Manitoba Hansard — 4 April 2018 (Sitting 27, 41st Legislature, 3rd Session)

41-3-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXI No. 27 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 4, 2018 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Ind. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon.

Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC Vacant St. Boniface

913 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 4, 2018 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Please be seated, and good afternoon, everybody.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 219–The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Inappropriate or Unsafe Footwear) Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Ms. Lathlin) – [interjection]–by the member for Concordia (Mr. Wiebe), The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Inappropriate or Unsafe Footwear), be now read a first time. Oh, sorry. I apologize. Motion presented. Ms. Fontaine: I am pleased to rise in the House today to introduce for first reading Bill 219, The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Inappropriate or Unsafe Footwear).

This bill prohibits employers from requiring an employee to wear footwear that is not appropriate to the protection required for the employee's work or that does not allow the employee to safely perform their work. Employees, often wom en, working in the restaurant industry are sometimes forced to wear uncomfortable and dangerous shoes for prolonged periods of time. This can create debilitating pain for employees and can lead to medical conditions later on. We believe all employees sho uld have the right to be safe and comfortable in their workplace.

I am pleased to present this bill to the House for its consideration. Miigwech. Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Committee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Families): I am pleased to table the Manitoba Families Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2018-19, department expenditure estimates. Hon. Ron Schuler (Minister of Infrastructure): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legisla tive Review for 2018- 2019, the Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Infrastructure. Hon.

Ian Wishart (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pl eased to table report for Healthy Child Manitoba, the Child and Youth Report for 2017. Madam Speaker: Ministerial statements? MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Swan River Water Crisis Mr. Rick Wowchuk (Swan River): Today I rise to recognize the residents an d staff a nd council of the Town of Swan River. In late January, the residents in the t own of Swan River woke to the news that a water crisis was imminent and water conser vation was to begin immediately.

All residents went into conservation mode by cutting out laundry, not using dishwashers, not taking daily showers and baths and flushing only as required. Water consumption dropped from 23 litres per second to nine litres a second, a 60 per cent drop in consumption. The Town of Swan River staff and council worked around the clock to ensure the t own's water supply was safe and the repair would be completed as quick as possible. With the assistance of local merchants, the town had the first semi load of bottled water by early evening of the water crisis announcement, and a water depot was set up and operational.

914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 The t own residents were encouraged to come and pick up cases of bottled water to assist with their daily drinking needs. Many businesses who us e a lot of water voluntar y shut down to conserve w ater for the essential services to a ssist with keeping our hospital and care homes operating with water. Town of Swan River schools were also closed to conserve water. Much was accomplished in a very short time. Over the next few days, more truck loads of bottled water arrived to ensure everyone had drinking water and water for cooking.

The volunteers at the water depot were in endless supply to assist with crisis –with the crisis . Residents drove up, registered, and water was delivered to their vehicles by cheerful volunteers. Our municipal neighbours were on standby and willing to provide water services should the t own of Swan require their assistance in the event of a fire emergency.

This was a job wel l done on many levels by many people, and today I'd like to congratulate t own of Swan River residents, staff and council for their capacity to manage a cris is of this magnitude with grace, goodwill and avoid a bottled water –or a boil water advisory. Well done, town of Swan River. Martin Luther King Jr. Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. L ongevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. Those are the words shared by Dr.

Martin Luther King Jr. on April 3rd , 1968 as he spoke to striking sanitation workers in Memphis. The next day he was shot and killed on the balcony of his hotel room. Today we honour the 50th anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., one of the most powerful leaders in the civil rights movement. Dr. King stood strong for African- Americans, other racialized people and working people.

Along the way, he clearly articulated a vision of standing on the side o f righteousness while showing courage, compassion and an unwavering commitment to doing the right thing, because, as he said, and I quote: T he arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. End quote. His organizing led to civil rights a nd voting rights for his people. He won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work, probably because, though he and his supporters were attacked viciously and violently, Dr. King always held to his commitment to non-violence.

His perseverance inspired many to j oin his cause, but also to many others around the world, including in faith communities and my own uncle right here, who helped to organize indigenous people to gain our civil rights in this country starting in 1965. A few years ago, I had a chance to meet Martin Luther King III , the son of Dr. King. He was a tremendous orator, coming by that honestly, obviously, but above all else, he struck me as a good man. And that's probably the ultimate praise for any of us as parents, that we become parents who raised good children. * (13:40) As Dr.

King said, and I quote again: L ife's most persistent and urgent question is, what are you doing for others? End quote. Today we honour someone who gave their life in the service of us all. Heritage Trust Program Mrs. Colleen Mayer (St. Vital): Madam Speaker, just yesterday, I was honoured to be a part of an exciting announcement for communities all across Manitoba. My colleagues, the Minister responsible for Municipal Relations and the Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage (Mrs. Cox) , announced details of the Heritage Trust program.

Working in partnership with The Winnipeg Foundation, our government will be investing $5 million , over three years, back into the keepers of our province's history, and with a rich-in-spirit history it is. Organizations will have access to one provincial dollar for every two private dollars raised , with up to $25,000 in provincial funding when $50,000 is secured by the local community foundations. With almost 200 museums and 36 archives across Manitoba, we recognize the importance of not only preserving our stories but sharing them with our visitors.

This newly created program will help small- and medium-sized museums and archives create

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 915 endowment funds that will help ensure a sustainable future. Museums are, Madam Speaker, a cherished part of our community. The process of collecting, preserving, displaying artifacts of our history is an invaluable service. It takes a true passion and attention to detail to cultivate this knowledge and protect its integrity. Visitors to our local museums will receive an education on Manitoba's indigenous, environmental, artistic and military history, and so much more. St. Vital is proud to be home of one of Manitoba's many great museums, the St. Vital Museum.

The St. Vital M useum, and historical society, were gracious hosts for the announcement yesterday and a perfect example of why we must continue to support the long- term sustainability of preserving our heritage. Madam Speaker, I w ish to thank all of the individuals who have supported Manitoba's museum and archive community across this province . Your tireless work has helped to establish a lasting legacy for our past so that those in our future will never forget. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Agape Table Mr.

Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I am pleased today to provide an update to the House on an issue I had raised previously, and that is the status of Agape Table, a very –a well -renowned organization located right across the street from the Legislature. Through no fault of their own, their current workspace for 30 years is not going to be available to them for much longer. It's about to become a construction zone, and I've been very proud to be working with members of the board to support them in any way I could, to try and find a new location.

I also want to thank the Minister for Families and the Minister for Finance, because when I raised this issue in question period back before Christmas they both engaged their staff to see if any suitable government building might happen to be available in the neighbourhood. Sadly, that wasn’t the case, but the great news is the wonderful folks at Agape have solved their own challenge and they have a new location lined up with a signed agreement with the Wave Church, located at 364 Furby Street. Best of all, this will only be one kilometre away from their current location.

They plan to do this transition in a way that they don't miss a single day of service to the community and, best of all, it's still in the constituency of Wolseley. I would like to thank all of the great people at Agape Table on behalf of all members of this House for the amazing work that they do.

I'm sure every single one of the hundreds of people and families who take advantage of their free meals ever y weekday would love to be able to come together to share food and fellowship because they want to and not because they have to, and that is part of our task here, as legislators: to help make their world a little bit brighter any way we can. Thank you very much. Member for Swan River–Football Hall of Fame Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade): Madam Speaker, today I rise to celebrate the accomplishments of one of our own members of this Assembly.

Honoring 30 years of coaching football, on Wednesday, March 21st, 2018, the member for Swan River (Mr. Wowchuk) was inducted into the Manitoba football hall of fame. The member for Swan River spent 30 years working with sometimes rough young boys, turning them into disciplined young men, teaching them the strength of teamwork, the celebration of victory and the humbleness of defeat. The member for Swan River began teaching in elementary school. He then taught high- school resource management for 25 years in Swan Rive r and was involved with many other community volunteer positions.

One can hardly imagine, in 30 years of coaching football, how many family events he missed , how many miles he travelled up and down the roads around Swan River. Of course , while the membe r for Swan River was teaching and building football teams, we need to give our respect and thanks to his wife Lorie, who kept their home and family on track. Madam Speaker, our congratulations to the member for Swan River for his dedication to the young people of his community, to his dedication of the community as a whole and for his 2018 induction into the Manitoba football hall of fame.

916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to oral questions, we have the guest–a guest in the gallery that I would like to introduce to you. Visiting from England we have Mike Horner, who is here as the guest for the MLA for Rossmere. On behalf of all members here, we welcome you to the Manitoba Legislature. ORAL QUESTIONS Premier's Vacation Property Luxury Property Tax Inquiry Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, we learned some bizarre news regarding the Premier this morning.

According to media reports, the Premier has failed to pay more than $25,000 in taxes over the past decade. The Premier's company appears on a list of luxury home tax, quote, debtors, unquote, those deemed by the Costa Rican revenue department to be, quote, currently delinquent in the filing and payment, unquote, of the tax. Now, it seems quite clear if a home is worth more than a certain amount of money that the luxury tax has to be paid on that property, but the Premier hasn't paid. He, apparently, thinks that the rules don't apply to him.

Now, even after the Costa Rica government said he was delinquent to file and pay his taxes. Now, Manitobans expect everyone to play by the same rules. I think that's a foundational principle that we all hold dear. But why did the Premier not pay some $25,000 in taxes over the past decade? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): I always pay my taxes in full and on time, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: Apparently not, Madam Speaker. Again, and I quote here, that the Premier's company is a debtor, end quote.

And, again, currently delinquent in the filing and payment of this luxury tax. Now, apparently, the Premier is not able to perform a Google search, because a simple Google search would have indicated that this luxury tax does apply on properties like the one described in the media reports. And, again, couldn't Google the fact that his company was declared delinquent some nine years ago. Now, the Premier has been a publicly elected official for many years, should have been aware of this, has knowledge of the financial industry –again, probably indicating that he should have been aware of this issue.

Now, when it comes to paying his fa ir share, though, he apparently sticks his head in the sand. Now, why did the Premier ignore his obligations for over a decade and why has he not paid his tax? Mr. Pallister: I have a 45 -year record of paying all bills that are presented to me, Madam Speaker, and I'll certainly investigate the veracity of the allegations made in the

article and determine if they're true or not. And I'm happy to do that, and I'm happy to comply with whatever obligations I have, as I always have done in the past and will continue to do in the future. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Now, we know that the Premier's not paid that luxury home tax for over a decade. That's a simple fact. He should have paid the tax. That's not our verdict, again, that's according to the Costa Rican revenue department.

They called the Premier's company delinquent some nine years ago, but the Premier apparently couldn't be bothered to follow up on that finding. Now, again, curious detail is that the luxury home tax is also called the Solidarity Tax for the Strengthening of Housing Programs. * (13:50) Now, paying into the tax is how those who can afford a luxury home in Costa Rica are ask ed to contribute back to help those less fortunate in that country. It's designed to create affordable housing. Now, instead, the Premier has refused to pay it and, apparently, he's tried to hide this from Manitobans over the past decade.

