Manitoba Hansard — 1 February 1990 (Sitting 116, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-116

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Of MANITOBA Thursday, February 1, 1990. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Public Accounts Comm ittee North Portage Development Corp. Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Mann ess). We were encouraged yesterday by the Govern ment 's decision to ask the Provincial Auditor to explore the financial relation ships among this Government, MHRC, and the North Portage Development Corporation.

Will the Min ister go a step further to ensure full public disclosure and acc ountabi lit y by calling a special meeting of the Public Accounts Commit tee so that legislators can ask questions of the president and chief executive officer of the North Portage Development Corporation? Hon. Clayton Marmess (Mini ster of Financ e): The short answer to that question at this time is no. This morning my Deputy, Mr.

Curtis, met with the Provincial Auditor and asked him to ensur e that Manitoba taxpayers receive full value for their investment in the project that has received a fair amount of discussion in this House over the period of the last few weeks. We ha ve pla ced no restrictions, absolu tely no restrictions, I emphasize that, Mr. Speaker, into what matters the Provincial Auditor is to look into. The Provincial Auditor will determine in his wisdom the best scope to put to the internal review. Once that is completed he will submit that to myself, after which time ! will make that public to the Members of this House.

Provincial .Auditor North Portage Development Corp. Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): The Auditor of course is a servant of this Legislature. Could the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Ma nness) tell us what manda te he has given to the Provincial Audit or, whether or not there are written terms of reference, and if he can let us know what timetable the Provincial Auditor will be working under and when we can expect a report to this House? Hon. Manness (Mini ster of Financ e): Mr. Speaker, answered the first question in part. No terms ol reference have been given to the Pri�v11nr.i�1 Auditor.

He is free to look at every matter associated with this issue at his call. We have asked mm we have told him that there are no restrictions. Therefore, he will have full opportunity to review every aspect of the matter. Mr. We appreciate that the Minister has taken this action after some weeks of questioning in the House. Public Accounts Committee North Portage Development Corp. Mr.

Jame s Carr (Fort Rouge): We are still not sure why the Government will not go the extra step to ask the chairman and chief executive officer of the North Portage Development Corporation to app ear in front of a legisla tive committee. We know that the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is particularly int erested in accountabilit y, public accountability and accountability by the politicia ns. So could -(interjection)-Pardon me? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Carr: Could the Mi nister of Finance tell us why he refuses to call a special committee of this Legislature? *

(1335) Hon. Clayton Manness (Mini ster of Fi nance): Firstly, Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate, for the memory of some that may forget, that we were not original signa tories to the agreement at hand. Second ly, Mr. Speaker, the Provincial Auditor has tremendous powers. If he comes to conclusions that are a major concern to him, he has within his power to make a full report to the Legislature di rectly.

If he does that, if he makes a full disclosure directly to the Legisla ture, I then will call Public Accounts Committee at which time the Provincial Auditor will ask to be in attendance and to give fuller explanation to any of his comments. Mr. Carr: Half a loaf is better than no loaf, Mr. Speaker. Canada-M anitoba Tourism Agreement Deadline Extension Mr. Jame s Carr (Fort Rouge): With a new question to the Min ister responsible for Tourism (Mr. Ernst). There has been a fair amount of confusion over the last num ber of days, Mr. Speaker, about the deadline for a federal-provincial project at The Forks.

Jake Epp, in a letter to the Min ister, had said that January 31, yesterday, was the deadline for the Min ister to raise $4.2 million of funds from the private sector. The Mi nis ter has given us indic ations that Thomas Hockin, the federal Min ister responsible for Tourism, had in fact said the deadline was March 31. The Min ister had some dif ficulty getting hold of Mr. Hockin yesterday. I wonder if he could report to the House and tell us if he in fact has gotten a hold of him and what the deadline is. Hon. Jim Ernst (Min ister of Indust ry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, there have been a numb er of dis cussions that have taken place with regard to this matter over the past day, evening and this morning. 489 7

Thursday, February 1, 1990 Mr. Speaker, it has been ind icated to me that February 28 now an appropriate time to consider this particular project which !hen giv es us a month, if it is not going to proceed by tha! point, to find additional projects before the agreement expires. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but think that somehow the wisdom of Solomon is at work here. They split the dif ference. One federal Mi nister said March 31, and the other said January 31, so February 28 it is.-(int erjection)-I would never want to second-guess the wisdom of Solomon. The Forks Development Visitor Centre Funding Mr.

James Carr (fort Rouge): Can the Mi nister report to the House how successful his fund raising efforts have been, and what the total of the commitments have been received to date, so we know how much further he has to go between now and the end of February? Hon. Jim Ernst (M inister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, let me first suggest that while the deadline for the tourism agreement expiry is March 31, it would be inappr opriate for any Government to leave any reconsideration, if some project is not going to proceed, until the last day. It makes, Mr.

Speaker, eminent sense to have a contin gency plan, and this is not the only project contained in that agreement. There are many more, some of which may well not proceed. It behooves us to plan for some contingencies and to give us some time to put that contin gency plan into place. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that we wish the Mini ster well, that we think the project has merit and we hope he is able to raise the mone y - (i nterjection)- Does the Premier not want our supp ort on the project? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement Deadline Extension Mr. James Carr (fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, my final question to the Mini ster of Tourism is, has he had any contact with Mr. Epp over the last 48 hours to discuss this project, and has the Mini ster had a chance to review with Mr. Epp the contents of his letter which now has been thrown out the window and a month's extension giv en to the Mini ster of Tourism? * (13 40) Hon. Jim Ernst (Mi ni ster of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, as I ind icated in the answer to the first question, a numb er of di scussions have taken place yesterday afternoon and last evening and today. Mr. Speaker, we are confident now that we have adequate time to proceed with this project. Public Schools Fund ing Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon}: Mr. Speaker, last year the Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach) annou nced that there would be some $4 1 million additional funding for public schools. Today he annou nced that some $3 1 million would be available, a 20 percent reduction in incr ease in funding to the pub lic schools.

This ann ouncement has drawn criticism from the Manitoba Teachers' Society and- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, this reduction in in crease has -(interjection)-that is what I said. Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order, ple ase; order, ple ase. The 4 Honourable Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie : Mr. Speaker, we all unde rstand nervous laughter when we see it. The fact of the matter is that the Manitoba Teachers' Society and the Manitoba Association of School Trustees have all decried this annou ncement as inadequate.

In fact, I quote from the press release of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees when they say, Manitoba's public schools will be unable to maintain present service levels with the lim ited funding provided by the provincial Government. That is not me saying that. Mr. Speaker, my que stion is to the Mini ster of Educa tion. Where on this Government's list of priorities is the public education system in the Province of Manito ba? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I have to ind icate to the House that I was very pleased to make the annou ncement j this morning with regard to this Government's support � of education in this province. We did something that the former Government did not do. First of all, we did bring together an ed finance review committee that has thoroughly reviewed the finances of this province with regard to education and how we approach funding of schools.

Based on the recommendations that came from that committee and between di scussions with members of the education communit y, we have ascertained that this commitment to funding our public schools is indeed one where there is a balance to maintain the programming that we have throughout this province, and indeed it is not a burden on the overburdened taxpayer already, Mr. Speaker. I think this is a fair announcement. In our meetings this morning that was certainly ind icated to us by many of the Members. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, what hypocrisy.

The tact is that the trustees who deliver education and the teachers who deliver education are telling this Mini ster this is 4898

Thursday, February 1, 1990 woefully inadequate, that it is going to lead in a reduction of service to the education of students in Manitoba. My question is to the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach). Can he now tell us where the money is going to come from to maintain services? How much incr ease are we going to see on special levies on taxpayers throughout this province on properties? How much is the education support levy- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The question has been put. The Hono urable Mini ster of Education and Training. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I find it interesting that all of a sudden the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is asking, where is this money going to come from. He is asking for more mone y. Where does he think the mone y comes from? It comes from local taxpa yers. That is where the money comes from. I would also like to indic ate-I quote from the news release which says: that the trustees appreciate the int ent of increasing grants for transportation, special needs and for di visions with in creased enrol!ment. Mr. Speaker, this is not a condemnation of the report.

As a matter of fact, it is praising the report in terms of the that we have achieved and the fairness that we have achieved in supporting education. Mr. Storie: I would recommend that the Minis ter start by reading the fi rst paragraph of the press release where there is a condemnation of the level of in crease which says: we are going to have cutbacks in service in the education area. Education System Transportation Grants Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, my next question to the Minis ter is: given the ann ouncement today that there will be some transportation grant inc reases, which is positive and particularly for rural school divisions, but given that we are introducing a urban transportation grant, can the Mini ster tell me whether this is a move to get more in line with the Public Schools Finance Board's recommendation that we close commun ity scho ols like Ma rgaret Scott School? Are we going to now develop a policy where students are transported out of their communities and bussed to other areas away from th eir home community?

Is this a consolidation of that policy?

(1345) Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Fi rst of all, when the Memb er was in Government and Min ister of Educa tion, at that time, school divisions the urban centre came to him and some transportation policy with regard to students who were living more than 1.5 kilo metres from His response to them was a flat no. sri?>ilkPr we nave many children, young children from Kindergarten to Grade 3, who have di fficulty i n getting to schools, whether those schools are in the city or in the rural areas. We have made a commitment to treat young students equally throughout the province.

For that reason we have im plemented a policy where we will support them by offering transportation to all students from Kind ergarten to Grade 3 regardless of whether they live in the rural areas or in the urban area. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, I think everyone out there knows, including the parents, that Margaret Scott School and lots of others that are having their schools closed, that this is going to lead to consolidation of elementa ry schools. This Min ister is apparently ready to condemn community schools to oblivion. School Year length Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, my final question to the Min ister, on a dif ferent subject, is: can the Min ister ind icate today when he will announce the fact that he intends to shorten the school year by three days at the recommendation of the tourism ind ustry and at the expense of students and the educational system in Manitoba? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I really wonder where this Member is coming from.

Let me indic ate to you, first of all, that this Member is indicating that we should be building schools when there is adequate space in schools surrounding this particular school, in a half mile radius, where we can accommodate 400 more students. He is advocating that we should build yet another school, and at whose expense? It is at the taxpayers' expense. He has no reason, no rhyme of accountabilit y. With regard to the school year, it was his Government that gave permission to northern school divisions to shorten their school year, not by one or two days, but indeed by three weeks.

We im plemented a policy where these students have to make up their time if their school year is shortened. They still have to put in the same number of hours. When we have developed that policy that he speaks of, I will be pleased to announce it. Education Admi nistrators Cross-Cultural Seminars Mrs . Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Yesterday, in his response to the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles), the Mini ster of Education (Mr.

