Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 87 (27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-87

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'c lock, Monda y, May 3rd, 1965. Opening Prayer by Madam Speak er. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Rece iving Petitions Presenting Reports by St anding and Special Committees Introduction of Bills. 2207 HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Educa tion) (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 138,

an Act to incorporate The Man itoba Associa tion of School Trustee s. MADAM SPEAKER Committee of the Whole Hou se. The Honourab le the Provincial Sec retary. HON. MAIT LAND B. STEINKOPF, Q. C. (Provincial Sec retary) (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs ,that Madam Speaker do now leave the Cha ir and the House resolve itsel f into Committee of the Whole to consider resolutions st anding on the Order Pape r.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote decl a red the motion car ried and the House resolved itself into Committee of the Whole wi th the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. CO MMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. STEINKOPF: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutena nt-Governor ha ving been in formed of the subject matter of the proposed reso lutions rec ommends them to the Hou se . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The first reso lution before the comm ittee is as fol lows: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a mea sure respecting payment from and out of the Consolida ted Fund of retirement allowances to members of the Legislat ive Assembly and Ministers of the Crown upon their cea sing to be Members or Ministers of the Crown. MR . STEINKOPF: Mr. Chairman , at the pres ent time all provinces except Ma .1itoba and Prince Edward Island rec ognize the long-time service of members and ministers by provision of a retirement allo wance or pension. This is also the case in the Government of Ca nada.

This bi ll wi ll, if passed, remedy the deficien cy by providing a retirement allo wanc e for Members of the Legis lature, Ministers, the Leader of the Oppositi on, and the Speak er, wh ere sufficien t contributing service provides entit lement. I do not think any lengthy justif ica tion is required to pers uade honourable members of the need for this legisl ation. The demands of this sess ion I am sure wi ll bring home to all who labour here the need for this type of legisl ation.

The demands are not even limited to the actual period of the sitting of the Legisl ature , but extend over most of the days of the year . In itself, this is not a justification for the acceptance of publi c service as a recognition of that accepta nce , merely all members to be fully effective in their priva te endeavours or employment wh ere their time is so taken up wi th their public dutie s. With his own ability to provide for himself and his family in his retirement period thus infringed upon, the public responsibility I think becomes pretty cl ear.

This is the wi dely and generally accepted just ifica tion for retirement allowa nces . The situa tion of course is considerably more serious for members of the Cabinet who must devote a greater time or greater part of their time to public affa irs and div orce themselves from their priva te means of livelihood. It is true in degree also to the position of the Leader of the Opposition and the Speak er.

Here not only is the abi lity to conduct priva te affai rs affected on a year-round bas is, but the often lengthy departure from what could be called civil or private life generally results in a difficult period of rea dju stment whe n the term of office is ended. All of us know of examples of such a situation. The government believes that in common wi th nearly all other gove rnments in Ca nada , we should rec ognize and at temp t in some measure to adjust this situa ti on.

As I said, the hill follows in general terms the approach adopt ed elsewhe re in Canada, althoug h the benefits are somew hat less generous than some . The bill is divided into two part s.

Part I provides for an allowance on retirement of all Members of the Legis lative Assembly who have served not less than eight sessions for whi ch full indemnity has been pa id. This would not normally inc lude special ses sions . Each member is required, if he wi shes to qualify, and this is his own cho ice, to contribute six percent of his indemnity in ea ch eligible session. For the purposes of this Act , indemnity is defined as in The Legisl ative Assembly Act and exclusive al lowanc es for expens es, et c.

2208 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. STEINKOPF cont'd) . , ..

Part II of the Act deals wi th the retirement allowances for Minist ers , the Lea der of the Opposition and the Speak er. Thi s al lowance is calcu lated apart from the al lowanc e to whi ch they would contribute as members of the House. It provides for an allowance whe re the re has been service as a Minister, Leader of the Opposition or Speaker, in eight se ssions , simila r to that in

Part I. Here also a contribution of six percent of sala ry is required in ea ch case. The annual retirement allowance under both parts of the bill is calcu lated in exactl y the sa me man ner. It is based on three percent of the av erage indemnity or salary, as the case may be, on whi ch con tributions have been pa id. In no case may an allo wanc e under eit her

Part I or Pa rt II exceed 70 percent of the av era ge indemnity or sa lary. Members or Ministers and others under

Part II, who are serving as such at the time the Act comes into force, may elect to con tribute with respect to past service and count such service for allowance purpos es. The re are a number of othe r conditions in the bill wh ich I think are se lf-explanatory . I ha ve refrained from any detailed discuss ion now but wi ll be prepared to offer further deta iled information at the committee stage as the bill at that time wi ll be av ai lable to all members for their perusal.

We must also recogn ize , as others ha ve , that due to the uncerta inty of con tributory periods and the small number of persons involved, the pla n ca nnot be placed on an actuarial bas is. Contributions wi ll be paid into the Consolidated Fund and payment of allowances made the refrom. It is not expected the cost to the Crown wi ll be significa nt over the long run if experience elsew here is a criterion. I understand that the bill has been printed and I hope that it wi ll be dist ributed this even ing for those to have a good chance to take a look at it before the bill comes up for sec ond read ing. MR.

DOUG LAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakesid e): Mr. Chairman, this is the st age with regard to money bills wh ere a reso lution is introduced using the term "it is exped ient to bring in" such and such a measure . As I understa nd parlia menta ry procedure , it is general that the discuss ion is limited at this sta ge, properly, to the question of wh ether it is expedient to bring in such a bi ll.

I do not intend to spend any length of time at this st age - I expe ct to have more to sa y later on wh en the bill is printed - but I would just like to record my opinion that it is not ex pedient to bring in such a bill for the Province of Manitob a. The Minister has dealt wi th his minist erial explanati on a little more fully than is usual on the introduc tion of a money bill and I think that 's desirable in this case so that we have some idea of what is proposed.

I do not intend to go into the matter at deta il but I would sa y this in general, that it seems to me that members of provincial Legislatures, inc luding Cabinet Min ist ers , have had to date a wrong approach to this subject. They seem to insist on considering their position as a full-time job. Now it seems that there could be a good argument put forward the se times to consider the federal sphere of parliamentary activity as coming very cl ose to a full- time job in recent years , but this is not the case in my opinion so far as the Legisla tive Assemblies are concerned.

We have had a longer ses sion up to date this year than we usually have and we still are just a liitle over two months and ten da ys or thereabouts - I wo uld think not greatly over fifty sitting da ys - and it seems to me , and I have alwa ys been of this opinion, that by no st retch of imag ina tion ca n this be co nsidered so far as private members are co ncerned to be a full-t ime job . It seems to me also that the idea of a pension is a pension for somebody wh ose job is full-t ime . That 's the real justification as I see it for a pension.

Now it might be argue d that so far as the Cabinet Ministers are concerned that they have a full-time job. Well whi le they're in office this is true , but I cert ainly harb our the feeling, insofar as this group of Cab inet Min ist ers is concerned, they ha ven't a long-term job. They probabl y ha ve a full-time one whi le they're here , but I do not expect to see any long tenure of office for them. So on that basis as we ll, though I admi t that it's full-t ime or should be whi le they are in office , I do not consider that they have the nece ssa ry tenure of office to qualify under that definition either.

So as far as I am co ncerned, Mr . Chairman, I do not think it's expedie nt to bring in such a bilL I'll have more to sa y when it comes in. MR. CHAffiMAN: The seco nd reso lution before the Committee is: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Educ ati on Department Act and The Public Schools Act by providing, among other matt ers , for making grants from and out of the Consolidated Fund to the Mani tob a Associa tion of School Trust ees . MR. JOHNSON : Mr .

Chairman, by way of explana tion of this bi ll coming in at this time in the Sessio n, the reason is that as most members hav e been read ing or may be awa re, the

Ma y 3rd , 1965 2209 (MR. JOHNSON cont' d. ) .. ... Manitob a School Trustees Assoc iation and the urban School Tr ustees Assoc iation hopef ully will amalgamate at a convention planned in June , and should they realize their desi res and the amalgamation is effected , they wo uld like to have the neces sa ry legislation to permit them to form the new assoc iation wh ich would be given the name "T he Manitob a Associa tion of School Truste es.

" The rea son this bill is before the Committee is that it has been the practice for the government to give a grant to ea ch one of these organizations which exists now, and legisla tion will be brought before you with the amendments changing the references to the present organ izations in both the se Acts and setting up the nece ssa ry machinery so that these people will be rea dy to go following their founding convention. The bill would come in on proc lamation .

It's put before you. at this time because this involves a grant to the new Assoc iation to rep lace the presen t grants wh ich they are now rece iving. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste . Rose): I wond er if the Minister coul d indic ate wh at the present grants are to the two assoc iatio ns, and whe ther whe n the new as soc iation is formed it will simply be the sa me grant presen tly for the two bu lked· for the one, or does he intend to increase the grant ? MR.

JOHN SO N: At the prese nt time the Manitoba School Tr ustees Assoc iation is receiv ing a grant of $5, 000; the Urban Tr ustees Associa tion a grant of $2 ,5 00. It is proposed to st ate in the bilL that they shall rece ive such a grant as may be de termined by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Co unc il, and for the information of the Committee , the government has assured the founding grant of $10 ,000 per year. MR. MOLGAT: It will mean an increase of $2, 500 over the pres ent grants that are given the two associations .

Is this an incentive that my honourable friend is us ing to promote the amalgamation of the two assoc iations ? MR. JOHN SO N: ........•........... Mr . Chairman , alwa ys looking for that happy bala nce betw een that wh ich is desi ra ble and that wh ich is possi ble and pra ctical. MR. MOLGAT: This is what might be termed a "ca rrot ". Would that be fair ? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The next resol ution before the committee is : Resolved that it is ex pedient to bring in a measure to author ize the Minister of Mines and Natur al Resources, for and on behalf of Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of Manito ba, to transfer cer tain lands be longing to Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of Manito ba, that have been set asi de as a public pa rk to The City of Tr anscona. HON. ST ERLING R. LYON, Q.

C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Garry): This: bill ar ises by virtue of the filing of a pla n of subdivision on cer tain lands in the City of Tr ans:cona, wh ich said lands according to my understa nding at one time stood in the name of the City of Tr anscona, but upon the filing of the plan the lands in question havi ng been des ignated as: a par k area, by virtue of the Sta tute bec ame ve sted in Her Ma jesty the Queen in right of the province.

The City of Tr anscona procee ded , upon the filing of the plan of subd ivision, to attempt to have the land re-zo ned in order to assist the const ruc tion of an elder ly persons' housing unit on a portion of this land that wa s formerly municipal land . It was only whe n they we re reasonably we ll ad vanced into their hear ings that they di sco vered that by virtue of the filing of the pla n the land really was no longer the irs; it be longed to the Crown.

The City has reques ted that the Crown now go through the procedure of actuall y transferring the pla n back to the City in order that they may proceed with their plan. I should mention that the bill whe n it is before you will also have a sec tion in it wh ich wi ll deal with the Municipal Board, that is with all of the hea rings that have thus fa r transpired before the Municipal Boa rd being valid ated in order that the hearing that was once st arted by the City may continue and be terminated wit hout the st arting ab initio to have the wh ole matter over .

I'm told by tho se connected with the matter in the City of Transcona that there is some urgency with respect to this matter and they have request ed that the hear ings that thus fa r have taken place be validated and confirmed without of cou rse in any way prejudici ng the Municipal Boa rd as to wh at its final decis ion will be . Th ere ha s been some objection in the City of Tr anscona by private ci tizens to this re zoning but that is a matter that ca n be discusse d further on sec ond rea ding of the bill.

I would co mmend the bill to the House beca use really it in esse nce gives back to the City wh at wa s really theirs but was vest ed into the name of the Crown by virtue of the act of the pla n of sub division.

2210 May 3rd, 1965 MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democra tic Party) (Radisson) : Mr. Chair man, if. I will be permit ted just to sa y a word or two in connection with this , some members may won der why it is that the Honourable Member of the Membe r from Tran sco na-Radisson didn't introduce a bill in connection wi th this . I might sa y that originally the re was a bill pre pared that it was thought that I might be able to or attempt to pilot through the House.

How ever, whe n the Legisla tive Counsel investigated fully into the matte r, it was disc overed that the only way in wh ich this coul d be processed was by virtue of an Address from His Honour and that is the reason that my friend the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resource s , apart from being conce rned with parks , is introduci ng this by way of resolution. The Minister didn't mention the organization, Mr. Chairman , that is anxious to develop the sen ior ci tizens home .

