Manitoba Hansard — 16 November 1989 (Sitting 72, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-72

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, November 16, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Honourable Members' attention to the gallery where we have from the Oakenwald School , twenty-seven Grade 5 students, and they are under the direction of Mary-Ann Mitchle r. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mr. Laurie Evans). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Arena Proposal Federal-Provincial Position Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, when this Government took office, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said it was a dawn of a new age of federal-provincial relations . Well, the dawn has turned to dusk , and now the wolves are baying at the moon . Yesterday, Jake Epp said that he wanted to talk about a new arena , but he forgot to tell the Minister responsible for Sport (Mr. Ernst) . Then when the provincial Minister heard about that, he said that the meeting is going to be a short one because he wanted to punch Jake Epp in the nose. We do not need a new arena .

We have the walls and the halls of the Legislative Building . Has the Premier (Mr. Film on) talked to either Mr. Epp or the mayor of the City of Winnipeg about these new revelations? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker - (interj ect ion)- you should see the other guy, right? I than k the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) for his questi on. You know I had heard that he was a poet ; in fact , I heard he was going to be performing , at the West End Cultural Centre, last week.

I am glad that he has given us in his introduction a little bit of his imagery, but it will take more to convince me. I will say to the Member for Fort Rouge -(interjection)- An Honourable Member: Iambic pentameter answers . Mr. F ilmon: We have an aficionado of poetry in the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). Mr. Speaker, I am having difficulty getting to the point. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Order . Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. I have not met with or discussed the matter of the arena with either the mayor or with Minister Epp in the last 48 hours, or for that matter ever.

The topic has not come up as a matter of discussion amongst the three levels of Government with me included. Provincial Support Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supplementary question if I could to the Premier. We now have a series of proposals on the table. We have the possibility of an arena being built on CN land and The Forks. We have heard peop le talk about an arena being built south of the Convention Centre, and also the possibility of a very expensive dome stadium near the confluence of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers.

Could the Premier tell the House today which, if any of these propo sals, he supports and what provincial involvement he anticipates, if any? *

(1335) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I will begin by saying I anticipate no provincial involvement . I will say that I support the present arena having been involved with an ad hoc committee at Winnipeg City Council which made the determinat ion at that time in about 1978 or 1979, I guess it was, that the least costly, most effective option for the City of Winnipeg was to expand the existing facility, at that time , which is our current Winnipeg arena. The expansion was done at a fraction of the cost of what was proposed for a new arena at that time .

Similar proposals were made by Al Golden and many others without money to back them up, I might suggest, as is often the case. Under none of those circumstances did I believe that an arena at a cost of $50 million or $100 million was a priority for the City of Winnipeg or the Province of Manitoba and certainly not a priority that ought to be paid for by taxpayers' money. Federal-Provincial Relations Political Climate Concerns Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): We are concerned that federal -provincial relations have been reduced to shouting matches between federal Ministers and Members of this Government.

I would like to ask the Premier just what he thinks this is a symptom of? That we have no communication between the federal Minister , who comes to Winnipeg to talk about an important community project, and then a Minister of the Crown, one of his Ministers who talks about engaging in some kind of fisticuffal activity. Well, we are talking about arenas, Mr. Speaker, so it is appropriate . 2913 Is the Premier concerned that federal-provincial relations in this province appear at an all-time low?

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I would recommend to the Memb er for Fort Rouge that he read the notes of the statement that I made in Ottawa last Thursday at the First Ministers' Conference , at which time I indicated very clearly that I saw shadows of a reoccurrence of the very negative and damaging relations that had existed between the federa l Government of Pierre Elliott Trudeau and the provinces of the '?Os and early 'B0s.

In fact, if the federal Government continues its unilateral actions on things such as the GST, or the regulation grab on the telephone system, or many other areas such as they are moving out of shared-cost federal provincial programs such as the ERDAs and so on, we are into a very serious and very negative climate for federal-provincial relations in this country .

That comment elicited a very angry and petulant response from the Prime Minister, and I believe it was seen as such, but that comment is being played out as the truth in situations such as we are seeing where the federal Government is moving into supposedly shared-cost situations without consultation of one of the partners . I cannot in any way condone that ; in fact, I oppose it. Our Minister and our Members of Government have indicated that we do not believe that it is the right way to go. Mr. Carr: It is one thing to have poor relations. It is another thing to stop talking.

Lotteries Foundation Fort Garry Hotel Casino Lease Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): I have a new question for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs . Mitchelson). The Minister has been at the gambling tables again, gambling away taxpayers' hard-earned money. The stakes are high and they are getting higher . I am afraid her luck has run out. The costs of the proposed casino with the Hotel Fort Garry are spinning out of control, and it is fast becoming a monument to this Government's managerial incompetence .

Renovation costs have skyrocketed as the project has gone from one floor to two floors; the betting limit has gone from $200 to $500; the cost of new equipment has gone from $100,000 to $1.5 million.- (interjection) ! am getting to the question , Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member , kindly put his question . Mr. Carr: September 18 of this year Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please . Mr. Carr: Given the fact that on September 18 of this year, a statement of defence and counter claim - Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order, please . An Honourable Member: You have blown your

preamble, get to the question . Mr. Speaker: Order, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, kindly put his question now, please . •

(1340) Mr. Carr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Given the fact that in September of this year a statement of defence and counter claim was issued against the hotel- Mr. Speake r: Order, please. Is there a question here? Order, please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: . . . how can the Minister justify spending money on leasehold improvem ents- *** ** Mr. Speaker: Order , please ; order, please . The Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader) : Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend seems to have a proclivity, maybe it is when his Leader is not near him , to disobey the Rules of this House, and he is doing it repeatedly and shows no concern for the fact that the Rules of the House must be obeyed. If he persists , Mr. Speaker, I suggest he not be seen to ask any further quest ions. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge put his question now, please. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, I will get right to the point.

How can the Minister justify spending money on leasehold improvements to the seventh floor when she is not even certain she has a valid lease? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, let me deal first of all with the lengthy

preamble . One of the allegations that was made by the Member opposite, and if he understood Government and the Lotteries Foundation, he should know that there is not a cent of taxpayers' dollars that is going into the casino at the Fort Garry Hotel. The money is coming from the Lotteries Foundation, which is a business, and ultimately a capital up-fro nt cost to generate $10 million per year to go to very worthwhile health care development in this province . It is something that this Government is not ashamed to move forward with. Casino Start-up Costs Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): The Minister , who when talking about tax dollars and lottery dollars, says, a buck is a buck is a buck . Mr. Speaker , the Minister has indicated that she did not know what the price tag would be for casino preparation, and now we find out the cost will be $4.5 million . Can the Minister explain to the House why this Government would commit itself to the casino, when it had no idea what the cost would be? 2914

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Spea ker, there has never been an indi cation that I never knew what any costs were going to be. There were going to be up-front capital costs in order to generate $10 million per year for health care in the Province of Manitoba. I am not ashamed to admit that the money that is going to go to special health care projects in this province to change over from institutiona lized care to commun ity-based health care services is something that this Government supports.

This is a way that we can accommoda te and make that happen. I make no excuses for that. Hotel Casino Upgrade Costs Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, with a final suppleme ntary question. *

(1345) Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, when the present owner of the Hotel Fort Ga rry bought the hotel, the city required that the building be brought up to standards. Tha t being the case, why do es the Government now have to spend an additional $1. 5 million to upgrade the facilities? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speak er, we have a heritage building in the Fort Garry Hotel, a building I might say that we are very proud of in this City of Winnipeg.

When changes had to be made on the seventh floor and on the 10th floor at the Fort Garry Hotel, there had to be renova tions and those renovations in an old his toric building sometimes are somewhat costly. If the wiring needed to be changed behind the walls in the Fort Garry Hotel, i believe that we have taken the responsible action for making the wiring and the safety as good as possibly can be. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Before recogn izing the Ho nour able Member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer), I would like to draw Honourable Members' attention to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon, Mr. Dave Barrett, M.P., the former Premier of the Province of British Columbia. On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this after noon. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): We have such great excellent leadership candi dates. You do not have to be part of the Millio nai res Club like the Tories and Lib erals to run for the NOP. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 2915 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (cont'

d) Arena Site Proposal Parks and Forks Ban Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Spea ker, indeed the $4.5 million renovations which was raised by the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill) for the casino, the $4.5 million renovations for the casino is only the tip of the chaos and iceberg that is going to happen when this Min ister tries to implement her dress code at that casino and deny Manitobans the opportunity for coming in there. My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Doer: I have really gotten them excited here with this mil lionaire stuff, I am sorr y.

Manitoba is a partner in the parks and Forks park area of some 50 acres of land which is part of the speculation and rumours of the new arena site, or the proposed arena site. Will the Premier today and his Government guarantee that as a shareholder of that site, a site tha t many of us worked very hard to put back in public hands, there will be absolutely no way that we will consider any option that would allow that arena to go into the publicly owned Forks area, the 50 acres of land that are so vital to that communit y? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, as a shareholder in The Forks, to the Member opposite: I had a brief discussion with the mayor yesterday because I had the same concerns as he did in regard to the mention that it was actually to do with The Forks and, to the Member across the way, the arena site that is proposed is not on The Forks land. Ban Guarantee Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I am very aware that the proposal is not now on tha t site.

What I would like in this Chamber is a guarantee that the Province of Manitoba, which has a veto of development in The Forks, will not allow the new area no matter what option comes forward to go on the 50 acres that are pu blicly owned at The Forks site. I would like that guarant ee today. * (1 350) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speak er, for one who was in volved in the original Forks project in 1984, I am as concerned as anyone_ in this House to make sure that The Forks site is what it is planned to be, to be a type of growth, a park effort that is necessary for that particular area.

This is to the Member across the way. From the brief meeting that I had with the mayor after the discussions that came about as the result of a news item yesterday morning, I talked to the mayor quite bri efly, and that particular arena is not on The Forks site. Mr. Doer: I asked the Mini ster twice to give us the gu arantee and he did not.

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Goods and Services Tax Corporate Tax Alternative Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): A suppl ementary question to the Premier . Yesterday it was revealed that in 1987, there were $27 billion dollars in profits from 93,000 corporations that did not pay any taxes at all into the Canadian tax system. It is a system that has developed over the years under Liberal adminis trations and now is carried on by the Mulroney admin istration. We have reduced the share of corporate taxes in this country from 20 percent in 1965 down to 11 percent in'84 and down to 9 percent in '89.

I would ask the Premier: wi ll he resu bmi t his statement to the First Minis ters' meeting and ask for a minimum corpor ate tax to be the alternative rather than the GST, the 9 percent proposed tax, in this coun try? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I too read that news report from the non-leadership candida te in the federal New Democratic Party, and I think it was Mr. Nystrom. All the good candida tes are not running. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker , I have no hesitation in saying tha t we, the Progr essive Cons ervative Party of Mani toba, have consistently said tha t the federal Government ought to elimina te the loopholes, most of which were developed by the federal Liberal Trudeau Government, that allow corporations not to pay their fair share of taxes. We have consistently argued against that. We have consistently advocated that the federal Government elimina te th ose looph oles so th at corporations pay their fair share of taxes. Those loopholes ought to be elimina ted, and we will continue to tell the federal Government that.