Derkach) waxed eloquent that, and I quote, "At our commun ity college level we have promoted programs to assure that staff at those institutions understand the im portance of the negative aspects of racial discrimination." Can the Minis ter advise the House if all adminis tration and management personnel are required to attend these cross-cultural seminars put in pla ce in April of 19 89 as a direct result of an unfortunate racial slur? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): That is a matter that is up to the president of that community college to establish, but in deed we 4899

Thursday, February 1, 1990 have encouraged that the presidents have all of their admin istrative staff, all of their senior man agement staff attend such information sessions because they are valuable . They indeed will take away that distasteful kind of slur that has been made previously, and indeed it will help for better relations in our community colleges. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I encourage fully that each administrative person at our community colleges should take

part in the se sessions . Red River Community College Racism Complaint · Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Why then do we hear that a formal complaint has been filed against one of the vice presidents of the college alleging the uttering of racial slurs , obscene and abusively sexist comments? Can the Minister advise us if there is an investigation in place, and as to what action has been taken and how is this investigation going? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Unfortunately in our society , from time to time things of this nature will occur regardless of whether we have in-service programs or training sessions, those things will occur . There has been no establishment whether in fact that event did occur. There is a formal complaint. I have instructed my Deputy Minister to investigate the compla int, to get the best possible person to investigate that complaint and to report back to me. Cross-Cultural Policy Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Will the Minister take some time now to rewrite the policy on multiculturalism at the Red River Community College in light of the obvious lack of success of the past policy? *

(1350) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, there is an ongo ing discussion with members of our society to ensure the policy that we have in place meets the needs . If that policy is not meeting the needs we will amend it as is necessary. Those discussions go on continuously to ensure that in fact situations of this nature do not occur . When they do occur we try to take the best possible action to investigate the authenticity of that complaint and to ensure that corrective measures are taken . Repap Manitoba Inc. Environmental Lobbying Mr. John Angus (St.

Norbert) : This is a quest ion for the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings). Yesterday the First Minister , the Premier (Mr. Filmon), said in Hansard the relation to the contradictions between the Clean Environment Commission Report and the licence that was issued to Repap, but the fact of the matter is the licence was issued totally in accordance with the requirements of the Clean Environment Commission, their report and recommendations. We know that was not accurate. There were a number of changes .

My question to the Min iste r of E nvironm ent i s, between the issuing of the repor t in Novembe r by the Clean Environment Commission and the issuing of the licence at the end of January, was there any lobb ying or any interference or any action on behalf of the company or thei r representatives to you or you r department in relation to the practicalit y of the requirements? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well, Mr. Speaker, obviously when the Liberals do not have any facts they lean toward smearing innocent par ties.

I can assure him there was no lobbying that took place on behalf of the company involved to have this licence changed to any kind of standards that would suit them better . Environment al Licence Change s Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, then perhaps the Minister of the Environment can give an explanation as to why the drastic changes on the toxic emiss ions of acid rain-the difference between the report of the comm ission and the licence that was issued that seriously downgraded the controls? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Changes that are referenced when the licence was put on the public registr y have explanations with them as to the reason for the cha nges being different from the recommendation of the Clean Env iron ment Commission. In each one of those cases they provided reasoning why it would be proper to do so. For example , continuous monitoring of some pollutants is not reliab le; therefore, t he licence will require detailed stack sampling twice a year in conjunction with continuous monitoring. Those are some of the types of changes that were made.

In other instances , where it takes six weeks to turn around a test, why do you need a daily test at enormous costs of operation when it takes six weeks to get the results back? You are better to go to a weekly test because it takes six weeks before you know what is happening in the process. Mr. Angus: Mr. Speaker , there is something that does not jive here . Presumably there a re professionals in the Clean Environment Commission. They succ inctly said they wante d the flow rate monitored, that is the amount of material that goes into the atmosphere.

That part has been specifically dropped from the order and there is no explanation as to why. Why would they ask for a conti nuous monitoring of the flow and why would your department elimin ate that very nece ssar y requirement? Mr. Cummings: The Department of Environment, after receiving any licence , goes through a very detailed process of consultation with technical advisory groups upon the rec ommend ations that are received . In th is case, this is simply a practical application in the best interests of protecting the environment .

If the Members opposite think there is something wrong with being practical, then now we know why they are over t here . 4900

Thursday, February 1, 1990 Occupational Health Centre Privatization Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Workplace Safety and Health (Mrs. Hammond). The Canadian Centre for Occupational Health was created 10 years ago to promote the funda mental right of Canadians to a healthy and safe workplace. The federal Minis ter of Labour is now in the process of privatizing the centre which will have the effect of making workers and employers pay for health and safety data information on how to deal with the workplace situation. Will the Minister of Workplace Safety and Health (Mrs.

Hammond) in dicate what action she and her Government will take to block the privatization of the centre in order to protect all Manitobans to accessi ble information on workplace hazards and how to protect themselves from those hazards? *

(1355) Hon. Gerrie Hammond (M inister of labour responsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, we believe that the federal Government should have continued to fund the centre, but we ha ve appointed a governor who is on a working committee of CCOSH to be sure. They are bringing in a working plan, and the federal Government has extended the funding until the end of March so that business plan can be brought in. Provincial Funding Mr. Harapiak (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, according to a confidential business plan for the privatizing of the health and safety, which was being presented to the federal Minister today, that as part of the five- plan the suggestion was made that funding for centre could be partially provided by the provincial Government. Will the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) now commit to predicating any financial supports in the province being a condition that the centre not be privatized? Gerr ie Ham mond (M inister of labour responsible for Safety and Health}: Mr.

I will await report as it is given to me. we know in Manitoba, something that is very to workplace safety, and I think the Honourable Member kno ws this as well, that centre is 1m1nm·"'"" to what is happening with hazardous m<1te1rials. and we need that centre so I will await the business plan. Free Information Harapiak (The Pas): Speaker, to the what action will the Mini ster take to ensure ail working Manitobans will continue to have access to credible complete neutral information wcir1<rna1cP. hazards regardless of their ability or their employer to pay for that information?

Gerrie Ham mon d (Mi nister of labo ur responsible for Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, was to be part of the plan. 4901 Springhill Farms limited Provincial Commitment Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Agriculture (Mr. Findla

y) and relates to the recent annou ncement regarding Springhill Farms and the deal between the farm and the Olympia Meats in Quebec.-(applause)-Now I appreciate the applause because obviously they are applauding what is, in some respects, a significant loss of jobs. I would like to ask the Mi nister, he and his colleague, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings) and Charlie Mayer seem to have had a very fine photo session during the announcement, but their role was not clear.

My question is to the Mini ster: exactly what role did the province play in this and what obligations has the province assumed in this contract? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, we were very pleased to see th at deal culminated in the Province of Manitoba. There was to be a loss of jobs and complete closing of the plant at the end of February. For the last six to eight months there has been an ongoing process of negotiation to attempt to find some investment or partnership for Springhill wherever it could be found in Canada.

We participated in hiring a negotiator to facilitate that process, and are very pleased to see him bring that process to a conclusion with a very strong partner coming in to Manitoba to take the hogs from Springhill and process them in a brand-new market for Manitoba hogs, some 11 ,000 hogs a week going into the Quebec market, a market we had never tapped before. Mr. Laurie Evans: I guess it is like the old adage, how is your life, and you say it is fine, looking at the alternative. This is what you are faced with here. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. Hog Price Guarantees Mr.

Lau rie Evans (Fort Garry) : Mr. Vaags, the Chairman of Manitoba Pork, has stated that this is a guaranteed long-term contract. I would like to know from the Mini ster what in fact is guaranteed in terms of the numb er of hogs and the prices that will be available for those hogs. * (14 00) Hon. Glen Findlay (Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, in terms of long-term development, it is better to be alive than dead, first off. That is the first thing. In terms of economic development, i 1,000 hogs a week for three years tran slates into 1. 6 million hogs or some $200 million of economic activity for the Province of Manitoba.

Those Members possibly want economic development, and we have delivered in spades for the long term of the hog industry in the Province of Manitoba.

Thursday, February 1, 1990 Hog Ma rket Implications Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, they seem to be taking a great deal of satisfa ction in the loss of jobs and no guarantee of lon g-term security of that plant. My question also to the Mi nister is: in the press release they are indi cating that the contract is outside the normal auction process. I would like to know what that means in terms of the implications of the supply and the price of hogs to other processors in the province. Hon. Glen Findlay (Min ister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, by and large, on the Manitoba market, there are about six bidders. Had Springhill closed, we would have been down to five. Keeping Springhill open, we have six. In the long term, that is strength for the hog ind ustry. They have struck a contr act with the Hog Producers Marketing Board and they are prepared to strike a contra ct with any slaughterhouse or processor if they bring an adequate process forward with regard to that contract. In the terms of long term, this company is the Canadian's largest exporter to the Japan market.

I expect to see them in the long term use that Neepawa plant as a plant to process for the Japanese market, a pure export market for which there will be additional export opportun ity, additional economic activity for the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one is tempted to get into that debate. My question is -(interjection)-80 value-added jobs go to Quebec and everyone cheers. My question is to the Minis ter of Urban Affairs (Mr. Duch arme). I am sure th at all Me mbers in this Chamber- POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease.

The Honour able Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hono urable Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) could be reminded, as he has been reminded a number of times during this Session, as have a few other Members in this House, about what Your Honour has affectionately come to call post-ambles to your

preambles. This Member does this quite often, and I wonder if he could be brought to order for that. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order, the Honourable Go vernment House Leader is qui te correct. The Hon ourable Member for Concordia. Mr. Doer: I apologize to the House for using the flexibility of debate. I do. Mr. Speaker: We accept the Hono urable Member's apology. Urban Planning legislation Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, cit iz ens, I am sure, are phoning all Members of this Chamber, concerned, and rightly so, about the proposed tax incr ease in the City of Winnipeg.

My question to the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) is: we have been saying for a long time that the legislation and planning legislation to deal with urban sprawl must be changed to deal with the total costs that are related to developers developing this city in an unp lanned way that is costing taxpayers millions of dollars. Those proposals have come home to roost.

Why has the Min ister not brought in the planning sections consistent with the White Paper under The City of Winnipeg Act to deal with the inadequacies of planning in the City of Wi nnip eg and the tremendous burden taxpayers will have to face this year, no matter what the final number is at the City of Winnipeg? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Urban Affairs): First of all, Mr. Speaker, this Government and every Government is probably concerned about tax incr eases.

This Government has dealt with our responsibil ities; however, in the question with planning I have instructed, and during the Estimates process I explained to both my critics, that

Part 20 of The City of Winnipeg Act is being dealt with now. We are having people throughout the regional planning committee meeting, I am having meetings with the city, and my adminis tration is meeting with them to come forward at the next Session dealing with

Part 20 of the Act. library Closures Opposition Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Given the fact that we have Bill 62 in the Chamber now, I would ask the Mini ster (1) will he bring those amendments of

Part 20 under Bill 62, which deals with partial planning with the additional zones, and secondly, given the fact that the province giv es over $1 00 million to the City of Winnipeg, will the Min ister be outlining his strong opposition to the City of Winni peg in the proposal to close four libraries in the City of Winnipeg, particularly in the inner city area of the city where of course lit eracy is one of our greatest challenges? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Urban Affairs): First of all, Mr.