It seems clear th at he owes this tax bill. Will the Premier stop the evasions–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –and start paying his fair share today? Mr. Pallister: I am reluctant to respond in kind, Madam Speaker, and will not.

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 917 However, I would tell the member that I do have a deserved reputation for openness and transparency when it comes to meeting my financial obligations, of whatever kind they may be. So does my family, and so we will do everything we can to fulfill our obligations, whatever country they may be in. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Kinew: Premier has not shown transparency when it comes to the issue of Costa Rica.

First, you know, he gave statements that were inaccurate as to his whereabouts when he was in that country. Again, he only declared his holdings in that country on his conflict-of-interest form after he was–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –found to–well, basically, he was caught and then he declared it on the conflict-of-interest form. And then now we find out again that there is this unpaid tax bill in Costa Rica.

It seems to be a very bizarre set of circumstances, but at the end of the day it just points to the fact that the Premier belie ves that there is one set of rules for him and another set of rules for everyone else, and that's where the rubber meets the road–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –as far as it affects the people of Manitoba, because now many of the decisions he has made in office start to become clear. Why doesn't he believe in a fair share for the Association of Manitoba Municipalities? Perhaps because he doesn't feel compelled to pay a fair share himself.

Now, why does he expect municipalities to pla y by these rules when he won't even hold himself to the same standard? Mr. Pallister: Well, I thank the member for his reference to a relationship we have been building with the Association of Manitoba Municipalities and its members. It was one that was in deep disrepair as a consequence of the actions of the previous government to dismantle fully a third of those organizations on the eve of their annual general meeting without consultation.

The member might like to do a little review of the history of his own party and its actions before he begins to cast stones at a government that is building a stronger working relationship with municipal governments with every passing day. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Manitoba Hydro Rate Increases Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): So it's taken–it took the Premier a year to realize that two months' worth of vacation was not appropriate.

It's now taken him to halfway through his mandate to admit that he should meet with people like the mayor of Winnipeg, like the board of Manitoba Hydro, and then now, after a decade, he decides that perhaps he will decide to pay his luxury tax bill. Now, again, this is very damaging when it comes to the perspective that we should take on an issue like Manitoba Hydro. Again, the low rates that we have for hydro are very important to everybody. Everyone's top concern when it comes to hydro in this province– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Kinew: –is making sure that those rates stay affordable. But it's no wonder that we don't see this Premier standing up and talking about affordable rates in Manitoba, because it simply won't affect him. He lives in a different reality where h e doesn't believe that the same rules that apply to everyone else apply to him. So will the Premier commit today to paying attention to the harm that his rate hikes are doing here in the province and to ensuring that those rates don't go up by some 8 per cent every year? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): The blissful ignorance of the member in respect of the real record of the NDP on Americanizing Manitoba Hydro, on overextending resources with no profit in sight for decades to come is unbelievable, Madam Speaker. The impact of those decisions will be felt by Manitobans on their kitchen tables with the money that will not be available to them to spend for decades to come. We're doing everything we can to effect an improvement in the situation of the fut ure Manitoba pocketbook and we are doing that with a good understanding that having meetings with Manitoba

918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Hydro over a number of years with the NDP resulted in a billion -plus dollars of wastage on the bipole project alone; several billion dollars of extra expenditure on the Keeyask project, which was never approved, Madam Speaker –in fact, their own Clean Environment Commission reported in their recommendations they would not have approved the project had the NDP government not forced the construction of it in advance of approval. This is all to say, Madam Speaker, that the sad legacy of the previous government–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Pallister: –on Manitoba Hydro bills will be felt by Manitobans for a long time. Where they got it wro ng, Madam Speaker, we are very much focused on fixing it. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Premier's Vacation Property Luxury Property Tax Inquiry Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Seems like the Premier is laying the groundwork to privatize Manitoba Hydro much in the same way that he's laying the groundwork to privatize many important health-care– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Kinew: –services in the province of Manitoba. And it's no wonder. It's becoming increasingly clear why he pursues this sort of ideology: because he inhabits a different reality, a reality where he doesn't believe that the rules that apply to everyone else apply to him. So, of course, he allows for the privatization of medical services, for the privatization of diagnostic tests and echocardiograms here in Manitoba, because if health care becomes privatized in our province it will not affect him. Is he concerned ab out the privatization of services in Manitoba?

No, he's worried about a luxury tax on a home that he owns in a tropical destination. There is a mismatch between the priorities of this Premier and the realities lived by everyday Manitobans. Will the Premier reverse his cuts and make sure health care is open to all? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): It's difficult to focus a response to that unfocused prelude, Madam Speaker. The fact remains that the rules that were supposed to apply in respect of things like jacking up the PST, and that Manitobans believed would protect them, were broken by the previous government.

They took away the right of Manitobans to even vote on the issue, which they had committed to at the doors of every Manitoba household they ca nvassed. They had said to the faces of Manitobans: we guarantee we will not raise the PST. Then, they took away the right of Manitobans to have a say in this issue. This caused a rebellion in their own ranks, caused a massive and embarrassing lack of co-ordination on the part of the previous government that we're still going to be paying for and cleaning up after.

So I only say to the member, do a little history lesson before you prelude six different topics in your next question, sir. Premier's Vacation Property Luxury Property Tax Inquiry Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): This Premier pretends to be transparent, but each time there's an investigation he doubles down and we learn more and more. The Premier misrepresented to media and all Manitobans that he was in Canada during the summer flood of 2014 when he was actually down in Costa Rica.

The Premier failed to disclose his holdings in his conflict -of-interest declaration and only disclosed whe n he got caught, and the Premier tried to suggest he was cleared by verbal advice from the conflict commissioner when any reasonable person would know there was a duty to disclose. Now it appears–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Swan: –the Premier has hidden the fact that one of his Costa Rican companies hasn't paid as much as $25,000 in luxury tax over the past years. Why does this Premier refuse to follow the rules? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member has been try ing to ride this horse for some time now, and it died months ago. The fact remains, Madam Speaker, that my public disclosure, in form, was full and complied,

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 919 according to the advice of the ethics commissioner, fully with the requirements. Secondly, on t he issue of the knowledge Manitobans needed to have about my situation in respect of the 30 years of savings my wife invested in a property in Costa Rica, that was fully disclosed long prior to my participation in the resurgence of the Conservative Party i n this province. It was reported widely in periodicals like the Winnipeg Free Press in–as early as 2008 and '09. Madam Speaker, there's no secrets here.

The forms were filled fully; the compliance was full; the ethics commissioner –the accountability advic e I received was fully followed. These personal attacks show a new low for this member. No, not really, they reveal the same low he's inhabited for some time. * (14:00) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a supplementary question. Mr. Swan: Well, Madam Speaker, we're still waiting for the commissioner's letter that I'm sure would clear all this up, but the Premier doesn't seem to want to provide that. It's quite a performance from a Premier who wants Manitobans to believe it's all hands on deck.

He ignored the very clear disclosure requirements that apply to all members of this House, he's failed to be accountable and he's refused to apologize to this House and to Manitobans for his actions. And now we learn the Costa Rican government authorities have raised questions about luxury tax, and they went so far as to list the Premier's Costa Rica corporation among other delinquent entities. Why didn't this Premier obey the laws and the rules that apply to his public and private affairs? Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): We know that this member opposite is no stranger to using these kinds of desperate smear tactics, Madam Speaker. After all, he led a rebellion against his own leader. Madam Speaker, what Manitobans elected us to do was fix the finances, repair the services and rebuild our economy. That's what we will remain focused on. Even though their –they will continue with these desperate smear tactics, we will continue to focus on what's in the best interest of Manitobans. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order.

The honourable member for Minto, on a final supplementary. Mr. Swan: Well, Madam Speaker, New Democrats aren't easy to unify, but this Premier– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Swan: –is sure doing a good job of it, and we thank the Premier for his efforts. And, you know, he can attack–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Swan: –and he can distract– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. The honourable member for Minto. Mr. Swan: Thank you. And the facts are clear, did the Costa Rican company have to self report and pay luxury tax? [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Swan: According to Costa Rican authorities, yes. Did the P remier's Costa Rican company pay? No. His company, and pardon my Spanish, Finca Deneter Doce S.A., didn't pay the luxury tax intended for housing the poor in Costa Rica. We're left to assume the Premier decided that wasn't something he needed to do. That 's just for other people. He doesn't even need to be in Manitoba for more than eight weeks a year or more. That's just for others. Why does this Premier believe that he's above the law? Mrs.

Stefanson: I'm not sure which divided faction the member opposite is representing within his own caucus, Madam Speaker, but I can tell you, on this side of the House we are united as a strong team and, again, we will continue to focus on what is in the best interests of all Manitobans.

920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Premier's Vacation Property Luxury Property Tax Inquiry Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, we know what the member for Assiniboia (Mr. Fletcher) has to say about the strong team on the opposite side of the Chamber here. He said the only substantive issue they discussed after a year was protecting their own salaries. Now, we know that the Premier says one thing and does another. Now, again, he's broken his promise–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –to Manitobans and he's not preaching what he practises. Now, how do we know that?

Well, he claimed he'd work hard for Manitobans, but instead he jetted off to Costa Rica for eight weeks. Yes. Now, the Premier claimed he didn't have to disclose, you know, his Costa Rican companies, but then he did once he got caught. He even claimed in Estimates in 2016, and I'm going to quote here: I don't think there's any doubt as much as t he member might try to make out that I have some kind of a tax haven. End quote. Well, those comments appear in a very different light now that we know that there's an unpaid tax bill, luxury tax bill, laying on the Premier's company.

Why is the Premier saying one thing and doing another? Why does the Premier think the rules and even the–his own statements in this Legislature– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): A lot of the work we've done so far as a government, Madam Speaker– in less than two years –we just introduced a budget which has the largest reductions, coming in the next two years, in personal income tax in Manitoba history. That will put more than $2,020 of additional tax-free income into the hands of each Manitoban in our sesquicentennial year.

This make a big difference to families that are struggling to make ends meet, and I'm very proud of the work of our Finance Minister and our entire team and I thank them for those efforts. Unlike the member opposite, I understand the challenges that households must face on a first -hand level in meeting their budgetary commitments. It hasn't always been an easy thing, but it is something I take seriously and I'll continue to, Madam Speaker. So I say thank you to my colleagues for their success in helping Manitobans find greater success in their own homes and small businesses.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: You know, in the Estimates process last year the Premier was asked whether he thought it was wrong for people to not properly declare or disclose information in order to avoid paying taxes. You know, in response to this question the P remier exclaimed, absolutely. He said it was absolutely wrong for people not to properly declare or disclose information in order to avoid paying taxes.