Corporate Tax System Adjustments Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): I would ask the Premier then, in his statement to the Prime Minis ter, to the federal Govern ment, why he did not ask and demand tha t the loopholes be removed. He only raised an alternative as a question mark. He never proposed an alternative as a statement of the Manitoba position. Will the Premier now resu bmit the statement that was made at the First Min isters' meeting, which is devoid of any reference to a minimum corpor ate tax?

It is devoid of any reference to ridding Canadians of the loopholes that are rendering our tax system unfair . Would he revise his statement so that the words he just uttered in this House will be consis tent in terms of the words he presents to the Prime Minis ter? * (13 55) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , we will continue to advise the federal Government through all sorts of avenues we have available to us. I make statements time and time and time again about what we believe- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Mr. Filmon: -should be happening.

We are on the record as saying that we are against tax loopholes. We are against all of them. The crazy things that came in about SR TCs that were used by Li beral and New Democrat people in this province in the past, the system that the New Democratic Party brought in for tax avoidance when they put all the buildings of the Manitoba Government into a corporation to allow wealthy investors to avoid paying taxes in this province. We are against those. We are consistently against those and will continue to be against those.

Even when New Democrats take advantage of them, we still will not think that they are the right thing to do. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. Ord er. Manitoba Telephone System Emergency Service Upgrading Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): Today we learned that due to archaic equipment, a Winnip eg police emergency operator needed 27 min utes to trace the address of two Winnip eg women who called the 911 assistance line. Shortly after emergency teams arrived, one of the victims died of multiple stab wounds, and her 86-year old mother died later in hospital. Mr.

Spe aker , unfortuna tely for Mrs. Shimizu and her daught er, we will never know if an immed iate response would have saved their lives. My que stion is for the Mini ster resp onsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. What action is this Government taking to correct a very in adequa te emergency system which is currently jeopardizing the lives of Manitobans? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the admi nistration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speak er, what happened was a very serious event and very unfortunate to the two people involved, but I think the Member needs to un derstand the system.

Manitoba Telephone System has the lin es. They own the lines. The response operator is hir ed by the City of Winnipeg, and they man that phone 24 hours a day. They received the call. The kind of equipment the city has in place does not have an automatic num ber identification on it. In fact, in order to trace a call they have to phone the Manitoba Telephone System, which we un derstand they did, and the Manitoba Telephone System traced the call and found the num ber. Then you have to iden tify the numb er with an address.

So there was an automatic problem with time, and the equipment is now available for automatic num ber identification. The Manitoba Telephone System has had proposals in front of the City of Winnip eg to use more modern technological receivers so that there is a much better ability to identify num bers, but once you know num bers 2916

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 you still have to be able to tie it up with addresses. The equipment is available, but I would also caution the Member that does not guarantee that 100 percent of the citizens will have automatic numb er identification. Tha t only works where a digi tal switch is used, and 89 percent of the people in the City of Winnip eg now have digita l switches avai lable to them.

It will be a vast im provement over what is there, but there is no guarantee that even automatic numb er identification would give a faster response in terms of finding out the numb er followed by the add ress in situations of that nature. We are very seriously concerned with it, and the Telephone System is going to be talking to the city about im proving the ability to respond. Emergency Services Upgrading Quotes Mr.

Gilles Roch (Springfield): We have also learned that the Government has requested a quote from GEC Plessey Teleco mmun icat ions among others for implementing an automa ted 911 service similar to the system currently in place in Saskatchewan , which automatically sends to police the names and add resses of callers to the 911 line. Will the Min ister tell this House what the submitted quote was, and what decision this Minis ter has made? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the admi nistration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr.

Speaker, there is only one province in the country of Canada that has a 911 system, and I believe it is New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, one of those two provinces down east. It is not Saskatchewan. It is our objective, it is my objectiv e, as Minis ter that we have in the province one emergency response numb er 911. We have asked the corporation to study the ability, techno logy-wise, to put that kind of a numb er in position for all of the residents of rural Manitoba and the province. Rural Program Extensions Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): I am glad to hear that answer, Mr.

Speaker , because last year the Min ister was telling us it was not possible. Due to prohi bitive costs, ma ny rural municip alities are without the lifesaving services of 911. Will the Min ister make a co mmi tment toda y to facilitate automa ted province- wide 911 service to prevent further loss of life? Will he make a commitment? Hon. Glen Findlay (Min ister responsible for the admin istration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, given the technological abilit y to do that with reasonable cost, the answer is an absolute emphatic, yes. Sexual Abuse Policy false Accusations Protection Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): After much urging from the Liberal Party, the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach) has finally requested that school divisions res pond to students' charges of sexual abuse against teachers by removing the teachers from physical contact positions, but fortunately no longer by denying that teacher his or her salary, at least until a full investigation and/or conviction is made. The teachers are breat hing a little easier but still have several questions, as do many concerned with the students who may maliciously place accusations on un suspecting instructors.

What is the Minis ter's policy to deal with students who falsely accuse a teacher with sexual abuse? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Spea ker, just as always, the Li berals, th ey act as John ny-come-la tely and then the y try to take the credit for actions of the Government, but I can tell you that my department has been on of this matter all along. In fact when the Member Stur geon Creek (Mr s. Yeo) trie d to accuse this department of not doing anything, we had already acted on the matter.

With regard to what my department can do, in terms of when charges are laid against a teacher, we are very limited in that respect. We can either refer the matter to the Certificate Review Committee, or we can suspend the certificate until the charges have been dealt with. Those are the only ways in which we can deal with those matters. Otherwise, those matters are dealt with by the police and through the courts as they should be. Child Protection Centre Contact Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): My question was with regard to the students who may have placed the charges, and I am wondering if the Minister has had any contact with the educational team of the Child Protection Centre because these are people who are trying to educate and to counsel troubled young people. * (14 00) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker , there is no way that my department is going to begin laying charges against students for misch ief or any other matter of that nature.

All we can do is ensu re, through our family life programs in schools and through the education system, tha t we ensure that indeed students are aware of the facts that if you lay charges where they should not be laid tha t is a very serious matter. Through our education system, we can dispel that kind of information, but certainly we cannot take action against an indi vidual student when in fact that student may have made an accusation which proves to be false. Certificate Reinstatement Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Again to the same Min ister, Mr.

Speak er, what action is the Minister currently taking to assure the reinstatement of the teaching certificate of the teacher from Rivers in light of the fact that the charges were stayed on August 29? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Speak er, this once again points out to 2917

Thursday, November 16, 1989 the necessity of the amendment to The Public Schools Act that has been proposed in this Legislature because in some instances, and in one instance in particular when the charges were dropped against the teacher , the school board did not notify my department for a month afterwa rds. For that reason, it is impossible for my department to take action beforehand. For this reas on, we have in sisted that when a charge is laid, the superintendent must in fact inform my department immedia tely.

In cases where charges are dropped or where a charge is dismi ssed, that teacher's certificate will be reins tated automatical ly, but that will not mean that that certificate is not going to be referred to the Certificate Review Comm ittee. LynnGold Negotiations Package Details Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker , throughout the past few weeks, the Min ister of Energy and Mine s (Mr .

Neuf eld) ha s constantly ind icated tha t his Government has prepared a worse case scenario to deal with the hardship created for Lynn Lake residents tha t will result from the fail ure of the provi ncial Government to success fully negotiate a deal with LynnGold, that would allow for the continuation of mining and milling opera tions in Lynn Lake. Now that worse case scenario has become a worse case reality with the apparent end of the negotiations. Can the Minis ter ind icate the details of that package and the cost to the province of the various components of that package? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Min ister of Energy and Mines): Well, Mr. Speak er, I will answer the last qu estion first. It is impossible to determ ine the cost at a time when we do not know how many people will be leaving Lynn Lake. Ther e is in place a relocation assistance plan funded partially by the federal Government and will be topped up by the Manitoba Government. There will be aid to the LGD of Lynn Lake because of the decrease in the tax base because the company is no longer paying its grant in lieu of taxes. There will be a numb er of other programs that will come into play.

The hospital will of course receive aid from the Department of Health, the LGD will receive aid. The school board will receive aid because of the tax base that has been eroded. Mr. Cowan: The Min ister is ind icating that he does not know, at this point in time, this late stage in the game, how much it will cost. Property Equity Protection Plan Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): There is another issue, which the Minis ter did not respond to. On October 31, the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr.

Downey) during his Est ima tes review said he wou ld be making representation to his Cabinet colleagues to help them put together a program to help Lynn Lake residents save their equity in their homes. Can the Min ister of Energy and Mines ind icate what action this Government has taken to protect the equity that Lynn Lake residents have invested in both their homes and their property? ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minis ter of Northern and Nativ e Affairs, on a point of order. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Yes, Mr. Speak er.

I would like the Member for Churchill to not put misi nformation on the record as it relates to what took place during Seniors Estim ates, and what he put on the record was not said by me, as Min ister. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Minis ter does not have a point of order, dispute over the facts. ***** Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, it has been said before, and I will say it again, there is no precedent in Canada for the payment for equ ity on hous es. The Go vernment ha s not discussed this issue, but I will expect to be asked for some help from the residents.

We have at this point in time not discussed the issue. I must repeat there is no precedent in Canada for the payment for equity lost in hou ses due to a shutdo wn of a princi pal indus try in the town. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker , well, the Min ister betrays his igno rance again because there are in fact precedents with respect to equity in homes, but we will di scuss that at another date. Financial Protection Instructions Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): On September 5, the Min ister of Energy and Mines told the Lynn Lake mayor and council in a meeting that his Government would not allow the banks, and I assume that meant the other creditors, to place LynnGold into bankrup tcy. What action has his Government taken, and what action will they be taking to fulfill that commitment to the workers of LynnGold and to the other secured and unsecured creditors of LynnGold? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker , the Member for Churchill places a lot of information on the record.

He was never at any meetings where anything like this was said. He was never at a meeting where I was at. I have never ever said to the member of the Council of Lynn Lake that we would not allow the company to go bankrupt. There is no- Mr. Cowan: I have the minutes. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): He said we would not put them into bankrupt cy. Mr. Cowan: No, no. That is not -(inaudi ble)- Mr. Filmon: That is right, that is right. You were not there. 2918

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease; ord er, pl ease. The Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mines. •

(1410) Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speak er, I nor any Member of the Government has any control over what the company may do. I or no Member of this Government has any control of what some of the creditors may do. Indeed, we have no control over what the unions may do. Mr. Speaker , this Member for Churchill, a week ago, stood with the company to try to pressure the Government into- An Honourable Member: He did not care about the empl oyee. An Honourable Member: Listen to him. Listen to him. An Honourable Member: He called him an idio t An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker, it is the truth. Mr. Speaker: Order , please.

