Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THlRTY-SlXTH GENERAL ASSEMBL V OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 83

December 5, 1974, Tape 1902, Pagel -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MOTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I shall introduce the following resolution: WHEAREAS the standard of living of the ordinary of the ordinary citizens of our province will suffer irrefutable reverses unless some semblance of order is restored to our province's productivity machinery, · and

WHEREAS during this present year to date the province has lost uncounted hours of productivity through work interruntions, and

WHEREAS the bulk of this loss of productivitv can be attributed directly and indirectly to breakdowns in connnunications between employer and employee incompetence at the executive and management levels,

now THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that a select committe of the House be formed immediately to study the practicability of the terms of reference for the organization of a provincial productivity council where the membership truly representative of all parts of our province geographically and all levels of management and labour with the general objection of achieving complete team work within this province of employer and employees, aimed at nationalizing productivity to that level of competence without which the ordinary citizens cannot onlv expect no improvement in their standard of living, but on the other hand will inevitably force further inflation and economic deterioration.

For without productivity improvement, Sir, there will be less and less for all to share. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member's motion appears to be in order procedurally and as far as I can see now it will be on the Order Paner tomorrow. Are there any other notices of motion? ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH ~•'JTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: 7610

December 5, 1974 Tape 1903 IB-1 The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): In answer to the honourable Member for Twillingate, no we have no intention right now of purchasing the ferry in question yesterday. HON. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): I have an answer to a question. I guess notice of motion has been given, has arrived up on the eighth floor today.

It was with respect to a question asked by the honourable Leader of the Oppositlon yesterday with regard to a situation in the Marystown Shipyard in which a gentleman had been suspended because of the difficulty - there were two people down there, in effect, who had been accused of theft. These people took their case to arbitration. One of them was found to be indeed guilty and he has still been suspended. The case in point was one Mr. Stapleton. The question was raised regarding him.

It is most unfortunate because the gentleman in question has been rehired by the shipyard on recommendation of the arbitration committee. He is now on staff at the shipyard, I understand. He is receiving pay and is fully reinstated. The question of the pay that would have been given to him had he not been suspended is one that once again has been referred to arbitration. There appears to be some question as to whether the money that he earned while he was laid off is to be subtracted from the money that he was due had he not been laid off. It is now a subject of arbitration.

It seems to be awfully involved for a very simple matter. Several meetings were held with the Arbitration Board and I understand that Mr. Stapleton did not show at either of them. However, the matter is being resolved. If indeed the amount of money, $5,000 or whatever is due him, it will certainly be paid him. There is no question about trying to deprive him of any pay or any rights that he has. He has been, as I say, reinstated. The case has been referred in terms of his monetary losses, has been referred to another arbitration committee. He will be fully reimbursed for any monies owing him. MR.

ROBERTS: So, the retroactivity question is open? MR. DOODY: Completely open. If it is proven that he needs or deserves 7611

December 5, 1974 Tape 1903 IB-2 this money, then certainly he will receive it. There is no question about it. MR. ROBERTS: No doubt, he needs it. MR. DOODY: That is right. That is the point. HON~ DR. A.T. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, in answer to a question yesterday by the honourable member for Bell Island regarding incidents of mumps in the province, I would have to state that there is increased incidence. I have been able to obtain the figures.

Although mumps is one of the epidemic diseases that we get fluctuations of every few years, we have up to this point something like 600 cases scattered through various parts of the province. If you think of the number of school children, about 150,000 in the age group who will be infected, it is not being reported to us by the health officials as being an epidemic. I think the important part of the question was with regard to the availability of vaccine. I am able to say that some time ago we approved and authorized the expenditure of $25,000 for combined mumps and measles vaccine.

The chief medical health officer is in Ottawa at the moment, due back tonight. I had not been able to get, therefore, details of the distribution but the vaccine is available. I will be discussing with the chief medical health officer tomorrow how this will be distributed. So, the answer to your question is yes, we have the vaccine ordered. ORAL QUESTIONS : MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Fisheries, Sir, has not risen in his place in this House on a point of personal privilege concerning an item that appeared in yesterday's Daily News', I can only assume that the facts are correct and I am going to put a question to the honourable the Premier, Sir. Will the honourable the Premier - HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. That matter came up here yesterday and I do not have to rise on a point of privilege in connection with it.

I told the honourable gentleman that I was not quoted correctly, nor was I quoted in context. Therefore, any statements that he draws from that newspaper interview are 761~

December 5, 1974 Tape 1903 IB-3 quite incorrect in any event. Any questions based on it are just wasting the time of the House. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Hr. Speaker.

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1904 Page l - MW The honourable minister, Sir, made no such statement in this House yesterday that he was quoted out of context. He denied having made any statements at all, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: I denied making the statement you quoted. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable minister denied having made any statements. Sir, I submit to the minister that there were thirty-five witnesses at that meeting including a news reporter. MR. M.ARSHALL: Point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I may.

The whole question is out of order because it is quite apparent from the rules of the House that it is not competent in a question period for a member to inquire whether statements made in a newspaper are true or not. The honourable member has been using the question period for the purpose of inquiring and cross-examining as to whether questions or issues that have been raised in the newspapers from time to time are true. The Hon. Minister of Fisheries had given an equivocal statement yesterday even though he was not bounded to reply to it under the rules that this was not true.

This question is completely out of order on the basis that it is not competent for the Member for Bell Island to ask questions whether statements in the newspaper are true and similarly it is not competent for the Member for Bell Island to ask questions with respect to which an answer has already been given. }{R. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The gentleman from St. John's East has once again used a correct rule and used it incorrectly. The Beauchesne citations are quite clear.

If one cannot properly, in order, inquire as to whether or not a certain statement in a newspaper report is correct or not, it is not the purpose of the question period to ascertain the accuracy 7614

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1904 Page 2 of the reporting in the public prints. One can , however, ask whether a certain statement represents the policy of the ministry. You will find Your Honour if you check the Hansards in Ottawa that this type of question is asked quite regularly. My colleague has not been asking whether "The Daily News," the newspaper in question here, reported it accurately or not.

If there is any quarrel that is between the Minister of Fisheries and "The Daily News," Although it is significant the Minister of Fisheries, who is normally willing to boil reporters in oil, when they do not quote him correctly, has not made any motion to drag the offending reporter before the bar of the House. What is in order, I submit, and it is an important point 1 to ask whether certain statements and the honourable gentleman can make the statement, whether a statement represents the policy of the ministry.

That, I submit, is a perfectly appropriate question and is so held under all the rules and the citations in Beauchesne MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Sneaker, here again the Hon. Leader of the Opposition has gone to another rule which is also true but the way in which the question has been framed and framed by the Member for Bell Island is whether or not the Minister of Fisheries made a certain statement emanating from a report from "The Daily News"', The fact of the matter is that the Hon. Minister of Fisheries already answered this yesterday.

You are not allowed to ask - he framed his question in a manner - if he wants to ask what represents the policy, that is fine but he is not allowed in this House to impute that a statement made in the press(This would be a very dangerous precedent if it were allowed to continue) is the policy of the government, This would be dangerous in itself but even more dangerous to impute it to come from the mouth of the Minister of Fisheries or any minister of the government. That is the reason for the rule, If the Hon.

Member for Bell Island wishes to pose a question in accordance with the rules, that is fine. t~t him understand and apply the rules before he gets up to ask a question. 7610

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1904 Pa~e 3 _MR. SPEAKER: It is now due to some five or six minutes of the question period debating this point of order. The whole matter was dealt with yesterday by the Minister of Fisherle .s. ne did make a statement resulting frnm the question asked hy the Ron. Member for Bell Island . If the Hon. Hember for Bell Island wishes to ask the Premi er and indeed any other min·ister a question that is his prorogative but he was particularly having a long

preamble and was almost making a s peech in this particular question. l think the matter was dealt with yesterday and should not be brought up a ~ain today. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, 7610

December 1905 Tape 1905 RH - l Mr. Speaker, would the Hon. Premier indicate to the House whether or not next year we are in for some very, very difficult times as forecast by the Minister of Fisheries at Memorial University, the day before yesterday? ~ffi.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! That is in essence the same question that the honourable member asked the Minister of Fisheries yesterday which we just debRted and I am rulinp this question out of order. MR. NEARY: I can ask what questions I like, can I nod I am not _____ .. referring to the newspaper.

My question is directed to the Hon. the Premier, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I am sure the honourable member for Bell Island is also aware that even if he wanted to, with the new rules brought into the House he is not allowed to question or challenge the Speaker's ruling durin~ the question period. ~m. NEAR~: Well, Mr. Speaker, could I put another question to the Hon. the Premier. Would the Hon. the Premier indicate to the House whether or not his administration is going to face the thirty-nine collective agreements that have to be negotiated this spring?

Will there be an election or will the administration be too cowardly? Will the administration be too cowardly to face this round of negotiations? PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, it could be either one or the other. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with that question, Sir, and I wish to debate it at five thirty this afternoon at the · late show, Sir. AN HO"lOURABLE MEMBER: The answer. The answer. MR. NEARY: I am dissatisfied with the answer, Sir, rather, and I want to debate it at five thirty this afternoon at the late show. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want to get back to the ~inister of Education who gave me an answer to a question November 28 about a bulldozer that was hijacked from Bell Island District ,rocational School. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island as I mentioned the previous day tends to get into a speech and unnecessary comments during the question period. If he persists in doing that I shall also persist in ruling his questions out of order. 7611

December 5, 1974. Tape 1905 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: Could the Minister of Education inform the House if the bull- dozer that was hijacked from the Bell Island District Vocational School has yet been returned. MR. W. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

That ouestion is obviously out of order and if the honourable member for Bell Island wishes to abuse a democratic right conferred upon the opposition and given by this government he can but I suggest the question period was conferred upon the opposition for the first time in the historv of Newfoundland to be used in a much more constructive manner than it has been by the member for Bell Island. MR. SPEAKER: I rule the honourable member's question out of order. MR. N~~: Mr.

Speaker, will the minister inform the House, Sir, if a certain gentle~an on Bell Island who took a bulldozer from the Vocational School in July and is still on his property, if he will be charp.ed from the time the bulldozer left the school until its return or will he be char~ed for the actual number of hours worked? "ffi. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is a question that - one is not allowed to ask a question which anticipates the answer. The honourable member for Bell Island is askinp a question with respect to a certain person who is indefinite, who took, apparently, a bulldozer.

That anticipates an answer and therefore is completely out of order. >.m. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Once again the honourable gentleman from St. John's East is quotinp, a rule and applyinp it in a situation which is not intended. The question my colleague asks has nothing at all to do by way of anticipating an answer. He simply asked whether a gentleman who took a bulldozer was going to be charged money for the time in which he had that bulldozer or not.

It anticipates an answer yes or an answer no and in that sense, Your Honour, any question must of necessit-y, inherent in itself, anticipate an answer but it is not an an anticipatory question within the meaning at set forth in Beauchesne. AN HONOUR.ABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. MARSHALL: Further on that point of order: It has to anticipate the question. If the honourable member for Bell Island wishes to ask a question 761~

December 5 1974 . Tape 1905 he has t.o first ask of course whether or not somebody has taken a bulldozer. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. RH - 3 MR. MARSHALL: He anticipates the fac~ that somebody has taken a bulldozer, whatever that means. ,m. ROBERTS: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, further to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! There has been enough debate on this point of order. I refer the ho110urable member for Bell Isiand to Beauchesne, page 14 7,

Section 171, Subsection (3} which says, "An oral question must not multiply with slight variations a similiar question on the same point." MR. NEARY: Of cou.rse, Mr. Speaker, the .re was no shuiliar question concernin11: involving the charges 7619

December 5, 1974 Tapel9'l6 PK - 1 for that bulldozer, Sir. AN RON. MEMBER: Since Rern Fitznatrick took the bulldozer out of Lewisporte. ~IR. SPF.AKER: Order , please! MR. NEARY: Nr. Speaker, well let me simplify it by .1ust asking the Minister of Finance will Mr. Fitznatrick be charged from the time the bulldozer left the school - '.!R. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is an outrage not 1ust a breach of order. On page 14 7 of Beauchesne, :! t savs ''A ouestion oral or written must not : (

q) contain or imnly charges of a persona] character. ·· l,Jow what 1'::lnd of a Fouse are ~,e defending to vhen the honourahle gentleman gets un and make a question like that char ~ing sowe­ hodv with taking a bulldozer. AN HnN . MFHRF.~: The last noint of order , Mr. SpeakeY • 1-IR. Cll.OSBIE: ..•. Mr. ~peaker, has a bulldozer been taken from such and such a vocational school upon which the minister could check. This is outrageous this kind of slanderous imnutation. T.t is not allowed in the question period. To that poirt of order, Mr. Sneaker.

