Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 43 (27th Legislature, 5th Session)

27-5-43

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 16, 1966 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills 985 HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne) introduced Bill No. 34,

an Act to amend The Gas and Oil Burner Act. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 71,

an Act respecting Establishment of Universities; and Bill No. 47,

an Act to amend The Manitoba Teachers' Society Act. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge). in ihe ab sence of the Honourable the Minister of Health, introduced Bill No. 72,

an Act respecting Embalmers and Funeral Directors. MR. EVANS, in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation, introduced Bill No. 56,

an Act to amend The Noxious Weeds Act. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. ROBERT G. SMELLIE, Q. C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle-Russell): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Labour, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the proposed resolution standing on the Order Paper in my name.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable the Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been in� formed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the House. MR. JAMES COW AN, Q.

C. (Winnipeg Centre): The resolution before the Committee is as follows: RESOLVED that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Municipal Act by providing, among other matters, for the making of grants from and out of the Consolidated Fund to municipalities in respect of certain lands owned by universities and certain lands ac quired by the government for the purpose of water control works. MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago the House gave first reading to

an Act respecting the Establishment of Universities. The Municipal Act at the present time refers to grants in lieu of taxes on lands owned by the University of Manitoba, and this amendment would refer to any other university that might be established in the Province of Manitoba and put them in the same category as the University as Manitoba insofar as the payment of grants in lieu of taxes to municipalities is concerned.

During the estimates of the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation, he referred to the change in policy that is being made with regard to the payment of grants to municipalities for those lands taken for water control projects. It is proposed under the new formula that ordinary grants in lieu of taxes would be paid on those properties which are taken for water control pro jects for a period not exceeding three years and at the ordinary rate of taxation.

He also ex plained at that time that the previous policy of paying a special grant to certain municipalities would not be wiped out, and that if they would be better under the previous policy, they may take their choice. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Mr. Chair man, I just wish to make one comment and it•s dealing with the subject matter of the payment of grants in lieu of taxes.

The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs said that the taxes that will be paid, as I understood him, would be equivalent of normal taxes for Crown-owned Land in the Right of the Province taken over from municipalities. I think, Mr. Chairman, this is a basic principle that needs to be surveyed not only insofar as Manitoba is concerned but also insofar as the Dominion is concerned. That is the basic principle, Mr. Chairman, of the Crown being exempt from taxation as such. I know in my City of Transcona, we have been adversely· affected over all of the years of the City of Transcona due

986 March 16, 1966 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd.) .... . to the fact of the claim of the Crown that the installation of the Canadian National Railroad is not taxable because of the fact that it belongs to the Crown. Some years ago, a series of negotiations were conducted opposing this principle and the net result was that there were some grants paid to the municipality. It is my understanding that negotiations are being conducted at the present time between Transcona, the Dominion Govern ment and the Canadian National Railways to overcome this ancient principle that the Crown should be exempt from taxation.

So while I support this resolution at this time, I want to recommend to the government, or use this media of recommending to the government, that they should investigate all as pects of exemption of Crown property from taxation at the municipal, provincial, and federal levels. I think with the rising costs of operation in all levels of government, the Crown no longer should enjoy the immunity they had from paying taxation in 1966. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many municipalities would be affected (1) under the universities; and secondly, under the second item, lands acquired by the government. Is this taxation going to be retroactive on the second part? I think this would be of interest to the members of the Committee to know. MR. SMELLIE: Mr.

Chairman, I think it should be said that - in answer to the Leader of the New Democratic Party - that by and large the Provincial Government has accepted the proposal that was made in the Michener Commission Report that the province should pay grants in lieu of taxes equivalent to what they would pay if their properties were taxable. How- ever, no suggestion was made, and certainly no suggestion has been considered, that grants in lieu of taxes should be paid for certain projects carried on by senior governments such as highways, and certainly no consideration of this matter has been undertaken.

But by and large, for most of the projects undertaken by the Province of Manitoba where we own land or buildings, we are paying, within certain limits, grants in lieu of taxes the same as any other taxpayer. Insofar as the Federal Government is concerned, there has been some tendency towards this proposition but they have not yet accepted it to the same extent that the Province of Mani toba has. We must say that we agree with the proposal that we think the Federal Government should go at least as far as the province has gone in the payments to municipalities of grants in lieu of taxes.

In answer to the Honourable Member for Rhineland as to how many municipalities would be affected, I can •t give you that answer because I can •t tell how many universities may be established at some time in the future. I I I Insofar as the water control projects that are now in progress are concerned, there will be some three or four municipalities who will receive grants in lieu of taxes under this pro posal.that would have received nothing under the previous proposal. The member for Lake side mentioned the other night the Municipality of Portage la Prairie, and that is certainly one.

There would be two municipalities who under this proposal would receive less money than they would have under the previous one, and they are given the opportunity of selecting the previous alternative so that they will not be reduced in the amount that they would receive I by this change in the legislation. MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to check this one matter.

I listened to the Honourable the Minister quite carefully and I hope l'm wrong in this, but it seemed to me that he was suggesting that this proposal was similar to the one that the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and Conservation mentioned the other evening, that the amount will be paid only for three years. Well I must say, Mr. Chairman, that to me it seems that this is a very

summary way of dealing with this matter, because they are taking the land for all time to come and they would have paid taxes presumably for all time to come. I recog nize what my honourable friends have stated with regard to this being an adjustment period for the municipality but it isn't only an adjustment period that •s needed, it 1s the revenue that •s needed, and surely to be fair to the municipalities it should be in perpetuity, not for three years. I would mention the case of the Birds Hill Park where a considerable quantity of land is being taken from the municipality.

Surely they are not going to just walk in and absorb this land into the provincial park system, taking it away from the revenues of the municipality and then say, 11We will pay you for three. years and you're through. 11 I must protest against such a measure as that, Mr. Chairman. I did the other evening with regard to the announcement

March 16, 1966 987 (MR. CAMPBELL cant •d.) ..... made by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation and I can see no difference in principle here. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee has adopted a certain resolution, directed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. COW AN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that the report of the Committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. SMELLIE introduced Bill No. 75,

an Act to amend The Municipal Act. MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to attract your attention to the gallery on my left where there are some 40 Grade 8 students from St. Malo School under the direction of Mr. Peloquin and Sister Em ilia. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for Carillon. On my rigl;lt, there are 23 Grade 6 students from Greenway School under the direction of their teacher, Miss Lambert. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for St. Matthews.

On behalf of all members of this Legislative Assembly I welcome you. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, before ,, the Orders of the Day, I wonder if I might be permitted just to make a very brief statement on something that I am sure the House would want to have something said, and that is, congratu lations to the Canadian National Hockey Team which just returned to Winnipeg. They represent ed Canada in the world championship, and while they had difficulties there that were beyond their own control, they nevertheless placed third.

I think it is a credit to Canada that they did so, and particularly a credit to Winnipeg because the majority of the players are actually from this area, trained here, a good number of them are at the University of Manitoba, and I think that we can be very proud indeed of their representation of Canada in this world champion ship. Our compliments should go to all the players; to the coach, Mr. McLeod; and to the ad visor, Father Bauer. It is to be hoped that, in spite of their troubles, they will return in the future and again represent Canada as well as they did this time. HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier and Provincial Treasurer) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I trust I'll be permitted to join with my honourable friend in his expression of good wishes to ward our national team. I'm sure that that represents our general view. I had the pleasure, along with about 30 children and two sisters from Ste.

Anne•s Parish School, to see them off when they left a short while ago for Europe, and had I been informed as to when they were com ing back I would have been out there again to greet them on their return to the city, but I am sure we all join with what has been said in appreciation of their work as a team. One particular hockey event that I follow very closely is the one that was just mentioned and the honourable member touched a responsive chord with me when he spoke. HON. MAITLAND B. STEINKOPF, Q.

C. (Provincial Secretary) (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I would like to add my congratulations too to the team, and also share in the compli ments of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that they will return some day to take that championship. But lest there be any doubt, I'd like to advise the House that tonight two of the best midget hockey teams that have ever been developed in Canada will be playing at the Sargent Park rink.

One of them represents my constituency, River Heights, and there will be another member of this House who would be very happy if his estimates could be passed before the House rises, because his son Danny is one of the stars of that team and a future national Canadian championship team. MR. MARK G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I'd like to bring to the atten tion of the House an error that was made in Hansard in yesterday's remark on Page 944.

I be lieve the remark was attributed directly to me, of some two years ago, that I had an 18-year old son, and I believe that the member from Roblin is somewhat confused - completely wrong - and it's simply not true. I wish I did have an 18-year old son. I do have a daughter who is at the present time taking double honours in Maths Actuary and is in her 4th year Honours under the old system or 3rd year Honours under the new system. She is an excellent student and I am very proud of her, because I think she will be one of the very few ladies who will graduate with Honours Actuary from our University of Manitoba.

In addition, Madam Speaker, in reference to the same thing, I have not made any reference

988 March 16, 1966 (MR. SMERCHANSKI cont 1d.) .... . to the laws of genetics or heredity or sex. As I am not a biochemist or a biologist, I am not knowledgeable in this field the way the member of Roblin proposes to be and appears to be. MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): I would like to say that I was quoting from Hansard. I thought at that time I had it. If I got the sex wrong, I apologize to the gentleman. He still continues to prove my main thesis as to the laws of genetics and heredity. MR.

PAULLEY: Before the Orders of the Day, I1d like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources in his capacity as Chairman of the Public Utilities Committee. Can the Honourable Minister give any indication as to when we might be receiving the transcript of the last meeting of the Utilities Committee. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for giving me notice of this question.

I have passed it along to the Honourable the Minister of Utilities because Hydro are doing the transcription work. He will attempt to give us an answer later on and I will le my honourable friend know later on in the day when the transcript will be in. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister. What is the situation insofar as the supply of sandbags in the Province of Manitoba? Are there adequate supplies, and are we going to be assured that there will not be an increase in price during the course of the possible flood. MR. ROBLIN: I think there will be an adequate supply.

I cannot give any guarantees about price because I don •t control it, but the question of sandbags is tendering on today and we'll get the prices today for the additional quantities that we require. There are quite a con siderable number on hand, enough to be getting on with in the sand- bagging operations that are now being put to use. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, a subsequent question if I may on the same subject. I gather then that there are ample supplies on hand now to start the diking.