Speaker, the part he is referring to, the Bill that is before committee right now, is dealing with the additional zones. However, that has to be clarified, and we would not proclaim that part until the regional people come forward with solutions , too, around those additional zones that the previous administration did nothing about while they were in office. They knew that problem has been going on around the city for the last six, seven, eight, nine years. It has falien apart as a result, and they did absolutely nothing.

To now talk about the lib raries, I do not think the function of this particular Government is to in terfere in the budget process at the time with the city. We 4902

Thursday, February 1, 1990 have various discussions with the city, and I do not think anyone likes to see libraries or pools or any thing to be closed down, but the people at city hall have been elected, 29 of them there. They have to deal with their budget solutions by themselves. Mr. Doer: This province giv es money to the City of Winnip eg and is acc ountable to this Chamb er. Departments give money to libraries in the City of Wi nnip eg through this Legis lature. We ha ve set conditions before as part of our grant to the City of Winnipeg to not close lib raries in the inner city as part of our negotiations.

Why is this Mini ster taking a hands off approach to the possibility of closing li braries? Why will he not use the negotiating muscle, the provincial Government, to ensure that children and other people in the inner city are not denied their opportunities for reading and learning in our library system of Winnipeg? Mr. Ducharme: First of al!- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mr. Ducharme: First of all, the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) is asking this Minis ter to respond to an admin istrative budget.

City councillors themselves 001liti1callv have not determined what their rate incr eases 1990. Also, I will not get involved in the same type of hands-on that the previous administration you can have your transit grants if you refrain from increa sing bus tickets, like they did a couple of years ago. Educational Facilities lnkster Constituency Kevin Lamcmreux (lnl u1ter): have a question for the Mi nister of Education (Mr. Derkach). A lot of the parents and children in my riding are very concerned about the overcrowding in the schools in my area. The Public Finance Board has caused a great deal of this concern.

Speaker, why has the Government faiied to act the five-year plan for capital expen ditures? I can refer to the need to construct a new elementary school the need for a new high school in the northwest area. am wondering the Mi nister of Education can tell me what the Department of Education, through the Public Finance Board, is doing about the concern to alleviate the schools that are bursting at the seams in my constitue ncy. Hon. Leonard Derlull ch (Min ister of Education and Training): Mr. Speake r, the other day the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs.

Yeo) I believe rose to indic ate were we closing down schools in !he inner city and building more schools in the outer regions of the city. Speaker, we understand the need for schools. There is a responsibilit y for every division to lis t their priorities and make those priorities known to the Public Schools Finance Board. There is a five-year plan that is supposed to be outlined by every division for the Public Schools Finance Board. Mr. Speaker, that process is in place. It is fol lowed to the letter of the law by the Public Schools Finance Board. There is no deviation from it. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister should get who is asking the questions proper in the first place. Mr. Speaker, will the Department of Education look into the overcrowding of the schools in the Tyndall Park, Garden Grove, Mead ows West area and act upon the situation immediately, given that there are currently overcrowded schools in my constituency and that come this September we are going to be looking at a crisis situation? There is not a- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The question has been put. The Honourable Min ister of Education and Training. * (1410 ) Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, there is a system in place in the Public Schools Finance Board whereby school divisions who are experienci ng extreme crowding in schools can apply for the facilities. Mr. Speaker, we have what is called a high quality relocatable type of unit which can be constructed very qui ckly in areas where there is overcrowding. It is the school division's responsibility to make those known. If there is a situation where the Public Schools Finance Board has not responded to a school board's request for some reason, I would like the Member to bring that to my attention and I will certainly look into it.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for lnks ter. Mr. Lamoureu x: Mr. Speaker, the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manne ss) treats it as a joke. It is a serious situation in my constit uen cy, and as the ML A, I- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order please. Sisler-Rosser Committee Meeting Request Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for ln kster has the floor. The Honourable Member for lnks ter. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, will the Minis ter of Education (Mr.

Derkach) meet with the Sisler Rosser committee, which represents over 6,000 students in the northwest area, which is a signi ficant portion of the total school population in Winni peg No. 4903

Thursday, February 1, 1990 1? Will he sit down and address the needs of the north end? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the school board of which the Member speaks has not made a request to meet with me with regard to that particular situati on. I do not even know if they have requested to meet with the Public Schools Finance Board on that matter. Mr. Speaker, what do the Liberals want? They want us to build schools where there are no children. They want us to build schools where there are growing needs. I wish they would identify their priorities and their policies.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Manitoba Medical Association Negotiations Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is to the Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard), and it is in regard to the im passe that has been reached in negotiations between the Mini ster and the doctors of this province. On Tuesday, November 28-this was outlined in the speech I tabled, the Government refused to release the Min ister indi cated th at he wa s is su ing the Government's final offer to the MM A.

What I would like to ask the Mini ster is, what negotiations took place prior to Tuesday, November 28 and that final offer, and what negotiations have taken place since, since we are dealing with a very serious situa tion. The contra ct is up the end of March and we are faced with a possible strike situation. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Heal th): Mr. Speaker, my hon ourable friend answered his own question. The cont ract with the MMA does not expire until March 31. Secondly , meetings are scheduled with the negotiating team, Civil Service Commission, and MHSC.

Thirdly, if we follow the record set by the previous Government, we have 11 months after the expiry date of the contract in which to achie ve a settlement. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccr ae (Government House leader): Mr. Speaker, in the Cham ber today the Estim ates of the Department of Education and Trai ning are under consideration, and in Room 255 the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Mi nister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a matter of grievance. Mr. Speaker, today in asking the questions it has caused me a great deal of concern that the Mi nister of Education (Mr. Derkach) would belittle what I feel is something that is very im portant in my constituen cy. I attend a lot of functions in my riding.

I lis ten to what the residents that put me into this Chamber's concerns are, and one of the major issues that they continue to bring up to me, time after time after time, is the seriousne ss of the overcrowding in our schools. The Mini ster of Education has said that it is completely up to the school division -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Honourable Members wishing to carry on their private conversations can do so outside the Cham ber. The Honourable Member for lnk ster has the floor. The Honourable Member for lnks ter. Mr. Lamoure ux: The Min ister of Education (Mr.

Derkach), as I have pointed out, has tried to belittle it by saying that it is not part of my responsibility to ask questions of this nature because in fact it is the school board that puts it in terms of a priority to the Public Finance Board. The Public Finance Board, which is appointed by the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), has already caused a great deal of concern to the constituents in my area. Earlier in 1989 the school board, Public Finance Board, was to build and construct portables to Stanle y Knowles School.

Because of the late action taken by the Public Finance Board , ma ny of the students who were atten ding Stanley Knowles School in 19 89 were in fact atten ding that school for part of the day and having to go to another school for another part of the day, Mr. Speaker, because the Public Finance Board was not able to reach a decision in a much quic ker fashion, not able to bring forward to the schools to meet the school's needs in order to accommodate the surging elementary population in my area. Mr. Speaker, it is not in the best int erests of the kids.

We had Grade 8 children who were being bussed between Stanley Kno wles School and Sisler High School, and there is a major di fference between going from a high school to an elementary school. The reason why this was taking place was because of the Public Finance Board's inability to ensure that the portables were there in a better time period. As a result, we had things of that nature taking place. I want to go over this afternoon some of the options that the school board is now faced with because, in part, of what actions the Government has failed to take. I would like to go through a few of those options.

If we look at Option 1, it is suggested that they move Grade 7 and 8 French Immersion students from Stanle y Knowles School to Sisler High School again. To bring elementa ry school children into high schools, it is a totally di fferent atmosphere. It was not that long ago 4904

Thursday, February 1, 1990 when I was in a high school, just under 10 years, and the atmosphe re in a high school is much more freewheeling. It can be extremely intimidating to those who are going there in Grade 9, but to put elementary or what should be elementary children into a high school situa tion, it is a totally di fferent type of an atmosphere. This is one of the options that is being conside red as Option 1. That is Component 1 of Option 1. Component 2 is that portable classrooms would be required at Garden Grove and Meadows West Schools also.

That is in addition to moving Grades 7 and 8 over to Sisler High School. (Mr. Neil Gaud ry, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Option 2 is to move Grade 8 English students from Stanle y Knowles School to Sisler High, which will make available some six classrooms. Portable classrooms would still be required at the Garden Grove and Meadows West Schools. Mr. Acting Sp eaker, the portables that would be required under this particular option and in fact under Option 1 have not even been started yet. Will they in fact be able to have the classrooms in place come September 1 when the school year begins?

We saw last year they were not able to do that, and as a result they had children going in di fferent parts in di fferent schools, to one for part of the morning and in the afternoon going to another school. Mr. Acting Speaker, Option 3 is really something that a person must take with a bit of salt and grin with. This what they are proposing as an option to the parents and children in the riding, and that is to postpone a decision regarding Stanley Kno wles School and tolerate overcrowding for another year.

They are admitting that we have overcrowding in the school, and they are going to have to put up with overcrowding for another year. That is not in the best in terest of the child ren that are atten ding this particular school in my riding. *

(1420) When the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach) says it has nothing to do with us in this Chamber I think it is irresponsible of the Min ister of Education, especially when you take a look at what the Winnipeg No. 1 School Division suggested in July 4, 1988, in their five-year plan for capital building projects. We will take a look at what they had suggested.

In new schools, in buildings or additions to existing and demolition of old facilities the first priority, in terms of a new school, was to construct a new elementary school in the northwest end of the cit y, in the Me adows West development Phase 2, year of minis terial approval was be expected in 1989. That was priority one in terms of a new school being built in my riding or in the northw€5t area. Priority two in terms of additional new construction of schools was a new high school in the northwest area, Mr. Speaker.

If we take a look at the catchment areas what is expected, or what Stanley Knowles and other elementary schools are feeding into in terms of a school after they graduate and then they go int o high schools, we are looking at Sisler High with a population currently of 1,320 approxi mately has 10 feeder schools with a total population of 4,800. How does that compare with other school divisions? If we take a look at Gordon Bell School, a high school that has 875 students, we have feeder schools with populations of 2,910.

If we take a look at the combination of Daniel Mac and Tech Voc, Daniel Mac with 1,200 and Tech Voc with approximately 1,250, they have feeders of 6,0 18 . Those are two high schools the same equi valent size of Sisler High. If we take a look at Elmwood High, 800 student population, it has five feeder schools with 1,370. Mr. Acting Speaker, what I am trying to point out is if you take in terms of the proportion of Sisler High and the number of elemen tary schools that feed into it, it is way out of proportion in the rest of Winnipeg No. 1. Why is this problem not being addressed?