It is the Kiwanis Club of Tran sco na and I'm sure honourable mem bers in this House will be fu lly aware of the various communal activiti es that the Kiwanis Club have taken

part in. They have senior ci tizens homes in many of the area s in the Greate r Winnipeg area and I believe, Mr. Chairman, elsewhere as we ll. One of the reasons for the bill is, as the Minister sug gests , we are anxious in Tran scona, the Kiwanis Club and the City itself, to get cr acking - to use that phras e - on the co nstruct ion of this much needed instal lation in the City, and I join with the Minister in commending it to the members of this House. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman , I don't know whethe r I unders tand correctly. Is there any monies involved in this transfer here ? MR.

LYON: .. , ..... transfer back from the City itsel f. MR. ELMAN GUTTO RMSUN (St. George): Is it necess ary to introduce it by resolution wh en there is no money involved ? MR. LYON: It's the value of the land that's involved that necess itates the resolution. MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains ): Mr . Chairman , I have no objec tion to the resolution but I'm just cur ious to know how it is that the City of Tran sco na was not awar e of the fact that the pla n was filed , or was being filed . Weren't they co nsulted before the pla n was filed ?

If they weren't con su lted , isn't it unusual that they didn't know anything until these people we nt ahead and sta rted buildi ng there and then they found out it wa sn't theirs ? -- (Inter jecti on) -- We ll I unders tood the Honourable Minister to sa y that they had sta rted . And wh ile I'm be ing interrupted here by my seat mate , I'd like to ask him, wh ere was he wh en this was being done ? MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman , I see I've now bec ome involved once again . May I sa y to the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains that no construc tion has taken pla ce.

As I understa nd it, the reason why it was filed this way or how it happened that it became to be filed this way is that in the area to wh ich we are referring at the present time it was - we ll whe n I was Mayor of Transcona we used to figure it was away out in the hinterla nds - and then su bsequentl y it was on a grid plan, the old grid pla n as fa r as lots we re conce rned.

A deve loper ca me in and deve loped , set as ide the are a for a new subdivision so to speak, and it was at that time as I understa nd it tha t this ce rtain portion of this new subdivision of some co nsiderable number of acres - I be lieve it was 20 or 30 acres -w as subdivided under a new plan. And again if memory serves me correctly, there we re seven or eight acres set as ide for park purposes , and at that time the Crown got involved with my fa ir ci ty. I just want to sa y to the Honourable Member for Ethe lbert Pla ins it's no question of expropriation in this insta nce and we at tempting to get it back.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise . Ca ll in the Sp eaker . IN SESSION MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Speaker, the Committee ha s ad opted cert ain reso lutions and instruc ted me to report the same . MR. JAMES CO WAN, �. C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Spea ker, I move , seco nded by the Honourable Membe r for Pembina, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SpE AKER presented the motion and af ter a voice vote de cl a red the motion car- ried . MR. STEINK OPF introduced Bill No. 11 0,

an Act respec ting Payments to Members of the Leg is lative Assembly of Manitob a and Ministers of the Crown upon the ir cea sing to be Members or Ministers of the Crown. MR. JOH NSO� introduced Bill No. 13 9,

an Act to amend The Educa tion Dep artment Act and The Public School s Act.

May 3rd, 196 5 2211 MR. LYON introduced Bill No. 125,

an Act to authorize the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources to tra nsfer cer tain lands to the City of Transcona. MR. GUTTOR MSON: Madam Spea ker, by leave of the House , I would move , sec onded by the Honourable Membe r for St. Boniface , that the name of T. P. Hillhouse be removed from the Statuto ry Orders and Regulations and the name of Gil Molgat be subs titut ed. MADAM: SPEAKER: Where is the motion, please ? MR. GUTTORMSON: Sorry, I just gave it to you verbally. HON.

DUFF ROB LIN (Premier) (Wolse ley): Madam Spe aker, would the House be will ing to accept the verbal motion from the member requesting the subst itution ? MR. PAULLEY: Seeing that it requires leave , we 'll give leave and maybe we 'll be ea ves dropp ers on that committee now that the Honourabl e Leader of the Opposition is a member of it. MADAl\1: SPEAKER put the question and af ter a voice vote decl are d the motion ca rried. MR.

LYON : Madam Spea ker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with , I should like to lay on the Tabl e of the House a Return to an Order of the House No. 25 on the motion of the Honourab le the Leade r of the New Democra tic Party; a Return to an Orde r of the House No . 13 on the motion of the Honourab le Membe r for La Verendrye; a Return to an Address for Pape rs on the motion of the Honourable Membe r for St. George; and a Return to an Orde r of the House No. 51 on the motion of the Honourabl e Member for Brokenhead. ' HON.

GEORGE HUTTON (Min ist er of Agriculture) (Rockwoo d-Therville): Madam Spe aker, before the Orde rs of the Day, I would like to lay on the Table of the House a Return to an Order of the House No. 39 on the motion of the Honourabl e Membe r for Carillon date d March 31, 196 5, and a Return to an Order of the House No. 40 on the motion of the Honourabl e Member for Glads tone voted on March 31. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speak er, before the Orders of the Day if I may, I'd like to ask a ques tion of the Minister of Public utiliti es.

On the 26t h of April, whe n discussi ng his esti mat es, he indicated to the House that the Grand Rapids Generating Station was operating on a more contin uous basis -- or that it had begun operating on a more co ntinuous basis on the 25t h of March and that the No. 2 unit was first synchronized with the sout hern integrate d system on April 15t h . Could he indicate to the House wh ich unit is presently operating and how much powe r it is provid ing to the southern system? MR.

STElN KOPF: Madam Speak er, sometime last we ek on inspection of Unit 1 wh ich was tak en down, there was found to be some adj us tments required. At present that unit is down and is being adjusted and it will be a matte r of we eks before it is back into oper ati on. The sa me thing now is being done to Unit 2 so at the moment there is no production at Grand Rapids . MR. MOLGAT: Did I hear the Minister correctl y , Madam Speake r, say it would be a matte r of S(Jme we eks before it is back in production ? MR. STEIN KO PF: Yes. MR.

GUTTORMSO N: Madam Speake r, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to ask the Mi nister of Mines and Natural Resources if he 's in a pos ition to answ er the quest ion I directed at him at noon toda y ? MR. LYON: I don't have the paper with me. I'll give an answer to my honourable friend tomorrow. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. RUBLIN: Madam Speak er, I beg to move , sec onded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Madam Spe ake r do now leave the Chair and the House reso lve itse lf into a committee to consider of the suppl y to be granted to Her Maje sty.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vot e decl ared the motion ca r ried and the House reso lved itsel f into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Wi nnipeg Centre in the Cha ir. CO MMIT TEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 91. 1 (a) -- MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman , I think there we re still some answ ers to come from the Minist er, we re there not? It seems to me that tlie Honourabl e Membe r for Rhineland has brought up a ques tion regarding a plant in his are a.

There 's a question there of policy , as I underst ood it, as to whe ther the de partm ent's policy was in effect to have de central iza tion of

2212 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. MO LGAT cont' d. ) . . . . industr y or whe ther it was the reverse , if it wa s going to be cen traliza tion of indus try. It appeared to me from his co mments tha t there was a co nflict in government policy between the Department of Indus try and Commerce and the Dep artment of Agricul ture , and I would certa inly like to know exac tly wh at the policy of the government is . HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Mr . Cha ir man, I have no recollection or record of this question having been asked.

The policy of the de partment is de centraliz ation of industry and there 's no con flict wi th the Dep artme nt of Agri cult ure. MR. MOLGAT: As I recall it , Mr.

Chairman , in the course of the discussion there was some indic ation tha t the Department of Agricu lture on the one hand by approving for example the Pota to Mar keting Board and the policies that were set up there , in effect had cen tr alized in the City of Winnipeg a very subs tantial vege tab le op era tion, because where previous ly there was packaging being done out side of the City of Winnipeg and all the work preparatory to pack aging, cl ea ning and so on as for exampl e in the plant indic ated by my honourable friend, and I think the same thing wa s being done in Ca rman, the same thing is being done in Brandon, I think also in Portage la Prairie , whe reas now the policy is that all the packaging must be done in Winnipeg.

Now this is a decision ta ken by the Depa rtment of Agricul ture. My honourabl e friend the Minister of Indust ry and Commerce on the othe r hand has spoken on a number of occa sions about the decent ralization of indus try into othe r are as. Now is there not here a definite con flict of polic y? Is it not cor rect that the Potato Board as it opera tes now doe s in effect mean that where there was emp loyment in a number of pla nts out side of Winnipeg, that this has now been reduced and will be done in Winnipeg? MR. EV ANS: No, there's no conf lict , Mr. Chairman .

Eventua lly, the pla nt must go to its best location. We 're trying to draw as much at tention as we ca n in the Depa rtment of In dustry and Commerce to loca te it outs ide of Winnipeg, but if the best location is found in Win nipeg that 's where the industry goes. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman , this isn' t just a matte r of loca tion. I think if there were no Pota to Mar keting Board, if the plants were simply left to esta blish themselv es where they wish, then the pla nts would in all probabi lity have remained in the locations where they were .

The se have been built up in those are as bec ause of local demand . Now by a decision of the Minister of Agricu lture this has been chang ed. This isn't a question of simply eco nomics insofar as these

part icular plant s are co ncerned. They simply have been told, "You ca n no longer do your own packagin g. " Now for the Minist er to sa y they 'll go wherever ec onomics would bring them, this isn't so. Thi s is on the basis of a government de cision a nd they've been forced to cl ose . I know tha t a number of these pla nts at the moment are very highly co ncerned about their operation. I understa nd that in Bra ndon, in Ca rman and in Port age , there have been some serious ob jecti ons raised to this, Have none of the se object ions come to the Ministe r?

Has there been no consulta tion beforehand between the Minister of Agricul tu re and the Minister of Industry and Commerce ? MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman , the Honourab le Lea der of the Opposition is mixing up rational iza tion of the marketing of a product wi th a policy of de centrali zation of indust ry.

In rational izing the marketing structure for pota to es, it was es sential to define the role of the prod ucer, the whol esa ler, the distributor and the reta iler, and because of the lack of organiza tion of marketing in the past , we had a very irrational deve lopment of marketing machinery and we ende d up with producers in the whol esa ling and even in the retail business.

Now the rationali zation of the marketing of pota toes in Manitoba brought toge ther all of the interes ts in the pot at o industr y - tha t is the growe r, the wholesal er, the retailer and the distributor - and the co mmission, in its wisdom, could not see us being able to rat ionalize the situa tion unless people decided wha t they were .

If they wer e a prod ucer, tha t was fine; if they are a whol esa ler, tha t' s fine; but they have to fill the role, and in their wis dom they could not see it possibl e of rati onalizing and regulating marketing and leaving these peopl e opera ting as growe rs, as wholesalers and retai lers. If the growe r, as a growe r, wishes to have the pro te ction th at regula ted marketi ng gave him, that is the underwr iting of his price , etc. , the n he had to be wi lling to give up his role as a wholesaler and retai ler, and it wa s on this basis tha t these de cisions were made .

Now it may appear on the surface tha t there is some conflict between the Department of Industry and Commerce trying to regionalize, decentralize industry, and the results of the

May 3rd, 196!) 2213 (MR. HUTTON cont 'd. ) decision in a few cases - and there are just a few cases - the re- su lts of the de cision of the Potato Mar ket ing Commission in defining the different roles of the different segn1ents of the industr y and giving the se peopl e a choice of what they we re going to be . It may ap pear as I sa y on the surfa ce that there is a conf lict, but indeed the reasons for the rat ionaliz ati on of the potato industry we re different from those - and the necessit y was dif ferent - than the reasons why Indus try and Commerce att empts to effect decentraliz ati on of indus try.

There was no hope of rationali zing the marketing of potatoe s in Manitob a wi thout the definition of the role of the vari ous sectors of the indus try and bringing some order out of what really was , I"m afraid, a pretty chaotic situa tion in the pa st. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I fail to unders tand this policy. It seems to me that wh at's sa uce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

On the one hand in one commod ity, that 's the pou ltry indust ry, the Honourabl e Minister sa id that that was ad visabl e -b oth Ministers sa id -t o integrate compl et e ly the produce r, the evisce rator and all the allied industries because it's best for the industry. We ll I fail to see why anothe r commod ity group, the potato grow ers , could not be tre ate d in the same manner. It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe I don 't unders tand it fully, but I'm sure that , acco rding to my thinking, it simply doesn't make sense.