The Honourable Minis ter of High ways and Transportation. Order , please. POINT Of ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill, on a point of order . Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) just said from his seat and was heard by other Members on this side, other Members of the other Opposition, that I was, in his terms, an idiot. I would ask him to withd raw that remark. Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Sp eaker, I call them as I see them. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. Order.

On that point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Churchill, 1 the Chair did not hear the remarks but the Chair will listen to the tape on the in terject mi kes. Rural Development Toll-free Services Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Highw ays and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) raised certain questions in this House and in his usual way of trying to leave the wrong impr ession, or not being totally forthright, tried to give the impression that rural and northern people could no! access the 800 numb er in this province that there was a change in policy. Mr.

Spe aker, I want to ind icate that there has been no change in policy, that all 800 num bers that have been acces sible- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; ord er, please. Is the Honourable Min ister resp onding to a question taken as notice? Order , please. Order . Bring me the list. ***** Mr. Speaker: On a point of order , the Honourable Min ister of Rural Development. Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): If it would please the Speak er, the question yesterday was dir ected to me, and I ind icated to the House that once I had the information I would bring the information back to the House.

I am prepared to do that. ***** Mr. Penner: I would like to set the record strai ght, that the system that is currently in place when the former adminis tration was the re, there had been no changes to the calling process of the 800 num ber. To satisfy ourselves, I had staff from my department yesterday make calls to Dauphin and had some people from Dauphin call in through the 800 number to our department. They got through without any problem and thanked our staff for the efforts that the y had in fact initiated. We made that same call, Mr.

Speak er, to Thomp son to indicate clearly to ourselves whether the num bers were in fact inoperative, or whether there was some mi stake. The 800 num ber was used, they were put through to our office, without any problem, so there have been no changes and the information that the Honourable- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been answered. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), on a point of order . Mr. Jerry Storie {Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, it has just impug ned the information that I had provided and my reputation.

For the Min ister's information, this morning the Flin Flon Crisis Centre called the 1-800 Citizens' Inquir y num ber, asked for the Assessment Office of Rural Development and was denied access- Mr. Speaker: Order , please; ord er, please. The Honour able Member for Flin Flon kindly assume his chair now, please. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon assume his chair now. Ord er, please. On the point of order raised by the Honour able Member for Flin Flon, the Honourable Member does not have a point of order, it is a dispute over the facts. Senate Reform Committee Announcement Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker , my question is to the Prem ier. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 2919

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able Mem ber for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: At last week's First Min isters' Conference there seemed to be a consensus that a special meeting could be called in November of 1990 to talk about Senate Reform. As the Premier knows, the Manitoba task force unanimo usly reco mmended that the Premier establish a Manitoba commi ttee to lay out a Manitoba position on the very subject of Senate Reform.

Since the Premier has stated publicly that he accepts all of the recommendations contained within the task force report, when does he intend to announce the creation of the Senate Reform Comm ittee? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Soon, Mr. Speaker . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. Committee Make-up Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supplementary question to the Premie r, if I may. The task force did not specify the shape that the comm ittee should take, lea ving tha t to the di scre tion of the Premier in consultation with Members of the Opposition.

Can the Premier give us any advice on just what kind of make up the comm ittee will ha ve, and can he gi ve us assurances today that it will reflect the legis lative standings in the House? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honour able First Minis ter. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I will certainly be giving it careful considera tion, and I can assure the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) that it will have representation from both sides of the House. * (14 20) Mr. Carr: I have no doubt that a comm ittee of the Legislature will have representation from both sides of the House.

Committee Guidelines Assurances Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): What I am looking for is a commi tment from the Premier that that comm ittee will reflect the standings within this Legislature. Can he give us those assurances today? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thought maybe he would like to have it reflect the current standings in the polls. I am sure that- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly give his advice very careful considera tion. South African Embassy External Affairs Intervention Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): While I am on my feet, -(interjection)- I just asked for permission to respond to a que stion that I took as notice from the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) yesterd ay. I know that it is a very serious series of questions and I would like to give a report, if I may. I was gr eatly disturbed at the allegations that were brought forward to this Chamber about the South African Em bassy having hired at least two Manitobans to spread propa ganda and in formation gathering activities on behalf of the Government of South Africa.

I was pleased to learn that in investigating that, the Right Honou rable Joe Clark, the Minister of External Affairs, Secretary of State for External Affairs, had proceeded immed iately to call in the South African Ambassador to investigate the situation and to question him on the matter, a very serious action inde ed on his behalf. I was also pleased to learn that CSIS had been investigating this matter and that it was currently under investigation. At this point in time, I might ind icate that we have no information that says that the allegations have been confirmed.

They remain under investigation, and I say that we will wait until we get the full confirmation or denial of the story from the External Affairs Department. I might say that to the South African admin istra tion, whether they hire two or 200 Manitobans for this sort of activity, I am convinced that Manitobans will remain outraged at the South African position with respect to apartheid. I belie ve that Government would be better served to lend its efforts to removing and dismantling apartheid than to try and convince people anywhere in this world that it is the right way to go.

Public Health Facility Construction Plans Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker , just a month ago during debate on a resolution for a public health facility in Dauphin that I had introduced in this House, the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard) indicated that his priority was a 25-bed personal care home expansion in Dauphin. He said that this was going to be fast tracked and now over a month later since he made those statements in this House and one-and one-half years since he took office, the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) still has given no assurances to the people of Dauphin that this facility will proceed immedia tely. I ask the Min ister, can he now indicate today when the construction of this facility will begin? Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of Hea lth): Mr. Spea ker, my honourable friend will have to await with patience for the tabling of the Capital Estimates, when we reach that line in the Health Estima tes. I just want to tell my honour able friend that the priority of this Government is not a $30 million bridge to nowhere 2920

Thursday, November 16, 1989 north of Selkirk. It is people projects, not like the former Mini ster of Highw ays and Member for Dauphin. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRO DUCTION OF BILLS Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr. Speaker , I wonder if I could have leave of the House to revert to Introduction of Bills. Mr. Speaker: Does the Ho nour able Mem ber for Interlake have leave to revert back to Introduction of Bills? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Bill NO. 85-THE ELECTIONS AM END MENT ACT Mr.

Bill Uruski (Interlake) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 85, The Elections Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi electorale. MOTION presented. llllr. llruski: Mr. Speak er, as is custom ary, I would like to present Members with a brief introduction to this Bill. This Bill follows along a long standing tradition of this Assembly where we have, generally by comm ittee, and as a result of comm ittees, by consensus gone ahead and hired the Clerk of this Assembly, by an all- Party comm ittee to select our Clerk.

We have by legislation an all-P arty commit tee to select the Ombudsman of thi s provi nce, and what I am proposing in this amend ment to The Elections Act is that an all- Party comm ittee be estab lished-and by legislation that all Parties be involved in this election of the Chief Electoral Officer. Mr. Speak er, I would like to take this moment to express my sympathies and condolences to the family of Richard Willis who was our returning officer and served this province well.

I am sure that he would have been one of those who would have been willing, as a Member of this Assembly, to use an all-Party comm ittee for the selection of that position. Mr. Speaker , we as well in this Assembly have by law a Bound aries Comm ission that is the envy of most Legislatures in this countr y, which sets the bound aries of electoral divisions. Let us follow that tradition and move in the way of having the Chief Electoral Officer's position filled by an all- Party commit tee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. NON- POLITICAL STATEMENT Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns): I wonder if I could have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for St. Johns have leave to make a non-political statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. 2921 Ms. Wasylycia -Leis: Mr. Sp ea ker, on behalf of Members in my caucus, I would like to recog nize the fact that this week is Communi ty Centres Week.

The week of November 12-18 is a week set aside to pay tribute and to recognize the work of commun ity centres. am sure all Members in this House will agree with the im portance that is attached to commun ity centres and will want to pay tribute to the worker volunteers and to, if I can just get the name right, the General Council of Winnip eg Community Centres, which is an um brella group for all community centres in the city and pla ys a very vital part of our community in facilitating the work of commun ity centres and working with volunteers, and which is holding its 50th Annual Leader ship Conference this week at the Fort Garry Place. * (14 30) So on behalf of everyone in this House, we pay tribute to all of those who have made commun ity centres a vital part of our community and recognize Commun ity Centres' Week.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I rise on a motion of grievance. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take the opportunity to state my grievance for this Session with regard to efforts by this Government to privatize the Mani toba Public Insur ance Corpora tion, General Insurance lines and also the Manitoba Data Services, a very successful and profitable Crown corporation that has served the people, the taxpayers of this province, for many years in a very, very excellent way. I do not know whether the Minis ter resp onsible for MPIC (Mr. Cummin gs) has yet looked at his mail, but i am sure he would have received a letter by now.

He should have received a letter signed by about 70 emp loyees of the MPIC, General Insurance Division, who are very, very anxious about the future of their jobs. The fact is that this Minister has stated, at the time of the electi on, that MPIC General Insurance would be sold or divested in some way. We are here in the middle of No ve mb er 19 89, and th e emp loyees are still wondering what is going to happen. As of November 4, 1989, the Free Press had a story quoting the Minis ter to the effect that he was going to proceed with the sale of this compa ny.

To quote from the letter that the Minister should have, dated November 15: as emp loyees di rectly affected by the forthcoming sale of the General Insurance

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Division, as announc ed in the November 4, 19 89, addition of the Winnipeg Free Press, we are seriously concerned about our future. I am read ing, Mr. Speaker , from the letter signed by these 70 empl oyees: while the newspaper

article ment ions a pur chaser would have to ensur e tha t employees are fairly treat ed. This is nowhere defined, thus we are most anxious to know specifically what detailed arrangements are in place to protect the int erests of existing staff? Please respond as soon as possi ble, sinc e the ongoing un certainty is extremely harmful both to us as individuals and to the MPIC as an organiza tion. That is the end of the letter, and it is signed by I believe 69 persons who are empl oyed in the General Insurance lines.

It is my contention that this Min ister is going down the wrong course, because he now has a report that the Public Uti lit ies Committee of the Legislature requested asking for an analysis of the operations of the personal and commercial lines of the General Insurance Division. In that report, nowhere does it sugge st or recomme nd to the Min ister , to the Government, that the MPIC General Insurance personal and commercial lines be sold or in anyway be gotten rid of.

That is not the recom mendation of the report, and yet he makes a statement on November 4, which seems to infer that now we have got this report, now for sure we have to sell this segment of MPIC, but that is not the case. As a matter of fact, the report has more advantages listed for keeping MPIC in general insurance than it has disadvantages. It does relate to the fact that division has had difficulty in making net revenue or making profit if you will over the years, but there has been a sign ificant turnar ound.