Insofar as the diking that I understand will be done, will this be - it is done by sandbags - will it be done under some control? My reason for asking this is, because of the particular location of my own house, I have been involved in diking, and I'm afraid that in the past - and I don't want to in any way take away from the enthusiasm of the work that was done by the volunteers - but many of them, many many of them were young people who did not know how to instal the bags. Quite obviously if there's one weak link somewhere in the dike, then the whole of the program suffers.

I think it would be much better if the work was done under some control with some coaching to these people as to exactly how it should be laid. I think only in this way can we have an adequate diking system wherever it is built. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, my honourable friend raises a very good point indeed and one that has received our consideration. Now I know he's in a threatened area. We•re having a meeting of the residents of that area tonight and I expect I'll see him there. If he comes, I'll certainly invite him to sit on the platform with us and help us with our deliberations.

On the point in question, the answer is 11yes. 11 We intend to provide supervision or authorize the municipalities, in the case of secondary diking, to provide the supervision that is required. There is a tremendous spirit in the community but it is a fact that volunteers are slow coming forward at the beginning of a situation while they are probably very abundant when waters get up around our ankles.

So as we have to move now in order to be prepared, we con template that a good deal of the work will have to be done on a non- voluntary basis, although I want to make it clear that we will welcome and appreciate any volunteers that we can get. On the point in question, we hope to provide or authorize the municipalities to see that there is the kind of supervision to which my honourable friend refers. It's particularly important in his area. MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct a ques tion to the Provincial Treasurer.

Is it the intention of the Province of Manitoba to float a Personal Savings Loan this year? MR. ROBLIN: The matter is under consideration, but no final decision has been made nor will it be made for a few weeks at least. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Welfare. Has he introduced legislation yet in respect to the counselling services for deserted wives and children as referred to in the Throne Speech? • I

March 16, 1966 989 HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas): No, Madam Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: I'd like to address a question to the First Minister still with regard to the flood threat. Will there be deadlines suggested to the people who live along the valley as to when they should evacuate their homes? I think there is great concern all the way down - should they now start cleaning out their basements, should they disconnect electrical equip ment, should the furniture be moved out and so on.

Is it possible to establish a deadline for the various locations so that they will know in advance and will not be put to undue hardships by having it done too early or leaving it till too late and be caught. MR. ROBLIN: I hope the information is getting through to these people because it has been made clear to the municipal representatives and also to the departmental people who are contacting the people in the valley on an almost door-to-door basis - or as close as we can get to that at any rate - and that is this, that we just cannot be sure what 1s going to happen. We have the flood forecast.

The information that reached me today is a little more optimistic than it was yesterday. Now on the other hand, there is a threat of rain during the period and if the rain materializes it •ll cancel out the other. But you just can't be sure, you just have to make the best decisions you can on the basis of the information at hand. On the basis of the information at hand, our advice to all the people who live between Winnipeg and the 49th parallel is to take all the. necessary steps right now in order to be able to leave their property if they should have to do so.

If there is a question of moving grain, and all that kind of thing is in hand as we know - and I've just come from a meeting and I want to get back to it as quickly as I can, with the Wheat Board and the Railways to make sure that they have done all that they can do to make the movement of grain possible - but I would say to anyone who is in an area where a flood in the neighbourhood of somewhere between last year and the 1950 flood would be a menace, those people ought to make all their preparations to face such an eventuality. So I think that •s fair warning on that score.

With respect to people who are within the Metro main dike system, we fully expect that they will be protected and that there will be no emergency of that kind with respect to their situation. In the case of people who are behind the secondary dike such as the Elm Park situa tion, we are going to wait until the last possible moment before we authorize evacuation of that area.

But we are going to suggest to the people tonight that they should be ready, and if the flood reaches say - who knows - 27 feet or something in that neighbourhood, we may have to clear everybody out of there even though the dikes may still be holding. The timetables on those will be made explicit as and when we are able to get the information on which a sound de cision could be based. But the people who are now in the flooded area and have no diking pro tection, I would say that they should look sharp right now. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I would like to pursue my question a little further with the Minister of Welfare. Can he tell us when we might expect to receive the legislation? I note there are two or three other measures referred to in the field of Welfare in his Throne Speech. When could we have all of the legislation? It would be nice to have it before we get on the Health Minister •s Estimates which will be very shortly. MR. CARROLL: Madam Speaker, we•re not anticipating any legislation with respect to that particular matter that was referred to in the Throne Speech.

And while I'm on my feet, Madam Speaker, I would like to lay on the Table of the House a Return to an Order for Papers dated Monday, February 28, 1966, No. 4, in the name of the Leader of the Official Opposition. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities. MR . STEINKOPF: Madam Speaker, I am now in a position to accept this Order. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing:

(1) Details of the amount of $133,594,12 shown in the Public Accounts for the year ending March 31st, 1962 as a cash payment to Arpin, Rich, Houston and Karlicki, Winnipeg.

(2) The amount paid through the said firm to the persons whose property was expropriated.

(3) Whether the said firm was acting for the persons whose property was. expropriated, or acting for the government, or acting for both those persons and the government.

(4) If the said firm or any member thereof was

990 March 16, 1966 (MR. CAMPBELL cont 'd. ) ... .. acting for the government, the amount paid as legal fees, commissions and other charges.

(5) The services performed in connection with Nos. (2) and (4).

(6) Whether the said firm or any member thereof received payment from any Board, Commission, or Agency of the government in the year ending March 31st, 1962, in addition to the amount of $133,594. 12 shown in the 1962 Public Accounts.

(7) The basis on which the said firm and each member thereof is paid for legal work performed on behalf of the Government of Manitoba or any Board, Commission, or Agency thereof.

(8) Whether this is the same basis used with all other legal firms and their individual members when they perform legal work on behalf of the government, or any Board, Commission or Agency thereof.

(9) The total amount paid to the said firm or any member thereof by Government Departments, Boards, Commis sions, Agencies or otherwise, during the fiscal years ending March 31st, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, and from March 31st, 1965, to February 28th, 1966. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin): We are happy to accept this Order for Return. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Praiiie. MR. GORDON E.

JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: All traffic counts made on Provincial Road No. 240 for the years: 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964 and 1965 MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of Public Works) (Minnedosa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Labour, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MADAM SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House. The Honourable the Provincial Secretary. MR.

STEINKOPF: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution stand ing in my name.

WHEREAS the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba at its Fourth Session of the Twenty Seventh Legislature on Wednesday, the Fifth day. of May, 1965, pursuant to a Resolution passed at the same Session constituted a Special Committee of the House consisting of nine members to study and review the law and business practice in the field of consumer credit; AND

WHEREAS the said Committee in its report to the Legislature indicated that many areas and facets of its study still require further special consideration, while others should be more fully examined and the benefit of concurrent study utilized; AND

WHEREAS the said Committee in its report to the Legislature further indicated it proposes to investigate many other aspects of the general subject of consumer credit, which perforce, must lead to an examination of the character of other forms of prevalent commercial transactions; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Special Committeeappointed to study and review the law and business practice in the field of consumer credit and consisting of Hon. Messrs. Carroll, Evans, Steinkopf, and Messrs. Barkman, Bjornson, Cherniack, Cowan, Groves and Hillhouse appointed at the Fourth Session of the Twenty-Seventh Legislature be reconstituted and re-appointed for the same purpose and with the same powers to study and review the law and business practice in the field of consumer credit, and without restricting the generality of the foregoing: (

a) to consider the report of the Premier's Committee on consumer credit; (

b) to make such recommendations respecting the field of consumer credit as it considers necessary and advisable in order to protect the consumer from unfair trade practices and at the same time allow the credit granting industry to function effectively; and (

c) to report to this House on the matters referred to it at this Session or at the next Session of the Legislature. AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT the said Committee of the House have power to sit during the present Session and in recess, after prorogation, and to report to this House on •

March 16, 1966 991 (MR.

STEINKOPF cont•d.) ..... the matters referred to it at this Session or at the next Ses sion of the Legislature; AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund to the members of the said Committee the amount of expenses incurred by the members in at tending the sittings of the Committee or expenses incurred by the members in the performances of duties ordered by the Committee in recess, after prorogation, as are approved by the Comptroller-General; AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund all other expenses of a kind and nature required to assist the Committee in carrying out the provisions of this resolution and provided the same have received prior approval of the Treas ury Board.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. STEINKOPF: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been in formed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion passed? MR. MOLGAT: Are we going to get any information from the Minister, Mr. Chairman, because I have some questions that I want to raise. MR. STEINKOPF: Mr.

Chairman, the report of the committee for last year has been circulated and our department is now busy trying to implement as many of the recommenda tions as can be implemented without necessary legislation, and where legislation is required, this is being prepared. ·But there are other matters that still have to be considered. The field of consumer credit is one that never stands still.

There are problems coming up all the time and it seemed advisable to have the committee reconstituted in order to keep abreast of the situation and to bring in further recommendations on matters that the committee were not able to conclude during its past sittings. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for his explanation.

I was wonder ing if he would give us some explanation for the wording of the resolution itself, because re cently when we were discussing another resolution from the same Honourable Minister, the matter of when the committee was to report was the subject of a lengthy discussion here in the committee, and I refer to the one on Highway Safety, because at that time we raised the point that the operative part of the resolution stated that the committee shall have the power to sit during the present Session and in recess, after prorogation, and report to this House on the matters referred to them at the next Session of the Legislature.

We took the position on this side that this to us meant that the committee would not report at this Session but report at the next Session. After considerable discussion, the government assured us that ••next Session" meant 11this Session. 11 Well now we come along to this resolution and we find a change in wording, because it says that the said Committee of the House have power to sit during the present Session and in recess, after prorogation, and report to the House on the matters referred to it.

Everything's fine until that point, but it says, 11at this Session or at the next Session. 11 Now if this is the necessary wording today to get this committee in a position where it can report at this Session, then my question of the Minister is that he assured us that the wording the last time meant that that committee could report, or has the Minister decided in the internal since our last discus sion that this is the correct wording and therefore we should amend or have this particular committee recommendation be set up on this basis, because if this is so, then I naturally want ·, the assurance that the one that we passed here on Highway Safety, although it doesn't read the same way, does in fact mean the same thing.

MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, in reading the resolution part, I would like to move an amendment and I don't think it would make much difference to the resolution. My amendment would read that the resolution be amended by substituting the word "protection" for the word ••credit '' where same appears at the end of the seventh line of the resolution and after the word "consumer, '' and the first word of the second line in clause (b). Mr.

