VOL. 2 SECOND SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: .. 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 1983 NO. 4

March 9,1983 Tape No. 138 ah-1 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON.HEMBERS: MR.MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Hear, hear! I have to apologize to my colleague in the Opposition for not having a prepared statement but I discussed this matter with him just before the House opened.

I want to report to the House of Assembly the fact that a few days ago national media reports indicated that the Sea Shepherd, on an expedition from Portland, Maine,to our waters off Newfoundland, had left Portland, Maine,with the expressed intent of coming here to obstruct the activity of our sealers,which would mean the obstruction of an economic activity in the waters within Canada. At the same time they expressed the intent that they would carry out, if necessary, the ramming of vessels legally and properly licensed by the Government of Canada to take

part in the seal fishery. In these national reports carried by the press media,there was ah indication that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation had assigned a crew to be onboard that vessel, the Sea Shepherd. I just could not believe that was true,so I wired the President of CBC and I- SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! .. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if I could make this statement in silence. Mr. Speaker, I wired the _c:ec .. J?resident, Mr. Pierre Juneau,with a copy to the executive producer of the Journal in Toronto,and with a 317

March 9_,1983 Tape No. 138 ah-2 MR.MORGA~: copy to the head of the CBC television here in Newfoundland to get some clarification of these national media press reports. Well, Mr.Speaker, I have now been advised in a telex received from Mr.Starowicz who is indeed the executive producer of the CBC national programme the Journal, and he has confirmed to me that there is indeed a CBC television crew onboard that vessel at the present time. The CBC television crew was assigned from St. John's by the TV programme Oh Camera,so Mr . Starowic ·Z telJ,.s me, a television crew assigned by CBC from St.

John's • They travelled to Portland , Maine, and are stationed aboard that vessel now enroute to Canadian waters for the expressed intent of ramming vessels, as I mentioned, that are licensed to take

part in their proper legalized activities. I further confirmed the reports that were carried in the other media that the Journal was also involved,and Mr. Starowicz has confirmed as well in his telex to me that the Journal is involved to the point of having established aboard that same vessel specalized technical TV equipment for the purpose of carrying out direct interviews with that vessel if found necessary and if warranted in the view of .the Journal. In a telephone conversation with Mr.Starowicz I questioned what he thought might be . the special kind of circumstances that would warrant an interview with the vessel and it was made quite clear, 318

March 9, 1983 Tape 139 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: well, the possible or potential event of the Sea Shepherd ramming a Canadian vessel. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I view this incident very seriously because here is a situation where the Government of Canada has expressed sincere and positive support for an economic activity carried out by fishermen, Canadians residing in Newfoundland, in this case, the sealers; at the same time, a Crown corporation· which reports to the same government is spending taxpayers' dollars to aid and abet this kind cf activity carried out to obstruct this same economic activity which is supported by the Federal Government of Canada. Now, Mr.

Speaker, further, I just could not beli~ve this morning - and I listen to the CBC news media regularly - when the time was taken to make a call to the vessel from the Morning Show in St. John's to talk to a Mr. Watson, again to get some clarification of his intent. Again it was made known that if necessary they would ram the vessels but hopefully not to cause any personal damage or.personal injury. Mr.

Speaker, further, the CBC left the encouragement to all their listeners throughout the Province that maybe go to Signal Hill and you could see this great incident of the Sea Shepherd coming in to ram one of our vessels, one of our Newfoundland based sealing vessels. And, Mr. Speaker, I can imagine that I probably will not be exposed on CBC, I will be invisible in the next while on CBC, I know that but, Mr. Speaker, the fact is it is indeed a very serious matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR.

MORGAN: It is a very serious matter because if governments ffiisuse the taxpayers' dollars they 319

March 9, 1983 Tape 139 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: will be called into account by the public. And I am saying that if the taxpayers' dollars are going to be misused and spent irresponsibly by a Crown corporation, they should be called into account as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: And, Mr.

Speaker, I have asked the President of the CBC, and asked him in all sincerity, to arrange to remove that crew because these protesters survive and thrive on the kind of media coverage given to them by people like CBC, and their expressed cause is to come in here to obstruct Canadians living in Newfoundland from earning a living. Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope you will listen to my request on behalf of this government here and immediately remove the activity now onboard that vessel of having CBC taxpayers' dollars used to aid and abet the activities of the protesters. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Fogo . Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I hope that that vessel that we send through the Narrows is big enough to take on the Sea Shepherd, that is all I have to say. If the people who protest the seal hunt are ready to declare war on us,then let us have one. That is what I say to them. Now, Mr. Speaker, in replying to the minister, my conviction has always been perhaps that we should try to ignore the seal protesters in their media efforts. That has been my conviction, beca~se we are perhaps in a war that we cannot win with them.

But it 320

March 9, 1983 Tape 139 EC - 3 MR. TULK: becomes increasingly difficult to ignore and I agree with the minister, it 321

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 140 MJ - 1 MR. B. TULK: becomes increasingly difficult to ignore the kind of things that are happening in this Province today when we are sending our own Canadian media people to indeed aid and abet the protesters who are on that boat. MR. J. MORGAN: Incite the protesters. MR. TULK: Perhaps incite the protesters. To add insult to injury, Mr.

Speaker, I understand from the min~ster and I understand from reports that I am hearing that what we are going to see is a programme on The journal to try and convince I do not know what they are going to try,but I suspect that once they see that gory mess off the Narrows here in St. John's harbour, we are going to see this show on The Journal across Canada -where we hope to develop some markets for our seal products. Now, Mr.

Speaker, v1e went through this today in a meeting and in keeping with. our efforts to back the sealers,and . indeed back the Newfoundland seal hunt,we on this side of the House today sent the following telegram to Francis . Fox, Minister of Communications in Ottawa. The text of the telegram, if I can have the permission of the House to read it, is ·: 'As the minister responsible for communications in this country under whose mantle is included the CRTC, I wish to hereby protest the assignment of a CBC camera crew on board the protest ship Sea Shepherd operated by Greenpeace.

Greenpeace · is one of the groups primarily responsible for the international damning and racial slurring of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. To have a camera crew on board that ship whose sta~ed intention is ramming any sealing vessels attempting to leave St. John's Harbour this year constitutes a declaration of war upon the Newfoundland people, and to have that 322

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 140 MJ - 2 MR. B. TULK: camera crew paid for by taxpayers money and the hard earned dollars of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians is a little too much to·ask the people of this Province to accept. Do you not think it an ironic tragic paradox that the salaries of this very same CBC camera crew came from the very pockets of the sealers who are being crucified by this Greenpeace group and its lackeys? I demand that you have the CBC order that crew off that vessel and further that CBC apol~gize to the people of this Province for this affront.' SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

TULK: Let me assure the House .and the g?vernment and the sealers association in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that indeed we support their efforts and that CBC camera crew should perhaps be taken off the Sea Shepherd and put in this House so we can get better media coverage of the people's business of this Province. . Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Are there any other Ministerial Statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) when he expects to bring down the Budget? DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: MF. Speaker, I expect to bring in the Budget on behalf of the administration on Thursday the 17th. 323

March 9, 1983 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 140 Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. MJ -3 The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Me. Speaker, I wonder if the hon . gentleman could tell the House - MR. B. TULK: You have him all shaken up again now. t.ffi. NEARY: No, I have not. I am delighted to hear that. In vie\>1 of the statements made recently by an offical of Moody's,I would think that the 324

March 9, 1983 Tape 141 PK - 1 MR. NE ARY: han. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) would be well-advised to bring down an early budget because our credit rating is in jeopardy. And not only that,but maybe the Province is on the brink of financial ruin according to the statements made by the MR. BAIRD: According to you. MR. NEARY: - no, by the officials of Moody's. Mr.

Speaker, what does the Minister of Finance - a supplementary - what does the Minister of Finance have to say abou t a question that was put to the representative of Moody's, Ms Freida Anchorman, in connection wit ,h the future development of Newfoundland which depends to a great extent on the current negotiations between the Province and the federal government over ownership of offshore resources?

Does the hon. gentleman think that the failure of the administration to fulfill their mandate, to negotiate an agreement on offshore, will affect the credit rating or the borrowing of this province in the weeks and months ahead? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker , . The han.

Leader of the A supplementary. ·Would the han. gentleman care to tell the House if the government have reached their target, their objectives in connection with the increases in the retail sales tax or were the ministers measures counterproductive and that we will end up the current fiscal year with a severe deficit in current account ? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. 325

March 9, 1983 Tape 141 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: I think I will have a very full answer to the han. member's question next Thursday . MR. NEARY: We look forward to it. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mount?ins. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Could the minister advise the House if there are any medical surgeons presently on staff at t~e Melville Hospital in Goose Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, there is a medical surgeon who is away for a couple of days on a short leave, but there is also another medical person there who has surgical capability. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: Mr. ·speaker, my supplementar;: - the medical surgeon who is away for a couple of days, I might advise the minister,is away for three ,weeks or more- could the minister advise in the case of emergency surgery at the present time what is the intention of the Department of Health in conjunction with the hospital to deal with those patients who will require surgery within the next three· weeks? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am given to understand that the surgeon who we a~e being questioned about will be back in a coup~e of days.

AnTway 1 the fact of the matter is that 326

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 142 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: with regard to any emergency that requires attention, our emergency ambulance programme will take care of getting people to proper facilities. I have been in contact with some people there and there seems to be no problem at this point in time. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. member for Mr. Speaker, just a few minutes ago, about ten minutes ago, I spoke to ~he administrator of the hospital, Dr. Dyson, and he advised me that the medical surgeon will be away for at least three weeks.

So I will give the minister that information. Now, could the minister advise why have officials of the Department of Health advised the hospital in Goose Bay that the six people that the hospital in Goose Bay has suggested either be transferred to St. John's or St. Anthony,as an emergency will and could possibly develop within the next three week while this medical doctor is away, that they have to pay the first $500 and thereafter th.e government will pick up 50 per cent of the remaining cost?

Why is this stipulation placed on those six individuals who it is considered . ~ ...... ~- will be emergency patients before the doctor returns? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE : . Mr . Speaker, th.e han. member should be advised what the definition of an emergency is. An emergency is a thing that occurs immediately and we take care of that sort of thing. This kind of thing 1 there. is preparation that can be made in advance. we do have, of course, a policy that we will pay after the first $500 i we will subs-idize any persons who have any higher costs than that.

And this is a policy whether it' is- in Labrador or St. Anthony or any other part of the Province. MR. WARREN; Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. :3'27

March 9, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Tape No. 142 SD - 2 Supplementary, the han. member Mr. Speaker, I believe the minister is forgetting the whole point of my question and the seriousness that is involved, and perhaps life itself. Here we have s~x people, whom Melville Hospital has said will be emergency cases before the surgeon returns in three weeks. That doctor is taking the necessary action of sending those six patients out now before the emergency develops.

Now why cannot ~ the minister apply the same policy of having an individual patient pay the first $50 and let the government absorb the rest? Those six people will be emergency cases, the doctor has said that. Why cannot the minister use the ambulance programme and let these patients pay the first $50, not $500? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, you know, again I must go back and point out to the hon. gentleman that there is a procedure to get to a hospital if the doctor so deems - if the doctor determines an emergency, determines what an emergency is.

