inten tion, in ligh t of the new pricing arrangem ents to review all aspects of royalties and incentives to determine our position vis-a-vis other provinces.

We take into accoun t the fact that our situation in Mani toba is, I think, mor e di fficult than the situation in Saskat chewan and Al berta, but I can't make a bla nket commitme nt at this particular stage but it is certainly our intention to review the situation, to cons ult with the ind ustry, to consult with other people involved in order to develop a long-term strategy and approach to oil and gas development in Manitoba especially with a view to ensuring that there is the greatest pos sible benefits to Manito bans and especially that those benefits are retained withi n the Province of Manitoba. MR.

SPEA KER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Natur al Resources. HON. AL MACKL ING (St. James): Mr . Speaker, the other day - I bel ieve it was Thursday - the Honour able Mem ber for Lakeside indica ted in a statement and then in a question that he had received some correspondence or he was aware of so me corr espon dence in connection with the Gar rison project from the State of North Dakota from an official there. I ind icated to him that I had no knowledge of such correspondence and he suggested I had better look.

We have made an exhaustive in quir y and there is no correspondence from the State of North Dakota in respect to that and I would li ke the hon ourable member to send me a copy of the correspondence he says he is know ledgeable about. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Memb er for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr .

Speaker, in view of the fact a fairly major announcement was 673 made today by the Federal Governme nt re: the initial prices of Wheat Board grains, does the Fir st Min ister or did the Fir st Mi nister and his Mi nister of Agricu lture have input into the establishme nt of the developme nt of the initial prices that were just announced today? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Fir st Min ister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, if indeed that has been the practice in the past, then I would assume the Mi nis ter of Agricu lture would have, indeed, had input.

I have to take the question as notice for the Mi nister of Agricultur e. MR. DOWNEY : Again, Mr . Speaker. in view of the fact that the Mi nister is concerned with the farm comm un ity or at least told us that prior to the election. and in view of the fact he is working on a good working relatio nsh ip with the Federal Government, is he satis fied with those prices that were announced this morning? MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, in answer to the question from the Hon ourable Memb er for Arthur, in view of the projected drop in regard to net farm income in 19 82 in Manitoba, one cannot be satisfied with the prices that farmer s are receiving in regard to gr ain. It is for that reason, Mr. Speaker, that we intend to indeed be proceeding with a resolutio n in this House pertaining to the Crow rate. I would hope that the honourable mem bers across the way would add their voice, Mr.

Speaker, in providing to the Federal Governm ent a very clear and decisive voice from this Legislatur e that we oppose the change in the Crow rate addin g a further bu rden on to the farmers of this province pertaining to transportation costs in addi tion to the extra costs that they are now paying in regard to energy and interest costs. MR. DOWNEY: Mr .

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Fir st Mi nister of the Province of Manitoba has his priorities screwed up where, in fact, he's introd ucing a resolutio n deal ing with the Crow rate instead of intro duc ing a resolution that would support the incomes to the farmers, in fact. when they're losing some initial prices when it comes to oats and barley. I would challenge, Mr.

Speaker. the Fi rst Mi nister to straighten out his priorities and forget about the political hay he's making on the Crow rate and deal with the real problem that the farmer s are facing and that is, net return for their efforts that they are putting into the farm comm unity. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, in response to either the statement of a non poli tical nature by the Memb er for Arth ur, or the question which was hard to di scern but may have very well been there. I want to say to the Hon ourable Memb er for Arthur. we will not be chased away from taking a firm position in respect to the Crow.

Mem bers of the Opposition may indeed wish to be wishy-washy in regard to the Crow issue; we do not intend to be. If , indeed, the honourable mem bers want to ensure a fair deal for the farmers of this province, they will deal with the issue that is very much at hand, and that is the threat of con siderably increased costs to the farmers arising from extra transportation costs.

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Fi rst Mi ni ster has dir ect control of the education tax that, by the way, incr eased by 21 percent to the farm com mun ity he is the provincial Fir st Mini ster - his responsi bili ty for dir ect taxation and incr eases to those farmers. Why, Mr. Speaker, is he so con cerned about the incr ease in freight rates when he has no control over them, but does have in fact control over the taxes which are dir ectly on tops and the backs of the farmers of this province? Where are his priorities, Mr. Speaker? MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, a further answer the Honour able Mem ber for Arthur. When the Member for Arthur in deed was the Min ister of Agricu lture in the Provinc e of Manit oba, he requested a study to be done from some very noted expertise at the Uni versity of Mani toba, the Agricultur al Department, and I do applaud the Honour able Memb er for Arth ur for ensur in g that study be done. But in view of the conclusions in that study as to the loss to Mani toba farmer s, in tro duced by a removal of the Crow rate, Mr.

Speaker, I find it somewhat mysterious that the Honour able Member for Arthur would now adopt the position that he is adopting in this Hous e. It would not clearly support that objective study that was done as a result of his own request as Min ister of Agricultur e in Manit oba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions having expired, Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern ment House Leader. MR. ROL AND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to fi rst of all annou nce a meeting of the Law Am end ments Comm ittee for Thursday, Apri l 1, 19 82, to consider at comm ittee stage some of the bills which have passed second reading. I would now move, seconded by the Honour able Min ister of Fi nance, that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Hous e resolve itself in to a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted by the Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carrie d and the Hous e resolved itself in to a Com mi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Memb er for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart ment of Northern Affairs and the Honour able Mem ber for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPl Y SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIR MAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): We'll call th e Comm ittee to order. We're on Wildl ife, page 10 0, 9. (a) ( 1) Salarie s-pass; -(I nterject ion)- 9.(a ) (1 )- pass; 9. (a) (2) -pass; 9. (b )

(1) Salari es-pass - the Memb er for lnk ster. 674 MR. DON SCOTT (lnk ster): I'd just lik e to get a few com ments on and I'll keep it relatively short so the Memb er for Minne dosa doesn't leave. I've got to try and pick up from where I was in my thought pattern the other day, but I can only speak for half-an-hour . Mr .

Minis ter, I would lik e to mak e so me poin ts that I have of concern towards the wildl ife management in general and I'm afraid in some areas I think that we're more geared, at least the department is more geared, towards the protection of game species themselves and in particular some species over others at di fferent time s - or perhaps furbearing species as well - more so than they are for the protection of the general ecology.

I'm thinking in particular of programs in the past towards wolves, coyotes, cats as well and other predators and those that are classified as predators and just the whole idea of sti ll mai ntai ning on our books the whole concept of predators and classifica tion of ani mals for predators where they pay people to destroy. That gi ves me some anxie ties of my own towards the whole id ea of protectin g one species at the expense of others. One classic example I think we can look up in the Saskeram marsh areas and in the Saskeram, we have problems with management of water levels.

We have management of water levels for the perpetuation of waterfowl geared mostly towards producing water fowl for hunting purposes and writing off, in many cases, from our water management techniq ues, the fish that are caught upstream particul arly in the win ter mon ths when the ice freezes down and kill s the fish out.

You also have with the quick reduction in water levels the problems with many fur beari ng spe cies such as beaver, musk rats in particu lar, many of them are left high and dry and that kin d of habit at mi smanagement rather than man agement, I would say, does more harm in many in stances than it does good and it's cultivation of a particu lar species at the detriment of several others. I think we should be starting to take a more hol istic attitude towards these and not going after some spe cies to the detriment of others.

We have examples of, I guess it comes under Wildl ife Ma nagement, and that is hunting in particular at the Beaudry Park where it has been opened up now for bow hunters, and a park so close to the city that has a numb er of people, and with access to an area that has such classic river bottom land that it's quite di sturbing and it's keepi ng out quit e a few people as well from walking through the area, just on pleasant nature hikes or whatever they may be there fo r - when there are bow hunters sitting up trees all camouflaged up with their bows sprung to some nonsus pecting deer com ing along to a salt li ck or wha tever may have been set up.

