British Columbia Hansard — Monday, March 11, 2002 (37th Parliament, 3rd Session) (H0311pm-02) (H0311pm 02)

H0311pm-02

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

3rd Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Monday, March 11, 2002 Afternoon Sitting Volume 4, Number 2 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 3RD SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ..................................................................................................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education............................................................................................................................. Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development ..................................................................................................................... Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ..............................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter ..............................................................................................................................Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality..................................................................................................................................Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ..................................................................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ..............................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .....................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health................................................................................................................................... Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................... Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue..................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..............................................................................................................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................ Hon.

Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Committee Clerk ..............................................................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ............................................................................................................................................................................ Joan A.

Barton Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria. Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. Internet: www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard

Party Standings: Liberal 76; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 1. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon.

Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L) ...........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind L) ....................................................................

Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (L)..................................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L)............................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) .................................................

Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) .............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L)............................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L) .................................................................. Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) ............................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon.

Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon.

Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L)....................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L) .........................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L)..........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ..................................................................................... Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L).............................................................. Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, John (L)............................................................................. Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L).........................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L).............................................................

New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) ............................................ West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (L)...........................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .......................................................

Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ........................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L).............................................................. Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) .............................................. West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon. Katherine (L)....................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................

Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ....................................................................................John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley.................................................................................. Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville.....................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale ........................................... Hon. Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head......................................................................... Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .......................................................................Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North ................................................................................. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ..........................................................Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................... Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena ............................................................................................... Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................... Hon. Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock................................................................. Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi................................................... Hon.

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Monday, March 11, 2002 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 1697 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... .............................................................. 1697 Hon. L. Reid R. Hawes Hon. R.

Thorpe Statements (Standing Order 25B)................................................................................................ ........................................... 1697 Dairy industry in B.C. J. Les Lifesaving society R. Lee Volunteers in community services R. Hawes Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 1698 Funding for Delta Hospital J. Kwan Hon. C. Hansen J. MacPhail Review of funding for affordable housing projects T. Christensen Hon. G.

Abbott Compensation for physicians R. Hawes Hon. C. Hansen Government policy on nuclear presence in Nanoose Bay J. Kwan Hon. G. Campbell Affordable child care E. Brenzinger Hon. L. Stephens Speaker's Statement ............................................................................................................ ..................................................... 1701 Commonwealth Day Motions without Notice ......................................................................................................... ................................................. 1702 Message to Queen Elizabeth II Hon. G.

Campbell Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 1702 Estimates: Ministry of Health Planning (continued) J. MacPhail Hon. S. Hawkins J. Kwan

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 1744 Estimates: Ministry of Education Hon. C. Clark J. Kwan R. Masi S. Brice D. Jarvis R. Lee S. Orr P. Wong K. Manhas

1697 MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members Hon. G. Plant: I'm informed that visiting us in the gallery today is Mr. David Tilson, one of Her Maj- esty's counsel, learned in the law, and his son Greg. I'm told that Mr. Tilson is a member of the Ontario Legislative Assembly, and for both of those reasons I would ask members to please make both of them very welcome. Hon. G. Campbell: I'm pleased to recognize in the House today seven legislative interns who started, on March 4 of this year, working full-time for the gov- ernment caucus.

They will remain working with the government caucus until the end of June. I'm sure you know, Mr. Speaker, that the legislative intern pro- gram in British Columbia is well regarded across the country.

I'm very pleased to have such quality indi- viduals serving with our government caucus: Jacque- line Eaton, who is at the University of Northern Brit- ish Columbia; Terri Giesbrecht, University of North- ern British Columbia; Tara Marsden, University of Northern British Columbia; Scott Morishita, Univer- sity of British Columbia; Milan Pavlic, Simon Fraser University; Eldon Sala from Simon Fraser University; and Shawna Towriss as well. I hope we'll make them welcome. [1405] J. MacPhail: We'd like to match our interns with their interns, if I may, an d welcome our interns, as well, to the legislative chamber.

I must say that we are being extremely well served by this group of incredibly intelligent young people. Both those factors make me very annoyed. [Laughter.] Audrey Ackah from the Un iversity of British Co- lumbia, Richard Overgaard from the University of Brit- ish Columbia, Daphne Powell from the University of Victoria, thank you very much for all of your assistance. S. Orr: I'm very pleased to introduce today to the House 40 extremely bright grade 11 students from St. Michaels University School, which is in my riding, and with them their teacher, Mr. Jack Shergold, and his wife, Mrs. Shergold.

Would the House please make them welcome. Hon. R. Thorpe: It's a pleasure for me to introduce seven members of a management team of Shaw Com- munications, a very prominen t Canadian firm, visiting Victoria today and talking about the future of opportu- nities here in British Columbia. Here today are Peter Bissonnette, Ken Stein, Terry Med, Colin Paterson, Pe- ter Nielson, Alex Park and Chris Ewuznik. Would the House please make them welcome. Tributes MARIE ASH Hon. L. Reid: I would ask the House to please join with me in a moment of remembrance. Born November 13, 1913, Marie Ash passed away March 7, 2002.

This was a woman of incredible warmth and great, great spirit. When she and I firs t met many years ago, she said she hoped to live long enough to see a Liberal elected. That was prior to the 1991 election. Her hus- band served this House for many years as an MLA more than 50 years ago. Following our election in 1991 she said, "I just want to live long enough to see a Liberal government" — so success on both counts. Marie, you will be missed. I would ask the Speaker to please send a letter of condo- lence to her family. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. Thank you. WOMEN'S BASKETBALL R.

Hawes: This last weekend Mission's Heritage Park Highlanders won the provincial girls AAA bas- ketball championship. That's the third year in a row, this year under coach Frank Chan. At the same time this weekend the SFU Clan won the Canadian college championship for our prov ince. The thing that con- nects the two is that Bruce Langford, the coach of the Clan this year, was for the previous two years the c o a c h o f M i s s i o n ' s H e r i t a g e P a r k H i g h l a n d e r s . M r .

Langford is an outstanding coach and educator in this province, and I'd like to ask all members to salute both of these teams of women athletes and in particular Coach Langford for his outstanding service. Hon. R. Thorpe: Last week the House was advised on March 6 that it was the birthday of the member for Comox Valley. Unfortunately, it wasn't his birthday last week. In fact, it's his bi rthday today. It's his sixty- second birthday, and apparent ly he's taking it very hard, because he's home ill today. I wish the House would extend their best wishes to the member for Co- mox Valley that he's feeling better.

Statements (Standing Order 25

B) DAIRY INDUSTRY IN B.C. J. Les: I would like to briefly discuss the dairy farm- ing industry this afternoon. Dairy farming has been an economic mainstay in British Columbia and particu- larly in my riding of Chilliwack-Sumas for many years. Often our area has been referr ed to as the milk bucket of British Columbia. Our province is home to some of the most advanced and modern dairy farms in the world. Leading-edge technology and nutrition, to- gether with modern genetics, have combined to pro-

1698 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 duce some of the highest-production herds and some of the most efficient management practices in the world. Dairy farming in British Columbia is a world- class industry and a real credit to the dairy farmers of this province. They supply a first-class product to the consumers of British Columbia. [1410] Until recently the majority of B.C. milk was proc- essed and marketed by a cooperative known as Dairy- world.

Previously known as the Fraser Valley Milk Producers Cooperative Association, this cooperative had its origins in my riding in the early twentieth cen- tury. In early 2001 the co-op was purchased by Saputo Group Inc., based in Montreal. Saputo was the largest dairy processor in Canada and one of the leading cheese producers in North America. A dynamic, world-class company, Saputo today employs over 7,100 people. The company's shares are listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange. Recently the Saputo executive team, in cluding chairman and CEO Mr.

Lino Saputo, toured the lower mainland and met with dairy producers as well as government officials. They were extremely impres sed not only to see the first-class dairy operations th at I referred to earlier but also with the much-improved business environment now apparent in British Columbia. I'd like to thank the various cabinet members who met with the Saputo team — in particular the Minister of Agriculture, who spent some considerable time with them.

I am optimistic that as a result of these meetings and with the calibre of B.C.'s dairy farmers, the future of B.C.'s dairy industry has never been brighter and that more investment in bo th production and process- ing will follow. That's no bull. LIFESAVING SOCIETY R. Lee: The day before yesterday I had the honour to participate in the ninetieth annual Commonwealth honour and rescue awards ce remony of the Lifesaving Society of Canada, B.C. and Yukon Branch. The Life- saving Society was formed in England in 1891 to re- duce the number of drowning s prevalent in the United Kingdom.

In 1911 the British Columb ia branch was formed, and in 1971 it became the B. C. and Yukon Branch. The Lifesaving Society is a no n-profit voluntary organiza- tion dedicated to preventing accidents and saving lives in an aquatic environment. It has been teaching swim- mers to be life-savers, lifeguards and instructors since 1896, when the first life-saving class was taught in Canada. The awards ceremony was a very special day for many of the volunteers who have spent their time promoting aquatic safety for the benefit of the entire community.