The only char,i:e involved in this is the question of whether or not there is to be - }fR. CROSBIE: A charge of theft. HR. RORERTS: Ts ~P ~one? Is he done for the time being or are the rules of order one-sided? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. l'IR. SPF.AKr.R: Order, nlease! MR. ROBF:~TS: Fat your heart out John! Always number two. Now, '-'r. Speaker - MR. CROSBIE: number two. ,m. ROB!IRTS: ~ow, ''r. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 'MR. ROBERTS: You know the incred:lble thing is he got to he numher two briefly before he was disnlaced. 1'1P.. SPEAKER: Order, nlease ! MR. ROBERTS: Now, '-!r.

Speaker, as I was saying to that point of order, / the only charge :lmp:J!ed or involved in any way is the question of whether or 7Gt.O

December 5, 1°74 PK - ?. not '·Ir. Fitzpatrick is to be charged rent? That is the pol icy of the adm:f_nistration. Now the other question is to whether or not Mr. Fitzpatrick had or has, I do not know j_f he has at this moment, a bulldozer belonging to the government, to the vocational school on Bell Island. I believe that my colleague has a letter from the 11inister of Education in which he confirms that Hr. Fitzpatrick either had or has the use and care of a hulldozer belonging to the District Vocational School on Bell Island.

All we want to know is whether he has paid for it or not and if he has not naid for it. is he going to? ''!R. SPFAKER: Order, please! 'J'he auestion as I have ruled on practically the same question twice now and for the third time it is out of order. MJl .• NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could nut a auestion, Sir, to the Hon. the PremiP.r in the ahsence of the Hon. M'inister of Provincial Affairs. Would the Premier indicate to the House whether the alternative to Tlobin Hood Ray is going to be located over in the District of Harbour Main or AN HON . 1,(E'MBE" : Inaudihle. HON. F. D. MOn~FS (PPD~IFR) : '1r.

Speaker, I have no idea but I certainly will asl,- the '·'in1 ster of Provincial Affairs and Fnvironment. ~!R. cRosnrn: "1:P. 'fOflRES: It will prohablv be moved to Rell Island. No, we cannot move ft to Bell Ii,land there are too many good neople there. 'IR. 'IARSHALL: Inaudible. }!R. SPEAKER: The honourable Hember for Labn1rlor South. "'ffi. '1. }".ARTIN: Mr. Sneaker, T have a auestion for the Hon. ).linister of Transportation and r.ommunications. I have two,so to save time I will nut the two together.

The first one is: Could the minister :1.nform the House what the status of the Labrador Royal Commission Report is at this narticular time1 What, if any action has been taken so far? '!ore impc,rtantly how is the distribution of the printed report nrogressing? A number of neonle have asked what this is, so I ask the question for the benefit of the media more than anything else. The second question is; Has the government made a decision on the long term policy on subsidization of 7621

December .'i, 1974 Tane JQOI' PK - 3 a 1r fares t o third level carriers. I believe they 1-1ere deliheratin J;! on tt,.at fo r thP. last sP.veral rnont~s . MR. SPF.AKF.JI: The flon. ''inister o f Transnortation and r.olT'llllunica t:lons. HON. J . r.. ROUSSEAU (ITT'ITSTF.R OF T~ANSPORTATION ANn COM!·'UNICATTO~S): '!'he first ouestion on t he Labrador Poval r.ornrnission Reoort , s>,overnment have alread y made a dP.c1sion on !lome of t he major as1'ects of :lt and t ha t will hecome nublic lrnowl ed ~e 5n t he near future, as soon as the facts are clar-1.fied.

I thin lr oossiblv tl>e Premier or the 'linister of Indu!ltrial nevelonment who is Presitlent of Treasury Board mi,11ht like to elaborate further on t½at. In resnect t o t he recommend ation s of the Labrador ?oval <:ormnission Renort,all 288 of them - AN HON. ~lf?IBER: Will he renP a t that, Sir? - -· ROUSSFAU: The first answer o r this one? ~ RON, MEMBER...:. Inaudi ble , 'IP . ~Ol'SSEAU : l-lo l was 1ust sui::11:estinl! that one decision has heen ll'ade .

The Premier made some stilteme ,nt of nr ior ities last ~•ear nhen the commission r enort came out and one dec i sion haF nretty ~ell heen taken hy i ove rnmen t and now under studv by t he Treas nrv Board. as J understand it r i ght, Sir. AN HON • ''~F.R: ~fP . l>Ol1SSEAI!. of i t , AN HON. :fEMlll"' .: 1-':R . ROUSgEAU: Inaudihle . Hell the nr ocedure for it, and t he nrncedure and the mechanics Inaudj ,hle. T ~a:! d the decision has t-een taken and 'T'reasurv :Board 762 '2.

December 5, 1974, Tape 1907, Page 1 -- apb is considering the mechanics in a procedure to set up to carry out that policy decision.

(2) The two hundred and eighty-eight recommendations: Each of the deputy ministers were written in respect to the recommendations, adjusted the status of each one. We now have them in. The last one came in just a few days a11:o. We are looking at those now and the Premier has requested me to prepare a paper on the departmental reviews of these and thev will be done and hopefullv the action will be taken on whatever ones can be tak~n next year depending on whether they are short-range or long-range things. Certainly the hope is that action will be taken on some of them.

In respect to the distribution, of course, as the Minister of Public Works and Services prior to this knows, it was printed in that department and these were sent out. I am sure the honourable member can appreciate as cannot other honourable members of the House that the volumes involved are auite expensive to nrint. It cost us some fifteen dollars to print. Normally anvbody who wants them as we had them printed they could be r>urchasecl for fifteen dollars each.

T.n some instances the school libraries and so on, although there may have been problems with respect to some requests , but normally certain institutions and other whom we felt should have them were given free gratis copies. These copies normally - normallv they write to me and I would forward it to the distribution centre and they would be sent under normal conditions. Sometimes thev request not the full volume but only the svnonsis of it.

He send that too where oossihle but anybody we do not feel has a direct contribution to the renort or should not have it free, of course, will he charged a fee of fifteen dollars for the report. In respect to the second question, the second ma.ior question on the policv on subsidization of the third-level carriers that is presently before government now and will be considered by government within the next two weeks to a month. I would hope within two weeks. That would be the subsidy which is now of course, being ?aid to -, C? ·J I '-' ~ IJ

December 5, 1974, Tape 1907, Page 2 -- apb Labrador Airways and the other two third-level carriers, Gander Aviation and Newfoundland Air Transport. MR. MARTIN: -------- Supplementary to that, Mr. Speaker: Is the honourable minister aware that with the closing of the navigation season for surface carriers that the whole question of subsidization now has a direct bearin~ upon whether or not the neople in Coastal Labrador will get, in fact, an air service? Is the minister aware of this?

MR. ~o_ll_S~-E~ Yes, we are aware of that and the naners are alreadv up and I have asked the Clerk of the Executive Council to get them out to the bodies involved, that would be Treasurv Board, the government services and the cabinet, as soon as nossible. So we 3hould hope that sometime before December 22, I know that is one date I have heard, but sometime within the · next two weeks I would hone a decision would be made. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North: - ----- -- MR. P.S.TllOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Could the minister inform this House if he recently met with the Dairymen's Association of the province? If he has met could he give us some progress of the discussions and if the provincial government have any olans to heln the dairymen within the near future? MR. __ S_P_EAKE~ The honourable Minister of Forestrv and Agriculture: HON. H.COLLl~~ (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Mr . Speaker, I presume the honourable member is referring to an i tern which anpeared in "The Dailv News·, this morning. Evidently he must he because there was an

article in ''The Daily News" which said that the Dairymen's Association are still trying to get a meeting with me. I received a letter from the Dairymen's Association this morning requesting such a meeting and that has been arranged now. MR. THOMS: For the information of the minister, the dairymen of the province have been in trouble for some time now. Also, could I ask the minister another question? During the oast season we have had numerous outbreaks in the forests as far as budworm is concerned in the spruce and (No, not the hemlock loaner) the case pear in the birch, in the hardwood stands in our province. 7624

December 5, 1974, Tape 1907, Page 3 -- anb This in some sections has been an epidemic and has done much damage. However, during the past couple of years we have had no spring throughout the Province - MR. SPEAKER: Order nlease! I have to interrupt the honourable member. He is making a speech. If he wishes to he more orecise with his question I shall certainly hear it. MR. _111.Q.MS: Pardon me, Mr. Sneaker. I had to

preamble a 1i ttle in order to 2et my facts strai2ht. Could the minister inform this Houge if his department is nlannin2 on carrving out any programmes of spraying next year to offset any such epidemic? MR. SPEAKER: --·~-- - The honourable Minister of Forestrv and Agriculture: MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there has been a report done bv the Federal Forestry Service. The report has been in our hands for about a couple of weeks. It is being analyzed by the officials in the department now.

One of the tragedies about the soraving prop,ramme is that we have been told bv the federal authorities that the existing cost-sharing arrangements for spraving across Canada will terminate at the end of March, 1975, which means that the province might have to go it alone. However, we have not really decided if we shall continue the spraving programme or not. Some people are of the opinion that mavbe a better approach might be to try and harvest the wood.

At any rate, the officials, federal and provincial, are now assessing the situation and just as soon as we have reached a decision I shall make it known to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage: MR. SIMMONS: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries: I am wondering if the minister could indicate to the House if any trawlers 7G2ti

Decem1l_er 5, 1974 Taoe 1908 have heen constructed or are under contract as a result of the trawler orogramme announced bv the government 1ust over a vear ago. MR. C~ Mr. Speaker, there have been a numher of trawlers constructed or that are under construction with government assistance over the last vear including three that are under construction for Fishery Products Limited and which - MR. NEARY: The boss is looking at you. MR. CROSHIE: I am goin~ to trv to perform well. Because the boss is rn-1 watching I do mv best to behave. Now there are three under construction. Is that right boss? AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) _liR~_ IR_QSBI~ Just a minute now. I would like to answer the question, Mr. Speaker. There are three under construction under the aegis of Trawler Fisherv Products Limited on which the government are guaranteeing fifty per cent of the lease oavments to assist Fisherv Products in expanding their trawler fleet. Fisherv Products L1mited, of course, is a comnanv that has had considerable assistance from government and the fishing industrv over the years. AN HON. MEMRF.R: (Inaudible) -------- ~--- MR. CROSBIE: To put it mildlv.

Of course it is a comnanv that has done a lot of work here in the fisherv. In connection with the remainder of the trawler nrogramme, as to whether government are going to proceed with a trawler fleet of its own and under what terms and conditions ancl when that nrogramme will start, that is a matter that has been under intensive review. A studv has been done in connection with that bv RPC, The Resource Planning Council. I think it is, of New r.runswick. The report is in our hanrls.

Action is deferred on that at the moment while we are dealing with the whole situation of the fishing industry: as to how fl:1r government are going to go, how many trawlers, how they will onerate, the kind of system thev will operate under. This will all be decided in the context that are going to be taken now in connection with the r.overnment of Canada at Ottawa to deal with the whole fishing industrv, MR._ S!.MMONS: Mr. Speaker, am I correct in interpreting what the minister has said as an indication that the announced programme of November 1q73_ 7620

December 5, 1974 Tape 1908 IB-2 which would provide seven trawlers this vear, seven in 1975 and six ir. 1976, that a freeze has been put on that programme or government have decided not to go ahead with the programme. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have never heard of any such programme of seven trawlers being built this year, seven next year - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: In the Throne Speech, back two years ago. MR. CROSBIE: Well, perhaps I was not listening closely enough.

Let this much be said about it, that the shipyard at Marystown where we would prefer to have our trawlers built, has been busy under the aegis of the honourable junior Member for Harbour Main, "Pickle Barrel ; who is chairman of the Board of Directors. It has also been busy with a progranone of constructing trawlers for other companies. When we commence our trawler construction programme, we want to have it done at Marystown. That is number one. Now, number two - it is quite obvious, Mr. Speaker, that any government must continually review circumstances before it proceeds with any intended course of action.

