Manitoba Hansard — 5 July 2001 (Sitting 58B, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-58b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 58B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, July 5, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETI, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKL Bonnie LA THLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gorcl Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MORRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH. Scott, Hon. STEFANSON. Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norben La Verendrye FonWhyte St. Johns Anhur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia FonRouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface FonGarry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P.

P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3559 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, July 5, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Steve Jones, Faraz Shere, Tracy King and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support con struction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Joy Enright, Lisa Bernier, Karen Stonyk and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr.

Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollu te the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pol lute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. *( 13: 35)

3560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on LawAmendments Sixth Report Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Six th Report of the Commit tee on Law Amendments. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Commit tee on Law Amendments presents the following- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Sixth Report. Meetings: Your committee met on the following dates: Thursday, June 28, 20 0I, at IO a.m.

Tuesday, July 3, 20 0I, at 6:30p.m. All meetings took place in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

Matters Under Consideration: Bill II- The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives Bill 23-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act/Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route Bill 33-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (2)/Loi n° 2 modifiant le Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives Bill 35-The Improved Enforcement of Support Payments (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant a faciliter Ia perception des paiements alimentaires (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives) Bill 36-The Enhanced Debt Collection (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant a faciliter le recouvrement des creances (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives) Bill 37-The Inter-jurisdictional Support Orders Act/Loi sur /'etablissement et /'execution reciproque des ordonnances a/imentaires Bill 46-The Provincial Court Amendment and Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour provinciale et Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine Bill 49-The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 20 0I!Loi corrective de 20 0I Membership Resignations/Elections: Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting on June 28, 20 0I, at IO a.m.: Hon. Mr. Ashton for Hon. Ms. Barrett; Mr. Reid for Hon. Mr. Chomiak; Hon. Mr. Mackintosh for Hon. Mr. Selinger; Ms. Allan for Mr. Aglugub; Mr. Praznikfor Mrs. Driedger; Mr. Cummings for Mr. Gilles hammer; Mr. Reimer for Mrs. Mitchelson. Substituti ons received during meeting on June 28 , 20 0I, at IO a.m. , by leave: Ms. Korzeniowski for Hon. Mr. Lemieux.

Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting on July 3, 20 0I, at 6:30p.m. : Mr. Gilleshammer for Mr. Cummings; Mr. Faurscho uf or Mr. Reimer. Public Presentations: The following individuals and/or organizations made presentations on Bill II-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amend ments Act/Loi modifiant le Code de /a route et modifications correlatives: Sharon Stewart, Private Citizen Donald Dewar, Keystone Producers Inc. Agricultural -

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3561 Shawn Feely, IMPACT, The Injury Prevention Centre of Children's Hospital Terry Johns, Coalition of Manitoba Motorcycle Groups The following individuals and/or organizations made presentations on Bill 23-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act/Loi modifiant le Code de la route: Donald Dewar, Keystone Agricultural Producers Inc.

Greg Riou, Heavy Equipment Rental Association of Manitoba The following individuals and/or organizations made presentations on Bill 33-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amend ments Act (2)/Loi n" 2 modifiant le Code de la route et modifications correlatives: Josh Weinstein, Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties The following individuals and/or organizations made presentations on Bill 35-The Improved Enforcement of Support Payments (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant afaciliter la perception des paiements alimentaires (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives): Paula Mallea, Private Citizen The following individuals and/or organizations made presentations on Bill 37-The Inter jurisdictional Support Orders Act/Loi sur l'etablissement et /'execution reciproque des ordonnances alimentaires: Paula Mallea, Private Citizen John Stefaniuk, Canadian Bankers Association The following individuals and/or organizations made presentations on Bill 46-The Provincial Court Amendment and Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur Ia Cour provinciale et !a

Loi sur la Cour du Bane de la Reine: Robb Tonn and Linda Giesbrecht, Provincial Judges Association Written Submissions: The following individuals and/or organizations offered written submissions to the Committee on Bill II -The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant le Code de la route et modifications correlatives: Tristan Goertzen, Private Citizen The following individuals and/or organizations offered written submissions to the Committee on Bil/ 23-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act/Loi modifiant le Code de la route: Chris Lorenc, Manitoba's Heavy Construction Association Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 11-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant le Code de la route et modifications correlatives Your committee has agreed to report the bill, with the following amendments: THAT the following be added after

section 4 of the Bill: 4.I The centred heading before

section 26 and

section 26 are repealed. THAT

section 5 of the Bill be amended (

a) by striking out the part before the proposed centred heading "NOVICE DRIVERS" and substituting "The following is added after

section 26:",· (

b) by renumbering the proposed subsections 26(1) to (5) as subsections 26.I(

l) to (5),· (

c) in the proposed clause 26.I (I) (m), by striking out ", or blood alcohol concentration levels of zero, for novice or" and substituting "for"; (

d) in the proposed clause 26.I (l)(n), by striking out "his or her blood alcohol concentration level exceeds the prescribed level" and substituting "he or she has any alcohol in his or her blood";

3562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 (

e) in the proposed clause 26.1(l)(r), by striking out "driver's blood alcohol concentration level exceeds the prescribed level" and substituting "driver has any alcohol in his or her blood"; and (

f) by adding the following after the proposed clause 26.1(l){r): (r.1) respecting the removal and storage of a vehicle, and any towed equipment, being driven by a novice driver when he or she has been found to be driving with alcohol in his or her blood, and respecting the enforcement of the costs of removal and storage; THAT the following be added after

section 5 of the Bill: 5.1 The following is added after

section 26.1: Stages for novice drivers 26.2(1) A novice driver must hold a class or subclass of licence prescribed for novice drivers (

a) in the learner stage for at least nine months before being eligible to progress to the intermediate stage; {

b) in the intermediate stage for at least 15 months before being eligible to progress to the full stage; and (

c) in the full stage for at least 12 months before he or she is no longer a novice driver. Exemption for existing licences 26.2(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a licence that is issued before the day on which this

section comes into force. Zero BAC level: novice drivers 26.3 No novice driver shall, while he or she has any alcohol in his or her blood, operate or have care or control of (

a) a motor vehicle or off-road vehicle; or {

b) an implement of husbandry, special mobile machine or tractor. Restrictions at learner stage for class 5 vehicles 26.4(1) A novice driver who holds a class or subclass of licence prescribed for novice drivers in the learner stage entitling him or her to operate a class 5 vehicle shall not (

a) operate a class 5 vehicle unless a supervising driver is in it; (

b) operate the vehicle (

i) with anyone else in the .front seat other than the supervising driver, or (ii) with anyone in the part of the vehicle behind the .front seat except in a seating position that is equipped with a seat belt; (

c) tow another vehicle; or (

d) operate an off-road vehicle on or across a highway. Restrictions at intermediate stage for class 5 vehicles 26.4(2) A novice driver who holds a class or subclass of licence prescribed for novice drivers in the intermediate stage entitling him or her to operate a class 5 vehicle shall not, (

a) between 5:00 a.m. and midnight, operate a class 5 vehicle with more than one passenger in the .front seat or with anyone in the part of the vehicle behind the .front seat except in a seating position that is equipped with a seat belt; and (

b) between midnight and 5:00 a.m., operate a class 5 vehicle (

i) with more than one passenger in the vehicle, unless a supervising driver is in the vehicle, or (ii) when a supervising driver is in the vehicle, with anyone else in the .front seat other than the supervising driver, or with anyone in the part of the vehicle behind the .front seat except in a seating position that is equipped with a seat belt. THAT the following be added after

section 22 of the Bill: 22.1 Clause 319(l)(vv) is replaced with the following: (vv) prescribing classes and subclasses of licence required to operate or learn to operate a -

July 5, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 35 63 specified class or type of vehicle or more than one class or type of vehicle, prescribing fees for examinations for various classes and subclasses of licences, governing drivers who hold parti cular classes or subclasses of licences, and prescribing conditions and restrictions that shall apply to any class or subclass of licence; Bill 23-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act!Loi modifiant le Code de la route Your committee has agreed to report the bill, with the following amendments: THAT the proposed subsection 24(1.1), as set out in

section 4 of the Bill, be replaced with the following: Licence required to operate tractors, etc. 24(1.1) Every person shall, before operating an implement of husbandry, special mobile machine or tractor on a provincial highway, or a highway within the municipal boundaries of a city, town, village or urban municipality, obtain and have in his or her possession a valid and subsisting licence of a class that authorizes him or her to drive a class 5 vehicle, as defined in the regulations, without a full-time supervising driver. THAT clause 21 (2){

b) of the English version of the Bill be replaced with the following. (

b) in the subsection, by striking out "clauses (l)(a}, (

c) and (

d) do" and substituti ng "clause (l)(

d) does". Bill 33-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (2)/Loi n" 2 modifiant le Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives Your committee has agreed to report the bill, with the following amendments: THAT

section 7 of the Bill be amended by adding the following after the proposed subsection 242.3(40): Sending confirmation statement 242.3(40.1) Instead of sending a copy of a registered financing statement to a motor vehicle owner, secured party or insurance company under subsection (9), (11) or (36), the designated person may send the owner, party or company a copy of a statement, issued by the Personal Property Registry, confirming regis tration of the financing statement. THAT the proposed subsection 264(1), as set out in subsection 9(]) of the Bill, be amended in clause (

d) of the definition "Category A offence" by striking out "or

section 263.1 or 265". THAT the proposed subsection 264(1.1), as set out in subsection 9(1) of the Bill, be amended by striking out "a series" and substituting "an unrelated series". THAT subsection 12(2) be amended by striking out "subsection 6(1)" and substituting "subsection 9(1)". Bill 35-The Improved Enforcement of Support Payments (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant a faciliter Ia perception des paiements alimentaires (modification de diverses dispositions Iegislatives) Your committee has agreed to report the bill, with the following amendments: THAT subsection 59.4(3), as set out in

section 13 of the Bill, be amended (

a) in clause (a), by striking out "on the personal property of the person in default" and substituting "on all personal property of the person in default, including proceeds and after acquired personal property"; and {

b) by replacing clause (

b) with the following: (

b) is deemed to have been perfected on the day (

i) the maintenance was due, (ii) the enforcement provisions of this Part become applicable to the order, or (iii) this

section comes into force; whichever occurs last. THAT subsection 59.4(5), as set out in

section 13 of the Bill, be amended in the part before clause (

a) by striking out "before or after the

3564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 maintenance was due and payable" and substituting "after the lien and charge was perfected". Bill 36-The Enhanced Debt Collection (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi visant a faciliter le recouvrement des creances (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives) Your committee has agreed to report the bill, without amendment. Bill 37-The Inter-jurisdictional Support Orders Act/Loi sur l'etablissement et /'execution reciproque des ordonnances alimentaires Your committee has agreed to report the bill. without amendment. Bill 46-The Provincial Court Amendment and Court of Queen's Bench Amendment Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour provinciale et Ia Lot sur Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine Your committee has agreed to report the bill, without amendment. Bill 49-The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2001/Loi corrective de 2001 Your committee has agreed to report the bill, without amendment. Mr. Martindale: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Muni cipal Affairs Third Report Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report of the Committee on Municipal Affairs.