On the east side of Lake Winn ipeg, generally in an opening area, I wonder if you could confirm whether there has been a hunting season or any special li cen ces gi ven to the hunting of caribou on the east side, this is a lower herd, on the ease side of Lake Win ni peg. MR. MAC KLING: Mr. Chairman, the department would have to check that. MR. SCOTT: As a back up in formation piece I under stand that about three years ago there was a fairly substantial hunt in the area approved by the regi onal

22 March, 1982 manager. I don't think that the hunt al one was respon sible but I bel ieve that certainly that herd is in a great amo unt of danger now, both from increased access due to the road, and increased hunting pressure through ille gal hunting as much as legal hunting per haps. But I would li ke it if you could get back to me on that and giv e me some clarifi cation on that point. I think another point I'm wondering is how much effort has been made in the lower part of Manitoba. In the far north I understand, and I was in Tado ule Lake just after Mr .

Ransom was there a couple of years ago, when he was the Mi nister, I was there the same wee kend as he was. -(ln terjection) -S ome of the people in the com munity I was speaking to really weren't qui te sure why he was there. I tried to explain to them why he was there, to a fair degree of success I believe. -(In terjection)- The Memb er of Em erson was there as wel l? And I di dn't reali ze either one of them were there. I don't thin k that's any great matter of credit for the Mem ber of Em erson that he was there and I di dn't know he was there either.

Anyway, we have establ ished a co-operative effort. if you wish, between the Native people in the north and the managem ent of the Kaminuriuk Herd. I' m wondering has there been anything simi lar to that done in the southern part of Manitoba moving down say just down to the 52nd parallel or so. How much co-operative mechanisms have been establ ished to work alongside the Native comm unity? MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chai rman, I'm advised that there's been high deg ree of co-operation with the Native commu nities in connection with the develop ment of these programs. MR.

SCOTT: So there has been contacts made with the Keewatin Tribal Coun cil and also Four Nations Confederacy? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr . Chair man. MR.

SCOTT: One of the last parts, or I've got a couple of points left I guess, on one instance of Oak Ham mock Marsh, the hunting area permit ted around the marsh has increased fair ly substan tially, about three years ago where they moved the permis sible hunting territory in that much cl oser to the marsh, I'm wonder ing if there's any consideration to a revising of this policy, giv en in particular, that this area has moved in a relatively short period of time with the assistance of the department, with the assistance of outside orga n izations such as the Manitoba Natural ists Society, who have been taking a very active

part in promoting the use of this area and in conjunction with the department, has offered interpretive services there during the last couple of sum mers. The area has mad e itself international headl ines as one of the top bir di ng areas in Nor th Americ a and it's only really been known, outside of a very small group of people, for the past three or four years as we're starting to expand it into a major tourist attraction for people outside of the Winnipeg area and outside of even Manitoba itself. MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chai rman. are those all the remarks now? Shall I answer them?

I'll wait and 675 answer all of them. MR. SCOTT: That was all I had on Oak Hammo ck, if you wish to answer on Oak Hammock. MR. MACKLING: I'd rather - I have a numb er of com ments on it. MR. SCOTT: Okay, the other concern I have is the changes in The Wildli fe Act the last time around where Sunday hunting is no longer prohi bited.

I appreciate fully that there were some memb ers from the Opposition last week asking for this to be li beral ized further yet, but it is my understanding that the Act no longer prohibi ts Sunday hunting but is simply, the province can be di vvied up into areas perhaps and more specifically, I'm not even sure if it's just an Order-in-Council or if it's a Mi nisterial decision on his own whether or not he can permit Sunday hunting in more areas of the province. I would like to perhaps have some expression of your attitude, Mr .

Mi nister, as a new Min ister towards the hunting particul arly south of the 53rd or whatever, on Sundays. MR. MACKLING: Are those all the questions? Mr . Chai rman, I'll go in reverse order if I can then fairly qui ckly. In respect to Sunday hunting, I think we had a di scussion about this matter earlier and I had indi cated that I bel ieve the general consensus of the peo ple is that Sunday hunting is not necessary.

My per sonal view is that what we should do is strive to provide more opportunities for people throughout the week and on Saturdays to be able to enjoy the out doors and that on Sun days, we should be able to giv e the game a break and give them a rest. However. observation was made in connection with very remote areas and I indic ated I'm not dog matic. I certainly would be prepared to look at that, but that could be dangerous because it might be the thi n edge of the wedge, but certainly I'm not bl ind to look ing at something like that.

Now in respect to the Oak Hammo ck area, yes, it is a very exciting area from the point of view of nat uralis ts and conservat ionists. There were 28, 000 people out at Oak Hammo ck last year, I'm advised. In respect to the changes in hunting in the periphery or the boundary, I'm advised by my staff that because of the severe depredation of crop in the area, there was some increased hunting al lowed to reduce that. In respect to the concerns about hunting in the Nopoming area, there is no hunting allo wed in the park, no cari bou season al lowed in the park.

I haven't got the information on what happened three years ago. In respect to concern about predators. there is no predator control Act now. The provisions that are needed in respect to predator s that are found withi n The Wildl ife Act itself. Predators are dealt with, or at least ind ividual ani mals that become a problem and are considered predatoria of game at a certain stage because of overnumbers in a certain area, are dealt with on a prag matic basis and there is no specific program to wipe out certain types of animals because they are of themselves a problem to other forms of ani mal.

If there is an overabun dance of a certain species

Monday, 22 Mar ch, 19 82 and they're creating a problem, then that problem is addr essed in divually and that is the manner in which these things have been dealt with by the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Emer son. MR. ALBERT DRIE DGER (Em erson): Mr . Chairma n, I have a few questions that I mi ssed the other day. One is related to the fact of issuing lic ences to our senior citizens. I think at one stage of the gam e there was some di scussion within the department, and certainly within our government, to possibly allo w our senior citi zens to obtain Big Game Licence without having to pay for them.

At the present time, we allo w them to have a Fish ing Li cence without payment and I am wondering whether the Mi nister could possibly com ment on that. MR. MAC KLING: Mr . Chai rman, the only provision now is that an Upland Game Bi rd Licence is available to a senior citiz en without cost. If the hon ourable mem ber is ma ki ng that a serious propos al, I would be interested in it. It would involve some cost, I don't know how much that wou ld involve, but I ind icate again that I am not enthusiastic or non-ent husiastic about it.

I think you have look at it from the point of view of what it might involve from the cost point of view and gi ven our tigh t financ ial situation, we may not feel that's a high enough priority. MR. DR IEDGER: Well, I would make it as a serious suggestion. I think the senior citiz ens that are over 65 that are big game hunting is a very limi ted amoun t. I woul dn't have the figur e, but just looking around myself in my own commu nity, there isn't that many. I don't think it would be a dramatic thin g on the finan cial aspect of it, and I think it would be a very nice gesture for senior cit izens.

Further to that, there was some areas where under the draw system for various big game li cence draws, provision was made on a trial basis, I think around the Spruce Woods area where people who had land there, owned the land , that they were allo wed to buy a lic ence to hunt on their own land, aside from the draw. That was done at two places, I am told that possibly two areas where it was being tried, and I was wonder ing if the Mi nister could probably comme nt as to whether this program is going to be expanded or not?

I think it would do much to enhance the relationship between the farmers and hunters general ly if this was al lowed. What happens from time to time now is that the farmers who have to put up with the game, things of this nature, when hunting season comes, even if they apply and don't get drawn, other people come and try and hunt on their land, ask permission, and the farmer who has been putting up with the wildl if e all year long and maybe taken a very keen interest in mak ing sure that everything is fine, comes time to hunt, he is di s crimin ated again st and can't hunt.

I would sugg est that the program possibly be expanded but I would lik e to have the Min ister's com ments on that. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr . Chai rman, I am advised that at the present time, for this season, there is a special landowner lic ence that provides for the owner of the 676 land to obtain a li cence to hunt on his land outside of the draw in the Spruce Woods Provincial Park and the area con tig uous to Ri di ng Moun tain National Park.

The Duck Mountain Park periphery or the area is being considered, but there are some special prob lems involved in that and the department is looki ng at that will be considering that later, but there's no provi sion for this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Min nedosa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Minn edosa): Mr . Chai rman, yes, I think the li censing of the land owners has worked out very, very wel l. I think there was some 200 available around Ridi ng Mo untain and I think there was only a hundred and some odd of them that took advantage of it.