The circUI!lstances of the fishery of the last few months have dictated that we examine very carefully exactly what our programme is going to be and what the extent of the progrannne will be. That is being reviewed under current circumstances. The honourable gentleman does not need to worry about the trawler programme. MR. SIMMONS: Somebody had better worry about it. A supplementary - I am surprised beyond words, first of all, to hear the minister say he did not know anything about it. Everybody else did. It is in print right here. The whole progrannne was announced here over a year ago. MR.

SPEAKER~ Order, please! The honourable Member for Hermitage is proceeding to make a speech and not to ask a question. MR. SIMMONS: I cannot pass up the temptation to educate the boys over there a bit sometimes on this subject of - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Hermitage is out of order. I recognize the honourable Member for Labrador North. 7621

December 5, 1974 Tape 1908 IB-3 t_llk_ WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, it is 'lUite obvious that the "Whip" is out of the llouse and is not towing that group in line. I suggest that the Premier should get the "Whip" back into the House as,tain . Mr. Speaker, the question is to the Premier . Can the Prem.ier inform the House if construction will start on the Lower Churchill the spring, next spri ng of 1975? If not, when does he expect to have construction going?

Is it true that the statement: made by one of his cabinet ministers, that the power from Churchill Falls will not he delive red to the island, not before 1981? ?JR. CROSB1-E: quest ion . Mr . Speaker, a point of order on the last part of that MR. WOODWARD: Ther e is no poin t of order "John " . Sit down. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! 7628

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1909 Page 1 - MW MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman is referring the last part of his question to this alleged report. MR. WOODWARD: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries has risen on a point of order but I have yet to hear it because ~f the noise being made by the gentlemen to my right. MR. MOORES: To a point of order, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I will do the best I can to answer what was a very vague question, even made vaguer by the member looking all over the room. I was not sure who he was speaking to for awhile.

The fact is, as the Member for Labrador North well knows, Gull Island is of very major importance to this government. We are waiting, as has been pointed out on many occasions, a reply· from the federal government as to what their participation is going to be. As soon as we know that, we will start work immediately. As soon as that is, only then can we govern when the power will come to the island. I can assure the honourable member thisythat come to the Province of Newfoundland it will, nowhere else. MR. WOODWARD: I did not know. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing inform the House whether or not the subsidized rental units on Whiteway Street, Hoyles Avenue and various other parts of the city have been offered to the occupants for sale? HON. B. PF.CKFORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I made a phone call two days ago re~ating to that matter and I think that some of them have been offered now. Now I do not know the number or the individuals involved. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation are in the process of contacting these people to offer them to them first. 762~

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1909 Page 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the minister indicate to the House at what cost these apartments are heing 0ffered for sale to these people? If so, what interest rate ·dll the people be charged? MR. PECKFORD: I will have to take notice of that, Mr. Speaker and give you the information tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The thirty minutes of the question period have expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion No. 1. I think the debate on the last day was adjourned by the Hon. Member for St.

Barbe North Rnd I think he has some thirty-five minutes left to speak to this motion. MR. F. B. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, before I adjourned the debate last day, I was describing the reasons why we did not feel it necessary to increase the number of members in this Legislature by nine. Sir, I still maintain that we cannot, in all conscience, support such trivia as contained in this resolution, when there are so many other problems facing this province at the present time.

Sir, it has been estimated by some people that the increase in the number of seats will cost this province in the order of one-quarter of a million dollars, that is directly and indirectly through salaries, additional phone calls, office space, travel and what have you - one quarter of a million dollars, Sir. I submit to this honourable House, Sir, that this money could be better spent - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order please! All honourable gentleman will resume their places. The Ron~ Member for St. Barbe North has the floor. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I am somewhat incapacitated today with the flu and unlike the Premier I was able to drag myself here 7630

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1909 Page 3 so It(luld ask honourable members on the other side to do me the courtesy of l ettin g me be heard dur ing the rest of this debate. Sir, we submit on this side of the House that the money could be better used to improve the members' chanc es of representing the districts which they presently represent by increasing office space, staff, travel allowances and what have you in order that the present members can more adeouately represent their districts. Sir, even if tne goveTIU11ent 7631

December 5, 1974 Tape 19Hl PK - 1 had brought in a resolution which was identical to the final commission's reoort. We ,aould have to consider whether or not we would support it because of the increased administrative costs to the public and the fact that the government have not put this province in shape over the past three vears to stand such additional costs in order to suoport nine additional members in this House of Assembly. ~IR. M.AR SHALL : 0n anoint of order, ~r. Speaker, if I may. I am sorrv the honourahlP. memher has the flu but I have to rise on a point of order.

I would submit that the honourable memher is being irrelevant. The ciuestion hefore the House is the approving, with alterations,of the recommendations of. the 1~ewfoundland Electoral Districts Boundaries Cormj ssion, estahUshed hy Section (4) of the Electoral Boundaries Delimitation Act. Now ,-,hat the honourilble member is debating is really the increase of the seats from forty-two to fiftv-one in his nal!'t statements. MT{. F. ROPE: No, I am not. MR.

MAnSJlALL: This ,,,as a matter that has alrP.adv hP.Pn rlPrinPn hv thP House, dec1d1nP: unanimously, I might sav, and the honourable memher was one of the memhers who voted for jt, The nurpose of this resolution :!.s to consider thP adontion of or not of the recommendat1.ons of the commission spreading amc,ngst fiftv-one seats. Now I Jrnow that the honoura1'Je rnemrer as well as evervhodv else <vould wish to he relevant to the dehate itself because it is the only Pav in which the business of the House can he effjcientlv conducted.

T Pould say, Your Honour, that ohviouslv when the honourahle memher is discussing the matter of fifty-one seats as aP;ainst fortv-two, he is d:lscussl.nr; a TT1atter reallv which is irrelevant to the motion before the Chair, because it is a matter that has alreadv heP.n decided and I might sav hapnily with the concurrence of the opposition as well as the gover~ment. "1R. RORF.R'l'S: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that nothing could be more relevant to this debate than the comments which my honourable friend, the gentleman for St. Barhe ~lorth is making.

The resolution before the House, as the House Leader had to admit, is one which would approve a resolution that divides this province for the purpose of electing members to this House of Assembly into fifty-one districts. 7632

December 5, 1974 Tape 1910 P¥ - 2 Now I would suggest, Sir, it 1s entirely in order to say that an honourable gentleman does not pronose : to vote for this resolution because it provides for fifty-one districts. I would submit that, that is germane to the debate, the very heart of the debate.

Also I find it most amusing that after three or four days of debate this is when the honourable gentleman has to get in it and I submit to Your Honour, Sir, the real reason why the honourable gentleman raised this point of order was completely and utterly unspoken hut very real. vaybe he reali?.es that the government have made a terrible mistake. He is now trying to restrict debate and bring in a form of closure. MR, SPF.AKER. (STAGr.) · 0rder, please: I think in those matters time is of the essence and certainly the line of argument which is beinf. used by the M~mber for St.

Barbe North is relevant so far as other rlebate is concerned. If indeed the debating of the fifty-one members as onnosed to forty-two is irrelevant, it should have been brought up some time aj!o. At this point I do not think it would be right to cut him off from that line of thought. "Ul. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I might address a question to the Speaker, if I may. Is this time on points of order taken out of the time remaining for the thirty-five minutes. AN HON. MEl-'IIF.R : It is hypothetical. AN HON. MEMBER: It is not hypothetical. MP.. F. ROWE: Not at all. It is not a hypothetical question. ~.

SPF.AKn?.: That is a hypothetical phrase hut a very real nuestion. I think in cases such as this the discretion of the r.hair will allow the honourable member a couple of P.xtra minutes, and if that comes a matter of great discussion then I will have to give a formal ruling on it. 'ffi.. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sir, I was suggesting that this province is not in the financial shape to carrv the exnense of nine additional members. Sir, two sessi6ns ago, we supported the principle of redistribution.

We were naive enough to think that the government would by this time have grappled successfully with some of the major problems confronting this province s~ch as the high cost of living, the unemployment, the crisis in education, the crisis

necemher 5, 1974 Tane 1910 PK - 3 in the f isher:I es. the cdRis in the labour f.ield. what is ha1>penin~ in the Lower Churchill and ,;uch mundane things as water anrl seweral!e . S:lr, i n our opinion, the government have not successfullv coped with these nrohlems and, therefore, we do not think ther efore that the Hou!'.e of Assemblv should he increa11ed 1-y nine anrl the adding of additional burden on this province. Instead, ~ir, t he ~overnment have wasted million11 of dollars on GeorAe lJcLean' s various nro,1 ecttons and adverti idnl! gimmicl·s for various deoartments of r.overranent. 7634

December S, 1974. Tape 1911 RH - l MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! While the honourable member is going to be allowed a certain amount of latitude, I think that his latitude, well, as far as I can see bis latitude has turned into longitude, maybe. So I su?p;est the honourable member might be more relevant. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, because of what we consider being extravagance of the government and I am not able to give the examples because of the Speaker's ruling which I respect, we do not, Sir, support this particular resolution nor will we vote for it.

Sir, there is a more important reason why we cannot support this particular resolution because we consider it to be gerrymandering of the worst order. We are being asked to support, Sir, the tattered remnant of a commission report headed by the late Judge Higgins. Sir, members opposite may argue that we supported the bill originally. Well, Sir, that is complete hogwash. What we did support was the principle of debatin?. an impartial and a nonpartisan report from an impartial and nonpartisan commission.

Sir, it was a shock when we learned, when we discovered the hatchet job that the present administration did on that final report of the commission. Sir, I cannot understand why members opposite have the p;all to sug!!;est that we supported that mess that is drawn upon the map there at the present time. Sir, the government in introducing the original bill to set up the commission to draw up the electoral boundaries which I thought was a great reform was offering the equivalent of a bouquet of roses to Newfoundland and to this House as far as electoral boundary reform is concerned.

What they finally brinr in, Sir, in the form of this resolution is nothtnJ? but a wilted pansy as far as compartson with the or"iginal report is concerne~. Sir, the commission made a preliminary report and a commission held public hearings and they modified the report and this is only the proper thin!?. to do. They listened to the people. They heard representation from various parts of the Province. They modified their report, their boundaries and what does the government do, Sir? They disregard this democratic process altogether and they turn around and draw their own electoral boundaries.

Sir, the new electoral map, gerrymandered by the present administration 7635

Oecember 5, 1974. Tape 1911 R.H - 2 shoulcl have- ensured that the rural districts or the districts more reJr.ote from t he capital should not be discriminated ap.ainst as compared to the urban d:lst r lcts or the <tistricts · relatively close to the seat of ,aovernrnent.

However, Sir, if you look at this map, we can all witness it, t here is an alarmin11: tendancy in the resolution and on the man to make many rm;al or more remote districts lar,i,er than the quotient of approximatel y 10.nnn or 1n.20n, to make the more remote or more rural districts larp.er than the quotient and to make ur ban districts or districts close to go,,ernment less than the quotient, if you study that map carefully and the resolution carefully.

Sir, the ROverrunent did not allow any of the followinp. factos to influence their proposals. for example, on reo~raohicall,f size alone, rural districts are more difficult to represent in this Province . More remote districts are ~ore difficult to represent because of the difficu lty of time ancl expense of travel. The more remote and rural districts have less municipal Jtovernment, less ~overnmental orp.anizat i on and structures.

Therefore the member has to fill in the iap and the people in rural dj!<t r lcts of Newfoundland come to members 'for many more thin~s than they cln to me111hers servin p. urhan areas. ~ir, many rural districts have relatively small co1111Tiunities, 7630

December 5, 1974 Tape 1912 IB-1 COl!llllunities, St. Barbe North which is one of the second smallest districts in this province,has forty-three communities, three of which have local government. There are many other similar districts to this. Obviously the member's job is made more difficult but that is not the crucial question, the difficulty of the member's job. The crucial question is the fairness with the type of representation that these people can receive.

Sir, they also did not consider the factor that traditionally a rural member is called upon to perfonn more for the district than his counterparts in urban districts. Now, Sir, let us analyze the mess contained on that multicolored chart down in the corner of the Rouse of Assembly. Sir, if you take the ten St. John's urban districts; that is, Mount Scio, St. John's East, St. John's Centre, St. John's North, South and West, Mount Pearl, Pleasantville, Waterford-Kenmount and Kilbride, Sir, we see there that based on the statistics quoted by the honourable Leader of the Opposition, that six of the urban St.