It's also a special day to honour those who, through their individual acts o f b r a v e r y , h a v e s a v e d the lives of so many. Many heart-touching stories were told at the cere- mony. We heard the story of a ten-year-old boy, Justin Zutter of Surrey, who pulled a woman out of Hatha- way Lake near 100 Mile House. We heard about the heroic rescue performed by Kevin Brown of Nanaimo, who desperately tried again and again to open the door of a car floating in the Fraser River to get the driver out.

We heard the story of Charlene Comeau, Per Humle, Jessica Kerr, Gerry Langdon and Jill Witowich, who had prior skills and knowledge gained through the society programs to aid victims of aquatic emer- gencies. To the many brave men, women, boys and girls who go out to meet the cha llenges in an emergency, I salute you. VOLUNTEERS IN COMMUNITY SERVICES R. Hawes: March 22 marks Volunteer Appreciation Night in the district of Missi on. This is an annual event that takes place in Mission and is put on by the city council and by the chamber of commerce in Mission.

Each year the award recipien ts include the sports vol- unteer of the year, the service volunteer of the year, business of the year, citizen of the year and a lifetime achievement award. Today I just want to take a moment to remind all of us that volunteers actually are the backbone of every community. They touch every facet of community life from minor sports, disease control, youth develop- ment, public safety…. Our hospitals don't run without volunteers.

I want to particularly salute today the vol- unteers that work in our CPAC offices and community policing and in our volunteer fire departments across the province. [1415] On behalf of all of us, I want to salute the volun- teers not just in the district of Mission but right across the province. They deserve our thanks, and I urge all of us to give them that. Mr. Speaker: Thank you. That concludes members' statements. Oral Questions FUNDING FOR DELTA HOSPITAL J.

Kwan: Will the Minister of Health Planning pro- vide an assurance to the residents of Delta that a formal consultation process will proceed before the Fraser health authority cuts funding to the Delta Hospital? Hon. C. Hansen: Each of the health authorities in the province has been undergoing a review of the most effective way to deliver patien t care in their respective areas. Those plans are going to be coming to govern- ment sometime in the near future, and we'll be review- ing them when we receive them. J.

Kwan: The residents of Delta had an assurance that there would be consultation on the cuts to the Delta Hospital, but the opposition has learned that the consultation process which was promised has been

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1699 axed. The minister said last week in estimates that she would hold regions accountable for consultation. Again, to the Minister of Health Planning: the Fra- ser health region is not co nsulting. What are you going to do about that? Hon. C. Hansen: Each of the health authorities has had ongoing discussions. Ther e have been discussions with medical staff and community leaders.

They've been looking at the best way of actually meeting the needs of patients in these communities, not focusing first of all on the bricks an d mortar but on the needs of individual residents in access ing the care they need in the most effective manner. Every region is doing that; every region is at different stages in the development of their plans. Nothing will be finalized until such time as those plans are reviewed by government. J. MacPhail: Well, isn't that interesting?

Perhaps the Minister of Health Services should actually let the Min- ister of Health Planning answer the questions for which she's responsible. In a letter to staff that we obtained, the chief operat- ing officer of the Fraser health authority says that plans are moving forward to impl ement the cuts, including those to Delta Hospital. Needless to say, the Delta Hospital Foundation is very upset. The Minister of Health Services probably doesn't know what's going on. I don't blame him; not very many people tell him what's going on. To the Minister of Health Planning.

If the minister won't answer my colleague's question, perhaps she will answer the same question th at was put in writing to the health authority's CEO by the Delta Health Foun- dation. Why is the health authority being allowed to proceed with the cost-cutting recommendations with- out consultation with th e community and the Delta Hospital Foundation, as was promised? Hon. C.

Hansen: Each of the health authorities is putting their proposals together for the redesign of the health care system to actually make it start working for patients for a change — unlike the last ten years, where we saw the health care system deteriorate. There are not cuts in health care in British Colum- bia. An additional billion dollars has been put into the health care budget by this government, and we want to make sure that every dollar spent in the health budget is spent in a way that meet s the needs of patients.

The health authorities are now trying to come up with their design for the health care system so that we can actu- ally get on with the change and get on with meeting the needs of individual Br itish Columbians in every community throughout this province. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. J. MacPhail: Perhaps the minister should try to catch up with what's really going on out there in the real world.

Six billion dollars is being handed over to unac- countable — completely unaccountable — health au- thorities, and the govern ment, including these two ministers, is just washing its hands of any responsibili- ties. Hospital closures are coming in every region in the province, but last week the Minister of Health Planning said that, oh, it's not her responsibility and passed the buck to the regions. The regions make promises to the public to consult, and then they break them just as easily as the Minister of Health Planning did.

British Columbians are con- s i g n e d t o w a t c h i n g t h i s b u r e a u c r a t i c g a m e o f b u c k - passing and butt-covering like we've never seen before, all as the government dismantles health services. Again, to the Minister of Health Planning: will the minister order the Fraser he alth authority, which she created and appointed the chair, to undertake, as they promised, a consultation process before any decisions are made to cut vital health services to Delta as out- lined in this correspondence? [1420] Hon. C.

Hansen: I'm actually quite surprised this member doesn't realize that the health authorities fall under the Ministry of Health Services. As a result, I'll be pleased to try to answer. This is the first time in B.C. history that we've actu- ally put in place accountabi lity measures for the health authorities — the first time — instead of the approach that was taken by the previous government, where they continued to pump more and more money into the health care system without results. In fact, we saw the health care system deteri orate at a time when they were pumping… Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please, members. Hon. C. Hansen: …more and more money into it. The health authorities are engaged in consultations throughout the province. They're sitting down with community leaders; they're sitting down with health care professionals; they're getting the advice of doctors on the front line and nurses on the front line. They're going to be coming forward with their plans to redesign the system. At the end of th e day the accountability for those decisions will rest here with this government, because we're going to get on with fixing the health care system.

REVIEW OF FUNDING FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROJECTS T. Christensen: Last October the Minister of Com- munity, Aboriginal and Women's Services announced a freeze on approximately 1,700 proposed housing units while his ministry was to conduct a review of all the projects and the ability of the province to pay for them. Those projects are ar ound the province. One of

1700 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 them is in my riding. Can the minister give us an up- date on the status of that review? Hon. G. Abbott: One of the challenges we inherited from the former government was a budget expenditure line for B.C. Housing that rose from $126 million in the last fiscal year to $170 million in '04-05. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Abbott: That clearly is not a sustainable budget line, even among sp endthrifts like the former government. That produced the very difficult decision to put the projects under review.

I'm very pleased to say that after a lot of work at B.C. Housing and within the ministry, we have no w reached a sustainable budget line. We do that through strengthened partner- ships with the federal government, local governments, health authorities, the non-profit sector. That has al- lowed us to be in a position where, hopefully, later this week we will be announcing about 700 units that will proceed. About a thousand, unfortunately, won't be able to proceed, at least at this time. Mr. Speaker: The member for Okanagan-Vernon with a supplementary question. T.

Christensen: Given the financial constraints the province does face and that , as the minister has indi- cated, all the units won't be able to go ahead, can the minister outline the criteria used in the review and the type of project that will be proceeding? Hon. G. Abbott: Certainly, the key criterion… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Abbott: …with respect to our review of the projects was around whether the projects were in fact targeted to those who are mo st vulnerable in our soci- ety: the frail elderly, the homeless, the physically and mentally disabled or ill.

Those projects that we'll be announcing are all certainly ta rgeted in that direction. The other thing about them is that they are all very strongly partnered. In fact, these 20 projects…. Interjections. Hon. G. Abbott: I don't blame the opposition for being consumed by the bad news that eats them up each and every day. Those 20 projects bring $49 million in partnership equity to the table. I think that's a re- markable achievement. We believe some of the remaining projects will be able to proceed.

Certainly, we're going to challenge them to bring more to the table — whether it's land, the servicing to the land… Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. Hon. G. Abbott: …and other aspects of it. I'm sure, knowing British Columbians — now that they've re- covered from the legacy of the former government — they'll rise to that challenge. [1425] COMPENSATION FOR PHYSICIANS R. Hawes: My question is to the Minister of Health Services. This past weekend the minister met with the BC MA in V ancou ver.

Health care is u pperm ost in the minds of most British Columbians, and there seem to be conflicting messages that have come out of this meeting. Can the minister please tell us what he hoped to accomplish at this meeting? Hon. C. Hansen: I did meet with the executive of the BCMA for about two hour s on Saturday. We have put $390 million on the table for the coming year and each of the subsequent years to deal with physician compensation. That's an average increase of $50,000 per doctor in British Columbia.

My goal in meeting with the BCMA was to follow up on a letter from the president of the BCMA urging us to get on with sorting out the details, so those cheques can actually flow to doctors as soon as possible. We're anxious to sit down with the B.C. Medical Association as soon as possible to deal with some of the outstanding issues, so physic ians in this province can start to realize the cheques that flow as a result of that $392 million increase. Mr. Speaker: The member for Maple Ridge– Mission has a supplementary question. R.