How successful they were in getting their animal I don't know, but of the the expe rience of the people in the area, there was no di fficu lty in obtaining perm ission to hunt there even though they might have had a permit on their own for their own land. It seemed to work out very, very wel l. There was a good relationship with the hunters and the land owners there. Mr . Chai rman, I spoke of this before and I know there may be another area where we could na il it down, but I just wanted to expand a li ttle further on what I said the other day about elk ranc hing.

We tal ked about the one that's been authorized up north and I've had some inq uiries over the weekend for an area close to the Ridi ng Mountain Park, if some Crown Land were avai lable and what steps they should take. There are some people in my area that are very interested in establish ing a, I guess you would call it, comme rcial operation. I don't know how else you might refer to it. -( Interject ion)- I under stand we have an elk ranch in Rid ing Moun tain National Park, but that's an establi shment for di ning and recreational accommodation other than hunting.

Apparently, there has been some prog ress made in Al berta and Saskatchewan in allo wing this type of operation and the Mi nister's staff here may have some information on it and he may be able to gi ve me a li ttle more information that I could take back to my people and ind icate what the feelings of the department are maybe on leasing some more Crown land up in that particular area to allo w for this type of a venture. MR. MA CKLING: Mr .

Chai rman, I think we did have some questions on this matter before and I indic ated then that the permit that was granted for the elk ranch ing in Manitoba is more or less of an experim ent in respect to the breeding in captivity of wild elk. There is no provision for the slaug hter of these ani mals or the sale of meat. I'm gi ven to under stand that in our sister provinces, similar cond itio ns prevail.

There is not slaug htering of the ani mals; they're being reared in captivity for re-population in other areas, so that I would n't gi ve any encouragement to the concept of the raising of these ani mals for table food as such. MR. BLAKE: Mr . Chai rman, what di fference would the Mi nister see in using the elk on an operation such as that as compared with buffalo? MR. MACK LING: Mr . Chai rman, we don't have bison

roaming the plains anymore. They're not a game animal that is hunted and there is a major di stinction therefore between bison that are not avai lable for hunting and elk that are. MR. BLAKE: Buffalo meat is avail able for the market. MR. MAC KLING: Because, Mr .

Chai rman, buffalo are no longer in a wild state roaming the plains or being hunted, they are considered an ani mal that's reared exclusively in captivity now and therefore are consi dered, when the herd is too large, for slaug hter, but it would be the reverse I think if bison were exten sively roaming the wild s, they would probably be pre served as an ani mal to be hunted and not do mesti cally slaug htered for food. MR.

BLAKE: Would the Mi nister know or would any of his staff know that the venison, for example, that's provided in restaurant menus in Europe; is that raised commercially or is that just wild game that's br ought in by poachers or game hunters? MR. l\ll ACKLING: Mr . Chair man, there are various parts of the world in which you will find very substan tial harvesting of wild ani mals and the meat sold on a regular basis as table meat.

One of the areas that I've read about where there is a very substan tial ind ustry is in the Bal kan countries of lstonia, Latvia and Ri ga, where an extensive amo unt of deer particu larly, veni son, is harvested for com mercial sale. However in North America, we have endeavoured to preserve the animals for recreational hunting rather than table fare and I think the farmers would be a little bit concerned if we made a very substant ial effort, invested money to encourage competition again st red meats that are produced by our farmers. MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Chai rman, I don't think you would have to invest that much money. I think the people that want to get into this type of a venture are pre pared to risk their own capital and take their ch ances. My best advice to the interested parties would be to find some Crown land that might be suitable and put a package together and then approach the Mi nister and his staff or encourage the developme nt of a wildlife area for that purpose. MR. MACKLING: Mr .

Chai rman, I admi t that there still is Crown land avail able, it hasn't all been sold, but traditi ons are strongly against this kind of develop ment of our wildl ife. MR. BLAKE: You woul dn't want to keep all the Crown land just for the bir ds and the bees though, surely you would al low so me other use for it as far as grazing permits and thin gs of that nature go, I'm sure, Mr . Mi nister? MR. MACKL ING: Yes, Mr . Chai rman, I've alr eady answered questions along those lin es extensively. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Mem ber for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chai rman, I'm not sure which numb er you're on. Mr .

Chair man, the Big Game Dam- 677 age Comp ensation has been increased from $1 08,300 to $21 5,300. Is that, Mr. Chai rman, figur e derived from the experience that the department has had and the increased num bers of deer particularly and I will just say that in the southwest region of the province where we have seen a consi derable increase in deer num bers over the last few years, with the feeding stations and that type of thing. I also have to say I have had excellent co-operation from one of your staff mem bers in Brandon who I have been in contact in the last whil e.

However, I did have a farmer contact me on Friday or Thursday of last week and I relayed the concern over to the department, where in fact, there are deer in the numb er of some up to 210 in a herd that this farmer is feeding. He is feeding hay that he has hi mself put up either for sale or his own use, and he is providing grain or opening grain doors in his graineries to provide some supple mental feed for these particular deer. Is he eligi ble, Mr . Chai rman, for compensation under this program as a di rect payment to him? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mi nister. MR. MACKllNG: Mr .

Chair man, I am gi ven to under stand that we did have notice of thi s question I think last week. It was Friday and departmental staff have indicated that they confirm that Mr. Lloyd Ki lfoyle, a Lyleton area farmer, is voluntarily feeding a large numb er of deer with alfalfa and rye grain and I regret to say that no monitory compensation is availa ble to him, but we are endeavouring to provide him with feed for the deer. That's our understanding. MR. DOWN EY: Mr .

Chai rman, I think that is an appropriate move to work out something with him so that the rest of the deer in the whole countryside don't find out how generous he is and become a lit tle too heavy for the indiv idual to carry. I think it's the tax payers that should be carrying the load of the wildli fe herd. However, I think it's another way that we can dem onstrate to the rest of the people of Manitoba that farmer s are not against the wild li fe being developed or maintained. That, in fact, they're very supportive of it.

Another question, I really haven't been answered the reason for the increase but is it to expand that feeding program? MR. MACKL ING: Well, Mr . Chai rman, I should have when I had the mi ke answered yes. It's in accordance with the previous year's findings that the add itional doll ars are necessary and the bulk of the damage is occasioned by deer and bear, bear in particular in respect to the do mestic honey. MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Chairma n, for the Min ister's information, the bear also destroy a lot of grain crops as wel l. MR. MACK LING: Oh yes, I know they do. MR.

DOWNEY : Is the same working arrangeme nt worked out or continued on with between the Department of Agricultur e, or will it be carried on between the Department of Agricultur e for the assess-

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 ing of crop losses? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it will continue to be through the MACC, I belie ve? MR. DOWNEY : Does the crop depredation for ducks fall within this allo cation? MR. MA CKLING: It comes later on in the Items, Mr. Chair man, but I'll be prepared to answer. It is in the Wildli fe Estima tes, but I will be prepared to answer the questions now on it if you lik e. MR. DOWNEY: I can wait, Mr . Chairman, but I would li ke to ask a question.

We have had over the past two or three years and it's some thing that I think everyone in the farm commu ni ty is concerned about, as well as, I hope this gov ernment is, the problem of getting a longer term crop depredation both compensation and loss program worked out with the Federal Govern ment. Are the departments of both Agricultur e and Natural Resources pursuing to work to get a longer term agreement? I think it is im portant, particula rly with the in creased cost of production that farmer's are facing, to incr ease the maxi mum from $50 to some thing more closer to what the actual costs are.

Is the department carrying on the discussions with the Department of Agricu lture federally and are they put ting forward a higher estimate for crop loss per acre? MR. MACK LING: Mr . Chairman, the negotiations in respect to the dollar amou nts of compensation have been negotiated apparently through the Departments of Agriculture, the federal and the provincial, but they are endeavouring to get the Federal Government to in crease the compensation to a figur e of $60 per acre, but that is an ongoing di fficu lty to get the Federal Govern ment to in cr ease the amoun t of the compensat ion.

In respect to the length of the program, the Federal Gove rnment apparently is reluctant to get in volved in long-term agreements and I guess it's ind icative of the Federal Government's general cutting back wherever it can of any fiscal respons ibili ty, any conti nuance of any major fiscal responsi bilit y on a shared basis for the provinces. They are either cutting back or at least in sisting on short-term programs all the time . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think it is im perative that the provi nce not try and play the Mr.