John's districts are below the quotient and three are approximately equal to the quotient and one is above the quotient. The average population of the ten St. John's urban seats is 10,500. Sir, if you take the thirteen metro districts, St. John's districts; these are the ones I just mentioned above plus St. John's East Extern, plus Topsail, plus Harbour Main and Bell Island, metro St. John's, we see - AN HONOURJ,.BLE MEMBER: Harbour Main and Bell Island is metro St. John ' s? MR. F. ROWE: Metro St. John's, Sir. If you listen to the radio in the evenings this is considered to be metro St.

John's, the thirteen metro St. John's seats. We see, Sir, that St. John's East Extern - not metro St. John ' s - 11,900 people. Topsail, 12,624 people. Harbour Main, Bell Island, Mr. Speaker, 12,000. These three districts over 12,000 of all districts - if the honourable the Premier thinks these are rural districts, why are these the very districts of the thirteen that I have mentioned, that have a greater population than the ten I just mentioned above. MR. MOORES: I have no idea. 7637

December 5, 1974 Tape 1912 IB-2 MR. F. ROWE: That is exactly and precisely it, Hr. Speaker, the Premier has no idea except possibly a political idea. Sir, the average for these thtrteen St. John ' s !!etro seats is lrJ,900. I submit, ~r. Speaker, that these three that I have mentioned should be lower than the ten urban St. John 1 s seats that I just mentioned previously. Sir, of the twenty Avalon Peninsula seats - these are the ones that I have mentioned above , and Ferryland, Capes - St. Mary's, Placentia, Trinity. Carhonear, Harbour (;race and Port de Grave - the average is 9,284 people.

The South Coast rural districts, Sir, the average is 10,14 3 people. I am mentioning this for a particular reason, Mr. Speaker , if the honourable members opposite would note it - of the seven Trinity Bay. Bonavista Bay Districts, the average is 9,435 people. Of the four North East Coast Districts, the average is 9,971. Of the four North Coast Districts, }'r. Spea ker, that is Baie Verte, White Bay, St. Rarbe, Straits of Belle Isle and we will include the Humber Valley, the average is 11,407 people. I can exclude that particular district, Mr. Speaker. It seems relatively close to the Northern Peninsula.

It is at the base of it. So that is why it is included. I could have included it with the seven West Coast Districts which indeed I did and I find that the average ot the seven West Coast Districts is 10,359. Yet Gander, Sir, twenty minutes by flight, local government, concentrated population, has 9,399 and Grand Falls has 8,077. So, I will let my honourable colleague from Labrador deal with the Labrador seats. 7G3tj

December 5, 1974, Tape 1913, Page 1 -- apb if you look at this you will see that the seven west coast districts, the four northeast coast districts, the five south coast districts, urban St. John's and metro St. John's are about average. Below average are the Avalon Peninsula seats, the Trinity Bav-Bonavista Districts, Gander and Grand Falls. Above the average or the quotient are the north coast districts. Now, Sir, the government have failed comoletely.

If you look at the averages, Sir, of the categories that I have iust mentioned - just listen to the averages: West coast districts (I shall round them off) 10,300: the four north coast districts 11,300: the northeast coast districts approximately 10,000, Trinity Bay-Eonavista nire and a-half thousand, the south coast rural districts 10,000, the Avalon districts just over 9,000: metro St, John's 10,900: urban St. John's 10,500. Now, Sir, there are two things we should note here:

(1) There is a total and utter and complete disregard and failure hv this administration to take the tolerance factor into consideration. (That is the tolerance factor of plus or minus twenty-five per cent) in order to give the rural districts of this province fair and equal reoresentation. If anything, Sir, this tolerance factor of nlus or minus twenty-five per cent if, and I shall be quoting honourable members onnosite, if anvthinp, the rural districts in this orovince should be tending toward a population of 7,500.

The urban districts and the ones close to the caoital and the well-organized citv and towns should be close to 12,500. They totally disregarded it. That in itself is bad enough because the averages that I read out show that there was not anv dramatic nor substantial nor significant use of the tolerance factor in order to favour the rural districts. To make matters worse, Sir, the greatest deviation from the quotient, approximately 10,000, the greatest deviation from the quotient exists on the Great Northern Peninsula. As far as the 763~

Decemberb', 1974, Tape 1913, Page 2 -- apb Island part of the Province is concerned the most remote, distant, isolated and difficult part of the province to travel. Sir, in spite of the fact that the - PREmF:R MOORES: (Inaudible) MR. Q.ROWE: If the Premier were not out havinp; a smoke, Mr. Speaker, he would have heard me say that my colleague from Labrador will deal with Labrador since he knows more about Labrador than I do. ~~ ~~E~ You said that this was a remote area. MR. F.B.ROWE: I said, of the Island part of the Province. Again, if the honourable the Premier were listening, Mr.

Speaker - on the Island part of the Province, these are the districts that are the most remote areas. Isolated. MR. SIMMONS: Exnlain the difference between the island - MR. F.B.ROWE: Vet, Sir, we find that it is the area of the province which has the greatest average population. Baie Verte - White Bav 12,088: Straits of Belle Isle 11,617: St. Barbe (The new St.Barbe this will be) over 10,000. Sir, in a situation where we increase the number of seats in this legislature do you know what the honourable cabinet or government, Premier has done?

In increasinP. the number of seats in this province they have increased the size of these Northern Peninsula seats. What a remarkable thing to haopen, Sir. To increase the size of those three most remote districts and rural districts in our orovince while increasing the number of seats. Sir, the Northern Peninsula would have been better off if we did not have redistribution at all.

If we kept the same seats that we have at the present time, the forty-two seats that we have, and God knows we need redistribution at the present time on the basis of that, but, Sir, if we kept the present seats these Northern Peninsula seats, these rural, remote seats would be better represented than they will be under this redistribution bill. MR~S.!'._E:_A.KER: I wonder if the honourable member would mind me just interrupting. I have to infonn the House by four o'clock of what 7640

December 4, 1974, Tape 1913, . Page 3 -- apb questions will be on the late show today. There 1s only one the one raised by the honourable Member for Bell Island. Today's question period which will be debated by he and the honourable the Premier at five thirty this afternoon. Th-e honourable Member for St. Barbe North may continue. MR.__K.B.ROWE: Well, Mr. Speaker, you jumped in at a convenient time because I was windin~ up a point, and that is , if 7641

December 4, 1974, Tape 1914, Page 1 -- apb vou take the averages of the categories of districts that I have mentioned, you will not see any si~ificant deviation in the average population except, of all places, up on the Northern Peninsula.

This resolution, Sir, I submit, discriminates verv unfairly and brutally against the rural areas of this province, particularly the Great Northern Peninsula, It is a remarkable coincidence, Sir, that that particular part of the province hu heen reasonably Liberal and that they took one seat ID,1ay which means that one of the two sitting members of this side of the House has to go looking elsewhere. I submit, Sir, that that will be a problem for the honourable member for St. Barbe South in the future.

Now, Sir, the point that I am making is that the government did not make use of the tolerance factor of plus or minus twenty-five per cent, to give the rural areas of this province proper, fair, equitable and reasonable representation. In fact, thev have done the verv nnnosite in their gerrvmandering effort. Now, Sir, I want top.et at the principles of the honourablP the _government. This eovernment stood up in the House some two sessions ap.o and introduced a bill to set up a commission report, or commission to report on electoral boundaries. Thev were going to end gerrymanderinp, forever.

They accused the previous Liberal Administration of p.errvmanderinl? and this government was going to end it forever. I would like to give you some of the quotes, some of the statements made by the honourable the Minister of Justice and the honourable the Premier and the honourable the Deputy House Speaker, in connection with that particular resolution.

The honourable the Minister of Justice said that this was an historic occasion: ''Because it takes out of the hands of the government the responsibility for set tin~ boundaries.·• Sir, he even -conceded that many parliaments within the British Parliamentary System do not have this yet, that we were making history here. "It will take out of 7642

December 5, 1974, Tape 1914, Page 2 -- apb the hands of government the responsibilitv for setting electoral boundaries. We were naive enough to believe the Minister of Justice. How is the ~inister of Justice going to 1ustify what this government have done to that final report now? He also said, the honourable Minister of Justice, and I quote from volume II, No. 31 of Hansard, page 2344.

The honourable Minister of Justice: "I would suggest to this honourable House that no responsible minister and no responsible commission would tolerate nor would it be possible for there to be any change in anv report that comes from the col11!11ission. '' Mr.

Speaker, how is the honourable the Minister of Justice going to iustify that statement, now that the government have done the exact opposite of what he suggested? ''No responsible commission, no responsible minister would tolerate nor would it he possihle for there to be any change in anv report that comes from the corrrnission." Sir, the honourable the Leader of the Opposition d~monstrated that there have been thirty-one changes made in that final commission report. Again the honoura~le Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker.

"I would susi;gest that this legislation will convince the people of Newfoundland that we as a government and that we as a House of Assembly are determined once and for all to do away with any suggestions that there can be any gerrymandering in as far as electoral boundaries are concerned and voting patterns are concernerl. I would suggest that this legislature will convince the people that it will be impossible to gerrvmander in as far as electoral boundaries are concerned and voting patterns are concerned. 11 Mr. Speaker, the honourable the government have done the exact opposite.

The Premier has done the exact opposite in introducing this resolution. Sir, the Minister of Justice states, and I quote, "Rural Newfoundland still requires a p;reat deal of representation and a very high proportion of representation in this House. 11 Yet, they have increased the size of four of the most rural and remote seats on the Island part of our Province not to mention the Coast of Labrador, 7u43

December 5, 1974, Taoe 1914, Page 3 -- apb what thev call Eagle River. A small population but a formidable !!;eographical area which I am snre my honourable colleap.:ue from Labrador will deal with. The honourable the Deputv House Speaker, the ~ember for Port au Port, a~reed with members on this side of thP. House. As a matter of fact he spoke immediatelv followinl! mvself on this oarticular occasion and he agreed that the ~ias should be in favour of Rural Newfoundland. These are the hononrahle member's words, Sir. He used Port au Port as an examnle and St. Rarhe North as an example.

He agreed that the popttlation should not he over-estimated for reasons given by the opposition memhers. Population should not be over-estimated. In other words, geo~raohical factors such as isolation, remoteness, travel difficulties, lack of local government should be emphasized not oopulation. The honourable member, Sir, stated categoricallv that a population bias would be an injustice.

Sir. this eovernment have come as close as they possibly can to making all the districts in this oro.vince equal to the quotient, no substantial variation used in the built in tolerances to favour the rural parts of this province. Then, Sir, we come to the honour ah le the l'ni.mier. All men of nrinciple. All men of princiole. "What we want to <lo is hrine in a redistribution bill that is fair, that is imoartial and that will do the .ioh for what it was set out to do and desir.ned to do. Sir, is that situation on the Northern Peninsula fair?

Is the redistrihution resolution that thev hrought in fair? ls it irnoartial? Having chanped thirty-one of the boun<laries set down by the redistribution commission, is that imoartial? Not on vour life, Sir. Ap,ain, Sir, the Premier: "The past 11;overnrnent, Sir, could be blamed I think for some legitimacv of gerrvmandering seats which I do not think should ever happen again in this nrovince. '' That is what the honourable the Premier s~id. How can the Premier get up? What 7644

December 4, 1974, Tape 1915, Page 1 -- apb kind of a skin does the honourable Premier have to have? How thick is it? For him to get up and introduce this resolution after saying: "Gerrymandering seats which I do not think should ever happen again in this province." It is an incredi1'le statement. taking in view what was brought into this House a few days ago.

The honourable the Premier again, Sir: "The intent and I give this on the word on the government (almost religious,Sir) is to have fair representation with all the factors taken into consideration and that in its oresent state I think it is a good bill." That is what the Premier said, Sir. In closing the debate the honourable the Minister of Justice, Mr.

Speaker, said that it is the orinciple of this bill and it is the view of the government that the formula and the procedures set forth in this is by far the most nonpartisan way of oroviding that the appointment of a commission, that will be totally free of any political pressures and political partisanship. Sir, can vou believe that? MR. HICKMAN: The honourable the Minister of Justice is perfectly correct. It is difficult to believe, it is hard to believe, it is hard to stomach, it is nauseating. How the honourable the Minister of Justice - MR. _ _§~_~AKER: Order please!