Chairman, the reason I would like to move this amendment, I have had a resolution on the Order Paper now for quite some time asking for a Department of Consumer Portection, and if they would consider this at this time, Mr. Chairmaman, to accept this amendment, I would be prepared

992 March 16, 1966 (MR. PETERS cont 'd. ) ..... to withdraw my resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: The resolution is out of order because it provides for something quite different than the resolution proposed by the House. I would like to read again from Beauchesne•s Parliamentary Rules and Forms, Fourth Edition, 1958, Page 216, Paragraph No. 4: "The fundamental terms of a money resolution submitted to the House with the Governor-General •s recommendation upon which a Committee of the Whole is set up, cannot be amended, Amendments will only be in order if they fall within the terms of the resolution.

The procedure in committee on those resolutjons follows in principle the procedure of the Committee of Supply and amendments are out of order if they are proposed with a view to sub stituting an alternative scheme to that proposed with the Royal recommendation. • • In my opinion, to investigate the whole of consumer protection is an alternative scheme. to just in vestigating consumer credit, MR.

STEINKOPF: In reply to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the wording has been changed from the previous resolution that I have the honour of presenting, not un wittingly but after further study, having not wished to get into a lengthy debate on what the intent was of the resolution, either this one or the past one, I have already assured the members of this House that it was the government •s intention to report Bill No. 5 back to this House just as expeditiously as it could, and that if it found that it couldn't report before the Session would be over, it would be returned to the House so that it would be put through the usual channels in law amendments, so I don't think any more assurances are needed on that score.

It's the type of wording that there are many

interpretations on. I have personally dis cussed this with three different authorities and have got almost as many opinions. But the resolution before us is pretty clear and states that the committee can report back at this Ses sion or the next Session, and I think that •s the intent of this particular resolution. I hope that we will be able to get on with it on that basis. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, of course one cannot debate the ruling of the Chair on a ruling that he makes other than appealing to the House through the Speaker, so therefore we accept your ruling and indeed in some respects we are pleased to receive your ruling. I don't know what bearing this might have insofar as the transactions of business in the House are con cerned, As my colleague from Elmwood pointed out, we have r ui.d on the Order Paper for some considerable period of time a resolution dealing with the setting up of a Department of Con sumer Affairs.

If I recall correctly, last year a similar resolution to the one we have before us had been proposed in the Throne Speech and also came into the Committee of the Whole House. When a resolution calling for consumer protection was introduced by one of my col leagues, said resolution was ruled out of order on the basis of anticipation, on the basis that it dealt with the matter of consumer credit. Your ruling today which we accept, Mr.

Chairman, differentiates now between consumer credit and protection, and while I cannot anticipate what the Speaker may rule on the introduction of the resolution from the Honourable Member for Elmwood, it would appear, by your ruling at least, no t having been challenged of course, that we may be able to introduce our full resolution for full consumer protection. The resolution before us, Mr. Chairman, we accept wholeheartedly, and the reasons we can support it is because it was the New Democratic group that initiated it into this House, the need for consumer protection in the field of consumer credit.

We still say that there are some deficiencies, both in the report of the committee which we have already had, and we trust and hope that the committee that is going to re-assemble - I believe it's the same committee as we had before -- will give further consideration to many aspects in the field of consumer credit.

I'm sure the Honourable Minister of Public Utilities hasn •t been too busy that he has not had the opportunity of reading the report of the Committee on Consumer Credit of the sister Province of Ontario, and I'm sure that all members of the committee being reconstituted by this resolution will spend a few hours reading the recommendations in that report. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it would be fair to ask the Honourable the Minister what the expenses of the committee has been to date and what further expenses there might be before the final report is tabled, MR. STEINKOPF: Mr.

Chairman, I haven't got the exact amount of the expenses in the past, but they have not been very extensive. The committee isn't of the travelling kind, and with the exception of out-of-pocket expenses of the members who come from outside the Metro Winnipeg area and the cost of a secretary, there haven't been any and I anticipate that the cost I L

March 16, 1966 993 (MR. STEINKOPF cont•d.) ..... in the next year will be about the same,just the out-of-pocket expenses and the cost of the secretary. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. John's): I've already commented when we received the report of this committee on the scope with which we worked and the progress that I believe that we made, and certainly the report itself carried with it a recommendation that the com mittee be reconstituted as is now before us.

I would like to appeal to the Honourable Minister to remember the number of occasions when in our studies we realized that the problem that we were dealing with extended in some cases beyond credit. We dealt with certain gimmicks involved in sales which were not con fined to credit sales but were also cash sales, and it seems to me that at this stage all I can do is to appeal to the Minister that the meetings of the committee be continued in the same vein as they were before, in that there was no limitation on the scope of what we did.

I can •t review in my mind immediately the recommendations to see whether they were all confined to credit but certainly the committee did not confine itself to discussions on credit, and I would have thought that had the Minister. had the opportunity, he might have accepted the amendment which was proposed so that the committee would not be limited. At this stage, I would only appeal to him that in dealing with the meetings and the final recommendations, that th� committee should not feel limited in that respect but should look at the general field of consumer protection.

I think it •s not too late for the Minister to voluntarily make the neces sary amendment to give the committee this power and I would hope that he will do so, but if not, I would think that since there's a good chance that he might be elected as chairman of the committee, that in that capacity he will see to it that we are not limited in our scope. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, just one comment and that is to do with the matter of - when the report was received, I made some comments on it and I think other members did as well, and I just hope that all these matters that were brought out when the report was under consideration, the aspects that were brought forward, that they would all be considered by the committee as it is now being reconstructed. I hope that they will at least give consideration to the points I made on it. One was with a central registry agency, and I think that these are matters of importance and I certainly hope they'll be attended to. MR. T. P.

HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, speaking as a member of the last committee and as a member designate of the present committee, I believe that the Prem, ier•s Committee on Consumer Credit was sufficiently wide and sufficiently comprehensive not only to deal with consumer credit but also to deal with consumer protection, and I feel that the terms of reference here are sufficiently wide and sufficiently comprehensive so that the com mittee can deal with all aspects of consumer credit as well as consumer protection. MR. STEINKOPF: Mr. Chairman, I concur with the thoughts of the last speaker.

It certainly is the intention to keep the debate before the committee as broad as possible and the subject matters that are brought up, whether they are under the label of protection or credit, they all will be in the same general nature of things and I can voluntarily assure the House that that will be the way the committee will work. I don't think it's possible now to amend the reso lution having once had the message from His Honour, and that again is a mere technicality in the field that is as broad as this to begin with.

So I hope that any of the matters that are re lated to the consumer in the field of money matters, whether they be credit or protection, will come before this committee and we can report on them. MR . CHAffiMAN: Resolution passed. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee has adopted a certain resolution, instructed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. ,IN SESSION MR. COW AN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, that the report of the committee be received.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. STEINKOPF: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs,

WHEREAS the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba at its Fourth Session of the Twenty Seventh Legislature on Wednesday, the Fifth day of May, 1965, pursuant to a Resolution passed at the same Session constituted a Special Committee of the House consisting of nine members to study and review the law and business practice -- (Interjection) --

994 March 16, 1966 MADAM SPEAKER: Granted. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 7. The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, may we have this item stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 41. The Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR.

PETERS: Madam Speaker, when I adjourned this debate I wasn't paying very much attention to what the Leader of the Opposition was saying and I just wanted to make sure that he had said what I thought he said, and I adjourned the debate to make sure. I read the Han sard and he did mention the one

section that I am very interested in and that is the part that there should be two enumerators. I feel very strongly on this part, Madam Speaker, as in the last election, in my own constituency, I found out that we had people who had died that were on the voter's list. The reason this happened is because at the time of the year that they were enumerating it was very cold, and the enumerator took the last election list and just copied it over and put it in. Therefore, Madam Speaker, I think that this is something that the government should give very serious consideration to, that there should be two enumerators.

The two enumerat ors should be the same as they are in the federal elections, the candidate that had won the previous election would have the say of who the one enumerator would be and the person that ran second in the previous election would have the say, and I think this is a very important thing that the government should give very serious consideration to.

Another thing, Madam Speaker, is -I haven't had a chance to really look at the bill very thoroughly - but the example ballots that they had on there, I hope that this time, in the next election that we have, we don't have to go to the judiciary to find out who wins the seat. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The second reading of Bill No. 50.

The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Conservation. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, could this item be allowed to stand? MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 53, The Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR. PETERS: Madam Speaker, I looked over this bill and I listened with interest to what the member from Assiniboia had to say.

There are certain parts of it that I do not agree with, and one thing is I don't think that the bill goes far enough, because if people are allowed to strike they should also be allowed to picket, and although once they set up a picket line, in junctions are so very easily obtained through the courts that they are almost meaningless. To illustrate my point, Madam Speaker, I heard a story the other day of a judge that was at a baseball game. He fell asleep and he was awakened with the umpire hollering "strike.

" The judge woke up and he says, "injunction granted. 11 That •s how easy it is to get injunctions these days, Madam Speaker. There are very many aspects of this bill that we will be dealing with when we get into committee. We don't want to hold it up; we want it to get to committee; but we•ll have an aw ful lot more to say then. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR.

SMELLIE presented Bill No. 57,

an Act to amend The Department of Municipal Af fairs Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SMELLIE: Madam Speaker, I thought that perhaps this bill had had plenty of ex planation during the period when it was in committee. It involves two main principles, the change in the name of the department to more accurately reflect the orientation of the department I

March 16, 1966 995 (MR. SME LLIE cont 'd.) at the present time; and secondly, the provisions for the pay- ment of grants to those municipalities which are operating transit systems where a loss is suffered. MR. CHERNIACK: Madam Speaker, I must say that I welcome the addition of the words "urban development" in the title of the department.

I am not sure whether it is really to more accurately reflect the orientation of the department, or whether it's really to be to indicate to the department the orientation which ought to be reflected by the name, I have had occasion to refer before to the urban development and urban renewal picture in the department, and I have had occasion to criticize the department for leaving it to the municipalities to take the initiative in urban renewal, I said then that I deplore it.

I only re peat it again now by saying that if the title will help promote urban development, then to that extent it's worthwhile, but a title alone, of course, is not enough. I think we have to see a much more serious and insistent attitude on the part of the department in getting this work done, Now the Grant formula is three percent of the gross passenger revenue. The only ex planation that I've seen for tying it to gross passenger revenue is to insist that the t�:ansit operation will be such as will try to produce the greatest revenue.

