Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY .SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATI.M REPORT MONDAY, MAY 17, 1976 Number 65 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,..

}fa y 17, 1 <J 76 TI1e House met at 2:00P.M. "'r. f.peaker in the Chair. ~'P. SPEAKE!>: nrner, please~ Tape 2723 The hon. Fin:lster of ~'ines ann F:nerp,y. IB-1 Yl'!. Cl'!OSBJE: Yr. Speaker, J am sure the House would like to pass a resolutton in connect-ton with the passing last week of the widow of the late A.E. Hickman ~<'ho was at one til'le Prime J-<inister of the Island or of the :lom:lnion of NeFfoundland in the pre-Confederation days. }'rs.

Pickman ~Jho '''as ninety - her husband died in 1943,! believe - is our last connection,! would think,to the pre-Confederation House of As!'emhly. f'erta:lnly she is the lnst surviv:lnr; ,,d dOh' of any Premier or PriMe ~l:lnister of the pre-1949 rlays of this House of Assembly. So with the concurrence of the House Leader of the official Opposition,I would like to move that the House send the usual resolution of sympathy and passion to llrs. Rick111an ann her survivors. 'll>. SPF:AKF.R: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. l"'l'. P.OHE: Yr.

Speaker, I would like on behalf of my colleagues to endorse the rell'arJ.-s by the ~ 11nister of Pines and Enerp:y and H is only my pleasure to second the motion. MT'. SPEAKER: Tl1e hon. member for Twillingate. }'!'. <;~'AI.LWC10D: 1·'r. Speal<er, I vras a very close and rather intimate friend of the last Pr:!rne 1"-tn:l.ster, the husband of the late }~rs. Jlickman. I Has in very, very close association indeed wUh him when he was leader of the Opposition. P.e never nid become Prime Minister. He was leader of the Oppos:!.tion.

And it was felt that there was no way in wh:lch be could poss:l.bly win the Premiership of the Province. So efforts were made to induce him to retire. He was without a doubt one of the ablest businessmen that this Island ever produced. He Has an extraordinarily able businessman and an extremely successful one. l11s wiPow reacherl the astonishin~ ape of ninety year of age, whjch is a very fine age indeen . . T.t is echo of the past truly. Mr. 78\5

Hay 17, 1976 Tape 2723 Ill-2 llP • S}~ALL FOOD: Hickman was elected in the district of Bay de Verde~J believe,as one of t1~0 men elected at the same t:lme - it was a two man district I believe - as one of two wen,the other being the late Sir John Crosbie, t\m ynen being elected one Libera] and one not, using the labels of that time. lle was subsequently elected two or three times in that constituency. Though I have a feeling that he once ran for and was elected in Port ne Grave. But then I think that Sir John Crosbie did the same thing.

I believe that Sir John Crosbie also was elected for the district of Port De Grave. But Bay De Verde was the base, the political base of both hen. gentlemen. It br:lnpR hack a lot of memories to me to hear of the passing of Nrs. Hickman. I did not dream that she was still living. I wonder hm• many others are living in Newfoundland today that we do not dream of, we do not suspect them to he still livtng, that we would have assumed had passecl on years and years ago.

I certainly join with the hon. minister in the resolution that he has proposed. _!~· SPEAKER: Let it be noted that an appropriate copy of the sentiments of the House ••:Ill be sent. I shou] d before C"all:l.ng for Ministerial Statements now ~'elcome to the galleries this afternoon thirty-one students from s,mnyside Integrated School. They are Crane _m!. students accompanied hy their teacher~ ~~r. B. Stagg. On behalf of all hen. members I welcome the young people to the House of Assembly and hope that your visit w:lll be an interesting one and an instructive one. Hear, hear! 78~6

.t '';,y 17, 1976 Tape 2724 IB-1 STATF.!'ENTS BY mNUTJ\RS: ~'TI. SPF.AKF:l': YP. • l'F.CKPmm : The hon. ~'inister of ~funicipal Affairs and P.ousinr. ''r. Speaker, for some ti!!'.e no~Y the provincial rovemm .ent haR recorn:lzed the need for a plan to protect buyers of nevr homes agn 1nst substandard construction by builders or failure on the p~rt of the builders due to bankruptcy or abandonl"ent.

Since 1972 representatives of the fereral and provincial governments together with various ]endinR institutions, consumer associations and builders h~ve met and ~1scussec1 a proposed national warranty and insurance plan. However, this sc1·1e!!'e was later shelved as a number of the provinces did not a~ree with the plan. Subsequently provtnces such as Alberta and "'anitoha pnt into effect their own vm.rrant] y pro11:ramme. '~"oJ 1 m-.rin~ th:l s setback active negotiat:l .ons and discussions took place on the introduction of a home warranty pror;ra1!!1T1e for the At] ;mtic ProvincPs.

Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Newfoundlancl members of the Housinr, and Frban nevelopment Associat:lon of Canacla, 1--riefly kno't<m as TIUDAC, together w:f.th the resid .ential

section of tlle Prince F.chrard Jsland Construction Association,h:we now proposed to the ministers responsible for housing in the Atlantic Provinces a warranty plan based on that presently in effect in Alberta. Hinisters of Housing anc1 hous:f.ng offici~ls from the four ~tl antic J'rovinces tocether '~:1 th representatives from inclustry wiJ 1 mf'f't on r,Jeclnesf!ay, >.ray 1 q at the Holiday Inn in St. John's and a final cledsion is expected on a regional t.rarranty plan for the Atlantic Provinces. I mir,ht go on to add, ~·r.

Speaker, that in meet:ln12;s earlier, ahout two months .~go, the Yi.nisters of T'ousi.nJ! asked the industry, l!T'11AC~ and !!l!':o the PET r.onstruction Association that if they presented to us within forty-five c1ays not only the kind of plan thnt was presentlv in existence in Alberta,which we were aware of ;my" '"Y' l1ut the:f.r budgets, how they intended to run the programme and very f!etailecl cost analysis of the whole plan, how they anticipate(! carry:f.np.; it out :fn all the province9, that H they did that within forty-five days ,,,e t.roulc1 respon~ to them within forty-five c1ays :l.n 78~7

~1ay 17, 1976 Tape 2724 Ill-2 ''ll . J'F. CJ<FO T?.D : an effort to expedite tb1.s kind of programme which is badly needed in the Atlantic Provinces. They have responded within forty-five clays and it is hopen that we 1<Hl respond on Wednesday to the industry. It is further hoped that before this year is out,and se,reral months before this year is out,this horre warranty insurance scheme ~rill be :In ex1stence in all the Atlantic Pro\rinces. Hear, hear! ~'R . !'PEAFEP: ~'R . n •nN~: The hon. memrer for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir. Mr. Speaker.

I ~muld like to say a word on behalf of my colleagues here in the official Opposit:! .on. I and my colleagues welcome the indications from the Hinister of }funic:l.pal Affairs and Housin~. I am looking forward to an announcement following the meetings on the nineteenth of the month. J hope that he can then infoY1'1 us and inform the people of Newfoundland that he has brought to a successful conclusion an item that he has been working on for SOIT'e till'e. I personallv would like to commend the m:!.nister for the in1t1ative that he has taken on this matter.

It has been a matter that has been a subject of some dialogue and a considerable aiT'ount of comment from him. T believe the advent of a ho111e warranty pJ an for the peopJ e of this Province, for the home owners will be a very welcome fact indeed. It is another area where some initiatives are required by government to protect the consumer. I am delighted to see the government getti.np act:lvely involved in this particular area. Once we hear the announcement, hear the details. hear what it is going to cost the individual home owner,of course. we will be in more of a position to make some detailed comment on it.

But we certainly enrlorse ~~hoJ.eheartedJy the principle which the minister is pursuing. ''P.. SPEAKER: The hon. wember for Twillingate. }'>'. snt.LWlOn: }lr. Speaker, it :! s beg:!rming to get to be a bit monotonous hut T h:we risen in wy pJ ace s·o often in this session to conr.ratul!tte min:lsters in the administrai.!on on steps taken by them 78i8

''lay 1 7, 19 76 Tape :nzs IR-1 ''n S"J\TJ.T,lO()D: nr announced to he taken by them that 1 would alrrost welcowe something thnt 1 could oppose. They are to he commended as the last bon. gentleman said. 'they are to be commended. They are to be conrratulated. :r knovr this muchtthat the Premier m.ust be very pro11d to have so large a nmrher as he has got of young, energetic 1Tiinisters, energetic, younf and a.mhitious ;md determined to make a JT>ark for themselves in the history of our Island, of our Province.

The late~t of them is the l":!nister of r<unicipal Affairs and Housing •·ho 1 may say :! s a revelation to l'!e. I never sm,T him in action until J came :Into tbis !louse a~ a member a few months ago, five or six months ago. He is one of a •rhole hatch of young turks sitting immediately oppo~ite me Jed by the venerable l"in:!ster of Finance vrho by comparison is an oldster. llut nevertheless sitting as he ts w:!.th these young t11rks he must feel that much younp;er and that much more youthful.

T clo congratulate not only the min:!.ster hut that '"hole batch sitting there :In that ~ecti . on that I am so proud to have the honour to be sitting opposite, "F . SPEIIKF.P : 'IT' • nnnnm~ : P~ESENTING PETITIONS: The hon, meMber for Port au Port. Fr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a. petition on behalf of the 275 re.s:!dents of the ·communities of Three Pock Cove and ~lain] and tn the dtstrict of Port au Port. The prayer of the pet:! tion is that we, the unders:! p,ned, w:! sh to have the road to and throuvh the co1!'1T'unitl es of Three 'Pock rove and ~'ainland properly upgraded and maintained. "r.

Speaker, the children from Three !lock Cove all go to ~chool in Lourdes. The children of "ai.nland above Crade II 111ust also travel to Lonrcles,whic.h is a rl:f.stnnce of twelve miles one way1 and twenty-four miles return each clay. Those children are being tortUl·~c1 to deatl1 on school buses. This morninp the school bus from PHinland to Lourdes was empty because the parents in that community refused to send their children to school because of the 78~9

~'ay 17, 1976 Tape ~725 IB-2 '!T'. HODDEP.: roarl con~:!tions. I recently wrote the ~inister of Transportation and Communications about this roao and I was informed that the department h<'~d spent $50,000 on the road last year and the letter stated that it was the opinion of the minister that the road would now adequately be maintained with the men and equipment that are presently on the Port au Port Peninsula.

The $50,000 was spent mostly in the co~unity of ~ainlandt hut the roan through Three J'.ock r.ove and beyond '"as not upgraded and if there was $50,000 spent there it did not go very far since only about one quarter of the road had anything done ,.ith it. I would invitE' . thE' m:!n:lster to come out and have a look at the road as well as othE'r roa~s in the district. This road breaks up every Spring and this year a half-J.oa~ limit 1oas placed on it.

As lvell the road 1:1 es close to the sea shore and the prevailing 1oind blows the sand and g:r11vel from the road during the dry parts of the year and leaves the road in rou~h, rocky con~ition. Also the type of gravel that js put on the road is sandy and this just adds to the problem. I feel that over the past eight years that there have been more complaints from residents of this area than from any other road in that ~:!strict and possibly in Hestern Newfoundland.

The local people wfth the nepartment of Transportati-on and Communications 1n Stephenville have told me thllt they need more money to put the road in proper condition. I feel that ft is essential that this area receive extra help. Of course the f:!.nal solution would be paving. An incident that happened a week and a half ago ~ras that a p;rader got stuck in the road, a grader that was grading the road got stuck in the road nellr Three nock r.ove and blocked traffic. T.:ot.<;t t-.•eek I drove over that road and I can personally assure the mir.Jster that the road is in very had condition.

My car has a broken shock to prove it. l'r. Speaker, there are approximately 1, 000 people livint in those communities. They have had to put up with

"ay 17, 1971i Tape 2725 IB-3 ""'. r•rmnF.P: nn lnferi~r ron~ for a long tjme. I ask the ~·inister of Transportation and l.ommuni cations to do something to put this 11'atter right. I ask that the petition ?e referred to the depa rtment to 1\.f\ich it relates. t'l' . SPE./1.1\'EP: 1'1'. J . JJINSOI>: Hear, bear ! ThP hon . member for Fortune-Hermitage. •·r. Speal:e r, I ce"ttainly would like to support the retition 'iS pre(l<'ntetl by my colleague for Port au Port (~'r. Ro~de r). f"l•viou:;l y the road in in terrible condition ancl the kids at'e havinll a rot•nh time roi.np over J t. If the grade t' ~ot s tuck it must be t"eally ha<l. 7851 ,.. ,.

'lay 17 , 1 °7f• '!'ape ~!o . 272f> Nl'( - 1 ''R. J . •.m·o~f.Nt: 1t is cnlled Three Roclt Cove . Apparently there nrl' Mor e roc ks than thr E'.e the r e , and I c ertainly thin k th:~t ol t hnuRh the ' linister of Tt"anspo rt has got quite a hit nn nis "late now he is going to have to t ake care of a little moT'l'. t have r:ruch plensu re in supporting that pntition . "R.

S P F'.AICF.~: 'IlL "flP.CA : ThC' 1-c>n. '~t•1i.!l ter of TrPnsrn r t at ion and Cnmrrunicat ions . tlr. ~~H~aker, in c=ting on the petitf on from t hP. tl'~ifl ent s oF Three rtocl; CovEl and the ~lainlnnd thnt J cnn a~:sure the hon . geutleman who presented the petitio n to th<! Pt-une of A:;SC'"lhly thnt I ~11 ll be lookinp, at that ron~ in th<' next num~er of days and if at alJ possib le, ~ f my :;chedule allows 'lie to do :;o , I •.1i ll br. travelli ng to tha t ~rC'a hopefully in the next nur.ber of days and take a loo k f i r~: t hancl. P~l'SFNT'NCi prnnJnS IW '"TA'IDPIG AND <;'PPC".IAL C~ITIT~: '-'r.

":-c.-kt>r , 'Iince the governm<'n t hav~? r cfw:c-d , '"lr, to tnhle t he rcJ)Ort brt1-1een t'1C' 'foorinr. rovC' '~•tild1n~ ~onnrmy TS"'i.tet' ;me' T':l.she'::y Protluct:; "arystown Tir!•etl :1n•l "!<:lter y "roclucU Limited , it &ive!> l!'e r.r C'at r lr~ llr<' rn t:Jl' 1 t' tlw :>~rC'C'MNl t, <;j r . MR. OOODV: Titnt 1.!> only one of them. MR. I'ECKrORD: •·:tc-r" ~ r e the oth er five? ' "' . '!r_.-.r.y: J 1-'1.11 tahlc i t or.e day at ;t tt~e . O!V\l, OLtf.S'riO~lS : · ~ srEA~r..: "'''e !:on . LC':!clcr of the 0pr-o"!itlon . !"()tf.R'!'f.: '-'r .