I would just like to remind the honourable member that he has approximately four or five minutes left to finish uo. MR. F.B.ROWE: ---- -- ---- Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is unbelieva~le that having made these statements the honourable Minister of Justice cannot get up in this House and vote against this resolution. He has r,o other choice, Mr. Speaker, but to get uo and vote against this resolution as does the Premier. He may see fit to change his mind in the course of this debate.

Another quote from the Minister of Justice: "Any resolution cominp. before this House which would seek in anyway" (Listen to this, Mr. Speak.er) "Any resolution coming before this House which would seek in any way to change the commission report would, 7645

December 5, 1974. RH - 1 I suggest have to be on verv sound and valid grounds indeed. It is most unlikely that there will ever be a resolution cominp before this House other than one to adopt the report. What .l'arbape ! What hvpocrisy, Sir'. Tt is most unlikely that there will ever be a resolution cominr. before this House other than one to adopt the report. They make thirty-one changes, perrymanderinP, discrimination against rural Newfoundland hut it is significant that followinp the passinp of the resolution by the House the povernrnent is then ohlipated to bring in a bill implementing such a resolution.

Sir. in other words the government had committed itself to complete adoption of the final report of that commission. That is what the povernment did, Sir, through the voice of the honourahle ~inister of Justice, the voice of the Hon. tli.e Premjer and the voice of the Deputy Housf' Speaker. Now, Sir, in the government's effort to gerrvmander, thev have done ruraj Newfoundland a disservice. They have discriminated ap.ainst them, against the rural districts of this Province. Sir, I would suhmit, I am going to close on a point of order if that is in order. I am goinp: to close on a point of order.

I am not trying to use the trick, Sir, to extend my speech beyond the two or three minutes at my disposal but I am p.oinp. to close my speech on a point of order.

That is, Sir, because of the documentation I 1ust orovided by way of quotes from Hansard, quotes mnde bv the Hon. thee Premier and the honourable the Minister of Justice and the honourable the DePuty Speaker, because of these statements it is obvious, Sir, that thev had mislead and deceived this honourable House and that thev should be suspended from this House or asked for their resignations nr at least to retract these statements that they originally made in introducing the bill to set up the commission. Sir, I raise that as a point of order and I ask Your Honour to rule on it. MR.

SPEAKER: Well, I feel that it is not really a point of order and am sure it is a matter of opinion that the honourable memher for St. Harbe Nortr has with regards to the matter which he just finished debatinP,. The honourable member for Hermitage. 764b

December 5, 1974. Tape 1916 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Could we have a quorum call, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: Will the clerk count the House, please? 7641

December 5, 1q74 Tane 1917 PK - l ' IR. SPEAKER: There is a quorum. MR. MAPSFALL: ~r. Sneaker, on a point of order. The honourable the Memher for Fennitap.e called a quorum. at the time he called the quorum it was discernib .l e quite obvious! v. :ln the House, that there was a ouorum nresent.

I would suhm1 t to Your Honour that when a cmorum is called in future that the count be!!:ins after the quorum has been called, and vou know it is making a rather charade of the Fouse of Assemhlv really, if they have four or five on the other side of the Fouse and there are ten or twelve over here, one less than a quorum which is usuallv·the case, and a quorum is actuallv called because otherwise somebody can really nut the House of Assembly in the state of chaos or chaos, whichever word you particularlv wish to use - in that quorums can he called from the point of view of nuisance value when there are actuallv thirty peonle in their seats, So in futurf' T •-mule\ suh~i t to vour Honour that when a quorum is called that tl-:r.re should he less than fourteen in the House at the particular ti.me hefore the bells are rung. ''R.

SPEAK!"~: ---- - --- "'he honourable 'femher for Herm:ftage. nn anoint of order, ~r. Speaker. At the time I reouested a ouorum. made a ouorum call I counted the members on the ,pposite sjde, there 1,1 ere six members at their own benches and there were, five on this side, that in my math makes eleven. MR. SPF.AKFP.: "'he honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. RO'!lF.PTS, To that point of order, Sir. ~r.

Speaker, the honourarle -------- House I.eader ha~ I suhmit been more insolent to thf' ~ne<1ker than I would have conceived nosi,,11--J f' ~-.ihF>n he nroceederl to surgF>iat to Your Fon our that Your Honour should follow a certain nroccdure with resnect to the situation which results when a memher call" a nuorum. The s1.tuatjon is clearlv set forth, Sir, in rules numher three and four, and nohody should know hetter than the honourable House Leader who is responsihle for hrin?in? in these chan2e in the rules.

This is not one of the one" which brought closure hut if the honourable gentleman who restricted the debate. the rules are auite clear. Your Honour has always followed the rules quite scrunulously, and the rules were followed in this case here. The House Leader 1 s being insolent as well as bein~ inaccurate and even for him that 7648

necember 5, 1974 'J'aoe 1917 PI: - 2 is a new high or a new low, whichever way one wishes to look unon i.t. MR. MARSHALL: Well, Your Honour, if I may, I mean I would not want Your Honour to really think that I was being insolent to Your Honour hecause it would be completely and absolutely farthest fro~ mv intentions, Your Honour. J\ut, you know, the fact of the matter remains on this whole business of quorums in any House, such as the House of Commons, it is cons:fderetl to be really insolent to all members that a cuorum, a reflection. Jet us out it that wav, on all members when a quorum is called.

Phat I am really doing is pointing this out and also serving notice on the opposition that when such davs as or:fvate members occur for instance, :tf they wish to call ouorums as thev have done in the past the government are really going to look at the oopos:ltion also to fonn a ouorum hecause they are a part of the comnlement of this House ~swell ~s the nPnnlP nn thP government side as well. AN HON'. ~ER : Hear! Hear! '1R.

SPEAKFR: With respect to the noint of order rn:lsed during a previous session ,I thin1': I sa:ld that I felt there was a little, nerhaps not um>arliamentarv but honourable members mak:fng a quorum call is really a nuisance - A quorum call perhaps should he at the discretion of the Sneaker to judge if. that is to be so or not. However the rule is ouite clear with regards to the ouorum.

The new quorum rules state that when the SpeakP.r I s attention has been ilirected to the fact that there is not a quorum oresent, the Sneaker should cause the hells to he rung and should cause the count to commence when three m:fnutes have elaosed after the ringinP, of the hells. It goes on to say a fer,• other things. I think there is no doubt about the procedure and I feel that is what was done a few moments ago. The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR.

NF.ARY: Sir, hefore I commence my few remarks in connection with this resolution before the Rouse, I wonder if the nage would distr:fbute these figures that I have como:lled over the last few davs to the members on either side of the House, both on the government benches - AN HO~' . :'-fEMBER: Inaudible. 7649

~ecernher S, 1974 Taoe 1°17 PK - 1 ),flt. NF.ARY: No, Stat:lsti .cs Canada heloPd me - J\nrl on mv own ,sirlt>. of the House. There are enoui?h cooies there.. '-ir. for a ll t~e memhers of t he House. Tf the member s are not in t hei r seats nerhaos the na~e woulrl lav the copies of the i::tatenent on their des1's. T have i::e.nt coniP.s of this statement, Sir. which 1 consider to ~P. verv imoortant, to t he ~emhers of the press. mode.sty that the nress if thev T woultl SUR~est, " r. :::peal:er. i.n all

December 5, 1974 Tape 1918 IB-1 see fit could really do the people of this province a service by publishing the whole statement as is. ~OURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Of course, it will. This is the purpose of the whole thing. }-Ir. Speaker, the member asked whether this would be relevant to the debate.

Well, Sir,in order for me to demonstrate the outright immorality of this resolution, Sir, which would burden the taxpayers of this already over-governed province, with having to cough up hundreds of thousands of more of their hard earned dollars to provide nine more part-time provincial politicians with personal financial subsidies, Sir, to their businesses that they run downtown - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hitting below the belt. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I am not hitting below the belt. This statement is distributed, Mr. Speaker, to members of the government benches and also to my own colleagues here.

That should give honourable members sitting to Your Honour's left, on the government benches, second thoughts before committing the provincial treasury to a hugh additional annual expense at the very time, Hr. Speaker, when goverI1J11ents all over North America, as a matter of fact, governments all over the free world, are fighting a war on inflation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: I thought it was in the Eastern World they were fighting a war now. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I can only speak of the free world.

They bring in this resolution, Sir, to put another nine members on the government payroll right at a time when the free world in the war on inflation, Mr. Speaker, is attempting to eliminate every unnecessary expense they possibly can. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Sorry, my hand is off. HR . MARSHALL: Inaudible. NR. NF.ARY: Could I get some water, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker, in their haste to use their big majority to ram this resolution through the House, they have chosen to completely ignore the report of the royal cmmnission that was established to set the boundaries 7651

December 5, 1974 Tape 1918 IB-2 ancl t he new electo r a l districts. That , Mr. Speaker. may hP.ve backfired . It is not t he first time. Sir, that a gover nment , in their arro Ranc e, gerrymandered t he electoral boundaries, the distd.ct boundaries in t h is province aud i.t hackfired. People are pretty well-informed · today, Sir. very well-infonned. They know preci sel y . the people of this province , know precisely what is .goin !I. on, $ir . MR. F. ROl·!E: There is not a quorum i n t he House, ,'fr. Speaker . 765L

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1919 Page 1 - MW MR. SPEAKER ( ~ - Stagg): Order please! Honourable gentlemen seem to think that while they are waiting for a quorum to be established that normal conversations can be carried on. This is not so. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): We have up to three minutes. My

interpretation of the rules is that when a quorum is present, I will declare it so, if it happens before three minutes. We have a quorum. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I never cease, Mr. Speaker, to be amazed at the weakness of some of the arguments that are put forward hy honourable gentlemen on the government sirle of the House, Sir. I never cease to be amazed, especially, Sir, statements that are made by honourable and learned gentlemen. I can understand, Sir, the farmers on the government benches not being able to carry on a high-level debate in this House. We saw an example of that yesterday afternoon.

Sir, you would expect, at least, some common sense, Sir, and some logic from honourable and learned members of the House. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, in my fourteen years in this honourable House that I have heard so many foolish points that were raised by the Minister of Mines and Energy, the member for Placentia West, who came out and said, Mr. Speaker, without a grin on his face, poker face, straight face, "Oh, we need another nine members in this honourable House; we need another ten districts so we can give better service to the people of this province." Mr.

Speaker, I think he was only echoing or parrotting what the Premier had already said when he was stood over there like a schoolmaster, with his little silver pointer in his hand, pointing to this monstrosity we.have down here in the corner. My 7653

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1919 Page 2 colleague reminds me that the Premier does not even have a probationary licence. He was only parrot ting, Sir, Phat his master had said, when the Premier introduced this bill. "We need another nine members to give better service to the people of this province." Sir, I say what nonsense. We have forty-two members in thi~ honourahle House now, Sir, cluttering up the eighth floor, with only about twenty-five or thirty per cent of them giving service to the people of this province. I can name, Mr.

Speaker I could start down in the far end there and I could go right down to the rail and I could tell you, Mr. Speaker, every member and every minister who earns his keep. AN HON .MEMBER: Name them. MR. NEARY: ----- No, I will not name them. If I wanted to, I could. The people know. The people will name them in the next election. MR. CROSBIE:' (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The point I am IT\aking, Sir, is tr, explode the argument of needing fifty-one members, Sir. We have forty-two now and they are not doing their job.

Most of the members, Sir, on the government benches, well not most of them, but a goodly number of the mPmbers merely come up to Confederation Building to nic~ up their pay cheque and then go down and run their offices downtm.rn. Does the honourable Premier and the Minister of Mines and Energy call that service to their constituents, to their people? Rir,ht here, Sir, in our offices, (You talk about increasing it to fifty-one) we do not have any space here now. The place is cluttered up. Over here, Sir, there are seven of us using one office and the telephones (We have four lines in that office, Sir) never stop.