If you can do that on the one hand with the poultry in dustry, surely it should be possibl e to do it with the potato industry. I have no proposal to make but it seems to me that this is kind of a two -pronged policy here wi th the Depa rtment of Agricu lture. I can't see anything wrong with some of the se smaller pla nts like - sa y Gretna, there 's one at Altona or Ca rman - why they couldn't keep on pack ag ing. They don 't have to sell the prod uct. They ca n always send the product into the board to be sold, to be markete d. But why stop them from preparing the se products in smaller packa ges?

I have a cl ipping here , and this comes from Car man and it sa ys, "Th e commi ssion is asking us to !�ive up packag ing at .the growe r le vel afte r we have been in this business for some six years. We have spent some 20 to $25 ,000 in our own plant to be able to wash, grade , size and pack all sizes of potatoes and grade s of potato es, and to st ore these pota toe s ready for shipment untH the orde r is filled. " And then there's anothe r paragraph here .

"The first re duction in our labour force at the local level is contrary to the pla nned de velopment of rural indus try wh ich ARDA and the Committee on Ma nitoba's Economic Future cl aim is nece ssa ry if we in Mani tob a are going to deve lop our rural are as and emp loy our labour force at home. " I underst ood the Honourable Minist er of Industry and Commerce to te ll us in the past that he's all for decentraliz ation of indus try, and this seems just to be wo rking in the opposite direct ion. I still can't see that wh at is good for one industry, a fa rming industry too, is no good for anothe r one. MR.

HUTTON: Mr. Cha irman, I would be glad at the time that I deal with my est imates to go into - - I expect that members wi ll be firing questions at me about the opera tions of the se commi ssions and the policies they follow, and it might be more usef ul to wai t until my est imate s rathe r than to open up the subject here . MR. FROESE: Mr . Chairman , I too feel that there is a cer tain con flict here betw een bringing indus try into rural are as and de centraliz ati on and having these commi ssions set up whi ch tend to central ize. There 's a definite con flict the re.

I was wonde ring myself whe ther to bring it up here or at the time the Agricul tural est imates are considered, but since the Minister of Agricul ture has intimated that he would prefer having them at that time , I'll dela y. I'd like to make one further comm ent.

In putting forward my crit icism ea rlier this aft er noon, I ca n readi ly see that the Minister wi ll have hardshi ps in the future too in connection wi th the Development Fund and in assi st ing new business es, beca use there's an old sa ying that business wi lll go broke once or tw ice in order to reduce the ca pitaliz ati on so that the business can really be a going concern. I think there 's something to that because if their businesses have a high ca pitaliz ati on they must throw off a good return, othe rw ise they won 't be able to give the pe rcent age necessa ry.

There 's definite ly something to that and I think that we wi ll in time have the very situation that we had before us today repe ate d year af te r year . I can't see it any different in the future . At the same time , I want it underst ood that I didn't mean to cast any bad reflect ion on the sta ff of his de partment because I find them very co-opera tive and I'm sure they have the be st of the de partme nt at he art. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister in reply to my quest ion about the ab attoi rs in St. Boniface sa id the abattoi r that had received the loan was operating in a different

2214 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. GUTTOR MSON con t 'd. ) .. .. manner than the rest of them. This I ca n •t understand. Th ey're doing the same type of wo rk. How can he justify the ans we r he gave me toda y? MR. EV ANS: They sl a ughter animals on a cu stom basis on orders from various outs ide parties and ship them to the ir orders , mostly in the form of high grade cut s of meat and large ly for the Montreal restaura nt tr ade . MR. GUTTORMS ON: Is the Minister sug gest ing that none of the other aba tt oirs don' t do the same thing? MR. EV ANS: Not in the sa me way . MR. MO LGAT : Mr.

Chairman , if the Minister of Agricu lture was worried that we wou ldn't be dis.c uss ing the su bject under his estima tes , I'd like to give him comfort bec ause I'm su re tha t we will. The reason that I want ed so me explana tion on it now is bec ause the de central iza tion of industry of co urse is primarily a responsi bility of the Minister of Industry and Commerce , and yet here is a ca se whe re quite obvious ly the po licy in the Depa rtment of Agricu lture has an effect on what happens in the Department of Industry and Commerce.

This aft ernoon we we re dis cussing the question of the broiler industry wh ere the reverse was hap pening, whe re de cision s made by the Department of Industry and Commerce , or the Deve lop ment Fund rathe r, we re having a profound effect in the field of agricult ure. My question s therefore must be as ked first here in this de partment insofar as the decentraliz ation, and then we 'l l com e along to the other as pect under Agricu lture.

It seems to me from the rep ly of the Minister that the Minister of Agricul ture here ha s made a de ci sion that insofa r as the partic ula r industry is co ncerned - that is the po ta to industry - that it is in the interests of the po tato indu stry that it be centralized . I wonde r therefore whe n he makes that de ci sion, is there con sulta tion with his co lleagues or is this a unilateral de cision taken by Agricult ure; and then si milarly whe n Industry and Commerce proceed on some. of the ir pla ns, for example this one of the broiler industry.

So my quest ion of the Minister of Industry and Commerce now insofar as the broiler in dustry would be , we re representa ti ons made to him -- prior to the granting of the partic ula r loan that was being dis cussed toda y, was he aware that the loan was being granted before it was granted or was this done with his knowledg e ? MR. EV ANS: No , I was not informed sp eci fic ally about the loa n in advanc e. MR. MO LGAT: Did the Minister not rece ive any represent ation s from other peo ple who we re in the si milar type of industry objec ting to the pa rticular loan that was grante d? MR.

EV ANS: I think someone on the oppos ite si de referred to a letter of wh ich I got a copy. Yes. MR. MOL GAT: It seems to me that there are some con flicting figures that have com e out in this

part icu lar fie ld. The Minister on Satur day gave us the production figures for the Province of Mani toba as being 13 to 14 million po unds . He gave us the production figures as so me nine million, leaving us a shorta ge of between four and five . I have here a new spa per cl ipping from the Manitoba Co -Op erator, the 7th of January 19 65, whe re a professo r, George C.

Hodg son of the University of Manitoba Pou ltry Departm ent, appa rently made a st udy of the matter and was making some sta tements regarding the poultry business in general, and one of the sta teme nts there is: "It is of interest to note that Mani toba has increased her bro iler ton nage from a marked defici ency si tuation two. years ago to one of se lf-suffic iency at the cl ose of 1964," So Profess or Hodgson, who is responsible for the poultry departme nt, said that at the end of '64 we are in ab a lanced position in the broiler industry.

The Minister te lls us tha t at the end of '64 we 'r e 50 percent under -- we 're some four to five million tons short on a production of nine million. Now wh ich are the cor rect figures ? MR. EV ANS: I'm sure my honourabl e friend means four to five million po unds rat her than tons short. My figures have been very ca refully checked back and forth and they have been con firmed by field su rveys. I wo n't sa y anything ab out the good profess or' s figures , but I'll sa y mine are right, MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister indicated to day -- I had no informa tion to support my remarks about the aba tto ir. We ll I have a notice here about one of the ab att oirs tha t we nt into ba nkruptcy in St . Bo niface , and I am also adv ised that this sam e aba ttoir - it's the Public Abattoir Limited -m ade ap plica tion to the Develop ment Fund to help them out of the difficul ty and they we re turned down. This is prompting a lot of talk on why the govern ment wo uld still as sist this other aba ttoir wh ich is in direct compe tition, despite what the Minister sa ys.

Just bec ause one phas e of the ir opera tion might vary sl ightly from what the others are doing, they're still ba sicall y doing the sa me work , and to sa y tha t maybe they ship

May 3rd, 1965 2215 (MR. GUTT ORMSON cont'd . ) ..... meat to Montre al doesn't sa y that other abattoirs aren't doing the same thing. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. Joh n's): Mr. Chairman , on an entire ly different subject, I wouldn 't like the Honourable Minister to fee l that I'm discri minating aga inst him beca use I ha ve left him out of some enquiries I've made of predecessors in the es timat es.

The Minister may be aware of the fact that I have been searching for some $5 million, not a paltry sum, witho ut success for some per iod of time and -- (Interjec tion) -- not a paltry sum -- poultry is other peopl e 's problems at the moment and mainly the Minister's. But I'm looking for a sum wh ich is something like twice the size of his budge t so I really can't acc use him of concealing all of the money and possi bly he is concealing none of it.

So that I want to direct a question to him, wh ich I have directed to othe r members and that is , is there any amount in his budg et wh ich ca n be co nsidered to be a sum to be used in reduction of monies wh ich would formerly have been payable by real prope rty taxpa yers and derived out of the revenues of some $24 million wh ich the government is taxing and rece iving as a result of last summer's budget?

And since only $19 million of that 24 million has been found by me and I'm still looking for 5 million, possi bly the Minister could help me find some of that five and if so, I would appre cia te his assista nce. MR. EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman , there are no such amounts in my es timat es. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Chairman , I waite d patiently till now to raise a coupl e of add itional points regarding the Dep artment of Industry and Commerce and this matte r of government loan being extende d to verticall y integrate d opera tions. Now I recall, Mr.

Chairman , that you we re consid erabl y confused this afte roon wh en the Member for Gladstone began to make reference to the Farmers ' Union and to farme rs in his dish·ict and their opinions on poultry production in this province , et c. And if you were con fused, Mr.

Chairman, I must con fess that so am I, and the reason for our con fus ion has to do with your government because it is this government that has seen fit, through one of its agenci es, to extend 3/ 4 of a million dollars in loan ca pital to a commercial enterprise that is operating in a way that is quite stra nge and quite divorced from the traditional and o·rdinary kind of farming operation that we are accus tomed to. Now it's true that the Minister of Industry and Commerce did have some points of de fence wh ich sound quite pla usible and rational.

He says .that the broiler industry is one of large-sc ale production in othe r are as and that if our broiler producers here in Ma nitoba do not bec ome more effici ent, through large-sc ale produc tion , that the likelihood is that more and more will be importe d be ca use of cheaper price , from outsid e. Mr . Chairman , this is what they are sa ying all over.

It seems to me that no matte r whe re you go, no matter wh at province you go to or what sta te , you hear the same thing said, that the justifica tion for large sc ale comm ercial food produc tion, in this ca se broilers , is because if we don 't do it, it will come in from outs ide . It's alway s outs ide , it's from outs ide that the threat is' posed. Some wh ere along the line , in the post-war period, gove rnments in North America have failed, have fa iled the farmer.

Not just the gove rnment in Manito ba, or in Canada but in North America, beca use they have sat idly by wh ile there has been this consta nt pr essur e toward mass or large E)Cale product ion in cer tain se lect ed are as of the fa rming industry and this has done the farm community no good at all.

It's true that some of this may have resulted in che ape r food for the cons umer but I would point out that the Canadian agric ultural produ cer, the Canadian fa rmer, is relatively speaking -- that is to sa y, looking at the wor ld context -- effici ent as it is and the only time one can sa y that the small farmer is ineffici ent is when you relate his operation to the large- sc ale opera tions within our own country and our own province , but relative to fa rmers anywhere else in the world he is effici ent and has bee n for quite some time .

It is interesting that in Europe the ratio of the cost of shelter to the cost of food in a month is in inverse proportion to that wh ich applies here . That is to sa y, whe reas in Mani tob a the aver age family might spend about $100. 00 for she lter, it would also spend somew here around 100 or $120 .0 0 on food and that 's pretty high, whe reas in Europe, let us say, the cost of she lter is much higher than is the cost of food. But, Mr. Chairman , I don't want to be too general in remarks beca use I have some pointe d things to sa y to the Minister and his co lleagues for this Friendly Family Farms ep isode .

First of all I want to say that the letter wh ich the Minister read to us the othe r day is mis leading. It's misleading in the sense that you have repe ate d reference in that letter to "w e farme rs" . I find it at least three or four places in the lett er. "We farmers , own and operate our own business . We are all fa rmers who have been engaged in raising broilers

2216 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. SCHREYER cont' d. ) ... and turkeys in Manitob a for many years ." I think wh at really makes it nece ss ary' to point that out is that in the news

article on this matt er of Friendly Family Farms we have this st ateme nt referring to Friendly Family Farms ; we see this : "Th ey we re all fa rmers who had been engage d in rais ing broilers and turkeys in the province for many yea rs. The y owned and operated their own business with no shareholders owni ng more than 15 percent ," and so alre ady mass media has sa id that the se peopl e are all bona fide fa rm ers whe n the fact is, bela ted admi ssi on given today by the Minis ter , that they are not in fact bona fide farmers, although the letter certa inly leave s that impression.