Well, that may be a reason for tying it to the gross revenue, but I'm wondering how the government, in its wisdom, ar rived at the figure "3 ". I wonder why it wasn't 2i or 3i or 6. I noted that in 1964, in the October Session when The Revenue Act was passed, that there was an additional tax put on to diesel fuel of three cents a gallon, and I find that in that one fell swoop the transit system of Metropolitan Winnipeg which purchases, or expects to purchase in this current year some two million gallons, will be paying $60, 000 extra this year because of the additional tax imposed in the fall of 1964.

The government is proposing to return to Metropolitan Winnipeg three percent of the gross passenger revenue, which it is expected will be $7,800,000, so that there will be some $234,000 in grants to Metro Transit System. The fact is that after we deduct the $60, 000 which was taxed by the government on Metro last year, we find a net of $174, 000 in a grant.

It may or may not be a coincidence that the deficit for which Metro Winnipeg Transit is budgeting this year is $1, 800; 000, so that by the measure proposed in this bill, less than 10 percent of the budgeted deficit will be given by way of a grant to reduce the deficit. It means, therefore, that the deficit would be reduced in round estimated figures, from an expected $1, 800, 000 to in excess of $1, 600,000, and that deficit will still be bOrne by the real property taxpayers of Metropolitan Winnipeg.

I would wonder whether the Minister could explain how this figure of three percent was arrived at and to what extent it is expected that this will be of any greater benefit than as I have just described, and in the end, how much of a contribution is this to a necessary means of c ommunication in the various municipalities. I touch also on the fact that it is proposed that when municipalities subsidize private transit, the government will support the municipality.

Here too, the relationship is to the gross passenger revenue and has no bearing on matters such as profits, gross profits, net profit of the company, dividends declared to shareholders, salaries paid to executives; and it seems here, like in urban renewal, that the government is depending on the municipality to make the decision. The government of course -- I think the words "shall pay" - shall pay - I think the government will be bound to pay to the municipality three percent or the amount of subsidy, whichever is lesser, as long as the municipality does it.

It occurs to me to wonder whether the municipality, in all cases, would be the best capable in judging the needs for the private company to be subsidized, or whether it would be better for the government to bring to bear all its resources of knowledgeable brainpower to review whether or not supporting deficits are justified, I need only mention in passing that when private companies obtain a monopoly in the field of public utilities or in the field of natural resources, the interests of the private company are not the same as the interests of the people it serves, and the result is that when profit is the motive, there can be all sorts of things done which would not be of benefit to the community.

I need only point to the most recent case, which I'm sure we'll be referring to again, of the Central Heating organization which was a private company, and which managed to forecast a deficit in almost the same breath as it declared a dividend to its shareholders in a matter of, I believe, months. So that it seems to me that in this case the government is prepared to pay to subsidize a private monopoly operating a public utility only on the say-so of the municipality, and without,

996 March 16, 1966 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) .. .. I believe, reserving to itself the right, and what is more im portant, the obligation and responsibility of reviewing the reasons, the nature and the extent of the deficit. MR. SMELLIE: Madam Speaker, I would have to say that first of all the three percent figure is a purely arbitrary figure and was based upon the amount of money which the province felt was available for this purpose in this year. It will of course, as any other formula, be subject to review from time to time.

The intention here is not to cover the total deficit of any municipality or the Metropolitan Corporation in the matter of public transit, and indeed I think it would be wrong for the prov ince to pick up the total deficit. This is not really a matter of provincial responsibility; it's a matter of the area municipalities' responsibility, or in the case of Metro, the Metropolitan Corporation.

This is merely an attempt by the province to indicate their concern for the problem and to indicate it in a tangible way which will be of some assistance to the people who must support through the payment of taxes the transit system which is necessary. When you come to the case where there is a private company having a monopoly as far as transit is concerned, the province is not really interested in the amount of profits that that company may earn.

This is a matter between the municipality and the company, and certainly from my knowledge of such systems, it's not likely that the municipality is going to be paying a subsidy to the company if they are in a profit position. If the transit system would stand on its own feet, then in most cases the matter is put out for bids; and if a company can operate at a profit, no subsidy is offered. The only reason a subsidy is offered is that it's been the experience of municipalities generally on the North American continent that public transit systems today are necessary for a large

section of the population, and yet by and large they have not been able to operate on their own resources. If you raise the fares beyond a certain point, the utilization of that pub- I lie utility drops to the point where the deficit is even greater than it was with a lower fare structure. So, as I say, this is an attempt by the province to recognize an area where there is a problem and to assist the municipal gover�ent concerned in a tangible way. MR. CHERNIACK: Would the Honourable Minister permit a question, Madam Speaker?

Does he agree with my figures to indicate that the province will be paying approximately 10 percent of the expected deficit of the Metropolitan Transit System. MR. SMELLIE: If the honourable member's figures are correct, it's a coincidence. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. . . . . . continued on next page

March 16; 1966 997 MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resol ve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. -- 39 minutes - - 39 hours. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPP LY MR. CHAffiMAN: Resol ution No. 34 (

a) MR. PAULLEY: I wonder if just before we commence the further consideration of the details that I might be permitted just to draw a matter to the attention of the committee that I am sure is of interest to all of us , and particularly to the Honourable .the Minister of Education. It concerns the situation, if one may call it that, in respect of the Windsor Park area and the French Option School.

I am sure the Minister will be glad to know that the President of the Niakwa - Windsor Park Citizens Committee informed me this morning that they are very pleased with the latest statement of the Honourable Minister of Education dealing with the French Option School and they are pleased that he has indicated his disapproval of the construction of the school for the purposes for which it appeared originally that it was being built for, and they suggest to me that really the Minister should not blame himsel f entirel y for the situation that developed. So I say, Mr.

Chairman, I am sure the Minister of Education is interest ed in hearing this and I am also sure the other members, that the Citizens Committee have informed me accordingly and I transmit that to the Honourable the Minister. MR. FROESE: I think I was speaking last night when the House was dismissed and I think the matte r I was speaking on at that time was in connection with the grants for teacherages and the reason for this, because we in the rural parts of this province and the smaller centres in this province need teacherages to attract better teachers.

Very often it's a matter of getting decent housing for the teachers in these areas , and the matter of purchasing a home in some of these smaller centres is not always an easy one. It's a matter of getting the proper financing, and if the former owner has a fairly large equity in the home that he won 't sell, this is a problem for the teacher who hasn't got the finances. As a result, this is a problem.

And also in connec tion with renting, very often there are not houses, suitable houses for rent in these smaller centres, and therefore I think it is a good thing to have at least a few teacherages for a division or to have at least one teacherage for a district so that they are not complete ly without accommo dation.

As far as the district or division is concerned, the people in the area have to approve such teacherage whether it is being constructed or purchased, and if the people in that parti cular area subscribe to it, vote for it, I cannot see why a governmental committee should then have the power to deny these people the construction of a teacherage, and apparently this has happened. Also, it's not the liability to the district.

After all, this would be a se lf-liquidating debt that they're creating because the teacher , if he occupies the home , will naturally pay rent and as a result in a matter of time the district will own that teacherage and be paid for it, so why should the government object to this ? Is it purely because of the 40 percent grant, and that the amount of money that would be spent in this way is the obstac le ?

If that is the obstacle , I think we would rather see that the percentage figure be reduced, but still let us not deny the trustees of the divisions or districts the right to purchase or construct teacherages for their teachers. I think this is a very important matter, and as it is getting harder all the time for school districts and rural divisions to get properly qualified teachers, I think \l!e should do everything in our power to provide proper facilities for teachers , and if this can be done and brought about in this way, I think the government should support this more full y. MR.

JOHNSON: ....... in remote areas I would agree with the honourable member, but we have not been approving teacherages for the simple reason that with all the priorities in education, we don't want to get into the real es tate business at this time, especially with the great changes that are undoubtedly to occur in many small districts in the very near future , and it's about as simple as that. I think it's important that teachers have these accommodations.

It's one of the things the Boards require to get proper teachers , but in larger centres of 1, 500 to 2, 000 people in a community, there's not too much difficulty in a community of that size having accommodation that is suitable for teachers , and I think that's about the only answer I can give the honourable member.

998 March 16, 19 66 MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, the Honour:::ble Member for St. Boniface made rather an interesting observation and recommendation the other day and I don't think the Minister replied to it. The member for St. Boniface recommended that a course be introduced in our schools on this whole field of interest rates, mortgag es , financing and banking, and it seems to me that this is a very sound recommendation.

Earlier this afternoon we were discussing the consumer credit and the spec ial committee that was set up to look into consumer credit gene rally , and I noticed on Page 1, it points up and my honour able friend who is the Minister of Education will correct me if I'm wrong - but the st atement is made here that Canadians owe $6 billion. Now I think that works out to $300 for every man, woman and child in Canada, does it not?

Twenty million people owe $6 billion, and I would like to know what interest rate these people are paying on that, because I have had people come into our office, particularly young people who will be paying $1. 00 a day interest on their car perhaps and $1. 00 a day for insurance, and these are pretty important things to educate our young people for in the proper use of credit and finance and banking. · On Page 5 of the same report, it says, "At the present time, education in the enlightened use and the application of credit appears to be of much greater importance than the need to houseclean the credit granting industry.

The main prob lem is the unwise use of credit both by the consumer and the credit grantor ." The whole reports that we have before us points up how important it is , particularly for our young people, to get started off on the right foot. I drafted an agreement the other day for a fellow that calls on him to pay in the next 15 years roughly $30, 000 of interest, and by golly I don't know how a lot of these young fel lows can do it unless we have a continuing rising economy .

So I think that my honourable friend has made a pretty good suggestion here and I would like to hear what my honourable friend has to say in this regard , because after all what is more important to a young fellow than to be relieved of a lot of hard-earned money that he has to pay out in credit -- in interest charges rather. Now, Mr . Chairman, I think this is the time to bring up another matter that is of some concern, or I would like.some answers to it. On Page 118 of your report Mr.

Minister, the Department of Education Annual Report for the year ending June 30th, 1965, under the heading Private Trade Schoo ls . I'm wondering if an error has occurred here. It is reported that the number of registered private trade schools for the year was 48 and the student enrollment was 6, 631. In private trade schools I wonder if that's right, Mr. Chairman?

Beca use in light of the fact that we have such a wonderful institution at MIT - and I mean that; I have been. out there, and it's a wonderful institution - why should it be necessary for the province to license 48 trade schools that to me would seem to be in opposition to it, and why is it that they're doing such a thriving busin ess ? They had 6, 600 students attending 48 private trade schools in Manitoba last year. That seems to me to be nearly as many as attended MIT, is it not ? On that page and the next page , Pages 118 and 119, it lists the 48 different trade schoo ls.

