Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 126 (30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-126

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEG ISLATIVE AS SEJVIBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday , June 12, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr . Deputy Speaker . 3881 MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: Pre senting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Prese nting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . The Honourable Minister of Tourism . TABLING OF RE PORTS HON . RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism , Recr eation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield) : Mr . Speaker, I would like to table an additional report from the Legislative Library and Provincial Archives . There's copies for all members of the House .

There has be en a report tabled but this is more complete and more detailed . MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister in charge of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpora tion . HON . BILLIE URU SKI (Minister for Manitoba Public Insurance Co rporation) (St. George) : Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table an order to the House , No . 20 , on the motion of the Honourable Member from Minnedosa. I have seven copies of the order . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Oral Questions; Orders of the Day . The Honourable Acting House Leader . ORDERS OF THE DAY HON .

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): I wonder if you would mind calling Bill No . 57. MR . DEPUT Y SPEAKER : Bill No. 57, proposed ... Stand? MR . PAULLEY: Well I note , Mr . Speaker , it stands in the name of the Ho nourable Member for Riel . If any other member wishes to speak on the bill, I'm sure that it would be agreeable that it go back to the name of the Minister . MR . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Mor ris) : I know it would be appreciated by the Acting House Leader if somebody would speak . I know what his problem is .

But you know the bill was just tabled yesterday and we have not had an opportunity to look at it and I would ask that this matter stand, as well as Bill 61. If the Minister is having difficulty waiting for the Attorney-General, we'll be prepared to accommodate him by waiting for a few moments until he arrives . MR . DEPUT Y SPEAKER : The Honourable House Leader . MR . PA UL LEY: Mr . Speaker, I appreciate very much the position taken by the Honourable House Leader of the Opposition . And with your indulgence, if you don't mind, we would wait . I would call 61 if my honourable friend is ready . MR. JO RGENSON: No.

I've already stated I would like that matter to stand as well . But the Member for Sturgeon Cree k has just advised me that he is prepared to go on adjourned debates on public bills standing in his name , Bill No . 45

an Act to amend the Convention Centre Cor poration Act . If the House Leader would like to proceed with that one, perhaps we can dispose of that . MR . PAULLEY: Well I don't see any ... MR . JORG ENSON: On Page 5 of the Order Paper . MR. PAULLEY: On Page 5, Adjourned Debates on Second Readings? MR . JORG ENSON: Yes, Public Bills . MR. DEPU TY SPEAK ER: Bill No . 45 ? MR. PA U LLEY: Yes . I think that would be quite all right . I see no re asons offhand why not, Mr . Speaker . Usually prior to the end of the session we deal with private bil ls , either they're superseded by something else or done, so possibly the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek .

3882 June 12, 1975 BI LL NO. 45 - THE CO NVENTION CE NTRE CO RPO RATIO N ACT MR . DEPUTY SPEAK ER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Radisson. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Cre ek. MR. J. FRANK JOH NSTON (Sturgeon Cr eek): Thank you, Mr . Speaker . We've had an opportunity to examine this bill . --(Interjectio n)--Well , as a matter of fact we have no choice but to agree with this bill and there's only one reason why . I think the members opposite know our feelings when we start to talk about exemption of taxes on public buildings .

We had the debate over the Keystone in Winnipeg, we've had the Art Centre at Brandon and ... --(lnterjection)--Yes . We've had discuss ion on the Art Centre and two others with the same situation. And certainly it is our position on this side that public buildings shouldn't be com pletely exempt from taxes in cities, because when there is a convention on at the Co nvention Centre I can ass ure you that Winnipeg will have to have extra policemen for traffic and they will have many jobs to do even cleaning up the street s and all of the things that a city ha s to do around a building that size . Mr .

Speaker, the government is participating in 50 perc ent of the cost of the Convention Centre but they refuse to partic ipate in 50 perce nt of the taxes . Therefore, if the city does not take it off the tax roll only the City of Winnipeg is going to be shafted . So with the fact that the government has their policy on this and refusi ng to pay 50 perc ent of the taxes , we have no alternative really but to support the bill to help the Ci ty of Winnipeg out of their pre dicament. So , Mr . Speaker, we would let the bill go on this side . MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . Joh ns. MR .

SA UL CH ERNIAC K, Q .C . (St. Johns) : I listened with interest to the Member for Sturgeon Creek and wondering just what he meant by the word "shafted". Member s opposite, apparently members of his party, have had a conference, they've reviewed the bill , they've come to the conclusion that they can't help themselves but they must vote in favour of it . He didn't explain why except that if they don't vote for it then the City of Winnipeg will be shafted .

I'm not sure that pos sibly member s opposite who have yet the right to speak will take the tr ouble to explain just why it is that the city may be shafted and why it is that they are that much concerned about the city being shafted . The member says that , all right the Province of Manitoba is not prepared to pay, to share in the taxation of this Convention Centre. I have difficulty in understanding how the city is in trouble if it pays itself . And really that 's what the Member for Sturgeon Creek seems to be saying. We're talking about property taxation, that is municipal taxation.

Suppose the City of Winnipeg went thro ugh the bookkeeping of charging itself a tax and then paying itself the tax and just where is it that the problem exists? Now , Mr . Speaker , I think I know where the problem exists and I think I understand the reason, but I'm wondering whether members opposite really know. I'm just wondering whether they're not just taking this opportunity of saying, all right we'll go along with the bill but meanwhile we'll talk about a policy .

Frankly, I think that the city, which of course must provide police protection, other protection, wanted the province to particip ate in the Co nven tion Centre up to a degree and the province negotiated with the city the extent to which the province was prepared to participate in the capital cost in the construction and in the operation. That was a matter of negotiation and that negotiation was concluded on a certain bas is .

Now I presume that members opposite really know what the Member for Sturgeon Cr eek was talking about , and may yet be able to persuade me as a member of the bac kbench who wasn't really too much involved in learning what this is about , and unfortunately I was absent when it was introduced by the Member for Radisson or anybody else who may have spoken on it . I don't know, if the Member for Sturgeon Cr eek had something persuasive to say, he cer tainly failed , he didn't say it today , except for the term "shafted". That's all I really heard him say , which seemed to indicate some strong feelings that he ha s.

But since he was talking on behalf of his party, we may yet learn what it is that concerns the party and the extent to which the party feels that there is a wrong being done and why really they're voting for some thing through compuls ion. I really find it difficult to understand why the Member for La Verendrye is compelled and why the Member for Gladstone is compelled and the Member for Morri s, how is he compelled , I'm really having difficulty in understanding it but I'm sure that one of them will try to explain the reason that they're voting in favour of this . MR .

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Morri s. MR . JO RGENSO N: Mr . Speaker , it may be difficult for the Member for St . Johns to understand what the Member for Sturgeon Cre ek said when he used the word shafted, but it's

June 12, 1975 3883 BI LL 45 (MR . JO RGENSON cont'd) ...•. not very difficult for us on this side of the House to under stand why the Member for St . Johns seized upon that word and that opportunity to take up the time of the House for a few minutes . We understand the problem that the House Leader was having for a few moments - it's now been re solved since the Attorney-General is here , so now I presume the pre sence of the Attorney-General will enable the House Leader to continue with what he was going to do in the normal consideration of business of the House .

And I will not take up the time of the House any further , sir , but allow the House Leader to proceed with the business of this Chamber . MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion before the House of the Honourable Member for Radisson. QUESTION put . MR . PAULL EY: Just a minute, Mr . Speaker, I believe the Honourable Member for Emer son is going to take the adjournment. MR . STEVE DEREW IANCHUK (E mer son) : Mr . Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Point Dougla s, that debate be adjourned. MOTION prese nted and carried . MR. PAULLEY: Would you call Bill 27, Mr . Speaker .

BI LL NO . 27 - THE MUNI CIPA L ACT - SECO ND READING MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No . 27, the Honourable Attorney-General. HON . HO WARD PAWL EY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk) presented Bill No . 27,

an Act to amend the Municipal Act, for second reading. MOTION pre sented. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . MR . PAWL EY: Mr . Speaker , the amendment s before us are a series of not too signi ficant amendments. They're important to some extent to the municipalities but nothing of really an earth-shak ing type. But I would like to describe to the House the amendments bri efly. The first amendment deals with an application by a local government district for incor poration as a village, town or rural municipality .

Following the visit to local government districts of a select committee on municipal affairs, every effort has been made to assist local government district s to move to full municipal status . The elected advisory committees have been taking over more and more of the decisio n-making in the local government district s, with a re sident administrator assi sting the committees by taking a less active

part in the deci sion making than he has in the past . The proposed amendment to the Municipal Act sets out the machinery by which a local government district can move to full municipal status as a village , town or rural municipality . Another amendment deals with the repealing of a

section in the prese nt Municipal Act re-wording the existing

section to make it clear that where the population of a village or a tmvn falls below the minimum requirements for incorporation, that any alterat ion of the boundaries does not affect the incorporation . Another

section deals with a repeal and substitution within the Municipal Act dealing with the question of alteration of municipal boundaries . The existing legislation provides that where a petition is recei ved by the Minister under the conditions set out in that section, that the Minister shall lay the petition before the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council . When the new Municipal Act was passed it was felt that this

section would greatly facilitate the alteration of municipal boundaries over the rather cumbersome procedure which has existed in the old Municipal Act . Other problem s have arisen, however , in that boundaries have been adjusted not on the basis of good planning or the needs of an expanding urban community, but rather on the basis of what the two councils have been able to negotiate as an acc eptable adjustment. We thus have instances of some municipalities requesting a boundary change every year and some years twice in order to accommodate growth .

The proposed amendment would permit the Minister to refer the boundary change to the municipal board for recommendation . It is felt that the municipal bo ard would provide a pr oper forum for any municipality or per son which had a position to state in respect to a proposed boundary adjustment. The board would not make the final deci sion but would conduct a hearing and make a recommendation to the Minister who in turn would present the matter for the consideration of the Lieutenant-Governor -in Council .

3884 June 12, 1975 BILL 27 (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) . • . Another amendment deals with the subject of triennial elections. In 1970, the new Municipal Act established the principle of a three year term of office for municipal councillors . The legislation was amended at committee to provide that a council could opt out of the three year term and remain on the former two year term . Some councils opted to remain on the two year term and of these , some later wished to return to the triennial election. In 1974, the Act was amended in order to accommodate this .

Approximately 65 percent of all councils in Manitoba are on a three year term . Switching back and forth is causing confusion and a com mon term of office should be established uniform throughout the province. The proposal , therefor e, is that the Act be amended so that all municipal councils, commencing in 1977, will be on a triennial election basis . Another

section deals with amending the present Municipal Act in order to permit muni cipal councils to purchase accident and disabilit y insurance for councillors who are employed on municipal business . This amendment will reflect a practice which has been growing in some municipalities and will now make it legal for councils to purchase such insurance where at the present time there is some question as to the legality that lies behind actions by muni palities to purchase that type of insurance.

