Manitoba Hansard — 18 July 2002 (Sitting 67A, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-67a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirt y-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 67A- 10 a.m., Thursday, July 18, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERJLLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3469 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, July 18, 2002 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak), that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ABORIGINAL AND NORTHERN AFFAIRS * (1 0:00) Mr. Cha irperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good morning. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. It was agreed at the last sitting of this committee that consideration of this department would be done in a global fashion. The floor is now open for questions. I think the minister was speaking as we closed House yesterday at six o'clock. The floor to the minister. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Chair, as we left off last night, I believe the question from my colleague was about personal care homes.

This being the primary responsibility of the federal government, as my colleague will know, the federal government had placed a moratorium on personal care homes on reserves for a number of years and just recently lifted that moratorium. The result has been a further demand by many First Nations communities throughout the prov ince of Manitoba, especially those in remote locations have recently made inquiries to our Government.

Where the Government of Mani toba plays a role in this is that we are licensing many of these personal care homes to the various levels as other personal care homes are run in the province of Manitoba. The need is definitely great as the popu lation of the Aboriginal community continues to get older. Our preference would be, I suppose, to have many of the Aboriginal elders in their home communities within distance of their loved ones, as opposed to having them placed in per sonal care homes far away from home and away· from familia r surroundings.

Our efforts will con tinue as a provincial government with the federal government to continue working on that. The most recent initiative has been with the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, otherwise known as Nelson House, where the provincial govern ment has recently agreed to license the personal care home in that community. It has been through many years of effort on the part of the community in lobbying with the federal govern ment and, to some degree, with the provincial government that they were able to determine that a personal care home is a requirement in their community.

Many communities, Sagkeeng First Nation in my collea gue's constituency, of course, is in need of upgrades to their personal care home and probably a realignment of their current designa tion as to the level of care that they provide for our elders. The work will continue. I want to assure my colleague that the provincial govern ment is going to be supportive to the best way we know how and to the extent of our juris diction with respect to personal care homes that are much needed in many of our communities throughout the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I, too, have concerns about Aboriginals liv ing in Aboriginal communities staying within their

3470 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18,2002 Aboriginal community within their own nursing home. My concern, as I said, is as a result of several phone calls that I received from people who work in the Sagkeeng First Nation personal care home. As you state that the Province is now in the process of licensing those personal care homes and my concern is that, knowing the facility as I do in Sagkeeng First Nation and the qualifi cations of the people who work there, they probably will not meet licensing standards.

Does the minister have any plans with respect to relaxing those licensing standards so that the personal care home is not in fact shut down until a new personal care home is built or until staff ing get the proper qualifications to run that nursing home? Mr. Robinson : Before I respond directly to the question posed by my colleague, allow me to introduce Jeff Gordon, who has joined us this morning. He is the director of Program Planning and Development Services with the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs.

On the personal care home issue in the com munity of the Sagkeeng First Nation, we have also been made aware of the situation there, and I believe that the Member for Lac du Bonnet is correct that we do have to as a provincial gov ernment relax some of the requirements that have been called for by the provincial govern ment. It is an issue that I will have to bring up with the minister directly responsible for this, the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Chomi ak), so I will raise that issue with him and I will notify the Member for Lac du Bonnet by a letter accordingly. Mr.

Hawranik: One of my constituents who is in Powerview, Mr. Raymond Grand {phonetic], who is a contractor, a few years ago contracted with Rea Gold in Bissett, which, of course, is a northern community. He did some work in a trailer park on Crown land in Bissett. To allow a trailer park to be built, he did some landscaping, he did some road building and sewer and water infrastructure on Crown land. Rea Gold did not pay him. He is still owed about $24,000. Yet the land on which that trailer court was built is still Crown land. The Province, in fact, is renting spots in that trailer court for $120 a month.

Can the minister, on behalf of my constitu ent, intervene and determine whether or not he can be paid for work that was done to that land to build that trailer court and to really enrich the province, in terms of the infrastructure that is there? * (10:10) Mr. Robinson: As far as I understand it this was work done for the mine company Rea Gold, that was in existence in the community of Bissett at the time. Unfortunately, no debt is owed by the Crown. However, realizing the circumstances of the individual who lives in Powerview, as I understand it, I will be asking our officials to investigate the matter more.

If indeed there is any way of assisting this gentleman we will definitely do our best. As in the previous response I made to the member, I will respond to him by letter, upon further investigation by our officials on this issue. Mr. Hawranik: Just a brief comment with respect to that matter, I just wanted to make it clear on the record that, yes, it was done for Rea Gold, but in fact the improvements were done to Crown land and Crown land still remains with the Province. So, in effect, the Province has benefited from the work he has done.

Since the Province is in fact renting out this land and making a profit on that land they maybe should share in some responsibility for payment of that bill. Mr. Robinson: As I understand it, the said individual is currently considering taking the matter before the courts. Nevertheless I will be asking our officials to investigate the matter. As I previously said, we will see where there may be some obligations owed by the Province of Manitoba and we will act accordingly and advise the member. Mr. Hawranik: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Of concern to me is the price of milk in northern Aboriginal reserves and of course

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3471 northern communities. We all know milk is a requirement for children growing up in any community. From what I understand, the price of milk on some Aboriginal reserves is much high er than the price of soft drinks and alcoholic beverages; it does not make a lot of sense. Are there any plans by the minister to control the price of milk on Aboriginal reserves in the province? Mr. Robinson: I do agree with the member.

The price of food is something I have always advo cated, including staples such as milk, is defi nitely a huge requirement in many of our north em communities. The Minister of Family Services and Hous ing (Mr. Sale) has been at the front on this issue. On the issue of milk itself he has been on the front end on behalf of the Government of Mani toba, where he has introduced a program of affordable milk and affordable milk product which has a longer shelf life than other products. I cannot off the top of my head recall what the acronym is for the product.

Recently a partner ship has been arranged with companies like Safeway to enable the shipping of this product to northern food stores to allow accessibility to communities and the members in north com munities to buy affordable products such as milk. However, the further details will be made available when the Department of Family Ser vices and Housing have the opportunity to pre sent their Estimates in this process, and I would advise the member that perhaps at that time he could pose his same question to the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale).

Not for a moment do I want to give the appearance that we are not interested. Definitely, our department is looking at different ways that we can develop partnerships, not only with the federal government, but perhaps with the private sector, in having the price of milk and other food products more easily accessible to communities that are particularly in remote locations of this province. So we will continue with that effort, and, as in all other areas of efforts by the Gov ernment, we will certainly advise to the best way we know how about some of these initiatives that are currently underway.

I might add there was a committee estab lished to look at this issue on food price and nutrition, and we are currently the lead on this working group. I will advise the member and all other members of the Legislature on the particu lar issues that are faced by northern Manitoba residents. I know my colleague the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) represents a constituency which has many remote communities, including some of the communities the furthest north in Manitoba, Tadoule Lake, Lac Brochet and other communities.

It is unacceptable the price of food and the price of milk that these people have to pay in many of the communities. Of course, I represent some of those communities as well, including places like Shamattawa and the Island· Lake communities and Gods River, Gods Lake Narrows, Oxford House, so we must make every effort to ensure that these people who live in these remote communities have accessibility to good nutritional food, not only for themselves, but definitely for the younger people, the chil dren, who rely on these in order to develop healthier communities. Mr.

Hawranik: I note that the minister had provided to the House a ministerial statement on May 7 of this year regarding the Camperville water treatment plant. At that time, we thanked him for his statement because it gave us some information and certainly told us what was happening in the community of Camperville because of the loss of their water treatment plant. I think he took appropriate steps to alleviate that situation somewhat until that plant was repaired or replaced. Of concern, of course, to me is the response from the Camperville fire department.

I under stand that they in fact do not have proper equip ment for firefighting in that community. I won der if the minister can give us some further information with regard to the kinds of equip ment, fire equipment, that they do have and the age of the fire equipment and so on. * (10:20)

3472 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 Mr. Robinson: We are working with the community of Camperville. It is an ongoing effort on our part, and we are definitely trying to upgrade many requirements in the community. One of the things that we are attempting to do, of course, is-the applications for 27 projects from something like 19 communities were submitted to the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program. Water and waste infrastructure projects have begun at the community of Camperville in addi tion to Duck Bay and Cormorant. Others will proceed when partners in financing are found.

These additional projects include the Waterhen Pikwitonei water plants, Wabowden and Hollow Water joint wastewater disposal site, which includes as well the community of Manigotagan and Seymourville and a disposal site at Easterville. I did not have an opportunity, I believe, to talk about these things in any great detail last night in my introductory remarks, but we have a total of 41 capital projects with a value of over $3 million that have been identified for delivery in this fiscal year on to 2003.

The major projects include wastewater treatment plants in Easter ville, Pelican Rapids, Berens River, Seymour ville, Duck Bay and Manigotagan. I did mention this last night, now that my recollection serves me better, with respect to the Manigotagan fire truck replacement.

A similar initiative is under way in Camperville where the department has been working with the community leadership in replacing the outdated fire truck that exists in the community currently, and efforts are being made to correct the situation and ensure that proper safeguards are in place if indeed hopefully not an incident that we experienced in Camperville should occur again. Every effort is being made by the department that I am responsible for and ensuring that this does not happen. Mr.

Hawranik: I understand from the interim mayor of the Camperville community council that, in fact, money was allocated last year in the budget of Northern Affairs for the replacement of their fire truck. Can the minister assure us, assure myself and assure the community that that fire truck will be replaced this year? Mr. Robinson: Well, I thank the member for raising this matter because Camperville was an area that did have some administrative problems prior, and that is why there is an interim mayor and council.

One of the reasons that led to the dismissal, I believe, or the resignation of the previous mayor and council was because of matters like that, that there was not the proper management of certain administrative require ments of the community and this department. Our department is working with the newly elected mayor and council, and certainly a priority is the issue of the fire truck and other much-needed services that are required in the community.

So the work is ongoing, and I wish that I could provide my colleague with a more appro priate answer, but I just want to assure him that the matter has been raised with our department. Our department took the appropriate action. An auditor has been working with the community and ensuring that this is one of the first times that this has occurred in our time, both with this Government and with the previous government where a community was unfortunately put in a situation financially as it was in Camperville.

Measures are being taken at the current time to ensure that this matter or issues like this should not happen again. Mr. Hawranik: Is there any provision in this year's budget for replacing that fire truck for Camperville in this year? Mr. Robinson: I am advised by staff that, unfor tunately, there is no money within this year's capital budget for the community of Camper ville, but new and innovative approaches are being considered by department officials to gether with the community. The community has a responsibility in this for their residents, as well as the leadership in that community.