We have been dealing with the Director of the Hospital Services and at this point in time we have not been advised of an emergency. We have told him that we will give every assistance that we possibly can and I am sure we will do just that. If an emergency occurs we will look after it under our programme. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: to the Minister of He~lth. Supplementary, the han. membe~ - Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary , 328

March 9, 1983 Tape 143 JV - 1 MR. WARREN: ftas the Minister contacted the Newfoundland Medical Association, asking if there are any doctors in and around metropolitan St. John's who would kindly go to Happy Valley, Goose Bay, for those three weeks to avert any emergency that may develop? MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the Board of the Melville Hospital has the responsibility of the medical staff,of running the hospitals- They would be contacting the Medical Association but if they requested me to do it, I would do it on their behalf. MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young). The question I would like to ask about is the circumstances surrounding the Auditor General's report that $500,000 was spent over three . years for unoccupied space in the Murray Premises that was being renovated for a museum. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR.

YOUNG: I am sure the explanation is in the Auditor General's report.And I may add tha~ if the han. ---- : -- .:. -- .:-~=-..:....:.:..:.:._ --- gentleman was in the province 1 quite recently the matter was dealt ·- with "fer two or three days by the Public Accounts committee and I think it was all dealt with fairly and squarely and everying was honest and aboveboard. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Member for Eagle River. MR. KISCOCK:. Mr. Speaker, with regard to where I was, I was in my district storm bound. Also, the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Goudiel would have been there if he was attending the conference that he was invited to attend in Port Hope Simpson. 32'9

March 9, l983 Tape ~43 JV 2 MR. HISCOCK: The question I have to ask the Minister of Public Works is how come that we in this Province in these hard economic times - the y are stealing the widow's mite ,and the children~f this province on Social Welfare . - we are spending $500,000 on unoccupied space for a period of three years , when this was pointed out last year in the Auditor General's report: An extra $lOB, 000 ·has been spent since. Why is this,Mr. Speaker? Is it a fact the person who . - . ·-·- --.... owns this building is the chief fund raiser for the PC Party? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The han.

Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, may I add that I have nothing to do with the han. gentleman being storm bound, whatever he was .• · I will take it· upon myself, Sir, to send the hon. gentleman a copy of the Public Accounts with the full details all spelled out and the hon. member -- ·-.· -:-_.;:.:.,.. __ ·- - - -·· - can use his leisure time .. when he is ' .. storm bound again to read it. MR. SPEAKER: The fion. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementar~ Mr. Speaker.

The hon. gentleman should not treat this matter so lightly in thesevery pressing time, when taxpayers money is being ' ab~~ when the Auditor General sees fit to raise this matter in two Auditor General's reports, , This is the second time the --, gentleman has raised it Mr. Speaker, I understand, from the testimony the -hon. gentleman was talking about that was given to the Public Accounts Committee that there is a ve .ry serious conflict of interest situation that developed during -- -~ -- 330

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 144 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: that testimony r ·that the government has not done anything about, in connection with a director of that company who is leasing the premises down on the Murray Premises, a director of that company who is also a director of the MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The St .. John's Heritage. - the St. John's Heritage. Order, please! Order, please! I would suggest to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that he direct- -~ question. He is getting into a long

preamble, in essence making a speech. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I sat in the House of Commons recently and saw the same thing happen. MR. SIMMS: We ha~e our own Standing Orders. MR. NEARY: Is that so1 we have our own Standing Orders? But, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon . gentleman if he has taken it upon himself to investigate the possibility of conflict of interest between a director of the company who was responsible for leasing space in the Murray Premises, who was also a director of the St. John's Heritage Foundation, who made the recommendation to government that : .they use that space? investigated that? MR.

SPEAKER: and Services. MR. YOUNG: Has the han. gentleman The han. Minister of Public Works Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is a little bit off key or something because I never made any recommendation; that was done in 1978 or something. MR. NEARY: But you cannot deny it. MR. YOUNG: ' I cannot deny it, but I do not know anything about conflict of interest, and who owns the bui _ldings, But ·I did read the Public Accounts Committee's Report_and I thought it was very favourable and exonerated us in the Department of Public Works in every way. 331

March 9, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Tape No. 144 NM - 2 The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman does not understand the British system of parliamentary government. You do not say I am not responsible for somethin~. When you are a minister, and the han. gentleman is a minister, he is responsible for the actions of his predecessor. MR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: What did Mr. Mifflin say? Order; please! Mr. Speaker, I wish the representative of Newfoundand Telephone Company would just keep quiet. Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman said that he read the report of the Public Accounts Committee. Is the han. gentleman aware that the report of the Public Accounts committee has not yet been compiled? So how could he read the report of the Public Accounts Committee. That is still in the process. MR. SIMMS: Transcript. MR. NEARY: Oh, he read the transcript. He has not read the report, he read the transcript. Well that is a different matter.

Well then if the hon. ge~tleman read the transcript, he would have seen during the testimony that was taken that a director of the Heritage Foundation, who recommended to government that they rent space down at the Murray Pr-emises, was also a director of the leas .ing company of ~hich Mr. Ryan, the provincial co-ordinator fa~ the Tory Party, is president. Mr. Speaker, I am asking the han. gentleman if he has looked at the possibility of a conflict of interest in that situation? 332

March 9, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : .and Services. . MR. YOUNG: Ta pe No. 144 NM - 3 The hen. Minister of Public Works Mr. Speaker, I did read the report . I know it was not the report that was tabled in the House but I read the evidence that w;as given at the public hearin~s that transcript, and I feel that I do not have to questi<;>n the Director of the Heritage Coxrmittee or anything like that, no more than the hon. member is responsible. r. I·· c presume that he is washing his hands clear of the! Mifflin Report as far as I am concerned. You know 1I mean,I do not know anything about it. So that is all I can say, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eacrle River. 333

March 9,1983 Tape No. 145 ah-1 MR.HISCOCK: My question is also to the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr.Young). The Auditor General asked the question with regard to rented space why was it not fitted-up on a more timely basis rather than pa.ying$500 1 ooo· fOr UnOCCUpied Space fOr the periOd Of thirty- fiVe months?. Now that we have spent $500,000 on this and it is still not occupied,is the Minister of Puplic Works and Services going to have his officials and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) look into having some of this money reclaimed and brought back to the treasury of this Province? MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is beating a dead horse to death, that is all he is doing,because everything is explained in that report. The Department of Public Works did get a six month lease. AS· I understand from the officials who are doing up this museum it takes anywhere from four to probably ten years before the piace will be ready to be occupied.

And I do not know if any of the han. gentlemen over on the other side have any col~eagues or any friends of theirs who will give us vacant space to fix··up for five or ten years without paying any rent. If so I will gladly accept their offer. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : ' Hear, hear! MR.HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The han. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: The Minister of Public Works just said it may go on for six or ten years. Is so are we are going to continue to pay another $2 million or $3 million? Is that 334

March 9,1983 Tape No. 145 ah-2 MR.HISCOCK: what the minister is · saying? Under this government 1was a cost analysis done that we could provide space for this museum ? Why was it moved from the lJth floor anyway? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR.YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, wherever the hon. member was stom round he is not up with Newfoundland tiffies and,apparently he does not know nothing about Labrador.He was storm bound or something down there. If the hen. member would read it all he would know it takes at least six or eight years to prepare a place for a museum.

But I must tell the han. member that the place is ready to be opened partially sometime in June of this year. Things have been going ahead and the curator of the museum says that it cannot be ready until then. ' We had to pay for the space the minute we went in there to start renovating. The tender has been let and everything like that and it all should be ready. I am sure the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) can explain more about it. I do not know nothing about museums. Probably some of the other members will be over there in due time. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon.member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: The Auditor General ended up questioning the fact that it was rented. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, · hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.HISCOCK: The Auditor General questioned the fact that we ended up renting this under a $500,000 contract . instead of doing it more timely .Is the tender 335

M~rch 9,1983 MR· HISCOCK: Tape No. 145 ah-3 now sealed so that if it is done ·in six or ten years we will continue to spend this money and violate the Tendering Act, Mr.Speaker, or are we going to try to get some of this money back and - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SP EARER (R uss el l): Or de r, pl ~a se! MR.HISCOCK: - renegotiate? If it is going to take anothet" six years , another four months or another three years,are we going to renegotiate the contract so that it will be on a timeiy basis and not on the amount of months that is involved? MR.SPEAKER: The Minister of Public Works and Services. MR.

YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I understand the hen. member was a former schoolteacher , but he does not know anything about the heritage of Newfoundland and getting museums ready. It takes time 336

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 146 PK - 1 MR. YOUNG: Everything is all ready, we are all ready to go. If you want the answer to the question, we are all ready to go. In June it will be opened, although I think the second floor probably will not be opened for another couple of years. They have to get architects and stuff done, statues and clothing done. I do not know what they have to do. If I knew that I would be down there in charge of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: .. But, you know, as regards to getting money back, Mr.

Speaker, probably the only way that I can get money back is I have about 60,000 copies of Our Case and Canada's Happy Province. I might put them on sale and get a few dollars back, but that is all I can do, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A final question to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

HISCOCK: With regards to the tender for this museum, when we decided to move it out from the eleventh floor to the Murray Premises, was the possiblility of calling a tender looked at for some other space? Why was the Murray Premises itself picked? And was this put up on tender for this amount of space? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I understand there was a proposal put ·forward by the Newfoundland Heritage Foundation.that in order to preserve the building down there, the Murray Pr~mises, and to obtain a $500,000 grant from the federal government, they had to have an anchor tenant in 337

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 146 PK - 2 MR. YOUNG: there. And the government of that day, the Cabinet of that day in their wisdom said, 'Yes, we will: go ahead and we will rent space.' They felt it was advisable and this is what was done. The location, the Murray Premises would have been demolished, it was ready for the hammer and so forth. And if the hon. gentleman has any worries at all, and if he wants to go down there as a bellboy I will gladly get him a position down there so he can knock and hammer and talk to the statues. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Th~ hon. member for port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. ColJ,.ins).

In light of the Auditor General's assertion yesterday on the magnitude of the accrued liability of the four pension plans administered by the Province of $500.9 million, and the fact that the Auditor General stated that the future financial stability of these plans might be in jeopardy through the fact that the Department of Finance has been deferring the future pension costs that are accruing to the future, will the minister say if he is willing to submit these four pension plans to a commission for intensive study as was recommended by the Auditor General? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we are very conscious of the need to do something about the pension liabilities of this Province. I would remind hon. members that in 1980 we created a·pension fund that had never been created in this Province .before .. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ' DR. COLLINS: That was a very positive step. The last actuarial study was done in 1977. They are very extensive studies, they are quite expensive studies, they are done periodically, at roughly 338

March 9, 1.983 Tape No. 146 PK - 3 DR. COLLINS: five year intervals. So there will b.e another actuarial study done in the very near future because the last one was done in 1977 and it needs updating . MR. SIMMS: A good answer. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Port au Port. MR; HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 339

March 9, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Tape 147 EC - 1 The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, I understand according to the Auditor General that liability was estimated to be $500.9 million in 1977. I would like the minister to give some indication - he probably cannot give a specific figure-as to what that liability is at the present time.

And I would ask the minister at the same time whether he would consider the possibility of no longer making the provincial pension plan mandatory, because there is always the chance, or that leaves the opportunity for people who work in the civil service of this Province to take advantage of other pension plans such as those offered by the private sector. At the present time they are mandatory.

In light of the fact, that we have $81 million in the pension plan at the present ,time with .an unknown amount as a liability, would the minister consider that move, to make the Civil Service Pension Plan to be not mandatory? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: · Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any sentbrent in the public service that that be done, that the pension plan not be mandatory.