Now, this is pretty alarming not just that there's this unpaid tax bill in Costa Rica that the Premier apparently has not paid for more than a decade, but here in Manitoba he said that it was all hands on deck as he went and froze wages, as he cut jobs, as he cut health -care services like physiotherapy, as he asked chronically ill and acutely, you know, afflicted people in our province to pay higher and higher deductibles. Why does the Premier believe that there is one standard that applies to him but a different and much more austere standard that applies to everyone else? Mr.

Pallister: I appreciate the opportunity to address the topic of how to help Manitobans have a better financial future and better financial security, Madam Speaker, because it is an area of concern that Manitobans had when they voted in a new government. They were concerned that the previous government was eroding their ability to save, to invest, to support their families, with higher and higher taxes. They did this on the heels of promising not to, of course, as you know, Madam Speaker.

But they broadened the PST, they raised taxe s and fees on a variety of important essential areas for Manitoba in their budgeting, and then, of course, they raised the PST after, again, promising not to do so. So the record of the previous government was one of eroding the security of Manitobans financially and otherwise, and it is not a proud record. Where they made Manitobans afraid, Madam Speaker, we're working very, very hard to make Manitobans feel, quite rightly, more secure and optimistic. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary.

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 921 Mr. Kinew: You know, Madam Speaker, I'm not sure that Manitobans always enjoy paying their taxes, but I think that most people in our province – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –understand that it's an important civic duty, that paying your fair share is an important part of living in this society so that you can help support the creation of strong schools, hospitals, daycares, other things like that, Madam Speaker .

But apparently the Premier doesn't hold himself to the same standard, and that has to disappoint Manitobans, especially after this government asks them to pay higher hydro rates, asks municipalities to start charging more in the fare –in the form of trans it fares–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –and asks every post -secondary student and their families in this province to start paying more and more in the form of tuition.

So it is particularly galling when we have a Premier who is not willing to live up to his own financial obligations and then comes back here to Manitoba and asks everyone else– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Mr. Pallister: Again, the innuendo of the member has to be replaced by fact. I have a 45 -year reco rd of paying my taxes, Madam Speaker, here in Canada and elsewhere, to the full extent of my understanding and my obligations, without exception, ever.

Forty-five years of keeping my word to support my province and my country is not a record the member should unjustifiably attack on the basis of innuendo or accusation, yet he has done that today, and that is disappointing to me, and I know it is disappointing to members of this Chamber who are thoughtful in these–on these issues. * (14:10) And so I would simply say to the member if he would like to compare my record of keeping my word to his own, I'd be happy if he would do that publicly and regularly. Madam Speaker: Order. Social Housing Units Investments Needed Mrs.

Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): The Premier (Mr. Pallister) may be able to skip out on Costa Rican tax that builds housing for the poor, but that's just simply not the Manitoba way. Access to housing is a human right, no matter where you live or how much money you make, but this Premier's budget failed to build one single social housing unit. He failed to even increase the budget by 10 per cent. He failed to build one single housing unit from May 2016 to October 2017. Will this Premier admit that he has ignored Manitoba housing or Manitoba families in need of social housing? Hon.

Scott Fielding (Minister of Families): And supporting vulnerable individuals and Manitobans – having housing solutions is a big priority for our government. We know what the opposition did when they were in government, when they left over $500 million of deferred maintenance on our housing stock. One thing is true with–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Fielding: –that can be said –putting the facts on the record, in terms of our gover nment. Since coming to office we've opened close to 487 different units of Manitoba housing as well as paid for their operating dollars and/or the rent geared to incomes.

Madam Speaker, 40 per cent of that–over 42 per cent of that is social housing. I call that progress. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a supplementary question. Mrs. Smith: It's a good thing that we had those shovels in the ground before this government came into government. We learned–we learn that this Premier–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, order. Order. Mrs. Smith: Miigwech, Madam Speaker. Manitobans learn that th eir Premier ignored his legal duty to pay taxes that build affordable housing.

This is a reflection of his own commitment to housing here in our own province. He refuses to chip in into a national housing strategy that would see $15 billion of affordable housing built here in

922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Manitoba. He has ignored social housing and failed to increase the budget by even 10 per cent. Will the Premier (Mr. Pallister) stop shirking his responsibilities and commit to housing? Mr. Fielding : And, again, making sure that Manitobans have proper housing is very important to this government. This is something that we very much support. In fact, on Monday I'll be going to Ottawa with other provincial ministers of housing in terms of discussions on the national housing strategy.

It's typical of the NDP where they're looking to spend money before we even know what we have or signed onto with the federal government. That is something this government supports and you're going to see more investments in terms of affordable housing for Manitobans. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a final supplementary. Mrs. Smith: We know what their relationship is with the federal –or our federal brothers. They don't work well with them. We don't know how long this is going to take for them to sign–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs.

Smith: When I asked this question last time in this House we heard that he was also going to Ottawa to visit with them, but here we are again hearing the same thing. When are we going to get this money to support the families that actually need it? Last y ear the Premier actually ordered a cut to Rent Assist benefits for hundreds of families. We know that he did it because an extra $100 a month means nothing to him, b ut for families in my constituency that means possibly going and dumpster diving, having to beg for money, exploiting their body. Will this Premier invest in housing? Mr.

Fielding : And making investments, making it affordable for Manitobans to have housi ng solutions is a priority for our government. In fact, since taking office, with the Rent Assist program close to 2,700 more people are supported under our government's initiatives than the former NDP's government. And with the great new budget that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Friesen) introduced, over 600 more people will be supported on the Rent Assist program, Madam Speaker. We are standing with them.

I look forward the meetings on Monday with the federal government to see if we can have even fur ther partnerships, long-term partnerships to provide affordable housing for Manitobans. Island Lake Communities Methamphetamine Concerns Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): Maureen Wood, a young, 32-year-old single mother of two had made a monumental decision. On Wednesday, March 28, she started walking from our reserve to this building. This is a distance of nearly 1,100 kilometres. She is walking this distance to raise awareness of the meth epidemic and crisis in our Island Lake communities. I met up with Maureen in St.

Theresa when she started her walk. Initially, she only had her family by her side. Now she has 24 people with her and counting. Will the ministers of Health and Justice honour her courageous journey with a meeting to hear her concerns of our community? Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): I want to commend each of those community members for raising awareness to what is a very difficult situation in Manitoba and across the country when it comes to addictions, Madam Speaker. Certainly I am willing to meet with this group.

I understand we have Estimates scheduled for after question period. If the opposition is willing to provide some time, I'm happy to meet. I'd even be willing to invite–I'd be willin g to invite the member for Minto (Mr. Swan). Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kewatinook, on a supplementary question. Drug Trafficking Prevention at Airports Ms. Klassen: I'm meeting with them tomorrow again and so I'll carry that message to the m, and I appreciate that answer. The group share horrific stories of how meth has invaded their lives and how it has destroyed and even killed a spouse, a child, an uncle or an aunt.

We have to spend upwards of nearly $30K for someone to enter treatment –to come out here and enter treatment, and this does not consider all costs involved in medevacs paid for prior for these people getting admitted. We want to use those funds to build our own treatment centres or places of safety.

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 923 Having drug-sniffing dogs at the airports would help cut off the meth supply. Can the minister responsible commit today to dedicating such resources at these airports? Mr. Goertzen : Again, Madam Speaker, I'm more than happy to meet with the group when they arrive tomorrow, I unde rstand, and, again, I would invite my critic to join me as well whenever they arrive here in the Legislature. I'd be happy to have that because this really isn't a partisan issue.

I mean, I know, and I think we all know that Manitobans have been touched i n many ways–doesn't matter where they live; it doesn't matter who they are; doesn't matter what their background is; doesn't matter if they're wealthy; it doesn't matter if they're struggling –every Manitoba can–Manitobans can be touched by addiction and I'm always willing to listen to Manitobans who have ideas in terms of how to make the situation better, and I appreciate the member bringing this forward in the respectful way that she has. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kewatinook, on a final supplementary.

Methamphetamine Concerns Ms. Klassen: I appreciate that answer again. Recently, thousands of our Island Lake residents were forced to evacuate their homes due to the wildfire. Residents were evacuated to shelters here in Winnipeg. It is during that time when crystal meth reared its ugly head. Meth dealers were prying – preying on our evacuees by giving them free samples in and around all the shelters, all with the intent of getting them hooked on the highly addictive drug, and, sadly, it worked. We have a full -blown meth crisis tearing families apart not just in Island Lake, but across the province.

We need to come together and work diligently, and I would ask all parties to quit being silent on this issue and help us for our Manitobans. * (14:20) Mr. Goertzen : Well, Madam Speaker, I do appreciate the member raising the issue and raising awareness and I know that all members of this House have done that, and we heard questions yesterday from members of the NDP. We've certainly heard from members in our caucus about the concerns of addictions. That's why I think this really is a situation where we can all come together and share ideas.

We have the VIRGO report, which our department has received and is now reviewing. It took input from Manitobans across the province, as well, Madam Speaker. I don't see this as a partisan issue. I don't think–we might have differences in terms of how the issue should be addressed, but I do think we need to all come together and have that discussion. I am more than willing to have that discussion with the member and members of her community, Madam Speaker. Heritage Trust Program Grant Funding Available Mrs. Colleen Mayer (St.

Vital): Madam Speaker, every corner and every community in this province has a story to tell. Many of these places rely on the dedication and passion of local volunteers who put hours of their time to keep history alive. This work is not without a unique set of challenges and, as you have already heard today in my private member statement, yesterday I was part of an important announcement that will help heritage organizations build their own individual endowment funds to assist in their long- term sustainability, because I believe that this is such a much needed program for our communities.

Can the Minister of Municipal Relations remind the Assembly of the important steps being taken to help these heritage organizations in Manitoba? Hon. Jeff Wharton (Minister of Municipal Relations): I'd like to thank the member for St. Vital for that question. Madam Speaker, our PC government's Heritage Trust Program will provide $5 million in matching grants to be made available to Manitoba's 200 museums, 36 archives in a three -year agreement with The Winnipeg Foundation. Eligible organizations will be required to contribute $2,500 to establish a heritage trust.

Working in par tnership with The Winnipeg Foundation, Madam Speaker, the Province will provide $1 for every $2 raised for an organization's endowment fund. By partnering together we'll ensure museums and archives already working closely within their communities can receive support and continue to preserve our local history while offering educational opportunities to visitors today and tomorrow.

924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Winnipeg Police Board Use of Force Policy Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): Civilian oversight of police services in the city of Winnipeg is an–important in maintaining trust and accountability of our police services. But recently the Winnipeg Police Board decided to abandon its use of force policy. Board chair, David Asper, cit ed confusion around the consistency of the board's policy with those of the Manitoba Police Commission, and he said he would welcome the Province's intervention to clarify the role of the board.