There has been a terrific effort made by the staff, by the corporation, to imp rove the operation and indeed according to the report that was prepared by Ernst & Young consulting on behalf of the committee, on behalf of the Min ister, it states that as of July 31, 19 89 the commercial lines showed a profit of over $1 million. Mr. Speaker: Order , please. I am having great difficulty hearing the remarks being put on the record by the Honourable Member for Brandon East. An Honourable Member: Fun ny, I hear his every word. An Honourable Member: I will trade you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Leonard Evans: This is a very serious matter affecting many empl oyees and their families. They do not know whether they are going to have a job next month or not, and I would trust Members would not treat this matter lightly. They may not have heard, but the Minister responsible for MPIC now has the letter signed by 69 individ uals wondering what is going to happen. They say the y are very anxious to know. They and their families are pleading with the Minister for some specific informa tion. They want to be fairly treated, and I would trust the Min ister would want to see that they are fairly treated.

As I said the report prepared for the Minister nowhere sugge sts that the company should be sold. As a matter of fact, the report indicates a substantial profit for the commercial lines, and for the personal lines there has been a dramatic turnaround as well. The amount of money; yes there has been a loss, but it is sign ificantly less than in the past if you take the commercial and personal lines together as a

section of the corporati on. That

section is profitable. It goes beyond just making profit. I mean we want public organizations to be able to pay their way, so it is not subsidized by the public. I am sure all of us share in that desire, but at the same time we must not loose sight of the fact that the General Insur ance Division plays a very important role in this province to this society. I would like to remind Members that there are countless numbers of organizations and people in this province who cannot get private insurance, or if the y get it, it is at such a cost that it would dr ive them out of business or they could not operate.

I will give you some examples, the Manitoba Practical Nur ses Asso ciation are dependent on MP IC for insurance. The Manitoba Chi ldcare Association and its associated day care centres are depending on MPIC for in suran ce. There are many , many recreat ional facilities and companies that cannot get insurance. There are riding stables and ski resorts in this province that cannot get coverage. There are many marina operators, and one very popular recrea tional facility namely the Prairie Dog Central relies on MPIC for its insurance.

So if you wipe out MPIC, you may be wiping out the Prairie Dog Central as a recr eational facility in this province, because the rates that the private sectors are charging are just formi dable. It just would not allow many of these operations to carry on. Construction contractors who undertake municip al and other projects in the North, including the town of Churchill and Nativ e settlements, depend on MPIC for insurance.

Without MPIC, for instance, I do not belie ve that we would have contr actors willing to work up in the town of Churchill or to engage in other municipal public works on behalf of communities in the North. There are many school boards that depend on the General Insurance Division of MPIC. There are a number of small busi nesses. I mentioned some recrea tional busi nesses, but there are aerial spray applic ators and pest exterminator firms, for example. I received, as a matter of fact, a copy that was sent to the Minister of MPIC this was last May of 1988 expressing their concern.

I will just read one paragraph from the owner of this small busi ness in the City of Winnip eg, quote: we are extremely alarmed by the announ cement that was made in the Winnip eg Free Press newspaper on Tuesday, May 10, 1988, which states that you are going to eliminate the General Insur ance Division of MPIC. Are you aware of the fact that you will be putting our company out of busine ss by eliminating the General Insur ance Division of MPIC as there are no priv ate insur ance companies that will insure us for liabil ity insurance, and thus we will not be able to obtain our pesticide appl icators licence? 2922

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 (Mr. Jerry Storie, Acting Speaker , in the Chair) •

(1440) In other words, Mr. Acting Speaker , this company says it will not be able to operate if MPIC goes out of the general insurance busin ess. It will go out plus other companies like it in the City of Winnipeg. As I said, there are all these other organizations. There are hundr eds and hundreds of organizations and individuals who are dependent on this, and I do not know whether the Min ister realizes. I wish the Minis ter was able to listen me.

Unfortuna tely, he is not able to listen to me, and I cannot say why he is not able to listen to me, but I trust he will read my remarks in Hansard- An Honourable Member: I wish you would do MDS first, because I have to leave too. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, Mr. Acting Speaker , one at a time. The fact is, the report that was prepared for the Min ister and for the committee stated that this was one of the advantages of keeping the Government in this busi ness. That is stated quit e clearly on page 23. There are other advantages, according to the report, why the Government should carry on.

Another one is, it acts as a stabili zer in the marketplace. MPIC has an abili ty, they belie ve without incurring losses, to offset what could be happening in the private sector. I might add, according to some in surance insid ers, they believe that is one of the strongest arguments for retai ning MPIC general line s, because it prevents massive price gouging by the ind ustry. These are the words that have been used by agents in the busin ess, that it prevents price gouging that can occur from time to time.

By price gouging, I mean where there are two or more in surers acting in collusion or in concert and decide, somehow or other , to divide up the coverage areas and then jack up the premiums. The fact is that this is a benefit. The refore, it is a benefit to the people of Manitoba, to policy holde rs present and future, to have the MPIC in the busi ness to act as this counter balance, to act as a stabil izer. It is very difficult to measure this, but nevertheless, this is a sign ificant benefit to the people of Manitoba. It is not measured in the balance sheets of MPIC, but there is a value there as well.

To the credit of the Ernst & Young consulting company , they did point this out as an advantage for carrying on in the busin ess. Another advantage is, it would allow the Government to obtain other social objectives, which you might have from time to time with regard to General Insurance. It says there may or may not be financial costs associated with this. Nevert heless, this is an advantage. The Government can, through its corporation, through the general lines business, allow for certain social objectives to be met, for instance, such as day care centres to operate that may not be able to operate otherwise.

Then this is good, and this is of value. A fourth advantage that the report refers to is emp loyee retention, and that is the retention of jobs. Now, the number of jobs will vary depending on which

section you are talking about, but there are a lot of 2923 jobs, both in Winnip eg and in the City of Brandon, and many of these are what are referred to as "un derwriting jobs." Both in the personal and commercial lines, there are many, many people engaged in underwriting, many dozens of people.

The fact is, if MPIC gets out of this business those un derwrit ing jobs will not go to a private company in the Province of Manitoba, because my information is this underwriting task is largely done outside of the province, in Toronto or Montreal, who knows, New York, Chicago, whe rever, but we do not have that kind of work available in the province. So it is not a matter of saying, well, we will privatize it, those jobs will be picked up by the private sector anyway, that is not the case. Those jobs will be gone.

They will be gone, I would submit, probably forever if this Minis ter proceeds or the Government proceeds to sell off this company . So there are many, many reasons why the Government should carry on. The report does refer to a very important prob lem, and that is, the fact that there has been some erosion of the sales by the corporation. They have been improving their profits, but there has been some erosion of sales. Partly, it is because of the attitude and the statements made by this Min ister.

This Minister has made statements from time to time, since being in office the last year and a half, hinting, well, at some time we are going to get rid of it or we are considering it, it is busi ness as usual now. At one point he said, but eventually we are going to get rid of it, we are going to sell it, we are going to div est ourselves of it. In the meantime, what are the agents to do? What are the agents expected to do who are supp osed to be selling these policies? I un derstand that the Gene ral Insurance lines have come up with some new favourable packages, packages of protection that are very attractive.

They have recently had meet ings with the people in the indus try to explain to them some of their new offerings and so on. Very attractive, but the agents are saying, fine, you are coming up with some new packages of insurance coverage that look very attractive, but are you going to be in busin ess next month or six months from now? How do you expect us to sell this to people who do not belie ve that you are going to be in busine ss? The report refers to this as a problem.

It says unless dealt with soon this erosion may place MPIC in a position where it finds itself by default out of the personal and commercial busin ess, and further delay will make some strateg ic options more difficult to implement. That is a direct qu ote from page 3 of the report, Mr. Acting Speaker . I say that the Minister and the Government in handling this is ruining the business that is existing there, and furthermore they are causing a great deal of anxiety to the empl oyees and their families, and it just is not fair.

I would say that it borders on utter callousness for this Minister to carry on; he seems to be ind ifferent to it. He is not here to listen to my words although he was originally listening. He seems to be indifferent to my critici sms of this and the concerns that I have. These

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 emplo yees and their fami lies, many li ve in my constitue ncy, but there are just as many-in fact there are more tha t live in the City of Brandon. I have talked to many of them, and I know they are very anxious. They wonder what is in store for them, what will happen to them and their families. Mr. Acting Speaker , it is a real joke. This Government pompously talks about how concerned they are about decentral ization, all their great ideas of decentralization, and every once in a while we get some huf fery and puffery as to what is going to happen.

Well, who knows, maybe someday we will get a statement, but in the meantime they are undermining a substantial number of jobs in the City of Brandon. I am sure the Minis ter of Brandon West, or the Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae), would be very anxious I would hope that there be as many jobs as possible in the City of Brandon. That is part of decentral ization. That is part of regional development within this province, and yet in a major way this Government is in the process of un dercutting good solid jobs in that city.

This is where the major underwriting goes on, in fact all the underwriting goes on for the personal lines handled by MPIC, and in one stroke this Min ister and this Government is going to put all those people out of work. Well, I say so much for decentral ization, so much for jobs outside of the City of Winnip eg. You know, this whole process makes a mockery of what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minis ter of Rural Development (Mr. Penner) talk about, decentral ization.

It is just an utter bunch of non sense from the mouths of the Government side when they are talking about how concerned they are about decentralizat ion, when they are attacking something that is well esta blished, and as I said is performing a service that is useful and good within the province. Mr. Acting Speaker , the report goes on and analyses the financial operations in some detail, and as I said, it makes it clear that there has been a considerable amount of progress, that there has been a reversal of past trends, and that given an opportunity both the commercial and the personal lines would be profitable.

The commercial lines are now substantially profitable and, given some additional time the way the personal lines are going, they should be profitable very soon as well. * (14 50) I say simply , why not leave the corporation alone, just let the Government leave its hands off MPIC, let MPIC management and staff do their thing. They are perfo rming a val uable service for the people of Manitoba. They are acting it as a counterbalance to probably some excessive rate increases we could see around this province.

They are acting in a way that helps a lot of social agencies, small business who cannot get insurance otherwise. So I say leave them alone, and they will carry on and impro ve their financial position. Ther e should be no question that they are a net asset to the province, but as I said, Mr.

Acting Speak er, and again I look at page 13 of the report that the executives of MPIC have the impression that most agents and brokers want to have the unce rtainty regard ing the future of the P and C operations of MPIC resolved, so that the agents can then go ahead and plan their future product offerings to their customers with some certaint y. I say we probably have the worst of all possible worlds. The Government keeps on saying they are going to sell it.

In the meantime, the MPIC is suppos ed to try to do its best to make a go of this, and every once in a while the Minis ter issues a public statement or is quoted in the media, and he un dermines the good work that is being done by the corporation and by the staff. Well, that, Mr. Acting Speaker , is just not acceptable. It is poor adminis tration. It is poor Government. I can tell you that there are many people in the province who are concern ed.