Madam Clerk: Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the following as its Third Report. Meetings: Your committee met on Tuesday, July 3, 2001, at 6:30 p.m. in room 254 of the Legislative Building. Matters Under Consideration: Bill-25 The Health Services Insurance Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie et modifications correlatives Bill-28 The Labour-Sponsored Investment Funds (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi sur les fonds de placement des travailleurs (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives) Bill 50-The Regional Health Authorities Amendment (Accountability) Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur /es offices regionaux de Ia sante (responsabilites) Membership Resignations/Elections: Substitutions received prior to commencement of the meeting: Mr. Tweed for Mr. Maguire Mrs. Driedger for Mr. Faurschou Mr. Loewen for Mr. Laurendeau Han. Ms. Mihychuk for Mr. Martindale Han. Ms. Barrett for Han. Ms. Friesen Han. Mr. Chomiak for Han. Ms. McGifford Mr. Struthers for Mr. Aglugub Han. Mr. Sale for Han. Mr. Selinger Public Presentations: Your committee heard seven presentations on Bill 25-The Health Services Insurance Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie et modifications correlatives, from the following individuals and/or organizations: Cory Sui, Private Citizen Robert Chernomas, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives Albert Cerilli, President, Manitoba Federation of Union Retirees Margot Lavoie & Brother Thomas Novak, Manitoba Oblate Justice & Peace Committee

July 5, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3565 Carolyn DeCoster, Private Citizen Madeline Boscoe & Carol Scurfield, Women's Health Clinic Paul Moist & Lorraine Sigurdson, Canadian Union of Public Employees Your committee heard four presentations on Bill 50-The Regional Health Authorities Amendment (Accountability) Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les offices n?gionaux de Ia sante (responsabilites), from the following individuals and/or organizations: Heather Temple, CEO, Middlechurch Home of Winnipeg Mr. Michael Doiron, The Interfaith Healthcare Association of Manitoba Raymond Lafond, Catholic Health Association of Manitoba Real Cloutier, Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Written Submissions: The committee received one written submission on Bill 25-The Health Services Insurance Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie et modifications correlatives, from: Linda West, Private Citizen Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 25-The Health Services Insurance Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie et modifications correlatives Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment, on division. Bill 28-The Labour-Sponsored Investment Funds (Various Acts Amended) Act/Loi sur les fonds de placement des travailleurs (modification de diverses dispositions legislatives) Your committee agreed to report this bill with the following amendments: THAT the part of the proposed definition ''placement peu important admissible" before clause (a), as set out in the French version of clause 2(l){

a) of the Bill, be amended by striking out "0000" and substituting "000.., THAT subsection 14(2) of the Bill be amended by striking out "and" at the end of clause (

a) and by adding the following after clause (a): (a.1) by repealing clause (a); and THAT subsection 36(2) of the Bill be replaced with the following: 36(2) Subsection 16(2),

section 28 and subsection 29(2) come into force on a day fixed by proclamation. 36(2.1)

Section 17 comes into force on January 1, 2002 or any later day fixed by proclamation made before January 1, 2002. Bill 50-The Regional Health Authorities Amendment (Accountability) Act/Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur /es offices regionaux de Ia sante (responsabilites) Your committee agreed to report this bill without amendment. Mr. Nevakshonoff: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2000-200 1 Annual Report of the Manitoba Tire Stewardship Board. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Ni cholas and Mark Loewen who are the sons of the honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

3566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 2001 * (13:40) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Election Promises Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, under this Premier's watch the nursing shortage has doubled, waiting lists have grown longer and in the last year and a half, three people have died waiting in rooms and waiting for care. He ought to be disgusted with his record in terms of failings and broken promises.

Why did this Premier mislead Manitobans day after day in the election campaign saying: Elect me and I will solve all your health care ills in six months with $1 5 million? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The number of graduates in nursing by the year 2002, our first full graduating year, will be triple that of 1999. Secondly, the Chief Medical Examiner has reviewed the cases referenced by the member opposite, and the Chief Medical Examiner will review all the circumstances with the Rogalsky death. We respect the role of the Chief Medical Examiner, and I hope the member opposite does as well. Mr.

Murray: Manitobans, when it comes to health care, are tired of this Premier's excuses, and they are tired of him blaming everyone else for his failures. He did not promise to reduce the number of patients in hallways; he promised to eliminate them. He did not promise to just offer more training opportunities; he promised to immediately hire more nurses and immediately convert part-time nurses into full-time nurses. I quote from what he said, Mr. Speaker always go back to the source: Doer aims for more full-time nurses.

NDP Leader Gary Doer said his party will attract more nurses to the province by converting part-time positions to full-time positions. That seems to be a logical step forward, Doer said. Now that he is Premier, what we hear is: Well, you cannot just add water and stir and mix to get a nurse. Why then did the Premier mislead Manitobans and say he could? It is another election broken promise. Mr. Speaker: Order. Prior to recognizing the honourable First Minister, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members when referring to a member, by constituency or ministers by their portfolios.

I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, in the rhetoric of the member opposite, which is regrettable, the member made a number of statements. One is: blame someone else. We have said that we will accept and respect and deal with any recommendations that come from the Chief Medical Examiner. We had said that yesterday. We say that again today in the House. We say that dealing with other matters that have been raised before them. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the issue of hallway patients, there was an allegation made yesterday in the House that this contributed to the situation. There were no patients in the hallways at Seven Oaks on the day-[interjection} Well, if the members want to heckle about a very serious matter, I am very disappointed. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Premier has said over and over and over that a promise made is a promise kept. In his own news release, he states: Today's NDP is not going to make promises galore and then break 40 percent of them. These are the Premier's election releases. A stack of broken promises.

Can the Premier tell the friends and the family of Herman Rogalsky and all Manitobans why he made numerous policies and numerous promises on health care and he knew he could not deliver on them? Manitobans have no reason to trust this Premier. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there is a very serious number of questions that are being raised by Manitobans, by the public, by people in this

July 5, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3567 Chamber and by the Rogalsky family. Those questions deserve answers. They do not deserve to have a rerun of a political disagreement. The issue of hallways and their contribution to the situation will be examined by the Chief Medical Examiner, the same process that was used, for example, when the Chief Medical Examiner determined that an inquest was necessary after the 12 baby deaths in 1995. The two cases the member referenced earlier and the case today have been reviewed by the Chief Medical Examiner.

There was no recommendation for any inquest following those cases. This case and the concerns and the questions raised, including hallway medicine, our information was that there were no patients in the hallways on the Saturday at Seven Oaks, where the patient was taken by his family {interjection} I think that heckling is unbe coming of members opposite on such a serious matter, Mr. Speaker. * (13:45) Private Health Care Clinics Government Position Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, waiting lists are longer, the nursing shortage has doubled, patients are now having to go out of province for care, rural health care facilities are closed for weeks on end, and, hang onto your gurney, it is getting worse. It is not just the patients and the families who are in pain, but it is also the nurses, the doctors and the many other health care professionals who are feeling the pain of the Doer government's deteriorating health care system. When will this Premier recognize that the status quo is not working? It is not keeping up to the growing demand.

Will he open up his mind to a collaboration with publicly funded, privately run health care clinics? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, dealing with the answer to the last question, with the heckling, I was unable to complete my answer. The question was asked about the Roga1sky family and Mr. Rogalsky. As I said before, the matter will be fully examined by the Chief Medical Examiner of Manitoba. The issue of nurses, the issue of hallways, whether there were any patients in the hallways, we are led to believe there were none in both hospitals during that time. The issue of staffing [interjection] Mr.

Murray: Mr. Speaker, I think the issue is the deteriorating health care system under his watch. That is what the question is about. The Premier should learn from his mistakes that he has made. Manitobans know full well what he promised during the election campaign, and now they know that he has broken his promises. They have had enough of his mis leading and broken promises. The Premier's status quo health care system is failing Manitobans. There are public-private health care systems around the world that are working better than Manitoba's.

Why will this Premier not be open to reviewing them and, whatever is working there, bring it here and make it work in Manitoba? Mr. Doer: To complete the question, before I was shouted down, from two questions ago, the assertions and allegations made by the Leader of the Opposition and all the other questions raised by the family and the public, every one of those questions and the issues will be independently evaluated by the person that has the quali fications, the credentials, the independence and responsibility to do so.

That will not be the Leader of the Opposition, it will be the Chief Medical Examiner of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we will heed the advice and findings of the Chief Medical Examiner, as I would suggest is crucial. On the second last question dealing with a mix of public and private, there already is a mix on the question last about innovations. We are continuing to innovate. We are continuing to look at more resources, particularly the resources that we are training. We believe that all of these decisions will have long-term benefit for innovation and health care services here in Manitoba.

3568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 2001 Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, clearly in Manitoba there is growing dissatisfaction with the Doer government's health care system. Yet the Premier refuses to be open to new ideas that would lead to improvements. Change is needed. The status quo is just not acceptable. Will the Premier commit today to looking at public-private successes in other countries? Will he open up the debate so Manitobans, all Manitobans can have input on what they think their health care system should look like? Because the health care system belongs to all Manitobans, not just him. Mr.