Ni ce Guy all the time and that they have put a pretty firm case forward to the Federal Gov ernment on this particular issue, because it is a national responsi bil ity as far as I am concerned.

It is one that is of multi-ju risdictions; U.S., Canada, and particula rly when I think, and I would lik e to pursue this a li ttle more, and I would hope that I have support from the Min ister, that when we have a program with Ducks Unlimi ted in this coun try, with mon ies to spend, I think it would be im portant if they would consider, the two parties were to con sider, an ongoing crop depredation or crop-loss pro gram fun ded by other than the taxpayers of the coun try.

If in fact they would be agreeable to this kind of approach, I think it would certainly make the relation ship between the farm commu ni ty and the people in the Natural Resources Department and Ducks Unlim - 678 ited, I think it would be a far mor e workable type system that we would have in place. If they have funds avai lable to build projects to hatch the ducks, then I think there should be fund s to help feed them after they are hatched. I think the farm com muni ty should be treated fairly in that way. MR. MACK LING: Wel l, Mr .

Chairman, I suppose all thi ngs are possible in connection with these organ iza tions and I would assume that the honour able mem ber or others did add ress this question with Ducks Un lim ited before. -(I nterjection)- I don't necessarily rec ogn ize the same degree of sympathy for that orga ni zation with your honour able colleague though. However, I am not saying that he is critical of it, but he is suggesting that perhaps they should be rearrang ing their prioritie s. I think it is a fair enough question to ask. I suppose that there will be an opportun ity for me to di scuss that.

In respect to our approach with the Federal Government, the honour able memb er kno ws that the Min ister is a ni ce guy, but I am tough too. MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Chairman, I have one specific concern and this has been an ongoing one. Mr .

Chairman, this is one of specific concern to me and to a constituent of min e, our colleague Mor ris MacGr e gor had been very much aware of it, it had been in his constituency and the past Min ister of Natural Resour ces had an on-site in vestig ation of the particu lar ly di ffic ult time this particular person was having in ligh t of dry weather conditions; he through working with Ducks Unlimi ted and the Department of Natur al Resources - and I will give you his name, it's Kelly Taylor from Oak Lake, who has a fin e herd of li vestock and a good operation on Assinib oine Ri ver - several years ago, and I do believe it was just about the time we took office, several years ago there was parcel of river-flat land bought by the department, foll owing that leased and I believe it was my colleague, one of the former Min isters, who leased this particular prop erty to Kelly Taylor.

The year before last, Mr . Taylor did receive a permission from Ducks Unlimi ted and from the government to proceed in to cut the hay. Last year in the western portion of Man itoba was equally as dry. There was an abun dance of feed in that particular operation or on that particular Ducks Unlimi ted property. He was prohib ited from going back in to hay the land.

What the man would li ke to do, and he's an excellent husbandr y person, he's not agains t Ducks Unlimi ted; he's not agai nst the Department of Natu ral Resources, what he would like to work on is an ongoing main tenance program to work with them on an ongoing basis.

He doesn't want to buy the land; he just wants to help with a mai nte na nce program, and I think it's unfortunate that some thing can't be worked out through the, if it can't be at the field level, particu lar ly at the seni or level of both Ducks Unlimi ted and your govern ment, to enable him to work on a management program with Ducks Unlim ited, do duck counts and see if in fact his haying operation is going to damage the numb er of ducks that are produced in that area. The land, Mr . Chairman, is land that would produc e 50 bushels of wheat.

I have pictur es of the former Min ister of Natural Resources standing out there. It

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 was hard to tell him from some of the wheat because it was so tall and their heads were so full. Mr. Chairman. that's on the lig hter side. but I am si ncere this man who wants to work with both the people who are responsible for Ducks Unlimi ted and natural resource developm ent and also is si ncere about producing li vestock. needs, I think, the senior level of your governme nt and Ducks Unlimi ted senior people to take a specific look at thi s. I was in formed by the past Min ister of Natural Resources that he hi mself was work ing on this to try and resolve the issue.

I would hope that it could be resolved so that Mr . Taylor could use that specific piece of ground for this year. I think it would do a lot for the im age of Ducks Unlimi ted, the im age of your department and, of course. help put some beef on the table as well as ducks and other wild fowl. So I ask you to take specific note of that. Mr . Chair man, and I'm sure Mr . Taylor would be much appreci ative of anything you could do for him. MR. CHAIRM AN: Mr. Mini ster. MR. MACKLING: Mr .

Chairman. as I've ind icated to the honour able mem ber, and all the honour able mem bers. cer tainly I am. as Min ister, prepared to hear problems and look in to them. We certainly want to manage the Crown lands to the betterment of not only wildli fe but all in terested Man itobans and where it's possi ble to make accom modations. certainly we'll be prepared to do that but we're not going to change ligh tly or int erfere with longs tanding arrangements unless there is a serious problem in volved. MR. DEPUTY CHAIR MAN, Don Scott (ln kster): The Mem ber for The Pas. MR. HARAPIAK: Mr.

Min ister, I'd just like to make a few com ments about that controversial area called the Saskera m. I think the era of co-operation has beg un by the establi shment of the marsh manager and a comm ittee that has been establ ished between the trappers, the fishermen, the wildli fe grou ps, Ducks Unlimi ted. Local Go vernment District of Consol and the farm in g associa tion.

There's only one problem; it's supposed to be a local comm ittee and there's some concern that - I kn ow we have no input, I guess you have the final say about who sits on that comm it tee - but the Ducks Unlimi ted designa ted person is not a local person and I think if they designa ted a loca l person to that commit tee. it would have more of a chance of the com mittee wor king successful ly. I think that you referred to the boun dary changes.

There were 6,000 acres out and 3,000 acres in and I think that's a decision that should have been made after that commit tee was in place because they would have felt that they would have had mor e input if they were consu lted on that area. I think maybe the consul tation should still take place. One other area that I wanted to talk about that was brought up earl ier was loss of li vestock to wolves.

There's been qui te a bit of loss to timb er wolves in this past summ er and on in to the fall and there is no com pensation at this time for timb er wolves and I commend the department for allowing the timb er wolves to be controlled by the use of some poisons. I 679 think that when the population of the wolves get too high, they must be contr olled, so the question I would li ke to ask, is there any possibil ity of bringing some system in where the farmer s could be compensa ted for the loss of their li vestock to the wolves? MR. MACK UNG: Mr .

Chair man, the honour able member is correct that pursuant to the arrangements. a commit tee structure is to recommend on the usage of the Saskeram area and the groups in volved are expected to desig nate their spokesman and their comm ittee particip ant. Although it migh t be to the advantage of the commit tee to have someone who's a representative of an int erest group that li ves in the area. I don't think that it's fair or would be well received for the government to di ctate that the person had to be resident in the area. As long as they're kn owledgeable about the concerns; that's the imp or tant thing.

In respect to the work of the com mit tee, the acreage adjustment resultant from boun dary change s that were referred to, 6,000 acres coming out of the Saske ram area and going in to agricultur e and 3, 000 in the reverse way; that question will be addr essed by this com mittee. The boun dary lines have been prepared and recommended. but we thought it appropri ate that the local comm ittee that would be look ing at all mat ters should have a look at that and be satisfied that they have some input in to it and they're satisfied with it.

In respect to the problem with wolves; the depart ment is aware of that problem. There is some control program that has been ongo i ng, but in respect to com pensation for actual li vestock loss. there hasn't been such a com pensation program in the past and I don' t think there's anything conte mplated this year. MR. CHAIR MAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): 9. (b) ( 1) Sal aries-pass; 9. (b )

(2) Other Expenditur es pass; 9.(b)

(3) Gr ant Assistance-pass - the Mem ber for Min nedosa. MR. BLAKE: Who does the Grant Assistance go to? Is that just one gr ant paid out or is it smaller grants payable to several wildl ife groups? MR. MACKLING: There's two grants in volved. Three thousand doll ars goes to Man itoba Nature Magazine and the Delta Waterfowl Research Station; $3,000 to the Natur e Magazine and $1 ,000 to the Delta Water fowl Research Station. MR. BLAKE: How do we subscrib e to the nature magazine or is it provided? MR. MACKLING: The $3,0 00 is to cover the costs of the di stribution of that magazine through the schools. MR.