As a matter of fact, when plans are brought, as they have been, into the overall Public Service Pension Plan, the members can make an election to stay with their previous plan or come in under the umbrella plan, and to my knowledge there have been very, very few, if ~ny, who have elected to stay out of the Public Service Pension Plan. Up until 1980, the payouts ~or pensions was totally out of the Consolidated Funds. 340

March 9, 1983 Tape .14 7 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: Now most of the payouts are out of the pension fund that we have set up and I think the scheme is working very well to date. I am not saying that we will not find differences when this new actuarial study is done, I am sure we will. I cannot give any figure to it because the study has not been done, obviously, but to date I think our pension arrangements are as satisfactory as they possibly could be at this point in time. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell the House why his department continues to defer to the future pension costs that are accruing presently at such a significant rate? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am quite sure in saying this that no province in this country has a fully funded Public Service Pension Plan because the only way that you would not defer your payouts would be to have a fully funded pension plan. And I am absolutely sure on this point,that no prov~nce has a fully funded pension plan. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au· Port.

MR. HODDER: ' Mr. Speaker, the fact still rema'ins of a liability of perhaps $700 million or $8QO. million. The ,g?ver~ent has-~ liability~£ $500.9 million dating to April, 1977, to people who are presently in the public . - service. Would the minister tell me are there other alternatives to the current practice 341

March 9, 1983 Tape 147 EC - 3 MR . HODDER: of deferring these costs to the future? Has the minister considered any way that he can guarantee that the retirement incomes of employees retiring in the future are secure and that they are under no risk whatsoever ? Certainly, the figures here would give praise to 342

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 148 MJ - l MR. J. HODDER: one who is looking into the future. I might add that the pension plans across Canada generally are in ·trouble and under review. We are f~cing a larger and larger payout o~ those pension plans. Would he assure the House and the people of the Province that this will be looked into and their pensions are safe? DR. J. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member needs that assurance, I am sure that ·I can give it quite unequivocally.

Anyone in the public service or anyone who is depe~ding on the provincial government of this Province, if they are depending on the provincial government of any province,or if ~hey -are depending on the national government of Canada in regard to the pensions,I think they can be fully reassured that their pensions will be met in the future. I think what the member is getting at is what is the method of meeting it. The method can change ,and that is why we are going to have the study to see if we should change our method bit 1but there is absolutely no doubt that their pensions will be met by al~ governments. MR.

W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question or two for the Minister o£ Transportation (Mr. Dawe). It relates to the Auditor General's Report, page 25 and 26, Paragraph 36, Mr. Speaker , Continuing weaknesses in control over government air services and recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee not ~mplemented. "In previous Reports," Mr. Speaker, "the Auditor. General has commented on the serious lack of control by the Department of Transportation over the payment of publi~ funds"·- taxpay~s dollars - "for air services." 343

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 148 MJ - 2 MR. W. CALLAN: And the Auditor General,on page 26, goes on to talk about these weaknesses. So let me ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), Mr. Speaker, because I am sure the minister does not need any further background ·On it, in view of the Auditor General's serious and repeated recommendations, does the minister intend to bring about the necessary changes and controls that the Auditor General talks about regarding air services? MR. R. DAWE: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. S!_)eal:er. The hon. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, the department has done a number of things over the years to improve the accounting procedures with this and other aspects · of the department,but specifically as it relates to the matter the member from Bellevue (tMr. Callan) asked, it · is clearly explained in the responses, the departmental responses, to the Audit General's Report and it is there for him to read. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: them. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Yes, Mr.

Speaker, and I have read Now, let me ask the minister how does the minister expLain and how does the minister justify the Minute of Council, the minute of the lily-white Cabinet of May, 1982 1which said, 'no records be maint~ined,' even though the Auditor General on repeated occasions had insisted that accurate complete detailed records should be kept,especially when there are overpayments of hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayers money? 344

l-1arch 9, 1983 MR. W. CALLAN : . ' no records b.e Tape N"o . 148 MJ - 3 Tbe Cab~net says in Ma'y of 1982, maintained as to the purpose of flights or the passengers travelling on Governmen~ o\vned or Governmen~ contracted aircrafts . SUch policy to be effective henceforth. ' How. does the minister explain and j.ustify that Minute of Council, Mr. Speaker? 345

March 9, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): I MR. DAWE: Tape No. 149 SD - 1 The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated previously, the department's explanations to the Auditor General's comments are enclosed in a booklet that all members of the hon. Hous~ have,and I .am sure the hon. member has it and he has read it. And if that information is not suffici .ent, there is a procedure which he can follow to solicit additional information. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, in the vagueness of the minister's answers, there is a clear demonstration that here there is a cover-up. Let me ask the minister could he tell us how much of the $7 million - close to $8 million; $7,891,000- which was spent on air services was spent in last Spring's general election flying Tory workers and Tory candidates· around from one part of the ·province to the other~ Is · that the reason why the Premier and his Cabinet want to cover up? Is that why they are not documenting? Is that why? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister af Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, the anawer to that was so obvious that I heard it expounded from every · one .· of; my colleagues on this· side - zero. MR. NEARY: Final aupplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Final · supplementary, the hon. Leader of the :opp'?sit~on. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would li]{ .e to ask the Attorney General, the Minister of Finance (Pr. CollinsLt who is al~o Attorney General ~ PREMIER PECKFORD: ~ Attorney General. MR. NEARY: The. Minister of Fina .nce is not The Minister of Justice CMr. Ottenheimer}. 346

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 149 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: He did not know the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) ye·sterday, now it .is the Mjnister of Finance today. MR. SPEAKER '(Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if I was the han. gentleman I would be very worried that Mobil is going to thumb their noses at the han. gentleman, that they are not going to bring the rigs to shore. The han. gentleman knows that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order, please! The han. gentleman is testy.

The han. gentleman is so testy today because they are snuBbing their nose at him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Time for the Question Period has expired. ORDERS OF TB DAY MR. SPEAKER: Being Private Merriber~' Day, we shall proceed with. :Matton 18 to be lllOVed by the. han. :rnerijber for Fogo. MR. TULK: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: keep the Premier quite? MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : " MR. SPEAKER,: Mr. Speaker Oh., oh. Order, please! Mr. ,Spet;iker, could I ask you to Order, please! Oh., oh.. Order, please~ Order, E;>lea.s:e!

The Chair has recognized the han. merribez; f'or Fogo and han. members both to my left a.nd right seem to insist that he not be given the opportunity to speak. The hon. 11\ember for Fogo. 347'

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 149 so - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I suppose nobody need stand in this House and talk about the impo .rtance of a resolution on the fishery. It is probably our most important industry in the Province. It is our most imp0rtant industry in the Province bar none. It will be our most important industry in this Province for years to come and ·.'. 348

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 150 NM - 1 MR. TULK: perhaps forever, because Newfoundland was built on fish, and will continue to grow according to how the fishery goes. Mr. Speaker, I would like though to point out some of the statistics ~hat tell us exactly just how important the fishery is. If you look, as I did this yesterday, I think, Mr. Speaker, in the Throne Speech, and I will continue to SOME HON. MEMBERS~ Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, can we have some quietness, please! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, of our employed labour force in the Province, 23.9 per ·cent of it ~s in the fishery, employing approximately 30,000 to 35,000 people. If you look at the total catch value, Mr. Speaker, and try to figure out from that what the value to the Newfoundland economy is of the Newfoundland fishery, you can see that in 1979 the total catch value was $155 million, and in 198G it was $157 million. Mr. Speaker, there is a telling statistic in 1981; there is a statistic in 1981 which tells us that the catch value of our fish in this Province declined. Mr.

Speaker, it speaks for one of the things that we know is happening and that is that our fishery is being neglected and being run down by the present government. ·Mr. Speaker, I want to start off with the first "Whereas" in this resolution. I want to get into the first ."Whereas" in this resolution. We want and we are determined on this side that the Province will accept its resp~nsibilities. we are determined that the people of this Province will know what their responsibilities are.

The Premier can stand on the other side of the House all he .likes, he can sit in the seat all he likes and go on with nonsense about, "I do not have control of the stocks, therefore 349

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 150 NM - 2 MR. TULK: I do not have control of the processing industry." We know that that is nonsense. He does have control of the processing industry. It is the Minister of F~heries (Mr. Morgan), I will repeat it again, it is the Minister of Fisheries in this Province who decides whether a plant is going to close. It is the Minister of Fisheries who decides whether a plant is going to open. It is the Minister of Fisheries in this Province who issues and takes away processing licences. Let that be clear~ The minister has the ability to open and close a plant.

The Premier, as I said yesterday, came into the House and said, "Look, I have no control of the stocks, therefore I can have no control of the processing sector." Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a question that the Premier has to answer. Government from 1977 to 1983 has issued every processing licence in this Province, _every processing licence. They tried to keen one from St. Anthony but they qot the flick on that one; that plant was going to be open anyway.

And therefore they are responsible for every plant that is in this Province because you cannot operate, and there is nobody going to build a fish plant in this Province unless they have an operating licence, a processing licence. Those licences were issued by this governinent. So they are primarily responsible for the number of plants. And if there is an over capacity in the processing sector of the fishing industry,then the provincial ~overnment is responsible. They have to accept their share of · responsibility. They have to accept their responsibility for the number of plants in this Province.

They had jurisdict:ion then, M.r. Speaker, without stock control, _ they have jurisdiction now~ Let us not have any of that nonsense. 350

_!ll .• ___ _ March 9, 1983 Tape No. 150 NM - 3 MR. TULK : Let me point out something else. How ma ny times have ,.,e heard the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) stand in his place in this Bouse and threaten that unless certain processing companies did certain things he was going to take away their processing licences? Be was going to take away their processing licence. Nhy is he not saying to Fishery Products now , "U nless you open up the fish plant in Burin, if you close the fish plant in Burin," why is not the Provincial Minister of Fisheries saying, "I am going to take your licence. " t-1R. TOBIN: Why do not the federal government step in like they did in St. Anthony. 351

March 9, 1983 Tape 151 EC - l MR. TULK: Why is he not saying, 'I am going to take your licence?' We will get to the federal government ~ make no mistake about that, but your job is in this House. The minister's job is in this House. Make no mistake about that, the minister's job is in this House and you cannot hide behind smokescreens. And I do not believe the han. member will. I do not believe he is going to try. But this fellow down here has been hiding behind smokescreens for years. Mr. Speaker, let us see what is happening now. Let me paint a scenario for my friend, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin). Let me paint a scenario for him of what the minister is up to. I think he knows. What is the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) up to right now with the present crisis on th .e South Coast? Mr. Speaker, you can write the script. The minister is sitting in his chair here and in his office,and wherever else he happens to be,and they are saying, 'We are not responsible because we have no control of the stocks. We are co-operating with our federal colleagues.' Now, Mr. Speaker, just imagine that government co-operating with anybody, especially the federal government.

You can have the Premier stand up and say in one breath, 'That crowd up in Ottawa - should I say 'That French crowd in Ottawa?' - 'that crowd in Ottawa' and at the same time you have the Minister of Fisheries who 'says, 'Oh, yes, I am co-operatin~. I am co-operating with the Kirby Task Force.' Yes, he is. He _ goes · to Ottawa _, the Premier goes to Ottawa and he says ~o the' £ederal Minister of Fisheries, 'Now whatever you decide, that is quite alright with us. We will go along with it. Just let us know in a few days. All you have to do is just tell us what you are going to 9o.

Just let us know.' And the reason, Mr. Speaker, is 352

March 9, 1983 Tape 151 EC - 2 ' MR. TULK: quite clear. He has no plan of action himself. And now, the fellow that·says, 'that Ottawa crowd'is allowing them to grab their jurisdiction, to grab the jurisdiction of the Province because he does not want to deal with the problem. But that is not really what the Fisheries Minister is up to in this Province. That is not really what the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is trying to do. He is waiting for the restructuring of the Kirby Task Force.

This is how responsible he is being about this matter, this crisis that is on the South Coast, the crisis in the fishing industry. He is waiting for the restructuring that he thinks is going to come from the Kirby Task Force. And it is going to come. Then he is going to say, 'Well, I have co-operated. I went along, did the best that I could. I co-operated with them, indeed I did. But look what they have done~' He is trying to have his cake and eat it too and, Mr. Speaker, we are politicians in this House and that is politics, that is partly politics.