Doer: There are a number of bills before the House, including a bill that the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) worked considerably long hours on in co-operation with the front-line health care providers and the various boards of directors. It implements a number of recommendations that flow from the Thomas report, where we have a quasi-regional health care system without the benefits of regional co-ordination for patient care.

The Minister of Health has brought in a number of innovations, but he has done so in co operation with the faith-based institutions and the other health care facilities to ensure that we can have greater innovation, greater co operation, patient care that starts in the community. That is the bill before the Legislature right now. It flows, as I say, from the inadequacies of health care that were identified in Justice Sinclair's report and articulated in the Thomas report.

There is much work ahead of us, and we will continue to work for patient care every day we are in office. * (13:50) Antigang Strategy Government Commitment Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice on another raised, but not met, expectation.

I am sure the tranquility of a beautiful Manitoba morning was broken this morning at the home of the Minister of Justice when he got out of bed and saw today's headline in the Free Press that the Hells Angels were coming through town, because he sped to his office and he put out another press release that he has finally done what he committed to do 14 months ago, with his announcement that he made today. I want to ask this Minister of Justice: Is the only way we get action out of this Government on justice issues if the Hells Angels are driving through our capital city? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the question is just a silly one. The issue, as we announced to this House earlier this week-today we announced an initiative to deal with street gangs, not biker gangs. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this Attorney General: Does he think it is silly when, 14 months ago, on the 16th of May of the year 2000, he promised the people of Manitoba initiatives that he is only delivering today, 14 months later? Is it siily to expect action out of a minister of the Crown? Mr.

Mackintosh: I know this is a question that was raised by members opposite before. It was our hope and expectation that the part of what was announced today would be available in the fall. As a result of illness in part of the department and as well, Mr. Speaker, some extensive consultations, in fact, 40 organizations and individuals were asked for their input into the development of our announcement today, which is Project Gang Proof. It is a three-part announcement.

Fi rst of all, there is a Web site available for parents, youth and communities to help identify gang activity, gang behaviour and provide courses of action that can help reduce the level of street gang activity in Manitoba. As well, we coupled that with the announcement today that, as of today, there is in place for all Manitobans a resource help line to deal with street gangs. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this minister how Manitobans can have any faith in their justice initiatives. They are losing faith in their health care initiatives. How can they have

July 5, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3569 any faith when this minister announces 14 months ago, in May of last year, that his big initiative would be in place in the fall ofthe year 2000? Where is the competency of this minister? Why will he not accept responsibility for his lack of action? Mr. Mackintosh: I thank the member for the question because it allows me to put in context what the initiative was today. He characterized it as some big initiative.

We made it very clear that the initiative announced today is arguably a small but nonetheless important part of what is a comprehensive strategy, and last May we announced our road map for a strategy- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Mackintosh: Perhaps the member might want to reference back to the announcement of May, which included as part of our compre hensive approach the creation of a Criminal Organization Unit in the Department of Justice, including five prosecutors and support staff on top of that; five prosecutors designated to deal with organized crime, including biker gangs: the creation of an RCMP gang unit which is up and running; the creation of a program by the Winnipeg Police Service, which we are helping to fund, will take action in schools.

These are parts of the initiative that was announced in May, and there is more to come. Eaton's Building Heritage Status Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Yesterday, the Minister of Heritage indicated that one way of showing respect for heritage buildings was to knock them down. This is the same minister that said, and I quote from Hansard on June 21: I have not received a report of any kind. That was June 21. We have since learned that he received a recommendation from the Heritage Council on the 9th or 1Oth of June. I would like to ask this minister what his response was yesterday to Mr.

Bill Neville, who resigned as chair of the Heritage Council as a result of this minister's inability to stand up for the Heritage Council and instead who chose to deliberately mislead this House and to follow the Premier's (Mr. Doer) direction- * (13: 55) Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask the honourable Member for Fort Whyte to withdraw the words "deliberately mislead." Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would kindly ask the honourable Member for Fort Whyte to withdraw the words "deliberately mislead." Mr. Loewen: I unconditionally withdraw those remarks. Mr.

Speaker: Unconditionally withdraw the remarks? I accept that from the honourable member. The question has been put. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Regrettably, the chair of the board found it in his wisdom to step aside with regard to being the chair. He wanted to be a public citizen, as was quoted, and he wanted to be able to participate in the debate. He felt the honourable thing would be to step aside and to be able to participate in the debate. Certainly Mr.

Neville is well respected in the community, and he will certainly be missed with all his advice and his counsel with regard to a lot of heritage issues, not just one narrow issue but a lot of issues that he has contributed to in the last couple ofyears. Public Consultations Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would like to ask the Deputy Premier why she is not utilizing her knowledge of the historic signi ficance of the Eaton's building to stand up and fight for public consultations on the options for re-adaptive re-use of an historic building as it was recommended by Plan Winnipeg. Has the Premier muzzled her, too?

Hon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for that question, and I assume that a compliment was

3570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 2001 meant by his reference to my historical knowledge. You know, one of the things about historical knowledge is that it is open and accessible to all, and I claim no special knowl edge other than any member of this House and the information the member provided to all of them. History is a very democratic process. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure we all want to hear the question. Mr.

Loewen: I would ask the Minister of Heritage why his NDP government chose to ignore the pleas of Bill Neville, who pleaded with his Government to prove through public consultations that the Eaton's site is the best site for a new arena. Why can we not have an Eaton's site and a new arena? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I am really pleased to see the Opposition and the Member for Fort Whyte are now supporting the True North Project, because for months now they have been speaking out of both sides of their mouths, saying, yes, they are, and, no, they are not.

The business community is counting on us to proceed with that. Now, with regard to Mr. Neville, once again just want to reiterate he is a very highly respected individual in the community. We respect Mr. Neville. Mr. Neville was looking at one narrow component with regard to the Eaton's building and its heritage, and when I took a look at- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lemieux: I just want to say in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Neville is certainly- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:00) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's 4 17: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. This minister should not be taking shots at a person who is not here, like Mr. Bill Neville, saying that he has a very narrow view. That is unspeakable for this minister. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the point of order was merely an interruption, an unfortunate inter ruption. The member was concluding his remarks. I believe the remarks were that he was just concluding.

Further, the minister spoke with the highest regard about Mr. Bill Neville. Mr. Speaker: Order. Prior to ruling on the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would just like to caution all honourable members that the phrase "speaking out of both sides of your mouth" has been ruled at times as unparliamentary. I would ask all honourable members to kindly use a different phrase. On the point of order raised- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is not a point of order.

It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister. to conclude his comments. Mr. Lemieux: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. To conclude my remarks, I just want to say that I have the highest regard for Mr. Neville, and I continue to welcome Professor Neville's views on new directions on heritage and would encourage greater public support for the reuse and retention of heritage properties in the future. I know that- Mr. Speaker: Order.

July 5, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 357 1 Economic Crisis Rural Manitoba Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Just last week the Minister of Agriculture returned from a meeting of the ministers in the Yukon Territory with the federal counterpart. She is one of the signatories to "A Vision for Agriculture." Under the

section entitled "Renewal," farmers are going to be offered choices, including, and I quote: Enhancing the capacity to earn off-farm income or choosing non-farm options. Could the Minister of Agriculture explain to this House and this Legislature and to the farmers of Manitoba what would possess her to provide as a renewal option the choice to get out of farming totally? What farmers would make that choice? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I would, first of all, like to clarify for the member, indeed there was no agreement signed.

It is a framework that has been developed to work on, to look at what the future opportunities are in agriculture. The member has expressed concern that one of the points in the document talks about earning off-farm income and the fact that there is also the option of people to leave farming. Well, the member should get into the real world. Farmers today, many farmers today are earning off-farm income to supplement their farm income. Many farmers today are making the choice as to whether or not they should stay in the business of farming. This is nothing new.

It has been happening for decades, and it will continue to happen. Mr. Speaker, what we are saying is we want to work with farmers and work on opportunities in rural communities so that people can indeed stay in farming. We are looking at prospects for transition to other generations. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the minister: Since when is the vision of any government for renewal to enhance the capacity to ensure that farmers in this province could make enough money outside of the farm to ensure that their families could actually go to school, that their families could actually enjoy health care and food on the table? What kind of a vision is that from a Minister of Agriculture for renewal and enhancement of the agricultural community? Ms. Wowchuk: I would ask the member to look at the real world. In fact, he himself knows that in his family, farmers have off-farm income.

That happens in our family. We were able to stay in farming by having off-farm income. It is a reality of this world. I have to tell the member that this vision is supported by farm groups, by commodity groups, by farm organizations. So I would ask him to listen to his farmers and listen to what people are saying, that they do want to stay in agriculture. They want to build on the opportunities and the reputation of Canada of producing high-quality food and maintain a share of the marketplace, but not all of them want to expand their farm.

Some of them want to stay on small farms and supplement their farm income with off-farm jobs, as they do today. Agriculture Resolution Prime Minister Meeting Request Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I want to ask the minister then whether she has had time to ask the Premier whether he could table the letter requesting a meeting with the Prime Minister. Remember, the Premier said in this House that he would lead a delegation of farmers, business leaders and agricultural people to meet with the Prime Minister anywhere, any time, any place that he chose.

Could the Premier table the letter or could the minister table the letter for the Premier indicating that that request had in fact been made? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have the letter. I will make sure it is tabled. If the minister does not have it here, we will make sure it is tabled in the next few minutes. The member has asked the question before. I said, if the Prime Minister will agree to meet, we will bring a delegation down to meet with him.

3572 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 2001 He tends not to meet when he is not prepared to change his mind. We have had success changing his mind in the 1999-2000 year. We have had no success beyond the $500-million announcement federally in a very fair, undistributed way, in our view, in the year 2001-2002.