BLAKE: I see. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Radisson. MR. GERARD LECUYER (Radisson): Mr . Min ister, are these public ations you just referred to publi ca tions of the department?

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 MR. MAC KLING: No , Mr. Chairman. MR. LECUYER: Am I gi ven to understand, Mr. Min is ter, that these are publi shed then by the private sector? MR. MACK LING: Mr. Chairman, they are publi shed by the Mani toba Natural ist Socie ty and they're consi dered to be a very excellent pamphlet or public ation for educational purposes and, therefore. the depart ment funds the di stribution through the schools. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Mi nn edosa. MR. BLAKE: Are they bili ngual, Mr. Chairman? MR. MACK LING: No, monsieur. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for ln kster. MR.

SCOTT: Just for a point of in formation for the mem bers present, those who aren't aware of the mag azine, it's just been going for one year no w. The mag azine is put out by the Mani toba Zoological Society and the Mani toba Natural ists Society together. It won, I bel ieve it is three in ternation al awards for both the comp osition of the photography and excellence and it is now rated as one of the top magazin es of this sort in Nor th America, let alone in Canada itself.

It is just a fi rst-rate magazine and if the mem bers are int erested in subscri bing, which I took that note from the Memb er for Min nedosa, the add ress, I belie ve is Room 214 , 19 0 Ru pert Street in the Man itoba Museum of Man and Natur e Building and I am sure that they would be most happy to see more subsc ri ptions come through. MR. BLAKE: Yes, lik e most thing s, Mr. Chairman, it's nice to sort of sample the product before one gets in volved on a financial expenditur e. I migh t add, while we are on this par ticular set of Estima tes, Mr.

Chair man, at one time mem bers of the Legisla ture were provided with free access passes to the Provincial Parks but I do n't kno w whether it was the restraint program of four or five years ago that put an end to that progr am or not. I was just wond ered if maybe the Min ister was considering reinstating that benefit for the memb ers. MR. MACK LING: Mr . Chairman. I will accept as rea sonably just criticism that we should have had a copy of that magazine here or last year's copies for the mem bers to see what is being voted here.

I will accept that as criticism, we'll see that copies are avai lable to the mem bers. In respect to the other observation about free passes, I'm not enthusiastic about that at all. I think we have to set an example to our taxpayers and show them that we're not looking for anymor e freebies than what we get alr eady - probably cut back on those. MR. CHAIR MAN: 9.(b)(3 )- pass. 9.(b )

(4) Big Game Comp ensati on - the Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. ENNS : There were some things that I did n't suc ceed in during my tenur e in office and I kn ow the 680 Honour able Memb er for Ste. Rose is too mode st to bring up again, but after an exhaustive examina tion of a cow that got kill ed under questionable circums tan ces, I was sti ll unable to convinc e my department at that time to properly com pensate the honour able mem ber's constituent. I gl adly gi ve you over that assignme nt, Mr. Min ister, and hope that you will have more success then I had. You see I'm still work ing for you, Peter. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I guess we go to 9.(b)(4 )- pass; 9.(c ) (1 )- Salarie s-pass - the Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. EN NS: On Habitat Mana gement, Mr. Chairman, probably no other aspect of this division of the department's activities is mor e critical than hab itat management. I appreciate the way the geography of Man itoba is situated that we have ample opportun ities for the department and/ or goverments to in fl uence the management , the retention of hab itat, to impr ove the habitat in large portions of the province.

Certainly the eastern portions, central and nor thern portions of the provi nce but the truth of the matter is game, like man, has decided to settle in over-riding percentages in that south and southwestern portion of the prov in ce which also happens to coincide with the lar gest percentage of privately held land. Any serious mea sures that will successfully stem the erosion of habi tat, and to provide some hab itat ma nagement that will ensure the kind of game retention that I think all of us would like to see, has to come to grips with that. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I will not pretend that the pre vious admin istration was well on its way of solving some of these problems . I do indic ate to you that the Branch has some very specific proposals to put before you, ones certainly that I would have given very serious cons ideration to. There are a numb er of options open to a gove rnme nt, to a Minis ter in this instance and at different price tags. It depends entir ely on what resources a department can bring to bear but, Mr.

Chairman, it's even more critical, I suggest, as we start with this new admin istration, partly because of the annou ncements made just recently by your col leag ue the Min ister of Edu cati on, rural areas are fac ing 25 to 35 percent property tax inc reases in the coming year alone. I kn ow, Mr. Chairman, this is not new to the Mini s ter. The Min ister himself was well aware of this and having met with muni cipal officials on another matter where among other things the rising property taxes was a major concern. Mr.

Chairman, it's just not going to happen, when farmers and property owners faced with their own set of escalating costs; faced with the ever present cost price squeeze that rural people, farm people have to cope with; that the owner, the farmer, the owner of private property will on his own volition, in deed can be expected to set aside lands that could serve wild li fe in terests in a more benefi cial way for society as a whol e. Some program of recogni zing this, that has a mone tary gain attached to it, some relief of taxation will have to figur e in to this sooner or later.

Or else, we simply have to say that in south-central Manit oba, the pressures on wildli fe habit at will continue. You can not expect farmers to face 25 to 30 percent property tax incr eases and then not go out and drain I

Monday, 22 March , 1982 that last slough, knock down that last pile of bush in order for them to try to cope with their rising costs. I know, Mr . Chairman, that the department has worked out as I said, several, what I consider to be very sound programs. They have price dollar s attached to them of course. But, I would suggest that you at least expose them to your Cabi net to your caucas and allo w the government of the day to make a determi nation as to whether or not a start could not be considered. I make that appeal to you, Mr .

Min ister. in a very serious way because I think that the apparent pres sure of rising property taxes are simp ly going to make that more critical in the coming years. Mr . Chairman, I raise another matter related to the same subject. I think the government would be well advised to search out, to seek out any possi ble way of raising revenues to help pay for these programs.

The particular program that I had hoped to in troduce that was not voted in sufficient tim e to do so, was to take advantage of the willin gness on the part of man y natu rali sts, sportsmen and others int erested in wildli fe to make a dir ect contri bution by way of stamp pur chases. I am referring to stamp purchases that could be affixed to the li cences that in some jur isdic tions have proven extremely successful as a source of revenue to be dedi cated towards the main tenance of habitat and also, Mr . Chairman, as an attendant plus to foster in some ins tances some very excellent wild li fe artists.

I had envis aged that com petitions could be held for these stamps. In due course, there would be stamps for the major game species that are bei ng hunted whether it's a deer stamp or moose stamp or the duck and the geese stamps being, of course, the most im mediate ones that come to min d. It 's a program, sir , that you will find that a reason able amount of research work has been done on it with in the department.

I suggest that you look at it for these dif ferent reasons, but not the least of them bei ng you're going to have your troubles getting the necessary dol lars to put in to habitat programs and I can tell you that the reception by the outside organi zations, the Man itoba Game and Fish organizations, are extremely positive towards this suggestion. It was suggested to them at their annual meeting last fall in Neepawa that it was the government's in ten tion to move in this dir ection and I must say, Mr . Min ister, the suggestion was extremely well received.

So it seems to me that if you have an opportuni ty for private in dividu als, not necessarily just the sports men's communi ty, but as I mentio ned other in terested persons, these stamps could and should be of the hig hest qual ity. They, themselves, become coll ector's items and could in a less painful way than di rect taxes help contribute the resources of your department.

My only word of caution to you is that you then make sure you get some comm itment from your col leagues particu larly that fellow known as the Min ister of Financ e who has a tendency of liking to take all the revenues earned by substantial and solid and good departments like the Department of Natur al Resour ces and sneak all that mone y in to the back door of his Treasury. Then when we try to get a few doll ars back, it's lik e pulling teeth out of a hen's mouth. It 's pretty tough.

I think if some of our resource man agers could use some of those mon ies that they gather in, there could be a greater im media te cost benefit shown for 681 the mon ies col lected. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I offer you those two serious recom mendations, recomme ndations that obviously I had a considerable in terest in when it was my opportun ity to be in that position. They could be, in my jud gm ent, kind of exciting new in itiatives that one could expect from a new government. I just hope that you can use your powers of in fl uence with your cabi net colle agues to pursue that.