I have mentioned one letter that I received from a small company, but there are these other organizations that are very concerned as well that they may be put out of business by the actions of this Min ister and this Government. Tell this to the Practical Nu rses Association or tell this to the Manitoba Child Care Association or tell it to the people who run the Prairie Dog Central which is a very fine summertime recreat ional facility and attracts tourists to the Province of Manitoba. Tell it to these people what you are up to.

I do not know whether all of them realize that this Minis ter is about to put some of them out of busi ness. That is what this Government is about to do. Well, Mr. Acting Spe aker, I can tell you the people of Brandon are very anxious about what is happening. The City Council passed a resolution on this matter last year. I know the Chamber of Commerce has written, and the Economic Development Board has written, I know the Brandon and District Labour Council has taken a stand, all concerned about the loss of jobs in the City of Brandon.

As I said before, this move, this statement, this act by the Government makes a mockery of every thing they have said about decentraliza tion, a pure total mockery. I can tell you that when the MGEA president, Mr. Peter Olfert, appe ared before the City Council of Brandon-this was about a year ago in November of 1988-the City Council received Mr. Olfert very well. He presented a comprehensive brief explaining the situation with regard to General Insurance of MPIC and he was very well received .

The council unan imously su pported the position of MGE A and presumably conv eyed th at view to the Mi nis ter and to the Government. But this Minis ter and this Government seems to be oblivious to all of that, oblivious to the stand of the Cha mber of Commerce, the Labour Council, oblivious to the stand of the City Council. Also, Mr. Acting Speaker , I would remind the Minis ter and the Government that we had a petition which was signed by thousands of people in the area and inde ed from other parts of Manitoba urging the Government to reverse its decision to elimi nate the General Insurance division.

I participated in getting some signa tures, but I can tell you we got lots of support from the commun ity. It was no difficulty at all in getting people to sign the petition. We went to various community malls, other 2924

Thursday, November 16, 1989 community places, and people to a man, to a women, were ag hast th at this Gov ernment was about to elimi nate a large numb er of jobs in the City of Brandon. What is this Government doing to us? They talk about decentralization and they are shafting us, where do I sign, and we got thousands of signa tures, Mr. Acting Spea ker. At any rate, regardless of what we seem to do, it falls on deaf ears.

We have had delegations, the City Council was supposed to have sent in a delegation, we have had letters, the Minis ter has had letters from some small companies, I have asked a number of questions, I have brought forward resolutions, I have made it a habit or a point of asking questions from time to time in the House on the matter, and we seem to be punching pi llows. Every once in a while you get this

article in the paper with a picture of the Mini ster saying that MPIC General Insur ance is up for sale. Here it is, November 4, 19 89, Saturday edition of The Wi nnip eg Free Press, "Ins urance Division up for Sale-Go vernment ready to accept offers for MPIC general arm." Well, I say, Mr.

Acting Speak er, that this is not in the pu blic in terest; it is no t in the in terest of th ose policyholders who are very vulnerable; it is not in the in terests of the employees; it is not in the interests of Manitoba soci ety, those polic yhol ders who are dependent on this; it is not in the interest of jobs in this province because you are going to lose unde rwriting jobs that will go out of the province that we will not get; and it is not in the interest of decentralization of economic activity which we always seem to give a lot of lip-service, to but all we have seen is the reverse.

Ins tead the Government gi ves li p-service to decentraliza tion, then turns around and sticks it in the back, more or less, of the communities by eliminating jobs. There are other examples I could point out, Mr. Acting Speaker, that I could refer to about eliminating jobs. One of this is the fact that a major nursing home is closing in the City of Brandon, albeit a time-expired facil ity, the International Nursing Home. At one point it had 44 staff and it accommodated approxi mately 40- or-so people who were handic apped.

Admittedly , it was one that had seen better days but, nevertheless, we had that eliminated. The jobs were eliminated, 44 jobs, thank you very much, that is decentralization. It was a decision made by the depa rtment, by the Min ister, they would no longer fund that facil ity. No attempt was made to replace th ose beds with new beds in the area. So much for 44 jobs. Simila rly with the Rideau Park facil ity, another 15 jobs approximately were elimina ted. Again, thanks a lot for your decentralization efforts.

In the meantime, we do not have enough staffing to look after patients at BMHC and the patients at the Rideau Park facil ity. They say thanks a lot to the Filmon Government for decentral ization. We are going backwards. Well, as I said, I would urge this Min ister to admit to the fact that the report gives a lot of good reasons why we should carry on in the General Insurance busi ness. I would hope th erefore that he will see the light and recognize this and say to the public and say to the industry, yes, we are going be in it.

We are going to stick by MPIC, and give them a chance to carry on and continue to provide the valuable service that they do to the people of the Province of Manitoba. I would hope that we do not get this continuous line that we have been getting from the Minis ter. While we are going to sell it some day and every once in a while he gets reported in the press to that effect, in the meantime killing the busine ss, he will not have to elimina te it. He would simply- (Mr. Richard Kozak, Acting Spea ker, in the Chair) The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kozak): The Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) on a point of order. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Acting Speake r, I wonder if we can have a Chamber count. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kozak): The Chair would request all Members present to rise. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Mr. Cheema, Mr. Kozak, Mr. Lamoureux, Mr. Leonard Evans, Hon. Mr. Pen ner, Mr. He lwer, Mr. Praznik, Hon. Mr. Neufeld, Hon. Mr. Ducharme, Mr. Burrell. Mr. Leonard Evans: I wonder if you could indicate, Mr. Acting Speaker, how many minutes i have left. How many minutes do I have left, 10 minutes? Twelve, okay, thank you.

I would like to use the remai ning time that I have to talk about the Manitoba Data Services because here we have a clear case of a corporation that has been profitable ever since it was established and, as a matter of fact, -(i nterjection)- Well, for the information of the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Duch arme) who is making comments from his seat about this I think, this was a Crown corporation set up by Sterling Lyon. .. (15 00) At any rate, Mr. Acting Spea ker, this is one that all of us should be proud of.

Manitoba Data Services provides mainframe computer services to Government departments and Crown agencie s, and is available to provide it to the private sector as well, although most ·of the busi ness is with the Government. The fact is year after year this corporation has shown a profit and, furthermore year after year, it has done so while at the same time simultaneously reducing the rates. The rates have been reduced, I know, 10 years in a row. Looking at the 1988 Annual Report of the Manitoba Data Services, the report states on page 3 that since 19 81 we have announc ed nine rate reductions.

I said 10, I should have said nine. The results being that a unit of computing, which clients paid $1 .00 for in 1981, now costs them only 45.6 cents. In other words, not only have we had profit made but we have had a consistent reduction in the cost of these services to the Government dep artments and agencies. Yet, the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) continues to say that he wants to sell this. He wants to divest 2925

Thursday, November 16, 1989 the corpora tion, and inde ed this is un der active consideration. There are some potential buyers who have made application. I believe he said the other day in committee that he is down to two or three, but the fact is that it is not in my judgment in the public interest to sell MOS. It is not in the public interest for a couple of reasons. One of which we are concerned about confidentiality of records of the public.

We believe that it is in contravention of The Li brary Act of this province whereby no documents that are being held within the public domain about individuals or individual companies should be let out of the public domain. Let out of the public sector into the hands of people who are not sworn to an Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen or not sworn an oath of secrecy. The fact is that is a concern and I know a lot of people will say, well, we can handle this. We have the technology to handle it Mr. Acting Speak er, there are conferences today that are being held.

There is one that was held just a few days ago in Guelph where international experts were discussing this very question of confidentiality of records held by large computer companies, and the problem of that information being leaked. The whole question of ethical standards is a very interesting subject, but it is a concern that we have in this Party. That is one of the reasons we believe that MOS should not be put into the private sector but should remain in the public domain doing the fine job that it has. Every Party agrees that it has been doing an excellent job. We ha ve been in the committee.

Everyone, the Con servative, Li beral, ou rselves, and the New Democratic Party have stated together that it is an excellent corpora tion, fine staff. It has done a good job. Nobody has any criticisms of it. It is an excellent organ ization, and yet the Mini ster wants to get rid of it. The other point that we are conc erne d about, di vest itur e will mean th at in our judgm ent the Government could be putting itself in a position where it could be ripped off by a private company . In other words, no one will want to buy MOS unless there is some assurance of sales to the Government.

They will want to know for X number of years that they have a sure thing, that they have a guar antee of sales to Government dep artments and agencies. I say, Mr. Acting Speak er, how do we know that in that process where you are actually handing out a monopoly or certainly a qua si-monopoly to a private company that you are not going to get ripped off? I say that because what has been happening with new techno logy, there has been these rate reductions. How do we know that we will continue to get the favourable rate reductions, or if there is a reduction whether it is a reduction that has gone far enough?

In keeping with the technological improvements with the new equipment and so on, and other efficiencies that may have been achieved, we will have no way of knowing that. So here we go. We virtually give away a company . I would maintai n, Mr . Ac ting Sp eak er, we would guarantee the busi ness to them, and we would have no idea where we are paying excessive amounts. So what benefit is there in that? So what benefit is there in that whatsoever? The Min ister says, well, we are going to get great economic development from it. He has not been able to show us this.

He has some kind of report from the Department of Indu stry, but we have not seen it. I mean he is just making an assertion, and, Mr. Acting Speaker, I doubt very much whether it will do anything whatsoever in terms of economic development. As a matter of fact, MOS is a public organization and has caused some economic spinof f to occur in terms of manufac turing jobs in the computer field. That has occu rred . I will not go into the details, but that has occurred in the past, and it can occur in the future. So we do not need to privatize MOS to have economic development. So, Mr.

Acting Speak er, we have a lot of concerns about this. I would like to get the support of the House to be able to persuade the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness) to change his mind to get the Min ister of Finance to see the light He himself has said it is a good organization. He himself admits he has the reports, that there have been a number of improvements in the organization over the year allowing for rate reduction. Mr.

Acting Speaker , as I said, the Min ister has to come up with the answer to the question that we have, of whether the move by the Government is in cont rave ntion of The Legislative Libr ary Act, because

Section 12(1) of that Act says that no person shall remove pu blic records from files or offices of a department or agency of Government, or from the possession or control of a department or agency of Government. We have no feedback from the Minis ter. We do not know what his legal opinion is of our point. We think we have a valid point, and we have no assurance that this Legislative Libr ary Act will not be contravened.

I trust that the Mini ster will be giving us an answer on that in due course and in fact understand that he cannot sell in our judgm ent this corporation without an amendment to that Act at least; otherwise, he is in contravention of the legislation in our opinion. Further more, we have already stated that we wish to proceed with legislation. That will ensure that the information the Government has on individuals will not be divulged. I have already introduced that Bill for first read ing in this House. Mr.

Acting Speak er, for the life of me I cannot help but think that the main reason, in fact the only reason, the Minister of Finance wants to sell the company is for ide ological reasons. That is pure and simple. I say we are prepared to take a pragmatic approach. As a matter of fact, we were pr epared to di vest the Government of Manfor. Most of the early work that was done on that was done by the New Democratic Party when it was in Government, not by this Government. They have taken the ball the last few months or so. I am not so sure whether they have done well in that process.