If there is or there are some ent repreneurs in this province who want to get into the food producing business, they should be able to get a loan through the Agricultural Credit Corpora tion. If they cannot, beca use they are not bona fide farmers , then I suggest that they should not get a loan from any public age ncy for the simple reason that they are not bona fide fa rmers. It is a fact that the Agricult ural Credit Corpora tion has a maximum ceiling on the amount of loan that they wi ll extend and it's somewh ere as I unders tand in the order of 25 or 30 thousa nd dollars .

Now this isn't very much whe n you relate that to how much was extende d here . We 're not talking about 10 , or 20, or 30 tho usa nd. In this ca se the public age ncy loaned out in the order of 3/ 4 of a million dollars . For what purpo se ? We ll, acc ording to the Minist er of In dus try and Commerce for the purpose of increas ing the broiler production and proce ssi ng ca pacity in this province in orde r to head off the pos sibi lity of increased exports comi ng in to fill the demand and domest ic production gap.

Now that 's just been co ntrad ict ed or at least ques tioned by the Leade r of the Opposition who indic ate d that , according to a profe ssor in the poult ry fie ld at the universit y that dome st ic production met dome st ic demand . Now even if this is not the ca se , the fact of the matter is that if there was a dome stic production gap , somew here low er than dome stic demand , the fact is that we alre ady did have in existence in this province poult ry processing pla nts with the ca pacity to proce ss more than the local or dome stic demand in this province .

It is my est imation that the exis ting pou ltry proce ssi ng pla nts in Mani tob a as of the end of last year , had a fu ll ca pacity of around 58 million pounds . None of the se pla nts we re work ing to capacity so it's not as though our existing proce ssi ng pla nts lacked the ca pacity. I think it's important to ask why it is that the pub lic agency saw fit to extend a substa ntial loan to a group of entrepreneurs to increase pla nt ca pacity in an are a whe re the pla nt ca pacity was al ready there .

In any case, recentl y the Manitob a Dairy and Poultry Co-op opene d a pla nt, an evisce rat ing and processing plant at Blumenort. They bought the pla nt from a group who had discon tinued business and the Manitob a Dairy and Poult ry Co-op did some renovation and improve ments and the pla nt has a subs tanti al ca pa city. The Manitob a Dairy and Poultry Co-op under took a $450 ,000 expansion program and they ca rried it through . The pla nt was loc ate d in a good locat ion, easil y acce ssible by road for a cons iderable are a.

If there were broiler pro ducers who neede d processing fa cili ties or proc essi ng work done for them, this pla nt here , this Co-op pla nt of large size , stood ready to do this work .

I understa nd that the Friendly Family Farms site and thi s rather large and recentl y renova te d Dairy and Poultry Co-op pla nt at Blumenort is a matter of only a few miles apart but what honourable members here do not know -- I'm not sure if the Minister is aware -- there has been some consid erabl e rivalry and perhaps some ill fee ling be twee n at least one of the gentlemen who is on this Friendly Family Farms corp oration and the Ma nitoba Dairy and Poult ry Co-op.

One of the se gentlemen had wanted to buy this sa me pla nt wh ich the Mani tob a Dairy and Pou ltry Co-op purchased and , having fa iled to obtain or proc ure this plant, he ente red into an entrepeneu rship or into an ar rangement wi th the se othe r gentlemen in Friendly Family Farms . So the result is that now we have two pla nts , two pou ltry processing pla nts in sout h-e astern Ma nitob a sca nt miles apa rt, very few miles apa rt, both wi th large ca pacities - betw een the two of them a ca pacity and a potential ca pacity to proce ss for the ent ire Ma nitoba broiler market.

I don't want to at this time get into the field of discussion having to do with the small fa rm op•3rator versus vertical integration and mass sc ale food produc tion.

That is something wh ich ca n wait for the Department of Agricu lture est imates but I do think that it is nece ssa ry to point out that this government or its agency's action by extending $7 50, 000 of a loan to a co rpora tion, at least four of wh ich members are not bona fide fa rmers , de sp ite this reference to "we fa rmers" , is going to have quite a deb ilitating or depre ssi ng effect on the Mani toba Dairy and Poultry Co-op plant at Blumenort. Thi s is a true co- opera tive venture . Manito ba Dairy and Pou ltry Co-op is the organization of hundreds and hundreds of small and medium

May 3rd, 1965 2217 (MR. SCHREYER cont' d. ) sized Manitob a fa rmers . It has had its difficulti es, but through the years it has persevered and now just recently they we nt into this rat her bold ven ture of poul try proc ess ing and now they are being given compe tition by a large- sca le organiza tion wh ich has been set up thanks to, among othe r things , thanks to 3/ 4 of a million dollars of public funds .

And the Membe rs of the Manitob a Dairy and Poultry Co-op in this province are not really going to receiv e any advantage from this wh atsoever; in fa ct, wh at they wi ll experi ence is a cons iderable amount of competition from a firm that has been est ablished with thousands and tho usa nds of dol lars of public money. The Manitob a Dairy and Poultry Co -op pla nt at Blumenort has a fairly large capac ity. It has never oper ate d at full ca pacity and now with this large enterprise coming up nearby it never will - it never will.

Finally , let me point out that the Minister of Indus try and Commerce has suggested that the Friendly Fam ily Farms is going into the broiler production indust ry and he says that this is a sec tor of agricu lture in wh ich the small operator has not been in, in recent years, so he can't get hurt. I must grudgingly co ncede that this is for the most

part corr ect. Howeve r, howeve r it must be pointed out that Friendly Family Farms is not exclus ively in the broiler production sector of the agricult ure industry. It is also going into allied poultry production and into cattle and into hogs . Now adm ittedly at this sta ge it is not in the se latte r two fields to any large de gree, but it is ce rtainly on its agenda and fast becoming so -- (Interjec tion) - Beg your pardon? MR. EVANS: Could my honourable friend te ll me his auth ority? MR. SCHREYER: We ll, Mr.

Chairman , I have two sources for that statem ent, one of them being a shee t of resea rch facts as put out by the resea rch st aff of the Manitob a Farmers' Union and I presume that the ir sta ff gets paid for doing an honest da y's work, namely to re se arch and find out what is happening in agriculture in this province. MR. EVANS: My sta ff doe s too, and I co nsider the statement incorrect. MR. SCHREYER: That this enterprise , Friendly Family Farms , is not involved in hog and cattle produc tion? MR. EV ANS: Yes, as far as I'm aware that is corr ect.

As the enterprise known as Friendly Family Farms to which a loan was made by Manitoba Development Fund, that st ate ment is not corr ect. MR. SCHREYER: We ll then, Mr. Chairman, I would have to accept it if the Minister has received his information from his st aff . We ha ve then a ca se of a con flict of information wh ich we will have to reso lve by furt her checking and I shall then leave this matte r in abeyance until we get to the esti mate s of the Department of Agricul ture .

In conclus ion then let me say that the co -operative movement in this province could have -- as one alternative -- could have been given greater encour agement and stimulation, and even gove rnment assis tance if nece ssa ry, in order to expand its proce ss ing facili ty ca pacity as one alternative .

This government has seen fit not to do so; how ever, they have extende d a very very large loan indeed to a co rporation wh ich is not -- does not have any of the chara ct eristics of a co- opera tive , wh ich is composed of shareho lders , the majority share holders of wh ich are not bona fide fa rmers and this firm is giving d�rect comp etition, direct co mpetition to the Manitob a Farmers Co -opera tive Enterprise in this province . MR. EVANS: We ll, Mr. Chairman , my honourab le friend has brought up one new point I'd like to discuss with him.

He talks about the ca pacity of the pla nt and adds toge ther the killing ca pacities of the various pla nts and it comes to a very large number. But it isn't the ca pacity of the eviscera ting plant that is eit her the crucial point nor the bottlen eck. It's the questi on of feeding and getting the chicks or poults and the feed at prices that enable them to get their prices of chicken down. And that in fact is wh ere the advantage to an integrate d or vertically integrate d out fit of this kind com es. Not in the slaught er.

I might sa y that the fa rmers who comprise the FFF at one time we re members of the Co-op and at another time sent their bi rds to the Co-op to be slaughte red on a cust om basis and couldn't afford the very high charge s that we re made by the Co-op and so in order to get a better price they took their birds to one of the commercial pla nts in Manitob a whe re they got a very subs tantially lowe r price . The Co- op lost the contract in the first pla ce on their prices being too high.

And it was anothe r orga nization altogeth er, a commercial organization in Winnipeg -- I wouldn 't mind mentioning the name if I could remember wh ich it is , but it's one of the comm ercial sla ughter ing pla nts that gave them a much lower price , but they found that the birds that be longed to the FFF we re being de layed many many hours before being slaughte red. I don't know whe ther my

2218 M ay 3rd, 1965 (MR. EV ANS cont' d. ) .... honourable friend knows it but I recall one figure that if a bird is sta rved four hours before it's sl a ughte red it loses 2- 1/2 percent of its we ight. We ll, 2-1/ 2 percent ca n be the difference betw een profit and loss and it goes up from there. I just forget what the figures are .

At six hours it's a higher percenta ge and at ei ght hours it' s a higher percen tage still and those are the findings , if my honourable friend from Emerson wants to check them out, of the main broiler test that was ca rried on a few years ago under .... ....•. . . . . . . . condit ions. And so they found their seco nd servic ing organization unsatisfactory and it was at that point, and not be ing able to get ei ther the qualit y or the value out of the ir birds , after having spent all the time in raising them, that they ca me to the Department for advice and as sist ance .

So those are the fact s that I have on these matters and I would like him to con si de r those ca refully. He indicates that the Co-op plant st ood ready to do the business. They did. They had the ir chance at it; they fa iled to hold the contra ct bec ause somebody out-c ompete d them. He mentioned something in the nature of rivalry and ill fee ling. I don't know whe ther, over this business of first of all enjoying the contract and the n losing it, some ill fee ling deve loped. I'm not aware of it if it did. He sa ys the gove rnment didn 't help the Co-op but did he lp this othe r group.

That's bec ause the othe r group ca me and as ked us to; the Co-op did not. MR. SCHREYER: .. ...... .. ....... point there . The Minister sa id at the very begin- ning of his reply, that the crucial fa ct or was not the co st of eviscera tion and processing but rathe r the cost fa ctor in obtaining feed, feeding the birds , etc. MR. EVANS: ........ I sa id that the poults ...... the pou lts , and then the feed as we ll. MR. SCHREYER: Right. Now then having sa id that , and I may sa y, Mr.

Chairman , that sou nds quite pla usible, but afte r having sa id that , a few minutes late r he sa id that one of the reasons why these opera tors dis continued doing business with the Co-op was bec ause of the high cost wh ich the Co-op was charging them for evisce ration and processing and to me the re's a contradiction there .

Now then, pe rhaps the Co-op was having to charg e this relative ly high price bec ause it had not achieved the effici ency of scale, in wh ich ca se a loan from this govern ment to enable the Co-op to increa se its capacity even more plus the reby obtaining the effici ency of scal e, may have as sisted the Co-op in low ering its price on evi sceration and process ing, in wh ich ca se then the producers in the are a could have continued to utilize that service .

I don't know if the Minister wants to pursue that but there is a point the re which I sa y in all si nce rity does n •t really squa re one with the other. MR. CAMPB ELL: Mr. Chairman , might I interject this point that the Honourabl e the Minister sa ys that these fa rmers we re members of the Co- operative.

We ll now, if they we re members of the Co -opera tive my honourabl e friend the Minister would realize that even though the price that they we re ch arged appe ared to be high to them at the time , if they we re members of the Co-op era tive they would get the ir returns ba se d on tha amolunt of birds that they had put through the plant, because my honourable friend the Minister will recollect that it's sta ndard proce dure of the Co-opera tives to perform the ir servi ces or sell their goods , as the ca se may be , at the regular prices and then any sav ings that are made ac crue to the members .