I want to assure you that the Offi cial Opposition will support you in a very substantial way in any moves in this dir ection. That includ es the Hon ourable Memb er for Minne dosa as well as the Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. Mr. Chairman, I put those cases for those two pro grams before you and in vite any comment you migh t have on them. MR. MA CKLING: Mr . Chairman, I thank the honour able mem ber for his remarks. Certainly the concern for the retention of wildli fe habit at is shared by me as Min ister, by the department, by the associations he has referred to.

I kn ow the gam e and fish associations have alr eady, at least the major one in Man itoba, the Manit oba Wildli fe Federation, has alr eady ind icated to me their enthusiasm for the protection of wildli fe habitat, their concern in respect to the retention of Crown Lands where ind icated to be desir able wildli fe habitat and they did ind icate that they were prepared to see more charge being made di rectly to the hunter, to the user, to develop additional lands for wildli fe habitat. There is a concern, of course, that these lands once acq uir ed have to be recognized to be mul ti-pur pose lan ds.

They are excellent for wild li fe habitat. They also provide recreational opportun ity for people who not only hunt, but take educational tours, natur e walks. There are many , many things we've talked about before; berry picking, mushroom picking, bir d watching. Some people think of these things ligh tly, but there are many in our society who have a genuine affection for nature as it is, unspoiled, and like to enjoy nature.

One of the concerns that we would have to protect agai nst is the concept, particu lar ly of hunters who were buying the stamps, that they would n't feel a paternal or proprietary int erest in respect to the wild li fe hab itat land s themselves. I don't suggest that's necessarily the case, but that can be the psychologi cal result. I think as govern ment, we have to be concerned about the preservation of treed area and surface water area, wet area, to preserve our ecology and as part of the preservation of our ecology, we're preserving wildlif e.

In other words, our focus is not lim ited to the preservation of wildli fe habit at simply for pr eserva tion of wild li fe. It seems to me it has to have a multi focus as well because as I'd indic ated earlier when we were di scussing Estima tes in respect to water supp li es, there is a relationship between groundwater and surface water. So therefore, those that are advocates of retainin g more wet lands for the protection of waterfowl breeding places and rearing places, in di rectly provide and protect against the concern for groundw ater suppli es.

So, it is also those who argue strongly for the retention of more wooded area and not the blind or ir rational clearing of marg inal lands

Monday, 22 March, 19 82 for marginal ag ricu ltural purposes; in their desire to protect area for wildlife are protecting also in connec tion with the preservation of a natural storage area for water that is accumu lated either through rain or snow gradually bei ng released into our system, in to the order that nature has provided.

So, in our approach to the concerns for wildli fe habitat, I think we have to have a broad view as to what is needed and we have to look at areas where perhaps there has been a removal of forest cover for marginal farming operation and determine whether or not we can't get more return of the forest cover in areas where perhaps it should never have been removed and is merely causing problems and accentuating problems in respect to dr aina ge and flash floods and all that sort of thing.

So I can assure the honour able mem ber that I, as Min ister, and I'm sure my col leagues, are going to be looking at this area with int erest in respect to the problem that retention or return of lands to wildli fe habit at occasion for municip al financing.

I share that problem and we certainly are concerned with it and as I ind icated in my remarks during the Throne Speech, I think in our assessment polic y whenever that review is completed, we'll have to look and determine whether or not it's not possible to exempt forest lands and wet lands from taxation because if we did that then there would n't be the same anx iety to strip every last li ttle piece of bush or to drain every last pothole in order to get further inc ome.

No one faults the modern-day farmer given the kind of cost squeeze he's in from trying to develop the most from his land; you can't fault him at all.

However, we have to look, as I've indic ated, at these thi ngs in a broad perspective and hopefully we will be in a position to provide some lon g-term answers or some lon g-term programs that will tend to reverse the destruction of our wild lif e habitat and our wetlands that has gone on for a long long time, not in any design to hurt our ecology, but in a desire to provide the most from our agricultu ral base and we have to take a lon ger, more effective and more reasonable look at what we're doing with our natural resources. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is on another subject, but the Memb er for Turtle Moun tain had to leave and he just wondered when the capital plans would be tabled. I bel ieve the Mini ster said they would be ready Mo nda y. MR. MAC KLING: No, that was last Mo nday, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure they're available now, are they not? MR. BLAKE: Yes, that's fine, Mr . Chairman. I just wanted to make a comment.

I certainly support the remarks of my colleague from Lakeside and I'm gl ad the Mi nis ter is taking notes on that because I think it's not only an excellent source of revenue, but revenue for a specific purpose, and I don't feel the wild li fe management people or the hunters themselves will mind paying, you kn ow, when you consider you'll travel many many mi les to hunt pheasant and find they cost you $60 or $70 apiece.

You're not going to worry about paying a few dol lars for a stamp, c.nd I would sug gest further to the Mi nis ter that to make 682 them com pletely acceptable maybe when he does come out with a stamp that they be col oured blue probably rather than orange and black. It may help them sell a little better. Mr. Min ister, under habitat man agement in my area and the road allo wances that are unused are excellent wildli fe habitat naturally and the adjacent road on my particlar farmland runs for about a mile -and-a-half.

I think there's no need for a road there at all and it's an excellent cover for wildli fe, but in some areas I notice they have the con notation, the conservation corridor, and the countryside is plastered with great beautifully colour ed blo ody sig ns. Now the deer don' t kn ow that's a conservation corridor. It's a bush for them to dive in to for a li ttle safety and refuge. What does this sign program cost us? Could somebody give me an idea of what the cost of all these signs were? MR. MACK LING: Mr .

Chairman, I'm not conversant with what signs are referred to, and I'm certainly no expert on what the deer recogni ze as a di rectional sign. On that point though, I might add that the department, I belie ve, has had some success with reflectors in dis couraging deer from crossing high ways where there has been heavy deer crossings and a large numb er of fatalities. MR. BLAKE: That is a shame; I think you're right.

The reflectors have been effective and I suppose there are areas where maybe mor e of them could be used, but the Min ister might just have someone take a bit of time and find out the cost of that sign program for my in fo rmation. It would be interesting to have because while it's nic e to designate those areas, I'm sure it's been a pretty costly program. I'm not too sure the expenditure is justified by the ... MR. MACKLING: You may be right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnk ster. MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairmn.

I'm very enlig htened to both with the Min ister's response and the Member for Lakeside's tone of his question and the commen ts. I think that Habi tat Mana gement is certainly one of the key aspects of both with Wildli fe Management and in general just with the whole con cept of mai ntai ning some of the natural animals and bi rds that have habited our province and for the future. One thing I think many can be cogn izant with, and I don't know if there's any mem bers here that are old enough to remember, but the white-tailed deer is not a deer native to Man itoba.

It has come in and it mix es very well with a more open land and with man' s culti vation of fields and whatnot. The deer that was orgi nally here was a mule deer, and I' m wondering if the department has anything or if there's any possibili ty of reintr oduction, and I recognize this perhaps should have come up un der Wildl ife Mana gement, but it is because of habitat dis ruption that the mule deer are no longer with us.

I wonder if there any left in the province; fi rst off, when was the last one si ghted and is there any potential for reintroduction into areas of the provi nce or is it just too far gone because of the change in the habitat? I

MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the honou rable memb er is qui te rig ht, the whit e-tail was not the resi dent deer in the southern part of Man itoba. The white tail, I think, has been moving north, progress ing north. The mule deer, the last sighting accord ing to the department was in the Spruce Woods Park about 10 years ago. The problem with repopulating mul e deer is that apparently they don't com pete very well with the white- tai l, and it's not consi dered to be an advantage ous program to bring in the mule deer because you'd have a trade-off, I guess, in respect to the white-tail deer. MR.

SCOTT: Is that basis of com petition on simil ar food sources or is it that the mule deer has a di fferent manner about it especially in being subject much stronger towards hunting because when it does hear something, that's why they have the big ears? They stand there and move their ears around like a radar scope almo st trying to id entify the di sturbance that they have noted, be it in a bush or wherever, and set themselves up as perfect targets. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the mul e deer -t he feed is part of the problem but it goes beyond that.