Another amendment deals with the repealing of a clause in the Act dealing with the ques tion of persons inspecting the tax roll . The present Act stipulates what documents the clerk shall produce for inspection of any person who demands to see the documents. One of these documents is the latest tax roll . There is no information on the tax roll which a person could not obtain from the assessment roll except information as to who has paid their taxes or who has not paid taxes . If a person wishes to find out whether taxes are paid on a specific property , he can obtain a tax certificate . Another

section deals with Canadian government annuity contracts for municipal secretary-treasu rers . It is proposed to sub stitute a new

section with respect to the establish ment of municipal pension plan or a scheme for all full-time employees of municipalities . In the past , the Municipal Act has only required that the councils provide pension plans for their secre tary-treasur ers . We have been, over the past - in fact, Mr .

Speaker, over the past four years , been conducting discu ssions with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities , the Manitoba Ur ban As sociation, and the Manitoba Secretary-Treasurers As socia tion in connection with this question finally resulting in 1973, are commissioning a study by a firm well-known in the muni cipal consulting busi ness, Mercer and Co mpany, as our pension consultants .

Thus , the bill before us sets out a subdivisio n dealing with the establishment of a municipal pension plan to oversee the operation of a pension plan for municipal employees as well as secre tary-treasuren This part was drafted after consultation with other provinces about municipal pension plans and with the Legislative Counsel who is a member of the Ci vil Service Pension Board and has considerable knowledge about the operation of such boards . I feel it is broad enough legisla tion to allow municipalities to establish and operate an effective pension plan for municipal employees .

The legislation itself does not set out in detail the pension plan, only as enabling legislati on, so that this can be developed by a board which will be representative of the two municipal organizations, Secretary-Treasurers' As sociati on and employees of municipalities . Another change gives to municipalities the power to purchase by lease option or by pur chase agreement certain heavy equipment such as road graders . The very dramatic rise in the cost of such equipment has made it more attractive to municipalities to lease the equip ment or to purchase it over a period of years . Another

section concerns the operation of airports by municipalities . Permits a muni cipality to buy land either within or outside the municipality for the purpose of operating an airport . This sec tion as it presently exists within the Municipal Act conflicts with another

section of the Municipal Act which provides that a municipality may acquire and hold land in another municipality only with the consent of that municipality . If the consent is withheld , the matter may be reviewed by the municipal board . Another

section proposes amendment in the Municipal Act to make it clear that a muni cipality may borro w to meet current expenses by way of bank overdra ft . Some municipal soli citors have expressed the opinion that the present provis ions of the Act does not make clear that a municipality may borrow by way of bank overdra ft . Another

section deals with provisions of the Municipal Act in connection with population s

June 12, 1975 3885 BILL 27 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) .. ... and assessment for unincorporated village distri cts . The requirements under the new Municipal Act for village status are 750 per sons and $750, OOO in assessment; but for unincorporated village districts the only requirement is a populatio n of 50 persons . It is suggested that in view of the higher population and assessment req uirements for villages that more realistic standards be established for unincorporated village district status . For example , 200 population and $200 , OOO in assessment, which is still, we think, quite minim al . Another

section amends the Municipal Act dealing with annual me etings of the electors of an unincorporated village district. The purpose of this amendment is simply to clarif y when n meeting is to be held. Another

section amends the Municipal Act dealing with subsequent connection of sewer and water services after the charges have been levied . The purpose of this amendment is to clear up ambiguity with respect to lands which have been added to a municipality after levies have been made for local improvemen ts . Several instances have arisen where municipal boun daries are extended and it is nece ssary to connect the added lands to an existing sewer or water system where local improvement charges have been established.

The proposed amendment is meant to clarif y the basis of levying local improvement charges against the added land , and will provide that the le vies will be against the lands in the same manner as those lands in a local improvem ent district at the time of the boundary change . Another amendm ent is one that was suggested by Legislative Counsel. The Hi ghway Traffic Act makes a provision in the Municipal Act apply to the City of Winnipeg . This sectio n deals with lic ensing liveries and establishing rates of fare. Legislative Counsel advises that in view of the fact that the

section in the Highway Traffic Act has to be amended to make proper reference to sect ions of the Municipal Act, that it would be opportune time for us to correct what seems to be a mistake in plac ement of an application section. Legislative Counsel there fore suggests that a new subsection be added to the provision in the Municipal Act, making that

section apply to the City of Winnipeg, and the

section in the Highway Traffic Act be repealed in its entirety. Another sect ion of the Municipal Act deals with remedies for recoveries of debt. The language used in the

section is not in keeping with the practice of the courts. For example , it refers to the issue of a summons. Legislative Counsel has redrafted the subsection to refer to the issuance of a Statement of Cla im. It is merely bringing the

section into line with the practice current in the language of the courts. Another

section deals with alte rations in the tax roll. Then the proposed amendment would provide that when land is subdivided and the lots are added to the tax roll in the current year , that the lots be revalued at the time that they are added to the roll. The Municipal Act now provides for addit ions to the tax roll where property has been omitted in error or where property has been improved . This may be done during the current year after rolls have been closed .

Where a subdivision is regi stered , the practice has been to simply apportion the assessment of the total parcel of land into as many lots as the subdivision contains in the following year - to revalue the lots in the subdivision. This practice is not equitable to the purchaser of a lot. He would be paying part of the assessment for streets , parks , et c., in the new subdivision. Nor is it equitable to the munic ipality , which is receiving taxes on the basis of unsubdivided land, which is usually at a much lower assessment.

By re-evaluating the land when the subdivision takes place and adding the additional taxes to the ro ll , the municipality will benefit in the year in which the subdivision occurs. Another

section deals with the interest rate which municipal co uncils can charge on out standing tax arrears, and raises the rate from 3/4 of 1 percent to 1 perc ent per annum. Another

section deals with the heading of a

section indicating an amendment to a

section in the Municipal Act . This reference should re quire a trea surer of a municipality to keep a separate account for all mon eys raised by a special tax for services in certain designated areas. The Municipal Act reads that a tr easurer of a municipality shall keep a separate acco unt for all moneys raised by the special tax to which the subsection applies, and expendi ture of those moneys shall be properly acc ounted therefor. Another

section deals with the commencement of the Act. Sections dealing with the new Pension Plan will come into force on a day fixed by proclamation .

3886 June 12, 1975 BILL 27 (MR. PAWLEY cont'

d) Another

section deals that the rate of interest on tax arrears is retroactive and comes into force on January 1, 1975, for accounting purposes, and all the other sections of the Act will come into force on the day that the bill receives Royal Assent. I know that there are a lot of very technical amendments there. I would like to provide my notes to the Opposition and to the Leader of the Liberal Party so that they could work from them. I could probably make a copy of these notes for that purpose. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from La Verendrye, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): On a question of privilege, I've been waiting for Bill 51 to come up for some time and the Minister of Municipal Affairs is here tonight - he's been away.

I understand that the people are in the House that are concerned with this particular bill, and I was wondering if we possibly could go ahead with it tonight. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, it's my duty as the House Leader, I can appreciate, to call the ball game as I see it. --(lnterjection)--Yes, I know, but the bill is standing in the name of an absent member. It would stand in any case. So I think we can assure our honour able friend that before the House rises that the particular bill will be considered.

The pres ence of the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs doesn't make any difference really, because he hasn't got the adjournment in any case. MR . DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: I don't know whether - it's still on the same question of privilege, but could other members speak on it then possibly, and stay adjourned in the name of the MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. PAULLEY: I prefer not, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The procedure is not one that the House can . . .

The de bate is standing, regardless of who spoke on it, it would still remain in the name of the Hon ourable Member for Radisson. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Walding): Order please. I direct the attention of honourable members to Page 38 in their Estimates book, Municipal Affairs, Resolution 85(l)(a). The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, if I could just make a few remarks - I guess there'll be more than a few remarks - in connection with the introduction of the estimates of the department. I would like to skim over major points that I think are worthy of mention since last year, approximately this time, that we met to consider the estimates of the department. First, I think it's worth noting that there are today some 350 new councillors and/ or reeves in Manitoba than there were this time last year.

In October, the last election meant quite an influx of additional councillors and reeves into service in the affairs of municipalities in the province. Secondly, I think that I should make comment upon the very favourable and active co-operation that we've enjoyed over the past year from the executives of both the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and from the Manitoba Urban Association, as well as the executive of the Manitoba Municipal Secretary-Treasurers Association.

These organizations have at all times provided strong support and advice to the department and to myself in all matters of importance involving municipal affairs in the province, and I want to certainly officially

June 12, 1975 3887 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY Cont'd) •.... record my appreciation for the very earnest support that I'v e had from the municipal organizations in the provin ce. As well, of course, I would be remiss if I did not comment also on the excellent co operation from the staff, from the senior to the junior level within the De partment of Munic ipal Affair s itsel f, during the past year. I also would like to mention that the Municipal Advisory Co mmittee has met on three occasi ons during the past year.

The Municipal Advisory Committee consists of represen ta tives of the two municipal organizations as well as the Municipal Secretary -Treasu rer 's Ass ociation, and we have dea lt with a number of different issu es, subject matter, that pertain to municipal affairs. We have, for instance, dealt with the question of property tax, the question of the Planning Act change s, and many other subjects of importance to municipal life in the province have been discussed at length by this committ ee.

I might ju st mention here that in particular note, there has been a lot of discussion dea ling with the proposals that I referred to a little earlier this ev ening de aling with a new pension plan for municipal secr etary treasurers and employees, and after a lot of comment back and forth and exch ange of views, I can safely say that we have reached a consensus as to our approach in connection with the deve lopment of a pension plan for secre tary-tr easurers and employees in the provin ce .

Some details yet to be ironed out, but in the main, in respect to principle and the concept to which we are going, I would say that there is unanimity by all organizations in connection with the municipal pension plan. In 1975 the Department of Municipal Affairs worked towards the accomplishment of two main objectives: One is the preparation of the new planning legislat ion which is now before the House in order to replace the present out-dated, outmoded planning legislation.

The seco nd area of importance will be the integration of the Local Government 's District Branch and the Municipal Services Branch within the Department. An examination of the origin of the Municipal Services Branch and the Local Governmen t District's Branch re veals at their inception there was a logical reason for these branche s to be separate entities within the Department of Municipal Affairs.

Local government districts have now matured to the point where they' re operat ing, or should be operating, exactl y like any other form of municipal government, subject only to the limitations imposed upon the local government districts by leg islation. Since it is the long-rang e obj ectives of the department to move all local government districts to full municipal status as soon as possible, the first step should be to integrate the operations of the Municipal Servi ces Branch in the Local Govern ment District's branch. The pers onnel in the two branches are doing es sentially the same function.

That is, in assis ting in the administration and deve lopmen t of local government district units in the Province of Manitoba whether they be citie s, towns, village s, rural municipali ties or local government districts. There is an obvious advantag e and better utiliza tion of pers onnel in the two branches if the branche s are brought together and integrat ed. It is therefore the intention of the department to merge the two, the Municipal Services Branch and Local Government District's Branch as soon as possible, and I can say that in fact that' s pretty well now been fully accomplished, Mr. Chairman.