So I ask the Minister of Justice: Will she take action to e nsure that there is no doubt that the Winnipeg Police Board can maintain its own use of force policies? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I appreciate the question from the member opposite. I want to take this opportunity to thank all those members of the Winnipeg Police Board for the incredible work that they do. I also want to thank members of the Winnipeg Police Service, as well, for the incredible work that they do to help ensure that our communities remain safe.

The member opposite will know that the–that we are undertaking a review right now of The Police Services Act, and that process will continue over the course of the next little while and this will be a part of that. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: Other cities across Canada have their own use of force policy. They do so with the co-ordination and co- operation of their respective provinces and other agencies. It's unusual that in this case of the Winnipeg Police Service it has simply abandoned these policies.

Will the minister provide clarity and take action to ensure the Winnipeg Police Board can maintain its own use of force policy? Mrs. Stefanson: Again, I want to thank the member for the question and I also want to thank those people working within the independent investigation unit, the oversight unit, and the work that they do. Again, I want to thank the Winnipeg Police Service for the work that they do. I mentioned in my last answer to the question that we will–that there is a review taking place and this will be a part of that. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. Ms.

Fontaine: Quite obviously we're faced with a contradiction. On the one hand, the minister and the Premier (Mr. Pallister) say that they want more autonomy for our communities, and yet on the other, the Winnipeg Police Board is saying that their hands are tied. It is really quite simple: Will the minister take action to ensure the Winnipeg Police Board can maintain its own use of force policies like other cities across Canada? Mrs. Stefanson : I don't think there's any contradiction about the fact that this will be a part of the review. I mentioned that in my previ ous answers and that continues to be my answer.

Diversity Garden Entrance Fee Ms. Flor Marcelino (Logan): For more than 100 years Manitobans have been able to go to the Assiniboine Park's Conservatory for free, yet recently it was revealed that its replacement, the Diversity Gardens, will charge admission. Public amenities like the conservatory are one of the last truly public places that are accessible for all Manitobans. Will the minister take action to ensure this important resource remains accessible for all Manitobans? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I want to thank the member for the question.

I had the opportunity to go, too, in the final days of the Assiniboine Park Conservatory and have a visit with those –with–a visit with –in the building, and, certainly, Madam Speaker, I'd want to thank the Winnipeg–the–sorry, the Assiniboine Park Conservancy for all the work that they do. We look forward to the indigenous gardens and the Diversity Gardens as well, and I want to thank the Premier and the minister for all their work in this and the money that's going from our government towards that very important part of our community. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired.

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 925 PETITIONS Vimy Arena Hon. Steven Fletcher (Assiniboia): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of–to this petition is as follows:

(1) The residents of Assiniboia, St. James and the greater Winnipeg area and Manitoba are concerned with the intention expressed by the City of Winnipeg to use the Vimy Arena site as an addictions treatment facility.

(2) The Vimy Arena site is in the middle of a residential area near many schools, churches, community clubs and senior homes, and the City has not considered better suited locations in rural, semi-rural or industrial locations such as St. Boniface industrial p ark or the 20,000 acres at CentrePort.

(3) The City of Winnipeg has indicated that the Vimy Arena site will be rezoned from park to commercial use to accommodate the addiction treatment facility and has not sought public input from the community to consider better uses for the facility consistent with a residential area.

(4) The provincial lice nsing system is akin to that of a dentist's office and is clearly insufficient for the planned use of the site by the City and Province.

(5) The proposed rezoning changes the fundamental nature of the comm unity, zoned as a park area. T he concern s of the residents of St. James–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Fletcher: –regarding safety, property values and the way of life are not being properly addressed.

(6) The people of St. James–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fletcher: –are largely hard-working, blue collar and middle -class citizens who are family -oriented toward children and seniors and do not have the financial resources of other neighbourhoods. * (14:30)

(7) This type of facility would never be considered for the popular Assiniboine Park nor for Heubach Park, between –which is between Park Boulevard East and W est, even though it shares the same zoning designation as the Vimy Arena site.

(8) The City and the Province would be setting a dangerous precedent with this , quote, process that could put other neighbourhoods at risk for future unwanted development with proper–without proper consultation.

(9) The Province needs to be inclusive in its decision-making process and improve its programs to prevent drug abuse and better supervise the provision of drug prescriptions that could lead to addictive behaviour. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to take the necessary steps to ensure that the Vimy Arena site is not used for an addiction facility–treatment facility. And it's signed by Mitchell Kingman [phonetic], Keean [phonetic] Broesky, Chris MacPherson and many others, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Tina Fontaine–Public Inquiry Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): I wish to present the fo llowing petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition.

(1) Tina Fontaine was murdered at the age of 15 years old, and her body was found in the Red River on August 17th, 2014.

(2) Tina Fontaine was robbed of her loving family and the Anishinabe community of Sagkeeng First Nation.

(3) Tina Fontaine was failed by multiple systems which did not protect her as they intervened in her life.

(4) Tina Fontaine was further failed by systems meant to seek and pursue justice for her murder.

(5) Tina Fontaine's murder galvanized Canada on the issue of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, MMIWG, as she quickly became our collective daughter and the symbol of MMIWG across Canada.

(6) Manitoba has failed to fully implement the recommendations of numerous reports and recommendations meant to improve and protect the lives of indigenous people and children, including

926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 the Manitoba Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples and the Phoenix Sinclair inquiry. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To urge the Premier of Manitoba and the Minister of Justice to immediately call a public inquiry into the systems that had a role in the life and death of Tina Fontaine, as well as the function of the administration of justice after her death.

(2) To urge that the terms of reference of a public inquiry be developed jointly with the caregivers of Tina Fontaine and/or the agent appointed by them. Signed by Elizabeth Ambrose, Kim [phonetic] McGregor and Joseph Saunders. Medical Laboratory Services Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: The provision of laboratory services to medical clinics and physicians' offices has been historically, and continues to be, a private sector service.

(2) It is vitally important that there be competition in laboratory services to allow medical clinics to seek solutions from more than one provider, control costs and to improve service for health professionals and patients.

(3) Under the present provincial government, Dynacare, an Ontario -based subsidiary of a US company, has acquired Unicity labs, resulti ng in a monopoly situation for the provision of laboratory services in medical clinics and physicians' offices.

(4) With the creation of this monopoly, there has been the closure of many laboratories by Dynacare in and around the city of Winnipeg. Since the acquisition of Unicity labs, Dynacare has made it more difficult for some medical offices by changing the collection schedules of patients' specimens and charging some medical offices for collection services. These closures have created a situation w here a great number of patients are less well served, having to travel significant distances in some cases, waiting considerable periods of time and sometimes being denied or having to leave without obtaining lab services.

The situation is particularly critical for patients requiring fasting blood draws, as they may experience complications that could be life-threatening based on their individual health situations.

(6) Furth ermore, Dynacare has instructed that all patients re quiring immediate results, STAT' s patients, such as patients with suspicious internal infections, be directed to its King Edward location. This creates unnecessary obstacles for the patients who are required to travel to that lab rather than simply completing the test in their docto r's office. This new directive by Dynacare represents a direct risk to patients' health. This has further resulted in patients opting to visit emergency rooms rather than travelling twice, which increases cost to the public health-care system.

(7) Medical clinics and physicians' offices service thousands of patients in their communities and have structured their offices to provide a one - stop service, acting as a health -care front line that takes off some of the load from emergency rooms. The creation of th is monopoly has been problematic to many medical clinics and physicians, hampering their ability to provide high -quality and complete service to their patients due to closures of so many laboratories. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To urge the provincial government to request Dynacare to reopen the closed laboratories or allow Diagnostic Services of Manitoba to freely open labs in clinics which formerly housed labs that have been shut down by Dynacare.

(2) To urge the pr ovincial government to ensure high-quality lab services for patients and a level playing field and competition in the provision of laboratory services to medical offices.

(3) To urge the provincial government to address this matter immediately in the inte rest of better patient-focused care and improved support for health professionals. Signed by Andrew Frey, Julie Beaudin Dyck, Georges Cormier and many others. Madam Speaker: Grievances?

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 927 ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Cliff Cullen (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you call Committee of Supply? Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the House will consider Estimates this afternoon. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) GROWTH, ENTERPRISE AND TRADE * (15:00) Madam Chairperson (Sarah Guillemard): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Growth, Enterprise and Trade. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade): Yes, I do. Our government came into office with a 10-point plan to grow the economy and increase our competitiveness, inspiring Manitoba companies to start here, grow here and flourish in the global marketplace. The trend in Manitoba's 10- year average annual GDP growth has been relatively stable over the last 15 years while the national average has declined.

The province surpassed the national average 10- year growth trend in 2009 and was second highest among the provinces in 2016. According to the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, real GDP growth in Manitoba improved from a low of 1 .3 per cent in 2015 to 2.2 per cent in 2017. The Manitoba Finance Survey of Economic Forecasts indicates 2 per cent growth in 2018 and 1.6 per cent growth in 2019. This compares to 2.3 per cent and 1.8 per cent growth forecast for Canada in 2018-19, respectively.

The global economy's expected to grow by 3.9 per cent in 2018 and 2019, 0.2 per cent higher for both years compared to its previous forecast, and the highest growth since 2011. Advanced economies are expected to grow by 2.3 per cent in 2018 and 2.2 per cent in 2019, up 0.3 and 0.4 higher per cent higher compared to earlier projections. EMEs are forecast to grow solidly at rates at 4.9 per cent and 5 per cent in 2018 and '19, respectively.

Under access to capital, in 2017 Manitoba had a record year for Manitoba businesses, raising equity capital through Manitoba's equity tax credit programs, through public consultations recently concluded, Growth, Enterprise and Trade will be developing an access to capital strategy to align with a framework for economic alignment and growth. We have renewed targeted tax credits for digital media, film and video production, cultural industries, printing and book publishing. We have increased the income limit for small -business tax rate to $500,000 from $450,000, effective January 1st, 2019.

And we have enhanced the Small Business Venture Capital Tax Credit to increase private investment in the province by allowing more companies to qualify as eligible investments and by reducing the minimum investments so that more Manitobans can participate. In the cannabis file, Manitoba will have a local, broad-based, adaptable and ongoing framework to implement legalized recreational cannabis, including a competitive retail market of privately owned retail stores offering cannabis access across the province.

Economic growth strategies: the Look North Steering Committee has hosted a series of round tables in Flin Flon and Thompson on March 14th and 20th, and will continue to meet early in the new fiscal year to develop implementation strategies for the six priority areas identified in the Look North Report and Action Plan.