There is definitely going to be a requirement that a part nership arrangement is developed with the com munity, and the community has been asked to come up with certain ideas as well. We are trying to be innovative in our approach within government, and perhaps leas ing a vehicle is probably the best method as opposed to an outright purchase of a fire truck which is a tremendous cost. But, through the leased method, I believe that this would go a long way in addressing the requirements of a fire truck in the community. That is one of the

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3473 options being considered by the department with respect to giving some feeling of safety for the community members that live in Camperville. Mr. Hawranik: I understand that Cross Lake is the only community that has not settled under the Northern Flood Agreement. Can the minister outline some of the issues that are still out standing and a possible time frame for settlement of that dispute? Mr.

Robinson: The member will know that on December 15, 2000, I stood up in the Manitoba Legislature and decla red our Government's recognition of the Northern Flood Agreement as a modem-day treaty as recommended by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. During that time, during the making of that statement, I also issued a number of initiatives that our Government was involved with in addressing some of these outstanding issues that exist in the Cross Lake community. We are moving on several fronts with Cross Lake.

I could itemize many of the initiatives that have been undertaken by the Manitoba government, Manitoba Hydro and the federal government. Certainly, one of the things that we began working on was through the Steering Circle initiative that was developed in 1998, and it was an arrangement that was agreed to by then Minister of Native and Northern Affairs, as the department was known then, Mr. Newman, David Newman, was the four-party process that included the federal government, provincial gov ernment, Manitoba Hydro and the First Nation of Cross Lake.

Unfortunately, the federal government felt that this was not achieving the goals that it could be on behalf of the residents and the citizens of Cross Lake. So what then became of that is a letter from the federal government to the com munity of Cross Lake indicating to the com munity that they were no longer going to be involved in the four-party process because they felt it was a waste of time, I suppose, to find, for a lack of better words.

Further, the federal gov ernment's decision has been to look at more project-driven initiatives in the community with respect to achieving positive results for the fed eral government and for the people who live in the community. * (10:30) As the member knows, we are proceeding with the community council side of Cross Lake on road upgrades, the sewer and water initiatives that are occurring there. As well, he will have noted, in my opening remarks yesterday, that we have named a

section of road in the community as the Ethel McLeod Drive, based on the recognition afforded the late Mrs. McLeod by The Fur Institute of Canada by being awarded the Jim Bourque Award as trapper of the, year, posthumously. We have been frustrated, to a large degree, by the reluctance of Cross Lake on many initia tives.

It appears that every effort that has been made by the governments, both the federal government and our Government, and of course, Manitoba Hydro, it appears that lawyers are driving in high-priced consult ants who have no interest in the betterment of the citizens of Cross Lake and the bread-and-butter issues that they have to face on a regular basis.

So our Gov ernment has been frustrated by the stalling tac tics, I might describe them as, that have been put forth by many non-Aboriginal consultants and high-priced lawyers that have no idea about the Aboriginal reality and what it is like to live on a reserve and the challenges that are faced by that particular community. Certainly, one of the discussions that we held, the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) who represents the area as an MLA, one of the initial discussions we had in late 1999 with the current Chief John Miswagon was that he wanted to move on several fronts.

We agreed to moving on those areas that he wanted to move on, including the mining opportunities for titani um that exists and continues to exist in the community, the building of a bridge, the Netnak Bridge, which is ongoing, as I reported yester day, and that work is currently underway. That will bring the community and connect it with the remainder of the province. So the work is on going on that front. The other issues that we are currently working on is the frontline work with the trap pers in trying to deal with the issues that they have.

We have, I think, to the best of our ability and I know that my predecessors in the previous

3474 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 government were also frustrated with the lack of progress that appeared to be there with our deal ings with the community of Cross Lake. I think that, if the community expressed some good will and progress-driven ideas, we would be further along. I wish I could report something positive on what is going on in Cross Lake. It is positive in a lot of ways.

However, I wish it could be more positive with respect to bringing down the unem ployment numbers that exist in the community, the socioeconomic problems that are faced, the high number of suicides that exist in the com munity, and we are trying to continue the work. The bridge itself in Cross Lake is a $20- million project. I described some of the work that we are doing on internal roads and the con struction of a new lagoon. That is going to cost approximately $3.7 million on the road repairs alone. The new sewage treatment plant will be worth in the neighbourhood of $1.3 million for this fiscal year.

Other issues that we have been talking about is supporting the Aboriginal summer games that were held there in the year 2001. The federal government's position, having described previ ously their withdrawal from the four-party pro cess was that the federal government, as stated in their letter to us, they will continue to meet and uphold the existing obligations under the North em Flood Agreement and have those obligations delivered on a proposal-driven approach. The Province of Manitoba will do likewise on that initiative. Mr. Hawranik: I note in your response you again mentioned Ethel McLeod.

I thank you for the information that you gave to me before you presented that award a few weeks ago in Cross Lake. I had the opportunity to go up there but unfortunately was not able to do so. I note from some of the materials you provided to me that she will be remembered for her love of nature, her spirituality and her gen erosity. She lived a very full life, something that Aboriginals can all be proud of. In fact, she was legendary as a trapper. I can tell you that my father, having been born in Manitoba in 1915, also trapped for a living for many years before he worked for the railway.

In my experience as a person growing up in the community of Whitemouth, I also trapped. So I know the hardships, the difficulties and the hard work that is involved with trapping. I do not trap anymore, of course, but I certainly did until I was about 25 years of age. It provided extra income for our family. [interjection} So only five years ago. So I can understand the community being very proud of her accomplishments and what she has done at such a late age, in fact, showing up many of the men in the community and how they could trap as well. You mentioned the titanium deposit in Cross Lake.

I understand it is a large deposit. It is a deposit that can be mined. In fact, if it is devel oped, it means a potential 1100 jobs in your community. I know that you are concerned. In fact, I understand that is your community and there is a high unemployment rate in that com munity as you mentioned. What progress is being made with respect to the development of that titanium site, and is there any end in sight in terms of having that deposit developed and creating those jobs for your community? Mr. Robinson: At one point there was a potential of creating 500 jobs with the proposed titanium mine at Cross Lake.

I just want to make my colleague aware that the discussion on this matter is ongoing. I know that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines will further elaborate on this when her time comes up to provide her department's expenditures for consideration by members of this House. Just by way of a brief update, in 1983 the Cross Lake First Nation identified lands in the vicinity of what is known as Pipestone Lake. They proposed these as compensation lands.

About 10 years after that, in 1993, Alan Paupanikis, a member of the Cross Lake First Nation, staked out 12 mining claims registered under the Cross Lake Mineral Exploration company.

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3475 As these claims were in the Cross Lake hold area, the policy of energy and mines at that time was to allow only the First Nations to stake claims for their own use. I believe the same poli cy still applies. The Cross Lake Mineral Explo ration was a company formed to hold the cl aims as the First Nations cannot hold a claim. Following the registration of the claims, the CLME, which is the Cross Lake Mineral Explo ration, entered into an agreement with Gossin Resources, whereby Gossin obtained an interest in the Tiffany claims.

This agreement was rene gotiated in 1996 and was ratified by the First Nation in August 1996. Mr. Minister, the work on the development of the Tiffany mine claim has been ongoing. Gossin Resources have had favorable results from studies that have been occurring at the site. There are apparently four other sites for similar development in the world. Those are Australia, India, South America and the United States. Cross Lake has maintained their position that the mine land must be transferred to reserve status and has suggested that the province buy out the third-party interest in the land.

That is something that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) would have more details about because she has been dealing with this issue for quite some time. She realizes the opportunity that does exist, not only in terms of the possibility for jobs, economic prosperity for the community but indeed perhaps a renewed sense of hope and a purpose in life by the citi zens of Cross Lake, which is my hope as well. I know others would be also given oppor tunities. The entire province would benefit if there was some movement.

A further update would be best provided by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines who has been work ing on this issue more intently than our depart ment has. However, our department will con tinue to work with the First Nations community and the community council in developing op tions related to opportunities that exist in that particular industry. Ultimately, our Government will be made aware of that on any movement. We will provide further details to members of this Legislative Assembly on any possible move ment that may occur with respect to the opportunities that do exist there.

I just want to advise my colleague that the opportunities con tinue to exist in Cross Lake. We hold out hope that perhaps the interest will be developed before that is lost into other interests by development companies who may see that there is too much political infighting within that area and move their concentration to other areas of the world. As I say, there are very few areas, to my under standing, that have deposits of that number or to that amount aside from those countries that I indicated earlier. Mr. Hawranik: Mr.

Minister, I understand that on December 20 of 2000 you appointed John McKay as one of the members of the board of directors of the Community Economic Develop ment Fund for a period of two years. Is he still a member of that board? Mr. Robinson: Before the member asks me the · question, I was troubled by Mr. McKay's proc lamation and misguided letter, I suppose, that he sent to businesses in the city of Winnipeg with respect to a wedding social that he and his wife to-be were having in Winnipeg a few weeks back.

It was reported in the Free Press that my name was used in the letter that was distributed to businesses that I would be making an appear ance at this. Nowhere in the letter, the form letter that was distributed to companies, did it say that it was a wedding social. In fact, it was regarded as a social celebration, I believe was the termin ology used in the letter. * (10:40) I was disappointed with Mr. McKay and how he tried to use other people's names in what I felt was personal gain for him. Equally, the Manitoba Metis Federation was disappointed by the actions of the said individual. Therefore, I called Mr.

McKay, and I said that the words that he used in the letter that was sent to companies and businesses in Manitoba were inappropriate, and we felt that he should have been very clea r in his letter that, in fact, it was for a wedding social. I asked Mr. McKay for his resignation, which he provided. Mr. McKay has now resigned from the CEDF board and has been replaced by another individual from the com munity of Gillam, a gentleman by the name of Robert Barbe. I have a lot of confidence in Mr.

3476 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 Barbe, but I want to just get ahead of my colleague. I know where this question is going, but I asked immediately for Mr. McKay's resignation, which I received. Mr. McKay has been removed from that board. Mr. Hawranik: I have a concern in Sagkeeng First Nation, which, of course, is in my constitu ency, in terms of the water supply in Sagkeeng First Nation. The water supply intake is appar ently downstream from the Tembec pulp and paper mill and in fact downstream from the discharge stream of the Pine Falls lagoon.