There is some question as to whether they have really made a good deal or not with the Repap organization, 2926

Thursday, November 16, 1989 but we are not responsible for that. I am just using that as an illustration that if there is a reason for the Crown divesting itself of a corporation, then so be it. We do not see that in the case of Manitoba Data Services. We think it is an organization that plays a very critical role and can play its best role in terms of rem aining within the public sector. So, Mr. Acting Speak er, I only wish that the Mini ster of Finance was able to hear my remarks.

That is all I will say.- (interjection)- Well, maybe he is listening in his office, I do not know, but I would trust that he would think very carefully before he will proceed. In fact, he has in dic ated some hesitation. He said, well we are not so sure that we want to sell it, and there are reasons why. He can understand there may be some reasons why the Government may wish to keep Manitoba Data Services.

I hope that the committee, and inde ed the Legislature, could persuade the Government to stay in this field. * (1510 ) As a matter of fact, what MOS has been able to do, the Government has been able to do with MOS, bring forward a lot of good things in the public sector. I know we are soon going to be in the Department of Health. I just point out that the MOS, with the St.

Boniface General Hospital, the Brandon General Hospital, and now The Pas and the Salvation Army Grace Hospital either has already or is now in process, depending on which hospital you are talking about, put in the computerization of records and has enabled those hospital admin istrations to have a far more efficient service for the patients than has raised the level of patient care. Well, I unde rstand my time has run out.

I would only trus t and pray, as do the employees of both MOS and MPIC, that the Government is listening, particularly MPIC because it is just not fair to treat these people in the callous way that the Minis ter has done over the past year and a half. It is just not right, it is not fair. I would hope he would reco nsider because he has a good organiza tion, an organization tha t all Manitobans can be proud of. Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Speaker.

QUES TION put, MOTI ON carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Suppl y to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gille shammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudr

y) in the Chair for the Department of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs. CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HEAL TH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gill eshammer): I call the Committee of Supply to order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Health. When we last met the committee ha d been considering item 4.(

a) Mental Health Administration: (1 ) Sala ries, $313, 400-the Honourable Minis ter. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister Health): We could pass it after I give this information if you want. There were a series of questions on vaccinations- 1 have copies of every thing and I think all of them there was hepatitis, pertussis, training available in the food industr y, material available for education of the general public, there is a tuberculosis pamphlet in Cree. Who asked this? -(i nterjection)- Was it Stevie Wonder again? Okay. Well, I will table these as well. It is on the incidence of mortality for 19 88. Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Honourable Member for Ellice. Ms. Avis Gray (Elli ce): Mr. Chai rperson, I just have a brief question that follows up to the questions and the Minister's comments. The other day we were in Estimates and the Min ister did ind icate that at this point in time the Assistant Deputy Min ister's position for the Mental Health Division has not been filled. I think he indi cated that there has been a bulletin and that they have had in terviews. Now I think the position is being rebulletined.

Can the Min ister indic ate to us, in the first bulletining process, did they get any applications for the position? Mr. Orchard: Yes. Ms. Gray: Then I would assume int erviews were conducted. Can the Minister ind icate, were there no candida tes who successfully met the selection criteria as set out by the selection board for tha t position? Mr. Orchard: Yes, and I belie ve that is correct. Ms. Gray: So the Minister is ind icating that in the first go round there were no candida tes that met the criteria that were considered to be suitable for the position? Mr.

Orchard: I was not part of the interviewing process, as my honourable friend could well appreciate, but the decision was made on the advice of those participating in the int erviews that we rebulletin the position. Ms. Gray: If that decision was made, I must assume that there was not any candi date who successfully met the criteria established by the board, yes or no. Mr. Orchard: There was no one offered the position as the result of those inter views on that bulletining. Ms.

Gray: If the Minister is not answering that question, then I must assume that in fact there were one or more than one candida te, candida tes who actually met the criteria. My question is: why did the board decide, after havi ng had a selection process and finding candida tes who met the criteria, to not hire anyone? Mr. Orchard: Surely my honourable friend is not saying that does not happen from time to time. It is nothing unu sual. Positions are often rebulletined and they were in this case. Ms. Gray: The positions are not often rebulletined un less there are candi dates or there are no candi dates 2927

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 who in fact meet the criteria that has already been established by the committee.

Since the Minis ter has not said that there were not candida tes who did not meet the criteria, I am assuming that one or more candida tes did meet that, and because we are now going through a second rebulletining process to hire for an Assistant Deputy Min ister, which is a fairly key position in this new reformed Mental Health System, I would say that-I guess my question would be, why was the decision made to rebulletin, and why were no candida tes chosen from the first board, given tha t it is a key position?

I would think you would want to have someone in that position, provi ding of course they met the criteria. Mr. Orchard: The last statement by my honourable friend is a correct assumption. Ms. Gray: Can the Mini ster ind icate to us, who has final say in the next round of reboarding as to if a candidate will be chosen once applications are filed and int erviews held? Mr. Orchard: The final say naturally comes to myself to recommend to Cabinet. Ms. Gray: Was there a recomm endation that came forth from the board at all for a particular candida te? Mr.

Orchard: As I ind icated four answers ago now, of the people interviewed, no one was offered the position and the position was rebulletined. Ms. Gray: Just to clarif y, I belie ve the Minis ter also indicated that it was the selection board who made that decision that no one should be recommended for the position. Is that correct? Mr. Orchard: It is correct that no one was offered the position by the selection board. Ms. Gray: I am not going to belabour this point, because I am quite aware that the Min ister is not prepared to give answers.

I guess my concern is that given the Minister's non- answers that I am wondering again if we have a situation where as, per usual with this Tory Government, they love to manipula te positions even when they do bulletin them and they very clearly decide who and who they do not want for senior positions. It really does not matter whether qualified people apply tor the job or whether even qualified people actually meet the criteria.

It almost sounds like it is predetermined who they would like for the job or who they would not like for the job and, because the Minis ter does not seem to be prepared to answer my straig htforward questions, we have to be left with that impression. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, it may be the methodology of the Li beral Party, should this province ever be so un fortunate as to ha ve the Government-in-w aiting achie ve Government. They are the same Party that the week before, the Leader described as like looking after the caucus was like looking after an adult day care centre.

Should we ever be so unfortunate, I hope my honour able fr iend, the Me mb er for Ell ice, is not descri bing how a Li beral Party would use panelling in interviews to choose their friends for senior positions in Government. That is not what we are doing. The Civil Service Commission has been involved in the selection process. If my honourable friend is saying now the Civil Service Commission is not responsible for proper hiring in the Province of Manitoba then let her make that case and let her state it right now on the record. Ms.

Gray: In fact, I think there is a lot of concerns about the Civil Service Commission and that is one of the reasons why the very Premier (Mr. Filmon) hi mself has called for an extensive audit. That is not a secret that there are concerns in the Civil Service Commission and that is an issue that will be dealt with in the Civil Service Estimates. The Premier him self, I am not sure if the Min ister of Health is aware of that, has sugg ested and is prepared to go ahead with a very extensive audit. We are pleased to hear he will do that. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, I know that my honourable friend for Ellice will be there making the accusation of the Civil Service Commission that they gerrymander the hiring process as she di d here this afternoon. Ms. Gray: If the Min ister of Health wishes to hear or read what my comments are about the Civil Service Commission, he will have ample opportunity to do that once we go through that particular Estimates process and he can read for him self or listen for himself exactly what my concerns are ab out the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Chairperson, the other day when we finished the Estimates the question was asked regard ing the ADM's position. Can the Minis ter of Health give us an approxim ate indication when that position will be hired? • (1 520) Mr. Orchard: I will have to dig up the bulletin for my honourable friend to find out when the rebulletining deadline is, but senior staff ind icate that approxi mately two months ought to be a reasonable expected time frame. Mr. Cheema: In the meantime, the present person who is filling the position, he or she will be carrying on the duties? Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, can the Min ister of Health tell us that in hiring the individual who will be qu alified tor the job, wha t will be the terms of agreement? I think it is a concern to me personally because last year there was an Assistant Deputy Minister who was fired from the job, and there was a 2928

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 problem with the cont ract, so that the Government of the Day does not enter into any contr act with the other people or which may not be in the right int erests of the taxpayers of Manitoba. Also, at the same time we are advocating for a new system, a reform system. If you are going to have a position and want to make sure that that person has a commitment and will carry on the duties because as we have discussed earli er, the results of the reforms are not going to show within a year or two. It may take a long time.

So I just want a firm commitment from the Min ister that a decision will be made taking all the facts into consideration. Mr. Orchard: I know we discussed the Associate Deputy Min ister contract that we did terminate as of June 30, 1988. I indi cated clearly then that that was a traves ty, really, of the parliamentar y system to have those kinds of long- term contracts in place. I have no intention of retaining any of my senior people on a long-term contractual basis. The ADM of Mental Health in this case, as are all ADMs, and I believe even executive dir ectors are Order in-Council appointments. Mr.

Chairman, I will let any of the appointments I have made stand the test of a change of Government because I belie ve I have put com petent people in those positions. I have not put any person, as the Member for Ellice's colleague is alleging, who happened to be friends of the "P arty." The people that we ha ve raised and elevated to professional positions and senior positions by Order in-Council, I have every confidence will stand the test of a change in Government regardless.

Well, I cannot speak for my honourable friends in the New Democratic Party, but the y will stand the test of a would-be Li beral Government in waiting, because people who are com petent and who un derstand the min istry and have a command of the issues, and are on a reform agenda have been placed in those senior positions and I am confident of their capability or they would not be there. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Cha irperson, I think it is extremely impo rtant that positions such as the ADMs or any higher position in the Department of Health or any other department has to have a balance that you hire the best possible people, but at the same time give them the reason that if they want to choose to change their positions but at the same time taxpayers of Manitoba are paying for those things. I think they deserve the best so that we do not end up in a situation such as we are facing with Mr. Kaufman. That is what I wanted to make sure, that we do not have it repeated. Mr.

Orchard: If you are saying, are we going to hire senior Order -in-Council positions by contract, no, that is not an intention. I do not intend to do that as Min ister of Health. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chair person, can the Minis ter of Health tell us how many other positions are vacant under the Manitoba Health adminis trati on, under this section? Mr. Orchard: We have a vacancy, of course, at the ADM level which we have just been discussing. We have a vacancy of a program specialis t and that is in the appropriation that we are on right now, 4.(a)(i), the admin istrat ion. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, how long has the position of program specialist been vacant, what has been done to fulfil! the position, and who is providing the role for the same position? Mr. Orchard: Th at ha s been vacant now for approxima tely six months, five to six months, and we have not advertised the program specialist position to date. Mr. Cheema: You have not? Mr. Orchard: No, have not. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chai rperson, is this position part of the reform system? Mr. Orchard: Every thing in the division now is part of the reform system. There is no part of it that is not in

part involved in the reform of Mental Health. Mr. Cheema: What is the role of this position? The Minister is saying that everyt hing is a part of the reform system. I am particularly interested, was this position a new position when they announced last year the reform of the Mental Health system? Mr. Orchard: No, this is an existing position in the ADM's office. It is not a new position that was created as a result of the Mental Health reforms. Mr. Cheema: Why has the position not been bulletined so far? Mr.