The mailboy down in the mail room never stops coming into our office with mail. Do you know where the phone calls, the mail and the telegrams are coming from, Sir? They are coming from districts that are represented by some of the hnnourable members on the other side of the House, including ministers, Sir. 7654

December S, 1974 Tape no. 1919 Page 3 MR. CROS_BlE: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: What they should do is send us over their salaries. We are trying to do their work fo r them. They are not even do1ng what they have been elected to do now, Sir, and they want to add another nine of their buddies . Put them on the payrol l, have them come up and have their offices and their bus in.esses downtown subsidized 'by t he poor old - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . }!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this resolution, Sir, and this administration, as the honourable Premier knows, have done a lot of 7650

December S, 1974 Ta-pe 192() RH - 1 unpooular thinFs. The Pre~ier seems to be very concerned, Mr . Speaker, ahout the fact that his government does not have a good image and he has been moaning and groanin? about that for the last two or three weeks. Well, Sir, I would say they are in their final death throes, the last gasp when the Premier start s complaining about the fact that the people, •·oh, we do not get credit from the people for what we are doing." Well, they have not done anythinp. Sir, that means that the administration is drawinP its last breath. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. - ---- ------- MR.

SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! I am sure the honourable member's comments are interesting and relevant to certain topics but not this one. I suggest the honourable member p.et on to debating the resolution. MR. NEARY: :fr. Speaker, Your Honour will see that it is relevant when I get to the point. The Tory is a faded image like Wick Collins. The point that I am making here, :1r.

Speaker, is that this whole rush to get this resolution through the House is designed, Sir, for one thinp Rr~ fr r,ne thin~ only, to get it out of the way so that the Hon . the Premier can go down to Government House in his r:as guzzlina cadillac, dissolve the House, give the Lieutenant-{;overnor the first opnortunitv, the new Lieutenant-Governor - AN HONOUl'tABLE MEMRER: Inaudible. - - - MR. NEARY: certainly do want it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. :-!EARY: I am not complaining. No, I am coming to that.

Give the new Lieutenant~overnor down there, Sir, an opportunity to dissolve the House and have a general election. That is why there is such a burn · to push this bill through. We saw the other night the Minister of Fisheries Sir, over at the University, tip his hand when he told us that we are in for a nretty rough year next year, Listen to the last . paragraph. The Minister of Fisheries - listen to what he said, Mr. Speaker: In conclusion he doubted ,Jhether society in the western world would survive the next fifteen or twenty years. Was the man drunk? Was he high on drugs? 7650

December 5, 1974. Tape 1920 RH - 2 ~- CRO~BIE: Look, I mean I am going to have to take an hour sometime to deal with this thing. I can see that. Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I spoke for twenty-five or thirty minutes to a group of students at Memorial and then answered questions for another forty or fifty minutes on many diverse topics, all of which has gotten confused in that write up in the Daily News. I have not bothered to bring it up as a point of privilege and so on because it is not worth doing. The honourable gentleman opposite keeps quoting these foolish remarks which T never made.

Now in actual fact what I said and I had to !!O into a lot of detail to really explain this properly but anyway I ended up saying that it makes you wonder whether the democratic system in the western world is goin,' to survive the next fifteen or twenty years, after discussing all this business of inflation and so on and so forth. You see, not what was ouoted in the paper at all. So I would just ask mv honourable friend "Accept 'me' word for it. I am incorrectly quoted. " I can take the time of the House or a half an hour or so to straighten it all out if he really wants to. MR. NEM.Y: ~r.

Speaker, I accept the minister's explanation but, Sir, all he has done in his explanation is add fuel to the fire, Sir. Obviously the minister is frustrated and confused. He doubts very much that democracy is going to survive for another fifteen or twenty years. It is all based, his whole opinion, Sir, is based on what is happenin!! in Newfoundland. The roof is falling right down around our ears. The minister thinks because the Tory administration have not been able to cope with the problems in NP.wfoundland, Sir, that democratic government is finished. Mr. Speaker, - ~~s~~ (Stagg): Order, please!

The honourable member promised to make the points relevant. He has not done so. There is a

section under the rules which should only be invoked after extreme provocation and the honourable member's attention having been drawn to it a number of times where needless repetition or irrelevance 7657

December 5, 1974, Tape 1921, Pagel -- apb can he ruled upon by the Chair. I am sure that the honourable member does not want that and the Chair certainlv does not want it. If the honourable member has points to make which are relevant. I suggest he do so. MR. NEARY: It is based on some of the statements the minister made, Sir, about our financial condition. Can we afford nine more members in this honourable House? ~ _H_Q_N_._ ~E~ER: That is the question. MR. NEARY: That is the question, Sir. The minister savs no and I agree with him. Well, Mr.

Speaker. no matter what I sav or do here todav honourable 11;entlemen on the government sicle of the House. Sir. are dead set on gouging another three or four hun<lred thousan<l dollars a vear out of the orovincial taxpayer. Hould it not he better, MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: It does not make anv difference what thev are, thev are unnecessarv anvway. AN HON. MEMBER: ----- Especially P.c. 's. MR. NEARY: Especially, Sir, if you are sitting on the Torv side of the House and the government side. Mr.

Sneaker, woul<l it not he better if the government were to take this sum of monev that will be necessary to nrovide soace and salaries (We shall see who is P.oing on welfare after the next election) AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.NEARY: Yes, it would he a P.ood idea. They could use it over there. If the honourable the Premier visited some of these houses and saw how neople are forced to live he would not be kicking up such a fuss about welfare on Bell Tsland or in any other community. Over in his own riding - MR.

SPEAKER (Sta~ Certainly the honourable member is not totallv guilty on his own in the irrelevant debate that has transoired in the last couple of minutes. I suggest that the timelv intervention of the Chair is necessary so that honourable members can discuss the thinP.s that are relevant, so the Chair has intervened. 7658

December 5, 1974, Tape 1921, Page 2 -- apb MR. N~ARY: Mr.. Speaker., it would be far better if the government made a decision to use this two or three or four hundred thousand dollars, whatever it is going to cost for another ten districts or another nine members in the House, use this sum, Sir, to subsidize or pay for totally, for municipal councils in incorporated municipalities, to pay councillors throughout this province. That is the level of government that is closest to the people, Mr.

Speaker, rather than providing another fourteen thousand for annual subsidies to add another covey of lawyers to this honourable Rouse, Sir, who will only go out make one pre-election visit to their district and then come into the House, draw their fourteen thousand dollars and go dawn and run their offices downtown. Is that what they call improved representation? That is what we heve now, Sir. If we wanted to improve ourselves maybe a little self­ discipllne might be worth-while.

You do not have to spend another three of four hundred thousand dollars of the truq,ayers money to improve your service to the people of this province. Get out now and do the job you are supposed to be doing. So you know, Mr. Speaker, there are members in this honourable House who only set their foot in their district once a year since they have been elected, three years ago? AN HON. MEMBER: That is a serious charge. MR. NEARY: It is a serious charge but it is true. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Who? Who? Who? MR. NEARY: They send out their executive assistants, their flunkies. AN HON. MEMBER: Who? Name them. ---------- MR.

NEARY: Yes, I could name them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Name them. Who? That is a very serious charge. MR. NEARY: What does the minister know about serious charges? ------ MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) - --- - - MR. NEARY: Irresponsible maw mouth. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order olease! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you will note - !:!!l_._J,_l'.._~R (Stagg): Order please! Order please! 7659

December 5, 1974, Tape 1921, Page 3 -- apb I am not sure if the expression used bv the honourab l e member is oarli.amentary ot: not. It certainly is not a familiar one to the Chair . l suggest that all honourable mE1mbers observe t he courtes i t-s that should he afforded anv me~ber who has the f loor. Of course the memher who has the floot: has a duty to make his remarks relevant and not provocative since that will evoke responses. MR. _Nl:_ARY: Mr. Speaker , If you reallv iet me in full-fliltht - they are reall v smart on the other side of the !:louse.

Sir. you will note from the f irst column o f the fi2ures and r mi t:ht mention, Mr. Soeaker, at the outset ( I would l ike to draw members' attention to the note at the too ) 7660

December 5, 197 4 Tape 1922 IB-1 These figures that I have, Sir, members' remuneration, are basic. They do not include things like car mileage, representation amounts and that sort of thing, executi1~ ~ssistants or anything like that, Sir. This is purely basic. It does not include Gerry Korhai or George McLean or Newfoundland Information Services, Sir.

If the Premier wanted an investigatjon in this province, he is so bitter, the Premier is so bitter and so concerned about his image and not getting credit, he should investigate Newfoundland Information Services and see what they have been doinp; for the last two or three years. MR. SPI;_AKER (Stag..8.1.£ Order, please! I have not kept count but I think this is the fifth occasion on which I have interrupted the honourable member. 1".R • NEARY : I have the right to he heard in silence, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): The honourable member has the right to be heard in silence.

He has the duty to make relevant debate or relevant comments. The honourable member has been abusing that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask Your Honour to strictly enforce the rule of when a member is speaking, that he be heard in silence, Sir. That is why, Sir, I am being - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order, please! The only weapon that the Speaker has to enforce the rule that people be heard in silence is to request it. There are no punitive measures that the Chair has with the exception of expelling people from the House which should only be done in very exceptional circumstances.

If the honourable member makes relevant debate, I am sure that any interruptions will be few and far between. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I started to explain to the House that these figures are by no means complete, Sir. They are not all inclusive. They just include the basic salary. That is expenses and sessional indemnity. Members will note, Mr. Speaker, from the first column of figures that this Newfoundland of ours has the lowest percentage of population over nineteen years of age which is one year more, as members know, one year more than the voting age. For most of these 7661

December 5, 1974 Tape 1922 IB-2 people, Hr. Speaker, in that age category - I might point out for the information of members, the reason it had to - !·1r. Speaker, I cannot hear myself talking down here. Sir, we are not do~m in the Bellmont Tavern somewhere. This is the House of Assembly. I think the honourable member's point is certainly correct. He is attempting to make relevant debate, which has been requested of him on a m.miber of occasions. Honourable members to my left have been speaking in tones that are by no means monotone. They are not low. I can hear them. Certainly it is very confusing.

I ask honourable members to my left if they would observe that rule which is their duty to observe, that the honourable member, who has the floor, be heard in silence, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the reason I had to use the percentage of population over nineteen years of age is because there are no figures available from Statistics Canada for the percentage of the population over eighteen years of age. They do it in groups of five years. So, I had to use nineteen years of age which is one year more than the voting age in Newfoundland at the present time. So, this is the age, Mr.

Speaker, when most of the young people make their initial entry into the work force and become taxpayers. They then enjoy taxpaying status. Now, you will note, Mr. Speaker, that we here in Newfoundland have the smallest percentage of taxpayers and voters of all the provinces. We have the smallest number of all the provinces Al"l' HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. ~1R. NEARY: Smallest, Sir. That is twice I have said it. Do I have to repeat it a third time? We in Newfoundland, Sir, have the smallest percentage of taxpayers and voters of all the provinces including Prince Edward Island. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. NEARY: From Statistics Canada. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Now, hold on, I am coming to that. This simply means, Mr. 766l

December 5, 1974 Tape 1922 IB-3 Speaker, that the taxpayers we have will also have to support more dependants than in any other province and that in times of inflation, Your Honour, as every member of this House 7663

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1923 Page 1 - 111w should realize by now that in times of inflationary pressure, Sir, this makes the burden more difficult for our working heads of families in this province. Further, Mr.

Speaker, because we lead all provinces in social assistance recipients, this (I understand, Sir, that this year there has been a drastic increase of twenty-five per centJas compared with a year agoJ in the number of recipients receiving social assistance in this province) thin, red line of employed, Sir, also has to contribute to the support of those who are forced into unemployment through the failure of the present government to develop our natural resources, Sir, and attract new industries, and their refusal, Mr.

Speaker, to discuss the curse of high unemployment during this current sitting of the House of Assembly. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are now getting into a debate of the financial situation of the provj_nce j_n which we were plunged by the previous administration. The fact of the matter is that Your Honour, I know, has already ruled with respect to the relevancy of the fifty-one Eeats. The resolution under debate is one with respect to the alignment of boundaries and the acceptance of the commission's report. Fifty-one seats were already contemplated by the act under consideration.

I would submit to Your Honour that certainly the honourable member is being irrelevant. With respect to his continuous references to the fity-one seats, he is now getting into the realm of unnecessary repetition, which is not in order by the rules. Mr.