But, as we saw today, surely both sides of this House can agree on something that is of vital importahce 1 regardless of your political stripe can agree on something that is of vital importance to this Province. We did it today with the seal fishery, with the Sea Shepherd, with the CBC (dimera crews. But why is not the minister doing the same kind of thing? Why is he not presenting a plan to Ottawa, presenting a plan to this. Hou.se, and then saying, 'Alright, let us ask ·.fo.r support'? I asked him yesterday in the House if th.~re was one community in this Province that he was going to .allow to die.

I asked him was he against any fish plants closing in this Province and what fish plants. He refused to answer. And he is responsible for the 353

March 9, 1983 Tape 151 EC - 3 MR . TULK : processing industry, the shut -down and the opening up of plants in this Province . Mr . Speaker, I read today in the paper ,.,here the member for Burin - Placentia \'lest (l-1r. Tob'in) commented on centralization . . · 354

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 152 PK - 1 MR. TULK: He is absolutely right. Make no mistake about that: What we are seeing on the South Coast - what we may be seeing on the South Coast; we are not certain - what we may be seeing on the South Coast is the virtual elimination of whole communities moving them somewhere else, moving people out of their homes. That is exactly what we may be seeing. And yet that minister, that provincial minister refuses to do what has to be. done. It is certralization through the backdoor, make no mistake about that: The member is absolutely right.

But somebody has to tell this gentleman, this Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), to get off his rear end and to present a plan of action for the · processing sector of this industry, for the fishing industry in this Province. Rather than getting on shooting off his mouth all of the time on television and radio about some little'exciting issue, why does he not present a plan of action for the processing sector of the fishery to this House and have it debated? Then, Mr. Speaker, we will pick holes in it. That is what we are here for, to pick holes in it.

But if it is the kind of plan that is going to keep rural Newfoundlnad alive, we will agree with it. Make no mistake about that. He is playing politics, Mr. Speaker, and waiting for the Kirby Task Force so he can try to have his cake an~ eat it too. That is not good enough, because what he is saying is 'To hell with the South Coast! ·To hell with th~·people oS Newfoundland!' That is exactly what he is saying. Mr. Speaker, let me turn to the second

WHEREAS. I think the truth of the second

WHEREAS in this resolution is self-eviden,t. It says "WHEREAS the processing and marketing components of the industry are in the worst 355

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 152 PK - 2 MR. TULK: mess in the history of the Newfoundland fishery." Mr. Speaker, absolutely nobody can deny that 'the processing and marketing 'sectors of the industry are in the worst mess in the Newfoundland history.' Yet we have the most costly Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), I would say, in my opinion, that this Province has ever seen. He spends his time travelling. As a matter of fact, last Spring I stuck the name of the Harlem Globe Trotter on him. He should join th~ , Harlem Globe Trotters. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not believe that in all the efforts that minister has put out, if he has put out any - the Premier told us yester~ay he was worn out; even the minister got embarrassed, Mr. Speaker - I do not believe that that minister has sold a cod's tail, so to speak. I do not believe he has. I do not believe he has done anyt~ing to sell fish from this province.

The best that he can do when somebody reminds him that there is a crisis in the marketing sector of the industry is to stand in his place in the House or say to the media, mostly to the media, that if the fish companies do not perform then he is g9ing to act. Those are his favourite, word over and over and over. We have heard this Fisheries Minister (Mr. Morgan) for years stand in this .House and say, now if they do not do something, if the fish companies do not do something then I am going to act, and that gets the minister off the hook once more. Mr. Speaker, the third

WHEREAS of this resolution mentions some communitie ,s that are threatened probably on the South Coast of this Provin.ce - not all of them - and it does not mention all of the communities that are threatened in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker ., I have already said what is going to happen to those communities. 356

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 153 MJ - 1 MR. B. TULK: I want to do one thing in this House in this resolution today and that is to congratulate. and encourage the people from those communities - the people of Harbour Breton, the people of Fermeuse, the people of Burin, .st. Lawrence, Trepassey, Gaul to is, Ramea, Grand Bank and wherever else they are facing the closedown of an industry. I want to assure those people in those communities that we on this side stand behind them regardless of the restructuring of the Kirby Task Force whatever that might be - and I have no way of knowing.

Perhaps it is good that you do not know because we believe on this side of the House that their problems can be solved. We believe that the South Coast can become, over time ~erhaps, but can become a viable operating fishing community once again. Mr. Speaker, we say that for a number of reason~, we support and encourage those people for a number of reasons: First of all what is happening on the South Coast and in the rest of the communities in this Province is not something that is of the makings of the people, not that at all. -In 1977 we drew this line on the map and said that is. the 200 mile fishing limit.

All at once we thought that becaus~ we had drawn a line on a map that there were numerous fish stocks. We did not sit back and say, 'Well, look, we have to wait for those stocks to increase. ' We did not say that at all. We did not say that we Should develop the processing sector of the_ industry according as the stocks increase, not at all. We said, 'Everybody · is going to be rich, everybody get into the fishery,'' ·and they did.

Now the same government that issued th~· processing licen~es and the same government in Ottawa that made the DREE gra~ts available, the two fisheries ministers, f~deral arid'provincial, encourage the people of this Province to build plants, to build more boats, the same people, the same government in this Province that issued the processing licences and put our people in the state that 357

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 153 MJ - 2 MR. B. TULK: they a~e in, are now saying to them, 'No, we are going to close down your community. We are going to shut down your community.' The same company that in August of this year put a flyer - I think the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin) will know whether I am right or wrong - the same company that put a flyer into the Burin fish plant praising it as, I believe it was called, the backbone o·f Fishery Products - no, the flagship of Fishery Products - Burin was called in August ' of 1982 the flagship of Fishery Products; that ~s, their most productive plant, their flagship - that same company today, unhindered by this government is telling the people of Burin, 'Look, we are going to close down your community, you are no longer going to have a community; not only are .YOU no longer going to have a fish plant, you are no longer going to have a community.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, we on this side do not accept that. I want to point out one -other thing, and it is an idea I believe that is very important to _the South Coast of tlris. Province, and that is the idea that the Tail and Nose of the Grand Bank has to come under Canadian jurisdiction if we are going to increase those stocks. I noticed tha~ that was in the Throne · Speech. 358

March 9,1983 Tape No. 154 ah-1 MR.TULK: We have advocated that concept for some time and one of the long-term things that has to be done for the South coast of this Province is that the Tail and Nose of the Grand Banks have to be brought under Canadian jurisdiction and Canadian management. do I have? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): MR.TULK: Mr.Speaker, how much time About five minutes. Mr. ·Speaker, I want, if I can, talk about the fourth "whereas" of this resolution, which deals ~ith incomes and the cost to fishermen fishing in this Province.

As I said before, in 1977 the people of this Province were told by their government, by the Province, by the then Minister of Fisheries, Mr.Walter Carter, "Get into the fishery. Get rich." That was the idea, 'Get into the fishery and get rich.' He made everybody, people who were fishing and not fishing, believe that that was the way it was going to be. And, Mr. Speaker, the consequences of that are the same as we see happening today in the oil industry in this Province - if there is an oil industry in this Province any more. But, Mr.Speaker, the same thing happened.

Many people got into'the fishery over their heads in the same way .they are now getting into the oil industry over their heads. Speculation. The price of gear and equipment from 1977 to' 1979 tripled. The price of a simple gill net, a simple web for a gill net increased from $11.00 a web to something like $33.00 to $3 ·5.00. MR. STAGG: It should be eliminated. MR.TULK: I agree. 359

March 9,1983 Tape No. 154 ah-2 MR.TULK: The price of equipment: Fishermen have been scald left, right and centre in this Province because somebody believes the government is paying for it, not realizing that it is really the fishermen. You can go into stores in this Province and you can £ind examples of where an item here is twice the cost of another item there. Mr.Speaker, the Fishermen's Union and the Opposition in this Province, in committee and elsewhere for the last three or four years, have been bringing that to the attention of this minister. And, Mr.Speaker, what have we got?

We still have the same situation. On top of all that, the price of fish stayed virtually the same. Consequently many of our fishermen's profits are lower and they are just not making it in this industry. MR. STAGG: What about the seal hunt? MR.TULK: Mr.Speaker, for the education of the member for Stephenville (Mr.Stagg) let me move for one minute to the seal fishery -he needs it. What has happened to it? We have carried on a media fight which we are going to lose, we are·going to lose the media fight.

We cannot win because when some bleeding hearts perhaps in this country and in Europe and in other countries of the world see some blood on the ice, they automatically become upset. So we are probably going to lose that. We are probably going to lose that fight. We have probably lost it already. I agree with the minister that we should go all the way and take away the EEC quotas. No problem. I agree with him that we have to back our sealers when ' -~ we get our own CBC cameras on boats and all the rest of it. But the pr9v:i,ncial government has not done its ' homework. 360

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 155 SD - 1 MR. TULK: It has not tried to set up the processing of seal products in this Province. It has not tried to get the finished ·product, Mr. Speaker, which can be sold. It has not tried to convince Newfoundlanders that they should buy seal products. It has not done it. It has not tried to find markets. What better'place in this world to start a seal processing industry, whether it be a home industry or a large scale manufacturing industry, thanFogo Island? What better place? It is in the middle of'the seal herds. Why do we not really do something practical?

Why do we not try to sell a pair of sealskin boots, a pair of sealskin mittens? Why do we .not sell sealskin change purses? Would somebody in this House tell me why I am ~day wearing something made out of leather from womewhere else? I will tell you why. Because as far as I know - and I looked last week - you cannot buy a pair of sealskin boots in this Province! You cannot buy t:Jtem! PREMIER PECKFORD: You can. MR. TULK: -Tell me where. PREMIER PECKFORD: Plum Point. MR. TULK: I will have a pair. You cannot buy a pair of sealskin boots. The government _has not done its job. Mr.

Speaker'· this Fall I wv.ote to the federal Minister of Fisherie 's (Mr. De Bane) a couple of letters outlining to him those · things. Mr. Speaker, those · letters are available and I think it makes sound common sense that we proceed in· that way. ·,• MR. SPEAKER . (Aylward) : Order, please! . -.. The hon. member's time has elapsed • MR. WARREN: . By leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. 361

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 155 SD -2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. HODDER: Now we are going to hear it. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) said, 'Now we are going to hear it.' I would like to ·say that I am very pleased, as a matter of fact it is indeed a pleasure to s-it and listen to the Opposition finally speak on the fishery that is in such complete cha.os in this Province. We have been sitting in this House now since last week, Mr. Speaker, and finally we have seen ~he Opposition address the problems of the.fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. TULK: MR.

SPEAKER: .for Fogo. MR. TULK: A point of order, 11r. Speaker. A point of order, the han. member I' do not believe that this gentleman is intentionally misleading this House but I would remind him that yesterday most of Question Period in this House was taken up with the topic of the fishery. MR. SIMMS: To th_e paint of order 1 btlr. Spea,k.er. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, there i:_s no poi:.nt of order, The hon. member is taking an opportunity to try to defend the position that hi:.s party has taken on a particula,r issue, that is all. MR. SPEAKER: Th.ere i.s. no point of or<ier. :;rt is merely a -difference of opinion bet.ween two han.. members. The han, member ;fo:r Bur;i:.p. .,.._ Placentia west. MR. TOBIN: 11r. Speak.er, it is nice t.o see that the m~er for :Fogo (.MJ;'. Tul.k)_, whose_ nerve., obvi.qus,ly· was hit by the COrni!lents 'that I made , him being the critic for the Oppos-ition on the fisheries_, had tb.e time to run int.o the Hous:e 362

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 155 SD - 3 MR. TOBIN: to try to clarify and cover up the position 1 and then exit again. However, Mr. Speaker, let me say to the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) that as I .· .· ... . ' 363

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 156 NM - 1 MR. TOBIN: · read this resolution he has presented. I believe the han. member, Mr. Speaker, when he began to draft ~~is resolution, there is ~o doubt in my mind that he was sincere, Mr. Speaker, and probably on the right track. However, as we read the first paragraph, Mr. Speaker, the first "whereas", "The processing sector of the fishin -g industry is a provincial jurisdiction under the power and authority of the Provincial Minister of Fisheries." (Mr. Morgan) . Mr. Sp~aker, the han. gentleman is right on, dead on, Mr. Speaker .