Now my honourable friend cut me kind of short the other day when I said that that Bobbie Bend had made the obser vation and repeated it on numerous occasions that perhaps the qualifi cation for admittance to MIT was set too high for a lot of the students that would like to get in there, and I think my honourable. friend took it as meaning that I was suggesting that nobody needed to go to school anymore. It wa sn't that at all.

But I notice under the Regu lations Act: (that's the way it's worded here) in the Manitoba Gazette , Manitob a Regu lation 86 - 63 -i t has to do with loans for technological training and it gives the Minister pretty wide authority here - it suggests that the Minister can make loans for students to attend these private trade schools if he feels like it. I wonder if he could tell me how often he felt like it last year. How many loans did he make to students that had made application for entrance to private trade schoo ls ? This is an interesting regulation. Perhaps they have resc inded it. I don 't know.

It sa ys, "L oans known as and entitled 'government loans ' for technological training are hereby establis h ed, and a government loan for technological training may be made to a student enrolled in a course des ignated by the Minister as a technological course and taken in any vocational school des ignated by him, that is the Minister , or with his approval in any other institution". Any other institution. "The maximum loa n available to a student in any one year shall be $500 unless the Minister approves a greater amount. " Apparently he can loan twice that if he feels like it, or three times that.

It's all left to the Minister. " The government loans for technological training shall be repayable under such terms and conditions as the Minister may approve, " and it goes on and on. And the last paragraph says, "The Minister may determine the form on which the application for a loan shall be made, the security, if any, which shall be required, and the person

March 16, 1966 999 (MR. SHOEMAKER : cont'd) .... or persons who will be acceptable as guarantors of the note. " Well, I suppose it is necessary for the Minister to have a certain amount of authority and discretion, but it seems to me that he has pretty wide powers here . And it seems to me, as I said before , Mr. Chairman, that not only have we 48 trade schools, 6, 600 students attending these private schools , but a Minister making loans to students that attend them.

I quite fre quently come in contact with people in the rural parts of our province that are out selling courses in these private trade schools , and I'm sure nearly eve ryone in the House does come across these peopl e because they go out peddling these courses. I met one of them one day last summer and stopped and had a chat with him and I said, "I'm surprised that you people are able to do any business at all an ymore in light of MI T and the wide variety of education that is offered by them ." "Oh, " he says, "you have complete ly overlo oked a point.

" I said, "What is the point?" He said, "We will let people into our trade schools with a Grade 3 education, a number of the course s,

whereas in MIT they have to have a much much higher education ." Now, Mr. Chairman, I think this is the point that Bobble Bend has raised on so many occasions, and this is why we had last year 6, 600 people attending private trade schools in Manitoba. This is my suggestion, this is one of the reasons. So perhaps my honourable friend could make some comment on those two, the recommendation made by the Member for St. Boniface in respect to a course on banking, financing and the use of credit, etc. , and then the other one on the licensed trade schools . Now, Mr. Chairman, we are still on Instruction, are we? We haven't got down -- we're on (

b) are we? We're on (

a) yet. Very well, then. MR. CHAffiMAN: (

a) passed. (

b) passed. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I guess I'll have to reply to the Honourable Member. I'll just say very briefly that in several of the matters raised by the Member for St. Boniface and referred to by the Member for Neepawa, you will understand that in the commercial courses and in the General Course many of the el ements of what have been described as lacking in the school system are in fact taught.

In Grade 12 , for example , in the General Course, there is business law, and our health and guidance programs deal with many of the matte rs that were raised, everything from personal grooming to various matters that he refe rred to. The General Course has of course many of these things covered, if not all. It's just a matter of the design of the courses and trying to get as much to the boys and girls as po ssible.

The Department of Education are reall y across the country being pressed to teach everything from alcohol educa tion to special programs on marriage counselling, sex and so on, and it's a matter of working these various things that young people should know about judiciously into programs through heal th and guidance , and at the same time enough subjects remaining to provide the academic bases.

I think that this is the only answer I can give the honourable member, that many of these things are indeed in several of the courses, and the courses being designed for the General Course lev el, occupational entrance course le vel, deal more heavily with these day to day things which people coming out of our system should be knowledgeable in to some degree. With respect to the various trade schools ; in the past year, I think about a year ago, some time ago, this was raised previousl y. We have a full-t ime supervisor of trade schools now. It's a personal decision if people wish to go to trade schools.

The large number referred to us undoubtedly people moving in and out of short courses, as .short as two weeks, much like many of the courses we have at MIT. We start courses every Monday morning in pre�mp loyment at MIT, and there are certain courses like bartending that people under

Schedule R, for example can be referred to this school. I don't know of any loans given to students in attendance at private trade schools other than those referred through our

Schedule R. I can say under that

schedule most of the people are handled through our MIT, the large majority. For example , 100 were. in attendance under that technical program at the Institute of Technology, 54 at Brandon last year. You 'll see - for instance one School of Commerce had 6 people referred to it by the Rehabil itation Advisory Committee who deal with these people and the Director of Rehabilitation.

One person went to a private barbering school, but generally all loans that are given under the Student Loan Act and shared with Ottawa are, in vocational education -- the Student Loan Act, of course, is all designed for the post-secondary leve l. The $150, 000 in this appropriation for vocational training is given out to individual students on the basis of need. I don't know of any of these offhand that are going to any of these private schools. Also, I think the biggest majority of these people are in commercial schools in the past year.

Insofar as MITis concerned you can get into certain trades . at MIT with a Grade 9 or that

1000 March 16, 1966 ( MR. JOHNSON, cont' d) .... level which children out of school a year or men -- people coming back to school that have been out of school a year can achieve this by coming up to Level 2 of our basic up-grading program. And this is being done with great success in the last couple of years. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr; Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister a question about vocational schools. On (b) . In the past few years there have been two vocational schools announced and being built.

Has he a plan for the whole province showing where junior vocational schools and full-fledged vocational schools will be built? I think that it's not very fair to all of the people of Manitoba when at election time two particular locations are promised for this type of school. Now we've heard many times this government has prioritie s, and I'd like to know if they have a plan in their priorities in respect to vocational schools.

For instance, the school board of Portage la Prairie has asked about help for the vocational school, and I'm sure there may be other centres in the province that have talked about or made a similar request. So I would like to know if the Department of Education has a plan laid out where all of the province will event ually be served in this manner. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, this is still being worked on and also many boards still have appointments pending with me to discuss these matters such as Portage and Selkirk and different areas who wish to come in. A master plan is being devised.

I can assure the honour able member the intent of the government is to plan a team of regional vocational high schools which they will announce in due course . I can assure my honourable friend that I can't see them being developed on any political basis. I would hope that they're developed in locations which can lend themselves to the divisions who are going to have to operate them. I MR. SHOEMAKER : Mr.

Chairman, what item could we discuss that program that my honourable friend the Minister read into the Hansard on February 1st, headed "Special Educa tion and a Study of the Education of Handicapped Children in Manitoba"? Where would we discuss that? --(Interjec tion) -- We've got one more to go then. MR. CHAIRMAN: ....... passed, (

c) passed, (d) -- MR. SHOEMAKER: Now Mr. Chairman, we've got there. Well, I am not quite clear, Mr. Chairman, whether my honourable friend said that it was the Government's intention to implement everything that he recommended in this five-page portfolio that was laid on our desk on March 1st. Quite frankly, following the stateme nt by the Minister I asked him to supply me with an extra copy of it, and he kindly did so. The reason for my request was that I wanted it to get into the hands of a committee in Neepawa that is working with a class of retarded children there.

I think he is quite aware that a class was established last fall for retarded students , and that they are finding it a pretty costly business. And I think, just to point up what progress they are making, because I know my honourable friend is interested in what progress they are making, that perhaps I could just read this short letter to him. And it says, "Re the Retarded School at Neepawa. At present, six youngsters are attending our school represent ing Rosedale - 2 pupils; Gladstone - 1; Saskatchewan Municipality - 1; Odanah Munici pality - 1; and Minnedosa -1.

One boy from Kelwood has temporarily dropped out due to trans portation and foster home difficulties. These children's I. Q. are below 50 and are called trainable, and their training is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Health, although it's talked about in the other, which will pay grants of $40. 00 per month per child if they have an 80% attendance. This money is paid to the local assoc iation upon certification of attendance through the Manitoba Retarded Children's Associa tion, which deducts 15% to defray their costs of operation.

Our annual budget amount to $6 , 000 per year, all of which is spent on operating costs. Teacher's salary "" $250. 000 a month ; Transportation - 1 09 a mile ; and Foster Home - $5 0. 00 per month . This is an average cost of $1, 000 per pupil per year, $6 , 000 for six pupils. Our classroom in the Hazel M. Killington School is rent-free. Supplies are provided by the parents of the students, $2 .0 0 per month. This is over and above their routine school tax. Equipment, piano, stereo, records, etc. , has been loaned or donated free.

"Beautiful Plains Division is preparing students for university at an annual cost of $495 .0 0 per student. This covers the cost of transportation, adequate salaries and classrooms , lab and library facilities , secretarial and trustee fees, text supplies, etc. , etc. Contributions have been made by service clubs , women's organiz ations, school boards , municipal and town councils , and individuals throughout the area served. Operating a school under these conditions requires a continual aggress ive program to ensure that necessary monies will be available as needed.

No doubt, under a co-ordinated system with res idential care, the same money could be spent to provide far superior services to a wider segment of this handicapped population. It is

March 16 , 1966 1001 (MR. SHOEMAKER: cont'd) .... estimated that 3% of the population is handicapped by mental retardation. Therefore , it is conceivable that some 900 persons in the Neepawa Hea lth Unit area, that has a population of 30, 000, need assistance; not all in the trainable group but certainly more than the six that are taking advantage of the facilities of the Nee pawa and Dis trict Retarded Children's School. Thanking you for your interest.

" Now they have pointed out here that even with a lot of donations and local contributions and the he lp of service cl ubs, they have found with six students that the budget is going to be $1, 000 per child, and certainly they are looking forward hopefully to get some more help from the program that was announced by the Minister on March 1st, and I hope that my honourable friend can assure me that some further help will be forthcoming. Now perhaps , perhaps the Honourable Minister on his left will join with him and we'll have a co-operative effort in this regard.

I have noted here that on Page 3 of the Report it reports the New Vocational Training and Vocational Rehabilitation Programs and so on and so forth. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that I read in the pape r that in Brandon they were proposing to build a centennial project for retarded pupils , and I wonder if my honourable friend could enlighten us on that, because if schools or vocational centres, or call them what you like, can be built as a centennial project, then we could get further Federal and Provincial and local money.