Hawes: I know there's been a number of physi- cians corresponding and speaking with each other about this issue over the last few days. Specifically, I know they've had a number of discussions around their pay increase, etc. There's a lot of confusion around this. I wonder: could the minister tell us exactly what settlement the doctors in this province are going to get? Can you clear up the confusion? Hon. C. Hansen: There is a 6.2 percent increase across the board on fee-for-se rvice, which is retroactive to last April 1. Those cheques should start to flow within the next few weeks.

There is an additional 5.1 percent increase that takes effect retroactive to Novem- ber 1, and again we're trying to get those dollars to flow as soon as possible. Annualized, that means an increase in physician remuneration of $180 million for fee-for-service. There's an additional $80 million increase for on- call payments for physicians throughout the province. On top of that, there is $127 million to deal with issues around increases for salaried and sessional phy- sicians, increases in the re muneration for rural doctors

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1701 in the province — increases there to make sure we cover growth in population and the increased utiliza- tion. It is a very generous comprehensive package there to assist in making sure we can retain and recruit the physicians we need to meet the needs of British Co- lumbians in the years ahead. GOVERNMENT POLICY ON NUCLEAR PRESENCE IN NANOOSE BAY J. Kwan: Last week the Federal Court of Canada overturned the federal government's expropriation of Nanoose Bay. In 1999 the now Premier stated he sup- ported the no-nukes policy in Nanoose Bay.

Last week the Premier backed away from that commitment, breaking yet another promise. To the Premier, on the course of agreeing with th e former government's deci- sion on Nanoose Bay — that it is the property of British Columbia: why is the Premier breaking his commit- ment and allowing nuclear weapons in British Colum- bia waters? Hon. G. Campbell: Actually, the member opposite does not recollect what our position was. We said it was wrong for the federal government to expropriate that land. During the campaign we said we would ask the federal government to repatriate that land.

We con- tinue to pursue that policy. We're going to continue to ask the federal government of Canada to meet the needs of coastal communities up and down this coast and to live up to the terms of a lease which says that coastal communities come first. Mr. Speaker: The member for Surrey-Whalley. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. The member for Surrey-Whalley has the floor. AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE E. Brenzinger: My question is to the Minister of State for Women's Equality. Child care remains a pri- ority for many British Columbians.

A number of my c o n s t i t u e n t s h a v e b e e n a s k i n g m e w h a t o u r g o v e r n - ment's plans are to provide affordable child care. Can the Minister of State for Women's Equality tell us what her plans are to make child care in B.C. more accessible? [1430] Hon. L. Stephens: This is a very important ques- tion. It certainly is for all of the working families in British Columbia and for the single moms around the province. We are undergoing a new direction for child care. In the fall I did a consultation around the province. We touched 12 communities and sent out 20,000 sur- veys.

What we are developing now is a child care plan that is partnership-driven, community-focused, fiscally sustainable and directed to target families who need it the most, and to increase and expand the number of child care spaces in British Columbia. This new targeted system will reduce administra- tive costs for providers and make more effective use of our limited resources and will provide predictability… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. L. Stephens: …and stability to families of British Columbia and to child care providers. [End of question period.] Speaker's Statement COMMONWEALTH DAY Mr.

Speaker: Hon. members, today is Common- wealth Day. In legislatures in Commonwealth nations throughout the world a common thread is shared by a special Commonwealth Day message provided by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Queen of Canada and head of the Commonwealth. As members of the British Co- lumbia branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and through you to the people of British Columbia, it is my honour to convey, on behalf of Her Majesty, the Queen's Commonwealth Day message celebrating diversity.

"Over the last 50 years the Commonwealth has undergone a remarkable transformation from an association defined by its history into the modern, multicultural organization we know today. Across those years it has been the privilege of many of us to witness that evolution, to see at firsthand the contribution made by the Commonwealth leaders, as evident in Australia last week, and to share in the enthusiasm and warmth of its peoples. "Today the Commonwealth is a meeting place for north and south, east and west.

It is built on diversity, which is why this year's theme, 'Celebrating Diversity,' goes to the heart of the association. "Politically, the Commonwealth sees its diversity as a strength. That was certainly true of its invaluable contribution to the ending of apartheid in South Africa. The practical assistance it was able to offer in such crucial areas reflects the kaleidoscope of its membership and its expertise.

As a result, the Commonwealth was able to work with all the different communities of what is now proudly called 'the rainbow nation.' Bridging social and political divides has also been a feature of the Commonwealth's continuing work in seeking to encourage democracy, good governance, the rule of law and respect for human rights. "In all this, we recognize that promoting diversity is not just tolerating differen ce. Living together as neighbours needs more than that. The true celebration of diversity involves reaching out, recognizing and embracing difference and, in so doing, enriching our lives.

It requires respect for others and a readiness to learn from them, recognizing that we have duties as well

1702 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 as rights and seeking to leave the world a better place than the one we inherited. "As each of the last 50 years has passed, so, too, has our appreciation of the contribution made by the Commonwealth, an association of peoples as much as it i s o f g o v e r n m e n t s , b o u n d t o g e t h e r b y i d e a l s a s w e l l a s interests.

If the Commonwealth is to remain a force for good, we must ensure that those ideals are carried forward by the millions of young people across the world who are its future so they, too, can celebrate and build on the diversity of this unique organization. "Elizabeth R. March 11, 2002" Hon. G. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, thank you for conveying Her Majesty's Commonwealth Day message to Members of the Legislative Assembly and the people of British Columbia. Motions without Notice MESSAGE TO QUEEN ELIZABETH II Hon. G.

Campbell: I'd like to move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition, that the following mes- sage be forwarded to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada and head of the Commonwealth: [The Queen's Most Excellent Majesty, Most Gracious Sovereign, on Commonwealth Day, 2002. We, the Members of the 37th Parliament of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia, beg to offer our sincere congratulations on the Fiftieth A n n i v e r s a r y o f y o u r r e i g n .

I n t h i s G o l d e n J u b i l e e y e a r , the people of British Columbia are proud to join other members of the Commonwealth in paying tribute to Your Majesty's guidance and devotion to duty and to reaffirm our continuing loyalty and respect. The citizens of British Columbia are looking forward with great pleasure to the visit of Your Majesty and His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh to our Pacific province, in the year of your fiftieth reign. We pray that Your Majesty will continue to reign in peace, health and happiness for many years to come.] [1435] Hon.

Speaker, believe it or not, I can still remember when Her Majesty's coronation took place. I remember it because it was actually the first television my family ever had. It was rented, it was huge, and it took up most of the room, but the family stood around and watched that ceremony — incredible for all of us in the Commonwealth. Her Majesty has led us through incredible times of change.

She has always been a symbol of stability, a symbol of integrity, a symbol of grace and a symbol of the greatness that we ha ve in the Commonwealth, where we have a constitutional democracy and democ- racies that are thriving, th at have spread around the world and, in fact, that have been an example to every- one. I am pleased to stand on behalf of this Assembly to celebrate Her Majesty's jubilee year. Motion approved. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply, and for the information of members, we'll be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Education.

In this House I call Committee of Supply as well, and for the information of members, we'll be discussing the estimates of the Ministry of Health Planning. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; H. Long in the chair. The committee met at 2:39 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH PLANNING (continued) On vote 30: ministry operations, $16,633,000 (con- tinued). [1440] J. MacPhail: I note from the general responsibilities under health planning that the Minister of Health Planning is responsible for seniors', women's and abo- riginal health.

I checked that out at the beginning of estimates, and the Minister of Health Planning ac- knowledged that. My questions today are going to be about aboriginal health. I have correspondence from the director of aborigi- nal services. Perhaps the Mini ster of Health Planning could review for me aboriginal health services as they stand today. Hon. S. Hawkins: What we've done with aborigi- nal health is devolve the funding for the contracts down to the health authorities. What we've kept in the ministry is the strategic planning aspect. That is how we've delineated it.

We've got a smaller office, but we're going to focus on strategic planning for aborigi- nal health. J. MacPhail: If the minister has a sore throat, I to- tally understand it; but if no t, I'm having trouble hear- ing her. Perhaps just lean closer to the mike. I under- stand about having a sore throat, believe you me, and I wish her better health. What is the change, then ? If you've devolved abo- riginal health, what is the change? Hon. S. Hawkins: I'll try to speak into the mike. We've moved the funding for the contracts to the health authorities.

We are expecting the health authori- ties to create health plans for the aboriginal communi- ties. We want them to develop the relationship with the health communities. We will be monitoring aboriginal health on a higher level, a more strategic level. That's the relationship. They will look after funding. We ex- pect them to put plans in place. I think most of the

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1703 health authorities are pretty well on the way to having their aboriginal plans in pl ace. With the provincial health officer, we will be mo nitoring the health of that population. J. MacPhail: There was a provincial Aboriginal Health Advisory Council in place. What's happened to that? Hon. S. Hawkins: The provincial aboriginal health organization or council is still in place, and they will be helping us develop a provincial aboriginal health ser- vices strategy. J. MacPhail: So the advisory council is still in place.