So it's likely that they we re just fo llowing the stan dard practice of having the sa me price that was general in the trade but these people would have got , by patronizing them, the sa vings that would come to the Co-op through increased volume . MR. EV ANS: My comment on that would be that if there we re no sa vings , if the pla nt we re less effici ent and more expens ive , there would be no sa vings to be returned. MR. CAMPBELL: The likelihood is that there wo uld be incre ased effici ency in opera tion with that volume going through them. MR. EV ANS: .......... ...... system they we re using. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr . Chairman, I wan� to sa y as my final co mment on this wh ole epi so de that this whole problem began in the post -war period as a result of businessm en, active bus inessmen in whate ver field of enterprise , getting the bright ide a that there was money to be made in the food production industry, certa in se lect ed sec tors of agricul ture , and they we nt into it partly as a money-making enterprise and partly as a digression, an interesti ng diversion , if you like. And this is what has ca used so much of the di fficu lty.

Having the capital in the first pla ce , extra ca pital , and having perhaps a little bit of a hobby interest in raising broilers or whateve r, they sunk money into this sort of thing with the result that they we re ab le to freeze out the small and medium sized prod ucer. Now that perhaps is to be regretted but it's part of the march of history, you could argue . But wh at is galling is that people who go into an agri cu ltural enterprise la rgely or even partly as an interesting dive rsion, should be as sist ed in doing

May 3rd, 1965 2219 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd. ) .... so by public funds . I think this is galling, to sa y the least. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gla dstone ): Mr. Chairman , there was one po int that I am not quite cl ea r on yet in this regard. I underst ood the Minister to say tha t by 1970 the consump tion of broiler mea t per ca pita in Manitob a would be 20 pounds or thereabout s. Now I think .... MR. EVANS: Perhaps my honourable friend may have misunderst ood me. I said the total consumption in Manitoba would reach 20 million pounds. MR. SHOEMAK ER: We ll, Mr.

Chairman, there isn't too much difference then, I guess because if there are a million people and they ea t 20 million pounds , why tha t's 20 pounds , un- less we ca n expect ..... . MR. EVANS: By 1970 there will be more. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well I'm more or less correct - it 'l l be 19 point some ounces , I su pp ose , but anyway the question I want to ask , the point I want to raise is this: I think it's pretty we ll estab lished that we don't sit up and ea t chickens or broilers at nights just to have something to do.

That is , if the consu mption of broiler meat goes up then the cons umption of some othe r kind of meat goes down . -- (Interjecti on) -- It doesn 't. We ll, then, Mr . Chair man, my honourab le friend sa ys it doesn't, that it 's just add itional, we eat that much add itional. If we've been ea ting 20 pounds of beef per year, we ll we just eat 20 pounds more broiler mea t beca use he wants us to.

We ll this is exact ly what I suspected, that a lot of the information tha t's put out by the branch is propa ganda and I think here is the proof of it, because I want to refer him to Page 48 of "T he Farm Outlook ", the last page . And it sa ys: "Consumption of broiler meat has increased from an esti mated 1/2 pound in 1950 , to 17 .2 pounds per person in 1963, This has largely been accomplished at the expense of roas ting chicken and fowl which fell from 16 .4 pounC:s in 1952 to 6. 7 pounds in 1963 ." Roasting chicken.

So it is not so in pounds ; in pounds they're not ea ting any more per ca pita. -- (interjec tion) -- We ll cert ainly, cer tainly, and different people produc ing it. But my honourable friend over there tr ied to point out tha t nothing went down; when the co nsumption of broilers went up, nothing went down - they just ate that much ad ditional. We ll this isn't a fa ct. This is not a fa ct. Like a lot of other things that emanate from over there. And inc identally, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to have my honourable friend, the Member for Brokenhead, table that information - the incorrect informat ion that he has from the Farm Union statistical division. I wonde r if I could request that he table tha t inc orrect information. Either tha t, or read it onto the records , because if it is wrong we ll let 's find out. If it's right, let's find out, because if it is correct, then some of the other information is incorrect . So I insist that it be either read on - - I suggest that it be rea d onto the records. MR.

SCH REYER: I have long wa ited for an invitati on to rea d it all and I shall do so. This is a sta tement prepared by the Farmers' Union and it reads as follows : "Friendly Family Far ms, Steinbach. Frank Reimer" - and it gives a descri pt ion of the holdings of each of the major shareho lders and st arting with the first , Fra nk Reimer - "fourteen barns , 40 feet by 250 feet, each one holding 11, 000 chicken broilers. Each one of these barns ca n turn out 11, 000 broilers every ten to eleven we eks.

This in total, would be an output of 15 4, 000 broilers every ten to eleven weeks or a yearly output of approxima tel y 750, 000 broilers . Two hog barns whi ch turn out about 2, 400 hogs per year. Along with the same operation, a tu rkey barn, 60 feet by 500 feet , wh ich ca n turn out about 30, 000 turkey broilers every 14 to 15 we eks. Another barn, 60 feet by 400 feet, wh ich can turn out 25, 000 turkey broilers every 14 to 15 week s. These tw o tu rkey units ca n tu rn out about 190, 000 turkey broilers per year.

"This same operation has a ca ttle feed lot wh ich at present ti me has 60 head of ca ttle on feed. This is far from their goal. The droppings from the ch ickens and turkeys are to be used as a protein supp lement to feed the ca ttl e. By the way , as the owner of Reimer Express wa ys, Mr. Reimer owns we ll over 40 transportation va ns. John D. Penner, President of Penner Tir es, with distributing points in Sask atc hewan , Alberta and Manito ba, has one single unit - 40 feet by 250 feet; one doub le unit - 40 feet by 250 feet, wh ich house in total, approxi mate ly 40,000 laying hens.

The se hens will produce at least 22, 000 or more cases of eggs per year. "Ben Reimer has three barns each measuring 40 feet by 250 feet wh ich will turn out 33 , 000 broilers every 10 to 11 weeks or about 165 ,000 per year. It is rumoured that he in tends to build two more barns in the spring; if and when this becomes a reality he will increase his production output to 275 broilers per year. Mr . Giesbrecht has three barns measur ing 40 feet by 250 feet each, a yearly output of 165 ,000 broiler s.

When you take these three broiler units into co nsidera tion, they have a co mbined grand tot al yearly output of 1, 380 ,000 birds .

2220 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. SCHREYER cont 'd. ) "It is rumoured that Friendly Family Farms' goal is to build at least 50 barns so as to produce enough broiler chickens , turkeys and mature turkeys to supp ly the total Manitob a market. They have their own killing and process ing pla nt wh ich ca n quite eas ily handle all the product required for the provinc e. To improve feed convers ion for the chickens and turkeys, they have installed one dryer - to dry entrails and waste from the chickens and turkeys. They have installed anothe r dryer wh ich dries feathe rs.

The se are then put through hamme r mills and then are used as protein suppl ement for the turkeys and the chick ens . " And that 's the in formation, Mr. Chairman , correct or incorrect as it may be . I intend to pursue this further, to asce rtain wh ich staff is more accura te in its research. MR. EV ANS: It doesn't sta te anyw here in the release that any of tho se hogs or ca ttle have anything to do in any way with the FFF Farm.

It mentions that one of the men concerned does in fac t have the se hogs and ca ttle - and that may we ll be true - it has nothing to do with the FFF; nor does it say so in the release . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 (a) ... MR. SCHREYER: Just as a rejo inder on that point, I'm sure that the Minister is we ll aware that wh en a firm receiv es, or an entrepreneur receiv es, a loan of capital, that that loan frees anothe r sum of ca pital somew here else wh ich he ca n the n divert to use elsew here.

So that a loan from the pub lic agency merely frees, frees a loan, or rather a sum of ca pital, owne d by that entrepreneur or that firm, wh ich they then use in some othe r direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) pas sed, (

c) pa ssed, (

d) passed. Resolution No. 91 passed. Reso lution No . 92, 2 (a) .... MR. SHOEMAK ER: ..... ............. hear anything for the noise of the chipmunks opposite , in the wo rds of my honourable friend over here. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2 (

b) pa ssed, 2 (

c) pa ssed, 2 (

d) passed. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman , under 2 (

d) I would like to know wh at the 50 0, 000 is sup posed to go for ; just wh at kind of training and what is involved here ? MR. EV ANS: Yes, I'd be very happy to provide some information on this in-pla nt train ing scheme that is covered by the item that my honourable friend talks abou t. The in-pla nt training scheme is one of the most important deve lopments that this department has underta ken. It's a pa radox at the present time in Mani tob a, that there are people who are not emp loyed and at the sa me time there are very severe shortage s.

The garment industry is one of them, be cause at the beginning of last year there we re some 400 sewing machines idle in Manitob a for want of trained people. I think my honourable friend will know in his part of the country that there is an inabi lity to get trained or trainab le people to fully sta ff some of the garment pla nts that are down in his part of the country. The garment industry is big at the present time and has the ca pacity of getting bigger.

The re are some 6, 000 people emp loyed in it in Manitob a and COMEF tells us that by 1975 there ca n be from 12 to 15 thousand people employed and turning out be tw een 100 and 125 million dollars worth of goods a year. But the lack of trained people has caused a very sever e ec onomic loss in Manitob a.

One firm has told me of a loss of a $2 00,000 order because they couldn't get people to run the machines that were busy in their own pla nt and I think one of the pla nts in my honourable friend's territory , in his own co nstituency, is ready at any time now to ex pand into the lot next door , to build a plant equal in size to the ir present one in order to doub le their ca pac ity and they can't do it because they can't see a proper su pply of trained people in sight yet. We hope to mend that . I've mentioned alre ady that there were 400 machines idle to st art with last year.

We ll what are we doing ab out it? We started the in-pla nt training scheme , jointly be tw een the manufac ture rs, the Government of Ca nada and the Government of Manitob a and we are in fact training operators . The manufac turer provides the space and the machine s and the mate rials and selects the trainees and pays half of the trainee allowanc e. The governments split 50-50 on organization and ad ministration, pay the instructors and they split the other half of the trainee s' allowanc es.

Fifty-three manufac turers ap plied for in-pla nt training schemes in the ir plants in Manitob a and we expect that before the year is out, and before this course is finished, that over 100 pla nts in Manitob a will have take n advantage of this cours e. Already 623 trainees have completed the ir training and a half of them had had no previous experience with employment of any kind; these are new recruits to the ranks of the employed. And the se half of the people, or 300-o dd, have learned a trade . Eighty percent of those who completed the course and quali fied have remained in employment.

We have st opped the drain of worke rs

May 3rd, 1965 2221 (MR. EV ANS cont' d. ) .... away from the garment industry. Before st arting on this in-plant training scheme , for every 100 new recruits brought into the garment industry, 102 left, and so there was a slow but neverthe less steady drain away of trained people from the industry. Since completion of this, for 137 trainees who started in the plants , who were employed in the pla nts afte r completing their training, only 100 left and so there is now a net and substantial gain in the trained work force to run this indus try. It is really new life for an industry.

The government took the lead and showed the way and we set the patte rn wh ich I think may we ll be followed, not only in the co ntinuation of this pla n that is wo rking now in the garment industry but for other industries as we ll, and cons ideration now is being given to extending this same kind of help in other fields. MR. FROESE: Mr . Chairman , before we leave the item, the Honourable Minister mentioned the sewing machine opera tors and espec ially this pa rticula r industry. How many diffe rent type of industries have you participating under such a program ? MR.

EVANS: At the moment, with this type of in-pla nt training scheme , we have con fined our efforts , or the first such effort was in the garment trade. I might say that consider able work is also be ing done with respect to the fur garment industry wh ich is a different cla ss of industry and would profit from simila r atte ntion. We think that in this case there is an extra ordina ry example of co-operation between labour, manage ment and government.

It's a most important factor with respect to industrial deve lopment, to provide new jobs and to revive old jobs and we think that reviving old jobs is just about as profita ble as providing new ones, and the fur garment industry in Manito ba is an excellent example of what can be done in this re gard. The fur garment industry, mostl y in Greater Winnipeg, from 1920 to 1940 had an annual product ion of about $6 million in value . They used to employ 800 people and they had a $2 mil lion pa yroll.

We ll there has been an alarming decline in this industry from the point whe re they had 800 employees unti l now there are less than 100 employed in this industry in Manitoba. We ll the reasons that are given to us, and by some pretty expert peopl e who ca me here to ad vise us , are three in number. First, that antiquated methods are being emp loyed by the in dus try in Manitob a now, there we re no proper sc ientific cost controls and poor styles were being put into the garments.

These are not my opinions , they are handed to me as a result of several very we ll qualified reports that have been made on this industry in Manitob a. We ll there has been a unique event, and I think one that the House wo uld do we ll to pause and note quite ca refully, because I think it's quite an examp le to oth ers , that othe rs might fol low. A unique event in labour manage ment relations occurred in this industry during the last year because nine union members and five ma nagers approache d the government togethe r with a request that somet hing be done to help their industry.