Speaker , in t he absen ce of bo t h t hP- Premie r anti thP lloulic T.e;tc!C'r perhaps the Yinister of Justice can answer "~Y quC'stion , In v!c11 of the fact thP.t the Supreme Cour t o£ Canada iuwc rej ectC't' the arpl.icnti.on for leave to appeal made i n hehalf ;. ( til<' fomc-r ~:~emhe r for Tlonsvista North (v:: . C':ross) , can Ill' now . 7852·

''ny 17, 1 '171\ Tape ~Io. 2726 tfJl. ROllr.RT~ : hnvc an announcement of when the people of ~onavfsta North will he allowed to elect a member to represent thC'•n in the Honse of Assembly, Sir? That announcement, T am sure, ~fr. Speaker, 1~111 be made by the hon. the Premier in due course. 'm SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. !m. NRAJW: }fr.

Spectker, could t'le Minister of ~ines and Enerp;y, Sir, tell the !louse if the government has yet received nny firm proposals in connection with the revitalization or the reopcninr.; of the Come lly Chance Oil P.efinerv? vr~ .• 'ffi. 'lr.. ~·.f'R • SPEAKER: CROSJIJE: Speaker. S1'"EAKF.R: The han. Hinister of ~lines and Energy. TltPl:C is no ch:mp;e in the situation, The han. member for Windsor -· Jluchans. trn. FT.I\.TIT: To the !li.ni .ster of TransportatioP anc1 Communications, Hr. ~peaker.

Would the minister advise the House now that the tender for the reconstruction of the one mile on the Trans-Canada ~!est of Gran.d 'F'alls is called, but I note that the tender: ' call itself does not close until the 6th. of June,which is over three IJeeks, so it will be presumable it ~orl.ll be a couple of more wcel~s hefore any work is started. The question)of course, is will the main Trans-canada Highway be kept closed?

Now that the ••ater levels arc gone down, there is no more danger there right now, rir,ht today, than there wot•ld be in any other strip of the road 0 Now 1dll the road be opened or will we continue to use the detour? ~m . Sl'F.A!:ER : 'IR. HORGAN: The han. }finister of Transportation and Communications. Hr. Speaker, th11t

section of highway, the han. s>:entleman is correct, tenders have now been called. The.y will he closinr- I think it is .Tune 3rd., not June 6th-;' In the early part of June they ~tre closing and we are hoping the successful bidder tdll be in a position to commence work immediately. In the meantime T have issued ir.structions to the Grand Falls Regional Office to use the maintenance crews to carry out improvements on the detour, the 7853

Hny 17, 1~71> Tape No. 2726 road uses a detour,and to carry on with the t~ork on thnt

section of road to carry out further improvement. Then I have also issued instructions to have that same

section of road covc1:cd 'lilitl~ liquid calciwn to retain the rlu~> t :md if 'lile see tht' situation is not to the sati,.factinn oi: the motorist the re is a possibility we may have to nave that snall

section for the summer period. Because my intent ion is co l·.ecp that

section of the Trans-<:anada close d until the cn~qtruction is carried out. ~lit. Sl:!CtONS: Mr. Speaker - ThP hon . member for Burgeo -Bay d ' Espo tr. But hefor<.> recogni.zin!t him 1 "'onlil like to ~:elcome to the r,a.1leries some adrlitionnl students, apart from those from Sunny side uho wt>r<> lvelcomed e;~rlier, anc! that is apnroxiMatcly seventy­ five sturlents fr:Ol'l St . "ark's Fler>tP.ntary School, grade seven antl p,r.1dn d .r,ht students from ~hearstot-'11 alone wit h their t e ac11Prs ''r. nn rTE'tt, 'tr . l'i.c:hor and '1rs .

Moores, and to these students nn-' teAchers AS Nt>ll fro"' ~hearst<Y.m •on behalf of nll hnn . MP."'h"r" T <'Xtenn a H('l coma and the hope that your vis1 t he-re- ~·t 11 ,,,. :m intrrcst:lnl' onr .

''ny 17; l'l7fi Tape 2727 IB-1 ~'l'. SJ'EAKEP.: The hon. me!"ber. for Burgeo-Bay n'Espoir. On a supplementary. Just for clar:lf:lcat:l.on I was not followtnp: the IT'.inister coropletely. He mentioned th~ calcium, but o:lfd he imUcate there . .:!-s going to be some upgrading of the road, the detour, ·as well? It is on an angle. !fR. LllNDRIGAN: t1R. s nooNs! No, no. Of the deto_ur I am talking about now. ~. ~~'lRCAN: Yes, Hr. Speaker. I indicated that there are being, in fact now there are improvements being carried out. Th:ls will continue by our ~intenance crews.

And when the road, the detour i~ reconstructed to a level we think is satisfactory for this ~uml"er wt! will then cover the road with liquid calcium anc't hopefully this ,,rill be sufficient for the period l~hile the main Trans-Canada :Is under reconstruction and that work is carriec't out. But if not there :Is a possibility we may look at the possibility of paving the c'tetour as well for the ~ummer periocl, just a layer of asphalt. ~m. SJ'EAIQ:l': The hon. member for LaPoile. ~"!! . • NFARY: ~r.

Spe~er, r would like to ask the ~inister of Transportation and Communtcations why :It is at this late date that between 30,000 and 40,000 motor veh:l.cles have not been licen-sed? Could the minister gi-ve the House some reason for that? ~. SI'EAimR: The hon. ~inister of Transportation and Communications~ HR • 1'0RC'A'i : ~lr. Speaker, that is a very difficult question to anst~er. It depends on the individual owners of these motor vehicles, "''hen they want to license- these vehicles.

I a.'!ll of the opinion that many of these vehicles are not commercial but vacation sports type vehicles, for example, cal!'per trailers and of that nature. ~ut it is up to the individuals themselves when they want to license their vehicles, the owners of the vehicles. - - HR. NEARY: Hell, ''r. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the l"in:lster · indicate to the House if it is the high insurance rates that is stopping people from l:l.cens:lng these vehiclesl A lot of them are motor cars hy the way, not just commercial vehicles. 7855.,

f-'ay 17, 1976 Tape 2727 IB-2 ~!R. SPEAKEll: The hon. 1-Kinister of Transportation and Communications. Mn. !'~ORGAN: l'r. Speaker, I have received no indication. To date I receiverl one piece of correspondenceJand that was from a welfare recipient,who complained to me about the fact that he was unable to purchase the necessary insurance. But that is the only correspondence tve have received in my office. I understand from the Registrar of Motor ''ehicles there has been no correspondence indicating that they have a vehicle and cannot afford to purchase the insurance. NR..

SPEAKEP: The hon. member for Bay Verte-White Bay. ~. PIDEOUT: A question for the Minister of Health.please. Could ' the minister tell the l'ouse whether any firm decision has yet been taken tvith regards to the closing down of 200 acute care hospital beds'! And could he Rive the House some indication where these closedowns are to take ?lace? }!R. SPEAI<El'.: The hon. Minister of Health. l>IJ!. H. COLLINS: ~~r. Speaker, I cannot add tot~ much more to what l said over the tveekend and that :is that we have met twice with the two parent r.roups, the Hospital Association and the Medical Association.

He have met "•ith all of the individual hosp:f.tals across the l'rovlnce. They have all been told just what the budgetary restrictions are. I must say, Yr. Speaker, that all of the people we have discussed this with are sympathetic. They realize the position of the Province as was ennuc:iated in the Budget Speech and they will do their best to try and accomplish what we are about to do. I do not intend to identify the hospitals by telling them ~mat beds they are supposed to close. I think that would be interfering "dth the operation of the board and interfering ~lith the prerogative of the hoard.

They have indicated to us that they are concerned ahout the possibility of impairing the quality of the health care. system. I hav~ indicated to them that that is a concern of ours as "•ell, a concern of the govern112nt and certainly a concern of m:fne. I have agreed to appoint a review committee made up of a member from the "edical Association, a member from the Hospital 1856

':.y 17, 19 7(1 Ta,pe 2727 11\-3 m. H. COLLIN~; Associatiqn and my own ass:l.stant Deputy :M:I.nister of Health, Dr·. Klippert who will 1110n!tor the situat:l .on weeldy, daily if necessary and keep reports c~ing to ~ so that I will be in a position to know exactly what ill going on in tenns of whether ther.e is, fn fact, any impairment of the system. 1! that is the case, 'T. Speaker, then I will c:e.rtainly want to know it. I cannot tell the liouse mat I will do but certa:!nly I thlnk if there is that situation that we will have to revi~w the whole thing agJtin. ~ . ~PEAK&P : A supplementary?

MR. l'.IDEOTJT: Yes, 1'r. Speaker. The minister has indica -ted that he has met with the ll'edical. people involved and that there has heen some degree of consensus. But is the l!rlnister intending to tell this House of Assembly and tell the people of this Province exactly where those close downs of hospital beds are to take place. I think the people should know. ~. SPEAKEP.: The hon. T-'inister of Realth. !'.!' · 11 . COLL IN~ : !r. Speaker, a s I sa id , I no not in ten d to tel l the hospitals, look tllis one has to close twenty .beds l!Dd someone ' els~ thirty beds.

We know that in some of the larger hospital!! .it might be difficult to close anythin .g less than a unit. For :l.nst~~Uce it could veey well - 7857

Tap~ '1o. 272~ ~!" - 1 Are there :my hospitals that the gov<:>rnl'\cnt runs wlt'wut an'' hoarclf'? ro, !lr. :.pca~:e-r, because grne-rally sp-eakin~ thf' hospltaJ ~ w'Jic'' the v,ovcrnnent operates 1 gen~ral1y STJeakin~ 1 NIT cottar, <' typP 11ospitals)in fact 1some of those are under boards under The l!ospita .l Act. The cntt<~:ce hospital system has not escaped the .,.rstr:ctints rror,ro.~<:>.

"'here has been are;;s uhereby >~e hnve frn?:<i'n poni.t1 ons hut it j r. :T r\1 ffcrent quinta] of fi"h when nnP lnnl·s at a r;mn1.1 institution like a cotta~e hospital Hhen e<impnrctl to .:m institution l:Uce> the Grace or indeed the Central ' leufoundlan-1 !'nsnita]. To anm•cr the hon. Member's rruestion, thr 110<lp:!tn1s ••hich •·rill he affected as far as we can see now, n~ are sure, tlH• hospitals which are goinp, to he affected nre goinr. to he '1tcphcnville, Corner Brook, St. Anthony, Grand Falls, rander ·. When ,.,e come to St. John's we are lool·ing nt the !irace, t~lCl f:cner.al, St.

Clare's and the Janeway. Those hospitals •·dJ 1 no ernul' t have to cut back some of their services. ''1', . lnl)F.'lllT : ·~. Sl'F.AKF.'r: ;·<~. qrnEnuT: A supplementary, }fr. Speaker. A suppl~mentary. T Hnnder if the minister could inform the Tlom;e " hether or not his department and the medical people are thinkinr, in terms of proviclinr, any h ."lc~: -up services to take care 0f contl.n~cncics, to herp contin~endes in thi.G field? 'fR • <:l>F.N<ER: The hor .. 'fini!<ter of Health . "R. C0U.I NS : ~r. Speaker, there is a home care service in St . John's.

It is relatively a new service , I suppose 1 in that it ha" not heen :l.n operation for any considerable period of time, no great number of years , hut there is a service established and we certatnly will he lookinr, at alternatives and that is · one of the alternative types of services which we will be sympathetic to and he ahlc to as::;ist. 7858

''av 17, 1!:'7f. Taoe No. 2778 NK- 2 ' !!' . COT.J.nt<;: There is also a fntrly substantial move re;lnr. mn<IC' in the Central l'{('lvfoundl.an rl TICillpitnl in C:rand f'alls in tC'rmll of home core . C)ther thnn thnt, )fr . Speaker, there is vr.ry little h<linr, develo!)cd so far. But that is an area whic'' ~•c nrc r.oin~ to have to, not only f'.Jtl)lor<>, it h~ts been explored, hut to fostC'r and support . V.e tmulc! also hope, ~'r.

Speaker, that we can put 'TlnrC> JHit:!.C'nts throur,h the hosnital l?YStem in terms of not outt;l.ntt nnt;ients in on acute care bed 1.mt:1.J the time hns romC' fCir sur~erv or what~vor nnrl to try and move t~em throu~h .1~' l)ulc !ttv ns we can, again without impairing hC'n I th C.'\l' C. Rut T t h1nk, ~r . Speaker, the essC'nt~~l thiny. he re i. ~ t hnt the-re- h:~s hcC'n considerable consultatinn and. t here ha"' bern a~reerr.c-nt on the Review Committee approach.

And I can nssur<> the House that WP. nre concerned nbout this as well and t hat we will be monitrrinr. t''e situation very closely and in thC' event tnAt T h~·IP. to r~>consiclr.r it , cert:linly T will. ''1'. S'~>r.A tCP. '!.: ,,<> hon. nc>.mbcr for '!'1.1.lling<lte . ''T'.

S"AT.J.IIt)"l'l: '!r. <:pea~r, woul rl the hon. r.entlcman tl"ll us in cnnn r rt1on with this cnmmittee that l!ns hP~>n ap!'o in tc>·l , ,1t'C t ltcy left ., 11nrt: of dnctor'.~; m.nnctnte to dccirl~ on their nwn P.Y.TH•rt JcnowlNir.<' '1n<l C'xpericnco, or IHW!' they hP.en f:',iven specinl t<>nns o( rcf e rl"nCC' ns for ~>x:tmnlc 11. ~reat hosr:l tal at C.r:md "nlls ~•h1ch lr. r ry1n:; f<'r CX'Onnnion nn~ Pxtcntio:t and more hf>{ln i"ncl the "ur ln J>eninsuln nositton where thC'y are crying for .. ho~nttnl, i~ there to ~e a sort of across thP ho01rd reduction r<'r arrll<>!'ls of the-se ctrcumstnnces or is discretion left ':1 th<" hnmls nf r he col11!"'.ittN• nnd has the minister given t"el" "'""'" i nrlic:'\tion nlonr. t!1at l:tne? 7859

·•a:,• 17 , 1 n7 f. "11'' - 1 ·~. SPEAKF.R: "'he llol'l. ''i.r.ist'lr of :tec:lt!t. ••r. c;l)en'-cr, t'l<! t:Unc. c- f the yc:~r <'Pllroac lting :"0'~, t 1H• <:u"'T''r--r :>"A.'lon, ~ thi!ll· if there Here no rest mint:; tn·or.r= nt 1111 HC' •·•ou]d f:ln<' i,n 11omP. of the institutions .~cr" r~ t'le rt"ov"!.r>ce that beds will be closed in some \Ill~ r:r. and m:~yhe> ~o '!lc units tdJ l be clo:'le<1 altop.ethet" lil:e s .,.,,l ~c-al sur~:!.c:t! uni.t ror a psychiatric unit or ~~'tatf'ver. That ''aS l\'lfl i'COPt 1 7860

'!ay17,1976 TPpP 2729 IB-1 ,.,.n rt. r.nr,LINS : alniost every SuTT1!'1er :In the past tn many of the :Institutions to which T -referrerl. Thi.s is brought about by Cloctors vacations, nurses vacations, :etc. ;md we have had a lot of <'lis cuss :1 on ori this and \Je h•we :!nit:! cateCI to the hosp1t11ls that ~7 e would hope to accompl:!.sh 1••111\t we a·re try:lor. to accompl:!sh now in the Summer months at least without any layoffs, accomplished hy attrit i on.