The objectives for 1975 are as follows: First dea ling with the Asses sment Branch, staff training: The pre sent system whereby the asses sment staff is required to participate in an edu cation program provided by the as socia tion of asses sment office rs of Manitoba is being dis continued. This program has been replaced by a departme ntal educat ion program. The aim of the program is to (

a) provide an orientation and basic course for asses sor train ee s; (

b) to provide an intermediate and advanced course for asses sors; (

c) to es tablish uniformity in valuation technique s and procedu re s; (

d) to bring the employees assess ment knowledge to an acce ptable level; (

e) to act as a refresher course for est ablished assesso rs. Due to a re latively larg e turnover in staff, due in part to employees leaving because they did not wish to move to the re gional offices which we set up - now there were only 3 out of 60 that left because of that; also there were others that left due to normal retirement and re signa tions and with the addition of several new positions, the training program this year will involve a larger number of people . We expect a total of 20 asses sors to be en rolled in the first year' s training cou rse . Another ei ght asses sors who have had some training will also participate in

3888 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ..•.. the course itself. June 12, 1975 New assessments: In addition to regular maintenance work, new assessments are scheduled in 29 municipalities, and I'll make available to the House the list of those 29 munic ipalities later. We have also included in the operations of the Assessment Branch, the Town of Dauphin and the City of Portage la Prairie. Once this has been completed, all the munici palities outside the City of Winnipeg will fall under the offices of the Assessment Branch of the Department.

Respect to computerization: Although considerable progress in the use of computers has been achieved, our aim is to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the computer program. Arrangements with Municipal Services Branch have been made for the necessary technical help. The provincial directors of assessment are continuing their efforts to reach a greater degree of conformity and assessment procedures across Canada. The directors have scheduled work sessions for January, April and June. The aim is to prepare a report for the Conference of Municipal Affairs Ministers in August of this year.

Under Municipal Budget and Finance: The main thrust in 1975 will be the employment of a municipal field accountant who will undertake to provide on-site training for municipal secretary-treasurers. He will be in a position to monitor the monthly financial statement more effectively than in the past, and with guidance and assistance from additional field staff the quality of these statements can be improved, we think, substantially. The field accountants can give assistance in processing the annual budget as well as preparing the annual statistical publication.

This should result in both processes being speeded up and thus providing a better service to municipalities in the province. Under Municipal Services Branch: The two main objectives of the Branch in 1975 will be to maintain and to build a firmer relationship between the department and the municipalities in the province, and to streamline the IBM system and to make it more effective and economic for all branches within the government. Other goals for 1975 will be as follows: To establish a seminar for newly elected officials, and that has now taken place, a seminar for municipal elected officials at Gimli.

Each seminar was two days in length and we've had four seminars and approximately 175 newly elected officials, Mr. Chairman, at tended these seminars in the province. We changed this format for the May short course for secretary-treasurers. We have met with the executives of the Secretary-Treasurers Associa tion and the Department of Municipal Affairs staff were included in this convention program rather than having an individual short course program. We also plan to do more in respect to education in connection with the metric system, the metric conversion.

This will include talks and discussions with various municipal people in the province, together with distributing metric leaflets. We also plan, Mr. Chairman, to complete a program overhaul and review of our own IBM system. The objective is to make the system more efficient and more economic. It is also hoped that it will make retrieval much simpler and easier than it has been in the past. We also plan to discuss with the Municipal Planning Branch the feasibility of using the land records that we have presently on file for use in the work of the Planning Branch.

Using our two field men we also plan to maintain a closer relationship with each branch and municipality. It is hoped that with this field staff we'll be able to assist councils and municipal administrators in their decision-making process. It is also hoped that we will be able to bring up administrative standards presently employed in the municipal offices in the province. We hope to be able to provide an administrative handbook for all municipal officers during 1975. The handbook would cover all general points of municipal administration.

Since this may make a fair amount of writing we are hopeful that we will be able to do this by the end of 1975, or at the latest by the beginning of 1976. I hope that the branch will be also involved in looking at urban units of the province to obtain an indication as to the needs that these communities have. For instance, infrastructures in the 1970s, in the 1980s, and to maintain and to perhaps encourage substantial growth in those communities during those decades.

Under the subject matter of Municipal Planning Branch, the principal objective for 1975 for the Municipal Planning Branch are: First, the introduction of a new Planning Act. And I would like to say, Mr. Chairman,

June 12, 1975 3889 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) •••.• that the passage of this Planning bill is absolutely essential if we are to conduct the affairs of the Planning Branch in a competent efficient manner over the next year with the developing problems that we have been faced with in the Planning Branch. Secondly, we plan to do a Brandon region study which will be a mini version of the Winnipeg region study that I've referred to on several occasions that has taken place over the past year with very substantial success. We will be also reviewing the planning service agreement system.

We'll be developing in addition, a format for standard urban and rural development plans. We'll be researching alternatives to the present system of zoning. We'll be also dealing with infrastructure studies, DREE, Northlands and Agri-Manitoba. Municipal Planning: There is no intention of undertaking vast new projects but rather the improvement of a service that has lately come under some criticism for its deficiencies.

What is required in honouring the undertakings that have been made to date, and introducing municipalities to the land use policy planning process instead of just zoning and fighting brush fires, under which system everything is in a crisis, leadership rather than reaction should be stressed. Particular emphasis must be paid to those municipalities in which sub division is frozen until there is a development plan.

Newly established field offices in Beausejour and Thompson must be brought to an operational level, and request for a renewal of outstanding planning service agreements must be dealt with during the forthcoming year. Now I would like to deal with major changes in respect to the estimates itself. The total estimates for this year come to $22, 170, OOO. In 1975 the total estimates were $18, 124, OOO, an increase of just slightly over $4 million. Of the increase of $4 million, 77. 8 percent, or an amount of $3 . 1 million can be classed as uncontrollable, and I would like to list the uncontrollable items.

First, there's grants in lieu of taxes. There are statutory payments, as we all know, under the Municipal Act and the increase is due to additional provincial properties, either built or acquired, anticipated increase in school and municipal tax requirements, here slightly in excess of $1 million. Unconditional grants: This is a statutory payment under the Unconditional Grants Act. The amount shown in the estimates is based on the per capita increase from $10. 61 in 197 4, to $1 2. 66 in 1975, equals 5 percent of the provincial personal and corporate income tax, a little in excess of $2 million.

The printed estimates, I should mention, that we do have before us, do not reflect an additional increase of $1. 00 per capita which was announced in the Speech from the Throne. Salary increases amount to $125, OOO, and thus the total that I referred to earlier of a little in excess of $3 . 1 million. General administration dealing with parts of the department on an individual by individual basis: Under general administration there is an increase of $2 6, OOO over the 197 4-1975 estimates, which is made up of the following.

First, expansion of service, salaries, new position, policy planner and research officer, $24, 700 . Salary increases, including merits and increments, reclassification, less provision for staff turnover, $8, 100, total of $32 , 800, less a reduction in grant honorariums $6, 800, for a net of $2 6, OOO this year over last under that subject heading. Traditionally the Department of Municipal Affairs has been a department of government which existed primarily as a service to municipalities.

This continues to be the principal role of the department and the staffing of the department reflects this in that the staffing reflects· the day to day services needs of the municipalities. When a problem arises which requires some research capacity within the department in order to formulate policy, it usually means that the directors of the branches have to be diverted from their principal function to perform this task.

It is felt that a policy and research person reporting directly to the Deputy Minister and to the Minister will greatly increase the department's efficiency and capacity and would be of assistance both to the government and to the municipalities. Under the Municipal Boards: The increase in 19 75-19 76 expenditures of the Municipal Board amount to $6, 100 over the previous year, and are due to salary increases and merit increments, and an allowance of $3, 300 for price increases for such things as travelling, stationery, and whatnot.

3890 June 12, 1975 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'

d) Under Local Government Districts: This branch shows a net reduction of $18, 500 over last year's expenditures. This is attributable to a reduction of $31, OOO for audit fees of the Provincial Auditor in auditing the local government districts. Auditors have now been appointed for each local government district. Their fees will be chargeable to the local government district. In this respect the local government districts are being treated exactly the same as the municipalities.

The Provincial Auditor will continue to do a partial audit for the purposes of satisfying the requirements of the Local Government Districts Act but beyond that the Provincial Auditor will not be involved but the actual auditing at the local government district level will take place in the same way as auditing is done for municipalities in the province. Under Municipal Assessment: The assessment program shows an increase over the previous year of $216, 400, which is made up as follows: First, workload change.

An increase in the Assessment Branch results from taking over the responsibility for assessment for the City of Portage la Prairie and the Town of Dauphin, now being reassessed by the Provincial Assessor. Eight new positions are required for the additional work, five assessors and three support staff. The City of Brandon reassessment is now almost complete. All municipal jurisdictions outside Winnipeg are assessed by the Provincial Municipal Assessor.

New regional assessment offices have been established since this time last year in Selkirk, Thompson, Steinbach and Portage la Prairie, which has been a continuation of efforts to promote decentralization of services within the department, and more specifically the Assessment Branch of the department to areas that are being served by the assessors them selves. The amount attributable to the workload change is $89, 200. Salary increases: Merit increments, reclassification, less provision for staff turnover, in an amount of $55, 300. Also allowance for price increases is $71, 900.

Of this increase, $68, 900 is attributable to increase in computer charges. Under Municipal Services and Research: The Municipal Services and Research Branch shows an increase of $134, 800 over last year. Of this amount, $68, 400 is directly attribut able to computer charges from the Computer Centre. An amount of $43, 900 is attributable to workload changes by the addition of three new positions. These will be personnel who will be travelling constantly and visiting with munieipalities in order to offer greater departmental assistance. We were very fortunate here, Mr.

Chairman, in obtaining services of three secretary-treasurers in the province to do this work, that, I think, are heralded by all municipal people in this province as among the leaders in the area of municipal secretary treasurers in the province, and we were very very fortunate here in obtaining their services during the past year - I'm referring to Mr. Hay, Mr. Fulsher, Mr, Loeppky, who have been secretary-treasurers for many years in Manitoba. During the past year, there were approximately 29 new secretary-treasurers appointed in municipalities and of the 29, 19 were inexperienced.

This placed a heavier responsibility on the department to make more frequent visits to municipal offices, and to make certain that we maintaina close liaison with the municipal secretary-treasurers and councils, especially where the secretary- treasurer is new and inexperienced. More educational training for both the elected and the appointed municipal officials is necessary and we are attempting to do this by way of an expansion in the seminar program.

In the fall of 1974, a one-week seminar was held at the Industrial Base at Gimli for secretary treasurers, and three seminars of two days each were held for newly elected officials. These were, as I mentioned before, involving approximately 175 newly-elected municipal people.