As we all know, lagoons do get flushed out periodi cally. The water intake for Sagkeeng is down stream of that lagoon. What further complicates this matter is well, first of all, there is a boil water advisory issued in Great Falls which is upstream of the Sagkeeng First Nation on the Winnipeg River. Several of the residents in that area, over the past number of months, have been testing their water, and their water quality, it leaves much to be desired as 200 to 300 parts per million coliform in some of the samples, particularly those who take the water from the river.

I am told that probably 95 percent of people living in that area receive their water directly from the river because it is difficult to obtain water from wells in that area. It is not just Sagkeeng First Nation that I am concerned about. It is also Pine Falls, Powerview, Great Falls, Silver Falls and all those communities in between, including St. George.

What I have been attempting to do is to try to get all those communities together and just in fact, beginning at this point, to getting them to talk together to try to establish some kind of a water system for that whole area, not just Sagkeeng First Nation, but also Pine Falls, Powerview and all the other communities in between because, when one drives along PTH No. II, you almost do not notice any difference in between the communities. It is quite develop ed in between the communities, and they all require a new water system. Now, the Pine Falls, Powerview, St.

George, Silver Falls, Great Falls area has applied for a federal infrastructure grant to replace their water system, and so far they have been refused. I believe, as well, that the Department of Aborigi nal and Northern Affairs should be participating in this process to have a co-ordinated approach, to have a water system for the entire area, not just for the communities outside of Sagkeeng First Nation, but to assist us in trying to get infrastructure grants to improve the water system in that whole area.

I am wondering whether or not the minister is aware of this problem and, if he is, whether he would be willing to assist my efforts in trying to improve the water situation for that entire area. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Minister, I am quite aware of the water problems that have been experi enced in Sagkeeng over the last several years. Certainly, when I represented the area prior to redistribution, it was an issue back then. It con tinues to be.

I had the opportunity of sitting down with residents from the north shore just very recently, including people like Wilfred Swampy and other people from the north shore, who made me aware of the problem that does exist in the com munity and the health hazard that the community feels exists in the community as a result of the area that they are in. Upon receipt of that infor mation, I contacted the chief medical officer's office about that.

An investigation was carried out, and, to the best of my knowledge, it was deemed that the water had to have the boil order, as the member recommended, call on for the community members. The Department of Health has monitored this issue for a number of years. I do not want to offload here.

Since the matter falls with the federal government and particu larly the Health Canada Department, our Gov ernment is prepared to work with, not only the member, but also the communities that he des cribed, and certainly our Government will take the lead role in finding the appropriate people in identifying this problem because that is one thing our Government is very concerned about.

That is an area that we need to address, and that is safe water, drinking water, particularly for the residents that he described, including Power view, Pine Falls and the Sagkeeng First Nation itself and upstream and downstream from the mill that does exist. I want to assure my colleague that we will make every effort to ensure that we have some representation, and I will raise this matter with the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms.

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3477 Friesen), whose department is primarily respon sible on this matter, and the Minister of Con servation (Mr. Lathlin), to some degree, as well. So I will raise these matters with those ministers and assure my colleague that we will act on this issue, and we will definitely work with the leaders of those communities and others to en sure that this issue is addressed in an appropriate way. * (1 0: 50) Mr. Hawranik: I have a question in regard to First Nations gaming and First Nations casinos.

I understand there are four remaining projects still to be built, and one of which is close to my con stituency being the Brokenhead First Nation. I am wondering if you can provide me with an update as to the status of that particular project, as well as the status of the remaining projects that need to be completed and a report as to how the existing casinos are progressing and doing. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Minister, as the member knows, the casino in The Pas opened in February of this year at OCN. The others are in various stages of development.

The Nelson House pro posal, of course, we are all aware of what occurred there with the town of Thompson, so that initiative has been put aside for the time being. Swan Lake was another controversial ini tiative that occurred. With respect to the possibility of the next casino opening up in Manitoba, it would have to be, in my estimation, Sioux Valley, because Sioux Valley has done a tremendous amount of work in identifying investors. It has done some work as well on locations.

It was one of the only proposals that the committee that was struck considered that had a backup site in addition to their main location. It also contained the R.M. of Sifton in their proposal. So they are currently dealing with that issue at an appropriate pace, I think. With respect to Brokenhead, to the best of my knowledge, they have not yet identified investors on how they can proceed with the project in Brokenhead. There are some outstand ing issues, to the best of my knowledge, that do exist there.

It is not only the community of Brokenhead but indeed a consortium of other communities that are involved in the initiative at Brokenhead. So the work there is going to take some time. With respect to time frames, it would appear now that we are down to probably three loca tions that we can potentially look at now.

The Government picked up this project on the basis of the Bostrom Report, and it was based on a report that my deputy minister did which recom mended the development of up to five casinos in the province of Manitoba; not five now and five later, but up to five is what we can handle and what was identified as being a possibility in the province of Manitoba. So if, indeed, within the next period of time these are the communities that I just talked about that were the selected sites but do not have the ability to proceed, then we will have to be more innovative if there is indeed going to be a next round.

Perhaps there will not be. I cannot com mit my Government to saying that we will have another round of casinos at this point in time. We should give these communities, however, every opportunity to complete the pro jects that they set out to do and give them every oppor tunity to succeed. The Pas OCN casino, Aseneskak Casino, for example, has created over 100 jobs in the com munity of OCN and The Pas and surrounding areas. That brings a sense of pride to the com munity. Some people have their feelings about gambling. We all have our personal feelings about certain things.

Some view it as a sinful operation, but if you look on the positive end of this initiative, it does provide jobs; it does provide opportunities; it does provide a renewed sense of hope in a family unit for a person to be able to go out and earn a living during the course of the day. Prior to the casino being developed in The Pas, these jobs were not available in that area, so I think that credit has to go to the Aseneskak consortium who have developed this casino that is now operating on Opaskwayak Cree Nation.

We want to ensure and it is on that basis that our Government moved, that we saw the long-term benefits of gaming with the development of a casino that is providing jobs, jobs that were not there prior. We want to ensure that these

3478 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 commumt1es that have embarked upon the casino initiatives are given every opportunity to succeed. With respect to time frames, I believe that the minister responsible for gaming, the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton) will be better able to provide answers on time frames, when we expect the other com munities to open their doors, if you will. I serve on a subcommittee of Cabinet with the Minister of Transportation and Government Services on ensuring that these casino initiatives do succeed. We, of course, Mr.

Chair, are hopeful they will, because, no doubt, the naysayers will be bashing not only our Government but indeed other people for the failure of these casinos. So we want, I think all of us here are to a degree in favour of economic development, certainly on First Nations communities. I believe we are all agreed on that. We want these projects to suc ceed, and we have every hope that they will. Mr. Hawranik: Have you received any finan cial reports with respect to the income expense statements of The Pas casino to date?

If you have, can you provide me with a report as to how it has been doing as compared to what it was projected to do? Mr. Robinson: I do not have any reports that have been provided to our Government, but certainly I think that regular reporting proce dures are occurring with Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, as an example, and the Gaming Commission wi ll no doubt have an annual report provided to them. It has only been since Febru ary that the casino opened, so I would anticipate that the reports will be provided.

If anything aside from that should become available that we are provided with, I will no doubt share it with my colleague. Mr. Hawranik: Is the mm1ster planning on introducing any legislation this session? Mr. Robinson: Not at the current time. One of the areas that we do want to move on intro ducing some legislation, it will not be this sum mer. It will occur probably in the fall, as further work is required on The Northern Affairs Act, and that will be the piece of legislation that will be introduced in the House, if any, in the fall. Mr.

Hawranik: I know that the Province of Saskatchewan has moved in terms of introducing legislation for Metis, and there has been talk about the Province of Manitoba introducing similar legislation. Can you comment on that as to whether or not you will be introducing legislation in that respect and the time frame within which you expect to introduce it? * (1 1:00) Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chair, unfortunately, draft ers for legislation like this are not available at the current time.

So, if any legislation is pro posed, it will come in the fall session of the Manitoba Legislature, and that will be on The Northern Affairs Act in itself. With respect to the recognition of Metis people in the specific legislation, that is under consideration right now. A Metis recognition act perhaps is what we have to consider in the province of Manitoba to recognize the umque status of Metis people in this province.

Also, it has been proposed to me by others in the community that we ought to consider the designation of June 21 as a day of recognizing the contribution of Aboriginal people to the development of this country. That perhaps is something that we can work on together in the coming time that we have and will be serving together in this Legislature. Certainly a recog nition act of June 21 is a consideration as well, but much work has to be done with respect to acknowledging that day as a day of recognizing Aboriginal people. I will keep my colleague up to date, Mr.

Chairperson, on any consideration of any legis lation that this department will be introducing. Mr. Hawranik: An issue that is of concern to my constituency, and I think the minister's as well, is the road on the east side of Lake Winnipeg because I believe that that opens up opportunities for mineral exploration, harvesting of forests, more recreational opportunities and

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3479 more jobs in those areas. I know that the process is progressing in the sense that you have, I see, appointed Phil Fontaine as a member of the East Side Lake Winnipeg Round Table. I would like to hear a report as to the progress of that road and the progress of that round table with respect to sustainability. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, we do have some interest in this, as well, not only because I represent much of the area that my colleague describes, but there are several initiatives under way currently.

Right now there is a request for proposals on an engineering study. At the moment, there is a study going on on several fronts, not only on the environmental side, but definitely on the matter with respect to whether or not the communities want it.

We have the round table initiative which is chaired by Phil Fontaine, former national leader of the Assembly of First Nations who has been designated by our Government to do some work on that, along with the stakeholders, not only from the business community, but also people from the community level, people from Mani toba Hydro, the environmentalists that have a concern of this.

I think that this initiative is required in order-we were fractured prior because, when we first considered this, the previous government had not considered it to any great degree, but when our Government began in 1999, our gov erning of this province began in 1999, and efforts became more earnest in how we were going to address the east side initiative, much consideration was given, including meetings that we had with the chiefs and other stakeholders with respect to development on the east side.

What we have determined is that, because of the global warming situation we are faced with in this country, the low life, or the shortened life span of the winter road systems, it became more and more evident, and it is still evident that we need an all-weather road system on the east side of Manitoba. It is not only the road development that we are concerned about, but also the eco nomic prosperity of the people who live on the east side.

Currently, our Government is involved, and our department is a significant player with respect to finding federal partners, as one example, to cost share some of the initiatives. Certainly, we as a provincial government would never be able to burden or be saddled with the burden of bearing the costs of all the require ments on developing the east side.