H;lth rer,arc'l to the T>eview Board the name of the p;ame is that no doubt if the >~e(l:lcal Association when they ~ive me their representative torlay, please goodness, that person will be a Cloctor, kno1o•lec'lp:eahle :In the hospital system. The Hospital Association no t'touht 1,•Hl select the best person in their views who can do the job for the hosptta1 ac:1ndn1.str.ators as it were. My own assistant They Deputy Min:l.ster, Dr. R'l-tppert, 1..•ill constitute that coiJ!IIlittee. wHl be r,ivinr. me reports ever y day.

I do not knoH about every ilay hut tla1Jy if necess11ry, let us say every day, to incUcate to me what the :11!1plicat1ons are on any particular institution. lf :It means that people are ~oin~ to have to be laved off immediately, if it means that some important surgery is gQing to have to hf' deferre<'l unnecessarily, the!'<e sorts of thinp.s. Jlut we are giv:lnp: the'!!' no te!'l"s of reference other than to watch very carefully nnd monitor continually to ensure that there will be no impairment :In terms of qual:lt~· of care. ~ '!'.

SPEJI.KEP : 1 '1' • Nl'A.RY : TI1e hon. memher for LpPoile. ~ <r. <:peaker, 1: have a question for the Minister of ''uni c1pal Affairs and Housing. vJonld the min:l.ster indicate to the House Hhether the minister is in a position yet to make an announcement on the upheaval that is taking place in the m:lnister's department, t,>betber of h'f.!'; own <loing or of somebody else's domg I do not k.no~7, :In connection with the resignation of his deputy 'lll:l.nister and/or any other officials of the department ~1ho may be e:J ther asked to re !'drn or ~rho <vilJ be resigning? -~IT' • !;PEJ\XI\T' : ~'P..

PFr.KF(ll'D: The hon. Jlinister of Mun:lcipal Affairs and Housinr. ~·r. Speaker, I k. nov' of no upheaval :In the department. 78·61

~'ay 17, J'l7f. Tape 2729 Ill-2 ,,,., PF.CT~Fnrn · In re·pJy to a nuest:!on last week concernin~ my deputy minister, I ~a:!d I would he makinr an announcement shortly and that still stands. lis· J said J ast ~•eek the only upheaval I kno~r of, there :1 s one in Beirut and I think there is one in Belfast in Northern Ireland and I think Anp.oJa still has some problems. Chile and Argentina have haP soMe trouble over the last number of years. There are a number of political upheavals in the United States relating to the Pepublician and nemocratic parties.

The Liberal Party of Canada seems to be in an a'~ ful disarray - Or<ler, please! lIP.. SPF.AKEP : !"'. PECKFOnn: as well as the Liberal Party in Newfoundland. SOr!E RON. ME~ffiERS: Hear, hear! ><r . REARY: ~' r. Speaker, a supplementary nuestion. Obviously the m:!nister is suffering from pressure of his job, Sir.

Fould the min:!ster :Indicate to the House whether or not the deputy "'in:l .ster of ~~un:! cipal Affa:l .rs and Housing has in actual fact resigner! or was asked to res i Jm? rould the minister give ns a ~irople yes or no. ~.,... l'ECY.FOT'U: J :lnd:l,cated on two separate occasions and I indicate on a t'!Jird occasion that an announcement on that matter will be made shortly, "'r. Speaker. !"'. NEAPY: l'r, Speaker, a suppletnentary quest:lon.

Woul<l the m:!n:!ster inrl:!cate if there is an investiration going on in his departme~t at the moment in connection with consulting engineering fees and loans and guarantees that have been granted municipalities over the last f.ew years. ~'l' . PECKFOR.I) : There has been a cont:! .nuing investigation daily, almost hourly :In the l'epartment of ~un:lcipaJ Affdrs for the past year or t wo, eighteen months, relating to consulting engineers, their work e-n various jobs and that kind of investigation ~rill continue as lon~ as I am minister. T-'1' .

NFA ~' Y : A supplementary. !'lir, could the minister indicate when - 1'J'. SPF.AKF.R: nrder, please! Thfs f.s a supplementary to the last question? 1862

~ ·n y I 7, 19 76 Tape 2729 ~~ . NY.AnY: Yes, Sir. t~. ~P?AKT.P: Tn my own understan~in~ the ]~Rt ~uestion did not nppear tQ ~e to be a supple~entary to the one before. "" NEARY: lt had to do tdth the upheaval - "T'. Sl'F'Al<F.": Tt had to t!o t.'i th municipal affairs 11 realize. ~'T". t-IRAPY: -. in the departtnent, Sir. !'P. NEAnY: '4ould the minister indicate when he expects the IB-3 Jnvesti~ation on consultinp, eng:!neerin$! fees, especially the one in connect :I on with the Bur:fn town council, when these investigations will he Cl"~plete?

"'· I'F.CKF01111: Most if not all the investigations concerning the con~:ultinp. en~ineers in the Department of •!unicipal Affairs are onp.oln~t and are never co~plete. The one spectfic .ally dealing with l'lurfn has been talketl about with the council and 1 think some resolution to the problems relat inl! to engineering firms in that ~nJcipality should be occurring very shortly. '"'· SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windor-Buchans. 7863 ,.

,.,.. :\. . Tape No. ::'73" "'-r. SpcakPr, t~is question to the "inister of .,.r:msportatton and Communications. I \~ant to pursue t\at 1'rans-r.anar1n situ<Jtion for a minute, ~ir.

Given the fact m-1- 1 that the water levels have lo,~erec! in the area now, given the [o.ct th::~t t 1111t -rond is no More hl'!zardous or any less than nn~r othe-r part of the Trans Cano.da, given t~1e department's nh L1 ity tn ~on it or the ,.:ater levels if the danger should occur a~ain and tll(~ dep:1 rtl'lent' s ability to close the ro:1cl on an hour's notice, I vmnt to knm,r why the the rninister has issued-and given again that construction appflrently cnnnot start until mid !::UlTII!ler, why the departnent has issued - if the tender call closrs on the 3rd. of June it is not conceivable to me that the work l·d.ll start before mid July or early .July I·Thich is two months, l>hy is the motoring public being forced to usc that detour that is nmv in very bad condition?

Actually why is the road closed, given as I pointed out the department's ahil i.ty to monitor the situation on an hourly basis? 'lR. S'Pf./\Kl'P: The hen. '{inister of Transportation and Communications. ~!r. Speaker, the water level in the Exploits River was of no danf,er or appeared to be no danger approximately three weeks ar;o, none whatsoever anr'l we saw what occurred out there shortly after that -- '~. l'LIGF"'· You p,ot twelve hours notice, twelve hours notice. '~r.

Speaker, the answer to the hen. p,entletr~r"\n 's question is quite firmly no, The Trans-Canada Highway, that sect:! on o:' ~he llip,hw~'>y will not be reopened until the necessary reconstruction is carried out, which means the lifting of the Trans-Car.ndo arnroximately one mile. Until t!l.at work is carried out the Trans-Canada lligh\~ay, that

section will not be reopened, hut instead the motorists '~ill be using the detour which we plan to keep in good condition. "R. FLIC\1T: A supplementary, ~1r. Speaker.

May 17, 1976 Ta]Je No. 2730 m1- 2 'IR. !;l'EAKER: A sup!"lementary. ln::. FLIGHT: That is not the ans,~er to my question, Sir.. The answer to my question is why it will not be opened. I know it Hi]] not be, the minister has said so, hut tihy is it not goinr, to be opened~ Because I feel it is a necessary precaution to preven·t what 0ccurrecl approximately t1~o Heeks ago. "R. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~ffi • RORF.RTS : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to go after the 'Unister of Transportation and Conmmnications but that is not - instead T 'vill come hack to the r<inister of Health, Sir, 'tlbuld tt,e nlni.ster be specifi.c in telling us what instructions have been lssuf'cl to the hospitals in connection with this move to s<tve money? llave the hospitals in this Province, Sir, individually, I renlize it has not been a r,roun or a class instruction, have the hospitals been told they Must close x beds, tdth it beinr-; np to them what types of beds they close} or have they been told th:1t their budr,ets have been rP.ducecl by an a'llount and that amount is to be saved ''Y them at thei.r discretion?

And could the m1n1ster please be a little mor~ specific thRn he has been 1~ith ref'nect to thi.s ty]Je of question before? '!'hp hon. ~ini.stt:'r of Health. HR. r:0T.LHlS: l'r. Sp0al·~r, T thour;ht T wrrs '\•er.v specific :!,n my rl'snonsl" to that ~Then I saicl that the hospitals have been notif:!ed wh~t the budgetary restra!nts are, the rE'.cluction i.n their budgets are,and 've are leaving it up to those pcopll' to determine as to the best approach to take to that. '"1'. ROllrl?TS : ''r. Speaker • 11 snpplemeP..tl!ry. J- sn)lnlementary.

T th,.nk the rdrd. .o;ter for l,i" anS"'E>T an.-1 ~muld he ;,..,d! r.ntc, ~ir; C'n Phl'lt basis 1JU<'fgets have been cut. There was a hospital ·that askec for ~1 million , that has been told they could have 7865

'lay 17, 1 "~7( '!'ape No. 2730 !i')r.n ,'ln'l, to take figures from thin air, tvoulcl thl• l'llnistC'r lnr1icntr, ;,1r, on what basis the budget cuts w<'r<' nlJnc;~te • \? Were they unlform across the eight or nine 'wnr>i.tals he named on a perc('ntage basis? ~/ere they uniform on n dollar basis? rrerc they irregular?

On just what ha>" is was the choice ma<l<?. 'IlL ~l'f.AKP r.. : Th<' hon. :Unister of Hea l t h . '"'· f:0LLI'l" : Mr. npea'~er, one of the things we wanted to rn>"ure tv!ten t'e •vent throup:h this exercise was that there rmuld he no possthllity of us beinp.: accused of discriminating nr,ainst any particular area.

So all of the hospitals, I mentioned the nm'll", ;mel tl1e places because I might not reMember the names of a] 1 the !·10spital s hut there is around nine or ten of them, the l•udp;etl'rv recluctions are 1ust about un:! form, ccp.tal in all cases. '11L RO'IERTS: Uniform :l.n dollars or unifom in percent? MR. cnu,r·JS: Uniform ir. dollars and percentage, one compared with the other. ' ffi. RnRERTS: lt ca~<ot be both . ''R. C:OLLI'-:'>: It :l.s pretty close. \fR. ROBERTS: 1tr. Speaker, a further supplementary. }!R. SPF.AKEP: A supplementary. ~'!'.. P.OflF.RTS: I cannot debate the minister.

They cannot be ho.th bccaur;e the hudr,ets are not the same. ~. r.oLI.P!~: The impact of the restraint will be equalized to the extent t~at it can be. •m. R"lDERTS: The minister says the impact will be equalized and I have to accept that but I do not agree with it. ~fr. S]Jeaker, t ~ oulcl the m l.nis ter r, l ve us his .1 udgement as to whether or not the needs for hospitals beds are uniform in different c0mmunitie s throughout this Province1 'IR. SPEAKER: The hon. >finister of trealth. '~'f' .• COI.L!NS: Mr.

Sfleaker, that is a difficult question to ans u er. 'P.ut Hhen we look at the areas which are feeiing the .7866

Tape No. 2730 ninch !'!Ore th"n others t~e are lool~ing at the rer;ionaJ syste!lls and I t'l-tink, '1r. Speaker, when we consider :it nn :1. rer,ionnl hnsis then that is ahout as fair an r1pproach :'IS we con talw to it. ·~~. Sl'f.JI KF.P: II supplementary. 7867

l'ay 17, 1976 Tape 2731 IB-1 Mll • RIPEOt'T: In view of the minister's statement that, you know, hospHals can close beds as such, can the minister reconcile for me vrhere the 200 bec1 figure came from in the budget speech? ~~ . SPEAY.F.P: The hon. ¥-inister of·Health. 1~ .• H. COLLIN~: You know~it is so easy for one to guess what the Opposition are up to. tlJ' .• P.OBE!l.T!': We are trvinp: to guess what the minister is up to. ~1' .• rr. COLLINS: Yes. Well the medical profession knows what the minister is up to anc1 so does the hospital board. ~'l'.

POREFTS: That is why they are against what the minister is doing. ~~. R. r.0LLIN~: They are the people who are providing the service and I am the one responsible for finding the dollars for it,not the Leader. of the C1ppos:!tion. ~'1'. PO·BEP.TS: It ~' ould have been better provided if it was. ~-rr.. IT. f,OLLUlS: The budgetary restraints which we have imposed on the hospital system in Newfoundland will just about equal the clodng of 200 hospital beds, so the hospitals tell us. ~~r.

Speaker, as we go along c1own the road with the "ev:l.ew Committee, as I said hefpre, ~'e v1i1l !<now more, we will have more information and be able to determine if we are on the right track. }IR. PJDEOUT: ~ "F • SPF.AY.En : ~ve would only lose twenty beds ,for heavens sake. The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Burin-Placentia. 1'1P. NEARY: The ~linister of Forestry and Agriculture, Sir, promised me during the last Oral ()uestion period to get some information in connection "'ith an investigation carried out into certain aspects of Newfoundland Pa~ Products by a private detective.

Does the minister have the information today for the House as the minister promised to r,et me the other day? )"!'. SP~AKEP.: The hon. I':lnister of Forestry and Agriculture. _2'P. . P.OtJSSEAU: No,I do not. I will have it for you as soon as I can get it. ~'1'. NMRY: ~·r. Speaker, a supplementary. When does the minister 7868

l'l'IV J7, 1976 Tape 2731 IB-2 .:. ~. l'ffiAllY: expect to have the informat:l.on? It is three weeks now I have been look:lnp, for it. in the House? no I have to go and f:l.nd it myself and table it I·'T'. l'OU!i~EAP: Do you ••ant an honest answer? }T,. NEAPY: Yes. Yl'. ROUSSEAlT: J,!hen I p,et the chance to do it, as soon as I can I will. 0kay? You know, as soon as I get a chance to. is not at the top of my priority l:!st. Right now it ~"!'. ~lEAFY: Hell, Mr. Speaker, it :Is at the top of my priority list. ~m. ll.OT.mSF.ATT: As soon as I have the opportunity I •rill get it for you. You k~oH, no prohle1'1. }!R.

S}~ALLWOOD: W'. SI'F.AKEP: "1'. S~'M.LT•!OOD: ~lr. Speaker - Js this a suppJementary I must ask. the hon. gentleman. A supplementary. yes. To the hon. Hinister of Health. '·lill the ndni.ster - I"R.. ROl!EJ'.TS: l"r. Speaker, to a point of order. I hate to interrupt the hon. member for T~rl.llingate (l~r. Smallwood), Sir, but he d:!.d say it 'Jas a snppJementary and my understanding is that supplementaries !'1ust be sequential to the main Oljesti.on. The question asked by the p;entleman for I.al'n:lle O~r. Neary) was just addressed to the l~inister of Forestry.

I bel:!eve my colleague for Burin-Placentia l·1est O~r. ranning), Sir, :l.s ent:l tled to ask another question as opposed to a flupplementacy. So I suspect. 1 I think,the gentleman for Tw:l.ll.ingate (l'r. Sm11llwood), S:lr, is in that sense out of order. }'R. SIIAJ.Ll-100D: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am. quite happy to relinquish it and ask it tomorro~r. But I understood that h'on. gentiemen folJowinp; the lead of the hon. Leader of the Oppositioil h11ve thi.s very afternoon asked non-sequential supplementary questions. Ml'. ROBERTS: To the same m:Jn1ster.