We can look at what is anticipated. It refers to the era in which the child ren attend these schools. We look at 1991, 19 92 cl assroom requi rements. New houses are continuing to be built in the Garden Grove, Stanley Knowles and Meadows West catchment area. It is antici pated that additional students from this area will begin to have a major im pact on Stanley Knowles by September, 1991. Mr. Acting Speaker, what is being done with Stanle y Knowles this year? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): A great deal has been done. Mr.

Lamoureux: The Min ister of Natural Resources says a great deal has been done. Mr. Acting Speaker, there is no doubt the school board is trying their best in order to facili tate the demand for new school facilit ies but the Mi nister of Education (Mr. Derkach), who appoints the members of the Public School Board of Finance, is not treating it in a manner in which it deserves. Why is this Government not recognizing or feel that they have no responsibility when it comes to the education of the people of Manitoba? Mr. Enns: It is not true. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Speaker, the Min ister of Natural Resources says that is not true. He was here when I had asked the question from the Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach). The Mi nister of Education says that this is not maybe the best question to ask on this platform. Some of his colleagues suggested that I should run for school trustee.

I find it un believable that as the sitting MLA representing this area, in raising an issue and a concern that is on the top of the minds or a priority in the minds of many of my constituents, that this Government would suggest to me that I have no busine ss, no right, telling this Chamber what is their concern. That is un acceptable. It is un believable that a Government can take that type of attitude. Mr. Acting Speaker, getting back, including in Option 3, it also has, portable classrooms would still be required at Garden Grove and Meadows West School. The Public School Finance Board is aware of the situation.

I am hoping that if by chance they do not realize the 4905

Thursday, February 1, 1990 im portance of this because of the Min ister of Education who appointed them, that the Mini ster of Education will read what I have said and give a very strong message to the Public Finance Board so the Public Finance Board cannot say that they are not aware of the situation. That is in part the reason why I felt it was necessary to stand here and grieve today, to ensure that the Min ister of Education cannot state that he was not aware of the situation in the northwest end. Mr.

Acting Speaker, if we take a look at the growth in the City of Winnipeg, we look at where housing is being built, you will find that in my riding, the Member for Kildonan's (Mr. Cheema) riding, which is right beside mine, that it is an area of the city in which there is a tremendous amount of growth. There is a responsibil ity for Governments, whether it is a civic school trustee, a provincial, to be aware of what is going on in the province.

If there is a need, a real justified need, the Government should be taking action to ensure that whatever takes place is in the best in terest of all the students in the Province of Manitoba. It is not the sole responsi bility of the school board to ensure that there is adequate education to the chil dren of this province. It is not the sole responsibil ity of ours to ensure that there is adequate education to the children of our province. It is in most part, I hope and believe that it is the school board that ulti mately will be making the decisions that will be putting forward the priorities.

I believe Winnipeg No. 1 has done that. In their five-year capital expenditure plan they have pointed out 17 priorities. The first two priorities in terms of new school construction was an elementa ry and high school in the northwest corner of the City of Winnipeg. The second priority overall was to replace Ma rgaret Scott and demolish the building. The Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach) says that it is not the Mini ster of Education, it is not the Public Finance Board that decides the polic y, that in fact it is the school board.

How wrong the Min ister is, because the Mini ster should know full well that it is the Public Finance Board that can very easily di ctate policy if the Public Finance Board refuses to give the funds. If the Public Finance Board decides that they are not going to provide the funds for a decision that is made by the school board, the school board can either opt on its own, and I am not even too sure if they can afford to opt on their own, or reverse the stand, or a preference that they would like to go to.

For the Mi nister of Education to say that the province has no role in terms of policy when it comes to the education system regarding the construction of new schools, the Mini ster of Education is dead wrong. The Mi ni ster of Education said that, he said that in a very roundabout way, he was im plying, the Mini ster of Education was implying that it is the school board that makes the policy decisions.

The Mi nister of Education was wrong, and if he had any-what is the word? guts, he would stand up today and say that in fact the Public Finance Board does di ctate what is going to happen when it comes to what schools are going to be built and what schools are going to be rebuilt. The Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach) is not doing the things -(interjection)-the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) asked me if things are slipping. Under this Government I think maybe things have been slipping.

I can assure the Min ister of Finance that whatever does come up in the constituenc y, I will as the local representative ensure that this Government is aware. It does not have to be solely provincial jurisdiction. It can be municipal, it can be federal, it can be provincial. * (14 30) What the constituents of ln kster want me to do is what I will do, because after all they are the ones that put me into this Chamber, and I plan to represent them in the best way I can.

Cont rary to what the Mini ster of Finance says, I feel that the best way to represent them is to ensure that the feelings of my constituents are brought to this floor so that the Government, and in particular the Min ister of Education in this particular case, is aware of the problems, of the crisis that is going on in my riding in terms of overcrowding in the schools. Mr. Acting Speaker, if we would like to go to the next option, option 4, requests portable classrooms from Public Schools Finance Board for Garden Grove and Meado ws West School.

Option 5, combination of options outlined above and options provided by the admini stration. The school board is desperate. The school board wants the Public Finance Board to come up- ***** The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): The Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard), on a point of order. Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I am deeply enthralled with my honourable friend's grievance, but I und erstand that Education Estimates are on right now and in stead of wasting the time of the House, he could dis cuss all of these matters with the Min ister direct and get answers during the Estimate process instead of wasting valuable time of the House. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): The Mini ster does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. (i nterjection)- Order, please. ***** Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Speaker, the Mini ster of Health is right in a sense that, yes, I can ask questions. My preference is that we have a concurrence, that the critic of Education has plenty of questions for the Mi nister of Education to answer. We would hope that the Mini ster of Educ ation can keep his answers somewhat brief, but when concurrence comes there is no doubt I will have an opportunity to put forward these questions. Let me gi ve advance noti ce to the Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach).

The Mini ster of Educa tion, after what he has heard today from my grievance, will be hopefully better prepared to answer the questions that I might put to him during concurrence. This is a 4906

Thursday, February 1, 1990 very good way so the Min ister of Education can be very well prepared. When I put forth some questions regarding this particular issue, hopefully the Mini ster of Education will be able to bring forward some good, quality answers. I must admit I have been listening to some of his answers, and the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) brings up a very good point. He sure knows how to bafflegab. I am not too sure he is very good at answering the questions direct.

Hopefully with the comments he has heard today, when I do put forward the questions he will in fact come forward with some good, legitima te, conc ise an swers, because it is something that has to be addressed. I am glad to see the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has agreed, in a roundabout way, that it is a valid concern to raise in this Chamber because he has done so by suggesting that I should be asking it in Esti mates. Mr. Acting Speaker, had we had unli mited time ins tead of a cap of 240 hours, I am sure we could ask 240 hours on education alone. I am sure we could. If the Mini ster of Health (Mr.

Orchard) and the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Manness) want to agree that we can do that, am sure the Critic for Education on both the official Opposition and the third Party would be more than happy to accommodate expanding the 240 hours. I love to be able to ask all the questions I could regarding this issue, and a multitude of other questions I would have regarding other departments that effect, not only the constituents in my riding, but also the constituents of many Members' ridings. The Acting Speaker (M r. Gaudry): Order, please. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Speaker, if we look at some of the actual num bers-or before I do that, I wanted to highlight from the Act what I belie ve really does need to be improved in some mann er. I am referring to The Public Schools Finance Board Act. It stipu lates that the public schools finance board consisting of not more than five persons appo in ted by the Lieutenant Govemor-in-Council continued as a body corporate. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I am not too sure if the Mini ster of Educa tion-and maybe he could take this question as notice if he wants to take it as a question -is the actual makeup of this board, and in what way would they ensure that they are fully addressed? How are they aware of the actual things that are going on in dif ferent areas of the City of Winnipeg? On what criteria did he use in selecting that particular board? say that because the board does dic tate policy to school boards. It does it through approving and dis proving requests from the school divisions.

I am somewhat concerned about the treatment of School Division 1 and the Public Finance Board, Mr. Acting Speaker, is really doing what is in the best in terests School Division No. 1. Mr. Speaker, I have learned a lot in this last week to find out or get to the bottom of what ii is that is really the problem in terms of schools that are being overcrowded. I have talked to Winni peg No. 1 school trustees, I have talked to representativ es from 4907 the Min ister's office, from the Public Finance Board, your special assistant. The Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach) wanted to know who.

I hope he was a trustworthy person to talk to. I trust he is. Actually, I belie ve his name was Dave McGill. I think he is a special assistant for the Mini ster of Education, a very nice person, and I commend the Mini ster of Education on what I think is a very good selection. He was very ac commodating in terms of trying to help me un derstand what the situation actually is. * (14 40) Mr. Acting Speaker, what I was really trying to do was to find out how a school capacity of schools can fluctuate depending on the circumstances. I have heard the capacity of Sisler High as high as 1,675.

I have seen reports where it showed it at 1,300. It was beyond me how a capacity could actually change when the physical structure did not change, and through a combina tion of talking to several people, what I came up with is that Stanley Knowles School, the building itself can be at a capacity of 1,000 where it currently is right now. The exact same structure or facility could be in any other area of the province and the capacity could be at 900. The capaci ty, Mr. Acting Speaker, is determined in most part through classroom utilization.

The classroom utilization is usually decided in part through the principal who submits it through to the superintendent and the capacity is decided, from what I understand, on that basis. What I found somewhat interesting is, if we look al a report that I did receive, in particular on Stanley Knowles, we will see that they had a capacity of 1, 11 3; that is full-time equiv alents. If we take a look at what the Public Finance Board uses as capacity , you will find that industrial arts, music rooms and science rooms are not necessa rily taken into account in using capaci ty. The Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) shakes his head. This is the Public Finance Board that gave me the information. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Mi nister of Education and Training): Are you suggesting we change our criteria? Mr. Lamoureux: No, I am not suggesting at all that we change it, Mr. Acting Speaker. The Mini ster of Education should finish listening to what I have to say maybe before he think s or tries to think what I am going to be sayi ng.

If we have 1, 11 3 students as a capacity and we use what Stanley Knowles is using to get that 1, 11 3 capaci ty, you will see that in this particular document that I have before me, it shows that they are including four: ind ustrial arts, home economic labs, elementary music lab, a computer education lab. That is some six rooms. Six rooms, and you can times it by 25 and you will find that its capacity, according to Public Finance Board, would likely be below 1,000. There are more than 1,000 students at that school.

If it goes over in terms of criteria, what type of criteria does the Public Finance Board require in order to have a new school built? It basically looks at the number of students, capacity and the viabi li ty. It looks at the

Thursday, February 1, 1990 area, if there is growth. There is growth in the area. If we look at the near or at cap acity, we will find that not only Stanley Knowles but other elementary schools in the same area are also in and around or over capaci ty. From what I can understand in the information that I have received from the Public Finance Board and from the school division and from the Rosser-Sisler Committee, it appears to be that inde ed there is a justified need to have a school now, a new school, an elementary school and high school in the area.