We need the federal government, we need the private sector, we need public utilities like Manitoba Hydro to be a player in this, and, if indeed there is a consideration for an export sales initiative by Hydro and a corridor is required and the east side is being considered for that, definitely, that will be part of the overall planning. So, Mr. Chairperson, we are continuing with the work, and, very simply put, the requests for proposals on the engineering study is on going. The seeking out of federal cost-sharing dollars is being sought out.

The educational and· employment opportunities that will occur if the east side is developed further is also something that is under active consideration. The round table is ongoing, which is comprised of many people that have an interest in that initiative, including the ones I described, chaired by Phil Fontaine. That work is ongoing, and we antici pate positive results. That is the latest I can report at this time on developments with respect to the east side. Mr. Hawranik: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I par ticipated in the Estimates of Conservation previ ous to this, and of concern to me is the fish stocks in the province of Manitoba. Of course, we all know that Aboriginals have treaty rights in terms of their right to fish for food, which was confirmed, not only by the treaties, but, of course, by the Supreme Court of Canada, and no one disputes that. They certainly have the right to fish for food. On the other side of that is the fact that we have to ensure that fish stocks are sustainable because, if we do not look after our fish stocks, there will not be any fish for Aboriginals to fish for.

Of concern was, of course, the actions of the Aboriginal communities in Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies this past spring. As I say, we have to ensure that fish stocks are sustainable, and there has to be fish stocks for, not only

3480 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 Aboriginals, but sport fishers and commercial fishers. Of concern to me were the comments by the Minister of Conservation during those Estimates that he was consulting with the Aboriginal com munity, but he did not seem to want to consult with sports fishers and commercial fishers. I would like to ask of you what your posi tion is with respect to Aboriginal fishing. Mr. Robinson: My personal position has always been to seek out consensus on matters like this with all stakeholders, whether they be non Aboriginal or Aboriginal.

I certainly cannot speak for my colleague the Minister of Con servation (Mr. Lathlin). I was not here for all of the Estimates time he was here for, but certainly I think he has done some positive things, including the Aboriginal Resource Council which he developed which advises him on mat ters like this. I believe the member is absolutely right that we have to consider the long-term sustainability of these. That includes hunting as well. I know of no other people than Aboriginal people who have a better sense of this.

They are very concerned about some of the slams that Aborig inal people, they themselves have taken in the media as a result of fearmongering by others in society who have decided Aboriginal people are an easy target whenever a situation like this should arise. I agree with my colleague, the matter at Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies indeed became an item of concern for all of us when this matter first came up. We are moving in the area of co management.

Dialogue has been held with the West Region Tribal Council and other players, to my knowledge, not having been directly involved in this matter with respect to what my colleague, the Minister of Conservation, has done. My personal positiOn has always been to seek consensus on these very difficult issues we are faced with every once in a while.

I think once we can get through the misunderstandings that occur every now and again we will be all better in society and perhaps in a better position to co-exist, as we do with nature and the very things we are talking about, including fish stocks and the animals we hunt or trap for. If people can have an understanding about how those things are, how those things work, then we would be in a much better position than we are now, where it appears that only understanding exists. Co-management, I believe, is the area we have to go. Certainly, I would have to agree understanding has to be developed.

Perhaps, if our Government is not doing the appropriate job in creating better awareness and seeking con sensus on these difficult issues, then I would expect the Opposition to point these out to us. If indeed we are failing in that regard, I would expect my colleague the Member for Lac du Bonnet to point this out to me. * (11 :1 0) Mr. Chair person: Order. It is my understanding that Fisheries is not in this

section of the Esti mates. They have been covered in the Estimates of Conservation. So we have sort of covered this issue previously. I just thought I would point that out. Mr. Hawranik: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, it may be, but it is an Aboriginal issue as well. I believe I should be entitled to some answers from the Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Minister in regard to that. Mr. Chair person: I think I should ask: Is there leave for the committee to discuss Fisheries in this

section of the Estimates? Mr. Robinson: If I may, Mr. Chair, I believe we are just having a global discussion on some very basic issues, so I really have no problem with that. Mr. Chair person: Right. Leave has been granted. Mr. Hawranik: I have a question with regard to Clearwater Lake Provincial Park. Of course, it is a conservation issue, but it is an Aboriginal issue as well, as it involves the Treaty Land Entitle ment Framework Agreement entered into with the Aboriginal community.

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3481 Under that framework agreement, Aborig inal land settlements can occur with respect to Crown land. It provides a clear process within which Aboriginal communities can select Crown land for treaty land entitlement. With respect to Clea rwater Lake Provincial Park the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement provides not for a transfer of park land to an Aboriginal community but it provides for co-management of provincial parks, as long as certain criteria are met.

What is your position with respect to the Opaskwayak First Nation community asking for land in Cle arwater Lake Provincial Park under the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agree ment? What is the position of the minister with respect to that? Mr. Robinson: I know that dialogue is occur ring right now with the Government of Mani toba, with the TLE committee and other parties, including OCN and the cottage owners at Clearwater Lake. I do not want to interfere in the dialogue that is occurring there. There are pro visions within the TLE Framework Agreement to deal with this issue.

I do not want to offer my own opinion about Clearwater Lake. All I do know is that this was the traditional territory of the Opaskwayak people and that it was once used for hunting and fishing and ceremonial grounds according to my under standing and according to the elders that I have spoken with from that area. The framework agreement itself outlines principles to be used as guidelines in the selection and acquisition of land. Acquisition is undertaken on a willing buyer and a willing seller basis, so neither Canada nor Manitoba is really in a position to expropriate any land or interest in land.

I know that there is a bit of an impasse at Clearwater Lake, and I know that the minister responsible made a statement in the House in response to a question by the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) I believe this past week about the issue. I know that he has taken it under advisement, and he has extended the period of time in order for that initiative by the Opaskwayak Cree Nation to have more discussions and more dialogue with the people who are going to be directly affected, and I support that.

But there are mechanisms, and as I reported yesterday, our Government and our department particularly developed a handbook which is to be used for creating a better understanding about Treaty Land Entitlement. A process for partner ship on economic development opportunities and Treaty Land Entitlement is described in detail.

So there is a process in place, and I know the cottage owners in the Clea rwater area of that area of the province are aware of this, and they should take the opportunity to have a discussion with the First Nation, which I am sure they will, because we cannot afford to have a public fight like this. I mean we all have to co-exist in this province, and we cannot have Aboriginals versus non-Aboriginals on issues like this and creating misunderstandings. So I am quite confident in my colleague the Minister of Conservation (Mr.

Lathl in) in prolonging the process a little further and perhaps creating more understanding about the issue. Mr. Hawranik: I just have a brief comment with respect to that because I feel that the issue is perhaps misunderstood. The framework agree ment, in fact, outlines a process where you can have co-management of a provincial park. It does not provide for transferring ownership of a provincial park to an Aboriginal community under a treaty land process. It does not provide for that. So, in fact, the framework agreement is not being followed.

Instead, what is happening, what appears to be happening is that the Prov ince is moving to reduce the size of Clea rwater Lake Provincial Park, to take provincial park land and now make it Crown land and then, after converting that provincial park land to Crown land, allowing the OCN to exercise their right under the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement.

That I feel is wrong because what we are doing, and I agree there is a connection between the Aboriginal land claim of OCN to that partic ular land but, in fact, part of that agreement allows for the OCN to co-manage it, not to own it, but to co-manage it with the Province. I think that is in place, in fact, for the Petroform site in the Whiteshell Provincial Park. That is no different. In fact, OCN does not have to ask for that land under the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement. It does not have to ask for ownership of that land but in fact could co-

3482 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 manage it with the Province. That is what we object to because I feel that, if we do it with one park, it opens up land claims in other provincial parks, provincial parks like the Whiteshell Provincial Park, Bird's Hill Provincial Park and even Grand Beach. I think provincial parks should be for everyone's use, not for private use. There is a mechanism under the framework agreement for the OCN to co-manage it, not to own it but to co-manage it. I think this is the way they should proceed under that framework agreement. Mr.

Robinson: I am going to read Hansard in more detail about the comments made by my colleague. I want to study that. I want to respond to him without giving the appearance that I disagree with him or agree with him at the present time. I have to study this a little in greater detail because · I do not know if we are actually in non-compliance with the agreement that was agreed to prior. The framework agree ment is what we are talking about. I believe that we are falling within the framework agreement, but I want the opportunity to study the Hansard of our dialogue today.

I am going to respond to my colleague by letter to further elaborate on my thoughts about the issue and, at the same time, with the Whiteshell matter that he brought up with the rock formations that do exist there. That is going to be a subject, I believe, as well, of a treaty land entitlement issue. There are some communities that are looking at that as part of their treaty land entitlement fulfillment.

I just want to leave that issue for the time being and assure the member that I will be writing to him responding to the information that he has pro vided to us here. * (11: 20) I just want to say further that if there are any issues or matters in dispute that are not resolved by the parties or an entitlement First Nation, they can be referred to the Implementation Monitor ing Committee. I did say that yesterday, but, in fact, this body has not been used that often and the process has been quite smooth in all other areas.

Perhaps that should be a consideration in this matter if there is no positive progress made with respect to Clearwater Lake. I will respond on the other issue with my colleague by letter in the next little while. Mr. Hawranik: You mentioned earlier that you have plans, perhaps within the fall session or perhaps a little later, to replace the existing Northern Affairs Act. That act has been in place since, I believe, 1972 . Can you provide me with some information with respect to what needs to be changed in that act or whether it needs to be totally revised or whether there are just amend ments that are planned?

Mr. Robinson: The act itself goes back to 1975 . The last change that occurred was, I believe, in the 198 8-1989 time frame. It is outdated to a large degree in certain respects. It is not that we are going to abolish the old one. We are going to pretty much update the current one that we have to conform with the times. There have been some new realities that have set in. Some of the communities, the over 50 communities that are governed by our act, as an example, do not even exist any more. I think that we have to bring things up to date, if you will.

On the details of the act itself, I cannot provide that at this current time because the work is pretty much in progress. We have heard from the communities on their thoughts about it. Their input has been sought. I can say that the results have been positive. We are considering that currently within the department, the feed back that we received from the communities. I will be in a better position, if indeed we are going to introduce legislation, to brief the mem ber on what it contains. I want to assure the member, as I did my previous critic, the honourable Member for Morris (Mr.