"!1'. ~"M,I.HOOD: Anc1 this is to the same m.in:l.ster. l'T'. llOBJ\J'TS: No ,it is not. I<P. • ~WAIJ.. HMTI : Yes,this is to the Minister of Health. 7869

l·';..y 17, 1 'l76 T11pe 2731 IB-3 MR. llOBERTS: fd1!. SMALLW'nn: It should be Forestry and Agriculture. If tt is improper or wrong I will ask j t tomorro'~. Rut :If it :l.s a.greellhle to the Rouse I wt'uld like to ask the minister a perfectly si.l"ple question. MR~-~·~S~P=EAKF.~~·~R~: _______ Order, please! S1nce the Leader of the Oppos:l.tion did bring up a point of ord·er, there is one on the floor, I obviously have to deal with it.

The ltnn. pentleman is right :l.n that there was certainly once :Instance uhere there '-''aS a non-sequential, ill my opinion, question asked as a supplementary or ~t least I recoRnized the hon. gentleman for a supplementary and it was to the same minister but to me it did not 1n fact appear to be supplementary. But as I understand H '~hen I recc!?;Tii?.ed the bon. member for LaPoile U!r. Neary) I indicated to the hon. mell'her for 'Rurj.n-Placentia West (Hr. Canning) that I ,.,onld recogn:i ze him next. So I think the proper procedure ~muld be since the hen. !"ember for Twillingate's (~r.

Smallwood) question is not supplementary to the previous one to recognize the hen. member for 1lurin-Placentj a l•'est (Jir. Canning) unless-of course any hon. rnemher can y:!eld actually. Rut I do recognize the hen. me·mber for Burin-,Place .ntia (1-'r. Canning). Mr.

Speaker, wy question is for the :I-'inister of Industrial and Pural ~evelopment. l':l.sing out of the recent layoff of eleven joi.nerl' in the shipyard at Marystown Rnd recently a more recent announcement by the manager of the yard to the effect that the yard has been continually going down since the layoff of over 100 men in Autumn, has the min:lster got any statement on that and could he inform the Rouse if those recent eleven men, will tbere be any possibiJ~t.y of theM beinP, rehired in the near future? ~~ . SPF.AY£R: The hon. ~~inister of Industrial anrl Pural ryevelopment. I·!Jl. Lt'NlJRIC.AN : ' 'r.

Speaker, the answer to the first part of the qne!'t:lon :ls no. I de~ not have anything to add to what has been said. Secondly it :Is impossible for me to indicate whether they ~dll be reM. red in the general sense. Obviously we hope that all of the people w:lll be reh!retl. I believe there roere over 100 people layed off the first layoff. TMs was a small p;roup of carpenters that the member i!' express:lnp his concern ahout, eleven people. 7870

!'ay l 7, l'l7f" Tape No. 2732 N'1 - 1 ~m. Ll!NnRH~AN: We are concerned about that. ~Te have · openly admitte~ th~t we hav~ not heen ahle to attract any new contracts of a si~ni f1.cnnt nature to the !-farysto~m Shipyard. The member ~~i 1 J :tecop;nize that the total ener~ies that we h:tve cl.evoted as a nl'm hoarn of eli rectors, :ts a government to the shipyaro:l. ln recent monthR and years has heen very significant and I rlo not know uhat else we c:m do. If there is any suggestion he has that ~!e can pursue, other types of go11ls 1 we will he qui. te. hapny to do tt.

There are a number of tenders that we have made or bids w'J. i c11 He have mane on votes that have not been firmed up 5.n terT'!s of responses. f'nE' of them '"as the ruiana nne ·~hfch HI:' ,;t! 1 J 'H'!Ve . not received a firm answC\r on and T c;mnot r:lv" the n"T'lhr.-r an incHaatirm as to ~~hy. 1 kno~' that tcnc1c>rR have not herm l'~mro:l.e-1. T'.nt if there :Is any sur,p.estion ..,,.. has ,'JR to hntJ t,re cnn proceccl in attractinr nE't~ tmrk - ~1e ~1ave ne~·> "!annr:cl"ent at t!1e yard, we are very hi!!'J'Y a">out the TH~F mnnar,ement. ~IE' 11.'\Ve a hoard of clirectors that are actively nnrsu:l.n~ t'"tC?

T":tttcr aT'.cl 'le knot·IS all thts so-rt of thing. So my · ~uestion to him is has be got any concrete suggestion as to a-reas we> arc not moving in tl-,n.t ,,,c nig'J.t he able to move in and if f:O PC' ···1.11 '•e hanry to pursue th.c~, a supplementary question. ' 'T' •• Sl'F.AKFR: The hon. "inister of RU:rin -· Placentia, a supnleneiltary. HT'. r.Aw.nw:: Coulcl. you tell the l'!Ous~ so the people in the a~'r·~ 'dU T,noH tha~, is the situation at the shipyan1 and the future of thr shipyarcl,is it hopeless? Is it considered '1oncl ~!ls7 The hon. Minister of Industrial ancl Rural nevelopment: •;r.

T.UNDRir.NT: Jolr. Speal~er, die! he ask me would 1: say to the people of the yard, to confirm that tl'e situation is hopeless? The ans,~er would he a categorical no. The situation is not in the situation that could he classified '"' such. The people of thf' aren l~now, thr:- me111her knmvs that we have not bei!!D able to 7871

'1ny 17, J 'l7F.n Tape No. ~73:' NH -· 2 'lR. LU'mn.Tr.o\n: attract any si~nificant new tmrl~. He also kno~1s th:tt t~is is characteristic of every shipyard in the "'orld today. He also knNvS thnt He are also looking at certain policies of ?OVcrnment, that dotm the road,and it might not bp tomorrotv ~orninp,, it ~i7.ht nean a continuation for a period of some kind of a soft situation in Marystown but certainly the prospects for the yard, as ~~e ] ook ~t it in terms of an investment and the 1<-mr,-tcrm future iR certainly very prosperous.

And we hopP that on an tntcrim hasis we can ensure that there tv1ll be a continuation of n. stable 1.1ork force. TI1ree months ago or so the government awarded a contract for a new ship that is under construction at the nresent moment and that· is one of the responses the government h.;~ve made • Certainly we are very concerned that we have not attracted any new 'imrk. J ~•ould like to be able to announce right now work to increase the work force. I believe we had almost ">00 and it is back now to where the roeml,er was when he left lu~re.

The tmrk force nmv is almost the same as it was tvhen he left here. ~•e were able to bolster the tlork force. Unfortunately it never continued at the higr level that it did. u~. CANNINr.: There were several contracts then. ~m. L'(J:mll!r.IIN: 111r. Speaker, there has been more wcrk clone in '!arystmm since this government took office than in all the previous involvement of the hon. member. SOME P.ON. ''F.I-lBEP.S: Rear! Hear! HR. LU•IDP~ICAN: The hon. member should be aware of that.

Physically the number of boats, the amount of money that has heen snent in the yard has been more significant in the last four years than any ~revious period in its history. We are m·rarc of the fact that we have had - '·IR. CAT·mum: ~<R. Lt!NnRT~A Jlow many contracts were there when you took it over? He are aware of the fact that we have had a - 7872

vay 17 , 1976 Ta pe No. 2732 NM- J ·~n . \.AWITNG: How many contracts? 'IR • SP"'.Al':EJt: 0 r der, please ! 'IP.. LUI'lDRIC:Atl: !-fr. SJ'Ieaker , I cannot answer the member' s quentiomJ - 'IR. SPEAICF'R: The t hi rty ~inu tes has transpired. O~F~ OP TRE DAY: On ~otinn of the hon. Mini ster of Municipal Affairs and llou~<in~ n ''ill , "An Act To .t\mend 'l'he City Of Corner Brook Act , " road a fi r st time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (No. 33) On 1'10tion of the hon. ~'inister of Health a bill , ''An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of Mania~e Act," read a f I r !'l t time, or<lnr P:cl r<':vl a second time on tomorrow .

(54) On motion of th~ hon. ~1n1ster of Provincial Affnirl'l :md Environment a hill , "An Act To Regi ster 'iortgage P. ro k~rs And to r.ontrol The Anount Qf Ronuses To Be Char~ed By 'fortgage Brok~rs , " read a first ti.l!le, or dered read a secontl time '"' tol'lorrm~. (No. 55) On mnt:l.on of the hon. ~'ini.stPr of Justf.ce a bill, "An Act To .•Mf'ntl "'h<' ro!"r-:'lni es /let ," r ead a f"lrst ti'l'le, or t!ered r ead 1\ snco nd t1rf' nn tol'lnrrcn··. (No. 53) 7873

r·'ay 17, 1976 Tape 2733 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order 3, adjourned debate on Committee of Ways and }<eans. l"R. · CROSBIE: ~~r. Speaker, vrhen t.r~ adjourned on Friday I was replying to th1s nonconfidence motion and the sub-amen~ment. The nonconfidence 111otion reads, "This House regrets the failure of the government to ~isclose completely and fully the present financial situa·tion of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the government thereof." The a111.endment reads - And the member for St. John 1 s North (''r. J.

Carter) wishing to help the Opposition out of the difficulties they had obviously gotten themselves into with snch a si.lly motion tried to fix :!_t up so the House could deal wi.th it unanimously by adding, "But realizing the difficult situation facing the Province and in viet~ of the complexity of the situation absolves the govermr.ent from all blame." Now, l'r. SpeaY.er, as I said on Friday we cannot accept that al'lendme·nt to the non-confidence notion because it t¥ould imply that the amendment had something correct or factual about it. Now, l'r.

Speaker, there is nothing sillier than that non-confidence motion that has been hrought into the House by the off:lcial Opposition at this t:l.me, that the government has not disclosed completely and fully the present financial situat:l.on of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrac1or Land the government thereof. That has been fully disclosed. It :Is fully disclosed in the budget that was brought in here by the Vinister of Finance just a few short weeks ago. It was fully disclosec1 v1hen he had a budget last Fall. It was fully clisclosed in the buc1get of his predecessor before him, 1-fr. Earle.

It was fully ~isclosed in the three budgets that I brought into the House in 1972. And the exhibits to this budget give you the economic stat:l:;t1.cs, the debt pos:l.tion, the revenue position, federal and provincial sources, the expenditure

summary, the

summary of borrowing requirements an~ the sources of funds and the total provincial debt. Tt is all here in this document. l-lhat !'lore financial inforMation could he g:lven hy a "inister of J':lnance to the House to fully present the s:ltuat:l.on fully and completely. It is fully and completely presented. 7874

L ~·ay 17, 1976 Tape 2733 IB-2 ''l'. CROSBIE: Hon. gentle'f!l.en opposite understand or seem to understand wh~t the financial pos:ftion of the Province is. The financial position of the Province is a somewhat straitened one. The Province is horro~ing money. This year it has to borrow, $198 million is the forecast, of ~1hich sol'!e $4 7 million or roughly that is to meet deht·coming due, refinanced debt.

Another $150 million is to enable the governl'!ent to carry on with a capital expenditure programme to build some roads, to meet our share of the cost of certain federal-provincial agreements such as DF.EE agreements, to do a ~ural nevelopment loan programme, to carry on with certain capital l,•orks in the Province, $_150 million is for that. Apart altogether from what the budget shows we must borrow we also have to recogn:fze the £act that the Newfoundland r-<unicipal Finance Cc>rporation w:UJ have to borrow money for the municipalit:fes of tpe Province and that will have to be guaranteec1 by the government.

That is on top of what the budget shows. Of course also we have to borrow money guaranteed by the Province for hydro development both on the Island and with respect to Gull Island and the like. Now it :Is not that the government wants to borrow the money Hr. Speaker. The government realizes and I am sure members opposite realize that this Province as well as other provinces are in a ti~ht ffnancial situation. But the government has to ask the Rouse to approve this borrowing if we are going to have any capital works programmes at all. That :Is the nub of the whole problem.

As I mentione~ Friday 'f!lembers opposite are completely inconsistent because they w:fll get · up in one hand and say that the Province is in a bad f:fnanc:f11l positi.on and we should not be borrowing this amount of money or we should not be borrowing at all and then they spend the othPr ninety per cent of their til'!e stating that the government should be spending more money or they are asking what is the government poing to do about unemployment. 787~

V.ay 17, 1976 Tape 2733 IB-3 If the hon. minister will allow me. Please exclude me from that characterization. I am not clamoring for the rovernment to spend money and to borrow money. I aw ap.ainst it, flatly, adamantly 11gainst it. P1.ease dn not include 111e with the party whose leader saiCI we shC>ul.d spend and spend and borrow and borrow. I did not say that. I do not believe it. I w:lll accept that, ~!r. Speaker, that the hon. member for Twillinp,:>te Wr. ~mallwood) has not been vociferiously shoutinp: that we should spend tnore money.

In fact he is utteri.ng rlire "'arninrs that we should not be spending as much and we should restrict our horrowinp, 1 all of which is true in a p.eneral sense,without he:l.np very sped fie as to to.•hat we are going to cut out if we do that. ~o, '~r. ~peaker, '.Je have to compromise and the comprom:l.se is before the committee. We have to spend what we think it is safe to try to borrow to keep the Prov:f.nce operating at all.

As I !T!entioned on Friday and it :Is worth repeat:f.ng, when t•'P are askecl Nhat is the government doing about unemployment we can C>nl y answer,"We are borrowing $150 million this year for certain capital t.;rorks programmes and for rural development loans and the 11.ke that ~1:1 11 create some employment in this Province. We are attempting to develop the hyrlro resources of J.abrador to bring to the Province and it is a diffi.cult task, a formidable task.

We are endeavouring to promote and to have the Province control the development of oil and gas off our shores. v!e are developing a scheme for the processing,for :Increased processing of fish on the Island of Newfound- 1 and as part of the who] e scanario for the 200 mHe Hmit once r.anada takes control of it. l<le are encouraging what mining development ,,,e can. Hi.ning 1.s one of the bright spots on the horizon here in Newfoundland. We are spending a lot of tnoney to keep the Labrador L:fnerhoard r;oing :fn c.onnection with the forestry anc1 to create e!T!plo)'ll'ent.

That :!.s a d:f fficnlt, difficult task because the project was never an economic one from its very inception. These are the things "'e are Cloing to try to combat unemployment in the Province. 7876

Yay 17, 1976 Tape 2733 IB-4 ~~ T!. CROSBIE: But despite what the Province can do - Hr. Speaker, it 'Tiatter:; not a tt•1t what party fori'\S the government of this Province. If it ~1as any party oppo!l'l.te they ~<.>nuld not be able to do anymore to create employment than toe are attempting to do. They might have sol!'e chany.es here or changes in emphasis there but basically they v10uld be able to c1o no more no matter who sits here. As far as our unemployment is concerned and as far as overcoming that is concerned we have to look to the national government. It is just a statement of fact.

They are the only ones who have the resources. I listed the other day, Mr. Speaker, some of the thjngs they were not doin~ to help us overcome these problems. The government of Canada has not adopted any special programmes to overcome unemploy­ ment in this Prov:l.nce or in other hj p:h unemployment 11.reas, There are no special proprammes, just their normal programmes. They have not increased their public works spending in Newfoundland or their construction spendinr: in Nev1foundland. If anything they have decreased it not increased it.