We recognize that some of the changes we have made, crop insurance and some of the interim financing measures have been positive, but we still agree with members opposite that the grain and oilseed sector is suffering and that the subsidies from the United States are not being reduced, they are being enhanced. That has put our grain and oilseed producers in a very serious situation. We will table the letter, the third letter to the Prime Minister, on this matter shortly. * (14:10) Eaton's Building Heritage Status Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism. The report of the Manitoba Heritage Council and an evaluation by architect Terry Fuglem show clearly that the Eaton's building should have been designated a heritage buildin g. The Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism was appointed to defend, protect and improve Manitoba's heritage. My question to the Minister of Heritage, the minister who should be protecting our heritage: Why is the minister acting as the chief of the wrecking crew to demolish the Eaton's building? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. An Honourable Member: Get control of your junkyard dogs. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. An Honourable Member: What arrogance. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Again this Premier yells across this House in ways that are just unbecoming of a Premier. For him to refer to us as "junkyard dogs," he should be looking at his own rows. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, clearly the Premier was responding to heckling, I would daresay some gleeful heckling from members opposite throughout the entire Question Period, heckling which has prevented the honourable minister from responding to important questions of public policy. The response was characterizing, in a tongue-in-cheek way, the Opposition today in this House, unfortunately heckling that was occurring during the questioning of a most serious matter of health policy earlier this afternoon. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River East, on the same point of order. Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): We saw very clearly when the Premier was answering questions on health care that he did not have any answers for the promises that he made and the promises that he broke. That was why he sat down. It is unbecoming and unlike any- Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I will take the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. * * * Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister of Cu lture, Heritage and Tourism): I thank the Member for River Heights for the question. As the phoenix rises from its ashes, the True North Centre shall rise from the former Eaton's

July 5, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A 3573 building, breathing new life and energy into the city of Winnipeg and the province ofManitoba. Not like the Opposition wanting to knock everything down, every effort that is put forward, this Government will make sure Winnipeg wil l be thriving long into the future. Sustainable Development Strategy COSDI Report Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary to the Minister of Conservation: When is the minister going to implement his sustainable development strategy, the COSDI report, and appoint the sustainable development auditor to keep an eye on the wrecking crew led by his Minister of Heritage? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I believe the member has asked a simil ar question before with respect to the True North arena complex.

I can only indicate to him this afternoon, I think as has been pointed out to him earlier as well, that the True North arena complex is the type of development that does not fall under The Environment Act. Therefore, the provincial assessment is not required. I will conclude my response this way. The fact that the project is receiving federal funding automatically triggers the federal environmental assessment process to come into place.

Be cause we have harmonization agreements with the federal government, our responsibility will be to respond to the federal process by providing comments with respect to the project. Eaton's Building Heritage Status Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary to the Minister of Heritage: I ask the minister whether he is intent on destroying the Eaton's building because it has been described as a physical testament to great entre preneurial, technological and social inven tiveness, qualities which he does not seem to care for. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, all the rantings and ravings of the member from River Heights are not going to change the minds of the people of Manitoba, who understand that the Minister of Heritage has to weigh a lot of issues with regard to a lot of recommendations and proposals. That is what I have done. It is a balance. It is very difficult sometimes. I am certainly prepared to do that. That is the challenge sometimes that we all face. Just to conclude, we as a government will take a look at Princess Street, putting $30 million into the downtown, the Bi g 4 building, the Ashdown building.

There are 147 sites in Manitoba, either through the federal govern ment, the provincial government and municipal governments, that have been designated. Mr. Speaker, we are doing our work with regard to heritage and we will continue to do so into the future. * * * Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Pursuant to the question from the member from Emerson, I would li ke to table three copies of the letter to the Prime Minister. Manitoba Retired Teachers' Association Proposed Governance Plan Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, in June of 1999, before the last election, the Fi rst Minister promised the Retired Teachers' Association that if elected his Government would accept and implement the new govern ance plan proposed by the TRAF board and the Manitoba Teachers' Society. I would like to ask the minister: Given that less than two years ago his party supported the new governance model proposal, why is this plan not implemented by now? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, in the last 18 to 20 months, this Government has made more progress on pension issues than any preceding government indeed with regard to teachers. We have moved on maternity leave provisions that members opposite did not do in 11 years in office. We have a bill before the

3574 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 2001 House this afternoon, I believe, or this evening, Bill 18, to further enhance pension opportunities for teachers in this province. We will continue to work with teachers and retired teachers to build a better province, as we work with all interested parties in this province. * (1 4:20) Mrs. Smith: Can the minister simply answer the question? Would he inform this House as to when he plans to live up to that promise of June 1999 and implement the new governance proposal? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, we are working towards a solution in this matter right as we speak.

I have been working for a number of months with teachers, with retired teachers, who. quite frankly, over the last 11 years have despaired of the relationship with government. We will continue to do so. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Order. Prior to members' statements, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us Messrs. Garth and Nolan Paulley who are the guests of the honourable Member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski). On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you here today.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Dave Pomarenski Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to rise and recognize Dave Pomarenski, a teacher at Kildonan East Collegiate who is one of the 21 teachers awarded the Certificate of Teaching Excellence from the University of Manitoba at a reception held at the University Centre. This event is annually hosted by the University of Manitoba Students' Union and University Teaching Services to give students the opportunity to say thanks, to show appreci ation to their favourite teachers.

Dave Pomarenski was chosen for the Teaching Excellence award by Marla Morawski, his former Grade 11 and Grade 12 chemistry student at River East Collegiate, who is now a graduate from the I. H. Asper School of Business. Marla Morawski selected Dave Pomarenski because she remembered him for being a teacher who cared about the student as well as the subject and was always there to guide students in the right direction. As a teacher, he was approachable, had a great rapport with students, had a sense of humour and was ready to go the extra mile.

As a result, students felt comfortable going to him for assistance during and after class time. It was his sensitivity to the needs of students and his people skills that made him a great teacher. Dave Pomarenski also taught students to think for themselves and to solve problems on their own. Students found these challenges rewarding. Dave Pomarenski has taught school for a total of 29 years, 4 years at John Henderson Junior High , 21 years at River East Collegiate and 4 years at Ki ldonan East Collegiate. He and his wife, Pat, have three children.

Mandy is attending grad school at the University of Manitoba, Kurt has graduated from education, become a teacher, and Mark has completed Grade 11 at Garden City Collegiate. Congratulations to my former colleague from River East Collegiate for his many years of outstanding work in the classroom. You will be remembered for your good work. Ms. Dara McLean and Mr. Rick Scott Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, today I rise to recognize two out standing people in the constituency of Turtle Mountain. The first person I would like to congratulate is Dara McLean.

She was recently announced as the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association Female Athlete of the Year. Dara was an all-star last November in the high

July 5, 200I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3575 school associ ation Provincial A Champi onship. She has also made the Manitoba Canada Games team that will compete in London, Ontario, and this summer is a member of Big West, a club team based out of Vi rden. A highlight of her career was recently she has announced that she has accepted a scholarship to compete in the NCAA Division I Volleyball Group with the Middle Tennessee State Blue Raiders. She is id entified as a graduating six-foot-two power hitter for the Glenboro Panthers Varsity Girls team.

All the people of southwest Manitoba and Turtle Mountain are very proud of her. The second person I would like to acknowledge is the coach of that team, Mr. Rick Scott, who recently was announced as the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Associ ation Coach of the Year. He spoke very warmly of his years with Dara, and Rick has spent many years in the community promoting and developin g young athletes in Turtle Mountain and in Manitoba. On behalf of my colleagues, and I hope all members of the Chamber, we offer them both congratulations and conti nued success. Mother Goose Nursery-25th Anniversary Ms. Nancy Allan (St.

Vital): In the mid -I970s there was a dream to create a children's day care inside a home where children could grow and learn, be nurtured and loved. That idea became a goal for a hardworking mother of three, Bernice Owens. Bernice's goal was accomplished in January I9 76 when Mother Goose day care was in corporated. Since that day hundreds of happy children have grown up and passed through the doors of Mother Goose. Recently, I was honoured to attend Mother Goose's 25th anniversary. Marilyn Bush, the di rector, did a wonderful job of making this 25th anniversary a special celebration.

She paid recognition to the valuable staff, who are the heart and soul of Mother Goose. Tracy Stark began her I 0-year career at Mother Goose after graduating from Red River and is in valuable to the child care team. Rose Sherwood has an in credible 20 years of working at Mother Goose. The children called Rose the boss, and they let her think she is. She has many roles and responsibilities and accomplishes them all with in tegrity.

Bernice Owens, the founder of Mother Goose, who is still in volved as the day care's landlord, was presented with a plaque recognizing her contribution to early childhood education in the community. The afternoon reunion was attended by former children and parents who had the good fortune to attend Mother Goose. They hugged old friends, looked at photos over the years, played games, shared food and refreshments, and celebrated the good memories from thei r associ ation with a very unique place that provided support to thei r families.

Congratulations to the board of di rectors and a very dedicated di rector, Marilyn Bush, who organized a fabulous celebration in honour of early chi ldhood education and Mother Goose's 25th anniversary. Eaton's Building Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I am going to read several passages from a remarkable report by Terri Fuglem, assistant professor of architecture at the University of Manitoba, on the Eaton building: The T. Eaton building on Portage Avenue, designed by Canadian architect John Woodman, set the pace for Canadian architectural in no vation.

The Eaton building was an extremely progressive building, not only for Canada, but in terms of the whole world. The Eaton building was designed and built in such a way as to provide the utmost in structural in tegrity, while at the same time affording flexibility. This report talks about the technical splendours in the Eaton's building. This report describes the Eaton building, which has defined and dignified Portage A venue for 96 years. This report in dicates that, contrary to popular belief, the building is in excellent condition.

Canadians, in cluding Manitobans, says the report, have a tendency to undervalue their own worth and their own history. The Eaton building is a physical testament to the still great entrepreneurial, technological

3576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 2001 and social inventiveness of our people. Once the Eaton building is tom down, it can never be retrieved or rebuilt. Manitobans will have lost an important monument, not only of value to western Canada but to all of Canada. It is a real question today, as I posed it, whether the NDP so despise technological, entrepreneurial and social inventiveness that they want to destroy the very symbol of this social, technological and entrepreneurial inven tiveness that we have in Manitoba, the Eaton's building. Bishop Grandin Greenway Ms.