We therefore feel that the workload change of the three additional staff members to this branch is essential if we're to maintain the standard of administration in the municipalities, The other increases in this branch are attributable to additional travel expenses and educational assistance, $9, OOO; salary increases, merit increments, reclassification, less provision for staff turnover, $6, 700; allowance for price increases of $75, 200, as was pre viously pointed out, of the price increase of $75, 200, $68, 400 was attributable to computer

June 12, 19 75 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) , •.•• charges from the Computer Centre. 3891 Under the sect ion, Municipal Planning Branch, the increase in the operations of the Municipal Planning Branch over the previous year is $642, OOO. One of the major reasons for the increase is the workload change re sulting from 11 new staff positions, which now include four addi tional profe ssi onal planne rs required to provide better service to municipalitie s, and seven support staff to be located in rural re gional office s.

At the present time, the Municipal Planning Branch has entered into planning service contracts with 89 municipalities. Many of our planne rs are handling a workload of 8 to 12 municipali ties attempting to provide an ade quate level of planning service. This means that the planner will attend 8 to 10 ev ening planning mee tings per month on a re gular basi s, plus any additional meetings which may arise because of unfore seen circumstances. This is unsatisfac tory from both the point of view of the municipalitie s and from the plann ers' point of vie w.

Such a workload is completely unrealistic if we are to expect the planner to give the municipality the kind of service which municipa lities have a rig ht to expect, and in fact to in sist upon under a planning service contract. We are therefore in a proce ss of reassig ning planning responsibilities in attempting to be tter relate the planning workload with the available staff. In recent months we have had to defer en tering into planning service agreements re quested by municipalities because we thought it was not fair to enter into such a contract unle ss we were in a position to provide that service.

Of a $642, OOO increase, $108, 900 is attributa ble as follows: New progra ms, the Northland agreement, salarie s, $48, 800; consultant fee s, $40, OOO; printing, travelling, $20, 100 ; total, $108, OOO. Municipal budget and finance: The increase in the est imates of the Municipal Budge t and Finance Branch is a li ttle in exce ss of $3 million. Of this incre ase, the $3 million con sists of an increase of a litt le over $1 million in conne ction with grants in lieu of taxes; a li ttle in exce ss of $2 million in unconditional grants.

Only $18, OOO, therefore, is attribu table to salary increases due to merit increments and allowance for price incre ases, mostly to cover increased printing and stationery costs. Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the comments of the House because the comments have been most useful in past years in leading to a streng thening of the work of myself as well as the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 85(b) -passed; (c)-passed; (d)-passed; Re solution 86( a) . The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, regarding the salaries of the Municipal Board, the year ending 197 4 in our accounts - the reason I bring that up, it's the only acc ounts I have at the present time that we have . In the municipal board salarie s, in 197 4 we had a total of $101, 288 - well, that was the budget, but the salar ies were $87, OOO. Now there was the one man in there that I believ e is the Chairman of that board, Mr. Mitchell, received $3 1, OOO, which is 40 percent of the salaries of the Municipal Board. Co uld you tell me what that salary is at the present time and the other salaries on the municipal board? MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: While we pinpoint that information, if there are other questions that we could proceed in the meanti me ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister if he co uld throw some light, or give the House some information concerning the meeting of the Municipal Board that was held in The Pas, I believ e, on March 3lst, 197 5 . MR. PAWLEY: In where ? MR. JORGENSON: In The Pas, concerning the trailer court at Wanle ss.

I unde rsta nd there were some difficulties re garding the location of that trailer court, and some irre gular ities has been bro ught to the attention of the Municipal Board. And I would wonder if the Minister could advise us what those findings were as a re sult of those hearings . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would want to first check to asc ertain whether that matter is still before the Municipal Board . Apparently it is before the Municipal Board at the present time so that it would be improper for me to comment. MR.

JORGENSON: I wonder if it would be possi ble some time to receiv e a report on the findings of the Municipal Board with respect to some rather grave irregularit ies , ac cording

3892 June 12, 1975 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) .... . to my information, that occurred as a result of the con struction of a mobile home, or a trailer home rather in Wanless, and some of the activities of some of the people involved.

It seems to me that it is a matter that should be cleared up, and I would appreciate very much if the Minister could, at his earliest convenience, or earliest opportunity, give the House that information, or if the House is not sitting at that time, if I could be provided with that information when it becomes available from the Municipal Board, after they've made a decision. MR. PAWLEY: Yes. This has been an area where I've had some glancing information as to the conflicts and issues that appear to have arisen in regard to the trailer court in Wanless.

Whether or not that was in fact was an appropriate place for a trailer court in view of the interests of the Kelsey School Division, interests of the Town of The Pas, their own attempts to create and develop infrastructure and, as the honourable member has indicated, in connection with actions of some that were involved in the community, and from the point of view of the trailer court and the advisory committee, I believe. In connection therewith I would look forward to giving to the members a full report once I'm assured that this matter has been concluded by the Municipal Board. MR.

JORGENSON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate when he expects a report from the Municipal Board. That hearing took place, I believe it was March 3lst, which was some time ago, and it would seem to me that in the light of the evidence that was presented before the Municipal Board hearing that there should have been no great difficulty in arriving at some conclusion as to the activities that took place. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I understand that they've had their hearing in The Pas, the hearing was adjourned, they've requested a report from the Planning Commission, which is a requisite to their coming to a final conclusion on this matter, and I'm informed that they're still awaiting a report from the Planning Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 86(a). The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I just am wondering if the Minister has been able to put those salaries of the Municipal Board together now before we carry on. MR. PAWLEY: Yes.

The salary for the Chairman of the Municipal Board, $33, 300, and for the members of the Municipal Board - there are two that are on Management Com mittee staff so they're not actually chargeable to the Municipal Board itself. Then there is the salary of part-time members, and they're $3. 3 thousand each, and in some instances 5. Now it depends upon the number of meetings, because we've worked out a system by which there is a flat fee, plus so much for additional meetings over a certain number.

We've done this in order to attempt to encourage greater participation in the ... and less travelling by Winnipeg members of the board - to encourage more representation in the various regions of the province insofar as meetings are concerned. So that there is some variation, from 3. 3 thousand to $5, OOO for the members of the board, depending upon the number of meetings that they've attended. MR. CHAIRMAN: 86(a) - passed; (b) - passed. Resolution 86, resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $147, 500 for Municipal Affairs - passed. Resolution 87(a).

The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to bring a matter to the Minister's attention, and he's probably had some representation from the local government districts with regard to this particular, but I would just like to bring it up once again. It relates to not only local government districts, I think you could also say it relates to Crown lands, which could possibly come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Renewable Resources and Lands.

But the problem that has been brought to my attention by several people in the local government district that I represent, is one in which land was taken by the Crown about 10 years ago under the former administration. Land that went up for tax sales, and then because the people in the area could not afford to pay the tax on the property, the local government district took that land over for tax sale, and it was then the owner of that land.

And then I understand the Crown took those lands that were in question - and as I mentioned I think it was about 10 years ago - took those lands and put them into Crown holdings. Now the problem facing us today is one where we have a number of aggressive farmers in the area who have done fairly well in the last little while, prospered and worked their lands. They're anxious to keep their families on the farm but because of the problems facing them with the acquisition of new lands, and of course the government not selling any of these lands,

June 12, 19 75 3893 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. BANMAN cont'd) .. .. . their activities are cu rtailed and they're forced to farm on the existing farmland and there is no room for expansi on. I think this is one of the problems that is facing certain areas in the local government district that I'm in. There are certain lands that could be cleared and made good farm land .

I have one particular case here where a gentleman, close to East Braintree, has been trying for the last six years - and I have a whole thick file of cor respondence here - and he started in 1969 and wanted to purc hase some land from the governmen t and he 's outlined it very clearly, and he runs ri ght through to the last letter that he has received here, and this one happens to be from the Department of Agriculture, it is dated Oct ober lst, 19 74, and that's the last time he had some corre spon dence .

Now I unders tand that the government is now willing to lease him that land but there are certain problems involved with that too, becau se he's got to clear it, and at the cost of clearing land today we all can appre ci ate that it's going to cost him a fair amount of money. I think that, as I mentioned before, it 's hurting the Minister of Agriculture 's stay-option policy.

I don't think that these people are going to be able to keep their families, their sons, or their families generally, or ev en, for that matter, attract any new people, if something is not done in allowing these people to expand their present facilities. I would once again point out to the Minister, I'm sure he has had representation by the local government districts, and I understand he has, with reg ard to this matter.

I know that some of the land possibly should be left in the hands of the Cr own becau se of the wildlife management, and that it is not su itable for either the growing of crop s or even for pasture land, but there is a fairly large amount of land that was taken away at that time from the munic ipalities that could be used, it's arable land, and I think could be used to help build up some of these commu nities that are presen tly facing problems of decline in population and also decline in tax base and thereby they can' t afford some of the re creation facilities and different facilities that would be conducive for these people to stay in that area.

As I mentioned, I think that the one case that has been documented, and it's docu mented fairly extensively, by the one farmer in the area, speak s for itself, and I think the local gov ernment district s, as mentioned, have expressed this concern and I would ask the Minister that he have a good look at this problem that is facing the smaller local government district s, espec ially the one that I mentioned. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River) : Mr.

Chairma n, I listened with a great deal of interest to the Minister in his opening rema rks, and he spoke rather eloquently of the local government districts, and that there was going to be an inclusion of the Municipal Services Branch. You know, Mr. Chairman, I'm talking about the Local District of Mountain, and if there was ever a negle cted group in this province, or area, or people, I would like to hear about it. The particular area that I' m referring to, Mr.

Chairma n, in the Cowan area for one particular part of the Local District of Mountain, the last two or three years have suffered from floods, and I have appealed to the government to do some thing. Many of the farms in these particular areas, Mr. Chairman, are marginal lands, but somehow or other these people have been able to take a living from the land, as small as it may be. But I will never understand why the department is so niggardly in contributions, and I can just turn to the item here . There was a reduction of $18 , 500, and for the total area of these government districts, Mr.

Chairman, it is some $360, OOO, plus $300. How in the world the Minister could talk the way he did with that kind of mediocre amount of money that's required, I' ll never understand . I su ggest to him, Mr. Chairma n, and to his de partmental people, to go into these marginal territories and see how these people are living, and to suggest to me that this is the kind of money that is required to uplift their way of life . The government over the years have encouraged these local district councils, and they're doing an excellent job, but insofar as govern ment support is conce rned, it's very very lacking, Mr.

Minister, very, very lacking. I want you to have a second look. Only last year I brought to the attention of the government the flooding in the Cowan area, where farmers lost cattle ; there was no funds available. Two years prior to that, I bro ught to the attention of the government the flooding of the area. The Minister of Mines and Resources said there was no money for that sort of thing. No funds had been made available . And you know, Mr.

Chairma n, the Department under the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources are fully aware of the program, with the flash run- off from the Duck Mountains that complete area is flooded, and it's just through neglect over the years.