That does not surprise me because in the five-year projection, as I point ed out, it was suggested tha t by 19 89 construction of a new elementary school in the north west area. It singles out Meadows West development, the Phase 2, Mr. Acting Speaker, what was known as the Phase 2 component has not gone in the manner in which it was ini tially intended, but the construction of new homes around that area has proceeded so there is that need. The intent here, from School Di vision No. 1, was to see a new school in 1989, or at least minis terial app roval for this school in 19 89. Mr.

Acting Speaker, what has happened is that we will find that this year, come September, we are going to be in a very serious situation in the northwest corner, in particular the catchment areas of Stanley Kno wles, Garden Grove and Tyn dall Park schools. Mr. Acting Speaker, there just is not enough space, physical space, in the rooms to accommodate what the numb ers that I have been given. I believe that come September 1, we are going to have children and not enough classrooms to put the children into.

One option, even though it was not lis ted on this particular item, and the option that I was referring to actually comes from the chairperson of the Building and Transportation Committee of Winnipeg No. 1. One of the options that they did not list, but was included, was transporting child ren that live west of Tallman Avenue over to Lord Nelson School, which is a fair di stance away.

When people move into a new area with anticipation that there are going to be schools, when they are given the im pression that there are schools around them that their children are going to be able to attend, they inv est what for most people is their greatest in vestment, their home. The single greatest in vestment is one's home. They are hoping that the children that they have are able to attend the local schools in that area. Mr. Acting Speaker, we have a situation where the schools are in fact bursting at the seams, in particular, Stanley Kno wles School. It cannot facilitate any more students.

The request and the position that we are putting the school board, the principals, the teachers and so forth in is not fair. It is not appropriate. One of the chairpeople of the local parent councils in the area suggested to me that when Stanley Knowles, as it stands right now and it has 10 portables, if they were to have a staff room meeting that all of the staff would not necessarily be able to fit in a comfortable fashion at all in the staff room, because the staff room was not built to accommodate the numb er of staff that are now at that school. The reason for that, Mr.

Acting Speaker, is because of the large numb er of portables. When the Public Finance Board agrees to have a school built they are supposed to take many things into account. One of those things is what they would believe or perceive is going to be the capacity of that core area, the area such as the gymnasiu m, your library and your staff room can facilitate.

When that is taken into account the num ber of portable s should not exceed tha t, because the moment you start exceeding the ini tial intent of that school's facilitation, the more you are going to take away class time for the gymnas ium, li brary use, other labs and so forth. When we build a school, that has to be taken into account. That is one of the answers that I have not been able to get yet. What was the initial intent of how ma ny child ren were the y planning on going to a particular school? Mr. Acting Speaker, the Sisler High School was at one time a capacity of 1,675.

Reverend Ray Cooper, who was a chairperson of the Sis ler-Rosser group, was well familiar with the situation there At the time, so I have been told-not only by him, but by others-that it was an intolerable numb er of chil dren to have at one school, that there was literally chaos in the hallways. You can only have so many people in a hallway when that recess bell goes. You might be able to get and jam pack as many rooms, and take away the study rooms, or whatever might be the case, in order to accommodate more people into a school, but the hallways are only so wide and the facilities are very limited.

If we do not either in crease or build onto the school, you cannot bring the school up to an un bearable num ber. Mr. Acting Speaker, the number that I have heard is in fact unacceptable, of 1,675. I gave you earlier the comparison of other high schools in the catchment area. I do not know the actual square footage, but I belie ve 1,675 is in fact overdoing it-I only have two min utes left. I un derstand that the Premier (Mr. Filmon)-and maybe this is a good way to end -attended Sisler High School.

I would suggest that the Premier of the province once again return to Sisler High, look at the conditions, and give his opinion on what he feels the population of Sisler High should be, and look at the facilities that Sisler High has. * (14 50) Mr. Acting Speaker, in my last minute to conclude, I do believe that as the ML A representing the area that I am in place to bring forward what many of my constituents perceive to be the No. 1 concern. I am hoping by bringing it forward today that the Min ister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) and other Members of the Government will take this matter very seriously and work with School Division No. 1 or assist School Division No. 1, which is the largest school division. School Division No. 1 trustees have a tremendous loaa, and if we can be of assistance to them, I would suggest that we do that. I would not want to walk over or suggest that the School Division No. 1 school trustees are doing a bad 4908

Thursday, February 1, 1990 job, but I do believe as the sitting ML A that I should be conveying the concerns, the real beliefs, and the problems in my riding. I hope I have done that in an appropriate fashion here today. Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Speaker, for the time. QUES TION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supp ly to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Minn edosa (Mr. Gi lleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources; and the Honourable Member for St. Bonif ace (Mr.

Gaudry) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. * (1 500) CONCURRENT COM MITTEES OF SUP PLY SUP PLY-NATURAL RESOURCES Mr. Chairman (Harold Gill es hamme r): ! call this meeting to order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. We will commence with item 3. Engineering and Construction. The Honourable Min ister. Hon. Harry Erms (Mini ster of Natural Re sources): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I, for convenience sake, can recommend to commit tee Mem bers to deal with Engin eering and Construction and Water Resources in this same go-around.

They tend to overlap in terms of their responsibil ities, and I make that recommendation in any event. Mr. Chairman: Item 3. Engineering and Construction (

a) Admi nistration:

(1) Salaries, $546,400 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures, $248,700- pass; 3.(

b) Technic al Services:

(1) Salaries, $1 ,648,200- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures, $97,400-pass.

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations, $55,000-the Member for St. Norbert John Angus (St. Norbert): Is this recoverable from the federal Government? What is this recoverable from? Mr. Enns: I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that in this case is recoverable from other departments. There are other agreements though that are shareable by the federal Govern ment. Mr. Chairman: That item is passed. Item 3.(

c) Regional Engineering Services: (

i) Salaries, $3,773,300 -the Member for Selkirk. Gwen Charl es (Selkirk): When you are speaking of Regional Engi neering Services, has any of this, salaries or monies, gone into prelimin ary studies for the Conawapa Dam? Mr. Chairman, none of these monies are in any way related to the hydro development specifically referred to by the Member, the Cona wapa Dam. These regional services relate to water and water related 4909 problems and assisting the mun icipalities who request engineering and survey and design information. There are some requests from us from forestry for assistance.

We operate, for instance, among other things, two substantial greenhouses. So they are all related to our own governmental and/or municipal services when called upon. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass. Item 3.(c)

(2) Other Exp enditur es, $1, 01 7, 300 -pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations, $325,000- pass. Resolution No. 107: RESOL VED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exce eding $6,95 1 ,300 for Natural Resources, Engin eering and Construction, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1990- pass. Item 4. Water Resources (

a) Admi nistration:

(1) Salaries, $395,700-the Member for Selkirk. Mrs. Charles: Mr. Chairperson, there is no doubt that it makes it difficult in asking questions on this budget in that it was last year's budget in every sense of the word. Last year showed that in many parts of the province, especially the southern agricultural area, how limited we are in water resources. There have been many issues that have resulted because of that.

Can the Min ister indicate what the prognoses are for this coming year at the given rate of snowfall that has covered the land and what type of water supplies are we looking for this spring and summer, given the current trend right now? Mr. Enns: The Member raises an important point. We are encou raged at this time of the year by the tact that we have better moisture conditions both in snowfall and rain, I guess.

My department is particularly pleased that much of this snowfall and incr eased amounts of snowfall are in northern Manitoba, which hopefully will continue and will enable us to app roach the coming summer season with a greater degree of confidence in terms of the overall fire situation which, even going into the fall, was still conside red critical by departmental staff. We watch and monitor very carefully the amounts of sno wfall that are being recorded throughout the province.

In general, all I can say is that I think a report from the weather office has indicated that we are at this particular time normal or indeed slightly above normal, and that of course has not been the case for several years running. We hope that will continue. The land needs it. Mrs. Cha rles: Let us hope the trend continues. We do not want flooding this spring, which would be an obvious considera tion, given the fast winter that we had, without much cover, and the deep frost I am sure we have.

If waters come and snow melts quickly this spring, we could go into a flooding situation, but let us consider !he best continues. I would ask the Mini ster if it is appropriate under this general

section to ask about such things as the Assiniboine delta aquifer in this section. The Mini ster ind icates okay.

Thursday, February 1, 1990 I und erstand that the Minis ter has met with the citizens groups out there, and they have formed a committee that the citizens seem quite pleased with. I appreciate the Min ister's attention to the concerns of the residents, but an ongoing concern of the areas seems to be circling around the fact that irrigation is not taking place with full consideration for the im pacts it has on the water table itself.

I wonder if the Mini ster could update us on what type of extended plans are going to take place to ensure that irrigation lic ences are sought in all cases, that they are app roved for water quantities, that the times that the irrigation takes place is restricted to hours where there will be less evaporation, types of weather where less evaporation will take place in times of low water tables, and perhaps any other items that the Mini ster could expound upon in order to catch us up to date on the Assiniboine delta aqui fer. Mr.

Enns: The Member touches on a point that is of consid erable concern to the dep artment and this particular division. We are the responsible Government department that, on the one hand, is responsible for and provides the licensing of, or the allocation of available waters, as we do throughout the province. When a commodity becomes scarce, as you would expect, then the competition for the same in creases and its value incr eases. The Member is correct that not so long ago I had the occasion to meet with a group of concerned citizens from that area.

Part of the concern, of course, results from a proposal that is before us to di vert some waters from the Assiniboin e-Carberry aquifer to the Plumas area, where for several years running now we have had a critical water shortage. I receive poignant letters from individuals who remind me of the fact that they are, and have been, hauling water not only for their cattle, but for their domestic use as well for the last several years. The situation cries out for some resolution.

This department participated with others in the proposal that we felt could relieve that water-short area by a diversion of some waters from the Carberry aquifer. * (1 510 ) This met with considerable concern, as the Member is well aware, of those citizens living on or near the aquifer that felt that under these circumstances of drought that they have experienced for the last several years that under no circumstances should any waters be div erted from that area to another area. They have requested Government to seek alternative means of supplying that area with water.

I can report to committee Members, that is precisely what is being undertaken through the Department of Rural Development. An engineering firm is at this time studying the matter further and is sche dule d to report, I und erstan d relatively soon. In the meantime, this dep artment is also the department that provides the lic ences for the irrigators that the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Cha rles) responds to. I am informed that all lic ens ees are currently operating within the conditions of their licence, and at this time there are no specific complaints before the department.

I must also advise Members of the committee that we are however not, and refusing to license some 20 to 23 additional operations who are actually waiting for this licensing approval. We just feel that under the circumstances we have to take into consideration the deep concern expressed by the di fferent groups of citizens on both sides of this question.

It is really my hope that the aquifer advisory or management group that I ind icated and am in the process of establishing, I would hope within a relatively short period of time, mid -February towards the end of February, we would have that advisory board in place. Officials of my department advise me that it has proven out to be successful in other jurisdictions, all too often im plemented too late when it has become a problem to such an extent that ground water is harder and harder to obtain.