Labour and manage ment togethe r. I've always said that there may be occas ions wh en Labour and manage ment may line up on op posite sides of the bargaining table and may probably have nothing in common, and it's a bar gain and it's an auction and you find out wh at the eventual result is . But at all othe r times in my opinion, labour and manageme nt have everything in common, and here is an example whe re they recognized it and recognized it by joining the ir forces and asking the government to help them, that they could do something for themselves and for the province.

And. so the government made a thorough study of the steps that should be take n to increase effic iency , to increase produc tivity , and to produce goods that would comp;,te , not only in the markets here , and here again my honourable friend should realize that most, a very large proportion , of the fur garments that are bought right here in Winnipeg and Manitoba are manu factured in Montreal and shipped back here, of furs that prob ab ly originated here in the first pla ce.

And here is anothe r example of whe re our raw mate rials are being shipped out for somebody else to work at and then we buy them back later on. The first step undertaken by this joint operation was to bring a furrier from Britain be cause one Montre al firm has worked up a very substa ntial export vo lume to the United Kingdom and we thought if they could do it, why couldn't we ? He visited the pla nts and spent several days in each of the fur garment pla nts in Manitob a, examining the st yle, wo rkmanship and the manufac turing methods employed in those pla nts .

The n they sent garments from the Winnipeg pla nts to England to test the marke ts . They we re comparativel y small but the garments were sold, but better yet, we got back a crit ique of the garments and the ir styling and the ir work manship and it was very revealing; for examp le in styling, it was found that ladies in England particu larly like to wear either suits or sweaters under the ir fur coa ts and the styling was such that the armholes hadn 't been cut large enough to accommodate this . Our coa ts were

2222 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. EV ANS cont'd. ) ..... uncomfortable over there because they were styled for people who :'Ion 't cus tomarily do that. Similarly with the kind of workm anship. I have seen technic al de sc riptions of how the sea ms were sewn in such a way in the pla nts here that wh en the garment was released the sea ms bu lged up , rathe r than lying flat. Techniques had adva nced since the days when they we re ac tive or prominent in the fur garment trade . The next thing that was d:me was to bring a fur expert from New York.

One, David Kaplan who was chairman of the fur department of the High School of Fashion Industries in New York City and he spent ten da ys in Manitob a visiting pla nts and gave a detailed confidential report to the manageme nt of each of the plants . This was a confidential report between him and the pla nt he visited.

I'm told that it was a very hard-h itting frank report that told them the kind of techniques that -- I heard him make the casual remark that , for examp le, he hadn't seen methods such as he found in some of the pla nts in Manitoba, for twenty years in New York, that they we re ce rtainly twenty years out of date in some of the methods being used. So there has been some progress with regard to this industry.

It's rather been by way of secu ring expert adv ice and bringing it into the pla nts up to this st age , than it has been to take the pla nt employ ees and begin to train them, but that st age is about to co me and I'd like to go along a little furthe r and descri be the pla n that will now be ca rried forward and the follow-t hrough or the follow-up will be provided in this way .

The next thing will be to get fur technicians to instruct the actual worke rs in the pla nts and to send someone from Manitoba, in fact this operation is underway now, to st udy the tech niques be ing emp loyed in the shops and by the workme n of Montreal and New York, among other centres. He will visit Montreal and New York and return here to teach actual production meth ods of quality production and for cost cutting right here in Manitoba. Well as 'I said this is a unique operation that's underta ken be tw een the fur garment indus try and the government.

It's a unique bit of co-opera tion on the part of labour and mana gement to st art with. Each of them I would hope would understand they could inivite and secure the co-opera tion of government. But here is labour and manageme nt jointly doing all of this opera tion.

And then wh en we decided to find the right fur technician to send down to see the latest metho:'l.s or to secu re from the outs ide and bring here , manage ment ca me to us - this is manage ment came to us, and they said, "Don't bring in somebody from the outside - send Sam Good man" , who was the labour union organizer of the fur garment worke rs -- I'm not sure of the correct title that he should have , but he is the local labour executive we ll known to all of us - and their words "Don't bring anyone in - send Sam Goodman" and this is underway now.

This is at the request of manageme nt that the labour union man be sent down to do this job, wh ich would eventually result in an opera tion very ak in to managem ent's respons ibi lities; isn't this true ? Here would be a man coming back and occup ying supervis ory and instructing duties and he would in fact be a labour union to do it. I wrote to the head of his union in Chic ago request ing permission for Mr.

Goo1man to do so and I rece ived back the most prompt and co urteous reply and the most co- operative and enthusiastic reply that you could ask for from anyone and I expre ssed my gratitude to this union for their far-s ightedness and for the ir ready response. We ll Mr . Goodman himself is giving us the heartie st pos sible co-opera tion and I dra w to attention the fact that the union continues to pay his sa lary, although the government out of the funds that my honourable friend is asking about, will pa y the expenses incident to his trip and to the instruction itself.

I have alre ady recorded my appr ecia tion of the International Headquarters of the Union in Chic ago giving me such a quick and gracious response. So this has been an outline of the main steps that have been taken as we set forth to the rescue of an industry and to show an encou raging example of harmony and mutual support between labour and manage ment for the betterment of the provinc e. MR. FROESE: I want to thank the Honourable Minister for the expla nation and going into detail on some of it.

I know that the industry has benefited through the gove rnment's program in my area as we have a number of the garment industries there and I also recently had a st ory rela ted -- or a chat with a fur garment worke r and she also had years of experience and she told me how the fur garment industry had gone to pieces here in Manito ba. I'm glad that the Minister referred to it and has told us of some of the progress they are making and of their program that they are co ntemplating on doing in correcti ng some of the measure s. MR. ARTHUR E. WRI GHT (Seven Oak s): Mr .

Chairman, the Manitob a Economic Con sult ative Boa rd report stressed the fact that manageme nt needed to be improved and it

Ma y 3rd, 196 5 2223 (MB . WEIGHT cont'd) .... speci ficall y mentions work study and supervisory training. I just wo nder wh at portion of this half million dolla rs would be used for this type of training. MR . EV ANS: On the questi on of manag ement, the raising of manageme nt skills , will proba b ly be led by the committee , the Manitoba Ec onomic Consu ltative Board, who have organ ized two sub-c ommittees, one of them on the problems of labour and labour manage ment re lations and the other on the prob lem of manag ement training.

And I think it's a very good thing that this is perhaps be ing done by people wh ose membership is very largely manage ment itsel f. I don't think it's a good thing for any outs ide auth ority, and pa rticularly a government, to te ll anyone else about the ir shortcomings but here in the COMEF there were largely busi ness men who reported on themse lves wh en they sa id that management skills in Manitoba need upgrading and so, on the basis of the ir report, this resp onsibility has been taken up by the committee on Manit oba's Economic Future and we ca n expect devel opment in that regard.

Now I would like to give some further particulars about the way in which the se courses of instruction will probably take pla ce. I have an outli ne of the actual courses that will .... MR . WEIGHT : .... familiar with the type of training; I just wonde red what portion of the mon9y has been allocated; if any, to this .... MR. EVANS: How much money you sa y? MR. WBIGHT: How much of the half million dolla rs; has it been speci fical iy alloca ted? - MR. EV ANS: .... set out, I don 1t think the money has been alloca ted course by course in that way .

I would sa y that this is a general esti mate of the -- we ll it's really the largest amount of money that we thought would be proper to devote to the training of both skills and managemen t skills in Man itob a this year. It has not been firmly alloca ted according to the dif ferent cour ses , beca use quite frankly, we don •t know what they are all going to be in the next twe lve months. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2 (d) -- passed, Resolution No. 92 -- pas sed; Reso lution No. 93 - passed; Resolution No. 94 -- passed; Resolution 95, 5(a ) -- MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman , ....

Resolution 95, I think this is the reso lution on wh ich to make my comment and to make a request. Is this the sec tion of your es timate s Mr. Minister that deals with feasi bility st udie s, etc . ? Apparently it is Mr. Chairman , and I dra w the attention of the Minister to Page 83 of the annual report for the year ending March 31 st, 1964, to a number of st udies that have been made in respect to various subjects pertaining to industry an�l the industrial life of the province, also agricultural and fishing industri es.

I wonde r, are all of the se feasi bility st udies referred to in the subseq uent pag es, available to members of the committee and if so I would make a request of the Minister for copies of the feasibil ity studies and market studies contained in Pages 84, 85, 86 and 87 . I would like to have them; there's one or two that I'm interested in particu larly.

The othe r day wh ile deal ing with the esti mates of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, I made reference to an experiment that was attempted insofar as raising phe asants was concerned and I notice that in the year ending March '64, on Page 85, reference is made to the feasibi lity of commerc ial pheasant raising in Manitoba. Also Mr . Chairman, there's - oh, wait a minute , I stopped too early - there's page 88, 89 also.

I also note insofar as wood products on Page 88, there was a marke t st udy and feasibil ity report re treated fence posts and in my own City of Transcona there is the cr eosote pla nt wh ich does treating there . I'm sure the Minister is aware of it. And I wonde r what the market study survey and feas ibi lity report might have in connection with that firm and othe rs. So I ask my ques tion again, is it possi ble for the Minister to supply me with copies of the feasibil ity studies that were made in the year under review of the department or contained in the report?

It does seem to me that some of the se at least refer to feasi bility studies - unless this is a cont inuation of them -- feas ibility studies that have been made in the pa st. Some of the se seem to be ever-recurri ng items and I'm interested - there's one pa rticularl y here in food products - consumption of Instant Coffee in the Greater Winnipeg area. I think I'd be interest ed to know what the experts have to come up with with the likes of that .

I didn't know whe ther it was nece ssa ry for us here in Manitob a to use our brains in the department to have a study made , unle ss this is just a statistical survey of the consumption of Instant Coffee in the Greater Winnipeg are a. I don't know wh ere the bea ns would come from to manufac ture the Instant Coffee or what is the reason for this partic ula r study but I would be interest ed if it is possi ble to obtain copies of the se. MR . EV ANS: We ll, I wo nder if it would be he lpful to my honourable friend if at some time he ca me to my office and I'd be glad to how him any that are not confid ential.

Now let me

2224 M3.y 3rd, 1965 (MR. EV ANS cont'd) .... sa y this , that the report, for exa mple , that resulted in this $30 million fertilizer pla nt coming here was o:i such a confid ential nature that it was ce rtainly kept under lock and key in the offic es of our senior offic ials only, up until the time that the announcement was made . And so that would be one kind of thing. Occa sionally we have reports that are made for a ce rtain firm and they will reveal some of the ir information from their books on the unders tanding that it will be done only for them.

I don't know how many there are of those but I would be glad to have my honourable friend see every report that is not a confi dential one and then to suppl y him with copies of any that he would be interes ted in. I indicated the other day in the House that we had in the past year, which isn't the same year that my honourable friend has in the book there , there were some 60 of these feasi bility reports. Some of them run to doz ens , if not hundreds of pag es.

It wo uld be a very large st ack indeed and I'm satisfied that we ha ven't got copies to spa re of all of the repo rts , but if he is interested in any partic ular one, I'd be glad indeed to have him -- I'll provide it for him if I can. So I invite my honourable friend to come and see me. We 'll discuss wh at he would like to have and I will do my best to provide it. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman , I thank the Minister for his offer but I'm in a rathe r unfortunate position of having to earn a living outs ide of my public duties here during the ses sion.

The CNR calls me back, or the wife tells me to get back to work instea d of being in here, and the Minister has indicated that a number of these st udies are quite vo luminous and I doubt very much wh ether I wo uld be able to take his offer. I do have the odd evening how ever at home , relatively few, wh en I ca n dig up a few minutes, partic ula rly if it's raining, when I'm confined to my house, I might be ab le to have an opportunity of looking over the se but the Minister sc ared me whe n he was replying to sa y that , we ll, come on in to the office and we 'll pick them out and they're all here .

I imagine from his indication of the depth of the st udies it would take a cons iderable period of time . MR. EV ANS: ... much to do the st udying there as just look over wh at is there and then he might we ll sa y that , "I'd like to have copies of ce rtain ones" and then I could have them prepared for you. MR . PAULLEY: We ll, maybe Mr. Chairman, I ca n -I presume , knowing the Minister reasonab ly well -- I presume that he has listed here in his annual report almost every one that has been made in order to take a few extra page s.