3894 June 12, 1975 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. BILTON cont'

d) The tax input from the country I'm referring to is very very marginal, Mr. Chairman. I would like to see the Minister and the government take an interest in those people, because, to my way of thinking and my association with them, how that they are good living people and don't ask for a great deal, they're not asking for charity, but they're asking for the govern ment to look into these marginal properties they've got. Give them the same consideration that's given to southern Manitoba in flood clearance and ditch digging and general assistance, and you're not going to do it, Mr. Minister, with $360, OOO.

They, to me, Mr. Chairman, those people that live in the local government districts, certainly in my area and north of me, are the most neglected people in the Province of Mani toba, and I would ask the Minister in all sincerity to take a second look and give those people a chance, and to give them the assistance that they deserve. With that assistance, as marginal as it may be, Mr. Chairman, I am sure that they in turn will do their part to co-operate in the interests of their own livelihood and the children that they're bringing up. And I say to you, Mr.

Minister, through the Chairman, that, in particular the Cowan area, I would ask him to take a look at it and make up his own mind as to what they need. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, first in connection with flooding problems, drainage problems, the Mountain District would fall under the programs which presently occur within water resources for those drains that are of provincial responsibility, and of course would be responsible in the same way as any other municipality in the province in regard to drains which fall under municipal responsibility.

I think I should point out that there is no moneys included within the estimates that we are debating, 87, for flood prevention, that those moneys are all included under the Underwater Resources in the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. So that really we're not involved as a department in the providing of moneys for flood fighting purposes, that is . . . MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, if the Minister would permit me to interrupt him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

BILTON: I fully realize what he is saying, but I am asking him to use his influence as Minister on behalf of the Local Government District of Mountain. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Yes, well I certainly would be most anxious to do that and --(Inter jection)--! would like to. It would probably be safer under those circumstances to leave this subject now and go on to the next subject.

The problem raised by the Member for La Verendrye is one that has worried us for quite some time, and that is that lands which were over the years acquired through tax sale by the local government districts, were transferred in trust, and as a result of a mutual agreement, to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources to hold those lands in trust, and this has, as the Honourable Member for La Verendrye indicated, been a policy for many years, predating the advent of the present administration.

We, the Honourable Member for Lands and Forests and Fisheries and myself, have been working together to develop a joint position in connection with this, because I find it very very difficult to accept the present arrangement. I would say to the Member for La Verendrye that it may have been possible to argue that Mines and Natural Resources should be entrusted with these lands for adminis trative purposes, but I think insofar as improving the economic agricultural life of the local government districts involved that one can find very little to defend for that policy that has been in existence in that respect.

So hopefully, Mr. Chairman, we'll be able to move towards a policy by which those lands that are acquired through local government district tax sale will be made available to the local government districts, possibly with some conditions, yes, attached, to the use of those lands, and as to how they are to be utilized. But I think it is important that many of those lands that are now not being held, not being dealt with at the local level, be dealt at the local level. I certainly also feel however, Mr.

Chairman, that there are some of those lands that should be transferred in final form to the Crown, whether it be for purposes of wildlife, habitant purposes, or some other purposes. There's many of those lands that should be turned over to the Cr own, but there are other of those lands that should be returned to the local government districts, because those lands in the first place were received under a trust arrangement.

June 12, 1975 3895 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'

d) So I hope, Mr. Chairm an, that we'll be able to develop a policy which will be more accept able, more rat ional, and hopefully will contribute to a better sense of eco nomic via bility in the local government districts that are involved, and I want to assu re the Member for La Vere ndrye that this is a matter that weighs presen tly very much on our min ds . MR. CH AIRMAN: Re solution 87(a). The Honourable Member for La Ver endrye . MR.

BANMAN: I thank the Minister for those remarks, and I would , ju st on a matter of poss ible clarification to myself - at present these lands that were taken, I think they orig inally were under the privy of the Mines and Natural Res ource s - have they been trans ferred to the Department of Agriculture ? Are they administrating these Crown lands now ? MR. CH AIRMAN; The Honourable Minist er. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, it is true that some of these lands are presen tly admini stered by Agriculture under agricultural-cro wned leases.

They are all ori ginally LGD lands prior to the tax sale, but it is true that some would fall under the cate gory of agricultural Cr own leased lands. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Veren drye. MR. BANMAN: Again, another point here, Mr. Chairman, would this mean then that the lands held by the Department of Agricul ture were possibly such lands that could be used for the, as mentioned, for the upgrading and for agricultural purposes generally, because I think that I'd like to know if • . . or are they also holding some lands that are wildlife habitat lands. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairma n, what we have to do on our

part is to identify all those lands that the Crown has commitments on, and we'r e in the proce ss now of moving towards identification of the lands as to sect ion, township, range , so that we will have a full and proper inventory of all the lands that are presen tly involved that were once LGD lands prior to tax sale .

Then we're going to have to deter mine whether some of those lands should be utilized for wildlife or for agricultural purp oses within the provincial sph ere, what other lands should be re turned to the LGDs, but principally I think we have to develop a policy that will speak for the future so that re sidents of LGDs will !mow in the future that tax sale lands ought to, and I think they ought to be dealt with in a way that' s compara ble to the me thod by which, of course, tax sale lands are dealt with at the municipal level. So there 's a prob lem of those that have taken place during the last 10, 12 years.

In handling them, I think they have to be identified, inventor ized, and the be st possible use be obtained for them, some of them to be retu rned to the LGDs, then to develop a policy for the fut ure . Philo sophically I would like to cert ainly see us develop a policy that will move toward s, as close as possible, one which is comparable to that followed by municipa lities in conne ction with the me thod by which they handle tax sale lands. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, I have already spoken on this item but just by way of clarific ation, I'm sure the Honourable Minister realizes that the area I was referring to is mar ginal land and these people are trying to eke out a living, and have done for many years, and will continue to do so.

The tax return for their area is very very limited and as a con sequence the council, elected councils, are strug gling, and this is my main point in rising again, is to emphasize the fact that I would ask the Minister to look into the way these people are continuing to exist on the limited funds that are available, and as I say, on mar ginal lands the taxes are very very small, and that what I' ve already said, I would hope I could go back to my people and say that the Minister has sympathy with them, and he will look into the matters that I pointed out a few moments ago in their inter ests. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 87. The Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Sou ris-K illarney): Mr. Chairman, I ju st want to say a word to the Minister on local government districts. It relates to the committee that was set up a few years ago and which toured the north, all over all the local government districts in the Province of Manitoba, and held public meetings. At that time the local people in many areas were wanting more control of their municipa litie s, and I was ju st wondering if any of the municipa lities have been given full control over their areas.

At that time we visit ed, I forget, Lynn Lake, Churchill, Gillam - I'm ju st trying to relate all the various areas in the north - and then we toured the Interla ke area, local government districts, and also east of the

3896 June 12, 1975 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) .. .•• Red River, and I was just wondering ..• The comments at that time were that advisory boards had no control, and that they were looking for more control of their municipalities but they didn't want to contribute to the cost of the operation any more than what they were doing., and I'm just wondering whether many of them have been given the privilege of electing their own councils, and operating their own municipalities, or whether they are still operating on the same system as they were three or four years ago when we held this committee.

It would appear that many of them, the communities in the north, stood a better chance, like Lynn Lake, Churchill and Gillam, and those towns - well Gillam' s a hydro town principally - but many of them stood a better chance than some of the local gov ernment districts in the rural areas that we visited, especially where there is low assessment. very low assessment, under $1 million, many of them. I was wondering if many of them ever will be able to get control of their municipalities, like the operation of the municipalities, be cause of the fact that they haven't got the tax base.

There's one municipality area at St. Laurent, I think, we visited near the end of our tour on the Interlake that was in a different position. Another one up there north near Ste. Rose, and I was just wondering, they in turn had been at one time, I understand, organized municipalities, and they in turn turned it back as a local government district. I forget what the

interpretation .•. I'm just not familiar. But have those municipalities had elections recently or in the last couple of years, and have they regained total control of the municipality as they had in the past years? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, there have been some developments. First, St. Laur ent of course has moved to full municipal status, and their elections were held at the beginning of this year. In the case of the R.

M. of Lawrence, and whichtakes inRorketon , I had a meet ing with the advisory committee and the administrator about two months ago, and indicated to them that I thought that we could no longer justify the present situation, and had asked them to seriously look at the position of Lawrence and I gather that there will be a meeting very shortly - and the reports that I have received is that there is a good chance they'll be moving to full organized municipal status, so that I'm hoping by the time we appear here next year, Lawrence will be added to the ranks of St. Laurent in that regard. I'm also hoping, Mr.

Chairman, that we'll be able to make some progress in our northern local government districts, industrial LGD' s.

Certainly there is no reason from the point of view of financial viability and the volume of assessment, that Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids, Churchill, Snow Lake, Gillam, possibly should not be - at least they should be thinking seri ously in terms of incorporation - and they are - in fact, Snow Lake, we' ve had meetings there, I've had discussions recently with Churchill in this connection, and I think once the redevelop ment program is completed and we have that extra volume of assessment there as a result of the construction that has taken place, that there would be very little justification for not pro ceeding toward full municipal status.

Lynn Lake, they have a very active advisory committee, and I would hope that very shortly they would proceed in that direction. So I think there 's going to be developments in the northern communities. There is a reluctance in the southern LGD's, and I regret, Mr. Chairman, that I don't feel that I've made very much progress in the southern LGD' s in encouraging them to move towards full municipal status.

I was naive enough to think 4 or 5 years ago that everyone would want to determine their own affairs, would want to have full municipal status ; in fact, I'v e indicated to them that I'm surprised they don' t demonstrate out in front of the Legislature saying, give us self determination, give us full municipal status. --(lnterjection)--That' s obvious. But that 's not been the type of response that we've been receiving.

Maybe it's been our fault - we haven't been doing sufficient educational work in some of these districts and we haven't been getting home to them the message of what improvements could take place with full municipal status. I expect that we'll have a number of additional ones to report this time next year in addition to St. Laurent. I'm not too hopeful, though, in the space of the next year or two that we'll have made too much progress with our southern LGD' s unless there 's a pretty sudden change of mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR.

McKELLA R: One of the problems of the rural LGD's I would imagine, it's prac tically impossible for many of them because with related assessment, the amount of assessment

June 12, 197 5 3897 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR McKELLAR cont'd) •.... they had very low asses sment - and eve ryone of us know that even the organized areas that we represe nt, many of the municipali ties with le ss than about 5 million asse ssment today are having real trouble s. The cost of machinery and the cost of all their operations, you know, maint enance of roads and ev erything is taking an enormous amount of money, which is causing them no end of troubles trying to get by.

Now most of these municipal ities in the unorganized areas were arou nd a million asses sment I think, some of them a little lower - but I was wondering, in the towns like Lynn Lake and Gillam, Lynn Lake being a company town, the mining comp any provide an enormous amount of money to supplement the taxes in that given commu nity, I understand. --(Int erject ion) - Yes, in Lynn Lake .