Pitura) that, at any time, if there is an issue that should arise that requires our staff to brief the member, definitely that staff is always available to brief you on these matters. I will put out that offer at this time as well with respect to this matter. Mr. Hawranik: The Sagkeeng First Nation, I understand, entered into a partnership agree ment, or will be entering into a partnership agreement, with Tembec pulp and paper mill with respect to developing a sawmill in Pine Falls. Because of the trade war with the United States in terms of the softwood lumber issues, that project has been delayed.

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3483 Mr. Chairperson, could the minister advise what the status is of that partnership and whether or not he is aware of any information with respect to Sagkeeng's capability of carrying out their obligations with respect to the sawmill? Mr. Robinson: Because of the softwood lumber dispute that is occurring in the United States, the initiative has been put on hold, to my under standing. The bands that are part of the consorti um that is in the agreement with Tembec, or in that partnership arrangement with Tembec, are currently studying the issue a little further.

Mr. Chair, further work is required, including equity requirements by the First Nations that are in this partnership with the Sagkeeng First Nation. I cannot recall the number of First Nations that are involved in this partnership, but definite ly Sagkeeng is not alone on this arrangement they have made with Tembec. Certainly, our support is there for the initiative. Financially, perhaps, we cannot contribute, but morally we can offer the support they require.

There are certain aspects that our Government is involved with, with respect to forest licence allocations and so on, but because of the uncertainty of the industry itself with respect to softwood to the best of our knowledge it has been set back a little. Equity partners are also required in order for the project to proceed. We would have liked it had the project proceeded in a much quicker fashion because it does provide a lot of oppor tunities with respect to employment for Aborig inal people, particularly in that region. Mr. Hawranik: Mr.

Chairperson, I would be willing to go to a line-by-line discussion at this point. Mr. Chair person: All right. We will go line by line. We will turn to page 23 of the main Estimates book. 19 .I. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Executive (

b) Executive Support (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits $642,400. Shall the line pass? Mr. Hawranik: What are the staff vacancy rates in the department? Mr. Robinson: I am advised we are required to keep a 6% vacancy rate, as required by the Government. The department itself is staffed by, roughly, 84.5 positions are contained within the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. That is not a huge number either, given we are responsible for 82 percent of the land mass of the province of Manitoba. So we are viewed sometimes as a government operating within a government.

I just want to advise my colleague that a 6% vacancy rate applies. * (1 1 :30) Mr. Hawranik: Do you feel the 6% vacancy rate will still allow you to continue services as they were before, as they existed prior to this budget? Mr. Robinson: What we have done, Mr. Chairperson, since coming into office is we have made some restructuring moves. Not to any great degree, but I think with the current staff ing, yes, we would always like to have more staff because of the requirements, not only on the Northern Affairs side of things but because of the many and complex Aboriginal issues that arise from day to day.

However, I think, within means and given the financial circumstances governments have to face in the modern day, we are able to do the job that is required of us. I must commend all the staff in our department for the hard work they put in every day because all of them are very required and all of them are very productive in the jobs they do, including the gentlemen that are with me this morning. To make the answer a little shorter, we would like to have more, yes, we would, but with what we have we can do the job that is required of us. Mr.

Hawranik: Can the minister advise how much funding lapsed overall from last year? Mr. Robinson: I am going to have to take that question under notice, and I will reply to the member by letter. Mr. Hawranik: Can you tell me some of the duties of your special assistant and the executive assistant, their qualifications and when they were hired?

3484 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 Mr. Robinson: Currently, the executive assist ant position is vacant for me. However, the special assistant is Lorraine Bear. She is a mem ber of the Peguis First Nation. She is a former schoolteacher, took a break from that, came from a small business, brings a vast amount of experi ence to the job and advises me accordingly on some events that occur at the federal level. She has done some work with the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. She has done some work with the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce.

She is involved with the private sector in her own time, and she is well aware of the cir cumstances that First Nations particularly are faced with in Manitoba and in Canada. She has proven to be a very valuable asset to my office. The position of executive assistant is cur rently vacant and will remain so for the balance of the summer. That is the only staff that I have within my office at the current time. Mr. Ch airperson: I. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Executive (

b) Executive Support (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits $642,400--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $238,800. Mr. Hawranik: I notice that in this Other Expenditures line is the travel expenses of the minister and his executive assistant and so on. Having been provided with information with respect to his travel expenses, I notice that his travel expenses are almost double what the next minister is allotted, the next minister being the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Ashton). Can the minister advise whether that is typical of any minister in the past? Has it been around the $70,000 range in the past? Have other ministers travelled to that extent? Mr.

Robinson: I will provide a breakdown by letter to the member. As a MLA and repre senting a constituency as I do, Rupertsland, where I have no transportation system other than airplanes to get to my constituency, I am usually one of the members of this Assembly who has the biggest travel budget expenditures, if you will, because many of the communities that I have to fly to, it has to be done by charter aircraft.

With respect to the ministerial office, I can say that the requirements and the call for us and particularly in my role as the co-chair of the federal-provincial-territorial Aboriginal organi zations forum right now, we are required to be in other areas of the province and in other areas of Canada on different occasions. I do not know if this differs much from the previous ministers who were charged with this responsibility or not, and that is why we will provide the member with a breakdown of previ ous expenditures in this area over the last few years, and I will gladly provide that.

I know the member, if indeed he becomes a member of the government side-hopefully not right away-will come to realize that these requirements are becoming more and more demanding, and sometimes we can accom modate the needs of the people who call our office in order for us to be present at a certain location in other areas of Manitoba or in other areas of Canada. But I could say that this particular portfolio, generally, because of the complexity of it and because of the uniqueness of it, is quite demand ing with respect to the travel requirements.

But I will provide the breakdown on travel expendi tures over the last few years to the member at the earliest opportunity. * (11 :40) Mr. Ch airperson: Line I. (b)

(2) Other Expendi tures $238,800-pass. 2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Opera tions (

a) Financial and Administrative Services (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits $375,600- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 17,300. Mr. Hawranik: I have a question with regard to this particular line. I notice that, from 200 1- 2002, it was $1 26,700 and was substantially reduced in 2002 -2003. Can you advise me why that was reduced? There is the same amount of staff. I am wondering why that line would have been reduced. Mr. Robinson: All departments were expected to comply with the requirements of our

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3485 Government and some of the cost-saving meas ures we must take, and this is one the areas that we identified within our department that could take a bit of a hit. That is why the reduction. Mr. Chai rperson: Line 2. (a)

(2) Other Expen ditures $11 7 ,300-pass. 2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Opera tions (

b) Local Government Deve lopment ( 1) Programs/Operational Support (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 85,700-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $92 ,500-pass; (

c) Community Operations $8,0 17, 500. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Chairperson, I notice that the budget is a little over $8 million, and I am not sure what is in that budget category as to what is involved in that area. Mr. Robinson: That line would reflect the requirements of the community councils to carry out the work that they have to do. So that is the expenditures required by community councils to carry out the work for their constituents and also their own governments within their own areas. Mr. Hawranik: Does that involve any salaried employees in that budget? Mr.

Robinson: Yes, all the salaries of the community council employees, whether they are council clerks or recreation workers, public works staff, that is the line we are talking about, and that is where they receive their salary from. Mr. Chairperson: Line 2.( b)(l)(

c) Community Operations $8,0 17 ,500-pass; (

d) Regional Services $498,500. Mr. Hawranik: I see that there is a substantial reduction from one year to the next, and it involves a $9 1, 000 reduction, which is a 16% or 17% reduction. Why is there that reduction? What did they do to accomplish that reduction? Mr. Robinson: It is again an area we thought we could save some money. In complying with the Government's overall agenda in trying to save some money, this is an area that we thought we could afford to lose money on, and this is what we went though in the Estimates process. Therefore, that is why the reduction as indicated. Mr. Chairperson: I will read line 2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Operations (

b) Local Government Development ( 1) Programs/Opera tional Support (

d) Regional Services $498,5 00- pass; (

e) Grants $253 ,700. Shall the line pass? Mr. Hawranik: Can the minister tell me where these grants go and for what purpose they are given? Mr. Robinson: That is to allow the Northern Association of Community Councils to do the work that they have to do in maintaining an office in co-ordinating the activities of the over 50 communities under our act, and they are underfunded to a large degree as well. But they maintain an office in Winnipeg. They have a president, vice -presidents and an executive, and they also have a co-ordinating office located on Albert Street in Winnipeg.

It is really an effec tive co-ordinating body in dealing with our · Government. It is the representative organization of all the matters and the councillors that are under our Northern Affairs Act. Mr. Chairperson: I will read line 2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Operations (

b) Local Government Development (1 ) Programs/Opera tional Support (

e) Grants $253,7 00-pass. We will go on with 2.(b)

(2) Northern Region (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $824,3 00. Shall the line pass? Mr. Hawranik: I note that the Salaries and Employee Benefits are for employees in the Northern Region. Can you tell me where these staff are located and what the current vacancy level is? Mr. Robinson: We have two staff members in The Pas, one vacancy there. We have twelve staff members in Thompson, two vacancies. We also have a staff complement in Dauphin. But that is the staff complement with this particular line that we have in the Thompson office. Mr. Chairperson: I will read 2. (b)

(2) Northern Region (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $824 ,300-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $337,700-pass.

3486 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 I will read 2. (b)

(3) North Central Region (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $756,300 . Shall the line pass? Mr. Hawranik: notice that in the budget details, in this particular area there was a reduc tion of one Professional Technical staff. Can you tell me why there was that reduction, and with that reduction, does he think he can maintain the current level of services in that region? Mr. Robinson: Again, in keeping with the wishes of the Government, we had to make some decisions.

As I said at the outset of our Estimates process of this particular department, we have had to make some very hard decisions with respect to maintaining this department's expendi tures. That was a reassignment within the depart ment, and I cannot specifically tell the member where the position may have gone, but in complying we feel that we can do the job that is required of us with the current complement that we have. Mr. Cha irperson: I will read 2.( b)

(3) North Central Region (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $756,30�pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $269 ,30�pass. 2. (b)

(4) Northern Affairs Fund (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2 12,90� pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $57,1 00. Mr. Hawranik: I know that this other expenditures includes transportation expendi tures, and I note that the transportation will be down by 25 percent. What has changed to merit that decrease in transportation budget, yet in other areas I see, in the budget, transportation has increased or stayed the same? So I am concerned about why that has come down 25 percent when in other areas it has in fact increased. Mr. Robinson: Again, Mr. Chairperson, it is a cost-saving measure.