Linda Asper (Riel): Work on the Bishop Grandin Greenway project is well underway. This spring I joined 42 volunteers who partici pated in a cleanup, collecting 140 bags of garbage and a considerable amount of larger material. This summer is an exciting time for residents involved in the project.

The Eco Action 2000 grant of $24,800 has set in to motion a project team under the direction of Murray Gibson to begin the phase of tree planting; the establishment of a no-mow zone where existing vegetation can be encouraged to naturalize, particularly in those areas surrounding the river and ponds; the planting of a demo wild flower garden, supervised by Bud Ewacha; and work on a wood chip trail that would encourage healthy community activity.

An Urban Green Team has also been hired with four students ready to work on the project in co-operation with Teen Stop Jeunesse. * (14 :30) As with any major community initiative, the project's steering committee has been involved in providing the neighbourhood with ample information and also consulting with residents about the no-mow zone and work plans. A newsletter is being prepared to help communicate changes with residents, particu larly those on St. Michael Road.

Other ideas for the project include a butterfly garden, a skate board park, and planting of upland native shrubs and river bottom forest species. The Bishop Grandin Greenway is a stretch of green space approximately five kilometres in length contained within the Manitoba Hydro right of way stretching from the Seine River to the Red River. Congratulations to all those involved in the project. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, we will deal with bills for a while.

Would you please call the following bills: 300, by leave-1 will ask for leave-18, 11, 33. 34, 35, 36 and 37. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Agricultural Crisis Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, just a short question. Did you call for grievances? Mr. Speaker: Three times. Mr. Jack Penner: I am sorry, Sir. I missed it. I wonder if there would be leave to revert to grievances. Mr. Speaker: Is there a will of the House to revert to grievances? Is there? [Agreed} The honourable Member for Emerson, on a grievance. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, I stand today and grieve for the agricultural community.

We have seen this Government take the Standing Committee on Agriculture, an all-party commit tee, on tour and lead the agricultural community to believe that there was sincerity in trying to get some additional funding for the agricultural community. There was a commitment made by the Premier (Mr. Doer) that he would sincerely approach the Prime Minister. After the many hearings that were held across this province, there was a sincere commitment made by the Premier of this province that he would lead a delegation to any place anytime, anywhere in this province to meet with the Prime Minister. -

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 35 77 Yet, when I read the letter that the Premier sent to the Prime Minister, it says this: The committee believes it is essential that there be an opportunity to discuss the report with you, along with both short-term and long-term solutions to the crisis facing agricultural producers and rural communities. I understand that you are sched uled to be in Winnipeg on May 31, 200 I. If your

schedule permits, I would suggest that we plan to meet at that time, although, he says, the western premiers will be holding their annual conference in Moose Jaw that day, and I can make arrangements to return to Winnipeg for a meeting with you. I think that clearly indicates to the Prime Minister that it would be inconvenient for the Premier (Mr. Doer) to meet at that time. Quite frankly, Mr.

Speaker, I think it would have been nothing short of courteous to the farm community, to municipal leaders, to chambers of commerce and whole farm families that appeared before committee to give them the courtesy of a direct request to the Prime Minister at a future date when it would suit the Prime Mini ster and when it would suit the Premier. Yet we have not seen that in this letter, nor have we seen any mention made by the Premier to try and attempt such a meeting.

I want to digress just briefly because I think this is where the difference is between our party and our policies in agriculture and rural development compared to what this Doer NDP government's policies are.

I think they were this: It was our commitment to the rural communities that we would put a department of rural development in place that would be targeted specifi cally for development of initiatives in rural Manitoba that would provide jobs to those members of communities that derive a living from the fruits of the agricultural community's efforts; in other words, the retail sector, the manufacturing sector, the service sector and all those that provide services to the agricultural side of the provincial economy.

Yet the first initiative that Premier Doer took was to disband the Department of Rural Development, annihilate it, clearly indicating to the people of Manitoba that they had no interest in continuing the development that had been worked at so long and so hard by the Fi lmon Conservative administration. It was clearly that difference that is noticeable now in rural Manitoba, when we see business after business after business closing, and many of our small communities. I have one community, that, as I have indicated has seen 13 businesses close in one community alone. How many people employed in those businesses?

We have no idea. We know that it is forcing school closures in many communities in rural Manitoba. It is forcing post office closures in many communities in rural Manitoba, and many others. I think it is imperative that this minister give a better explanation of what her actions were, and what her directions were and what her requests were of the federal minister and the other ministers of agriculture in this country of Canada, at their meeting.

I think it is absolutely astounding that a minister, in a renewal commit ment to the farmers of this province, would agree to a renewal commitment that would say, and I quote: enhancing the capacity to earn enough off-farm income to support your farms. You would have thought that this minister would have argued for policies and directions and better trade deals to ensure that the agriculture community in this province could grow. Yet she does just exactly the opposite. I find it absolutely deplorable that our Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) would agree to signing a visionary outline of what is to come, and that is choosing non-farm options for farmers. In other words, putting in place programs that will see the migration, to a much greater degree, of farm families off the farm. Can you imagine a Minister of Agriculture who is supposed to be the stalwart for the community, who is supposed to be the pillar of food production in this province, saying to farmers we have given up? This Doer administration has given up on them, and we will now ask the federal government to put in place programming to get you off the farm.

She was the one, and our Premier Doer was the one, that said we will look after the family farm. What a way to look after the family farm. * (14: 40) I saw a little girl appear before the standing committee in Brandon and make a compas sionate plea to the all-party committee, a plea

3578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 that said we need help. We need this Govern ment's help to ensure that my family and I can remain on our farm, that we may attend our rural school, yet that 12 -year-old girl's pleas were totally ignored. I think we need to reflect for a minute on what was said by a young 18 -year-old farmer on the steps of this Legislature. It was widely quoted, and published in many of the farm newspapers, when he so eloquently enunciated what farming was all about. It was not just going out on a tractor and tilling the soil.

It was not just going home at night and sitting down for supper with mom and dad. It was not ju st congregating at the local community centre and playing a game of hockey or curling at the local community rink. It was not ju st that at all. It was an emotional experience. It was something that was born into him, that he was a true farmer, that he wanted to be a farmer. Yet he said: I need one thing. He said: I need an assurance from my governments in this province and in this country that will assure me at least a competitive equality in the world market.

He said: How can I be enco uraged to make an investment in the food industry if I already know I am going to get only half of what my American friends get for their commodities that they raise? How can I encourage a banker to loan the 18 -year-old farmer money to invest in his family farm's operation when he knows the day he steps onto this farm his income will be virtually exactly half of what his Americ an counterpart's income will be when they both come out of university? What a dramatic speech that was.

What a dramatic demonstration of the difficulties our young people are having today in maintaining a farm operation. That is why we saw last year alone better than 14 percent of our farm labour pool disappear out of Manitoba. One year of NDP socialis t administration sees the elimina tion of 14 percent of the farm labour pool. It is incredible. In two years more than 10 percent of our farmers have disappeared. Quite frankly, Mr.

Speaker, they are the young entre preneurs, the ones with the knowledge, the ones with the university education that are giving up and leaving because they cannot see enough income off that farm to be able to support and raise a family. How sad that day is. That, Sir, is why I am grieving today, because many of our farmers today are grieving quietly in their homes. I want to mention ju st one other issue.

That is the floods that we have seen over the last couple of years in Manitoba, first in western Manitoba, now this year in central Manitoba, in the Neepawa area, large rains and huge floods in eastern Manitoba, large rains last fall and again this spring and large floods, and yet what do we get from this Government? We do not even get a commitment that there will be a OF A program.

How can those young farmers, when they have to face the elements of the weather, and they are willing to do that, when they have to face the fact that they will have to sell for half the price of what the Americans are getting for their products and try and be competitive, and then when they are flooded out be told, sorry, we have not made up our minds yet, by this Government? What a dramatic experience when you see grown men and women cry, because they know their whole liveli hood and their whole life is disappearing before them.

They are going to have to tell their young men and their young women growing up on their farms that, no, there is no future for you, because we have elected an NDP government, a government that is headed by a Premier (Mr. Doer) that is fast at the lip and frozen at the hip and does not know what action means. That is why, Sir, those young farmers are going to be told they have no future.

That is why the minister is proposing a program to get them of f the farm, a program to see whether there are not enough jobs to get them jobs of f the farm, and allow them some income that they can at least transit out of the farm. I think it is high time we in this House grieve for all the young people who would have liked to have been food producers for our nation's interest, when they, in fact, today are dying.

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3579 Mr. Speaker: We will revert to Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DA Y (Continued) CONCURRENCE AND THIRD READINGS Bill 300- The Jewish Foundation of Manitoba Incorporation Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for concurrence and third reading ofBill 300? Is there leave? [Agreed] Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr.

Smith), that Bill 300, The Jewish Foundation of Mani toba Incorporation Amendment Act, as reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amend ments, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Mr. Mackintosh: Would you see if there is leave, as well, to deal with the payment of fees motion regarding Bill 300? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to deal with the payment of fees motion? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr.

Smith), that the fees paid with respect to Bill 300, The Jewish Foundation of Manitoba Incorporation Amendment Act, be ref unded less the cost of printing. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Attorney General, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, that the fees paid with respect to Bill 300, The Jewish Foundation of Manitoba Incorporation Amendment Act, that the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba be refunded less the cost of printing. [interjection] Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr.

Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. * (1 4:50 ) REPORT STAGE-AMENDMENT Bi11 18- The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: An amendment to Bill 18 , The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act. Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I move, seconded by the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner), THAT Bill 18 be amended by renumbering

section 9 as subsection 9(2) and by adding the following as subsection 9(1 ): 9(1) The following is added after subsection 49(6): Transfer to pension adjustment account 49(6.1) If at any time the actuary on the basis of his or her evaluation of account A and the pension adju stment account reports a surplus in account A and determines that payment in any year of the total pension adju stments provided for under

section 10 would result in an unfunded liabili ty, the board may transfer all or any portion of the surplus to the pension adjustment account. Mr. Speaker: I would like to advise the House that the amendment is out of order according to rule 62.( 1) because it imposes a charge on the public revenue without being recommended by a message of the Lieu tenant-Governor.