I do not know of anyone ·,; who has denied that, Mr . Speaker. I know that according to the powers that we do have in the fisheries that if the federal government had that one they would have them all. However, I would like to' say that I believe the han. member for Fogo (Mr . Tulk) was so accurate on this point that he probably researched it himself. However, Mr. Speaker, he goes on to say in paragraph C2l, ;'And

whereas the processing and market components . of the industry are in the worse mess in the history -of the Newfoundland fishery: and

whereas the communities of Harbour Breton, F~rrneuse, Burin , St. Lawrence, Trepassey, Gaultois, Ramea, Grand Bank and others face social and economic extinction because of the virtual closedown of the fishing industry," well, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the intention of the hen.- member of the party opposite is. I think that when we ·are going to address the situation of the fisheries .i~ ·this Province w~ have to certainly speak and put everything :rn perspective, the whole kit and caboodle, so to speak, of .the fisheries mustoe put in place, and not just deal with certain sectors of the industry.

You know, ' . we can talk about ' processing all day, Mr. · Speaker, but what are , we going to proc~ss in the plants if the federal goverment does 364

March 9, 1983 MR. TOBIN : Cabbage? MR. BAIRD: MR . TOBIN: Tape No. 156 NM - 2 not live up to their responsibility? Give it away to the Europeans. Mr. Speaker, . I think we should probably stop here and just go ba.ck to that marketing processing component again. MR. WARREN: MR. TOBIN: MR. WARREN: MR. TOBIN: the resol ution. MR. WARREN: vote for it? Do you agree with the resolution? What is that? Do you agree with the resolution? I certainly agree with parts of Are you going to MR. TOB'IN: If':.you want to stay in the House and listen you shall hear.

I have got twenty minutes to speak unless you have changed the rules of the Rouse. MR. WARREN : MR. TOBIN: dictates I vote. MR. WARREN: resolution? MR. TOBIN: Are you going to vote for it? I will vote as my consci~nce So you are going to vote for the I will vote as my.conscience dictates I vote, not to hide in the blemish and the light of the · fickle . MR. WARREN : MR •. TOBIN: support in Ottawa. MR. SIMMS: It is a good resolution. five that you Boy, what · a,vicious attack! 365

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 156 NM- 3 MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would say that the fishing industry in this Province is in th .e worse mess that it has ever been in, and I would suggest that the federal government, and I think we should be honest with ourselves, I would suggest that the federal government has - what? - eighty or ninety pe~ cent responsibility for that when you put it all in perspective. It is, Mr. Speaker, disheartening to say the 'least. And I would say that we should be honest with one another, be honest with OU+selves, Mr.

Speaker, and be honest with the people of this Province; the problems that are surrounding the fishing industry are as complex as they are numerous a~d there is no simple solution to them. I think we must all address ourselves to -that, there is no simple solution tb the problem. Kowever, in order to deal with them they must be identified, and in doing this you would be surprised to find, Mr. Speaker, that . plants at Harbour Breton, Fer.meuse, Burin, St. Lawrence, Gaultois, Ramea are being closed down, and Trepassey and Grand Bank 1 some other people say,are on the verge of the same disaster.

It is hard to believe, Mr. Speaker, that these are being closed down, hundreds, tihbusands of people being thrown out of work, 366

March 9, 1983 Tape 157 EC - l MR. ·TOBIN: not because of the world-wide economic crisis and not through any lack of effort on the part of the provincial government. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the main cause of this problem is a shortage of marketable species of fish. which can be landed economically. Mr. Speaker, the area which I repre ,sent, the Burin Peninsula - and I have said it before and I say it again_.that the Grand Banks, Mr. Speaker, was no strange place to the people of the Burin Peninsula.

For hundreds of years . more schooners sailed out from the Burin Peninsula and fished those Grand Banks than probably anywhere else in this Province. However, Mr. Speaker, these people kept on advancing and finally it was these people who pioneered the deep sea fishery as we all see it and as it is today. Mr. Speaker, as one reflects back to the days when our forefathers sailed to ~e Grand Banks in th~ir fishing schooners, and look at what they thought then, Mr.

Speaker, with the fish that was there, in those days it would have been impossible, absolutely impossible, to envisage the dai when there ·would be a shortage of fish on the Grand Banks. MR.STAGG: You will have to get the federal Liberals involved before we have a shortage of fish on the Grand Banks. MR. TOBIN: That is exactly true, and I was going .to come to that point, Mr. Speaker. But I who could ever imagine the day that the plant in Burin w~uld be closed? The fish plant in Burin, Mr. Speaker, the father of all fish plants in this Province, the place that pion~ered the deep sea fi~hery! 367

March 9, 1983 Tape 157 EC - 2 MR.TULK: The father of Fishery Products. MR. TOBIN: No doubt in my mind, the place that created Fishery Products. As I said the other day, Mr. Speaker, the people who made Fishery Products synonomous with the deep sea fishery, no doubt in my mind, absolutely correct. But, Mr. Speaker, who could envisage the .day that these places, the most prolific fishing grounds in the world, could not have met the total requirements of our needs for eternity when you look at what was on the Grand Banks in those days? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, I think that as I read about the fisheries and study about the fisheries, particularly since I got involved in politics- I certainly have no great difficulty admitting that I am a novice in this field and what I am saying is what I believe in, Mr. Speaker, from the research that I have done - buti believe that one o~ the major problems in the fishery is that in the post-war period,after Newfoundland's entry into Confederation with Canada, control of our fishery was transferred from St •. John's to Ottawa. Tha-t;., Mr. Speaker, is where the problem lies.

Unfortunately, the significance of this industry was not recognized by the Canadian Government and the deep sea fishery was neglected. Mr. Speaker, I believe the I greatest neglect on the part of the federal government was not to take action. It was the failure of the I I ' federal government to take action against the foreign nations which depleted our fish stocks. It was not until 1~7i,after some fish species had become commercially extinct and others had become close to it 1that the Canadian Government eventually declared the 200 mile 36 ·8

March 9, 1983 Tape 157 EC - 3 MR. TOBIN : fishing limit . Had the federal government heeded the warnings and acted upon the pleas of the Newfound land f ishing indu stry ten yea rs ear lier , many of toda y 's problems would not even exist . NR . TULK : You are hiding !:>ehind a smokescreen . MR . TOBIN : I am hiding behind a smokes creen? So , Mr~ Sp eaker, the memb er for Fogo is saying that there is no problem . Are you suggesting that the 200 mile limit should not have been declared? MR . TULK : No , indeed I am not . .. . · 369

March 9, · 1983 Tape No. 158 MJ -1 MR. G. TOBIN: Well, he certainly left that

interpretation, Mr. Speaker. And I would say, Mr. Speaker, , thank God in Ottawa at that time we had~s a member, Mr. Speaker, a very distinguished gentleman in the person of the hon . . Don Jamieson. Thank God, Mr. Speaker, that we are not represented .in the federal Cabinet by what we have got today, Mr. ·speaker; We know where we would be. We would be in deep trouble if Mr. Rompkey had to stand up and fight in the federal Cabinet for anything for this Province. We ,kn0\'1 where we would be. MR. B. TULK: MR. TOBIN: Get on about this Province.

When Ottawa finally did wake up to the fact that the East coast fishery was in trouble, did they take the appropriate action to rebuild the industry, Mr. Speaker, in a business and sensible-like manner? The answer is no. Instead · they Chose to use the industry partly as a _trade-off tool with foreign countries and partly as a political tool to enhance the political fortunes of his own party members. Mr. Speaker, the resolution clearly states the marketing component is in a great mess.

And let me just say that for those who have the mistaken impression that marketing efforts l::ly the Newfoundland industry are at fault, let ·us look at the facts. The facts, Mr _. Speaker, is the quality of Newfoundland fish has risen to the point where tt is considered by many US buyers to be , ~s good, Mr. Speaker, or better than that of our main coini?e ·ti .tors, Iceland and Norway . ·MR. TULK: MR. TOBIN: What about the advertising? What about the advertising? When the Min~ster. of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) of this Province . decides to travel r Mr.

Speaker, to promote I to advertise Newfoundlandfish products, why does the 370

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 158 MJ - 2 MR. G. TOBIN: hon. gentleman call him, Mr. Speaker? The Great Globe Trotter. Yes, Mr. Speaker, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have got to face the facts. For too long you ha~e hid behind and stood up and supported the federal people when they were trying chaos in our industry. We know where the Newfoundland government stands, Mr. Speak~r. MR. B. TULK: They stand nowhere. MR. TOBIN: These are the facts of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, as good or better than that of our competitors, Iceland and Norway,and there is absolutely no big problem in selling high grade Newfoundland fish in the .American market. The problem is the availability of sufficient quantity to meet the market requirements. Mr. Speaker, we want to look further on that. In a recent edition of the British newspaper Fish Trader, within the last six or seven months, a headline reads Canada's finest comes to Britain. The

article continues: 'During the last four and a half years Fishery Products has worked hard at improving its products toachieve the quality that buyers in the UK are used to from other sources.' MR. H. ANDREWS: world that. MR. TOBIN: Exactly. We should t~ll the That is right. So, advertising, Well, 1what is this if it is not advertising? Mr • .SpE;!aker, I do not know what the han. gentleman ·suggests about advertising, probably we can hear from him. Probably he would suggest sending Mr. Rompkey across the world to advertise for Newfoundland Products. . MR. TULK: He takes your minister with hi1p._ • MR. TOBIN: Yes, indeed 1 hedoes- and takes Newfoundland down with -him as well. 371

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 158 ~1J - 3 MR. G. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, further to that in the

article in News and Views, the Fisheries·Products paper, 'the idea of directly li~~ing assets to markets with allocations of Canadian fish stocks to foreign fishing interests is totally unacceptablE to the East Coast trawling fishing industry . .. 372

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 159 SD - 1 MR. TOBIN: 'The East Coast trawler operators are facing serious difficulties due to a shortage of cod fish. 'In 1982 the foreign fleets were collectively allocated 63,160 tons or 126.32 million pounds of cod in Canadian waters.. This has caused a two-prong detrimental effect. Firstly, it reduced the closure of certain plants with disastrous results. Secondly, it served to curtail efforts to make substantial inroads in European economic markets.

While foreign nations continued to be permitted to fish Canadian waters ,there is no incentive for them to relax tariff barriers against Canadian fish products.' Now, Mr. Speaker, why are some of the plants closed in the Province? Again, Mr. Speaker, I like the way it was addressed by the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulkl. 1 The fish processing industry is no different from any other enterprise which is dependent upon a natural resource.

The key elements are a skilled and wiliing work force, an adequate supply of raw materials, efficient tools and equipment,~nd a market for the end products. 1 Does the hon. member disagree with that,I wonder, Mr. Speaker? MR. TULK: Read it again, will you? MR. TOBIN:. Okay. 1 Th .e fish processing industry is no di1;ferent from any other enterprise which. ±s dependent upon natural resources. The key elements are a skilled and.willing work force, an adequate supply of raw materials, efficient 'tools and equipment and a market for for the end product._- _MR.