Gillam was financed practica lly all by Manitoba Hydro, and that tremen dous community centre that they have in Gillam was an outstanding - and I' m ju st wondering, if it wasn 't Hydro backing that, I don't think any commu nity could afford to maintain that community centre, because it must cost an enormous amount of money; in fact, I was told how much it cost each year that the Hydro had to supplement the maintenance and operation. It might be impossible for a community like Gillam to ever become organized, in my opinion, for the reasons that it wouldn't have enought asse ssment.

Another factor would be, too, that the cost of maintaining the community as such with a floating population would be practically imposs ible for it to be or gani zed on its own. I was wondering - if you have any figures - how large a community should be before it' s viable . This is the one thing - do you have assess ment, do you have population, or what guideline s do you use before a commu nity might be via ble ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, it is very, very difficult to relate it to figures because - for instance, we could take Reynolds, a very very large area, very very sparse population and quite low asses sment, as against a LGD of Churchill for instance that will be, probably by the end of this year, could be in the rang e of $8 to $10 million in asses sment. So that they vary a great deal as to population, asses sment, area of land.

All I can say to the Honourable Member, that we are presen tly studying the eco nomic feasi bility of fu ll municipal status in Snow Lake, Lynn Lake, Gillam; we expect by the end of the year, very hopeful, that Churchill will be ready to move towards full municipal status - and Leaf Rapids - there should be no reason that they would not be ready to go by the end of the year. I think that probably pretty well covers it. MR.

McKELLAR: Ther e's just one other problem I'd like to bring up, and I do n' t know whether it's related, but many of our - like the village of Wawnesa is 500 population and about half a million or 600, OOO assess ment - one of the probl ems that they are having is providing services right now and it' s becoming a real proble m. Now there are in some cases local village districts, I unde rst and, like the town of Re ston which has that type of government where they'r e elected but also they're financed through their rural municipality.

Now will this be some thing for the future, where they have an organization like that operating their town like Res ton I'm referring to? It's a local villag e district , is it? Or what's the name, the interp retat ion of the ... ? I think this may be the answer to many of the probl ems of the communities like, say, 600 or 700 population or le ss than a million ass ess ment, because I think ther e's a lot of our towns are going to be in deep trouble financially unle ss they make some arrangement with the rural municipalit y to assist them in providing services within their community.

Cou ld you tell me what they call that organization that runs the town of Re ston - and that's only one town I'm referring to. MR. PAWLE Y: Re s ton would be unincorporated villag e status. But, Mr. Chairman, one of the problems that we face is that - take Wawane sa for instance, with a population mentioned by the member and its asses sme nt, if Wawane sa had not been incorporated when it was many years ago but was applying now for incorpora tion, they wouldn't qualify under the provisions of our Act for incorporation, requiring now 700 population, 700, OOO in assess ment.

One of the dif ficulties I think we have to recog nize is that many of the centres, because of the very shift in population from smaller villages and towns to larger cent re s, the advent of the car, are ru nning into difficul ty, financial as well as social dif ficulty. And I think that what we have to look at very closely is whether or not it would not be better that more of these communities consider disincorporation. For ins tance, staff were down in Napinka about two or three months ago, they're seriou sly looking at whether they would not be better

3898 June 12, 1975 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL - AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ..... from their point of view to disincorporate and become part of the R. M. of Arthur, or Edward, or Winchester, I believe it is in there, rather than con tinue at the present time, because with the reduction in asses sment, population, it's hardly fiscally viable for them to carry on in their very limited shape. Foxwarren did that a few years back, disincorporated and became part of the R. M. of Ellice. So thatl think, Mr.

Chairman, that we're going to have to do more - and this is where I look forward to our re search personnel that we're bringing in to do a little bit more in-depth study of this than what has been done in the past, so we're not flying so much by the seat of our pants in ad hoe way in regard to these various communities. So the Honourable Member is right, there is a problem so far as a lot of our smaller villages because of reduction in population and asses sment. I think we're going to take a better look at this.

It may be better for many of them to disincorporate, become part of an unincorporated village status such as Rest on as mentioned. Within the LGD's, that type of role is defined as unincorporated urban district, such as Cranberry Portage is at the present time, managing certain affairs on their own but basically being part of the LGD of Consol. MR. McKELLAR: The village of Glenboro, they had a real tragic problem last year where the water table - it's an underground lake they're built on and the whole sewer line erupted and caused an enormous expense, about $30, OOO expense.

Now their problem is, they've got $30, OOO expense on that sewer line, they've got 9 mills on their hospital that they've got to pick up this year, and I understand they came in to Mr. Richmond to try to sort their problems out. It's going to create a real problem on their community for the next three years, trying to finance and trying to maintain the prese nt services.

Wawanesa' s got a real problem, they hired an engineer from Saskatchewan to design a field lagoon, he didn't know that particular soil and he decided to put a pipeline up the side of the Souris River bank, put the lagoon on the top - next year the whole pipeline, or the line up there to the lagoon, it collapsed, so that everything's running into the Souris River now. The problem is, they got a 50-year debenture on that that they're paying to Central Mortgage and Housing I guess, and they're still not making any use of the lagoon.

And their assessm ent - I don't know how they're going to correct that problem because it's just too big for their asses sment, and they can't build another lagoon and pay for two of them at the same time. Many of these communities, I don't know what help you give them, your department gives them - I guess you give them all the help you can, the problem is the financial end. They're just running into no end of trouble anyway, providing this type of service.

The guide lines I would say, with the cost of providing services, many of these towns are going to have to be up to 2, OOO before they can exist as a community pretty soon and also practically $1 0 million assessm ent, I would say. It's getting that serious. But these communities, they're not going to get that big - the present ones, they're not going to grow, there's no way they're - they haven't got anything for expansion to that extent. I can see, even a town like Souris, they're going to have problems providing services, and so on down the line.

And it really worries me, because many people retired into these communities thinking that they could survive, and now they're finding out their mill rate's over 100 mills and it's going up in leaps and bounds, there just seems to be no end to it and they're just wondering what the end result's going to be in three or four years. It's just getting that serious. Have there been any conferences - I suppose this problem will be dis cussed at municipal meetings next week, some of them, maybe, will they ? They all belong to the union, most of them belong to the union, I guess, the municipalities, don't they ?

But it's got to the point where I can see - I wouldn't want to see any of the communities go bank rupt, this is what I'm afraid of and I don't know how some of them are going to avoid it with the overexpenditures they're having at the present time. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, the situation at Glenboro is a very difficult one.

I had a meeting with the Glenboro mayor and councillors, I think it must be now 9 months ago, a year, and when this problem first arose - and it really narrows down to the fact that with the collapsed pipe and circumstances that led to that, that they're going to find themselves not only paying for the collapsed pipe but for the additional infrastructure that is required, so that they have a very difficult burden to carry in a financial way. But it is certainly part and parcel what the Honourable Member describes as an issue, that we have to confront a number

June 12, 1975 389 9 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) .. .. . of fronts. I think that cer tainly the agricultural policy is very basic to this, stimulation of ec onomic life wi thin our rural communitie s. I think also, Mr. Chairman , if I could say this, that this is one of the great needs too for us all to become more planning conscious, that we are now making mistakes because of a lack of fores ightedne ss, probably a lack of failure on our part.

And here I'm speaking of us all to do somet hing about our planning in the province and to try to organize and to encourage local people at the local level to come together to, yes, to make their own deci sions - I think that is the impor tant thing - but to provide some leadership to local people in deve loping those options so that comm unity A, B, and C can get together and deter mine how they are each going to contribute to what is their district, not individual districts, but their total district within the area . It's very - let' s face it, Mr.

Chairman, it's a difficult task in a political sense, because who is going to go to Community A and say, hey, look, you' re fin ished. Yo u might as well acknowledge that and assist in building up comm unity B which is only 15 miles away . It' s a very diff icult situation, but it is a problem faced by our small urban cent res . The honourable member is correct when he says that it 's the small urban cent res that are in the main facing the great est financial difficulty, the R. M. s, their mill rate is low in comparison to the towns.

The problem is cer tainly very much before us and I think there are so many diffe rent ways that we're going to have to deve lop, but from our depar tment's end, planning, we'v e got to provide them with better tools. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 87 (a) - passed; (b) - passed . Res ol ution 87, resolved that there be granted to Her Majest y a sum not exceed ing $360, 300 for Municipal Affairs - Pass ed. Resolu tion 88(a) - The _Honourable Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister rig ht out - we had all the talk about - well, there was a lot of talk, there was a lot in the papers about one asse ss ment on 100 percent of market value happening in the City of Winni peg. Is it going to happen in the rural values and is it the intention of the government to change the assess ment to that policy. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I had indic ated my position in re gard to co- value assess ment to both the Urban Assoc iation and to the union and I would like to see us proceed.

I think eventu ally we will be moving in that direc tion. But I also indicated that in order for full value asse ssmen t to be success ful in the provin ce, then I would want to be satis fied that we have municipal support and support of the two municipal organizations, and I so indic ated to the org anizations that we would not be procee ding. Now the City is a diffe rent story, they could I suppose proceed, they have their own asses sment branch.

I'm not sure how they're proceed ing on their own without reference to the Provincial Asses sment Branch, whether or not that would be possible, that's something they would have to work out; but insofar as the Pro vincial Ass e ssment Branch is concerned, that we would not proceed to full municipal asses sment until such time as we had support of the municipal organizations to move in that direction. I regr etfully say, Mr. Chairman, that that support is not forthcoming at the present time. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Glads tone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone) : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In view of the fact, Mr. Minister and Mr. Chairman, that we in the rural are facing the heavy municipal taxation plus the school taxation, is there any inclination on the part of the government to introduce asses sment on farm buildings ? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Did you say, introduce asses sment on farm buildings ? MR. FERGUSON: Pardon ? MR. PAWLEY: Did you say introduce asses sment on farm buildi ngs? MR. FERGUSON: Well, will you be asses sing farm buildings, yes. MR. PAWLEY: They're asses sed, but not part of the roll. MR.

FERGUSON: Again, I have to have the help of the Minister of Agricultu re . He was a big help last night and I cer tainly appreciate it. Thanks very much. But - will we be paying tax on farm building s, then? MR. PAWLEY: No, there is no intention to change the pres ent method in regard to taxation of.farm bui ldings.

3900 June 12, 1975 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris- Killa:rney. MR. McKELLAR: Mr . Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister a co uple of questions. I notice in the Brandon Sun not too long ago, ju st about a week ago, where the agricultural land surrou nding Brandon, the asses sment had gone up 250 percent compared with what it was, and I would imagin e this will partly put those farmers out of busin ess - and that's in this new area that was taken over from Co rnwallis the other year.

Now that will mean that the people inside the Ci ty of Brandon in the agricu ltural land will be paying about 3 times or 4 times what Cornwallis farmers, rig ht across the fen ce. I realize that the same assess ors are working on both, because your Asse ssment Branch is handling all assess ments in the Ci ty of Bra ndon now, but surely there must be some way of ea sing that burden. As long as they' re retaini ng it for agricultu ral purp oses and farming it as such, I would say that something will have to be done for those particular ...