Advancing on the new mineral development protocol with First Nations co -chairs Ron Evans of Norway House Cree Nation and Jim Downey, former Manitoba deputy premier and Cabinet minister, have met with many leaders and representatives from First Nation communities and industry over the past few months to establish a clear process for Crown-indigenous consultation during all phases of mineral development. Travel Manitoba has released a northern tourism strategy and signed a memorandum of understanding with the Aboriginal tourist –tourism association of Canada to further indigenous tourism development in Manitoba.

Our commitment to the 96- 4 tourism investment plan has resulted in funding increases for tourism

928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 marketing and development of almost $4 million since 2016. The Province is developing a new economic development strategy under the guidance of business and industry leaders to establish a shared vision for economic growth, align efforts and resources, reduce duplication and chart a clear and bold path forward. Consultations will be held with the business community, starting early in the fiscal year.

Manitoba trade and investment: The Canada-European Union comprehensive economic trade agreement, otherwise known as CETA, was provisionally implemented in September 2017. Manitoba Trade and Investment has partnered with Global Affairs Canada to host two seminars, one in Brandon on March 19th t his year and one in Winnipeg on March 20th this year, to promote the opportunities of CETA. Agreement has been reached on the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans- Pacific Partnership, otherwise known as CPTPP.

The government of Manitoba is pleased to have joined the New West Partnership Agreement and the New Canadian Free Trade Agreement during 2017. These trade agreements will provide our exporters with an advantage over their competitors in other markets in these important markets. Employment standards: As a result of amendments to the Employment Standards Code passed by the government on June 2nd, 2017, Manitoba's minimum wage is now indexed with inflation in October of each year, providing businesses and workers with a predictable and fully transparent approach to minimum wage changes.

And the red tape reduction: Boiler, presser – pressure vehicle and refrigeration safety program, the Office of the Fire Commissioner will be moving forward with legislative changes, which will recognize advances in technology and introduce risk-based inspection modelling consistent with other provinces. Recreational vehicles and manufactured homes: Manitoba currently has a unique permit and inspection requirements for recreational vehicles and mobile homes , compared to other Canadian jurisdictions. The OFC has proposed a new framework which will remove these outdated requirements, update referenced standards and

definitions for RVs and manufactured homes and will treat them under separate legislation. Under gas and oil safety, the OFC is working to update reference gas and oil codes, reduce the duplication of services offered by different agencies such as Manitoba Hydro and to reduce the administrative burden associated with unnecessarily and overly complex enforcement requirements.

Under the Building Code safety program, the OFC has proposed changes which will allow municipalities to enter into agreements with qualified, third party contractors to conduct inspections of specified buildings and issue permi ts on behalf of the municipality. Workplace Safety and Health, with the co-ordinated efforts of safety –SAFE Work Manitoba, Workers Compensation Board and others, key stakeholders, the time -loss injury rate has dropped below three injuries per 100 workers for the first time in Manitoba's history. In closing, we are charting a new path to help Manitoba's economy grow.

We have a new vision focused on increasing business investment in Manitoba, because industry and private sector are –is the engine of our e conomy, not government as the engine of our economy. This is in stark contrast to the direction the NDP took, which meant bigger government, higher taxes and opportunities lost. This is not the direction we are taking. Making progress means developing ne w and innovative approaches, such as our Framework for Economic Alignment and Growth. It doesn't mean spending more money on old ways that haven't generated results.

That is what the NDP has proposed and will continue to propose. Going back to the old ways of one-offs and throwing money at problems to buy just enough time to get past the next election is not how we will do things. We're moving Manitoba in the right direction. Our government remains committed to making Manitoba the most improved province i n all of Canada. We were elected to right the ship and we are charting a new course with a focus on long- term, sustainable measures to fix our finances, improve the services relied upon our citizens and rebuild our economy. Thank you.

Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments?

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 929 Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Yes. Madam Chairperson: Mr. Lindsey–the honourable member for Flin Flon. Mr. Lindsey: It's a pleasure to meet with the minister and, hopefully, his staff of Growth, Enterprise and Trade –important department, tasked with leading trade and economic development initiatives in the province, as well as protection for workers. I'll be guided t oday by the changes that have happened in this department since the end of fiscal 2015- 2016. At that time, Manitoba had the second lowest employment rate in the country.

Now it's higher than the Canadian average. There's 5,000 less full-time jobs in Manitoba than there were just one year ago. The Department of Growth, Enterprise and Trade should play a critical role in addressing this. I'm hopeful that the minister can shed light on what action he is taking–or not taking–to address this. Thank you. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply.

Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 10.1.(a), contained in resolution 10.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Pedersen : I have with me today, for staff, I have Dave Dyson, acting deputy minister; we have Melissa Ballantyne, acting assistant deputy minister, Finance and Strategic Services; Michelle Wallace, executive director, marketing sector intelligence and Jim Crone, acting assistant deputy minister, Resource Development. Madam Chairperson: Thank you, Minister.

Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Lindsey–oh, sorry, okay –the honourable member for Flin Flon. Mr. Lindsey: Global discussion. Madam Chairperson: Is that agreed? [Agreed] It is agreed, then, the questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner, with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Lindsey: Can the minister list all of his political staff, please? Mr.

Pedersen : I have a special assistant, Rae Wagner, who's in attendance with us here today, and executive assistant Piotr Stromecki, S-t-r-o-m-e-c-k-i. And Rae –sorry–Rae is spelled R-a-e; Wagner–W-a-g-n-e-r. And while I'm at it, I should probably spell Piotr's first name, too, because you'll probably get it wrong. It's P-i-o-t-r. Mr. Lindsey: Thank t he minister for his very detailed answer and spelling of everyone's name. The printed line from 2016–or, excuse me – 2017-2018 budget and the statement of the line in this year's budget are out by approximately $1.6 million.

I believe that's because the e nergy division has been moved out of core government. Can the minister confirm or explain why there's a $1.6- million change that's not captured in the reconciliation statement? Mr. Pedersen : Yes, you're correct. That's –the energy department was moved over to Sustainable Development. Mr. Lindsey: Would it not be normal practice that that would show up somewhere on the reconciliation statement, or does it just show up in Sustainable Development? Mr. Pedersen : I'll try to explain this.

It was transferred mid -year, and so it was in –because the budget wasn't passed until fall, it was in the restated budget that was eventually passed in the fall. Mr. Lindsey: Okay, so energy was moved to Sustainable Development. W ill the work that they were doing continue, and how will that work be funded? Is it strictly now funded out of Sustainable Development? Mr. Pedersen: That'll be a question that you'll need to put forward to Sustainable Development when they have their Estimates because it was moved from our department into Sustainable Development, so they now carry that file.

930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Mr. Lindsey: So, at the end of fiscal 2016 -2017, the Department of Growth, Enterprise and Trade had over 430 full -time equivalents. At the end of 2017-2018, it was 344. Can the minister confirm if those numbers are correct? * (15:10) Mr. Pedersen: Fiscal '16-17, it was 400.3 FTEs, and '17-18, 344.8. Mr. Lindsey: While I'm just quickly doing some math here, at least down proximately 60 positions? Mr. Pedersen: I didn't realize there was a question there, but, yes, your math is right at 56– approximately 56 FTEs. Mr. Lindsey: Fifty-six, not 66. All right.

So we know that in 2017- 2018 there was a loss of 36 full -time equivalents. So going back, can the minister explain or tell us where all the positions were cut from that add up to the 56 total? Mr. Pedersen : So I can do it two ways. I can provide you with a copy of it; it shows positions deleted. Or else I can read it into the record, whichever you would like. Mr. Lindsey: I think I'd be quite happy with a list. As much as I love listening to the minister, I don't know that I need to listen to the entire list.

But perhaps maybe the minister could just very briefly tell us where the positions w ere cut from, as opposed to the complete list of who. Mr. Pedersen : I–we're just compiling a quick

summary here of sort of the major places where they're from, and we'll get that to you in a minute if you want to go on to something else while Melissa's working on that. Mr. Lindsey: While you're at it, there's a further four full-time equivalents that were cut this year, so the same question, I guess, is: Where were those positions cut from and what functions were lost? And I guess that really applies to the previous question as well: What all functions were lost as a result of the reduction in man–person power? Mr.

Pedersen: So, just going back to your previous question, I'll start out by saying these positions were all vacant and –that I'm going to give you here right now–finance and administration, there was three positions; Enterprise, Innovation and Trade Division, there was 14; in the labour division there was 12.6; and resource development, 14. So that's a total of 36.6. From the previous year, I believe– I'll correct that–[interjection] Yes, from 2018- 19 for the 36 points–[interjection] Okay, and the four that you're talking about are senior management.

Okay, now, first of all, let's clarify: the 36.6 were all vacant. In the four upper management , some of them were–there was people in those positions, and some of them were vacant –of the four positions you asked about. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you, that's all –the 36.6, they were all vacant. So how many vacant positions do you have in the department now? Mr. Pedersen: There are approximately 40 positions still vacant within Growth, Enterprise and Trade. Mr.

Lindsey: So what kind of percentage in vacancy rate are you maintaining, and is that a higher vacancy rate than there was in the previous couple years, or is it lower? Mr. Pedersen: First of all, we're –the department is not mandated to keep a certain number of them vacant or otherwise not filled. There is –and–so there's about an–we're averaging about 8 per cent turnover rate year over year, and this is fairly consistent with previous years as well. Mr. Lindsey: Okay, so you're maintaining about 8 per cent turnover rate.

Is the percentage of vacancies the same, or thereabouts as it traditionally has been, or is that number going up? * (15:20) Mr. Pedersen : First of all, these vacant positions that were eliminated have been vacant for a long time. There's other considerations, too, that all government departments, all businesses face, is that there is–as the baby boomers are retiring, there is a lot of retirements happening and that makes for more staff turnover. And also, on top of that, it's sometimes difficult to fill those positions.

When a person's been in a position for a long time, in order to find that type of experience to fill that position, it takes a while to fill it but we are moving on the vacant positions we've got. We want to fill those. It's just taking time to do it and considering, too, that we have that –you always have that 8 per cent vacancy rate or turnover rate that will create vacancy. You're never going to fill all the positions you have. It's an ongoing process and we're doing our best to fill these.

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 931 Mr. Lindsey: So the 8 per cent turnover rate is a different number than what the total vacancy rate is, correct? Mr. Pedersen : Just for clarity, 8 per cent turnover rate does not relate–does not factor in or does not relate to vacancy rate. Vacancy rate is an ongoing thing; turnover–that we're trying to fill those vacant positions, but 8 per cent turnover is those who choose to retire, choose to move on to a different position, whatever.

That's an ongoing thing, that's been–as long as I've be en in this building, there's been a–you always –and as long as you have any business, there's a turnover rate. That does not relate to the vacancy rate. Mr. Lindsey: I didn't really think that it did; I just wanted to clarify with the minister because my initial question is what percentage of vacancies do you presently have in your department.