And it seems to me that maybe this is something that other areas could pursue if Brandon is proceeding to do just this. So perhaps my honourable friend coul d enli ghten us there. Another thing that seemed to be rather difficult for me to comprehend was a statement made in the Christianson Report. I just haven't got it here, but on Pages 66 and 67 of that Report it says 535 partially-s ighted - under The Bl ind Persons

section I suppose -b ut only 19 had to attend the School for the Bli nd, and of course the School for the Bli nd that is reported here is in Brantford, Ontario. Now I wonder if that figure of 19 is correct, because it seems to me that 19 out of 535 is a pretty small proportion, so perhaps my honourable friend could make some comment on that as well. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, just briefly , I would tell the honourable member that the plan is to place -- as you understand, the associations there have never had any capital grants previously.

This pla ces, under the control of the Division, the responsibility with grants through, regular school grants both capital and current, to operate classes regionally , I imagine, but to at least 8 children per cl ass - it used to be 10 - that is for educable retarded, also trainable retarded, and on a divisional basis they will be able to organize classes and get capital grants and grants toward teachers' salaries.

Special provision will be made to pick up the hiatus, as it were , by having special certificates issued and in-service training programs for teachers for the retarded, and also curriculum development in association with the Asso ciation for Re tarded Children. Briefly then, the problem has been that they have never had capital grants offered. They have never had teacher grants. They have had the grant of ex $40. 00 per child for 85% attendance per month. This will enable , we hope, better pl anning in the future , and I think this cl ears the air in that regard.

With respect to the Healt h Department, their job will be, as the Minister will outline , in the area of asses sment and reall y all educational of the retarded, the Manitoba School and so on, will come under the Department of Education. In these estimates here that are before you, there 's a considerable increase in staff because we're hiring a psychologist and consul tant to our Special Services Branch to offer more services to the divisions.

With respect to the Centennial program in Brandon, that of course is the National Crusade for the Retarded which is be ing conducted across Canada, and with this program about to be presented to the House and because of this program, it's very possible that the ·people collecti ng the money for a project which they had designed, might like to (we suggested to them) re-exam ine, or examine their project in the light of the developments which were coming up, which would have considerable bearing on what they had originally intended.

And I have met with the chairman of that Drive who has assured us that they wish whatever they accomplish to comple ment that which the Government is doing in this field. There is a big area of vocational and guidance and asses sment services, and so on, and I hope that we can work together in that area. With respect to the bl ind, the students at Brantford, 19 in number, are cla ssified as both needing institutional care. These are classi fied as blind to the point where they require institutionalization. The others are varying degrees of partial bl indness.

They are largely cared for in special classes in the City of Winnipeg at the present time. The figure that he

1002 March 16 , 1966 (MR. JOHNSON: cont'd) .... quoted out of the report, I would like to look into a little further. I haven't got that detail in front of me . MR. CHAffiMAN: (d) -- passed; (e) -- passed. Resolut ion 34 passed. Res olution No. 35 passed. Department of Hea lth. HON. CHAR LES H. WITNEY: (Minister of Heal th) (Fl in Flon) Mr. Chairman, that caught me rather by surprise. From the way things have been going recently I didn't expect to be up quite so soon, but I am pleased to be up.

It's much like the bride waiting at the church when you are waiting to present your Estimates for the last two days or so. During the past year I think, Mr. Chairman, that we can report progress in the Depart ment of Health. The summa ry of activities for the calen dar year of 1965 I think reveal that there has been progress made in several of the various fields that the Department of Health has under its jurisdiction. But in the Report of the Manitoba Hos pital Commission for 1965, I feel that we can also report that progress has been made .

And that progress is to be continued in the amounts of money which we are be ing asked to vote during consideration of the Department's Est imates. For instance, there will be such things as some increase in the activity of rehabili tation. There will be increases in the staffing of our psychiatric hospitals. There will be such matters as the appointment of an ambulance officer and I trust that we will be able to have the ambula nce report tabled in the House within the next few days.

The difficulty has been that the report has been delayed at the printers and on the information I received this afternoon, it should be on the tables of the members by the beginning of next week. We are also in the estimate s before you calling for an expansion of our health units . We expanded into the southwest unit during the past year and we are ca ll ing for an expansion of the heal th unit into the south-central portion of the province including a lab and x-ray facility. And lab and x-ray facil ities will be expanded into the Swan River unit during the coming year. We're cal ling in the capital

section of the estimates for the provision of two new cottages at the Portage la Prairie School for mental retardates, following up the progress that has been made during the past two years with the experience that we have had for the two cottages that are there now. The two cottages that we have at the present time are for males and the two cottages that we will be bui lding at Portage la Prairie will be for female s.

So generall y speaking I fee 1 that the department has made progress during the past year, and what is being asked for this year will continue that progress and we will be able to do what we want to do in providing better health services for the people of the province.

And with respect to Health Services, sometime ago I was asked for a statement with respect to the meeting at Ottawa and I would like at this time to make one with respect to medical services insurance, and ask the Pages if they would be kind enough to distribute a copy of this to the Leader of the Opposition, one to the Leader .. of the NDP, and one to the Social Credit member. The full development of the human resources of Manitoba is a main aim of policy being followed in the province.

Education is one of the first priorities in this connection, but the preser vation of the heal th of the population is also of prime concern to society, for the seeds of education only attain full fruition in a hea lthy people . This concern is reflected in the activities of government and the government of Manitoba is providing extensive and expanding programs in the field of public health services in order to assist any individual in exercising his responsibility to maintain his own health and that of his family.

Medical Services Insurance is a further program which by relieving the fear of excessive costs incurred as a result of ill health, aid the individual in fulfilling this responsibility. The Government of Manitoba maintains that medical services insurance should be available to all res idents of Manitoba at a cost within their means . Studies have shown that approximately 25 percent of the population of Manitoba presently remain uncovered by any form of medical services insurance.

It has also become apparent that of the 75 percent who have some form of medical services insurance coverage , a goodly number do not have adequate coverage; and it is also estimated that an appreciable number find it difficult to meet the cost of adequate coverage . From these studies we are convinced that better arrangements than we have at present are matters of public concern and that we need such better arrangements at the earliest possible moment.

In providing extensive and expanding programs in public health to assist the individual in exercising his responsibility toward his own health and that of his family , it must be noted that the Government of Manitoba has traditionally been responsible for programs in the field of preventive medical service , mental health services, rehabilitation services, environmental sanitation, public health and nurs ing services, dental health services , laboratory and x-ray

March 16 , 1966 10 03 (MR. WITNEY: cont'd) •.•. services, health education, care services. The Government of Manitoba has insured by introducing the Social Allowances Act that it may take such measures as are necessary for the purpose of ensuring that no resident of Manitoba lack such things, g9()dS and services as are essential to his health and well-being including food, shelter and essential surgical, medical, optical, dental and other remedial treatment, care and attention.

This legislation embodies the principle that freedom from disease and freedom from the fear of disease is equal to freedom from other basic wants. Directly arising from this was the Manitoba Medicare Plan available to citizens to whom the Social Allowances applied. This plan provides a full range of personal health services and is presently costing approximately $2 million annually. As a result and according to their needs citizens under Manitoba Medicare have been receiving medical services, dental services, dentures, eye-glasses, hearing aids, appliances, drugs, and associated services as required.

The patient has been free to choose his physician, dentist, etcetera, and we are pleased and proud to acknowledge the co-operation and the contribution of the professions and services involved. All this has been done on the basis of need in showing that the public tax dollar went to the person who needed it most, while at the same time the burdens imposed on the provincial taxpayer were kept to a minimum.

There were others all across Canada who shared the views that freedom from disease and freedom from the fear of disease was equal to freedom from other basic wants, indicating that goveruments should be prepared to assume additional responsibilities in the field of health services. The Government of Manitoba recognized this additional responsibility and expressed its views'to the Royal Commission on Health Services in January of 1962.

One of its recommen dations to the Royal Commission was that a comprehensive prepaid medical coverage be made available to all citizens of Manitoba on a voluntary basis, and we suggested at that time that the Federal Government participate in such a scheme by way of per capita grants to the province.

In our submission to the Royal Commission on Health services the government made it cl ear that in addition to those citizens provided for under the Social Allowances Medicare Pro gram, there were citizens in Manitoba who could not avail themselves of existing non-govern ment medical services insurance plans primarily because of the cost.

The Royal Commission on Health Services published its report in June 1964, and at the Federal-Provincial Conference of last July the Federal Government proposed four principles within which any provincial medical services insurance plan would be required to operate in order to qualify for federal fiscal assistance. The four principles that were put forward by the Federal Government as a definition of qualification were: - 1. Scope of benefits. The plan should offer all services pro vided by physicians, both general practitioners and specialists. 2. Coverage. There must be universal coverage. 3.

Public administration. A universal plan with federal contribution must be a plan for which the provincial government takes full responsibility. 4. Transfera bility of benefit. The provincial plan should provide full transferability of benefits when people are absent from the province or when they move their homes to another province. As proposed in Manitoba's reco=en dations for Medical Services Insurance to the Royal Commi ssion on Health Services, the province would prefer a plan which depends on voluntary enrollment.

We pelieve a voluntary plan based on the individual exercising his responsibility to maintain his own health and that of his family can be formulated at a cost to the individual within the reach of the majority of our people. For those who could not meet the cost, public assistance with all or part of the cost would be available . Such a plan, which we bel ieve could be successful in covering nearly all of our people, should be eligible for federal fiscal assist ance, and we are negotiating to this end.

It is clear, however, that the plan eventually adopted will not work without the co-operation of the medical profession itself. Consequently, discussions have already been initiated with the Manitoba Medical Association in order to analyze problems that may be expected, and generally to devise the means for establishing medical services insurance with the greatest benefit to the health of our people while at the same time respecting the rights and the position of the medical profession, and to promote the continued advance in medical science.

The government is confident that the current negotiations with the federal administration and with the medical profession will enable all the citizens of Manitoba to enjoy the benefits of medical services insurance as soon as possible. Nevertheless, while the social aspect of medical services insurance remains paramount, costs must be considered. For the fiscal pe riod 1958 to 1959, Department of Health estimates totalled $1 0, 718, 000 or $12. 25 per capita.