We hope that we can, under the advice of this advisory board, institute the kind of conditions to existing licensees and future licens ees that will meet the general approval of the citizen in the area and that will in the main also educate more people in the area as to the nature of the resource. There is skepticism quite frankly on the part of many people who simply are not prepared to accept the advice of outside experts. It has been pointed out to me that outside experts, if proven wrong, onl y have their opinions proven wrong.

People living on the aquifer may find themselves without water, and that carries some weight with me. I am prepared, even though find myself and certainly officials within the department find themselves, between two kind of hard positions. On the one hand, we have allowed and encouraged inde ed the development of wells with the prospect of having them duly licensed, and we have now placed a moratorium on them. I am working co-operatively with the other Mini ster involved , princi pally the Min ister of Rural Development (Mr. Penner), the Mini ster of Environment (Mr. Cummings) to try to resolve this issue.

A great deal of this issue will eventually be resolved as we apply better management techniques to how we treat our water resources in a complete way.

By that I mean that we do the necessary remedial work on small creeks that are in the area to ensure that not all is lost in the fast spring runoff, that we can demons trate that we are recharging the aqu ifer to the fullest extent possible and indeed even maybe some, in the future, larger works that would incr ease the flows of the Assiniboine through that area that would incr ease the level of confidence of people who could then sit down and accept the kind of sharing of that resource within the broader commun ity. Mrs.

Charles: I would like to congratulate the Min ister and his department on slowing down this process and the willing ness to take a second look at I know I di ffer wi th the NOP on this, but I do not think when you are dealing with the importance of an aquifer that if there is any doubt, you should rush ahead with it. I apprecia te that this Govern ment has in this particular case taken the time to give it a second look. 4910

Thursday, February 1, 1990 I hope this engineering study that comes out will be taken to the people and let them really know and unde rstand what the study says before it is impo sed upon them. Whether it be for them or against them th ey should really pa rtici pate in the study and und erstand it before it goes throu gh, because in attending the hearings, the Environment hearings in the area, it was very discouraging for the people there.

I could feel it myself in that we had a lot of your staff stand up and explain scientifically what was happening in the aqu ifer, and yet these people who live there and can see the results on a day-to-day basis, which always did not seem to jiv e with what the so-called experts were sayi ng, trying to put their argument forward and yet having no statistics or figures and com prehens ive studies to back up what they were sayi ng. Yet they had their hi story and their knowledge behind them which should have had equal im portance, but because of the process system, were not able to hold the same weight.

They went away feeling not as participant in the environ mental hearin g, and I appreciate tha t the Mi nister has taken the time to go back to them and allow them to have some input into what the Min istry will be doing, and as well on the way I think educating both sides, both the public and the department itself, and hopefully come to an understanding. My question to the Mini ster though is on the present irrigation licences that are out there. What are the monitoring methods on the irrigation licen ces out there?

Is there control on each irrigation pump that ind icates how much water is being used, and does someone actually physically check the irrigation licence in order lo make sure that no more pumps have cropped up, shall we say, under the one licence?

Enns: i appreciate what the Member is sayi ng, and certainly that very point has been brought to my attention, that even under the giv en licensings and the conditions attached thereto, the degree of supervision, monitoring, in the minds of some citizens is less than adequate, and the suggestion that there have been breaches or illegal extensions to the licence in terms of amounts and how that water is being used. I have to believe that the department responds to specific complaints when they are received. think there is always room for im provement, particularly in this area.

Obviously it is not possible to have a staff person from Water Resources sit on top or be in the proximity of every well while it is pumping, and situations can be abused. Experience has taught us that it becomes a much more und erstood and controlled situation when the local community is provided with a forum, in this case the forum is the one that I have already referred to-is there to immed iately, at the local level, ensure that have a hand in formulating and in writing the and the conditions and the licensings.

These kinds of concerns are brought to me: is water being prudently used; is it necessary for them to use the amounts !hat even they are currently licensed for; should there not be restrictions put in place when we enter into prolonged drought periods; should irrigation take place, under certain circumstances, not at high noon because of the loss through evaporation? 4911 There are many modifications, refinements, to how the precious resource water is used by irrigators that people are legiti mately questioning.

I will be attempting to make the to be formed acquifer advisory committee very much aware that these are the kind of broad things that I am looking for, their direct involvement. We have staff monitoring the wells from time to time on a fairly regular basis. More specifical ly, we simply do not have the kind of staff to do more than to respond when a specific complaint is received. Mrs.

Charles: There is no gauge then on the pump for irrigation that you can tell how many litres, or whatever the measurement would be, of water used per season, or per whatever time frame you wished, so you could regulate and at the very least know what quantities these irrigators are using? * (15 20) Mr.

Enns: I am advised that many of them have, but not all-I think despite the fact that we have had irrigation in place for some time in Manitoba, but irrigation has not been a big thing in Manitoba, and as long as the question of availability of sourcing of water there were not those kinds of pressures on how that water was being used. That is all changing and changing rapidly right now. I think we will see a considerably sophis ticated and in some in stances more restrictive but hopefully a more prudent use of those water suppl ies that we have. Mrs.

Charles: I just find it strange that as I recall, and correct me if I am wrong, but on the list of users of a water resource irrigators are one of the lowest, if not the lowest, on the levels of who gets to use the water first. In this drought year where many of the farmers for agricultural purposes for feeding liv estock were having to dig deeper dugouts out there or remove their cattle, especially when the irrigation pumps worked up, the irrigators in this opportunity seemed to be overtaking the usage of the agricultural purposes, which is contrary to the listing that is within your department.

I guess I am just wondering whether gauging it would not be more appropriate so you could at least have some standard by which to say who has used so much water, especially for the irrigators, that you could limit them or at least have some ind ication of their need. Further from that I also hear that in many cases as their dugouts are going dry the irrigators are running water into ditches, that they have overwatered so much in some cases that it is running off.

You can certainly , as a farmer yourself, understand the anger it must give you and certainly those people when they are having to have their cattle search for water and the farm next door is running water into puddles. I am certain that does not happen all the ti me. I do not mean to ind icate that the irrigators are irresponsible. That cannot be true for all of them for all times. Those type of circumstances do not help any agreement on an aquifer or any water usage when you have two people

Thursday, February 1, 1990 trying to work a living and one seeming to abuse and the other trying to seek for that source and get adequate levels of it. Mr. Enns: I really cannot take issue with anything the Mem ber for Selkirk says. What it all points out to is that after several successive years of drought we have all become much more app reciat ive of water or concerned about the amounts and indeed the lack of it. I am advised that to clarify an earlier question the Member had, that it is now required from each licens ee to record the rate and total volume used throughout the year.

That is an annual drawdown that the user, that licens ee takes from the aquifer. I suspect that is what I mean when I say that this is the first steps to further regulation as to the use of water for the people that are concerned , watching how this resource is being used, that may not be good enough in the future, that they will want to have more refined and more specific regulations rather than simply recording the annual drawdown of a particular well or licensee from the aquif er.

What it does of course though, it provides the department with the kind of information that gives us the ability and the confidence to know what water withd rawals are occurring from that aquif er. We also have the kind of information as to the levels that it is being recharged. That gives us overall management capability of the aquifer on a year-to-year basis. It again obviousl y, and I know what the Member refers to, does not necessarily mean that there are not fluctuations within the year that cause concern and would in my judgment, could in some cases, be addressed.

In any event I am sincerely appreciative of my Opposition Critic's, what I belie ve to be, extremely responsible concerns, as she has exp ressed them. We will hopefully be able to assist that community to resolving their water problems. It is a coin that has many sides.

Many of these same people are acutely aware that a processing operation like the Carberry potato processing plant is extremely im portant, as indeed is any economic activity in rural Manitoba, and that these same irrigators who are sometimes cast as the villain in the role, are faced with the situation that un less they have sources of water to use they are not getting the expanded contracts that are available to fill the processors with the necessary potato product, which in turn employs people in the area, and I think is generally acknowledged as a very imp ortant economic activity in the area.

It all ties together. I recently had the opportunity of addressing the annual meeting of the vegetable growers association here in Winnipeg, and that point certainly was brought home to me that at certain times we were importing from out of province, potatoes, up to 12 percent and 15 percent of the volume of the plant required. That did not leave anybody too satisfied either.

Certainly we had the capability of growing potatoes in Manitoba and our producers are there and ready and willing to do so, but in some in stances, particularly in drought years, they need the water to accomplish that, or we have special opportunities in di fferent parts of the province that grow specialty crops that can only be grown with irrigated water. They do not need a great deal of water.

We have a vegetable grower that grows the only Spanish onions grown in western Canada, and we in effect supply western Canada with western onions, but that sensitive crop requires relatively small amounts of irrigation water at a particular time in the growth of that crop or else there is no crop. * (1 530) Mr. Chairman I think the Hono urable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) is suggesting that I am now beginning to filibu ster my Estima tes. Knowing that we have unlimi ted time, I will cease and desist. Mrs.

Charles: Further to the same area, it is my understanding that part of the problem in the Plumas area is the fact that in past procedures that the diking that has gone on, and in looking at the map there is an intric ate web of diking that has gone on in that system to take away water in the springtime, perhaps has caused a rerouting of water supplies and avai lability of water come various seasons.

I am just wondering what work your department has done in looking into the various strategies that can take into account the channelling of water off the land and the diking and rerouting it around into streams and running it off where it could be saved and the channels could be culverted so that you could maintain and retain some of that water. Is there an equal amount of work going into the Plumas area in how to keep the water there rather than how to just bring water in from another source. Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, just very generally there is no question that we have for understandable reasons in those years done a pretty good job of taking water off the land and maybe too good of a job in many instances. We have also taken a lot of other things off the land, like trees and tree cover. That has created problems for our wildl ife. It has created problems for our waterfowl management in terms of providing the necessary sloughs and potholes for recovery of water and retention of water.

All of that has added to, particularly again when under the stress of drought years, the fact that we have lost some of the capability of retaining water when it is there in the spring and it has left us too quic kly. I am pleased to indic ate that that is being un derstood and we are changing the emphasis, have in fact in the last several years, to enhance the opportunities of retaining water in a variety of ways. In my budget this year there will be monies for several hundreds of small dam water retention projects. These are not Rafferty Alamedas. These are small structures of a few feet.

In some cases they are not a dam, they are simply restricters that slow up the water from running off a portion of the escarpment by three or four or five days, but all that helps. The Member for Pemb1na (Mf. Orchard) can tell you about the kind of work that is carrying on in some parts of his constitue ncy. We are quite frankly excited about some of the additional emphasis that the department will be able 4912

Thursday, February 1, 1990 to put in place with additional monies, not necessarily all governmental monie s, whether they come from outside organiza tions such as Ducks Unlimi ted, the greater availability of some funds from an agreement that we have signed, that we refer to as the North American Waterfowl Management Plan. Much of this money is directed for specific reasons such as enhancing waterfowl habitat, but it has a spino ff or a subsid iary benefit of providing and maintaining more water on the landscape. I think that is the direction that we have to place our emphasis for the next decade.