Orchard: It is because we are using the-you see, the former Assistant Deputy Min ister had hip surgery, and in having his hip surgery he had a medical leave, but was still technic ally on staff. Although the position was vacant in terms of someone delivering the service, the incumbent, the former ADM of Mental Health, was still in there until the end of October. Yes, he had stepped down as the ADM, and we had an acting ADM, so he is no longer in service but accumula ted medical leave. · He still had the position filled until October 30. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, can the Mini ster define the role of this position? Mr. Orchard: The position is used for developing policy papers, developing position papers, analytical work in terms of program, analytical work in terms of what is happening in other jurisdictions in terms of Mental Health. A program specialist -I cannot be any more defin itive. Mr . Cheema: I think, Mr. Chairperson, I am asking a specific question. Is a program specialist where you have to have some goal in mind to have the position?

Is this position for the clinical deliv ery of the services or as a managerial position, or is this person going to be in charge of a specific

section of Mental Health? 2929

Thursday, November 16, 1989 Mr. Orchard: I understand what my honourable friend said, yes. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Cha irperson, we do not have an ADM. The position is vacant. We do not have this person, the other program specialist now. As the Minis ter has said, that may take a few months for both the positions to be filled. Can the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) assure us how they are going to fulfil! all those obligations, the new program they have started, without at least two key positions in the major department? * (15 30) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, the in itiat ives of Mental Health reform that we restarted were built within a numb er of people who are cu rrently wit hin the department. Those initia tives were initia ted, developed , and the leadership come out of the ADM and staff that are there. It involved a tremendous amount of co operation with a num ber of outside organizations who had to understand where Government was wanting to go and in ma ny ways offer advice, agreement, di sagreement with the proposal.

The reorganization of the department and the new staffing that are incumb ent in the reorganization are an impo rtant component of carrying on the reform agenda. The basic tenet and the basic unde rlying principl es of the reform of Mental Health are laid out and will be built upon by the full recruitment at ADM and other positions within the reorganization that we are in the process of recru iting. For instance, we are recr uiting dir ectors to the various areas of the reorgan ized Mental Health Division.

At this stage it is only appropria te to thank the staff that has been involved to date, because it has put a tremendous additional workload on a num ber of key staff, many of whom are here today. That is recognized as not an acceptable long-term range, but I think that it has been accepted as sort of a labour of love, if you will, because there is a significant amount of progr ess and certainly involvement and momentum with reform that is building in the commun ity that is suppor ted in the community by a numb er of different organizations involved in mental health.

Clearly, a year from now I could be fully faulted for not having those ADM positions and dir ector positions recruited and thos e people delivering service and sharing the workload of reform, but that will not be the case, Mr. Chairman. That simply will not be the case. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chai rperson, is this position first open to the pr esent emp loyees of the Me ntal He alth Department? Mr.

Orchard: Yes, all positions are open for any ind ividual to apply within the current staffing in the Mental Health Division and indeed across Health and across the Civil Service as well as outside, because all of the positions including the dir ectors have been advertised nationally . Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chai rperson, as we are discussing the major reorganization of the Mental Health system, I would like to ask the Min ister, have they consi dered developing a program or a program director who would have knowledge of the multicultural aspect of the Mental Health system? Are they thinking in that dir ection? Mr.

Orchard: Yes, as an initia tive of Government we have be gun di scus sions with the mul ticultur al community on a Multicultural Health Directorate, an im portant component of which will be mental health services to newcomers to Manitoba. I do not need to give my honourable friend examples, because he knows the system. The challenges faced by newcomers in mental health are substantially different because of language and cultural barriers that they have to become accustomed to.

Some of the newcomers, particularly some of the Central American newcomers, not only have language and culture, but often they have left their countries in very unsavoury circumstances. They have often been subjected to, or are victims of, suppression in their homeland. There is that additional stress that they need counselling. That is part of the multicultural health approach that we are developing. I tell my honourable friend that we have had some very good co-operation in feedback on our prop osal from mem bers of Manitoba's multicultural commun ity. Mr. Cheema: I think we discus sed that

part in the Research and Planning part of Manitoba Health. Why I am concerned, at this stage, for the Mental Health Services Division is that I think we have to realize the reality of Manitoba, the population of newcomers, and when we are dev eloping a system, which is going to meet the needs of those ind ividuals, it is extremely im portant to have someone who has the knowledge whether he or she is willing to learn about the system, which can be given to all of these individuals who are newcomers.

Definitely not onl y they will benefit but I think Manitoba taxpayers will result in the benefits of a reformed health care system. Can the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider havi ng a separate position or a program director, within the Mental Health Directorate, who would be assigned for a specific position to deal with these problems? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, yes, because that is what we have done. We have worked with, as I say, the multicul tural commu nity in terms of the needs of newcomers to Manitoba.

We are in the process of establishing a staff position in the Winnipeg region that will provide both dir ect services and consultation in the area of mental health services to newcomers. We have that position currently being delivered by a member of the regional staff and the first vacancy that we have in the Winnip eg region, we will use that position and advertise appropriately for an ind ividual as I have just described. He will have both dir ect service and consultation resp onsibil ities for mental health services to newcomers. 2930

November 1989 Mr. Cheema: I thank the Minis ter for that answer. I think it will go a long way to help these in dividuals, and also as I said it will ultima tely save tax dollars. While I am on this multicultural mental health services, I am sure the Minister has also received a questionnaire from the Manitoba Mental Health Association and I think all the Parties did receive one. They had a specific question that deals with multicultural mental health services. The fi rst question they are concerned with is: will the Minis ter form a multicultural health advisory comm ittee to deal with the mental health issues?

Mr. Orchard: When was that done? Was that the one for the last election? Mr. Cheema: No, this was sent by the Canadian Mental Health Association and sent to all the MLAs. I am sure the Minister must have received the questionnair es too. Mr. Orchard: Basically that also is in process as I described earli er, in terms of the multicultur al Health Advi sory commit tee with a component being of course mental health issues to newcomers and to the mu ltic ultural communit y.

It is no t only dir ect Government, because one of our program specialists is also working on the multicu ltural mental health policy and init iative. I mentioned this before, and I am not sure if it was during the Estimate process or not, but I had the opportunity during Mental Health, or Mental Illne ss Awareness Week-I always get the names wrong, but Mental Illness Awareness Week.

I was to Mount Carmel Clinic, because they that week chose the week, and the activities of the week, to formally establish and give space or allocate space to a newcomers volunteer group who were Spanish spea king, and prov iding mental health services and support services to newcomers from Central America who are under the kinds of stress of dislocation, under very disturbing circu mstan ces from their homelands and their native countries. That was being init iated at no cost to Govern ment, no request for funds from Government, because it is staffed by volun teers.

Gov ernment, I su ppose, is involved only to the extent that 10 years ago the Mount Carmel Clinic was reconstructed and the space and the environment is there for them to use it as a basis of operation, because the group had been offering services from other locations for a couple of years now. is the kind of init iative that I think my honourable friend is identi fying is a need. It is the kind of initia tive that has been identified over the last num ber of years.

I think it is fair to say that we are recognizing it and making some significant process to addr essing mental issues amongs t the mul ticultural commu nity and particularly newcomers. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chair person, a further qu estion as regards to the multicul tural aspect of mental health. There was a report by the hea ding: "After the Door has Opened ," report of the Canadian Task Force on Mental Health Issues affecting imm igrants and refugees of 19 88 from Ottawa by Health and Welfare Canada.

Can the Min ister of Health tell us is he aware of that repor t and wha t reco mmendations are they going to follow from that report? 2931 * (15 40) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I have not read that report, but certainly mental health staff have read the report. I think it is fair to say that a numb er of the issues that were identified in there are either being acted upon right now or are in the process of being actioned by this Government. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, the Minister of Health outlined some of the ini tiatives they are taking and definitely that is going to be helpful, because those are some of the reports and recommendations there. My specific question is: how much funds have they allocated to deal with the mental health services to the immi grants, to the refugees, to the aboriginal people? Also do we- Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman- Mr. Cheema: Can we delay that question at a later stage? If the Min ister wants to answer that question at a later date, when we are discussing the budget part that is fine, but I just want him to be aware of that.

I think we need to know that exact amount of money spent on that issue. Also let me add my third question to that. What is this Govern ment's commitment to the women especially for this disadvantaged group, the newcomers, the refugees, the et hnic mino rities and the aboriginal people, to deal with the mental health illness which is quite prevalent and most of the time is under the surface?

It does not come out that often because most people are not aware of the services available, No. 1; No. 2, they have a language problem; No. 3, they have the cultural barriers; No. 4, ultima tely they have very little knowledge of the whole system. Wha t is this Government doing to promote the init iatives to deal with all these problems, as I have outlined? Mr. Orchard: You see, Mr. Chairman, I cannot pull out an exact dollar as to how many resources are being ded icated specifically and exclusively to newcomer mental health or multicultural mental health.

I guess we have taken a sign ificantly different approach in that, with the discussions we have had with the mult icultural commun ity and newcomers, in unde rstan ding their needs, we believe it is appropria te that we do not simply-although we are appointing, we intend to appoint a staff person to be the, if you will, focus of that in itiative, but that will not be the only ind ividual responsible. We intend-and the process is ongoing to sensitize, if you will, all of the staff including regional staff to the issue of multicultural health. I say tha t using myself as an example.

I cannot understand, and 15 months ago, 18 months ago when I walked into the office, I did not have an appreciation for the mental health issues as they faced newcomers, in terms of stress, in terms of how they, being refugees, being outcasts from their own countries, because of political dissidence, political up heaval, unr est. I cannot put myself in that kind of a position,

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 because I was born and educa ted here. I had no language problems and no cultural problems, et cetera, et cetera. I think it is fair to say that a lot of people cannot put thems elves into that und erstan ding mode, if you will, to come around the complexities of the issue and really, in most cases probab ly, it is a much simpler problem to resolve if you un derstand the uniq ueness through language barriers, cultural sensitivities or simply what the individual has gone through, in terms of leaving their home coun try, their fami ly, and their friends.

What we are attempting to do, through discussions, through advice, through work with the multicultur al commun ity, is to sensit ize our program pl anners, our senior executives, our mental health workers and our regional delivery staff to the issue. It is not something that we are going to shelve off over to one corner to one individual for a responsibil ity, solely and exclusi vely. There will be an ind ividual who will be the specialist in the area. The intention is to have a wider und erst anding of the issue amongst all staff. It is only with that kind of wider unders tanding of the issue amongst all staff.