Could I have the membership of that, please? [1445] Hon. S. Hawkins: The steering committee includes representatives from political organizations such as the First Nations Summit, the Unio n of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the Métis Provincial Counc il and the Aboriginal Peo- ples Council. It has provin cial health organizations — Community Health Associates of B.C. is the rep — and provincial advocacy organizations such as the B.C. Aboriginal Network on Disability Society, the Council of Aboriginal Women of B.C. and Red Road HIV-AIDS Network. J. MacPhail: When did they last meet, and what has been the meeting

schedule under this government? Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm not sure if they met last month or two months ago, but they are meeting on Thursday of this week. J. MacPhail: Under the provincial health goals, particularly goal No. 5, which identifies aboriginal health as a priority, the Minister of Health Planning and I discussed this in her last set of estimates last Au- gust. At that time the minister said she was committed to all of the provincial health goals. What has she done in the last…? What discus sion has occurred between the B.C.

Aboriginal Health Council and this minister, particularly with regard to goal No. 5? Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm trying to remember the groups I met with over the last few months. I'm trying to get that clear. I met with aboriginal governors from the different health authorities. That was a couple of months ago. They were working on the health plans for the health authorities. I also met with the First Nations Summit, the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, the health committee. We will be meeting with them again this week. We are very committed to looking at the health status of the aboriginal popula tion.

It's an area of great concern. We've identified that there are issues we can work on together. We'll be meeting with the first na- tions health committee repres entatives this week and starting to work on specific issues to address to get us to the health goals so they match the general popula- tion. We know that the health status of the aboriginal population is well below that of the general popula- tion. J.

MacPhail: Does the part of the Ministry of Health Planning that's still responsible for aboriginal health, and that hasn't been devolved to the health authorities, continue to be called the aboriginal health division? What is it called? How many staff are there? What is the reporting mechanism? Hon. S. Hawkins: The new department is the spe- cial adviser, aboriginal health. There are 2.5 staff in that office. They report directly to the provincial director general, population health and wellness. [1450] J. MacPhail: There's a special adviser on aboriginal health. Who is that, please? Hon. S.

Hawkins: Lisa Allgaier. J. MacPhail: She reports to the provincial health officer, as I thought I heard? Hon. S. Hawkins: She reports to the provincial director general, population health and wellness unit. That's Andy Hazlewood. J. MacPhail: We have 2.5 people looking after pol- icy around aboriginal health. The minister refers to the fact that the aboriginal he alth plans are moving for- ward. I have correspondence received at the beginning of this year from aboriginal people wondering what was happening with the health plans. How are abo- riginal health plans proceedin g at the regional level?

Perhaps the minister could take one regional authority and describe to me how it's happening, because cer- tainly not every aboriginal group knows this is hap- pening out here. Just take one. Hon. S. Hawkins: The health plans were started when there were 52 health authorities. We've restruc- tured and now have six health authorities, so we've got five regional health author ities. Those health authori- ties are taking the health plans that were started by the 52. If you went into the interior health region, they would be taking the health plans that were within their region.

We have extended the deadlines for them to work on those plans; I believe we've extended them to this fall. They will be responsible for showing us they have worked with their aboriginal community and come up with some health plan around what they were working on initially with the 52 governors. We expect t h e m t o h a v e a m o r e c o m p r e h e n s i v e v i e w o f w h a t i s required, because they are in a bigger population base now. Those health plans are ve ry valuable. I know, when I met with the governors, that the 52 different regions were at different stages of working on those health

1704 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 plans. In fact, if I'm corre ct, I think the interior and some of the rural areas were further ahead in develop- ing their health plans. We have now extended that to this fall, and we expect the health authorities to come back to us with a framework for an aboriginal health plan. J. MacPhail: Will aboriginal health programs be delivered through the health authorities as part of the $6 billion, or is there any targeted funding listed? I couldn't find any targeted funding in the estimates book. [1455] Hon. S.

Hawkins: If I could just go back for a min- ute, I should clarify those health plans. The health plans must address improved access to service and increased aboriginal involv ement in decision-making and planning for their population, and they must show the establishment of a meaningful working relationship between the aboriginal communities and the health service providers, the health authorities and the prov- ince. That's what we're expe cting in the health plans.

My understanding is that $9.5 million is in the budget for the Ministry of Health Services for planning, service delivery and contracts for aboriginal health. J. MacPhail: When one says "meaningful consulta- tion," perhaps…. Is there going to be sign-off from first nations aboriginal groups on the health plan? Hon. S. Hawkins: No, we haven't asked for sign-off for today.

We're going to hold the health authorities accountable for ensuring that they have had meaning- ful discussion with their aboriginal population, that there has been consultation and that they have engaged them in the planning, in the decision-making. There are four policy tables that we are engaged in insofar as helping with health planning. I listed them before. That was the First Nations Summit, and that's representing the first nations engaged in the B.C. Treaty Commission treaty-m aking process; the Union of B.C.

Indian Chiefs; the Métis Provincial Council of British Columbia; and the Aboriginal Peoples Council. At a ministry level, we are engaged in those at a policy table. At the health authorit y level, we expect them to make sure they have engaged their aboriginal commu- nities. We'll be holding them accountable for that. J. MacPhail: What role, if any, will aboriginal peo- ple be playing in the health authority governance? Hon. S. Hawkins: I understand that there has been interest and that people have come forward and names have been put forward for people of aboriginal descent who would like to serve.

There is no requirement per se. How can I put it? There's no select spot on a board for a representative, but I understand that there have been names put forward. J. MacPhail: Well, there used to be a designated spot for first nations on he alth boards. I gather what the minister is trying to say is that that seat for govern- ance is no longer there for aboriginal first nations peo- ple. Let me just ask a very specific question in terms of the health plan. There was a publication called Healing Ways which talked about aboriginal health in this prov- ince.

Is the minister familiar with it, and is it forming any part of the planning pr ocess for aboriginal health plans? Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm familiar with a document that…. There are several, actu ally, that are titled simi- larly. Can she give me more information on the one she's talking about? [1500] J. MacPhail: It was a document that was published by aboriginal communities throughout the province, called Healing Ways . It was just about how aboriginal health had to be all-encompassing in terms of the ser- vices provided and the differe nt nature of health ser- vices required by aboriginal people.

It concentrated as much on urban aboriginal he alth requirements as on non-urban aboriginal health requirements. The docu- ment did very much concentrate on the different needs of aboriginal communities in terms of alternative therapies. I noted with interest the relationship between Heal- ing Ways and the government's recent changing of the legalities of practising alternative health in this prov- ince. Has the minister had any discussion with…? I'm thinking specifically of naturopaths.

The previous gov- ernment had introduced legislation allowing for that kind of practice of medicine without penalty for a phy- sician. That was removed — repealed — by this current government so that it's now an open-ended question about whether physicians can practise alternative methods without penalty. Has the minister or the abo- riginal health advisory coun cil had any further discus- sions about alternative methods of health delivery for aboriginal communities? Hon. S. Hawkins: No, we haven't had any specific discussions, but I just want to make it clear to the member that we didn't take away any rights.

We did not remove any. There are no impediments to practi- tioners practising complementary medicine. They're going to be held to the same standards that every other physician that is registered with the College of Physi- cians and Surgeons is going to be held to. As far as physicians ou t there practising comple- mentary medicine, we did not say there was going to be a penalty for them practising. We removed some pretty interesting pieces of legislation — I don't want to get into it here — in estimates.

We brought everyone back to the same standards that the College of Physi- cians and Surgeons holds for all of its members.

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1705 J. MacPhail: Those are not my words; those are the words of the medical practitioners who practise com- plementary medicine about the government's removal of their right to do so without consequence. Well, for the minister's information — and perhaps she can discuss this when she meets with her aborigi- nal health advisory council — there has been much work done by off-reserve aboriginal people, particu- larly the need for urban aboriginal health services.

It is my understanding that the ma jority of those services are at threat now due to the lack of targeted funding, and no longer will the government be providing tar- geted funding for aboriginal health services. They will be competing along with heart surgery and knee sur- gery within the various health authorities. I actually don't think that lives up to provincial health goal No. 5. My constituency and the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant's constituency together form the largest off-reserve ab original population in all of Canada.

In meeting with our aboriginal constituents, our first nations constituents, their two highest con- cerns about achieving economic equality are lack of proper health care and lack of proper education. It's true. For the last ten years we tried very hard to change those numbers, and we were changing them. But we did it through targeted funding, both targeted funding in the education system and targeted funding in the health system. I think a ll of that is at risk now.

I know very well how difficult it is to compete for valu- able health dollars when you have a small alternative type of health care delivery that a specific part of soci- ety uses. Frankly, aboriginal peoples in this province need more love and care and health attention than the vast majority of the rest of us. [1505] One of the reasons why I brought Healing Ways to the attention of the minister is because all of these questions are addressed in that document and were leading to some solutions.

One of the solutions that was put forward was a healing centre that would serve the off-reserve, urban aboriginal population. The last correspondence I had on that issue…. There was silence from the government. Can the minis- ter, in terms of health planning for aboriginal health, give me the status of where the aboriginal healing cen- tre for the lower mainland stands? Hon. S. Hawkins: L e t m e s a y , f i r s t o f a l l , t h a t w e are developing a closer relationship with the aboriginal communities. We met for the first time — all of cabinet — with the first nations.