Hopefully we will achieve a better balance, still have the capacity to drain where required for modern agriculture, but retain more of that water on the landscape that will recharge our aquif ers and generally help drought proof our province. Mrs. Charles: Has your department been able to determine what amount of water in the Plumas area could be redirected to stay on the land and what effect that would have in replenishing the water supp ly, in that perhaps that is the best long-term strategy, is to make that area self sustainable rather than always bringing in the neighbourhood benefits?

We have to look after ourselves in our own regions if we are going to do proper land use and perhaps the type of farming, the style of drainage, all these items could be redefined over the next years to come in that the area could be self-sustainable. Perhaps past practices have not allowed for or encou raged the farmers to farm the type of processing that should be done for the land type and water conditions.

Also perhaps Government has been quick to take water off in times when it has been wet, and now when it is dry to pump water in and not look at the long term and figure out what is the average expecta tion for water in the area and proceed accordingly from that. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I would have to make this comment, that Mother Nature has not always fairly di stributed her resources throughout a region and we have regions of the province where, for ins tance, the water supply is not available. It is not potable, is very saline and we have substantial regions of those kind.

Other areas, because of their geography, not lend themselves well to the capture of the amounts of water that are required in today's business living and if it happens to be associated with the heavier ind ustrialist use of water. In general, do not take issue with it I think that there will be policies within this department to retain what water can be retained in a manageable way, recognizing that we are not about to fill in the drainage works that were built in the '60s and the early '70s.

We just have to manage !hem better and find those situations where we can retain water. money, of course, and I point out to critics, both of them, that the in crease in year's budget is not really adding to the general deficit of this province, and as such I could take this occasion to call on their support. Harapiak: (The Pas): Mr. Chairman, I am the Minis ter would be speaking about this 4913 subject at this time.

It brings to mind one particular subject that has been raised before, and that is one that the department have put forward information, that one of the projects that have the greatest return of water retention project in Manitoba and I am speaking about the project in the Duck Mountains.

I recognize that this year it was delayed because of the Clean Environment Commission hearings but the hearings have been completed and the commi ssion has given down the ruling that they approve of the project and I am wondering if-and I recognize that this year's money is for all purposes spent-but is there any consideration being gi ven to support this project in the coming year? Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the Honourable Members that I like to build dams and I have waited a long time to have the opportunity.

You know, all those years that I was in Opposition and the Honourable Member was Government he might have built a few of them but chose not too. Unfortunately now I have come to the point where I maybe could influence the building of a dam but it is now questionable whether those things are environmentally appropriate to build. I say this with some degree of jest. I appreciate the Member's comments on that specific project. He is correct.

It has been certainly identified by our resource people as being a very plausible and good program that is very high on the list of cost benefit programs that the department looked at. I can only assure the Member of this, that we are now concluding the budget year of'89-90. My officials and myself are currently, as the Member will recall even now we are a little late-working and putting together final touches to the'90-91 budget.

I can only say to the Member that I have considerable empathy for the particular project, and I un derstand that the kind of monies that would be required to commence with that project are the kind that I believe that we ought to be able to find . Mr. Harapiak: I hope there is no change of Mi nister then, because the Min ister last year assured me that there was at least going to be money in the budget to build a road into the site, but un fortunately he was moved out of that position. In fairness, there was an environmental hearing, so he could not proceed an yway.

I hope that some of that money can be used up this year to build a road, and then there could be some additional funds so that project could be staged. I wanted to- * (1 540) Mr. Enns: I cannot forego this opportunity to remind the Hono urable Member that he has a direct say in whether you or I will be here for a little while. Mr. Harapiak: I will pass on the opportunity to-Mr. Chairman, there is one other project that I wanted to bring to the Min ister's atten tion, and that is the Town of The Pas has been drawing their water from the Saskatchewan River for many years. That is not a

Thursday, February 1, 1990 dependable source of drinking water because of the fluctuating level of the Saskatchewan River and the greater percentage of the water being used by the other provinces. Just recently, there was a meeting held in The Pas, which was organ ized by the Local Government District of Consol who have an interest in starting up a water co-op, The Pas Indi an Ba nd, the Ma ni toba Metis Federation, on behalf of the Umpherville settlement, and the Town of The Pas have also expressed an int erest of maybe forming a much larger co-op, and bringing in water from Clearwater Lake.

This deals with lic ences, and I realize it would have to take some further study, but this is a question that has been looked at before. I am wondering if the Mini ster is open to the suggestion of bringing water from Clearwater Lake to those four jurisdictions. Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, I would think that not having had an opportunity of seeing the kind of overall costs involved and not having seen any engineering data on the project-but I can certainly express the view that having an alternate source of water like Clearwater Lake available to the communi ty of The Pas and surrounding users certainly is very fortunate for that communit y. It would appear to be a source and a supply that would be very attractive to them. Rough ind ications are that we are talking about a $4 million to $5 million project.

It is a kind of a project that would be undertaken by the Water Services Board in terms of supplying and sourcing water for municipal use. I would think that the project would qua lify for some other federal governmental assistance, particularly with the support and involvement of The Pas Indian Band who have an appropriate and rightful claim to federal sourcing for funds. So I think that the project is certainly within the realms of possibility and doable. I can report to the Honourable Member that the mayor of The Pas has been in direct contact, just in these days, with officials of my department.

We would play a supportive role to Water Services and certainly would not, in any way, want to do anything other than be supportive of the project. It seems to me that no matter how well we may, in the future, control emissions, indu strial emissions, into the Sask atche wan River -no t jus t by us but by upstream plants in Saskatchewan -that it is prudent for the mayor and the council of The Pas and our Indian brothers and Metis cousins to look to this other source for a future fresh and dependable supply of potable water. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass. Item 4.(a)

(2) Other Expe nditur es, $11 3,300- pass; 4.(

b) Water Licensing and Approvals:

(1) Salaries, $525,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditur es, $26,300 -pass; 4.(

c) Water Management:

(1) Salaries, $1 ,459,800- pass;

(2) Other Expen di tures, $274, 500- pass;

(3) Waterway Maintenance, $3,820,000- pass; 4.(

d) Hydrotechni cal Services:

(1) Salaries, $1, 143,500- pass;

(2) Other Expe nditur es, $836,900- pass; 4. (

e) Reg io nal Management:

(1) Salaries, $340,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditur es, $38,500- pass. 4.(

f) Canada-Manitoba Flood Damage Reduction Agreement:

(1) Salaries, $43,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditur es, $88,600 -pass. Resolution No. 108: RESOL VE D that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $9,1 07,500 for Natural Resources, Water Resources, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1990-pass. Item 5 is Parks. Item 5.(

a) Admini stration:

(1) Salaries, $519, 100-the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Chairman, are park fees scheduled to be in creased in the 1990 year? Mr. Enns: There will be no general incr ease proposed in the parks fees for'90-91. May I just take a moment to introduce our Parks Di rector, Mr. Gordon Prouse, and with him again Mr. Harvey Boyle from Regional Services whom you are familiar with. Mr. Harapiak: I wonder if I could ask the Mini ster how much additional revenue was gene rated from the introduction of the seniors entrance and camping fees last year. Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, not that we do not want to di sclose that amount but our admin istrative officer will search for that. Maybe prior to the adjourning this afternoon we will have that figure for him. I just do not have it at the top of my head. Mr. Harapiak: I do not imagine it is going to amount to be that much mone y, and I was very surprised. I recognize that the Government was scratching for every source available for funding, but I think that is one area that should have been looked at a little more careful ly. I think the sen iors ha ve made a great contribution to this count ry.

I think that many of them were restricted from enjoying camping because of the fact that there was an entrance fee for them. I would hope that the Mini ster responsible for Seniors (Mr. Downey) and the Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) would get together and look at the possibility of eliminating that, because I think if you look at other jurisdictions most of the other jurisdictions in Canada are not charging their seniors to frequent their parks. Mr. Enns: Mr.

Chairman, just to put on the record, it should be remembered that there is no park entry fee for seniors and we continue to provide reduced rates for camping and for golfing, roughly speaking 50 percent of the regular fee. That does not take away the fact that their fees were incr eased somewhat this past year. A numb er of them took the time to let me know that they did not appreciate it. Mr. Harapiak: Did you say that there was no entrance, because I was under the impression that there was an entrance fee introd uced this year? Mr. Enns: No, there is, Mr.

Chairman, just to be clear on that, there is no park entry fee for seniors. 4914

Thursday, February 1, 1990 Mr. Harapiak: What representations have the Government made on behalf of the campers that are going to be without services in the area that VIA Rail serviced previously in the northeast part of the province that now with VIA Rail being eliminated in that area , has the Government made any representation on those campers behalf? Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman , the Member will be aware that the campers involved have formed into an ad hoc committee .

They have, my understanding , met with a number of people including of course as one would think a num ber of federal officials in the hope of retaining in the first instance the train serv ice that they are dependent on, or some attempts to reschedule or to improvise some form of access to their cottage sites that is only available to them by rail. *

(1550) They have also met formally with our Parks people . We have and are doing some preliminary work to get some idea ourselves as to what it would mean to provide some road access into the area. There is some access at an old trail there that perhaps with some min imal amount could begin the process , but we have not and are not quite frankly at this time in a position to offer them any immediate solution to their problem . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for The Pas. Mr.

Harapiak: I would hope that the Minis ter or the Governm ent would make some representation to VIA Rail because there might be still some opportuni ty for providing a service . I hope that the Government would at least make a representation. One other area that I take adv anta ge of in the park system is skiing.

I enjoy cross-country skiing and I have frequented many of the parks and appreciate the grooming that is done in some of them, in the Sandilands, in Gran d Beach and The Pas area , but there are two parks that are used I believe by more people than the others and yet they do not seem to get the same type of service. Those are La Barriere and Beaudry. I am wondering , is it up to eac h individ ual location to groom the trails? How is the decision made of what trails will be groomed and which ones will not be groomed? Mr.

Enns: La Barriere Park of course is essentially as I said a responsibility , but the Member raised the issue of Beaudry Park . Beaudry really has not had the advantage of Parks finding the necessary budget to do some of the things that perhaps ought to be done there . It was one of the newest addi tion s to the parks system .

In the firs t instance the efforts and monies availabl e for it were for acquisition of the proper ty itself and for some of the prelimi nary work, in parti cular in terms of trail making , but the short and simple answer is that at this point has not found the priority within the Parks budget, the limited Parks budget. As I have in fact reminded Honourable Members of this committee throughout these Estimates, I ask them and I refer to them at the overall budget made available to me.

They will note that we are doing our very best with no increases in funds and yet, as the Member points out, and as he has personally experienced, we have a growing population of users . We have people who are increasingly more appreciative of what our park system has to offer throughout Manitob a. I was given the figure once that some 4 to 5 million people annually visit our par ks. The Parks director confirms that figure .