TULK: We said the same thing you are saying - na foreign quota -s. MR. TOBIN: Okay, Mr. Speaker, now he agreed with_ that. And they go on to say, 'In the case of Harbour Breton' - this is · Fishery products - 'in the cas .e of Harbour Breton,two · of these key elements are presently absent- raw. materials and tools. The availability · of 373

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 159 SD - 2 MR. TOBIN: marketable fish capable of being caught by the existing Harbour Breton trawler fleet is non­ existent since the Gulf of St. Lawrence was placed out of bounds by federal regulations. In order to fish more distant waters from Harbour Breton, the fleet of eight side trawlers must be replaced :' Mr. Speaker, I do not have time to get into th~ trawler fleets the way I want to.

I certainly will be introducing my resolution, in two weeks time, I guess, at which time I want to emphasize that a lot more because, as the company says there, they want to increase the catching capacity of trawlers. And as we ~oak at the Kirby Report, Mr. Speaker, the one-man threat, Recommendation 46 says, 'Do not ,Provide direct special assitance for vessels acquisition or replacement but ensure that vessels can be purhcased for the most economical source unhindered by tariff or other barriers.' I say to hell with Kirby. MR. TULK: MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, on that recommendation, 'The truth shall set you free.' Good! There is more than one industry in this Province, _Mr. Spe .aker, _there is more than _one industry in this Province. · Mr. Speaker, if the companies have to go out and build trawlers in this Province at the Marystown Shipyard, and import the steel, bring in the steel to build the trawlers with ·hundreds of thousands-of dollars of taxes applied, ·Mr. Speaker, yet ~irby is saying to the fish companies, 'Go out, bring your 'boats 'in.' Well, there is another sector in this Province, ~r.

Speaker, that must survive from the fishing industry · and that .relates to the work force of the Marystown Shipyard . and I hope to get into that a lot deeper. MR. TULK: . You do not agree with penalizing the fishermen for -that, do you? MR. TOBIN: No, that is Kirby's suggestion. 374

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 159 SD - 3 MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, if we can go a little further into all of this 1 the fish plants and all tha~ why they were closed, .· 375

~ March 9, 1983 Tape 160 JV - 1 MR. TOBIN: let me just relate back to the situation at Burin. As I said to the han. gentleman earlier, just a few days before they closed the Burin plant, Burin has continually been Fishery Product's most productive plant. This fact alone assures the continuation of the operation there. It goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, "The management of Fishery Products salute the employees of the Burin plant but there is room for improvement. The company will be taking steps as soon as pres7nt problems blow over to upgrade the Burin plant.

We are fully aware that these renovations are overdue and we have already begun the planning functions which must proceed the physical change to the plant. This indicates the confidence the company has in its employees". That is what Fishery Products said, Mr. Speaker. And as time is running out -'And

Whereas the Provincial Government has a Fisheries Department a~d Minister, both of which are functionally invisibly'. I cannot, Mr. Speaker, in all ·conscience support that. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, along with the Premier, when the Burin situation developed, where were they Mr. Speaker? They were in Burin meeting with the action committee, trying to do something to help the people of Burin, not like the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, and his leader did when they were down there. Do not tell me, Mr.

Speaker, they went to play politics, the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries of this Province went to assist the people of Burin. We made money. This government, Mr. Speaker, assisted the people of Burin to have a study done to ensure th_e-viability of their plant. MR. NEARY: Not true. That is not true. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, what about the 376

March 9, l983 Tape No. l60 JV - 2 MR. TOBIN: people of Burin! Why did the people of St. Anthony get preferential treatment in the Kirby report? Why not the people of Burin1 However, you support that type of action, rou would stand pehind Kirby and the Federal government when they divide this Province, when they stand up, Mr. Speaker, and support the people of St. Anthony and not the people of Burin. That is what you support, Mr. Speaker. Where is the Minister of Fisheries (.Mr. Morgan) and the Premier of the Province right now?

They are at meetings regarding the South coast fisheries, trying to do what they can to assist it. Do not tell me, Mr. speaker. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! The han. member's time have elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : By Leave .• MR. SPEAKER: The han. member has permission to continue, By Leave7 SOHE HON . MEMBERS : No leave. ·MR. SPEAKER: Leave is not granted. The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, it is too bad that the han. member from Burin-Placentia tvest (Hr.

Tobin) did not get going before his time was up, but apparently, the hon. member failed to mention that it was only after the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr; Neacy} and spokesman on Fisheries went to Burin, that th~ Minister of Fisheries and the Premier went down. MR. TOBIN: A Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A Point of Order. The han. the member for Burin- Placentia West MR. TOBIN: W4at the han. gentleman is saying ·. 377

March 9, 1983 Tape 160 JV - 3 MR . TOBIN: Mr. Speak ·er , is not the facts. The Premier of this Province and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) were in Burin before the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary l and the spokesman for fisheries kne\.,r that a problem existed in Burin . And I would advise the han. the member for Torngat MountainstMr. Warren) that if he is going to speak in this ffouse, he speak the facts. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR . SPEAKER(Aylward l: To that point of order the bon . the member for Fogo . MR . TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order . It is really not a point of order.

The truth is that I knew that Burin existed and r knew the Burin problem existed from day one. Be is misleading the House. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh. , oh.~ '. 378

March 9, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. BAIRD: Tape No. 161 To that point of order - The former member for Burin NM - 1 used to be a colleague, did he not? MR. TULK: He is a nice fellow. He knew more about the fishing industry than you will ever know. MR. SPEAKER: . MR. BAIRD: Order, please! Order, please! I had more salt water run over my eyeballs than you ever saw. MR. TULK: That is out on your yacht. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! To that point of order I rule there is no point of order, merely a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: I knew, Mr. Speaker, that when the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) started speaking that he had no intention of supporting this • resolution. MR. TULK: Supporting his own people. MR. WARREN: He said he believed in the first four whereases, but as soon as the most crucial part of the resolution became evident,that the minister is functionally "invisible, as soon as we mentioned about his coileague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) - MR. Tui.K: He ·is not invisible, but he is functionally invisible. MR. WARREN: · - the hon. member could not agree. Now,.Mr.

Speaker, every fisherman not only on the Burin. Peninsula but in Bonavista Bay, in Trinity Bay, along the Labrador ~oast, everywhere - MR. TULK: . They are saying, "Where is he?" .. , 379

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 161 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: - everyone is saying that the only ·thing the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) does is open his mouth. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. WARREN: That is the only thing, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Fisheries does, open his mouth but very, very little action. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at this resolution in its totality and in

summary I have to agree partially with what the han. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) said, that the federal government should be blamed for some of the inconsistencies. We on this side have agreed. we have said it in this House time and time again, in fact we have said it publicly, that the programmes that the federal government have implemented to better the fishing industry in this Province have just done the reverse, they have worsened it. And I would be ~he first to admit it, that the policies of the federal government 'are not in the best interest of fishermen in this Province. MR.

BAIRD: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, at the same time, and I would like for the han. member for Humbe;r West (Mr. Baird) . . . to say hear, hear after this one, at the same time the policies of the provincial government, the policies of this provincial government are not in the best interest of the fishermen either. MR. PATTERSON: For example? MR. WARREN: ·Far exampl~. I thank the hon. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) for asking me, for example. Here is the little blue book. We call it the fishermen's bible '- or the minister's bible we will call it. Okay?

That book is a guideline for th ,~ Provincial Department of Fisheries. It is a guideline . 380 I

!-la rch 9, 1983 Tape No. 161 NM- 3 MR. NARREN: Mr. Speake.r, give me an example of what the Provincial Department of Fisl:ieries ,has- done not in the best interest of fishermen. And I would like to agree with the hen. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) that I was, before I came into politics, I was a regional fisheries representative with the Provincial Department of .Fisheries. At that time the minister was written - MR. PATTERSON: Whi.ch department were you with :? MR. WARREN: The Provincial Department · of Fisheries .ali)_a regional representative. At the same time during that year, Mr.

Speaker, in May of 1979, a lett~r was ­ written t~ the minister saying, "Look, Mr. Minister, one thing with the depa:r;tment that is going to be a step ~ackwards for the fis:h.e:onem in this Province is that you are almost demanding, you are telling the fishermen to get out of your small boat and go into the longliner. MR. BAIRD: And tb.e Liberals s'aid nothing at all. 381

March 9,1983 Tape No. 162 ah-1 · MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speak~r, this has caused a lot of hardship to the fishermen in this Province~ And I am sure the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) will agree that one of the worst things that this provincial Department of Fisheries could do is encourage the inshore fishermen, the small fishermen in the twenty,twenty-five and thirty foot boat, "Look, boy, you are making good money and you can make more money. Why not buy a longliner?" And , Mr. Speaker, here is what is happening. AN HON. MEMBER: And then give all the fish away to the - MR.

WARREN: I am corning to that. And at the same time as this was happening, Mr. Speaker, the federal government decided that foreign ships could come in and take our fish. Now , Mr. Speaker, there is no co-operation between both levels of government. So both levels of government are to blame, Not just the federal government or not just the provincial government, but both levels of governernnt.

Let me just say that last yearoff Makkovik , just two miles outside of Makkovik, there were not one, not two, pot three, not four, but .. five · foreign draggers , or foreign ships anchor~d within two miles of the town of Makkovik purchasing Northern cod from longliner fishermen from this Province. And where was that fish taken? That .fish was not taken into the fish plants in Labrador to be processed, it was not taken to the fish '.I?la .nts in St. John's, on the Southside of St. John's, ~t 'was not taken to Burin, to Ferrneuse, Harbour Breton • . Where was it taken? SOME HON. ME~1BERS :. Where? Where?

MR.WARREN: I will tell you where it was taken. It was taken right across the seas over to the European countr'ies. That is where it was taken. 382

March 9,1983 Tape No. 162 ah-2 MR. DINN: Who gave the license? MR. WARREN: And at the same time ,Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) stood up in this hon. House and said, "I support Mr. Cashin in having over-the-side sales." AN HON. MEMBER: And what did you say? MR.WARREN: I disagreed with it because we had a fish plant in Makkovik at that same time with sixty people ready to go to work but there was no work because the longliners from the Island portion of the Province w~~e in there catching this fish and selling it to the Portuguese and sending it across to be processed. And, Mr.

Speaker, one day last Summer myself and my wife had the opportunity of going aboard one of thos~ boats for dinner. And on this boat, Mr. Speaker, there were two Newfoundlanders, two Newfoundland people and every other person , Mr. Speaker, was of a foreign origin. And thos~ two people ,Mr •• Speaker, were two people who were employed by the Fishermen's Union. AN HON. MEMBER: What did you have for dinner? MR. WARREN : Oh, the dinner was elaborate. It was a fantastic dinner. AN HON. MEMBER: Did they serve fish? -MR. WARREN: Mr.

S.peaker, let me also say that in Southern Labrador, down around Black Tickle off Black Tickle and off Smokey, the same blinking thing is happening. It i~ the-federal government. And I disagree with them. 'I have said it publicly and I have said it in . •a .. writt 'en 'lett~r 'to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. DeBane), 0 • "Look, 'let us process what fish we can first in our own Province, in ··Harbour Breton, Burin and everywhere else,Nain or Makkov:i:k, wherever the : case where be,in Black Tickle. But 383

March 9,1983 Tape 163 PK - l MR. WA~N: only after those plants are sufficiently supplied can we then ship our fish out, not before~ Ana we are not doing this. And the Provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has agreed with Mr. Cashin, he has agreed with the federal government, and this is the _worst step that the Minister of Fisheries could ever take, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: himself. MR. WARREN: He is. not here now to defend That is right. He is not here to defend himself.