You talked about there being 40 positions vacant at the moment, but what percentage vacancy rate do you have and is it similar to the vacancy rate that was in place last year or the year before, or does that number gone up, gone down? Mr. Pedersen: So, if we have three–and I'm going to round the numbers, so they're not techni cally correct, but if we have 340 employees, or 340- odd employees, we have 40 still vacant that we're looking to fill. That's about 12 per cent of our total positions are vacant right now and that's what we are still continuing to fill, not talking about t urnover rate.

So we separate the two. Mr. Lindsey: And just to clarify, previously you'd said you would supply a list of the positions that had been cut, that you'll supply that still? Mr. Pedersen: I'm sure we'll be able to get that to you. I don't know about today, but I will get it to you before the Estimates are over, for sure. Mr. Lindsey: Thank the minister for that commitment. So, numbers–it seems that there's somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50 full -time equivalents that haven't been accounted for between 2018- 19 and 2016-17.

Can the minister explain where these approximate 50 full -time equivalent positions are gone just based on the numbers as presented? Mr. Pedersen: You'll have to run those years by me again so that I –that we can –I'm not following you there. You'll have to give me the years and give me your numbers–employment numbers there. Mr. Lindsey: Okay, so now I stand to be corrected. Some of these numbers may have been changed already. So if there were 430 full -time equivalents in the department in 2016- 17, now there's 341 that – we've talked about 36 and four, so 40.

So I am corrected, it isn't 50 that are missing, it's 10 positions that seem to be unaccounted for. Mr. Pedersen : I have full confidence in my staff that they'll find those 10. It–when we do those–when we get these numbers for you here we should be able to answer –have that question answered, too, about these other 10 positions, but Melissa and staff will get those numbers for you, and if, when she brings back those numbers, if you still have questions on it, then we'll gladly dig into it then. Mr. Lindsey: I thank the minister for that, and, yes, I look forward to seeing those numbers and the clarification.

So, let's–can the minister –I guess we've already covered that off, so let's just switch gears here for a minute–well, maybe not. So we know, and you'll have to forgive me because– An Honourable Member: You're forgiven. Mr. Lindsey: Thank you very much. So we know that you're running approximately 12 per cent vacancy rate, so how many vacancies are there in each division in full -time equivalents as opposed to the total overall? Mr. Pedersen: We'll get that breakdown for you of each division of vacancies that–you're talking current vacancies, correct? Mr.

Lindsey: Yes, the vacancies that are to be accounted for now. * (15:30) Mr. Pedersen : So what we will get you is the full-time employees, FTEs, for each division, and then we'll give you the vacancy rate of each division also. Mr. Lindsey: Okay, once we get all the things that you're going to supply us, then we may come back to this, and I'm sure we'll have more questions as your answers will– So, okay. So the government estimates that between 1,500 and 2,000 jobs are going to be lost in northern Manitoba over the coming couple of years. So let's

932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 talk about some financial assistance programs that are or were available. How many loans and what total value were approved by the CEDF in 2015- 2016? Mr. Pedersen : So I'm reading from the CEDF annual report 2017, which is a public document which you can get access to or we can give it to you at some point. The–now, they go on calendar year. They don't go on the same fiscal year as government. So they are–so for 2015 I've got seven point one seven– $7 million; 2016, 5.77; 2017, 4.452. Now, that's loans.

Then there's the fishery loans: for 2015 is $3.563 million; 2016 is $3.956 million–excuse me– and 2017 is 3.606. As I said, this report is public information. You can get this, and remember it's on calendar year, not on government fiscal year. Mr. Lindsey: So, the different loan streams are recorded differently. The fishery loans are reported differently than other business loans. Mr. Pedersen: Yes. Mr. Lindsey: If he could just run through the numbers and years again for the fishery loans, just because I can't write as fast as you talk, apparently. Mr. Pedersen: I'll slow down.

For fishery loans for calendar year 2015 is $3.563 million. Actually, it's three-point-five-six-three, three- hundred-and-two– $3,563,302. For 2016, it is $3,956,817 and for 2017, it's $3,606,696. Mr. Lindsey: It's my understanding is that the –there hasn't been any loans other than fishery loans for 2017. Is that correct? Mr.

Pedersen : So I gave you the numbers for calendar year, but, as part of our economic development review, like many of our other economic development programs, it has been on hold since–I'm going to say mid - to late 2017 while we're doing our review and we are –this is part of –it was part of the Deloitte study that looked at this and it's part of Dave Angus and Barb Gamey's review – consultations that were developing our new economic development program and CEDF will –I feel confident that it will be –there will be some sort of economic development program for the North, whether it's in the current form of CEDF is what we're trying to figure out right now and moving forward we'll know, but we realize the importance of the program. * (15:40) Economic development is important across the province, and it's not just the south; it's the North too.

So we realize that, we realize the importance of it but we need to get it right and make sure that we've got a working model. Mr. Lindsey: So if I correct–initially, the amount of funding that the government supplied to CEDF went from $7.7 million in 2015- 16 down to $4.5 million, approximately, in 2016-17. So that's like 30 per cent cut. The fisheries part, I understand, stayed more or less constant, but now that entire amount is on hold under review? Mr. Pedersen : So I just –more clarification. The fisheries loans are not on hold. They continue.

The loan portfolio is–has been on hold since mid- to late 2017, but the loans are still out there. The existing loans are still out there. So it's operating, just on a reduced scale right now. Mr. Lindsey: So I understand, the loans that had been previously approved prior to mid - to late 2017 are still in the works, but there's been nothing new approved since mid-2017. Mr. Pedersen: That'd be correct. Mr. Lindsey: So, do you have a sense of how much the CEDF underspent in previous years, as opposed to the budgeted amount? What amount did they actually spend? Mr.

Pedersen : So the CEDF operates –we supply operating funds. The department of GET supplies operating funds for the operation of CEDF. The total amount of money that they'd have available to lend out comes under the loan act, which goes under the Department of Finance and through Treasury Board. So I don't have those numbers for you. What they were–as, for instance, in a –under program objectives –and this is, again, for the calendar year 2017, lending activity, $4.5 million annually. New lending activity during 2016- 17 was 3.6, a slight decrease from 3.95 in 2015- 16.

And we don't have 2018 numbers yet because their report will come out probably this fall for 2018. Mr. Lindsey: Right now, to–the fund is frozen or under review, whatever term it is we're using, so

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 933 there is no new number. That's just carry -over from the previous allocation. Is that correct? Mr. Pedersen: That's correct. Mr. Lindsey: Okay, and let –I understand that the government funds a certain portion of CEDF, but it's that portion that really has cut in this budget that you've presented. Am I right, or am I off track, there? Mr. Pedersen : Previous year, operating for CEDF was $1.43 million –$1,430,000. It has been reduced to $1 million for this current year. That's in operating.

So that is separate from their loan act and capital borrowing–lending activity. Mr. Lindsey: So, what type of things, then, have been cut in the operating end of things? Mr. Pedersen : As a Crown corporation, CEDF operates independently.

We will work –we are working with–the department is working with CEDF to manage that reduction in ope rating funds, and we are in constant communication with them to manage that. * (15:50) And, again, I want to stress that this is while we do our economic development review, and I can't say right now whether it will remain the same or whether it'll be in creased or what will happen to it until we bring out–you'll see what happens to it once we bring out our economic development plan.

But we realize the importance of this because it does a function–a good function in the North and as an economic development agency in the North. And we continue to work with the board and staff of CEDF. Mr. Lindsey: So all we know at present is that CEDF has been mandated by the government to reduce their operating budget from 1.43 down to approximately $1 million. Mr. Pedersen: That's correct. Mr. Lindsey: So we don't yet know where any of those cuts are going to take place, but you're saying that it may not have any effect on the amount of money that's loaned through the program.

That comes under a different budget that we would have to ask at Finance as opposed to asking here. We just know that for however they choose to do it, they have less money available to operate, so to pay wages, to travel, to do whatever it is they do in the process of approving loans for busi ness, particularly in the North where things are somewhat of a problem at the moment. Is that correct? Mr. Pedersen : So this is a reduction in operating funds, so, yes, they will manage, and they will manage on less money for this year. And you're corre ct again in separating out from the loan activity.

That you'll have to go to Finance for, for the loan activity. But this is operating funds only. Mr. Lindsey: Well, we do know that the whole program is frozen or under review, stalled, not distributing any money at the present time other than money that was already previously committed. Mr. Pedersen: It's only the business loans that are – that have been frozen for now. The fishery loans continue as –and again, I can't give you what the current fishery loans are because they're in their fiscal–or they haven't submitted their fiscal year results yet. So this is –yes, the CDF continues to operate. Mr.

Lindsey: Thank you for that. I guess I kind of look forward to seeing what kind of things that they may be funding in the future, particularly when we know that things in the North are in somewhat of a difficult period at the moment, that anything that can be done to spur economic activity, I hope we're going to continue to look at that, that it can't be frozen f or too long. So do you have any idea of when the review of this process will be complete?

Madam Chairperson: I'm going to advise all members who are here for Estimates to please have their conversations away from the table, as it is disruptive to the conv ersations happening. Thank you for your co-operation. Mr. Pedersen : So I think the member needs to realize that CEDF is not the only economic development tool out there, and all across the province we are reviewing our economic development programs to m ake sure that they work across the province and that includes the North. So CEDF is not the only vehicle for the North.

We still have our venture capital tax credit program that we are doing and access to capital outreach right now. I, for a moment, will not short sell northern entrepreneurs that they can access capital the same as anybody else. Don't sell the North short on their ability to go out and create business and to be able to do business.

934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 CEDF has played a role in that, it will continue to play a role in that, but it's not the only vehicle and it's–we are going–as to time frames, we realize that we need to get this up and running as soon as possible. That's, again, what Barb Gamey and Dave Angus are doing is we're getting input.

I encourage you to–when you're in your home constituency, and we will encourage people all across the North to make sure that they are able to provide input to this outreach group and that when we are designing the new economic development program, it works for all of Manitoba, whether it's in the south, whether it's in the Capital Region or whether it's North or wherever you are in Manitoba.

So I'd –I have a little more confidence in the people of the North than I guess than the member does that they do have that entrepreneurial spirit and we've seen that from our Look North outreach, that there is lots of potential there in tourism, in home-based businesses.

We made–just one of the small changes we made in–as a result of our Look North outreach right away was prior to this you could not –if you were in social housing, you could not start–you could not run a home-based business out of social –if you were in social housing, and Churchill, you know, or any of our northern communities, with the amount of social housing, it was a discouragement from those who have that good idea in their home to be able to go out there. Are they going to be able to make a living at it? Maybe not right off the start, but it's a hand up to them rather than a handout.