The mule deer is probably more sensiti ve to depreda tion and although there are mule deer in Saskatche wan, they're in I think it's the Cypress Hills area -t he Greater Sand Hills - I'm sorry. MR. SCOTT: Yes, thank you. Next, I'd like to concen trate a touch on the idea of tax exemptions for agricul tural land or land that farmers have that is left in its natural state or restored to its natural state. I think in the past we've tended to take our wild lands or native lands as a basica lly free com modity and the natural or wildli fe that exists within them.

I don't think we can conti nue with that concept that just because they were there, they alw ays will be there, and it's not going to take some cost on behalf of society to maintain them, and I think that we have to start looking towards mechanisms. I think there are many of them. Some can be the stamp programs or plates and that sort of thing that can be sold through out the North American market. Others the tax exemption certainly is a dir ect in centive to the farmers and to the landowne rs, and not all the lan downers I migh t add necessarily are farmers.

I kn ow of some people that have gone out and bought land for the idea of preservation of the lands and I don't kn ow that they should be rewarded with giving them cheap land. I'm not saying that at all, but I think there should be some tax considerations for people who did that and recogni tion that if they turn around and sell the land for another purpose after wards that they would have to pay back the taxes that they were exempted in the years prior to it.

There's ano ther very great imp act, or system, that has a tremendous im pact on the destruction of mar ginal lan ds, and tha t's the quota system set up for Canadian Wheat Board. That system encou rages a farmer, if he has so many acres of land and he's get ting a basic quota, to be able to match it.

If he has a couple of bad years, he can then go in and take out some mor e marginal lands, and as long as he can 683 19 82 match his quota, if his own land isn' t producing the same vol ume any more, or if the land is becoming less productive, which some of our land soils people tell it is, then the pressure is on that farmer from econo mic pressure to move in to mor e marg inal areas. So, that land is cultiv ated at least and then he has the righ t to production up to a certain limi t.

His land may not produce up to that limi t but with the additional acreage and whatnot, he has a chance of getting a greater amount of production and therefore being able to sell it all at the full Wheat Board price. I think we have to start some serious negotiations with the Federal Wheat Board on this . I don't belie ve, and mem bers could correct me if I'm wrong, I don' t bel ieve oil seed crops should be covered under that at all. That would be something we'd have to work out between ourselves, the muni cipali ties, and the farm com muni ties.

One thing I'd lik e to see us, perhaps, undertake, and as the Min ister I'm particularl y pleased with his response in the general area along streams, I think that we have a very good chance now, because of the changing in the psychology, generally of the society, towards preservation of, not only our wildl ife, but also our ground water and our surface water, and the qual ity thereof.

I would lik e to propose that we consider starting to promote our river and stream corridors to try and encourage farmers to move back 25-50 feet from the edge of any river system and to plant that in trees that are naturally along those river systems.

I wish we could put elms in, but I'm afraid that's, probably because of Dutch Elm Dis ease, an unwise tree to plant, but we could perhaps look at more native plants such as the wil lows, sand bar wil lows and whatnot, and cottonwoods, of course, as wel l, and that the provinc e could look, through its Nu rsery Program, at providing the trees to the commun ity or to the farmers for planting and maybe even assist in the planting thereof by a summ er works program through STEP students or some such thing as that.

I think we've got to look very seriously at trying to promote, not only the re-establish ment of good habi tat lands to mai ntain assemb la nce of the quali ty of wildlif e and of the agricu ltural system as a co operative and a compl ementary, rather than a com petetive system necessarily and I think it is in credibly imp ortant when you think of erosion along the river systems and along the streams, where during floods with no extensive roots to stabil ize the banks, we're getting severe erosion in several areas now.

I've canoed along the Assinib oine, and particularly along the Souris Riv ers and you can really see in some areas where that has been a factor. So, I would lik e to leave you with that com ment, Mr . Min ister, of trying to promote a corridor system along our rivers and streams and encour age the farm com m unit y to move back 25 or preferably 50 feet from the edge of the river systems before they start their tilling of the land and their seeding. MR. MACK LING: Mr. Chairman, I just thank the hon ourable mem ber for those suggestions. They cer tainl y will be considered. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(c) (1) -pa ss; 9.(c)

(2) Other

Monday, 22 March, 1982 Expenditur es-pass; 9. (d)

(1) Salaries-pass; 9. (d)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 9. ( d)

(3) Grant Assistance p ass; 9.(e )

(1) Salar ies-pass; 9. (e)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 9.(1)

(1) Salarie s-pass; 9.(f ) (2 )- pass; 9.(f ) (3) -pass; 9.( g)

(1) Salaries - the Memb er for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: In the wild fur ind ustry, Mr . Chairman, firstly, perhaps just some statistical questions in terms of the scale and scope of the ind ustry in the year just passed, and then, Mr. Chairman, there has been in the last few years serious efforts undertaken by the Manitoba Trapp ers Assoc iation to regu late their ind ustry a lit tle more for cibly and to, I suppose, con trol, particu larly their means of selling and marke ting their furs; I' d appreciate if the Min ister has any inf or mation as to how successful they were?

I kn ow that they undertook several auction marts during the course of the year, I bel ieve some of them were in associa tion with the Ont ario Trappers Asso ciation as dis tinct from the trad itional way of selling furs in the Provinc e of Mani toba through one or two companie s. My understan ding is that has now in effect become one compan y with the Suda k people more or less not in the bidding busi ness. Any comment s the Min ister has with respect to this part of the fur ind ustry? MR. MACK LING: Mr. Chairman, this is a sig ni ficant ind ustry.

There are 17 ,000 people in volved in trapping and 3,500 of whom are in the north end of the pro vinc e; 13 ,500 in the southern portion of the provi nce. Their inc omes vary from very very li ttle to as high as $25 ,000; the main harvest is in beaver, mink, muskr at, lynx, fox, coyote and fisher. Twenty-two varieties are harvested com mercially, 90 percent of the crop is exported from Canada. The crop has a val ue of $10 mil lion in terms of raw fur and the staff gi ves me to understand that the multipli er value of that $10 - mil lion in come produces a total in come in the prov ince of about $50 mi ll ion.

The mar ket for raw furs, of course, fluc tuates in demand, it's a pretty volatile market. The market has been reasonably good this last period and there has been a pretty active ind ustry as a result. In respect to the in it iatives of the trappers; some, of course, as you kno w, have through the Trapping Association have developed a marketing plan wher eby they buy the fur by an ini tial pric e from the trapper. Its marke ting has taken place in Thunder Bay through the On tario market there and the result has been quit e favourable.

The department is encour aged by the success of this and certainly is supportive of the Trapping Association's ini tia tives and efforts in this respect. The department does have ongoing program, of course, conc erned with contin ued education in respect to development and growth of human e trap ping in respect to more humane traps employed in the ind ustry. Generally speaking the department has been in volved with con tinuing in itia tives to incr ease the pot ential and the worth of this segment of our natural resource ind ustry. MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister referred to the department's in volvement in various programs, par- 684 ticu larly ones dealing with development of more humane trapping methods. This has been an ongoing program with both federal and other provincial jur is dic tions in volved. I would ask the Min ister dir ectly however, because there are incr easing pressures in our society for the banning of one particular trapping method and that is the leg-hold trap. Action of that kind, I belie ve, has been undertaken by the provincial government in Br itish Colum bia.

I simply ask the Min ister whether or not he has had any opportun ity to think about the matter or whether or not he has any in tention of banning the leg-hold trap in Man itoba. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the department is not recommend in g to me the banning of leg-hold traps. There are certain areas of the province where, because of the nature of the trapping in volved, the leg-hold trap is probably the most effic ient and the only trap that is available that the in dustry can util ize with any degree of success.

However, the department is experiencing excellent co-operation with the ind us try in advan cing the use of the more humane traps and trapping techniq ues where it's possible to do so and I bel ieve that the ind ustry, the trappers themselves, are encour aged by the success that they can have in some of these traps, of course, dependin g on the terrain and the area they're trapping in. I'm advised that in the opinion at least of the department, the province contin ues to be a national leader in the humane trapping field.

The actions to mai ntain this effort in clu de: contin uation of mechan ical and laboratory testing of new devices; assistance to in ventors of humane traps; expansion of the exper im ental tr apline systems for field testing new in ven tions and techniques; the formulation of a co-operative fie ld testing prog ram in northwestern Canada; conti nuation and expansion of educational efforts for the general publ ic; and a lead role in the development of the Fur In stitute of Canada in volving both public and private sectors to co-ordinate humane trap develop ment and rationalize the entir e wild fur ind ustry.