I can indicate to you that of those 4 or 5 million people , a goodly number of people drop into either his office or my office to tell us that we could do a better job of it if we had a bit more money here, or they want us to do a better job of it. They want the facilities constantly up to acceptable levels , or they want new facil ities. Of course with the expansion of winter activities, the Member points one out-cross country skiing. It really was not that greatly pursued 10, 15 years ago , but is being pursued more and more every year, and we need the wherewithal to provide those services. Mr.

Harapiak: The Park planner's position in the North was eliminated, and I am wonde ring is there any thoughts to putting that position back in. Are there any plans to upgrade the park at Clearwater Lake, because it does get a lot of use in the summer months? It is a very popular spot, Clearwater Lake, but the facilities are certainly lack ing there . Has there been any consideration of opening up Hugo Bay once again , because I know it was closed down because of the fact that it was kind of in a remote area?

I think there have been some improvements made on the road now , and I am wondering if there has been any consideration of opening up Hugo Bay. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, there are no plans to doing that at this time. In response to the question of the park planner's position, there has been a structural change in Parks that we have gone to Regional Managers and in fact have been able to provide a slight increase in field staff th rough out the park system, but the position that the Member alludes to has been changed to Regional Planners.

We have Regional Planners in the Interlake and the differe nt portions of the province. Mr. Harapiak: At what stage is that sewage lagoon now for Clearwater Lake? What stage is that sewage lagoon at? Mr. Enns: The engineering report and environmental input report are avail able. They have been sent to the interested community, The Pas Indian Band and the Moose Lake Indian Band, Clearwater Cottagers Association, and all have expressed an interest in the project. We anticipate that we will be submitting the project for approval under The Environment Act in mid to-late February .

If all goes well, my Deputy advises me that we would be in a construction process this summer. Mr. Harapiak: I hope that all goes well because there has been a lot of pressure on the existing facility right 4915

Thursday, February 1, 1990 now, and I bel ieve tha t it is not working up to specificat ions, so really it requires a new facili ty. One of the questions in that area is where is this Government in dealing with the difficult question of park residents in Clearwater Lake? Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, the Park admin istration has, as they have in the past, raised that issue with me shortly after I assumed the minis try.

We had in fact hoped to introduce the necessary measure that would introduce some measure where permanent residents in parks pay a fair share of the taxation burden that is im posed on the local community or LGD. It was my hope to have in place a program whereby a minumum of $500 would be applicable to all permanent residents of parks -(interjec tio n)-arbit rary if you like, but no netheless a fairer contribution to the tax load to the local Governments. (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) It was necessary to amend The Parks Act. I am advised to do that.

That advice came to me just relatively recently, and it is doubtful now, under the pressures tha t we face in thi s particular Ses sion , whether that will be proceeding forward for this coming year.

Nonetheless, the indications that I have given are clearly th at this Go vern ment wish es and will do something about it. * (16 00) We also wish to include, not only park residents, but all park properties and structures, including lease properties, under the overall reorganization of property assessment that is and will be occurring with the im plementation of The Assess ment Act tha t this Legislature ha s jus t pass ed. We are working in reasonably close liaison with assessment people of the Government to bring that about.

We were prepared, because we do not have that assessment in place, it would take us a two-to three-year period to gather that information, as an interim measure, to introd uce this $500 flat fee that would at least acknowledge what communities and community leaders have been bringing to our att ention, not just to this Government, to preceding Governments for some time. Mr. Harapiak: I was a Member of Government who was willing to deal with that difficult subject, and it is unfortunate that it was overlooked, that we had to change the Act. I thought that it would be in place by now.

There has been tremendous pressure within that community to bring those people in under some kind of a system. Quite often, the people who are permanent residents are called freeloaders. They want to pay their fair share, but there is no process in place now where they can. I know that it is not going to be a popular decision when the Government does decide to do it.

I know that during the last election, the mayor, who was a candida te for your Party, and myself, both lost that poll because of the fact that I was a Member of Government who was moving in that direction to deal with the subject, and he was also pursuing it as the mayor of the adjacent commun ity. That is the one poll that the Liberals did win in The Pas constitu en cy. They did win one poll in that constituenc y. Mr. Acting Chairman, it is not going to be a popular decision to make, but I think it is the right decision to make.

I would hope that the Government would have the courage to come forward with it as qui ckly as possible. Mr. Enns: I accept the Member's comments. I am pleased to have them on the record. I know that staff will appreciate that at least there is support for the measure, and hopefully we will be able to move in that direction as qui ckly as possible. Mr. Darren Praznik (lac du Bonnet): I have a couple of questions, Mr. Mini ster, for you and your staff. One of them has to deal with the operation of the Can Am Trail in the eastern part of Manitoba.

First of all, I would like to start off by just thanking you and your officials for their co-operation in dealing with the various snowmobile groups out of Lac du Bonnet and Pina wa district in developing that trail system, and the assistance you provided, particularly with the connection to the border. One concern that I have, and I wanted to raise it today because your staff is present. I understand there has been some dif ficulty in dealing with Manitoba Hydro, who have not been willing to allow passage of the marked trails on Hydro lands.

That has created some di fficulties because the lands have been used, et cetera. I would hope that your staff would work with those people and Hydro in correcting that problem, because it has led to some situations of dangerous areas not being marked, et cetera. I hope I could have that commitment. Mr. Enns: Yes, that has been brought to my attention as well by some of the user groups themselves. I thank the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) for raising the question. I un derstand, and I am sure he understands, that the thorn or the problem seems to be a liability question.

They have asked, and in fact they have approached the department, to see whether or not we could not somehow blanket cover them with the ins urance capability that the province has. (Mr. Parker Burrell, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) The di fficulty is, I am informed, that we do not really have insurance. We are, in fact, self-insured. I would be hopeful that we could convene, and I have asked the chairman of Manitoba Hydro to see whether or not he cannot find some ways of overcoming this particular problem.

It seems a natural, in many ways, that these cleared areas provide the kind of terrain that particularly lend themselves to this activity . Mr. Praznik: Mr. Min ister, I thank you for that. My main concern, and I raise it today because so many of your staff are in one place that it makes it easy to do it and to get that message, is primarily the problem with Hydro at the present time not allowing the marking of trails on their property. You have areas that are Crown land 4916

Thursday, February 1, 1990 and marked, a stretch of Hydro in-between, and then Crown land and marked, the consequence being that dangers on those trails are not marked, because Hydro will not allow the marking, so you have a greater potential for any kind of accident. I think it is going to take some co-operation at the bureaucratic level amongst departmental people and people in Hydro, and I raise this today simply because so many of the staff are here. Mr. Min ister, I note the comment by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus), and I noted his previous comment about who won the poll in The Pas.

I am glad to see the Mem ber for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), and his Party and our Party are always prepared to deal with serious issues, and that there are those who cater to everybody-but beside the point. Mr. Acting Chairman, my next question is one of some criticism for your department, and that has to deal with operations, particularly in Nopiming Park, and the policy dealing with outfitters, operators and tourist operators. I know there is a specific case that we have had a meeting on and some di scussions on, and I do not think this is the forum to raise it.

What concerns me is the general principle, when we have your department with authority in the parks, and the Department of Tourism in promoting visitors to come to our province, promoting our tourist trade, when we do not seem to have, often, co-ordination between those two departments, and even in your department, letters out on one hand to operators inviting them to future operations in parks, and then on the other, decisions being made, saying there will be no future development.

I think we have to get our act together as a Government, and the two departments involved have to get their acts together in dealing with operators. The biggest frustration I get in my riding-and granted there are always some who will abuse the rules, f do not deny that-i s that they get told di fferent messages, at di fferent times, often, at the same time from different people in di fferent departments.

I think we really owe it to those people to get our act together. has not just been a problem in the last year or two. it has been one that has existed since we have had a Department of Natural Resou rces and a Department of Tourism with that joint responsibil ity. I would app reciate your comments, Mr. Mi nister? Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Chairman, I am of course not in a to comment about what the di fficulties in area were in the past.

I acknowledge that when there are overlapping responsibilities at any time, here is always the opportunity for mixed signals going out to the general population. also remind, and it has been my experience as well that the clients have a habit sometimes, should not say habit, but on occasion work the system both ways hopefully their advantage and I accept that. That is fair game, you know, from their point of view. (Mr. Neil Gaud ry, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) I have ind icate that my staff people tell me they are particularly pleased with the relatively recent 4917 changes in the senior management at Tourism.

I am referring specifically to the Deputy Mi n ister, Mr. Paul Robson, who has in the months that he has been on board, developed a good rapport with our people. Hopefully, some of the di fficulties the Member alludes to will dimi nish and will be able to be handled in a way that is more acceptable to constituents of his that have di fficu lty. * (16 10 ) I invite the Member to keep bringing incidents to my or senior staff's atten tion.

Although, I kno w that invitation is hardiness, for if there is one Member in the Legisla ture today who does not hesitate to bring a concern of his constituents to the atten tion of this Mi nister or in deed any other Min ister, it is the current Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). The Acting Ch airman (Mr. Gaudry): Any more questions? The Honourable Member for Selkirk. Mrs. Charl es: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Gaudry): I thought you were surrendering. Mrs. Char les: You would have to have a fight in order to surrender and I do not want to get into the fight.

The Parks policy, for the province, as I think the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Prazn ik) was mentioning really does not seem to be definable. We have wilde rness parks and parks that we can mine in, and we can do almost everything in. We have small parks, we have mediu m-sized parks, we have tourism parks. I am wondering if there are various standards of parks and if perhaps, the Mi nister could or the staff could give me the overview of what the

definitions of parklands are at some time. I feel at times that-I think the most continual problem I have gi ven to me by constituents and by all Manitobans is tha t-I seem to get a lot of people from the Beausejour area into my constituency office, and I do not know why that would be the case, but they do come over-in the summertime, when parks are more in use, the clima te of the parks is more for partying than it is for enjoyment of parks.

I belie ve there have been some efforts over the years to cut down on the rowdyism, but there is still somehow in Manitoba, because we sell them through tourism that you go there and have fun. We are not selling parks for what it should be, enjoyment of the environment, but just enjoyment of a lif estyle. That usually ends up being the enjoyment of partying and drinking too much and putting the music on too loud. I think that is very unfortuna te so perhaps, I am just leaving it over for the Minister to comment on his policy on parklands and perhaps, his philo sophy on where a park should go to in the province.

Mr. Enns: Mr. Acting Chairman, I think that in our Manitoba Parks plan, and we have a Parks plan, we can honestly say that we can virtually accommodate the fullest and the wide st range of use that in divid ual

Thursday, February 1, 1990 Ma nitob ans, visitors, tourists, would hope to experience in a park and that varies wid ely. One group's concept of enjoyment in a park is to be accompanied with a ghetto blaster and case a of 24, hot sun and close p

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-116
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 116.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	97ebeabb7c11d2d23df4889686e784a6537fe8d8

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