I hope that one of your co~leagues can tell him· All you need to do is get Hansard and you will see what the minister said, when he came in with a Ministerial Statement. HR.DINN: During the glut. MR. WARREN: That is right. During the glut. But there was no glut on the Labrador Coast at the time. MR.BAIRD: (inaudible) • When you were picking out MR.DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, let us leak at what . will happen-this year. Last year there were thirty­ six longliners supplying those five /Portuguese ships. -AN HON. l·illl·IEER: Burn them! MR.

WARREN: This year, Mr •. · Speaker, it has already been anticipated-the Council in Makkovik has been told to be prepared-there coulj be anywhere from.sixty to seventy Newfoundland longliners up fishing the Northern cod off · i-ia.kkovik. MR.: YOUNG: What do you have against Newfoundlanders? MR. WARREN: What do I have against Newfoundlanders? I am glad t.he han. Minister of; Public Works (Mr. Young), who is s~pposed to be lil~y white 1 should come up with such a statement, "What do you have against Newfoundlanders"? Here is a guideline 384

March 9, 1983 Tape 163 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.DINN: What page? MR. WARREN: Page 11. Mr. Speaker, let us see what it says now. I should get my notes there. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you reading? MR. WARREN: No, I am just getting some names, that is all. Here is what it says, "Eligibility requirements for a fisherman to qualify under the Inshore Fishing Gear programme·; Here are the requirements - and I have said this now for the last three days, and I am going to say it until someone comes out and says, Look,the minister has -performed his duties in an illegal manner. ~Jow, Mr.

Speaker, here is what it says, "A fisherman'- this i's in the blue book, Every fisherman in the Province received it-·~ fisherman must be a full-time fisherman." No problem there. "A fisherman must be a resident of Labrador in the region specified." Now, Mr. Speaker- AN HON. MEMBER: Read it again. MR. WARREN: - the region specified was from Cape Henley to Cap~Chidley.That is the region specified. And what happens? Let me read off six names. '=' AN HON. MEMBER: From.Cape Henley to where? MR.

WARREN: of six fishermen from Carbonear, and Harbour Grace ·I might add, Carbonear and Harbour Grace who have received approval for monies ·under this programme that is for the Labrador fishermen. MR. YOUNG: Name them! MR. WARREN: Name the six fishermen? Yes, my friend, ,I will be only too glad to name them. The na~es are James ForW-ard, Ross Green; Lorne Green .. no Lloyd Green- Alfred Penney, Stanley Pye, and Winston Thorne, or Winston Thomas. MR. YOUNG: There is no one from Harbour Grace there. 385

March 9, 1983 MR. WAR.IU:N : Stanley Pye . MR. YOUNG: Harbour Grace in the Winter. MR. WARREN: Barbour Grace in the Winter. Tape 163 PK - 3 The Harbour Grace one is Stanley Pye only comes to Okay. Right. Only comes to Now, Mr . Speaker, this is what is happening. Those are the fishermen, Mr. Speaker, from Newfoundland who go up to Labrador during the Summertime and fish and qualify, according to the minister, under this eligibility ~equiement . .• 386

' I March 9, 1983 Tape 164 EC - 1 MR. DINN: '!hey are residents up there, are they not? MR. WARREN: No, they are not residents up there, Mr. Speaker, they are resid~nts of where they vote and in the last election, I understand that both of those were on the voting list in Carbonear and Harbour Grace. Now, Mr. Speaker, just look at some of the other things that are so important. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has caused the fishery to go into such a turmoil and such a collapse!

And let us face it, the reason it did is because of the Ayatollah Premier who got up in 1979 and d~anded that Newfoundland would have its day in the sun when we would have the offshore and we would have ~oney rolling out of our pockets. And with that, the Minister of Fisheries said, 'Well, I will lay off fisheries now for awhile. We will forget about the fisheries and we will concentrate and put all our eggs in one basket, the oil basket. However, what did happen, Mr. Speaker? History is going to repeat itself in a few weeks time when the Supreme Court ruling comes down.

But we have lost the most vital and most viable industry in our Province. We have lost it, Mr. Speaker, and now it is going to cost millions of dollars for both govern­ ments to get our fishery back_Qn keel. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to try to · concentrate on making a good speech while being interrupted by members on both sides. MR. SPEAKER , (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! MR. WARREN: . Another thing, I do not mind kicking ·the federal government and here is one that is solely in the federal government's hands. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 387

March 9, 1983 Tape 164 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have only another five minutes. ..Another problem, Mr. Speaker, is happening and is going to happen this year. Unless both the provincial Minis.ter of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) come up immediately with some regulations pertaining to long- liner fishermen -Mr.

Speaker, what is happening now all the way up the Labrador Coast and in places along the Newfoundland Coast,too,is that longliner fishermen have forty and fifty foot boats and the small independent fishermen with the eighteen and twenty foot boats are in on the shore line fishing the same area. Now, I believe the federal government, in conjunction with our Province, should come up with some stipulation saying to the longliner fishermen, 'At least move off the land . If you have a longliner you can go off further than a small inshore fisherman can go.

Fish off there and let the inshore fis .hermen fish closer to the land. ' Mr. Speaker, last year there were all kinds of problems in Makkovik and along the Labrador Coast with this inci4ence and this year it is going to happen again. Not all longliners~· ·r might add, but · some longliner fisherm~n are going to be in placing their nets and gear right _on top of the inshore fishermen's. And there has to be a· 'zone, Mr. Speaker. Why should a person with a longliner and with a forty-five foot boat be expected, or even have the knowledge and the f understanding .388

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 165 MJ - 1 MR. G. WARREN: of saying, 'Okay, look the fish is there; I should go there~ He should move off and look for the fish else1.,rhere, Hr. St;>eaker. He has the capabilities, he has the equipment and he has the ship. So1therefore, Mr. Speaker, I believe that this government, the minister, aithough it is a federal matter, but he definately should contact his federal counterpart who by tne way, he says he is in bed with now, he is cheek to cheek and toe to toe. AN HON. HEMBER: My colleague? My colleague? MR.

WARREN: If the minister is so cheek to cheek and toe to toe,and so and so and so and so, if the minister is so close to the federal minister I would suggest and, maybe some of his colleagues could pass the word along to ?im,that the least he can do is to sit down immediately, before the fishery season starts along the Labrador coast, and set up some guidelines for the longliner fishermen. If not this year -he is warned now- there are going to be confrontations, there iare going to be problems between the inshore fishermen along the Labrador coast and the longliners from the Island. This has come out.

I said the same thing last year. There were a couple of altercati<;>~ last year and this yea ,r it will happen again if there are not sorre gui~lines set up for the longliner fishermen and the small independent . inshore fishermen. Mr. Speaker, I believe this is where our mi .nister can act · in the best interest of botH types,_?£ fishenren. And no way should a longliner fish be allowed to put his nets on top of inshore fishermens propert~ .And -with that, Mr. Speaker, I have to support .this resolution. ! ·believe at the present time the minister .is functionally invisible and I believe, Mr.

Speaker, we should make him visible. Here is.an example of how the minister can become, visible, Mr. Speaker. And by becoming visible- MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! The han. the members time has elapsed. 389

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 165 MJ - 2 MR. G. WARREN: - I am sure he can meet with the federal mi~ister, Mr. De Bane, and come up with a resolution for those inshore fishermen. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. STAGG: I-ir. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: A point 6f order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have some direction from the Chair in this matter that I want to raise. Is it right and proper, Mr.

Speaker, to have an emergency Cabinet meeting going on over in the Government Common Room while the House is sitting? Is that right and proper? Or should the ministers be in there place? MR. R. BAIRD: It does not .make 'any difference if there is a quonun here. MR. :NEARY: It does make a big difference, Mr. Speaker.: The, han. gentleman does not understand how the parliamentary system works. It does make a difference. Should these ministers be in their place in this han. House? Mr. Speaker, the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: I would like some directions from Order, please! To that point of order.

To that point of order, the han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, obviously what the han. the Leader 'of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is now raising is not a point of order. A point of order has to do with a breach·of the procedures in the House. This is certainly 390

MaJ?ch 9, 1983 Tape No . 165 MJ - 3 MR. L. SIMMS: not a breach of procedures in the House. MR4 .S. NEARY: This is a breach of procedures. MR. SIMMS: The hon. the Leader of the Opposi~ion (Mr. Neary) being a veteran of the House is weli aware ·of it, Mr. Speaker, · and I suggest to you that there is no point of order in this particular case. MR . NEARY: Their ,first obligation is in their seats . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! ,. I .· 39 1

March 9, 1983 Tape 166 PK - 1 MR. SP EAKER (Ay lward) : Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. member for Stephenville . MR. STAGG : Mr. Speaker, I would presume that my time has commenced. MR. NEARY: Would you qualify that, Mr.Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Do you want to get up on it? MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. SPEAKER: Do you want to get up on it? MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, this resolution - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition, ther~ are no references in our Standing Orders where people have to sit in their seats in the aouse.

It is not a reqqirement . The people are in the area, but that even is not a requirement. As long as there is a quorum in the aouse the House can operate and that is the only rule that we have on it. / . . The hon. member for Stephenville • MR. STAGG~ I thank you very much, Mr • .. Speaker. '.You will notice that whenever I get up to speak the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is reluctant to have me enter into the debate because he is used to the problems that are encountered when I have assailed him in the past, so I guess this is just an anticipatory on his part to try to ~se up the time and to divert me from my role. 392

March 9, 1983 Tape 166 PK - 2 MR. STAGG: Now, Mr. Speaker, this resolution- MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : On a point of order, the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, one of the rules of this House, and I think it is a rule that Your Honour has enforced a good many times, is that you cannot attribute motives .to han. members of this House. The han. gentleman just attributed a motive to my raising a point of ordere Mr . . Speaker, that is unparliamentary. I raised that point of order irt the interest - MR.WARREN: Name him! Name him!

MR.BAIRD: It was a spurious point of order and you knew it. MR. STAGG:. I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Withdraw. Okay, the han. gentleman with~rew, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPENCER: The han. gentleman for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: If there was any imputation of motives, it was accidental, Mr. Speaker, and certainly I will withdraw that. I do not want to encourage the han. gentleman to get up on any more points of order. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this resolution on this most important subject that is continuously debated in the House of Assembly, the resolution related to the fishery, I , if it were a'sirtcere motion and if its motives were the furthering of'-'the fishery as a productive enterprise in this Province,then I wou~d see some reason in supporting it. But this resoiution is entirely political. This resolution is almost a personal attack upon the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). Now,the Minister of Fisheries is well-known. He is certainly not inv~sible in his role as Minister 393

March 9, 1983 Tape 166 PK - 3 MR. STAGG: of Fisheries. MR. TULK: He is getting small~ .MR. STAGG: He is one of the most visible of ministers. He is known world wide., Certainly \.,ithin the Province his name is on everyone's lips \'7hen it comes to speaking about the fishery. So he is definitely not an invisible minister. Yet one of the recitals in the resolution would say, AND

WHEREAS the Provincial Government has a Fisheries Department and a minister both of which are functionally invisible. Wel.l, now, how would you expect anyone on this side of the House to respect or support a resolution of that type"? ' 394

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 167 SD - 1 MR. STAGG: The member, of course, got up and did not direct himself to this in the least. He only got down to the fourth

WHEREAS,as he referred to it,and did not in any way justify or support the resolution as he had put it forward or as he had it written for him. So this resolution is entirely political. It does not purport to deal at all with the real problems, of the fishery. But nevertheless we must deal with it,as the rules of the House indicate that for at least two sessions on successive Wednesdays - Private Members' Days we must debate a resolution as long as there are members ready and willing, not necessarily able, to debate the resolution. Now, Mr. Speaker, the resolution is divided into two parts.