They have not, and in fact in their whole pos:l.tjon vis-a-vis the Provinces, Yr. Speaker, they are tightening up. They have suggested to the provinces that we should drop the revenue f!uRrantee that came into effect when they changed the income tax and revolutionized the income tax ln - House. }'R. CROSBITl: ~IR. SPF.AKJll': }!fl. CPOSlliE: ~·r. !'peaker, I c1o not th1nk there is a quorum in the E1yhteen at the moment.

I a111 info=ed that there is a quoru!l' .• ~·r. ~peaker, rather than the federal government doing any more to help they have now adopted a position, an adamant position wjth respect to the provjnces that is particularly going to tell aga]nst this Provjnee if :It is carried through. For example on the r evenue p,uarantee, r•r. Speaker. That was a guarantee from the government of r.anada that when they changed the income tax and brought in the net·r income tax in 1972 that no province would lose money as a result of thP ~ha~~e in income tax. That is the ~uHrantee they gave. r.nod for five vpars. 7877

"'ay 17, 197fi Tape No. 2734 'Nil - 1 :rn . crn~~u: ''r. Sre:lker, befor~ the five years are up they nmr say tlwy want to change that so that the revenue RUarantcc Hi.ll be changed retroactive to a year ago and will cca~c at tl 1e end of the five years ;rhic!l will mean a loss to t1'if' Province of ~7 million or Sfl million. That is one position th~y ar£'. tal :inp,. T11cy sny they vrant to change the tax cqual~zation formula J,ec:tn s e they fear they arc spending too much under the tax equAli:>.'lt:l.on forr.-u}R. Tf tltey chan~e it, }lr.

Speaker, and the i r Sl'<'nd ing ::;ocs rlo•m under the tax equalization formula tifhat is r,oinr. to hanpen to this Province with over ~2on million of its revr•nue cominr, from tax equalizatton i' And then the Federal Gov.,rnment says in a'lclition that they are going to ch:mr,e tlte sh a re-cost pro::;ramme unilaterally. They put n ceiling on ''cdicare spendinp. so that if "~edicare costs go ur in excess of ten or tt·relve per cent the Province must hear all the adc1it:l.onal cost. They do not share it. "R. S'WLTJ!(l"]) : \oloult:l the hon. gentleman allow me to asl~ him a que s tion?.

Would . he not ar.ree that Canada, the Government of Canada .are in desperate finnnci~l straits and that Canada as a nation 1.s in a worse financial anc1 economic condition than at any time since the great d{!pression of 19~0? 'ffi . CRO~lliT': T t~oulc1 say, lAr. Speaker, th?t Canada has got to watch its finances and it has to decide its pr.1.orities. Jlut if 1t is p.o1.nr. to ma~~ c its cuthacks in areas where Canada inveigle the nrovinces to come :l.nto national programmes and then start cutting hack leavinr. us hold:!.nr, the bag, TJarticularly the weaker Provinces, we will he snuffed out. '!R.

S}fALUJOOD: In other words if we are going to have sacrifice let it be equality of sacrifice? 1iR. r.r..osr.IF.: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I say to this Rouse now that if 7878

Tape No. 2734 'IT:. CROSJHE: the Federal Covern!'1ent 's attitude and these financial matters that I l1ave mentioned, and it i~ not going to arouse anv excitement, it does not sound glamourous, perhaps it is hard to understand, but if they persist in their attitude on the revenue guarantee, on tax equalization, the shared-cost prograrnl!les and the like they will snuff us out financially in the next counle of years po doubt at all about it. '1R. NEARY: Is this a by-election speech yon are making now? ·m. CROS11IE: TI1is is a speech good for any occasion. 'IR.. S~IALLWI)nn: It harpens to be the truth. •m.

NFARY: .Tim Cross must be getting worried. ··m. CROS13IF.: T am speaking, Mr. Speaker, ahnut how the ~rovince is gain?, to comhat unemployment and I am illustrating how the Fed~ral r.overnment, which is the only·one that can help hecau~e whatever their financial position is it is hetter than our, we cannot overcome it. l-le cannot do more t"tan we are doing. Instead of their trying to do something to help, they are not, they are withdrawing their horns. They are pullinR back. '!R. NF.ARY: They ahJays do. ~.ffi.

CROSr.IT': nut nt the srune time, and I will 1ust list a fP<J more items that they are cutting back on, I mentionerl ~ledicare, then• is health in~ur:mce, they are eoin~ to put the ceilings an health insurnnce, the inct'ease in their payments, but that leaves us tn face the real problems. We are the ones that have to <1,;-al tdth hosnHal uorl cers.

We are the ones who have to deal •·•1 th the s.un!'l icrs 0f p,oorl10 nnrl uith :lnflatinn. r,re on.,rate th<' hns rd tal s. ~ut the 'Fer! era] r.overnT"ent is p:oing to say, "~·!" vi.U not SP<'nrl mor<' nr-xt ye<:l"' on health insurance, 1~e <Jill nn1y :1lloH '1.1' "1.f:l'>t nl"r cent :Increase." lind if an :f_ncrense if' fnnrtPPn 1\P'r ~r>nt ('tf thP cost, Pip;hteen., sixteen per cent, 1•rl" 1-1ill '':l"n to shnrC' !'11 thnt :lncro.:tsP ovr-r "ir,ht. '!'hey nrl" not the nne r"nt fnces the stt'f! .·e. Tf they ~,.. on strilrf' :In .'1lJ . our hosp:ltals 7879

"n;- _1 7, , " 1· "'apo;- o. :!734 m.f - 3 fR. CROSnl~ : on the Js1~~n beca~~e w~ wilJ not r,ive t em an .i.ncrc;:~sc> .nt aJ] , or !:1 n v1hec or •·•her ewer it is not the ut if they HU 1 n.nt :;h.,rr> thl'! ~ " i ncrt'nscf. eXDenditurcs ;1here arc vrc J;Oin~ to he? n prctt ·/ r.f'r :!.oufi ros ,tion . "' r:> t ha t is c:1e shared cost of "erlica t c , the shared cost on ·health insurance. on ccul' a in n . Thf'y hi!.Vf' h"Jen contributf.ns to post-sec,n.4 ~ ry Nlucatinr Fn r h" 1.nst nll'nher of years . Today they announced r: > "l•lisr l'r of Finance c ar. ver. i fy this , toc1:>.y they annotmc d t:.

C'' a rc> no t f.<"inr . to nnu their fifty p r cent shnre of the "ost gratu nt {1 f''ucnt ional cost, that t.heir Treasury Board has said ,, ''Hold ncl: , we !:no11 we have P.ot t ,.. meat. - Fow l'luch does it C'rf ,..ct us •y? :m. ~00 ?· An ext r a $111 million . 'f'fl. r:nns !r: -------- ~ lll million th:>.t they are sunnosed to pay the nrl"vi.ncPs 11ndPr t he nost ··seco ndary education pror, r all'dlle, they 01:'1' roinf( to !10ld ~3Ck . his is where they !'lay for technic al scho~ls nprl untvcrsity. They anke a ~rant of so uch per c:l!' l ta . r.P.n~nrr.: Post sP.condary - :IR. . srr. KF~: nrdnr, please !

I am s orrv to interrupt the hon . p,~n ].('man h11t s nee nrty-five ninutes has almost exnirecl t here 1~ ,., ques t ion to hP tlctermined so tha.t tbe rules and precedents do not ~e co~e conf~qed. <: :md i nr. nrder 4q (

a) say s in part, "No memher ," then list E several, _ and then , "Except a minister replying thereto, a minister r eply~ng to n ~otion of nonconfidence shall have more than forty-five ninu t es. " !o'-7 the question to be determined and why T hnvc inter rupted s o ti::tt 1-1e do not get into a confus inp, s i tunt ion J ater on is in order to continue beyond forty-fi1•e minutes , ci her the suh-nmenrlment l'ltlSt be reRarded as a mot i on 7880

'!ny 17_, 1976 Tape No. 2734 NM- 4 'Ill. SPEAKER: of nonconfidence, not the amendment, that is obviously a motion of nonconfidence, either the sub-amendment must be regarded as a motion of nonconfidence or it is generally np.reerl that the hon. minister is the ministf'r speaking in reply to the amendment. In other words in speaking on the sub-amendment he is in his content or in his purpose being the mi~ister who replied to the nonconfidence amendment. Fither one of those or else the general acquiesence of the !louse. ·¥R. SPEAKER: ~1e hon. member for Twillingate. ><n.

SMALLLW'lOD: I am absolutely agreeable to almost anytning thnt Your llonour will rule if Your Honour dof's rulP. or that the House wants, if there is any thin~ that the House doE'.S want. I would like however to have my mind clarified on•one point. Normally ~orhen there is a motion and to that an amendment is made and to the amendment a sub-amendment is made, an amendment to the amendment, the normal procedure h~s always been to put the vote on'the sub-amendment, dispose of it, put the vote on the <U!lcndment, dispo5e of that, then put the original amendment, carried or lose it as the case might be.

Normally it is carried. In this instance we h~ve a sub-amendment which is a pecul inr animal to say t!1e least, we have it. The government have rf'pudiated it and have announced that they are treating :l.t as a vote of nonconfidence. That is the sub-amendment, Woul~ Your Honour ~dvise me and the ·House as to w}>at the procedure is to be in dealing ~~ith it, in debating it. ~vic'ently accordirtp: to the rulinp. Your Honour has ~1 ready made, ~~e are debating both tor,ether, th~t is to say t.he amendment and the sub-amendment. ~(l~'E HON. ~~ER~ : No.

HJ1. ~Ko\T.L',ll'll'll': !-~ell this is the il'lpression I gathered frol'l - ?881

"'lV 17, 1"7"' •1~. r.llr!STlJl' : MJ;'. ~'P~AKF.ll: Trrpf' No. 2734 ~ . roint of orc1rr, ~r. Sreaker. There is a point of order. \1M - 5 There is one print of order already thnt T havr. r.1i.s~d - Hold on 'John', just hold on a minute. 0-}'l\LUJnf)D: - to whic". J :otm speaking. And I do not W<"nt to occupy one moment more than is needed to make ll'Y point c~ear qr tn have my mind clarified by Your T'onour. Very •ra11' · ly T <coul,d lH.e to move a sub-at:~endment. 'low if thiR particular sub· -amendment hns t}le effect of preventing ny movinr, one, sobeit.

I can stil 1 tall~ in the debate on the Address·-in-Re)'lly, and say rrl.rnost thc•re rrnything thnt I ~'oulcl say here or any other hon, Member. 1'l1ere is no limitation on ••hat one TM.Y discuss in the .~el>ate on t'1e Address-in-Reply, But however the proper nlace to cl:!scuss the finances of the Province is here in the debate of Committee of Pays and Means. Would Your Honour clarifv that for !'le?

Hhat I need to know is will Your T'onour be nutting this - does there come a point before the amendment is put, does t.,ere cowe a )'loint and I mean substartially before, days perhaps possihly , before the =endment is put the vote is taken on the suh-am<>.ndment, leaving room for sor.teone else to move a Sl.lh-amenrnnentr And,of course another hon. ~entleman could get up and mov~ one as was <lone in this instance in which case I would not have t'1e c:>pnortunitv. That Hill not stop me because I still will say what I have to say in the other debate. "11<. ROllF.P.'rS: 'fR.. Sl'EAJ~Fr. : 11r. Speaker, Yes.

Perhars so t1.lat I will not forget the <J11estions,I recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition hut .1ust to cl,rify the situation so that I will not forget the points .-1.sked hy the hon. p,entleman from Twillingate, as I understand il; on a debate of this kind, there is only one amendment and one sub-amendment . With reference to the procedure, the sub-amendment is now before 7882

Tape t:o. 2734 ''1!. f.PEAKF.R: the Chl\ir. ~!ht>n no one {:ets up to speak then t.,e question 11ill he put, the debate 1dll be hack on the all'enrlmt>nt and - 'IR . RORF:llTS: As amendment or as not. ~R . l'PF:A'<Y.R: As amended or as not amended derending on how the sub-amendment is dis~osed of . If the sub-amPndment is carrie~ then the question will be the amendment 1\S rumended. T" ""A A""- ,--cndment ts defe ated , the amendment itself will l1e had e l•efQre the House and as soon as no one fu r ther ~ets un to speak on .that \Je ~ill be hack to the original question.

They will 8C in that order and the detenninin3 factor will be tha t when an hon. member sits dovn nobody else gets up. ,7883

"ay 17, 197 6 ''T' . !'r RAKf.l>_: ~'R . nOBERTS: Tape 2735 IB-1 The han. Leader of the Opposition. l"r. Spe1>ker, I thank you because you have anticipated the point which I nade,si1'1ply the hen. gentleman for Twill:f.ngate (l•r. SmaJ h;rood) has app1>ren tly overlooked Standing Order 34 wtdch savs quite stndr,htforw11rdJy as Your Honour mentioned, "Only one amendment an~ one sub-amendment ~ay be made to a motion for Mr. Speaker to leave the rhair for the House to go into Committee of Supply on l·iays and l'eans," which is the order that the governl'\ent ~ave called today.

So it does not matter in that sense whether the amendment is one of no confidence or of confidence or of anything else. It is a suh-amend!l1ent that Your Honour has accepted. as being in order. There has been an amendment moved. There has been a sub-amendment moved and that is the end of the procedure on the, well tt is the budr,et debate. 1\s Your Ponour has sald the other procedures follm•, that as J understand it, Your Honour, a member may speak three times if he so vishes.

Once to the sub-amendment, once to the amendment and once to the motion. nne could speak ln that order. if one ~~ished, the suh-awen<lment and then subsequently when that is disposed of to thP amendment and then when that is dlsposed of subsequently to the motion in e11ch c11se as Rmended or as not amended accordinr, to the House's wish. ~ut, Your llonour, I am not sure if it is in order to raise a further point ~1hich I thought the gentleman for TwHllngate O~r. Smalhrooci) had <1dverteci to. But I did not understand that to be the ~~in point of his point of order.

That is the question of l"hetlter or not this sub-amendment moved by the gentleman for St.John's North (t<r. J. r.arter) which as the gentleman for T~1:lllingate (Mr. Smallwood) SAYS is a somewhat curious animal,- not the han. Member, the sub-amendment - is a sol!'ewhat curious one. It absolves the ~overnJ'lent of all blame and yet the gentleman for St. John's West (llr. C'rosh:!

e) speak~nP, as a minister in behalf of the government s11ys that the government deem it a matter of no confidence. 788ft

Yay 17, 1976 Tape 2735 IB-2 ~'T'. l'OllEJ''l'!':: l.Jell I am not sure, Your Honour, if that is a po.int that need be ruled on or not. It has a certain practical importance in that if the r;entleman from St. John's West (1~r. Crosbie) is co·rrect, if it is in fact a matter of no confidence then the gentleman for f.t. John's l~est (vr. Crosbie) has unlimited time as the minister speald.ng in reply to a motion of no confidence. If however it is not a matter of confidence in the government then the bon. member has the time limit ~1hich pertains to him as a member of the Fouse, nal'!ely forty-fi.ve trinutes. l-'!R.