I myself and the Minister of Health Services have met with the first nations health committee. I've met with different representatives from health authorities around the prov ince, the past governors that were working on the health plans. I believe the provincial health officer is releasing a report this spring on the health status of ou r aboriginal population in B.C. There's quite a bit of work being done around this. I want to make sure the member realizes there's not a cut to that funding. It's $9.5 million. It's going to con- tinue. It is targeted for three years.

That's my under- standing from the deputy minister. It will continue to be targeted for three years. In those three years we're asking the regions to consul t with the health authori- ties, particularly with respect to general access issues around the continuum of care and specifically around mental health and addictions. Those are the two areas we're asking the health author ities to work on with the aboriginal communities. I can tell you that I share the member's frustration with the disparity between urban aboriginal health and, shall we say, reserve aboriginal health. We know there's a funding disparity.

We've certainly discussed that with the First Nations Summit and other groups. I've also spoken to the federal minister about it. It's something we're all going to work on together, because we recognize that the federal government gives so much funding for aboriginal s on reserves but forgets that they do travel around. As the member rightly points out, there is a huge population in the urban ar- eas. We need to start addressing their concerns and making sure there's fundin g in place that addresses their health needs as well. [1510] J.

MacPhail: One of the reasons why, in the last set of estimates, I asked specifically about the provincial health goals is because so many of the health goals deal with indicators of health that I don't think this gov- ernment has done a very good job of paying any atten- tion to whatsoever. Those are the socioeconomic factors that affect health outcomes in this province. I have be- come increasingly worried about what this means for my own constituents.

Perhaps but for a couple of members from the city of Surrey, my colleague and I, the two opposition members, share the lowest-income neighbourhoods in all of British Columbia. I am very concerned abou t the lack of targeted funding specifically toward off-reserve, urban aborigi- nals. I'm very concerned about the lack of targeted funding that affects programs for lower socioeconomic British Columbians. I think there are health programs that overlap with education programs.

I will be watching this extremely carefully, because the Premier in his estimates said there isn't a day goes by in a Premiers' conference that the issue of aboriginal health is not mentioned. It's always mentioned at the Premiers' level in the context of dollars from Ottawa. I know that because I've been there, and I heard exactly what happened at the last two Premiers' conferences, as well, from the inside. It's not about health outcomes. It's not about equality for first nations or aboriginal people. It's about more dollars from Ottawa to pay for their responsibilities — i.e., the federal aboriginal health.

That was the discussi on I had with the Premier, as well, in his estimates. I will be watching extremely carefully the aborigi- nal health plans that come out of the health authorities. I'll be watching extremely carefully what it means by virtue of the fact that, from the minister's own briefing notes, the mandated repres entatives for physicians,

1706 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 aboriginals and union are gone and what the conse- quences of that are. I'll be watching very carefully what it means to no longer have targeted funding for abo- riginal health programs. We had a long discussion last week, before we left off, about the fact that all of this would be outlined in a contract between the health authorities and the government, that there would be an outline of what money was to be spent on what.

I have to tell the minister, through the Chair, that I can predict as accurately as anyone possibly can that the minute this government gets caught in a health- funding downward spiral, where there's not enough dollars, this government will ignore the contracts with health authorities to solve that crisis. If the crisis is in heart surgery wait-lists or cataract surgeries, that con- tract will be set aside, and the money will flow to those services at the expense of others.

I also fear that, with the fact that there's so little cooperation amongst the health partners today, there will be jockeying for health dollars for various progra ms like we've never seen before. I can't figure out where the accountability is. I'd love to be able to see these aboriginal health plans. I have no idea how to get my hands on them; I have no idea. That's why I wanted to go through one — to tell me exactly how it's going to come about. We used to be able to get them through the health authorities.

They would be public documents — rolling documents, works in progress — through the regional health boards and the community health councils. That no longer exists. It is not in a threatening way. It is in a way of unbe- lievable concern that I have for aboriginal health out- comes in this province. I worry. I worry about the kids who go to schools in my riding, the kids who…. They're first nations kids. We don't beat around the bush about it.

It's not politically incorrect to say that in our inner-city schools, in my and my colleague's rid- ings, the majority of the kids who are ill-affected at the socioeconomic level are aboriginal kids. We admit to that. [1515] These kids no longer have their guaranteed meal programs. These kids no longer have the guaranteed funding through their aboriginal health programs anymore, and I worry. I worry about these children like you can't even possibly imagine.

As I leave this topic, at every estimate — and if not at estimates, at every opportunity I have — I will stand up here and ask this minister what she's doing for abo- riginal health services in this province. Hon. S. Hawkins: Let me just say that the aborigi- nal health plans are being developed. They were never finished, so I don't know what the member's referring t o a s f a r a s h a v i n g a c c e s s t o t h e m b e f o r e . M y u n d e r - standing is that they were never completed. We are now working with the health authorities, and we're asking them to complete the plans.

They will b e p u b l i c d o c u m e n t s . W e ' v e m e t w i t h d i f f e r e n t a b o - riginal groups and asked them to help us prepare ac- countability measures and standards with respect to aboriginal health that we can hold our health authori- ties accountable for. Let me just say this. She mentions the broad indica- tors of health, and she's concerned about the socioeco- nomic factors that affect them. Let me remind her that B.C. is now a have-not province. One of the best indica- tors for health is a good, thriving economy. We were elected to make sure that we got our province's fiscal health back.

In good financial health we could then provide funding for the kind of social programs that she's concerned about. You know what? This government has protected funding for health and education. In fact, we have in- creased funding for health. You know what? Unless we get the province's economic picture back to a good state of health, we're not going to be able to afford all the kinds of programs that she's concerned about. We are doing the best we can with the funding that we've got. We've protected health and education, and we're going to continue to do that.

We're going to make sure that our health authorities are not going to function like the past ten years, the status quo, where we kept dumping money into health care and didn't measure outcomes. She talks about looking after the crisis of the day. We're hoping to move away from that. We want to make sure that the funding we actually give to the health authorities will be us ed to make sure patients actually benefit from the pr ograms set up. That's what we've asked our health authorities to do. That's how we're functioning. Whether she believes it or not, the $9.5 million for aboriginal health is still there.

It's there, and it's tar- geted for next three years. What we're asking them to do in the next three years is to consult with the com- munities to make sure they recognize the priorities, work with the health auth orities and put the funding where it needs to go to make sure we have the positive outcomes for our aboriginal population as well as our general population. J. MacPhail: My point is exactly the same as the minister makes, but from the flip side. The delegation of accountability has been put down to the health au- thority. It is not here with this government.

They have abdicated their responsibilities to the health authori- ties. If I need to find out whether the health authority money is being spent on aboriginal health services, I guess I have to go to the individual regional health authorities. That was never, ever the intent of any pre- vious government whatsoever, and it's not right. It isn't right that an unelected one-man band in a region gets to make decisions about health care. You can bet your boots the health crisis will come up on funding, because it happens all the time.

That minister knows that, because she used to stand up here and rail against lack of services — renal dialysis ser- vices and heart surgery services. She used to do it her- self. There would be funding that would go. We would

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1707 examine it carefully. We wo uld not take away from Peter to pay Paul, but we would add funding to deal with those crises. [1520] What this government has done is say: "No more money. You health authorities figure it out yourselves. By the way, we're actually not going to tell you in any way what the ballpark figures are for you to be spend- ing. We're going to write up a contract with you, and we hope you live with it.

By the way, we don't honour contracts anyway." This government somehow sug- gesting that a contract is a document of trust is abso- lutely laughable. In terms of the well-being of the province in indica- tors of quality of life, this province is first. That minis- ter knows it, because she sat in front of the progress board chair who reported that. In quality of life and health outcomes, this province was first.

It will not in any way assist this minister — about which she knows nothing in terms of have versus have-not province dis- cussions — to use that argument again, because it will come right back to haunt her. But she's welcome to enter the Minister of Finance estimates when we have that one. I leave it as I did before. There seems to be an in- ability for the minister to understand this issue. The well-being of this province, from the point of view of socioeconomic equality, is measured in how well first nations and aboriginal peop le do.

Progress was made in the last ten years, and I will be watching to see what happens to that with these changes made by this gov- ernment. The next area that I'd like to go to, which is the second item of general responsibilities, is capital planning for the Minister of Health Planning. In the documents we received last week — not the one just specifically for the minister herself but for the Minis- ter for Health Services — there's much talk about capital planning. In this document it's broken down into A, B, C and D lists of capital funding.

Can the minister please tell me, in her planning exercise, how the lists were determined? Hon. S. Hawkins: I just want to go back again for a minute on accountability. She's again railing — I'll use her word — on accountability. I can tell you that the last ten years were an example of failure of account- ability of the health system that just sucked in money and didn't necessarily put out good health outcomes. We know that. We've seen a health care budget that has more than doubled in ten years.

Again, when you go around the province, you don't hear people saying, "Gee, the quality of the health care is twice as good," or "We've reduced the waiting lists by half." What I was angry about when I was in discussions with the minis- ter on her crisis funding was that there was no plan- ning for these kinds of things. Frankly, when we trav- elled around the province, what we heard from people was: "Get the politicians out of it. Put good people in there, and let them listen to the communities.