It is also out of order due to Beauchesne's citation 698.(7) which states: "An amendment is out of order if it imposes a charge upon the Public Treasury, if it extends the objects and purposes, or relaxes the conditions and qual ifications expressed in the Royal Recommendation." I am advised that the same amendment had been ruled out of order in committee for simi lar reasons. Voice Vote Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, because this was one of

3580 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 the NDP broken promises, we challenge your ruling. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in support of the ruling, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, plea se say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, on division. Mr. Speaker: On division. * * * Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I understand there have been some consultations.

Is there leave of the House to consider an amendment about the effective date of an amendment proposed by the honourable Minis ter of Education? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable Minis ter of Education, Training and Youth to move the amendment? [Agreed] Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wowchuk), THAT Bill 18 be amended: (

a) in subsection (15 )(1) , by striking out "section 9" and substituting "sections 9 and 13 "; and (

b) by adding the following after subsection 15 (2): Transitional and coming into force:

section 13 (1 5)

(3) Section 13 is retroactive and is deemed to have come into force on June 1, 2001 . A teacher or former teacher who makes an application under

section 63 .(2) of The Teachers' Pensions Act, as enacted by

section 13 , within 90 days after this act receives royal assent is deemed to have made the application on June 1, 2001. Thank you. Motion presented. Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question is bef ore the House. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. CONCURRENCE AND THIRD READINGS Bill 18- The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 18 as amended. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Spea ker, I understand I have to ask for leave for concurrence and third reading on Bill 18 . Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable Government House Leader have leave for concurrence and third reading on Bi11 18 ? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Min ister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), that Bill 18 , The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act, as amended and reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Economic Development and sub sequently amended, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Billll -The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to deal with Bill 11 ? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to deal with Bill 11 ? [Agreed]

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3581 Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), that Bill 11 , The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act, as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion presented. *( 1 5:0 0) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I want to put a few words on the record on Bill 11 , a bill which deals with graduated licences.

I support the general principle of graduated licences and will vote for this piece of legislation, but I believe that the legislation is considerably short of what we should have had from the NDP government. This legislation is perhaps typical of the NDP in that it provides fixed times for every body. It is a one-size-fits-all approach. Every body must go slow in getting their licence rather than recognizing that individuals develop com petence and skills at different speeds.

Indeed, we can see the model that is used in training and licensing pilo ts to fly, that they are licensed based on experience, competence and the number of hours flown. One of the problems of this bill is that, indeed, it would be possible and will be possible for young people to pass through the time periods without hardly even driving a car at all.

I believe it is imp ortant in this day and age that we have some demon stration of competence, that we have some evidence that young people are learning and gaining skills and practising driving and that we should, in fact, have an approach which is modified from what is described by the NDP government in this act. I think that those young people who are able to demonstrate competence to build up a strong driving record in a shorter period of time should be able to be licensed in a shorter period of time.

I think that this philo sophy which is to be able to show perf ormance and competence is impor tant and that this should have been incorporated as part of this legislation. The second major point I would like to make is that although this bill has gone through some changes from the original conception to allow it to adapt to people in rural Manitoba, and partic ularly to young people in the farm community or new licensees in the farm community, I am skeptical in a number of areas that this bill really has been adapted sufficiently to be appropriate, as it should be, for rural people as it is for urban people.

So I give this bill support, but I give it a little reluctantly, realizing that we should have seen much more than we did see in this bill, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): It is my pleasure to rise to speak to Bill 11 which is related to the graduated drivers' licensing program for our provincial government. I want to preface my remarks and to indicate to members opposite that I will be talking strictly about the program and some of the comments that I heard and, of course, relating to members opposite why the task force has made certain recommendations with respect to graduated drivers' licensing.

I want to also say that, in prefacing my next comments, any comments I make while we may be occasionally talking about youth, that this graduated drivers' licensing program is not aimed specifically at youth or young drivers but is aimed at novice drivers of all ages. First, I want to thank the Minis ter of Trans portation (Mr. Ashton) for recognizing a need to take action. When first our Government was elected in the fall of 19 99, the first thing that the Minis ter of Transporta tion and Government Services undertook was a review of the crash statistics for the Province of Manitoba.

He looked at the number of lives that had been lost over the last decade or so and recognized that there was a significant impact upon the people of Manitoba as a result of those crashes and those fatalities. The minister also recognized that there was a significant impact upon the family members themselves, and I ref erence the fact that there was a Donna and Ken Malley who lost their 14 - year-old son. This particular family resides in the constituency of Thompson and, of course, are well known to the Minis ter of Transportation and Government Services. We also heard in

35 82 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 committee just recently and have had much contact with Sharon Stewart, whose daughter, Haley, unfortunately, was killed in a motor vehicle accident just before Christmas in 19 97. Coupled with the information that the task force has heard-and, unfortunately, all too many famili es in the province are impacted by the loss of loved ones as a result of automobile accidents that are involving novice drivers-n ow the medical system also is impacted by that, Mr.

Speaker, and, of course, the Minis ter of Trans portation and Government Services has shown significant confidence. I must say I have been very honoured and privileged to have been asked by our Minister of Transportation and Government Services to represent our Government in a task force. I was joined by the Member for St. Vital (Ms. Allan) and the Member for Brandon West (Mr. Smith), the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) and the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) who were also members and significant contributors to the task force process.

I want to thank them for their tireless efforts. the travel that they were involved with, the long hours that they spent away from their family members themselves and the many, many months, over eight months, in the work that that task force undertook in developing our graduated drivers' licensing task force report that forms the basis for this legislation that we are debating here today. I know, Mr.

Speaker, that every waking moment during those eight months that the task force worked on this project was spent researching and debating, and I can say we were quite proud of the work that the task force undertook in developing the model for this particular legislation. I think this is a significant step forward. I know members opposite have said that they are thankful that the task force took the time to travel the province, and I can say honestly that, as a part of a new government at that time and after appointment as a task force, we wanted to consult quite broadly with Manitobans.

We recognized right at the beginning that this was a non-political issue, and we wanted to go out and we wanted to talk with Manitobans, very openly and very earnestly, Mr. Speaker, about their thoughts about whether or not there was a need to have a graduated drivers' licensing task force in Manitoba. I want to also comment, and I do not think I am telling any secrets here that perhaps have not been shared with members of the public before. I remember very early when the Min ister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr.

Ashton) brought this particular issue to our caucus and raised this as an issue before our task force was struck. I remember quite clearly the comments of our Premier (Mr. Doer), and the vision he had upon hearing of these statistics, and the information the minister had brought forward. I will quote for the House, and I hope I quote accurately: If it saves lives, we are going to do it. That was a sta tement that I will always remember that our Premier took as a vision for our Government.

If we are going to do the right thing here, if it saves lives, then we are going to strike a task force, and we are going to have that task force consult broadly and widely with Manitobans, and have them bring back a report and a recommendation to the people of Manitoba and to this Legislature, and that we would debate it. I thank our Premier, too, for having that vision and that courage. We know that this, perhaps, can be, as the previous government found, in some cases, a particularly sensitive political issue.

But we thought if it was handled in a non-political fashion, and we consulted broadly with Manitobans, there would be an opportunity for Manitobans to provide us with the direction; and that we hope we would have the courage to bring forward a report that would reflect all of the issues, and we think we have done that. I also want to thank members of the Opposition, and I know the Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) has played a signif icant role in this process. Our public hearings started in the community of Portage Ia Prairie.

That particular meeting was very well attended, and I thank the Member for Portage Ia Prairie for his comments in that process and his comments

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 35 83 and his work and his advice all along the way, since the late fall of 19 99. * (15 : 10 ) I know I had talked with the Member for Portage Ia Prairie and, because I believed that this was a non-political issue, I talked openly and shared information with the Member for Portage Ia Prairie as a result of our research.

So, when we came across new and interesting information, or we heard something that was perhaps different and unique from the different communities we were travelling to as a task force, I would share that information with the Member for Portage Ia Prairie. Because I wanted him to be apprised of what the public was saying around the province, and what our research was showing as well. So I want to thank the Member for Portage Ia Prairie for his involvement in this process.

I know that members opposite had dealt with this, I believe, on two occasions during their government throughout the '90s, and for some reason, which I am not quite clear on, it was decided at that time they would not proceed. I do not know if there was not enough evidence to support, or perhaps some other reasons. But I do know that I want to thank members of the Opposition as well, and while they have added their comments to Bill 11 throughout the debate on second reading, there is a risk that you take when you sense that the public might not have their head or their heart wrapped around a particular issue.

You run risks by being leaders. But I want to thank all members of this Legislative Assembly for being leaders in having Bill 11 come forward, and for the support that the members of the Legislature, and, in partic ular, members of the Opposition, have shown towards this particular piece of legislation. So I thank you for being leaders in this process as well. Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Acting Speaker, in the Chair This process would not be complete, of course, and would not have occurred without the support of the public. The public played a significant role in this particular process and on this issue.

Without their support, progress would not likely have been possible. If it had not been for organizations such as Keystone Agricultural Producers and the president, Don Dewar, and the guidance and advice that he provided along the way throughout the hearings process-the advice that he provided to our Minis ter of Trans portation and Government Services after the report had been released added greatly to the process and the legislation that we have before us here today. I want to also thank the Coalition of Manitoba motorcycle councils and Terry Johns and Mr.

Houghton and others who were involved in the process, and the advice and guidance and many, many meetings that we had with the motorcycle councils with respect to graduated drivers' licensing and the input that they had in the process. We had, of course, in addition to the public and the community groups around the province, we also had the various Manitoba media, whether it be TV, radio, community newspapers. They all played a significant role in advising the public of the hearings process and at the same time reporting upon the public's comments at those particular meetings.

So we would like to thank the TV, radio and community newspapers throughout the province of Manitoba for the role that they played in keeping the public advised of the task force hearings and, of course, as a result of the report that came about at the end of the task force hearings. We had input from the Manitoba Trucking Association; we had input from MAST, Manitoba firefighters, Manitoba doctors. There are many, many other Manitobans that contrib uted their comments and advice with respect to this legislation and this issue on graduated licensing.