Let me tell you that fits exactly the agenda of this week's theme for Mental Illness Week; more awareness of the issue, remove the stigma. Removing the stigma is gaining knowledge and gaining un derstan ding of the problem, its uniqu eness, its challenges, and thereby finding its solutions.

I simply cannot give my honourable friend a dollar numb er as to how much we will be dedicating to the issue of mu lticultural mental health, because it is an across the division ini tiative that all people will be involved in to some degree with certain focal points within the department, in terms of program specialists and staff positions dedicated to the multicultural mental health. Certainly a building of an awareness across the division. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, why I want to spend time on this issue is because I think the staff as such is doing an excellent job to provide these services and we are in the process of reforming the system. If at this stage we do not address that

section of it, or a segment of society, which is a sign ificant num ber now in the multicu ltural new Canadians, immigr ant refugees and aboriginal people, we will miss that and then any Government will be blamed in a few years time. I think in my situation even I will be doing a disservice if I do no t bring, as a person on the street, and being Opposition Critic I think it is extremely im portant for me to let the Government know that there is another

section there which can be helped, and ultima tely you know the Government is going to be helped. The num ber of services these people use when they come to this country is enormous. If you simply took at the statistics from the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion the numb er of minor nervous problems these people go through is tremendous and that is a definite drain on the tax dollars. To save those tax dollars by prov iding them the best possible care, I think the service can be del ivered and ulti mately I think the system will be better than what we have today. * (15 50) Mr.

Orchard: I do not have difficulty accept ing my honourable friend's knowledge of this. I simply say that is why we have taken the direction tha t we are taking in terms of mu lticultural mental health issues and mu lticultural health issues in general. In taking this kind of ini tiative, and with the experience we have had, I think we are being recognized at the national level, because currently there is a federal provincial territorial working group on women and health.

It is preparing policy documents on women's health for the Deputy Minis ters of Health for their consider ation at a regular Deputy Minis ter's Health meeting. Manitoba is making a major contribution to the work of this group. We are preparing a policy paper on mental health as a specific issue which will help lay the foundation of a policy relating to women in mental health that the Deputy Ministers nationally will consider. Gomi Puri, from our department, from the Mental Health Division, is writing that paper.

I think that is indica tive of the rec ognition Manitoba has ach ieved in advancing this issue and having some very sound knowledge based on experience to offer to the rest of Canada. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): We are dealing with the mental health of multicultural groups and I think that the biggest multicultural group in Manitoba is our Native people. I wonder what initia tive the Min ister has taken or the department has taken to deal with some of the difficulties that the Native people of northern Manitoba are dealing with. Mr.

Orchard: My honourable friend is right and we are addr essing that issue as well. We have been naturally part of ongoing federal-provincial level discussions in terms of trai ning on the issue of providing mental health trai ning to Native health workers. I guess we have broken first ground in Manitoba in tha t we have a mental health worker from the Brokenhead-Ojibw ay Nation and that indi vidual is currently taking training in children's mental health issues.

We are working with ongoing development of a speciali zed training package or series of specialized training packages in conjunction with mental health medical services and the band councils. Basically our goal is to attempt to provide training so that Nativ es can be involved in service delivery in the most culturally sensitive way that they only can deliv er, I think it is fair to say. Mr. Harapiak: A few years ago there was-and I am not sure if the statistics have changed any or not but there was a large num ber of suicides in the community of Cross Lake.

I am wondering if the Min ister has had any follow-up to the Mental Health meetings that they had in that commun ity to give Nativ e people more participation and more of a role to play in what the y saw as the needs of northern Native people. I am wondering if the Min ister has any follow-up to the meeting that was held within that commun ity. Has there been any results from that? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, let me deal with another issue that I know my honourable friend is going to be 2932

Thursday, November 16, 1989 extremely int erested in, because under the Partners for Health Initia tive, after the fire and the trauma that a lot of Native youngs ters went through in terms of evacuation, being shorn away from their commun ities and brought to various southern commun ities, we developed a colouring book, an activity book.

This was developed with the assistance and the design help of a Native artist so that Native childr en can go through this book and really sort of have fun with what happened this summer so that the trauma that is involved will hopefully not materialize and not cause difficulties down the road, because those children went through a tremendous, rapid, un predicted and une xpected change. I would like to leave this with my honourable friends. I think we have just one copy here today, but we will get some more. I will leave that with my honourable friend from The Pas.

We have 10 ,000 of those that we are going to be distributing, so that all the childr en will have access to that. Let me just take another step on that. You will recall the very tragic suicide and murder incident with the father involved and the childr en last summe r, last June.

The Mental Health Division worked very, very quickly with the school division and with parents and childr en in that area to int ervene very rapidly in terms of the trauma and the stress that those people went through experiencing that kind of a traumatic and very, very horrible situation in their neigh bourhood in volving friends and childr en they knew and friends they knew. I think that kind of rapid in tervention and rapid assistance was signif icant in helping that incident to not become a major cause of trauma and other outcomes that one might normally expect.

It is from that, that this colouring book has been developed to try to relie ve the trauma from the forest fires. In terms of the suicide rate that my honourable friend asked, we recognize that as an issue, because in 15- to 19-year-old Natives the rate apparently is 11 times higher and that is a tragedy . We have had some preven tion and post-int erven tion sessions on reserves such as Gods Lake Narrows and in Winnip eg through Rossbrook House.

We are working with Suicide Prevention Intervention Network, the acronym is SPIN, and that inclu des childr en's mental health, Native Indian health workers and school division personnel to try to provide some int ervention, some counselling, some preven tative work, to try to very much lessen tha t sign ificantly higher suicide rate among Native youth. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to see that initia tive has been taken with the colouring book, because I was in touch with qu ite a few of the Na tive organ izations, not only here in Winn ipeg but also in the Town of The Pas.

I was pleased with the amount of support there was out there from the communi ty, not only from the different church communit ies in the City of Winnip eg who helped accommoda te the youth who were feeling a lot of stress because of being moved from their home, but also in the Town of The Pas, not only the church organizations but the volunteers were a tremendous help to help the people cope with the stress of the fire.

I am pleased that the Government has taken that in itiativ e and is helping them cope further with that, because I know tha t just because the fire is over now the trauma may follow them for a while after the fact. I am just wondering, what initia tive has the department taken to work with the schools to deliver some programs to deal with the youth who are in that age bracket, where you say the rates of suicide are much hig her than in other areas. * (16 00) Mr. Orchard: You are not specifically referring to just Natives, you are talking youths across Manitoba. Mr. Harapiak: That is correct. Mr.

Orchard: SPIN has a high degree of involvement with Natives. As a matter of fact, there is a Native Youth Suicide Conference that has started today and is on today, tomorrow and Saturda y. It is sponsored by SPIN, the Suicide Preven tion Intervention Network. Judge Sinclair is the keynote speaker at this conference, which as I say started today. My honourable friend might recall the initia tive tha t was one of the six as a result of the reorganization of Mental Health and the reform of the Mental Health Division and activities in the mini stry.

One of those ini tia tives was funding for a youth suicide information centre. That centre was operational as of September 16 of this year and already has made 10 presentations to 17 4 participants. The participants include teachers to get to my honourable frie nd's question about what work is being done in the schools-regional mental health councils, interagency councils, youth social workers.

Now the focuses, as I und erstand it conceptual ly, that we are trying to build into work with the teachers is recog nition of wha t the sym ptoms of suicide contemplation are, so they do not go unr ecognized, so that again, you can hopefully recognize trouble before it becomes very, very serious and intervene in a positive way through counselling and other mechanisms that are in place in the school, in terms of school counselling and assistance for students. As part of the eval uation of the Youth Suicide In formation Centre we are doing an eva luation component.

So both before and after participants have been in volved with the presenta tions, we ha ve questionnaires to assess wheth er, in fact, they have gained an in creased knowledge of the issue of youth suicide and how it might be prevented. Mr. Harapiak: Is there any special initia tive being taken with the Frontier schools who deal primarily with Native childr en? Mr. Orchard: It is ind icated to me that our Thompson mental health worker is doing just that with Frontier School Division. 2933

Thursday, November 16, 19 89 Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Chairman, there was always an extremely heavy work load on mental health workers in the North, because of the, as the Mini ster has mentioned, hi gher percentage of suicides in tha t popula tion. Also, I think another di fficulty is the remoteness of the areas where it is very difficult for staff to get around and travel.

There has been a very high turn over of staff in northern Manitoba, and I guess, that adds difficulty of attract ing professionals to some of the communities not that the communi ties do not have much to offer because, having lived in The Pas, I think sometimes there is a greater quality of life in northern Manitoba than there is in the city. I guess it depends what a person is looking for. When someone from the urban part of the province has not experienced that they hesitate to go to northern Manitoba.

I am wondering if you have a full complement of staff now in The Pas or are you, at this time, recruiting people to fill the positions. Mr. Orchard: We had vacancies in the children's mental health positions in both The Pas and Flin Flon, but we have just recently hired into both of those positions. Mr. Harapiak: There is one other area that I wanted to address and that is dealing with homes, mental health homes. I am wondering if this would be the appropriate place to addr ess it or- Mr. Orchard: Sir , I missed the issue here. Mr. Harapiak: Mental health homes, residencies. Mr.

Orchard: If it is the will of the comm ittee, why do we not deal with all questions in Mental Health, and we will just pass it at the end of the discussion. Would that be fair enough? Mr. Cheema: I think we want to go step by step otherwise we are going to miss some of the im portant things we want to ask on the policy. That is why my questions were-let us stick to the Mental He alth Admin istration not anyth ing else. Mr. Orchard: If there are no more questions on Mental Health Admi nistra tion- Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass; 4.(a)

(2) Other Expendit ures $137,900-p ass. 4.(

b) Chief Provincial Psychiatrist: provides expert psychiatric consultation rega rding all elements of mental health practice, program ming, policy and legislation.

(1) Salaries $1 42, 100-the Member for Kildonan. (Mr. Edward He lwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Cheema: Can the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) tell us- because last year the position was this person who was working as Chief Provincial Psychiatrist was working on a part-time basis-is this a full-time position now? Mr. Orchard: The Chief Provincial Psychiatrist is on contract, and it is a half-time position with, I think, probably close to full-time commitment. Mr. Cheema: Can the Min ister of Health confirm that Dr. Rodgers is the psychiatrist who is working as Chief Provincial Psychiatrist? Mr.

Orchard: Yes. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, before I go onto my question I just want to express my appreciation for Dr. Rodgers' commitment and his dedication to the profession. As the Minis ter had ind icated, he is working half-time, but I think he is putting more than his share in. He has been very co-operative to us irrespectiv e of the Party lines or anything. I do not know which Party he belongs to, but certa inly he has been very helpful for any information. Mr. Orchard: I appreciate my honourable friend's obser

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-72
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 72.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9823c7f7132813ffb5e8d4cb3ffb329ab7320aac

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