1004 March 16 , 1966 (MR. WITNEY: cont'd) .... In the fiscal year 1966-67 comparable figures for health es timates are $28,21 4 , 980 or $29. 33 per capita. When hospital premium coll ections are included, then the figure for 1966-67 rises to a total of $41,4 79, 980 or about $43 .0 0 per capita. Thus costs in the present field of health services assumed as a responsibility of government are rising, and any further responsibilities assumed by government in the field of health services must be carefully considered in the light of the ability of our people to sus tain them.

It is recognized that an important factor to consider in relation to medical services insurance is the availabilit y of high quality medical services and trained personnel. In order to assist in the necessary expansion of teaching and resea rch facilities in the fields of health sciences, the Federal Government in July 1965 proposed the establishment of the Health Re sources Fund.

Manitoba, in submitting a tentative program for the expansion of our medical school and research facilities, teaching hospitals, and other health sciences training institutions , which will aggregate in excess of $35 million in the next 15 years for capital construction alone, has been deeply concerned with the fact that no provision has been made so far for federal participation in the operating costs that are involved. The province will be hard-pressed to assume these very large charges at its sole expense.

Unless the Federal Government is pre pared to share in these costs, either through grants or through a fiscal equivalent by which the province may raise the money itself, the rate of development of the program will be seriousl y hampere d. Were it not for the suddenly increased requirements which will be made upon Canadian physicians and Canadian schools of medicine , a much more lengthy process would have per mitted the universities to accept their enla rged responsibility.

It would probably also have been possibl e for steadily increasing educational support to have provided the funds with which the universities could carry out these responsibilities. Under the present circumstances, however, unless new sources of increased operating funds are made available the medical schools will be unable to meet their new and increased responsibility.

The Government of Manitoba will continue to express concern that decisions in this field are necessary to facilitate developments in these plans for expansion in the field of teaching and rese arch until the Federal Government takes the necessary action. It is important to note .that the Manitoba submission to the Royal Commission on Health Services also covered a wide variety of proposals in the general health field as well as the ques tion of medical services insurance.

Included among those which were recommended by the Government of Manitoba for immediate implementation were the following : Cost of the treatment of mental illness should be borne on a fifty-fifty basis between the federal and provincial authorities . The cost of operation of tubercular hospitals and care should be shared on a fifty-fifty basis. Under the Hospital Services Plan there should be a fifty-fifty sharing of depreciation, interest and administration charges.

A new formula should be devised for hos pital construction costs based on a 40% provincial contribution, a 40% federal contribution, and a 20% local contribution. Federal health grants should be subject to an escala tor cl ause to match rising costs in providing services. The Federal Government should provide a per capita grant of 50 cents for the improvement of dental services in the province. From our observations the provinces generally are in agreement on these recommendations. In the case of mental illness their emphatic insistence on action on this point is a matter of re cord.

Action on these recommendations on the part of the Federal Government would permit greater expansion in the field of health services. It is a matte r of concern and regret that the Federal Government has failed to implement the proposals .

Despite disagreements with the Federal Government on the phasing and methods of implementation of certain el ements in the provision of health services, the Government of Manitoba proposes to introduce a medical services insurance plan des igned to provide comprehensive benefits in the field of physicians' services; offer universal coverage; be avail able at a cost within the reach of all; maintain the maximum possible freedom of the individual and of the physician; and to take full advantage of federal participation.

The Federal Government has stated that it will be ready to participate in any plan which qualified on July 1st, 1967, and Manitoba intends to meet that date . Now in concluding the initial comment on the Estimates , I would just like to draw to the attention of the Committee the fact that the staff of the Department of Health have continued to give their normal good service to the people of this province, and as the Minister of Health I would like to extend my appreciation and thanks to them. [ I • I

March 16, 1966 1005 MR. LAURENT DE S.JARDINS (St. Boniface) : I'm at a loss to understand the Minister. He has read this statement on the medical plan and that's all. There's no initial statement at all on his Estimates. We haven't covered anything at all, just this medical service insurance that he's tabled or passed around to the different parties and that he read. There's no Esti mates at all. I wonder if this is what he intends to do -not make any statement at all except what he has done right now. (Interjection) Well that's fine. On this last statement read by the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, I might say that I agree with most of what's been said in this paper. I say I agree because we just received this today. We never had a chance to look at it as a party or party policy. I have said before that I don't like the compulsory part of this plan. I would think that what has been said in the paper are certain things that have been said in this House by many of the members in this House before. I would urge the Provincial Government to keep on negotiRting with the Federal, and I don't think that they should be rushed into a special date if we are not satisfied.

I think that we shouldholdon for what we think is right, and we should not be ready to commit ourselves to any date unless we are satisfied that we have had proper negotiation. I couldn't help but smile though when the Minister was reading this and all the demands made in Ottawa, although I agree with the Minister; but my leader a few years ago said pretty well the same thing that in this field he felt that Ottawa should do more -- of course we had a different government in Ottawa at the time -- and I thought the members on the other side were going to laugh him right o:ut of the House.

They felt that it was a responsibility uf the Government. They asked him what he would oo and he did say that he expected more money in these things from the Federal Government, and they didn't agree with him, they felt that he must have a plan. And there is another thing. I think the Minister -- there must be some kind of an error here, "it is a matter of concern and regret", on page 7, "that the Federal Government has failed to implement these proposals.

" I think if you want to be fair we should say the Federal Governments, because the last two governments received the demands the same demands, and nothing has been done. I hope that he will keep asking for these things that we feel fair and that all the provinces will stick together on certain things such as more help for mental health. Mr. Chairman, we had a very important document a few years ago called the Willard Report. This was a report that was going to change a lot of things in Manitoba.

The first part of this Report the Hospital Faci lities was tabled on March 23rd, 1961, and the second part, the personnel. Treating with Personnel, was tabled on June 17th, 1963. Now in the Throne Speech the Minister told us that or the Government told us that since 1958 we had 44 new hos pital projects for a total of $40 1/2 million and that almost all these projects were completed. In the Annual Report of the Manitoba Hospital Commission they talk about 48 projects at a cost of $40 :Y2 million. I would like to know where those other 4 projects went.

I would like the Minister to - this is on page 22 of the Report No. 3 - Hospital Fa cilities and Services. Then, we hear in the Throne Speech about 25 more projects estimated at $21 million were to start in 1966. I think that the Minister should give us a list of all these different pro jec ts with the estima ted cost. In fact, I think that the Minister should put our list in order - the

schedule that we received in 1962. I think we should review the

schedule of all the pro grams that were approved and the date that they were supposed to be started. We realize that many of those were approved but we've never started. And then also the

summary of the hos Pital construction projects as of December 31 st, 1962. Because we haven't followed the Wil lard Report at all, Mr. Chairman. We have spent $40 million and all of a sudden in one year, I'm sure it's purely an accident that this might be an election year, we're going to catch up with all the work that we haven't done, and we'll spend $21 million. Now by not proceeding, by not keeping up with the recommendations of the Report, the costs are much higher now than they would have been.

While we are talking about the cost of capital construction, I would ask the Minister or the Premier, if any part of the money in the Canadian Pension Plan will be available to finance any of our hospital construction? And if so, it will be a saving there also. Now I was sure that the Minister would give us a statement on the Children's Hospital because this is something that has been of much concern to the people of Manitoba. On Febru ary 2nd, '65, we were told that the City Hospital expansion was set.

We were told what would be done and what had been accepted; but a year later the people interested in the Children's Hospital had to call a general meeting to try to explain the delay on the Children's Hospital. One of the - I'm not going to read too much about this but I think we all remember that these

1006 March 16, 1966 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••. people were quite disturbed at the time for the lack of action, it seemed lack of interest, and many accus ations were directed toward the Minister and the Commissi on at the time . And here 's this Mrs. Rich ard, the President of the Board of Direct ors at the hospital sa ying that "we feel that the time has come to tell our members what has gone on here since 1958, when we first found the hospital building, opened a year before, would soon be too small. We kept telling them there were more negotiations, now we are running out of answ ers .

I personally think we are dealing with a delibera te delaying tactic on the part of the Hospital Commission. I am so irri tated and frustrated, I could scream. " And I could read quite a few but I think there is no need for this, the Minister is well aware of what I am spea king about. I think that we should, when we are dealing with children especia lly, I think that we are interested and I think that something should be done very soon.

I won't prolong this thing of the Children 's Hospital, but I certa inly would like the Minister to come out with a statement assuring us that there will be no further delay, that everything will be done to have this building of the Children 's Hospital proceeded with as soon as possi ble. Now there is the question of the Deer Lodge Hospital. I'm trying to follow, Mr. Chair man, follow the trend started with the Minister in trying to be very short on these things.

I am just questioning certain things and I hope that the Minister will be able to answer and if so, well there's no use going into this too deeply - too profoundly, so I'll skip over some of these things. I'll just mention it and hope that he will have the answers and if not well then we can go into these things a little more. Now there's the question of Deer Lodge. A few years ago we were told that the Federa l Government felt they would be ready to - well like the Financial Post of Februa ry 27th, 1964 sa id -t o unload DVA hospitals .

There was supposed to be correspondence and meetings bet ween the then Minister of Health of this Province, and other provinces of course, and the Federal Government. We never rece ived too much information on this . If you look in Hansard of last year and the year before you will see that we were kept in the dark. Now this is a very important thing when we're trying to get more acute beds for the people of Manitoba, When we are going to spend $21 million to build more beds.

When my leader mentioned this in his reply to the Throne Speech, the First Minister was pretty peeved, pretty hurt, and he protested quite strongly.

And he told us that these beds were being used, Well I asked certa in questions from the Minister and I recei ved some answers but not satisf actory and I wonder if the Minister could, once and for all I think he should be ready to table all the correspondence between the Federal Government and his Department over the last few years, pertaining to the Deer Lodge Hospital, and to tell us what kind of agreem ent has been reached between the two governments, if any ; and if not, what is holding this up. But this is something that we would like to know.

I think that this is something that is important when the cost of building hospitals is so great . Well one thing that I would like to do is - I have in front of me here the Comparison of Provincial Hospital Plans , and I would like to look into the certain -n ot all of it but certain points in here and maybe make a few remarks on some of them. Well, there's the method of provincial financing. Ri ght now in Manitoba we'r e finan ced by grants from the Consoli dated Revenue, from the hospitalization or income tax, although this has been reduced, and from the premi ums .

Now, of the ten provinces only three of the provinces collect premi ums. Saskatchewan have the sa me premi ums as we have . It seems that we've copied Saskatchewan to the letter, and not too long ago the First Minister and the Honourable Minister of Health in what I felt was trying to prepare the people for an increase in premiums, stated that Ontario had larger premi ums. But I wish that in these things we 'd tell all the truth, all the fiction. That's true. Ontario has larger premiums, but they do not collect a hospital tax.