SMALLWOOD: Hhen the Rouse Leader announceif. it on Friday the eovernment were opposed to it, not only the minister today. 1•r. POBF.!!rS : I am aware of the fact the minister is speaking for the government and that his vie~q is the governrtent 1 s view. }!R. S~~ALLWOOD: All ministers do. ¥P. ROBERT~: 1'r. Speaker, the point is this - I said the government. The government i~ all ministers. }'1'. s~:ALLTmOD: All ministers do that. ~m. ~O~ERTS: J learned some of my constitutional law under a bit of an expert, f::l:r, and I think I have a little knowledge of these points.

But. the concern here- and I do not raise it, Your Honour, at this time although I will if you wish but I all' not ra:l.sing it in an adversary s:ltuatlon, But does a sub-amendment to the budget become a no confidence matter simply because some minister speaking for the government says that we choose to view this as a matter of no confidence.

In other words if the Rouse accept this a~ndment ancl thus turn us down we will go straight away or the Premier will go straight away to Government House and submit our resignation as a m:lni.stry and all that will follow, the coalition will then come and evE'ryth:lng will be happy again. But, 1'r. Speaker, the point I th:l.nk is a valid one. The mot:lon before the Chair which is the sub-amendment to the budget mot~on on its surface is not a matter of no confidence because it 7885

''ayl7, 1076 Tape 2735 '"' POUF.r>TS: !>pecifically ~ays that H absolves the government from all blame. llell if that is not a matter of no confidence then I 11m not sure In-3 ho•• one would put it. ~ut on the other hand it could be a contrary :n·ru~rent that an aff:l rmative motion may a till be a matter of confidence. nut all I want to ask, Your Honour, is a ruling, is this a matter of no confirlence or not. I ask it not -I really do not care whether it is or is not in the sense I do not th:!nk it matter :Importantly. 13ut I think it is releva .nt to the question of "hether tlre r:entlei!'an for f.t.

John's West (}lr. Crosbie) has unlill'ited time as J believe l•e bel:!eves he hafl or whether he is limited to forty-five Jll:!nuteR her.inning his speech on l"ri.day morning and continuing it now. 11u t on the other point, Sir, the sub-amendment, St11nd:!ng Order :14 <1isposes of it quHe neatly wi.thout regard to Hhether it is confidence or no confidence. The Standing Order speaks only of one amen<lment a.nd one suh-aMenclrnent. He have both now duly moved and cltuy accepted hy the Chair and will be debated and disposed of. W'. ~P?.Al<F~: J recognize the hon. member for St. John's North ('~r. J.

Carter) anrl the hon. member for LaPc:! le O'r. Neary) after. If I ma" hefor.e the hon. mel'tber for St. John's North (1-'r. J, Carter) hef!:!ns Just to l'ga:!.n endeavour to underline precisely the point that J.,ac. to hP ~eciclecl and ~Jhich I am seeking submissions from hon. members on. That :Is jn order to continue beyond forty-five minutes the lton. ,.,;n)ster either has to he speak:!.ng: to a motion of non-confidence, speakin~ in reply to a motion of non-confidence or he does it by the consent of the House.

Now the question is whether in speaking to this sub-at'!ennment ~-,hether this sub-a111endment is itself a motion of non-confidence. If it is then obviously he has unlimited time. If it is not then J think a certain comp] exity comes in if the ar : uT"ent "ere to he put fo:nJard that he is the minister speaking in reply to a nnn~confidence motion which in fact is the amendment and not the Sl!h-al'tendment. 7886

Yay 17, 1976 ~ape 2735 ID-4 tr . !lMALL1i'ClOD: On Friday the hon. House Leader spoke, very briefly but he spoke. He took

part in the debate by saying the government rejected the sub-amendment. t~ .. NF.ARY: That is right. That is the point I was go.ing to make Your Honour. ~<l'.. NnLAN: }'r. Speaker, if I could rise. ~<R. SPEAKF.P: J. indicated the member for St. John's North. tfJ'. J. CArTER: Yr. Speaker, I will try and be brief but this was not intended as a motion of non-confidence. As }'r. Speaker realizes in order to amend any amendment that amend~nt itself must not deny the amendment. This was as near as I could come to whitewashing the amendment that had been made.

Now I realize that there is a certain amount of complexity in the government voting for this because once they vote for the sub-amendment presumably this implies aome approval of the amendment. But I would maintain, Hr. Speaker, that this is not so. As I mentioned. earlier when the minister first got up to speak I vi.ew the proper procedure on this to be to vote for the sub­ amendment and then to vote ag~inst the amendment even though it may b~ amended by the sub-amendment beca~qe there are certain obnoxious ele!Tlents in the amendment that the sub-amendment are unable to remove. }fR.

SPEAI<EJ>: The hon. member for La'P.oile. ~'R. NEAll.Y:. r<r. Speaker, I would like to make the same point that the hon. member for ~~illingate made, ~ir, that the hon. minister, the p;overn"'ent House Leader, the t<inister without Portfolio speaking in behalf of the government the other day - I think it was on Friday when the sub-mnendment was moved rose in his place to indicate to members on the government side of the House speaking for the government that the government was going to vote against this sub-amendment, going to vote against it. foil!. CROSBIE: Could you blame him? HR. NEARY: · Yes, ~'r.

Speaker. 7887

Tape 2735 IB-5 !"' He could not accept it. ~IT'. NEAllY: against it. lle could not accept it and they were going to vote So a minister has already spoken for the govern~nt lmether it he only for a few moroents or a few hours. But the minister, Sir, Hho ~·as s·peakinr for the government was the government Rouse J.eAder and has already spoken. So you ca!lnot have tvto ministers speaHnr; for the government, Sir. And Your Honour might want to sene' for the tapes to Bnd out just what the govern~nt House I.eader said. ''T'. SPEAKJ'T': to continue.

I will recognize the hon. members if they certainly wish There is a ~uestion of fact to be determined now,and that :Is whether the hnn. "in:l .ster wlthout Portfolio spoke to the sub-amendment. If he dicl the rest is interesting but academic. I will recor,nize the two bon. mel'!hers who have inrlicatec:1 tl1eir desjre to speak. T think then what we should do is adjourn for five minutes to determine that question of fact. The hon. r.'jnister of ~'ines and Energy. Nil .• CPOSBIE: On the latter point first - t'Tl .• NC1LAN: Hould the minister give away for a moment. ~'f'.

CPOSBIE: /Ill rip:ht I '{,.Tj 11 give way. ~orr. NOLA..'!: Now then '"hat the minister said the other day as I remember - anc I was listening very attentively - was - and I hope the Tl'i.nister ~·ill correct l'le if I am wrong and I a111 sure he will - >Jas he did not say clefin:l .tiveJy and definitely that he or the government '!-•ere goinr to vote against the bon. member for St. John' a Nnrth (~'r. J. rarter). He said he had some doubts about it and they \·Tere r.oing t.o take i.t into eonsidentt:lon. Now that was my reading of it at that time and of course he can speAk for himself. 1-'R • DOODY: }IR.

NOLAN: Who can speak for himself? The ~inister of Mines and Energy. "r. Speaker, on these several points. First to deal ~lith the rovernreent Tlouse Leader. No government minister, 1-'r. Speaker, and you can check the Hansard 'mich you are go:lng to have to do has '1888

Tape 2735 Ilt-6 ~"'. C:l'OSBIP.: sooken tn this debate at all until I started to speak on Friday ~rninr,. The government nouse Leader did not speak in this ~ebate. The y.overnment Jlouse Leader saic.' to some members ove r here that we canno t accept this ~tion. Ue was not addressing the ROuse. Fe was not on his feet . Fe had not said; · ~lr . Speak.er" and started a debate. He was not speaking in the debate at all. I am the first one to sreak in the debate now, the first government minister to speak i n the debAte 7889 ,. ... ,..

~'ay 17, 1976 Tape 2736 ~Ill. CR0R1HE: There were ~everal rovernment backbenchers who have spoken. The rosition is, ~·r. Rpeaker, that the original motion is a motion of nonconfidence v'hich regrets the failure of the government to present an~ disclose fully the present financial situation of the Province. l"F. SPI!.AKF.r : It would appear now there is a question of fact to be c!eterrnjned and that we should adjourn for a few minutes in order for the tapes to be checked. ~w. CRrJRlliE : JV'l'. SPEAKE!': rould I finish my remarks, ~'r. Speaker, first.

Yes inileed. }'T' . crosniF.: But there is no point in my making them H Your Honour is not listening. !Jell it is just as simple as that. T am ad~re~sing them to Your Honour. I do not care what the other members think. Your Honour, to go back to where I started. Number one, the government House Leader has not spoken. That is a question IB-1 that Your Honour can check the tapes on. I was the first government minister to speak in this debate. .A~J that the government House Lender clid if he dic! anything was say to bon. members over here thAt we could not accept this motion that the member for St.

John's tlorth (r•r. J. Carter) had made. He did not address the Chair. He c!ld not commence a speech. He was not and has not been involved tn this debate. "But you can che.ck the tapes on that. raised. Now the second point, Mr. Speaker, that you orig:lnally The orjginal amendment is a nonconfidence amendment. It regrets our fai.lure to disclose fully and completely the financial position of the Province. That is what the motion says. He cannot <tccept that. That is " motion of nonconfidence. If that is true "e shouJ d get out, out, we should vanish, we should be gone.

The [';0v,..:rnment ha~ to resi!!n 1.f this is true. But W!' have not done that. 7890

}fay 17, 1976 Tape 2736 IB-2 SOME RON. MEf'lBERS : Rear, hear! 1-'T!. CROSBIE: Nm,r the sub-amendment says, "But reaJ.izing the difficult situation faci~g the Province and in view of the complexity of the s:l.tuation absolves the government from all blame." Hell hefore we can be ab~olved from all blame we must be at bl~e. So the sub-amendment says - yes and the hon. gentleman said when he spoke, "Forgive them, they knm• not what they do." sm'E EON , ~'EJ''BFPS: Rear, hear! tfl'. C:l'OSBIE: · So you cannot absolve us from blame if we are not first to blame. ~o the amenil.ment says. MR.

ROBERTS: 'John' as a whitewasher you are in trouble. W', C'P.OS!liE: The sub-amendment says, '~ell the government did not present completely and fully the present financial situat:lon but it is a difficult situation, it is complex. We should absolve them from all blame for l~rin!! to the public and for not disclosing what the true s:!.tuat:lon :Is.'' No~" that is a motion of lt.Ciilconfidence. nec;~.nse ~•e cannot be absolved from h] arne unless we are at blame. So therefore the go,•ernl!'ent cannot accept the sub-arendment. Now, rrr. ~peaker, as far as - lT.

CA'PTER: Houle the m1n:lster p:i.ve ~.ray for a moment? Jll'. crn~niF.: It is not a question of the gentleman for St. John's North (!!r. Carter'

s) intentions. vle have to interpret .. -mat his sub-amenclment says. Now, ~·r. Speaker- t'J'. DOODY: The hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) asked leave :1 f. you woul~ 17ive ·~ay. >m. CPO~BIP: I am just about finished. SO}!F liON. ''E''PF.PS: !Tear, hear! t'!". Cl'OSiliE: So, ~~r. Speaker, when we come to the time limit all I all! sayin!7 :l.s this, I consider that I am answering the motion of no confidence because the t~•o of these th:lngs torether are no conf:l dence • If we pass this and pass the amend'f!!ent .,~ are out. There is no confiilence. Only one government minister can reply once over the forty-five l!'inutes wh:lch is what I am engaged in now. So 7891

''~y 17, 1 ~ 7 fi Tape 2736 IB-3 Pl'. CP.OSRIE: I submit that I should be allowed to carry out once you check the tapes and so on . That :Is al l. Then no other ~overnment minister can speak more than forty-five minutes. this is the correct procedure. That is our submission, that -n:>. SPEAKEJ': I recognize the hon. member for St. John's North.

Tlut before he starts the question of fact has been determined, I am informed by the officers of the House that the tape and Hansard shows no record of the hon. ¥:1nister without Portfolio havin g addressed the !louse. l'e may h11ve said so!T'ething from his seat or that but he was not recor,n:lzed and did not speak to the motion. The ho'll. meMber for St. John's North. I'll. J. CAPTE1": ~·r. Speaker,the }'inister of Fines and Energy has ner,lected to trace the subject of the sub-amendment.

The subject is that this House regrets the fa:!lure of the govenunent to disclose completely and fully the present financial situation of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the government thereof. There has heen no break in the sentense in my sub-amendment. "But renlizinp, the difficult situation facing the Provinee and in view of the comple x ity of the situation absolves the government from all blame." Now the subject of that verb, }'r. Speaker, is th:ls !louse and it is the amendment macle by the Oppositjon. Therefore ' lr.

Speaker, I suhmit that this sub-amendment is a correction or a white~•ashing as I said earlier of the original amendment. /l:ny greater variation would not have been allowed by ~r. Speaker. It is the greatest variation that one could bring in in an allowable sub-aMendment. _Ml!. YOUNG: You votinp; this sub-amendment. ""1' . J. GAT.'TE1!.: I am arguing for it at the moment. The eEsential question before the House now - the qaes t1.on of fact has been disposed of - is whether - as least the que s tion as I see it - is whether this sub-amendment is a motion of nonconfidence.

That J think is 'V.Tiat I "'ill have to decide. The hon • Leader of the Opposition. 7892

" ay 17, 1971i Tape 2731i IB-4 >m r>.OBF.FTS: l'r. Speaker, :1 f I may again. The hon. gentle~an for St. John's Hest (Mr. Crosbie) and J do not often agree on very many thinps. I am not sure a] 1 of my colleagues feel the same 1vay I do and so111e of the"' may "~<•ell wish to express their feeling and the reasons for it. But I do feel the gentlet~~an for St. John's Hest {"r. Crosbie) has made what I think is an argument that must stand.

I <"n not think it is possible to amend - the bas:l.c rule is that an a!1'cndment cannot directly negative the motion :It proports to amend because that end can be achieved by simply voting against the motion. ~ow, the motjon before the Chair is an amendment to an al"lendment and the same rule appl:l .es there. negative or ner,at1ve •1hatever :1 s the verb - The amendDent cannot SOME HON • MEMBERS : Negate. ~'1'. 'ROBERTS : Negate; Well I thank han. gentlemen opposite.

Cannot negate the purport of the amendment and the purporting of :It is certainly one of no confidence. ft~y han. gentleman who votes for it: does so 1vith the r,lad tidings in his heart that he is vot:l.ng no confidence. Anybody who votes aP.;ainst it does so with the r1read knmvledf~e that he is voting to support the government. It :f.R certainly a matter of no confidence. Well, S:lr, if that is so, t~en by definition the amendment to the amendment, in other •mrds the sub-al'lend!!'.ent moved by the gentleman for St. John's "orth (Hr. J. rarter) cannot be anyth:l.ng other than a matter of no conficlence.

I think that disposes of the argument. No•r there :1 s another point altogether as to what makes a matter of no conf:ldence. I think that is another point. I do not think it :l.s germane here.Unless Your Honour requests I certainly would not press the po1nt,although I can think of other t:lmes when it might be germane,beeause as far as I am concerned a motion does not become :t m:!tter of no conf:lclence simply by mov:l.ng it. It depends entirely on th e effect of it :1 f carriecl.