Ma ybe -- (Interjec tion) -- No, not all but it's typical of my honourable friend. Maybe if I went over the list and suggested ce rtain ones to my friend to give me a cross sec tion of what is doing and if they're the se super-d uper co nfidential repo rts , the Minister may just reject them because I appr ecia te some are of a confidential nature . Maybe if they we re of a confidential they shouldn't be listed here as being done by the department. This of course is a matter for him to dec ide . MR. EV ANS: •.. to show you wh at you get for your money. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr . Chairman , we're at 95 now, are we ?

We ll, on 95 or 96 I would like to have a couple of questions answ ered by my honourable friend and I don 't ca re wh et her he answers them under this item or the next one but I would like to know how many rural develop ment are as have now been procla imed. There was the Interla ke area, I believe , and then I know that about three years ago , an Information Services bulletin ca me out indicating that the Premier had requested a seco nd area to be proc laimed to be known as the Central Pla ins area. I would like to know too ..... MR .

EV ANS: Before my honourable friend gets too far along that line I might indicate that's the Department of Agriculture and not this department. MR . SHOEMAK ER: We ll I thought that they we re so eo-re lated that -- there 's the Region al Development Branch and then under 96 (

d) it says Ca nada-Manitoba ARDA Agreement in here . MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I ca n explain to my honourable friend that the co -ordina tion of the ARDA programs is done through the ARDA project co -ordinator who is in the Depart ment of Agriculture so this pa rticular one you mention is basically under Agriculture rathe r than my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR. EV ANS: We do some work for it. We're sort of hired hands for certain purpos es. MR. SHOEMAKER: We ll then I would like to ask this question.

I notice that in an Order for Return that we received at this sessi on, Order for Return No. 36 , in wh ich the Honourable Member for Assiniboia asked the comparison of the number of automo biles owned by every department as of 1958 and 1964 . I noticed in Industry and Commerce they had six automob iles in 1958 and 16 as of Decem be r, so that's an increase of something like what - - 260 percent ? 210 percenthe sa ys.

Ma y 3rd, 1965 2225 MR. EV ANS: Ten cars. MR. SHOEMAK ER: Ten cars, but perce ntage -wi se . Iknow the honourable members , don't like bringing up statistics in percenta ge points very ofte n but I make that roughly 260 percent and then I notice that so far as the number of employees in 1962 -- we didn't ask for this infor mation -- but 1962 as of December 1964, there was an increase in Industry and Com-:nerce - oh, of about 33 percent or something of that , in the number of employee s. My question is : has industry kept pace in the sa me percen tage points ? Has it gone up 260 percent over 19 58 ?

The n I would like to know too, what did happen in the expa nsion of the Christmas tree indus try, beca use back in 1961 wh en four of the se famous documents we re tabled, I know that this was one of the industries they rec ommended in Neepa wa and Ca rberry and Erickson and Minnedosa and several pla ces, as the major industry for the area -- Christmas tree fa rming. I can't just find it at the moment but I know that it was rec ommended that this wo uld be one of the major industries and I would like to know how it is progressi ng. Yes , I have it now.

On Page 104 and 105 and 106 and 107 and 108 in the book, Eco nomic Survey, Southw est Manitob a. On all of those pages they rec ommend Christmas tree farming and a marketing board for same . And a marketing board for same . I wo uld be interested in wh at my honourable friend -- how this is deve loping. MR. EV ANS: I have no information on the Christmas tree farming busines s. I suggest you ask the Minister for Agriculture. I don't think it's in Mines and Resources and it's ce rtain ly not in my department. Industry has progre ssed in Manitoba to an extent thoroughly jus tified by 10 more cars. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman , I can unders tand how embarrassing it must be to answer some of these quest ions but it was my honourable friend that appointed this -- that set up , I suppose that 's the wo rd, set up this .... MR. EV ANS: .... made recommendations in Agriculture and every other field too. MR. SHOEMAKER: I see , we ll then we will save that for the Minister of Agriculture. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 95 -- passed; 96 -- passed. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman , I'm back at 96 (d) .

I don't know where the honourable members opposit e are but that's whe re I am, and I think the Minister was going to explain what the $26 ,000 under Ca nada Manitob a ARDA Agreement was . MR. EV ANS: We 11 th is branch of our work is under the direction of Mr. Dennis Find lay who is looking afte r the ARDA responsibilities of my department. Anything to do with economic research or things to do with the recr ea tional developmen ts, should they come along in an ARDA area, would be ass igned to my department.

The primary resp onsibility of this officer is to encoura ge and otherwise promote, ec onomic diversity and improvement as a part of the provincial ARDA rural development and resea rch programs. A cl ose working rela tionship with loc al, area and regional development bodies and organizations is a most important part of the work as is the need for cl ose co-ope ration and liaison be twe en Manitoba and Ca nada with respect to resource pers onnel.

Projects such as new and expanded proces sing and manufac tur ing industries , retail and service busi nesses , the tourist deve lopment projects wh ich directly or indirectl y increase emp loyment opportunitie s, are to be inves tigated by the ARDA develop ment consu ltant jointly with local or area leaders and deve lopment organization s. MR. SCHREYER: As the Honourable Member for Gladstone indicated pretty cl ea rly, three years ago the government of this province commissioned several studies of different regions of the province, south-central Manitob a, south-w estern and so on.

To the best of my knowledge such a stu dy has never been made of the east central part, shall I sa y, the eastern part of the province and I would merely ask the Minister if the government intends to have one or two more regional studies commiss ioned and if so, if east ern Manitob a might well be one of them? MR. EV ANS: There is no intention of having a study of exactly the character that my honourable friend from Glads tone has referred to, made in Mani tob a this next year.

I might sa y how ever, that perhap s the model for all this was set in the very ea rly days when south-east Ma nitoba was examined to see wh a t might be done there to increase the incomes of people living there.

Here were people who were eseen tially farme rs , who were cutti ng cordwood to su pplement the ir inco me, and the fores try people told me , because I was both the Mines and Resources and Industry and Commerce in that year, that it would be nece ssa ry to reduce the amount of pulp wood be ing cut; and here then was a sit uation with people of less than des irable incorces in many cases; then we wen cmder the ter rible necessi ty of saying to thJm they coul dn't cut as much pulpwood to supplement the ir incomes and so we had a survey made , on a more

2226 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. EV ANS cont'd) .... limited sc ale than some of the se other things, about what might be done . It was done by the Arthur D. Little people in co- operation with our own staf f but they did come up 'Nith the so lution that if there isn't enough pulpwood there, there is lots of popla r and why don't you make popla r and tamarack and one or two other varieties into chipboard and we asked them how you did that , and they explained it and they went on from there until the factory was estab lished at Spra gue.

And that was an example we th ought of an area survey and from that grew the idea of having area surveys made in other parts of the province. I have no doub t that in due time , it will seem right to go back over the ground again and perhaps make a broader more general survey of south-eastern Manito ba. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman , under 6 (c) , Regional Development Programs , I'm not sure whether I unders tand this correctl y. Does this have to do with the develo pment co rpora tions that we are forming and is this supposed to give support to them?

Is that the purpose for those funds or just what is the program for this year under the sam e? MR. EV ANS: The Regional Deve lopment Bra nch in general you mea n? MR. FROESE: Yes. MR. EVANS: Item 6 (d) , is it ? 6 (c) -- Regional Develop ment Programs . The amounts included here are Regional Devel opment Research, Surveys, Public ations and Community Data Sheets , is the same amount as last year at $10, 000, and Grants to Regional Deve lopment Corpor ations are increased from $12, 000 last year to $3 0, 000 this year.

The amounts last year included grants to the Pembina Valley Deve lopment Corpora tion and we expect that one ad ditional cor poration in 196 5- 66 will be formed in Manitob a. MR. FROESE: M�c. Chairman , can I ass ume then that half this money will go to the Pembina Valley Deve lopment Corporation? Is that it ? MR.

EVANS: Not really, because the grants are made up on the formula which include establi shment grants and some other grants that are larger in the first year than they are in subsequent years , but the maintenance grants will be paid to the Pembina Val ley Deve lopment Corpo ration on the scale alre ady agreed to, but the start of a new corpora tion would include the estab lishment grant in that case. So it isn't exactly even; you'l l unders tand that the estab lishment grants are large r in the first year. MR. MOLGAT: Under this department we have the ARDA agreement.

I notice that in the Public Accounts there is a very substantial amou nt, part of the ARDA agreement -- under that item, for fees. Could the Minister indicate what fees we are paying out in that pa rticula r item ? MR. EV ANS: No, I don't know if my honourabl e friend was here but it was explained that the ad ministration of the ARDA program is under the Depa rtment of Agricult ure .

The amo unts that are included in my es timate are only to cover the services of one of my consulta nts and some of the sta ff who do a good deal of work in kinds of things that are our res ponsibility - the deve lopment of recre ational areas , of tourist resort fa cilities of that kind, any studies that are required for industries or the establi shment of businesses of any kind; but this is only to cover our work really as the hired hand of the Department of Agriculture. MR. MO LGAT: Yes, but under this particula r item, Mr.

Chairman , last year we had an appr opriation of 20, 500 and the Public Accounts indicate that we spent about 25, 000, of wh ich 16 , 000 was fees, iri this department -- (Interjec tion) -- MR. EV ANS: Yes, the Public Accounts would be the year before last. MR. MOLGAT: Oh for the year ending '64. Pardon me . Then there' s a co mparable figure in est imat es. - - (Interjec tion) -- Just a minute, Mr . Chairman . That's right, the esti mates of the year before were 40,000 of wh ich 16 ,000 were fees, so roughly half - I don 't have the Public Accounts for the subsequent period.

I was just curious as to what fees we are paying out of this and for what purpos e? MR.

EV ANS: We ll in the Regional Development, under the item of ARDA, there is a total amount of $26, 000 made up as follows : A full-time Regional Deve lopment Consu ltant $10, 410; sten ographic assis tanc e - no particular amount put down there , beca use the department wo rKs on pooled st enographic resources ; general expenses, inc luding auto expens es, $3 , 090; trade p<:tttern st udy and public ation costs was an item last year, but not this year; in the Interla ke rural deve lopment area, ec onomic survey and community development, there was $1, 000 last year and none this year; recre ational devel opment stu dy of the Inter lake region $1 2, 500 and last year we had the rural Manitob a labour survey wh ich is not this year.

So I've given them to my honourable friend in a rat her co nfusing wa y I'm afraid, but does that cover the general type of work that 's included in this item to make up the $26 , 000 this year? MR. MOLGAT: It doesn't tie in with the amounts that show under the Public Accounts .

Ma y 3rd, 1965 2227 (MR. MOL GAT cont'd) .... I'll admit the Public Accoun ts, mind you, it's the latest one that we have , but it indicates that very large item of fees and I was just wonde ring to whom we are paying fees outside of the departme nt. MR. EVANS: In the esti mates for next ye ar I have no item called fees. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c) -- passed; (d) -- pas sed; Resolu tion 96 -- pa ssed. Resoluti on No. 97 , 7(a ) -- MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman , Resolution 95, what is the policy of the department inso far as the granting of tourist license s?

I know that they have a star rating structure , one star , two st ars and so on. Who dec ides in the first place wh en and if a licence is to be granted? What is the procedure for someone who wishes a licen ce ? What does he have to do? To wh om does he app ly, and who make s the decision? Is it the Minister, or is there a board that does this, or wh at is the system and can anyone who wishes to go into the business, provided that he can show that he is prepared to put up the type of facilities required, is he automa ticall y given the licen ce? MR. EV ANS: No one is autom aticall y given a licen ce.

I think they have to be judged to be suitable peopl e for co nducting the tourist business . The committee is called the Licens ing Authority .Committee and it's made up as follows : The Director of the Tourist Deve lopment Bra nch, the Tourist Deve lopment Officer, a repres entative from Mines and Natural Resources , a repres entative from the Department of Health and a represent ative from the Liquor Control Commission.

The responsibilities of this commiss ion are to cons ider applic ations for licences of transient aecommodation fac ilities and to rec ommend to the Minister the issue or refusal of such a licen ce , in cases that do not have liquor fac ilities. Factors affe cti ng the committee 's decis ion are the character of the prospective operat or , the effect on the natural resources of the area, the standards of construction and the st andards of health fac ilities and so on that will be provided in the resort. MR .