So there is lots of potential here and we're going to continue to work with all Manitobans. Mr. Lindsey: Okay. I'm glad to hear you're going to continue to work with northern Manitobans and all Manitobans. I hope you're not suggesting that home -based businesses are going to take the place of industry in providing employment opportunities and future opportunities for, particularly, people in the North. Mr.

Pedersen: Well, of course not, and at the same time I hope you're not discouraging home -based businesses, because not every–there's not going to be a factory moving into every town to provide widespread employment, but if there's an opportunity for a person living in their home, be it man, woman, teenager, whatever, if they see an opportunity to start a home-based business but they are living in social housing, this gives them the ability to start that. Social–home-based businesses is just one small entity of this.

We've got tourism; we've got mining opportunities; there's lots of opportunities coming in the North that we need to work on. If you're going to sit back–the member wants to sit back and wait for a job to suddenly appear for them. It's–that's a difficult thing. We're encouraging people to go out and see k business, seek employment, and we're doing our best to be able –that they have those opportunities to be able to do that. * (16:00) Mr. Lindsey: The minister takes great liberties with things I've said in his

interpretation of what he thinks he heard. Ce rtainly, I never once suggested that people in the North were going to just sit and wait for a job to magically appear, so I take exception to that remark. But, moving on, let's talk about mining for a minute or two. Can the minister explain to us things like the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program and the Prospectors' Assistance Program? Are those grant levels remaining the same? Are they frozen?

Do prospectors and exploration companies know where that grant money is at the present time, and I understand from going through the Estimates books and stuff that it comes out of a different fund so it isn't actually accounted for in the documents we have. So could the minister clear up any information or provide information on those particular grants and on what we can expect to see, what exploration companies and prospectors can expect to see this year? Mr.

Pedersen : The 2017 mineral exploration community–Mining Community Reserve Fund is still there for 2017 and, as all other programs, it's being reviewed right now for 2018. There will be submissions for it and there's not been decisions made yet for 2018. Mr. Lindsey: Did the minister have some more he wanted to say on that? Mr. Pedersen : So mining exploration and Prospectors' Assistance Program –there's too many acronyms in government, but –and the Prospectors' Assistance Program are in place, or have been in

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 935 place for 2017 and they're–we're evaluating them for 2018. Mr. Lindsey: So we're into April of 2018 and those exploration companies or prospectors don't yet know if there'll be any of those funds available or, if so, what levels the grants would be? Mr. Pedersen : The program has, in the past, been decided by June and it will be the same for this year. We'll know by June just as –same as it has been in other years. Mr. Lindsey: Thank the minister for that.

Are there other things that could potentially be in support of mining that are presently either under review or had their budgets cut? And I'm thinking like the geological surveys. Mr. Pedersen: The member mentioned the geological survey, and that is the same as the mineral exploration and prospectors. That program is under review also, and we would have a decision by June. The other thing I'd mentioned–and member's from Flin Flon, he knows the mining industry probably better than I ever will, but , at the same time, we know that mining is a long-term endeavour.

We also know that a couple of fact ors–I'll just remind the member gently that it was not exactly a favourable regime over the last number of years for mining, plus the fact that we went through a downturn in mineral prices, and–which certainly didn't help encourage exploration–prospecting exploration, mineral development. So–but we have our Look North round table that was–still recognizes mining as a tremendous potential of the North.

We have our mining protocol with Ron Evans and Jim Downey that are doing the outreach with our indigenous communities so that when a mineral –right from the prospector to the mineral exploration company, long before a mine is even, you know, feasible to develop, we have these protocols in place to work with indigenous communities who are in very close proximit y to these–to this. I know it's–and again, we've managed not to–the member and I have managed not to get in too major a spat yet this afternoon, and we're only an hour and 10 minutes in.

So I'll try to say it gently, but there's a lot more than just subs idies that we can do for the mining industry in the North. You know, it starts with having our provincial debt under control so that our taxes –we can continue to reduce our taxes. We raised the basic personal exemption in this budget. That helps the people –no matter where you live in Manitoba, no matter what your occupation was –is, it helps them.

We're going to reduce the PST in the next –within the next couple of years, which is going to help mineral companies and consumers alike. * (16:10) I was really encouraged–I went to Toronto with some staff here a month ago, I guess it was, to PDAC, which is the Prospectors and Dev elopers Association of Canada. Boy, I got that acronym right. We met with, I think–and if the member would just give me a half a second here, I can tell you how many meetings we actually had, because I've got it in here somewhere. We met with a lot of mining companies, a lot of mineral exploration companies.

We met with some prospectors. They're quite excited about Manitoba and, you know, and it was really good to see this. What they were asking for –they weren't asking for subsidies to come. What they were really asking for the–whether it's a mining company, whether it's an exploration company, whether it's a prospector, what they're ask ing for is clear rules as to what it takes to develop, to look for a mine site, to develop a mine site. And that's where we're going with this in getting our fiscal position under control and with the mining protocol, which will be huge.

And I'm running out of time, and I could talk endlessly about the really great conference we had in–that I was at in Toronto. Thank you. Mr. Lindsey: I wasn't at said conference. I have talked to some people that were there that had a little different take on their meetings with the minister, but so be it. People have different opinions of how things are going. But I really think, when I've talked to mining people in the North, is really what they're looking for is, you're right, some certainty, but they need to have some of that in place so that they know, can they go out and do the exploration.

And right now, with everything being under review or frozen, they're not sure where that's going to leave them at the end of the day, so they're seeing opportunities elsewhere. For example, I'm sure the minister's aware that Flin Flon is a border community and there are exploration potentials on the Saskatchewan side, as well–which, at the end of the day, if a mine gets developed outside of Creighton, it's still good news

936 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 for Flin Flon–but the Saskatchewan government has, in fact, created a fund to invest in some exploration opportunities which people in the area are quite excited about and they're actually got some drills turning as a result of that.

So I guess I'm just asking for the minister to make sure that mining industry people understand that things like Mineral Exploration Assistance Program and the Prospectors Assistance Program aren't going to be cut, that those –grant money from those programs will, at the very least, be maintained at the level they're at and, hopefully at some point in time, increased so that we can encourage more exploration within the province. Is the minister in favour of at least–or is he willing to commit to at least maintaining those grant levels at the level they're at now? Mr.

Pedersen : One of the meetings that we had when we were in Toronto at PDAC was with HudBay, and we had– and we've met with –actually, my department, my staff has met with them a number of times. I've met with HudBay a number of times, too. We met with them in their Toronto headquarters, and they were cautiously optimistic that they'll be able to keep the operations running in Flin Flon. They're–the 777 mine is closing; that's coming, they know that. They've got mines running at Snow Lake. They're fast -tracking as much as they can exploration in that Snow Lake area –in the Flin Flon area.

Again, it is –this is where government can be of assistance to them to make sure that those permits are issued for exploration, that –and HudBay has a very good relationship with the indigenous communities around Flin Flon; you would know that, yourself. So we don't expect that to be an issue for HudBay. They're looking at some other alternatives which is confidential right now so I can't t alk about that. But they're doing what they can to keep Flin Flon going, the zinc smelter going in Flin Flon. And so we're cautiously optimistic that they will be able to keep going.

We realize the impact that it has on the Flin Flon community and on the N orth in general, but that's just one example. You know, we're talking–we've also–in regular conversation with Vale in Thompson, and there's issues happening in Thompson. We're very well aware of those. But it is–there is a lot of things at play here, and it's not just about what can government do to subsidize them to keep in business. And that's what we are– yes, we realize the importance of the, you know, the programs that you mentioned.

So we're–you know, another issue that we've got and we are dealing with that we have to deal with is land tenure. We need to have a consultation process that's–that is predictable between the government and the First Nations, and we're working on that. And that's been one of the biggest stumbling blocks to mineral exploration and mineral development in the North, and we will continue to work on that. Mr. Lindsey: Thank the minister for the answer.

Unfortunately, I guess I didn't hear that you're committing to maintaining those assistant grant levels at the existing level, which is really what a lot of the smaller players are concerned with. And, certainly, I've had meetings with HudBay, as well, and met with the mining association and they have many things that they would like governments to do for them. Some things, of course, I would agree with and support–other things, yes, maybe not so much. I'm not a fan of governments just giving money to multinational corporations.

However, if there's things that we as a government can do to increase exploration opportunities which then keep those mines or those process facilities operating, even if it's a different mining company feeding product into those zinc refinery or milling proc esses. So, again, I'd ask, is the minister pr epared now to make a commitment that those exploration grant funds will remain at least at the level that they were at last year? Mr. Pedersen : My commitment is to review the programs, the same as it's been done every year, and have a decision by June. Mr. Lindsey: I thank the minister for that.

It's getting somewhat later in the day, and before I turn things over to my colleague from Burrows I'll try and get the minister a little more worked up so her life is easier. Let's talk a little bit about the En terprise division. Seen a reduction this year, and could the minister just give me a little better sense of what exactly it is that–what services that division provides? Mr. Pedersen : Reading from page 29 of your Estimates book: it "provides services and financial support to create new companies and assist existing firms to expand, grow and innovate.

Appropriate supports are provided to companies tailored to their

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 937 stage in the business life cycle, ensuring the companies receive fair, consistent and account able responses to their requests for economic development assistance." * (16:20) Mr. Lindsey: I thank the minister for reading that out to me. I've read the same thing. So, the whole point of it is to provide assistance to businesses to either grow or get started, to things like Entrepreneurship Manitoba. So, then, when I look at some of the items in the budget –business financial support that goes from, I believe it's approximately $11 million down to about $6 million.

So that's less money being provided to allow things that the core mandate of the Enterprise division is really supposed to be doing. Is that correct? Mr. Pedersen: On page 31 of the Estimates book, if you’re there, okay, you're –you were talking about business financial support. You're talking about gross dollars, this goes from 11 million down to 6.6, but what you need to do is look at net. These are loans that are out and it's the business support that's been– these are loans that have been paid back.

So, really, the difference between 20 17-18 and 2018- 19 is approximately 100–a little less than $100,000, probably $97,000. That's the net difference. Mr. Lindsey: So, if I'm correct, in 2016- 17, the annual report, the Business Financial Support was $7.5 million underspent and the Commerciali zation Support for Business program was also underspent by $2.2 million. Can the minister confirm that those in -year reductions and that a pause on those levels of support has now been made permanent? Mr. Pedersen: I have to kind of chuckle when the member keeps going back to 2016- 17.

If they hadn't been quite such an infatuation with talking to the Premier (Mr. Pallister) for hours and hours and hours last fall in Estimates, you may have actually got to get and had an Estimates process. We could've deal t with it, this get– Estimates book but, all right, so we're back here anyway. So, again, you have to look at the difference under sub- appropriation. It's 1.8–$1,816,000 under. But, again, that depends on the principal payout

schedule for them. And just because it's less doesn't necessarily mean it was less money spent or less money lent out; it's the repayment schedule. And it's–and under industry development, it was $2.207 million less for 2016- 17, and that was as a result of our economic development rev iew at the end of the fiscal year. Oh, am I still on? And if I go to–this one, yes. If I go to–again, page 31, Commercialization Support for Business for 2018-19. First of all, 2017- 18 was $2.148 million, and Estimates of Expenditure for 2018- 19 is $2.148 million.