Speaker, I feel that the honourable member could contribute much more to the debate if he would get to the very gist of the resolution itself, that is the boundaries rather than engage in an irrelevant debate upon the financial conditions of the province and secondly, unnecessary repetition, repeating over and over again, with respect to the fifty-one seats which is not really an issue at this particular stage. 7664

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1923 Page 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,that is the issue, Sir, and I am speaking to a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: I am not finished, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (~fr. Stagg): Order please: The Hon. House Leader is making a point of order. It is rather lengthy and I would suggest that he make his point within the next thirty seconds or so. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had already made it. "Unnecessary repetition and irreleva~cy on the part of the ~!ember for Bell Island." I will now give way and allow him the courtesy to speak.

I will not interrupt him in the same manner as he did myself. MR. NEARY: Mr. Sneaker, I can tell my the smile on Your Honour's face that Your Honour recognizes the fact that that is not a point of order, Sir. That is just a stalling and delaying tactic. My remarks, Sir, are relevant. We are talking about changing the electoral houndaries to add another ten districts, Sir, to the House and an additional nine members, Sir. I am completely on target.

I submit, Sir, to Your Honour that Your Honour not tolerate these foolish points of order that are only meant to use up the time because the honourable members know that I only have forty-five minutes in which to speak. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.Stkgg): Well it is the same point that was brought up earlier and that is the matter of relevance of this whole debate. Certainly, many speakers have. been given great leeway in debating it. It is not an unimportant matter. If a ruling was to be made, it should have been made earlier.

I think now that it wonld be unjust to severely restrict the scope of the honourable member's debate, although the honourable member certainly appears to want to expand upon the already expanded terms of reference we established earlier. 7665

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1923 Page 3 _MR. NEARY': Mr. Speaker, Your Honour will appreciate the fact that there is no other way, Sir, you can talk about adding ten seats or -ten districts to the House, increasing it by nine members, without talking about cost. It is going to cost the tp:payers another $300,000 or $400,000. How foo1ish is the Minist.er without Portfolio! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Substanti .ate it? I will substantiate it. Mr. Speaker, column (2), I ~tould like to draw the honourable members' attention to colum (2), Mr. Speaker, which should give every melllber of this honourable 766ti

December 5, 1974. Tape 1924 RH - 1 House, Sir, who is mentally aware and is capable of common sense. It should give every member, Sir, food for thought, further food for consideration. As I said in the beginning, Sir, do we need 1l!Ore members in this already overcrowded House when Ontario, Mr. Speaker, with nearly twenty times our population has less than the number of MHAs,or as they call them in Ontario, Mr. Speaker, MLAs-- AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: That is what they do. In Ontario they call them members of the Legislat:!.ve Assembly, not members of the House of Assembly.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NF..ARY: Do we need more members, Sir, in this overcrowded House when over in Ontario they have a less number of members than we do. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: "Mostly Tories. MR. NEARY: Mostly Tories. They will not be after the next election. Mr. Speaker, do we need fifty-one members to add to the congestion here in Confederation Building when Nova Scotia's forty-six members, Sir, adequately represent a voting population five times ours and they are mostly Liberal. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Ah! Well I can come to that too. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: No, two wrongs do not make a ri~ht. Column three, Sir; members will be interested in this particular item. Members Basic Remuneration, Column three. I will pass over this briefly, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The members in parenthesis, I might say, Sir, represent the sessional pay in order of acceptability to the electorate. The most acceptable here I presume, Mr. Speaker, would be the provinces with the lowest cost per member.

So we in the Province of Newfoundland, Sir, you can look at column five there with almost the lowest per capita income in the whole of Canada, the second lowest per capita income in the country. Do you know what, Mr. Speaker? We pay ourselves the highest sessional indemnities and we have the nerve, 7667

December 5, 1974. Tape 1924 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is not corre~t. MR. NEARY: That is correct, Sir. Ai.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I will explain that later on. We have the nerve, Sir, to contemplate a bill. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He was one of the ones who insisted on it. MR. NEARY: 1 was not one of ones whc insisted on it, Sir. I had no say in it. MR. CROSBIE: He came over across behind the Speaker's Chair a dozen times looking for more money. MR. NEARY: That is a terminolo~ical inaptitude and the minister should anolo~ize. That is not true. That is not the case.

I never asked a Crosbie for anything in my life and I hope I will never have to. I hope I will never have to, Sir. 'ffi. CROSllIE: Inaudihle. Order, please: T think the honourable member's rights arf' bein~ abused. He has a right to be heard in silence and honourable members to my left are certainly not observing that rule. I sug?est that it he ob:serverl. ~IR._:':l .. EARY: \fr. Sneaker, we have already the hi1d1est sessional inrlemnities in the whole of Canada. 1''e have the nerve to comternplate a bill that wi.11 add nine more to feed at the already sadly depleted public trough. "IR. CROEBIE: Tnaudible. "ffi..

NEA~Y: "Ir. Speaker, if we r,o ahead with this resolution, every member, Sir, everv member, and I sav this in all sincerity, every member votinp in favour of it should he sent to the Waterford Hosni tal under !!;rave suspid .on, Sir, of imnairPd f:inancini;-:, not imr>aired driving, impairerl financin l' . Now, '1r. SneRker, the killer column, the fourth one from the left and the second from the ri ?ht, that headed "Cost of members per thousand population over nineteen., . AN RONOUFARLE MEMBER: Tnaudible. "!R. NF.ARY: Almost "16,.,. u I ·· Oo

December 5, 1974 Tape 1925 IB-1 needless to say, Mr. Speaker, in this particular column, the figures again in parenthesis, Sir, represent their acceptability to the voters and taxpayers. Even our present figures put us right at the bottom of the list exceeded, Mr. Speaker, in acceptability only by the hopeless case that the honourable Ninister of Fisheries referred to of Little Prince Edward Island which, llr. Speaker, even with its pittance of $G,OOO a member is so far over manned that the sessional indemnities per 1,000 at voting age works out to nearly $3,000. MR.

CROSBIE: Will the hon. member permit a question? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable minister will have a chance to speak in the House and I have got the five thirty late show coming up. I hope, Xr. Speaker, that the honourable minister will speak in this debate. When the honourable minister was over on this side of the House we heard so much bellyaching and so much chaw about gerrymandering - MR. CROSBIE: Who did? I never did. 1'1R. }nJRPHY : He was a party to it . ~~~~EARY:_ Oh ves, the honourable minister did, Sir, and the Minister of Justice who had been converted. They have all been converted now.

Now, Sir, gerrymandering is okay now that they are over on the gove.rfll!lent side of the House, over uith the Tories. They have been converted. I heard the Minister of Social Services oh his hoofs in this honourable House talking about gerrymandering. What we should be asking ourselves, Sir, in this province is what can we do? l!R. CROSBIE: You could retire. - ··- - -- ~!R. NEARY: Ah. would they not love that, Hr. Speaker. Would they not love it. They tried to get me in the courts. They tried to get me with a judicial enquiry. They tried to get me hy having me thrown out of the House the last session.

Now, they are going to be looking at my seat for the next fe\-1 months. Well, they can look at my front if they want to, Sir. It is indecent to look at my seat. MR. CROSBt:E: We tried to get you by having you run for the Liberal Leadership hut you got smashed there. Smashed! MR. ROBERTS: He followed a noble precedent there. ~ HONOURABLE fEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The one who will miss me in this honourable House is my 7669

December S, 1974 Tape 192'; IB- 2 old honourable buddy, the honourable the Premier, who sent me a Christmas card the other day with a picture of Confederation Building on it with a rubber stamp. I always knew the Premier was a rubber stamp. He cannot even sign his O'!-m Christmas cards personally. ~1R. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order! MR. NEARY: I know I am wandering. 1 realize it, Hr. Speaker. I am well aware of it, Sir. MR. ROBER1_S~ It is certainly relevant. I means the Premier will have fifty-one ruhber stamps to niake. :MR.

NEARY: What we should be asking ourselves in this honourable £louse, Sir, is what we can do to inprove the quality of government in this province. Hh&t have they done out in British Columbia for its people? There is the acid test; Mr. ~p(•aker. There is the acid test. The cost figure, Sir, per member in British Columbia is $353.07 unless, Sir, they have upped it recently. But the averai,;e cost is $353.04. AN HONOURABLE N!'::•!BER: Lies. MR. NEARY: Oh, lies my eveball. Get up and make a speech and contradict it. $353. 04 as comnared to Ncwfoundlan<l, Sir, <;2, 077. 74. Figures do not lie.

The ~linister of Fisheries is alwavs producing figures in this honourable House. '.lost of the time I think he is rif!ht. I believe him. You know what we are asking. \-le are asking to have that increased by 21.4 per cent to bring it up from s2,n77 up to 2,522.Q7. Mr. Speaker, I ask you and I ask honourahle members, 1 ask the honour;:it.112 member for St. John's South who is a man who goes around wearinp, l1is principles on his sleeve - he almost has a placard on him, a f!lan of i1igh moral principles - is he going to put up with this? r!R. JWBERTS: Well, the Hinister of Justice has. '.·!R.

NEARY: The ~finister of Justice is always rubbing his hands. He is going to have a prayer breakfast, Sir. I do not know if he has had it yet, going to have a prayer breakfast over at the Holiday Inns. ls the honourable 1·linister of Justice going to sacrifice his principles and put up with this? '.1R. HICK11A.~: The Leader of the Opposition ancl I are. MR. ROBERTS: No, I am not. 76"l0

December 5 , 1974 Tape 1925 IB-3 MR. NEARY: No, the Leader of the Opposition is not havin~ the breakfa st. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . ROBERTS: I know I am on the programme but it was not the programme I was told about. I was told it was nonpartisan. NR. NEARY: I appreciate this, Sir. I wish the members would settle it outside because - MR. ROBERTS: "Alex " is the only one -who has a prayer. AN HONOURABLE MllIBER: Inaudible. MR. NEA.llY: Make no wonder, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice would hold a prayer meeting. He is going to have to hold a good many more prayer breakfasts before he gets forgiveness for 7671

December 5, 1974 Tape no. 1926 Page 1 - ~n, participating in this gerrymandering. Mr. Sreaker, how will nine more members in this House ensure a better deal for our ordinary people. How will it? I wish somebody would tell me. I have not heard it so far in the debate. The people over in Ontario managed to get representation for a cost, per thousand voters, of $419.94, bargain price. It is going to cost us a heck of a lot more to get that in Newfoundland, with a population of 540,000 odd. MR. SPEAKER (Mr, Stagg): The honourable member has two minutes remaining. MR. NEARY: Time flies, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, before the mernhers of this House saddle the shrinking number of unemployed in this prow.ince, wage earners, Sir, who are just hanging on by a hair's breath from being away from the lowest per capita income in the entire country, before they saddle our taxpayers, Sir, with another care1essly, cruelly, imposed financial milestone around their necks, another provincial contribution, Sir, imposed on our people to add to the already galloping inflation that we have in this province, to add to the many already in existence who cannot cope with the high cost of living in this province, Sir.

I beJ!; members on either sirle of the House, especially those members who wear their principles on their sleeves, on the government benches to stand back and take a good, hard look at what they are doing to the people of this province who elected them to office, a scant twenty-two, twenty-tJ,rree months or ~-P.nty-four months ago and then, Mr. Speaker, in good conscience, defeat a bill calculated to do nothing hut add to the already miserable tax burden on our people in return for no conceivable real benefits, Sir . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I notice that one minister and one backbencher from the government side have spoken and I was more or less waiting because I thought there was going to be a 767t.

Decemher 5, 1974. Tape no. 1926 RH - 2 p,reater participation in this debate, especially from the government side. It seems rather disappointing to me that apparently no one on the government side is willing to get into this debate. Apparently some one in Cabinet or the Premier have said to them, "Now, boys, in the House lay low, shut up, be quiet and let the bill run through." I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that members of this honourable House would be performing their duty properly if they allow this bill to slide through without speaking to it because there are many principles involved here, Mr.

Speaker, many principles that have apparently been broken. Mr. Speaker, this whole question of redistribution and cutting up the districts in Newfoundland first came to the front during the Throne Speech Debate of April 19, 1972. I woulrl like to read for the information of the honourable members what the words of the Governor were at that time,or the administrator. The Throne Speech read, Mr. Speaker: "It is the intention of my government to establish an independent commission whose responsibility it will be to examine closely the present system of regional representation in the honourable House.