If the amendment is in order and 1t has been, then 1 t cannot negate the motion it purports to amend •mich is the one moved by my fr1end for Burgee-Ray n'Espoir (~'r. Simmons). 7893

Tape 2736 IB-5 MR. LllNDP.JCAN: That is the first rule. I'P.. Jl()Jl!'!lTS: I ap,ree "'1th the gentleman for Grand Fal]s ("1"r. Lundri!'an) that is the very first rule on amendments. Therefore the matter must be one of no confidence. I believe therefore the r.entleman for St. John's IJest (Yr. r.rosbie) bas unlimited time within the StancUnr f'ro:lers of this House, you know, I")ED. '~. SP~AKEr : T. thank hon. members for their various submissions nnd certainly :In my mind at least the matter has become somewhat clarif:!erl. ~nth respect to the remarks of the hon. Leader of the Opposition, the hon. member for St.

John's North (l'lr. J. Carter) and others I t~ouJ d quote as well Beauchesne 202, subsection 3 which is much the same argument as put forward by the last few speakers. " S:Ince the purpose of a sub-amendment is to alter the amenilment, it should n~t enlarp,e upon the scope of the amendment but it should rle11l t.>ith matters that are not covered by the amendment; if it is intended to br:lng up matters foreign to the aJnendro.ent, the member should wait untU the amendment :Is disposed of and move a new amendment." Obviously :!.n this case that could not be done but that is "mat the procerlure is supposed to be.

Bearing in mind that in order to be in order the sub­ nmendl"ent cannot amonp. other thinp;s negate but must be relateil to anrl :In some "•ay a modif:! .ca.tion or something of, hut it must be related to it and should not enlarge upon the scope but deal "'ith matters that are not covered in the amendment. So it t>ould certainly appear to me that the logical anst~-er is that the sub-amendment is a motion of nonconfidence. The bon. m:!.n:lster has unlimited time because he is speak:fng to a motion of nonconfidence spec:! .fically this sub­ amendment. 789~

'f;~.y 17, 197fi Tape 'lo. ?.737 NM- 1 "!11 . Sl'F.AKER: The hon. Minister of "lines and Enerp,y. HR. CROSBIE : Mr. Speaker, t llk'l.Y have unlimited time hut I clo not intenrl to take it because I do not ~1ant to. l"R. ROBERT~: Hear! Hear! J~. CROSBIE~ Thank you. I rlo not want to Sf'Cak for the [1!11'" of s~eaktnr. hut I do want to make just some points on th1s issue. 'lu~her one there has not been any failure to disclo•e CO"lflletely and fully the present financial situation. But in this 'frovince, Mr.

Speaker, we are in a bind and we have to recognize it whether we are on the ~vernment side or the Opposition side. llecnuse if the npposition gets on this side we will be in the same '-> :1. nd anyr-1ay. 'l'h at is - ~e sur~ to tell. '•r. r.nnsBil': Just to surnnarize what I have been saying, that we hrt''" not got tl1c, l~here~~:!.tha] ourselves to comh;~.t unemployme .nt in this Province. TrTe s~onlrl not h0 horrowlng as muc11 as we. nre horr.o~d.nr,. "'" shm1l rl nnt h., horrm·Tinp; ~?."0 million this year plus another amount for municipalities. plus amounts for hydro.

It would be .,nr.h :nor<:> sensib1e anrl careful for us not to be borrowing that much money. lle certainly cannot borro1~ any more than we plan to horro•.~ anrl thP r<"ason we are borrowing this much is to keep cl'lployment going anrl to keep activity going in this Province. !'0 c~nnot overcome th~se flT.oble~s ourselves and I am just listing, "r. STJNtker, tl1e attitude that the Go\•ernment of Canada is t:<'<:entlv tal<in" to'''arrls thifl issue. Anr1 they have made their position clear .,t "'<'et1.ng after ~eeting, no special assistance ror areas lil:r• l ·le1~founrllnnrl that have extraordinary unemployment.

Th11t h;~.s heeP t'f,,..ir no~ition. In ·adcli.tion, ''r. Sneal~P.r., I ~~as just listinr, some of the oth C' r things thC')' have done 1-1hich are going to make our financial po ~; ltion mon• and more difficult as time p,oes hy and that if the Federal Government and I would like the hon. ~entleman in the Opposition to 7895

'lay 17, 1CJ71'; Tape "'o. 2737 ~~- 2 'IT-! CROSBJ.l': listen because they may he able to influrmce thr. "federal Libera] Partv, that if they continue lvith wl-at t!1e.y hnvC' flaid they are p;oing to do they will crush us financially. And if the han. gentlemen opposite get into power they are going to be in a position where they uill be able to no nothing and therefore they should communicate uith their federal counterparts. I listed, ~ir.

Speaker, just for starters their a ttitude on cost sharing programmes, ~1edicare, health insurance. where they are nmv going to -put ceiling, spending limlts after havinp, induced all the Provinces to come into the prograr.unes five or six years ago .. They are now outtinr, on spendinr, limits, which means that all the risk of further exncnditnre, of inflation, of war;e an<'! salary ncp;otiations stay with the Provinces and the Provinces are leal'lt able to he:-r it. They are putting on their limits and the Hinister of Health is faced - 'IR.

S'IALL!-!OOD: Hould the minister allow me a moment? -would he not ap,ree that no matter how you spell it, it boils down to this, that the r,overnment of Canada have decided that the peo!)le of Cannrln have got to cut down their standard of living, their stamlard of public services and their standards of private living. All Canada has been living too high on the hog whether we 1 ike it or not and we do not like it, we know we do not like it. ~Johocly likes it but we have got to cut dmvn all across Canada, everyhody but everybody in Canada. ~IR. CROSlliF.: Nr.

Speaker, you know I would like to develop my own thesis. I agree that the Federal Government is trying to cut hack but they arP. not explaining to the people of Canada that they have made a · decision that the people of Canada arc goin g to have to get less. They are not say~ng that. They are trying to pass the blame onto the Provinces and the way 7896

H,1.y 17, 197f- Tape No. 2737 NM- 3 "ll • CROSBIE: they are doing it is by the attitude they are takinp: with the>.se prop.rammes. Nov.• ~ ! ed1carc was instituted and initiated by the C:overnment of Canada and how could a province refuse tci go into '1edicnre if six or seven provinces v.•ere going to do it how could another province like Newfoundland refuse to do it. 'fll. S'~ALLWOOD: H". CROS!HF. : '·W. • S'fALUJC101) : I{R. C:tOSRIE: The pressure was irresistible. That is right. You could not resist. You had to go in. So 1le had to go in. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when we went in for example with Medicare I think the first year about n:lnety per cent of the>. cost of Medicare came f.rom the Government of Canada under the formula because it was based on the average f'Cr capita cost across Can~_da and ours were lower l::ecause we had fewer doctors. Rut that has changed and changed and changed and this year I think 1~e are r,oing to have to J'Ut up sixty pe.r cent of the money. Hould that he accurate? "R. s~~AJ.Lwnno: 'fr.. CRrlS!liF.: "~- HT"LLS: 1~. r.RflSlliF.: S:l_xty? Sixty, sixty-five per cent. It is 1n that orcler. Tn that order.

The Federal Government's share hns ckclined from ninc>ty T'er cent down to between sixty and sixty­ f-Ive rer cent th:l s yP:t'l: rmd as ~<ewfoundland gets more doctors, the mec:".ica] sc1H1ol turns out more doctors, in the next two or three years we are going to have to meet at least half the cost if not mor~. :~. SI~ALLW'OD: Fhat is the relationship of the doctors and the ; ~. CRO!':BU\: Because our per capita costs in Newfoundland are rising rapidlv to the national average and therefore we will 'mly get fifty per cent, you know, the same as the others. '"l :,•TALLWOOD: Bcc:tuse we are maldnr; it rise. ' (R.

CROSBIE: Right. Recause we are getting more doctors and so on. 7897

'lay 17, l'l7f Tape No. 2737 !·!R. C.ROS'1TF: !low, Mr. Speaker, they are going to put a spending li"'it on "eclicare so that if our cost goes up next year in excess of eight or ten per cent, whatever the figure is, they t~ill only share the increase un to the eight or ten and we are l~ft Hith tl'te rest. Similarly with health insurance as 1 men.tioned. '<ow \dth education, post-secondary education, they are •,;.~ntinr.; to r<"strict what thev arc going to spend on that, Tax ef]tiali~ntion, the present tax equal i:>:ation formula they find has given the provinces too much money.

They t~ant to change the formul:J, That is our main source of revenue, over ~201) million th ls y<'ar, ~:>1n million or $2:!rJ million. Th£>y want to change the formula on th:~t. They wnnt to eliminate thc> revenue r;uarantee. We tdl 1 J ORf' $7 million or ~A million by that. Tt->o years ago, l•r. Speaker, to illustrate this, the Federal r.overnment indexed the oersonal income tax. In other words they are increasing the exemptions as the cost of living r,oes up. 1'hey collect the income tax for us and all the provinces except nuehec.

Only Quebec I think collects its mm, l-Jithout consulting us the Federal Government changed the income tax so they started indexing and that meant, Hr. Speaker, an automatic loss of revenue because now the exemptions go· up as the cost of living p:oes up. It was not changed in Ouehec. They collc>ct thf'ir own income tax. That means, Nr.

Speaker, as a result of indexing I think our estimate is this year or next year <~e will lose $15 mj]Jjon to $20 million hecause they indexed the income tax throu~h equalization and through loses of our own and our own personal income tax here, the share that we get, Unilaterally this is one of the reasons why Canada is in some financial difficulty, they indexed it and they lost the automaU.c increase tl'tey p;ot on tax revenue!' every year ·because they indexed it. llut without asking us or the other eight provinces they indexed us too and we could take it or leave it. Now this small 7898

· ·:w 17. 1971\ TaJ"e 'to . 2737 ' It> C~OSBIP: J"tovtnce cannot im,ose and collect its own ocrsonal tncomc tax . It t~ould administratively be too c.>:<r<'ns iv<> fC'Ir us. He :.n:e not l tl:e ')uebec . We ::tr~> not hir Pnour,h. C:o ns a result of thnt unilaterAl decision of t'lcirs we arc- losin~ $3 million or $1'1 million of direct revenue this year and next yea r plus eaualization r cvenuP . Sn there are all these federal cuts . What happened the other day at the lottery? Is r:;mad n, '4r. Spealcer , r,o1.ng t o be:> coMe a unitary state? NX ·- 5 T.onk o t c:u' ~rr<>r.ance td,th ::'1c lotte-ry .

They held discusllions with nll the:> flrovince s on an inte r -!'rov.incilll lot tery t hat ,.·nult\ ra1 sc- non<'Y tn the various nrovinces for t heir mrn nurl'oscs :md that discussion "liS held . Unila terally the other day the Prde ral r.overnment decided that they are Jtoi n? to ins t 1.tut e tl•i1: nl'w l ot t er y nr~ that for three yenrs after ~he ')uchec lottery finishes the proceeds will go for the -11 }'IIIT"tcs.

Ancl nftcr th>tt: they v:!ll carry it on fo r t'1e1.r o•'" little r<!creet1.onlll r • ojects nationally . 'low that lottP!'V ···ill cn!l'f'l'tl' here t•itl) nnv l ot t er v "'" !Jave nr :my othe r provtnce . "nt ,;i t"nut '"' nuch liS :~ '>y ;mu't" 1 c~wP and after di.scus stnY. t'1e wattc.r ~rtl ""' c>n aror! t ""Y have now said they -lo not car,. ·~"nt thr fl T' OVi"'c,.~ ,o;nv I"T "'"at t~e T>rov1.nr:c ' <> rosition ~!: thev 1' ~,. r.oinr, :1 11Pn~ · ~t.t~ their om• Jottery :\n)"·lay . So in eve1:y •'1 rl"rr' .on .

M.,.. c:,.,calr~r , t he f'nilcr::~l ~"ovcrnment is ignoring t''e cons t i tuent r>arts of this Cot\fe•leration and t :u~y are ;>~'"tnt. t!tc-i- <•wn wny :1n<l ::•1cy are hc-:u!ln " for a unitary sta :e . UP :.'ill not h,,.e :t via1>le fpdc.raJ cysten 1if t!Jis kecfl S Ul) 1n1 t'1"~n r r ,.e yl'!:ors. T i ll' 11eal· sisters ~1iJ 1 •11.~<an pP:tr and we are amonr t!:c 11Clll1· sis I:C'r~ . UnlPl'ln th:l s is reverse~'! , unless 11on. r entl emen opposite c-:: , l'<':rSU:l<lt• t:lC'ir fed era J colle::tgucs to rovcrse this trend, 'r,..vcrsc- what<-vcr 'lr.

Trudeau is uo to,that is the kind of coun~y ·~c> ar<' r.ninr. tovnrds . 789!1 ~

Tap£>. 'Jo. 2737 NM - 6 ''R. l"LTr.!!T: ~lonJr1 the hon. ni.ntster perm:l.t n qur>sttnn? In reverse of what the hon. gentleman is sayinr: li~Cd to re lil~e the P.iole, like Holy ~Jrit for the T"jJ•eral T'nrty of Canada, the federal Liberal Party. That was thct r p,rNl.t Pssent tal policy. '·!T' .• . c.r.r1~r.u: '!1u1.t is right • MR. PECKFORD: lfuat? ~m. S"ALL'-'nO]'): 'f':qual:!.zat1on. I'R. PECKJ'OT'D: Yes,exactly. }'R.

SMALU:fl0D: To lift up the backward provinces and if they are going ,,.gainst that I say shrnne on them. 't-Jhat is Confederation if H is not that1 The very hem:t of Confederation is the whole Pri.nciole of equalization. ~m. r.nosnr·: ------ R:lght. l'as there a question, Sir? 'fP.. SPl' ARE". (1'R. YOID'G) : The hen. !'!ember for Hindsor - Buchans. ''!!.. PLIGHT: It is a question in this sense, ~fr.

Speaker, that is it a f01ct that Canada's approach to Newfoundland or to any ]'ITovince ri~ht no•·7 that cuts in spending, '~hat have you, comes as a result of tl1cir anti-inflationary pro!trnnme and price and "age controls, the route they decided to go? MTl.. CROSlHE : No, Mr. Speaker., the matters that I am talking ahout have no relationship at all to the wage and price controls. !IR. Ji'LIGTIT: The anti-inflationary 'ffi. CROSBJ.F: ~lo, nothinp, to do with - ~m. nomw: Hhat you are talking about is a guaranteed income. !'R. r.~mmu:: Fell, ·~r. ~peaker, that is exactly the point I am r,oin~ to brinr. up next.

Now while they arP making all these r~str:f.ctions ancl they want to impose limits on what is in place no'' Mare T":J]onde and a bunch of fanatica in the Department of National HP.elth and Welfare are trying to impose on us the nmv guaranteed income system. 7~00

May 17, 1976 Tape no. 2738 Page 1 - mw Mr. Crosbie. So on the one hand they are putting on these restrictions on medicare, post-secondary education, health insurance. The Department of Health and Welfare is still attempting to get all the provinces to agree to a new scheme of guaranteed annual income which is fine. MR. SMALLWOOD: Prevent us from doing it and then force us to do it. ~IlL CROSBIE: Well if we say no - MR. DOODY: Guaranteed bankruptcy. MR . SMALLWOOD: Guaranteed bankruptcy? MR.