Let them do the planning, and let them make the decisions that make the best sense for patient care and meeting pa- tients' needs in their communi ties." That's what we're doing, and that is what we're going to hold the health authorities accountable for. With respect to the projects on the list that she's talking about, again, that is Health Services. Those are decisions made with respect to the budget in Health Services. What my ministry is responsible for is a high- level plan for the next ten years. We're going to look at the needs of the province.

Wi th respect to the authori- ties, over the next three, five to ten years we'll be doing that in consultation with the health authorities. J. MacPhail: Well, maybe the minister could define what high-level planning means. Hon. S. Hawkins: It's probably something she's not at all aware of. It's long-term planning. J. MacPhail: Could she flesh that out a bit, please? What exact actions are being taken now? [1525] Hon. S. Hawkins: We'll be working with the health authorities to look at the needs of their communities, their changing populations and their different burdens of disease.

We'll be looking at the needs for facility planning over the next three to five to ten years in con- sultation with them. J. MacPhail: Well, it's already been done, so I'm not sure what the minister is saying about long-term plan- ning. It's already here. Let me just read a list. I'll work backwards between attachments A, B, C and D in terms of the consolidated capital plan. List D, program-related projects in planning. I as- sume this refers to what the Minister of Health Plan- ning, a full-fledged minister responsible for health planning, is talking about.

It says that health authori- ties must fund all debt se rvice, amortization and oper- ating costs, so that means there's no new money for any of this given to the health authorities. The planning has been done here. It says, for instance, in the Fraser — it's the top of the list — the Maple Cottage Detoxifi- cation Centre replacement facility…. If it's going to be carried forward, the health authorities must fund all debt service, amortization and operating costs. Is the minister somehow saying that this isn't the case? Hon. S. Hawkins: That is the case. J.

MacPhail: What other planning would the minis- ter be involved in? For inst ance, there's the interior. Earlier today I heard the member for Kamloops–North Thompson get up and say how wonderful things were going to be in his community with the election of a new government. Here it says that a $14 million project for the second-floor redevelo pment of the hospital is going to be the sole responsibility of the health author- ity. The Nelson health campus as well, a replacement facility that was fully fund ed by the previous govern-

1708 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 ment, now has to be paid for by the health authority completely: debt service, amortization and operating costs. Given these decisions, what is the minister work- ing on for long-term planning? Hon. S. Hawkins: Hon. Chair, she knows full well that many of these were not fully funded. I would ask her to think about what kinds of decisions their gov- ernment made for facility planning. Many of them were political.

People across the province have asked for poli- ticians to get out of that kind of decision-making and make sure that the money targeted for health care is actually used to meet patients' needs in the best way for patients across the province. That is what we're doing. We're working with our health authorities. Many of the projects on this list are under review. What we're trying to do, in the long term, is look at our population needs. We know we've got a huge growing seniors population, and we know there are different ways of looking after them.

We have a Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care who is looking at the needs in the long term for that population, from extended care and those kinds of facilities to per- haps assisted care and more in-home care. Those are the kinds of things we're looking at. Building monuments isn't something we're going to do in a political way. What we've asked the health authorities to do here in the short term is identi fy the needs of their commu- nities and their populations. The Minister of Health Services, I'm sure, would be happy to discuss with you how this list was drawn.

In the long term we're going to be working with our heal th authorities to flesh out the kinds of needs their populations are going to be facing, the different diseases they expect to be facing in the next few years. The member knows full well that we're working on primary care renewal. We're looking at more integrated teams of care to look after chronic disease care populations. [1530] Those are the kinds of plans we're putting into place as we go forward in planning for facilities and equipment. We know there are going to be equipment changes in the next ten years.

We're not going to do what the previous governme nt did, which was bulk purchasing. I might have a facility in which a certain piece of equipment is No. 1 on my list. In another facil- ity, it's No. 30 on their list. But guess what. The prov- ince thinks they got a grea t deal, so they end up pur- chasing a whole bunch. Whether it's No. 1 on my list or No. 30, we get it. We can't afford to do that with health care dollars. We've got to be smarter. We're going to work with the health authorities, and we're going to plan for future facilities and equipment planning. J.

MacPhail: Does the minister plan on bringing the health authority CEOs and chairs in here for estimates? Hon. S. Hawkins: No. J. MacPhail: Then answer my questions. If the health authority chairs are not going to be in this chamber, the minister has to answer these questions or get them in here. It's $6 billion, and this minister stands up and says we're going to have the health authorities do it. Either she has them in here and lets the taxpayers see what accountability they have of the chairs, or she answers the questions. She is in charge of he alth planning, and all she does….

It is actually unusual that it's 3:30 and she has- n't brought up fast ferries. What we're looking for are answers from this minister on what she does on a regu- lar basis. What's her job? What does she do at 8 a.m.? What does she do at noon, and what does she do on a Thursday afternoon? That's what I'm trying to find out from this minister. Do we have to have leaked documents to find out what her briefing notes tell her to say? She's in charge of capital planning. Answer the questions. I want the specif- ics, not that she's going to say to the health authorities to plan for capital planning.

Tell me what the interior health authority is doing about capital planning for Nelson. Hon. S. Hawkins: I k n o w t h i s m e m b e r i s h a v i n g trouble understanding this. This is long-term planning. It isn't crisis planning. It's not day-to-day planning. It's not back-of-the-napkin planning like how her ministry u s e d t o f u n c t i o n w h e n s h e w a s i n c h a r g e o f i t . T h i s i s long-term planning. I didn't say the health authorities would be responsible. I said we would be consulting and working with the health authorities to develop that ten-year plan.

Right now they're going through an assessment of what the needs of their population are. We're also asking them to project, long term, on the basis of their population needs and what kinds of facilities, perhaps, or equipment or other things they might need in the long term. That is what we're going to be working with them on. I'm having trouble understanding why this mem- ber isn't getting this through her head. If she wants to go through the list item by item, she can certainly do that with the Health Services minister. That's in the budget of his ministry.

In my ministry we will be look- ing at what the health au thorities are doing and how they're making their decisi ons around long-term plan- ning. We'll work with them to make sure we are plan- ning the kinds of facilities and equipment they need in their authorities to move ahead into a ten-year plan. J. MacPhail: What is the long-term planning for the community of Nelson? Hon. S. Hawkins: We'll be working with the health authority on that. They are in the process of developing their plans, and I'm sure th ey'll be consulting the com- munity and consulting th e different communities around there.

In the next few months I'm sure we'll come up with plans that this member can be entitled to. Next estimates, perhaps, we'll have a long-term plan for that community. J. MacPhail: There were 700 very concerned people out to meet with the region al health authority in Nel-

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1709 son. The town of Nelson knows what they want, so the chair has had that meeting with the town of Nelson. What is the minister's discu ssion with the chair of the health authority about the long-term plans for Nelson? [T. Christensen in the chair.] Hon. S. Hawkins: You know, it's really regrettable that politicians interfered in such a horrible way in that community. That member's government promised something that wasn't fund ed. They knew they could- n't deliver and did it in a very political way before an election.

That is the kind of stuff we're trying to get away from. When we trave lled around the province, people told us: "Don't do this. Get the politicians out of it." [1535] I can't tell you how many administrators, health care providers, doctors, community people and pa- tients said: "You make sure you get the best people to make the decisions for what's needed in our communi- ties." That's what we're doing. We're not going to be politically interfering. We're going to let the decision- makers, the people that know about health care, the administrators, the communities as well…. We're hear- ing from the communities.

We're going to make sure it makes sense for all the population around that area. That's what we have committed to do, and that's what we're going to do. J. MacPhail: The meetings have taken place in Nel- son with the health authorit y, the CEO and the chair. The community has spoken. What is the minister doing about that? Hon. S. Hawkins: She's absolutely right. The chair has been there, and he's been there several times. He's listened to the community. He's taken their comments, and they're looking at what is required for the needs of the population around that area. You know what? This is so frustrating.

It's not: "What are we going to do for this little community, this little community, this little community?" Maybe the NDP way of doing things is to be very political and say, "We'll give you this, but we won't give you this," or "We' ll put that there." That is not what we're asking our health authorities to do.

We're asking our health authorities to think about what they've got for funding and think about making sure they put patients first — that patient care is a pri- ority — and to organize health care within those health service delivery areas, within their health authorities, to make sure they're getting the best value for the dol- lars that they're being funded for and make sure the patients are being well served. I'm sorry I don't have an answer for that member on what, politically, we migh t think of doing in that area. I don't know.

We're waiting for the health au- thorities, who are making their plans, to come back to us and tell us what makes sense for patient care so we make sure the patients all over that region, all over that health service delivery area, get good care. J. MacPhail: Am I to assume that this list on at- tachment D that says that health authorities must fund all debt service, amortizations and operating costs is wrong, then? Is that what I'm to assume — that you haven't made a decision on this list? Hon. S. Hawkins: I understand that attachment A, the A list, is going ahead. The others are under review. J.