Now certain - as I said only three of the provinces have a premi um and it is felt that if you - many people feel that if you are to do away with the premiums well then you would have to implement a sales tax. And I don't think that this is the case at all , Mr. Chairman. I would like the government to come back to what they did a few years ago when this House decided, I think unanimously, that a fair way would be to have this hospital tax. This was giving us a chance of establishing an ability to pay. Nobody likes paying tax but it was felt that this was a fair tax; and I think that we should go back to this.

There 's no reason in the world why this tax should have been reduced and the premi ums should go up . In fact, Mr, Chairma n, I think that we should do away with premiu ms. I think that we can do this if we have this tax and then the financing should come from the Consolidated Revenue also. But I think that a companion change, if I can use this word, and I think it's something that - maybe -

March 16, 1966 1007 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) .•• the government is afraid to bring it because it might not be too popular to start with, but I think it would do an awful lot of good - would be a utilization fee. Now this wouldn't be too difficult for the, taxpayer would no longer have to pay any premiums, and the people who are using these hospital facilities, they are the ones that would have to pay this utilization fee. We have such fees now, Mr. Chairman. Everybody pays for the construction of roads and so on.

But isn't it a case that the people that use them will pay -- maybe they're called something else, but will pay a tax on gas for instance. This is a utilization fee. I feel that this certainly would be a deterrent and this would be easier to collect now if we didn't have any premiums at all. But I hasten to say, Mr. Chairman, that of course we should have a good and fair formula.

I'm not talking about the administration but of the principle when I'm talking about this utilization fee doing away with the premiums, but we should have a good and fair formula that would have a catastrophe clause protecting the people from unforeseen and unreasonable cost. I think this would be fair under this new system of financing. Some people who are now living in remote parts of the province and who are not receiving any service at all would not be penalized and wouldn't have to pay the premiums.

Now we can come back to this, open up the -- I think this would help -- this would deal also with the building of acute beds, this would change this I'm sure, and we might come back to this a little later on. Now also in this administration of this provincial hospital plan, there's the method of hospital payments. Well at the moment the different hospitals receive semi-monthly cheques I guess based on the net approved budget only. Nothing pays for the deficit. The different hospitals must wait till the end of the year. Now, Mr.

Chairman, in view of the fact that the Commission doesn't pay the interest on overdrafts -- the different hospitals must pay this - well, I think that the Commission and the Minister should institute the interim measure to review deficit, and I think this should be done periodically, not wait till the end of the year. In other words, let the hospitals know where they are going and what to expect. And then under Adjustment of Hospital Payments, at present the government seem to be very liberal and it tells the hospitals, the different hospitals, well you can keep two per cent of the surplus. But, Mr.

Chairman, the hospitals are not too happy with this, because this is not a benefit at all, because lately whoever is responsible for approving the budget makes darn sure there's no surplus at all. There's always a deficit. So this sounds very good on paper, it looks very good, but this is not giving anything to the different hospitals. Then I'm pleased to see that the government was asking more money from the Federal Government, the Minister was asking more money from the Federal Government for deprecia tion, and I guess that he realized that he had to do something on this fairly soon.

For three years in a row I've mentioned this question of, that the depreciation on the equipment, 6 1/4 percent or 1/16th wasn't enough. When a hospital has to pay a very ordinary fee to buy a very ordinary piece of, let's say, x-ray equipment for $50, - 60, 000 they haven't much left. Now, we know that this kind of equipment depreciates at a much faster rate, and last year I believe that the Minister said that this would be looked into or was being looked into.

Well, I think that the Minister realizes now that this has been looked into for the last two or three years, and it's time something should be done for this -- increase the percentage allowed for depre ciation, especially on equipment. Now when we started this Plan and this is why the people were paying these premiums, we were trying to establish that all the people would be the same. No second class citizens here in Manitoba.

But the way the municipalities are paying premiums for the indigents now, I think that it is still the same thing, these people feel more or less like if they're begging, and this is one of the reasons again that I feel that we should do away with these premiums. And when we're talking about these premiums, and this is a question that I would like the Minister to answer, I would like to know how much of -- I think the - .• .•. I think it's about approxi mately a million and a half dollars for the administration of the Plan -- how much of this is for the collection of premiums.

Now I'm taling about collection of premiums, the commissions given different municipalities or other agencies collecting these premiums, the advertising and so on -- all the cost of collecting these premiums, because I think that we might be surprised, we might feel that it is quite high; and again this is money that could be used to better advan tage by the people of Manitoba. Now in the benefits, I feel that people living in certain areas of the province are being discriminated against.

I said this last year there is no reason why people needing physio therapy should be - I'm talking about out-patients now - should be insured in the rehab I I I I I i

1008 March 16, 1966 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ... hospitals and well, anyway these places are mentioned in here. There 's four - Manitoba Rehabilitation Hospital, Princess Elizabeth Hospital, in Winnipeg, Assiniboine Hospital in Brandon, and Dauphin General Hospital in Dauphin. Why is it that people living in other areas in other parts of the Greater Winnipeg area are discriminated against? Last year the Minister recei ved an answer that St. Boniface, because I did at the time mention St. Boniface, the reason why St. Boniface could not be considered in this same group as this because St.

Boniface had a shortage, St. Boniface Hospital had a shortage of physiotherapists. Well this, the Administrator of St. Boniface Hospital felt it was quite insult ing because they didn't believe that to be the case at all. Oh, it's true that around the province we have a shortage of physiotherapists but none exist in St. Boniface and they certainly were not going to go around trying to hire physiotherapists just to show the Board or the Minister that they could get them.

They have all the physiotherapists that they need now and this is not a valid reason and I did mention this -- between sessions I think that I was talking to the Minif' ter on this, or to somebody in the department, I don't recall now -- and I was told again that we were looking into this. Well I think that this has gone far enough also and that we should include all other hospitals who are ready and who are in a position to give this service also. There are certain doctors who practice at certain hospita ls, this is where they want their patients even though they're considered out.

They're not staying iii. the hospital because that of course -- everybody staying in the hospital is insure d at the time, and if there's a shortage and if they're not qualified to give this why is it this service is considered as insured for the people that are staying in the hospital. It doesn't make sense, Mr. Chairman. And espec ially now that we are -- we seem to be developing our own physiothe rapists here because we are developing our own here in Manitoba, we have a school for physiotherapists. Well maybe we can come back on this later on.

I'm sure that if the Minister will bring in remarks about this suggesting that I have, especia lly on these two companion suggestions of doing away with the premiums here in Manitoba and starting utilization fees, I think that we would have much benefit •... Now a few years ago, Mr. Chairman, I criticized the Commissi on quite strongly for its lack of co-operation and its dictatorial ways. \\ell I'm pleased to report that it is felt all across Manitoba that there's much better co-operation now between the Commiss ion and the hospitals of Manitoba. There certainly have been marked improvement in that respect.

I think that this co-operation between the Board -- the Commission I should say, and the hos pitals is important enough to note at this time . However, Mr. Chairman, there is a point that is not understandable and ce rtainly is not justified - something that I mentioned last year -- I didn't get any answer, or certainly no satisfactory answer -- and I'm talking about the secret formula that the Commiss ion has to determine what they will do about a certain budget.

People are asked to prepare their budgets and they have to stay within certain limits, especially in the field of nursing and so on, but they are told that well this is a secret formula, we can't tell you what this is all about. If there 's any other example of any Board or any Commissi on or government having a secret formula in all Manitoba, in all Canada, I would like to know about it. This is kind of ridicu lous and I think that this should be stopped.

I think that the people of Manitoba should know what this secret formula is and I think that the people who are asked to prepare budgets should be told what the secret formula is all about. I suspect, Mr.

Chairman, that one of the rea sons is because at the present the student nur ses are helping to subsidize this Hospital Plan here in Manitoba, because they are certainly working extra hours, hours that are not needed to furthe r th eir education, A few years ago we were assured that this wasn't the case and the then Minister of Education even gave me the hours that they were required to work, but I soon found out and I informed the Minister at the time this wasn't the case at all, that they were working many more hours.

For instance, when I was a patient a few months ago in the General Hospital, some shift, the head nurse was a third year student; the second nur se - thi s was in a private ward - the second nur se was a second year student; and there was a nurse's aide. I want to say right away that I recei ved excellent service; no complaints there at all. I think that there should be a happy medium. I think that there should be a registered nurse in charge, and on certain shifts there wasn't, but there was no complaint at all. But these girls were working a full shift and they were working.

They weren't there -- of course the Minister might say every time you work you're gaining experience - there's no doubt about that at all, but these girls are not paid at all and this is one of the reasons that they' re so I

March 16, 1966 1009 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••• fed up. They work so hard that as soon as they graduate they want to leave, they want to leave the province, and this is one of the reasons why we have a shortage of nurses. I think it is high time that we look into this. We should know what this secret formula is all about. And also this other point that I touched, I think that we should once and for all find out how many hours of experience, hours of work on diffe rent wards are required. I'm not against these girls working. We have a shortage of nurses.

It might be possible that they could finish their course sooner, or at least if we want to keep on with the three years - I'm not an educator, I don't know too much about this and I don't pretend that I do - but at least let's not use them to subsidize the Plan, because this is it, this is what we're doing, and I think that the Minister would be the first one to admit that without these student nurses here in these larger hospitals in the Greater Winnipeg area, we'd have to close these hospitals. Again I repeat, Mr. Chairman, that I'm not complaining. I think that these girls do excellent work.

I'm talking about the principle now. These girls are not paid a cent. In certain places they have to pay tuition. Maybe the least we could do is do away with this, this tuition. But we will come back to the nursing profession a little later, Mr. Chairman. The main point that I was trying to make is this question of the secret formula. This is where - I find in my notes now - the cost of administration for the Commission is $1, 62 0, 846. 53, and I repeat again, I would like to know how much of this is for collecting premiums. I'm talking about everything - the advertising, the stationery and so on.

Another thing the government keeps repeating is that the cost of this Plan is increas ing, so the government - and this was done especially last year by the First Minister - wanted to show how much more the government was spending. Well there's no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that by adding more meat to the grinder you'll have more sausage, and more services are provided, it's not just the same thing that costs more. There's something I object to, Mr. Chairman and it's very difficult to study

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-5-43
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 5th hansardpdf 43.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	976b57cc3962b8093b8f9c0a63d8aa5539314514

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