So it's exactly the same for this year from 2017-18 adjusted to estimated expenditure for 2018-19. Mr. Lindsey: But the question is, yes, there was money budgeted, but then there was substantial amount underspent. So, now, if the same amount of money is budgeted but again being underspent, does that leave that money now not available for what it was available before? Or is it ongoing that you budget a certain amount and have no intention of spending that amount? Mr. Pedersen : First of all, just to clarify for the member, we do not deliberately budget high and spend low.

That is –may have been the practice of the previous government. That it is not a practice of this government. So what we're –when we put a projection in, that's what we intend to spend in–and '18-19– Sorry for that interruption, but it was –again, the member keeps wanting to go back to '16-17. And it was budgeted at approximately $5 million. It was approximately $2 million spent. But that was because we put it on pause while we' re doing the review. We want to get this right and we will. That's not to say it can't go back there.

We need to make sure that the money that we're spending on economic development is getting a return on investment, not simply just putting a number out there and spending the money with no idea whether we're going to get an economic return on it. Mr. Lindsey: So in the adjusted budget line for that department–the Enterprise department –it was $28 million in 2016- 17. Today that number is just over $18 milli on, a reduction of approximately $10 million. So can the minister explain what services have been and will be reduced in order to achieve that $10-million approximate cut? * (16:30)

938 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 Mr. Pedersen: So it's the same answer, really. It's – there was reduction. You're correct in seeing that over the two-year period from 28 to 18. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to stay there. The programs are under review, and we need to make sure that we're getting it right. Now where the budget will go for next year, we will wait to see where our economic review comes back to where we're getting the most return, and then we can build from there. Mr. Lindsey: So the minister has confirmed that from 2016 to now there's $10 million less in that budget.

So clearly something isn't happening that was happening before, or something is happening a whole lot cheaper than it was happening before. So could you clear up for me what services have disappeared or what's been cut, what's not happening that was happening before to get us down $10 million already? Mr. Pedersen : I'll try to explain it again to the member. This is basically grant money that was going out to some 83 different agencies. When we took over government and we –and this is what the Deloitte study found, this is what we found working in– looking through the department, that there was duplication.

There was –organizations that were going to various departments and getting grant money. So what we did is, we said let's stop, let's take a look at this. We reduced funding to some of those agencies that were getting multiple sources of money. There was other agencies, and I'll very proudly say that they went out –we reduced their funding, they went out and f ound private funding to match what they were getting before and it's business as usual for them, only –it's only better business than usual because now they have input from the private industry that they're working with anyway.

So it's grant money; it's not operational money that was reduced. Mr. Lindsey: I get it. It's grant money that's been reduced and some entities have potentially picked up loans or whatever somewhere else. So could the minister give us an idea of what entities have had their grant money reduced or done away with? Mr. Pedersen: So we're talking about grant money to different agencies. You're asking for examples. Canadian manufacturers and exporters is one of the groups that we reduced funding to. Canadian manufacturers and exporters is made up of companies who–private companies who do exporting business.

And what we were doing is we were paying them to operate the organization overseeing them. They have managed quite fine. We continue to meet with the CME. I was just at their awards banquet here a few weeks ago. The industry is very satisfied with this government. There–so, there's not– so, there's an example of an organization that we reduced funding to and, yet, they still managed to carry on business as usual.

In fact, th ey had a request to us to–for some money for a trade show that they were putting on, and we–and when I said no to the manager, he just turned around and said, okay, that's good, we can– we'll manage. Doesn't hurt –I guess it never hurts to ask for money. Looking at some of my colleagues down the row, here, they're pretty good at asking for money from people. So we know that can work. Another–[interjection]–well, we believe in private enterprise. Another one that we've–that we reduced funding to is a group called Futurpreneur. They are out – they're helping mentoring small start -up companies.

When we reduced their funding, they turned around and got private money to maintain their budget to where they are. So they're doing very well, too. Life Science Association of Manitoba, which is now known as Bioscience Association of Manitoba – they've changed from LSAM to BAM, is their new name–they have also –we reduced funding to them. They have also gone to the industry and maintain their operations as they were before. There's three examples of how –and the list goes on.

As I said, there was something like 83 different agencies that were coming just to GET, plus the ones that were going to many other departments such as education, Municipal Relations, indigenous relations, culture, heritage, sport. I –you know, they were very good, and good for them for asking, because they went out and asked. So they –but the trouble is they were going to government departments to ask for this money. Now we've got them going to the pr ivate industry and maintaining their organizations. And we think that's a win for everybody.

April 4, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 939 Mr. Lindsey: At this point in time, rather than going down another rabbit hole with the minister, I'll turn the questioning over to the member from Burrows. Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): I'd like to thank the member from Flin Flon for permitting me 21 minutes to ask some questions. I will take it, yes. So my first question is: this government expects a slowdown in our average growth. Can the minister provide an estimate as to the extent of growth Manitoba will experience in the foreseeable future? * (16:40) Mr. Pedersen: I thank the member for her question.

This was in my opening comments, but I'll just–I won't read the whole thing. Really, I won't. But, according to Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, real GDP –gross domestic product –growth in Manitoba improved from a low of 1.3 in 2015 to 2.2 in 2017. The Manitoba Finance Survey of Economic Forecasts indicates 2 per cent growth in 2018 and 1.6 per cent growth in 2019. So that compares to 2.3 per cent and 1.8 per cent respectively for growth rate in Canada. Ms. Lamoureux: Is there a long -term pattern that it has been estimated or we can expect at this point? Mr.

Pedersen : Maybe you should be asking the honourable Finance Minister this more than myself, but I think, generally, though, the thought is there was very rapid g rowth through the '90s through the – up until 2008 when everyone knows there was the economic crash in some places –slowdown here. The–I think, worldwide, the growth rate projection is projected to be much lower. We're not going to see – at least we don't proje ct.

We want to build an economy–help build an economy that will grow faster, but advanced economies are expected to grow by 2.3 per cent in 2018, and that would compare with what we're projecting of 2 per cent growth in Manitoba: 2.3 worldwide and 2.2 per cent in 2019 versus ours at 1.8. So we're, you know, slightly below there, but that's projections too. If we continue to build–we've seen the investment –record investment in Manitoba in private industry in the last, you know, six months here.

And so, if w e can keep doing that, the spinoff from that–it's great to have the investment in there, but once we get those –once those businesses are up and running, that will create more economic activity too. So–but, you know, we're –we want to be very cautious about growth projections. We're not about to put out great and wonderful growth projections and then not meet them, as what happened before. You know, we don't want to get in that position. Ms.

Lamoureux: Is the department working with other provinces or perha ps territories to ensure that economic opportunities are stable throughout the country, or are we solely focused on Manitoba specifically for competition? Can you– Madam Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr. Pedersen: This is why right after we came into government we signed the New West Partnership, because that allows goods and labour to flow freely through the western provinces. We've seen this and I'd–I'm sure you're aware of it too –the trade war that's going between Alberta and BC. That's not helpful for them; it's not helpful for us either.

We've signed onto the Canadian Free Trade Agreement which opened up trade between all provinces and territories. That will help us. We had a very interesting meeting here, oh, two weeks ago just before the break week. We met with the European Union trade commissions – commissioners, and I also–I have –I felt very fortunate. I met with the Hungarian ambassador, and the Hungarian trade commissioner was part of the delegation that was here too. I also met with the EU trade commissioner, and it was –we've typically – that's where the– I'll use the acronym CETA, C-E-T-A, the trade agreement with Europe.

We've–Canadians, Manitobans, have traditional- ly not looked to Europe for a lot of trade. We've gone south to the US; we've depended on that. Asia's a very big trading partner for us, but also, Europe is. There's over 400 million people in Europe, and the EU trade ambassador actually encouraged us to look at the eastern European countries. I know there's some–maybe a little bit of issues of democracy in some of those eastern European countries. Hungary, for instance, was basically bankrupt 10 years ago. They've balanced their books right now. They don't have an annual deficit.

They have a 15 per cent flat business tax and they have a flat personal tax rate and I just –the number escapes me right now. Those economies are booming and there's lots of trade with eastern European. And the other thing is when we –what federal government is doing,

940 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 2018 that the trade deal with the Asian countries –the CPTPP, it's called. The European Union is interested in Canada, in Manitoba, as sort of the halfway point between Europe and Asia and they're interested in investing in Manitoba. We're interested in investing in –our companies are interested in investing in Europe. So this–you know, this is all slow stuff. You just don't turn the economy on a dime and make it grow, but this is the kind of thing that we're looking at so that we can even better these economic forecasts that I had–gave you. Ms.

Lamoureux: Thank you for the response and that sort of segues into another question that I have. What industries and companies here in Manitoba are going to be key or prioritized for maximizing the economic growth in our province? Mr. Pedersen: I think that's really what we're asking of Dave Angus and Barb Gamey in the economic review. Like we all have our favourite spots. Talk to the member from Emerson, he'll tell you that ag is the only business out there that really matters.

We know that there is more than just ag, although ag and ag processing, as we've seen in Portage la Prairie with Roquette, the pea processing and in Simplot and the potato processing–HyLife Foods in Neepawa just did a major expansion again. So there's lots of potential and we're loo king at the further processing of agricultural products. We've for too long exported our raw products. But also, you know, the aerospace industry is very important to us here. The high- tech sector, the IT sector, is very important. That–you know, machine learning and all that kind of stuff.

And that was the interesting part, talking to the European Union too, because they're into that and we can start building our businesses based on that too. But, rather than prejudge where we should be, that's what we want–that's why we're focusing on this economic development review so that when we hear back from industry, business, from Manitobans all across Manitoba, that we have a better idea of where we should be focusing support –or I'm going to say more technical support because sometimes it's not a matter of–about dollars.

It's sometimes–it's just about getting those doors open for companies and businesses. Ms. Lamoureux: I can appreciate that it can take some time sometimes, but just to clarify, right now the p riorities are agriculture, aerospace, IT sector, and machine learning? Mr. Pedersen : I'm sorry if I misled you. I didn't want to say that those are the places that we're focusing on. Historically, those have been high as well, and you can keep adding to it.

Manufacturing has been – we have a very diversified manufacturing industry all across Manitoba and so there –that's examples of it, but we don't want to prejudge where our –where we should be–what is the next big thing that we should be in in terms of building busine

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-3-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 3rd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9753d01f5026269b7691a97844bb59ecad4bf7a2

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