MR. ENNS : Mr. Chair man, I assume the item under (g)

(3) Gr ant Assistance of some $30,000 which is the same predi cted for the com ing year as was spent during the past year is essentially the grant that is provid ed by the branch to the Manit oba Trappers Associa tion. Is that correct? MR. MAC KLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, a review of the royalty structure that Man itoba imp oses on the furs so harv ested I think is long overdue; partly because of the in equities within the structure, partly because a rigid structure doesn't allo w for the volati le market situa tions .

A fur that is worth $40 one year can be worth $80 next year depending on the dic tates of the designer s and the fur salons of Paris or London or Montr eal or New York, wherever, and our system of charging roy alties doesn't cope with that. I've held to the belie f that it was possible fo r a substantial upward revision in those royalties, one that is more flexible that takes in to consi deration more the market value of the fur rather than the par ticular species from time to time and in doing so, it

Monday, 22 March, 1982 would generate consi derably more mone y which, in my judgm ent, could and should belong at least in part to the trappers and their association themselves, allo wing themselves a li ttle bit more ind ependence if you like from governm ent grant assistance, allowing them to pursue the kind of programs that they in their wisdom feel are of benefit to their associati on.

I appreciate the Trappers Association as such because again of geog raphy, the kind of trapping that takes place, it isn' t all that homogeneous a group, but non etheless there is what I would call your serious trappers who are and have been working di li gently in this dir ection. I make particu lar reference to their president, Mr. Gilb ert Ducharme, who has worked very hard in this area and has been certainly a leader in trying to develop better ma rketing methods, better P.R. for the Trappers Association themselves. I hold out to you, Mr.

Min ister, the possi bili ty of assessi ng the royalty structure currently in place and without necessarily im pacting on your Estima tes, allowing for substantial additional doll ars, that would change accord ing to the market dic tates from year to year, but some additional mon ies that could flow to the Mani toba Trappers Association as a result of this change in your policy. It 's a matter that I think bears serious study.

I think any imme dia te comparison, for in stance, to the royalties earned, say, from the furs we trap in Mani toba as com pared to other ju risd ictions particula rly On tario, would lead you to bel ieve that this could be done. In any event, Mr . Chairman, I encour age the Mi ni s ter to gi ve this li ttle

section of his department his attention. I can't avoid but saying the obvious, while we have man y people in the fur trapping busine ss for whom the revenue earned is only maybe a small part of their total in come, but we do have many particu larly in Northern Manit oba, many Native people, for whom the trapping is very much the major source of revenue, their major in come.

For those reasons, very often in areas where there are precious few alternative economic opportun ities available to these people, any conti nued in terest on the part of the Min ister and attention on the part of the department with respect to the fur in dustry in Man itoba will be welco me. MR. MACK LING: Mr . Chairman, the honou rable mem ber is qui te right in his com ments in respect to the need for review about the royalty struct ure and Mr. Carter and I did meet with mem bers at the Trappers Association and these observations were made to us.

The department will be looking at a review of the royalty structure because the anomal ies that the honour able memb er referred to are certai nly present, gi ven the fact that, for exam ple, the royalty on a badger pelt is one penny and on an otter pelt it's a dollar and a quarter. These royalties have been in effect since the Forties some time and I think they should reflect the value of the fur, and certainly in any revised royalty structure, it could ensure that the funding that does go to the Trappers Association would be assured.

I don' t think there's any question but that we want to see the ind us try prosper and the royalties will be looked at and I hope there will be adjustments made. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:30. We'll pass this and then it won't be necessary for the resource people to come back. You still want to talk on this? We'll in terrupt for Private Mem bers' Hour. The commit tee will reconvene at 8:00 p.m 685 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS, ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEAL TH MR. CHAIR MAN, Jerry T. Storie, {Flin Flon): The meeting will come to order.

We're conti nuing with the Department of Northern Affairs, Envir on ment and Workpl ace Safety and Health. We're worki ng on Item 3, Local Gove rn ment Development, 3. (c)

(1) Salar ies and Wages. The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHERM AN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On Fri day at the conclusion of the di scussions as the House rose for the week, my colleague, the Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo, had been asking the Min ister some questions about the situation with respect to water levels and safe water and the lik e in various northern com mun ities, and there was some fairly wide ranging dis cussion on the subject of Cross Lake and the experience there and the needs as seen by my colleague and by the Min ister.

They may in deed or other mem bers of the comm ittee may inde ed, be in tending to pursue that particular question further, Mr . Chairman, but I wanted to ask the Min ister about water in a more general way with respect to the north and northern com mun ities and I presume that my question would logically fall under this lin e in the Estima tes, Co mmuni ty Works. If not, you and he, Sir, can dir ect me as to where the subject can and should be discussed. Mr .

Chairman, as the Honour able Minis ter of Northern Affairs, Envir on ment and Wor kpla ce Safety and Health will know from his col league, the Min ister of Health, one of the most fundame ntal problems that we face in Manit oba in terms of gen eral health and raising the level of health standards and health status is the conti nuing battle that any government of this province of any stripe wages on the in fant mortality rate.

One of the big chal len ges fac ing the Min ister of Health is always the anomaly that arises from the fact that the in fant mortality rate for the province which is relatively impr essive in the south - I use the term "relatively" because I suppose one never has one's in fant mortality rate down as low as one would like - is very di sturbi ng and alarming and con tinue s to be extremely serious in Northern Manit oba particularly in Native com mun ities and remote commun ities. I do n't have the figu res in front of me at this moment, Mr.

Chairman, but my experience as Mini s ter of Health was that we came in to office with an in fant mortality rate in Ma ni toba of approxima tely 20 deaths per 1, 000 li ve bir ths which is unacceptable. An indus trial ized society should be look ing at an in fant mortality rate of no more than 14 and the id eal, not wit hstanding the fact that I suppose the real ide al is O, the ideal in real terms is 10 ; most indu stria liz ed civ il ized modern societies strive very hard to try to get their in fant mortality rate down to 10 and keep it at 10 . We made some signif icant progress in four years.

I know that the previous government made some pro-

Monday, 22 March, 1982 gress too, because our in fant mortality rate in Ma ni toba was onc e much high er than 20, but we made some very significant progress of which I was particu larly proud to have been able to play a small part at least as Min ister and got our inf ant mor tal ity rate down to about 14 which is, as I say, relatively good. I think that all of us should be strivi ng to move those four units further and get it down to 10 , to get it down as low as we can, but certainly the imme di ate objec tive is 10 , and we should all be work ing towards that.

Thanks to some chi ld-maternal health programs that we've put in place and some specific expertise through the persons of two or three doctors in particu lar who took over and headed up In fant Mo rtality and Peri natal Mo rtality Programs particula rly at the two main teaching hospitals, and some adju ncts that were added such as a High Risk Newborn Transpor t Pro gram, et cetera, we succeeded in bringing that in fant mortality rate down as I say to approxi mately - I think it's now about 14 deaths per 1,0 00 liv e bir ths for the province.

However, Sir, I think that I'm correct in saying that the rate in the north is still, particula rly in Native commun itie s, around the level of 20 which is simpl y not acceptable and contin ues to be di sturbing and alarming. That is a target on which we should be working with all dil ige nce and in a non partisan way.

I raise it at this junc ture with specific reference to the Min ister of Health because the Minis ter of Health, no matter who he is or who she is or what stripe of government he or she represents, will never succeed in achieving the objectives that we want to achieve in the health status of Man itoba and Man itobans until we get that northern in fant mortality rate down and under control.

The first and most necessary fundam ental in itiative and und ertak ing in working towards that target and in ulti mately attaining achievement of that target is a safe and clean water supply in those com muni ties that do not have such at the present time . I had occasion to have a numb er of dis cussions last year with several representatives and spokesmen fr om northern com mun itie s during the meeting in the Northern Association of Com muni ty Councils which was held in Winn ipeg, of course, in Aug ust of 19 81 .

At that time a numb er of in di viduals from specific com muni ties brou ght this problem specifica lly and this challenge specif

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-18a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 18a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	967dacbcbc406df7935a53337d899bb222043143

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