Limiting the number of trips without bringing any undue pressure to any particular community, or undue hardship, we have had to make, including this one, decisions to ensure that we are still able to carry out the work that is required of our department and at the same time trying to follow the Government's guideline of trying to maintain the cost-saving measures that we have to be a part of, as well as part of the overall government operations. Mr. Chair person: I will read line 2. (b)(4)(

b) Other Expenditures $57, 10�pass. 2. (b)

(5) Program Planning and Development Services (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $398,200. Mr. Hawranik: I notice that there is a $27,000 increase from one year to the other, and yet there are still six full-time positions that are main tained. There are no extra positions that were created in this department. I am wondering why there is such an increase in salaries being allocated in this department. * (11 :50) Mr. Robinson: When the reorganization of the department occurred, there was also a reclassifi cation process. Therefore, the salaries fluctuated as they did to bring everybody in line. So that is why the reflection is noted here. Mr. Cha irperson: I will read 2.(b)

(5) Program Planning and Development Services (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $398,20�pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $1 00,90�pass. 2.(

c) Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat (

I) Support Services (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $323, 40�pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $84,20�pass. 2 .( c )

(2) Agreements Management ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $489, 300-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $1 40,60�pass; (

c) Agreements Implementation $1,355, 000. Mr. Hawranik: Can the minister tell me what is in here and how much is legal expenses and to which firms? Mr. Robinson: That particular line is all North em Flood Agreement-related expenses, and the only legal expenses that would be reflected in that line would be the Department of Justice. Mr. Chair person: I will read line 2. Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Operations (

c) Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat

(2) Agreements Management

July 18 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3487 (

c) Agreements Implementation $1, 355, 000- pass. We will go on to the next line: 2.(c)

(3) Policy and Strategic Initiatives (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $372,6 00-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $13 2,500- pass; (

c) Aboriginal Develo pment Programs $2,293 ,30 0- pass; (

d) Aboriginal Economic and Resource Develop ment Fund $1 ,400,000- pass; (

e) Healthy Child Initiatives $1 13 ,000- pass; (

f) Partners for Careers $200,000- pass. We will read 2,(

d) Communities Economic Development Fund $1, 51 4,900-pass. Resolution 19 .2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $20,9 16 ,300 for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Opera tions, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2003. Resolution agreed to. Mr. Chairperson : We will go on with page 24, 19 .3 Capital Grants (

a) Northern Communities $5,1 58 ,300-pass; (

b) Community Access and Resource Roads $235 ,000- pass. Resolution 19 .3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,3 93 ,300 for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Capital Grants, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 2003. Resolution agreed to. Mr. Chairperson: The time being 12, I am interrupting proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon follow ing the conclusion of Routine Proceedings. AGRICU LTURE AND FOOD * (10: 10 ) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Jim Rondeau) Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will now resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture and Food. We are now currently considering item 3 .1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Sup port. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Chairman, it has been suggested that maybe we look at going broad- based again, and I would put that request forward, at least this morning. I I know I certainly was not here for the discussions that took place around Executive Support and the committee with the critic. So I would be prepared in his absence, at least this morning, to spend a few hours looking at some broader questions.

I know I had started some of that yesterday, but I just have some more ques tions in regard to cl imatic issues, a number of those as well. Would that be a reasonable· request? The Acting Chair person (Mr. Jim Rondeau): Is it the will of the committee to allow flexibility on questioning? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agricul ture and Food): Mr.

Chairman, we had come to an agreement with the critic that we would work line by line, but given that the member is covering for the critic, I guess we can do that as long as the member recognizes that in some cases the appropriate staff may not be here because they have not been notified because staff knows that we are on Executive Support. They always time their attendance at committee based on where we are in the Estimates process. So, if the member understands that, then let us proceed. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Jim Rondeau): Okay, it is the will of the committee to allow flexibility, so we shall proceed.

Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minis ter for that consideration. If I get too far away, stray too far away from a topic that we need more expertise in, please go ahead and let me know, but I think the areas that I want to look at this morning are probably pertinent when I look at the expertise that you have before you this morning. For myself and the quite capable staf f

3488 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2002 who are sitting here with us, I am sure that I will not have anything that will be stumping anyone here this morning. So, thank you very much, Madam Minister, for taking that into con sideration. Mr. Chairman, I know that my colleague from the Ste. Rose riding yesterday, Gladstone, the member for that area was asking some questions around, I believe, the issue of the elk. I will not go back to that. I will let him deal with that as he did yesterday. I know the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard) had some questions around some of the issues of the risk manage ment programs that perhaps Ottawa is looking at. I guess just before I start on that-and I have a few more ar eas. There are questions that I wanted to ask the minister on that whole topic because there was a lot of concern amongst pro ducers across the province as well. Just as I left yesterday, I was discussing the issue of drought and that sort of thing in my region that I represent in Arthur-Virden in the southwest comer of the province.

I had more discussions with producers in that area, with farmers in that area, last evening, and I just have to reiterate that concern again in regard to the kinds of situations that they are facing. That region of Manitoba, as the minister well knows-it extends right up into her own area-h as been very much in a state of flux. I will not say distress, because many people have been able to deal with the change in the Crow very adeptly, but it has thrown others into turmoil, to use that word.

But those who have adapted and are adapting to it certainly are making changes in their operations, and those changes general ly require an infusion of capital or an increased operating cost at the least that may take five to ten years to absorb in their operations. Mr. Chairperson, when we are looking at the different decades of farmers who are out there, and I include myself as one of those who is in his fourth decade there, I would certainly say that it is very dependent on how long you have been farming as to your view on how you are going to proceed and how you are going to look at the future.

We are in a situation where I think farmers are trying to make as many adaptations in their operations as they can. I remarked to my wife as we drove to Winnipeg last weekend that, as we drove from our farm to Winnipeg, Manitoba is certainly becoming a very diversified province.

I think a good deal of that is the entrepreneurship of our industry, and a good deal of that I think is also owed to our fine universities and schools that we have and an education process that is ongoing in Manitoba for the kinds of manage ment needs that we need to continue to supply our young farmers with and some of the not-so young who have been there awhile who are continually upgrading their skills in the farming community. I would like to say, Mr.

Chairman, that I think it is incumbent upon us to look at some of these regions, and I guess I would say that it is not just in special crops and com and sunflowers that are growing profusely out there in this heat and with the little bit of moisture that they are getting, some regions doing better than others, but it is in the area of fence posts as well.

When I look at the number of fence posts that are growing in my region, being pounded in the ground and having wire attached to them, and look at the cattle operations that are growing right up into the minister's own home region, there is a lot of change taking place. That has created a lot of dissension in some people's lives. I know some of that has been on the minister's doorstep at different times, as well as my own, and we elected officials are here to try to deal with those as best we can.

I want to not be as critical this morning as perhaps as putting forth a voice of concern for, as these people have tried to do what would seem to be the right thing and change their oper ations into the kinds of liv estock operations that we are seeing, whether it is in hogs or whether it is in, as I just mentioned particularly, in cow-calf operations, not even feeder operations as much but certainly in cow-calf.

We may have got the fence posts ahead of some of the other needs that we have, but it is the immediate reaction that farmers make if they are changing those operations, and, of course, they are finding themselves in a circumstance right now, as I pointed out yesterday, where

July 18 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3489 there are some shortages of water in our region, not to mention the fact that some of the pastures are in a pretty desperate state as well. Last week, I had the opportunity, as I drive back and forth on No. 1 and in some of the areas off of No. 1- I do not like to stick to that road all the time. You get used to seeing the same thing, as the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Caldwell) just pointed out. We travel the same highway going back and forth, and I like to go No. 2 as much as I can as well and get off the pavement onto some of the gravel roads.

That is where you certainly get a first-hand view of a lot of the changes that are taking place. I do that as much as possible, and I can only say that we have got a tremendous beginning. I would like to put it in that tenn in regard to the expansion of irrigation in Manitoba because that is certainly a plus for industry. I guess I would say it involves higher risk and perhaps a different degree of management than some of us have been used to as farmers over the years. It is certainly an opportunity for Manitoba because with that comes a higher value product in most cases as well.

That is not necessarily always in potatoes or in com that we are irrigating or in winter wheat and some of those crops, but as much as the forage expansion and the alfalfa that we are seeing raised in Manitoba and the grasses that are there, we are quite quickly developing a very highly valued export industry around forages. The quality of that product is becoming known North American-wide as well as inter national ly, with some of the forage that is being exported into other areas in the form of pellets and cubes.

I think those are good moves as well. * (10: 20) As we move forward with areas of water and water resources, as with humans, all of these other areas that we are trying to look at in agriculture and expand need water.

That is a key platform in any kind of development or any kind of business plan, and I would say that while we have done some things in bringing natural gas to some communities, I know that there are muni cipalities, my own being one of them, now send ing out questionnaires to look at, even oppor tunities to bring water into rural areas, pipeline kind of basis, and I could perhaps ask the mtmster if she is aware of what support the Government has put forward, not so much in the area of what I was asking yesterday with PFRA and their programs as far as pumping water in the dugouts, but what kind of programs, if any, she has been able to work with in municipalities on as far as making waterfication, if you will, available in R.M.s to rural residents?

Ms. Wowchuk: The member raises an important issue when we talk about the importance of water. Every family, every community needs water, and without it, it makes it very difficult, whether it is to have a livestock herd or a healthy community or a good crop. All of those things are dependent on water. The member talked about the water line expansion into communities. I believe that that is what the member was referring to, and that would be an issue that falls under the Water Services Board and under Inter governmental Affairs.

I know that there is work being done, but I would suggest that that might be in that department that the member could get a little bit more information on the Water Services Board's expansion. With respect to irrigation, which is also very important, particularly with the expansion of the potato industry in Manitoba, I want the member to know that we continue to run our irrigation program despite the fact that the federal govern ment is not putting in money now.

We are working with the federal government to negoti ate a new agreement and get some funds from the federal government so that we can have an expanded irrigation program. But our money is there and staff continues to work with the vari ous groups that are looking at irrigation expan sion. Mr. Maguire: I am certainly aware of the fine work I think that the minister has done in regard to trying to bring some greater awareness to the irrigation circumstances, and I was not speaking so much of pipeline water to communities.

I was just asking the minister whether through Agri culture, as I certainly will be asking the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) some questions around this area, as well, but has she had any requests from rural municipalities through Agriculture for her department to sup port water being pipelined from the communities out to rural residents?

3490 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 2002 Ms. Wowchuk: Again, the member raises an issue, one that we take very seriously, and that is why we have put together a drought committee, and the Water Services Board is on that com mittee. So should there be requests about mov ing water from a municipal well into another area, they would be referred to the Water Ser vices Board and then arrangements would be made. PFRA is also involved in the committee.