MacPhail: W e l l , i t s a y s h e r e v e r y f i r m l y t h a t a decision has been made, and actually, letters have gone out to the health authoritie s with those attachments. Has the minister recalled those letters outlining at- tachments A, B, C and D? Has she recalled those? Hon. S. Hawkins: She's got the letters in front of her. None of them are being recalled. Everything's clearly laid out in the letters. The letters stand the way they are. J. MacPhail: It doesn't say they're under review. It says — it's very specific — that these are the four cate- gories.

I am trying to find out what the long-term plan is. The Minister of Health Planning stands up. During estimates last year, this was how she described how Health Planning was taking place: "Well, we meet in the hallway, and we have some great conversations. The Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services and I have some good conversations with the Minister of Children and Family Development. We just meet in the hallways. We don't have any formal meet- ing." I was asking specifically about cabinet committee meetings. I reviewed these estimates from last year, believe you me.

It was: "Oh no, we're just bonding like crazy, and we have some great conversations in the hallway." I thought maybe Health Planning had moved on a little bit from last August. Maybe you weren't just sort of meeting in the hallways, and there was actually some sort of formal planning process going on. That's what I'm trying to figure out — what it is the minister's doing.

Has she moved the discussions into some sort of formal aspect where the pub lic actually knows what's going on, where her colleagues may know what's go- ing on and that can be actually examined, as is required by law, in this Legislature? [1540] All we have is a document that but for a leak would never have come to the public eye. And we have a list of four categories.

The category that I'm referring to with the minister was attached to a letter sent to the interior health authority CEO saying: "You've got to pay for these yourself." What kind of input would they get from the com- munity of Nelson that wo uld change their mind on, let's say, the Nelson health campus — that they might actually want to put some money into it? What is the list of questions being asked that the minister keeps to referring to, which would allow for the public to

1710 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 change the government's mind — let's just say about the Nelson health campus? Hon. S. Hawkins: She has the letter. If she looks at the letter, on page 4 it does say: "The next step is that the health authorities should review all capital projects for consistency with possible service delivery changes, overall priority among other local needs, alternative procurement opportunities and affordability." They've been asked to look at all of their projects and review them within the context of those criteria.

She keeps going back to the Nelson health campus — again, a political decision that was unfunded. They didn't intend to fund it. It's a pretty sad statement for a government that was on its dying breath to try and do that. We are not going to politically interfere with the planning. We've asked professionals to go out there and tell us what is required to make sure that patients get good care within their he alth service delivery areas within the health authorities. That is what we've asked them to do, and that is what we're going to continue asking them to do. They're in the process of planning.

She's abso- lutely right. The different administrators and the chair have been out. He's met with communities. He has travelled quite a bit. I know that there have been other community meetings. Our MLAs have been out listening to community groups as well. We will take all of that into account as the health authorities de- velop their plans. With respect to long-ter m planning, again, that's exactly what it is. I am not going to make short-term decisions. That is up to the Minister of Health Services and the health authorities. We are looking at the needs of the population over a long term.

We know that there's going to be a huge impact on the health care budget if we don't get our chronic disease numbers under our belts here, if we don't get them under con- trol. We know that we have to develop strategies for diabetes, for asthma, for heart disease, and we're work- ing on groups to do that. If she went through the service plan for Health Planning and looked at some of our strategies, our goals, our targets that we hope to reach, she would see that there is a lot of good work being done now in the Ministry of Health Planning.

But she wants to focus on health services and the sh ort term and some of the things that the health authorities have been assigned to do in view of the decisions that they have to make in planning over the next one to three years. That's fine; we can continue this. But if she wants to focus on health planning, maybe she wants to look at the service plan there. We can tell her about all the good work that we have accomplished to date, like the nursing strategy. We've done a ton of work ar ound the nursing strategy. We've actually been able to reduce nursing vacancies in this province by 20 percent.

We went on a recruiting mission. We were actually able to recruit 46 specialty nurses. We were actually able to get a return-to- nursing-in-B.C. program established — and guess what. There are over 250 app licants from nurses who weren't practising in B.C., who are now coming back because of the grants we laid out that will help them to get their refresher program and licensure again. There is a lot of good work being done. If she wants to keep being Chicken Little — fearmongering, scaring patients and doing that kind of stuff — we can con- tinue that kind of dialogue here. [1545] J.

MacPhail: I'm not quite sure what the Minister of Health Planning is talking about — fearmongering. I'm reading from her own document, so I'm not quite sure. It's a document, of course, that had to be leaked. It's a violation of the Budget Tr ansparency and Accountabil- ity Act that this wasn't part of the budget. It's outra- geous that the Minister of Finance withheld this infor- mation from the public in violation of the Budget Transparency and Accounta bility Act. I'm not quite sure why the minister is somehow saying that I'm fearmongering. I'm reading from her own documents.

They're documents that were kept secret from the public, in violation of their own legislation. All I'm doing is discussing it now. I'm not quite sure why the executive-council benches are so up in arms. I just want to carry on with the discussion, because this minister set up the he alth authorities. The great plan she brought to cabinet set up the health authori- ties. She must have known what she was doing. I know that it took her a couple of tries to get the health plan through her cabinet, but she must have known what she was doing.

She must have had some idea of what the long-term planning was going to be for each health authority. W h a t I ' m t r y i n g t o d o i s j u s t d i s c u s s , t o t a k e o n e example. I've been trying throughout the whole thing to just walk through a case study. I asked for it on abo- riginal health. We couldn't do it there, which is part of her responsibilities. I'm not making this up. It says capital planning right here. I went through this at the very beginning with the mi nister. Capital planning — that's all I'm trying to do. The Nelson health campus was fully funded by the previous government.

There's evidence completely to that effect. The government's trying to say it wasn't fully funded. Interjections. The Chair: Members, could we have a bit of or- der and allow the member to proceed with her ques- tions? J. MacPhail: I t h i n k , M r . C h a i r , t h e M i n i s t e r o f F i - nance needs to actually read his acts and figure out what his job requirements are. To hold himself ac- countable to the public, he would have released this document with his budget if he'd been following the law. He broke the law, and now he's upset by the fact that he broke the law.

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1711 The Chair: Member, if we could restrict our com- ments…. We're dealing with the Minister of Health Planning's estimates. Coul d we proceed with those, please? J. MacPhail: Yes. That's actually what I'm trying to do. I'm reading from the government's documents. I'm not quite sure why the Minister of Health Planning is so upset by that. Let's try to take another case study, then. I'm just trying to figure out one that maybe the minister…. Let's talk the provincial heal th services authority, then.

That was set up with great pride by the Minister of Health Planning. She stood up in her estimates and said that for the very first time ever, we were going to set up a provin- cial health authority. So here we have under attach- ment D, the provincial health services authority…. Riverview Hospital is all going to have to be funded by the provincial health services authority: the debt servic- ing, the amortization and th e operating costs. What was the thinking behind ha ving Riverview Hospital entirely of its own — having to take money from Peter to pay Paul…? Hon. S. Hawkins: She was on capital planning.

I'm just wondering where she's m o v e d o n t o n o w . S h e ' s now talking about Riverview. If she looks there, from what I can tell, 100 percent of the capital funding is coming from the ministry. Some of it is under construction. Some of them are sub- stantially complete. The op erating will come from the provincial health services authority. [1550] J. MacPhail: Sorry, no. I'm reading from attach- ment D, program-related proj ects in planning. Health authorities must fund all de bt service, amortization and operating costs.

Then you move down to the pro- vincial health services authority, Riverview Hospital. I'm just using that as a case in point. When you set up y o u r p r o v i n c i a l h e a l t h s e r v i c e s , s e p a r a t i n g i t o u t — Riverview used to be a separate board unto its own — what was the thinking of the Minister of Health Plan- ning as she set up the provincial health services au- thority? I refer to the documents that were actually made public by the government as opposed to this one, which wasn't. July 30, 2001 — I think that was the first economic update of this government.

Their own documents say "Capital expenditure projects. Re- placement of the Kootenay Lake regional hospital and Mount St. Francis Hospital with the Nelson health campus in Nelson" — fully funded. Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm pretty proud of the fact that this government accepted, for the first time ever, a health services authority that looks after provincial programs, because I know, again, over the last ten years or so we saw patients around the province who were not very happy that they weren't getting access to equitable care.

We wanted to make sure we pulled out the programs, put them into one health authority and made sure there's represen tation from around the province on that health authority to make sure people across the province would get equitable care. The reason that Riverview went into that provincial health services authority is that it is a provincial re- source, a provincial hospital. That's where we felt the needs of patients would be best met. J. MacPhail: What I'm trying to find here is, in terms of health planning…. Let's just take mental health, then, for health pla nning.

Riverview Hospital is now the major facility for people with mental illness that need long-term care. That's Riverview Hospital. There was a plan to change that. I'm looking through lists A, B and C to find out what the plan is for River- view Hospital or regional health facilities as well — for instance, the one in Kamloops. Among the lists A, B, C and D, I'm trying to figure out what the minister's long- term planning is for people with mental illness who need chronic care attention. Hon. S. Hawkins: We're looking at Riverview to see how it can meet the tertiary needs of patients across the province.