MOLGAT: In the case of someoml being refused, someone who wishes to go into the business and be ing refused, what right of ap peal does an individual have in that case ? MR. EV ANS: We ll a great many cases come to me and I discuss it with the committee and with my own officials. It isn't a formal appeal procedure but that 's the operation that goes'o n. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTO� ' (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Chairman , I'd like to make a comment under the Tourist Development Bra nch to the Minist er, and that is , I think that his department is missing a bet on tourism in that they are not ca tering to a ce rtain segment of high income paople , namely the owne rs of private aircraft. I don 't know if the Minister is aware or not, but in the three States directl y to the sout h of Manitob a, there are more private aircraft than there are in all of Canada and I believe this is a fertile field of income that should be cu ltivated a ce rtain amount and at very little expens e.

For instance the flying weather in the central plains of North America is the best flying weathe r all over the continent and the weekend fLying and fly-ins at conventions that are being attended by peo ple with private aircraft could be encou raged to a greater degree than is at present, I believ e . We know that the flying farmers ha ve , at their own expens e, built a border crossi ng field rathe r, for checking through Cus toms at Haskett, wh ich is on the border and this has greatly facilitated small aircraft ow ners in cross ing the border.

I don't know if the Minister is aware but on eert ain days -- and I'm thinking now of Sundays and holidays -- it has been known that a private aircraft has to pa y as high as $50 to check through Cus toms because they have to call out Cu stoms men on an overti me basis to have the ir pla nes checked or brought in or out of the country , that is on holidays or on Sunda ys. And I think this government would do we ll to co nsider small landing stips at Emerson and oppos ite Rollo, North Dakota, and other points like that, so that the se people could come into our province in an ea sier manner.

Sask atchewan , I know, and North Da.\ota, issue an air map of their Province and of their State , that gives exact details of the types of landing fa ci lities at every town and I think Manitob a should be doing the same thing. When I look at the annual report and I turn to the sec tion under Torust Development, there 's no mention made wh atsoever of this phas e of the tourist industry.

For instance an air map could be put out and it could make special mention of the events that go on in Manitob a and I'm thinking now of the Trappe rs' Fes tival at The Pa s, the Trout Festival at Flin Flon, the Swan .R iver Rodeo and items like this, would benefit greatly if the people to the south of us , and within a radius of 1, 000 miles, were promoted a little bit. Jf copies of our air map were sent to their flying cl ubs and to the ir air fields , I'm sure that we wo uld benefit greatly . There also should be small landing st rips near our provincial par ks. The se people come in, they

2228 May 3rd, 1965 (MR. FROESE cont'd) .... come to st ay, they have money to spend but I know in cert ain instances they can't get very cl ose to whe re they're going. In Portage , and I be lieve it's the only one in Ca nada , the Portage Flying Club own the ir own field and in the hunting season and in the tourist season there 's a ste ady stream of small aircraft coming in, who wish to avoid the large centr es.

At the large centres it's my under st anding that they have to pa y a landing fee and also they're landing quite a ways from the ir des tination and I feel this is an area that the Departm ent of Industry and Commerce could look into and at very little expense could enc ourage anot her cl ass of tourist to come , and a higher inc ome tourist than is the avera ge. MR. EV ANS: My hono urable friend has dra wn attention to a very very good point here indeed and one that we have been trying to give some atte ntion to. I ca n tell him we do have a Manit oba air map that does show the landing fields .

We put it out, the first time -o h sa y, four or five years ago now. I be lieve it has been reprinted and was we lco med at that time. A program to encou rage private aviation, wh ich is the fas test growing part of general aviation, and wh ich also includes government owned aircraft, non-route services of scheduled ca rriers and othe r commercial ca rriers, was recommended to the Thompson Air Enquiry in a supple mental brief prepared by one of our consult at ns.

I would indicate that the policy of developing air fields is one for the Federal Government -- it's completely under the ir control and my under st anding is that some new deve lopments are underw ay in that regard. I have been in touch with the flying farmers over the years and I think my honourable friend is right that there will be a growing traffic ava ilable to Manitob a, of the kind of people with the incomes who are able to spend money for the tourist business. I think his suggestion is a good one. We 'll try to keep it prominently in mind in our pla ns . MR. WRIGHT: Mr .

Chairman , I'd like to sa y a few words on tourist deve lopment . This morning on the radio I heard whe re tourist deve lopment or tourists coming into Ca nada by 1967 will mean one billion dollars to Canada and that seemed to me quite a sta rtling amount of money. I am prompted to rise too by a letter from a friend who gives us -- I was going to sa y, made a complaint, but I think it's more of a suggestion, about our tourist reception centre . He drew my att ention to the fac t that a ci ty like Fort William has a pla ce called Paterson Pa rk - he mailed me a ca rd - showing the tourist recep tion centre the re.

I rea d by the report that 60, 000 visitors from the United States alone , ca me to Manitob a last yea r and the total amount oi money brought by tourists to Manitoba, I be lieve the Minister said was $45 3/ 4 million for last year. Up 3. 6 percent from the prece ding year. MR. EV ANS: $45 million, yes. MR. WRIGHT: Mr . Chairman , I know that we award starts to the different places of acc ommodation in Manitob a for the type of services that they st rive to give the tour ist.

I'm just wonde ring how our recep tion centre in the Legis lative Bui lding would rank if we gave stars for recep tion centre s, espec ially wh en I was looking at the one in Fort William, in the heart of the downtown area. And I do not wish to make any criticism of the st aff , because I think they do a tremendous job here . I think they are very courteous . I've heard many good comments from people co ming in and likewise for the centre at Emerson and the one at the Peace Gard en.

I think they all do their very best to make people we lcome but I am thinking now spec ificall y of a reception centre in the heart of the ci ty, simila r to the one we have here in this bui lding. As my friend points out, did you every try to get a parking space at the Legisla tive Building, and I know that 's a prob lem too. I'm just won dering if the time isn't ripe now wh en we should take a new look at this . Mr.

Chairman, Winnipeg is pretty cl ose to the geograp hical cen tre of North America and beca use it is not the popula tion centre and because all eyes are now turning to our wonde rful northland, I think it's all the more reason why we need to have the best reception centre , per haps on the continent. I think this might be a wo rthy objec tive for our cen tennial year. Our railw ays provide rece ption centres for pass engers co ming in.

We can get information about the YWC A or that can get information about busses and this sort of thing and I would suggest that a reception cen tre for the downtown area be cons idered. And when we were discussi ng the appropriation for the park wh ich is adj acent to this building, down the Memorial Boulevard, I thought that was a wonde rful th ing, rather than have the City Hall there but I wou ld have liked to have seen a recept ion cen tre the re. Now, my friend sugge sts many loc ati ons . In his letter he suggests one on Pembina High way .

He suggests an area that 's owned by the CNR and has never had anything on it and there is

Ma y 3rd, 1965 2229 (MR. WRIGHT cont'd) ..... nothing on it at the present time . It lies between Pembina High way and the CN tra cks. He says a centre there wo uld be quite appropriate and enhance the entra nce to the city. He points out to the large sign on the bridge wh ich sa ys, "Welcome to Winnipeg" a11d figures that the two could go hand in hand . He also suggests anot her site wh ich is on No. 1 Highway whe re it joins St. Anne's Road ·.vith ple nty of ground wh ich I be lieve might be long to the province. And a third site at the Perimeter Highway and No. 1 West.

Now p�rsonally I fee l that the centre should be as cl ose to this bui lding as possi ble . I think th at the attrac tion of this bea utiful bui lding itself is I think a centre , a focal point, wh ere tourists seem to gathe r. The Honourable Member for Portage has mentioned flying and pla ne trips . It is true that in the sout h, people have taken to the airplane much more quickly than we have here and I was thinking of a centre here with enough parking that we could accommodate people who fly here and who probabl y would want to go, say by boat to Norway House, with a place whe re they coul d leave their car.

They could take perha ps a railw ay trip to Church ill, wh ich is something. The parking area would have to be big enough to do this. Now trave l is easier today . It's not only millionaires; there was a time , Mr. Chairman , wh en only millionaires could take a trip around the world or even get a thous and miles from home, bu t this isn't the case today . We're living in a world whe re people are very mobile . 1 think that tourism is going to pla y an even more important

part in the econ omy of our province and I think, too, it makes for better under stand ing in a world wh en we get around amdsee how people do things in other parts of the world. I think in this day and age , whe re people have extended vacati ons , wh ere it's not uncommon now for someone to get a month 's vacation every year, and it is natural he will want to see the rest of the world., I think that first impress ions too are great. I think the first impressi on you get of a place, esp ec ially the friendliness of the people , does have lasti ng impress ion.

I wo uld like to see us try to make Winnipeg the most friendly city on the co ntinent. I think it certa inly could be that . I think that it has a lasti ng effect, just as we heard Mr. Riley sa y that the Pan-Am Games would have a lasting effect on our youth, just as it did in Vanc ouver afte r the British Empire Games there.

I think that as we visit one anoth er, excha nge ideas between the various parts of the count ry, esp eciall y to our friends to the south, that we might cu ltivate our person alities this way and we might enhance our chances of getting along togethe r a little better in this world and I wo uld sincer e ly ask the government to make a study -- it doesn't cost too much to make a study -- of upgrading our rece ption centre here in this bui lding, one that done a mar vellous job but I think that it has now outli ved its usefuln ess . MR. E:V ANS: Mr.

Chairman, ... made a typical speech for him - one that is constructive, and thoughtful and he's done some wo rk on it . He has given us the product of his own toi l. I think it's a very worthy suggestion. The re are times wh en we have wo ndered whe ther the time hasn •t arrived for a new and enlarged reception centre and it then becomes a question of discover ing how to do it. I think - the idea of making a further examination or study of this question at the present time is a good one and I'll give it very serious cons ideration in the coming year. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman , I would like to thank the Honourable Minister for Porta ge to mention the air strip at the U. S. border at Hask ett. The new Cus toms Offices on the U. S. side have now been opened and this will convenience passengers or people riding in pla nes, on small aircraft. They ca n all st op at the U. S. bord er, register through Cust oms , and be on the ir way again . Formerly they had to stop at Grand Forks and Winnipeg.

This will really fa cili tate people getting back and fro and I think this is going to be widely used by private air craft espec ially and by people who own the ir own aircraft and smaller pla nes. So that I hope the Minister of Public Works gets busy and gets that highway dressed up so that peopl e will be able to trave l in ca rs as we ll through that port of entry. I think this will definitely eneoura ge people to come to Manitoba and they can do it on much shorter notice . MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Ca rillon): Mr.

Chairman , in the Tourist Deve lopment Branch, I notice a very interesting page on 101, the number of vehic les entering Manitob a on Cust om permits and remaining two or more da ys. It seems quite natural that the neighbouring Stat es, Minnesota and North Dakota, Minnesota had 14, 000 roughly and North Da.'�ota had 17 , 000; but it's interesting to note that the Central Stat es , there seems to be quite a bit of trave lling going on - for example Illinois with over 2, 500 people , and Nebraska over 1, 000 and South Dako ta over 1, 300, and even further up to Cali fornia, with over 1, 800 people entering.

I was just wonde ring wh at program the government is following in regards to ad vertising. Are these partic ula r Stat es, most of them Central State s, possi bly rece iving more advertis ing

2230 Ma y 3rd , 196 5 (MR. BARKMAN cont'

d) or are we doing more adv ertising in tho se States than in the othe rs or does this just happe n. I wonde r if the Minister could give us any indication as to what kind of program they are follow ing on this. MR. EV ANS: Yes, we have what we call our nine-state area from wh ich we get by all odds the largest part of our business and we try to funnel as much ad vertising into that area as we ca n. It's a varied program .

It uses majo r dailies and medium sized da ilies , newspa pers , in tho se areas , major outdoor magazines and other magaz ines and in the big magazines we are able to buy regional circu lation wh ich finds its subscribers mostly in the area wh ich to my honour ab le friend has descri bed. The n we have a program of sending a booth to the sport shows , five sport shows in the area inc luding such cities as Mi lwaukee and Chic ago -- I be lieve Kansas City, and altogether the re are five of them, and our sta ff goes down there and mans the booth and a very consider able circula tion is achieved in that way .

I think I'v e covered the main outli ne of the program and I could give any amount of detail but I would like to say that this year for the first time we are putting a substantial cam paign in Eastern Canada, having in mind that the Trans-C anada Highwa y is now open and fully opera tive and we be lieve that an increa s ing amo unt of business will come to us from or through Eastern Ca nada, so we are adve rtising in five cities in Onta rio, a $40, 000 ca mpaign down there wh ich we hope will yield us cons idera ble results. In order to measure it we are undertaking an extensive survey of ca rs entering a

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-87
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 87.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9713a2f59a1fa72b106abd52d08f049492121c60

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