CROSBIE: - if we say no we cannot do it, that Newfoundland just cannot afford our share, we cannot do it, and they go ahead and do the five or six other provinces how will we be able to resist doing it. But most of the provinces are opposing this at this time on financial grounds. This is a great concept if we can afford it. MR. NOLAN: What position are the other provinces taking on the Olympic lottery? MR. CROSBIE: Most of them have protested, certainly the Western provinces. I am not sure about the other Maritime provinces. So, Mr.

Speaker, while they are trying to put on these controls on us in the directions I have mentioned in an inconsistent manner they still want to put forward another new social programme that will involve them and the provinces in big additional expenditures in future years. Now how can we risk going in on a guaranteed annual income programme not kn~ing but in three or four years time they will put a limit on that and say that we are only going to pay from now on. We will only meet increases of five or eight per cent a year and you will have to carry the rest of the burden.

And another point I just want to make in this last point, Mr. Speaker, the position on oil and gas, which I have ment.coned in this House before. It seems to illustrate to me the utter inconsistency of the policy of the preseat government of Canada 1 because they are adamantly refusing to allow or concede that we have jurisdiction over the oil and gas off Labrador and Newfoundland. They have said that we do not have jurisdiction. They adamantly refuse to 7901

May 17, 1976 Tape no.2738 Page 2 - mw Mr. Crosbie. settle with us on any basis that we will have any control at all in any respect. They say that they would allow us to have an advisory role. We can advise them on what we think should be done. We can advise them should a permit - MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, could you call order? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): Order, please! I ask that some hon. members on my left please lower their voices. MR. CROSBIE: They refuse to give us anything other than we can advise them whether a permit should be used or we can advise them on what we think of this, that or the other.

They will not agree that at any point the Province would have a final say or a veto, They say, No, it is our jurisdiction. We are going to administer it. We will let you advise us and that is it: 1 That is their adamant position. MR. SMALLWOOD: On what? MR. CROSBIE: On the oil and gas offshore. And our answer is that there is no way we can accept that. How can the Province accept that. While the oil and gas will be of some benefit to us and so on if we have no control at all, it is going to be relatively restricted.

What is going to happen if we want the companies to establish onshore here and to have their services and their facilities onshore in Newfoundland but the federal government has the jurisdiction and they want to go to Halifax or Quebecl Is the federal government going to stop them? No, of course, they will not stop them. But if Newfoundland has control or has some final say we would be able to stpp them. We would say, "No, you cannot use our resource unless you do eertain things that we want you to do~' the same as they have said in Norway. MR. STRACHAN: Would the hon. minister permit a question?

On the basis then some oil companies must be operating right now on federal permits only, and without provincial permits • Is this not therefore the Province accepting the fact that we have no jurisdiction over them? 7902

May 17, 1976 Tape no. 2738 Page 3 - 1I1W MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, as far as I know there is no one operating on the federal permit only. The ones who are out there exploring have also asked and gotten one year interim permits from us. MR. SMALLWOOD: No. If the hon. gentleman will allow me. I believe he is not entirely right. I believe there are three kinds of concessionaires, those with a concession from Ottawa and no one else, those with a concession from Newfoundland and no one else and those with a concession from both.

I think the hon. gentleman will find that there are still some with a concession from Newfoundland alone. MR CROSBIE: That is correct, Mr. Speaker. But what I am saying is that anyone with a federal permit who has actually spent money out there in explorations has also gotten a provincial permit to cover their tracks just in case. Now the inconsistency here, Mr. Speaker, is that if the oil and gas is there and properly developed and properly regulated by the Province it could revolutionize the Province. It could put us on our feet. We could be self-sustaining.

That would save the federal government tax equalization and the like, So they would save a considerable amount themselves if that were the case. But they do not want to accept that, and the reason they do not want to accept it is not a financial one, it is a question of control. They want to control what is happening in Canada. They hate it that Alberta owns the oil and gas in Alberta. The· Albertans get them in a furry up in Ottawa, the bureaucrats and the ministers that these Albertans own the resource, and that, therefore, they have certain rights.

It makes them furious, and they do not want Newfoundland or Nova Scotia or whatever to own the resource. I mean if we own the oil and gas out there they still have control over international trade and commerce. They have control over inter-provincial trade. They have control over the environment. 1903

May 17,1976 Tape no. 2738 Page 4- mw Mr. Crosbie. They have control over external affairs. They still have a large measure of control, but they do not want us owning the resource because we may be troublesome to them if we own it. Because we might say to Eastcan you are not going to take any gas or oil off Labrador unless you employ all Newfoundlanders and LaBradorians or unless you establish certain facilities onshore and so on and so forth. We will act naturally to what is in the best interest of the Province directly. They do not want us in the position to do that.

They do not want us in the position to be independent because it is a lot eayier for them naturally if we are down here subservient and have no rights in this area, but it is inconsistent. It is an inconsistency. It is not a question of the finances of the matter. It is a question of power and control, and the people in control today at Ottawa want the power and control centralized in Ottawa. That is where they want it, not out in the Provinces. That is why they are giving them such rough treatment and what happens to your natural resources and so on.

They use the federal taxing power to take away any advantages you might have. So, I suppose, the point I am making Mr. Speaker is that we have to look to the Government of Canada to assist this Province when you come to talk about really combating unemployment or developing the Province. And we do not have any indication that we are going to get that help today, that all the indications are opposite to that in all these big policy areas, And if that the ppsition they are taking in those big policy areas becomes a fact this Province is going to be in a pretty dire state.

We are doing everything we can add borrowing more money than we should because we cannot stand to see the unemployment rate ten or twelve per cent or fifteen or sixteeen and so we are, therefore, taking more risks than we should on the financial side. And when we are criticized for that well what .re we going to do? 790't

May 17' 1976 Tape no. 2738 Page 5- mw Mr. Crosbie. Are we just going to do aothing here in Newfoundland, have no capital account in the Newfoundland Government this year, pave no roads, reconstruct no roads, make no rural development loans, not assist Labrador Linerboard and close it down? Are these the thinss that anyone suggests or do we have to keep those going and try to keep some construction activity going which we are attempting to do with the amount that we are going to borrow this year. So that is the dilemma that we are in.

And it would suit the Province a lot - I think it would be to all our advantage if the Opposition kept that in mind. I know the Opposition want to be the government. They feel they are better able to be the government, and the government should be out, You know that will come in time. The~r chance will come in two or three years. But if we are to do anything about this - MR. SMALLWOOD: The minister has now cut it down from four to five to two or three, Jf'. CROSBIE: I do not know. Last year the election was 1975. There will be an election by 1980. It might be next year. Who knows? It might be next week. MR.

ROBERTS: There may be one this year. MR. CROSBIE: There might be a coalition. Anything is possible. Elephants can jump over the moon. That is as likely as there is to be a coalition. You know the cow flew over the moon and all that bul\iness . MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS : Mit. CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman has not been asked for lunch? I have not been asked for lunch in recent years, no. If the hon. gantleman is asked for supper, beware. So, Mr. Speaker, the point is that we have to do what we can. We have to look to the Government of Canada for help. We are not likely to get much.

That is the point I am making, not very much, and we got a crew of people working on employment projects and suggested 7905

Mayl7' 1976 Tape no. 2738 Page 6 - 119 Mr. Crosbie. employment projects and what industry can be developed here and the onshore processing of fish. All the work is being done in these things. But they are not going to get very far w:(thout the assistance and the help of the federal government, and the same is true of the fishery. And in electricity we all know the p.roblems we are having now and if the federal gove~ent really wanted to help in that area it could do it, just !n the transmission line area alone, Which I will leave for another time. So, Mr.

Speaker, I want to get on and dea.l with the · Atlantic fish agreement that the mamber for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) brought up before I conclude. Mr. Speaker, this Province as I have said here before, and I will say it again, has only several chances to bf!\ self-sustaining. One is oil and gas off the !lhores and particularly if we control it, and that is an issu.e that I guess the courts are going to have to decide. That is on.e area of hope • 7906

~'ny 17, l'l7fi Tape 2739 IB-1 I'T'. Clln!mU:: 'fhe Province cannot ha.ve a future, any ldiul of a v:l.able future ~dthout hvdro power f·roll' 1.abrac1or no matter how d:l.fficult it is to !J;et it, no T"atter ho~' wuch the jatmts and tatmts may be and the cr:lticisJTJ may he Pldle •·•e are encountering difficulties gettinr :f_t. If we cannot ret hydro ener!!Y here fro!" I.abrR.Cior then we are dependent on o:!l f1red steam on the Tsland of 1'1ewfoundland or nuclear. 1-Je are not ;my !"ore cnmpet:ltive than anynne on the Mainland. r,re are subject tn escalating costs, etc and so on.

We have to get hydro here rroM Lahrnclor no l"atter •..:~hether :It :Is delayecl a year, two years, three. It has pot to he the ohj ective no ll'atter hm~ J ong it takes as •~ell as for rbe rest nf Lahrador tno. nur future rests to a 1 nrge Pxtent on thpt. The fi>Ohinc ~ndustry, yes. Tf ~·e can co-operate ~rith nttm·a proper1y ap(l il"'stitute !"ore processing an shore and a · sensihJe re?ulation of the ~00 ll'ile limit, that :Is of the utmost 1!"1portance. 1'1->e !":l.n:lnr. :ln.nustry :1 s cominr a] ong in any event.

T,e pulp ann paper, Pe pre cloinp ~.·hilt "'" can nc:H<'. vle h:1ve clone ,..,,t ~·e c:m :l.n the 1 ast three years to p:lve the saWI"ill industry eve Tv ch;once in the f'rov:lnce and we are st:llJ no:lnp: :It. We hRve r-:ot Lal>ranor T inerhoard •·•l1ich ~1e l'!re trying to keep going out in StephenviJle arajnst great odds wh:lch we ge.t cr.i.ticizecl for and attHcke<l for for ''"Ire reason.

It is a pro1ect tlJat, froll' the start it lt,1rl to 1,e Fncer', w11s not ~'e<~."lJ.l•J e in any nori!la] ."lense which the Prov:!nce h<lcl to tak<" over hecause of the shape it 1ms in in 1972, yon l'.nm,!,•o•hich •rap b~H<erl on the imposfl:lb:l.]ity that you could get (,()'1, non corrlr; of •·rnoc1 1:1 year from Lahrac1or when physically yon cnn oT'lv r,et 1'0,()1)1), F:!thout a.ny proper exaJTJination of the cost of '"ood, :mel which l1as coMe throup-h a lot o-F difficulties and :It is havinp; R rlifficnlt tir>e no~J hecause o~' the industry that it is in.

The .T inerho?.rr m:lll roes not have itself any clcnmstremn convcrt1~r: pl.:mts. It :Is an inrlependent producer of li_nerhoart". Yost of tl•e J inerhoani 1'!1:111 s in the world are mmecl by conglomerates that 7907

"ny 17, 107~ 'f~>pe 2739 IB-2 1'1'. C~()~DTR : have their own box plant!' dmmstreare. So they have always got an assured m11rl<et for most of their linerboard. Therefore when the Mrket goes up and dmm they can kee~ operating, !:hey still sell l:lnerboard themselves to convert in their own plants. T.nbr11ilor Linerhoard is an independent, Al] its production must be sold to independent customers who will only buy from it when it is to their arlvantage to buy from it. It has the highest ~'oods costs of any mill in the world. It has other economic f~cts against it.

Therefore it can only sell its 1 inerboard at a certain cost. It cannot sell at as lol~ a price as the other mills. If a mill down in the 1nited States is getting wood at thirtv dolJnrs a cord and Labrador Li.nerboard's '~ood is averaging in excess of seventy or eighty dollars a cord then Labrador Linerboard has to selJ its product for more, it has got to get more cash back for the procluct. It if' j nst as simple as that. Now, ~·r.

Speaker, the unfortunate th:!.ng l•'aS that in 1974 bP.cause of the world economy they were going berserk to ret linerboard from Labrador Linerboarrl which was then coming on and was having the usual rlHficulties producing it. It could have sold every possible ton it coulrl prorlnce rluring 1974. If the market had not turned down in 1975 it could have produced 1 I would say they would have produced, 250,000 tons easiJy. If the market had kept up they would be goi.ng this year for 250,000 tons to 300,000 tons. They can produce this yPar 250,000 tons jf they can get the markets for it.

But the markets are still not there. The markets are still poor. The European economy has not recovered. So now we are in a position at Labrador Linerhoard where we can visahly turn it out - I have not got the exact f1gures here now - but in recent days the production has been 900 tons. nne day it was over 1,000 tons. They can produce the linerboard now but the markets, the American situation is stiJl very difficult. The United States m:!lls are still selling over in Europe at low pr1.ces. In 197A there was a fifty or sixty dollar a ton difference 7908·

Tape 2739 Tll-3 1'T'. ~rnsr.u:: between th~ TTni tecl States pr:l ces a_nd the European because the American 'r.'1lJ s sol(! all the:lr pro~uction in the ll.S. It could all be sold therP and they din not ~ump any in Europe. In 1975 they started duJT'p1n~ in Furope because they could not sell it in North America. The prfces in Furope ,,rent down to the T.'.S. price which makes it very nifficult for us to sell there. So these are the economic facts in connection ~·1th Labrador T.:lnerboard. It bas bad more ups and dooms th:m y0u can shal'e a stick at, because of circumstances outside of tbe1 .r control.

Then "'"' still have another problem, that '~ben Labrador Linerboard gets to a pos:lt:!on where th~ir market w:!ll sustain and they can produce 300,000 tons of linerboard a year they have still not got an as!mren "'nod supply to T!'eet the 300,000 tons a year. Or If they can p:et the 1mod :It 1dll still be very high cost wood. You kno¥' so that the niff:lcult:l.es of T.abrador Linerhoard a.re essentially thC'se major facts, not difficulties created by the people who -work there, who may or rnay not be as efficient as the.y can be.

Or perhaps the place could he better manar;erL But the essential difficulties ~re not in their h'mns. They are in the hands of the government or this House to ch;mr.:e. There is not an av1ful lot that th:ls House can do about that e:lther. Those are the essential problems of Labrador Linerboarr. He have :In the estimates $28 mill:ton in capi taJ account to help keep Lnhrador L:tnerhoarc1 going. Now that is not all to operate Labrador Linerboard. .1\hout ~11 rrdllion of that is to pay prlncip~l and interest on the orir,~n1'.l .Tavel1n deht..

T think it :l !l $6 million odrl dollars on principal and !ln much on the intereRt . nf the original Javel in debt that the :;overnment h:1d gunranteet!. l·!hether Labrador Linerhoard operated or not that ~nne~' 1mu]d have to be pa:ld out by the govern!l'ent in any event. So -1 f it •. '" s pot operatinp, at all we '~ou] d not have to have $2 A million in tlre ef't:lmates. Perhaps v•e 1vould have to have something like ~: 11; million or $ l 7 miH:lon. 11ut a lot of :l.t woul.d sti 11 have to be 7909

Yay 17, 1976 Tape 2739 ~'R. f":RO~BIE: there anyway to meet these principal and interest costs, the