But when there is a shortage of water, we also work with the people to try to find a source of water close by so that there is not the need to pump long distances. I guess some of the things that the member is talking about are long-term solutions and right now it is looking at short-term solutions and how can we make use of wells that are in the area. I know that in my area, in my community in fact there is a community well and that water is available there and many producers are coming with trucks to that well and hauling water for their li vestock.

I think those similar kinds of wells are available in many parts of the province, and those are the things that are going to work in the short term. But the department, and the people involved in the drought committee, work to try to co-ordinate that so that we can make use of the water that is available in an area. Then we have to look at lon g-term solutions for water supply and those are the things that rural municipalities plan with their councils.

There is an example in Swan River right now where there is a water treatment plant being built and plans are being put in place to distribute that water into-there are pla ns made with other municipalities to try to get water out to some of the other areas. So there is that kind of work being done by the municipalities. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's response.

I believe there is also a similar project going on in Wallace, between Wallace and Virden, in looking at expanding their water services in the community of Virden and perhaps going beyond the town limits in regard to some distribution of water there as well. I know there is a vast difference between trying to take on something that would put water into residences, as I asked the minister, as opposed to providing water to a farm site that could be used for not only potable water in homes and drinking water, but water for live stock because that is of course the larger user of the volumes that would be involved.

So it is a vastly different request if it is on that basis. I would assume that for municipalities that are looking at this, they have a water source and they would obviously be looking at the kinds of expansion of water that would be going into livestock operations at the same time as they were going to lay the pipe to do the job. Might as well be looking at that as well. I know there are some municipalities looking at that.

I just want to go back to my earlier comments about the kinds of change in farm structure that we are seeing in western Manitoba today particularly, and all of Manitoba is adapt ing as the Prairies are from that result of the '95 action of the federal government. But I think that I could make a comment that the federal package that is coming out today is a day late and a dollar short from the kinds of change that took place.

The change is ongoing, but there were very little doll ars there for the farmers to make that adjust ment from the federal government initiative at that point. * (10 :30) Seven years have gone by since that change and now they are coming around to looking at using some of what I consider western Canada's doll ars to be utiliz ed in some of the programs they are looking at through the Agricultural Policy Framework. I guess better now than never is another analogy that might be a phrase that is maybe applicable to today's situation as well.

I guess the response that I see of the farmers in that area was to not only go from the special crops that I have pointed out, but there are soybeans being grown in western Manitoba as well now. Manitoba has a record acreage of soybeans this year, as you are aware. In a num ber of cases they are certainly coming through this flooded situation in this southern area of Winnipeg here to the U.S. border and east in better condition than some of the other bean crops and types that are in the edible bean area. I think obviously that they are a fairly hardy crop

July 18 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 349 1 and we will have to continue to look at those as far as development. As far as going back to the livestock expansion that was taking place in western Man itoba, my reference to the girl with the fence post, in pastures in the cow-calf industry, while the request was made for either some kind of a program for hauling water, piping water, or deferral of taxation on the sale of cow herds, I did not get a request from this particular individ ual for movement of cattle to other areas for pasture or for supplemental support in the area of pasture development.

I am wondering if the minister has con sidered that kind of action at all in their pro grams, or if in fact they have looked at, as I think was put in place at one time, a support program for greenfeed supplies in those areas. Obviously if they do not have pasture right now, they may be able to cut some of their own cereals for winter feed, if that was the case. I guess I would have to say that that might be a little bit longer term request. But if these people were able to get to that point of freeze-up with some kind of program for pasture, I wonder if that has been considered. The Acting Chair person (Mr.

Jim Rondeau): The Member for Arthur-Virde n, just to finish his question. Do you want to finish your question, sir? No? Okay. Ms. Wowchuk: Again, I would tell the member this is an issue that is under discussion and one the department is working through. There are several options to improve the hay supply. We will share with the member a few of them. There are wildlif e management areas and land con trolled by Ducks Unlimited where there is land that could be harvested for hay.

In fact Ducks Unlimited has made an offer, but my under standing is no one has taken them up on their offer to cut hay in the areas Ducks Unlimited control. The other area is through crop insurance. There is the opportunity, should there be a stand of light crop, there is ability to have an early adjustment through crop insurance in order to harvest that crop and put it up as greenfeed. As well, the department has in the past and will this fall assess the situation. If there is a need to ammoniate straw to make it a better quality of feed then the department will work with pro ducers in that area as well.

So there are a few options. I think one of the other things that is a concern is the fact that the situation in Alberta is much more desperate and we are going to see people from Alberta looking to buy hay from Manitoba. We know a lot of hay this last winter went to Alberta. That demand for hay in another province is going to drive the price up and that is going to put pressure on our producers, or on the hay supply in this province. The other issue is there is livestock from Alberta coming into Manitoba now and people trying to keep their herds going. That is taking up some of the hay supply.

So there are a few options that can be looked at to ensure there is a feed supply. One of the ones is the land that is controlled in management areas, which are nor mally lower areas and may have a better supply than some of the higher land that is in agriculture production now. Mr. Maguire: I appreciate that. There certainly is a number of thousands of head of livestock, cattle particularly, coming in from Alberta, as there is on the eastern side of Saskatchewan in some areas.

They are not a whole lot better off moisture-wise on the eastern side and the central portion of Saskatchewan, of course, than Alber ta. In light of the fact everyone thinks the south em Prairies are awash with water from Leth bridge to Emerson or Kenora, it is a bit difficult to be asking these questions in regard to water support in the southwest part of Manitoba, again, in some ofthose areas. It is not all regions of the constituency I represent or the neighbouring ones around us, but there certainly are pockets in those areas that are of great concern.

On a pretty widespread basis, when you look at the overall moisture from last July to now, it is still very much below normal in all of that area, even though there has been some significant sharp rainfalls in loca tions. It still has not really been enough to create enough runoff to get into the waterways to fill dugouts, even though it has raised the Souris River a couple of inches, as opposed to the feet

3492 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2002 that have been raised here in the Red and the eastern Assiniboine, obviously, as well. I guess I know these are short-term requests and short-term needs that are there. The minister has said that a long -term approach is needed. I know that is obviously part of the federal gov ernment's plan or objectives in what they are doing with the Agricult ural Policy Framework is to try to create some better management oppor tunities for our fanners in Canada, not just our regton.

I am wondering if the minister can enlig hten me as to her thoughts and views of how some of those programs they are talking about in the Agricultural Policy Framework, what she would like to see in them, I guess. What would flow out of some of those, or, first of all, maybe it would be fair to ask where she thinks the federal gov ernment is going with, with some of those activities? * (10: 40) Ms. Wowchuk: The member talks about where the federal government is going on the Agri cultural Policy Framework agreement.

I want to tell the member the Agricultural Policy Frame work is a joint effort between the provinces and the federal government. When we first started to talk about this Agri cultural Policy Framework, I really looked at it as Ottawa trying to catch up in many of the areas where they had dropped off and provinces had continued. The federal government recognized that provinces were doing some very good work, but it was not the same kind of things that were being done across the provinces. That was really my first reaction when we first started to talk about this Agricult ural Policy Framework.

As I said, we are doing some of these things. We are doing these things in Mani toba. The federal government wants to come in and be part of it. That is a good thing, because the federal government, they took a lot of money out of agriculture under the guise of meeting the requirements of the WTO. They took, at the highest point, over $2 billion annual ly out of agriculture. We know the hardest impact of that was on the Prairies. Now they are going to start putting that money back in but they are going to distribute it across the whole country.

So they are putting some money back, and we are cer tainly happy they are putting that money back in. When you look at the Agricultural Policy Framework the most important component of it is the risk management section. That is a very important tool for our producers. It was for me one of the most important pilla rs of the Agri cultural Policy Framework because, as I said, if we do not have a safety net, a risk management component of the framework then the other ones are not nearly as important. A lot of work has gone into the risk management component. There have been many scenarios.

One of the things we asked for when we started this process was a review of the safety net programs to see which ones were working. We also asked for a review of the funding formula. So there have been different announce ments, issues that have been floated. Mr. Chairman, one of them, for example, is that we know in December the federal minister, without talking to provincial ministers, an nounced through one of the media there was not going to be any more crop insurance, there was not going to be any more NISA, and there was going to be an enhanced CFIP program. Well, producers reacted to that.

Since then, there have been other scenarios that have been floated out. They have changed. We had one where it was going to be we were going to have crop insurance, then all of the money from NISA was going to flip into CFIP. There have just been a variety of things. Producers and provinces have continued to pursue this, pursue flexibil ity in programming. The last one we had from the federal govern ment was it was only going to be enhanced crop insurance and NISA. We still do not know what those enhancements are.

That is something we have to watch very closely, because what are useful enhancements in Ontario may not be use ful enhancements in Manitoba. So we have to work very carefully on that one. The concern was there was going to be restriction to those two programs. So we have

July 18 , 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3493 worked and we now, at the last ministers' meeting, got a change to the framework agree ment that says all programs we have will be a basis to look at what we use to develop the new safety net program. The other issues under the framework agree ment are also very important. There is food safe ty. Our producers I think have been leaders in food safety. If you look at what some of our organizations have been doing, say, with the cattle producers with their ear tagging for traceability, the work that has been done under HACCP by various commodity groups.

There is traceability. It is work that producer groups have been doing and that provinces have been involved in. Certainly, the environmental issues are very, very important. One of the things that fits under that is the work that we have done on covering new ground through the Tyrchniewicz report on how we can have a livestock industry grow but still have sustainability and address environ mental issues.

As a department, we have the Agricultural Sustainability Initiative covering new ground, programs that were there that the federal government was part of but then pulled their money out, and the province continued on in it. Now the federal government is coming back in with some money. Again, they took it away, and now they are looking at ways that they can bring some of it back in. Those are important issues. Renewal, certainly we recognize in Mani toba that renewal is a very important issue. We have to get the next generation of farmers in this province or else we are going to have some very serious problems.

Our program, Bridging Gener ations, is one of those programs that fits under renewal . Again, the Province of Manitoba recog nized this and went ahead and did it without federal participation. Now this program fits under the umbrella of the Agricultural Policy Framework for across Canada. * (10: 50) Science and innovation, certainly research is very important, and technology is very impor tant. This is a new pillar. I know that a program that was important to the previous minister was the ARDI program because it allowed for money for research.