We're also looking at different models to see how community needs can be met for patients that require mental health services. As far as detailed planning for the mental health plan, she's certainly welcome to talk to the Minister of State for Mental Health, who is going to be delivering the $125 million mental health strategy that her gov- ernment failed to deliver. In the short term, he will be doing that. He will be rolling that out. I believe he's been working very hard at that.

We've been working with this minister on the lo ng term, as I said, on how Riverview can meet the tertiary needs of mental health patients, as well as working with him to see how we can meet the needs of patients in communities. J. MacPhail: Maybe the minister can understand my difficulty in finding out some information. If you go to the blue book, there's not one single line for men- tal health — not one. There's no money designated specifically for mental health — none — just as there's no money designated for aboriginal health.

It's a big lump-sum payment and then about a hundred respon- sibilities under that, which are being delegated to the health authorities. It's not like people who are advocating for a family member with mental illness can open up the blue book and figure out how much is there. The minister keeps saying $125 million. I can't find out where the $400 million went that was in the last budget. I can't find out where that went, for mental health. Right now there's zero. [1555] This is the minister responsible for long-term plan- ning. Mental health is a huge issue in this province.

I go to the capital plan, and I' m trying to find out, in terms of long-term planning, what the idea is for resi-

1712 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 dential, acute care or chronic care for people with men- tal illness. All I can find is a listing for Riverview Hos- pital saying: "Hey, provincial health services, we're giving you nothing to do anything about Riverview Hospital. If you want to do anything, it all comes out of your own pocket." Perhaps the minister could walk through with me the long-term capital planning for mental health facilities. Hon. S. Hawkins: There is $138 million in capital funding for mental health.

This includes the facility in Kamloops, which her government failed to fund and never built. It includes the facility in Prince George, and it also includes modular facilities for moving pa- tients out of Riverview and into communities as their needs need to be met. Again, she can talk to the Minis- ter of State for Mental Health, who's working very hard at this. I understand, as well, that the money for mental health has gone to the health authorities.

She's certainly welcome to canvass the Minister of Health Services on how that money is going to be spent and how some of it is being targeted and some of it is being looked at as they make their plans to meet the needs of the popula- tions within their health authorities. J. MacPhail: I will be asking the Minister of Health Services the information that's in his area as well. This minister is responsible for capital planning. That's why I'm putting the questions he re. She also admitted that the regional health authority chairs would not be avail- able for questioning. That's why I'm asking her the questions.

In this consolidated capital plan budget I can't find a figure where it says $138 million for mental health facility capital planning. What I can find is a figure of $11.8 million for new-era commitments for capital planning for the year '02-03 and then another $23.6 million for '03-04 and another $23.6 million for '04-05. Does the minister have some paper that…? She came up with the figure of $138 million. I can't find that anywhere — leaked or public. Hon. S. Hawkins: Again, that is the money that's been delegated for capital pl anning for mental health.

Again, if she wants to question the Minister of Health Services and the Minister of State for Mental Health around that, she's welcome to do that. You know what? I can understand why she doesn't get it. She focuses on the immediate. She just doesn't seem to understand long-term planning. If she goes into the service plans for Health Plan- ning, she'll see that for the first time ever…. We've probably put out more information than we ever got from them in the last five years. I can't ever recall hav- ing the detail of information that we put out in our service plans. We actually set goals.

Under those goals we actually set some objectives. Under those objectives we actually set some strategies. Then, in order to measure how well we were going to do, we actually set some targets. [1600] As far as capital and equipment, I am responsible for the long term. We've asked our health authorities to tell us now and into the next year or two how they can best utilize the capital and equipment they've got and to identify their needs. Within the context of those kinds of discussions we will be developing a long-term capital and facilities plan for the province.

In fact, our target for long-term plans for the health sector — our complete four-year capital plan; complete acute care and intermediate and long-term care facilities plan; an update on our health human resource plan; and a complete design and consultation on medical machin- ery, equipment and technology — is '03-04. You'll find t h a t o n p a g e 7 o f y o u r l eaked document. Actually, it was not leaked; it's public information. J. MacPhail: No, it wasn't public information until someone other than the government made it public. Please don't in any way try to take credit for telling the public the truth.

Perhaps the minister coul d show me where in that document the $138 million for long-term mental health facility planning is listed. I can't find it anywhere. I read the health plan, I read the health planning service plan, and I can't find it anywhere. Just point me to it. Hon. S. Hawkins: I am absolutely amazed that she has the gall to ask these questions. Her government, for the last four or five years, said they were going to fund a $125 million mental health strategy and didn't put one cent into it. They were forced — forced — to put money into it when they were called on it.

Frankly, the Minister of State for Mental Health has been working extremely hard to implemen t the strategy that they started. We will have a long-term plan for mental health. It's being develope d. We're working with our provincial health services authority and our regional health authorities. Again, I can see why she's having trouble focusing on long-term planning, because she's more inclined to think of the immediate. We're inclined to think of the long term. We're asking for our health authorities to get the best information possible to identify needs, to look at planning for the next two or three years.

Then we'll sit down with them to look at the needs of the population over the next five to ten years. J. MacPhail: Can the minister tell me where I can find the figure of $138 million for mental health facili- ties, please? Hon. S. Hawkins: That figure was given to me by the deputy, who also serves the Minister of Health Ser- vices. I told her — through you, Chair — that she is welcome to canvass those qu estions when the Ministry of Health Services has its estimates. J. MacPhail: No, I'm asking for the piece of paper so that the public would be able to know about it.

MONDAY, MARCH 11, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1713 Where is that piece of paper that shows the three-year planning for mental health? The minister is saying th ere's a figure of $138 mil- lion. I've been through th e leaked documents and the public documents, and I can't find that anywhere. Just tell me. It's just a figure. It must be a public figure, so just give it to me, please. Hon. S. Hawkins: If she can't get it from the Minis- ter of Health Services, I'll get it for her. J. MacPhail: Is the minister saying that somehow the figure that she just read out to me is not available to the public?

Let me just make it clear that if the government would actually provide information about this stuff, we could have a decent dialogue. I have a figure. Here's the figure I have of what they've got planned for mental health: capital planning — $11.8 million this year, $23.6 million next year and $23.6 million the year after that. That'll be the end of the first term. I don't know where else I could get information. All of a sudden, popping out of nowhere, comes the figure of $138 million. The Minister of Health Planning is re- sponsible. She gave the figure. Just send it across to me; that's all.

What's the document it's in? All right. Let me ask this, then. Here's what I'll ask. Boy, the Minister of Health Planning is so reluctant to discuss things based on facts. Here's what I had for the total capital expenditures for the consolidated capital plan until the end of this government: $324 million for last year, $328 million for '02-03, $200.9 million for '03- 04 and $176.7 million for '04-05. Could the minister break down what she has as $138 million over that same period of time and where it fits into the total capital expenditure breakdown, then? [1605] Hon. S.

Hawkins: I w a s t r y i n g t o b e h e l p f u l . S h e asked for a number. The deputy gave me a number. I told her I will commit to breaking it down for her. In fact, as soon as staff do it, I will get it for her. But guess what. She asked for the number. It's probably more in- formation than I ever got when we were questioning them. They've got all our service plans, which are totally public. She's got leaked documents which have a ton of information, probably more than we ever got anywhere. I am trying to be helpful. I don't know why she can't get it through her head. The deputy said $138 million.

I will break it down for her. I'll commit to doing that. J. MacPhail: Good. Thank you very much. I hope the minister isn't surprised…. Interjection. J. MacPhail: I'm not sure that the Minister of Health Planning should be trying to refer her job away to eve- rybody else. Somebody may take her seriously that she has nothing to do. That's why I'm asking about these particular situations. I hope the minister isn't offended by the fact that, given all of the information we've managed to glean, there's no $138 million, and there- fore I'm actually asking fo r further detail. I hope the minister isn't upset by that.

Let's go back to the context of that in the overall capital plan, because that seems to me…. Let me see. If I add that up, that would be probably more than 15 percent of the total funding for the entire capital plan for health. Is that correct? Hon. S. Hawkins: I just got the figures for her. It's $118 million in capital funding over the next five years for mental health plan capital projects, plus $20 million for the facility in Kamloops. J. MacPhail: Okay, so we've got $130 million over five years. Could the minister…? Interjection. J. MacPhail: Okay, sorry — $138 million over five years.

Could the minister br eak that down on what's being spent this year, please — or all five years, then? The service plan is for three years, the minister may acknowledge. Actually, where is this information available publicly — like the $20 million for the Kam- loops facility? Where is that in the budget documents? Hon. S. Hawkins: Again, I fear that the member doesn't understand that the fu nding for this is actually in Health Services. The planning for this is in Health Planning.

The Minister of State for Mental Health is working very hard at implementing the mental health strategy that the previous government did not fund or plan for. Frankly, my ministry officials are working with the Minister of State for Mental Health, but if she wants the breakdowns, she should rightly discuss it with the Minister of Health Services, who is f

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0311pm-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0311pm 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	97dd02b6058c8484c25f9278e6df1263662d0e37

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).