Population shifts, as well as improvements in transportation and communication facilities may have resulted in certain inequities in our present electoral boundaries. This permanent commission will report at regular intervals to government and will make recommendations consistent with a just and equitable system of representation." Now, Mr. Speaker, I have no quarrel with this proposed commission 7673

December 5, 1974, Taoe 1927, Pagel -- aob nor with the work of this proposed commission I believe if it were carried out and if it were adhered to it could ,e a useful and ;ust unit of our government. It is too bad. Hr. Sneaker. that the present government did not also practice upon the words that it preached at that time. lve h;ive heard, Mr. Sneaker, in the past couple of years at least two ministers in the present administration and two ministers th~t are nresentlv in the cabinet speak of how this government were P,oing to be white, pure and clean as far as distribution was concerned.

There was ~oing to be no more P;errvmanderin~. this was a thing of the past. Thev were going to be unique in government, they were ~oin~ to be first in P;overnment to redistribute the seats of this province so that no gerrymandering woul~ take place. Thev had given their word, Mr. Sneaker, that they would adhere and strictly adhere to the recommendations that would be presented by the commission. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it was only shortly after the Throne Speech Debate of April 1972, that the Minister of Education - and I am sorry he is not. in his seat this afternoon, I am sure he would love to hear the words re-uttered such as he spokP back on Anril 2n, 1972 - He was at that time. Mr. Sneaker, rather 1mt out because he thou~ht thnt gerrvn>andering had gone on before 197~. 'lavbe he was right. T do not believe the r,revious r,overnrnen t were complete l v white, there mav have been one or two little dark spots here and there. MR. DOODY: Shame! - ·-· -- MR. THOMS: ijut, Mr.

Sneaker, that was certainlv much better than the dark skv that hangs over this oresent adm:l.nistration at the present time. A.'1 HON. MEMBER: !Hack plague. MR. THOMS: Let me read for vou the words, Mr. Speaker, that the -present Minister of Education, the Member for St. Mary's uttered to this House on Anri.l 25, 1972. He said, Mr. Speaker, "We wish to put an end 7614

December 4, 1974, Tane 1927, Page 2 -- anb to gerrymandering and such an independent commission will nut an end to gerrvmanderin .g." When the minister spoke these words, Mr. Speaker, I thought he was in earnest. I thour,ht that now, gerry­ mandering would be ended once (and) for all and thal: this present government wo-uld take it IJPOn themselves to brine; before this honourable House a resolution that would be pttre and clean from any possible gerrymandering. The Metnber for St. Mary's , Mr.

Speaker, went on to say: ''The only thing that we of the administration can take cred.it for is that in our fi·rst election to office we irrevocably, irretrievably put an end to this kind of political sk-ulduii:ii:erv by statitlj!; in the Speech from the Throne the govenunent's intention and policy to establish an independent that obviously, is bindine; on us. " I would like for the honourable members of this House, Mr. Speaker, to note those last words the Minister of Education said; "To establish an indenendent commission that is obviouslv binding on us." 767 .

December S, 1974 Tape 1928 IB-1 tlow, ,'1r. Speaker, when the commission brought in its second report, that report should have been binding on the present government. The Minister of Education back in 1972 said it was. The }linister of Justice back in March of 1973 said it was. Here, lo and beholdi we find it is not. They have gone back on their worn. They have said one thin:, , and done another. They have definitely misled this Eouse. They h;we definitelv crucified the integrity of members of government.

Just imar,ine to stand up in this House and to say that the f indingf, that the recommendations of the cor.lll\ission is binding on us all. The resoluti1m that is now before the House is certainly not one that is the same as the commission recommended in its seconrl report. This, !1r. SpPaker, is obv:! ously bad business. Anv tampering whatsoever with the second report of the Royal Cmmnission on Reuistributior is automatically gerrymandednr,.

LJJ·.e one of the papers r,aid _just a counle of days ago when thev referred to it as frankiemandering- Phether it is gerrymanderinr, or frank i emarul erin[ . it is still mandering. ,tr. Speaker, I believe it is certainly too bad th'3t this P,OVf'rnment did not find it important enough to accept the recommendations of the Redistribution Commission. Just imagine what an insult it is to the members of that commission. The commission was led by possibly one of c:he mcst prominent Newfoundlanders that we have in our history today, one of the most prominent Newfoundlanders.

Wlth him he ha<.! three able and fine men. vnwn the Premier says that tile commission did not take into consideration any history of ~,ewfoundland, hogwash; ;,1r. Speaker, total hogwash! I would submit to you that the chairman of that commission had more history and was familiar with more history of Newfoundland than any three or four members of this present House of Assembly. That is no discredit to any member of this House of Assembly because the late Judge Higgins was indeed an outstanding Newfoundlander. To take the commission's report and to completely ignore it is a terrible thing indeed.

The comrnission 's report, ~{r. Speaker, like hundreds of other reports that this government have received, have been a total waste of time, a total waste of the taxpayers' money. 767b

December S, 1974 Tape 1928 IB-2 We have many ne.eds in Newfoundland, thousands of them throughout the ~unities of N~oundland and many of them,just $3,000 or $4,000 o:t $5,000 would aolve the problems involved. Mr. Speaker, if the government had no intention of accepting this report, why did they set up the commission and waste all this money? Just imagine, ~r.

Speaker, only in March of 1973 the present Minister of Justice when he moved-second reading of the bill, just listen to what he said: "I think that this should be regarded as somewhat of an historic occasion in this House because we are and will, if this honourable Houae approves the bill, take out of the hands of govenunent the possibility for setting the boundaries and the population of the vario11s electoral districts in the province." Good words, Mr. Speaker. Magnificent words, Mr, Speaker, but unless the government is willing to adhere to these words, they are indeed false and misleading.

The .minister goes on to say: "Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to this honourable House that no responsible minister and no 767/

Decenher 5. 1q74 I',: - 1 resnonsible comm:1.ns-Jon vould tolerate nor ,.,oul<l it re noss:fhJe. for there to he anv change in anv renort that comes frotn the commission." Now, Mr. Speal·er, this :ii:: the "fin:ister of Justice spe;:,l·:l.n!! saving that no resnonsible minister would tolerate or ,,,ould it r>E' nossihle for there to he anv change in any renort that cones from t~e commission. Here we find, Mr.

Sneaker, that the nresent administration including the nres~nt Minister of Justice have tolerated severe c•anv,es in the last commission's renort. '!'his resolution that is !:,efor.e the House at the nresent timP, Mr. Sneaker, is one of the most hlatant attempts of gerrymandering that we have ever seen 1.n Newfoundland. "Mavhe the nrev1.ous administrat:lon ar,<l other a<lministrations before were 2-uiltv of gerrVTT\nnderin~ lint they Pere never as hlatant as this attempt of gerrvmar,r!erini> ti At ,.,p h"v" h<>fr.rP t-hi" hor,ourahle House at the nresent time. This, Mr.

Sneaker, in the words of the r,reoaent ''inister of F<lucc1t1on of Anril 25, 107?, is the nerfect examnle of noljtical s~ulduggerv, and that :fs what the Premier :Is f':Uil tv of, hecause 1 rlo not 1'el ieve there is any other 1remheri:: of p.overnement who took nart in this 11.ttle m1dn1.Pht scratchinp.- with the nen. T hel 1.eve :In the local naners Phen thev sav It 1s an examole of l"ra•1viemaniler~np. A nerfect example of T'rank1 emimilering. •· '!R . R0RF.R.TS· ·------- ~ cold hlooded joh. you might sav. '-'r. Sneaker, T cannot understand.

T cannot see anrl I cannot resnect anv memher or an" min1.ster v,ho would dare sunport the resolutic,n hefnre this House at the ·,resent t:!me. I have a Quite a lot of resnect for manv memhers, on the f!"overnTTJent side of this House, t••70 or three of them are actuallv nice p:11vs, some of them are even half decent prominent ,lc~Jfound]andcrs hut, "'r.

Sneal<er, to sav that we will not nut un with anv polit1.cal skulduggery and also to say that the findings of the commission is binding on us aJl and then to go right against the commission and make somethinr: over thirty different changes in the houndaries, to E'hift names im<l everythi.ng else, :It is pure noJitical slmlduggerv, gerryman<lering and l"ranld.emander:lng at its utmm::t. AN HO?IT. MF.1'1'.BER: Inaudible. 767~

necember 5, 1974 Tane 1929 PK - 2 }~. ROBERTS: That is not the issue. Ml!. THOMS: °M?Y I deal with that, Mr. Sneaker. the Memher for Bonavista South the other dav in his sreech said "That he had ar objection to the commission's report." And I would submit to this honourable House, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for Bonavista South misled the honourable Rouse at that time. Because the oh1ection that he had in this case was not against the second report of the commissior, it was against the first report. That ob.1ection I agree with whole heartedly and support because the Island of St.

Brendan's has all its connections with Burnside where the ferry lands and with the Eastport Peninsula. Sn I 1ust want to correct that for the benefit of the ~ember for Bonavista South. Mr. Sneaker, this is the fall session of the House of As~embly. I almost thought when we were told that the House was going to open last week that the government WP.re going to come to grins with some of the real nroblems of the peonle of Newfoundland, the cost of living, unemoloyment, AN HON. MD.fBER: Inaudible. MR. ~HOMS: Tam not ~rorried about mv own district or anv other district.

I could not care less where you put the boundaries, and the Liberal Party could not care less where you put the boundaries,nut fifty districts in St. John's artd one outside and we will still win the next provincial election. We ~rill still win it. HON. MRMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Vou can do what you like with the boundaries. I could not care less.the principle is involved here. AN HON. ME>-!BER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: The Liberal Party and I will Rurv1vP. 1J-f th -ft. AN HON. MID1JIER: Inaudible. MR. THOJ,,f~: And no matter what happens, how you put the lines, it does not matter, we could not care lees.

AN HON. "IJ!){J3ER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: We could not care less, we ,-1111 still win the next provincial 767~

necember 5, 1974. Tane 193/J RH - 1 election. It is savi.np that we will not changP the cornll'i ssion 's reoort and then t>ettinp down in tho;, Cabinet room with a nenci l at the dark of n:I Pht chanoinP . it. ftN HONOURABLE '1C:HBER: Inaurlihle. ~-. Jl!_O~:: Criminal. Yes, sure it is criminal. The member for St. John's just said is was so. !)efin-ttel.v ctiil'inal. AN H0NOURABLE ME'.1RER: Inaud ihle. .. __ ., ___ _ •~. n10,1s · I cannot hear him. AN H0'.,11Ull.ABLF, \1E:•1BER: Tnaudihle. MR. TP0MS: -- - - ~·- 0h, sure! Indeed I can speak up a bit. T all' only started yet. m.

RCll\EP.I S: There is no trouble in makinp them hear. It is makinp; them understand. 'fT!. THOMS: Yes, this is tile problem. They say one thing one dav and go right apaini;t it the next dav. So, '!r. Speaker, I thought this honourahle !louse was poin!!' to deal with some of the urr-ent problems of our Province. We have !'lany of the"'. We have one of the highest costs of living in all of Canada. \-le h8ve thE> hiP;hE>st unemplovment rate in all r:anada, We have many - 'IP .. J. '11lRGN-I: To a noint of order, Mr. Speaker.

The honourable rentleman frorr Bonavista :'forth should be speakinp to the relevanc y of the hill that we are deal.in~ wit~ now, nall'ely the redistribution of boundaries and not with the .;.nemnlovment race rrnrl the hi Ph cost of livinp: in th is Province. '1R. R_'. l_RE,R_I~S : To that pojnt of orrler, )-1r. Sneaker. The member from Bonavista South either knows or should know that the member fro!'l Bonavista North is heinr quite relevant. He is exercisin g the normal latitude in debate, ~ivin? his reasons why he is opposing this resolution.

One of the reasons why he is oppos1np this resolution is he thinks it should not he hrou~ht before this House at this time. I think that is a perfectly valid reason, After all, Sir, it is what 500,000 Newfoundlanders are sayinp.. MR. SPF.AKE~: The rule of relevancy is a rather difficult one to rule on. I feel that the honourable member for Bonavista North ,_,,,.c; strayin r. som,·,.•hat from the rule of relevancy and I trust he shall come back to it. MR. THOM~: Mr. Speaker, I thought I was being very relevant, very relevant "lG .-, 0 I v

December S, 1974. Tape 1930 RH - 2 indeed. So, Mr. Speaker, we have in Newfoundland today forty-one members. Mr. Speaker, it is not really important whether we have forty-one or fifty­ one. It is not all that important to me. It is however, Mr. Speaker, very impo