I used to rep re sent those people for eleven years in that municip ality of Cornwallis and I have some idea of what 's involved there . I can see that with the mill rate they' re paying pre sently in Brandon compared to the Cornwallis and with assess ment up 250 percent, many of these people won't be able to retain that land - it 's agricu ltural land - because they'll be priced out of bu sin ess.

I can also see why the asses sment went up, because if you market value, some of the people have been selling small parcels around Brandon for quite a larg e amount of money, but that doesn't re ally help the man that wants to retain his land for farm purp oses and try to make a living out of it. There are some dairy farms in that partic ular area, and other people who have small acreages, but most of them east of Brandon there are farming in a normal manner.

Now one of the problems of assess ment - and I know what they always answer, I used to argue with our own Ministers of Municipal Affairs on assess ment - I always said, why don't you asse ss all the area within a given school division, it would make more sense to me trying to explain it to the people in my ar ea? Will one municipality be asse ssed this year, another one five years later, and maybe another one ten years later, and some 12 years later? This is where the problem lies, that it' s kind of a hodge podge .

But �hey always say, well, equalized assessm ent, balanced assess ment, with the end re sult you're paying the same amount of money pretty well. Well that's pretty easy to understand, but it' s pretty hard to explain to the rate payers in a given municipalit y.

Now I think the Member for Pembina has a bill here trying to ju stify something - and something that has happened in the past is pretty hard to jus tify - but all I'm saying in the future, if the Asses sment Branch would pick out 4 or 5 municipalit ies or a given area within a school division and do them all in one year, and go on to the next school division another year and do that, it would make more sense I think to most of the ratepayers.

Ten years in my municipalit y, I think, Oakland, where I live, my farm, since it 's been last assessed and I know that we' re going to get one awful shock when we get the next asses sment. I' m sure of that, because the farms were selling for $125 an acre, have gone to 225 or 250 now, with all this big money that's around ri ght now. In ours, I know it won't make that much difference because it 's all ru ral, but it doe s crea te problems in a school division. And I'm talking principally about sch ool divisions, where you have six or seven rural municipaliti es and three or four towns in a given ar ea.

Surely there must be some way that those assess ors, which in my area are stationed in Souris, can go out and do that one block in one year and go on to the next school division and do that next year and that would, I think in turn, would be a fairer system. Maybe you could explain how the equalized asses sment, the balanced asses sment brings it out in the same, supposed to be the same, factory by the time your computer gets finished with it.

I always admired those compu ters because they always correct the human error, they say, but it still doesn 't tell the people who own pr operty and pay taxe s that they'r e paying the same amo unt as they would if they had a new asse ssm ent . And it' s awful difficult for those of us to explain to the people . MR. CH AIR MAN: The Honourable Minister. MRo PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, one of the greatest difficulties that we have in assessing in regard to a school division is the lack of coterminous boundar ie s insofar as municipa lities and the school division are concerned .

Most of the school divisions in Mani toba do not have coterminous boundary lines with the municipalitie s that consist of the school divisio n. For instance, Lord Selkirk School Divisio n, you would have ju st a lit tle corner of the R. M. of Ro ckwood, the R. M. of West St. Paul and the L. G. D. of Alexan der,

June 12, 1975 3901 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ..... and possibly a little of Victoria Beach and - well, the entire St. Cl eme nts and the entire St. Andrews municipality and the Town of Selkirk. But no cot ermi nous boundaries, and this is the problem, the detJartment tries as much as they can to do the reassessment as much as possibly within school divisions. So I suppose what is faced is a need to de velop some better rationalization in respect to our school division bo undaries, but of cour se then there is often pec uliar re asons that the residents in one little corner of an R.

M. wish to be served by the school division which is made up of the other municipalities rather than the larger part of their own municipality. The only answe r that I can see for ev er increasing escalation on a long term basis of agricultural land is that we do have some better procedures of desig nating farml ands for farm land purpos es.

And again I hate to be reh arping on the subject - but coming back to planning, bec ause as long as we have on-plan development, ad hocery in our planning, if we have urban pressures outward as we do from Brandon, from the Ci ty of Winnipe g, spec ulation taking place, sub divisi ons occ urring next door to a farmer, that we will find that the influence from the prices that are being received for that purch ase of land for spe culat ive purposes is going to influence the assessment of the bona fide farmer.

And the only way we can prote ct the bona fide farmer is to come up with some proper planning scheme that will prevent this from taking place inso far as a long term sol ution is concern ed. The only other area which I think that we are going to have to take another good look at is the le gislation that we looked at but did not proceed with a few years back, and that was some form of tax deferral, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney. MR.

McKELLAR: .•. assessment, one of the problems - and I'm always told that to the marke t value - and they go to the La nd Titles Office and take out a whole block in so uthwestern Manitoba, in my case, and maybe there 's 50 farms change hands and then they average them out, where they co uld calculate it and computerize it - I do n' t know, that's what I used to be told. Maybe it's different now. But we had some uranium money that came into our district and bought a number of farms .

We get some Massey-Fer guson dealer in Br andon who wants to buy about three farms a year in my area, he's got about 10 or 12 right now and he 's going up in le aps and bounds ev ery year - and the Hutterites come in, and they pay an enormous amount of money and so on. What factor do you use for arri ving at a fair mark et value for agricultural land ? MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

PAWLEY: I should just point out to the honourable member that when we're dealing with the top sales of land and the lower sales of land, that in the process of working out the assessment the assessor does ignore the low of the range and the high of the range, taking into consideration the general average of value of the farms within the immediat e area of comparable soil, rock, drainage, proximity to markets, all these factors entering into it, generally going back for about a four-·3rear space . MR. McKELL AR : I just have one further question I wanted to get.

Is it the intention of the department at som e given day to assess this land every five years ? I realize that last year that all the assessors in Souris were going into Brandon, to do the job in Brandon becau se they had to re assess the whole city and it had natura lly held them up in some of the ru ral municipalities, but is it the intention at some given day maybe in the future that every five years the land will be reasses se d? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, it's always rather hazardous to make projec tions, but we cer tainly expect by 1977 to have developed our system so that every municipalit y will be done within five years, and some a shorter period of time than five years. Ce rta inly there are some municipalities where it would be wrong to leave them for a full five-year stretch, where we have constant press ures, many sales, a lot of development - for us to wait a full five-year period would be to create much inequity within the municipalit y so that one has to proceed sometimes three, four years in those cas es.

There are some municipalities however that - an d some time ago the Member for Pembina had mentioned one or two that have been left altogether too long - but by 1977 , we project that we 'll be on a five-year program . There have been some additional pressures lately becau se we brought in Dauphin, Portage, B, andon. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James) : Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, throug h you to the Minister. The Minister will recall last year at the time when his estimates were being

390 2 June 12, 19 75 SUPPLY - MUNICIPA L AFF AIRS (MR. MINA KER cont'd) ..... presented, that I raised the subject of the possibilit y of reclassi fica tion of curling clubs in terms of asse ssment, whether at the present time in the instance of the Winnipeg area that curling clubs and golf clubs are classified as commercial and industrial assess ment and as a res ult pay the commercial education tax.

And if the Minister will recall that I indicated one of the reasons that I favoured this and hoped that his department would look at this, was the fact that these clubs form a rec reational centre in many of our communities, particularly in the winter season which is, as he and I know, is very long.

And we're partic ularly referring to clubs that, while they may have shareholders, offer their services extensively throughout the communities to junior partici pation, the training of young high school curlers and also blind curlers and senior citizens and so forth; that in general the clubs that I am aware of - partic ularly in my own constituency, like Deer Lodge Curling Club - offer this service to the community. And the concern that we have with what is happening to this type of facility, is that slowly they are getting taxed under.

And I can cite an example with Deer Lodge Curling Club, and they're based on last year 's taxes and this year's asses sment rates, that in the instance of Deer Lodge Cu rling Club they paid a total of somewhere in the order of $6, 830 in taxes, this included municipal and recreati onal, and paid in the vicinity of $3, 800 for education tax. And further, with regards closer to home, in the case of the Rossmere Cl ub, I believe that last year they paid $10 , 783 for education tax.

Now in all told, the var ious curling clubs throughout the Winnipeg area last year paid somewhere in the order of about $140, OOO in education taxes. And it's always been our unders tanding that the philosophy behind the difference in education tax was one that commercial entities, busines ses, utilized the knowledge of the person that they employ to make a profit off, they utilize their education and their training that we, the taxpayers, paid for. But in the case of curling clubs, there are not that many people employed in the operation of the facility. Further, they're a non-profit organization.

And rather than see these facilities be taxed out of existence and turned over to the municipal governments to operate, and obviously at a much higher cost, we would hope that his department has done something in the last year, because it was our under standing with the reaction that we got back from the Minister, that he sort of lended an unders tanding ear to what we were trying to draw to his attention - and I wonder if the Minister can comment with this regard. Also, I have a golf club in our constituency, the As siniboine Golf Club, which is a small nine holer, . and it is experiencing the same proble m.

And it is not an expensive private members' golf club, it is utilized by a good number of the people in our community and it, too, is facing the same proble m. And it is my underst anding that other golf clubs are facing this proble m. So we would like to hear with interest what the Minister and his department have arrived at with this problem. . . . . . continued next page

June 12, 19 75 3903 SUPPL Y - MUNI CIPAL AFF AIRS MR. CH AIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY : Mr. Chairman, there have been a lot of discussions, provincially and also at Municipal Affairs conferences, on the entire question of asses sment, exemptions, methods of asses sing.

And the general reaction across the country - including, I must say, on our part - is to attempt to move away from providing any further exemptions insofar as assess ment is concerned, or changing from the prese nt system to, as for instance here, to change from commercia l to farm and resid ential asses sment, because the question we must ask ourselves is then, where do you stop ?

Because under non-farm and residential there are so many different types of halls and clubs that are now assessed at the commercial or the higher rate as a result of legisla tion which was passed away back in 1966 , when the legisla tion in this connection was first enacted. So , it's a question of where do you stop ? If you do exempt golf, cur ling clubs, d,o you go on to the other different clubs and exempt them all ? I would like to think, Mr.

Cha irman, that the most proper way from the point of view of municipal government making these types of determinations as to the contribution made by a curl ing club or a golf club to the community, is to do it by way of grants to these org anizations, outright grants so that ratepayers can see just what amount of public support is going to that organization.

There's no reason why a municipality could not, the City of Winnipeg for instance, could not grant X number of dollars which they could calculate to be the difference between commercial, and commercia l rate and residential rate if they feel that they want to support a particular orga nization to provide that by way of a grant. Then I think the rate payers can better identify that; they can better determine whether or not they feel that is a reaso nable preference to be demon strated by the municipal level of government than by fiddling with the assessme nt system.