I also want to thank the many members of the department of Driver and Vehicle Licencing. I will name them because they played a very significant role. We would not have been able to undertake this work as a task force without the role that Driver and Vehicle Licencing played in this process. Starting with Registrar Marlene Zyluk; Brock MacMartin, the Dir ector of Highway Safety; Rick Ledieu, who many

358 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 members of the Chamber will recognize for the role that he played. He travelled with the task force all over the province of Manitoba to every single community that we visited and, in fact, travelled with the task force to the different Canadian provinces and was the technical expertise behind and the technical knowledge behind the task force and made the job look so simple. It was as a result of Mr. Ledieu's efforts and knowledge that the task force was able to complete its work.

We also had the assistance of Fred Mann, the Chief Driver Examiner; Rick Orlof f, the Senior Systems Analyst; Brian Gray, the Review Of ficer; Doug Scott, Driver Lic encing; Carolyn Halbert, DVL Records Manager; Bob Chapman, DVL Policy; Roland Patenaude, DVL Systems Analyst. We also met with the Winnipeg, Brandon and RCMP police forces and the municipal police forces as well at special meetings that we called to allow them the opportunity to have input into the development of our task force report.

We also met with the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation so that they would have some input and they would provide their knowledge with respect to insurance matters relating to crash statistics and other matters relating to crashes. There was a significant role that was played by IMPACT. I want to recognize very specifically one Shawn Feely, who came to our committee here on public hearings on Bill 11 and doggedly pursued the task force around the province of Manitoba and was able to listen to the comments and to provide advice and guidance along the way.

I can say that Shawn Feely played an admirable role in that process. We thank him for his efforts. We also had input from MADD and TADD, the CAA, Manitoba Safety Council . The list goes on and on. We could thank so many Manitobans and organizations in Manitoba for their role. This task force effort was an exhaustive eff ort, hopefully leaving no stone untumed in our consultation process. So it was not only the Manitobans we consulted with, we consulted with every other person we thought might conceivably have a role to play or knowledge with respect to the development of the task force report.

Those were the Manitobans that we consulted broadly and widely with. At the same time, our task force also wants to thank the governments of Manitoba that we travelled and consulted with. There were five provinces that we went with. I first want to thank and start with the Mi nister of Transportation in the Province of Ontario.

I know that the Province of Ontario at first was somewhat reluctant, not knowing that Manitoba was proceeding down the road of graduated drivers' licensing, but after we explained to them that we were interested in the development of their program and any advice or guidance they might provide, the Minis ter of Transportation in Ontario arranged for meetings. I want to thank David Ward, the Senior Policy Advisory for road safety programs in Ontari o, who gathered the staff from his department. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we had very, very long, intense meetings with those, with the Department of Transportation in Ontari o. They provided guid ance. Ontari o, of course, as most members will know, was one of the first two provinces in Canada to bring forward the graduated drivers' licensing program. Nova Scotia was another province. Ken Cogan, the Deputy Registrar of Motor Vehicle Safety in Nova Scotia, we want to thank him; Jamie Morrison, the registrar of driver and vehicle licencing in New Brunswick; Jay Carson, the registrar of DMV in Prince Edward Island.

We want to thank our Atlantic Canada provinces, our sister provinces for their advice and guidance in the development of our legislation. Our task force very much wanted to adopt and find the best practices that we possibly could and to incorporate them in our report. Last but not least, I want to recognize the former minister responsible for the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for establishing the opportu nity for us to have very extensive meetings and probably the most extensive that we have had in Canada.

As I said bef ore, this is a non-political approach and I am not going to comment on the events that have transpired in the past, but I want to thank Mark Medgyesi, and I will give the

July 5, 200 1 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 358 5 spelling of this later to Hansard, who is the supervisor of driver vehicle licencing and is part of ICBC. They established two full days of meetings for our task force and provided us with a significant review of their process. They are the most recent graduated drivers' licensing program in all of Canada. So we very much wanted to draw on their experience and knowledge, and I can say, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that as a result of our consul tations with our Canadian sister provinces, we were able to gather much more knowledge and to incorporate many more good ideas into our task force. We thank our Canadian provincial counterparts for allowing us the opportunity to sit down with them and to ask all the many questions that we had and to receive very open and straightforward information which assisted us greatly. * (15: 20) Mr. Acting Speaker, I now want to talk a bit about the process that the task force went through.

Of course, in February of 2000, the task force commenced its hearings over the course of 28 days. We had the opportunity to have 14 public meetings in 13 different communities. As I said before, we started this process with no preconceived plan, and we wanted Manitobans to be the judge on whether or not there was a need to have a graduated drivers' licensing system in Manitoba.

We had sent out media invitations, and I know members opposite have said that perhaps we did not consult broadly or widely enough, but we advertised and I can provide information that members opposite want of all the communities that we advertised in the papers, the local media. We sent letters to all of the school division superintendents in the province of Manitoba, inviting them to make their constituencies, their student bodies, their teachers aware that the task force would be coming to their area and to invite them to participate in the process.

We sent letters out to Fir st Nations councils in Manitoba invit ing them to participate in the process as well. So we made it as broadly based as we possibly could, Mr. Acting Speaker. At the end of our consultation process in the meetings we held, we had the opportunity for questions and answers and full open dialogue with the public and allowed the public to ask any question that might be on their mind.

The public, of course, was also given an opportunity to make formal verbal and written presentations which were incorporated into the research findings of our task force and, of course, formed the basis for our task force report. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Now, the community notification, of course, first went to the press, and I said there were interviews with local media and all of the people that were consulted, but we also gave the opportunity for members of the public, any member of the public to consult with our task force.

They could send e-mails, they could send faxes or letters, they called us, of course, in addition to all of the meetings that were held. So there was as wide an opportunity for consul tation as we thought we could possibly have. Now, of course, as I have indicated, there was one main question that was asked as a result of our starting the process, and we told the public there was no preconceived plan, that we were not targeting one age group, but we were looking at the effect of inexperience on novice drivers of all ages, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and we would let Manitobans be the ju dge on whether or not there would be a need for a graduated licensing system in our province. We asked, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a series of questions, main questions. Of course, there were supplementaries that would follow out of that and I will list them: Should Manitoba introduce some form of graduated drivers' licensing program? Should there be a no-alcohol-tolerance component to a Manitoba GDL program? Should there be passenger restrictions? What would be a suitable length of time for a learner's stage?

What criteria should be used for determining an eligible supervising driver? Should there be a nighttime driving curfew? If so, should there be exemptions to the curfew? What would be a suitable length of time for an intermediate stage? Those are the main questions that were asked, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but there were a

358 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 number of other questions that I am sure that members know, are quite aware of, that were asked by members of the public. We provided, hopefully, the answers the public were seeking. We have heard many comments back from Manitobans, and we have heard them perhaps raised by members of this Legislative Assembly, as their constituents would have consulted with them. We hope that the legislation itself has dealt with those comments that were made. Mr. Speaker in the Chair I know, Mr.

Speaker, that members of the public have had the opportunity to now see and read the report, but I think it is important perhaps for members of the public and perhaps for the Archives for the history of our province if I was to table copies of the Graduated Licensing Task Force Report dated June of 2000, so it might become a part of the history of the province of Manitoba, because the task force itself went to great lengths in gathering the information and putting this report together. So I would like to table copies for members of the public with respect to our work and our efforts in that regard.

There are, of course, a number of notable quotes that came about as a result of the task force hearings, and I think it is important when we put into context what we heard and how we tried to incorporate the public's comments. I want to read into the record some of the notable quotes. It starts off with one that I think members opposite will recognize, and I quote: There is one drive that you never want to have to take with your child, and that is in the funeral procession.

Another quote is: I do not know how graduated licences will work, or whether it might have helped prevent the accident that took the life of our bright, loving son. I just know that our lives have been changed irreparably and anything that might have helped prevent our loss would be a good thing. Another quote: The current Manitoba licensing system does not measure competency except by the passage of time. Another quote: People, no matter how young or old, need a learning period. You cannot learn to be a safe driver in two weeks.

Another quote: We need a made-in-Manitoba GDL program and should be leaders, not followers, in setting the standard. Another quote: Any decisions or recom mendations that you make should be evidence based and not on public opinion. The final quote: I know some people have concerns about graduated licensing as being more legislation, and Bi g Brother, but speaking as a police officer, I would rather write a traffic ticket than do a death notification. Those are some of the notable quotes that came about as a result of the public hearings.

I know it was very difficult for members of the public to come forward and share their experi ences with the task force. We thank them for their courage and their conviction in coming forward and sharing those stories, their very personal and tragic stories with the task force. Mr. Speaker, the recommendations of the task force, as I have indicated, reflect the best advice and information available to minimize fatalities and injuries occurring through motor vehicle accidents.

The task force is very aware of the competing interests of various parts of our province and the multitude of viewpoints Mani tobans shared. Manitobans want our GDL program to be evidence-based. Some of the advice was contrary to all evidence, or was unenforceable as we subsequently found out as a result of our broader consultations. Now, we are giving our driving regulators, as a result of this legislation, a potentially effec tive new influence tool that is called graduated licensing.

It is how skilful that we use the tools that are given here in and through this legislation that will determine its ultimate effectiveness. No system, no tool, no matter how well crafted will replace an active role that experienced driver parents, or other adults, will play in training our new inexperienced novice drivers. Driver educa tion is an additional training tool to that provided by our family members and other adults that will help train the novice and inexperienced drivers in our province. I listened to the comments that were made by members opposite, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the driver education program. I can say as a task force, as a result of our research, we, too, thought, like many members of this Legislative Assembly, that driver education was a key and

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 358 7 critical component of training our novice drivers and it would actually produce safer drivers as � result of that education and training. We subsequently found out, Mr. Speaker, through our broader research, and it came as quite a surprise to members of the task force that as a result of the research, we could not fincl any conclusive evidence to indicate that driver education actually contributed to a reduction in ac.ci�ents and crashes and in fatalities.