It directs itself to the processing and marketing components of the industry and attributes· the problems in marketing and processing to the provincial government. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland does have some cont~ol and jurisdiction over processing and marketings, some control, but it cannot have any effective role in that very important aspect of the industry unless the industry i.e. the plants have access to the product.

You know, we could say that the Department of Agriculture has jurisdiction over the growth of bamboo, bananas, oranges, grapefruit; and the Department of Forestry · has jurisdiction over the growth of the mahogany industry in Newfoundland; the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth would have jurisdiction over parrots·, myna birds, koala bears:, the migration of kangaroos, lions, tigers·, leopards: and gazelles:. Sa under the Constitution we have juris:dictian over th.ese, things. The only problem with that, of course, is· that we have none of thes.e products in this Province.

And that, to SQI!)e extent, is the same problem that we have in the fishery·. We have many plants around this 'province. 'Ihey were built hones·tly, they were built in the expectation that there would :Oe adequate 395 -:

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 167 SD - 2 MR. STAGG·: product for their utilization. But it takes two levels of government to play the fishery's game in Newfoundland. It takes two levels of government - .· 396

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 168 NM- 1 MR. STAGG: it takes the federal level and it takes the provincial level. It takes a realistic and sensitive and apolitical attitude towards the fishery on the part of the federal government, and the provincial government,in order to have this industry perform the greatest good for the greatest number. We submit that the federal level of government has not been apolitical in its control of the fishery. We submit that it has on many occasions, to our great chagrin and to the outrage of the Provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan), allocated vast quantities of our offshore resource to various European countries and to the Japanese~ We recall,I believe it was the year before last,that we were having a tremendous problem, the Canadian auto industry was having a tremendous problem with the cars that were coming in through British Columbia, coming into Canada and putting the auto worker of Windsor and Oshawa out of work. So what was the answer? What was the answer that was conjured up by the federal goverBment? The answer was, "We need cap lin _this year'; The Japanese had a problem with their libido.

I do not know why, there are plenty of them over there. But they had libido problems. MR. TULK: MR. STAGG: Nothing worse, is _there boy? ~ell, you know, Newfoundlanders are not noted for their problems with their libido, I would suggest. So what was the answer? Well,the Japanese have this problem so what they need, they need female caplin. The Japanese need female caplin. So to the rescue came Mr. Romeo LeBlanc and the Department of External Affairs and 25,000 tons or some grotesque amount of female caplin were placed at the disposal of the Japanese to feed their libidos and whatever · else.

Because that is essentially what they use the caplin for. The roe of th .e female capl.i,n is an aphrodisiac for the Japanese 'people. And that is what it is. 397

March 9, 19 .83 Tape No. 168 NM- 2 MR. STAGG: And the up shot o£ all that was, "Well, ?ere it is, here is an opportun.ity. We have really got them over the barrel . now. They have libidos probiems and we have the fish. that can take care of that conswning desire." MR. HOUSE: What about the seal? MR. STAGG: Mr. LeBlanc or whoever was negotiating i:t at the time, I guess it was Mr. ·LeBlanc, and Mr.

MacEachen, who I think was the Minister o£ External Affairs, 25,000 tons of capl.in for the Japanese in return for what? - .in return for the inscrutable oriental hand- ... - . ' - --- shake ·saying, "We will not export too many ca~s to Canada s.o that your automobile industry can swviv~." Arid that was an oral agreement on their part, not worth the paper it was 398

I • March 8, 1983 Tape No. ~69 IB-~ MR. STAGG: written on. So that is the kind of negotiation that the federal government has carried on with regard to the Newfoundland fishery. So the Newfoundlander again, as is our wont, the Newfoundlander came through for the people of Ontario. It is the same old greedy attitude that is exhibited by Central Canada 1 and the Liberal powers that be in Central Canada,towards the natural resources of this Province. So we are indeed upset by that. It is something that we deplore. It is something that th~ Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) who has been declared invisible by the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) who, by the way,sat in this House for two years before we knew that he hadany debating skills at all and then he started to debate and we realized why he had not spoken for two years. MR. TULK: Why? MR. STAGG: I have not got to paint the whole picture .have I? So that is one of the problems that we have, Mr. Speaker, that we are fighting a battle for existence in this Province and we are not really being assisted by people who control a significant portion of our resorirce, the fishery.

They control the fish. · ·What is the good of having fish plants if you have no fish? And as a corollary to that, of course, the same people who would control our fishery - we gave up our fishery, you .kno¥, under the Terms of Union in 1949; we decided to adhere to .the provisions of the British Nort~ America Act' · certain provisions of

Section 9~ and

Section 92 of the British North , America Act of ~867 whereby fisheries were under federal jurisdiction. Well, our leaders at that time decided that they would adhere to that and fisheries came under -federal jurisdiction. Well, how have they dealt with it? They certainly dealt with a . I 399

March 8, 1983 Tape No. 169 LB-2 MR. STAGG: government at the time that was willing to abdicate any and all responsibility with regard to the fishery, any and all responsibilit y. The credo of these years was, 'I hope my son does not grow up to be a fisherman. Do all you can so that he I . will not become a =isherman .' And we are just now,some thirty years later ,trying to reverse that process which gained a tremendous amount of momentum between l949 and, let us say, 197l,until this government took office .

We have only been in office twelve years and it is a mighty task when the system has been put in place and the laws and the actions of people over the years have been the perpetuation of a certain .systero . It is a perpetuation of the system that I spoke about in the Throne Speech Debate a couple of days ago , 400

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 170 W!1 1 MR. STAGG: that in the history of North _ America, Newfoundland is Britain's oldest colony. we pride ourselves in being Britain's oldest colony but we do not pride ourselves, ladies and gentlemen, in being or Be?oming or threatening to become Canada's newest colony. We do not, and we will mightily protest it, and we will do everything we can to strive against that problem which comes up all the time. We see it most dramatically now in the offshore negotiations that are- well ,there are no offshore negotiations at the present time. The federal government, bolstered by th .e - MR.

CALLAN: MR. STAGG: There never were any in good faith. - bolstered by the decision of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland are relying on legal technicalities and the sheer weight of their government and their resources to attempt to put us under their thumb in true colonial fashion.

And,of course,hon. gentleman opposite who,in 'their desire for power at the provincial level would do anything to discredit the government on this side, do not direct themselves at all towards the real problems of the Province, and I am afraid that the prophecy that I made a couple of years ago that their numbers were small and getting smaller is certainly becoming a reality. Now I w~uld like to direct myself to some extent towards the seal fishery, or the seal hunt as it is sometimes called. There is a recital in this obnoxious motion by the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulkl which indicates that the seal hunt and the seal fishery - the failure of it or its problems are not in any way attributable to the Newfoundland Government. Now I will give a certain amount of credit where credit is due to the member for Fogo, and to the Leader of the 401 -;

Ma y 9, 1983 Tape No. 170 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: Opposi.tion (Mr. Neary} , of all the things I have seen them come up w.ith over t~e past four ·years, and certainly there is no lack of material that the Leader of the Opposition sends but to the media~ as a matt'er of fact, I think that the paper mills in the Province are indeed indebted to him, he sends out so much material to the media, but one of the things the~ did come up with, and one of the initiati.ves that they took that gains a certain amount of credibility in the press w:as thei.r advocating of a genuine Newfoundland - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , o h ~ MR.

SPEAKER (RUsseLl}: Order, please! Order, please! MR. STAGG: - a qenuine Newfoundlland sealing industry, that is the catching of the seals and the processing of the skins and that . sort o.f thing. I agree With that . . · 402

>. March 8, 1983 Tape No . l71 IB-~ MR. STAGG: And there was a certain amount of editorial comment in some of the papers that supported them in it. Certainly it is nothing new to us on this side of the House. We have been advocating that for years. But it is the sort of initiative that I w9uld certainly encourage ·from hon. gentlemen opposite. Again,as far as the seal hunt is concerned,we do run into the hypocrisy of the federal level of government or their Crown corporations. Now the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) dealt in detail today and dealt quite eloquently with the problem that we are presently encountering with regard to the s·ea Shepherd. Now the Sea Shepherd is a trawler, converted trawler,that is being operated by the Greenpeace Organization, the Greenpeace Organization whose objectives,by the way, in some respects I agree with. They have certain stands on truly endangered species in the world and on nuclear disarmament that I do not disagree with. As a matter of fact,I encourage them in that regard. But they are grossly and - MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: or something. MR.

STAGG: Be careful now, be careful. Be careful? You might be called a traitor Yes,well,I have been called a lot of things in my lifetime. There are certain of the philosophies of Greenpeace that I agree with, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunately;they have chosen in objecting to ~e seal hunt,something that is not a legitimate, is not a genuine protest. They have chosen to feed on the emotions of people who know nothing about the seal hunt, know nothing about the realities of any kind of hunting or any kind of killing of animals both for skins or for food, playing on the emotions of individuals. 403

March 8, 1983 Tape No . 17 1 IB-2 MR. STAGG: Well, what has the federal Cro\m corporation, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, done? Well . at other times, Mr. Speaker -w hat they are doing by giving publicity to Greenpeace,by actually putting a crew from Newfoundland - I understand, the CBC personnel from the Province of Newfoundland are on the Sea Shepherd plying the waters towards Newfoundland, the objective · of which is to obstruct the sealing vessels as they leave st~ John Is aarbour and to r-am them. That is their stated intention. That is

an act of aggression-,Mr· Speaker. And if your ships are being intercepted and being sunk by foreigners,which is what they are -they are a foreign power - well that is

an act of aggression. And should we,or should the Canadian Broad .casting Corporation,or should the federal. government, the Minister of Communications or whoever, should this be allowed? Obviously .· 404

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 172 MJ - 1 MR. F. STAGG: it should not be allowed,because these people r~ly on publicity as their main source of funding. They get an .awful lot of publicity. They-get the kind of publicity that one gets on the teievision in Canada and the three major stations in the United States and all throughout Europe. They get it by manipulative tactics, by use of the media. Well, the Canadian ~roadcasting Corporation is giving aid to the enemy. These people are the enemy in the same manner that the U-boats lurked off St. John's Harbour in the second World War and would sink any ship that carne by.

The Sea Shepherd 1 even though it might be a oornical looking craft, going around•with barbed wire around its decks to ward off the boarding parties, is no less an aggressor and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has a crew on board just'in case something interesting would happen.

So I say to the Canadian Broadcasting Corpor~tion and Pierre Juneau and all of the rest of them, 'Get our people, these Newfoundlanders, off that boat and get them back to covering matters that are consistent with being good Canadians.' Things that are not subversive, things that are not involved with giving aid and comfort to the enemy. MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : Order, please! I would like to advise the hon. member that·his time has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave, Mr. Speaker? By leave ? Agreed. Agreed. MR. STAGG: I will finish up in a couple minutes.

I thank gentlemen opposite fo~ that. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation which in many ways ~oes yeoman service in the world in 405 --,

March 9, 1983 Tape No. 172 MJ - 2 MR. F. STAGG .: exposing things that are reprehensible; The Fifth Estate and some of these programmes do great work in that regard. Well, The Fifth Estate, I suggest, should investigate the CBC. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: His time is up. By leave. By leave? Well, who gave him leave? Your colleagues gave me leave. So, Mr. Speaker, for the reasons that I have enunciated, and for the reasons enunicated so eloquently by the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin), and for the reasons that will be enunciated by my colleagues to follow me, I will not be voting for this motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. H. ANDREWS : MR. SPEAKER: Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of the Thank you. If there i