I think it really would be more str aighforward, easier identified, and would be a much more accountable system than if we tinkered with the assess ment process in this connection. We hope by this summer to have a full report which has been requisitioned by the Minister of Municipal Affairs across Canada on the total question of as sess ment and exemptions. There was a feeling that we should proceed aeS much as possible in a uniform way across Canada if there were changes to be made. For instance, in Saskatchewan, the Law Sehool in Saskatchewan is exempt from taxation, the Law School is exempt from taxation.

Now, you know, just what sort of logic there is for exempting a law school from taxation. It 's to provide assist ance to the law group for instance. Saskatchewan only has that exemption. So these are problems that have to, I think, be dealt with as much as possi ble on an overall basis. MR. MINAKER: Yes, Mr. Chairma n. Through you to the Minister.

Does not the Minister think that by reclass ification - we're not asking, or we're not suggesting that the facility not pay a tax, all we 're suggesting is that where you have a recrea tional facility within a community that is used by a large number of citizens within the community, how one can arrive at the conclusion that if it's a non-profit oper ation that it should be taxed at a higher education rate than say farm land ,:>r residential, because they're not making any profit off the people that work for them.

So that all we're saying is to look at the philosophy behind the application of the education tax, and why a facility that is, in my opinion, much more efficiently providing this service to a community .. . If the municipality or the city is asked to give it a grant, then what happens is you are then asking the city and the city taxpayers to pick up part of the education costs, this is in actual fact what you're d::iing, the additional education costs.

So my point at this time of raising was, with the philoso phy and the reasons for , in the first place, applying such a facility as a commercia lly assessed property, and that's having to pay the higher education tax. I would think that this would be the cleanest and easiest way of trying to keep these facilities going, and then hopefully out from under the operating costs of the municipalities which are alr eady burdened.

If we can have generally the citizens of the area run and keep these things operating - as long as they don't confine them to a select few, I don't favour this - and this is why I'm speaking out, because the Deer Lodge Cu rling Club which I know, and also the Assi niboine, have opened their d,::>or s to the area, not only to the immediate vic inity but throughout Winnipeg and to different orga nizations.

So that I would hope the Minister would reconsider and to look into this, and in some way without exempting them completely from the tax, at least look at whether in fact it is the right philos ophy to hit them with a higher additional education tax. MR. CHAIRMAN : Resolution 88. The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to bri efly comment that I still think that the

3904 June 12 , 1975 SUPPLY - MUNIC IPA L AFFAIRS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) .... best way to do it, if you were going to be equitable to all those within the community, and to deal with it in an overt way rather than a covert way, is to provide a grant, a grant from the municipality to the organization so all can see it, it can be weighed from a political judgment point of view as to whether that contribution should be made.

The alternative as sugge sted, I think, by the honourable member is to diminish the assessme nt means, say, the tax load is reduced from $ 2, OOO to $1 , OOO in respect to a curling club , a loss of $1, OOO in tax revenues, then that is going to be spread over all the other taxpayers within the municipality. Some are curlers and some are non-curlers. Maybe some of the non-curlers would object to finding that they are contributing some extra money towards the support of the local curling club. I don't know.

But I think that would be better if the municipality took a clear -cut decision and said, "Look, we're going to provide a grant to the curling clubs so all can see it, it's identifiable, it's accountable, so all can see we're supporting the curling club to the extent of $1 , OOO. " MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 88. The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, from the Minister's answer I would then presume that he favours the concept that these facilties, these recrea tional facilities that are non-profit should pay a higher education tax than, say, res idential facilities. Is that correct ? MR.

CHAIRMAN : Resol ution 88 (a). The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that the Minister himself brought up this question of municipalities that get away behind in their asses sment, because I have an area down around Morden and Winkler that 's very high assessed, and within five years they're rea ss essed, and within Manitoba there 's some municipalities that are 13 years behind. And this isn't fair. And I'm just wondering, how come that these - I know you're having trouble getting staff to do this !'eassess ment - but how come some are as many as . . . MR.

CHAIRMAN : Order please. MR. HENDERSON: ... 13 years behind. and yet you're reasses sing some within the five-year period ? Why don't you get back to the areas where they're 13 years behind? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY : Mr . Chairman, this is certainly a real problem that I would acknowledge. Those that have not been assesse d for 12 or 13 years - and there are very few in this example, I gather five in number - are those where there has been, I gather, next to no sales at all within the municipality, very very few sales , if any, in that municipality.

If it's not I would like to certainly have particulars and check that out further. But I gather that there are municipalities where there have been very few sales, and for that re ason there hasn't been felt the necessity of asses sment. I'm not finding that by way of an excuse bec ause I think certainly that no municipality should be allowed to go that long. And i.n the area for the Honourable Member for Pembina. in 1975 there 'll be done the R. M! s of Dufferin, Morri s, South Norfolk, Victor ia. Carman and the Village of Treherne. in that area.

There are other municipalities that are cer tainly done much more frequently because of the very pressure of repeated sales, and it's very difficult to keep up the equalized assess ment basis, and equitable basis within that municipality, because of the very constant series of sales, pattern of sales, without much quicker reassessm ent. MR. HENDERSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, on that statement I would just have to say that maybe there hasn't been a number of sales in that area but there 's no doubt in the world out what their sale value has gone up, and maybe there isn't too many sales recorded, but ther e's no doubt because of the great increase in price of grain and that the value of these farms have gone up considerable, and that any area that is 13 years behind is far too far behind, and it should be reassessed long before any area that was assessed four or five years , is reassessed. MR. PAWLEY : Mr.

Chairma n, I certainly would not want the honourable member to misinterpret me. I re ally find no basic excuse. I think that there is no excuse for the fact that many assessme nts have not been done earlier than they have. We have a lot of new as ses sors this year being retrained, and all that I can again repeat is that by 1977 we project and we hope to be in a position where there' ll be no municipalities longer than five years in the pattern. There have been problems, but basic ally there's no justification for some municipal ities having gone as long as they have. MR.

CH AIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON : Yes , thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, I would like a

June 12 , 19 75 3905 SUPPLY - MUNI CIPA L AFF AIRS (MR. FERG USON cont'd) .... clar ification of a statement of the Minister of Ag riculture that all farm buildings are assessed. If the principal source of income is still on the farm, are those buildings assessed ? MR. CHAIRMA N : The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLE Y : Mr. Chairman, basic ally the farm buildings are not assesse d. They've been picked up for information purposes only.

If the principal - the question was about the principle sour ce of income ? - -(Interje ction) -- If the principal source of income is off the farm from other earnings in excess of that which is obtained :m the farm, then of course the buildings are taxed. --(Interjection) -- MR. CH AIRMAN : Resolution 88. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairma n, I would Like to bring up the point of recrea tional buildings to the Minister.

And really the re cr eational buildings in most areas are assessed commercially, and I think if you change that assessme nt from commercial assess ment you're goL1g to d:i them a big favour. Now there are areas in the country where curling clubs will get grants in lieu of taxes from the city, or something of that nature, or the town, but basic ally they are assessed commercia lly. Now if you j ist change that from a commercial assessme nt to a resi dential assessme nt while it's a recr eational building, we'd be going a long way.

I know the Minister favours grants, but let's not kid oursel ves, it would be awfully nice for the treasurer of every cur ling club to stand up at every annual meeting and say, "We just got a grant from Big Brother Government. " That would be a very nice thing to have happen for the Pr ovincial Government. But I really think, I really think if you 'd just change their asses sment from commercial to the re sidential base, you'll be doing them a big favour. MR. CH AIRMAN : Resolution 88. The Ho'l.ourable Member for St. Joh ns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, there was one point raised by the Member for Pembina that I don't quite comprehend. He says that if a - and this is a hypothesis I gather - if a community, a municipality has not had a rea sse ssment for some 13 years, and if admittedly there have been very few sales on which to base an increase in value, the Member for Pembina said, "Well, we know it must have gone up in value anyway, so let's reassess it.

" And since I have had very little success in my practice in law in being able to upset assess ments , it was mainly because there was a pretty strong base laid by the ass ess or to show the increased value, and really the best way of showing an increased value is on the basis of what the value is to a willing buyer. Now if there are no sales in the community, then how do we know the extent to which it should be reassessed ?

I would not obj ect to the proposal t'.iat it ought to be, but would the member then say that you take, let's say, 25 perce nt of the province and average the assess ment increased based on sales and apply it to a municipality that hasn't had .:my increase bea ring in mind that as within the municipalities, it should not make any difference what the as sess ment is ? Now I think that if the change is because of additional improv ements to the propert y, then I understand that, that if somebody builds an elaborate structure, then the asse ssment goes up.

But if it is done on the basis of land , let's say, and there are n:i sales, then I don't really quite comprehend how it's to be done, and 11evertheless if the suggestion is that the asses sments aren't looked at for 13 years , then of courGe I think that's wrong because they must be revi ewed. But I have trouble understanding that. And 3.lso I have trouble understanding what the difference is if all the land is assessed .vith the same yardstick within a municipality, then the mill rate is higher but the ta xes are no different. Mr.

Chairman, I want to swing over now to this discus sion about the question of recre ational buildings be ing taxed as commercial rather than reside ntial. And now I have to ask whethe.r a recrea tional building which services a sel ect group of people, those who wish to participa te in one or the other of the facilities offered them, should be taxed at all, and if they are not taxed, or if the assessme nt is judged on a reside ntial rather than a commercia l rate, who pa ys the difference? Because in the end it's going to be paid, the taxes have to be paid.

So if they're not paid on the recr eational building, then they're paid by the taxpayers of the municipality; then they will be either applied against a res idential bJ.se or the commercial base. or rea lly they'll go against all. In the end we find that the dollars will be raised, and for a good reason because recrea tional buildings, as the Member for Sturgeon Cre ek pointed out in an earlier debate today, they still have to be service d '.Jy police and by protection, and they still need water and sewer connections, and the roa ds still have to be prepared for them,

3906 June 12, 19 75 SUPPLY - MUNIC IPAL AFFA IRS (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) .... and all the services that go to buildings will have to go to these buildings. Now are we rea lly debating the redistri bution of the burden of taxation? I think we are. I think we're saying that if there is a curling club, and the Member for St. James mentioned a cur ling club, then all the reside nts of the municipality should be paying that tax for that curl ing club , because that curl ing club's tax being waived or reduced will be redistri buted over the entire community.

It appears to me that what we're saying is the mere construction, erection of a recre ational facility by a non-profit organization immediately puts a burden on the entire community to provide the services for that recrea tional club. Now I just don't know where the advantage is, or the extent to which it should be spread over the entire community, rea lly without option being given to the community.

When we speak of grants, and the Minister did :and he was I'm sure speaking of grants made at the local level, presuma bly by the municipality, at least the elected people in the municipality are making a positive decisibn. They have a choice and they say, "Yes in this case we wish to waive the taxes and in another case we may not wish to. " But the members seem to imply that the municipal government, Big Brother, should make the decis ion . . . I mean the Provincial Government should make the decision for the municipal government as to whether or not it should support the taxation through a lower assessme nt.

Which then should bring us to the question which - I admit I

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-126
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 126.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	97add25fe32745527a6d2658d9d27f46b2001cda

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