I am quite wiiim g to share all of the research material with any member of this Legislative Assembly who might want that information. It is broadly avail able on the Internet through the Traffic Injury Research Foundation. I do know that in consultation with particularly, the province of Ontario, they saicl quite clearly to us: Before you make the decision with respect to time credits and buydowns with respect to the stages of graduated licensing, you have to determine whether or not the buydown that you are going to give is as a result of some benefit that will be accrued as a result of that buydown in time.

If the criteria that you establish is a reduction in accidents or fatalities or injuries, then do not measure that. Do not use that as your criteria to buy down the program, because we cannot substantiate and we do not have the evidence to show that there is a reduction in the fatalities or accidents. So, Mr. Speaker, we were quite surprised to hear that from the Government of Ontario through their department, the Traffic Injury Research Foundation, and I have the studies here I can provide to members opposite if they want to see the information.

That is why we did not make a recommendation to give a staged buy down. I do know that there are many states in the Unit�d States of America that are, perhaps, movmg away from time credits as a result of their drivers' licensing program. * (15: 30) Now, I am not saying that there is not some merit in driver-training programs, because I think there is significant merit, that any training, any education that we can gather is of some benefit and will, hopefully, help to make us more experienced drivers.

But whether or not it reduces accidents, a significant number of researchers have undertaken that, and it is not just the traffic injury research. We are basing this on research that we have done. I do not know how else we can make a determination on this. These are trained and skilled people that involve doctors, medical researchers, traffic injury research experts from various jurisdictions around the world, who have brought this information forward. In fact, I think there was one or two studies even done in Canada that showed the same results as a result of their research, as well, on this issue.

Everyone knows that formal education is accepted like motherhood and apple pie. Most logical and reasoned people expect that individ uals involved with a formal education retain knowledge and skills acquired through that formal education. Most would think that the same logic would apply to the High School Driver Education Program and the advanced driver training.

The Dekalb study that has been referenced many, many times was undertaken in the 19 70s in the 19 80s, was again researched through th� 19 90s, and compared its findings over those three decades and was found to be the most comprehensive review to access the impact of formal driver instruction through the driver education programs. The studies have been repeated many times in the U.S., Sweden, Norway, Finland, Australia and Canada, all with similar results.

The overwhelming preponder ance of evidence fails to show that formally trained students have a lower frequency of crashes than those who do not receive such training. That is not to say that there is not some benefit accrued through that training because we think all training is useful, all education is useful, but the findings show it does not reduce crashes.

Now, as I have said, there is some evidence that at least some driver education programs can successfully teach driving skills and impart kn?�ledge, but skills and knowledge acquired in trmm�g do not necessarily produce driving behaviOur, and that is crucial, that leads to reduced crash involvement. Now, the members opposite have indicated that we need to expand the High School Driver

3588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 Education Program in this province and, Mr. Speaker, good advice. I do know that members opposite are probably aware-I did a member's statement on this yesterday-Manitoba has gone from very humble beginnings of the driver education and training program in 19 66 up to the point now where they are training, we anticipate, some 14 500 students this year. There are, I think, 17 000 high school students in the prov ince of Manitoba every year that we are moving very close to 10 0 percent. That is the goal.

The long-tenn goal is to get to that point, so that everybody would perhaps receive some form of fonnal training. Mr. Speaker, we have a number of instructors. We have First Nations communities that are involved in the program as well. We have women's abuse shelters that have had driver education programs funded by MPI through that process. We have many, many hundreds of driver instructors in the province. We are training more, and, as my member statement yesterday will stand, that infonnation is avail able for the members opposite. Now, the fees vary. In Manitoba, the students pay only $50.

In other provinces of Canada, they can pay upwards of $850 for one of those training programs through private facili ties. The range varied across Canada from $250 to $850, but we say the range is in the higher end of that scale from the provinces that we consulted with. Now, Quebec, my understanding is, with drew from the mandatory driver education and training program, of course some time ago, but Manitoba continues because we see that there is a benefit that will accrue to our novice drivers, our inexperienced drivers in Manitoba.

I know there were also comments made by members opposite, and I want to thank the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) for his comments as a part of our task force, because he recommended to us that, perhaps, we might want to consider bringing forward simulators to allow our novice, our inexperienced drivers the opportunity to drive off-road prior to having them take

part in what we would call more high risk conditions on our highways and our roads. So I thank the Member for Assiniboia for his comments in that regard as well. That, I am sure, will be investigated in the coming days and weeks ahead. Mr. Speaker, the Traffic Injury Research Foundation indicates that they would not recommend introducing driver training and education into the graduated licensing system. We accepted that advice and our report as a task force indicates that. If the objective is to produce drivers faster, then give time credits to buy down the graduated drivers licensing stage.

But if the objective is to produce safer drivers, then they recommend that the process that we have incorporated into our report is the way to go. We have accepted that advice. The objective, we think, is to reduce accidents, to prevent injuries and to provide hazard detection and collision avoidance. We think that is the objective of training, and the motivation of new drivers, of course, is crucial to that particular process. We hope that the legislation and the report that we have brought forward reflect that.

Now, the members of the Legislative Assembly have made suggestions, and I say reasoned arguments, for some further dilution of this legislation, and, in some cases, for further enhancements to this legislation and the GDL program itself. Some have openly accepted the premise for this legislation itself. I only wish that each and every member of this Legislature would have had the opportunity and the time to see and hear the famil ies that came before our task force committee hearings. Mr. Speaker, no program is perfect and addresses all of the concerns, unfortunately.

As with most things involving safety, there will be some inconvenience. In my humble view, it is measured and warranted when it comes to reducing injury and saving lives when compared to inconvenience. The difficult thing to measure for most families is who will be saved as a result of this graduated drivers' licensing program. Which member of this Legislature will be able to say this law saved my lif e or the life of a family member or a member of a family in my constituency? Which Manitoba family will be able to point to themselves or to a family member and say this program saved us? We will

July 5, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 358 9 never know. Statistically, we hope and we pray that there will be a significant reduction in the loss of lives in our province and in the number of accidents that occur. Statistically, we will measure annually the progress that we have made, but individually each of us will not know if we, ourselves, survived. The task force went to considerable lengths in consultation, not only with Manitobans but in seeking out the best practices among our Cana dian provincial partners with a GDL program.

After many, many months of researching, listening and talking to ordinary Manitobans and questioning experts, then measuring and weigh ing the evidence and comments before us, the task force made recommendations based on all of the advice and based on the best practices at the time. We knew that some of the recommen dations, if adopted, could and would likely be debated further. We wanted to remain true to our findings, knowing that our task force recom mendations, if adopted in their entirety, would, in some respects, make Manitoba a GDL leader in North America.

We also know that many of the recommendations are essential to an effective GDL program and that many are interlinked. We also know that our findings and recom mendations would become the measure against which any Manitoba GDL program and future changes would be measured. We also know with the coming summer and graduation time, which is upon us now, if history is a teacher, that there could be accidents involving novice, inexperi enced drivers. We know that there was an accident ju st recently involving the family of a member of this Legislative Assembly. I pray, Mr.

Speaker, that there will never be another fatality or a serious motor vehicle accident. Sadly, in reality, that may not happen immediately. But that does not mean that we, collectively, as a society, should stop trying to make positive changes to reach for our goal. To influence the saf e driving attitudes and behaviours is perhaps the fundamental objective of any GDL . To teach saf e driving skills, then to ingrain these behaviour skills and attitudes until they become good and saf e driving habits.

We must not lose sight of the objective to make our roads and our highways safer; for all to reduce motor vehicle crash injuries, fatalities and the subsequent human and financial cost. Let us all make sure that every evening when our families gather around the dinner table, that everyone is present and that there will not be one place setting unused due to an avoidable motor vehicle accident involving a novice, inexperienced driver. Again, Mr. Spe aker, let us all do our part to make that a reality.

I want to thank members of the task force for the significant effort that they made on behalf of the people of Manitoba, for the members of the Legislative Assembly for their support in this legislation, and for the members of the Manitoba public and all of the organizations that were involved in this process for the many, many hours that they put in, in the consultation process, and for the significant role that they made in the development of Bill 11 .

I am proud to say that we are a part of this process, and we hope that this will significantly reduce the fatalities and the injuries to our novice, inexperienced drivers in Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (15: 40) Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) for his 40-minu te presentation, and certainly compliment fellow members of his task force who, he said, every waking moment for eight months, thought about this, and I say that is dedication. I am not sure about the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen).

I think maybe he thought about some other things there, but, seriously, this started out as a good way to make legislation. You put in place a task force, and you talk to Manitobans, and you receive third-party information from those people who will be af fected by it. Then they brought forth a report on the subject, and this Graduated Driver Licence Task Force Report is quite comprehensive and does reflect a lot of work that was put into it.

So the process started out as being a good way to make legislation, and from there the process sort of unravelled a bit and I would say that I am supportive of the legislation but it has gone through a rather strange path in getting to where we are today.

3590 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 200 1 The minister's first reaction to this was to put out a press release indicating that they would be going forward by regulation to put forth the Graduated Driver Licensing Program. Then after some reaction from the public, he put out a second press release, again going forward in this legislation through the means of taking it to Cabinet, and passing regulations, and, certainly, I was critical of that. But he also watered down the program considerably in his second press release. Then, almost at the last minute, Mr.

Speaker, he announced that the motorcyclists were going to be included in this and that they would be part of the Graduated Driver Licensing Program, and I think there are lots of questions surrounding how that is going to take place. Then at committee the other night, at the eleventh hour, he brought in a tremendous number of amendments to the legislation, and this is my main criticism. Those amendments were not shared with the Opposition.

Those amendments were not shared with the third parties involved, and it does leave, not only members of the Legislature but third-party groups who were interested in this legislation, who have been following this legislation, no opportunity to have the time to look at these amendments and to digest them and to understand them. So, as I say, this started as a model in terms of making legislation, but it unravelled through the process, and I think that is unfortunate. I do again commend the Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr.

Faurschou) who has worked very tirelessly on this subject, as well as the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). I had the opportunity to work with the Member for Transcona on issues to do with the Department of Labour an

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-58b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 58b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	97947b9b95b6accfec2de6748b54bf6f9e00c0d0

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