I believe, under this science and innovation pillar of the Agricultural Policy Framework, we will be able to continue with that kind of program. As agriculture changes and becomes more diversified, the member talked about how diversified rural Manitoba was, we have to have research. I very much support seeing some public research and public dollars going into research that is available to all people of Manitoba. I think those will fit there. When you look at what happened with the reduction in support for agriculture by the federal government, Manitoba was the biggest loser.

Manitoba lost more with the elimination of the Crow than all the provinces east of Manitoba combined together. We want a fair share back for Manitoba. Although a lot of money came out of Manitoba, I am not sure how, when you take things away and then start to bring them back, · but distributed across the country, the amount that we gain in this province compared to what we lost will be less than what other provinces will gain.

I am pleased with the things that are under the Agricultural Policy Framework agree ment because I think they are all important to build a healthy agriculture industry, and they are all important for the sustainability of the industry in the long term. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, just to set the record straight, I think the minister, maybe she could correct this, just indicated that Manitoba lost more from the loss of the Crow than all the other provinces to the east of us. They did not lose anything because there was no Crow in eastern Canada. I would just like to point that out.

I know that these programs that the minister has referred to are part of this package, and it is a five-year package. It probably will not be imple mented until next year. There is some bridging money in place, and I guess we are looking at some short-term needs in different areas of the province, as I have pointed out. You know, we were referencing earlier the fact that there are Alberta cattle coming to Mani toba. I would say there are thousands of cows in Manitoba, it has been indicated, that have come to Manitoba because the people with pasture

3494 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2002 here felt that they had a sustainable enough growth that they could take on some extra cattle for a year in a desperate situation from our neighbours to the west in both provinces, Sas katchewan and Alberta, but particularly from Alberta it seems at this time. I know there are Alber tans even looking at coming to Manitoba, and particularly eastern Saskatchewan, and pur chasing land to expand their own farms and moving. Those are just opportunities for some, and sort of forced circumstances on others.

Our PMU industry is valuable in regard to making sure we have enough pasture for it as well and enough water resources for that indus try to continue. So I raise the fact that while there may be some glorious opportunities to move and sell hay into Alberta yet, there are still opportunities right here in Manitoba. I guess we will not completely halt the export of the demand locally for all of the product that there is.

In the areas of alf alfa, particularly, just like in the wheat industry, we have established indus tries or established markets that will take those export products, and we must continue to meet those as much as we can. Another story to the minister, just for her edification as well, and I know she is in touch with the other ministers across Canada; but in Alberta, basically in the Cal gary to Red Deer corridor, even as of yesterday there was wheat estimated at eight bushels an acre by crop insur ance and written off at this point, and it is heading out in the eight to nine inches high area.

This crop was written off as a crop that might go eight or nine bushels an acre, and these people are looking at putting their cattle on it as quickly as they can.

I guess if there was any kind of circum stance in Manitoba that-I know normal crop insurance procedures will take place in our area if there are pastures in those circumstances, but if crops have a secondary use, if there are some that are in that great a stress in Manitoba, we need to look at those kinds of support programs and move quickly with a crop insurance settle ment so that we can allow the farmers to utilize those crops as either green crops or pasture as quickly as we can. I wonder if the minister could just indicate where they would be at with that. Ms.

Wowchuk: Just to correct, on the comment that the member made about no loss of the Crow, what I was referring to was not only the Crow but the loss in total federal support, safety net support. There were losses in eastern Canada in the safety net package, but Manitoba's losses were higher than all of the provinces east of us, and that was in the range of $350 million annu ally that we are losing. So the losses in Manitoba were far more significant than they were in east ern Canada. With respect to the crop insurance and the ability there to make similar arrangements, that is exactly what can happen.

If there are light stands and people want to turn their cattle out to them, they can call crop insurance, an adjuster will come out and do the assessment on the crop and then the farmer will have the ability to use it whatever way he feels suitable. I can tell the member there are lots of adjusters out, if farmers make the call. Those adjusters are not working very hard right now and the farmer would not have to wait very long to have the adjustment made and allow him to proceed with changing that over into a pasture or for greenfeed. So those tools are there, as they are in other areas.

The member talks about Alberta. I am very familiar with what is happening in the Edmonton area. There are a lot of liv estock that are going to market right now because there is just no feed supply there and it is a pretty desperate situation there. My hope is that in a couple of days this heat is going to turn and we are going to have a good thunderstorm and maybe a little bit of moisture that will help all of us. Mr. Maguire: Certainly, I guess my question was more around expediency.

I know the crop insurance department will be working and cor porations will be working as quickly as they can to try to appease the needs of the farmers in those areas. No doubt about that. I know they do an excellent job. I guess, just in a

summary, the minister has indicated there is a drought committee in place but we do not have a drought program that we are looking at, at this point. Ms. Wowchuk: The drought committee is work ing. Where there is need to make arrangements for feed supply, if there is a shortage of feed,

July 18, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3495 there has always been a list of feed and things like that that happen. Where there is need for water, as we had discussed earlier, the depart ment works with people who are looking for ways to move water. Those things are in place. There have also been arrangements made and identification of lands in management areas where there is hay available, but there has been no call on that hay at this point. There is a drought committee working and the committee continues to monitor the situation as time proceeds. That is the work that is being done now. Mr.

Maguire: But there is no program in place right now. * (1 1:00) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, the drought committee is co-ordinating a lot of activities that take place within various departments and making services available for producers, but if the member is asking is there a new initiative, is there a new program, no, there is no new pro gram. Mr. Maguire: Okay. I know the mm1ster is aware of the circumstance, cattle coming into Canada and Manitoba, needing our pastures as much as we can and trying to do what we can in balancing that export industry.

I guess I had a few questions this morning around the water issues in Manitoba, trying to provide water to some rural communities as well as rural households and farm needs. Some areas will go ahead with those kinds of programs, from my understanding. Some will do it in part nership with the provincial government and they will do what they can in Intergovernmental Affairs and Water Resources to do it on their own in those areas. I know the federal government has this Agricultural Policy Framework in place and they are putting money into it.

The 589 million the federal government has come up with for a num ber of the other areas they have outside of some of the five pilla rs they are working on might seem like a fairly large number to some people, but spread over five years it is not a lot of money when you take a look at the fact, as the minister has indicated, that she feels strongly the risk management pillar is the most important pillar.

Certainly, I have indicated, I think, our uni versity, our education, our training facilities and that sort of thing are top-notch in regard to the kind of training that is provided, and I would never question that risk management is an important area, but Ottawa seems to think the environment is the important area. At least that is where they gave the most money out of that $589.5 million. They put up $264.5 million1 and spread over five years across all of Canada, $50 million a year does not go very far to do very much in regard to meeting the needs of our environmental needs.

Of course, I understand full well that here in Manitoba we have the toughest guidelines in particularly manure management of anywhere in North America. We have a lot of responsible actions being taken by farm groups and farm organizations and farmers individually across this province.

So, if they are looking at these kinds of dolla rs as what they see as the highest priority, then I would put forth that perhaps that is com ing as well from-it is not just from the farm community in wanting to have an opportunity to farm but from the consumers of the country saying you have to do a better job in convincing us that everything that you are producing on those farms today is of top quality, and I think that that is, you know, coming from a society and I am including farmers in that-that pays very low prices for food on a scale of the dispos able income that we have in the world today, in Canada particularly, that this is something that the federal government has just latched onto and said we are going to do something, but they do not know what they are going to do yet.

I think you have indicated that, as far as where they are at with some of the other pillars, and that is the flexibility that you are saying is the reason that you did not sign onto the pro gram. But when I look at the support that we are looking at in agriculture in Manitoba-and I am not going to get into the differences between our provinces, but Alberta has just indicated that they are one of the provinces that has signed

3496 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18 , 2002 onto the Agricultural Policy Framework, and yesterday they announced I think it is a $324- million program for drought assistance in the province of Alberta. It leaves me, as I have already had a few calls from farmers in Mani toba this morning, about where we would be in regard to the kind of support that would be required.

While it is of a natural disaster proportion, a good deal of that is in flooding in Manitoba, and we have had some questions of the minister on that in the southern and eastern regions of the province where our hay lands have been washed out, where some of the crops have been under water for so long that they will not amount to much either and, in particular, drowned-out areas of the southern and southeastern parts of the province where, in fact, crops have been completely lost. All of the inputs were in them, and I know that we have had a discussion on that around Crop Insurance's responsibility in that.

But how does the minister respond to the fact that we have such a wide variance in provin cial governments and their support for agri culture in the areas of Canada that have been shown? We know that the drought in Alberta has been ongoing. It has been two or three years old. But here you have a province that is absolutely dedicated to its farmers and absolutely has the backing of its consumers because they are all aware, as Manitoba consumers, I believe, are aware, of the importance of agriculture to the provincial economy of that province.

So where does that leave Manitoba farmers at in this whole equation if Alberta's government is going to support them in not only the Agricul tural Policy Framework but with another assist ance program of $324 million of new money over and above the kinds of programs that we have in crop insurance as well? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, the member refers to Alberta, comparing Alberta to what is happening in Manitoba. There are a couple of things. I think the situation in Alberta is much more serious than it is in Manitoba as far as the drought goes, and I hope that we do not get to that situation.

They are pretty desperate there when you look at the amount of rain they had over the last couple of years. Yes, Alberta has put in $324 million. Their industry is about double the size of ours. Alberta has the ability to pay. Alberta has a strong oil industry and they have the money. Manitoba does not have that kind of money and if we got into that kind of situation it would be a real problem for us. The member knows what the economic situation is in Manitoba.

It has not changed that much, but if we get into that kind of drought situation it would be devastating for the province and the Province, Manitoba could not put in the kinds of dollars that Alberta has. When you compare the two areas, when you compare what we have in Manitoba, I do not want to say that the situation is not serious in Manitoba. We are short of water. We have less moisture than is our normal level in parts of the province. We have another part of the province that has too much moisture, that has been getting too much moisture over the years.

My hope is that we can get through this, that the moisture will come, because we do not have the dollars that Alberta has. * (1 1 :10 ) Now the member talked about Manitoba farmers being at a loss because we did not sign the Agricultural Policy Framework agreement. I made it very clea r to the member yesterday that the Agricultural Policy Framework agreement is the plan for our programs for next year. Our safety net programs for this year are in place. We have crop insurance, we have NISA, we have CFIP . So those programs are there for our pro ducers.

The Agricultural Policy Framework is developing the programs for next

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-67a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 67a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	96bc0f3e079b42ff1f4f0d48d39c4077012a1557

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